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Hello and welcome to the second episode of Success Unscripted.
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If you had a chance to tune into the first episode, thank you so much.
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And thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for everybody who reached out with supportive
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comments and feedback.
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This has been a really fun project and I'm glad you guys are enjoying it too.
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I did want to give you a heads up that this episode is going to be a little bit different
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for several reasons.
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I recorded it back in August with my dear, dear friend, Nikki Powell.
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And as we often do in our conversations, we start to venture into some pretty heavy topics.
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I actually find it to be overall pretty hilarious and the final message is quite uplifting.
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But I did want to give you a heads up that we talk about anxiety, we talk about depression,
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we even talk about suicide.
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So if that's not something that you want to be thinking about right now, you know, just
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turn that bad boy off.
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We also talk about family.
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So I feel it's important for me to mention that in the two months since recording this
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episode, both Mickey's mother and oldest brother have passed away.
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Thankfully not from suicide, but both were very unexpected within days of each other.
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And it's been pretty devastating.
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I'm actually recording this introduction on Thanksgiving weekend, which is incredibly
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fitting because Mickey, I am so, so grateful to have you in my life.
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The other thing that's a little bit different about this episode is that I decided to enjoy
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some wine while we chatted.
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And even stone cold sober, I have to really try not to slur my words.
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So you'll probably be able to tell that I get a little bit toasty towards the end.
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And it's not my best look.
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I'm a little bit embarrassed about it.
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But fuck it.
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I'm just going to keep reminding myself something that I heard Sophia Bush say, which is that
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you are allowed to be a masterpiece and a work in progress simultaneously.
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And so with that, I invite you to sit back, grab a glass of wine or a cup of tea or nothing
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at all, and enjoy an intimate conversation between two very good friends who are just
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doing the best that they can.
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Enjoy.
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Hello.
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Hello.
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Hello.
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Can you hear me now?
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There you are.
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Fantastic.
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Well, thank you.
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Gosh, I'm not as nervous as I was when we did the webinar.
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Well, there's not 60 people staring at you.
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Right.
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Well, I couldn't even see them.
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You know they're there.
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So I'm super stoked for you to be, technically you're my second guest because you know what
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happened yesterday.
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I don't.
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So I had Elise, who's like, I'm sure I've mentioned her.
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She's VP of success and support at Gorgias.
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And I placed her as a manager of activation and she's just gotten promoted and promoted
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and promoted.
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She's a huge team.
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So yeah, I took an hour of her time.
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And then when I went to stop the recording, I didn't record any of it.
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So that's why I'm doing this with friends to start because you know, she's doing it
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again with me next week.
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Yeah.
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But no, I'm excited for today because I admire you a lot, both personally and professionally.
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And I know that you haven't always had it easy.
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And like me, you've, you know, struggled with some mental health stuff and ups and downs
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and yada yada.
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So definitely want to talk about some customer success stuff, but I want to get into the
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good stuff with you.
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Sounds good.
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Because I know you'll go there.
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But no, it's been so fucking cool to watch you blossom this year.
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Like I'm like, I'm like, Hey, I know him.
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Like you were just killing it.
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And you become such an expert on customer success and AI.
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And you're just working your tush off and doing some really, really, really cool things.
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So yeah, want to want to kind of get into your background.
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I also want to talk about like, you know, some of those times when you weren't necessarily
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on top of the world.
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And kind of how to get out of them and all that, because I think that's, that's part
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of helping other people find their own path, but also like feel supported when they are
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down and out.
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Like everybody's been there.
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And especially now, like everyone, except for you, pretty much is there right now.
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But maybe you are in some other ways.
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I don't know.
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I don't want to put words in your mouth.
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So yeah, so tell me, tell me what you do right now.
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I know, but tell them.
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Yeah.
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So right now, I'm the head of go to market at update AI.
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We're a very young company trying to do lots of things, but mainly we're trying to make
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sure that customer success is finally at the center of driving organizations forward.
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We refer to as being the heart of the organization.
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And we mean that kind of in the literal sense of like pumping blood to the organs and the
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limbs.
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We do that using artificial intelligence, like chat GPT, as well as some of our own
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data science and just a totally zealot focus on customer success, which is my background.
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I've spent last 10 years in customer success and it's just such an underserved community
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and function and I'm sick of it.
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So I'm going to change it.
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You are changing it.
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And yeah, not only is it underserved, but it's also so nuanced.
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Like that's what I love about being customer success recruiter is like, it's not, it's
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not one size fits all.
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Not that it's that way for like sales or marketing or any other role, but like it's especially
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true in customer success that like the playbooks are different.
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The cadences are different.
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The type of people you need to hire are different.
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Like it's just depending on all the different factors of like how big are your customers,
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what industry are they in and all these different things.
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So it's just fun to like you get to be more creative with it and have really interesting
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conversations with success leaders, which I know you're doing all the time.
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So how did you find yourself in customer success?
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Yeah, I found myself in customer success because I had some sales skills.
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Okay.
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So I didn't go to college.
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I moved to San Francisco in 2009.
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I started working at AT&T in retail right across from the ballpark and I'm a big, yeah,
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go ahead.
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Did I tell you that my first job was in retail at the Apple store?
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure that we, we covered that when we first or second met.
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Well, that was like 20 million conversations ago.
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I don't remember that.
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But back when it was AT&T park, what is it now?
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Oracle?
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It'll always be Pac-Bell to me.
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Wow.
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Yeah, you're throwing it way back to the beginning.
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Hey, born and raised.
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I'm born and raised in California.
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Yeah.
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So I started working across the street from the ballpark in 2009, which was awesome because
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I'm a big Giants fan.
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Baseball was my, my first real like sports love.
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So what you're wearing?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I like it.
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The black on black.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So that was awesome.
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Like that, you know, I was single, new to San Francisco, got a decent job and you know,
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I'm working down by the ballpark and I'm loving the whole Giants thing.
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But then I was starting to get good at my job.
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I was starting to deal with a lot of business customers and then just people living down
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by the ballpark.
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And you know who was living and working down by the ballpark in 2009?
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Besides homeless people.
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Yeah.
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Besides homeless people.
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It was a lot of startups.
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Right.
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Startups that people hadn't heard of at the time, like Square or Dropbox.
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Yeah.
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Or Yammer.
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I remember, can I interject?
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Yeah.
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I remember back in, it must've been in seventh grade.
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So this was like 2001, 2002 and my dad's in commercial real estate and he's driving me
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around driving me to a Bat Mitzvah.
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And this was before like Twitter moved in and all these companies moved in and he started
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pointing out these buildings that they then moved into.
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And he said, you know, Sarah, this is like, like this is about to blow up.
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This is the tech scene.
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And this was before the open concept exposed rafters.
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And he told me, he was like, these companies are buying these buildings and they're all
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going to sit in the same room and it's going to be this industrial feel.
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And like, and just you watch and it's, it's just so cool because now, well, and now we're
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going through another evolution of not going to work at all.
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But like, you know, when I was at Zenefits and all the different tech startups, like
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that was just how it was.
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But it's, it's funny being there during those inflection points.
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Yeah.
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Well, yeah, it's a total shift, right?
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But yeah, so long story short, I was at AT&T for nearly three years and I saw, you know,
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I saw this like tech scene and I was like, this seems like something I should be involved
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in.
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I also just kind of came to the realization I'm never going back to school.
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And that's partially because I love to learn and I hate school, you know, reconcile that
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some, you know, somebody that's smarter than me, please tell me why that is.
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Because I'm, I've thought about it a lot.
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Well, another day.
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So I went and got a job as an SDR at a company called Demand Force.
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That's where you met Jo-Nel.
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Yes.
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Well, actually, I don't know if I even actually met Jo-Nel.
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That's the funny thing.
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You seem to think that you know each other.
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She's going to be on this too.
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It's because we know people that like we have similar groups that we know.
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Well, probably like in Salesforce, you saw each other, you know.
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Yeah, Salesforce emails, but there was multiple floors.
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We had like four or five floors in a building.
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I remember I interviewed there before I joined Zenefits, I think.
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There you go.
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Yeah.
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So yeah, like I became an SDR.
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It was so hard.
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Did you like the phone calling?
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I mean, some people, yeah, most people don't.
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I have met people that like love it, which is...
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No, yeah, those people.
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I've met lots of those people.
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I saw lots of people do really, really well.
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And I started to learn what I was good at and what I wasn't good at and what I liked
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and what I didn't like.
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And I'm good at learning new things, learning them fast and applying them fast.
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Hence this whole chat GPT thing.
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But I just, I really did not like being told no 98 times out of a hundred calls.
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Yeah.
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97 on a good day.
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But demand force had just been bought by Intuit.
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It was a step in the door.
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I knew I wanted to be in tech, but I didn't know anything more than that.
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Yeah.
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And I got promoted to be an account executive and quickly realized that that wasn't really
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for me.
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And leadership there agreed to.
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Why?
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Not a closer?
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I'm just, yeah, like I wasn't like, I didn't have the fortitude at the time to really stick
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it out.
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Yeah.
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Because like not only do you have to grind like an SDR, but you also have to do all the
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things you got to do to close.
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Yeah.
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And the quotes and the follow ups and the timelines and the.
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Yeah.
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So it didn't really find my place.
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My wife and I actually, oh, she, my girlfriend at the time, now wife.
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Did you meet in San Francisco?
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And we almost moved to Sacramento because we have family and friends out there, but
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she got a job right out of college for a company called fit mob, which was later acquired by
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class pass.
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And so we decided to stick around, but I had already put in my notice at demand force and
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I was like, I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to do the cold calling anymore.
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So I was like, I got to go find another job.
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So I applied for a company called five stars for a client retention specialist that I seemed
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qualified for.
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And the hiring manager, Gracie, she had me cold call in the interview.
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Gracie for a CS role.
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Well not cold call.
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Sorry.
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She had me call a customer and talk to a customer in the interview.
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I think she wanted to make sure.
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I mean, that's it's almost better than like a role play though.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I did find, I hate.
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Yeah, they're tough.
249
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:38,920
Yeah.
250
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:39,920
It's really hard.
251
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,480
But yeah, I did find I got the job.
252
00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:48,240
I started at five stars, May 27th, 2014 as a client retention specialist.
253
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The first one.
254
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,520
How do you remember that date?
255
00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:52,520
How do I remember that date?
256
00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:53,520
I don't know.
257
00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,960
It just kind of stuck with me.
258
00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:00,800
But three days later I was on the phone with five stars customers trying to make sure they're
259
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,680
successful and not canceling.
260
00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:10,480
And we were gearing up to raise a series B. So we were trying to get a handle on churn.
261
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,240
Did it feel meaningfully different right away or like?
262
00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:15,240
Yeah.
263
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:20,480
I mean, one of the ways that it felt different immediately is there were some data for me
264
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:25,920
to, to understand how they're using this tool that they already purchased.
265
00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:26,920
Okay.
266
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,680
And what is five stars do?
267
00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:36,600
Five stars is a loyalty and now payments processing tool for retail small businesses in the U.S.
268
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,600
and Canada.
269
00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,820
Okay.
270
00:14:40,820 --> 00:14:44,840
And they came out of Y Combinator in 2011.
271
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:54,640
And that's where I really cut my teeth in customer success, but also Gracie and the other
272
00:14:54,640 --> 00:15:01,080
leaders there were really phenomenal in regards to allowing you to, to get your hands dirty
273
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:02,080
and lots of things.
274
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:03,080
Yeah.
275
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:08,840
So I taught myself really advanced Salesforce reporting.
276
00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,960
And then of course, just like got more into the operational side.
277
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:17,200
And then I tried to kind of get into training and enablement and I realized, okay, I know
278
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,320
enough to understand how this works, but this isn't really what I love.
279
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,160
Like, I don't really love instructional design.
280
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,240
You love school so much.
281
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:28,240
Yeah.
282
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:33,480
And yeah, so like I went on that ride and actually I got lit.
283
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:38,720
I got laid off from, from five stars as a part of a large riff at the very beginning
284
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:39,720
of 2017.
285
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:40,720
Okay.
286
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:41,720
How did that feel?
287
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:48,840
Actually not as, that one didn't hurt as, as bad as other ones that I've been a part
288
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:50,480
of.
289
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:57,440
And that's partially because I, I knew it wasn't about me.
290
00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:58,440
Right.
291
00:15:58,440 --> 00:15:59,440
Right.
292
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,320
Cause I knew where five stars was at the time.
293
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:10,040
I had an understanding of the needs of the business and my boss at the time, gentlemen
294
00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:14,080
by the name of Micah, who is, I still consider a friend and mentor.
295
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:15,080
He's the one that let me go.
296
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,120
We still laugh about it.
297
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,320
Well, it must have sucked for him.
298
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:20,320
Yeah.
299
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,280
He, no, yeah, he didn't, he, it wasn't, he didn't find any joy in it.
300
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:30,280
But yeah, so like I got laid off and then it's like, well, what do I do now?
301
00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,240
We knew we were going to move to Orange County from San Francisco now.
302
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,560
And at that time for anybody that remembers in 20 early 2017, there wasn't a lot of remote
303
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:38,560
jobs.
304
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:39,560
Right.
305
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:48,000
So I couldn't really find remote work and then fast forward like four months after getting
306
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,320
laid off, Gracie needed somebody on her team.
307
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,120
So I went back into my old role.
308
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,480
You went back to five stars.
309
00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,560
I went back to five stars.
310
00:16:58,560 --> 00:16:59,880
Okay.
311
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:08,400
And that's when I got more into operations, leadership, program management, and that kind
312
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:13,640
of like really accelerated my career down to this like customer success operations path.
313
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:15,040
Are you managing people there?
314
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,040
I did manage people for a time there.
315
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:18,040
Yeah.
316
00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,000
And that was when I realized like leadership is hard.
317
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,000
It's obviously it's a different beast.
318
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:24,000
Yes.
319
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:25,560
Yes, it is.
320
00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,880
And I really want to be focused on driving like impact in the business from an operational
321
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:30,880
standpoint.
322
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:31,880
Yeah.
323
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:37,460
And I, I was kind of figuring out my groove was working cross-functionally with people
324
00:17:37,460 --> 00:17:38,720
to do that.
325
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:47,000
And then I found an opportunity at Zora to start and be the only manager of customer
326
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,000
success strategy and operations.
327
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,040
And then, you know, fast forward, I ended up at update AI.
328
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,320
I'm fast forwarding over some painful parts.
329
00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,920
You want to fast forward over the painful parts?
330
00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:02,080
We can talk about the painful parts.
331
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:10,760
Yeah, so I left Zora for an opportunity at a company that I will not name because it
332
00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:12,800
was not a pleasant experience.
333
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:13,800
Okay.
334
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:14,800
Fair enough.
335
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:20,000
Yeah, it just, it, I was only there for a few short months.
336
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:26,480
I literally like took the job and then a very, very difficult situation came up in our family.
337
00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:32,920
And I did not have the support of my leader.
338
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:39,200
This leader, when I got hired, I made sure that they knew I have a daughter.
339
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,760
I'm not available at six or seven AM.
340
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:42,760
Right.
341
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,960
If I can on occasion, I will because it was a global company.
342
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:47,960
Right.
343
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:48,960
And I've done that before.
344
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:49,960
Okay.
345
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:50,960
So this is not an early stage startup.
346
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:52,360
This is a large global.
347
00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:54,400
Larger, larger global company.
348
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,920
But like broadly speaking, I'm not available.
349
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,560
I'm taking care of my daughter in the mornings.
350
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,520
I'm getting her where she needs to go.
351
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:05,520
And they're like, cool.
352
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,320
Yeah, no problem.
353
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:12,980
Fast forward a couple of months, it became a problem because we had folks in time zones
354
00:19:12,980 --> 00:19:17,720
that me being on the West coast, they could only really work with me if I had a meeting
355
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:27,800
at five or six, maybe seven AM in the morning.
356
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:38,200
And so, so your job was in it in jeopardy because you couldn't take five AM calls.
357
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:39,700
Yes.
358
00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:48,360
And it came to a head over a really short period of time that led to them letting me
359
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:52,120
go.
360
00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:56,080
And by short period of time, I mean like 10 days.
361
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,440
So I was there for a couple of months.
362
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,620
I had set that expectation.
363
00:20:01,620 --> 00:20:06,200
It became a problem in a very short period of time.
364
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,200
And then they let me go.
365
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:10,200
And I was pissed.
366
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:11,200
Yeah.
367
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,000
I mean, as you should be.
368
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:20,440
I mean, I as a recruiter, like obviously my clients are the ones that pay me.
369
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:25,720
I don't know if that's obvious, but my clients pay me.
370
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,360
They pay me a lot when I have them.
371
00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:31,360
Anybody listening?
372
00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:44,440
I just started, but yeah, I mean, I always, man, I know, I will never work for anybody
373
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:53,520
ever again for a lot of reasons, but I know what it's like for something, for a job not
374
00:20:53,520 --> 00:21:03,120
to work out, it impacts that candidate slash employee far more deeply than it does the
375
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:04,120
client.
376
00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:08,080
Like, yes, okay, you might've paid me, you might've trained them, whatever.
377
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:14,680
But like when my clients don't get even like from the beginning of like how much my candidates
378
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,800
are putting in from like an interview perspective, like they're not getting time off of their
379
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,680
job if they're employed to interview.
380
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:26,480
Obviously you're getting paid to interview them and they're changing that.
381
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:32,120
So it really, anyway, I find myself, even though my candidates don't pay me, I find
382
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:39,720
myself always getting in their corner a little bit more than my clients most of the time.
383
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,720
And that just, that makes me angry for you.
384
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:43,720
Yeah.
385
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,960
Oh, it's a power dynamic for sure.
386
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:52,040
The person that is applying does not have the power in the relationship.
387
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:53,040
Yeah.
388
00:21:53,040 --> 00:22:01,360
I mean, in a very strong candidate market, they can, they're higher level, but like,
389
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:08,520
but no, once you, once you sign the deal, it's like what the company says goes.
390
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:14,160
It's all about the bottom line as it should be in a business to a certain extent, you
391
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,240
are responsible to your shareholders and the board and all of these things and you have
392
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:24,080
to, but there's a way, there's a way to do it with your employees in mind.
393
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,960
And that's why I was a little bit surprised when you said that it would have a larger
394
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:35,040
global company because well, and my, my closest experience with a large company is Salesforce
395
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:42,560
because Dan, my husband has worked there for six years and he, I'll never forget when he
396
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,560
got shingles.
397
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:45,560
He could have died.
398
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:46,720
Like it got into his eye.
399
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:51,040
They didn't diagnose it for weeks and he looked like the elephant man.
400
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,920
Like I would, I would leave the house to cry because I didn't want to cry in front of him
401
00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:01,920
and I was giving him all these, like the valcyclovir and all these different drugs at different
402
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:02,920
times.
403
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,440
And then I was also trying to get him like stoned out of his mind on gummies so that
404
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,320
like he just wouldn't remember.
405
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:08,320
Yeah.
406
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,040
And, and Salesforce was like, yeah, take care of it.
407
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,320
Like you do you.
408
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:15,320
And they, and they did.
409
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:20,640
And they, and they wrapped their arms around him and they supported him through it.
410
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:26,680
And the same thing when his dad died recently and you know, he had a long paternity leave
411
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:27,680
anyway.
412
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:33,560
So, um, but I, I guess I would expect that from an early stage startup because you don't
413
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,920
have, always have the resources to cover for somebody if, but in your case you set the
414
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:39,920
right expectations.
415
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:45,400
So like there's no excuse in your case, but it's an interesting thing.
416
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:53,200
I think as people are deciding if they want to go to a larger company or a startup, um,
417
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,400
you know, there are generalities you can make between both.
418
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:02,560
And I would have expected that sort of behavior more from a startup than a larger company.
419
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,680
Yeah.
420
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,560
You know, reflecting back on it, I think the simplest answers are the right one.
421
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:14,560
The, the person and the company and the culture, which is just really hard to assess from the
422
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:15,560
outside.
423
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:16,560
Yeah.
424
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,760
And knowing what I know now, I would not suggest that company.
425
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:29,520
And I would tell, I would tell folks like this company is pretty ruthless and maybe
426
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:30,800
not completely honest.
427
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:31,800
Yeah.
428
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,920
And like they, you know, you, I mean you, you laid your cards out on the table, right?
429
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,800
I mean you said like, I have a, I have a young daughter, these are the hours I'm not going
430
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:42,840
to be available.
431
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,720
And you have that conversation either when you took the job or early on.
432
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:47,720
Yeah.
433
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,920
And they said, yeah, that's fine.
434
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:50,920
Yeah.
435
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:56,560
And, well, and it's just not a normal expectation that you will be available at five, six, seven
436
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:57,560
AM.
437
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:58,560
Right.
438
00:24:58,560 --> 00:24:59,560
Yeah.
439
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:00,560
Yeah.
440
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:01,560
Yeah.
441
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:02,560
Yeah.
442
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:03,560
Yeah.
443
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:04,560
Yeah.
444
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:05,560
Yeah.
445
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:06,560
And like I would, I think I would feel differently if it was like, you know, we tried to work
446
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:11,000
with you and you did, but like the moment it became a problem, their response was to
447
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,200
let me go.
448
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:22,120
So you said how, when five stars had that layoff that you, you felt okay about it because
449
00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:26,000
first of all, it was this guy that you respected, that you trusted, that was in your, you knew
450
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,320
was in your corner.
451
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:28,320
Yeah.
452
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:33,440
But you also knew the circumstances of the company and you knew it wasn't your fault.
453
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,000
Yeah.
454
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:42,800
So how did you feel in this situation?
455
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:52,840
Besides angry, hurt and embarrassed, hurt because I left, I left a good position at
456
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:58,960
Zora because I felt like this was an even better opportunity and more in line with my
457
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,560
values because they were, they were not a public company.
458
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:08,880
Zora was a public company and I actually did want to go work for a startup.
459
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,280
And they moved really fast and they were super excited and, and they're selling this vision
460
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,700
and then they pull it off from under me so fast.
461
00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:22,240
And unless you're like going bankrupt, which they weren't because they had just raised
462
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:28,160
a bunch of money and they spent a crap ton of money on their sales kickoff over $10 million
463
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:29,160
is the word.
464
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:30,160
Oh yeah.
465
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:31,160
Yeah.
466
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,160
Yeah.
467
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,960
And then I was like, this is the whole thing.
468
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:39,820
So I'm just like, that's, that's the level of like, we're going to do what's best for
469
00:26:39,820 --> 00:26:43,280
us to the extreme that I just don't respect.
470
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:44,280
Right.
471
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:49,400
And, and so in hindsight, it's obvious that that wasn't you.
472
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:50,400
Yeah.
473
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:57,480
But in the moment, yeah, of course, like thinking like, Oh, well, did I mess this up?
474
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:58,920
You know, could I have seen this?
475
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:00,640
How could I have played this differently?
476
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,160
Did you start to spiral a little bit where you're falling asleep and you're like, could
477
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:05,160
I have done this differently?
478
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,120
And I remember this conversation and not as bad as the next one.
479
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:10,120
Oh, okay.
480
00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:11,120
All right.
481
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:14,760
Not that I like hearing you in pain, but I also know that there's a light at the end
482
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,360
of the tunnel, at least where we are now, but yeah.
483
00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:21,240
So I lost that job.
484
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:27,040
Luckily I found another job pretty quick and it was at a company that my brother worked
485
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:28,040
at.
486
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:29,040
Okay.
487
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:30,040
Okay.
488
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:31,040
So I was like, Oh, I'm going to get to work.
489
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:32,040
And I was so excited.
490
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:33,040
It was in a space.
491
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,760
I kind of understood a product that works again.
492
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:37,760
I'm not going to name names.
493
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:38,760
Yeah.
494
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:39,760
Yeah.
495
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:40,760
Yeah.
496
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,560
And I was like, I'm going to get to work like around my brother, virtually speaking.
497
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:44,560
Yeah.
498
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:45,560
One of my brothers.
499
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:46,560
I have three brothers.
500
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,480
So I was like, I was bought in.
501
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,920
Is this the least you want or the most?
502
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,200
Well, like our parents are hippies.
503
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,320
So like we're, we all have it in us.
504
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:56,320
Okay.
505
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:57,320
Yeah.
506
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,280
But yes, this is the one, this is the one if, if by saying hippie, you mean something
507
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:02,280
else.
508
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:03,280
Yes.
509
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:04,280
Okay.
510
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:05,280
Yeah.
511
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,160
So you know how you kind of like try to set your mindset for things.
512
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,080
So I went into this one, like I'm going for it.
513
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:13,480
I'm going to be here for a long time.
514
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,000
I'm not going to jump in a year.
515
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,000
Yup.
516
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:17,000
Yup.
517
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,000
Yeah.
518
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,920
I was like, I'm going to be here like as long as my brother's here.
519
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,120
This is my forever home.
520
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:22,520
I'm going to be here for five years.
521
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:23,520
Yeah, exactly.
522
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:24,520
I was thinking like five years.
523
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:30,360
I was like, I'm going to be like a senior director, maybe a VP if I'm lucky.
524
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:31,360
This is the one.
525
00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:32,360
Yeah.
526
00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:34,880
And if it, you know, and if there's a good exit and I make some money, cool.
527
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:40,800
But like I was actually bought in to like the ride, the vision and the team.
528
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:41,800
Yeah.
529
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:42,800
Okay.
530
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,120
So, so far so good.
531
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,120
Yeah.
532
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:46,680
It did not work out that way.
533
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:53,680
So long story short, some folks there thought that I wasn't the right fit for that role.
534
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:58,000
And it was a customer success operations role.
535
00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,000
The first one.
536
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:00,000
Okay.
537
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,000
Is this a startup?
538
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,000
It is a startup.
539
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,000
Mid-stage startup probably.
540
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,000
Yeah, like B, B, C.
541
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:05,000
That makes sense.
542
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,000
Yeah.
543
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:15,920
And you know, I'm trying not to place a lot of blame on them necessarily, even though
544
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:21,720
this hurts, but it became apparent to me that they were actually looking for somebody who
545
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,080
was much more analyst heavy.
546
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:26,480
Okay.
547
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,680
Or like somebody who came from McKinsey or.
548
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:30,680
Right.
549
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:31,680
PwC or.
550
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:32,680
Yes.
551
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,080
And I bet you there was somebody in leadership that came from there and was like, why didn't
552
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,520
we hire somebody from my.
553
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:40,520
Yeah.
554
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:49,600
So the VPI reported into had come from Bain and to her credit, she did give coaching and
555
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,440
this wasn't as quick as the other one.
556
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:53,440
Okay.
557
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:59,520
But what was really frustrating for me is I really understood their go to market, their
558
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:06,040
customer, because it was very similar to five stars and they weren't leaning on me at all
559
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,920
for that side of my skillset.
560
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:15,280
And after a while, it got to the point where they put me on a, they wanted to put me on
561
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:16,280
a plan.
562
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,280
A PIP, performance improvement plan.
563
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:20,280
Yeah.
564
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,480
Were you not, were you missing metrics or like, what was the.
565
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,540
It was, I mean, there, there weren't metrics, right?
566
00:30:27,540 --> 00:30:28,540
It was.
567
00:30:28,540 --> 00:30:29,540
It was all subjective.
568
00:30:29,540 --> 00:30:30,540
It's all subjective.
569
00:30:30,540 --> 00:30:35,280
They put you on a PIP, a subjective PIP with subjective goals.
570
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,280
Okay.
571
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,380
I know, but like it's kind of hard in that role, right?
572
00:30:40,380 --> 00:30:45,160
Because like to drive changes in numbers in an operations role kind of by definition takes
573
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:46,160
a long time.
574
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,560
So you kind of have to rely on the work as a measure.
575
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:50,560
Okay.
576
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:51,560
I know.
577
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:56,640
I don't hold it against them because it's tough in that regard, but what was really tough
578
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:06,760
is they present this PIP and at the same time they say, Hey, we don't actually think you're
579
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,180
the right fit for this role.
580
00:31:08,180 --> 00:31:12,840
We think that it's unlikely that you're going to be able to successfully get through this
581
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:13,980
PIP.
582
00:31:13,980 --> 00:31:23,280
And even if you do, we don't think it's sustainable.
583
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,040
So wow.
584
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:33,440
Do you think, I mean, well, I was already in my head thinking like, well, and not because
585
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,660
I don't know this woman and it seems like she, you know, probably did the best that
586
00:31:37,660 --> 00:31:39,640
she could and had her heart in the right place.
587
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,960
But like she, she handled that part better than the previous one for sure.
588
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:51,040
But probably, you know, she's probably highly educated.
589
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,040
You'd have to be to be from game.
590
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,040
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
591
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,040
Yeah.
592
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:56,480
She, yeah, she's a smart lady.
593
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,120
Well, I'm sure she was, but that isn't synonymous with highly educated.
594
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:10,120
But do you ever wonder if she saw that you didn't go to college and held that against
595
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:11,120
you?
596
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:12,720
Or am I just creating a complex that doesn't?
597
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,760
Yeah, I don't, I don't think that was the case.
598
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:15,760
You don't think it was.
599
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:16,760
Okay.
600
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:17,760
Yeah, I don't know.
601
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,080
I think it was more like she has a model of how things should be done and I wasn't fitting
602
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:21,720
that model, whether that's right or wrong.
603
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,880
I'm not, I'm not actually debating.
604
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,320
And sometimes it is hard to know who you need to hire until you make that mistake.
605
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,560
But yeah, you were caught in the crossfire.
606
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:31,560
Yeah.
607
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,320
And they didn't want or value what I actually thought I brought to the table, which wasn't
608
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:43,600
like this guy is going to run regression analysis and come up with like a bunch of tableau reports
609
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:44,600
to run our business.
610
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:49,440
I'm like, no, no, no, I'm more of like a well-rounded, I understand how to deal with customers.
611
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:50,840
I understand some of the data.
612
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,440
I understand the systems.
613
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,040
I understand how they work together.
614
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,400
I understand how to work cross-functionally.
615
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,600
That's what I thought I was being hired for.
616
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,000
And it turns out that what they really wanted was like somebody from management consulting
617
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:08,040
to come in and just be like operational, operational, operational, operational.
618
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:16,360
So they gave me an option of going on the PIP or taking a severance and I took the severance.
619
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,200
Well yeah, when they present it like that.
620
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,320
Well yeah, I actually was going to try to like, I knew that they were going to present
621
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,620
a PIP and in my mind I was like, I'm going to get through it and execute and be fine.
622
00:33:26,620 --> 00:33:27,800
And then they presented it like that.
623
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,720
And I'm like, yeah, if no one's rooting for you, how the fuck are you supposed to?
624
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,920
Yeah, I was like, they don't actually expect.
625
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:34,920
Yeah.
626
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:41,120
So after that happened, that triggered an episode of depression that I've never experienced
627
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:42,120
before.
628
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:50,080
Like, I'd say at the lowest points of my life, on a scale of one through 10, maybe a four
629
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:51,880
or five.
630
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:59,360
And then I was like, I was like a three, like for a few months.
631
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:08,160
And it was just like, it was like every, like the spiraling, that was like, that was the
632
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:09,160
worst.
633
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,600
That was the worst time of my entire life.
634
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:18,100
And I did want to actually ask you about this is like, and not that they, and they're absolutely
635
00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:24,640
interconnected, codependent anxiety and depression.
636
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,360
For me, my anxiety always comes first.
637
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:34,720
And it's like, when the, when the wheels are turning and like, I can't get out of that
638
00:34:34,720 --> 00:34:39,600
spiral and I've done that for so long, then I get into depression and then it's just like
639
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,080
almost like a wasteland.
640
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,400
And it's like, I can't, I can't get out of bed.
641
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:53,600
I can't, and it's been, it's been since 2017, probably that I was like truly depressed and
642
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,240
there's no need to make the distinction, I guess.
643
00:34:56,240 --> 00:35:01,960
But for me, I do have that strong distinction, probably because it helps me track where I
644
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:02,960
am.
645
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:03,960
Yeah.
646
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:04,960
You know?
647
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:10,280
But what did, I mean, what did that look like for you?
648
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:17,560
Well, I like really struggled to do anything.
649
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:22,800
Like there were days where like all I could really do and like, I don't really play video
650
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:23,800
games a lot anymore.
651
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,920
But like there were days where like all I could do was play video games for a few hours
652
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,680
and try my best to keep up with like stuff around the house.
653
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,020
Yeah, there you go.
654
00:35:35,020 --> 00:35:38,520
And I just like, I wasn't enjoying time with my daughter.
655
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,280
Yeah, how old was Logan?
656
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:42,280
So this was just last year.
657
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,120
So she was like, she had just turned four.
658
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,360
Oh yeah, it was recent wasn't it?
659
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:47,360
Yeah.
660
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,000
This was right before update AI.
661
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,000
That's so crazy.
662
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,000
Yeah.
663
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:52,000
That's so crazy.
664
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:57,280
And it was, it was so like, so my wife and I, we do, we do marriage counseling, we have
665
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:03,280
for years and we, like our marriage counselor is great.
666
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,080
And she was like, you need to go see a psychiatrist.
667
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:09,200
Like this isn't therapy.
668
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:18,240
This is, this is psychiatry and likely a prescription like, like SSRIs antidepressants.
669
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:19,240
There's nothing wrong with that.
670
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:21,240
Well, yeah, but that's hard to hear.
671
00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:26,640
Well yeah, like, and, but I like, you know, we've all struggled, or I shouldn't say we
672
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:34,960
all, a lot of us have struggled with suicidal thoughts and it was really bad.
673
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,520
I wasn't going as far, cause like luckily when I think about like leaving my family,
674
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:44,680
leaving Logan, like that is strong enough to like help me stay away from the darkest
675
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:45,680
of thoughts.
676
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:51,320
But I had many thoughts of like, man, this would all go away if I,
677
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,000
Oh honey, I've been there.
678
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,000
I've been there.
679
00:36:54,000 --> 00:37:00,760
And I, yeah, I wondered if we were going to go there today and, and was reflecting a lot.
680
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,520
And I mean, I think it's so normal to think about it.
681
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:13,520
I think where, and I, I will never forget the week.
682
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:18,000
I'm sure I've told you this, the week that both Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade killed
683
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,000
themselves.
684
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,440
I was like, that's it.
685
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,520
I'm not going to not talk about this.
686
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:28,200
I'm not going to like, I'm never going to shy away from this because I don't want anyone
687
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:33,280
to feel like that's not like that.
688
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,960
There's something wrong with them if they're going there.
689
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:42,240
But yeah, there is, I think it's important to also be able to distinguish like, when
690
00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:44,200
is it like scary, scary.
691
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,400
And that's when you start to plan.
692
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:47,400
Yeah.
693
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:53,480
Um, but for me, like when I was in college and was hospitalized on suicide watch, like
694
00:37:53,480 --> 00:38:00,720
I could never, I could never go there because I couldn't imagine doing that to my parents.
695
00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:01,720
That's you.
696
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:05,560
But that's not a great reason to live either.
697
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,320
It's like, it's not a great reason to live.
698
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,320
It's just like, just not a good enough reason to kill myself.
699
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:11,320
Not to kill myself.
700
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:12,320
Right?
701
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:17,560
No, but that's how, that's like, that was what like thinking of my family, that's what,
702
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:23,400
that's what kept me out of like getting to the two or the one on the scale.
703
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:30,240
So, so I mean, we've, we've talked about this a little bit offline, but how do you, how
704
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:33,640
do you get out of that?
705
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:38,040
Um, yeah, this is an area I'm not actually particularly good at.
706
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:44,800
And I think men, we haven't generally speaking had this modeled for us, which is to like
707
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,480
talk to people about it.
708
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:47,480
Right.
709
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:48,880
Men bottle it up and we push it down.
710
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,480
My brothers and I joke that like, no, no, you don't talk about things.
711
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:57,640
You push it down way down.
712
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:58,680
And kudos to my brothers.
713
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:05,000
We have over the years have tried to, to be there for each other and to talk about these
714
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:06,240
things and we still struggle.
715
00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:09,180
We still struggle to talk about negative things.
716
00:39:09,180 --> 00:39:12,800
Do your brothers have similar mental health stuff?
717
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:13,800
Yeah.
718
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:14,800
My sister doesn't.
719
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,160
And frankly, my husband doesn't either.
720
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:22,000
We have our own struggles and it usually, it revolves around different things.
721
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:29,360
It we, and like nobody from the outside would ever accuse us of being depressed, which is,
722
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,160
you know, as much as I've learned, that's, that's part of the problem.
723
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,040
That's part of the problem.
724
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,040
So yeah.
725
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,360
So like trying to get better at that, talking to my wife, talking to professionals.
726
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:48,400
Um, but fortunately this one was so bad and so prolonged that it did take antidepressants
727
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:59,520
to like kind of just like reset the whatever set of neurochemistry plus self loathing,
728
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,640
you know, internal dialogue that was going on.
729
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:03,640
I, okay.
730
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,840
First of all, I don't, I don't love that you said unfortunately, because I don't think
731
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:08,640
there's any, sorry, you're right.
732
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:09,640
You're right.
733
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:11,520
I don't think there's any like best way to do it.
734
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,040
And like I, this time that's what it took.
735
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:16,400
Right.
736
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,640
And I remember actually Mickey, when you and I started talking and like immediately we're
737
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,000
like, okay, we're talking every week.
738
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,800
Like you become like one of my best friends and I haven't even met you in person yet.
739
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,280
That'll change.
740
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:32,440
Um, but that was about three weeks after you getting on Prozac.
741
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:33,440
Yeah.
742
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,720
And you were like, I'm a different person.
743
00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:36,720
I, yeah.
744
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:37,720
Yeah.
745
00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:38,720
I've discovered chat GPT.
746
00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:39,720
Oh yeah.
747
00:40:39,720 --> 00:40:41,720
That was a good, that was good timing too.
748
00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:42,720
Yeah.
749
00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:46,200
Well, everything happens for a reason, but yeah.
750
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,040
I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with there.
751
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:51,600
Isn't no, absolutely.
752
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:52,600
There absolutely is.
753
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:59,400
And, but, but I, I get that too of like, when I ask you like, how did you get out of it?
754
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:04,840
Actually let me, let me unpack the, unfortunately, cause I think that that's a hint at one of
755
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:11,200
my own issues, which is I like to be able to fix things myself.
756
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:15,520
So like I was frustrated with myself that I couldn't get myself out of the depression.
757
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:16,680
Like I could see it.
758
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:17,680
I knew it was bad.
759
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,240
I knew I didn't want it, but I literally couldn't get myself out.
760
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:25,160
So I say, unfortunately, because there is a part of me that felt like I failed.
761
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:26,160
Right.
762
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:27,160
Right.
763
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:32,240
And I had to give up that narrative.
764
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:34,800
The narrative of the Mr. Fixer.
765
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:36,840
I'm a, I'm a failure.
766
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,000
Oh, okay.
767
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,000
To get past it.
768
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,000
Yeah.
769
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,400
Because a lot of my self-worth has been tied up in intelligence.
770
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:49,880
I'm learning how to let that go.
771
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:56,200
But if you can't fix something, you must not be smart enough.
772
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,200
Most of the smartest people have the most issues.
773
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:00,200
Yes.
774
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,840
But that's, that's like, that's always been, and it's still a problem I deal with.
775
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:11,360
So you know, I say, I said, unfortunately, because underlying that is I want to be able
776
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:19,920
to, I want to feel like I am good enough, smart enough, you know, whatever enough, enough.
777
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:20,920
Enough.
778
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:21,920
Yeah.
779
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,960
To do it.
780
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,440
And I couldn't.
781
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:37,000
I is actually was the other thing I wanted to talk about today was like, where does self-esteem
782
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,000
come from?
783
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,360
Because like, I know for me, it changes, right?
784
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:48,200
Like it, I was this like little, like adorable little ballerina and tutus when I was really
785
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:49,200
young.
786
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:57,220
And then like, I was super, super like straight A studious, like super smart teacher's pet.
787
00:42:57,220 --> 00:43:02,540
And then like, went to high school with like the smartest people like in the universe and
788
00:43:02,540 --> 00:43:05,840
was like middle of the road and couldn't rely on that anymore.
789
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:10,440
And then like, when I anyway, I had a dark time in college.
790
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,600
And then when I got into the workforce, it was all about chasing the money.
791
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,600
And like, I wanted to prove that like, I could make my own money and I could buy myself that
792
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:23,560
Mercedes and I can do all these things on my own without a man.
793
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:31,320
And then like, had some tough times, but then like, started my business.
794
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:37,080
And it was like really important for me to have everybody know that like, even though
795
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,680
my husband has a good job and he's making money, like I make more money than he does.
796
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,560
And like, I started my business, I'm fucking badass, I'm making all this money.
797
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:50,360
And then this year, you know, it's basically nothing like almost zero.
798
00:43:50,360 --> 00:44:04,200
And I think it's actually the first time that I haven't changed my self worth to something
799
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,080
else other than maybe my daughter.
800
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:08,080
But I think that's okay.
801
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:09,080
I think that's okay.
802
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:10,080
Every parent does that.
803
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:11,080
Yeah.
804
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:18,200
And, but like, you know, a lot of times, and I think that's why these layoffs or firings
805
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:26,280
or whatever it's like you to be successful and to be engaged, you give so much of yourself
806
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:27,720
to this employer.
807
00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:33,560
But at the end of the day, it's bottom line is that it's not you.
808
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:38,960
Even the best managers, the best cultures, the end of the day, you don't matter more
809
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,240
than the bottom line period.
810
00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:49,200
And like, I made that mistake in my younger years of not understanding that and had some
811
00:44:49,200 --> 00:45:03,480
more very similar experiences as you and and I'm surprised that I'm not like, not really
812
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:08,520
going through it right now because like, because I'm not making any money.
813
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:13,600
And I don't have like, I don't have that thing to be like, this is what I am.
814
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,960
Yeah, I'm just, I'm just being me.
815
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:18,400
I'm just following my heart.
816
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:23,260
I'm just doing what I think hopefully will be valuable both to me, but other people.
817
00:45:23,260 --> 00:45:26,560
Maybe this podcast will see.
818
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,400
But also like taking care of my family and taking care of the house since we're not,
819
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,400
you know, I'm a housekeeper.
820
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:40,800
Yours was, she got, she's amazing.
821
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,000
And unfortunately, she's sick.
822
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:48,520
Yeah, no, I, I, and sorry for the record, I like, I did not grow up with money and I
823
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:54,480
am so, so, so, so, so, so, so grateful that I'm at a point in my life where I can afford
824
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:55,480
that help.
825
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,160
And, and, and I will never not be grateful for it.
826
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:00,600
Yeah, yeah.
827
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:06,400
Well, and honestly, and Dan is like, he's like, yeah, like maybe we should get a housekeeper
828
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,880
in here to like, you know, just do some things.
829
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:14,720
And I'm like, I literally like, like $200 even once a month.
830
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:17,240
I'm like, like, do you know what I could buy?
831
00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:22,320
Do you know how many Amazon dresses I could buy with $200?
832
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:23,320
I think about the time.
833
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,040
I think about the time it takes to deep clean your house.
834
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,180
Yeah, no, I get, I get on my knees.
835
00:46:30,180 --> 00:46:35,800
And I, I've been there with the scrubbing and I'm like, I'm getting into the, like,
836
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:41,920
the molding baseboards, which I'll tell you, none of our housekeepers ever got into the
837
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:42,920
base.
838
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:43,920
Nobody ever cleans the baseboards.
839
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:49,000
Well, and that's what I'm saying is now, like, I was already very particular about my housekeepers
840
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:53,560
and now I'm going to be really particular because anyway, we're off topic.
841
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:59,840
So you, you talked about money and I want, I actually, I want to touch on that.
842
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:07,200
I'm human just like everybody else, but it's, I have had to come to the reckoning of, oh,
843
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,800
like, money is useful for many things.
844
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:16,160
And I actually, I want money to further reinforce my values, like being able to spend time how
845
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:22,720
I want to being able to take care of my family, being able to take care of my extended family.
846
00:47:22,720 --> 00:47:23,720
That's what I want money for.
847
00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:24,720
Yeah.
848
00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:29,080
I mean, I think, man, I mean, it's such a personal thing, but also like, I'm glad that
849
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,120
money has become less personal.
850
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:38,400
Like for me, it's easy to talk about with people because like, as a recruiter, like
851
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,640
I ask people all the time, what do they make all the time?
852
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,760
I know whatever I like, I probably could nail on the head what you're making pretty closely.
853
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,120
I probably make less.
854
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:49,120
I probably make less.
855
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:50,120
And we've had that conversation.
856
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:51,120
And so I probably could.
857
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:52,120
Yeah, you have Mickey.
858
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:53,120
I probably, but that's okay.
859
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,120
Like I made that decision.
860
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,720
But yeah, whatever.
861
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:06,320
But like my, my comfort in like talking to people about money is, is probably like pushing
862
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,000
it a little bit for most people.
863
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:18,640
But like, I think that's also like, that's what, that's what fosters financial illiteracy
864
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,000
is when everybody's keeping it so close to the chest.
865
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:26,440
And I think it's actually things are moving in the right direction where you're, you have
866
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:31,360
to actually say like what you're going to pay for this role and all that.
867
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:37,560
So it's easier to have more pay equity, but like being able to talk to talk openly about
868
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,000
like, cause we all have the ups and downs.
869
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,760
Well, not everybody, some people like never have to worry about that.
870
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,920
Being born rich is, is a double edged sword.
871
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:51,320
We all know that, you know, if you don't go through struggles, like if your character
872
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:57,160
isn't tested, if you aren't forced to like figure out your way through and not, I want
873
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:01,720
to say that like, I don't think that that's the only way, but that's what people are,
874
00:49:01,720 --> 00:49:02,720
that's what people say sometimes.
875
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:03,720
Sure.
876
00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:12,000
Um, well, it's kind of, I mean, back to the mental health stuff, like I remember Dan in
877
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:18,320
2017, he had just started at Salesforce and he's been there for five or six years.
878
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:25,760
So it's been since then, and that was like my year of like really like I was doing so
879
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:30,080
many different jobs and I was coming home from waitressing at this restaurant that like
880
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,020
nobody was going there and they were over staffing and I was like literally putting
881
00:49:33,020 --> 00:49:39,920
my pennies on the carpet and like seeing how close I could get to like my half of rent
882
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:45,480
and then everything else he would cover and then groceries and just like basics we were
883
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:51,960
putting on credit cards and so we got into debt and um, and so that was financially harder
884
00:49:51,960 --> 00:50:03,840
than we are now, but now it's, you know, also not ideal and, and I would call him those
885
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:08,880
mornings when I couldn't get out of bed and I would call him and he would be at Salesforce
886
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:15,960
at work, this new job, big job and be like, I'm not okay, like I'm not okay right now.
887
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:16,960
Can you call me back?
888
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:23,320
Like talk to me and you know, and I was jealous and like just all these things and, and there
889
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:31,600
was one time we went to hippie hill, um, for oyster fest and my parents live near Golden
890
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:37,960
Gate park and we went there and we sat on the hill and I just, I just started crying.
891
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,400
I couldn't stop crying and my parents picked me up and we went back to the house and they
892
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:45,720
were like, they were like, Sarah, I know you can't afford to go to therapy right now.
893
00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:50,100
And it turned out also, I had been on my medication for seven years and like, I really needed
894
00:50:50,100 --> 00:50:56,040
to switch it, but like I couldn't afford a psychiatrist for like 150 bucks a week or
895
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,800
whatever and they were like, we're going to pay for it.
896
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:04,520
And like basically this is your intervention, but the, the thing that's crazy to me is that
897
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:10,440
Dan then like, you know, fast forward a couple of years and like, I'm on my high horse again
898
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,960
and I'm making all this money and whatever.
899
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:22,320
And um, now it's gone down a bit since then, but, um, but I remember being like, what the
900
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:26,320
fuck did you see in me?
901
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,480
I mean, I could, I literally couldn't get out of bed and I think at that point we were
902
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:38,000
maybe engaged, but we weren't married and you know, I think it's also having those people
903
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:45,720
in your corner and, and I think it's one of the reasons why I feel so close to you is
904
00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:50,360
like, you've also been in my corner and I think you and I are able to talk about the
905
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:59,720
hard stuff, but also like, you know, I remember you saying like, well, I'm not going to buy
906
00:51:59,720 --> 00:52:03,360
your courses, but I'll root for you.
907
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:11,640
But, but, um, but no, I mean, it's God, like what, what, what makes a life right?
908
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:16,780
And like, you know, you're doing great now and like, there's going to be a time I bet
909
00:52:16,780 --> 00:52:20,800
when you're hopefully not as down as you were before, but you will be down a little bit
910
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:22,320
and I want to be there.
911
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:29,080
I think that's like, that's something that I've learned over time is that there's peaks
912
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:34,080
and valleys, but my goal is to just continuously push that baseline up.
913
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:40,360
And when there are tough times, now I have more strategies now.
914
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,200
Like my friends?
915
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:44,200
On occasion.
916
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:55,480
Um, so there, but there's also like, um, we go through these like tough times and it,
917
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:59,000
as much as it sucked and I did not enjoy it, like it helps me learn.
918
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:00,000
Yeah.
919
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,840
And part of the reason I, I part of the reason I want to be wealthy wealthy so that when
920
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,800
those tough times come, money is not the problem.
921
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:07,800
Yes.
922
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:14,680
And that's why I want to make money more than anything is because we have no idea what's
923
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:16,920
going to happen with AI.
924
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:17,920
The world is burning.
925
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,160
I mean, look at what happened with Lahaina.
926
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:25,920
Like it's just devastating and that's happening everywhere.
927
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:33,160
And the life that our kids are going to lead is going to be hard in ways that like we can't
928
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:34,800
even imagine yet.
929
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:41,360
And the people that have money are going to survive and they're going to have it a lot
930
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:42,360
easier.
931
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,320
That's how it works.
932
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:53,320
That same logic applies to the optimistic side of that scenario.
933
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:57,040
Just like there are going to be challenges ahead that we can't imagine, there are going
934
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,600
to be good things ahead that we can't imagine.
935
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:06,000
It's actually kind of easier for us to imagine the difficult scenarios.
936
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,000
And we got daughters, man.
937
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:14,080
Oh, I'm, I'm, I'm well aware that I think the, the point you make around wanting for
938
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:18,920
your kids to rely on you, that's what I think about.
939
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:22,680
I think, I think about Logan, like she's going to experience tough times.
940
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:24,920
She'll probably get bullied.
941
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:28,320
She'll probably struggle with image issues.
942
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:30,520
Like there's a multitude of things that can happen.
943
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:32,960
I sincerely hope the worst stuff doesn't happen.
944
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:34,720
I know.
945
00:54:34,720 --> 00:54:39,720
But if it does, I don't want her to ever feel like I'm not there unconditionally.
946
00:54:39,720 --> 00:54:41,480
I'm here unconditionally.
947
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,320
Doesn't matter what happens.
948
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:49,200
And yes, money would be a fantastic, will be a fantastic tool to help in those situations.
949
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:53,520
That's goes to my point of like, I don't want it to be a problem because I've, I've been
950
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:59,800
in this situation where it is a problem and I, and I know it's a huge, huge, huge stressor.
951
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:12,640
So one last kind of intense question is, do you feel like you still, I mean, I imagine
952
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,920
you still were there for her unconditionally, but like, how did that affect you as a parent
953
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,720
when you were in that dark time last year?
954
00:55:19,720 --> 00:55:22,520
Yeah, it was really hard to be there for her at all.
955
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:28,360
And it made me angry and it made me angry at myself.
956
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,520
Sure.
957
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:31,960
And you want to be brutally honest?
958
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:32,960
Yeah.
959
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,600
Right now I'm talking to you and there's a part of my brain that says she's likely home
960
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,640
somewhere and I'm not giving her my attention.
961
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:41,640
Get the fuck out of here.
962
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:43,320
Well you just keep talking to me.
963
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:44,320
No.
964
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:45,320
I know.
965
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,440
Well, it's Friday and I got a glass of wine here.
966
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:49,680
I'm talking to one of my favorite people in the whole world.
967
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:51,160
But like, parent guilt.
968
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:52,160
Oh yeah.
969
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:53,560
I try to get myself some slack.
970
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:55,160
I spend a lot of time with Logan.
971
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:56,520
I know you do.
972
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:58,000
I've always wanted to be a father.
973
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,280
I take a lot of pride in being a father.
974
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:05,720
That is a part of my value and it's a part of why I'm working my ass off with Chachie
975
00:56:05,720 --> 00:56:13,320
PT and my and our company and why and why I stay optimistic.
976
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:22,800
Because a lot of people say we want to go back to the way it was.
977
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,440
And I don't think that I think that's the wrong way of thinking about it.
978
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:26,440
Because guess what?
979
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,160
I haven't done time travel yet.
980
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:30,120
Hopefully maybe one day.
981
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:31,120
Hopefully.
982
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:32,320
Well we'll see.
983
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:33,320
You watched Family Guy?
984
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:34,320
I have.
985
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:36,240
I've watched many things on time travel.
986
00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:39,760
I know it's a slippery, slippery set.
987
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:45,200
No, but my point is like there is no going back.
988
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:48,120
That we have one direction of time.
989
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:52,040
And if you want to go back to the way it was, you're fighting the wrong battle and you're
990
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:53,680
asking the wrong question.
991
00:56:53,680 --> 00:57:01,360
So I stay optimistic, not rosy, everything's going to be perfect, but I stay optimistic
992
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:04,160
that there is a future ahead of us.
993
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:10,100
That it is on the whole better than what came before it.
994
00:57:10,100 --> 00:57:16,940
There will be new challenges and I'm going to actively participate in crafting that and
995
00:57:16,940 --> 00:57:20,760
preparing Logan for those challenges because she will face them.
996
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:32,200
Yeah, I mean and it's all about community and I think community is so different now.
997
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:38,400
We used to rely on who was physically next to us or who was physically in the office
998
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:39,400
with us.
999
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:43,280
I don't know, I think about it a lot, Mickey.
1000
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:48,200
You and Jonel are two of my closest friends.
1001
00:57:48,200 --> 00:58:02,240
I consider you guys both professional colleagues in a way, but also friends in the sense where
1002
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:13,040
you get me so deeply and you support me and I support you in a way that I feel like, and
1003
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,680
Jonel's actually coming out to Colorado to visit me next month.
1004
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:17,680
That's awesome.
1005
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:19,800
I haven't even met her yet.
1006
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:26,960
It's to your point, like, you know, if I were, granted I never liked going into an office,
1007
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:31,000
but like if we were all in the, you know, we're in the Bay Area and going in and then
1008
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:32,600
it's like, would I have met you?
1009
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:33,600
Would I have met Jonel?
1010
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:36,920
Like would I, like, you don't know.
1011
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:42,320
Or would we have the time to cultivate the things that are meaningful?
1012
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:54,360
And like, I will tell you full stop, my conversations with you and her, like fill up my cup.
1013
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:59,040
I feel the same.
1014
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:04,840
That's why I invest.
1015
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:08,000
So how much money are you investing?
1016
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:15,280
At my normal hourly rate, multiplied by the opportunity cost of like the things I'm not
1017
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:16,280
doing.
1018
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:25,200
Oh well, Mickey, gosh, I just, there's nobody I would rather hang out with on a Friday afternoon
1019
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:26,200
with a glass of wine.
1020
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:27,200
Okay.
1021
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:28,960
There are like five people that are like, are at least at your level.
1022
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:29,960
Yeah.
1023
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:30,960
We could all hang out together.
1024
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:31,960
Yes.
1025
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:33,960
Well, you have to come out, you have to come out to Colorado.
1026
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:34,960
I want to.
1027
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:36,840
It's in, I've been wanting to take my parents out there for a long time.
1028
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:42,320
It's just, it's like every time we want to do it, it's like, it's not, it doesn't work.
1029
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:43,320
All right.
1030
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:44,320
I have to go clean the house.
1031
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:45,320
Okay, Mickey.
1032
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:46,320
Big cuts.
1033
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:47,320
Thank you.
1034
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:48,320
Thank you for having me on.
1035
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:49,320
Thank you for being here.
1036
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:50,320
Of course.
1037
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:51,320
I'll come back anytime.
1038
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:52,320
Cool.
1039
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:53,320
Sweet.
1040
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:54,320
Have a good weekend.
1041
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:55,320
I'll talk to you next week.
1042
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:56,320
You too, darling.
1043
00:59:56,320 --> 01:00:11,280
Bye.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,800
Hello and welcome to the second episode of Success Unscripted.
2
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,160
If you had a chance to tune into the first episode, thank you so much.
3
00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,360
And thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for everybody who reached out with supportive
4
00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:24,360
comments and feedback.
5
00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,440
This has been a really fun project and I'm glad you guys are enjoying it too.
6
00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:33,640
I did want to give you a heads up that this episode is going to be a little bit different
7
00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:35,400
for several reasons.
8
00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:40,320
I recorded it back in August with my dear, dear friend, Nikki Powell.
9
00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:48,280
And as we often do in our conversations, we start to venture into some pretty heavy topics.
10
00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:53,160
I actually find it to be overall pretty hilarious and the final message is quite uplifting.
11
00:00:53,160 --> 00:00:57,360
But I did want to give you a heads up that we talk about anxiety, we talk about depression,
12
00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,200
we even talk about suicide.
13
00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:04,720
So if that's not something that you want to be thinking about right now, you know, just
14
00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,080
turn that bad boy off.
15
00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:08,440
We also talk about family.
16
00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:13,760
So I feel it's important for me to mention that in the two months since recording this
17
00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:19,880
episode, both Mickey's mother and oldest brother have passed away.
18
00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:26,560
Thankfully not from suicide, but both were very unexpected within days of each other.
19
00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,080
And it's been pretty devastating.
20
00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:35,320
I'm actually recording this introduction on Thanksgiving weekend, which is incredibly
21
00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:40,640
fitting because Mickey, I am so, so grateful to have you in my life.
22
00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,520
The other thing that's a little bit different about this episode is that I decided to enjoy
23
00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,800
some wine while we chatted.
24
00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:52,080
And even stone cold sober, I have to really try not to slur my words.
25
00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:57,160
So you'll probably be able to tell that I get a little bit toasty towards the end.
26
00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,000
And it's not my best look.
27
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,880
I'm a little bit embarrassed about it.
28
00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:02,880
But fuck it.
29
00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:08,240
I'm just going to keep reminding myself something that I heard Sophia Bush say, which is that
30
00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:13,660
you are allowed to be a masterpiece and a work in progress simultaneously.
31
00:02:13,660 --> 00:02:18,900
And so with that, I invite you to sit back, grab a glass of wine or a cup of tea or nothing
32
00:02:18,900 --> 00:02:24,520
at all, and enjoy an intimate conversation between two very good friends who are just
33
00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,360
doing the best that they can.
34
00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:28,360
Enjoy.
35
00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:29,360
Hello.
36
00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:30,360
Hello.
37
00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:31,360
Hello.
38
00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:32,360
Can you hear me now?
39
00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,360
There you are.
40
00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,360
Fantastic.
41
00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,480
Well, thank you.
42
00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:46,440
Gosh, I'm not as nervous as I was when we did the webinar.
43
00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,080
Well, there's not 60 people staring at you.
44
00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:51,080
Right.
45
00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:52,080
Well, I couldn't even see them.
46
00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,080
You know they're there.
47
00:02:55,080 --> 00:03:00,760
So I'm super stoked for you to be, technically you're my second guest because you know what
48
00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:01,760
happened yesterday.
49
00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:02,760
I don't.
50
00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:08,000
So I had Elise, who's like, I'm sure I've mentioned her.
51
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,400
She's VP of success and support at Gorgias.
52
00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,080
And I placed her as a manager of activation and she's just gotten promoted and promoted
53
00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:15,080
and promoted.
54
00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:16,480
She's a huge team.
55
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,400
So yeah, I took an hour of her time.
56
00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:28,040
And then when I went to stop the recording, I didn't record any of it.
57
00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,440
So that's why I'm doing this with friends to start because you know, she's doing it
58
00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:32,880
again with me next week.
59
00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:33,880
Yeah.
60
00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:44,560
But no, I'm excited for today because I admire you a lot, both personally and professionally.
61
00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:50,240
And I know that you haven't always had it easy.
62
00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,640
And like me, you've, you know, struggled with some mental health stuff and ups and downs
63
00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:55,640
and yada yada.
64
00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,600
So definitely want to talk about some customer success stuff, but I want to get into the
65
00:03:58,600 --> 00:03:59,600
good stuff with you.
66
00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:00,600
Sounds good.
67
00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,080
Because I know you'll go there.
68
00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,000
But no, it's been so fucking cool to watch you blossom this year.
69
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,880
Like I'm like, I'm like, Hey, I know him.
70
00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:14,960
Like you were just killing it.
71
00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,120
And you become such an expert on customer success and AI.
72
00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:24,520
And you're just working your tush off and doing some really, really, really cool things.
73
00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,840
So yeah, want to want to kind of get into your background.
74
00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:34,800
I also want to talk about like, you know, some of those times when you weren't necessarily
75
00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,720
on top of the world.
76
00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:43,360
And kind of how to get out of them and all that, because I think that's, that's part
77
00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:54,640
of helping other people find their own path, but also like feel supported when they are
78
00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:55,760
down and out.
79
00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:57,760
Like everybody's been there.
80
00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:02,000
And especially now, like everyone, except for you, pretty much is there right now.
81
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,720
But maybe you are in some other ways.
82
00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:05,720
I don't know.
83
00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:06,720
I don't want to put words in your mouth.
84
00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:11,800
So yeah, so tell me, tell me what you do right now.
85
00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:13,120
I know, but tell them.
86
00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:14,120
Yeah.
87
00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:19,760
So right now, I'm the head of go to market at update AI.
88
00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:27,320
We're a very young company trying to do lots of things, but mainly we're trying to make
89
00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:34,560
sure that customer success is finally at the center of driving organizations forward.
90
00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,800
We refer to as being the heart of the organization.
91
00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:42,040
And we mean that kind of in the literal sense of like pumping blood to the organs and the
92
00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,280
limbs.
93
00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:49,560
We do that using artificial intelligence, like chat GPT, as well as some of our own
94
00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:59,120
data science and just a totally zealot focus on customer success, which is my background.
95
00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:09,240
I've spent last 10 years in customer success and it's just such an underserved community
96
00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,800
and function and I'm sick of it.
97
00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,280
So I'm going to change it.
98
00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:16,280
You are changing it.
99
00:06:16,280 --> 00:06:22,480
And yeah, not only is it underserved, but it's also so nuanced.
100
00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:28,200
Like that's what I love about being customer success recruiter is like, it's not, it's
101
00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:29,880
not one size fits all.
102
00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:35,760
Not that it's that way for like sales or marketing or any other role, but like it's especially
103
00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:40,200
true in customer success that like the playbooks are different.
104
00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:41,440
The cadences are different.
105
00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,320
The type of people you need to hire are different.
106
00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:48,560
Like it's just depending on all the different factors of like how big are your customers,
107
00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,480
what industry are they in and all these different things.
108
00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:58,800
So it's just fun to like you get to be more creative with it and have really interesting
109
00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:04,240
conversations with success leaders, which I know you're doing all the time.
110
00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:09,360
So how did you find yourself in customer success?
111
00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:15,720
Yeah, I found myself in customer success because I had some sales skills.
112
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:16,980
Okay.
113
00:07:16,980 --> 00:07:19,880
So I didn't go to college.
114
00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:21,640
I moved to San Francisco in 2009.
115
00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:27,400
I started working at AT&T in retail right across from the ballpark and I'm a big, yeah,
116
00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:28,400
go ahead.
117
00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,840
Did I tell you that my first job was in retail at the Apple store?
118
00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:36,480
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that we, we covered that when we first or second met.
119
00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,480
Well, that was like 20 million conversations ago.
120
00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:40,480
I don't remember that.
121
00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,320
But back when it was AT&T park, what is it now?
122
00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:44,320
Oracle?
123
00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,080
It'll always be Pac-Bell to me.
124
00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:48,080
Wow.
125
00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:49,960
Yeah, you're throwing it way back to the beginning.
126
00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:51,960
Hey, born and raised.
127
00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:53,960
I'm born and raised in California.
128
00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:54,960
Yeah.
129
00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,960
So I started working across the street from the ballpark in 2009, which was awesome because
130
00:07:57,960 --> 00:07:59,200
I'm a big Giants fan.
131
00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:04,360
Baseball was my, my first real like sports love.
132
00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:05,360
So what you're wearing?
133
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:06,360
Yeah.
134
00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:07,360
Yeah.
135
00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:08,360
I like it.
136
00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:09,360
The black on black.
137
00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:10,360
Yeah.
138
00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:11,360
Yeah.
139
00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,200
So that was awesome.
140
00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:20,280
Like that, you know, I was single, new to San Francisco, got a decent job and you know,
141
00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,040
I'm working down by the ballpark and I'm loving the whole Giants thing.
142
00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,000
But then I was starting to get good at my job.
143
00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,620
I was starting to deal with a lot of business customers and then just people living down
144
00:08:31,620 --> 00:08:32,620
by the ballpark.
145
00:08:32,620 --> 00:08:36,320
And you know who was living and working down by the ballpark in 2009?
146
00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,320
Besides homeless people.
147
00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:39,880
Yeah.
148
00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,140
Besides homeless people.
149
00:08:42,140 --> 00:08:43,560
It was a lot of startups.
150
00:08:43,560 --> 00:08:44,560
Right.
151
00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:48,840
Startups that people hadn't heard of at the time, like Square or Dropbox.
152
00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:49,840
Yeah.
153
00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:51,000
Or Yammer.
154
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,000
I remember, can I interject?
155
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:55,360
Yeah.
156
00:08:55,360 --> 00:09:00,880
I remember back in, it must've been in seventh grade.
157
00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:06,040
So this was like 2001, 2002 and my dad's in commercial real estate and he's driving me
158
00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,120
around driving me to a Bat Mitzvah.
159
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:14,440
And this was before like Twitter moved in and all these companies moved in and he started
160
00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,280
pointing out these buildings that they then moved into.
161
00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:22,840
And he said, you know, Sarah, this is like, like this is about to blow up.
162
00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:24,320
This is the tech scene.
163
00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,800
And this was before the open concept exposed rafters.
164
00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:33,560
And he told me, he was like, these companies are buying these buildings and they're all
165
00:09:33,560 --> 00:09:37,920
going to sit in the same room and it's going to be this industrial feel.
166
00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,120
And like, and just you watch and it's, it's just so cool because now, well, and now we're
167
00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,160
going through another evolution of not going to work at all.
168
00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:50,320
But like, you know, when I was at Zenefits and all the different tech startups, like
169
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,920
that was just how it was.
170
00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:57,720
But it's, it's funny being there during those inflection points.
171
00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:58,720
Yeah.
172
00:09:58,720 --> 00:09:59,720
Well, yeah, it's a total shift, right?
173
00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:06,280
But yeah, so long story short, I was at AT&T for nearly three years and I saw, you know,
174
00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,960
I saw this like tech scene and I was like, this seems like something I should be involved
175
00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:11,960
in.
176
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I also just kind of came to the realization I'm never going back to school.
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And that's partially because I love to learn and I hate school, you know, reconcile that
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some, you know, somebody that's smarter than me, please tell me why that is.
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Because I'm, I've thought about it a lot.
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Well, another day.
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So I went and got a job as an SDR at a company called Demand Force.
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That's where you met Jo-Nel.
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Yes.
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Well, actually, I don't know if I even actually met Jo-Nel.
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That's the funny thing.
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You seem to think that you know each other.
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She's going to be on this too.
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It's because we know people that like we have similar groups that we know.
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Well, probably like in Salesforce, you saw each other, you know.
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Yeah, Salesforce emails, but there was multiple floors.
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We had like four or five floors in a building.
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I remember I interviewed there before I joined Zenefits, I think.
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There you go.
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Yeah.
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So yeah, like I became an SDR.
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It was so hard.
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Did you like the phone calling?
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I mean, some people, yeah, most people don't.
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I have met people that like love it, which is...
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No, yeah, those people.
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I've met lots of those people.
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I saw lots of people do really, really well.
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And I started to learn what I was good at and what I wasn't good at and what I liked
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and what I didn't like.
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And I'm good at learning new things, learning them fast and applying them fast.
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Hence this whole chat GPT thing.
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But I just, I really did not like being told no 98 times out of a hundred calls.
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Yeah.
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97 on a good day.
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But demand force had just been bought by Intuit.
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It was a step in the door.
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I knew I wanted to be in tech, but I didn't know anything more than that.
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Yeah.
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And I got promoted to be an account executive and quickly realized that that wasn't really
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for me.
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And leadership there agreed to.
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Why?
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Not a closer?
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I'm just, yeah, like I wasn't like, I didn't have the fortitude at the time to really stick
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it out.
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Yeah.
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Because like not only do you have to grind like an SDR, but you also have to do all the
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things you got to do to close.
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Yeah.
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And the quotes and the follow ups and the timelines and the.
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Yeah.
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So it didn't really find my place.
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My wife and I actually, oh, she, my girlfriend at the time, now wife.
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Did you meet in San Francisco?
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And we almost moved to Sacramento because we have family and friends out there, but
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she got a job right out of college for a company called fit mob, which was later acquired by
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class pass.
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And so we decided to stick around, but I had already put in my notice at demand force and
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I was like, I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to do the cold calling anymore.
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So I was like, I got to go find another job.
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So I applied for a company called five stars for a client retention specialist that I seemed
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qualified for.
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And the hiring manager, Gracie, she had me cold call in the interview.
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Gracie for a CS role.
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Well not cold call.
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Sorry.
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She had me call a customer and talk to a customer in the interview.
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I think she wanted to make sure.
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I mean, that's it's almost better than like a role play though.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I did find, I hate.
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Yeah, they're tough.
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Yeah.
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It's really hard.
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But yeah, I did find I got the job.
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I started at five stars, May 27th, 2014 as a client retention specialist.
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The first one.
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How do you remember that date?
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How do I remember that date?
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I don't know.
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It just kind of stuck with me.
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But three days later I was on the phone with five stars customers trying to make sure they're
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successful and not canceling.
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And we were gearing up to raise a series B. So we were trying to get a handle on churn.
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Did it feel meaningfully different right away or like?
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Yeah.
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I mean, one of the ways that it felt different immediately is there were some data for me
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to, to understand how they're using this tool that they already purchased.
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Okay.
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And what is five stars do?
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Five stars is a loyalty and now payments processing tool for retail small businesses in the U.S.
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and Canada.
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Okay.
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And they came out of Y Combinator in 2011.
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And that's where I really cut my teeth in customer success, but also Gracie and the other
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leaders there were really phenomenal in regards to allowing you to, to get your hands dirty
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and lots of things.
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Yeah.
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So I taught myself really advanced Salesforce reporting.
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And then of course, just like got more into the operational side.
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And then I tried to kind of get into training and enablement and I realized, okay, I know
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enough to understand how this works, but this isn't really what I love.
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Like, I don't really love instructional design.
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You love school so much.
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Yeah.
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And yeah, so like I went on that ride and actually I got lit.
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I got laid off from, from five stars as a part of a large riff at the very beginning
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of 2017.
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Okay.
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How did that feel?
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Actually not as, that one didn't hurt as, as bad as other ones that I've been a part
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of.
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And that's partially because I, I knew it wasn't about me.
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Right.
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Right.
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Cause I knew where five stars was at the time.
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I had an understanding of the needs of the business and my boss at the time, gentlemen
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by the name of Micah, who is, I still consider a friend and mentor.
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He's the one that let me go.
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We still laugh about it.
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Well, it must have sucked for him.
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Yeah.
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He, no, yeah, he didn't, he, it wasn't, he didn't find any joy in it.
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But yeah, so like I got laid off and then it's like, well, what do I do now?
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We knew we were going to move to Orange County from San Francisco now.
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And at that time for anybody that remembers in 20 early 2017, there wasn't a lot of remote
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jobs.
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Right.
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So I couldn't really find remote work and then fast forward like four months after getting
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laid off, Gracie needed somebody on her team.
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So I went back into my old role.
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You went back to five stars.
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I went back to five stars.
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Okay.
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And that's when I got more into operations, leadership, program management, and that kind
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of like really accelerated my career down to this like customer success operations path.
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Are you managing people there?
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I did manage people for a time there.
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Yeah.
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And that was when I realized like leadership is hard.
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It's obviously it's a different beast.
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Yes.
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Yes, it is.
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And I really want to be focused on driving like impact in the business from an operational
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standpoint.
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Yeah.
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And I, I was kind of figuring out my groove was working cross-functionally with people
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to do that.
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And then I found an opportunity at Zora to start and be the only manager of customer
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success strategy and operations.
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And then, you know, fast forward, I ended up at update AI.
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I'm fast forwarding over some painful parts.
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You want to fast forward over the painful parts?
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We can talk about the painful parts.
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00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:10,760
Yeah, so I left Zora for an opportunity at a company that I will not name because it
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was not a pleasant experience.
333
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:13,800
Okay.
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Fair enough.
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00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:20,000
Yeah, it just, it, I was only there for a few short months.
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I literally like took the job and then a very, very difficult situation came up in our family.
337
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And I did not have the support of my leader.
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00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:39,200
This leader, when I got hired, I made sure that they knew I have a daughter.
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I'm not available at six or seven AM.
340
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:42,760
Right.
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00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,960
If I can on occasion, I will because it was a global company.
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Right.
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And I've done that before.
344
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:49,960
Okay.
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00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:50,960
So this is not an early stage startup.
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This is a large global.
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Larger, larger global company.
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But like broadly speaking, I'm not available.
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I'm taking care of my daughter in the mornings.
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I'm getting her where she needs to go.
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And they're like, cool.
352
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Yeah, no problem.
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00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:12,980
Fast forward a couple of months, it became a problem because we had folks in time zones
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that me being on the West coast, they could only really work with me if I had a meeting
355
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at five or six, maybe seven AM in the morning.
356
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:38,200
And so, so your job was in it in jeopardy because you couldn't take five AM calls.
357
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:39,700
Yes.
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00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:48,360
And it came to a head over a really short period of time that led to them letting me
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go.
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00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:56,080
And by short period of time, I mean like 10 days.
361
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So I was there for a couple of months.
362
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,620
I had set that expectation.
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00:20:01,620 --> 00:20:06,200
It became a problem in a very short period of time.
364
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,200
And then they let me go.
365
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:10,200
And I was pissed.
366
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:11,200
Yeah.
367
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,000
I mean, as you should be.
368
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:20,440
I mean, I as a recruiter, like obviously my clients are the ones that pay me.
369
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:25,720
I don't know if that's obvious, but my clients pay me.
370
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,360
They pay me a lot when I have them.
371
00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:31,360
Anybody listening?
372
00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:44,440
I just started, but yeah, I mean, I always, man, I know, I will never work for anybody
373
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:53,520
ever again for a lot of reasons, but I know what it's like for something, for a job not
374
00:20:53,520 --> 00:21:03,120
to work out, it impacts that candidate slash employee far more deeply than it does the
375
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:04,120
client.
376
00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:08,080
Like, yes, okay, you might've paid me, you might've trained them, whatever.
377
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:14,680
But like when my clients don't get even like from the beginning of like how much my candidates
378
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,800
are putting in from like an interview perspective, like they're not getting time off of their
379
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,680
job if they're employed to interview.
380
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:26,480
Obviously you're getting paid to interview them and they're changing that.
381
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:32,120
So it really, anyway, I find myself, even though my candidates don't pay me, I find
382
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:39,720
myself always getting in their corner a little bit more than my clients most of the time.
383
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,720
And that just, that makes me angry for you.
384
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:43,720
Yeah.
385
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,960
Oh, it's a power dynamic for sure.
386
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:52,040
The person that is applying does not have the power in the relationship.
387
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:53,040
Yeah.
388
00:21:53,040 --> 00:22:01,360
I mean, in a very strong candidate market, they can, they're higher level, but like,
389
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:08,520
but no, once you, once you sign the deal, it's like what the company says goes.
390
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:14,160
It's all about the bottom line as it should be in a business to a certain extent, you
391
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,240
are responsible to your shareholders and the board and all of these things and you have
392
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:24,080
to, but there's a way, there's a way to do it with your employees in mind.
393
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,960
And that's why I was a little bit surprised when you said that it would have a larger
394
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:35,040
global company because well, and my, my closest experience with a large company is Salesforce
395
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:42,560
because Dan, my husband has worked there for six years and he, I'll never forget when he
396
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,560
got shingles.
397
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:45,560
He could have died.
398
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:46,720
Like it got into his eye.
399
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:51,040
They didn't diagnose it for weeks and he looked like the elephant man.
400
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,920
Like I would, I would leave the house to cry because I didn't want to cry in front of him
401
00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:01,920
and I was giving him all these, like the valcyclovir and all these different drugs at different
402
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:02,920
times.
403
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,440
And then I was also trying to get him like stoned out of his mind on gummies so that
404
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,320
like he just wouldn't remember.
405
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:08,320
Yeah.
406
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,040
And, and Salesforce was like, yeah, take care of it.
407
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,320
Like you do you.
408
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:15,320
And they, and they did.
409
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:20,640
And they, and they wrapped their arms around him and they supported him through it.
410
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:26,680
And the same thing when his dad died recently and you know, he had a long paternity leave
411
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:27,680
anyway.
412
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:33,560
So, um, but I, I guess I would expect that from an early stage startup because you don't
413
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,920
have, always have the resources to cover for somebody if, but in your case you set the
414
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:39,920
right expectations.
415
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:45,400
So like there's no excuse in your case, but it's an interesting thing.
416
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:53,200
I think as people are deciding if they want to go to a larger company or a startup, um,
417
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,400
you know, there are generalities you can make between both.
418
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:02,560
And I would have expected that sort of behavior more from a startup than a larger company.
419
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,680
Yeah.
420
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,560
You know, reflecting back on it, I think the simplest answers are the right one.
421
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:14,560
The, the person and the company and the culture, which is just really hard to assess from the
422
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:15,560
outside.
423
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:16,560
Yeah.
424
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,760
And knowing what I know now, I would not suggest that company.
425
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:29,520
And I would tell, I would tell folks like this company is pretty ruthless and maybe
426
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:30,800
not completely honest.
427
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:31,800
Yeah.
428
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,920
And like they, you know, you, I mean you, you laid your cards out on the table, right?
429
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,800
I mean you said like, I have a, I have a young daughter, these are the hours I'm not going
430
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:42,840
to be available.
431
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,720
And you have that conversation either when you took the job or early on.
432
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:47,720
Yeah.
433
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,920
And they said, yeah, that's fine.
434
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:50,920
Yeah.
435
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:56,560
And, well, and it's just not a normal expectation that you will be available at five, six, seven
436
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:57,560
AM.
437
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:58,560
Right.
438
00:24:58,560 --> 00:24:59,560
Yeah.
439
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:00,560
Yeah.
440
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:01,560
Yeah.
441
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:02,560
Yeah.
442
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:03,560
Yeah.
443
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:04,560
Yeah.
444
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:05,560
Yeah.
445
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:06,560
And like I would, I think I would feel differently if it was like, you know, we tried to work
446
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:11,000
with you and you did, but like the moment it became a problem, their response was to
447
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,200
let me go.
448
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:22,120
So you said how, when five stars had that layoff that you, you felt okay about it because
449
00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:26,000
first of all, it was this guy that you respected, that you trusted, that was in your, you knew
450
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,320
was in your corner.
451
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:28,320
Yeah.
452
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:33,440
But you also knew the circumstances of the company and you knew it wasn't your fault.
453
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,000
Yeah.
454
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:42,800
So how did you feel in this situation?
455
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:52,840
Besides angry, hurt and embarrassed, hurt because I left, I left a good position at
456
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:58,960
Zora because I felt like this was an even better opportunity and more in line with my
457
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,560
values because they were, they were not a public company.
458
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:08,880
Zora was a public company and I actually did want to go work for a startup.
459
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,280
And they moved really fast and they were super excited and, and they're selling this vision
460
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,700
and then they pull it off from under me so fast.
461
00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:22,240
And unless you're like going bankrupt, which they weren't because they had just raised
462
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:28,160
a bunch of money and they spent a crap ton of money on their sales kickoff over $10 million
463
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:29,160
is the word.
464
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:30,160
Oh yeah.
465
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:31,160
Yeah.
466
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,160
Yeah.
467
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,960
And then I was like, this is the whole thing.
468
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:39,820
So I'm just like, that's, that's the level of like, we're going to do what's best for
469
00:26:39,820 --> 00:26:43,280
us to the extreme that I just don't respect.
470
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:44,280
Right.
471
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:49,400
And, and so in hindsight, it's obvious that that wasn't you.
472
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:50,400
Yeah.
473
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:57,480
But in the moment, yeah, of course, like thinking like, Oh, well, did I mess this up?
474
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:58,920
You know, could I have seen this?
475
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:00,640
How could I have played this differently?
476
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,160
Did you start to spiral a little bit where you're falling asleep and you're like, could
477
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:05,160
I have done this differently?
478
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,120
And I remember this conversation and not as bad as the next one.
479
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:10,120
Oh, okay.
480
00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:11,120
All right.
481
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:14,760
Not that I like hearing you in pain, but I also know that there's a light at the end
482
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,360
of the tunnel, at least where we are now, but yeah.
483
00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:21,240
So I lost that job.
484
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:27,040
Luckily I found another job pretty quick and it was at a company that my brother worked
485
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:28,040
at.
486
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:29,040
Okay.
487
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:30,040
Okay.
488
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:31,040
So I was like, Oh, I'm going to get to work.
489
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:32,040
And I was so excited.
490
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:33,040
It was in a space.
491
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,760
I kind of understood a product that works again.
492
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:37,760
I'm not going to name names.
493
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:38,760
Yeah.
494
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:39,760
Yeah.
495
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:40,760
Yeah.
496
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,560
And I was like, I'm going to get to work like around my brother, virtually speaking.
497
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:44,560
Yeah.
498
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:45,560
One of my brothers.
499
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:46,560
I have three brothers.
500
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,480
So I was like, I was bought in.
501
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,920
Is this the least you want or the most?
502
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,200
Well, like our parents are hippies.
503
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,320
So like we're, we all have it in us.
504
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:56,320
Okay.
505
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:57,320
Yeah.
506
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,280
But yes, this is the one, this is the one if, if by saying hippie, you mean something
507
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:02,280
else.
508
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:03,280
Yes.
509
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:04,280
Okay.
510
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:05,280
Yeah.
511
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,160
So you know how you kind of like try to set your mindset for things.
512
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,080
So I went into this one, like I'm going for it.
513
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:13,480
I'm going to be here for a long time.
514
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,000
I'm not going to jump in a year.
515
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,000
Yup.
516
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:17,000
Yup.
517
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,000
Yeah.
518
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,920
I was like, I'm going to be here like as long as my brother's here.
519
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,120
This is my forever home.
520
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:22,520
I'm going to be here for five years.
521
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:23,520
Yeah, exactly.
522
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:24,520
I was thinking like five years.
523
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:30,360
I was like, I'm going to be like a senior director, maybe a VP if I'm lucky.
524
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:31,360
This is the one.
525
00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:32,360
Yeah.
526
00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:34,880
And if it, you know, and if there's a good exit and I make some money, cool.
527
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:40,800
But like I was actually bought in to like the ride, the vision and the team.
528
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:41,800
Yeah.
529
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:42,800
Okay.
530
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,120
So, so far so good.
531
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,120
Yeah.
532
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:46,680
It did not work out that way.
533
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:53,680
So long story short, some folks there thought that I wasn't the right fit for that role.
534
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:58,000
And it was a customer success operations role.
535
00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,000
The first one.
536
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:00,000
Okay.
537
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,000
Is this a startup?
538
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,000
It is a startup.
539
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,000
Mid-stage startup probably.
540
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,000
Yeah, like B, B, C.
541
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:05,000
That makes sense.
542
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,000
Yeah.
543
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:15,920
And you know, I'm trying not to place a lot of blame on them necessarily, even though
544
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:21,720
this hurts, but it became apparent to me that they were actually looking for somebody who
545
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,080
was much more analyst heavy.
546
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:26,480
Okay.
547
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,680
Or like somebody who came from McKinsey or.
548
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:30,680
Right.
549
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:31,680
PwC or.
550
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:32,680
Yes.
551
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,080
And I bet you there was somebody in leadership that came from there and was like, why didn't
552
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,520
we hire somebody from my.
553
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:40,520
Yeah.
554
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:49,600
So the VPI reported into had come from Bain and to her credit, she did give coaching and
555
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,440
this wasn't as quick as the other one.
556
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:53,440
Okay.
557
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:59,520
But what was really frustrating for me is I really understood their go to market, their
558
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:06,040
customer, because it was very similar to five stars and they weren't leaning on me at all
559
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,920
for that side of my skillset.
560
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:15,280
And after a while, it got to the point where they put me on a, they wanted to put me on
561
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:16,280
a plan.
562
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,280
A PIP, performance improvement plan.
563
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:20,280
Yeah.
564
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,480
Were you not, were you missing metrics or like, what was the.
565
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,540
It was, I mean, there, there weren't metrics, right?
566
00:30:27,540 --> 00:30:28,540
It was.
567
00:30:28,540 --> 00:30:29,540
It was all subjective.
568
00:30:29,540 --> 00:30:30,540
It's all subjective.
569
00:30:30,540 --> 00:30:35,280
They put you on a PIP, a subjective PIP with subjective goals.
570
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,280
Okay.
571
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,380
I know, but like it's kind of hard in that role, right?
572
00:30:40,380 --> 00:30:45,160
Because like to drive changes in numbers in an operations role kind of by definition takes
573
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:46,160
a long time.
574
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,560
So you kind of have to rely on the work as a measure.
575
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:50,560
Okay.
576
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:51,560
I know.
577
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:56,640
I don't hold it against them because it's tough in that regard, but what was really tough
578
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:06,760
is they present this PIP and at the same time they say, Hey, we don't actually think you're
579
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,180
the right fit for this role.
580
00:31:08,180 --> 00:31:12,840
We think that it's unlikely that you're going to be able to successfully get through this
581
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:13,980
PIP.
582
00:31:13,980 --> 00:31:23,280
And even if you do, we don't think it's sustainable.
583
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,040
So wow.
584
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:33,440
Do you think, I mean, well, I was already in my head thinking like, well, and not because
585
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,660
I don't know this woman and it seems like she, you know, probably did the best that
586
00:31:37,660 --> 00:31:39,640
she could and had her heart in the right place.
587
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,960
But like she, she handled that part better than the previous one for sure.
588
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:51,040
But probably, you know, she's probably highly educated.
589
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,040
You'd have to be to be from game.
590
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,040
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
591
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,040
Yeah.
592
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:56,480
She, yeah, she's a smart lady.
593
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,120
Well, I'm sure she was, but that isn't synonymous with highly educated.
594
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:10,120
But do you ever wonder if she saw that you didn't go to college and held that against
595
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:11,120
you?
596
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:12,720
Or am I just creating a complex that doesn't?
597
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,760
Yeah, I don't, I don't think that was the case.
598
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:15,760
You don't think it was.
599
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:16,760
Okay.
600
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:17,760
Yeah, I don't know.
601
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,080
I think it was more like she has a model of how things should be done and I wasn't fitting
602
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:21,720
that model, whether that's right or wrong.
603
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,880
I'm not, I'm not actually debating.
604
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,320
And sometimes it is hard to know who you need to hire until you make that mistake.
605
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,560
But yeah, you were caught in the crossfire.
606
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:31,560
Yeah.
607
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,320
And they didn't want or value what I actually thought I brought to the table, which wasn't
608
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:43,600
like this guy is going to run regression analysis and come up with like a bunch of tableau reports
609
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:44,600
to run our business.
610
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:49,440
I'm like, no, no, no, I'm more of like a well-rounded, I understand how to deal with customers.
611
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:50,840
I understand some of the data.
612
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,440
I understand the systems.
613
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,040
I understand how they work together.
614
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,400
I understand how to work cross-functionally.
615
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,600
That's what I thought I was being hired for.
616
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,000
And it turns out that what they really wanted was like somebody from management consulting
617
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:08,040
to come in and just be like operational, operational, operational, operational.
618
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:16,360
So they gave me an option of going on the PIP or taking a severance and I took the severance.
619
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,200
Well yeah, when they present it like that.
620
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,320
Well yeah, I actually was going to try to like, I knew that they were going to present
621
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,620
a PIP and in my mind I was like, I'm going to get through it and execute and be fine.
622
00:33:26,620 --> 00:33:27,800
And then they presented it like that.
623
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,720
And I'm like, yeah, if no one's rooting for you, how the fuck are you supposed to?
624
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,920
Yeah, I was like, they don't actually expect.
625
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:34,920
Yeah.
626
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:41,120
So after that happened, that triggered an episode of depression that I've never experienced
627
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:42,120
before.
628
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:50,080
Like, I'd say at the lowest points of my life, on a scale of one through 10, maybe a four
629
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:51,880
or five.
630
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:59,360
And then I was like, I was like a three, like for a few months.
631
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:08,160
And it was just like, it was like every, like the spiraling, that was like, that was the
632
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:09,160
worst.
633
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,600
That was the worst time of my entire life.
634
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:18,100
And I did want to actually ask you about this is like, and not that they, and they're absolutely
635
00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:24,640
interconnected, codependent anxiety and depression.
636
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,360
For me, my anxiety always comes first.
637
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:34,720
And it's like, when the, when the wheels are turning and like, I can't get out of that
638
00:34:34,720 --> 00:34:39,600
spiral and I've done that for so long, then I get into depression and then it's just like
639
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,080
almost like a wasteland.
640
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,400
And it's like, I can't, I can't get out of bed.
641
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:53,600
I can't, and it's been, it's been since 2017, probably that I was like truly depressed and
642
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,240
there's no need to make the distinction, I guess.
643
00:34:56,240 --> 00:35:01,960
But for me, I do have that strong distinction, probably because it helps me track where I
644
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:02,960
am.
645
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:03,960
Yeah.
646
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:04,960
You know?
647
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:10,280
But what did, I mean, what did that look like for you?
648
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:17,560
Well, I like really struggled to do anything.
649
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:22,800
Like there were days where like all I could really do and like, I don't really play video
650
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:23,800
games a lot anymore.
651
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,920
But like there were days where like all I could do was play video games for a few hours
652
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,680
and try my best to keep up with like stuff around the house.
653
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,020
Yeah, there you go.
654
00:35:35,020 --> 00:35:38,520
And I just like, I wasn't enjoying time with my daughter.
655
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,280
Yeah, how old was Logan?
656
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:42,280
So this was just last year.
657
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,120
So she was like, she had just turned four.
658
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,360
Oh yeah, it was recent wasn't it?
659
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:47,360
Yeah.
660
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,000
This was right before update AI.
661
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,000
That's so crazy.
662
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,000
Yeah.
663
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:52,000
That's so crazy.
664
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:57,280
And it was, it was so like, so my wife and I, we do, we do marriage counseling, we have
665
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:03,280
for years and we, like our marriage counselor is great.
666
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,080
And she was like, you need to go see a psychiatrist.
667
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:09,200
Like this isn't therapy.
668
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:18,240
This is, this is psychiatry and likely a prescription like, like SSRIs antidepressants.
669
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:19,240
There's nothing wrong with that.
670
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:21,240
Well, yeah, but that's hard to hear.
671
00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:26,640
Well yeah, like, and, but I like, you know, we've all struggled, or I shouldn't say we
672
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:34,960
all, a lot of us have struggled with suicidal thoughts and it was really bad.
673
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,520
I wasn't going as far, cause like luckily when I think about like leaving my family,
674
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:44,680
leaving Logan, like that is strong enough to like help me stay away from the darkest
675
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:45,680
of thoughts.
676
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:51,320
But I had many thoughts of like, man, this would all go away if I,
677
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,000
Oh honey, I've been there.
678
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,000
I've been there.
679
00:36:54,000 --> 00:37:00,760
And I, yeah, I wondered if we were going to go there today and, and was reflecting a lot.
680
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,520
And I mean, I think it's so normal to think about it.
681
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:13,520
I think where, and I, I will never forget the week.
682
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:18,000
I'm sure I've told you this, the week that both Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade killed
683
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,000
themselves.
684
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,440
I was like, that's it.
685
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,520
I'm not going to not talk about this.
686
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:28,200
I'm not going to like, I'm never going to shy away from this because I don't want anyone
687
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:33,280
to feel like that's not like that.
688
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,960
There's something wrong with them if they're going there.
689
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:42,240
But yeah, there is, I think it's important to also be able to distinguish like, when
690
00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:44,200
is it like scary, scary.
691
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,400
And that's when you start to plan.
692
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:47,400
Yeah.
693
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:53,480
Um, but for me, like when I was in college and was hospitalized on suicide watch, like
694
00:37:53,480 --> 00:38:00,720
I could never, I could never go there because I couldn't imagine doing that to my parents.
695
00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:01,720
That's you.
696
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:05,560
But that's not a great reason to live either.
697
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,320
It's like, it's not a great reason to live.
698
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,320
It's just like, just not a good enough reason to kill myself.
699
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:11,320
Not to kill myself.
700
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:12,320
Right?
701
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:17,560
No, but that's how, that's like, that was what like thinking of my family, that's what,
702
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:23,400
that's what kept me out of like getting to the two or the one on the scale.
703
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:30,240
So, so I mean, we've, we've talked about this a little bit offline, but how do you, how
704
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:33,640
do you get out of that?
705
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:38,040
Um, yeah, this is an area I'm not actually particularly good at.
706
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:44,800
And I think men, we haven't generally speaking had this modeled for us, which is to like
707
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,480
talk to people about it.
708
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:47,480
Right.
709
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:48,880
Men bottle it up and we push it down.
710
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,480
My brothers and I joke that like, no, no, you don't talk about things.
711
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:57,640
You push it down way down.
712
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:58,680
And kudos to my brothers.
713
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:05,000
We have over the years have tried to, to be there for each other and to talk about these
714
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:06,240
things and we still struggle.
715
00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:09,180
We still struggle to talk about negative things.
716
00:39:09,180 --> 00:39:12,800
Do your brothers have similar mental health stuff?
717
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:13,800
Yeah.
718
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:14,800
My sister doesn't.
719
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,160
And frankly, my husband doesn't either.
720
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:22,000
We have our own struggles and it usually, it revolves around different things.
721
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:29,360
It we, and like nobody from the outside would ever accuse us of being depressed, which is,
722
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,160
you know, as much as I've learned, that's, that's part of the problem.
723
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,040
That's part of the problem.
724
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,040
So yeah.
725
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,360
So like trying to get better at that, talking to my wife, talking to professionals.
726
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:48,400
Um, but fortunately this one was so bad and so prolonged that it did take antidepressants
727
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:59,520
to like kind of just like reset the whatever set of neurochemistry plus self loathing,
728
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,640
you know, internal dialogue that was going on.
729
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:03,640
I, okay.
730
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,840
First of all, I don't, I don't love that you said unfortunately, because I don't think
731
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:08,640
there's any, sorry, you're right.
732
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:09,640
You're right.
733
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:11,520
I don't think there's any like best way to do it.
734
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,040
And like I, this time that's what it took.
735
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:16,400
Right.
736
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,640
And I remember actually Mickey, when you and I started talking and like immediately we're
737
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,000
like, okay, we're talking every week.
738
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,800
Like you become like one of my best friends and I haven't even met you in person yet.
739
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,280
That'll change.
740
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:32,440
Um, but that was about three weeks after you getting on Prozac.
741
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:33,440
Yeah.
742
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,720
And you were like, I'm a different person.
743
00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:36,720
I, yeah.
744
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:37,720
Yeah.
745
00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:38,720
I've discovered chat GPT.
746
00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:39,720
Oh yeah.
747
00:40:39,720 --> 00:40:41,720
That was a good, that was good timing too.
748
00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:42,720
Yeah.
749
00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:46,200
Well, everything happens for a reason, but yeah.
750
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,040
I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with there.
751
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:51,600
Isn't no, absolutely.
752
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:52,600
There absolutely is.
753
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:59,400
And, but, but I, I get that too of like, when I ask you like, how did you get out of it?
754
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:04,840
Actually let me, let me unpack the, unfortunately, cause I think that that's a hint at one of
755
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:11,200
my own issues, which is I like to be able to fix things myself.
756
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:15,520
So like I was frustrated with myself that I couldn't get myself out of the depression.
757
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:16,680
Like I could see it.
758
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:17,680
I knew it was bad.
759
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,240
I knew I didn't want it, but I literally couldn't get myself out.
760
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:25,160
So I say, unfortunately, because there is a part of me that felt like I failed.
761
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:26,160
Right.
762
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:27,160
Right.
763
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:32,240
And I had to give up that narrative.
764
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:34,800
The narrative of the Mr. Fixer.
765
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:36,840
I'm a, I'm a failure.
766
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,000
Oh, okay.
767
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,000
To get past it.
768
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,000
Yeah.
769
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,400
Because a lot of my self-worth has been tied up in intelligence.
770
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:49,880
I'm learning how to let that go.
771
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:56,200
But if you can't fix something, you must not be smart enough.
772
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,200
Most of the smartest people have the most issues.
773
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:00,200
Yes.
774
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,840
But that's, that's like, that's always been, and it's still a problem I deal with.
775
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:11,360
So you know, I say, I said, unfortunately, because underlying that is I want to be able
776
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:19,920
to, I want to feel like I am good enough, smart enough, you know, whatever enough, enough.
777
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:20,920
Enough.
778
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:21,920
Yeah.
779
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,960
To do it.
780
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,440
And I couldn't.
781
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:37,000
I is actually was the other thing I wanted to talk about today was like, where does self-esteem
782
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,000
come from?
783
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,360
Because like, I know for me, it changes, right?
784
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:48,200
Like it, I was this like little, like adorable little ballerina and tutus when I was really
785
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:49,200
young.
786
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:57,220
And then like, I was super, super like straight A studious, like super smart teacher's pet.
787
00:42:57,220 --> 00:43:02,540
And then like, went to high school with like the smartest people like in the universe and
788
00:43:02,540 --> 00:43:05,840
was like middle of the road and couldn't rely on that anymore.
789
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:10,440
And then like, when I anyway, I had a dark time in college.
790
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,600
And then when I got into the workforce, it was all about chasing the money.
791
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,600
And like, I wanted to prove that like, I could make my own money and I could buy myself that
792
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:23,560
Mercedes and I can do all these things on my own without a man.
793
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:31,320
And then like, had some tough times, but then like, started my business.
794
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:37,080
And it was like really important for me to have everybody know that like, even though
795
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,680
my husband has a good job and he's making money, like I make more money than he does.
796
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,560
And like, I started my business, I'm fucking badass, I'm making all this money.
797
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:50,360
And then this year, you know, it's basically nothing like almost zero.
798
00:43:50,360 --> 00:44:04,200
And I think it's actually the first time that I haven't changed my self worth to something
799
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,080
else other than maybe my daughter.
800
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:08,080
But I think that's okay.
801
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:09,080
I think that's okay.
802
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:10,080
Every parent does that.
803
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:11,080
Yeah.
804
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:18,200
And, but like, you know, a lot of times, and I think that's why these layoffs or firings
805
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:26,280
or whatever it's like you to be successful and to be engaged, you give so much of yourself
806
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:27,720
to this employer.
807
00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:33,560
But at the end of the day, it's bottom line is that it's not you.
808
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:38,960
Even the best managers, the best cultures, the end of the day, you don't matter more
809
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,240
than the bottom line period.
810
00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:49,200
And like, I made that mistake in my younger years of not understanding that and had some
811
00:44:49,200 --> 00:45:03,480
more very similar experiences as you and and I'm surprised that I'm not like, not really
812
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:08,520
going through it right now because like, because I'm not making any money.
813
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:13,600
And I don't have like, I don't have that thing to be like, this is what I am.
814
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,960
Yeah, I'm just, I'm just being me.
815
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:18,400
I'm just following my heart.
816
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:23,260
I'm just doing what I think hopefully will be valuable both to me, but other people.
817
00:45:23,260 --> 00:45:26,560
Maybe this podcast will see.
818
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,400
But also like taking care of my family and taking care of the house since we're not,
819
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,400
you know, I'm a housekeeper.
820
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:40,800
Yours was, she got, she's amazing.
821
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,000
And unfortunately, she's sick.
822
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:48,520
Yeah, no, I, I, and sorry for the record, I like, I did not grow up with money and I
823
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:54,480
am so, so, so, so, so, so, so grateful that I'm at a point in my life where I can afford
824
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:55,480
that help.
825
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,160
And, and, and I will never not be grateful for it.
826
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:00,600
Yeah, yeah.
827
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:06,400
Well, and honestly, and Dan is like, he's like, yeah, like maybe we should get a housekeeper
828
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,880
in here to like, you know, just do some things.
829
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:14,720
And I'm like, I literally like, like $200 even once a month.
830
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:17,240
I'm like, like, do you know what I could buy?
831
00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:22,320
Do you know how many Amazon dresses I could buy with $200?
832
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:23,320
I think about the time.
833
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,040
I think about the time it takes to deep clean your house.
834
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,180
Yeah, no, I get, I get on my knees.
835
00:46:30,180 --> 00:46:35,800
And I, I've been there with the scrubbing and I'm like, I'm getting into the, like,
836
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:41,920
the molding baseboards, which I'll tell you, none of our housekeepers ever got into the
837
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:42,920
base.
838
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:43,920
Nobody ever cleans the baseboards.
839
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:49,000
Well, and that's what I'm saying is now, like, I was already very particular about my housekeepers
840
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:53,560
and now I'm going to be really particular because anyway, we're off topic.
841
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:59,840
So you, you talked about money and I want, I actually, I want to touch on that.
842
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:07,200
I'm human just like everybody else, but it's, I have had to come to the reckoning of, oh,
843
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,800
like, money is useful for many things.
844
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:16,160
And I actually, I want money to further reinforce my values, like being able to spend time how
845
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:22,720
I want to being able to take care of my family, being able to take care of my extended family.
846
00:47:22,720 --> 00:47:23,720
That's what I want money for.
847
00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:24,720
Yeah.
848
00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:29,080
I mean, I think, man, I mean, it's such a personal thing, but also like, I'm glad that
849
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,120
money has become less personal.
850
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:38,400
Like for me, it's easy to talk about with people because like, as a recruiter, like
851
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,640
I ask people all the time, what do they make all the time?
852
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,760
I know whatever I like, I probably could nail on the head what you're making pretty closely.
853
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,120
I probably make less.
854
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:49,120
I probably make less.
855
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:50,120
And we've had that conversation.
856
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:51,120
And so I probably could.
857
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:52,120
Yeah, you have Mickey.
858
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:53,120
I probably, but that's okay.
859
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,120
Like I made that decision.
860
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,720
But yeah, whatever.
861
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:06,320
But like my, my comfort in like talking to people about money is, is probably like pushing
862
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,000
it a little bit for most people.
863
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:18,640
But like, I think that's also like, that's what, that's what fosters financial illiteracy
864
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,000
is when everybody's keeping it so close to the chest.
865
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:26,440
And I think it's actually things are moving in the right direction where you're, you have
866
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:31,360
to actually say like what you're going to pay for this role and all that.
867
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:37,560
So it's easier to have more pay equity, but like being able to talk to talk openly about
868
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,000
like, cause we all have the ups and downs.
869
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,760
Well, not everybody, some people like never have to worry about that.
870
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,920
Being born rich is, is a double edged sword.
871
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:51,320
We all know that, you know, if you don't go through struggles, like if your character
872
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:57,160
isn't tested, if you aren't forced to like figure out your way through and not, I want
873
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:01,720
to say that like, I don't think that that's the only way, but that's what people are,
874
00:49:01,720 --> 00:49:02,720
that's what people say sometimes.
875
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:03,720
Sure.
876
00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:12,000
Um, well, it's kind of, I mean, back to the mental health stuff, like I remember Dan in
877
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:18,320
2017, he had just started at Salesforce and he's been there for five or six years.
878
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:25,760
So it's been since then, and that was like my year of like really like I was doing so
879
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:30,080
many different jobs and I was coming home from waitressing at this restaurant that like
880
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,020
nobody was going there and they were over staffing and I was like literally putting
881
00:49:33,020 --> 00:49:39,920
my pennies on the carpet and like seeing how close I could get to like my half of rent
882
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:45,480
and then everything else he would cover and then groceries and just like basics we were
883
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:51,960
putting on credit cards and so we got into debt and um, and so that was financially harder
884
00:49:51,960 --> 00:50:03,840
than we are now, but now it's, you know, also not ideal and, and I would call him those
885
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:08,880
mornings when I couldn't get out of bed and I would call him and he would be at Salesforce
886
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:15,960
at work, this new job, big job and be like, I'm not okay, like I'm not okay right now.
887
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:16,960
Can you call me back?
888
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:23,320
Like talk to me and you know, and I was jealous and like just all these things and, and there
889
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:31,600
was one time we went to hippie hill, um, for oyster fest and my parents live near Golden
890
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:37,960
Gate park and we went there and we sat on the hill and I just, I just started crying.
891
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,400
I couldn't stop crying and my parents picked me up and we went back to the house and they
892
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:45,720
were like, they were like, Sarah, I know you can't afford to go to therapy right now.
893
00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:50,100
And it turned out also, I had been on my medication for seven years and like, I really needed
894
00:50:50,100 --> 00:50:56,040
to switch it, but like I couldn't afford a psychiatrist for like 150 bucks a week or
895
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,800
whatever and they were like, we're going to pay for it.
896
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:04,520
And like basically this is your intervention, but the, the thing that's crazy to me is that
897
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:10,440
Dan then like, you know, fast forward a couple of years and like, I'm on my high horse again
898
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,960
and I'm making all this money and whatever.
899
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:22,320
And um, now it's gone down a bit since then, but, um, but I remember being like, what the
900
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:26,320
fuck did you see in me?
901
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,480
I mean, I could, I literally couldn't get out of bed and I think at that point we were
902
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:38,000
maybe engaged, but we weren't married and you know, I think it's also having those people
903
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:45,720
in your corner and, and I think it's one of the reasons why I feel so close to you is
904
00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:50,360
like, you've also been in my corner and I think you and I are able to talk about the
905
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:59,720
hard stuff, but also like, you know, I remember you saying like, well, I'm not going to buy
906
00:51:59,720 --> 00:52:03,360
your courses, but I'll root for you.
907
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:11,640
But, but, um, but no, I mean, it's God, like what, what, what makes a life right?
908
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:16,780
And like, you know, you're doing great now and like, there's going to be a time I bet
909
00:52:16,780 --> 00:52:20,800
when you're hopefully not as down as you were before, but you will be down a little bit
910
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:22,320
and I want to be there.
911
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:29,080
I think that's like, that's something that I've learned over time is that there's peaks
912
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:34,080
and valleys, but my goal is to just continuously push that baseline up.
913
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:40,360
And when there are tough times, now I have more strategies now.
914
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,200
Like my friends?
915
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:44,200
On occasion.
916
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:55,480
Um, so there, but there's also like, um, we go through these like tough times and it,
917
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:59,000
as much as it sucked and I did not enjoy it, like it helps me learn.
918
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:00,000
Yeah.
919
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,840
And part of the reason I, I part of the reason I want to be wealthy wealthy so that when
920
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,800
those tough times come, money is not the problem.
921
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:07,800
Yes.
922
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:14,680
And that's why I want to make money more than anything is because we have no idea what's
923
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:16,920
going to happen with AI.
924
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:17,920
The world is burning.
925
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,160
I mean, look at what happened with Lahaina.
926
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:25,920
Like it's just devastating and that's happening everywhere.
927
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:33,160
And the life that our kids are going to lead is going to be hard in ways that like we can't
928
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:34,800
even imagine yet.
929
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:41,360
And the people that have money are going to survive and they're going to have it a lot
930
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:42,360
easier.
931
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,320
That's how it works.
932
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:53,320
That same logic applies to the optimistic side of that scenario.
933
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:57,040
Just like there are going to be challenges ahead that we can't imagine, there are going
934
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,600
to be good things ahead that we can't imagine.
935
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:06,000
It's actually kind of easier for us to imagine the difficult scenarios.
936
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,000
And we got daughters, man.
937
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:14,080
Oh, I'm, I'm, I'm well aware that I think the, the point you make around wanting for
938
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:18,920
your kids to rely on you, that's what I think about.
939
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:22,680
I think, I think about Logan, like she's going to experience tough times.
940
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:24,920
She'll probably get bullied.
941
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:28,320
She'll probably struggle with image issues.
942
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:30,520
Like there's a multitude of things that can happen.
943
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:32,960
I sincerely hope the worst stuff doesn't happen.
944
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:34,720
I know.
945
00:54:34,720 --> 00:54:39,720
But if it does, I don't want her to ever feel like I'm not there unconditionally.
946
00:54:39,720 --> 00:54:41,480
I'm here unconditionally.
947
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,320
Doesn't matter what happens.
948
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:49,200
And yes, money would be a fantastic, will be a fantastic tool to help in those situations.
949
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:53,520
That's goes to my point of like, I don't want it to be a problem because I've, I've been
950
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:59,800
in this situation where it is a problem and I, and I know it's a huge, huge, huge stressor.
951
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:12,640
So one last kind of intense question is, do you feel like you still, I mean, I imagine
952
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,920
you still were there for her unconditionally, but like, how did that affect you as a parent
953
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,720
when you were in that dark time last year?
954
00:55:19,720 --> 00:55:22,520
Yeah, it was really hard to be there for her at all.
955
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:28,360
And it made me angry and it made me angry at myself.
956
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,520
Sure.
957
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:31,960
And you want to be brutally honest?
958
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:32,960
Yeah.
959
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,600
Right now I'm talking to you and there's a part of my brain that says she's likely home
960
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,640
somewhere and I'm not giving her my attention.
961
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:41,640
Get the fuck out of here.
962
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:43,320
Well you just keep talking to me.
963
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:44,320
No.
964
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:45,320
I know.
965
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,440
Well, it's Friday and I got a glass of wine here.
966
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:49,680
I'm talking to one of my favorite people in the whole world.
967
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:51,160
But like, parent guilt.
968
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:52,160
Oh yeah.
969
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:53,560
I try to get myself some slack.
970
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:55,160
I spend a lot of time with Logan.
971
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:56,520
I know you do.
972
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:58,000
I've always wanted to be a father.
973
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,280
I take a lot of pride in being a father.
974
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:05,720
That is a part of my value and it's a part of why I'm working my ass off with Chachie
975
00:56:05,720 --> 00:56:13,320
PT and my and our company and why and why I stay optimistic.
976
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:22,800
Because a lot of people say we want to go back to the way it was.
977
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,440
And I don't think that I think that's the wrong way of thinking about it.
978
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:26,440
Because guess what?
979
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,160
I haven't done time travel yet.
980
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:30,120
Hopefully maybe one day.
981
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:31,120
Hopefully.
982
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:32,320
Well we'll see.
983
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:33,320
You watched Family Guy?
984
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:34,320
I have.
985
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:36,240
I've watched many things on time travel.
986
00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:39,760
I know it's a slippery, slippery set.
987
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:45,200
No, but my point is like there is no going back.
988
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:48,120
That we have one direction of time.
989
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:52,040
And if you want to go back to the way it was, you're fighting the wrong battle and you're
990
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:53,680
asking the wrong question.
991
00:56:53,680 --> 00:57:01,360
So I stay optimistic, not rosy, everything's going to be perfect, but I stay optimistic
992
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:04,160
that there is a future ahead of us.
993
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:10,100
That it is on the whole better than what came before it.
994
00:57:10,100 --> 00:57:16,940
There will be new challenges and I'm going to actively participate in crafting that and
995
00:57:16,940 --> 00:57:20,760
preparing Logan for those challenges because she will face them.
996
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:32,200
Yeah, I mean and it's all about community and I think community is so different now.
997
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:38,400
We used to rely on who was physically next to us or who was physically in the office
998
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:39,400
with us.
999
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:43,280
I don't know, I think about it a lot, Mickey.
1000
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:48,200
You and Jonel are two of my closest friends.
1001
00:57:48,200 --> 00:58:02,240
I consider you guys both professional colleagues in a way, but also friends in the sense where
1002
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:13,040
you get me so deeply and you support me and I support you in a way that I feel like, and
1003
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,680
Jonel's actually coming out to Colorado to visit me next month.
1004
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:17,680
That's awesome.
1005
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:19,800
I haven't even met her yet.
1006
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:26,960
It's to your point, like, you know, if I were, granted I never liked going into an office,
1007
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:31,000
but like if we were all in the, you know, we're in the Bay Area and going in and then
1008
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:32,600
it's like, would I have met you?
1009
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:33,600
Would I have met Jonel?
1010
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:36,920
Like would I, like, you don't know.
1011
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:42,320
Or would we have the time to cultivate the things that are meaningful?
1012
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:54,360
And like, I will tell you full stop, my conversations with you and her, like fill up my cup.
1013
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:59,040
I feel the same.
1014
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:04,840
That's why I invest.
1015
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:08,000
So how much money are you investing?
1016
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:15,280
At my normal hourly rate, multiplied by the opportunity cost of like the things I'm not
1017
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:16,280
doing.
1018
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:25,200
Oh well, Mickey, gosh, I just, there's nobody I would rather hang out with on a Friday afternoon
1019
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:26,200
with a glass of wine.
1020
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:27,200
Okay.
1021
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:28,960
There are like five people that are like, are at least at your level.
1022
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:29,960
Yeah.
1023
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:30,960
We could all hang out together.
1024
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:31,960
Yes.
1025
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:33,960
Well, you have to come out, you have to come out to Colorado.
1026
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:34,960
I want to.
1027
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:36,840
It's in, I've been wanting to take my parents out there for a long time.
1028
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:42,320
It's just, it's like every time we want to do it, it's like, it's not, it doesn't work.
1029
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:43,320
All right.
1030
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:44,320
I have to go clean the house.
1031
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:45,320
Okay, Mickey.
1032
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:46,320
Big cuts.
1033
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:47,320
Thank you.
1034
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:48,320
Thank you for having me on.
1035
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:49,320
Thank you for being here.
1036
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:50,320
Of course.
1037
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:51,320
I'll come back anytime.
1038
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:52,320
Cool.
1039
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:53,320
Sweet.
1040
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:54,320
Have a good weekend.
1041
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:55,320
I'll talk to you next week.
1042
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:56,320
You too, darling.
1043
00:59:56,320 --> 01:00:11,280
Bye.
