Introducing: Arts Educators Save the World (feat. Jonathan Groff)

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Lemonada.
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Hey, listeners, and especially grown-up listeners who believe in arts education. Today,
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I wanted to share an episode from the new season
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of the podcast, Arts Educators Save the World, featuring the
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Tony-winning actor Jonathan Groff. You know, from Hamilton and.
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Some other stuff, too.
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Arts Educators Save the World features conversations between incredible artists
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like Jonathan with the arts educators who molded them.
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You can find it wherever.
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You listen to podcasts by searching for Arts Educators Save
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the World. We'll be back later in the week with
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a new episode of the Story Pirates podcast. But in
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the meantime, please enjoy this episode of Arts Educators Save
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the World right after a few words for the grownups.
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It's a real paradox.
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It's probably why it's so hard and special to find
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teachers that can hold both of those things, which is
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challenge and joy, and how they speak to each other,
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and how that's the only way to grow. Mary Poppins says,
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in every job that must be done, there is an
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element of fun. You find the fun and snap the
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jobs a game. And that is the key to life.
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This is Arts Educators Save the World, where successful artists
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and their mentors talk about how arts education transformed their lives.
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Hey, welcome back, Alec. It is so good to be
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talking to you again.
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Fantastic to be back. I'm glad that we're getting this
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train rolling again.
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For our new listeners, welcome. We are so glad that
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you are here with us. For our returning friends, welcome back.
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We are delighted that we are changing our format from
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a season format to an always-on format.
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But if you are new... Fear not.
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You can check out our back catalog of 22 incredible interviews.
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of artists and their mentors talking about arts education. We've
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got double EGOT winner Robert Lopez of Frozen and Book
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of Mormon fame. We've got producer Doug's favorite guest, MacArthur
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Genius Grant winner and ceramicist Bill Strickland. We've got memoirist
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and number one podcast host Chelsea DeVantes. Alec, who are
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some of your favorite guests that we've had on the show?
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I've enjoyed our Broadway run, which started fairly strong with
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Lin-Manuel Miranda.
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I've heard of him.
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Who some of our guests may have heard of. Annalee
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Ashford and Josh Radner. For me, Bradley Whitford, we had
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the same theater teacher, and that was just an incredible
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experience to be able to talk about him. So check
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out those early episodes. And, you know, we get these
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folks together with their mentors. Some of them kept up
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with their mentors over the years. Some of them, they
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haven't spoken in literally decades. We did this show so
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that there could be a love fest with these artists
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and their teachers.
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And it's really what it turned into.
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And I think that shows in their voices and in
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these talks we've gotten to have with them.
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And so we are going to kick off with an
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unbelievable guest. Theater, movies, TV, he's done it all. Jonathan
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Groff is such a gem of a human being. And
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he and his elementary school music teacher, Linda Tuff, gave
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us a delightful hour of their time where I could
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not believe how many specific memories they had of their
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work from 30 years ago. Jonathan is so connected to
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those early experiences in the arts as the foundation for
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his life as a learner.
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Greetings, everyone.
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I'm really excited for today's conversation. As listeners know, we
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always get started with a two-level introduction. So first, I
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tell everyone about the amazing artist here with us, and
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then that artist gets to introduce their mentor. Today, I
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have decided to do my artist introduction in the style
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of his most recent role. That is, starting from the
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end of the story and making our way back to
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the beginning.
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Nice.
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Jonathan Groff is a bonafide.
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Star of stage and screen.
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He is the reigning best actor in a musical, winning
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the Tony Award for his portrayal of Franklin Shepard in
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Stephen Sondheim's Merrily We Roll Along. If theater is your thing,
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you may also know Jonathan as Seymour Krelborn in Little
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Shop of Horrors, or... for his iconic portrayal of King
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George III in Lin-Manuel Miranda's Hamilton. Though he first earned
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his Broadway celebrity stripes as Melchior Gabor in Spring Awakening,
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a rock musical based on a German play about coming
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of age. If you're more of a movie buff, you
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probably saw Jonathan as Agent Smith in Matrix Resurrections, And
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you definitely heard him as both Kristoff and his reindeer
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Sven in the Frozen cinematic universe. And if TV really
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is your thing, you are probably a fan of Jonathan
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as FBI agent Holden Ford in Mindhunter. And these are
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just the highlights. Jonathan is one of the hardest working
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actors across all of these media, which is all the
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more reason to be thrilled that he's taken the time
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to be with us as we work our way back
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to the beginning of his story. Jonathan Groff, I'm so thrilled.
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Thank you so much for joining us. I can't wait
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for you to introduce the real star of the podcast,
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which is actually why you're here today.
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Yes, Erica. Oh my gosh.
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Thank you so much for that beautifully written and creative
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and artistic introduction. I appreciate all of that. Thank you
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for having me. Thank you for all that you do.
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So honored to be here on this podcast and be
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a part of your mission and what you've been doing
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via your book, via this podcast. And now, it is
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my honor to introduce the incredible, incomparable Linda Tuff. Linda
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was born and raised in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. She graduated
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from Conestoga Valley, which is the same school district that
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she taught in for most of her career. Linda is
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still proud to be a CV buckskin. first as a
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student and then as a teacher. After she finished high
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school at CV, Linda went to Eastern Mennonite University and
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graduated with a degree in music education and piano performance.
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She spent one year teaching in Broadway, Virginia, before starting
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her epic career back in the Conestoga Valley School District
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at Smoketown Elementary School. Linda taught music to students from
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kindergarten through sixth grade. She was also the choir director
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for two choruses. In 2002, she started the school's first
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TV studio program where she produced a show every morning
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for the morning announcements. Linda spent an incredible 35 years
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at Smoketown Elementary School. Currently, Linda is the minister of
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music at her church. She has been playing for church
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since she was 14 years old. She is also a
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wedding officiant. Linda has been married to her husband Mitch
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for 36 years. They have two children. Her son Cameron
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lives with his family in D.C. They have two kids.
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Her daughter Camille and her family live in New Jersey.
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They have one child. Linda loves being Mimi to her
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three beautiful grandchildren. Linda also loves dogs, and she's got two,
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a sheepadoodle and a shih tzu named Bentley and Oakley.
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Coming to us from her home in Akron, Pennsylvania, please
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welcome the amazing Linda Tuff.
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Wow, Jonathan, thank you. Thank you so much. It is
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a true joy. to see Jonathan and also to meet
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all of you. And Erica, I love the idea. I
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love this book. I have to read it because I
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lived it. So thank you. I'm really looking forward to
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speaking with all of you.
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Thank you so much.
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We usually like to get started with telling the story
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of the time that you first remember working together. And
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it's okay if it's not the same story, but the
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kind of origin of your collaboration is a really nice
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place to get started. So either of you feel free,
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but what's the first thing you remember about working together?
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My first, so my mom is also an educator and
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she taught physical education.
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With me, yeah, we're buds.
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Yeah, with Linda.
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And my brother is three years older than me and
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had Linda as a teacher before I was there. And
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I remember my brother and my mom both talking about
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how incredible Mrs.
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Tuff was.
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As a teacher and as a person and how much
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I was going to love her. And I remember I
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met her when I was in fourth grade. That was
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our first time really properly working together, fourth grade music class.
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And I remember seeing her in the hallways and going
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to my brother's chorus concerts that she was conducting. and
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being so magnetized to her just from afar, even before
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I met her, like she was this magical music person
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that I couldn't wait to meet and get to know.
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And I remember my, I can't remember if it was
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my mother or my brother telling me that she was
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really into the TV show, I Love Lucy, which was
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also my big passion in fourth grade. And so I
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remember the first day of music class in fourth grade,
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intentionally wearing an I Love Lucy t-shirt that I had
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because I wanted to connect with her so badly. And
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I remember her going around the room to, you know,
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everyone had to say their name on the first day
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of music class and sitting back in my chair and
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like projecting my chest forward so that she could see
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my I Love Lucy shirt because I so desperately wanted
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her to like me and to connect with her.
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And she did.
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And she was like, oh, Jonathan.
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You like, it was like my plan had worked as
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a fourth grader. And it was, that was to me
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the beginning of our connection. I was really forcing it
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and doing, I was very extra.
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Yeah, but then we did the Vitamita Vegeman skit, remember? Hello,
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I'm your Vitamita Vegeman girl.
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Are you tired?
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And we would do this together.
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Yes.
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Because that's a Lucy skit.
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Yes.
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I do remember that. And I also remember your first
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performance was in the talent show in fourth grade. where
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you sang the Christmas song, the Hawaiian one. Melekawiki.
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Melekawiki maka is a thing you say.
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Yes.
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That was his first performance. Yeah, that was awesome.
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Yes, yes.
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I do remember that. I remember you loving the concerts
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and you and your mother coming up afterwards. My chorus
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didn't just sing. We did a lot of movements. We
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did songs that were upbeat and got the kids really
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involved because that's what I wanted to do. have them do,
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to love course, not be bored up there. Then I
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was waiting for him to come into my class. At
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this time, I was part-time teaching because my children were babies.
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And so I didn't have Jonathan from kindergarten on up,
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which I wish I would have. So I started with
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him in fourth grade. It was a remarkable three years.
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He's amazing. I mean, you just You have a student
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that comes in, and I love them all, but I
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really loved having Jonathan in my class. And then I
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knew his mom so well, and Jonathan just loved learning.
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He loved everything we did. And of course, he was
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mega talented. I don't know. It's his wonderful personality. He
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was down to earth, even as a fourth grader. And
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I just, I loved having him. And I remember sixth
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grade graduation. You and Gene and Barrett came back to
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my classroom after the ceremony was over. And do you remember,
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we just sat in there and we almost cried together
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because that was it. He was leaving me. I was
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so sad, you know, but I had a great three years.
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And when we had many performances together, many, many, and
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I just loved being his teacher. I loved it.
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I feel like I want to cry even just like
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talking about all this. And I want to say one
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quick thing is that like, you say that I loved learning, but.
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You made me love learning.
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Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. Cause you did
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love it. You, you did, you loved learning and you
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had that special spark and it was, it was just
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so amazing. And chorus was so much fun with you.
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You got all the solos, remember? And that was on purpose.
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It was just really.
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A great time.
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I don't even know how to put it into words.
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It's just so amazing.
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Can I ask about this, not to be sort of
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poking a stick in something emotional, but this idea.
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Of coming to love learning.
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Jonathan, can you say what that means to you?
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In other words, was it music? Have you always.
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loved to express yourself musically? Or was it the way
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that Linda engaged you as a nine-year-old person with music?
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Not to be a nerd, but can we unpack that
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idea a little bit of like, what does it mean
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to come to love learning?
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Yeah.
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It's that magical thing that happens with certain educators. Sometimes
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there's a star person, there's a charismatic person that It's
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like you go from seeing in black and white to
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seeing in color. And, and I always loved music and
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I always liked singing and I always liked performing, but
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I had had, you know, music lessons before I had
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been singing before, whether it was church or with other
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people in school.
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But there was a way that Linda and a few
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of my other teachers, whether it was something, you know,
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it was a math teacher that I had, Mrs. Callahan,
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or it was Sue Fisher in eighth grade, a drama teacher.
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There's a certain handful of teachers that do this magical
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thing where they can meet any student where they are
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at on their particular journey. And if the student is
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open to it, it's like they're like Mary Poppins or
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it is magical like that. It's like they have this
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magical ability.
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And Linda is the queen of this, to take students
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where they are and then lift them up I thought
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of her two months ago because another gift that she
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gave me too, this is like as a, as a
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performer that I really remember was in chorus. It was,
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it was not like it was all fun and games.
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She was really about the work and really about getting
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it right. Getting the harmonies. Like she, it wasn't like
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it was, uh, we were there just to have fun.
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She created a joyful environment, but she was also quite
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a taskmaster.
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When it came to notes and cutoffs. I remember this
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one song.
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It was like, I know what you're going to say.
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Let us, let us walk in peace.
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And she was like, you're walking in pee until I
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cut you off.
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Like the, let us.
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Walk in peace.
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You know, it was, she was really hard about the
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cutoffs and really demanded a level of excellence when we
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would be rehearsing. But when we got to the performance,
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it was about joy and it was about a celebration
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of the work that you had done to get to
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that moment.
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And it was about entertaining the audience.
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And it was about having a good time once you
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got to the show. And I remember like we working
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so hard in the preparation and then being so like
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released to fly in the performance, because once we got
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to the performance, I remember walking onto the riser and
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being like, okay, got to get the cutoffs.
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Got to get the thing, got to get the notes.
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And then Linda shocked us all by having these signs
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that she would lift up that said, smile.
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And she would look at us and smile.
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And it was a sign that only the singers could
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read that the audience couldn't see these like secret signs.
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And then we were like, and then a sign that said,
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have fun.
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And she was like the, all of a sudden the
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joy came out and this revelation of, Oh, We worked
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so hard to know what we were doing. So in
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this moment of performance, we could fly, which is a
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different muscle than what you're working in rehearsal. And a
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lot of actors still that I work with to this
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day don't understand that difference. That sometimes it's like they
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enjoy the rehearsal process and then there's something unfulfilling about
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the performance or they're miserable through the rehearsal process because
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they only want to get to the performance But you
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need the discipline and the release of both to really succeed.
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And I learned that.
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And I still think of that so much from Linda Tuff.
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That's a specific performance thing.
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Yeah.
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That was one of my goals as a music educator.
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Thank you so much. Because I didn't want to put
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children up there that were not ready. And I would
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tell them, you know, everyone has a part in this.
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Everyone can do something. And that's where the key to
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the love of learning, I really tried in my class
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to find something for everyone so that they felt like
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they could learn. Even to the students who didn't like music,
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I would find things for them to do that maybe
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weren't music-oriented, like rolling up chords. They were excellent at
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rolling up mic chords. Or watching the air conditioning unit,
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making sure it's working. Or there's tons of things. And
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you know, they come back to me now and they're like,
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we loved your class. You let me.
335
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Roll up chords.
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I'm like, well, Thank you for rolling them up because
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I hate doing that. So it's like there's so many things.
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And those students also would run the lights at the
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performances or hook up the mics or move those heavy
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choral risers. There's something for every one. And my goal
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was because I had these kids, you know, year after year.
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And my goal was that when they look back at music,
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they remember I learned in there but I also felt
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that I was something in there and I had some
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kind of success because maybe their day was horrible up
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until then maybe their home life is a problem but
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I wanted them to feel like you're welcome here and
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you can enjoy yourself here But I control the fun. Yeah.
349
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And let me just say, as someone, I'm here visiting
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a friend. I got to see her show, her incredible singer.
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I got to see her show last night. And after
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the show, I wrapped up all the chords for them.
353
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So I want to thank you. As someone who would
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have been a chord rapper, thank you from all of
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them as well. They appreciate it, I can guarantee.
356
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You're very welcome.
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And to me, it was just something very simple to
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make them feel like they can do it because maybe
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they struggled in all the other subjects and I wanted
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them to have success in my class. And of course,
361
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what do we want? We as a teacher, we want
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to have lifelong learners. That degree of learning looks different
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with each student. Jonathan, do you remember the show Looking
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Great in 98?
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Oh my gosh, yes.
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That was a big show. Yeah, I took each fifth
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and sixth grade class along with the phys ed teacher
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and each class we picked a popular song and they
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did like a dance routine or like jump ropes or,
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but your class did basketball, basketball routine. And each class
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came on the stage. It was a huge show and
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we had all kinds of props and it was called
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Looking Great in 98 because it was in 1998. And
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in our.
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Version, I remember we did, and this is another example
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of you bringing in music and involving people that maybe
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music wasn't their quote unquote thing that they thought they
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were good at. But in that performance that I really
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00:21:42.940 --> 00:21:46.420
remember from sixth grade was that was part of that
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kind of talent show thing was our class.
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Like you said, it was basketball.
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To Space Jam theme.
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To Space Jam, which was the big movie that year.
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And it was like everybody was I'm not good at basketball,
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but it's music, so I can throw a basketball on
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the beat. And it was this fusion, you and Lori Greiner,
387
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the amazing gym teacher, bringing together physical education and music,
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which we think of as opposing forces. But the fact
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that you brought those two things together in your school
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was so profound and so deep. And the way that
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it allowed me to feel good at phys ed and
392
00:22:24.029 --> 00:22:26.009
allowed the kids that were good at sports to feel
393
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good at music, And the way that it brought us
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together as a class and as a community and the
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teamwork and the amplification of everybody's talents, it's like a
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movie or a TV show. It sounds corny, but the
397
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way that you brought those things together was so profound
398
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and so deep and created friendships and bonds that wouldn't
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have happened otherwise. But that's the quality, the essential quality
400
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that I'm talking about, about these educators that go above
401
00:22:54.460 --> 00:22:58.720
and beyond, which is not your technical job requirement. It
402
00:22:58.779 --> 00:23:01.920
is not your job requirement to teach life. That was
403
00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:04.599
your choice. That was what you brought into that room
404
00:23:05.059 --> 00:23:07.839
and into all of our lives. That is, it's what
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changes our lives and changes who we are as a world.
406
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As a society.
407
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It's like the teachers like that, that do.
408
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That, getting paid, you know, nothing that, that are just
409
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doing that out of the goodness of their souls and
410
00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:24.539
hearts that are, it's like the most essential job. And
411
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to choose to go above and beyond is just like
412
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such a privilege to all of the kids.
413
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It's such a gift.
414
00:23:31.230 --> 00:23:34.609
Thank you so much. I just wanted to say one
415
00:23:34.630 --> 00:23:37.390
more thing. My music class was a combination of phys
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00:23:37.430 --> 00:23:40.869
ed and music all the time because we did exercises
417
00:23:40.910 --> 00:23:44.609
to music. I believe I'm really a big proponent of
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movement and then also letting the children create movements and
419
00:23:49.190 --> 00:23:51.869
create routines. We did dance routines all the time that
420
00:23:51.890 --> 00:23:56.000
the kids created. I think that is so important. So
421
00:23:56.720 --> 00:24:00.400
that was a big thing as well. But more importantly,
422
00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:03.640
music isn't just music. They have to learn how to
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be good humans. That was my goal. And Jonathan is
424
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one of the best humans.
425
00:24:11.269 --> 00:24:13.890
I remember when he won best human last year. It
426
00:24:13.910 --> 00:24:16.009
was a really nice award.
427
00:24:16.049 --> 00:24:18.819
That was good.
428
00:24:18.859 --> 00:24:21.400
He deserves it. He definitely deserves it.
429
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:25.180
Did you learn all these things in teacher school?
430
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No.
431
00:24:26.259 --> 00:24:26.460
No?
432
00:24:27.099 --> 00:24:28.240
Great question.
433
00:24:28.359 --> 00:24:28.980
Okay.
434
00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:35.190
Well, you mean I learned the academic behind teaching music
435
00:24:35.309 --> 00:24:38.410
and being an educator. Because when you're in music ed,
436
00:24:38.450 --> 00:24:42.410
you also have to take all the education classes. I learned,
437
00:24:42.569 --> 00:24:44.940
and then with piano performance, of course, I honed my
438
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:47.880
skills to the best they will ever be. And then,
439
00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:50.579
of course, in student teaching is when you really, you're
440
00:24:50.619 --> 00:24:54.069
in the trenches now. Now it's like, now here we go.
441
00:24:54.730 --> 00:24:58.349
And that's where you really learn the job because you
442
00:24:58.390 --> 00:25:02.549
have to handle the classroom. Because the colleges, when I
443
00:25:02.589 --> 00:25:06.880
was in school, discipline of classroom, classroom structure wasn't even
444
00:25:06.910 --> 00:25:11.619
really discussed. And that's huge. Teachers need that. So as
445
00:25:11.660 --> 00:25:14.240
a student teacher, you learn that then from your co-op.
446
00:25:14.819 --> 00:25:16.980
And then when I became a teacher, I would teach
447
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:22.079
my student teachers about classroom structure. But I learned... through
448
00:25:22.170 --> 00:25:26.859
experience and you learn what works and what doesn't and
449
00:25:27.700 --> 00:25:30.839
not everything works for every single child or every single
450
00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:34.059
class you gotta the one thing about teaching is it's
451
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:39.220
never boring and don't teach with that glass barrier in
452
00:25:39.259 --> 00:25:41.839
front of you we're like I'm the teacher you're the
453
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student and blah blah blah blah you know what I'm
454
00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:46.859
trying to say you gotta get in there with them
455
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and get to know them as people and get to
456
00:25:50.099 --> 00:25:53.049
their level and then they learn they learn. And that's
457
00:25:53.089 --> 00:25:53.789
what your job is.
458
00:25:54.349 --> 00:25:58.950
I think it's so fascinating to hear you articulate sort
459
00:25:58.990 --> 00:26:02.009
of how you came to be the kind of teacher
460
00:26:02.230 --> 00:26:06.220
that you are because, you know, so many of the
461
00:26:06.259 --> 00:26:10.339
things that Jonathan mentioned, for example, having a culture of
462
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:14.619
high expectations, right, which is a sort of fancy version
463
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:17.579
of what I heard you saying around, like, no, we're
464
00:26:17.619 --> 00:26:20.619
not just singing songs for fun. Like, we're learning to
465
00:26:20.660 --> 00:26:26.869
be a practicing choir that has particular qualities that make
466
00:26:26.930 --> 00:26:28.950
it a good version of what it is, right? So
467
00:26:28.990 --> 00:26:32.779
having a culture of high expectations, connecting to the cultural
468
00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:36.740
assets that kids bring with them into the classroom, this
469
00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:40.359
kind of you know, what I would call, well, I
470
00:26:40.380 --> 00:26:42.829
wouldn't call it this, what scholars would call kind of
471
00:26:42.940 --> 00:26:48.589
legitimate peripheral participation. What I would call like, there's lots
472
00:26:48.650 --> 00:26:51.329
of jobs you can do in art making and all
473
00:26:51.349 --> 00:26:56.269
of them are important. Like all of these features are
474
00:26:56.349 --> 00:26:59.769
things that I try to teach as a teacher of teachers,
475
00:27:00.529 --> 00:27:06.029
but is very hard to articulate outside of the context
476
00:27:06.069 --> 00:27:08.809
of actually doing it. So hearing you say like, yeah,
477
00:27:08.829 --> 00:27:10.690
you can kind of learn the academics of it, but
478
00:27:10.730 --> 00:27:13.369
it's not until you're in front of a group of
479
00:27:13.430 --> 00:27:17.369
kids that you mess your way through some of those strategies.
480
00:27:18.269 --> 00:27:22.190
Well, sort of. I do remember in college, my one
481
00:27:22.269 --> 00:27:25.150
education professor, she would have a Sunday night get together
482
00:27:25.170 --> 00:27:28.880
at her house and it was just snacks and stuff.
483
00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:32.299
And she was the education professor and And she was
484
00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:36.460
a music educator before she became a college professor. So
485
00:27:36.619 --> 00:27:39.779
that's where I learned a lot of real life, like
486
00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:44.019
she would say, tell us about her experiences. And she
487
00:27:44.059 --> 00:27:46.460
would tell us, you know, what works and what doesn't.
488
00:27:46.609 --> 00:27:51.150
And that was so helpful. Rather than always learning about
489
00:27:51.190 --> 00:27:54.470
the history of education. And I mean, I know that's important, too.
490
00:27:54.750 --> 00:27:57.549
I'm not saying it's not. But it's really important to
491
00:27:57.589 --> 00:28:02.210
be able, you have to be able to to teach students.
492
00:28:02.289 --> 00:28:04.210
And in order to do that, you have to have
493
00:28:04.269 --> 00:28:07.869
some kind of structure so they listen. And then you
494
00:28:07.890 --> 00:28:12.599
want them, my class was 99% participation. You know, I
495
00:28:12.619 --> 00:28:15.940
didn't do take notes, here's a book, read this, blah, blah, blah. No,
496
00:28:16.059 --> 00:28:19.119
we were all about doing. So since it was such
497
00:28:19.160 --> 00:28:23.319
an active classroom, the expectations had to be there. So
498
00:28:23.420 --> 00:28:26.849
I included the children in actual classroom rules, like what
499
00:28:26.890 --> 00:28:29.410
would you like to see in this classroom? And those
500
00:28:29.450 --> 00:28:32.029
are the rules that We would follow and they weren't,
501
00:28:32.069 --> 00:28:33.829
it wasn't a long list. You kept it to three.
502
00:28:34.750 --> 00:28:36.990
Did you learn how to do that instinctually?
503
00:28:37.130 --> 00:28:39.859
How, like, how did you, like, when you say I'm
504
00:28:39.900 --> 00:28:43.140
teaching life or you, or you talk about, you know,
505
00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:45.279
you got to meet the kids where they are and,
506
00:28:45.339 --> 00:28:47.380
you know, you have to have a structure. Was this
507
00:28:47.420 --> 00:28:50.390
something that just, you saw, you know, you saw a
508
00:28:50.410 --> 00:28:52.789
little by example in the student teachers and the Sunday
509
00:28:52.829 --> 00:28:55.250
night get togethers at college, but would you say that
510
00:28:55.309 --> 00:28:58.859
it's like your personality and just like who you are
511
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:02.099
as a person that led you to this sort of
512
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:04.740
like ethos as a teacher, like over.
513
00:29:04.619 --> 00:29:06.640
Time, where did you learn this?
514
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:07.539
I don't know.
515
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:10.039
So the special magic sauce that you have, I guess
516
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:10.960
I'm trying to figure out.
517
00:29:12.609 --> 00:29:16.029
I don't know. It just came naturally from the time
518
00:29:16.109 --> 00:29:19.269
I started at Smoketown, Mr. Peach, the principal, you know,
519
00:29:19.289 --> 00:29:20.910
that he would come in four times a year to
520
00:29:20.930 --> 00:29:23.549
evaluate and everything. And he always loved what he saw.
521
00:29:23.750 --> 00:29:28.420
So I mean, He'd always say, this is great. This
522
00:29:28.500 --> 00:29:30.839
is great. And I don't know.
523
00:29:31.579 --> 00:29:35.609
I guess it's just– Did the structure evolve as kids changed,
524
00:29:35.690 --> 00:29:36.990
as the times changed?
525
00:29:37.150 --> 00:29:37.470
Yes.
526
00:29:37.710 --> 00:29:38.670
Like how did that go?
527
00:29:38.829 --> 00:29:45.029
Yeah. Because our school, our clientele, clientele students changed from
528
00:29:45.069 --> 00:29:46.849
the time you were there, Jonathan, until the time I
529
00:29:46.890 --> 00:29:50.349
retired three years ago. So you either sink or swim.
530
00:29:50.970 --> 00:29:53.140
That's pretty much how it is. And so I chose
531
00:29:53.180 --> 00:29:56.400
to swim. Although some days I thought I was sinking,
532
00:29:56.440 --> 00:30:00.910
but no. You have to reach these children And that's
533
00:30:00.970 --> 00:30:03.630
the key. I guess part of it is natural because
534
00:30:03.670 --> 00:30:06.369
I really don't work at it. I don't feel fake.
535
00:30:06.710 --> 00:30:07.849
Does that make sense?
536
00:30:08.150 --> 00:30:09.930
Yeah, yeah. I have a question.
537
00:30:10.130 --> 00:30:14.109
What do you do when the enthusiasm is not there?
538
00:30:14.789 --> 00:30:17.490
Is there an element of letting go as a teacher
539
00:30:17.579 --> 00:30:21.440
when you're like, because you can't reach every student and
540
00:30:21.460 --> 00:30:24.099
the thing of meeting the students and like the ones
541
00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:27.660
that you miss, the ones where you don't find the connection?
542
00:30:27.779 --> 00:30:29.759
Is that something that you just have to have personal
543
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:32.359
peace with? How do you let that go? Like, how
544
00:30:32.380 --> 00:30:34.130
do you handle that aspect of it?
545
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:38.019
So I had seven classes a day.
546
00:30:38.039 --> 00:30:39.180
Oh, my God.
547
00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:43.569
Seven 45-minute classes a day, plus TV studio in the
548
00:30:43.589 --> 00:30:47.789
morning and parent pickup duty in the afternoon. Now, that
549
00:30:47.829 --> 00:30:50.210
being said, I saw a lot of kids all day long,
550
00:30:50.470 --> 00:30:53.380
and I saw almost the whole school. So at that time,
551
00:30:53.470 --> 00:30:57.109
our school was like 600 students. I'm not going to
552
00:30:57.930 --> 00:31:03.289
get to everybody. I try. But I did struggle with that.
553
00:31:03.390 --> 00:31:05.549
And then I thought, you know what? I did everything
554
00:31:05.609 --> 00:31:07.390
I could. I have to let it go.
555
00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:08.579
Let it go.
556
00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:08.680
Okay?
557
00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:15.559
I just had to let it go. Yeah. Because I tried.
558
00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:20.220
And sometimes... If I didn't connect with a student in
559
00:31:20.259 --> 00:31:22.660
my classroom, believe it or not, I might connect with
560
00:31:22.700 --> 00:31:24.740
them when they're waiting for their parent to pick up.
561
00:31:24.940 --> 00:31:28.049
I don't know. We talk about something else. And then
562
00:31:28.089 --> 00:31:33.029
some students, you know, they didn't like school. They didn't
563
00:31:33.089 --> 00:31:36.269
want anything. I don't know. At least I know I
564
00:31:36.309 --> 00:31:40.059
gave my 100%. That was my goal. Every day, do
565
00:31:40.099 --> 00:31:42.099
the best you can, and that's all you can do.
566
00:31:43.230 --> 00:31:47.299
This conversation is so in line with, I mean, everyone will.
567
00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:48.140
It's available now.
568
00:31:49.019 --> 00:31:49.779
I'm going to get it.
569
00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:53.119
It's so in line with the book, which talks about, again,
570
00:31:53.420 --> 00:31:56.220
it's not how arts education saves artists.
571
00:31:56.759 --> 00:31:58.769
It's how it can save the world and.
572
00:31:59.230 --> 00:32:01.869
How arts can save education, not how arts can just
573
00:32:01.910 --> 00:32:02.609
save artists.
574
00:32:03.170 --> 00:32:07.289
And you've talked about life, obviously. It's all about life.
575
00:32:07.329 --> 00:32:09.690
But very practically, I mean, this connection of music and
576
00:32:10.230 --> 00:32:12.730
Phys Ed is like, that deserves a chapter in Erica's
577
00:32:12.769 --> 00:32:15.670
next book of how do we use these practices here
578
00:32:15.730 --> 00:32:19.839
in the arts to move into everything, math, gym, and life.
579
00:32:20.380 --> 00:32:25.480
And Jonathan, what you're saying about the art of preparation
580
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:28.759
versus the art of performance, the practice of preparation versus
581
00:32:28.779 --> 00:32:32.109
the practice of performance and its purposes, can you connect
582
00:32:32.140 --> 00:32:35.109
that to you as a human, whether as a student
583
00:32:35.170 --> 00:32:39.049
in other disciplines and other classes or just in life?
584
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:42.819
How has that become a part of who you are,
585
00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:43.400
if it has?
586
00:32:44.279 --> 00:32:45.519
Oh, my God. It's everything.
587
00:32:45.740 --> 00:32:46.099
Yes.
588
00:32:46.299 --> 00:32:48.759
It's this balance.
589
00:32:49.059 --> 00:32:52.500
And it's an impossible balance to be perfect at. But
590
00:32:52.559 --> 00:33:00.250
it's this attempt to be intentional and be hardworking and
591
00:33:00.269 --> 00:33:05.309
have goals, have focus, have a path forward, have a
592
00:33:05.410 --> 00:33:08.470
plan of where you want to be, and then.
593
00:33:10.279 --> 00:33:13.339
Releasing that plan and knowing that, you know, it's like
594
00:33:13.660 --> 00:33:16.000
we make plans and God laughs or whatever the famous
595
00:33:16.039 --> 00:33:21.529
saying is. It's that idea of rehearsal versus performance is
596
00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:25.670
so universal because we all rehearse our lives. We might
597
00:33:25.710 --> 00:33:30.269
even rehearse what we're going to do this morning. And,
598
00:33:30.910 --> 00:33:32.910
you know, like where are we going? You're getting in
599
00:33:32.950 --> 00:33:34.890
your car to go somewhere. You're meeting a friend. You're
600
00:33:34.910 --> 00:33:36.400
having a plan about what is going to happen.
601
00:33:36.759 --> 00:33:37.579
And then, of course.
602
00:33:38.390 --> 00:33:41.630
every moment of every day is not how we planned it.
603
00:33:41.769 --> 00:33:47.759
So it's impossible balance of preparation meeting reality, but that
604
00:33:47.930 --> 00:33:52.279
this kindness with yourself of you're in the performance and
605
00:33:52.339 --> 00:33:55.140
it's not going to be perfect. And so having the,
606
00:33:55.279 --> 00:33:58.180
in the performance of life, whether it's a romantic relationship,
607
00:33:58.259 --> 00:34:01.759
a friendship, you're at your job, you're a teacher who's
608
00:34:01.819 --> 00:34:04.900
not reaching a student, there's always going to be pieces
609
00:34:04.980 --> 00:34:08.679
of the puzzle that aren't adding up in the perfect
610
00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:13.099
world of what you would like to happen. But having breathability,
611
00:34:13.380 --> 00:34:17.980
having joy, like Linda would lift the sign, smile. Linda
612
00:34:18.019 --> 00:34:20.949
would lift the sign, have fun. This is the grand
613
00:34:21.070 --> 00:34:25.170
subtext that underlays all of our best made plans and
614
00:34:25.269 --> 00:34:28.989
all of our desires in life is smile, have fun.
615
00:34:29.030 --> 00:34:31.449
At the end of the day, if you can bring
616
00:34:31.510 --> 00:34:36.219
that to your discipline and your hard work and manage
617
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:40.989
to somehow Find that brief moment where you can be both.
618
00:34:41.449 --> 00:34:44.590
That's something I think worth striving for in every aspect
619
00:34:44.630 --> 00:34:44.949
of life.
620
00:34:45.269 --> 00:34:48.929
May I add something there? I just remembered. I've been
621
00:34:48.969 --> 00:34:51.010
out of school three years, but I can still remember
622
00:34:51.050 --> 00:34:57.800
what all happened. Anyways, with rehearsal with the chorus, I
623
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:00.800
would tell the kids when it was getting like, you know,
624
00:35:01.099 --> 00:35:02.960
oh my gosh, we're not getting this, and they get frustrated.
625
00:35:03.530 --> 00:35:06.139
I would say, I'm frustrated too. I think it's just
626
00:35:06.179 --> 00:35:09.360
the action of come to where they are. Like, I'm
627
00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:14.219
human too. You know, this isn't sounding good. Let's go.
628
00:35:14.380 --> 00:35:19.079
This is stinking right now. And so I would come
629
00:35:19.139 --> 00:35:21.300
to their level, but then I always would tell them,
630
00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:25.389
this isn't fun right now, but it's going to be
631
00:35:25.449 --> 00:35:29.309
fun when you get it right. And that little moment...
632
00:35:29.769 --> 00:35:31.889
of not to say that I was all about fun
633
00:35:31.909 --> 00:35:33.789
because I wanted them to learn, but I also wanted
634
00:35:33.809 --> 00:35:37.369
them to enjoy it. But fun doesn't necessarily mean no
635
00:35:37.409 --> 00:35:40.960
structure because that was not who I was. But fun,
636
00:35:41.059 --> 00:35:43.519
I'm like, when you get up on that stage, I
637
00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:46.980
want you to be happy with what you've done. And
638
00:35:47.019 --> 00:35:48.880
that's why we're putting all the work in now. And
639
00:35:48.920 --> 00:35:52.199
I'd always say, we're building a house, the foundation. Now
640
00:35:52.219 --> 00:35:54.179
we're on the first floor. Come on, let's get to
641
00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:58.199
this second floor. And it's that sort of idea where,
642
00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:02.360
Meet them in the trenches with them. And I think
643
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:05.559
it also is you have to develop a trust with
644
00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:08.460
your students because they had to trust me that they
645
00:36:08.500 --> 00:36:10.519
were going to enjoy being on that stage and they
646
00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:14.260
were going to have fun eventually. And then when they did, oh,
647
00:36:14.389 --> 00:36:16.949
it was like a light bulb went off. It was magical.
648
00:36:17.170 --> 00:36:20.329
It was magical just for me, too. I mean, sometimes
649
00:36:20.369 --> 00:36:21.849
I would just want to cry at the end of
650
00:36:21.929 --> 00:36:25.369
songs because it was so great. But, yeah. Yeah.
651
00:36:25.900 --> 00:36:32.099
I often talk about the importance of scaffolding risk-taking, both
652
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:38.260
for learning in general, but also specifically how different kinds
653
00:36:38.300 --> 00:36:43.679
of art making provide that scaffolding, right? So rehearsals with
654
00:36:43.719 --> 00:36:47.320
respect to choral music, being among other people who are
655
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:48.820
singing the same parts you.
656
00:36:48.940 --> 00:36:50.199
Are, having.
657
00:36:50.829 --> 00:36:55.190
particular forms of performance that maybe take you up to
658
00:36:55.230 --> 00:36:57.530
the part where you're standing in front of a group
659
00:36:57.550 --> 00:37:02.980
of strangers. I've been thinking a lot about the concepts
660
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:07.139
of fun and joy. And, you know, you've mentioned it
661
00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:11.300
a lot today, but I think there's this frankly wrongheaded
662
00:37:11.400 --> 00:37:17.760
idea in education and in learning that difficulty and fun
663
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:19.949
are opposites.
664
00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:20.860
Right?
665
00:37:20.940 --> 00:37:26.400
So if you're doing something quote unquote hard, then it
666
00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:31.199
can't possibly be joyful or fun. And my favorite thing
667
00:37:31.400 --> 00:37:37.769
about arts learning is how much on display the relationship
668
00:37:37.829 --> 00:37:43.050
between difficulty and joy is. Not just so that we
669
00:37:43.070 --> 00:37:45.170
can say like, ha ha, our classes are better than
670
00:37:45.210 --> 00:37:51.440
your classes, but also for kids, for learners who maybe
671
00:37:52.179 --> 00:37:54.550
shy away from things that are difficult because they feel
672
00:37:54.590 --> 00:37:56.570
like a failure or they feel like they don't know
673
00:37:56.610 --> 00:37:59.489
how to do things, that if they're in a space
674
00:38:00.090 --> 00:38:06.449
that is joyful and difficult, it provides that drive to
675
00:38:06.590 --> 00:38:08.929
do more things that are difficult, to push yourself, to
676
00:38:08.969 --> 00:38:10.699
take a risk, to see.
677
00:38:10.510 --> 00:38:11.510
The joy in that risk.
678
00:38:11.570 --> 00:38:14.159
And I hear so much of that, Linda, in the
679
00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:17.219
way that you've worked with kids for 40 years.
680
00:38:18.300 --> 00:38:22.050
Yes, I totally agree with you. Also, like I said
681
00:38:22.230 --> 00:38:26.090
in the beginning, everyone could do something. So everyone's scaffolding
682
00:38:26.230 --> 00:38:30.570
is different, okay? And a job as a teacher is
683
00:38:30.610 --> 00:38:32.889
you need to get to know your children a little bit,
684
00:38:33.010 --> 00:38:36.300
and then you can guide that scaffolding. And some will
685
00:38:36.340 --> 00:38:39.079
be like here, and some will only get here. But
686
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:42.639
these right here, it's important, and it's success. And then
687
00:38:42.659 --> 00:38:45.800
that just like spreads out into other areas of their life.
688
00:38:45.860 --> 00:38:49.150
And that's the way. It should be because we all
689
00:38:49.190 --> 00:38:52.590
know when we think, oh, I can't do that. And
690
00:38:52.610 --> 00:38:55.230
we do it. Then we feel more successful to try
691
00:38:55.289 --> 00:38:55.849
something else.
692
00:38:57.849 --> 00:38:59.070
It's a real paradox.
693
00:38:59.150 --> 00:39:02.289
It's probably why it's so hard and special to find
694
00:39:02.929 --> 00:39:07.019
teachers that can hold both of those things, which is
695
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:11.980
challenge and joy and how they speak to each other
696
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:15.559
and how that's the only way to grow. Mary Poppins
697
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:17.460
says in every job that must be done, there is
698
00:39:17.480 --> 00:39:19.579
an element of fun. You find the fun and snap
699
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:23.519
the jobs a game. And that is really, that is
700
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:24.800
the key to life.
701
00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:26.610
That that, that.
702
00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:30.980
Meeting kids, which Linda was such an expert at, which
703
00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:33.500
you said in the beginning of when you can find
704
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:37.500
where each student is on their journey and give them
705
00:39:38.059 --> 00:39:42.710
just enough to feel challenged, but not writing them off
706
00:39:42.929 --> 00:39:47.269
if they quote unquote can't do something because there's always,
707
00:39:47.820 --> 00:39:50.130
There's always space for some kind of growth, but it
708
00:39:50.869 --> 00:39:55.610
takes that teacher to comprehend that very complex idea to
709
00:39:56.590 --> 00:40:01.679
unlock it in the students. It's such a profound gift
710
00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:04.699
and privilege to be on the receiving end of someone
711
00:40:04.719 --> 00:40:10.460
that's going to challenge you and celebrate you simultaneously. It's everything,
712
00:40:10.539 --> 00:40:12.480
and it's such a hard concept to understand.
713
00:40:13.639 --> 00:40:16.659
That's interesting. Yeah. Well, thank you. I tried to do that,
714
00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:20.599
so I'm glad I succeeded. I always tell the kids
715
00:40:20.659 --> 00:40:22.880
in chorus, you know what? No one's getting benched here.
716
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:25.840
This isn't a sports team where you're second string, third string.
717
00:40:26.380 --> 00:40:30.869
You are all first string. Everybody in this chorus. And
718
00:40:30.909 --> 00:40:33.769
the boys, especially the boys that were really into sports,
719
00:40:34.230 --> 00:40:37.369
they enjoyed being in chorus. And I love that. I
720
00:40:37.510 --> 00:40:38.070
love that.
721
00:40:38.630 --> 00:40:39.090
Because.
722
00:40:39.719 --> 00:40:43.320
You know, it wasn't like, oh, chorus is just for girls. No,
723
00:40:43.880 --> 00:40:47.139
it was for everybody. And I would say, you're not
724
00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:50.489
being benched here. You know, and then sometimes if they
725
00:40:50.530 --> 00:40:52.150
weren't doing what I was saying, I would be like,
726
00:40:52.369 --> 00:40:54.349
I really wish I could bench you, but I won't.
727
00:40:55.010 --> 00:41:02.250
And so, again, connecting. It's all about connecting.
728
00:41:02.949 --> 00:41:04.190
I wonder if you all have this.
729
00:41:04.610 --> 00:41:08.929
I definitely, I don't want to say only me.
730
00:41:09.409 --> 00:41:12.070
Get joy from the difficult things. And I guess maybe I,
731
00:41:12.230 --> 00:41:15.150
I've always thought this was an illness, but, or I
732
00:41:15.190 --> 00:41:18.909
guess I just learned correctly, but that, that is absolutely,
733
00:41:18.929 --> 00:41:21.489
I am just thinking about this. I maybe for the
734
00:41:21.530 --> 00:41:24.340
first time here on this podcast. So thank you for that.
735
00:41:24.460 --> 00:41:28.199
But as an artist who, for whom that was always
736
00:41:28.260 --> 00:41:32.719
true in the learning portions, it's absolutely what I look for.
737
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:38.050
I can't wait to be on set doing something impossible. That's,
738
00:41:38.570 --> 00:41:40.920
that's the best part. Why would you want to be
739
00:41:40.980 --> 00:41:44.260
anywhere else? Is that, I see a lot, Jonathan, I
740
00:41:44.260 --> 00:41:47.019
made a lot of nodding from Jonathan. Is that true
741
00:41:47.059 --> 00:41:47.619
in your life?
742
00:41:48.260 --> 00:41:48.539
Yes.
743
00:41:49.800 --> 00:41:55.690
It's another paradox because I struggle with the phrase, no pain,
744
00:41:55.750 --> 00:42:01.159
no gain, because we don't want people to torture themselves.
745
00:42:01.239 --> 00:42:07.059
There can be a self-destructive aspect to like, this hurts,
746
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:08.940
so it must be doing me good. And that's not
747
00:42:09.079 --> 00:42:11.440
always the answer, but.
748
00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:14.920
Growth is always painful.
749
00:42:15.940 --> 00:42:20.889
Growth is, whether it's emotional growth, physical growth, there is
750
00:42:20.949 --> 00:42:25.829
an element of, at the very least, uncomfortableness. And having
751
00:42:26.010 --> 00:42:30.079
a teacher that can contain a space for you to
752
00:42:30.300 --> 00:42:34.730
feel uncomfortable and make that okay whether that's by their
753
00:42:35.070 --> 00:42:39.860
support of that feeling, whether that's by hitting that note
754
00:42:40.219 --> 00:42:43.000
or standing in front of a group of people and
755
00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:46.519
having it be a success, not a failure that can
756
00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:51.400
push you through that feeling of being uncomfortable. But people
757
00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:54.099
destroy their lives to avoid feeling uncomfortable.
758
00:42:55.159 --> 00:42:55.480
Yes.
759
00:42:55.639 --> 00:42:58.139
And feeling, you know, I don't know if it's so
760
00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:02.199
far as pain, but it sometimes is also extremely painful
761
00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:06.820
to grow But yeah, there's always that element in order
762
00:43:06.980 --> 00:43:10.139
to evolve. It's never, you're never not going to be
763
00:43:10.179 --> 00:43:11.880
dealt with discomfort.
764
00:43:13.340 --> 00:43:16.659
I really do think that some of that too is
765
00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:21.050
the way you are raised by your parents. Like Jonathan,
766
00:43:21.250 --> 00:43:25.570
your parents were realistic and they work hard at their jobs.
767
00:43:26.090 --> 00:43:29.769
You saw that work ethic and I raised my kids too.
768
00:43:29.809 --> 00:43:32.619
You don't give up. We're not giving up. Give up
769
00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:36.789
is not an option. And, you know, sometimes parents tend
770
00:43:36.829 --> 00:43:40.409
to coddle too much and like, oh, that's painful. So
771
00:43:40.429 --> 00:43:42.769
we're not going to do that. But sometimes they need
772
00:43:42.809 --> 00:43:45.489
a little urging. You got to experience a little bit
773
00:43:45.530 --> 00:43:50.429
of the frustration because that's when you grow. That is
774
00:43:50.570 --> 00:43:54.510
when you grow. You are so correct. I understand. Alec,
775
00:43:54.570 --> 00:43:57.130
I understand exactly what you're saying. The challenge is there
776
00:43:57.170 --> 00:43:59.710
and you think, but when you do it, it's like
777
00:43:59.750 --> 00:44:01.449
you look forward to that growth.
778
00:44:02.070 --> 00:44:06.139
Yes, yes. And those nerves that I had a young
779
00:44:06.199 --> 00:44:09.539
girl ask me the other day, like her mom actually
780
00:44:09.659 --> 00:44:11.800
asked on behalf of her and she was standing there,
781
00:44:12.280 --> 00:44:15.659
you know, she has stage fright, but she loves to perform.
782
00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:17.010
What do you say?
783
00:44:17.610 --> 00:44:21.409
And just what you said, Linda, that heart racing, that
784
00:44:21.510 --> 00:44:23.789
shaking hand, that nervous mouth.
785
00:44:23.889 --> 00:44:24.530
I still get it.
786
00:44:24.530 --> 00:44:29.130
Me too. Yeah, that dry mouth, that whatever. This is
787
00:44:29.230 --> 00:44:31.139
not something to run away from.
788
00:44:31.739 --> 00:44:32.309
Embrace it.
789
00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:35.489
Embrace it. It's a sign of growth. We're growing. This
790
00:44:35.590 --> 00:44:38.630
is evolution. This is a great sign.
791
00:44:38.650 --> 00:44:41.969
This is a green light. Again, I don't want to
792
00:44:42.690 --> 00:44:49.010
promote self-destruction, but when it comes to these things like nerves, anxiety, fear,
793
00:44:49.210 --> 00:44:52.869
uncomfort on the path to growth, these are great green
794
00:44:52.969 --> 00:44:57.550
flags that you are on the right path. That confusion,
795
00:44:57.630 --> 00:45:04.420
that discomfort, that strange feeling that heart racing is like
796
00:45:04.500 --> 00:45:08.340
the two thumbs up that you're heading somewhere that's really exciting.
797
00:45:08.389 --> 00:45:09.260
Work past it.
798
00:45:09.869 --> 00:45:10.170
Yeah.
799
00:45:10.769 --> 00:45:13.269
But that's not always easy, but yes, you are correct.
800
00:45:13.769 --> 00:45:16.690
Work past it. You can do it. That was one
801
00:45:16.710 --> 00:45:18.489
of my signs that I held up too. It said,
802
00:45:18.570 --> 00:45:19.130
you can do it.
803
00:45:19.130 --> 00:45:21.110
You can do it. Yeah, I remember that one. Yep.
804
00:45:24.070 --> 00:45:27.110
Got that from Nike. Have any of you heard.
805
00:45:27.989 --> 00:45:31.730
The phrase, the zone of proximal development. Linda, I might
806
00:45:31.949 --> 00:45:33.650
imagine you have heard that before.
807
00:45:33.710 --> 00:45:34.760
No? No.
808
00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:40.840
So the great developmental psychologist Lev Vygotsky, who is one
809
00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:48.510
of the kind of foundational developmental psychologists in education— gets
810
00:45:48.570 --> 00:45:50.510
critiqued a lot because it turns out that most of
811
00:45:50.530 --> 00:45:52.269
the research he did was on his own children.
812
00:45:52.289 --> 00:45:53.570
So people.
813
00:45:54.750 --> 00:45:59.400
Tend to feel a little funny about making claims based on, hey,
814
00:45:59.559 --> 00:46:01.460
I worked with my two kids and here's what happened.
815
00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:06.690
But he had this idea that the ideal space for
816
00:46:06.750 --> 00:46:12.570
learning is just beyond what a kid can do independently.
817
00:46:12.989 --> 00:46:18.090
So the zone of proximal development is the space where
818
00:46:18.130 --> 00:46:24.070
you can do work that requires connection and assistance, not
819
00:46:24.289 --> 00:46:28.769
so much that you feel like you're not making the
820
00:46:28.809 --> 00:46:33.760
leap yourself, but not so little that it's something that
821
00:46:33.800 --> 00:46:38.800
you already can do. And this conversation sort of strikes
822
00:46:38.840 --> 00:46:41.679
me as like, How do you work in the zone
823
00:46:41.699 --> 00:46:45.079
of proximal development? Jonathan, I think the no pain, no
824
00:46:45.099 --> 00:46:47.699
gain a little bit is like, well, a lot of
825
00:46:47.739 --> 00:46:51.050
times when we're quote unquote out of school or not
826
00:46:51.090 --> 00:46:53.030
with a teacher, you feel like you have to do
827
00:46:53.070 --> 00:46:58.530
that yourself. And that can be really alienating to say like,
828
00:46:58.570 --> 00:47:00.869
how do I push myself beyond what I'm capable of
829
00:47:00.949 --> 00:47:05.650
by myself? But a good teacher lets you kind of
830
00:47:05.730 --> 00:47:09.469
sit in that space of discomfort but with the knowledge
831
00:47:09.550 --> 00:47:17.960
that there's assistance or there's collaboration kind of in that space.
832
00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:21.539
That is so well articulated.
833
00:47:21.579 --> 00:47:23.559
Yeah. It has a name. I didn't know it had
834
00:47:23.599 --> 00:47:26.519
a name. I can come up with.
835
00:47:26.409 --> 00:47:30.210
A 50-cent name for almost anything in education.
836
00:47:30.530 --> 00:47:32.550
It's a gift. That's awesome.
837
00:47:34.230 --> 00:47:37.710
In what ways did you continue to have a relationship
838
00:47:37.750 --> 00:47:41.550
beyond sixth grade? And I ask that because, you know,
839
00:47:41.630 --> 00:47:44.420
sometimes when we talk with artists and mentors, it's an
840
00:47:44.619 --> 00:47:45.860
active relationship.
841
00:47:46.159 --> 00:47:47.840
You all had your primary education.
842
00:47:48.619 --> 00:47:52.000
Mentorship relationship between Jonathan, between the ages of like nine
843
00:47:52.059 --> 00:47:52.960
and 12.
844
00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:54.900
How did you continue.
845
00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:57.920
To work together or what ways did you think about
846
00:47:57.960 --> 00:47:59.579
this mentor-mentee relationship?
847
00:48:00.820 --> 00:48:04.039
The first one practical thing that happened that I remember,
848
00:48:04.059 --> 00:48:07.219
I don't know if you remember this, Linda, but Linda
849
00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:11.650
and I stopped being direct teacher-student once I graduated from
850
00:48:11.710 --> 00:48:13.710
sixth grade. And she talked about the moment where we're
851
00:48:13.769 --> 00:48:14.190
in the room.
852
00:48:14.210 --> 00:48:14.670
Sad day.
853
00:48:14.690 --> 00:48:17.030
Emotional. Yeah, this is it, you know?
854
00:48:18.500 --> 00:48:19.260
And that was true.
855
00:48:19.460 --> 00:48:23.860
As like the end of any collaboration, you know, the
856
00:48:24.139 --> 00:48:26.719
time comes when life happens and you get older, whatever,
857
00:48:26.760 --> 00:48:30.010
you graduate. And yet, as I spoke to like the
858
00:48:30.070 --> 00:48:32.829
things I learned still stay within me, I would go
859
00:48:32.869 --> 00:48:34.750
and visit her in the classroom.
860
00:48:34.769 --> 00:48:37.130
Oh, I loved it. And when I would.
861
00:48:37.010 --> 00:48:40.800
Visit her as like an early teenager into my teenage
862
00:48:40.820 --> 00:48:44.099
years at middle school and high school, whenever I would
863
00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:46.900
walk into that room, it was like a plug right
864
00:48:46.960 --> 00:48:50.380
back into this, exactly what we're talking about.
865
00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:54.039
Discipline, joy, growth, music.
866
00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:55.219
It was like, Oh, that's great.
867
00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:57.869
Oh, you go, you, you just feel that it's like,
868
00:48:58.190 --> 00:49:01.110
I can even smell whatever your perfume is. Like even
869
00:49:01.130 --> 00:49:03.570
seeing you right now on the screen, I can smell you.
870
00:49:03.590 --> 00:49:03.909
I can.
871
00:49:04.250 --> 00:49:07.070
And that smell is related to that feeling of being
872
00:49:07.110 --> 00:49:09.510
that age. I can, I go right back and it's like, Oh,
873
00:49:09.570 --> 00:49:11.809
I remember. And then when I was a freshman in,
874
00:49:13.630 --> 00:49:17.710
high school, I was going to audition for, so now
875
00:49:17.750 --> 00:49:22.010
I was 14, and I was going to audition for
876
00:49:22.090 --> 00:49:27.769
the local community theater production of Peter Pan. And I contacted,
877
00:49:28.110 --> 00:49:30.010
even though I had many teachers, you know, in the
878
00:49:30.190 --> 00:49:34.909
middle school, early high school, I contacted Linda Tuff. And
879
00:49:35.010 --> 00:49:40.829
thinking about it subconsciously, why didn't I ask a fellow
880
00:49:40.869 --> 00:49:43.949
student that played the piano, my current.
881
00:49:43.909 --> 00:49:46.329
High school choral teacher who I also.
882
00:49:46.130 --> 00:49:50.809
Really enjoyed, or my middle school choir teacher who I
883
00:49:50.889 --> 00:49:55.880
also really enjoyed? I contacted Linda Tuff if I could
884
00:49:55.940 --> 00:50:01.159
go to her classroom and go through this song. I sang,
885
00:50:01.239 --> 00:50:04.389
I don't know why I chose to go against type
886
00:50:04.469 --> 00:50:07.150
for my first ever audition for a musical and sing
887
00:50:07.269 --> 00:50:08.469
If I Were a Rich Man.
888
00:50:08.289 --> 00:50:09.210
From Thunder on the Roof.
889
00:50:09.230 --> 00:50:11.989
If I Were a Rich Man.
890
00:50:13.420 --> 00:50:15.900
And I think there was something about the, I was
891
00:50:15.980 --> 00:50:18.320
so scared to audition. It was the first time I
892
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:21.380
had ever auditioned for a musical. And I could have
893
00:50:21.420 --> 00:50:23.739
brought it to my high school choir teacher to help
894
00:50:23.780 --> 00:50:26.139
me or the middle school. But there was something about
895
00:50:26.179 --> 00:50:30.539
the safety of going back to Linda and who wouldn't
896
00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:34.949
bat an eye at what, there's like a, anything goes
897
00:50:35.269 --> 00:50:37.289
when you're in fourth and fifth and sixth grade. There's
898
00:50:37.309 --> 00:50:41.269
no right or wrong thing to sing. She created an
899
00:50:41.329 --> 00:50:45.389
environment at that age, at that essential age, where everybody
900
00:50:45.449 --> 00:50:48.969
has a place. And so I think subconsciously, I must have,
901
00:50:49.510 --> 00:50:52.280
out of like a deep fear that I was feeling
902
00:50:52.340 --> 00:50:54.239
of like, is this the right or wrong thing?
903
00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:56.599
I don't know. Let me go back to Linda.
904
00:50:56.360 --> 00:51:03.039
Tuff, who is pure joy and technique and non-judgment and
905
00:51:03.099 --> 00:51:06.519
go and tap into my fourth grade self wearing the
906
00:51:06.610 --> 00:51:09.570
I Love Lucy shirt. Cause at this point I'm through puberty.
907
00:51:09.630 --> 00:51:11.650
It's like, you know, I'm in a different place now.
908
00:51:12.750 --> 00:51:15.710
And she helped prepare me for that audition.
909
00:51:16.389 --> 00:51:18.969
And I got the, I got, got Curly the Lost
910
00:51:19.010 --> 00:51:21.909
Boy from that audition, which was the first theatrical thing.
911
00:51:21.929 --> 00:51:24.219
So that was even as a, as a young teenager, um,
912
00:51:24.639 --> 00:51:28.079
Years outside of the elementary school classroom, I went back
913
00:51:28.159 --> 00:51:32.380
and she helped me. And then we'd go visit all
914
00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:35.079
the time through the years. And Linda's come and seen
915
00:51:35.119 --> 00:51:37.380
me in shows through the years. And we've stayed connected
916
00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:41.079
that way. And, you know, my mom and Linda taught together.
917
00:51:40.840 --> 00:51:41.539
For many years.
918
00:51:41.599 --> 00:51:44.099
And we're friends. We'd go down to the farm with
919
00:51:44.119 --> 00:51:45.219
the horses and the pool.
920
00:51:45.780 --> 00:51:46.199
Yes.
921
00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:49.820
Also, do you remember when you had your first audition
922
00:51:49.860 --> 00:51:50.639
in New York City?
923
00:51:50.659 --> 00:51:51.969
Mm-hmm.
924
00:51:52.170 --> 00:51:53.710
Mm-hmm. Yep.
925
00:51:54.070 --> 00:51:59.579
And... I, I had an old cassette recorder and I play,
926
00:51:59.739 --> 00:52:01.440
I think you did. If you were, if I was
927
00:52:01.500 --> 00:52:03.579
a rich man there too, didn't you? Or no, you
928
00:52:03.639 --> 00:52:06.860
played me. I don't remember.
929
00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:10.000
Anyways, soon it's going to rain from the fantastic.
930
00:52:10.059 --> 00:52:10.920
So that's what you played.
931
00:52:11.059 --> 00:52:14.219
Okay. I, and I did his accompaniment. So he goes
932
00:52:14.260 --> 00:52:17.119
into this audition and I remember his mom calls me
933
00:52:17.159 --> 00:52:20.269
from the audition line. And I'm in school, but I
934
00:52:20.309 --> 00:52:22.530
took it because I knew he was having this big audition.
935
00:52:23.110 --> 00:52:25.110
It was for Sound of Music. It was his first
936
00:52:25.530 --> 00:52:28.550
big thing after high school graduation. And she goes, oh,
937
00:52:28.590 --> 00:52:32.510
my word. Everybody has portfolios and everybody has agents. And
938
00:52:32.550 --> 00:52:34.670
here we stand with our little cassette tape.
939
00:52:36.090 --> 00:52:36.710
Yes.
940
00:52:37.570 --> 00:52:40.550
Yes. Practicing to your accompaniment. Yes.
941
00:52:41.429 --> 00:52:43.230
And Jonathan got the part.
942
00:52:43.820 --> 00:52:44.050
Yeah.
943
00:52:45.320 --> 00:52:46.239
And that was the beginning.
944
00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:48.460
I didn't go to college.
945
00:52:48.519 --> 00:52:51.800
I went on the road with The Sound of Music.
946
00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:53.760
It was a huge life-changing moment.
947
00:52:55.559 --> 00:53:00.260
I want to finish with a little story that is
948
00:53:00.949 --> 00:53:06.789
kind of an incredible story. wrapping for this, which is, Jonathan,
949
00:53:06.929 --> 00:53:10.469
I'm confirming, we have never met before. Linda, we have
950
00:53:10.530 --> 00:53:14.980
never met before. But in the Arts Educators Save the
951
00:53:15.039 --> 00:53:18.739
World cinematic universe, I have to share with you that
952
00:53:18.780 --> 00:53:21.739
the very first episode that we did of this podcast
953
00:53:21.780 --> 00:53:26.000
and essentially the foundation for it was Alec and I
954
00:53:26.360 --> 00:53:29.929
went to the same elementary school and We had this elementary.
955
00:53:29.489 --> 00:53:32.510
School music teacher who we also.
956
00:53:32.630 --> 00:53:36.429
Alec and I, are childhood friends of one Robert Lopez,
957
00:53:37.710 --> 00:53:41.590
who is our same year, writer of Frozen for our
958
00:53:41.670 --> 00:53:45.750
audience who is not making the automatic connection. So Bobby
959
00:53:45.829 --> 00:53:49.219
and Alec and I had the same elementary school music
960
00:53:49.320 --> 00:53:52.300
teacher who— changed.
961
00:53:52.070 --> 00:53:53.010
All of our lives.
962
00:53:53.389 --> 00:53:57.250
Bobby wrote original music when we were in our sixth
963
00:53:57.289 --> 00:54:01.469
grade graduation. We sang as a chorus the song that
964
00:54:01.530 --> 00:54:05.780
Bobby wrote for us. And then to put the final
965
00:54:05.840 --> 00:54:11.139
bow on, those very first episodes also feature another Barbara
966
00:54:11.260 --> 00:54:16.309
Ames alum, Lin-Manuel Miranda, who is younger than Alec and
967
00:54:16.329 --> 00:54:19.889
Bobby and I, but also went to our elementary school
968
00:54:20.030 --> 00:54:26.349
and also had this elementary school music teacher who, I mean,
969
00:54:26.389 --> 00:54:29.869
we could do like a find-replace in that interview, Linda,
970
00:54:29.929 --> 00:54:32.639
for some of the things you said about the ways
971
00:54:33.090 --> 00:54:36.820
that you thought about your work in the way that
972
00:54:36.900 --> 00:54:42.719
Barbara thinks about hers. And I say we've never met
973
00:54:42.820 --> 00:54:46.840
because I think sometimes to listeners, these feel like just
974
00:54:46.940 --> 00:54:50.929
so stories. Like, oh, of course, you're talking, you know.
975
00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:54.969
But you all are from Lancaster, Pennsylvania. We grew up
976
00:54:55.010 --> 00:55:00.750
in New York City. And these ways of understanding why
977
00:55:00.889 --> 00:55:05.989
art making matters are so transformational for all of us
978
00:55:06.090 --> 00:55:09.820
as professionals, but also, Linda, to have someone like you,
979
00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:14.699
someone like Barbara, shape all of what is possible and,
980
00:55:14.929 --> 00:55:17.590
you know, not to be too cheesy, you know, leads to,
981
00:55:17.610 --> 00:55:23.110
you know, now Jonathan is a Tony Award winning actor
982
00:55:23.150 --> 00:55:27.610
and you can draw the lines directly. So I wanted
983
00:55:27.630 --> 00:55:31.099
to share that with you all as I've been kind
984
00:55:31.119 --> 00:55:36.780
of thinking about the magic of these relationships and these
985
00:55:36.840 --> 00:55:40.929
conversations and the gifts that we were all given to
986
00:55:40.989 --> 00:55:44.289
be Linda in, in your orbit and in Barbara Ames
987
00:55:44.369 --> 00:55:46.650
orbit and, and how that shapes our lives.
988
00:55:46.670 --> 00:55:49.090
I would love to sit down and have a conversation
989
00:55:49.150 --> 00:55:53.090
with her. The arts have a place. And unfortunately, as
990
00:55:53.130 --> 00:55:56.429
you're seeing in now, I can't speak for private education
991
00:55:56.449 --> 00:56:02.650
because I'm public education, but we're easy to cut. We're
992
00:56:02.670 --> 00:56:05.349
an easy target. We're not on the PSSA testing. We're
993
00:56:05.389 --> 00:56:09.250
not on the big testing. And, I have spent a
994
00:56:09.309 --> 00:56:14.550
lot of my career fighting for our programs. And so
995
00:56:14.719 --> 00:56:17.460
I would say, keep up the fight. I still do.
996
00:56:17.519 --> 00:56:20.579
Anytime I get a chance to speak to an administrator
997
00:56:20.699 --> 00:56:24.199
or a school board member, I'm there. I mean, arts
998
00:56:24.360 --> 00:56:27.800
are so important for education. Please don't look at us
999
00:56:27.889 --> 00:56:30.730
as something that you can cut. It's something you should
1000
00:56:30.849 --> 00:56:34.610
keep because we make memories.
1001
00:56:36.110 --> 00:56:36.429
We do.
1002
00:56:36.989 --> 00:56:40.929
You don't remember that math test in seventh grade, you know? Well,
1003
00:56:40.949 --> 00:56:42.489
maybe you do if you did really bad or you
1004
00:56:42.510 --> 00:56:47.190
did really well. But you remember what you did in
1005
00:56:47.230 --> 00:56:51.050
other classes and you remember how you felt as a human.
1006
00:56:51.590 --> 00:56:56.559
And arts involve human. There's no other way to say it.
1007
00:56:57.099 --> 00:57:00.219
It's the most beautiful part about being human because it's
1008
00:57:00.360 --> 00:57:01.179
connected to love.
1009
00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:03.539
It really is.
1010
00:57:03.559 --> 00:57:07.539
Yeah. And there's really nothing without, I mean, we're talking
1011
00:57:07.619 --> 00:57:12.280
about Bobby and Lynn and I, like that we, you know,
1012
00:57:12.300 --> 00:57:15.690
went on to have these careers as artists, but it
1013
00:57:15.750 --> 00:57:19.610
really is also just as essential for the people that
1014
00:57:19.670 --> 00:57:21.369
haven't gone on to have careers as artists.
1015
00:57:21.389 --> 00:57:22.050
Oh, exactly.
1016
00:57:22.710 --> 00:57:30.619
The essential conversation that happens between sort of practical math, reading, learning,
1017
00:57:31.239 --> 00:57:34.320
and the arts, that you can't have one without the other.
1018
00:57:34.500 --> 00:57:38.320
Exactly. It goes together. It's a team effort. And, you know,
1019
00:57:38.619 --> 00:57:41.070
I was just reminded, my car went into the shop
1020
00:57:41.510 --> 00:57:44.010
a few years ago, my other car, and the mechanic
1021
00:57:44.050 --> 00:57:47.150
was a former Smoketown student. And that's where I taught
1022
00:57:47.210 --> 00:57:49.670
Smoketown Elementary. And he was like, oh my gosh, I'm
1023
00:57:49.730 --> 00:57:51.769
so glad to see you. And I'm like, I'm so
1024
00:57:51.809 --> 00:57:55.880
glad you're working on my car. You know, like, it's exciting.
1025
00:57:56.179 --> 00:58:00.260
I mean, it Yeah. I mean, I'm just thrilled that
1026
00:58:00.860 --> 00:58:03.260
they learned about life and they're trying their best and
1027
00:58:03.300 --> 00:58:06.099
that's what it is. That's what the arts do. They
1028
00:58:06.119 --> 00:58:07.800
push you. And I love it.
1029
00:58:09.159 --> 00:58:13.900
I will just wrap up by thanking you both for
1030
00:58:13.940 --> 00:58:19.949
your generous time today. Both of you have a lot
1031
00:58:19.969 --> 00:58:22.250
of other things that you could be doing other than
1032
00:58:22.309 --> 00:58:24.070
having this conversation with us.
1033
00:58:24.429 --> 00:58:25.949
And it really.
1034
00:58:27.679 --> 00:58:29.889
Linda, what your words about.
1035
00:58:29.750 --> 00:58:33.250
Advocating for the importance of the arts in schools is
1036
00:58:33.309 --> 00:58:39.409
exactly why we do this. And Jonathan, frankly, your presence
1037
00:58:41.070 --> 00:58:44.019
is what brings people to hear the words that Linda
1038
00:58:44.059 --> 00:58:48.519
has to say. So, you know, you both play an
1039
00:58:49.300 --> 00:58:55.949
equally crucial role in uplifting the importance of art making
1040
00:58:56.119 --> 00:58:59.550
in our teaching and learning lives, which is exactly why
1041
00:58:59.889 --> 00:59:01.889
we make this in the first place.
1042
00:59:01.989 --> 00:59:05.590
So thank you both for spending time with us today.
1043
00:59:05.929 --> 00:59:09.329
Thank you for having me because it's so important.
1044
00:59:17.449 --> 00:59:17.769
Wow.
1045
00:59:18.110 --> 00:59:22.230
That was an amazing journey.
1046
00:59:23.670 --> 00:59:23.989
And I.
1047
00:59:26.110 --> 00:59:29.230
Am so grateful. You know, when you talk to a person.
1048
00:59:28.880 --> 00:59:33.550
Who you realize is like so incredibly successful in their
1049
00:59:33.630 --> 00:59:38.449
art form. And yet they remain so grounded and connected
1050
00:59:38.940 --> 00:59:43.719
to not only the people who got them there, but
1051
00:59:43.940 --> 00:59:48.820
to the idea that it's those early learning experiences that
1052
00:59:48.940 --> 00:59:52.619
really still continue to shape everything they do. It's just
1053
00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:57.780
such an inspiring conversation. And I heard kind of three
1054
00:59:57.980 --> 01:00:03.380
big ideas from both Linda and Jonathan that we talk
1055
01:00:03.389 --> 01:00:07.119
a lot about in the design of schooling experiences that
1056
01:00:07.519 --> 01:00:09.280
we don't need to belabor, but I want to just
1057
01:00:09.380 --> 01:00:13.800
re-highlight as we're ending our time together. One was this
1058
01:00:13.880 --> 01:00:18.420
idea of a culture of high expectations, which Linda talked
1059
01:00:18.480 --> 01:00:21.780
a lot about that, you know, making things engaging and
1060
01:00:21.880 --> 01:00:25.579
fun for kids is not about making them easy. It's
1061
01:00:25.659 --> 01:00:30.449
about setting the a cultural understanding that what we're doing
1062
01:00:30.530 --> 01:00:34.449
is difficult, but we're going to do it together. Second
1063
01:00:34.989 --> 01:00:38.349
was a lot of conversation about the importance of both
1064
01:00:38.750 --> 01:00:42.070
the process and the product of art making. And I
1065
01:00:42.210 --> 01:00:49.239
loved Jonathan's reflection about his experiences in the professional world with, look,
1066
01:00:49.260 --> 01:00:52.579
there's so many people who hate rehearsals and love performance.
1067
01:00:53.260 --> 01:00:56.630
And then there's also people who love rehearsals and hate performance.
1068
01:00:57.110 --> 01:01:01.329
And for him, the relationship between those two is a
1069
01:01:01.409 --> 01:01:06.369
direct result of his education as an artist. And I
1070
01:01:06.469 --> 01:01:09.030
think he even says is part of what makes him
1071
01:01:09.090 --> 01:01:13.030
so successful that he can move between process and product
1072
01:01:13.590 --> 01:01:16.909
and appreciate what both of those aspects of art making
1073
01:01:16.969 --> 01:01:19.489
have to offer him as a human being. And then
1074
01:01:19.750 --> 01:01:24.360
the last one was this idea of Meeting students where
1075
01:01:24.400 --> 01:01:27.260
they are, you know, I would call that kind of
1076
01:01:27.519 --> 01:01:31.880
asset based learning. You might call it like competency based
1077
01:01:31.960 --> 01:01:38.440
learning or simply working with the people who are in
1078
01:01:38.480 --> 01:01:40.780
the room with you rather than saying this is what
1079
01:01:40.800 --> 01:01:44.019
we're going to accomplish regardless of who's here. And we
1080
01:01:44.039 --> 01:01:47.800
heard that in a lot of different ways, but my favorite,
1081
01:01:47.900 --> 01:01:50.909
because it resonates with the way I do whoopin' soccer,
1082
01:01:50.929 --> 01:01:54.030
but also Alec, it resonated with you, was this idea
1083
01:01:54.070 --> 01:01:56.309
that there are lots of jobs and they're all important.
1084
01:01:56.969 --> 01:01:57.769
And part of the.
1085
01:01:57.730 --> 01:02:03.190
Experience of the classroom is matching the kid to the
1086
01:02:03.250 --> 01:02:07.780
job that is best suited to them to have a
1087
01:02:07.880 --> 01:02:10.219
positive learning experience in the classroom.
1088
01:02:11.039 --> 01:02:14.130
And so in the spirit of that, I have a
1089
01:02:14.590 --> 01:02:15.690
question for you.
1090
01:02:15.710 --> 01:02:17.590
You ready?
1091
01:02:17.690 --> 01:02:20.929
Okay. Yes, I forgot we do this. Yes, let's do this.
1092
01:02:20.949 --> 01:02:21.329
Let's do this.
1093
01:02:21.349 --> 01:02:23.889
Yes, let's do it. It's been a long time. You know,
1094
01:02:23.909 --> 01:02:29.050
brush the dust off. Oil the gears. Whatever metaphor you want.
1095
01:02:30.110 --> 01:02:31.050
Improv metaphor.
1096
01:02:31.630 --> 01:02:39.650
What are three jobs in the arts that you wish
1097
01:02:39.909 --> 01:02:43.760
you had that helped Get the job done.
1098
01:02:46.760 --> 01:02:50.159
I wish I were the person who coordinates the food
1099
01:02:50.199 --> 01:02:53.449
trucks because everyone loves the food trucks.
1100
01:02:53.690 --> 01:02:56.670
And so you're the hero when you bring the food trucks.
1101
01:02:57.469 --> 01:02:57.630
One.
1102
01:02:59.050 --> 01:03:05.300
I wish I could do costume design, but I'm colorblind
1103
01:03:05.340 --> 01:03:09.500
and have no taste or style. So I'm not going
1104
01:03:09.519 --> 01:03:12.989
to do that. And number three, I want to... Oh,
1105
01:03:17.119 --> 01:03:19.199
I'd like to be the.
1106
01:03:19.239 --> 01:03:24.420
Lead in a big musical. I can't sing.
1107
01:03:25.199 --> 01:03:28.559
My acting's not great. I don't have the patience for it.
1108
01:03:29.699 --> 01:03:32.760
And no one will hire me for that. So I'm
1109
01:03:32.840 --> 01:03:33.360
on my way.
1110
01:03:34.320 --> 01:03:35.380
Three things.
1111
01:03:36.489 --> 01:03:39.699
Erica, I have a question for you, which is, it's
1112
01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:44.360
similar in mathematics, but different in tone. What are three
1113
01:03:44.440 --> 01:03:48.340
ways that listeners can connect with the show? Yeah.
1114
01:03:49.079 --> 01:03:52.750
Well, you can go to your favorite podcast platform and
1115
01:03:52.949 --> 01:03:54.210
follow our show.
1116
01:03:54.889 --> 01:03:55.010
One.
1117
01:03:56.050 --> 01:03:57.230
Rate our show.
1118
01:03:58.369 --> 01:03:58.610
Two.
1119
01:03:59.590 --> 01:04:02.289
And leave a review for our show.
1120
01:04:02.650 --> 01:04:03.309
That's three things.
1121
01:04:03.349 --> 01:04:05.239
I want to be clear. Don't rate it with a two.
1122
01:04:05.750 --> 01:04:09.289
By the way, that's not the second thing. Rate it
1123
01:04:09.309 --> 01:04:09.829
with the highest.
1124
01:04:09.849 --> 01:04:12.010
We don't want to tell you how to rate. You
1125
01:04:12.050 --> 01:04:14.179
should rate the show how you want.
1126
01:04:14.260 --> 01:04:17.059
Especially if you want to give it five stars.
1127
01:04:17.139 --> 01:04:20.239
We want you to engage in the way that is
1128
01:04:20.340 --> 01:04:21.059
meaningful to you.
1129
01:04:21.099 --> 01:04:23.079
And we want to meet you where you are and
1130
01:04:23.960 --> 01:04:27.809
have an asset-based rating system here, which.
1131
01:04:28.190 --> 01:04:29.090
Results in five stars.
1132
01:04:29.550 --> 01:04:30.809
Onward together.
1133
01:04:32.860 --> 01:04:36.880
Arts Educators Save the World is hosted by Erica Rosenfeld
1134
01:04:36.920 --> 01:04:40.780
Halverson and produced and co-hosted by me, Alec Lev. Our
1135
01:04:40.820 --> 01:04:44.530
executive producer is Doug Matica, and our audio producer is
1136
01:04:44.590 --> 01:04:48.369
Justin Asher. We are also executive produced by the fantastic
1137
01:04:48.409 --> 01:04:52.469
group at Story Pirate Studios, Lee Overtree, Benjamin Salka, and
1138
01:04:52.630 --> 01:04:56.070
Amy Fiore. Original music is by Dan Lipton, and our
1139
01:04:56.179 --> 01:04:59.679
artwork is by Lyra Evans. Check out our website, designed
1140
01:04:59.699 --> 01:05:05.239
by Cole Locasio, at www.artseducatorspodcast.com.
1141
01:05:05.440 --> 01:05:08.659
You can follow us on Twitter, at Arts Educators. Yes,
1142
01:05:08.780 --> 01:05:10.159
somehow that wasn't taken yet.
1143
01:05:10.300 --> 01:05:14.059
And on Instagram, at Arts Educators Podcast. Write to us
1144
01:05:14.099 --> 01:05:19.230
with your questions and comments at contact at artseducatorspodcast.com. And
1145
01:05:19.269 --> 01:05:22.949
wherever you're listening, please remember to subscribe, rate, and review.
1146
01:05:23.170 --> 01:05:25.110
It really helps the show. We are proud to be
1147
01:05:25.150 --> 01:05:29.500
sponsored in part by the Wallace Foundation, the University of Wisconsin-Madison,
1148
01:05:29.739 --> 01:05:33.300
and the Gibb Faculty Fellowship. Arts Educators Save the World
1149
01:05:33.320 --> 01:05:36.929
was created by Erica Rosenfeld-Halverson and Alec Levitt.