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Welcome to Startup Wins.
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Twice a month we share real stories and smart tips.
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Subscribe and join the journey.
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Welcome back to another episode of Startup Wins.
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Um, we are lucky to have one of my friends here, Beth Massa, on the show.
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Hi, Brandon.
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Thank you.
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Thrilled to be here.
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Appreciate you being here.
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So before we jump into the show, I thought maybe we would kind of learn a little bit about what Beth is doing.
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But we used to be uh alumni of this little company called Amazon that now uh supposedly is ubiquitous throughout the world for all these products you can order like within hours, it seems like in some places.
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I'm actually curious how it is in Europe because that's where Beth is here.
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So, Beth, actually, actually, where where where are we uh speaking to you from?
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I'm in Amsterdam in the Netherlands.
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Amsterdam.
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Amsterdam.
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I mean, you you've been you were in the Seattle area quite a bit, right?
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Yeah, I was.
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I moved to Seattle in 1996 because the city was just so beautiful.
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I couldn't believe that people actually lived there.
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So I was like, I could live here too.
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So I just moved and then I um got this temp job at this little startup called Amazon.
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The stars sort of aligned, and then I had that feeling again about 10 years later when I visited Amsterdam for the first time.
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So I trusted that feeling.
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And my think that my relationship with Seattle was changing, um, maybe not so much in a good way.
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And at Amsterdam, it was just this life that I always dreamed of living was just here waiting for me to find it.
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So we moved and never looked back.
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Yeah, no, that's so cool.
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Um, I mean, uh honestly, let we're gonna dive into that.
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But before we do, if if you don't mind, we're gonna maybe let the listeners um hear a little bit about what you're doing.
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What so what are you doing?
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What is this company that you're basically building?
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And uh yeah, let's start there.
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Well, we have a startup here called Ozarka.
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Ozarka aims to bring an end to single-use food packaging worldwide, and that includes everything from every sort of material that is like a linear waste stream.
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While we would love to take on the bottled water industry first, when you're a tiny little startup, you're not gonna get very far trying to defeat that Goliath.
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So the lane that we picked was ready to consume and made-to-order food.
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So we were working with caterers and restaurants and food trucks and festivals to replace disposables with reusable packaging.
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And there's a whole system to keep it all in circulation.
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And now we're moving on to the phase where we're actually thinking about not just the packaging, but the food that goes in it.
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So we are building a new takeaway and delivery model that's so different than the current experience.
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We like to say it's the opposite of today's takeaway and delivery.
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Um, from a sustainability standpoint, customer service standpoint, you know, the amount, the margins that we're uh charging restaurants is half what they're used to right now.
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And um, our margins are, in spite of the slashing commissions, 600% higher than the industry standard.
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It's very hard to correct course when you're a large multinational company like the big guys.
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And so we were like, we're in this great opportunity to build it right from the ground up, and that's what we're doing right now.
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Oh well.
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That company's called Zeti, so it's a separate brand.
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Okay, okay, interesting.
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So, but this has been a I imagine a very interesting entrepreneurial path.
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I mean, you said you got some contract work at Amazon, probably.
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What did you do at Amazon again?
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Like most people, I did a couple different things.
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So um I actually went after graduating from college, intended to be a music journalist and also living in Seattle.
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So until you know, Rolling Stone called me up and offered me a full-time job, because you know that just happens.
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Um, I got a temp job at this little startup called Amazon in the current customer service department.
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So that's where I started for like the first couple of months.
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Then I was one of the first three editors indeed hired at the in the music store, and then went on to do some product management.
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We I did the target.com relationship, if you remember that back in the day.
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Oh, yeah.
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Then went back to sort of merchandising management for music and software and video games.
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And that was the last role I had before I moved halfway around the world.
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And did you do that uh via Amazon's dollars or did you do that on your own, just out of curiosity?
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Yeah, no, I did it on my own.
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You know, moving to Amsterdam again was it wasn't a professional decision, it was a personal and emotional one.
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And so I needed to find a job.
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And it took about two years of networking while I was still at Amazon to get the um to get an offer.
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And just by sheer coincidence, the offer I got was from Microsoft, even though I never worked at Microsoft in Seattle.
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And so they just had a very like compensation in Europe, especially in the Netherlands, is incredibly generous compared to what Americans are used to.
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So, you know, I think most Americans think of Europe, they think of incredibly high taxes.
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And while that's true, there's another side to living here which is really, really wonderful.
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So it was a very soft landing for me to move and then also for to depart from Microsoft, which is actually a key part of my startup story as well.
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Yeah, could you tell us a little about that?
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Yeah, sure.
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So I don't mean this to be self-deprecating, but what happened was I was hired to manage content for a site that spoke to small businesses.
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The management team said, Yeah, um, hey, fancy Amazon girl, you know that thing that Amazon does where they're like, people who bought this also bought that.
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Can you build us a recommendation engine for content as well?
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And I was like, Yeah, but I need a couple of years and like a seven, several million dollar budget in a team.
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And they're like, right, yeah, you have six months and 75,000 euros.
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What can you build us?
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And then I was like, oh no, like these people have no idea what it takes to build a world-class website.
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And so for the next 10 years, Brandon, I just kind of floated from team to team to project to project, trying to find my place.
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I like to joke that I was sort of the the like diversity house pet.
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I think they just sort of liked having me around.
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And my last role there was what I think we would call an intrapreneurship.
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So this was right when Azure and cloud computing was starting to come onto the scene.
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And I realized that we had an untapped market, and that untapped market was the academic uh research community that have huge compute needs, everything is on premise.
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So I said to my bosses, like, this is huge, like, let me take a shot at this.
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And amazingly, they did, but I knew that the role was had a timestamp on it because um a subsidiary has a very short tolerance for business development.
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And so I'd said to them, this is gonna take five years.
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I am not gonna change my tune.
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When you guys start saying, like revenue, revenue, revenue, it's gonna take a while.
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And indeed, I knew after two years they were gonna start getting itchy, and I all I could do was stay consistent with my story, and knowing that this was probably gonna be my last role at Microsoft, like great company, no hard feelings, but again, just organically coming to an end.
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Then of all the researchers I was talking to, of course, being the Netherlands, um, there's a lot of water management research, and there was this group that was studying microplastics in the ocean, and this was years before this was headline news.
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And I was like, what do you mean there's microplastics in the ocean?
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We're all recycling, there's a problem that I guess actually, recycling's a lie.
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Everything's going being dumped into Southeast Asia and the global south, and it's a catastrophe.
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And for a variety of um reasons, this particular environmental problem like really captured my attention.
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And I'm gonna try and truncate the story, but uh to the point where I thought I know so much about this now, it feels like a moral responsibility to participate in a solution.
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So I sold my house in Seattle to bootstrap the company, and Ozarka was born.
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Yeah, but the soft landing part.
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So when you have what's called an off-blueprint role, which means it's a specialized role that's not a part of the org chart, those roles, when it's re-org time, are very vulnerable to being removed.
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And I knew that there was a very high chance that that was going to happen to me.
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So I strategically decided, well, I'm not gonna start the startup until I'm made redundant.
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Because in the Netherlands, when that happens to you, you um have six months to find another role within the company on full salary.
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So that's your only job is to find a new role.
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If you find a new role, everything's just resets.
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If you find, if say a role outside the company after a month, you still get the six months of full pay and your severance, which is usually about a year's salary.
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Oh, wow.
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So it was like a very soft landing for me to start this company.
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Yeah.
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So thank you, Netherlands, for your generous socialized compensation packages because it made starting Ozarka a lot easier.
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I think I'm gonna be packing my bags here pretty soon to I made the move to Austin, uh, assuming that it was a better environment, but uh now what you've just told me just outdoes anything in the United States.
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So I mean, I have yeah, I mean, I had another friend who's talking about Malta, and we were doing a little bit of research around that.
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Kind of fascinating.
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Malta's a great place to stock your money if you want to retire in Europe.
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Like, I don't think they tax your pension at all if your pension's coming from the US.
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There's a couple of countries in Europe that have these kind of lucrative tax schemes for expats.
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I see.
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Interesting.
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So, how long has this journey been so far?
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Um, when did you start as Arca?
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And and yeah, tell us a little bit about the the years of trials and tribulations and and hopefully lots of successes.
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It's been really hard, actually, Brandon, because we started in 2018.
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Again, I had a little bit of capital of my own, but was a bit of a cushion.
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So we spent that first year just kind of staring at the wall, going, okay, what's the business?
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What's the business model?
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Where do we start?
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It was a struggle.
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And then after a while, you start realizing that you're not asking the same questions or fighting over the same questions over and over again, that you're you're asking new questions.
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And since we've once we finally got that figured out, we got um some angel investors to kick in some pre-seed.
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We bought our first batch of reusables inventory and started to procure some clients, and then things were going really, really well.
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And then you know it's coming.
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COVID shut everything down for two years, and that was really hard because that was two years of like no revenue and everything's going chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk.
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And then what happened after that is everyone is spooked because in the hospitality industry, one week was completely different from the next.
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Are we open?
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Are we not?
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You know, is this gonna, even though COVID sort of officially ended, no one was feeling secure that it wasn't gonna continue to be the start and stop.
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And so that took like even another year to sort of get that rolling.
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And then our largest kind of bread and butter catering client moved into a larger facility, which was great for us because they were growing, we're growing.
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And then uh the entire facility that they just moved into burned to the ground and they stopped for a year, which means like we stopped for a year.
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Oh my god.
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At that point, we were like, you know, that on top of the fact that my company is founded by a female, which is me, watching our, you know, two white guy male competitors get, you know, tens of millions of euros in investment when we're struggling to put 300,000 together.
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It was just getting, it's just been really, really hard.
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And so the stage that we're at still is, you know, Ozark is still a small business, and it will continue to remain that way until we get the financing that we deserve.
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And yeah, it's been a battle, but the reward is the community, the other female founders that are in this fight with me, the alliances there, the commitment we have to each other there, the support we give each other when you know you feel like crying for the fifth time that week is not something that I would trade.
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And I almost wonder, looking back on all of this, while my company will be a success, if maybe the main point of it wasn't the company in and of itself, but to be a voice and a champion for female founders, it may be both, but I but that role has become just as important to me as running a business.
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I I I love that.
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Um, as as I mentioned in the conversation before we started recording today, I had two female friends who were, you know, they've done many different things, but they saw the discrepancy, at least in the United States, but probably it sounds like it's prevalent throughout the world, is that women get what, 2%, maybe at most 5% of the 100% high of all the venture capital that exists.
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Do you do you know what the latest numbers are?
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Um, how how how are those numbers in Europe?
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Yeah, it's it's still 2%.
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And so the counterpoint people will throw up is that, yeah, but only you know, 13% of companies are founded by women.
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And then the counterpoint to that is, but yeah, you know, female-run businesses have like a 50% higher increase in in revenue and profit margins than male-founded ones.
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But my experience has been as follows if we're pitching to a you know, some investors, of course, they'll ask about traction.
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And for me, traction means ARR.
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For my male counterparts, traction can mean any number of things, including like signups to a newsletter.
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And so what happens is that what you know, you'll hear me repeat the saying that's like the two white guys, two white guys, two white guys that are always showing up with my feed celebrating their new round, will get this money, they'll blow through it in record time on the brink of bankruptcy.
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And then what happens is that they get even more money than the first round because they learned.
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But what they learned are things that I've known for 20 years plus my entire career.
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That's what's so frustrating.
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Or they start out with a model that we know is not gonna work, they get all their money and then they pivot to something completely unrecognizable.
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And so, so then the criticism for female founders rolls around that, well, one of the reasons that people don't want to invest in us is because female founders tend to be too risk-averse.
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And I have to explain to them, well, we have to be, because our runway is all we've got.
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And if we screw up, that's the end of the line.
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Like, we don't want to be risk averse, but we you've given us no choice.
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So the message I'm trying to get out there to the VC world is like, I'm not too early.
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It's I'm not too early talking to you with my, you know, small um ARR.
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You're too late.
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Like, you have to start taking this jump with female founders if you know the status quo really wants to make a difference.
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I don't think that they do.
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That's not what I've experienced over all these years.
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So, yeah, that's why I decided to start my own fund, but that's a totally different um project.
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No, I I I definitely I don't know if I want to say empathize, because obviously I can't empathize, but definitely sympathize, but then that sounds bad.
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That doesn't sound bad.
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No, it's okay.
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It's not it's not an impossible story to understand.
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So no, I appreciate I appreciate that.
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Yeah, we can do the typical raise, we can do everything that most venture capital firms do.
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But my co-founder, a woman um who I've known for 35 years, class college classmate um, and I are just trying to change the whole ethos of the system.
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And one of the biggest initiatives is to make sure that women get the right amount of financing to make it to the next level.
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In our in our initial recruitment, we had about 123 applicants for three positions, and guess what?
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Like 99, I'd say 97% were men, and we had three or four amazing women, by the way.
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Amazing women.
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Um, unfortunately, unfortunately, the first woman had family issues.
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We offered her a position, but she had family issues, so she tended to the family.
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So what's that mean?
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Women care, right?
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Women care about the right priorities, and our priority is the same as hers, family first.
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We are still committed to probably hire the sixth and seventh person as being female, so that at least we get a certain percentage of women so that we can make these decisions.
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But um, I sympathize, but also I I hope that we can work with you um and and supporting you.
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Um, as as you know, we we we introduced you to a fantastic seven time founder.
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And so we hope that that relationship will blossom into something.
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So I will get off my soapbox and just say, damn it, let's fix this problem together.
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Yeah, and it's so thank you for that.
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And it it the insight that you've unearthed there is that it it's basic human nature that we sort of gravitate toward our own.
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And this was a revelation I had when I was still at Microsoft.
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Um, I'd always been, you know, working predominantly in a male-dominated industry.
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And I was I was very comfortable with that.
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I've worked with wonderful men.
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I've also had bosses that were bullies, both men and women.
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But I've been really lucky that that I've had so many wonderful relationships with men in my life.
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I'm not a man a man-basher, but it is very difficult to try and understand a bias when you haven't personally experienced it.
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And and that's why so the the insight that I had to finish the story at Microsoft, I am I'm on a university somewhere.
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In my professional experience, most of the women I worked with were in traditional women um departments like PR or HR marketing.
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I walked into this classroom one day and it was a software engineering classroom, and it was all guys.
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And this isn't gonna sound so nice, but they were just like your typical, like really geeky, sweet boys, but just so like nerdy, geeky software engineers.
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And I was like, you know what?
00:18:53.920 --> 00:19:00.799
If I if I was like a cool, fun, hip, smart girl, these are not my people.
00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:01.839
This is not my tribe.
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:06.400
These are not the people that I would want to spend the next four years of my life bonding with.
00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:20.400
And it was at that moment that I realized, oh no, like this is an entire like lucrative industry, assuming AI doesn't wipe it out, that yet another generation of women are totally missing out on.
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:30.880
So that's when I had that epiphany, like we need to build our own culture in our own way, on our own time and in our own terms, just like the geeky guys did in like the 70s.
00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:32.640
You know, that was great for them.
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:36.799
It was great for their culture and made them incredibly wealthy, the wealthiest guys on earth.
00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:49.200
But to ask them to all of a sudden pivot to something that's so like epigenetically deep in them to overcome a bias, it might be in the time we need it to happen too much to ask.
00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:54.000
So, so again, that's why I'm like, ladies, come on, we need to do this for ourselves, just like those guys did.
00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:57.920
And but we need allies like you to help accelerate that process.
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:02.559
So I don't come at this with any sort of like vitriol toward men.
00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:06.000
Um, maybe, you know, not as much as maybe one might assume.
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:06.559
Yeah.
00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:13.200
So so you it sounds like you have an organization or you're lobbying for these efforts through a vehicle.
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:13.920
Is that correct?
00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:27.359
Yeah, so it's a little bit of fun, but one day I was dropping off some clothes and items at a um, they call it a kringlopwinkel here in the Netherlands, like a charity shop or, you know, like goodwill, goodwill type place.
00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:34.720
And off the corner of my eye was this clothes rack, and on the clothing rack, I saw this t-shirt and it said, I should, I should have worn it for an interview.
00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:36.400
It said, need money, not friends.
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:38.559
And I just thought that was so funny.
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:42.240
And I kept looking at it, and I got, I gotta buy that t-shirt.
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:50.720
And so um, I wore it, and then I posted this comment on LinkedIn after I gotten um yet another rejection from a VC.
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:55.119
And I said, I'm done, I'm going dark, you know, for all the reasons that I've just discussed.
00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:56.960
We need to do this for ourselves.
00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:01.759
And so I'm gonna start my own fund called Need Money Not Friends.
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.079
And it's also a social movement.
00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:14.640
So I sell the t-shirts, and then any any woman who wants to express how frustrated they are with the funding landscape can like wear the shirt and talk about their story on social media.
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:18.720
That money will go into the proceeds from those t-shirts will go into a pool.
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:25.359
And then um, I'm also inviting people who want um an equity stake to maybe put in a larger ticket.
00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:29.839
My goal is to raise 10 million euros, which is a really small fund, but it's a start.
00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:35.440
And and yeah, the idea behind need money, not friends, isn't that we don't need friends, it's that we have enough friends.
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:39.440
I don't, you're an accelerator, you want to be my friend, you want me to pay for your friendship.
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:42.480
Don't need your acceleration, don't need your advice, don't need your mentorship.
00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:43.680
I need money.
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:48.640
So that's the whole um that's the ethos behind the slogan.
00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.400
I can't wait to to to jump on your train there.
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:58.319
Um, I you you you definitely got a new follower or you got a new uh member of this group or whatever it is.
00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:01.680
And um, I'm happy to help you with the marketing part of it.
00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:06.240
I mean, not that, you know, I'm sitting here um gonna Yeah, I always say yes to help.
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:09.359
Anyone who says we don't need your help, I think that's the wrong response.
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:11.759
I say yes to help always.
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:16.160
So so this is this is a really nice story, actually.
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:27.839
So in the early days, I did have an a couple of two advisors, they were both men, and they gave me amazing advice that I share to other people who are just starting their startup um the very, very beginning.
00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:31.680
The first bit of advice is start small so you can start fast.
00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:34.000
That doesn't mean you have to reduce your ambition.
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:39.279
You know, when I had mentioned to you, like we stared at the wall for a year, this guy kind of got us out of that.
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:43.519
We were in um just kind of what's the term, analysis paralysis.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:48.799
And he said, If I told you you had to start Ozark in six weeks, what would you do?
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.039
And that really got us going.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:55.920
You know, it's just like, okay, let's just have this tiny little silly business and just start.
00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:57.759
So that's that's really critical.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:05.119
And then the other great advice I got was the advisor said, Beth, you have no idea how big your network actually is.
00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:21.359
He said, Write down the name of every single person you can think of your whole life, if starting with a kindergarten teacher to a manager at work, every single person you can think of that gave you um a compliment or encouragement or thought seemed to think you were interesting.
00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:23.440
And he said, ask them for money.
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:28.799
And so I did that and I took a giant breath because that's scary.
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:35.920
As a result of that, I raised 240,000 euros in 23 hours.
00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:36.559
Wow.
00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:56.000
I wish it was, yeah, I wish it was always that way, but it included a lot of senior managers at at Amazon that had just noticed my work here or there, or we had a 30-second call conversation in an elevator where they gave me some praise, like any little moment, I wrote those guys down, and some of them ended up being my investors.
00:23:56.319 --> 00:23:56.960
Yeah.
00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:10.960
And and let me ask, because some people who are not experienced with the whole angel um raising or angel um um investments phase of building a startup, how did you approach that?
00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:13.279
Did you just email these people cold?
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:15.519
Did you do it individually?
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:16.799
What was your wins?
00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:20.640
What were the wins that basically helped you get that amount of money?
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:23.200
I emailed them cold individually.
00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:35.920
So I sent them all like the template body of the email, sandwiched it with you know a personal personalized note to them, you know, acknowledging my gratitude to our toward our relationship.
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:37.839
All about building relationships.
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:45.680
I'm sure that that's not new to anyone, but you're the one that has to build those relationships and you're the one that has to be brave enough.
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:49.920
And also keep in mind it feels good to help someone.
00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:55.359
A smart angel investor will never invest money that hurts if they lose it.
00:24:55.519 --> 00:25:02.640
So that's also something I have to kind of keep in the back of my mind because my angels have waited so long for Ozarka to get going.
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:12.799
But it's not, well, I think once you remember that if people don't believe in it and they can't afford it, they're not going to be offended that you're trying to do something amazing and they're going to be complicated that are complimented, I think.
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:16.319
At least I would be that you thought of them to kick in.
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:23.440
So you just, yeah, you just have to have a little bit of faith in humanity when you're when you're making those those first initial contacts.
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:32.240
And and and you know, unmasking uh without names, um, you know, the data behind it was it mostly Amazon folks that were able to fund?
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:34.720
Were they outside of your Amazon network?
00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:35.839
Can I ask?
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:45.759
My anchor investor, my two biggest investors are actually one was my mom's neighbor.
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:50.160
Um, my mother actually also moved to Amsterdam to spend her retirement here with us.
00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:52.240
And her neighbor is was American.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:56.000
And my mom's like, yeah, I think that he works for this like chip company or something.
00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:56.960
I'm like, NVIDIA?
00:25:57.200 --> 00:25:58.160
She's like, Oh, yeah, maybe.
00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:00.000
I'm like, okay, can you introduce me?
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:10.319
And so they took a leap of faith with us, and then he's had a whole bunch, he's worked for all the tech startups you could think of in Silicon Valley, and and his wife is unbelievably supportive and incredible as well.
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:12.799
And then they brought in two other investors for us.
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:14.960
So that's another thing that could kind of get the ball rolling.
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:16.559
A lot of angels will invest.
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:22.000
Um, I think he brought in, no, I know for sure he brought in three other investors for us.
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:30.240
So that one investor turned into four, one of them being our absolute anchor, where the majority of our funding came from a single individual through him.
00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:34.000
So um that's kind of how the game works.
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:44.799
When you were raising, um, I imagine you were already familiar with the cap table and how how this fund or rather this investment would translate into equity.
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:46.720
This is long-term equity, right?
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:51.519
The the liquidity event may not happen for years and you know down the road.
00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:56.720
I'm curious, how did you come to whatever percentages that you decided to give them?
00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:59.119
And and do you regret any of that?
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:00.640
Do any learnings from there?
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:03.039
I mean, any thoughts around that whole process?
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:07.680
We've we were we've been, I think with our cap table, we've made some made the right decisions.
00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:12.559
Um I still have you know the vast majority of the shares in my name.
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:17.920
Most VCs would think that our cap, that our um valuation is too high.
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:23.680
And that's kind of the catch 22 that we're stuck in right now, because I'm not gonna compromise on that.
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:28.640
I think that the valuation is appropriate, considering the potential of the company.
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:31.839
Um, we're never gonna down round our angels.
00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:38.720
I mean, you know, you say never say never, but it would kill me to have to do that, and that's absolutely never my intention.
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:40.880
But we do have an open round right now.
00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:42.799
And is it is it Europe?
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:44.559
Is it Europe investors mostly?
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:45.759
It's Europe, yeah.
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:53.119
So if I knew now what I knew then, I would never have started my startup in Europe, and especially not in the Netherlands.
00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:56.079
They are ultra, ultra risk averse.
00:27:56.319 --> 00:28:02.559
And so what's considered like a lunch tab in America is it considered a huge investment for these guys.
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:05.759
So that's been like another challenge that we're facing.
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.319
Most of my investors are American.
00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:12.240
The ones who are Dutch are know me personally like very well.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:14.880
But yeah, that one is really tough.
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:20.000
So we've got a couple of things that are, you know, adding to like the challenge ladder.
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:26.559
They that's definitely something to overcome uh because I know that we we've made the right decisions all the way along.
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:32.720
We're starting to see some of our other competitors going out of business, which was something we predicted would happen to them.
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:44.240
And I'm very proud of the decision, the strategic decisions that we've made that have kept us going, and that we're still here and we're still as committed to ever to making the company success.
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:49.279
But yeah, I'm frustrated by how some of the bad luck that we've run into has held us back a couple of years.
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:53.839
Yeah, that building burning down is just uh that sucked, yeah.
00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:54.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:57.039
How big's a team uh today?
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:05.119
Hiring people in the Netherlands is very, very risky because it's very difficult to fire people and then you have to pay the generous, generous, you know, um severance.
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:09.279
You also get taxed for employing people, so it's actually sort of a penalty.
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:22.720
But in this society, there are so many people that just prefer the flexibility of having their own independent businesses, that those are the people that we've always worked with, but we've worked with the same people for so long, it really feels like a team.
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:26.799
But they, you know, they send us invoices that that just works brilliantly for us.
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:28.160
How about the wins?
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:31.359
What are the good things about the Netherlands beyond quality of life?
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:34.480
Was there anything that that did kind of help?
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:43.359
Or, or you know, you say you you wouldn't do it again in the Netherlands, but are there reasons why anybody should start in the Netherlands, just out of curiosity?
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:54.319
I mean, if you're a fintech and that that's the reason that this market is flooded with fintechs, that the the uh unicorns here have all been fintechs, payment provider services, things like that.
00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:58.000
If you're an impact company, it's a pretty nice place to be.
00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:05.039
And this is why I had mentioned before we Started the conversation that I like to think of Ozarka is C2B2B.
00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:16.319
Because when we were like B2B, we didn't have to do any art outreach or marketing because all of our catering clients came to us because their customers were saying, Hey, we love your food.
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:19.039
We're sick of the packaging waste you're dumping on us.
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:19.599
Fix this.
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:22.480
So they come to us in a panic saying, could you have the reusables?
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:23.680
And we're like, yeah, yeah, we got you.
00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:24.400
It's cool.
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:28.160
And uh, and that can that has always been the case.
00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:34.240
And it the remember when I told you about um when uh that advisor said start small so you can start fast.
00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:34.720
Yeah.
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:40.799
Well, how we did that is we threw up a quick um takeaway and delivery site.
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:52.880
We recruited a couple of caterers and we got in some customers and we said, hey, you know, order food, but we're we're gonna serve it to you in reusables, but we're not gonna tell you what the container type's gonna be like.
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:54.400
And then we want to get your feedback.
00:30:54.559 --> 00:31:01.759
So sometimes they would get silicone or they get glass or they get aluminum, and because the product or the service was about reusables, right?
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:03.759
And so it was doing really well.
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:10.000
And we got lots and lots of orders right away, and we got the data that we needed so quickly that we were able to shut the site down.
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:12.000
And the people were really disappointed.
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:14.880
They were like, Well, we all you're shutting it down, or we really love this.
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:21.359
Like, yes, but you know, everybody tells you as a startup, you have to stay focused, or we've got our roadmap, and we're gonna start with the reusables first.
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:38.640
And looking back on it now, we didn't, we were, we just didn't have the confidence to see what was right before us that all of the things that people thought were gonna be complicated or complex, or that customers are lazy and never gonna return the reusables, like none of that happened.
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:41.440
And that's really where the Amazon experience comes in.
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:50.319
Every single time we've put a hypothesis around customer behavior, we've always been like 180 degrees wrong, which is so delightful and such a relief.
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:53.599
Like, ooh, I'm so glad we're testing this, we're prototyping this.
00:31:53.839 --> 00:32:00.480
But in that instant, we weren't able to see like the thing we thought was the hardest was actually the easiest.
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:02.319
It was right there in front of us.
00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:03.519
And that was another thing.
00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:11.519
So when we shut that down, the caterers were actually much more reticent to switch to reuse until they're in a panic situation.
00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:19.359
They had no desire to switch to reuse until they're threatening to you know have their business potentially lost from frustrated customers.
00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:21.759
And that's still continuing to be the case.
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:31.920
And so I always think to myself, if we would have just recognized that that was a pretty frictionless opportunity or experience, what were where would we be right now?
00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:36.240
I know where we'd be, we'd be where I think we're gonna be five years from now.
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:37.200
We would be there now.
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:39.839
I would probably be like acquired at this point.
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:46.160
So if I ever started another startup after that, after this, if this ever happens again, I'll be able to catch it.
00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:48.160
Our customer's always been the consumer.
00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:54.960
The consumer is so ready for getting rid of waste, they're so used for the connecting to their communities through food.
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:59.599
But the bottleneck is the caterer in the restaurant for very good reasons, by the way.
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:01.519
But um, that one hurts.
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:04.000
That one really hurts, but it's it's okay.
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:08.319
Well, the business sounds sound, I mean, the business sounds very interesting, to be honest.
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:11.519
You know, and obviously you have a pitch deck and you have all the different things.
00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:14.799
You you understand the whole startup world, everything it sounds like.
00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:24.079
If you got a chance to, let's say, let's hope that this is uh being listened to potentially some of your investors, what would be your pitch to them?
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:24.880
And how much?
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:26.720
How much would you want today?
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:32.400
Well, we're looking for again a modest amount by American standards, an enormous amount by European standards.
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:34.240
We're looking at three million.
00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:40.160
Um, it would still be something that looks like a bridge or you know, seed two, three.
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:41.680
It's not quite VC.
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:43.839
We would probably do it still with safe.
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:51.839
Um, but in exchange for that, we're very comfortable and receiving that funding in tranches based on hitting um revenue milestones.
00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:59.359
So we just need that because again, like while we've kept the team really small, we do need to bring on a business development manager.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:04.079
This is somebody actually, she's from Texas and she's American and she's an absolute powerhouse.
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:07.599
We need to put her on salary and really, really get this going.
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:14.400
And then we've actually also just developed our own tech that's um image recognition technology.
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:16.800
So a little bit of AI and AI light in there.
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:19.519
Um, that's how we process and track our containers.
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:21.920
Everybody else uses RFID and QR codes.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:23.440
Ours is much more robust.
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:29.119
So we need to put some money into proliferating um the hardware aspect of that.
00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:31.760
And then, yeah, the marketing and telling the story.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:34.480
So at this point, we're just so we're at the gate.
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:41.599
Like, you know, the model is ready, the restaurants are ready, the customers are ready, the tech's been built, we're ready to go.
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:43.840
We just, it's just that typical story.
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:49.679
We just need the growth, we need to keep the lights on, and we'd be on track within like 18 months.
00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:51.519
We think we can bring in 10 million in revenue.
00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:53.440
But I want this to be a billion-dollar business.
00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:59.039
My goal is to take 50% market share um in three years in the Netherlands.
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:01.039
And no European can hear that.
00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:02.480
They think that's absurd.
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:11.599
It actually happened in the US because our former colleague, Chris Payne, was the CEO of DoorDash, and that's exactly what he did in the US market.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:16.960
And not by coincidence, his strategy is exactly the same as mine because we're cut from the same cloth.
00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:19.679
I didn't even have to like research how DoorDash did it.
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:22.320
I was like, oh yeah, it looks like they did the same thing we're planning on doing.
00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:23.679
Like it's all there.
00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:29.039
We just need to be able to keep the lights on while we get the wheels in motion.
00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:29.760
So yeah.
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:34.320
You you you hit on something that everybody's talking about these days, uh, AI.
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:37.440
How how how's that impacted you guys?
00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:47.760
There's kind of a big arms race out there right now with LLMs, and there's all kinds of other things that are going on, and people are, you know, evaluating the different things to incorporate in their organizations.
00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:51.599
But because you're a smaller team, I imagine you're using a bit of AI.
00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:54.800
Can you tell us a little bit uh about how you're leveraging it?
00:35:55.280 --> 00:36:01.360
So, on a personal level, I've always believed that technology is at its best when it enhances the human experience rather than replaces it.
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:04.800
So we are not a tech company, but we are we're tech adjacent.
00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:08.639
So we use tech that's built by incredible people.
00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:12.559
And luckily, my partner is a very high-level jack of all trades.
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:16.800
He's like, I could I can code this in lovable and then I can, you know, finish it off and do it at a hackathon.
00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:18.480
So he built the whole thing himself.
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:25.199
And then we think that there's a really beautiful opportunity for AI to enhance the customer experience.
00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:28.559
So we want people to find menu items rather than restaurants.
00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:30.960
I mean, you know what it's like with the big guys.
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:45.039
It's like it's basically browse and search for pizza sushi burgers, and nobody can really say, This is what I'm feeling, this is what I'm thinking, my blood sugar's crashing, this is the type of food I need, and have an engine that intelligently serves that up to you.
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:50.800
So that's like a no-brainer, but nobody's doing people have played around with that a little bit, but nobody's doing it correctly.
00:36:50.960 --> 00:37:03.199
Again, like I haven't worked, I haven't worked for Amazon years longer than the total amount of time that I did work there, but all the lessons that we learned there, as painful as it was to learn them, still sit with me every day.
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:05.679
Um, I still call on them every day.
00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:14.880
And just like again, that obsessive focus on the customer experience down to the tiniest little detail is what's going to make the difference for us.
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:27.199
And because the Netherlands, people here are so not accustomed to exceptional customer experience, they're they're used to very horrible customer experience that like it's not even that hard to like delight them.
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:39.280
It's just this big giant opportunity just waiting for us here and to really revolutionize Dutch culture here in terms of sort of elevating the standard of excellence through Zeti.
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:41.280
So that's the AI story.
00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:50.880
And also, this is another thing, Brandon, as a female founder, there's plenty of VCs out there that support women in deep tech or AI.
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:56.880
But I also feel like that's once again like forcing women to try and compensate a deficit in STEM.
00:37:57.039 --> 00:38:01.920
And while that is important, it's also not something that we created from the beginning.
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:06.719
And when you look over to like sustainability, that's where women are really leading the way.
00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:14.639
Yet what happens is when you tell someone, oh yeah, I'm a female founder, they go, Oh, let me guess your impact, your sustainability, and there's almost this eye roll.
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:19.679
So again, the default is just this like this dismissiveness, this bias.
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:25.920
And so that's another opportunity of funding that we're shut out of because we're not a deep tech company.
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:38.880
We're just like a smart, sound, deeply profitable, responsible, environmentally correct, customer-delighting company that's good for society, good for the planet, good for people, good for the food.
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:40.800
We're building something really beautiful.
00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:46.079
And uh it just doesn't fit very easily into these predetermined silos.
00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:47.679
So that's that's another barrier.
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:57.599
You you were speaking about uh Amazon and your learnings, and I want to hit that here in a second, but I want to extend what you just said a little bit more before we hit the Amazon learnings.
00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:07.119
If if you could change the entire ecosystem, you know, where it does support women, what are some of the top things you think need to change?
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:17.280
Like, you know, obviously the the money flow needs to change, but I mean, it because you also mentioned it's not easy to change the mentality of all these men, right?
00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:19.920
Because they're they're used to what they're used to.
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:33.760
And I would even argue there's another component that I won't even talk about on this podcast, but I will tell you in private what's actually happening underneath the seams because they won't admit it and they can't admit it because it's too controversial.
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:41.280
Um well now everybody's gonna want to know what you're leave it to the next episode with Matt.
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:45.360
Uh no, but we'll put it behind the paywall on your sub stack if they want to know.
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:49.119
But I will give you I'll give you a hint.
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:53.679
It it rolls around three letters that we all know.
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:56.000
It's at the start with S and end in X?
00:39:56.239 --> 00:39:57.039
Yeah, maybe.
00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:10.960
Um, and Maslow would tell you years ago when he decided to create the hierarchy of needs, it was probably at the base, you know, and it's something that unfortunately men in general they don't get too rational about it until later in life.
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:13.039
And even at that point, they're still not rational.
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:15.360
Um, and so I I don't know.
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:16.880
What makes the world go around?
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:23.920
And so to punish men for that, or to or or to be angry at men for being men doesn't get us anywhere.
00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:27.840
This is another thing that we're facing a lot, something that's analogous.
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:36.639
There in my world, there's a debate between who's responsible for litter, the individual who throws it on the ground, or you know, the company like Red Bull that makes it in the first place.
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:39.599
For me, it's like, look, we have to be practical.
00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:40.800
This is a very Dutch thing.
00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:47.920
If if relying on hundreds of millions of individuals to do the right thing every day works, it would have already worked.
00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:51.920
So you can judge them, you can call people lazy, you can say that people don't care.
00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:56.079
Even if that's true, admitting, saying it doesn't get us anywhere.
00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:57.119
You have to be practical.
00:40:58.320 --> 00:40:59.920
The only solution is upstream.
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:06.239
And it's the same thing with these basic nature of human beings.
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:16.400
And you know, something else that's been really beautiful for me is that when I am in a room that's just women, um, it's so lovely.
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:19.920
The the energy is completely different.
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:30.320
And again, it's not that we don't love men, or it's not that, like, you know, if a man walks into the room, then the energy kind of changes a little bit, but we we need that space for ourselves and we need for everyone to say, okay, we get it.
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:32.239
You know, the guys always have their 5 a.m.
00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:37.760
basketball games at at Amazon, but like we need our space to please let us have it.
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:43.679
Like, just give us the time to build to let us be in an environment that feels great for us too.
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:47.199
And and I think that that kind of touches on what you're saying.
00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:55.599
Um, man, there's a whole other thing that we can talk about there about the entrepreneur scene that I've seen happening in the Middle East, but um, maybe that's for another part.
00:41:56.559 --> 00:41:59.840
Um but we have we just need our own culture, you know.
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:01.519
We need our girls' club too.
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:09.039
So so, but you did touch on Amazon learnings because we did things at Amazon or that that helped it become what it is today.
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:14.800
Um, any other learnings that you would say you apply to your business today from Amazon that's actually been effective?
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:22.880
Yeah, and I think this goes back to what you were saying about if we had to like switch the whole ecosystem, like how would we do it?
00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:26.000
I mean, for me, it is all about the money.
00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:30.000
It's not like there isn't enough, it's just how it just distributed.
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:35.760
Just give women the money and give us years to turn our businesses into something amazing.
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:40.239
Like, just it it's just such an easy, painless thing to do.
00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:46.639
Like, what if Jeff Bezos just gave a billion dollars away to female entrepreneurs, like like his wife, his ex-wife is doing?
00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:51.599
You know, that just having that capital fixes a lot of problems, a lot of problems.
00:42:51.920 --> 00:43:21.199
But in terms of the Amazon experience, just especially in those early days where we were just allowed to do anything at any expense for the customer, everybody knew that that wasn't gonna last forever, but just being able to, again, it's about that empathetic, sympathetic experience, being able to receive the pleasure of delighting customers or delighting our partners is something that I'm always chasing.
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:36.880
The one thing I would also think about is that this was like the biggest difference between Amazon and Microsoft, at least in the Netherlands, is that Amazon, at least in those days, I don't know what it's like now, I think really treated employees as a liability.
00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:40.719
Microsoft really treated treats customer or employees like an asset.
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:48.239
And I really think that Amazon could have achieved everything that it achieved if it, but also didn't have to go as fast as it did.
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:50.719
For me, it came at a really personal cost.
00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:54.800
I did have a burnout, um, completely doubting my self-worth.
00:43:54.880 --> 00:44:01.360
Like, you know, you it's just one of those things where it's like, it's not that you you're suffering, it's like, oh, you're just becoming incompetent.
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:03.840
And that's that's something that still sticks with me.
00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:08.639
I'm like, oh my God, but you're failing, you're failing, you're incompetent, you don't know what you're doing, you're too old, you don't have the energy.
00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:10.400
I'm like, no, no, you're just you're just tired.
00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:11.920
You didn't, did you eat anything today?
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:12.639
Did you get up?
00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:13.519
Did you drink anything?
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:15.039
No, you're just dehydrated.
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:18.960
But that's that like kind of self-care compassion isn't the default.
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:21.679
The default is like, work, right, push through it, you know.
00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:28.079
And I'm not, yeah, that's something that um that's something that was required at Amazon.
00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:35.360
And um, it it was thrilling, but I don't think anybody in this day and age is gonna be seduced by golden handcuffs.
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:36.400
At least I hope not.
00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:38.239
You know, it's your one life.
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:39.599
So yeah, 100%.
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:52.079
When I joined, I think it was 2001, um, we were at what$12 a share at the time, and you know, we got all a thousand shares if we started at the standard level of employee.
00:44:52.559 --> 00:45:02.880
We thought eBay was the the big you know dog in the house or whatever, and we we were scared, and you know, he brought up Target, and I remember Nordstrom and a few other relationships at the time.
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:16.960
One thing that I I remember very specifically was when I stood up to him in a corporate meeting and I asked him, Why are you not paying us as much as um our our you know competitors across the street at Spedia or Microsoft or whatever the case may be, and he laughed at me.
00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:24.239
He laughed at me and and he actually um said, you know, like you got stock options.
00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:25.840
Um, what are you complaining about?
00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:34.880
And you know, I I I referenced his sons because I I just had my twin boys at the time, and I was just like, you know, it's not easy making sixty thousand dollars.
00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:44.719
I mean, you know, family of four on sixty thousand dollars on the assumption that this these stock options will will will cash out at some point, which it did, you know, it just took 12 years, probably or more.
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:49.920
And and uh the good news is we had a really good second in charge in HR.
00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:54.239
She stopped me right outside the door and she goes, I'm really sorry for what Jeff said.
00:45:54.400 --> 00:46:03.599
Um could you start yeah, and and she said, Could you start a committee with Alyssa Black and a few other folks that were, you know, who were somewhat progressive in the company?
00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:14.639
Um, and we met, you know, regularly to to see if we could change the thing, you know, like donate to United Way, you know, improve the image or whatever it is, uh, but also you know, do some social good.
00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:18.400
But they denied every single thing we we asked for.
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:27.199
I tell you this story because of the fact that when I went to Expedia, we were meeting for the sake of meetings.
00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:28.880
We had no purpose.
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:29.920
That's terrible.
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:32.719
Yeah, we had the opposite problem, right?
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:38.960
And so I don't know what the what the best uh uh environment is, but it can be bad on both sides, right?
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:44.559
And I I don't know all the things that I took away from Amazon, but I just know it had good people.
00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:48.639
I do remember all the recruiters that I worked with, they were amazing.
00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:58.159
We we had some amazing recruiters in Amazon, and that and that's maybe one thing that I would say uh uh Amazon gave us, but they've gone on to do pretty good things.
00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:03.679
Uh Janine and uh um I can't remember all of them, but uh just just wonderful people.
00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:16.639
But you know, as I kind of tell you some of this, um, if any other things resonate or any any other things you remember besides Yeah, I mean one one thing that came out of that was um who are your stakeholders, who are your customers.
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:29.440
And so I I knew pretty early on that I was never gonna, if I was ever, I'm getting a bit out of myself here considering we're struggling to put three million euros together, but if we were to ever be in an opportunity where we could IPO, I would never do it.
00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:35.440
Like that my strategy is to be acquired by a company that I believe in if as an exit, if we exit.
00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:54.719
Um, because I just I just never want to be in that position where I have to sacrifice any of my or compromise any of the things that made the company great in order to, you know, have to um justify the stock price to who are now the people that literally own my company.
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:59.199
Um and that's again like that that's something that I took away from Amazon.
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:02.559
That was a really easy decision to make from the very beginning.
00:48:02.960 --> 00:48:03.840
Um, yeah.
00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:05.840
So that makes sense.
00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:09.760
Yeah, well, and we never have meetings, like this is like part of our corporate culture.
00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:16.159
I'm like, everybody's gotten so afraid of picking up the phone and just talking that I make my I'm like, do not send me a text.
00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:23.599
You you can send me a voice message, but just just do not send me an a meeting invitation where you just need to talk to me on the phone.
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:24.400
Just call me.
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:27.280
And if I'm not available, I'll call you back, just like we used to.
00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:29.039
It's so much easier that way.
00:48:29.199 --> 00:48:30.000
It's ridiculous.
00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:31.119
I don't know what happened to us.
00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:32.480
We stopped doing that.
00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:34.800
That's a great tip, actually.
00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:37.199
Yeah, just pick up the phone, call me.
00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:38.159
Two seconds.
00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:43.920
We always end this podcast with three questions, if you don't mind.
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:48.559
And and because we're kind of at that hour, I just want to make sure we we respect your time.
00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:53.519
So the first of the three questions is who is your hero?
00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:55.360
I've got two.
00:48:55.840 --> 00:49:06.559
And they both could not be more cliche, but of course, the first one is my mother, um, who's just like a small town little farm girl who was just born looking up and out, like I'm gonna get out.
00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:10.159
And you know, she traveled Europe and she lives here with us now.
00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:19.440
And I and I got that from her, and um my whole entire existence, well, my lifestyle wouldn't have been possible without her sort of showing me the way.
00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:29.360
But then my other heroes are actually my angel investors, because when somebody says yes to you, you're crazy when all you have is an idea.
00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:32.800
I just think that's like such an act of bravery.
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:42.480
And I just feel such tremendous commitment and gratitude toward them that um that was just like the first thing that came to mind when I was thinking about who my heroes are.
00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:48.960
They would definitely like be like, that you're being so lame and dorky right now, but that's how I feel about them.
00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:52.480
Um, yeah, so those would be my heroes.
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:54.800
Those are those are great answers, by the way.
00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:55.199
Yeah.
00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:59.599
Um, the next one's kind of related, but at the same time a little bit different, I would say.
00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:04.880
Um, we we still like to ask this question, but who are good role models for society today?
00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:07.920
Because obviously we got some really interesting things going on.
00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:11.760
All right, this is gonna be a very unpopular answer.
00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:31.199
I am going to say that my role model is Chat GPT because I have been experimenting with ChatGPT in the form of a therapist or um a CFO, and of course, it's never perfect, and you have to catch it for that.
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:35.519
For my optometrist has been replaced by Chat GPT.
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:47.599
That again, the reason I'm giving you that unconventional answer is because it makes it accelerates the best aspects of my own personality.
00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:53.119
And so, yes, that's my incredibly left of center answer for that.
00:50:53.280 --> 00:51:01.760
But if we don't screw this up, if we don't screw AI up and make it evil, it could be amazing for us.
00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:08.559
So I'm going to be optimistic, and that's why I'm going to say that AI agents are my role model.
00:51:08.719 --> 00:51:16.559
I'm holding them up on a pedestal that they they now have to feel morally responsible to staying there and being the world.
00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:24.320
Well, well, timing-wise, you couldn't have talked about it in a uh a better uh part of history because I think they just upgraded to 5.0.
00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:27.119
Um, so and I've seen some of the benchmarks.
00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:31.360
Um, it looks like it's kicking Claude's butt now, and along with uh there's a it is.
00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:39.760
I I go back and forth, like some, you know, some months Claude seems to be better, some Chat GPT, I think ChatGPT is a little bit better than Claude, a little bit more accurate right now.
00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:43.039
So, but yeah, I'm I'm a bit agnostic to the actual platform.
00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:43.840
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:44.079 --> 00:52:02.320
Well, what will be really interesting is the long term because of all the um gamesmanship behind the scenes with Zuckerberg trying to hire all the top talent and and open AI still trying to retain and and and the money that's being thrown around to to these people and and whether or not the money's what's gonna motivate them all.
00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:06.559
Um anyway, it's it's a it's a yeah, in my opinion, it's an exciting time.
00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:09.440
It's it's crazy, but but it's it's exciting for me.
00:52:09.519 --> 00:52:10.239
But no, thank you.
00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:22.880
That's a very it is very like I don't you guys like there's the the the bias is already being built into you, so I'm speaking to you as this is a almost sentient thing, like you're my role model, like don't don't do the wrong thing.
00:52:23.039 --> 00:52:23.840
Come on.
00:52:25.519 --> 00:52:30.000
Well, my mom tells me all the time, trust chat GPT.
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:34.880
She she literally says, trust chat, she says believe in it or something along those lines.
00:52:34.960 --> 00:52:35.920
And I'm just like, what?
00:52:36.239 --> 00:52:43.519
You know, you were telling me to to believe in God uh multiple times this past week, and now you want me to also believe in chat GPT.
00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:47.119
So um, yeah, I have a I have a very interesting mom.
00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:48.000
I think you like her.
00:52:48.079 --> 00:52:49.360
She's kind of like your mom as well.
00:52:49.440 --> 00:52:52.000
If she knew about the Netherlands, she'd be there to join you.
00:52:52.239 --> 00:52:53.440
Um, you know, you and your mom.
00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:55.039
Yeah, open invitation.
00:52:56.239 --> 00:52:57.039
Thank you, thank you.
00:52:57.199 --> 00:52:59.039
All right, this last question is pretty easy.
00:52:59.119 --> 00:53:01.119
Uh uh, what's your favorite food?
00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:02.639
Where's your go-to?
00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:04.079
Ice cream.
00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:05.679
That one's so easy for me.
00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:10.159
I've never eaten a quantity of ice cream where I didn't want to eat any more ice cream.
00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:13.039
So I just I love everything about it.
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:15.280
The coldness, the texture, the multiple flavors.
00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:17.679
Like it's just my absolute favorite food.
00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:21.360
My favorite, favorite ice cream of all the ice creams is mint chocolate chip.
00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:25.039
And and what's your favorite brand or brands out there?
00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:26.480
I I make my own.
00:53:26.719 --> 00:53:30.639
So in my Quison Art Ice Cream Maker, yeah, second to none.
00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:31.760
Oh, interesting.
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:32.719
Okay, yeah.
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:41.440
Um, if you get to listen to episode two, uh Kevin Henriksen, um, he has this device, he said, I think it's a ninja something or another, but I can't remember.
00:53:41.599 --> 00:53:48.320
But it creates, I think, a form of ice cream or some kind of cream uh uh of you know, mixed items.
00:53:48.400 --> 00:53:52.960
It doesn't necessarily have to be the typical ice cream flavors, but he he says that's his favorite thing as well.
00:53:53.039 --> 00:53:58.480
And he he has multiple at his multiple houses because he was head of uh engineering at Instacart.
00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:05.519
He was uh responsible for the uh startup that uh uh Microsoft bought to convert to Outlook and he was building the Outlook team.
00:54:05.599 --> 00:54:08.000
So he's had a few nice exits and stuff like that.
00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:09.199
But yeah, he talks about that.
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:11.920
So it's interesting that you both talk about this ice cream.
00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:13.280
I can talk about ice cream.
00:54:13.599 --> 00:54:14.639
What's your favorite food?
00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:15.280
Me?
00:54:15.519 --> 00:54:16.880
Um, I'll be honest.
00:54:16.960 --> 00:54:20.639
Uh it it it goes, it changes all the time, but lately it's been pho.
00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:23.519
So I was just gonna say that too.
00:54:23.679 --> 00:54:33.039
Just like the most that would be like for a savory because it's all about the unadulterated flavor of the ingredient.
00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:38.639
That's what faux is so so the beautiful cilantro, the beautiful beef, the beautiful broth.
00:54:38.719 --> 00:54:50.480
It's not like you're mixing something into some you know, complicated sauce, it's just about the combination of plucking something off the garden, putting it into the bowl, and it's just so delicious.
00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:52.239
Yeah, I'm right there with you.
00:54:52.559 --> 00:54:53.280
It's amazing.
00:54:53.360 --> 00:54:58.079
So whenever I go anywhere, it's like one of the first type of restaurants I always look for, no matter where it is.
00:54:58.159 --> 00:55:06.719
And and fortunately, it the Vietnamese have have have popped them up everywhere, but um, there are places in this world, unfortunately, it's not as good.
00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:09.280
And and uh it saddens me.
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:11.039
It really does sadden me.
00:55:11.199 --> 00:55:13.440
So I wish there was more, but anyway.
00:55:13.679 --> 00:55:17.039
Well, Ben, this this was this was really a wonderful conversation.
00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:19.119
Uh and I'm so pleased.
00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:21.840
I'm I'm very thankful that you joined us today.
00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:33.599
And honestly, I I swear to god, I'm gonna follow up with you on not only Ozarka, but also uh learning more about you know, not not uh or we need money, not not friends.
00:55:33.760 --> 00:55:36.400
Um because I would love to help you with that.
00:55:36.559 --> 00:55:41.760
But um, but to finish off, one thing we do uh last is is how do people reach out to you?
00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:47.280
Um so when we we find the right person who's gonna give you those three million euros, um, how are they gonna reach out to you?
00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:54.880
And uh, you know, and if you're interested in doing more podcast interviews, yeah, where where's the best place to reach reach you?
00:55:55.360 --> 00:55:57.119
It's Beth Massa on LinkedIn.
00:55:57.280 --> 00:56:02.079
Um, you know, I'm quite an active voice on LinkedIn, Beth at Ozarka.biz.
00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:03.199
That's B-I-Z.
00:56:03.440 --> 00:56:10.000
Um, but I think the easiest thing to remember is just to look me up on LinkedIn, send me a little message, and um and uh I'll respond.
00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:10.639
Okay.
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:17.039
Well, I I I do have a small question on this because Kevin was saying he has somewhere around 150 inbounds a day.
00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:21.199
And so um, and then we get all this spam on LinkedIn, unfortunately.
00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:27.440
Um, is there is there a thing that you look for when you look at these 12 different messages where seven of them are like spam?
00:56:28.960 --> 00:56:31.360
Yeah, like yes, yes.
00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:39.840
I can tell what it's like, some you know, bot disguising itself as like an Eastern European IT stat backend stack developer that's trying to sell me services.
00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:43.280
That's that's what all the spam is, and then the real stuff is really obvious.
00:56:43.519 --> 00:56:47.599
So yeah, it's it's definitely interesting.
00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:49.119
All right, well, thank you, Beth.
00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:54.239
Um, we we really had a great time, so appreciate you spending some time with us today.
00:56:54.559 --> 00:56:55.440
Thanks, Brandon.
00:56:55.760 --> 00:56:59.760
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Welcome to Startup Wins.
00:00:01.840 --> 00:00:04.799
Twice a month we share real stories and smart tips.
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Subscribe and join the journey.
00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:12.560
Welcome back to another episode of Startup Wins.
00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:18.079
Um, we are lucky to have one of my friends here, Beth Massa, on the show.
00:00:18.399 --> 00:00:19.440
Hi, Brandon.
00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:20.079
Thank you.
00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:21.920
Thrilled to be here.
00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:23.920
Appreciate you being here.
00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:30.000
So before we jump into the show, I thought maybe we would kind of learn a little bit about what Beth is doing.
00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:42.560
But we used to be uh alumni of this little company called Amazon that now uh supposedly is ubiquitous throughout the world for all these products you can order like within hours, it seems like in some places.
00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:45.920
I'm actually curious how it is in Europe because that's where Beth is here.
00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:49.920
So, Beth, actually, actually, where where where are we uh speaking to you from?
00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:52.320
I'm in Amsterdam in the Netherlands.
00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:53.280
Amsterdam.
00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:55.039
Amsterdam.
00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:59.600
I mean, you you've been you were in the Seattle area quite a bit, right?
00:00:59.840 --> 00:01:00.560
Yeah, I was.
00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:09.760
I moved to Seattle in 1996 because the city was just so beautiful.
00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:13.120
I couldn't believe that people actually lived there.
00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:15.519
So I was like, I could live here too.
00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:20.799
So I just moved and then I um got this temp job at this little startup called Amazon.
00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:28.959
The stars sort of aligned, and then I had that feeling again about 10 years later when I visited Amsterdam for the first time.
00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:31.040
So I trusted that feeling.
00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:38.879
And my think that my relationship with Seattle was changing, um, maybe not so much in a good way.
00:01:39.120 --> 00:01:47.200
And at Amsterdam, it was just this life that I always dreamed of living was just here waiting for me to find it.
00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:49.200
So we moved and never looked back.
00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:51.120
Yeah, no, that's so cool.
00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:53.840
Um, I mean, uh honestly, let we're gonna dive into that.
00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:59.519
But before we do, if if you don't mind, we're gonna maybe let the listeners um hear a little bit about what you're doing.
00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:00.480
What so what are you doing?
00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:03.840
What is this company that you're basically building?
00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:05.599
And uh yeah, let's start there.
00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:08.080
Well, we have a startup here called Ozarka.
00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:21.840
Ozarka aims to bring an end to single-use food packaging worldwide, and that includes everything from every sort of material that is like a linear waste stream.
00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:29.919
While we would love to take on the bottled water industry first, when you're a tiny little startup, you're not gonna get very far trying to defeat that Goliath.
00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:35.039
So the lane that we picked was ready to consume and made-to-order food.
00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:42.639
So we were working with caterers and restaurants and food trucks and festivals to replace disposables with reusable packaging.
00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:45.599
And there's a whole system to keep it all in circulation.
00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:53.120
And now we're moving on to the phase where we're actually thinking about not just the packaging, but the food that goes in it.
00:02:53.280 --> 00:03:00.879
So we are building a new takeaway and delivery model that's so different than the current experience.
00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:04.639
We like to say it's the opposite of today's takeaway and delivery.
00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:15.120
Um, from a sustainability standpoint, customer service standpoint, you know, the amount, the margins that we're uh charging restaurants is half what they're used to right now.
00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:22.240
And um, our margins are, in spite of the slashing commissions, 600% higher than the industry standard.
00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:28.159
It's very hard to correct course when you're a large multinational company like the big guys.
00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:34.319
And so we were like, we're in this great opportunity to build it right from the ground up, and that's what we're doing right now.
00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:35.120
Oh well.
00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:38.159
That company's called Zeti, so it's a separate brand.
00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:39.599
Okay, okay, interesting.
00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:44.639
So, but this has been a I imagine a very interesting entrepreneurial path.
00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:47.840
I mean, you said you got some contract work at Amazon, probably.
00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:49.680
What did you do at Amazon again?
00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:52.159
Like most people, I did a couple different things.
00:03:52.400 --> 00:04:00.800
So um I actually went after graduating from college, intended to be a music journalist and also living in Seattle.
00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:07.280
So until you know, Rolling Stone called me up and offered me a full-time job, because you know that just happens.
00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:13.520
Um, I got a temp job at this little startup called Amazon in the current customer service department.
00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:16.480
So that's where I started for like the first couple of months.
00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:23.759
Then I was one of the first three editors indeed hired at the in the music store, and then went on to do some product management.
00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:27.680
We I did the target.com relationship, if you remember that back in the day.
00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:28.240
Oh, yeah.
00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:33.839
Then went back to sort of merchandising management for music and software and video games.
00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:39.040
And that was the last role I had before I moved halfway around the world.
00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:45.600
And did you do that uh via Amazon's dollars or did you do that on your own, just out of curiosity?
00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:47.360
Yeah, no, I did it on my own.
00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:52.480
You know, moving to Amsterdam again was it wasn't a professional decision, it was a personal and emotional one.
00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:54.000
And so I needed to find a job.
00:04:54.160 --> 00:05:00.560
And it took about two years of networking while I was still at Amazon to get the um to get an offer.
00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:06.879
And just by sheer coincidence, the offer I got was from Microsoft, even though I never worked at Microsoft in Seattle.
00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:17.040
And so they just had a very like compensation in Europe, especially in the Netherlands, is incredibly generous compared to what Americans are used to.
00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:21.759
So, you know, I think most Americans think of Europe, they think of incredibly high taxes.
00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:27.120
And while that's true, there's another side to living here which is really, really wonderful.
00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:36.079
So it was a very soft landing for me to move and then also for to depart from Microsoft, which is actually a key part of my startup story as well.
00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:38.480
Yeah, could you tell us a little about that?
00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:39.360
Yeah, sure.
00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:49.199
So I don't mean this to be self-deprecating, but what happened was I was hired to manage content for a site that spoke to small businesses.
00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:57.759
The management team said, Yeah, um, hey, fancy Amazon girl, you know that thing that Amazon does where they're like, people who bought this also bought that.
00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:01.439
Can you build us a recommendation engine for content as well?
00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:07.439
And I was like, Yeah, but I need a couple of years and like a seven, several million dollar budget in a team.
00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:11.040
And they're like, right, yeah, you have six months and 75,000 euros.
00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:12.240
What can you build us?
00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:21.519
And then I was like, oh no, like these people have no idea what it takes to build a world-class website.
00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:30.399
And so for the next 10 years, Brandon, I just kind of floated from team to team to project to project, trying to find my place.
00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:35.120
I like to joke that I was sort of the the like diversity house pet.
00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:37.680
I think they just sort of liked having me around.
00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:43.839
And my last role there was what I think we would call an intrapreneurship.
00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:49.279
So this was right when Azure and cloud computing was starting to come onto the scene.
00:06:49.519 --> 00:07:01.199
And I realized that we had an untapped market, and that untapped market was the academic uh research community that have huge compute needs, everything is on premise.
00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:08.319
So I said to my bosses, like, this is huge, like, let me take a shot at this.
00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:22.079
And amazingly, they did, but I knew that the role was had a timestamp on it because um a subsidiary has a very short tolerance for business development.
00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:24.560
And so I'd said to them, this is gonna take five years.
00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:26.399
I am not gonna change my tune.
00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:30.240
When you guys start saying, like revenue, revenue, revenue, it's gonna take a while.
00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:45.519
And indeed, I knew after two years they were gonna start getting itchy, and I all I could do was stay consistent with my story, and knowing that this was probably gonna be my last role at Microsoft, like great company, no hard feelings, but again, just organically coming to an end.
00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:59.439
Then of all the researchers I was talking to, of course, being the Netherlands, um, there's a lot of water management research, and there was this group that was studying microplastics in the ocean, and this was years before this was headline news.
00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:01.680
And I was like, what do you mean there's microplastics in the ocean?
00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:05.199
We're all recycling, there's a problem that I guess actually, recycling's a lie.
00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:10.399
Everything's going being dumped into Southeast Asia and the global south, and it's a catastrophe.
00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:18.079
And for a variety of um reasons, this particular environmental problem like really captured my attention.
00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:28.639
And I'm gonna try and truncate the story, but uh to the point where I thought I know so much about this now, it feels like a moral responsibility to participate in a solution.
00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:33.919
So I sold my house in Seattle to bootstrap the company, and Ozarka was born.
00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:36.320
Yeah, but the soft landing part.
00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:47.039
So when you have what's called an off-blueprint role, which means it's a specialized role that's not a part of the org chart, those roles, when it's re-org time, are very vulnerable to being removed.
00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:50.399
And I knew that there was a very high chance that that was going to happen to me.
00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:56.240
So I strategically decided, well, I'm not gonna start the startup until I'm made redundant.
00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:05.919
Because in the Netherlands, when that happens to you, you um have six months to find another role within the company on full salary.
00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:08.559
So that's your only job is to find a new role.
00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:11.840
If you find a new role, everything's just resets.
00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:21.759
If you find, if say a role outside the company after a month, you still get the six months of full pay and your severance, which is usually about a year's salary.
00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:22.320
Oh, wow.
00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:26.879
So it was like a very soft landing for me to start this company.
00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:27.440
Yeah.
00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:33.919
So thank you, Netherlands, for your generous socialized compensation packages because it made starting Ozarka a lot easier.
00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:48.879
I think I'm gonna be packing my bags here pretty soon to I made the move to Austin, uh, assuming that it was a better environment, but uh now what you've just told me just outdoes anything in the United States.
00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:54.879
So I mean, I have yeah, I mean, I had another friend who's talking about Malta, and we were doing a little bit of research around that.
00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:55.919
Kind of fascinating.
00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:00.080
Malta's a great place to stock your money if you want to retire in Europe.
00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:04.879
Like, I don't think they tax your pension at all if your pension's coming from the US.
00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:10.639
There's a couple of countries in Europe that have these kind of lucrative tax schemes for expats.
00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:11.440
I see.
00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:12.080
Interesting.
00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:14.480
So, how long has this journey been so far?
00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:16.080
Um, when did you start as Arca?
00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:23.120
And and yeah, tell us a little bit about the the years of trials and tribulations and and hopefully lots of successes.
00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:26.960
It's been really hard, actually, Brandon, because we started in 2018.
00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:30.799
Again, I had a little bit of capital of my own, but was a bit of a cushion.
00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:36.240
So we spent that first year just kind of staring at the wall, going, okay, what's the business?
00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:37.360
What's the business model?
00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:38.480
Where do we start?
00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:40.159
It was a struggle.
00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:50.399
And then after a while, you start realizing that you're not asking the same questions or fighting over the same questions over and over again, that you're you're asking new questions.
00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:57.600
And since we've once we finally got that figured out, we got um some angel investors to kick in some pre-seed.
00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:06.799
We bought our first batch of reusables inventory and started to procure some clients, and then things were going really, really well.
00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:08.080
And then you know it's coming.
00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:17.120
COVID shut everything down for two years, and that was really hard because that was two years of like no revenue and everything's going chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk.
00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:25.279
And then what happened after that is everyone is spooked because in the hospitality industry, one week was completely different from the next.
00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:26.000
Are we open?
00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:26.639
Are we not?
00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:35.120
You know, is this gonna, even though COVID sort of officially ended, no one was feeling secure that it wasn't gonna continue to be the start and stop.
00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:39.360
And so that took like even another year to sort of get that rolling.
00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:48.879
And then our largest kind of bread and butter catering client moved into a larger facility, which was great for us because they were growing, we're growing.
00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:57.120
And then uh the entire facility that they just moved into burned to the ground and they stopped for a year, which means like we stopped for a year.
00:11:57.440 --> 00:11:58.559
Oh my god.
00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:16.320
At that point, we were like, you know, that on top of the fact that my company is founded by a female, which is me, watching our, you know, two white guy male competitors get, you know, tens of millions of euros in investment when we're struggling to put 300,000 together.
00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:19.440
It was just getting, it's just been really, really hard.
00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:30.080
And so the stage that we're at still is, you know, Ozark is still a small business, and it will continue to remain that way until we get the financing that we deserve.
00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:50.240
And yeah, it's been a battle, but the reward is the community, the other female founders that are in this fight with me, the alliances there, the commitment we have to each other there, the support we give each other when you know you feel like crying for the fifth time that week is not something that I would trade.
00:12:50.320 --> 00:13:10.720
And I almost wonder, looking back on all of this, while my company will be a success, if maybe the main point of it wasn't the company in and of itself, but to be a voice and a champion for female founders, it may be both, but I but that role has become just as important to me as running a business.
00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:11.759
I I I love that.
00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:35.279
Um, as as I mentioned in the conversation before we started recording today, I had two female friends who were, you know, they've done many different things, but they saw the discrepancy, at least in the United States, but probably it sounds like it's prevalent throughout the world, is that women get what, 2%, maybe at most 5% of the 100% high of all the venture capital that exists.
00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:37.120
Do you do you know what the latest numbers are?
00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:39.519
Um, how how how are those numbers in Europe?
00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:41.120
Yeah, it's it's still 2%.
00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:46.879
And so the counterpoint people will throw up is that, yeah, but only you know, 13% of companies are founded by women.
00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:55.840
And then the counterpoint to that is, but yeah, you know, female-run businesses have like a 50% higher increase in in revenue and profit margins than male-founded ones.
00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:05.279
But my experience has been as follows if we're pitching to a you know, some investors, of course, they'll ask about traction.
00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:07.679
And for me, traction means ARR.
00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:15.039
For my male counterparts, traction can mean any number of things, including like signups to a newsletter.
00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:34.159
And so what happens is that what you know, you'll hear me repeat the saying that's like the two white guys, two white guys, two white guys that are always showing up with my feed celebrating their new round, will get this money, they'll blow through it in record time on the brink of bankruptcy.
00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:40.399
And then what happens is that they get even more money than the first round because they learned.
00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:46.879
But what they learned are things that I've known for 20 years plus my entire career.
00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:49.279
That's what's so frustrating.
00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:58.399
Or they start out with a model that we know is not gonna work, they get all their money and then they pivot to something completely unrecognizable.
00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:09.759
And so, so then the criticism for female founders rolls around that, well, one of the reasons that people don't want to invest in us is because female founders tend to be too risk-averse.
00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:14.879
And I have to explain to them, well, we have to be, because our runway is all we've got.
00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:17.200
And if we screw up, that's the end of the line.
00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:20.879
Like, we don't want to be risk averse, but we you've given us no choice.
00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:24.960
So the message I'm trying to get out there to the VC world is like, I'm not too early.
00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:29.600
It's I'm not too early talking to you with my, you know, small um ARR.
00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:30.480
You're too late.
00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:38.720
Like, you have to start taking this jump with female founders if you know the status quo really wants to make a difference.
00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:40.799
I don't think that they do.
00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:43.919
That's not what I've experienced over all these years.
00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:49.840
So, yeah, that's why I decided to start my own fund, but that's a totally different um project.
00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:56.960
No, I I I definitely I don't know if I want to say empathize, because obviously I can't empathize, but definitely sympathize, but then that sounds bad.
00:15:57.279 --> 00:15:58.080
That doesn't sound bad.
00:15:58.320 --> 00:15:58.799
No, it's okay.
00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:01.039
It's not it's not an impossible story to understand.
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:03.440
So no, I appreciate I appreciate that.
00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:08.320
Yeah, we can do the typical raise, we can do everything that most venture capital firms do.
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:18.000
But my co-founder, a woman um who I've known for 35 years, class college classmate um, and I are just trying to change the whole ethos of the system.
00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:25.919
And one of the biggest initiatives is to make sure that women get the right amount of financing to make it to the next level.
00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:33.519
In our in our initial recruitment, we had about 123 applicants for three positions, and guess what?
00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:41.519
Like 99, I'd say 97% were men, and we had three or four amazing women, by the way.
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:42.879
Amazing women.
00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:46.879
Um, unfortunately, unfortunately, the first woman had family issues.
00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:51.360
We offered her a position, but she had family issues, so she tended to the family.
00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:53.360
So what's that mean?
00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:55.440
Women care, right?
00:16:55.759 --> 00:17:00.559
Women care about the right priorities, and our priority is the same as hers, family first.
00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:10.400
We are still committed to probably hire the sixth and seventh person as being female, so that at least we get a certain percentage of women so that we can make these decisions.
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:18.319
But um, I sympathize, but also I I hope that we can work with you um and and supporting you.
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:23.839
Um, as as you know, we we we introduced you to a fantastic seven time founder.
00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:26.720
And so we hope that that relationship will blossom into something.
00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:32.000
So I will get off my soapbox and just say, damn it, let's fix this problem together.
00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:35.440
Yeah, and it's so thank you for that.
00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:45.359
And it it the insight that you've unearthed there is that it it's basic human nature that we sort of gravitate toward our own.
00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:49.759
And this was a revelation I had when I was still at Microsoft.
00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:55.440
Um, I'd always been, you know, working predominantly in a male-dominated industry.
00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:57.680
And I was I was very comfortable with that.
00:17:57.839 --> 00:17:59.440
I've worked with wonderful men.
00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:03.279
I've also had bosses that were bullies, both men and women.
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:09.200
But I've been really lucky that that I've had so many wonderful relationships with men in my life.
00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:18.559
I'm not a man a man-basher, but it is very difficult to try and understand a bias when you haven't personally experienced it.
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:27.440
And and that's why so the the insight that I had to finish the story at Microsoft, I am I'm on a university somewhere.
00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:37.519
In my professional experience, most of the women I worked with were in traditional women um departments like PR or HR marketing.
00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:42.960
I walked into this classroom one day and it was a software engineering classroom, and it was all guys.
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:52.400
And this isn't gonna sound so nice, but they were just like your typical, like really geeky, sweet boys, but just so like nerdy, geeky software engineers.
00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:53.759
And I was like, you know what?
00:18:53.920 --> 00:19:00.799
If I if I was like a cool, fun, hip, smart girl, these are not my people.
00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:01.839
This is not my tribe.
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:06.400
These are not the people that I would want to spend the next four years of my life bonding with.
00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:20.400
And it was at that moment that I realized, oh no, like this is an entire like lucrative industry, assuming AI doesn't wipe it out, that yet another generation of women are totally missing out on.
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:30.880
So that's when I had that epiphany, like we need to build our own culture in our own way, on our own time and in our own terms, just like the geeky guys did in like the 70s.
00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:32.640
You know, that was great for them.
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:36.799
It was great for their culture and made them incredibly wealthy, the wealthiest guys on earth.
00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:49.200
But to ask them to all of a sudden pivot to something that's so like epigenetically deep in them to overcome a bias, it might be in the time we need it to happen too much to ask.
00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:54.000
So, so again, that's why I'm like, ladies, come on, we need to do this for ourselves, just like those guys did.
00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:57.920
And but we need allies like you to help accelerate that process.
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:02.559
So I don't come at this with any sort of like vitriol toward men.
00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:06.000
Um, maybe, you know, not as much as maybe one might assume.
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:06.559
Yeah.
00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:13.200
So so you it sounds like you have an organization or you're lobbying for these efforts through a vehicle.
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:13.920
Is that correct?
00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:27.359
Yeah, so it's a little bit of fun, but one day I was dropping off some clothes and items at a um, they call it a kringlopwinkel here in the Netherlands, like a charity shop or, you know, like goodwill, goodwill type place.
00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:34.720
And off the corner of my eye was this clothes rack, and on the clothing rack, I saw this t-shirt and it said, I should, I should have worn it for an interview.
00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:36.400
It said, need money, not friends.
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:38.559
And I just thought that was so funny.
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:42.240
And I kept looking at it, and I got, I gotta buy that t-shirt.
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:50.720
And so um, I wore it, and then I posted this comment on LinkedIn after I gotten um yet another rejection from a VC.
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:55.119
And I said, I'm done, I'm going dark, you know, for all the reasons that I've just discussed.
00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:56.960
We need to do this for ourselves.
00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:01.759
And so I'm gonna start my own fund called Need Money Not Friends.
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.079
And it's also a social movement.
00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:14.640
So I sell the t-shirts, and then any any woman who wants to express how frustrated they are with the funding landscape can like wear the shirt and talk about their story on social media.
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:18.720
That money will go into the proceeds from those t-shirts will go into a pool.
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:25.359
And then um, I'm also inviting people who want um an equity stake to maybe put in a larger ticket.
00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:29.839
My goal is to raise 10 million euros, which is a really small fund, but it's a start.
00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:35.440
And and yeah, the idea behind need money, not friends, isn't that we don't need friends, it's that we have enough friends.
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:39.440
I don't, you're an accelerator, you want to be my friend, you want me to pay for your friendship.
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:42.480
Don't need your acceleration, don't need your advice, don't need your mentorship.
00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:43.680
I need money.
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:48.640
So that's the whole um that's the ethos behind the slogan.
00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.400
I can't wait to to to jump on your train there.
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:58.319
Um, I you you you definitely got a new follower or you got a new uh member of this group or whatever it is.
00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:01.680
And um, I'm happy to help you with the marketing part of it.
00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:06.240
I mean, not that, you know, I'm sitting here um gonna Yeah, I always say yes to help.
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:09.359
Anyone who says we don't need your help, I think that's the wrong response.
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:11.759
I say yes to help always.
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:16.160
So so this is this is a really nice story, actually.
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:27.839
So in the early days, I did have an a couple of two advisors, they were both men, and they gave me amazing advice that I share to other people who are just starting their startup um the very, very beginning.
00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:31.680
The first bit of advice is start small so you can start fast.
00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:34.000
That doesn't mean you have to reduce your ambition.
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:39.279
You know, when I had mentioned to you, like we stared at the wall for a year, this guy kind of got us out of that.
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:43.519
We were in um just kind of what's the term, analysis paralysis.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:48.799
And he said, If I told you you had to start Ozark in six weeks, what would you do?
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.039
And that really got us going.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:55.920
You know, it's just like, okay, let's just have this tiny little silly business and just start.
00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:57.759
So that's that's really critical.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:05.119
And then the other great advice I got was the advisor said, Beth, you have no idea how big your network actually is.
00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:21.359
He said, Write down the name of every single person you can think of your whole life, if starting with a kindergarten teacher to a manager at work, every single person you can think of that gave you um a compliment or encouragement or thought seemed to think you were interesting.
00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:23.440
And he said, ask them for money.
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:28.799
And so I did that and I took a giant breath because that's scary.
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:35.920
As a result of that, I raised 240,000 euros in 23 hours.
00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:36.559
Wow.
00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:56.000
I wish it was, yeah, I wish it was always that way, but it included a lot of senior managers at at Amazon that had just noticed my work here or there, or we had a 30-second call conversation in an elevator where they gave me some praise, like any little moment, I wrote those guys down, and some of them ended up being my investors.
00:23:56.319 --> 00:23:56.960
Yeah.
00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:10.960
And and let me ask, because some people who are not experienced with the whole angel um raising or angel um um investments phase of building a startup, how did you approach that?
00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:13.279
Did you just email these people cold?
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:15.519
Did you do it individually?
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:16.799
What was your wins?
00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:20.640
What were the wins that basically helped you get that amount of money?
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:23.200
I emailed them cold individually.
00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:35.920
So I sent them all like the template body of the email, sandwiched it with you know a personal personalized note to them, you know, acknowledging my gratitude to our toward our relationship.
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:37.839
All about building relationships.
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:45.680
I'm sure that that's not new to anyone, but you're the one that has to build those relationships and you're the one that has to be brave enough.
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:49.920
And also keep in mind it feels good to help someone.
00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:55.359
A smart angel investor will never invest money that hurts if they lose it.
00:24:55.519 --> 00:25:02.640
So that's also something I have to kind of keep in the back of my mind because my angels have waited so long for Ozarka to get going.
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:12.799
But it's not, well, I think once you remember that if people don't believe in it and they can't afford it, they're not going to be offended that you're trying to do something amazing and they're going to be complicated that are complimented, I think.
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:16.319
At least I would be that you thought of them to kick in.
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:23.440
So you just, yeah, you just have to have a little bit of faith in humanity when you're when you're making those those first initial contacts.
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:32.240
And and and you know, unmasking uh without names, um, you know, the data behind it was it mostly Amazon folks that were able to fund?
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:34.720
Were they outside of your Amazon network?
00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:35.839
Can I ask?
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:45.759
My anchor investor, my two biggest investors are actually one was my mom's neighbor.
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:50.160
Um, my mother actually also moved to Amsterdam to spend her retirement here with us.
00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:52.240
And her neighbor is was American.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:56.000
And my mom's like, yeah, I think that he works for this like chip company or something.
00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:56.960
I'm like, NVIDIA?
00:25:57.200 --> 00:25:58.160
She's like, Oh, yeah, maybe.
00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:00.000
I'm like, okay, can you introduce me?
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:10.319
And so they took a leap of faith with us, and then he's had a whole bunch, he's worked for all the tech startups you could think of in Silicon Valley, and and his wife is unbelievably supportive and incredible as well.
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:12.799
And then they brought in two other investors for us.
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:14.960
So that's another thing that could kind of get the ball rolling.
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:16.559
A lot of angels will invest.
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:22.000
Um, I think he brought in, no, I know for sure he brought in three other investors for us.
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:30.240
So that one investor turned into four, one of them being our absolute anchor, where the majority of our funding came from a single individual through him.
00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:34.000
So um that's kind of how the game works.
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:44.799
When you were raising, um, I imagine you were already familiar with the cap table and how how this fund or rather this investment would translate into equity.
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:46.720
This is long-term equity, right?
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:51.519
The the liquidity event may not happen for years and you know down the road.
00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:56.720
I'm curious, how did you come to whatever percentages that you decided to give them?
00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:59.119
And and do you regret any of that?
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:00.640
Do any learnings from there?
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:03.039
I mean, any thoughts around that whole process?
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:07.680
We've we were we've been, I think with our cap table, we've made some made the right decisions.
00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:12.559
Um I still have you know the vast majority of the shares in my name.
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:17.920
Most VCs would think that our cap, that our um valuation is too high.
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:23.680
And that's kind of the catch 22 that we're stuck in right now, because I'm not gonna compromise on that.
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:28.640
I think that the valuation is appropriate, considering the potential of the company.
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:31.839
Um, we're never gonna down round our angels.
00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:38.720
I mean, you know, you say never say never, but it would kill me to have to do that, and that's absolutely never my intention.
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:40.880
But we do have an open round right now.
00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:42.799
And is it is it Europe?
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:44.559
Is it Europe investors mostly?
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:45.759
It's Europe, yeah.
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:53.119
So if I knew now what I knew then, I would never have started my startup in Europe, and especially not in the Netherlands.
00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:56.079
They are ultra, ultra risk averse.
00:27:56.319 --> 00:28:02.559
And so what's considered like a lunch tab in America is it considered a huge investment for these guys.
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:05.759
So that's been like another challenge that we're facing.
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.319
Most of my investors are American.
00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:12.240
The ones who are Dutch are know me personally like very well.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:14.880
But yeah, that one is really tough.
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:20.000
So we've got a couple of things that are, you know, adding to like the challenge ladder.
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:26.559
They that's definitely something to overcome uh because I know that we we've made the right decisions all the way along.
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:32.720
We're starting to see some of our other competitors going out of business, which was something we predicted would happen to them.
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:44.240
And I'm very proud of the decision, the strategic decisions that we've made that have kept us going, and that we're still here and we're still as committed to ever to making the company success.
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:49.279
But yeah, I'm frustrated by how some of the bad luck that we've run into has held us back a couple of years.
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:53.839
Yeah, that building burning down is just uh that sucked, yeah.
00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:54.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:57.039
How big's a team uh today?
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:05.119
Hiring people in the Netherlands is very, very risky because it's very difficult to fire people and then you have to pay the generous, generous, you know, um severance.
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:09.279
You also get taxed for employing people, so it's actually sort of a penalty.
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:22.720
But in this society, there are so many people that just prefer the flexibility of having their own independent businesses, that those are the people that we've always worked with, but we've worked with the same people for so long, it really feels like a team.
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:26.799
But they, you know, they send us invoices that that just works brilliantly for us.
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:28.160
How about the wins?
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:31.359
What are the good things about the Netherlands beyond quality of life?
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:34.480
Was there anything that that did kind of help?
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:43.359
Or, or you know, you say you you wouldn't do it again in the Netherlands, but are there reasons why anybody should start in the Netherlands, just out of curiosity?
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:54.319
I mean, if you're a fintech and that that's the reason that this market is flooded with fintechs, that the the uh unicorns here have all been fintechs, payment provider services, things like that.
00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:58.000
If you're an impact company, it's a pretty nice place to be.
00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:05.039
And this is why I had mentioned before we Started the conversation that I like to think of Ozarka is C2B2B.
00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:16.319
Because when we were like B2B, we didn't have to do any art outreach or marketing because all of our catering clients came to us because their customers were saying, Hey, we love your food.
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:19.039
We're sick of the packaging waste you're dumping on us.
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:19.599
Fix this.
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:22.480
So they come to us in a panic saying, could you have the reusables?
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:23.680
And we're like, yeah, yeah, we got you.
00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:24.400
It's cool.
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:28.160
And uh, and that can that has always been the case.
00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:34.240
And it the remember when I told you about um when uh that advisor said start small so you can start fast.
00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:34.720
Yeah.
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:40.799
Well, how we did that is we threw up a quick um takeaway and delivery site.
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:52.880
We recruited a couple of caterers and we got in some customers and we said, hey, you know, order food, but we're we're gonna serve it to you in reusables, but we're not gonna tell you what the container type's gonna be like.
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:54.400
And then we want to get your feedback.
00:30:54.559 --> 00:31:01.759
So sometimes they would get silicone or they get glass or they get aluminum, and because the product or the service was about reusables, right?
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:03.759
And so it was doing really well.
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:10.000
And we got lots and lots of orders right away, and we got the data that we needed so quickly that we were able to shut the site down.
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:12.000
And the people were really disappointed.
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:14.880
They were like, Well, we all you're shutting it down, or we really love this.
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:21.359
Like, yes, but you know, everybody tells you as a startup, you have to stay focused, or we've got our roadmap, and we're gonna start with the reusables first.
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:38.640
And looking back on it now, we didn't, we were, we just didn't have the confidence to see what was right before us that all of the things that people thought were gonna be complicated or complex, or that customers are lazy and never gonna return the reusables, like none of that happened.
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:41.440
And that's really where the Amazon experience comes in.
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:50.319
Every single time we've put a hypothesis around customer behavior, we've always been like 180 degrees wrong, which is so delightful and such a relief.
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:53.599
Like, ooh, I'm so glad we're testing this, we're prototyping this.
00:31:53.839 --> 00:32:00.480
But in that instant, we weren't able to see like the thing we thought was the hardest was actually the easiest.
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:02.319
It was right there in front of us.
00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:03.519
And that was another thing.
00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:11.519
So when we shut that down, the caterers were actually much more reticent to switch to reuse until they're in a panic situation.
00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:19.359
They had no desire to switch to reuse until they're threatening to you know have their business potentially lost from frustrated customers.
00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:21.759
And that's still continuing to be the case.
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:31.920
And so I always think to myself, if we would have just recognized that that was a pretty frictionless opportunity or experience, what were where would we be right now?
00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:36.240
I know where we'd be, we'd be where I think we're gonna be five years from now.
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:37.200
We would be there now.
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:39.839
I would probably be like acquired at this point.
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:46.160
So if I ever started another startup after that, after this, if this ever happens again, I'll be able to catch it.
00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:48.160
Our customer's always been the consumer.
00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:54.960
The consumer is so ready for getting rid of waste, they're so used for the connecting to their communities through food.
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:59.599
But the bottleneck is the caterer in the restaurant for very good reasons, by the way.
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:01.519
But um, that one hurts.
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:04.000
That one really hurts, but it's it's okay.
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:08.319
Well, the business sounds sound, I mean, the business sounds very interesting, to be honest.
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:11.519
You know, and obviously you have a pitch deck and you have all the different things.
00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:14.799
You you understand the whole startup world, everything it sounds like.
00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:24.079
If you got a chance to, let's say, let's hope that this is uh being listened to potentially some of your investors, what would be your pitch to them?
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:24.880
And how much?
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:26.720
How much would you want today?
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:32.400
Well, we're looking for again a modest amount by American standards, an enormous amount by European standards.
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:34.240
We're looking at three million.
00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:40.160
Um, it would still be something that looks like a bridge or you know, seed two, three.
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:41.680
It's not quite VC.
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:43.839
We would probably do it still with safe.
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:51.839
Um, but in exchange for that, we're very comfortable and receiving that funding in tranches based on hitting um revenue milestones.
00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:59.359
So we just need that because again, like while we've kept the team really small, we do need to bring on a business development manager.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:04.079
This is somebody actually, she's from Texas and she's American and she's an absolute powerhouse.
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:07.599
We need to put her on salary and really, really get this going.
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:14.400
And then we've actually also just developed our own tech that's um image recognition technology.
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:16.800
So a little bit of AI and AI light in there.
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:19.519
Um, that's how we process and track our containers.
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:21.920
Everybody else uses RFID and QR codes.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:23.440
Ours is much more robust.
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:29.119
So we need to put some money into proliferating um the hardware aspect of that.
00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:31.760
And then, yeah, the marketing and telling the story.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:34.480
So at this point, we're just so we're at the gate.
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:41.599
Like, you know, the model is ready, the restaurants are ready, the customers are ready, the tech's been built, we're ready to go.
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:43.840
We just, it's just that typical story.
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:49.679
We just need the growth, we need to keep the lights on, and we'd be on track within like 18 months.
00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:51.519
We think we can bring in 10 million in revenue.
00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:53.440
But I want this to be a billion-dollar business.
00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:59.039
My goal is to take 50% market share um in three years in the Netherlands.
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:01.039
And no European can hear that.
00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:02.480
They think that's absurd.
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:11.599
It actually happened in the US because our former colleague, Chris Payne, was the CEO of DoorDash, and that's exactly what he did in the US market.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:16.960
And not by coincidence, his strategy is exactly the same as mine because we're cut from the same cloth.
00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:19.679
I didn't even have to like research how DoorDash did it.
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:22.320
I was like, oh yeah, it looks like they did the same thing we're planning on doing.
00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:23.679
Like it's all there.
00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:29.039
We just need to be able to keep the lights on while we get the wheels in motion.
00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:29.760
So yeah.
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:34.320
You you you hit on something that everybody's talking about these days, uh, AI.
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:37.440
How how how's that impacted you guys?
00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:47.760
There's kind of a big arms race out there right now with LLMs, and there's all kinds of other things that are going on, and people are, you know, evaluating the different things to incorporate in their organizations.
00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:51.599
But because you're a smaller team, I imagine you're using a bit of AI.
00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:54.800
Can you tell us a little bit uh about how you're leveraging it?
00:35:55.280 --> 00:36:01.360
So, on a personal level, I've always believed that technology is at its best when it enhances the human experience rather than replaces it.
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:04.800
So we are not a tech company, but we are we're tech adjacent.
00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:08.639
So we use tech that's built by incredible people.
00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:12.559
And luckily, my partner is a very high-level jack of all trades.
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:16.800
He's like, I could I can code this in lovable and then I can, you know, finish it off and do it at a hackathon.
00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:18.480
So he built the whole thing himself.
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:25.199
And then we think that there's a really beautiful opportunity for AI to enhance the customer experience.
00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:28.559
So we want people to find menu items rather than restaurants.
00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:30.960
I mean, you know what it's like with the big guys.
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:45.039
It's like it's basically browse and search for pizza sushi burgers, and nobody can really say, This is what I'm feeling, this is what I'm thinking, my blood sugar's crashing, this is the type of food I need, and have an engine that intelligently serves that up to you.
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:50.800
So that's like a no-brainer, but nobody's doing people have played around with that a little bit, but nobody's doing it correctly.
00:36:50.960 --> 00:37:03.199
Again, like I haven't worked, I haven't worked for Amazon years longer than the total amount of time that I did work there, but all the lessons that we learned there, as painful as it was to learn them, still sit with me every day.
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:05.679
Um, I still call on them every day.
00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:14.880
And just like again, that obsessive focus on the customer experience down to the tiniest little detail is what's going to make the difference for us.
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:27.199
And because the Netherlands, people here are so not accustomed to exceptional customer experience, they're they're used to very horrible customer experience that like it's not even that hard to like delight them.
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:39.280
It's just this big giant opportunity just waiting for us here and to really revolutionize Dutch culture here in terms of sort of elevating the standard of excellence through Zeti.
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:41.280
So that's the AI story.
00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:50.880
And also, this is another thing, Brandon, as a female founder, there's plenty of VCs out there that support women in deep tech or AI.
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:56.880
But I also feel like that's once again like forcing women to try and compensate a deficit in STEM.
00:37:57.039 --> 00:38:01.920
And while that is important, it's also not something that we created from the beginning.
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:06.719
And when you look over to like sustainability, that's where women are really leading the way.
00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:14.639
Yet what happens is when you tell someone, oh yeah, I'm a female founder, they go, Oh, let me guess your impact, your sustainability, and there's almost this eye roll.
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:19.679
So again, the default is just this like this dismissiveness, this bias.
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:25.920
And so that's another opportunity of funding that we're shut out of because we're not a deep tech company.
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:38.880
We're just like a smart, sound, deeply profitable, responsible, environmentally correct, customer-delighting company that's good for society, good for the planet, good for people, good for the food.
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:40.800
We're building something really beautiful.
00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:46.079
And uh it just doesn't fit very easily into these predetermined silos.
00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:47.679
So that's that's another barrier.
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:57.599
You you were speaking about uh Amazon and your learnings, and I want to hit that here in a second, but I want to extend what you just said a little bit more before we hit the Amazon learnings.
00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:07.119
If if you could change the entire ecosystem, you know, where it does support women, what are some of the top things you think need to change?
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:17.280
Like, you know, obviously the the money flow needs to change, but I mean, it because you also mentioned it's not easy to change the mentality of all these men, right?
00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:19.920
Because they're they're used to what they're used to.
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:33.760
And I would even argue there's another component that I won't even talk about on this podcast, but I will tell you in private what's actually happening underneath the seams because they won't admit it and they can't admit it because it's too controversial.
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:41.280
Um well now everybody's gonna want to know what you're leave it to the next episode with Matt.
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:45.360
Uh no, but we'll put it behind the paywall on your sub stack if they want to know.
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:49.119
But I will give you I'll give you a hint.
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:53.679
It it rolls around three letters that we all know.
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:56.000
It's at the start with S and end in X?
00:39:56.239 --> 00:39:57.039
Yeah, maybe.
00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:10.960
Um, and Maslow would tell you years ago when he decided to create the hierarchy of needs, it was probably at the base, you know, and it's something that unfortunately men in general they don't get too rational about it until later in life.
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:13.039
And even at that point, they're still not rational.
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:15.360
Um, and so I I don't know.
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:16.880
What makes the world go around?
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:23.920
And so to punish men for that, or to or or to be angry at men for being men doesn't get us anywhere.
00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:27.840
This is another thing that we're facing a lot, something that's analogous.
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:36.639
There in my world, there's a debate between who's responsible for litter, the individual who throws it on the ground, or you know, the company like Red Bull that makes it in the first place.
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:39.599
For me, it's like, look, we have to be practical.
00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:40.800
This is a very Dutch thing.
00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:47.920
If if relying on hundreds of millions of individuals to do the right thing every day works, it would have already worked.
00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:51.920
So you can judge them, you can call people lazy, you can say that people don't care.
00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:56.079
Even if that's true, admitting, saying it doesn't get us anywhere.
00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:57.119
You have to be practical.
00:40:58.320 --> 00:40:59.920
The only solution is upstream.
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:06.239
And it's the same thing with these basic nature of human beings.
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:16.400
And you know, something else that's been really beautiful for me is that when I am in a room that's just women, um, it's so lovely.
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:19.920
The the energy is completely different.
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:30.320
And again, it's not that we don't love men, or it's not that, like, you know, if a man walks into the room, then the energy kind of changes a little bit, but we we need that space for ourselves and we need for everyone to say, okay, we get it.
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:32.239
You know, the guys always have their 5 a.m.
00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:37.760
basketball games at at Amazon, but like we need our space to please let us have it.
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:43.679
Like, just give us the time to build to let us be in an environment that feels great for us too.
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:47.199
And and I think that that kind of touches on what you're saying.
00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:55.599
Um, man, there's a whole other thing that we can talk about there about the entrepreneur scene that I've seen happening in the Middle East, but um, maybe that's for another part.
00:41:56.559 --> 00:41:59.840
Um but we have we just need our own culture, you know.
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:01.519
We need our girls' club too.
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:09.039
So so, but you did touch on Amazon learnings because we did things at Amazon or that that helped it become what it is today.
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:14.800
Um, any other learnings that you would say you apply to your business today from Amazon that's actually been effective?
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:22.880
Yeah, and I think this goes back to what you were saying about if we had to like switch the whole ecosystem, like how would we do it?
00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:26.000
I mean, for me, it is all about the money.
00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:30.000
It's not like there isn't enough, it's just how it just distributed.
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:35.760
Just give women the money and give us years to turn our businesses into something amazing.
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:40.239
Like, just it it's just such an easy, painless thing to do.
00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:46.639
Like, what if Jeff Bezos just gave a billion dollars away to female entrepreneurs, like like his wife, his ex-wife is doing?
00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:51.599
You know, that just having that capital fixes a lot of problems, a lot of problems.
00:42:51.920 --> 00:43:21.199
But in terms of the Amazon experience, just especially in those early days where we were just allowed to do anything at any expense for the customer, everybody knew that that wasn't gonna last forever, but just being able to, again, it's about that empathetic, sympathetic experience, being able to receive the pleasure of delighting customers or delighting our partners is something that I'm always chasing.
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:36.880
The one thing I would also think about is that this was like the biggest difference between Amazon and Microsoft, at least in the Netherlands, is that Amazon, at least in those days, I don't know what it's like now, I think really treated employees as a liability.
00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:40.719
Microsoft really treated treats customer or employees like an asset.
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:48.239
And I really think that Amazon could have achieved everything that it achieved if it, but also didn't have to go as fast as it did.
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:50.719
For me, it came at a really personal cost.
00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:54.800
I did have a burnout, um, completely doubting my self-worth.
00:43:54.880 --> 00:44:01.360
Like, you know, you it's just one of those things where it's like, it's not that you you're suffering, it's like, oh, you're just becoming incompetent.
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:03.840
And that's that's something that still sticks with me.
00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:08.639
I'm like, oh my God, but you're failing, you're failing, you're incompetent, you don't know what you're doing, you're too old, you don't have the energy.
00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:10.400
I'm like, no, no, you're just you're just tired.
00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:11.920
You didn't, did you eat anything today?
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:12.639
Did you get up?
00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:13.519
Did you drink anything?
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:15.039
No, you're just dehydrated.
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:18.960
But that's that like kind of self-care compassion isn't the default.
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:21.679
The default is like, work, right, push through it, you know.
00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:28.079
And I'm not, yeah, that's something that um that's something that was required at Amazon.
00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:35.360
And um, it it was thrilling, but I don't think anybody in this day and age is gonna be seduced by golden handcuffs.
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:36.400
At least I hope not.
00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:38.239
You know, it's your one life.
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:39.599
So yeah, 100%.
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:52.079
When I joined, I think it was 2001, um, we were at what$12 a share at the time, and you know, we got all a thousand shares if we started at the standard level of employee.
00:44:52.559 --> 00:45:02.880
We thought eBay was the the big you know dog in the house or whatever, and we we were scared, and you know, he brought up Target, and I remember Nordstrom and a few other relationships at the time.
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:16.960
One thing that I I remember very specifically was when I stood up to him in a corporate meeting and I asked him, Why are you not paying us as much as um our our you know competitors across the street at Spedia or Microsoft or whatever the case may be, and he laughed at me.
00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:24.239
He laughed at me and and he actually um said, you know, like you got stock options.
00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:25.840
Um, what are you complaining about?
00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:34.880
And you know, I I I referenced his sons because I I just had my twin boys at the time, and I was just like, you know, it's not easy making sixty thousand dollars.
00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:44.719
I mean, you know, family of four on sixty thousand dollars on the assumption that this these stock options will will will cash out at some point, which it did, you know, it just took 12 years, probably or more.
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:49.920
And and uh the good news is we had a really good second in charge in HR.
00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:54.239
She stopped me right outside the door and she goes, I'm really sorry for what Jeff said.
00:45:54.400 --> 00:46:03.599
Um could you start yeah, and and she said, Could you start a committee with Alyssa Black and a few other folks that were, you know, who were somewhat progressive in the company?
00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:14.639
Um, and we met, you know, regularly to to see if we could change the thing, you know, like donate to United Way, you know, improve the image or whatever it is, uh, but also you know, do some social good.
00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:18.400
But they denied every single thing we we asked for.
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:27.199
I tell you this story because of the fact that when I went to Expedia, we were meeting for the sake of meetings.
00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:28.880
We had no purpose.
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:29.920
That's terrible.
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:32.719
Yeah, we had the opposite problem, right?
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:38.960
And so I don't know what the what the best uh uh environment is, but it can be bad on both sides, right?
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:44.559
And I I don't know all the things that I took away from Amazon, but I just know it had good people.
00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:48.639
I do remember all the recruiters that I worked with, they were amazing.
00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:58.159
We we had some amazing recruiters in Amazon, and that and that's maybe one thing that I would say uh uh Amazon gave us, but they've gone on to do pretty good things.
00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:03.679
Uh Janine and uh um I can't remember all of them, but uh just just wonderful people.
00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:16.639
But you know, as I kind of tell you some of this, um, if any other things resonate or any any other things you remember besides Yeah, I mean one one thing that came out of that was um who are your stakeholders, who are your customers.
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:29.440
And so I I knew pretty early on that I was never gonna, if I was ever, I'm getting a bit out of myself here considering we're struggling to put three million euros together, but if we were to ever be in an opportunity where we could IPO, I would never do it.
00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:35.440
Like that my strategy is to be acquired by a company that I believe in if as an exit, if we exit.
00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:54.719
Um, because I just I just never want to be in that position where I have to sacrifice any of my or compromise any of the things that made the company great in order to, you know, have to um justify the stock price to who are now the people that literally own my company.
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:59.199
Um and that's again like that that's something that I took away from Amazon.
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:02.559
That was a really easy decision to make from the very beginning.
00:48:02.960 --> 00:48:03.840
Um, yeah.
00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:05.840
So that makes sense.
00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:09.760
Yeah, well, and we never have meetings, like this is like part of our corporate culture.
00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:16.159
I'm like, everybody's gotten so afraid of picking up the phone and just talking that I make my I'm like, do not send me a text.
00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:23.599
You you can send me a voice message, but just just do not send me an a meeting invitation where you just need to talk to me on the phone.
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:24.400
Just call me.
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:27.280
And if I'm not available, I'll call you back, just like we used to.
00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:29.039
It's so much easier that way.
00:48:29.199 --> 00:48:30.000
It's ridiculous.
00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:31.119
I don't know what happened to us.
00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:32.480
We stopped doing that.
00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:34.800
That's a great tip, actually.
00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:37.199
Yeah, just pick up the phone, call me.
00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:38.159
Two seconds.
00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:43.920
We always end this podcast with three questions, if you don't mind.
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:48.559
And and because we're kind of at that hour, I just want to make sure we we respect your time.
00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:53.519
So the first of the three questions is who is your hero?
00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:55.360
I've got two.
00:48:55.840 --> 00:49:06.559
And they both could not be more cliche, but of course, the first one is my mother, um, who's just like a small town little farm girl who was just born looking up and out, like I'm gonna get out.
00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:10.159
And you know, she traveled Europe and she lives here with us now.
00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:19.440
And I and I got that from her, and um my whole entire existence, well, my lifestyle wouldn't have been possible without her sort of showing me the way.
00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:29.360
But then my other heroes are actually my angel investors, because when somebody says yes to you, you're crazy when all you have is an idea.
00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:32.800
I just think that's like such an act of bravery.
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:42.480
And I just feel such tremendous commitment and gratitude toward them that um that was just like the first thing that came to mind when I was thinking about who my heroes are.
00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:48.960
They would definitely like be like, that you're being so lame and dorky right now, but that's how I feel about them.
00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:52.480
Um, yeah, so those would be my heroes.
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:54.800
Those are those are great answers, by the way.
00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:55.199
Yeah.
00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:59.599
Um, the next one's kind of related, but at the same time a little bit different, I would say.
00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:04.880
Um, we we still like to ask this question, but who are good role models for society today?
00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:07.920
Because obviously we got some really interesting things going on.
00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:11.760
All right, this is gonna be a very unpopular answer.
00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:31.199
I am going to say that my role model is Chat GPT because I have been experimenting with ChatGPT in the form of a therapist or um a CFO, and of course, it's never perfect, and you have to catch it for that.
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:35.519
For my optometrist has been replaced by Chat GPT.
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:47.599
That again, the reason I'm giving you that unconventional answer is because it makes it accelerates the best aspects of my own personality.
00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:53.119
And so, yes, that's my incredibly left of center answer for that.
00:50:53.280 --> 00:51:01.760
But if we don't screw this up, if we don't screw AI up and make it evil, it could be amazing for us.
00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:08.559
So I'm going to be optimistic, and that's why I'm going to say that AI agents are my role model.
00:51:08.719 --> 00:51:16.559
I'm holding them up on a pedestal that they they now have to feel morally responsible to staying there and being the world.
00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:24.320
Well, well, timing-wise, you couldn't have talked about it in a uh a better uh part of history because I think they just upgraded to 5.0.
00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:27.119
Um, so and I've seen some of the benchmarks.
00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:31.360
Um, it looks like it's kicking Claude's butt now, and along with uh there's a it is.
00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:39.760
I I go back and forth, like some, you know, some months Claude seems to be better, some Chat GPT, I think ChatGPT is a little bit better than Claude, a little bit more accurate right now.
00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:43.039
So, but yeah, I'm I'm a bit agnostic to the actual platform.
00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:43.840
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:44.079 --> 00:52:02.320
Well, what will be really interesting is the long term because of all the um gamesmanship behind the scenes with Zuckerberg trying to hire all the top talent and and open AI still trying to retain and and and the money that's being thrown around to to these people and and whether or not the money's what's gonna motivate them all.
00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:06.559
Um anyway, it's it's a it's a yeah, in my opinion, it's an exciting time.
00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:09.440
It's it's crazy, but but it's it's exciting for me.
00:52:09.519 --> 00:52:10.239
But no, thank you.
00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:22.880
That's a very it is very like I don't you guys like there's the the the bias is already being built into you, so I'm speaking to you as this is a almost sentient thing, like you're my role model, like don't don't do the wrong thing.
00:52:23.039 --> 00:52:23.840
Come on.
00:52:25.519 --> 00:52:30.000
Well, my mom tells me all the time, trust chat GPT.
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:34.880
She she literally says, trust chat, she says believe in it or something along those lines.
00:52:34.960 --> 00:52:35.920
And I'm just like, what?
00:52:36.239 --> 00:52:43.519
You know, you were telling me to to believe in God uh multiple times this past week, and now you want me to also believe in chat GPT.
00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:47.119
So um, yeah, I have a I have a very interesting mom.
00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:48.000
I think you like her.
00:52:48.079 --> 00:52:49.360
She's kind of like your mom as well.
00:52:49.440 --> 00:52:52.000
If she knew about the Netherlands, she'd be there to join you.
00:52:52.239 --> 00:52:53.440
Um, you know, you and your mom.
00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:55.039
Yeah, open invitation.
00:52:56.239 --> 00:52:57.039
Thank you, thank you.
00:52:57.199 --> 00:52:59.039
All right, this last question is pretty easy.
00:52:59.119 --> 00:53:01.119
Uh uh, what's your favorite food?
00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:02.639
Where's your go-to?
00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:04.079
Ice cream.
00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:05.679
That one's so easy for me.
00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:10.159
I've never eaten a quantity of ice cream where I didn't want to eat any more ice cream.
00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:13.039
So I just I love everything about it.
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:15.280
The coldness, the texture, the multiple flavors.
00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:17.679
Like it's just my absolute favorite food.
00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:21.360
My favorite, favorite ice cream of all the ice creams is mint chocolate chip.
00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:25.039
And and what's your favorite brand or brands out there?
00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:26.480
I I make my own.
00:53:26.719 --> 00:53:30.639
So in my Quison Art Ice Cream Maker, yeah, second to none.
00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:31.760
Oh, interesting.
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:32.719
Okay, yeah.
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:41.440
Um, if you get to listen to episode two, uh Kevin Henriksen, um, he has this device, he said, I think it's a ninja something or another, but I can't remember.
00:53:41.599 --> 00:53:48.320
But it creates, I think, a form of ice cream or some kind of cream uh uh of you know, mixed items.
00:53:48.400 --> 00:53:52.960
It doesn't necessarily have to be the typical ice cream flavors, but he he says that's his favorite thing as well.
00:53:53.039 --> 00:53:58.480
And he he has multiple at his multiple houses because he was head of uh engineering at Instacart.
00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:05.519
He was uh responsible for the uh startup that uh uh Microsoft bought to convert to Outlook and he was building the Outlook team.
00:54:05.599 --> 00:54:08.000
So he's had a few nice exits and stuff like that.
00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:09.199
But yeah, he talks about that.
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:11.920
So it's interesting that you both talk about this ice cream.
00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:13.280
I can talk about ice cream.
00:54:13.599 --> 00:54:14.639
What's your favorite food?
00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:15.280
Me?
00:54:15.519 --> 00:54:16.880
Um, I'll be honest.
00:54:16.960 --> 00:54:20.639
Uh it it it goes, it changes all the time, but lately it's been pho.
00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:23.519
So I was just gonna say that too.
00:54:23.679 --> 00:54:33.039
Just like the most that would be like for a savory because it's all about the unadulterated flavor of the ingredient.
00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:38.639
That's what faux is so so the beautiful cilantro, the beautiful beef, the beautiful broth.
00:54:38.719 --> 00:54:50.480
It's not like you're mixing something into some you know, complicated sauce, it's just about the combination of plucking something off the garden, putting it into the bowl, and it's just so delicious.
00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:52.239
Yeah, I'm right there with you.
00:54:52.559 --> 00:54:53.280
It's amazing.
00:54:53.360 --> 00:54:58.079
So whenever I go anywhere, it's like one of the first type of restaurants I always look for, no matter where it is.
00:54:58.159 --> 00:55:06.719
And and fortunately, it the Vietnamese have have have popped them up everywhere, but um, there are places in this world, unfortunately, it's not as good.
00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:09.280
And and uh it saddens me.
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:11.039
It really does sadden me.
00:55:11.199 --> 00:55:13.440
So I wish there was more, but anyway.
00:55:13.679 --> 00:55:17.039
Well, Ben, this this was this was really a wonderful conversation.
00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:19.119
Uh and I'm so pleased.
00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:21.840
I'm I'm very thankful that you joined us today.
00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:33.599
And honestly, I I swear to god, I'm gonna follow up with you on not only Ozarka, but also uh learning more about you know, not not uh or we need money, not not friends.
00:55:33.760 --> 00:55:36.400
Um because I would love to help you with that.
00:55:36.559 --> 00:55:41.760
But um, but to finish off, one thing we do uh last is is how do people reach out to you?
00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:47.280
Um so when we we find the right person who's gonna give you those three million euros, um, how are they gonna reach out to you?
00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:54.880
And uh, you know, and if you're interested in doing more podcast interviews, yeah, where where's the best place to reach reach you?
00:55:55.360 --> 00:55:57.119
It's Beth Massa on LinkedIn.
00:55:57.280 --> 00:56:02.079
Um, you know, I'm quite an active voice on LinkedIn, Beth at Ozarka.biz.
00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:03.199
That's B-I-Z.
00:56:03.440 --> 00:56:10.000
Um, but I think the easiest thing to remember is just to look me up on LinkedIn, send me a little message, and um and uh I'll respond.
00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:10.639
Okay.
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:17.039
Well, I I I do have a small question on this because Kevin was saying he has somewhere around 150 inbounds a day.
00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:21.199
And so um, and then we get all this spam on LinkedIn, unfortunately.
00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:27.440
Um, is there is there a thing that you look for when you look at these 12 different messages where seven of them are like spam?
00:56:28.960 --> 00:56:31.360
Yeah, like yes, yes.
00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:39.840
I can tell what it's like, some you know, bot disguising itself as like an Eastern European IT stat backend stack developer that's trying to sell me services.
00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:43.280
That's that's what all the spam is, and then the real stuff is really obvious.
00:56:43.519 --> 00:56:47.599
So yeah, it's it's definitely interesting.
00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:49.119
All right, well, thank you, Beth.
00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:54.239
Um, we we really had a great time, so appreciate you spending some time with us today.
00:56:54.559 --> 00:56:55.440
Thanks, Brandon.
00:56:55.760 --> 00:56:59.760
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