Jonathan Block: Hello and welcome back to the Stumble. is part two of my conversation with Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and his wife, Becky, recorded the Attorney General's office at Belmont University in Nashville. ⁓ If haven't listened to part one yet, I encourage you to start there ⁓ because week the story takes a turn. ⁓ We back up after Becky Gonzales has just told her husband, ⁓ White counsel Alberto Gonzales, that they are broke and he needs to leave government service to go make money. I love that the last thing Judge Gonzales told me was, don't mess it up. That's what I tell all the youngsters, don't mess up. Well, Mr. Attorney General, I have done my best to take your instructions to heart. A few things struck me during that conversation. The first is something Becky said near the end. She said, what I always wanted was a home, and he my home. I've had a home the whole time. ⁓ They have three sons and no money saved for tuition. Alberto tells the president this news and President Bush says, I've got plans for you. Please stay. And then the day after the 2004 election, President Bush asked him to become the 80th attorney general of the United States. But two years later, everything fell apart in a scandal that would become known as the US Attorney Skin. Second, I'm struck by all the people who reached out when Attorney General and Becky Gonzales were at their lowest. And then some of their closest friends did hang on. Some of their closest friends reached out and said, going to dinner with you tonight on the day you resigned. ⁓ Out on the town where people will see you. while people considered it remarkable at the time by today's standards it wouldn't even register, truly. And what the Gonzales' thought would be a dream job ended up in a political firestorm. Eventually, President Bush asked Judge Gonzales to resign. Over time, the Wall Street Journal would call the scandal much ado about nothing, but at the time, it was devastating. And what followed is what Becky calls the wilderness years. The phone stopped ringing, will see us together. Friends simply vanished and job opportunities disappeared like steam. Becky said the pain was so deep they sat side by side in silence because words wouldn't come. But they held onto love, onto faith, ⁓ onto their family mantra, it's got to work out. And eventually it did, ⁓ in the way they ever imagined. I'll let you hear it from them. ⁓ are Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and Becky Gonzales. ⁓ I want to be the friend shows up for you. ⁓ you're listening to this right now in your own wilderness, ⁓ see you. ⁓ you're wondering if the people around you will stick or if the job you're counting on will come through ⁓ if the wilderness will ever end. ⁓ I'm going to quote Attorney General Gonzales's dad, ⁓ got to work out. ⁓ rooting for you. ⁓ People who didn't even know them, like a banker in New Orleans or a owner in Dallas. And I can't help but ask when my friends are down, when they're facing their darkest days, do I have the presence of mind to reach out with action? Or do I look away because I don't want to face their pain and the possibility of my own pain? If you're a friend and I've left you when you needed it most, I'm really sorry. Next time on SublinBlox, I'm honored to bring you a conversation with Sue Gordon, who spent 30 years at the CIA and rose to become the Deputy Director of National Intelligence, the number two intelligence official in the country. Sue personally briefed Presidents Reagan, George H.W. Bush, Clinton, George W. Bush, Obama, and Trump. After stepping down from the job she loved and losing her husband Jim of 43 years, she told me something about a year ago that changed how I face adversity. She said, the way forward is through unexpected pain and loss. It is the door to what's next. And it's the only door, Jonathan. To be the first to hear that conversation with Sue Gordon, please follow Stumbling Blocks on your favorite podcast app. And if the show is worthy of your time, I'd be grateful if you shared it with a friend or on social media. I'll see you next time on The Stumble. Judge Gonzales, Mrs. Gonzales, thank you for coming back. ⁓ We're going to now to the spring of 2007. You're the sitting Attorney General. ⁓ In that spring, a series of emerged that is now known as ⁓ .
Becky Gonzales: Gonzales, and Mrs. Gonzales, thank you for coming back. We're going to move now to the spring of 2007. You're the sitting attorney general. And in that spring, a series of events emerged that is now known as, colloquially known as the US Attorney scandal. But for context, it was a series of events that now would not even make page B75 of the New York Times. ⁓ In fact, the Wall Street Journal has subsequently called it much ado about nothing. ⁓ And so I wonder if, just briefly, you can describe what happened. Sure.
Jonathan Block: the colloquially known as the U.S. Attorney scandal. But for context, it was a series of events that now would not even make page B 75 of the New York Times. In fact, the Wall Street Journal has subsequently called it much ado about nothing. And so I wonder if just briefly you can describe what happened. Sure. So at beginning of the second term, like in most administrations, often you'll see turnover. Yep.
Judge Gonzales: page B75 of the New York Times. In fact, the Wall Street Journal has subsequently called it much ado about nothing. And so I wonder if just briefly you can describe what happened. Sure. ⁓ So at the beginning of the second term, like in most administrations, often you'll see turnover in ⁓ high profile positions. And so I'm the attorney general and the White House has asked me to look at the U.S. because ⁓ that's an area where a Republican, a President has the opportunity to credential an up-and-coming star around the country and give them some, you know, some great experience and so direct it to look at various U.S. attorneys around the country. And so my team did that and we identified, I guess, five to seven and ⁓
Jonathan Block: So I'm the attorney general and the White House has asked me to look at the US attorneys. Because that's an area where a Republican, a president has the opportunity to credential an unbecoming star.
Judge Gonzales: made a recommendation. A lot of people think that I fired them. I don't have the authority to fire a presidential appointee. They're printed by the president. I can't fire them. But, you know, I was asked to look at these and working with my team, submitted some names, and they had served their full four-year term, their statutory term, and they served with the pleasure of the president.
Jonathan Block: Right. They're probably by the President, can't find them. I was asked to look at these and worked with my team, submitted some names, and they had served their full four-year term, their statutory term, and they served the pleasure of the President, so he can remove them. And that's what we did, and we're making a change. What we failed to realize, though, is that
Becky Gonzales: They serve with pleasure of the President, he can remove them. And that's what we did, we made a change. What we failed to realize though is that Democrats had taken control of the Senate. So immediately there were accusations that these U.S. trunks had been improperly removed. And that began a series of more accusations and hearing.
Judge Gonzales: you know, he can remove them. And that's what we did. We made a change. What we failed to realize, though, is that the Democrats had taken control of the Senate. And so immediately, were, you know, accusations that these U.S. attorneys had been improperly removed. And that began a series of, you know, more accusations. and hearings and me having to go up to the Hill to testify to try to defend these removals. What made it difficult for me at the time was I tried to be respectful of these individuals and explaining why they were removed. You don't want to say, you know, we just thought they weren't doing a good job. We wanted better people. so, you know, when I look back at some of my testimony, I probably could have been
Jonathan Block: a series of more accusations and hearings and me having to up to the Hill testify to try to defend these rules. What made difficult for me at the time was I tried to be respectful of these individuals in explaining why they were moved. We just thought they weren't doing a good job, we wanted better people.
Judge Gonzales: I could have done it in a way that I think would have—may have cut off some of the criticism and accusations. But nonetheless, ⁓ the Democrats were making the accusation that they had been removed for improper political reasons. And that continued for ⁓ quite some period of time. And there were number of hearings. ⁓ I mean, it got pretty serious. remember one time, President Bush from time to time when I would see him, he would make sure he said, are you okay, Fredo? That was my nickname, Fredo. I think it was because early on,
Jonathan Block: I it got pretty serious. ⁓ remember one time, President Bush and Tom Conn, when I would sing it, he would make sure he said, are you okay, Fredo? That was my nickname. Fredo, yeah, why did he call you Fredo? I think it was because early on, maybe he thought my name was Alfredo. said, I don't know. But I really know, but I don't know. He had lots of nicknames for lots of people, right? Exactly.
Judge Gonzales: Maybe he thought my name was Alfredo instead of Alberto. don't know. But I don't know. ⁓ Exactly. ⁓ ⁓ he even told me one time when he'd gone to Mexico, the president of Mexico had said, is there something we can do to help ⁓ Gonzales? I mean, ⁓ were stepping up and saying, what can we do to to help the attorney general? ⁓ was tough. It really was. because I knew that I'd done. ⁓
Becky Gonzales: It got pretty serious. remember one time, President Bush from time time when I would see him, would make sure he said, are you okay, Fredo? That was my nickname. Fredo, why did he call you Fredo? I think it was because early on, maybe he thought my name was Alfredo instead of Alberto. We don't really know. I don't know. You had lots of nicknames for lots of people. Exactly. So he would tell me one time when he had gone to Mexico,
Jonathan Block: Oh my attorney general. It was tough, it really was. I knew that I done nothing wrong. the Democrats kept pushing this. think part of it was two other reasons. One, I it was concerned Bush to the people of the Supreme Court. The Democrats did not want a Republican president to be the first Hispanic on the
Judge Gonzales: It done nothing wrong. But the Democrats kept pushing this. think part of it was two other reasons. One, I think there was concern Bush was going to put him on the Supreme Court. And I think the Democrats did not want a Republican president to put the first Hispanic on the Supreme Court. And two, because I've been in White House counsel when a lot of these controversial terrorism practices occurred,
Jonathan Block: And two, because I've been in White House counsel, a lot of these controversial terrorism practices occur.
Judge Gonzales: although most, if not all, were lawful, I was viewed as the architect. Even though John Ashcroft was the Attorney General, it was his Department of Justice that had issued all these little opinions. Nonetheless, I was sort of used as responsible for everything. And I think the Democrats viewed this as way to hurt President Bush, hurt the Republican brand, to keep me off the court, and to, you know, punish, I guess, the administration for some of the terrorism policies.
Becky Gonzales: practices occurred, although most, if not all, were lawful, I was viewed as the architect, even though John Ashcrom was the Attorney General, it was his Department of Justice that had issued all these little opinions. Nonetheless, I was sort of viewed as responsible for everything. And I think the Democrats viewed this as a way to hurt President Bush, hurt the Republican brand, to keep me off the court, and to punish, I guess, the administration for some of that terrorism policy. But this is one of the foreshadowings. This moment in time was one of the foreshadowings of how Washington works. Because there was a sitting senator from a particular state who had been lobbying, a Democratic senator who had been lobbying Al to get rid of this U.S. attorney. And yet, when he got rid of this U.S. attorney, that same person, that same senator stabbed Al in the back. about how the injustice of what he has done. was after asking him for a long time to do it. Wanting this person gone because I don't I remember the names but I'm not going to say them. Yeah, was so political though. The point was the point was people will do anything.
Jonathan Block: And yet, when he got rid of this US attorney, that same person, that same senator stabbed Al in the back about the injustice of what he has done. After asking him to do it. After asking him for a long time to do it, wanting this person gone.
Judge Gonzales: After asking him to do it. wanting this person gone because I don't I remember the names but I'm not gonna say them. Yeah we're not gonna talk about names but anyway so yeah it's so political though the the point was if the point was though people will do anything to get power and I think it also was a build-up to the next election they wanted to hurt Bush wanted to make sure
Jonathan Block: Sure, sure. It was so political though. Yeah, so political. The point was people will do anything to get power.
Becky Gonzales: to get power and I think it also was a build up to the next election. wanted, the Democrats wanted to make sure that the next president was going to be a Democrat and I think the Republicans were trying to make sure the next president was going to be a Republican. And I think that had a lot to do with our fate in D.C.
Judge Gonzales: that the next president was going to be a Democrat and I think the Republicans were trying to make sure the next president was going to be a Republican. And I think that had a lot to do with our fate in DC. What was that moment like for you as you started to see the way that power corrupts?
Jonathan Block: was a build up to the next election. The Democrats wanted to make sure that the next president was going to be a Democrat, and I think the Republicans were trying to make sure the next president was going to be a Republican. And I think that had a lot to do with our fate in D.C. What was that moment like for you as you started to see the way that power corrupts people and absolute power corrupts absolutely Becky?
Becky Gonzales: What was it like for me? But I almost expected it of the Democrats, but when it happened with our Republican friends, it was quite quite shocking. Well, people that were even friends turned their backs. People that worked in the White House. Painful.
Jonathan Block: When you saw people, when you saw the senator turn his back on the judge or I would imagine friends of yours who were friendly beforehand. Yeah, what happened with Republican friends? Is that right? Just turn their backs. What did that mean? What did that look like?
Becky Gonzales: It was very painful. Well, when the only person in D.C. that was supporting Al defending him at one point was the president.
Jonathan Block: And when you say turned their backs, what do you mean? did you know? Like when the only person in DC that was supporting out defending him at one point was the president.
Judge Gonzales: ⁓ I was calling people in the White House ⁓ are we doing? What's the plan? What's the strategy? And I remember CNN called ⁓ on one of the, did a story about Al, ⁓ a very negative story, then they said, and at end of the interview they said, ⁓ at the end the story they said, ⁓ we've called the White House ⁓ for comment.
Becky Gonzales: ⁓ And, know, I calling in the White House saying, ⁓ who's what we What's the plan? What's the strategy? ⁓ And I CNN called ⁓ on one of the they did a story about ⁓ a very negative story and then they said, and at the end of the interview they said, at the end of the story they said, we've called the White House for comment and asked if someone would come on and we didn't get a response. And that's when I knew this was bigger than Al. This was because I knew they loved him and I knew they were our friends.
Jonathan Block: very negative story and then they said at the end of the interview they said at the end of the story they said we've called the White House for comment and asked yeah wow and that's that's when I knew this was bigger than now this was because I knew they loved him and I knew I knew But there was a bigger mission, and I think then the mission was to go a more conservative direction to try and make sure that the next election was secure. It would swing the right way. So in August of 2007, President Bush asks you to consider resigning. Can you tell us about that moment and then what you and Becky did together afterward?
Becky Gonzales: But there was a bigger mission. I think then the mission was to go in a more conservative direction to try and make sure that the next election was secure. So in August of 2007, President Bush asks you to consider resigning. And can you tell us about that moment and then what you and Becky did together?
Judge Gonzales: Well, it was in the summer. I thought we had survived things. Things had calmed down. And I thought everything was going to be all right. ⁓ we were in Austin heading back. And I got a call from Josh Bolton, the chief of staff. And Josh said, ⁓ Al, he said ⁓ something like, You know, we understand there's talk about maybe possible impeachment against you when they come back. And the president doesn't want to see that happen. the best thing may be for you to step down.
Jonathan Block: President doesn't want to see that happen. And the best thing we can do is step down. And to be honest with you, it sort of took me aback. I was surprised. And I asked Josh, and I said, Josh, does the President know about this call? And he said, yes. And that's when I knew, OK, it's done. I could have called the President and completed my case, but I wasn't going do that. He's the President of the United States. And so I said, And I said, uh.
Judge Gonzales: And to be honest with you, it sort of took me aback. I was surprised. And I asked Josh, I said, Josh, does the president know about this call? And he said, yes. And that's when I knew, okay, it's done. I mean, I could have called the president and pleaded my case, but I wasn't going to do that. He's the president of United States. And so I said, okay. And I said, we made arrangements to go to Crawford. ⁓
Jonathan Block: made arrangements to go to Crawford. That was tough. The president actually called us when we were in the car. Yeah, the president also called him in the car. It was just, it was hard. Take a set moment. you fly on a plane, an FBI plane? Yeah, we fly up on the plane to Crawford. What's that like? drive up and Bush hugs me and Laura's there and we go inside.
Judge Gonzales: That was tough. the president also called in the car and it was just it was hard. Yeah, I mean we fly up to we fly up to Crawford and ⁓ drive up and Bush hugs me and and Laura's there and we go inside and we have lunch and. I have some great pictures of that of that.
Becky Gonzales: That was tough. president actually called us when we were in the car. Yeah, the president also called in the car. It was just, it was hard. us that moment. you fly on a plane, an FBI plane? Yeah, I mean, we fly up to Crawford and drive up and Bush hugs me and Laura's there and we go inside and we have lunch and...
Judge Gonzales: that event, Bush and I are sitting on the porch. He's got his cowboy boots on, his hat on, and telling me how things were going to get, things will be better as we move on. But it was, you know, was a period, I feel like I had failed.
Becky Gonzales: I have some great pictures of that event. Bush and I were sitting on the porch. He's got his cowboy boots on, his hat on, and telling me how things were going to get, things will be better as we move on. But it was, you know, was a period, I felt like I had failed.
Jonathan Block: Why? as we move on. But it was, you know, was a period, I feel like I failed. And, uh... Why?
Judge Gonzales: and
Becky Gonzales: Why? Didn't finish the mission.
Judge Gonzales: didn't finish the mission.
Jonathan Block: exhibition. ⁓
Becky Gonzales: But you didn't. Do what? You didn't fail. No, I didn't fail, but...
Judge Gonzales: But you didn't. Do what? You didn't fail. No, I don't. I didn't fail, but...
Jonathan Block: No, yeah. Becky, what's that moment like for you? So you fly down to Crawford together. What's going through your head as you fly down? This is the end of a journey. a... Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: Becky, what's that moment like for you? So you fly down to...
Judge Gonzales: What's that moment like for you?
Becky Gonzales: ⁓ was a deeply sad time. It was a deeply sad time, think, ⁓ because I knew when we came back from that trip that Al would announce ⁓ right then. ⁓ And as hectic as it all was and as the chaoticness of our life was going to slow down.
Jonathan Block: Mm-hmm. ⁓ and as hectic as it all was and as... ⁓
Becky Gonzales: I didn't want it to slow down like this. I didn't want it to be like this. So it was very, very sad. I don't remember the flight back. I don't think we told the agents, but they knew they knew because when the president called they had to get out of the car. Yeah, so we could talk to him.
Jonathan Block: And what was the flight back like?
Judge Gonzales: was going to slow down. I didn't want it to slow down like this. didn't want it to be like this. So it was very, very sad. And what was the flight back like? I don't remember the flight back. I'm sure it was very, very quiet. ⁓ think I don't I'm not even sure we even told the agents but they knew they knew they knew because when the president called they had to get out of the car yeah we asked him to leave the car and so I think that they knew this something serious was happening and I suspect the president's detail toe there told our detail what was going on and ⁓
Jonathan Block: I don't I'm not even sure we told the agents, but they knew. They knew because when the President called they had to get out of the car. Yeah, they had to get out the car. So I think that they knew that something serious was happening and I suspect the President's details told our detail what was going on. Sure.
Becky Gonzales: So I think that they knew that something serious was happening and I suspect the president's detailed, tot-r detailed what was going on.
Judge Gonzales: The other thing I think I really... I hated leaving him.
Jonathan Block: hate it. Leaving him.
Becky Gonzales: Yeah.
Jonathan Block: Can you say more about that? Becky, I want to turn to you. The phone, you told me as we were preparing for this discussion that in that season, especially after the judge announced his resignation, that the phone stopped ringing and that social invitations vanished. I wonder, did any of your friends stick with you? They did. They did. The day of Al's resignation speech.
Becky Gonzales: Becky, I want to turn to you. Okay. The phone you told me as we were preparing for this discussion that in that season, especially after after the judge announced his resignation, the phone stopped ringing. And that social limitations vanished. I wonder, did any of your friends stick with you? They did. They did. The day of Al's resignation speech.
Judge Gonzales: stop and that social invitation was banished. I wonder did any of your friends stick with you? They did. did. The day of Al's resignation speech. ⁓ You mean at Justice? Justice?
Becky Gonzales: You mean at Justice? Justice. Anne Johnson, Clay Johnson's wife, called and said, we're taking you guys to dinner. Oh my goodness. Yeah. And they, and we met them for dinner and, you know, of course we still had the detail and, and, and all that. So people knew Al was in the restaurant. And it was just like Clay and Anne just saying, we're going to, we're going to go somewhere and people are going to see you out having dinner.
Judge Gonzales: And then Johnson, Clay Johnson's wife called and said, we're taking you guys to dinner. ⁓ my goodness. Yeah, and they, and we met them for dinner and, you know, ⁓ of course we still have the detail and, and, and.
Jonathan Block: said, we're taking you guys to dinner. ⁓ my goodness. Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: You know, it was a kind thing and they've continued to be that kind friend. And we had many great friends, ⁓ both in DC and Texas and Houston, who did all kinds of kind things for us and to us during those years. ⁓ You know, gave out consulting work and ⁓ financial help at one point.
Jonathan Block: DC and Texas and Houston who did all kinds of kind things for us and to us during those years. Like what? Gave out consulting work. ⁓
Judge Gonzales: gave out consulting work and financial help at one point that was so appreciated. had one gentleman who we didn't know from Dallas who owned a place up in Montana and said go on up and take your family and go rest and get away from everything.
Becky Gonzales: that was so appreciated. We had one gentleman we didn't know from Dallas who owned a place up in Montana and said go on up and take your family and go rest and get away from everything. And you didn't know him? No, we didn't know him. had a, I mean, this was like how are we going to pay our bills? I didn't have a job and he didn't have a job and he couldn't get a job.
Jonathan Block: No kidding and you didn't know him
Becky Gonzales: and we're trying to figure out how to stay in our house. we had a banker in New Orleans who was a friend of someone close to us who said, I'm going to give you a $100,000 unsecured loan to get you guys through this until the next thing comes. And we'd use it if we needed it. We didn't use it if we didn't need it. Pay it back. He'd renew it just in case we needed it, even when we weren't using it. He was just this kind person who said, I think you've got a bad deal, and you've served our country, and I want to help.
Jonathan Block: It's amazing.
Becky Gonzales: just the kindness of strangers. You know, I think we've tried to make that kind of a cornerstone of our lives to try and pay it forward and try and be generous and try and, if you see a need, help with the need, you know, both in our families and with our friends and with people we don't know. That's, it's, you know, we're not wealthy, like many, many people that we know or that are in our orbit, and yet we're rich.
Jonathan Block: ⁓ Yeah. of our lives to try and pay it forward and try and be generous and try and if you see a need, help with a need, you know, both in our families and with our friends and with people we don't know.
Judge Gonzales: He would use it if we needed it, we didn't use it if we didn't need it, pay it back. He'd renew it just in case we needed it, even when we weren't using it. He was just this kind person who said, think you've got a bad deal and you've served our country and I wanna help. just the kindness of strangers. I think we've tried to make that kind of a cornerstone of our lives to try and pay it forward and try and be generous and try and
Jonathan Block: many many people. yet we're We're rich in...
Becky Gonzales: We're rich in love. No, I'm serious. Can you say more about that? you say we're not wealthy, we're rich, what does that mean? You know, I think...
Jonathan Block: Can you say more about that when you say we're not wealthy but we're rich? What does that mean?
Becky Gonzales: I think that what I always wanted was a home. And he's my home. I mean, he is, you know, we've been married 35 years. Can you believe it? We're old. ⁓ I've had a home the whole time.
Judge Gonzales: I think that what I always wanted was a home. And he's my home. I mean, he is, you know, we've been married 35 years. Can you believe it? We're old. We're old. I've had a home the whole time.
Jonathan Block: you believe it? We're all over over.
Becky Gonzales: And it didn't matter where we lived and it really didn't matter how much money we made. I mean, it was tough sometimes, but it was also... wouldn't change a thing. ⁓ I'd change a few things. I know, but I mean, when I look back at my life and the things that we failed ⁓ I know. I know. And where it brought us and where we're at. Yeah. Yep.
Judge Gonzales: And it didn't matter where we lived and it really didn't matter how much money we made. I mean, it was tough sometimes, but it was awesome. I wouldn't change a thing. ⁓ I'd change a few things. I know, but I mean, when I look back at my life and the things that we've been able to do. I know, and where it brought us and where we're at.
Jonathan Block: I wouldn't change a thing. No, I'd change a few things. ⁓ Yeah. So Judge, in preparation for this discussion, one of things I did was look through your resignation event, your last day as Attorney General. many people . I was not there. No, I was down the street at the White House that day. But many people spoke. The director of .
Becky Gonzales: So Judge, in preparation for this discussion, one of the things I did was look through your retirement, your resignation event, your last day as Attorney General. And many Were you there, Jonathan? I was not there. Okay. No, I was down the street at the White House that day. But many people spoke, the Director of the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Director of the FBI, and on.
Jonathan Block: the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Director of the FBI, and on and on and on. And more than 15 times in that short event, people spoke about your grace under fire. And your class. And ⁓ I wonder if in thinking about your parents ⁓ and what they taught you,
Becky Gonzales: More than 15 times in that short event, people spoke about your grace under fire. It's true. And your class. I wonder if, in thinking about your parents ⁓ and what they taught you, wonder what they, was your mom there that day? Did she see you that day? No. No. She was there.
Jonathan Block: I wonder what they, was your mom there that day? Did she see you that day? No. She was there at swearing in. At the swearing in. Yeah. But she wasn't there that day. Where did you learn those traits of grace under fire? Well, I don't know about grace under fire. Grace under pressure, 15 times. They said it 15 times. I counted because it was so, like as I read the transcript, it was so striking. Person after person said this man exhibits. they'd say it. I'm just not sure that.
Judge Gonzales: No. She was there. swearing in yeah but she wasn't heard that day well I don't know about grace under fire no I'm not saying it didn't they didn't say it I'm just not sure that the grace that I
Becky Gonzales: She was there at the swearing in. but she wasn't here that day. Where did you learn those traits of grace under fire? Well, I don't know about grace under fire. Grace under pressure, 15 times. I because it was so, like as I read the transcript, it was so striking. Person after person said this man. No, I'm not saying they didn't say it. I'm just not sure that the grace that I... It was grace under pressure. That's what they said. Grace under pressure and humility under fire. Can I say that in the governor's office was the first time I recognized
Jonathan Block: It was grace under pressure. That's what they said. Grace under pressure and humility under fire.
Becky Gonzales: that Al had this ability to stay calm when other people didn't. And he had this ability also to bring people's pressure down when something was going on. was like he wasn't going to get rattled. And I kept thinking, he's a diplomat. I had no idea because at Vincent Elkins this talent was wasted. ⁓
Judge Gonzales: Can I say that in the governor's office was the first time I recognized that Al had this ability to stay calm when other people didn't. It is true. And he had this ability also to bring people's pressure down when something was going on. was like he wasn't going to get rattled. And I kept thinking, he's a diplomat. He's, I had no idea because at Vincent Elkins this talent was wasted. Yeah, I think. You learn a lot from your parents. I mean, my parents were, they were humble. They were, pardon me? Louder. Don't be so humble. So I would, ⁓ you know, it's just been my personality. You don't show off. You're, we grew up poor. I mean, that's just the way that I was raised. ⁓
Becky Gonzales: Louder. Don't be so humble.
Jonathan Block: I would, that's just been my personality. Show off. Yeah
Judge Gonzales: And then, of course, I learned a lot from the President, extremely gracious and loyal. These are all great traits. Yeah. So there's a letter behind you from the president as a photo of you in the Oval Office. And I'm not sure if it's a letter I'm about to quote from or not, but when...
Jonathan Block: And then, of course, I learned a lot from the president. He's gracious. Yeah. So there's a letter behind you from the president as a photo of you in the Oval Office and I'm not sure if it's the letter I'm about to quote from or not but when on your last day in office as Attorney General, it's not it yeah but on your last day, sorry go ahead. I hope you do. I hope you do. Wouldn't be the first time and it sure won't be the last. ⁓
Judge Gonzales: On your last day in office, That's not it. Is it? It's not it? But on your last day, is that it? I was going to say, well, I'll let you finish, then I may have to correct you. I hope you do. ⁓
Becky Gonzales: So there's a letter behind you from the president as a photo of you in the Oval Office. I'm not sure if it's the letter that I'm about to quote from or not, when, on your last day in office as Attorney General. That's not it. That's not it. Yeah, that's not it. But on your last day, sorry, go ahead. I was going to say, well, I'll let you finish then I may have to correct you. I hope so. It wouldn't be the first time and it sure won't be the last. So President Bush wrote you this handwritten note that said, in part, Washington, DC is a treacherous
Judge Gonzales: So President Bush wrote you this kind of note that said, in part, Washington, D.C. is a treacherous place. Ambition and pettiness often displace statesmanship and service. And when that happens, individuals are treated unfairly. This happened to you. During the last months, you have maintained your composure and dignity. Your class shined brightly. Your inner soul was strong. And I wonder what it meant to you.
Jonathan Block: ⁓ So President Bush wrote you this handwritten note that said, part, Washington DC is a treacherous place. Ambition and pettiness often displace statesmanship and service. And when that happens, individuals are treated unfairly. This happened to you. During the last months, you have maintained your composure and dignity. Your class shined brightly. Your inner soul was strong. And I wonder what it meant to you to get that letter from your boss and your friend and the president.
Judge Gonzales: to get that letter from your boss and your friend and the president? Yeah. OK. First of all, the letter was written because I just looked at it before you got here, August 27. So it was the day, either the day after or the day after we left Crawford. It wasn't when I resigned, so it was in advance. He knew what was happening. And it's what I would have expected from him. I mean, wasn't surprised.
Jonathan Block: Becky, what did it mean to you to see that letter from the President of the United States?
Judge Gonzales: Becky, what is
Becky Gonzales: Becky, what did it mean to you to receive that letter from the President of the United States? Consistency. It's who he was and how he always treated us, how he always treated Al. And, you know, it was, there was so much reassurance to us with them, both as leaders, but also more as family. They were each other's. important persons. You know, it wasn't, they weren't looking outside for other people. They were that to each other. They modeled that for all of us. And that's President and Mrs. Bush. Yeah. I don't think it was just... It wasn't just for us. I it was other members of that circle. It's okay those of us who started with him in Austin and then go up to D.C., we all became part of the family. Yeah, yeah. And they, but they were, they were... ⁓
Judge Gonzales: They weren't looking outside for other people. They were that to each other. They modeled that for all of us. I don't think it was just me and Becky. I think it was other members of that circle, particularly those of us who started with him in Austin and then go up to D.C. We all became part of a family.
Jonathan Block: You know, there was so much reassurance to us with them, both as leaders, but also more as family. They were each other's important persons. They weren't looking outside for other people. They were that to each other. They modeled that for all of us. And that's President and Mrs. Bush, you mean? Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: affectionate with each other and made sure that we all knew that they were taking care of each other and that we needed to take care of each other. They modeled that for us. So they're just, they just have so much integrity and dignity and good people. We love them.
Jonathan Block: I think there's other members of that circle. Yeah. of us who started with him in Austin and then go up to DC, we all became part of the family. But they were affectionate with each other and made sure that we all knew that they were taking care of each other and that we needed to take care of each other. They modeled that for us. Incredible. They just have so much integrity and dignity and good people. Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: Yes. ⁓ you still talk to them? ⁓ Not that often. talked to them in while. I can't imagine. Well, ⁓ I can't imagine. ⁓
Jonathan Block: Do you still talk to them?
Judge Gonzales: Yes. I haven't talked to him in a while. I can't imagine what he's, well, I can't imagine how he feels about things that are happening in Washington or this country today. But he wouldn't say it. He would never speak publicly about or be critical about what's going on. But I have a pretty good idea of how he feels.
Becky Gonzales: how he feels about things that are happening in Washington or this country today. But he wouldn't say it. He would never speak publicly about or be critical about what's going on. But I have a pretty good idea about how he feels.
Jonathan Block: So let's talk now about these, what I call and Becky, you called the wilderness years. And so you leave your role as attorney general. And Becky, I wonder if you can describe what that transition was like as the judge stepped away from his role and ⁓ how your life's changed and what you did first.
Becky Gonzales: So let's talk now about these, what I call, Becky, you call the wilderness years. And so you leave your role as attorney general. And Becky, I wonder if you can describe what that transition was like as the judge stepped away from his role and ⁓ how your life's changed and what you did first. Well, first of all, what did you do your first day after you resigned? don't know. I can't remember.
Judge Gonzales: Your life's changed from what you did first. I mean, you drove into the bus stop. I remember waking up, looking out the window to see if my detail was there or not. Of course they weren't there. That's when I was a longer attorney general. And I drove our sons to the bus stop and I realized how much I'd missed of their...
Becky Gonzales: You drove the boys to school. hadn't driven in years. I mean, you drove them to the bus stop. remember waking up, looking out the window to see if my detail was in. Of course, they weren't there. That's fine. It wasn't longer a journey to Chicago. And I drove our sons to the bus stop and I realized how much I'd missed their childhood. Because he was driving them to high school and junior high. It was just, yeah, that was really something.
Jonathan Block: Sure. Wow. Yeah, that was really something I remember. And then the other thing I remember of those early days and weeks, when I was attorney general, I would often...
Judge Gonzales: childhood. ⁓ was just, it was, yeah, that was really something I remember. And then ⁓ the other thing I remember those early days and weeks, when I was the Attorney General, I would often ride a bike along the Potomac River. There's a beautiful bike path and my detail would follow behind me. And we used to do this all the time after work. And ⁓ then afterwards, when I had left the department, I would be on that same bike path, but I'd be by myself. So it was really a symbolic of me being alone, ⁓ just riding my bike by myself, wondering, okay, what's gonna happen next? ⁓ Yeah, it was a lonely period. A lot of uncertainty about what was going to happen. It was lonely between us. I think, I probably was... We didn't talk much for a good period of time. I think we were both hurting and we couldn't support each other in the hurt, so we didn't talk about it. Yeah. That's how we got through it. Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: Yeah, it was a lonely period. ⁓ lot of uncertainty about what was going to happen. It was lonely between us. We didn't talk much for a good period of time. I think we were both hurting and we couldn't support each other in the hurt, so we didn't talk about it. That's how we got through it.
Jonathan Block: Yeah, it was a lonely period. A lot of uncertainty about what's going to happen. It was lonely between us. I think so. We didn't talk much for a good period of time. I think we were both hurting and we couldn't support each other in the hurt, so we didn't talk about it. That's how we got through it. you talked about riding your bike and I'm just going to inject a little levity here. There was a story called the Wheel... There's a Washington Post story called the Wheels of Justice that talks about you riding your bike. It was a profile of you as a bike rider and among other things it talked about your your thighs like tree trunks. ⁓ I wonder how you felt about seeing your legs described that way.
Judge Gonzales: There was a story... Yes, I know what story you're talking about. was a Washington Post story called The Wheels of Justice that talks about you riding your bike and the profile of you as a bike rider and among other things it talks about your thigh like three drops. I know. I wonder how you felt about seeing your Are you kidding? Pup my muscles. That was a woman recording.
Becky Gonzales: story. ⁓ Yeah, that was a woman reporter I remember. I remember she came to the school too. She came to the kids school. remember that. Yeah,
Jonathan Block: Hahaha!
Judge Gonzales: She came to the school too. Yeah, she came to the school. I I was like, I I was just reading. So you have this period where you're... The wilderness. The wilderness. You're out of office. You're both lonely and lonely with each other, as you said. Judge, in your book, you talk about looking for work after leaving that role.
Becky Gonzales: So you have this period where you're- the wilderness. wilderness, you're out of office, you're not talking, you're both lonely and lonely with each other as you've said and Judge in your book you talk about looking for work after leaving that role and not finding it for a long
Jonathan Block: Yep, yep she did. eyes like tree trunks. I think that's great. ⁓ So you have this period where ⁓ you're... ⁓ The Wilderness, you're out of office, you're not talking, you're both lonely and lonely with each other, as you said. ⁓ Judge, in your book, you talk about looking for work after leaving that role and not finding it for a long time. And you write in those years, they were a time of reflection and growth, and that you needed time for wounds to heal. And I wonder what that means.
Judge Gonzales: Well, I mean it it hurt it hurt us And it wasn't that he didn't have any work. Yeah consulting, things like that, but but but the you're gonna be okay work Didn't come. Yeah
Becky Gonzales: right in those years, they were a time of reflection and growth, and they needed time for wounds to heal. And I what that means. Well, I mean, it hurt. It hurt us. It hurt a lot. And it wasn't that he didn't have any work. He did consulting work, and he speeches. Things like that. But the you're going to be OK work didn't come.
Jonathan Block: And it wasn't that he didn't have any work. He consulting work and he speeches. Things like that. But the you're going to be OK work didn't come. Like the partnership at a white shoe firm or that kind of thing. It had a really big smile on my old firm in Houston. Who had the entire time when we were in DC. ⁓
Judge Gonzales: Well, really basic when it was my old firm in Houston. That the entire time we were in D.C. How did the fact they would just go on and on and on now? You have a.
Becky Gonzales: really big disappointment was my old firm in Houston. Who had the entire time we were in DC. Every time they would just go on and on and on, Al you have a home here when this is over we are your home you're gonna be and ⁓ they they disappeared like steam. you know and as I write in my book a certain understanding in that when I left there were still ongoing investigations by the IG.
Jonathan Block: disappeared like steam. And you know, I started writing my book, I certain understanding of that when I left.
Judge Gonzales: and this is over, we are your home, you're gonna be, and they disappeared like steam. as I write in my book, a certain understanding in that when I left, there were still ongoing investigations by the IG, Congress is still looking at this issue, and I can somewhat understand that the firm. Well, at the time we could understand because of those, but there's no reason for them. and so that was disappointing.
Jonathan Block: still ongoing investigation by the IG. Congress is still looking at this issue. I have, I could somewhat understand that... ⁓ at the time we could understand because of those, but there's no reason for later. But that was disappointing. I former Supreme Court Justice, Attorney General of United States, County President, Harvard Law Grant... Can't get a job. And you're not interested in hiring back a former partner. that would, and so if...
Becky Gonzales: is still looking at this issue. And I can somewhat understand that... Well, at the time we could understand because of those, there's no reason for later. And so that was disappointing. mean, former Supreme Court Justice, Attorney General of United States, County Libres and Harvard Law Grant... Can't get a job. And you're not interested in hiring back a former...
Judge Gonzales: Supreme Court justice attorney. Jolly. I say is counsel the president Harvard law grad and you're not interested in hiring back a former partner so That was and so if my old firm is not willing to hire me. What are the firms gonna hire me? So That said a lot and that was just that was very disappointing but in hindsight, you know what? I think I would have been miserable after all the things that I had done
Jonathan Block: my old firm's not willing to hire me. What other firm's gonna hire me? So that said a lot, and that was very disappointing. But in hindsight, you After all the things that I've done, all practices, I mean, it's fine. But I would have been probably bored after a few years and been looking for something else. so I think it was God's way of saying, just be patient and things are going to work out for you.
Judge Gonzales: All practices, I mean, it's fine. But I would have been probably bored after a few years and been looking for something else. so I think it was God's way of saying, just be patient and things are going to work out for you. ⁓ But yeah, it was tough. But talking about sort of going in, becoming anonymous, one of those first early weeks, I'd gone to our cleaners, and I'm standing there at the counter of the cleaners, and the couple walks in. And I'm just standing there waiting for my clothes. And the woman looks at me and says to her, I guess, boyfriend or husband, well, it says to me, ⁓ she says, you look just like our good friend Paul Reyes or something like that. And I said, ⁓ really? And she says, yeah, everybody says he looks like Al Gonzales. That's when you know you're nobody. So anyway.
Jonathan Block: that man says to her, I guess, boyfriend or husband, well he to me, she says, know, you look like, just like our good friend Paul Reyes or something like that. I said, oh really? And she says, yeah, everybody says he looks like Al Gonzales. That's me though. You're nobody.
Becky Gonzales: close and the woman at me ⁓ ⁓ to me, ⁓ says, know, ⁓ look ⁓ like ⁓ good friend Paul Reyes or something like that. And I said, ⁓ really? And she says, yeah, everybody says he looks like Al Gonzales. ⁓ That's when you know you're nobody. ⁓
Jonathan Block: It's amazing. Becky, ⁓ in April 2008, about eight months after the judge left office, the New York Times reported that he was having a hard time finding a job, a story just about that. And I wonder what it was like for you to see that headline. Difficult. I mean, you know, it always felt like things would calm down and then there would be another.
Becky Gonzales: It's amazing. Becky, in April 2008, about eight months after the judge left office, the New York Times reported that he was having a hard time finding a job, a story just about that. I wonder what it was like for you to see that happen. Difficult. was, I mean, you know, it's, the, it always felt like, things would calm down and then there would be another media story that would rock the boat again. And that was just one of many, but it felt terrible. So qualified, so competent, so accomplished, and nobody wanted to make offers. And it was really crazy. What held you back during that time? Each other. Each other. think, I think.
Jonathan Block: It was really crazy. What held you, during that time? What anchored you? Each other. think the amphet. I think we both were kind of in a, we've got to get through this. What's this? Is it Winston Churchill? When you're going through hell, keep going? Yeah.
Judge Gonzales: so qualified, so confident, so accomplished. nobody wanted to make offers. And it was really crazy. What held you back during that time? Each other. Faith. I think the, and faith. I think we both were kind of in a... ⁓
Becky Gonzales: the and faith. I think we both were kind of in a, we've got to get through this. What's this? Is it Winston Churchill? When you're going through hell, keep going. I think we both kind of had those blinders on. just were going to get through it. It's going to be okay. We just, and we had to do it. You know, I would be reminded when I would think about how's this going to work out? My dad was a boy, you know, we've worked out, we'd have a
Judge Gonzales: we've got to get through this. Is it Winston Churchill? When you're going through hell, keep going? I think we both kind of had those blinders on, just were going to get through it, it's going to be okay, and we had to do it. I would be reminded when I would think about, well how's this going to work out? When my dad, growing up as a boy, we'd have a working on some kind of problem or something, said, how's this going to work out, dad? says, it's got to work out, simple as that.
Jonathan Block: It's gotta work out. Yeah, and
Judge Gonzales: confidence. It's got to work out. Eventually we knew that it would get through this and we did.
Becky Gonzales: working on some kind of problem or something. I said, how's this gonna work out, Dag? says, it's gotta work out. As simple as that. Just total confidence. It's gotta work out. So. And Al has lived by that. That's been a kind of a mantra. It didn't work out. It's gotta work out. It's gotta work out. And it did work Eventually we knew that it would get through and we did. this great story. ⁓
Jonathan Block: There's this great love story that emerges. You guys survived these five years in the wilderness and the loneliness... think there is actually something... Hispanic Moses. That's... ⁓ So, when does the loneliness between the two of you thaw?
Judge Gonzales: You guys survived these five years in the wilderness. You make me sound like Moses or something. Hispanic Moses. He was flat too. Yes he was. So when does the loneliness between the two of you thaw and you kind of begin holding hands? And Becky you talked about.
Becky Gonzales: You guys survived these five years in the wilderness and the loneliness... You guys sound like Moses or something. Hispanic Moses. ⁓ Hispanic Moses. He was flawed too. So, when does the loneliness between the two of you thaw and you kind of begin holding hands?
Jonathan Block: and you kind of begin holding hands. And Becky, you talked about that together you turn toward each other.
Becky Gonzales: I think it helped. I think it helped when It was, it's really, I was gonna say when we got back to Texas, but it was before that. think, I think, I church and, ⁓ and our friends that stuck with us and neighbors that were kind and, ⁓ you know, I think that that darkness was, was not five years. It wasn't, it wasn't even close. It was.
Judge Gonzales: It was, it's really, I was gonna say when we got back to Texas, but it was before that. I think, think the church and our friends that stuck with us and neighbors that were kind and, you know.
Becky Gonzales: months, maybe a year, ⁓ where we were just so shaken up. ⁓ But also you could kind of see glimpses of light where he was really spending time with Graham and Gabriel and I think getting to know him and I was watching him get to know them and it was good for them, it was good for him, it was great for me. ⁓ So there was light. But it was good going back to Texas. In fact, when we went to Washington, I always assumed that Houston or Austin. We'd go back to Houston or Austin. And so we were given the opportunity to go to Texas Tech in Lubbock. And just going back to Texas, it was good for us. It was good for our boys, too. Yeah. Yeah. Back to a quiet community.
Judge Gonzales: good for him, it was great for me. So there was light. But it was good going back to Texas. In fact, when we went to Washington, I always assumed that we would go back to Houston or Austin. And so we were given the opportunity to go to Texas Tech in Lubbock, and just going back to Texas was good for us. It was good for our boys too. going back to a quiet community.
Jonathan Block: We were given the opportunity to go to Texas Tech in Lubbock and just going back to Texas was good for us. It was good for our boys too. Going back to a quiet community. Why was it good for them, the boys specifically? It's small town. You don't get lost.
Becky Gonzales: Why was it good for them, the boys, specifically? Out of Washington, definitely. Yeah. It's a small town on a grid. You don't get lost. And people were kind and welcoming. And the boys went from overcrowded schools where they didn't really get to participate. you know, the top elite, know, athletes got to be on the soccer team or the football team. And we went to a small town where they got to do everything they wanted to do. And it was just a simpler life, a quieter life. was good for all of us. Judge, wrote in your book that in this season, this is a quote, you said, God had never left me or forsaken me. Indeed, he'd been there all the time. And I wonder what it meant to you.
Judge Gonzales: overcrowded schools where they didn't really get to participate. You know, the top elite, know, athletes got to be on the soccer team or the football team. And we went to a small town where they got to do everything they wanted to do. And it was just a simpler life. It was good for us. It was good for all of us.
Jonathan Block: schools where they didn't really get to participate. know, the top elite, know, athletes got to be on the soccer team or the football team. And we went to a small town where they got to do everything they wanted to do and it was just a simpler life. was quieter life. was good for all of us. Judge, you wrote in your book that in this season This is a quote, you said, God had never left me or forsaken me. Indeed, he'd been there all the time. And I wonder what it meant to you that God had never left you and how your faith changed during that season. Well, I mean, it was, it clear to me that this was all part of the plan. mean, what does that mean? You know, I've been given all these wonderful opportunities and that was part of the plan. Now, this is part of it as well.
Judge Gonzales: And I wonder what it meant to you that God had never left you and how your faith changed during that season. Well, I mean, it was clear to me that this was all part of the plan. I what does that mean? You know, I'd been given all these wonderful opportunities and that was part of the plan. And now this is part of it as well.
Becky Gonzales: I've been given all these wonderful opportunities and that was part of the plan and now this is part of it as well. hard part was part of the plan. It part of the plan. And so I think it made us stronger. ⁓ gave me an opportunity to more time with the boys, as Becky said. And so we went back to a community in Texas where it's not Washington. I they're Texans and they loved us and it was good. It was great.
Jonathan Block: The hard part was part. And so think it made us stronger. gave me an opportunity to more time with the boys, as Becky said. And ⁓ we went back to a community in Texas where, it's not Washington, mean, they're Texans and they love this. It was good. It was great. It was really, really good. We kept wondering why we couldn't buy house there.
Judge Gonzales: was part of the plan. And so I think it made us stronger. ⁓ gave me an opportunity to spend more time with the boys, as Becky said. and ⁓ we went back to a community in Texas where, it's not Washington, I mean, they're Texans and they loved us and it was good. It was great. It was really, really good. And,
Becky Gonzales: really good and we kept wondering why we couldn't buy a house there why why our roots weren't being put yeah we kept questioning a house there and then of course got at this door whole thing with Belmont came along so we're gonna get there but I want
Judge Gonzales: We kept wondering why we couldn't buy a house there. Why our roots weren't being put We never bought a house there. Then of course ⁓ the whole thing with Belmont came along. So we're going to get there, I want Becky before this discussion, you told me that you had watched the judges, former colleagues get jobs at places like Walmart, Google, and Meta. And then you told me.
Jonathan Block: Like our roofs weren't being painted. Yeah. Interesting. a house there, and then of course, the whole thing with film on it came along. So we're going to get there, but I want. Becky, before this discussion, you told me that you had watched the judge's former colleagues get jobs at places like Walmart and Google and Meta. And then you told me that if the judge had landed a role in a firm like that, you might have earned a lot of money, but it wouldn't have let you craft the life that you wanted. What does that mean? Well, I think those kind of jobs come with a high price, just like Washington did. Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: Well, I think those kind of jobs come with a high price just like Washington did.
Judge Gonzales: I think those kind of jobs come with a high price, just like Washington did. And the truth is, we finally had time for each other. And one of the things I think I missed during the years of his career soaring was I wanted his attention. I wanted more of his attention. And there just wasn't time. And I think the gift has been the time that we've had. And I think one of those jobs would have been like the White House.
Becky Gonzales: The truth is we finally had time for each other. And one of the things I think I missed during the years of his career soaring was I wanted his attention. I wanted more of his attention. And there just wasn't time. And I think the gift has been the time that we've had. And I think one of those jobs would have been like the White House or, you know. I mean, they're great jobs. No, they're great jobs. But people used to work from their.
Jonathan Block: The truth is we finally had time for each other. And one of the things I think I missed during the years of this career of story was I wanted his attention. more of his attention. And there just wasn't time. And I think the gift has been the time that we've had. And I think one of those jobs would have been like the White House. I mean, they're great jobs. They're great jobs. I'm delighted that people used to
Judge Gonzales: I mean they're great jobs and I'm delighted that people that used to work for me have gotten these great positions. think that's a testament to hopefully some lessons that they learned from me. I don't see Brett Kavanaugh who was here I guess a few months ago and others. John Roberts was also here. You we put him on the Supreme Court. Sam Alito is here because we put him on the Supreme I mean you see these people...
Jonathan Block: great positions and that's a testament to, hopefully, some lessons that they learned from me. And I don't see Brett Kavanaugh, who was here, I guess, a few months ago, and others. John Roberts was also here. We put him on the Supreme Court. He here because we put him on the Supreme mean, you see these people. Neil Gorsuch, did Gorsuch work for you as well? Neil was, yeah, he was coming to my senior staff meetings in justice.
Judge Gonzales: Neil was, ⁓ yeah, he would come to my senior staff meetings at Justice and for me it's been gratifying to help people get these positions. For example,
Becky Gonzales: see Brett Kavanaugh who was here I guess three months ago and others. John Roberts is also here. You know we put him on the Supreme Court. Sam Lito is here because we put him on the Supreme you see these people. Yeah, comes to your staff meetings at Justice and for me it's been gratifying to help people. Ted Elliott? Ted Elliott, was my Chief of Staff, was with me at the Counsel's Office in my Chief of Staff. I helped him get his position as General Counsel at NFL. That was just this year, this past year. Yeah, I love seeing these people do these great things. I'm not surprised because they all graduated from Ivy League schools. They all parted the Supreme Court. These were like superstars. So I'm not surprised.
Judge Gonzales: Ted Alliette, who was my Chief of Staff, was with me at the Counsel's Office and my Chief of Staff. I helped him get his position as General Counsel of the NFL. I loved doing that. was just this year. love seeing these people do these great things. I'm not surprised because
Jonathan Block: That was just this year. Amazing. I love seeing these people do these great things. I'm not surprised because they all graduated from Ivy League schools. They all part of the Supreme Court. These were like superstars. So not surprised at all that they're great things. So in 2012, your son was on a college visit to Nashville colleges. Yeah, you brought him. Tell us about it.
Judge Gonzales: They all graduated from Ivy League schools. They all clerked at the Supreme Court. These were like superstars. ⁓ So I'm not surprised at all that they're doing great things. It's great.
Becky Gonzales: that they're doing great things. It's great. So in 2012, your son was on a college visit to Nashville colleges. I brought him. Yeah, you brought him. Tell us about it. Becky normally would take ⁓ a grant at these college visits, but I she was sick. And so he wanted to look at some schools here. He wanted to look at Belmont, Trebekah, and Lipscomb. He wanted a faith-based institution to go to. I hadn't heard of Belmont, honestly. And so I brought him here, made a nice visit.
Judge Gonzales: So in 2012, your son was on a college visit to Nashville colleges. I brought him. Yeah, you brought him. Tell us about it. Becky normally would take Graham to these college visits, but I think she was sick. And so he wanted to look at some schools here. He wanted to look at Belmont, Treveca, and Lipscomb. He wanted a faith-based institution to go to. I had never heard of Belmont, honestly. And so I brought him here. We had a nice visit. ⁓ Shortly after that visit, they were starting the law school. hadn't been built yet. The founding dean, Jeff Kinsler, called me and asked if I'd be interested in coming to teach here. I said no. Didn't want to leave Texas. Never heard about mine, really. So ⁓ the offer got better. kept talking. ⁓ Law firm, Walr Lansing, offered me a job.
Becky Gonzales: Shortly after that visit, they were starting the law school. It hadn't been built yet. The founding dean, Jeff Kinsler, called me and asked if I'd be interested in coming to teach here. I said no, didn't want to be a tennisist. Never heard about it, really. So the offer got better. I kept talking. A law firm, Waterland, Lansing, offered me a job and Graham decided he wanted to go to school.
Jonathan Block: Shortly after that visit, they were starting the law school. had been no jet. The founding dean, Jeff Kinsler, called me and asked if I'd be interested in coming to teach here. I said no. well, you can't. said, never heard about him, really. So the offer got better. kept talking. A law firm, Walter Lansing, offered me a job and ran a signing.
Judge Gonzales: And ⁓ Graham decided he wanted to come to school here. So Becky and I said, OK, we'll go to Nashville and see what it's like. And that's how he ended up coming to Belmont Law School and teach. And I started here in the second semester of the law school. We were in a temporary building for two years before moving into this building. And then after, I guess, three or four years, I became the dean. And I've been the dean since then.
Becky Gonzales: school here so Becky and I said, we'll go to Nashville and see what it's like and that's how I ended up coming to Belmont Law School and teach. I started here in the second semester of law school. We were a temporary building for two years before moving into this building. And then after I guess three or four years I became the dean and I've been the dean since then. so, Becky. Our DC house sold.
Jonathan Block: school here so Becky and I said okay we'll go to Nashville and see what it's like and that's how you could come into Belmont Law School and teach. I started here in the second semester of the law school. were in a temporary building for two years before moving into this building and then after I guess three or four years I became the dean. I've been the dean since then. And so yeah Becky. DC house sold almost immediately when he got
Becky Gonzales: almost immediately when he got back from that trip after he got the offer from Belmont. And ⁓ from that moment on, when the house sold. If we had stayed in Texas, we would be buying a house. And now I realized we didn't buy a house there because we're supposed to buy a house in Nashville. And I could see God's hand in the whole thing. And for whatever reason, the hard parts and the good parts have just landed in a way that we're here and we finally found home.
Jonathan Block: If we had stayed in Texas, we would be buying a house. Now I realize we didn't buy a there because we're supposed to buy a house in Nashville. Amazing. I could see God's hand in the whole thing. For whatever reason, the hard parts and the good parts have just landed in the way that we're here. Texas is still home, is our home home. But we love Nashville. It's been good to us. It's a friendly, kind place and we great friends here and our kids have great friends here. So two of our sons have Belmont degrees and you heard about that, asked about Belmont. Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: Texas is still home is our home home. But we love Nashville. It's been good to us. It's a friendly, kind place and we have great friends here and our kids have great friends here. so two of our sons have Belmont degrees and you heard that Becky has Belmont degrees. Belmont has been extremely generous to us and we're very grateful. Very grateful. So Becky, you as the judge just said you.
Judge Gonzales: From that moment on when that when the house sold if we had stayed in Texas we could we would be buying a house and now I realized we didn't buy a house there because we're supposed to buy a house in Nashville and and I could see God's hand in the whole thing and for whatever reason the what the hard parts and the good parts have just Landed in a way that we're here and we finally found home Texas is still home is our home. We love Texas But we love Nashville. It's been good to us. It's a friendly kind Yeah place and Great friends here and kids have great friends here And so two of our sons have Belmont degrees and you heard that Becky has a Belmont degree. So Belmont has been extremely Generous to us and we're very grateful ⁓
Jonathan Block: So Becky, as the judge just said, earned a master's degree in social work with a focus on trauma treatment, which is interesting. And so I wonder, did your coursework on trauma especially help you process the trauma of what happened to y'all in 2007? You know, I think it's kind of like when a doctor gets a cold, he can't really help himself.
Becky Gonzales: or a master's degree in social work with a focus on trauma treatment, which is interesting. And so I wonder, did your coursework on trauma especially help you process the trauma of what happened to y'all in 2007? You know, I think it's kind of like when a doctor gets a cold, he can't really help himself very well.
Judge Gonzales: wonder, did your coursework on trauma especially help you process the trauma that happened to you in 2007? You know, I think it's kind of like when a doctor gets a cold, he can't really help himself very well.
Becky Gonzales: No, that's not true. It's helped me a great deal. I really got the trauma treatment certificate because I intended to work with young people ⁓ and I did do that ⁓ during my internships and realized it was not the place I needed to be. It was too hard for me, maybe when I was younger. ⁓ But it was, you know, our system, the way our system takes care of children in trouble is lacking.
Judge Gonzales: No, that's not true. It's helped me a great deal. I really got the trauma treatment certificate because I intended to work with young people and I did do that during my internships and realized it was not the place I needed to be. It was too hard for me, maybe when I was younger. But it was, you know, our system, the way our system takes care of children in trouble is lacking.
Jonathan Block: It's helped me a great deal. I really got the trauma treatment certificate because I intended to work with young people. And I did do that. and realize it was it was not the place I needed to be. It was too hard for me maybe when I was younger. But it was you know our system the way our system takes care of children in trouble is lacking and I couldn't I couldn't save them you know and I just couldn't do it. So hospice ended up being the right place for me.
Becky Gonzales: and I couldn't save them, you know, and I just couldn't do it. And so hospice ended up being the right place for me. So I did that. But yeah, the trauma training has helped me in many ways. It has. So you've worked now in banking and social work in Toronto and hospice. The judge is retiring from his role as dean. What's next for you?
Jonathan Block: Trauma training has helped me in many ways. I'm sure it has. I'm sure it has. So you've worked now in banking and social work and trauma and hospice. The judge is retiring from his role as dean. What's next for you? Well, he's still going to work. He's just not going to be able it. He'll still consult and have You'll be doing stuff, yeah. And I've always managed that part of our lives. So I'll still do that.
Becky Gonzales: Well, he's still going to work. He's just not going to be the dean of the law school. He'll still consult and travel and speak. And I've always managed that part of our lives. So I'll still do that. I was helping him bring baseball to Nashville. And I've kind of stepped back from that a little bit because I've got plenty to do. But we'll see.
Judge Gonzales: the judge is retiring from his role as dean. What's next for you? Well, he's still going to work. He's just not going to be the dean at the law school. He'll still consult and travel and speak. And I've always managed that part of our lives. So I'll still do that. I was helping him bring baseball to Nashville. And I've kind of stepped back from that a little bit because I've got plenty to do. But we'll see. And
Jonathan Block: ⁓ And I've kind of stepped back from that a little bit because I've got plenty to do.
Becky Gonzales: ⁓
Jonathan Block: Would you, you're about to retire, looking back, would you do it again? Would you do government service again?
Judge Gonzales: Would you or your?
Becky Gonzales: Absolutely. He'd probably do it sooner and longer. No, actually because, if you change one thing, then everything else has to change. I do have regrets about, I think, some of way that I handled the accusations. I think I could have handled those better, hey, it is what it is. You learn from every stumble in life. I think you learn and you get up and you move on.
Judge Gonzales: Absolutely. You'd probably do it sooner and longer. No, actually because, look, if you change one thing, then everything else has to change. so, no. I do have regrets about, I think, some of the way that I handled the accusations. I think I could have handled those better, but hey, it is what it is. you learn from every stumble in life. I think you learn and you get up and you move on.
Jonathan Block: what it is.
Judge Gonzales: forward and upward. Right forward and upward. You've been through a lot together. Right. have this amazing story of faith and love. You've walked through to quote the 21st Psalm, the valley of the shadow of death and emerged to find goodness and mercy on the other side.
Jonathan Block: You've been through a lot together, the two of you have. You have this amazing story of faith and love. You've walked through, to quote the 23rd Psalm, the valley of the shadow of death and emerged to find goodness and mercy on the other side. And I wonder what advice you would give to someone else who's facing their own wilderness.
Judge Gonzales: you to get to someone else who's facing their own wilderness. You know, I would say try to stay optimistic and there's a plan. Life, from my perspective, life is just full of so many setbacks. And sometimes you try something, it fails. You try again, it fails. And you think, why do I keep trying? And you keep trying because the next time, as long as there's hope, the possibility of success, you do that. And with every failure, there's a lesson you learn from every failure. And so from my perspective, persistence is an important trait and something that I learned, think, from my parents. And ⁓ so the advice I would give is just... keep you know I want to go to sound on whether to keep your head down or get your head up but you got to keep moving forward yeah just know that okay got to get through this it's gonna be over things are going to get better and I always had that faith I've always been very optimistic a very optimistic person and yeah it was tough but I guess I always sense it
Becky Gonzales: I don't know to keep your head down or get your head up, but you gotta keep moving forward. And attitude. Yeah, just know that, gotta get through this, it's gonna be over, things are gonna get better. And I always had that faith. I've always been a very optimistic person. yeah, it was tough, but I guess I always sensed hey, I've some great things that happened in my life. It's gonna happen again.
Judge Gonzales: hey, I've had some great things that have happened in my life. It's going to happen again. just always had that confidence that it was going to all be OK. ⁓
Becky Gonzales: always had that confidence that it was going to all be okay. would tell someone, find your faith because none of us are God and we don't control everything that happens to us. It's not possible. you know, find what you can believe in and trust that good and bad are going to happen because that's life, but you'll get through it. Some people may wonder, how could God...
Jonathan Block: Yeah, it was tough, I guess I always sense that, hey, I've some great things that happened in my life. It's going to happen again. I ⁓ always had that confidence that it was going to all be OK. And Becky, what about you? What advice would you give? I would tell someone, find your
Judge Gonzales: None of us are God and we don't control everything that happens to us. It's not possible. know, find what you can believe in and trust that good and bad are gonna happen because that's life, but you'll get through it. You know, some people may wonder, you know, how could God allow this to happen? And I'm reminded that, you know, God is not the author of everything that happens on earth. He's a master of the universe, but he's not the author. things happen. Bad things happen. Innocent children die and you might wonder how could God ⁓ let this happen? ⁓ God is not the author of everything that happens on this earth. That's just the way it is. At the end of the day, salvation comes at the end. When you die, you're reunited with Christ.
Becky Gonzales: He's a master of the universe, but he's not the author of God. That's why things happen. Bad things happen. If his children die, you might wonder how God let this happen. Imperfect people, imperfect world. Yeah, God is not the author of everything that happens in this world. That's just the way it is. At the end of the day, a salvation comes at the end. When you die, you're reuniting with Christ. Becky, what was your answer?
Jonathan Block: Becky, what would you add? ⁓ you think about your future together, what's next?
Becky Gonzales: That was pretty good. I don't think I'd add anything. As you think about your future together, what's next? Well, we hope to spend more time. ⁓
Judge Gonzales: Pretty good. OK. As we think about your future together, what's next? Well, we hope to spend more time with our grandkids. And our children. And our children, and each other. Maybe do a little traveling, but I'm not ready to retire entirely.
Jonathan Block: could spend more time with our grandkids and our children and each other. Maybe do a little traveling.
Becky Gonzales: with our grandkids and our children and each other. Maybe do a little traveling, but I'm not ready to retire entirely. I think I'm still having some kind of relationship here at Belmont. Maybe not necessarily with the law school, but with the university generally. ⁓
Judge Gonzales: I think I may end up still having some kind of relationship here at Belmont. Maybe not necessarily with the law school, but with the university generally. ⁓ Serve on a couple of boards, that'll continue. Speaking. Yeah, although I've been very careful at Becky's request about going out and speaking because it's just hard right now for me to speak publicly and not be critical. Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: several couple of boards that'll continue. ⁓ Speaking. Yeah, although I've been very careful of Becky's request about going out speaking because it's just hard right now for me to speak publicly and not be political. Critical. Yeah.
Jonathan Block: I I'm still having some kind of life here at Belmont. Maybe not necessarily with the law school, but with the university generally. ⁓ Serve a couple boards, that'll continue. Speaking. Yeah, although I've been very careful of Becky's request about going out and speaking because it's just hard right now for me to speak publicly and not be critical. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: I never want him to get too political when he's doing media and now he'll be free to do whatever he wants. ⁓ you're always measured. Always measured. But he'll still do a lot of speeches, not just media. ⁓
Jonathan Block: ⁓ So last question for you and it is ⁓ as best I can tell you have never sat for a joint interview together ever that I can remember.
Judge Gonzales: he's doing media and now he's free to do whatever he wants. Well, but I'll be very measured of course. Oh, you're always measured. Yeah. But he'll still do a lot of speeches, not just media. So, question for you, is, as best I can tell you have never sat for a joint interview together, never.
Becky Gonzales: I will say at the Department of Justice, we did an interview about Project Safe Childhood. That's the only time we've ever. and we have one more. We have one more that we did and it was during the inauguration with a Houston Sheriff Friar who was our local anchor in Houston who came up to DC for the inauguration and interviewed our whole family at breakfast. So that was kind of fun. But yeah, this is this is the third
Judge Gonzales: say at the Department of Justice we did an interview about Project Safe Childhood. That's the only time we've ever... I have a big picture of New York Times. have one more that we did and it was during the inauguration with Sheriff Fryer who was our local anchor in Houston who came up to DC for the inauguration and interviewed our whole family. I remember that too. So you're not the first, I'm sorry.
Jonathan Block: Oh my goodness, okay. The third, Well thank you.
Becky Gonzales: The third time in his life. But he's given thousands. I only did it because it was you. It's true. Yeah, I trust you.
Judge Gonzales: But it's the best one.
Jonathan Block: Well, thank you. I appreciate it immensely. Thank you so much. I appreciate both of you a lot and I've learned a lot from both of you over the years. what a wonderful thing to hear your story. I appreciate you telling me. Thank Thank you. Don't mess it up. I'll try not to.
Judge Gonzales: Okay, thank you. Don't mess it up. Okay,
Becky Gonzales: Thank you.
Judge Gonzales: that's what I everyone all the youngsters don't up ⁓
Jonathan Block: That's all I All the youngsters, don't mess up.
Becky Gonzales: Gonzales, and Mrs. Gonzales, thank you for coming back. We're going to move now to the spring of 2007. You're the sitting attorney general. And in that spring, a series of events emerged that is now known as, colloquially known as the US Attorney scandal. But for context, it was a series of events that now would not even make page B75 of the New York Times. ⁓ In fact, the Wall Street Journal has subsequently called it much ado about nothing. ⁓ And so I wonder if, just briefly, you can describe what happened. Sure.
Jonathan Block: the colloquially known as the U.S. Attorney scandal. But for context, it was a series of events that now would not even make page B 75 of the New York Times. In fact, the Wall Street Journal has subsequently called it much ado about nothing. And so I wonder if just briefly you can describe what happened. Sure. So at beginning of the second term, like in most administrations, often you'll see turnover. Yep.
Judge Gonzales: page B75 of the New York Times. In fact, the Wall Street Journal has subsequently called it much ado about nothing. And so I wonder if just briefly you can describe what happened. Sure. ⁓ So at the beginning of the second term, like in most administrations, often you'll see turnover in ⁓ high profile positions. And so I'm the attorney general and the White House has asked me to look at the U.S. because ⁓ that's an area where a Republican, a President has the opportunity to credential an up-and-coming star around the country and give them some, you know, some great experience and so direct it to look at various U.S. attorneys around the country. And so my team did that and we identified, I guess, five to seven and ⁓
Jonathan Block: So I'm the attorney general and the White House has asked me to look at the US attorneys. Because that's an area where a Republican, a president has the opportunity to credential an unbecoming star.
Judge Gonzales: made a recommendation. A lot of people think that I fired them. I don't have the authority to fire a presidential appointee. They're printed by the president. I can't fire them. But, you know, I was asked to look at these and working with my team, submitted some names, and they had served their full four-year term, their statutory term, and they served with the pleasure of the president.
Jonathan Block: Right. They're probably by the President, can't find them. I was asked to look at these and worked with my team, submitted some names, and they had served their full four-year term, their statutory term, and they served the pleasure of the President, so he can remove them. And that's what we did, and we're making a change. What we failed to realize, though, is that
Becky Gonzales: They serve with pleasure of the President, he can remove them. And that's what we did, we made a change. What we failed to realize though is that Democrats had taken control of the Senate. So immediately there were accusations that these U.S. trunks had been improperly removed. And that began a series of more accusations and hearing.
Judge Gonzales: you know, he can remove them. And that's what we did. We made a change. What we failed to realize, though, is that the Democrats had taken control of the Senate. And so immediately, were, you know, accusations that these U.S. attorneys had been improperly removed. And that began a series of, you know, more accusations. and hearings and me having to go up to the Hill to testify to try to defend these removals. What made it difficult for me at the time was I tried to be respectful of these individuals and explaining why they were removed. You don't want to say, you know, we just thought they weren't doing a good job. We wanted better people. so, you know, when I look back at some of my testimony, I probably could have been
Jonathan Block: a series of more accusations and hearings and me having to up to the Hill testify to try to defend these rules. What made difficult for me at the time was I tried to be respectful of these individuals in explaining why they were moved. We just thought they weren't doing a good job, we wanted better people.
Judge Gonzales: I could have done it in a way that I think would have—may have cut off some of the criticism and accusations. But nonetheless, ⁓ the Democrats were making the accusation that they had been removed for improper political reasons. And that continued for ⁓ quite some period of time. And there were number of hearings. ⁓ I mean, it got pretty serious. remember one time, President Bush from time to time when I would see him, he would make sure he said, are you okay, Fredo? That was my nickname, Fredo. I think it was because early on,
Jonathan Block: I it got pretty serious. ⁓ remember one time, President Bush and Tom Conn, when I would sing it, he would make sure he said, are you okay, Fredo? That was my nickname. Fredo, yeah, why did he call you Fredo? I think it was because early on, maybe he thought my name was Alfredo. said, I don't know. But I really know, but I don't know. He had lots of nicknames for lots of people, right? Exactly.
Judge Gonzales: Maybe he thought my name was Alfredo instead of Alberto. don't know. But I don't know. ⁓ Exactly. ⁓ ⁓ he even told me one time when he'd gone to Mexico, the president of Mexico had said, is there something we can do to help ⁓ Gonzales? I mean, ⁓ were stepping up and saying, what can we do to to help the attorney general? ⁓ was tough. It really was. because I knew that I'd done. ⁓
Becky Gonzales: It got pretty serious. remember one time, President Bush from time time when I would see him, would make sure he said, are you okay, Fredo? That was my nickname. Fredo, why did he call you Fredo? I think it was because early on, maybe he thought my name was Alfredo instead of Alberto. We don't really know. I don't know. You had lots of nicknames for lots of people. Exactly. So he would tell me one time when he had gone to Mexico,
Jonathan Block: Oh my attorney general. It was tough, it really was. I knew that I done nothing wrong. the Democrats kept pushing this. think part of it was two other reasons. One, I it was concerned Bush to the people of the Supreme Court. The Democrats did not want a Republican president to be the first Hispanic on the
Judge Gonzales: It done nothing wrong. But the Democrats kept pushing this. think part of it was two other reasons. One, I think there was concern Bush was going to put him on the Supreme Court. And I think the Democrats did not want a Republican president to put the first Hispanic on the Supreme Court. And two, because I've been in White House counsel when a lot of these controversial terrorism practices occurred,
Jonathan Block: And two, because I've been in White House counsel, a lot of these controversial terrorism practices occur.
Judge Gonzales: although most, if not all, were lawful, I was viewed as the architect. Even though John Ashcroft was the Attorney General, it was his Department of Justice that had issued all these little opinions. Nonetheless, I was sort of used as responsible for everything. And I think the Democrats viewed this as way to hurt President Bush, hurt the Republican brand, to keep me off the court, and to, you know, punish, I guess, the administration for some of the terrorism policies.
Becky Gonzales: practices occurred, although most, if not all, were lawful, I was viewed as the architect, even though John Ashcrom was the Attorney General, it was his Department of Justice that had issued all these little opinions. Nonetheless, I was sort of viewed as responsible for everything. And I think the Democrats viewed this as a way to hurt President Bush, hurt the Republican brand, to keep me off the court, and to punish, I guess, the administration for some of that terrorism policy. But this is one of the foreshadowings. This moment in time was one of the foreshadowings of how Washington works. Because there was a sitting senator from a particular state who had been lobbying, a Democratic senator who had been lobbying Al to get rid of this U.S. attorney. And yet, when he got rid of this U.S. attorney, that same person, that same senator stabbed Al in the back. about how the injustice of what he has done. was after asking him for a long time to do it. Wanting this person gone because I don't I remember the names but I'm not going to say them. Yeah, was so political though. The point was the point was people will do anything.
Jonathan Block: And yet, when he got rid of this US attorney, that same person, that same senator stabbed Al in the back about the injustice of what he has done. After asking him to do it. After asking him for a long time to do it, wanting this person gone.
Judge Gonzales: After asking him to do it. wanting this person gone because I don't I remember the names but I'm not gonna say them. Yeah we're not gonna talk about names but anyway so yeah it's so political though the the point was if the point was though people will do anything to get power and I think it also was a build-up to the next election they wanted to hurt Bush wanted to make sure
Jonathan Block: Sure, sure. It was so political though. Yeah, so political. The point was people will do anything to get power.
Becky Gonzales: to get power and I think it also was a build up to the next election. wanted, the Democrats wanted to make sure that the next president was going to be a Democrat and I think the Republicans were trying to make sure the next president was going to be a Republican. And I think that had a lot to do with our fate in D.C.
Judge Gonzales: that the next president was going to be a Democrat and I think the Republicans were trying to make sure the next president was going to be a Republican. And I think that had a lot to do with our fate in DC. What was that moment like for you as you started to see the way that power corrupts?
Jonathan Block: was a build up to the next election. The Democrats wanted to make sure that the next president was going to be a Democrat, and I think the Republicans were trying to make sure the next president was going to be a Republican. And I think that had a lot to do with our fate in D.C. What was that moment like for you as you started to see the way that power corrupts people and absolute power corrupts absolutely Becky?
Becky Gonzales: What was it like for me? But I almost expected it of the Democrats, but when it happened with our Republican friends, it was quite quite shocking. Well, people that were even friends turned their backs. People that worked in the White House. Painful.
Jonathan Block: When you saw people, when you saw the senator turn his back on the judge or I would imagine friends of yours who were friendly beforehand. Yeah, what happened with Republican friends? Is that right? Just turn their backs. What did that mean? What did that look like?
Becky Gonzales: It was very painful. Well, when the only person in D.C. that was supporting Al defending him at one point was the president.
Jonathan Block: And when you say turned their backs, what do you mean? did you know? Like when the only person in DC that was supporting out defending him at one point was the president.
Judge Gonzales: ⁓ I was calling people in the White House ⁓ are we doing? What's the plan? What's the strategy? And I remember CNN called ⁓ on one of the, did a story about Al, ⁓ a very negative story, then they said, and at end of the interview they said, ⁓ at the end the story they said, ⁓ we've called the White House ⁓ for comment.
Becky Gonzales: ⁓ And, know, I calling in the White House saying, ⁓ who's what we What's the plan? What's the strategy? ⁓ And I CNN called ⁓ on one of the they did a story about ⁓ a very negative story and then they said, and at the end of the interview they said, at the end of the story they said, we've called the White House for comment and asked if someone would come on and we didn't get a response. And that's when I knew this was bigger than Al. This was because I knew they loved him and I knew they were our friends.
Jonathan Block: very negative story and then they said at the end of the interview they said at the end of the story they said we've called the White House for comment and asked yeah wow and that's that's when I knew this was bigger than now this was because I knew they loved him and I knew I knew But there was a bigger mission, and I think then the mission was to go a more conservative direction to try and make sure that the next election was secure. It would swing the right way. So in August of 2007, President Bush asks you to consider resigning. Can you tell us about that moment and then what you and Becky did together afterward?
Becky Gonzales: But there was a bigger mission. I think then the mission was to go in a more conservative direction to try and make sure that the next election was secure. So in August of 2007, President Bush asks you to consider resigning. And can you tell us about that moment and then what you and Becky did together?
Judge Gonzales: Well, it was in the summer. I thought we had survived things. Things had calmed down. And I thought everything was going to be all right. ⁓ we were in Austin heading back. And I got a call from Josh Bolton, the chief of staff. And Josh said, ⁓ Al, he said ⁓ something like, You know, we understand there's talk about maybe possible impeachment against you when they come back. And the president doesn't want to see that happen. the best thing may be for you to step down.
Jonathan Block: President doesn't want to see that happen. And the best thing we can do is step down. And to be honest with you, it sort of took me aback. I was surprised. And I asked Josh, and I said, Josh, does the President know about this call? And he said, yes. And that's when I knew, OK, it's done. I could have called the President and completed my case, but I wasn't going do that. He's the President of the United States. And so I said, And I said, uh.
Judge Gonzales: And to be honest with you, it sort of took me aback. I was surprised. And I asked Josh, I said, Josh, does the president know about this call? And he said, yes. And that's when I knew, okay, it's done. I mean, I could have called the president and pleaded my case, but I wasn't going to do that. He's the president of United States. And so I said, okay. And I said, we made arrangements to go to Crawford. ⁓
Jonathan Block: made arrangements to go to Crawford. That was tough. The president actually called us when we were in the car. Yeah, the president also called him in the car. It was just, it was hard. Take a set moment. you fly on a plane, an FBI plane? Yeah, we fly up on the plane to Crawford. What's that like? drive up and Bush hugs me and Laura's there and we go inside.
Judge Gonzales: That was tough. the president also called in the car and it was just it was hard. Yeah, I mean we fly up to we fly up to Crawford and ⁓ drive up and Bush hugs me and and Laura's there and we go inside and we have lunch and. I have some great pictures of that of that.
Becky Gonzales: That was tough. president actually called us when we were in the car. Yeah, the president also called in the car. It was just, it was hard. us that moment. you fly on a plane, an FBI plane? Yeah, I mean, we fly up to Crawford and drive up and Bush hugs me and Laura's there and we go inside and we have lunch and...
Judge Gonzales: that event, Bush and I are sitting on the porch. He's got his cowboy boots on, his hat on, and telling me how things were going to get, things will be better as we move on. But it was, you know, was a period, I feel like I had failed.
Becky Gonzales: I have some great pictures of that event. Bush and I were sitting on the porch. He's got his cowboy boots on, his hat on, and telling me how things were going to get, things will be better as we move on. But it was, you know, was a period, I felt like I had failed.
Jonathan Block: Why? as we move on. But it was, you know, was a period, I feel like I failed. And, uh... Why?
Judge Gonzales: and
Becky Gonzales: Why? Didn't finish the mission.
Judge Gonzales: didn't finish the mission.
Jonathan Block: exhibition. ⁓
Becky Gonzales: But you didn't. Do what? You didn't fail. No, I didn't fail, but...
Judge Gonzales: But you didn't. Do what? You didn't fail. No, I don't. I didn't fail, but...
Jonathan Block: No, yeah. Becky, what's that moment like for you? So you fly down to Crawford together. What's going through your head as you fly down? This is the end of a journey. a... Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: Becky, what's that moment like for you? So you fly down to...
Judge Gonzales: What's that moment like for you?
Becky Gonzales: ⁓ was a deeply sad time. It was a deeply sad time, think, ⁓ because I knew when we came back from that trip that Al would announce ⁓ right then. ⁓ And as hectic as it all was and as the chaoticness of our life was going to slow down.
Jonathan Block: Mm-hmm. ⁓ and as hectic as it all was and as... ⁓
Becky Gonzales: I didn't want it to slow down like this. I didn't want it to be like this. So it was very, very sad. I don't remember the flight back. I don't think we told the agents, but they knew they knew because when the president called they had to get out of the car. Yeah, so we could talk to him.
Jonathan Block: And what was the flight back like?
Judge Gonzales: was going to slow down. I didn't want it to slow down like this. didn't want it to be like this. So it was very, very sad. And what was the flight back like? I don't remember the flight back. I'm sure it was very, very quiet. ⁓ think I don't I'm not even sure we even told the agents but they knew they knew they knew because when the president called they had to get out of the car yeah we asked him to leave the car and so I think that they knew this something serious was happening and I suspect the president's detail toe there told our detail what was going on and ⁓
Jonathan Block: I don't I'm not even sure we told the agents, but they knew. They knew because when the President called they had to get out of the car. Yeah, they had to get out the car. So I think that they knew that something serious was happening and I suspect the President's details told our detail what was going on. Sure.
Becky Gonzales: So I think that they knew that something serious was happening and I suspect the president's detailed, tot-r detailed what was going on.
Judge Gonzales: The other thing I think I really... I hated leaving him.
Jonathan Block: hate it. Leaving him.
Becky Gonzales: Yeah.
Jonathan Block: Can you say more about that? Becky, I want to turn to you. The phone, you told me as we were preparing for this discussion that in that season, especially after the judge announced his resignation, that the phone stopped ringing and that social invitations vanished. I wonder, did any of your friends stick with you? They did. They did. The day of Al's resignation speech.
Becky Gonzales: Becky, I want to turn to you. Okay. The phone you told me as we were preparing for this discussion that in that season, especially after after the judge announced his resignation, the phone stopped ringing. And that social limitations vanished. I wonder, did any of your friends stick with you? They did. They did. The day of Al's resignation speech.
Judge Gonzales: stop and that social invitation was banished. I wonder did any of your friends stick with you? They did. did. The day of Al's resignation speech. ⁓ You mean at Justice? Justice?
Becky Gonzales: You mean at Justice? Justice. Anne Johnson, Clay Johnson's wife, called and said, we're taking you guys to dinner. Oh my goodness. Yeah. And they, and we met them for dinner and, you know, of course we still had the detail and, and, and all that. So people knew Al was in the restaurant. And it was just like Clay and Anne just saying, we're going to, we're going to go somewhere and people are going to see you out having dinner.
Judge Gonzales: And then Johnson, Clay Johnson's wife called and said, we're taking you guys to dinner. ⁓ my goodness. Yeah, and they, and we met them for dinner and, you know, ⁓ of course we still have the detail and, and, and.
Jonathan Block: said, we're taking you guys to dinner. ⁓ my goodness. Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: You know, it was a kind thing and they've continued to be that kind friend. And we had many great friends, ⁓ both in DC and Texas and Houston, who did all kinds of kind things for us and to us during those years. ⁓ You know, gave out consulting work and ⁓ financial help at one point.
Jonathan Block: DC and Texas and Houston who did all kinds of kind things for us and to us during those years. Like what? Gave out consulting work. ⁓
Judge Gonzales: gave out consulting work and financial help at one point that was so appreciated. had one gentleman who we didn't know from Dallas who owned a place up in Montana and said go on up and take your family and go rest and get away from everything.
Becky Gonzales: that was so appreciated. We had one gentleman we didn't know from Dallas who owned a place up in Montana and said go on up and take your family and go rest and get away from everything. And you didn't know him? No, we didn't know him. had a, I mean, this was like how are we going to pay our bills? I didn't have a job and he didn't have a job and he couldn't get a job.
Jonathan Block: No kidding and you didn't know him
Becky Gonzales: and we're trying to figure out how to stay in our house. we had a banker in New Orleans who was a friend of someone close to us who said, I'm going to give you a $100,000 unsecured loan to get you guys through this until the next thing comes. And we'd use it if we needed it. We didn't use it if we didn't need it. Pay it back. He'd renew it just in case we needed it, even when we weren't using it. He was just this kind person who said, I think you've got a bad deal, and you've served our country, and I want to help.
Jonathan Block: It's amazing.
Becky Gonzales: just the kindness of strangers. You know, I think we've tried to make that kind of a cornerstone of our lives to try and pay it forward and try and be generous and try and, if you see a need, help with the need, you know, both in our families and with our friends and with people we don't know. That's, it's, you know, we're not wealthy, like many, many people that we know or that are in our orbit, and yet we're rich.
Jonathan Block: ⁓ Yeah. of our lives to try and pay it forward and try and be generous and try and if you see a need, help with a need, you know, both in our families and with our friends and with people we don't know.
Judge Gonzales: He would use it if we needed it, we didn't use it if we didn't need it, pay it back. He'd renew it just in case we needed it, even when we weren't using it. He was just this kind person who said, think you've got a bad deal and you've served our country and I wanna help. just the kindness of strangers. I think we've tried to make that kind of a cornerstone of our lives to try and pay it forward and try and be generous and try and
Jonathan Block: many many people. yet we're We're rich in...
Becky Gonzales: We're rich in love. No, I'm serious. Can you say more about that? you say we're not wealthy, we're rich, what does that mean? You know, I think...
Jonathan Block: Can you say more about that when you say we're not wealthy but we're rich? What does that mean?
Becky Gonzales: I think that what I always wanted was a home. And he's my home. I mean, he is, you know, we've been married 35 years. Can you believe it? We're old. ⁓ I've had a home the whole time.
Judge Gonzales: I think that what I always wanted was a home. And he's my home. I mean, he is, you know, we've been married 35 years. Can you believe it? We're old. We're old. I've had a home the whole time.
Jonathan Block: you believe it? We're all over over.
Becky Gonzales: And it didn't matter where we lived and it really didn't matter how much money we made. I mean, it was tough sometimes, but it was also... wouldn't change a thing. ⁓ I'd change a few things. I know, but I mean, when I look back at my life and the things that we failed ⁓ I know. I know. And where it brought us and where we're at. Yeah. Yep.
Judge Gonzales: And it didn't matter where we lived and it really didn't matter how much money we made. I mean, it was tough sometimes, but it was awesome. I wouldn't change a thing. ⁓ I'd change a few things. I know, but I mean, when I look back at my life and the things that we've been able to do. I know, and where it brought us and where we're at.
Jonathan Block: I wouldn't change a thing. No, I'd change a few things. ⁓ Yeah. So Judge, in preparation for this discussion, one of things I did was look through your resignation event, your last day as Attorney General. many people . I was not there. No, I was down the street at the White House that day. But many people spoke. The director of .
Becky Gonzales: So Judge, in preparation for this discussion, one of the things I did was look through your retirement, your resignation event, your last day as Attorney General. And many Were you there, Jonathan? I was not there. Okay. No, I was down the street at the White House that day. But many people spoke, the Director of the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Director of the FBI, and on.
Jonathan Block: the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Director of the FBI, and on and on and on. And more than 15 times in that short event, people spoke about your grace under fire. And your class. And ⁓ I wonder if in thinking about your parents ⁓ and what they taught you,
Becky Gonzales: More than 15 times in that short event, people spoke about your grace under fire. It's true. And your class. I wonder if, in thinking about your parents ⁓ and what they taught you, wonder what they, was your mom there that day? Did she see you that day? No. No. She was there.
Jonathan Block: I wonder what they, was your mom there that day? Did she see you that day? No. She was there at swearing in. At the swearing in. Yeah. But she wasn't there that day. Where did you learn those traits of grace under fire? Well, I don't know about grace under fire. Grace under pressure, 15 times. They said it 15 times. I counted because it was so, like as I read the transcript, it was so striking. Person after person said this man exhibits. they'd say it. I'm just not sure that.
Judge Gonzales: No. She was there. swearing in yeah but she wasn't heard that day well I don't know about grace under fire no I'm not saying it didn't they didn't say it I'm just not sure that the grace that I
Becky Gonzales: She was there at the swearing in. but she wasn't here that day. Where did you learn those traits of grace under fire? Well, I don't know about grace under fire. Grace under pressure, 15 times. I because it was so, like as I read the transcript, it was so striking. Person after person said this man. No, I'm not saying they didn't say it. I'm just not sure that the grace that I... It was grace under pressure. That's what they said. Grace under pressure and humility under fire. Can I say that in the governor's office was the first time I recognized
Jonathan Block: It was grace under pressure. That's what they said. Grace under pressure and humility under fire.
Becky Gonzales: that Al had this ability to stay calm when other people didn't. And he had this ability also to bring people's pressure down when something was going on. was like he wasn't going to get rattled. And I kept thinking, he's a diplomat. I had no idea because at Vincent Elkins this talent was wasted. ⁓
Judge Gonzales: Can I say that in the governor's office was the first time I recognized that Al had this ability to stay calm when other people didn't. It is true. And he had this ability also to bring people's pressure down when something was going on. was like he wasn't going to get rattled. And I kept thinking, he's a diplomat. He's, I had no idea because at Vincent Elkins this talent was wasted. Yeah, I think. You learn a lot from your parents. I mean, my parents were, they were humble. They were, pardon me? Louder. Don't be so humble. So I would, ⁓ you know, it's just been my personality. You don't show off. You're, we grew up poor. I mean, that's just the way that I was raised. ⁓
Becky Gonzales: Louder. Don't be so humble.
Jonathan Block: I would, that's just been my personality. Show off. Yeah
Judge Gonzales: And then, of course, I learned a lot from the President, extremely gracious and loyal. These are all great traits. Yeah. So there's a letter behind you from the president as a photo of you in the Oval Office. And I'm not sure if it's a letter I'm about to quote from or not, but when...
Jonathan Block: And then, of course, I learned a lot from the president. He's gracious. Yeah. So there's a letter behind you from the president as a photo of you in the Oval Office and I'm not sure if it's the letter I'm about to quote from or not but when on your last day in office as Attorney General, it's not it yeah but on your last day, sorry go ahead. I hope you do. I hope you do. Wouldn't be the first time and it sure won't be the last. ⁓
Judge Gonzales: On your last day in office, That's not it. Is it? It's not it? But on your last day, is that it? I was going to say, well, I'll let you finish, then I may have to correct you. I hope you do. ⁓
Becky Gonzales: So there's a letter behind you from the president as a photo of you in the Oval Office. I'm not sure if it's the letter that I'm about to quote from or not, when, on your last day in office as Attorney General. That's not it. That's not it. Yeah, that's not it. But on your last day, sorry, go ahead. I was going to say, well, I'll let you finish then I may have to correct you. I hope so. It wouldn't be the first time and it sure won't be the last. So President Bush wrote you this handwritten note that said, in part, Washington, DC is a treacherous
Judge Gonzales: So President Bush wrote you this kind of note that said, in part, Washington, D.C. is a treacherous place. Ambition and pettiness often displace statesmanship and service. And when that happens, individuals are treated unfairly. This happened to you. During the last months, you have maintained your composure and dignity. Your class shined brightly. Your inner soul was strong. And I wonder what it meant to you.
Jonathan Block: ⁓ So President Bush wrote you this handwritten note that said, part, Washington DC is a treacherous place. Ambition and pettiness often displace statesmanship and service. And when that happens, individuals are treated unfairly. This happened to you. During the last months, you have maintained your composure and dignity. Your class shined brightly. Your inner soul was strong. And I wonder what it meant to you to get that letter from your boss and your friend and the president.
Judge Gonzales: to get that letter from your boss and your friend and the president? Yeah. OK. First of all, the letter was written because I just looked at it before you got here, August 27. So it was the day, either the day after or the day after we left Crawford. It wasn't when I resigned, so it was in advance. He knew what was happening. And it's what I would have expected from him. I mean, wasn't surprised.
Jonathan Block: Becky, what did it mean to you to see that letter from the President of the United States?
Judge Gonzales: Becky, what is
Becky Gonzales: Becky, what did it mean to you to receive that letter from the President of the United States? Consistency. It's who he was and how he always treated us, how he always treated Al. And, you know, it was, there was so much reassurance to us with them, both as leaders, but also more as family. They were each other's. important persons. You know, it wasn't, they weren't looking outside for other people. They were that to each other. They modeled that for all of us. And that's President and Mrs. Bush. Yeah. I don't think it was just... It wasn't just for us. I it was other members of that circle. It's okay those of us who started with him in Austin and then go up to D.C., we all became part of the family. Yeah, yeah. And they, but they were, they were... ⁓
Judge Gonzales: They weren't looking outside for other people. They were that to each other. They modeled that for all of us. I don't think it was just me and Becky. I think it was other members of that circle, particularly those of us who started with him in Austin and then go up to D.C. We all became part of a family.
Jonathan Block: You know, there was so much reassurance to us with them, both as leaders, but also more as family. They were each other's important persons. They weren't looking outside for other people. They were that to each other. They modeled that for all of us. And that's President and Mrs. Bush, you mean? Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: affectionate with each other and made sure that we all knew that they were taking care of each other and that we needed to take care of each other. They modeled that for us. So they're just, they just have so much integrity and dignity and good people. We love them.
Jonathan Block: I think there's other members of that circle. Yeah. of us who started with him in Austin and then go up to DC, we all became part of the family. But they were affectionate with each other and made sure that we all knew that they were taking care of each other and that we needed to take care of each other. They modeled that for us. Incredible. They just have so much integrity and dignity and good people. Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: Yes. ⁓ you still talk to them? ⁓ Not that often. talked to them in while. I can't imagine. Well, ⁓ I can't imagine. ⁓
Jonathan Block: Do you still talk to them?
Judge Gonzales: Yes. I haven't talked to him in a while. I can't imagine what he's, well, I can't imagine how he feels about things that are happening in Washington or this country today. But he wouldn't say it. He would never speak publicly about or be critical about what's going on. But I have a pretty good idea of how he feels.
Becky Gonzales: how he feels about things that are happening in Washington or this country today. But he wouldn't say it. He would never speak publicly about or be critical about what's going on. But I have a pretty good idea about how he feels.
Jonathan Block: So let's talk now about these, what I call and Becky, you called the wilderness years. And so you leave your role as attorney general. And Becky, I wonder if you can describe what that transition was like as the judge stepped away from his role and ⁓ how your life's changed and what you did first.
Becky Gonzales: So let's talk now about these, what I call, Becky, you call the wilderness years. And so you leave your role as attorney general. And Becky, I wonder if you can describe what that transition was like as the judge stepped away from his role and ⁓ how your life's changed and what you did first. Well, first of all, what did you do your first day after you resigned? don't know. I can't remember.
Judge Gonzales: Your life's changed from what you did first. I mean, you drove into the bus stop. I remember waking up, looking out the window to see if my detail was there or not. Of course they weren't there. That's when I was a longer attorney general. And I drove our sons to the bus stop and I realized how much I'd missed of their...
Becky Gonzales: You drove the boys to school. hadn't driven in years. I mean, you drove them to the bus stop. remember waking up, looking out the window to see if my detail was in. Of course, they weren't there. That's fine. It wasn't longer a journey to Chicago. And I drove our sons to the bus stop and I realized how much I'd missed their childhood. Because he was driving them to high school and junior high. It was just, yeah, that was really something.
Jonathan Block: Sure. Wow. Yeah, that was really something I remember. And then the other thing I remember of those early days and weeks, when I was attorney general, I would often...
Judge Gonzales: childhood. ⁓ was just, it was, yeah, that was really something I remember. And then ⁓ the other thing I remember those early days and weeks, when I was the Attorney General, I would often ride a bike along the Potomac River. There's a beautiful bike path and my detail would follow behind me. And we used to do this all the time after work. And ⁓ then afterwards, when I had left the department, I would be on that same bike path, but I'd be by myself. So it was really a symbolic of me being alone, ⁓ just riding my bike by myself, wondering, okay, what's gonna happen next? ⁓ Yeah, it was a lonely period. A lot of uncertainty about what was going to happen. It was lonely between us. I think, I probably was... We didn't talk much for a good period of time. I think we were both hurting and we couldn't support each other in the hurt, so we didn't talk about it. Yeah. That's how we got through it. Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: Yeah, it was a lonely period. ⁓ lot of uncertainty about what was going to happen. It was lonely between us. We didn't talk much for a good period of time. I think we were both hurting and we couldn't support each other in the hurt, so we didn't talk about it. That's how we got through it.
Jonathan Block: Yeah, it was a lonely period. A lot of uncertainty about what's going to happen. It was lonely between us. I think so. We didn't talk much for a good period of time. I think we were both hurting and we couldn't support each other in the hurt, so we didn't talk about it. That's how we got through it. you talked about riding your bike and I'm just going to inject a little levity here. There was a story called the Wheel... There's a Washington Post story called the Wheels of Justice that talks about you riding your bike. It was a profile of you as a bike rider and among other things it talked about your your thighs like tree trunks. ⁓ I wonder how you felt about seeing your legs described that way.
Judge Gonzales: There was a story... Yes, I know what story you're talking about. was a Washington Post story called The Wheels of Justice that talks about you riding your bike and the profile of you as a bike rider and among other things it talks about your thigh like three drops. I know. I wonder how you felt about seeing your Are you kidding? Pup my muscles. That was a woman recording.
Becky Gonzales: story. ⁓ Yeah, that was a woman reporter I remember. I remember she came to the school too. She came to the kids school. remember that. Yeah,
Jonathan Block: Hahaha!
Judge Gonzales: She came to the school too. Yeah, she came to the school. I I was like, I I was just reading. So you have this period where you're... The wilderness. The wilderness. You're out of office. You're both lonely and lonely with each other, as you said. Judge, in your book, you talk about looking for work after leaving that role.
Becky Gonzales: So you have this period where you're- the wilderness. wilderness, you're out of office, you're not talking, you're both lonely and lonely with each other as you've said and Judge in your book you talk about looking for work after leaving that role and not finding it for a long
Jonathan Block: Yep, yep she did. eyes like tree trunks. I think that's great. ⁓ So you have this period where ⁓ you're... ⁓ The Wilderness, you're out of office, you're not talking, you're both lonely and lonely with each other, as you said. ⁓ Judge, in your book, you talk about looking for work after leaving that role and not finding it for a long time. And you write in those years, they were a time of reflection and growth, and that you needed time for wounds to heal. And I wonder what that means.
Judge Gonzales: Well, I mean it it hurt it hurt us And it wasn't that he didn't have any work. Yeah consulting, things like that, but but but the you're gonna be okay work Didn't come. Yeah
Becky Gonzales: right in those years, they were a time of reflection and growth, and they needed time for wounds to heal. And I what that means. Well, I mean, it hurt. It hurt us. It hurt a lot. And it wasn't that he didn't have any work. He did consulting work, and he speeches. Things like that. But the you're going to be OK work didn't come.
Jonathan Block: And it wasn't that he didn't have any work. He consulting work and he speeches. Things like that. But the you're going to be OK work didn't come. Like the partnership at a white shoe firm or that kind of thing. It had a really big smile on my old firm in Houston. Who had the entire time when we were in DC. ⁓
Judge Gonzales: Well, really basic when it was my old firm in Houston. That the entire time we were in D.C. How did the fact they would just go on and on and on now? You have a.
Becky Gonzales: really big disappointment was my old firm in Houston. Who had the entire time we were in DC. Every time they would just go on and on and on, Al you have a home here when this is over we are your home you're gonna be and ⁓ they they disappeared like steam. you know and as I write in my book a certain understanding in that when I left there were still ongoing investigations by the IG.
Jonathan Block: disappeared like steam. And you know, I started writing my book, I certain understanding of that when I left.
Judge Gonzales: and this is over, we are your home, you're gonna be, and they disappeared like steam. as I write in my book, a certain understanding in that when I left, there were still ongoing investigations by the IG, Congress is still looking at this issue, and I can somewhat understand that the firm. Well, at the time we could understand because of those, but there's no reason for them. and so that was disappointing.
Jonathan Block: still ongoing investigation by the IG. Congress is still looking at this issue. I have, I could somewhat understand that... ⁓ at the time we could understand because of those, but there's no reason for later. But that was disappointing. I former Supreme Court Justice, Attorney General of United States, County President, Harvard Law Grant... Can't get a job. And you're not interested in hiring back a former partner. that would, and so if...
Becky Gonzales: is still looking at this issue. And I can somewhat understand that... Well, at the time we could understand because of those, there's no reason for later. And so that was disappointing. mean, former Supreme Court Justice, Attorney General of United States, County Libres and Harvard Law Grant... Can't get a job. And you're not interested in hiring back a former...
Judge Gonzales: Supreme Court justice attorney. Jolly. I say is counsel the president Harvard law grad and you're not interested in hiring back a former partner so That was and so if my old firm is not willing to hire me. What are the firms gonna hire me? So That said a lot and that was just that was very disappointing but in hindsight, you know what? I think I would have been miserable after all the things that I had done
Jonathan Block: my old firm's not willing to hire me. What other firm's gonna hire me? So that said a lot, and that was very disappointing. But in hindsight, you After all the things that I've done, all practices, I mean, it's fine. But I would have been probably bored after a few years and been looking for something else. so I think it was God's way of saying, just be patient and things are going to work out for you.
Judge Gonzales: All practices, I mean, it's fine. But I would have been probably bored after a few years and been looking for something else. so I think it was God's way of saying, just be patient and things are going to work out for you. ⁓ But yeah, it was tough. But talking about sort of going in, becoming anonymous, one of those first early weeks, I'd gone to our cleaners, and I'm standing there at the counter of the cleaners, and the couple walks in. And I'm just standing there waiting for my clothes. And the woman looks at me and says to her, I guess, boyfriend or husband, well, it says to me, ⁓ she says, you look just like our good friend Paul Reyes or something like that. And I said, ⁓ really? And she says, yeah, everybody says he looks like Al Gonzales. That's when you know you're nobody. So anyway.
Jonathan Block: that man says to her, I guess, boyfriend or husband, well he to me, she says, know, you look like, just like our good friend Paul Reyes or something like that. I said, oh really? And she says, yeah, everybody says he looks like Al Gonzales. That's me though. You're nobody.
Becky Gonzales: close and the woman at me ⁓ ⁓ to me, ⁓ says, know, ⁓ look ⁓ like ⁓ good friend Paul Reyes or something like that. And I said, ⁓ really? And she says, yeah, everybody says he looks like Al Gonzales. ⁓ That's when you know you're nobody. ⁓
Jonathan Block: It's amazing. Becky, ⁓ in April 2008, about eight months after the judge left office, the New York Times reported that he was having a hard time finding a job, a story just about that. And I wonder what it was like for you to see that headline. Difficult. I mean, you know, it always felt like things would calm down and then there would be another.
Becky Gonzales: It's amazing. Becky, in April 2008, about eight months after the judge left office, the New York Times reported that he was having a hard time finding a job, a story just about that. I wonder what it was like for you to see that happen. Difficult. was, I mean, you know, it's, the, it always felt like, things would calm down and then there would be another media story that would rock the boat again. And that was just one of many, but it felt terrible. So qualified, so competent, so accomplished, and nobody wanted to make offers. And it was really crazy. What held you back during that time? Each other. Each other. think, I think.
Jonathan Block: It was really crazy. What held you, during that time? What anchored you? Each other. think the amphet. I think we both were kind of in a, we've got to get through this. What's this? Is it Winston Churchill? When you're going through hell, keep going? Yeah.
Judge Gonzales: so qualified, so confident, so accomplished. nobody wanted to make offers. And it was really crazy. What held you back during that time? Each other. Faith. I think the, and faith. I think we both were kind of in a... ⁓
Becky Gonzales: the and faith. I think we both were kind of in a, we've got to get through this. What's this? Is it Winston Churchill? When you're going through hell, keep going. I think we both kind of had those blinders on. just were going to get through it. It's going to be okay. We just, and we had to do it. You know, I would be reminded when I would think about how's this going to work out? My dad was a boy, you know, we've worked out, we'd have a
Judge Gonzales: we've got to get through this. Is it Winston Churchill? When you're going through hell, keep going? I think we both kind of had those blinders on, just were going to get through it, it's going to be okay, and we had to do it. I would be reminded when I would think about, well how's this going to work out? When my dad, growing up as a boy, we'd have a working on some kind of problem or something, said, how's this going to work out, dad? says, it's got to work out, simple as that.
Jonathan Block: It's gotta work out. Yeah, and
Judge Gonzales: confidence. It's got to work out. Eventually we knew that it would get through this and we did.
Becky Gonzales: working on some kind of problem or something. I said, how's this gonna work out, Dag? says, it's gotta work out. As simple as that. Just total confidence. It's gotta work out. So. And Al has lived by that. That's been a kind of a mantra. It didn't work out. It's gotta work out. It's gotta work out. And it did work Eventually we knew that it would get through and we did. this great story. ⁓
Jonathan Block: There's this great love story that emerges. You guys survived these five years in the wilderness and the loneliness... think there is actually something... Hispanic Moses. That's... ⁓ So, when does the loneliness between the two of you thaw?
Judge Gonzales: You guys survived these five years in the wilderness. You make me sound like Moses or something. Hispanic Moses. He was flat too. Yes he was. So when does the loneliness between the two of you thaw and you kind of begin holding hands? And Becky you talked about.
Becky Gonzales: You guys survived these five years in the wilderness and the loneliness... You guys sound like Moses or something. Hispanic Moses. ⁓ Hispanic Moses. He was flawed too. So, when does the loneliness between the two of you thaw and you kind of begin holding hands?
Jonathan Block: and you kind of begin holding hands. And Becky, you talked about that together you turn toward each other.
Becky Gonzales: I think it helped. I think it helped when It was, it's really, I was gonna say when we got back to Texas, but it was before that. think, I think, I church and, ⁓ and our friends that stuck with us and neighbors that were kind and, ⁓ you know, I think that that darkness was, was not five years. It wasn't, it wasn't even close. It was.
Judge Gonzales: It was, it's really, I was gonna say when we got back to Texas, but it was before that. I think, think the church and our friends that stuck with us and neighbors that were kind and, you know.
Becky Gonzales: months, maybe a year, ⁓ where we were just so shaken up. ⁓ But also you could kind of see glimpses of light where he was really spending time with Graham and Gabriel and I think getting to know him and I was watching him get to know them and it was good for them, it was good for him, it was great for me. ⁓ So there was light. But it was good going back to Texas. In fact, when we went to Washington, I always assumed that Houston or Austin. We'd go back to Houston or Austin. And so we were given the opportunity to go to Texas Tech in Lubbock. And just going back to Texas, it was good for us. It was good for our boys, too. Yeah. Yeah. Back to a quiet community.
Judge Gonzales: good for him, it was great for me. So there was light. But it was good going back to Texas. In fact, when we went to Washington, I always assumed that we would go back to Houston or Austin. And so we were given the opportunity to go to Texas Tech in Lubbock, and just going back to Texas was good for us. It was good for our boys too. going back to a quiet community.
Jonathan Block: We were given the opportunity to go to Texas Tech in Lubbock and just going back to Texas was good for us. It was good for our boys too. Going back to a quiet community. Why was it good for them, the boys specifically? It's small town. You don't get lost.
Becky Gonzales: Why was it good for them, the boys, specifically? Out of Washington, definitely. Yeah. It's a small town on a grid. You don't get lost. And people were kind and welcoming. And the boys went from overcrowded schools where they didn't really get to participate. you know, the top elite, know, athletes got to be on the soccer team or the football team. And we went to a small town where they got to do everything they wanted to do. And it was just a simpler life, a quieter life. was good for all of us. Judge, wrote in your book that in this season, this is a quote, you said, God had never left me or forsaken me. Indeed, he'd been there all the time. And I wonder what it meant to you.
Judge Gonzales: overcrowded schools where they didn't really get to participate. You know, the top elite, know, athletes got to be on the soccer team or the football team. And we went to a small town where they got to do everything they wanted to do. And it was just a simpler life. It was good for us. It was good for all of us.
Jonathan Block: schools where they didn't really get to participate. know, the top elite, know, athletes got to be on the soccer team or the football team. And we went to a small town where they got to do everything they wanted to do and it was just a simpler life. was quieter life. was good for all of us. Judge, you wrote in your book that in this season This is a quote, you said, God had never left me or forsaken me. Indeed, he'd been there all the time. And I wonder what it meant to you that God had never left you and how your faith changed during that season. Well, I mean, it was, it clear to me that this was all part of the plan. mean, what does that mean? You know, I've been given all these wonderful opportunities and that was part of the plan. Now, this is part of it as well.
Judge Gonzales: And I wonder what it meant to you that God had never left you and how your faith changed during that season. Well, I mean, it was clear to me that this was all part of the plan. I what does that mean? You know, I'd been given all these wonderful opportunities and that was part of the plan. And now this is part of it as well.
Becky Gonzales: I've been given all these wonderful opportunities and that was part of the plan and now this is part of it as well. hard part was part of the plan. It part of the plan. And so I think it made us stronger. ⁓ gave me an opportunity to more time with the boys, as Becky said. And so we went back to a community in Texas where it's not Washington. I they're Texans and they loved us and it was good. It was great.
Jonathan Block: The hard part was part. And so think it made us stronger. gave me an opportunity to more time with the boys, as Becky said. And ⁓ we went back to a community in Texas where, it's not Washington, mean, they're Texans and they love this. It was good. It was great. It was really, really good. We kept wondering why we couldn't buy house there.
Judge Gonzales: was part of the plan. And so I think it made us stronger. ⁓ gave me an opportunity to spend more time with the boys, as Becky said. and ⁓ we went back to a community in Texas where, it's not Washington, I mean, they're Texans and they loved us and it was good. It was great. It was really, really good. And,
Becky Gonzales: really good and we kept wondering why we couldn't buy a house there why why our roots weren't being put yeah we kept questioning a house there and then of course got at this door whole thing with Belmont came along so we're gonna get there but I want
Judge Gonzales: We kept wondering why we couldn't buy a house there. Why our roots weren't being put We never bought a house there. Then of course ⁓ the whole thing with Belmont came along. So we're going to get there, I want Becky before this discussion, you told me that you had watched the judges, former colleagues get jobs at places like Walmart, Google, and Meta. And then you told me.
Jonathan Block: Like our roofs weren't being painted. Yeah. Interesting. a house there, and then of course, the whole thing with film on it came along. So we're going to get there, but I want. Becky, before this discussion, you told me that you had watched the judge's former colleagues get jobs at places like Walmart and Google and Meta. And then you told me that if the judge had landed a role in a firm like that, you might have earned a lot of money, but it wouldn't have let you craft the life that you wanted. What does that mean? Well, I think those kind of jobs come with a high price, just like Washington did. Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: Well, I think those kind of jobs come with a high price just like Washington did.
Judge Gonzales: I think those kind of jobs come with a high price, just like Washington did. And the truth is, we finally had time for each other. And one of the things I think I missed during the years of his career soaring was I wanted his attention. I wanted more of his attention. And there just wasn't time. And I think the gift has been the time that we've had. And I think one of those jobs would have been like the White House.
Becky Gonzales: The truth is we finally had time for each other. And one of the things I think I missed during the years of his career soaring was I wanted his attention. I wanted more of his attention. And there just wasn't time. And I think the gift has been the time that we've had. And I think one of those jobs would have been like the White House or, you know. I mean, they're great jobs. No, they're great jobs. But people used to work from their.
Jonathan Block: The truth is we finally had time for each other. And one of the things I think I missed during the years of this career of story was I wanted his attention. more of his attention. And there just wasn't time. And I think the gift has been the time that we've had. And I think one of those jobs would have been like the White House. I mean, they're great jobs. They're great jobs. I'm delighted that people used to
Judge Gonzales: I mean they're great jobs and I'm delighted that people that used to work for me have gotten these great positions. think that's a testament to hopefully some lessons that they learned from me. I don't see Brett Kavanaugh who was here I guess a few months ago and others. John Roberts was also here. You we put him on the Supreme Court. Sam Alito is here because we put him on the Supreme I mean you see these people...
Jonathan Block: great positions and that's a testament to, hopefully, some lessons that they learned from me. And I don't see Brett Kavanaugh, who was here, I guess, a few months ago, and others. John Roberts was also here. We put him on the Supreme Court. He here because we put him on the Supreme mean, you see these people. Neil Gorsuch, did Gorsuch work for you as well? Neil was, yeah, he was coming to my senior staff meetings in justice.
Judge Gonzales: Neil was, ⁓ yeah, he would come to my senior staff meetings at Justice and for me it's been gratifying to help people get these positions. For example,
Becky Gonzales: see Brett Kavanaugh who was here I guess three months ago and others. John Roberts is also here. You know we put him on the Supreme Court. Sam Lito is here because we put him on the Supreme you see these people. Yeah, comes to your staff meetings at Justice and for me it's been gratifying to help people. Ted Elliott? Ted Elliott, was my Chief of Staff, was with me at the Counsel's Office in my Chief of Staff. I helped him get his position as General Counsel at NFL. That was just this year, this past year. Yeah, I love seeing these people do these great things. I'm not surprised because they all graduated from Ivy League schools. They all parted the Supreme Court. These were like superstars. So I'm not surprised.
Judge Gonzales: Ted Alliette, who was my Chief of Staff, was with me at the Counsel's Office and my Chief of Staff. I helped him get his position as General Counsel of the NFL. I loved doing that. was just this year. love seeing these people do these great things. I'm not surprised because
Jonathan Block: That was just this year. Amazing. I love seeing these people do these great things. I'm not surprised because they all graduated from Ivy League schools. They all part of the Supreme Court. These were like superstars. So not surprised at all that they're great things. So in 2012, your son was on a college visit to Nashville colleges. Yeah, you brought him. Tell us about it.
Judge Gonzales: They all graduated from Ivy League schools. They all clerked at the Supreme Court. These were like superstars. ⁓ So I'm not surprised at all that they're doing great things. It's great.
Becky Gonzales: that they're doing great things. It's great. So in 2012, your son was on a college visit to Nashville colleges. I brought him. Yeah, you brought him. Tell us about it. Becky normally would take ⁓ a grant at these college visits, but I she was sick. And so he wanted to look at some schools here. He wanted to look at Belmont, Trebekah, and Lipscomb. He wanted a faith-based institution to go to. I hadn't heard of Belmont, honestly. And so I brought him here, made a nice visit.
Judge Gonzales: So in 2012, your son was on a college visit to Nashville colleges. I brought him. Yeah, you brought him. Tell us about it. Becky normally would take Graham to these college visits, but I think she was sick. And so he wanted to look at some schools here. He wanted to look at Belmont, Treveca, and Lipscomb. He wanted a faith-based institution to go to. I had never heard of Belmont, honestly. And so I brought him here. We had a nice visit. ⁓ Shortly after that visit, they were starting the law school. hadn't been built yet. The founding dean, Jeff Kinsler, called me and asked if I'd be interested in coming to teach here. I said no. Didn't want to leave Texas. Never heard about mine, really. So ⁓ the offer got better. kept talking. ⁓ Law firm, Walr Lansing, offered me a job.
Becky Gonzales: Shortly after that visit, they were starting the law school. It hadn't been built yet. The founding dean, Jeff Kinsler, called me and asked if I'd be interested in coming to teach here. I said no, didn't want to be a tennisist. Never heard about it, really. So the offer got better. I kept talking. A law firm, Waterland, Lansing, offered me a job and Graham decided he wanted to go to school.
Jonathan Block: Shortly after that visit, they were starting the law school. had been no jet. The founding dean, Jeff Kinsler, called me and asked if I'd be interested in coming to teach here. I said no. well, you can't. said, never heard about him, really. So the offer got better. kept talking. A law firm, Walter Lansing, offered me a job and ran a signing.
Judge Gonzales: And ⁓ Graham decided he wanted to come to school here. So Becky and I said, OK, we'll go to Nashville and see what it's like. And that's how he ended up coming to Belmont Law School and teach. And I started here in the second semester of the law school. We were in a temporary building for two years before moving into this building. And then after, I guess, three or four years, I became the dean. And I've been the dean since then.
Becky Gonzales: school here so Becky and I said, we'll go to Nashville and see what it's like and that's how I ended up coming to Belmont Law School and teach. I started here in the second semester of law school. We were a temporary building for two years before moving into this building. And then after I guess three or four years I became the dean and I've been the dean since then. so, Becky. Our DC house sold.
Jonathan Block: school here so Becky and I said okay we'll go to Nashville and see what it's like and that's how you could come into Belmont Law School and teach. I started here in the second semester of the law school. were in a temporary building for two years before moving into this building and then after I guess three or four years I became the dean. I've been the dean since then. And so yeah Becky. DC house sold almost immediately when he got
Becky Gonzales: almost immediately when he got back from that trip after he got the offer from Belmont. And ⁓ from that moment on, when the house sold. If we had stayed in Texas, we would be buying a house. And now I realized we didn't buy a house there because we're supposed to buy a house in Nashville. And I could see God's hand in the whole thing. And for whatever reason, the hard parts and the good parts have just landed in a way that we're here and we finally found home.
Jonathan Block: If we had stayed in Texas, we would be buying a house. Now I realize we didn't buy a there because we're supposed to buy a house in Nashville. Amazing. I could see God's hand in the whole thing. For whatever reason, the hard parts and the good parts have just landed in the way that we're here. Texas is still home, is our home home. But we love Nashville. It's been good to us. It's a friendly, kind place and we great friends here and our kids have great friends here. So two of our sons have Belmont degrees and you heard about that, asked about Belmont. Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: Texas is still home is our home home. But we love Nashville. It's been good to us. It's a friendly, kind place and we have great friends here and our kids have great friends here. so two of our sons have Belmont degrees and you heard that Becky has Belmont degrees. Belmont has been extremely generous to us and we're very grateful. Very grateful. So Becky, you as the judge just said you.
Judge Gonzales: From that moment on when that when the house sold if we had stayed in Texas we could we would be buying a house and now I realized we didn't buy a house there because we're supposed to buy a house in Nashville and and I could see God's hand in the whole thing and for whatever reason the what the hard parts and the good parts have just Landed in a way that we're here and we finally found home Texas is still home is our home. We love Texas But we love Nashville. It's been good to us. It's a friendly kind Yeah place and Great friends here and kids have great friends here And so two of our sons have Belmont degrees and you heard that Becky has a Belmont degree. So Belmont has been extremely Generous to us and we're very grateful ⁓
Jonathan Block: So Becky, as the judge just said, earned a master's degree in social work with a focus on trauma treatment, which is interesting. And so I wonder, did your coursework on trauma especially help you process the trauma of what happened to y'all in 2007? You know, I think it's kind of like when a doctor gets a cold, he can't really help himself.
Becky Gonzales: or a master's degree in social work with a focus on trauma treatment, which is interesting. And so I wonder, did your coursework on trauma especially help you process the trauma of what happened to y'all in 2007? You know, I think it's kind of like when a doctor gets a cold, he can't really help himself very well.
Judge Gonzales: wonder, did your coursework on trauma especially help you process the trauma that happened to you in 2007? You know, I think it's kind of like when a doctor gets a cold, he can't really help himself very well.
Becky Gonzales: No, that's not true. It's helped me a great deal. I really got the trauma treatment certificate because I intended to work with young people ⁓ and I did do that ⁓ during my internships and realized it was not the place I needed to be. It was too hard for me, maybe when I was younger. ⁓ But it was, you know, our system, the way our system takes care of children in trouble is lacking.
Judge Gonzales: No, that's not true. It's helped me a great deal. I really got the trauma treatment certificate because I intended to work with young people and I did do that during my internships and realized it was not the place I needed to be. It was too hard for me, maybe when I was younger. But it was, you know, our system, the way our system takes care of children in trouble is lacking.
Jonathan Block: It's helped me a great deal. I really got the trauma treatment certificate because I intended to work with young people. And I did do that. and realize it was it was not the place I needed to be. It was too hard for me maybe when I was younger. But it was you know our system the way our system takes care of children in trouble is lacking and I couldn't I couldn't save them you know and I just couldn't do it. So hospice ended up being the right place for me.
Becky Gonzales: and I couldn't save them, you know, and I just couldn't do it. And so hospice ended up being the right place for me. So I did that. But yeah, the trauma training has helped me in many ways. It has. So you've worked now in banking and social work in Toronto and hospice. The judge is retiring from his role as dean. What's next for you?
Jonathan Block: Trauma training has helped me in many ways. I'm sure it has. I'm sure it has. So you've worked now in banking and social work and trauma and hospice. The judge is retiring from his role as dean. What's next for you? Well, he's still going to work. He's just not going to be able it. He'll still consult and have You'll be doing stuff, yeah. And I've always managed that part of our lives. So I'll still do that.
Becky Gonzales: Well, he's still going to work. He's just not going to be the dean of the law school. He'll still consult and travel and speak. And I've always managed that part of our lives. So I'll still do that. I was helping him bring baseball to Nashville. And I've kind of stepped back from that a little bit because I've got plenty to do. But we'll see.
Judge Gonzales: the judge is retiring from his role as dean. What's next for you? Well, he's still going to work. He's just not going to be the dean at the law school. He'll still consult and travel and speak. And I've always managed that part of our lives. So I'll still do that. I was helping him bring baseball to Nashville. And I've kind of stepped back from that a little bit because I've got plenty to do. But we'll see. And
Jonathan Block: ⁓ And I've kind of stepped back from that a little bit because I've got plenty to do.
Becky Gonzales: ⁓
Jonathan Block: Would you, you're about to retire, looking back, would you do it again? Would you do government service again?
Judge Gonzales: Would you or your?
Becky Gonzales: Absolutely. He'd probably do it sooner and longer. No, actually because, if you change one thing, then everything else has to change. I do have regrets about, I think, some of way that I handled the accusations. I think I could have handled those better, hey, it is what it is. You learn from every stumble in life. I think you learn and you get up and you move on.
Judge Gonzales: Absolutely. You'd probably do it sooner and longer. No, actually because, look, if you change one thing, then everything else has to change. so, no. I do have regrets about, I think, some of the way that I handled the accusations. I think I could have handled those better, but hey, it is what it is. you learn from every stumble in life. I think you learn and you get up and you move on.
Jonathan Block: what it is.
Judge Gonzales: forward and upward. Right forward and upward. You've been through a lot together. Right. have this amazing story of faith and love. You've walked through to quote the 21st Psalm, the valley of the shadow of death and emerged to find goodness and mercy on the other side.
Jonathan Block: You've been through a lot together, the two of you have. You have this amazing story of faith and love. You've walked through, to quote the 23rd Psalm, the valley of the shadow of death and emerged to find goodness and mercy on the other side. And I wonder what advice you would give to someone else who's facing their own wilderness.
Judge Gonzales: you to get to someone else who's facing their own wilderness. You know, I would say try to stay optimistic and there's a plan. Life, from my perspective, life is just full of so many setbacks. And sometimes you try something, it fails. You try again, it fails. And you think, why do I keep trying? And you keep trying because the next time, as long as there's hope, the possibility of success, you do that. And with every failure, there's a lesson you learn from every failure. And so from my perspective, persistence is an important trait and something that I learned, think, from my parents. And ⁓ so the advice I would give is just... keep you know I want to go to sound on whether to keep your head down or get your head up but you got to keep moving forward yeah just know that okay got to get through this it's gonna be over things are going to get better and I always had that faith I've always been very optimistic a very optimistic person and yeah it was tough but I guess I always sense it
Becky Gonzales: I don't know to keep your head down or get your head up, but you gotta keep moving forward. And attitude. Yeah, just know that, gotta get through this, it's gonna be over, things are gonna get better. And I always had that faith. I've always been a very optimistic person. yeah, it was tough, but I guess I always sensed hey, I've some great things that happened in my life. It's gonna happen again.
Judge Gonzales: hey, I've had some great things that have happened in my life. It's going to happen again. just always had that confidence that it was going to all be OK. ⁓
Becky Gonzales: always had that confidence that it was going to all be okay. would tell someone, find your faith because none of us are God and we don't control everything that happens to us. It's not possible. you know, find what you can believe in and trust that good and bad are going to happen because that's life, but you'll get through it. Some people may wonder, how could God...
Jonathan Block: Yeah, it was tough, I guess I always sense that, hey, I've some great things that happened in my life. It's going to happen again. I ⁓ always had that confidence that it was going to all be OK. And Becky, what about you? What advice would you give? I would tell someone, find your
Judge Gonzales: None of us are God and we don't control everything that happens to us. It's not possible. know, find what you can believe in and trust that good and bad are gonna happen because that's life, but you'll get through it. You know, some people may wonder, you know, how could God allow this to happen? And I'm reminded that, you know, God is not the author of everything that happens on earth. He's a master of the universe, but he's not the author. things happen. Bad things happen. Innocent children die and you might wonder how could God ⁓ let this happen? ⁓ God is not the author of everything that happens on this earth. That's just the way it is. At the end of the day, salvation comes at the end. When you die, you're reunited with Christ.
Becky Gonzales: He's a master of the universe, but he's not the author of God. That's why things happen. Bad things happen. If his children die, you might wonder how God let this happen. Imperfect people, imperfect world. Yeah, God is not the author of everything that happens in this world. That's just the way it is. At the end of the day, a salvation comes at the end. When you die, you're reuniting with Christ. Becky, what was your answer?
Jonathan Block: Becky, what would you add? ⁓ you think about your future together, what's next?
Becky Gonzales: That was pretty good. I don't think I'd add anything. As you think about your future together, what's next? Well, we hope to spend more time. ⁓
Judge Gonzales: Pretty good. OK. As we think about your future together, what's next? Well, we hope to spend more time with our grandkids. And our children. And our children, and each other. Maybe do a little traveling, but I'm not ready to retire entirely.
Jonathan Block: could spend more time with our grandkids and our children and each other. Maybe do a little traveling.
Becky Gonzales: with our grandkids and our children and each other. Maybe do a little traveling, but I'm not ready to retire entirely. I think I'm still having some kind of relationship here at Belmont. Maybe not necessarily with the law school, but with the university generally. ⁓
Judge Gonzales: I think I may end up still having some kind of relationship here at Belmont. Maybe not necessarily with the law school, but with the university generally. ⁓ Serve on a couple of boards, that'll continue. Speaking. Yeah, although I've been very careful at Becky's request about going out and speaking because it's just hard right now for me to speak publicly and not be critical. Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: several couple of boards that'll continue. ⁓ Speaking. Yeah, although I've been very careful of Becky's request about going out speaking because it's just hard right now for me to speak publicly and not be political. Critical. Yeah.
Jonathan Block: I I'm still having some kind of life here at Belmont. Maybe not necessarily with the law school, but with the university generally. ⁓ Serve a couple boards, that'll continue. Speaking. Yeah, although I've been very careful of Becky's request about going out and speaking because it's just hard right now for me to speak publicly and not be critical. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Gonzales: I never want him to get too political when he's doing media and now he'll be free to do whatever he wants. ⁓ you're always measured. Always measured. But he'll still do a lot of speeches, not just media. ⁓
Jonathan Block: ⁓ So last question for you and it is ⁓ as best I can tell you have never sat for a joint interview together ever that I can remember.
Judge Gonzales: he's doing media and now he's free to do whatever he wants. Well, but I'll be very measured of course. Oh, you're always measured. Yeah. But he'll still do a lot of speeches, not just media. So, question for you, is, as best I can tell you have never sat for a joint interview together, never.
Becky Gonzales: I will say at the Department of Justice, we did an interview about Project Safe Childhood. That's the only time we've ever. and we have one more. We have one more that we did and it was during the inauguration with a Houston Sheriff Friar who was our local anchor in Houston who came up to DC for the inauguration and interviewed our whole family at breakfast. So that was kind of fun. But yeah, this is this is the third
Judge Gonzales: say at the Department of Justice we did an interview about Project Safe Childhood. That's the only time we've ever... I have a big picture of New York Times. have one more that we did and it was during the inauguration with Sheriff Fryer who was our local anchor in Houston who came up to DC for the inauguration and interviewed our whole family. I remember that too. So you're not the first, I'm sorry.
Jonathan Block: Oh my goodness, okay. The third, Well thank you.
Becky Gonzales: The third time in his life. But he's given thousands. I only did it because it was you. It's true. Yeah, I trust you.
Judge Gonzales: But it's the best one.
Jonathan Block: Well, thank you. I appreciate it immensely. Thank you so much. I appreciate both of you a lot and I've learned a lot from both of you over the years. what a wonderful thing to hear your story. I appreciate you telling me. Thank Thank you. Don't mess it up. I'll try not to.
Judge Gonzales: Okay, thank you. Don't mess it up. Okay,
Becky Gonzales: Thank you.
Judge Gonzales: that's what I everyone all the youngsters don't up ⁓
Jonathan Block: That's all I All the youngsters, don't mess up.
