The Greatest Intelligence Deception of WWII: Helen Fry on How Britain Bugged Hitler's Generals and Won the War from the Inside

WEBVTT
1
00:00:04.120 --> 00:00:09.679
Welcome to Spycraft, a podcast that tells gripping life and
2
00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:13.960
death spy stories and the amazing devices and operations that
3
00:00:14.119 --> 00:00:17.160
made them possible. Now let's get started.
4
00:00:32.439 --> 00:00:35.799
Back everyone, Today, we have a great guest, doctor Helen Fries.
5
00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:38.119
She's read numerous books on the Second World War, with
6
00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:41.759
particular reference to the ten thousand Germans and Austrians who
7
00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:44.920
fought for Britain. With a portfolio of experiences of World
8
00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:49.079
War Two, historian, Helen undertakes consultancy work for documentary companies
9
00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:51.799
and as a consultant historian for location filming of World
10
00:00:51.799 --> 00:00:55.520
War Two scenes for TV channels including BBC, ITV and
11
00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:58.759
Channel four. She's also been engaged in a range of
12
00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:03.000
writer whiter projects, including the for school's curriculum and adult
13
00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:05.519
education related to World War One, World War Two, and
14
00:01:05.599 --> 00:01:08.840
the Cold War. She's an honorary member of the Association
15
00:01:08.920 --> 00:01:12.760
of Jewish Refugees and associate editor for I Spy Magazine.
16
00:01:12.959 --> 00:01:16.280
She's also an ambassador for the Museum of Military Intelligence
17
00:01:16.280 --> 00:01:19.159
and president of the Friends of the National Archives. But
18
00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:21.640
we're not going to be talking about any of that today. Actually,
19
00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:24.120
we're gonna be talking about two of her books. For
20
00:01:24.239 --> 00:01:25.159
more recent books.
21
00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:27.560
One of them is called right Get Right Here, The
22
00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:32.439
Walls have ears. It's the General. Nope, not the General.
23
00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:36.239
It's the Greatest Intelligence Operation of World War Two. So
24
00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:39.560
again the Walls have years. The Greatest Intelligence Operation of
25
00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:41.519
World War Two is one book we're going to be discussing,
26
00:01:41.560 --> 00:01:44.120
and the other one is m I nine. So we're
27
00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:46.640
going to be looking at these books together and talking
28
00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:49.200
about them. Before we get started, make sure to share, subscribe,
29
00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:51.280
and hit that like button that's always any more time.
30
00:01:51.159 --> 00:01:53.879
Walking to the show, Doctor Frye. Welcome, Doctor Frye.
31
00:01:54.599 --> 00:01:56.519
Thank you, it's great to be with you today.
32
00:01:57.079 --> 00:01:59.760
Thank you very much for doing this. We truly appreciate it.
33
00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:02.319
So the problem.
34
00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:05.359
The first thing I wanted to do is what got
35
00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:07.000
you into World War Two history?
36
00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:11.919
Oh, I've always been interested in history, and I think
37
00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:16.319
the inspiration, as for many people, often comes from a teacher.
38
00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:19.039
And there was a very particular teacher when I was
39
00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:23.120
a teenager who was inspirational. In fact, his period of
40
00:02:23.639 --> 00:02:26.560
expertise was not actually the Second World War. But I've
41
00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:30.719
always loved history, and I got into this subject because
42
00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:35.520
I was looking at the ten thousand Germans, mainly Jewish,
43
00:02:35.960 --> 00:02:38.439
who fought for Britain in the Second World War, and
44
00:02:38.439 --> 00:02:41.639
of course there's an equivalent story in America of around
45
00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:46.439
fourteen thousand German Jews who fought with the American forces.
46
00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:51.680
So very quickly you soon realize the knowledge of language.
47
00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:56.680
They're taken into intelligence work stuff behind enemy lines. And
48
00:02:56.759 --> 00:02:59.919
once I got into this, I got hooked, completely hooked.
49
00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:03.000
So it was quite accidental in many ways.
50
00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:05.360
Yeah, the world of the ESPNI is kind of addicting,
51
00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:07.919
isn't it.
52
00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:11.960
It's detective work. It's kind of trying to see if
53
00:03:11.960 --> 00:03:15.199
you can solve the mysteries, which, of course his stories
54
00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:17.120
have been trying to solve for decades.
55
00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:19.159
Folks.
56
00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:20.840
I did forget to mention on her new book at
57
00:03:20.919 --> 00:03:23.000
m I nine. It's a history of the Secret Service
58
00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:25.919
for escape and Evasion in World War Two. I was
59
00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:29.000
having a little bit of a difficulty reading what I
60
00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:29.759
was saying there.
61
00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:32.960
So doctor Fryar, I guess your first book, The Walls
62
00:03:33.080 --> 00:03:35.159
Have Ears? What is this all about?
63
00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:41.000
Yeah, so this is a top secret a bugging operation
64
00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:45.000
during the Second World War. Many of your listeners will
65
00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:47.400
probably have heard of the work of the codebreakers at
66
00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:51.199
Bletchley Park, but of course it's not just the cracking
67
00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:54.599
of the Enigma codes. I suppose today what goes over
68
00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:59.240
the internet. To give a contemporary analysis or analogy, we
69
00:03:59.319 --> 00:04:03.560
also need to human intelligence and the British Intelligence Service
70
00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:08.879
later working with American intelligence after Pearl Harbor believed that
71
00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:12.719
one of your most important sources of intelligence are your
72
00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:16.800
prisoners of war. Yeah, you're Germans and Italians as well,
73
00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:19.560
But how do you get the information out of them?
74
00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:23.319
You can't rough them up in interrogation. Doesn't give you
75
00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:28.240
anything particularly useful or reliable. How do you know it's reliable.
76
00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:33.879
It's against the Geneva convention. So the commanding officer of
77
00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:38.120
this particular unit, Thomas Joseph Kendrick, who is whose father
78
00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:44.759
was American. Anyway, he was far cleverer and devised a
79
00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:51.639
whole unit that would inadvertently or surreptitiously bug the conversations
80
00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:55.800
of German prisoners of war. So, just to say briefly,
81
00:04:56.319 --> 00:05:00.360
they would have a sort of phony interrogation, and they
82
00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:04.319
thought their war was over. They'd go back to their room,
83
00:05:04.839 --> 00:05:08.759
chat to their cellmate and brag about what they hadn't
84
00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:11.839
told the interrogating officer. And they thought they were so
85
00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:15.199
smart and so clever, but of course there were microphones
86
00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:20.800
hidden in the light fittings and sometimes in the fireplaces.
87
00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:27.920
Oh man, so Huber's got the best of them. Why now, Kendrick,
88
00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:31.079
what was his position again? He using the military or
89
00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:32.399
was he an intelligence?
90
00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:36.000
Yes? He was. He was a commanding officer of the
91
00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:41.079
whole unit and established this from scratch. He'd already spent
92
00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:47.120
nearly thirty years working in British intelligence from Boa War
93
00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:50.560
South Africa nineteen oh one he was just twenty one
94
00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:54.480
years old, and all the way through the First World
95
00:05:54.519 --> 00:05:58.279
War in France in intelligence, and then in the nineteen
96
00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:02.560
twenties and thirties he's working for what today we call
97
00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:09.160
MI six in Vienna running spy networks. He's expelled by
98
00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:13.439
the Gestapo by the German authorities for allegedly spying, which
99
00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:18.600
of course he denies, and he's back in London in
100
00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:22.360
the summer of nineteen thirty eight, and that's when he
101
00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:28.120
starts preparing this unit that will springing to action at
102
00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:30.199
the outbreak of war whenever that's going to happen. And
103
00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:31.560
of course we now know it was the third of
104
00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:35.839
September nineteen thirty nine that Britain was at war with
105
00:06:36.279 --> 00:06:40.720
Nazi Germany and his unit, he might probably want to
106
00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:43.439
talk about this, but his unit went on to mask
107
00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:49.079
the most incredible volume upon volumes of information and intelligence
108
00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:52.879
that actually turned the tide of the war, alongside the
109
00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:54.360
code breaking of Bletchley Park.
110
00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:59.319
Yeah, I know in your book you mentioned I forget
111
00:06:59.319 --> 00:06:59.680
what it was.
112
00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:01.879
It was like these these homes they were trained into
113
00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:05.519
prisons or something and Trent Park and they were Yeah,
114
00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:06.480
on the interrogation.
115
00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:08.199
Is that part of what you were talking about earlier?
116
00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:09.199
Is that a separate entity?
117
00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:12.480
No, this is part of it. And I suppose I'm
118
00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:16.120
personally am reluctant to use the word prison, and the
119
00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:21.120
word prison is never used in the intelligence files have
120
00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:26.279
been declassified. Trent Park in North London, right there at
121
00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:29.160
the end of the Piccadilly Line. Could all look on
122
00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:33.560
your map of the underground of London. It was sort
123
00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:38.639
of known as Special Quarters and from nineteen forty two
124
00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:44.079
this was where Kendrick held Hitler's captured generals who started
125
00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:48.759
to come off battlefields North Africa. Of course, by May
126
00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:52.079
nineteen forty three and that had collapsed, and then after
127
00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:58.480
Sicily Italy, after D Day, all Hitler's top commanders his generals,
128
00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:02.879
Field marshals. They all end up in this house, and
129
00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:07.040
Kendrick has two other houses just outside London called Latham
130
00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:10.680
House and Wilson Park, so it's deep in the countryside,
131
00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:15.439
away from prying eyes. Nobody knows what's going on at
132
00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:16.560
these secret sites.
133
00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:20.759
Ominous. That sounds quite ominous.
134
00:08:21.079 --> 00:08:22.839
And I know we're going to get into a little
135
00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:26.600
bit more of the interrogation aspect is in your book.
136
00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:29.480
It's almost like you're kind of guiding.
137
00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:32.919
Us to this evolution of interrogation by Kendrick, like almost
138
00:08:32.919 --> 00:08:35.759
how I developed an intelligence and how it improved?
139
00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:37.000
Am I how far off on that?
140
00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:43.080
Yeah? I mean he's already a pretty skilled person by
141
00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:48.600
the time he opens this unit because he understands human psychology.
142
00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:55.840
He's good actually at enabling personnel in the air, minustry, Army,
143
00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:01.120
naval intelligence, all these kind of rivalries between the departments.
144
00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:06.039
He's the ideal man to set aside those egotistic infighting,
145
00:09:06.120 --> 00:09:09.480
which has been a problem for intelligence before. But not
146
00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:13.440
only that, he very rapidly ramps up this unit. He
147
00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:16.120
starts in a very small way in the Tower of London.
148
00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:22.240
Tower of London are iconic tourist attraction. Today, that's September
149
00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:24.440
nineteen thirty nine, and just within a few months he's
150
00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:27.840
got his eye on needing a proper big place outside London,
151
00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:31.399
and that's when he requisitions Trent Park and increases his
152
00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:34.480
staff from just six, just six of them when they started,
153
00:09:34.519 --> 00:09:38.240
to over five hundred, and by five hundred by the
154
00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:41.039
middle of the war. He's got about a thousand intelligence
155
00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:46.399
personnel alongside American intelligence. So he's ramped it up and
156
00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:51.039
he goes on to listen well, his personnel listening to
157
00:09:51.159 --> 00:09:56.240
the conversations of over ten thousand Key prisoners of war,
158
00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:59.759
German prisoners of war. And as we've already said, those
159
00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:03.639
hop commanders Hitler's top commanders. And you know, nobody ever
160
00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:07.960
asks what happened to Hitler's generals when they were captured
161
00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:13.080
on the battlefields of Normandy. I did well. They ended
162
00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:16.159
up in his stately home, Trent Park, and there they
163
00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:19.519
were wined and dined, and they lived the life of
164
00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:25.120
relative luxury. And they didn't think or question why they
165
00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:28.200
were not in this and huts with barbed wire. They
166
00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:31.039
were in a beautiful, stately home, plenty of wine and whiskey.
167
00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:34.240
But of course, as you know, the Walls Have.
168
00:10:34.279 --> 00:10:38.720
E that's a big con game there.
169
00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:44.159
It's marvelous. Who would believe it?
170
00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:47.559
That's crazy stuff. Yeah, if you saw in a movie,
171
00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:49.720
if you pitched it as a movie, you probably say
172
00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:53.759
nobody would believe that story. You can't do that again, folks.
173
00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:55.639
The book is called The Walls Heavy Years, The Greatest
174
00:10:55.639 --> 00:10:58.679
Intelligence Operation of World War Two, by doctor Helen Fry.
175
00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:01.600
It's really a fascinating and something you don't usually read
176
00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:03.799
in the history books, that's for sure.
177
00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:06.600
Let me ask you doctor Fry, as you mentioned, he
178
00:11:06.679 --> 00:11:09.720
got a lot of access to Hitler's secrets. I guess
179
00:11:10.600 --> 00:11:12.799
anything that stood alfree as we were doing a research
180
00:11:12.840 --> 00:11:14.679
and he said, how could this be?
181
00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:17.240
Yeah?
182
00:11:17.320 --> 00:11:22.039
Absolutely, with the Walls Have Ears. One of the big
183
00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:25.440
pieces of intelligence they get on Hitler's secret weapons on
184
00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:28.279
the V one and the V two and even the
185
00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:30.440
V three towards the end of the war. And I'd
186
00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:33.799
never heard of a V three, So of course we
187
00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:37.480
had information coming out from behind enemy lines. We'd had
188
00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:43.039
bits and pieces about a possible secret weapon. But the
189
00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:48.559
penny finally drops when Hitler's generals at Trent Park and
190
00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:51.639
after the fall of Stalingrad. Of course, the Russian campaign
191
00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:55.639
was ended in defeat for the Germans after you know,
192
00:11:55.679 --> 00:11:59.120
they invaded in June forty one. But of course that
193
00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:04.000
whole campaign collapses and Stalin Grad finally falls in early
194
00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:07.480
nineteen forty three, and those generals that have already been
195
00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:10.039
captured are sat in the house. They've got delayed news
196
00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:13.720
that this has happened. One of them says, it's quite humorous. Really,
197
00:12:14.039 --> 00:12:17.000
he says, I wish I'd shot myself and they captured,
198
00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:22.679
so you've got everyday life and conversations which can be
199
00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:26.440
really fascinating. But one of them says they're thoroughly depressed
200
00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:28.440
and gloomy. And one of them says, that's it, We've
201
00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:32.039
lost the war. And actually it's General foun Toma who
202
00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:36.279
is captured in North Africa brought to Trent. Parker says, no,
203
00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:38.440
we haven't. We've got the secret weapon that is going
204
00:12:38.519 --> 00:12:41.559
to turn the tide of the war. And now we
205
00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:44.720
take this intelligence seriously. And in my book I trace
206
00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:50.200
from these bugged conversations about the secret weapon. They mentioned
207
00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:53.480
Penny Munda, where Hitler's developing it on the North German coast,
208
00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.080
and there is now a directly you can see it
209
00:12:56.120 --> 00:13:00.559
in the files between that and Churchill ordering the bombing
210
00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:05.080
of Pinnimunda in August nineteen forty three. And I've done
211
00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:09.039
some more analysis for my next book about Kendrick actually Spymaster,
212
00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:14.000
and you begin to realize that if we hadn't knocked
213
00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:17.240
out that site in August nineteen forty three, we actually
214
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:20.519
could have lost the war. We certainly couldn't have mounted
215
00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:23.480
the D Day landings. And in knocking out this site,
216
00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:25.120
I think it's just the final thing I would say
217
00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:29.080
on this point, unless you have other questions, that it
218
00:13:29.159 --> 00:13:32.480
was knocked out in August forty three. But the first
219
00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:37.320
V one, that massive super weapon, did not land on
220
00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:40.600
London until a week after D Day June forty four.
221
00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:44.759
That's nine months. And my question to the audience is
222
00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:48.240
to think, what if we hadn't discovered this in time?
223
00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:53.639
And it is now recognized that without this intelligence we
224
00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:56.559
Germany could have won the tech war, and that's true
225
00:13:56.559 --> 00:14:00.159
for the V one, V two, V three atomic bomb program.
226
00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:02.360
We're picking up all of this stuff. When I say
227
00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:07.639
we the British intelligence services in close collaboration and working
228
00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:11.279
partnership with the American intelligence. So it's awesome stuff. This
229
00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:12.320
new research.
230
00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:16.240
Yeah, that's amazing stuff and stuff you don't see on
231
00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:17.480
the textbooks, that's for sure.
232
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:19.840
I guess that's kind of a goad.
233
00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:24.200
Yeah that I was going to say, actually you don't
234
00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:27.279
because it's still so very new. The files were only
235
00:14:27.639 --> 00:14:31.759
declassified about ten years ago, and it takes time. I
236
00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:35.879
mean I got to them just within quite accidentally, just
237
00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:40.159
within a few months that they've been declassified. And some
238
00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:43.039
of it's so dense, you know, the conversations are very
239
00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:46.039
technical in many cases that I think his stories, if
240
00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:48.639
they pull them up, would just send them back again. Think, oh,
241
00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:52.440
but you've got to persist. And the reason I persisted
242
00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:57.759
was because of what we call a secret listener, and
243
00:14:57.799 --> 00:15:01.559
these were German Jewish refugees who were taken up by
244
00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:05.279
Kendrick's unit to sit in what were known as m
245
00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:08.240
rooms with their headsets on, like we've got our headsets
246
00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:13.399
on now in the m rooms, recording the conversations at
247
00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:16.879
those three sites. And I promised him, you know, he
248
00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:20.840
said to me, Fritz Lostig sign the Official Secrets Act.
249
00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:23.159
At the end of the war we went into civilian life.
250
00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:26.960
Did we do anything that made any difference to the war,
251
00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:31.600
He said, I sat in the countryside for three years. Yeah, safe,
252
00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:35.360
I lost comrades on the battlefields. Did we do anything
253
00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:37.759
that made a difference. Nobody told us. They just thanked
254
00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:39.840
us at the end of the war. It was all
255
00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:43.799
hush hush. And now the files have been declassified. I
256
00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:45.799
promised him I would look at them and I would
257
00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:49.879
answer that question. And even I was staggered by the
258
00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:54.120
sheer volume of intelligence we were getting. We were getting
259
00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:58.559
it nowhere else than these sites. And it is true
260
00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:01.279
to say that with blatch Sheep and the code breaking,
261
00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:04.000
you know, without that, we couldn't have won the war.
262
00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:07.879
That's I know, it's a very brief assessment, but that's
263
00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:10.519
what I argue in the book, and I hope readers
264
00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:11.480
will be convinced.
265
00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:14.399
Again, Folks definitely recommend the book.
266
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:16.399
It's a fascinating read, and I'll definitely give you a
267
00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:19.360
different perspective of history. The Walls have ears the greatest
268
00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:21.440
intelligence operation of World War Two.
269
00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:25.399
And I guess I have a couple of questions, not necessarily.
270
00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:27.320
Directly about the book, but maybe a little bit a
271
00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:29.320
little bit about it and a little bit about process.
272
00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:31.879
I know, when I've spoken to other authors.
273
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:33.480
At least in the US, I've spoken to a few
274
00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:35.879
obviously in the UK as well, but when I've spoken
275
00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:38.960
to the US, it's complicated to get these files, these
276
00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:43.039
classified files or declassified files. They have to do a
277
00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:44.320
lot of work. At least they have to go to
278
00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:47.080
special places to go access them. How is it for
279
00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:49.159
you in the UK? Is it the same processes it
280
00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:50.360
take a lot of work to get them when they
281
00:16:50.360 --> 00:16:51.919
give you classified or is it simpler?
282
00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:58.320
No, it's the whole research process is a detective process.
283
00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:01.720
It's a journey and you never know when you start
284
00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:03.960
out how long it's going to take. You obviously have
285
00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:08.880
to scope what files have been declassified. We don't have
286
00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:14.720
access to classified files. Nobody has that privilege, with a
287
00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:17.759
couple of exceptions from Keith Jeffrey who wrote the fficial
288
00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:21.039
History of m I six example, or Christopher Andrew who
289
00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:24.720
wrote the ficial History of m I five. But generally
290
00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:27.839
historians have no access, so they have to work with
291
00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:31.759
what's in the National Archives in London. But also I
292
00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:35.039
was lucky enough to interview surviving veterans who are actually
293
00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:38.880
no longer with us, and you also rely occasionally on
294
00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:41.160
relatives coming out of the woodwork saying I've got this
295
00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:43.599
suitcase of papers, and I have no idea what my
296
00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:47.720
dad did or what my mother did, and you begin
297
00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:52.119
to piece together. So it is a process, and with
298
00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:56.119
intelligence history you can never get a totally full picture
299
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:59.680
because there's still stuff I guess that can never be
300
00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:02.640
really east. But I'm okay with that. I used to
301
00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:04.960
think when I was younger that we had to tell
302
00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:08.640
the whole story. And with a lot of history books
303
00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:11.359
and with other kinds of history, I think we can
304
00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:15.240
can make huge progress. But with intelligence history, sometimes you're
305
00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:18.240
working on stuff later on, a few years down the line,
306
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:21.519
and you come across something hidden deep in the files
307
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:24.799
that connects to something earlier. So there's always a process
308
00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:28.240
and a journey of understanding, and it's not always a
309
00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:31.480
complete picture because of course it was so top secret.
310
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:34.480
That's a great point. That's hard too. And when you
311
00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:36.240
go on back in time to get.
312
00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:40.039
Get the whole stories, it's almost impossible in a lot
313
00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:40.440
of ways.
314
00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:42.640
There's so much going on. Even in our own.
315
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:45.200
History books, right we only hear get snippets of stories.
316
00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:47.759
We could actually have a whole course on each each
317
00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:49.839
chapter in one of those history books if you really
318
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:51.599
wanted to push it let.
319
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:53.279
Me ask you this. Actually, you know what, I'll keep
320
00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:54.039
this for the end.
321
00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:57.920
I'll keep this question, okay, the end, which is just
322
00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:01.279
it's an opinion question if did Hitler really die?
323
00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:04.480
But we'll get to that link. Oh gosh, that seems
324
00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:06.880
to be a conspiracy that still lives today for some
325
00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:10.119
strange yes, it does. As a historian, how I get
326
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:12.559
your take? We're switching over to a group that I
327
00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:13.680
hadn't heard about before.
328
00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:16.839
Am I nine, a History of the Secret Service for
329
00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:20.119
Escape and Invasion in World War Two. This is her
330
00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:22.079
other book, folks, and she has several books you might
331
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.440
want to check out. This is a thrilling history of nine,
332
00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:27.759
the World War Two organization that engineer the escape of
333
00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:29.759
Allied forces from behind enemy lines.
334
00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:32.559
So let's find out all about this, doctor five. What'sm
335
00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:33.119
I nine.
336
00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:37.599
Yeah, So this is on the spectrum of military intelligence.
337
00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:41.200
And so we've mentioned already, haven't we m I five
338
00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:43.799
and mi I six, And people are very familiar with
339
00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:48.759
those British intelligence institutions. But for us, it goes from
340
00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:52.279
m I one all the way up to m I nineteen,
341
00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:58.000
and each each had their own you know, brief and
342
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:02.319
it has changed since foundation I mean the services in
343
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:06.480
nineteen oh nine, British Secret Service and British Intelligence Services.
344
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:12.279
The Military Intelligence Band that I nine specifically is in
345
00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:17.240
charge of prisoners of war, whether it's our prisoners in
346
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:20.480
prisoner of war camps or trapped behind enemy lines, or
347
00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:23.480
whether it's enemy prisoners of war. And the idea, of
348
00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:26.480
course Kendricks unit we talked about earlier originally fell within
349
00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:30.559
MI I nine. M I nine became so big it
350
00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:34.680
branched into I nine and m I nineteen in nineteen
351
00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:37.200
forty two. So this is this gives you an idea
352
00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:40.519
of what's ramping up in terms of intelligence. So I
353
00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:45.039
nine proper then is left with our prisoners of war
354
00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:50.960
trying to get intelligence from our personnel, but also to
355
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:54.519
bring them back to escape or to evade capture in
356
00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:58.319
the first instance, to train them before they go into action.
357
00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:01.640
So there was a three training course for all personnel,
358
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:05.920
and the Americans did exactly the same. To think, because
359
00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:09.319
if you're captured, if you've just bailed out of an aircraft,
360
00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:13.039
you might not think logically, or you might not be
361
00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:17.119
so security conscious because you can give yourself away very easily.
362
00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:20.519
And so nine gave a three week training course so
363
00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:24.079
that you had a chance to evade, capture or escape.
364
00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:27.720
And the important thing is to get our personnel back
365
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:31.720
to fight another day. And if you think about pilots
366
00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:34.319
in particular, they're very expensive to train, but it actually
367
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:37.799
takes up to three months. You can't be losing your
368
00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:42.440
pilots because the German Air Force could quickly gain superiority
369
00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:46.720
and then well, yeah, imuntine invasion of Britain for example,
370
00:21:46.759 --> 00:21:51.240
of the United Kingdom, so very very high priority, and
371
00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:55.200
the Germans didn't seem to have an equivalent the Americans did.
372
00:21:55.599 --> 00:22:02.079
The Americans had, American intelligence had mish X, rather obscure
373
00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:04.079
and name for it. But they were doing exactly the
374
00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:09.839
same thing. They were bringing Allied personnel back from Western
375
00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:12.599
Europe and of course from the Far East, the Middle
376
00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:18.039
East wherever they were trapped potentially in enemy occupied territory.
377
00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:21.319
And Emma and I went on to save over thirty
378
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:26.000
five thousand Allied personnel and to bring them back. It's
379
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:27.599
a huge legacy.
380
00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:31.319
Yeah, it is. That's amazing. It's amazing just listening to
381
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:36.319
you how large the breath World War two is. I mean,
382
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:37.680
there's so much going on.
383
00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:41.000
At least I haven't heard a lot of it that
384
00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:43.160
that's happened through it. No matter how much you read,
385
00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:47.640
there's just so much happening everywhere. Now in this book,
386
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:49.640
you know, you drew a lot on declassified files I
387
00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:52.319
can normally do and eyewitness testimonies. Was this one a
388
00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:55.839
little bit more heavy on the eyewitness testimonies or declassified files?
389
00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:56.400
You think.
390
00:22:57.920 --> 00:22:58.319
I use?
391
00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:02.119
Yeah, I think it's the same for both of them.
392
00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:06.400
I used. I went to the primary sources because there
393
00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:08.839
have been books before on I nine, but not for
394
00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:13.000
forty years. And there were two men in MI I
395
00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:16.039
nine who were the giants at our end in Britain.
396
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:19.839
One of them was Airy Neve, who famously was blown
397
00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:23.200
up by the IRA, wasn't it? And Thatcher's government and
398
00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:29.640
Jimmy Langley. They wrote books, one of them with Mdr Foot,
399
00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:35.400
but they didn't have access to declassified files. So Yale
400
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:37.839
University Press sort of, you know, put it to me,
401
00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:40.480
wouldn't it be good to write an updated version of
402
00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:42.480
the m I nine and what more can we discover?
403
00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:45.000
And then we kind of sat there and realized it
404
00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:49.039
had been forty years since anyone had written its history,
405
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:53.039
and forty years and the file to come out in
406
00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:57.079
the meantime. So what I've done, and I think it's
407
00:23:57.160 --> 00:23:59.880
worked very well, is you've got the organization of m
408
00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:02.920
I nine in the background, in the American equivalent, but
409
00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:08.119
within that, and it's done chronologically. I've told and woven
410
00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:11.960
the stories, the key stories escape routes across Europe. I
411
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:16.440
concentrate primarily on Western Europe because it's a huge topic. Otherwise,
412
00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:20.759
so that people get an understanding of the achievements, not
413
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:23.359
only the organization. It's not dry that I am. I
414
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:27.720
intered in the human stories. Those thousands of men and
415
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:33.720
women who acted as helpers, guides, couriers, who saved are personnel.
416
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:38.920
Their acts of bravery really shined through and they are extraordinary.
417
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:42.799
Absolutely, And I know you even mentioned Mary Lindell.
418
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:45.440
I think, yes, one of the females, one of the
419
00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:46.640
only females I think right.
420
00:24:46.759 --> 00:24:49.039
In regards to parachuting or something like that.
421
00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:55.400
Perrier, well, yeah, there was Vitres Truand who was parachuted
422
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.079
into Holland. But Holland was a very tricky situation. She
423
00:24:58.200 --> 00:25:03.279
was captured. Nine had a top secret section called IS
424
00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:07.319
nine or Intelligence School nine. It stood for also under
425
00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:11.240
the umbrella known as Room nine. Hundred and this they
426
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:13.640
love all these obscure names. It's the same thing. But
427
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:17.680
Room nine hundred was sending agents behind enemy lines, and
428
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:22.200
Beatrice Truda was one of them behind enemy lines in
429
00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:24.519
the same way as we think of SE the Special
430
00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:29.519
Approations Executive. Everybody knows about SOE and the courageous agents
431
00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:32.599
men and women. And you have the Americans too, don't you.
432
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:35.440
There were parachute behind enemy lines, drop behind any lines,
433
00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:39.839
all sorts of ways, landed by boat, whatever. But m
434
00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:42.839
I nine, under its top secret section, Room nine hundred
435
00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:46.480
percenting its own agents, and Mary Lindell was another one
436
00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:50.319
who worked. She also we believe had some links with
437
00:25:50.680 --> 00:25:53.880
MI six SIS as it's also known, so she was
438
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:55.839
also sort of working with them. But she went on
439
00:25:55.880 --> 00:25:59.680
to save known as the Cockleshell Heroes, and they were
440
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:03.319
the condos that were on top secret mission to Bordeaux
441
00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:07.640
canoe down the river to place limpet mines on the
442
00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:12.000
German ships in the port of Bordeaux. Two of them
443
00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:15.640
were successful, actually, but only two of them got back.
444
00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:19.039
The rest lost their lives. So it's hugely dangerous mission.
445
00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:23.559
Of twelve of them involved, and Mary Lindell surveys. Sorry
446
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:30.559
Mary Lindell rescued the only two survivors of that mission,
447
00:26:31.640 --> 00:26:36.200
and her bravery against steely Nerve is really worth reading about.
448
00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:38.119
In the book She Was Fearsome.
449
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:42.279
It was an amazing There's so many incredibly strong, brave
450
00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:45.319
females in the world of espionage and World War Two
451
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:47.720
and over the years, it's amazing as you listen to
452
00:26:47.799 --> 00:26:49.279
some of these stories.
453
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:50.480
Again, folks.
454
00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:52.119
The book is called them I nine The History of
455
00:26:52.119 --> 00:26:54.319
the Secret Service for Escape and Invasion in World War
456
00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:57.839
Two by doctor Helen Frye. We also talked a little
457
00:26:57.839 --> 00:26:59.880
bit about her other books, Through the Walls, Heavy Ears.
458
00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:03.119
She's got over twenty books, that's right, twenty books focusing
459
00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:06.039
on intelligence and POW's and World War Two. So if
460
00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:09.519
this is your genre, definitely recommend the books. If you
461
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:12.279
haven't read the genre, I highly recommend the books. It's
462
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:13.920
kind of hard not to recommend the book.
463
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:14.880
Doctor Frye.
464
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:16.920
I guess as we get away from these last two
465
00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:19.559
books now, just a couple of questions in regards to.
466
00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:24.039
Things in society people always kind of wonder about. I guess,
467
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:25.920
is there are there any movies out there?
468
00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:27.680
And I know this might be a little tricky because
469
00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:30.319
you're overseas, over there across the pond, as they say.
470
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:32.559
But are there any movies that stand out for you
471
00:27:32.599 --> 00:27:35.680
that you say that's pretty spot on or that's way
472
00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:37.759
off the mark in regards to World War Two?
473
00:27:39.160 --> 00:27:41.720
Well, there was one that came out recently actually called
474
00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:45.519
A Call to Spy and it is available on like
475
00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:52.279
the Netflix platform and others. And for me, that seemed
476
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:58.440
very very close to a story about female agents in
477
00:27:58.519 --> 00:28:03.319
France dropped into France. And usually those stories are quite similar,
478
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:07.759
you know, previous films, but this one, there's something special
479
00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:11.480
about this one, and you get a close understanding of
480
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:15.440
the difficult decisions which face the lady who sent the
481
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:18.160
female agents in particular, and well and she sent male
482
00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:22.039
agents into France was one Vera Atkins, And you get
483
00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:25.240
a sense the film has very the first time has
484
00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:30.279
focused on her and three of her agents, and I
485
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:36.200
think we finally, very subtly get an understanding of the
486
00:28:36.279 --> 00:28:40.680
challenges she faced and how it worked behind the scenes,
487
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:44.680
and then that's woven into the brave story of people
488
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:48.519
like yak Nor Khan. And I always forget the name
489
00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:51.920
of the American one that where it was dropped in
490
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:55.240
with the wooden leg. Her name escapes me immediately. I remember,
491
00:28:55.359 --> 00:29:00.240
since you finished the interview, it'll come to me. Virginia Hall.
492
00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:04.480
There you go. Yeah, very brave woman. In fact, she
493
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:08.599
was smuggled out of France over the Pyrenees by the
494
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:12.480
M I nine networks. Oh really interestingly. Yeah, it's a
495
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:16.640
fantastic scene in the film A Call to Spy, and
496
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:20.839
I hugely recommend it where she is struggling and you
497
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:23.119
just get the sense of, oh my gosh, how difficult
498
00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:26.079
it was to get out over the Pyrenees. And there
499
00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:28.440
she is struggling with her wooden leg, but she does
500
00:29:28.599 --> 00:29:32.160
make it, she escapes, and yeah, you get a sense
501
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:36.119
of the bravery. And to me, it feels as though
502
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:41.079
that film was kept very close to reality, and it
503
00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:44.640
felt very real. Yeah. So I enjoyed that film very
504
00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:46.319
much and I'm a huge fan of it.
505
00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:49.160
Oh, I have I have to look at that card, Despi.
506
00:29:51.079 --> 00:29:53.680
I guess I'd be remissing. I don't mention it. What
507
00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:55.839
are your thoughts, as I know you're more of a
508
00:29:55.880 --> 00:30:01.319
historian per se than solely focused on spies, but what's
509
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:03.200
your take on James Bond?
510
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:11.039
That's not controversial at all? Okay, a couple of things
511
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:14.440
about James Bond. I think I've grown to enjoy the
512
00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:19.319
films more as I've got older. I love the more
513
00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:24.240
recent ones. I think they're fantastic. Yeah, I do. And Okay,
514
00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:26.680
he's always blowing up. The big buildings are falling on
515
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:29.759
top of him almost and he's leaping between, you know,
516
00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:32.960
doing the impossible. But we expect that that's what we
517
00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:37.480
want from our James Bond. Our Ian Fleming's character's the
518
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:41.680
license that's gone further. But interestingly it is quite a bit,
519
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:45.839
certainly in the early stuff which comes from Ian Fleming's
520
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:49.799
wartime career. So there's me merely thinking he's been quite
521
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:55.319
a genius in you know, these novels. But the escape gadgets,
522
00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:57.920
for example, they're part of m I nine, and Fleming
523
00:30:58.039 --> 00:31:00.720
was linked to m I nine. I think for me
524
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:03.279
it's also fun. I don't sit there and watch the
525
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:06.519
James Bond films and think, oh, I've read that in
526
00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:10.039
the files. I do sit there and I enjoy them,
527
00:31:10.359 --> 00:31:13.799
but I think now i'm older, I think I enjoy
528
00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:17.240
them because you get a sense that in places they
529
00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:20.119
are very close to the truth. But as with everything,
530
00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:23.119
it's walls and mirrors and you don't know which bits
531
00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:26.480
are absolutely true, but you just get a feeling that
532
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:28.599
it is rooted in that world. And of course it's
533
00:31:28.599 --> 00:31:32.160
gone beyond that world. It's for our entertainment, But I
534
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:35.240
do love Fleming stuff. Yeah, I guess.
535
00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:37.480
My other question is one of my favorite shows from
536
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:39.000
the UK was Foyle's War.
537
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:45.960
I love Foyle's War. If anybody's listening that has any influence,
538
00:31:46.039 --> 00:31:48.000
please we want more of Foyle's War.
539
00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:52.359
Yeah, bring back Michael Kitchen. What's your take on that.
540
00:31:52.359 --> 00:31:53.839
That seem to be pretty accurate or is it?
541
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:58.200
Yes, Yeah, it's very accurate. In a couple of places
542
00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:03.119
they change the locals, but there is a scene, for example,
543
00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:06.720
an interrogation scene. It's very close to the truth. And
544
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:10.640
that tips over into another book I did on the
545
00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:14.480
London cage as it was called cage slang interrogation quarters.
546
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:20.680
So yeah, he does meticulous research and he's quite open
547
00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:23.920
I believe about the fact that some of it is
548
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:27.839
based is being inspired by stuff he's read in the
549
00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:29.000
National Archives.
550
00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:32.640
Amazing, amazing.
551
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:35.279
Across the whole series.
552
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:37.400
Yeah, yeah, and how.
553
00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:41.200
He takes that personal human side of that time, that's
554
00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:43.559
the amazing thing for me. Because you see, it wasn't
555
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:46.599
just about the war, it was about everything else that disrupts,
556
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:47.799
love lives.
557
00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:51.079
Yeah, family, everything was just amazing.
558
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:55.880
And Foyle himself says very little. If you think about
559
00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:59.960
how many lines he says, it's all about his face
560
00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:03.839
and his movements, and he's just a glance and it
561
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:07.279
says it all. We all understand what it means. But yeah,
562
00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:10.880
if your viewers can get hold of if they haven't
563
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:14.759
seen Foyle's War, yeah, it's absolutely brilliant. And the twists
564
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:15.440
and things.
565
00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:19.000
Yeahs, I'm sorry.
566
00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:22.559
I had a lot of murders in that area of Hastings,
567
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:25.200
didn't they in World War Two? According to Foyle's War.
568
00:33:26.440 --> 00:33:28.640
Yeah, it's like a serial killer on the loose over there.
569
00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:33.079
I know, it's fantastic stuff. I loved it. I loved it.
570
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:35.400
I guess my last question, I guess we'll wrap up
571
00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:38.400
with Hitler. Is he really dead or not? I can't believe.
572
00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:41.319
I know where people still believe Elvis Presley over here
573
00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:44.359
is possibly still alive, and JFK is somewhere as well.
574
00:33:44.599 --> 00:33:48.039
Hitler. It was interesting because I think even Discovery Channel
575
00:33:48.119 --> 00:33:50.559
or HBO what are those cable channels took it.
576
00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:52.839
A step further last year when they started doing a
577
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:55.960
documentary on Hitler and his general's over in Argentina.
578
00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:58.960
Yeah, so he got crazy.
579
00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:02.680
What do you say, Well, it's not something I've personally
580
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:07.079
researched myself about the whole crep of Nazi flight and
581
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:10.880
those that got out to Argentina, etc. But yeah, I mean,
582
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:12.800
of course Hitler would be dead now, he'd be far
583
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:16.559
too old to be still alive, so that we know.
584
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:19.880
So answer to your question, is he dead? The answer
585
00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:22.119
is yes. Do I think he made it out of
586
00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:26.400
the bunker? No, I think he died in the bunker,
587
00:34:27.079 --> 00:34:30.800
But there's always you know, you never know for sure
588
00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:33.760
because you know that could be turned on its head.
589
00:34:34.039 --> 00:34:38.639
But based on the current evidence we have, yes, it's
590
00:34:39.079 --> 00:34:41.679
I think, yeah, he died in the bunker. In fact,
591
00:34:41.719 --> 00:34:44.400
I interviewed a veteran who is still alive, and he
592
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:48.400
was involved in counterintelligence in that period at the end
593
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:50.360
of the war. He was on he came over on
594
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:52.719
the Kinder transports. He's of the young, slightly younger, he's
595
00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:55.320
still in his late nineties now, and he said, there's
596
00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:58.920
absolutely no doubt that Hitler died in the bunker, because
597
00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:01.360
I asked him. I said, look, this is flying around
598
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:06.480
and there's absolutely no question, according to him, that Hitler
599
00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:08.840
died in the bunker. So yeah, I'm not a fan
600
00:35:08.920 --> 00:35:10.239
of conspiracy theories.
601
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:14.679
I'm not either, but sometimes make for interesting chats.
602
00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:20.239
I guess, well, look it gets us thinking and reassessing evidence.
603
00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:24.599
I think that's always important that we that we're challenged
604
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:26.000
at times.
605
00:35:26.679 --> 00:35:30.480
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely again, folks of the books, doctor Helen
606
00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:31.960
Frye f r Y.
607
00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:34.000
The book is m I nine, a history of the
608
00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:37.079
Secret Service for escaping invasion in World War Two. The
609
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:39.400
other book we talk briefly about as well in the
610
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:41.519
beginning of the show. Again briefly is because they're only
611
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:43.480
touching the tip of the iceberg, folks, it's called The
612
00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:46.320
Walls Half Ears. Another great book she just mentioned. I
613
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:49.599
think it's The London Cage. But she has over twenty books,
614
00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:52.119
lots of books focusing on intelligence and POWs. So if
615
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:55.400
you're into the espionage world, these are the books for you.
616
00:35:56.119 --> 00:35:57.679
Doctor fry Thank you so much for.
617
00:35:57.599 --> 00:35:59.920
Being here, Thank you for having me.
618
00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:04.159
Fabulous stuff, folks, Thank you for listening. Make sure to share, subscribe. Hey,
619
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:06.039
if you're on Apple, give us those five stars. We
620
00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:08.880
truly appreciate it. Thanks for listening. Everybody