Eboni: [00:00:00] Welcome to Spotlight on Community Colleges, the official podcast of the Council for the Study of Community Colleges. Here, we center the meaningful work conducted by administrators, researchers, faculty, staff, community members, and additional stakeholders, all in the means of elevating our community colleges.
Now, here are your hosts, Drs. Erin Doran, Carrie B. Kisker, and Brett Ranon Nachman.
Erin: Welcome to Spotlight on Community Colleges. My name is Erin Doran, and I'm joined today with my fellow co-host, Dr. Brett Ranon Nachman . Did you know that the American Association of Community Colleges reported in their 2025 fast facts that 55% of community college students received some type of financial aid? While community colleges remain one [00:01:00] of the most cost effective choices for students pursuing a post-secondary degree or credential, paying out of pocket may not always be an option.
However, the financial aid system can be daunting for students unfamiliar with it, and there have been some significant changes to the financial aid system in the last few years. For example, in the 20 24, 20 25 academic year, there was a major update to the free application for financial student aid or fafsa, as we commonly know it.
The FAFSA simplification was meant to make the application process easier for students and their families. However, as was widely reported, the rollout of the new application in December, 2023 caused mass delays and confusion for applicants and their families. This past summer, higher Education Advocates kept a close eye on the passage of the one big beautiful Bill to see what cuts, if any, would be made to the Pell Grant program, which many students from low income backgrounds utilize.
Our guests today are [00:02:00] discussing some of the financial aid issues impacting community colleges and their students. In particular, we are going to talk about some of the challenges and opportunities inherent in financial aid and student's ability to pay for college. Including the challenges in income verification and making satisfactory academic progress.
We'll also talk about some opportunities including workforce, Pell and creative approaches to helping students pay for their education while at the same time engaging them in financial literacy training.
Today's guests are Dr. Matthew Mayhew, Dr. Courtney DeRoche, and Dr. Devon Graves.
Dr. Graves is an assistant professor of community college leadership at North Carolina State University, where he researches the racial disparities faced by students of color in American higher education. His research is primarily focused on uncovering the inequities that students encounter in the financial aid process.
We encourage you to check out Dr. Graves research, which has been [00:03:00] published in leading academic journals such as The Journal of Higher Education, the Journal of Diversity in Higher Education, new Directions for Community Colleges, and the Journal of Student Financial Aid. Dr. Graves welcome to Spotlight on Community Colleges.
A big part of your research is on community college students, specifically students from minoritized backgrounds and their experience with the income verification process in financial aid.
Can you briefly explain to us what that is and why it matters?
Dr. Graves: Yeah. Thank you so much for the question and thank you for having me. first off, what income verification is, it's the process where the US Department of Education verifies the information that students and families provide on the FAFSA application and what the department does, they have an algorithm that flags applications.
And they send those flag files to the institutions that the student has applied to. And so they tell the institutions their financial aid offices, you need to [00:04:00] verify these students and find out if the information they provided on the FAFSA form is correct. And so institutions across the country are responsible for doing this as part of, Regulations and education code and what verification can look like. It can be anywhere from a college asking a student to submit their W twos, their tax transcripts, sometimes birth certificates to confirmed dependence. So it is this, Archaic process that requires students to prove that they need the aid that they're eligible for.
And it has existed for some time, and it has shifted in what it looks like for our students, and particularly the rate of how many students are actually selected for verification. So we've seen it as high up to 30%. We've seen it lower down to 17%. a perfect example was during the COVID-19 pandemic. The Biden administration lessened the amount of, students that were selected for verification just to help with [00:05:00] the influx of students that were seeking support during the pandemic.
income verification is this process that happens after the fafsa. We think that it's done. A student has submitted that FAFSA application. We can wash our hands of it. The family's good, okay. We now know what you're eligible for. But then suddenly they get an email from their financial aid office, their institution saying, you've been selected for verification, and we need to verify this information.
Please submit this info. Again, tax transcripts, W twos, to the financial aid office for review.
Erin: And you mentioned that the rates can vary from like 17% to 30%. Is that like of the total amount of students who are applying for financial aid every year or is that like 30% of students at an institution applying for financial aid?
Dr. Graves: That's a great question. And so it is total out of all the students that, applied, for the FAFSA and that is a sizable amount of, students and then, but at the campus level, it can [00:06:00] vary. And that's something that is a hidden curriculum when it comes to income verification. Some institutions.
Can over verify where they have the flagged applications that the Department of Education has notified them of. But an institution can go above that and say, we're gonna verify, for example, all first year students. So a community college can say, in addition to those, applications that we know, the department is requiring us to flag, we're gonna verify all first year students or first time enrolled students so we can have.
Information and know what their financial aid situation is really And so that, or over verification is something that in practice, the Financial Aid Professional Association of NASPA has spoken out against institutions not doing that, but it's up to the institution to do that. And again, the, national number of verification can look 30%, but at an, at a campus level, it could be up to a hundred percent at some times.
Erin: And is this, [00:07:00] is this meant to mitigate any sort of fraud or what is the purpose of the verification process like from the purview of the government?
Dr. Graves: Yeah, another great question and definitely essential to understand where this is coming from. So that's the point. It's to make sure people truly need, the support that they need, that their financial aid information that they provided on the FAFSA is correct.
And so it is a tool to. Stop fraud or at least make sure folks get the aid that they actually need. And it's a spectrum. So you can have folks who filled out the FAFSA form wrong and they actually were eligible for more money, but it can be on the other side where they filled it out incorrectly and now they are eligible for less money.
But from, some of the latest data. 84% of, folks who are selected for verification have no change in their aid eligibility. So it's a small amount of students that have any change at all. And so again, it's this lever that the government has [00:08:00] been using to, watch over or surveil students, in this process.
But as I've learned through my research, particularly in the community college process, the verification process can be very detrimental to our students.
Erin: And can you talk more about that? 'cause I know, just, practically speaking, how does this impact students' aid disbursement? a lot of college students, like they are waiting, counting down the days until that check is cleared. Like the tuition, payment is made. They're waiting to buy books. They might be waiting to buy a laptop to pay their rent and all of this stuff. So like, how does. Verification impact that.
Dr. Graves: Yeah, so again, verification is so unique in the community college context because for some of our students in the community college context, they're adult learners, so they're returning. so they're not familiar with, processes. They're students that are coming from high school, and so they've lost the support of a counselor or a program [00:09:00] at the high school level.
So they're trying to navigate a college for the first time. Or, they're somebody who's been out of the system for a little bit, but they're coming back with some work experience and trying to navigate and see what financial aid is, available to me. And so for those students that are selected for income verification, if they did not know they were gonna go to community college, for example, and then they apply to a college, later in the summer or at the beginning of the start of the semester because of the open access or open admission policy of institutions.
They will find out about income verification later. So we have students that find out late in summer or at the beginning of the academic term when they're finally in student mode, oh my gosh, I got this email from the financial aid office, and it's saying I need to turn in these forms. So a student who is late getting their verification process done.
It takes a lengthy review. And and sometimes you can see three to five weeks that financial aid offices will tell students when you submit these forms, it'll take three to five weeks to review. In the study that I did, it was [00:10:00] almost aid weeks. so a student who submits their. Income verification forms late, have to wait for this review to make sure that they are approved.
So once they're approved for their aid, if they missed a disbursement date at their college, this can further delay them receiving their aid. Now, why does this matter in the community college context? One thing that I found through this work is that community colleges. Disperse aid differently than what we may think of if we're coming from a university, perspective.
Typically, we see at universities, they disperse aid at the beginning of each semester. What I found is that some community colleges across our country are dispersing aid and smaller amounts, smaller increments, sometimes once a month, sometimes twice a semester. It can vary depending on the college's policies, and it seems that colleges started to do this in order.
To support students because if a student starts college and they realize it's not for them, or life is happening again, an adult [00:11:00] learner who has children or has to go back to work, if they took out some financial aid and they drop out of their classes, they'll be on the hook to repay that money to the government.
And so some institutions instituted this structured disbursement policy to help these students not take out more aid that's needed. But there's a catch with that. there's this, other side of it where if a student has, conducted verification, they got done, but they missed that initial disbursement date.
They're waiting until. A month later, at times in my work to get their financial aid. So they're sitting in class without access to money that is supposed to pay for books, parking, in some cases for cost of living to eat, to pay rent, to pay for gas. And so the structure, disbursements and income verification can turn into a double whammy that harms our students, and again, in our community colleges that are serving our most vulnerable student population.
So the disbursements and income verification are very much tied together. [00:12:00]
Erin: You have done work that is. Really at the intersection of race and, the financial aid process. And in your work, like how do students' racial identities like play into their, in interaction with the financial aid system?
Dr. Graves: Yeah, I think for me, when doing this work, I had to remain true to myself and just talk about. The research that's existed before, the scholars that have come before me have consistently found racial inequities in these processes. Whether it's income verification, whether it's FAFs application on the front end, or SAP policy, satisfactory academic progress policies on the backend.
It's typically low income students. It's typically students of color that struggle with these processes, and it's a trend. And staying true to the critical race perspective that I have is that. This is racism working well. We're seeing these, processes play out where we're [00:13:00] disadvantaging students of color particularly, and financial aid is racialized.
perfect example. Almost north of 80% of black students apply for a fafsa. there is this expectation from communities of color that there's this resource that's out there for me. And so what I've taken the step is to call these processes what they are. It's, racism working well because when we think about a student who does not need the support of financial aid, they are circumventing all these processes.
They're able to be in class and not be worried about the this outside noise that is. Can be essential to a student survival in the classroom and outside of the classroom. And particularly those are white students who have an income, advantage, who have an inheritance advantage. And this is coming from bodies of scholarship and sociology, public policy and education that have been studying this forever.
And so I really want our practitioners. Especially in the community college sector, to think about how does race play out in this? What does your [00:14:00] data say? Who is struggling in the income verification process? Who's struggling to meet SAP, who's struggling with disbursement dates? So if we know that, then maybe we can take more targeted approaches to support these specific populations.
So for example, if it is our black students, how are we getting connected to the community to inform them of these? Processes that go beyond the fafsa. How are we working with cultural centers that can be, working with students directly on this issue if students aren't comfortable going to the financial aid office, for example.
So again, our financial aid staff have to see this as a racial issue so that they can make targeted approaches to make sure these communities are supported to get the aid that they need.
Erin: I don't know if you see this in your work too. I, feel like in all of my professional experience in financial or in higher education, we've treated financial aid as very specialized like skills and knowledge set that, that others don't necessarily wanna support.
It's so nuanced. It's. So individual, it can be very [00:15:00] complex. And it, it, it sounds like, or at least what I'm hearing from you is that like we can't just say to a student, go see financial aid. Like in order to fully support a student, we have to be good agents and good stewards of the institution to help them in whatever way we can.
And what sort of advice do you give to maybe non-financial aid? Practitioners of how we support these students?
Dr. Graves: Yeah, that's a great question. and I have, some research that, showed that students in the financial aid process were going to other departments, beyond, financial aid to get support.
So they were going to their first year success center at their community college. They were going to EOP programs. They were going to programs that they were more comfortable with engaging. And so it was on this. Staff and those programs to take on that extra initiative to learn about the financial aid processes.
So I think partnership [00:16:00] across programs and departments at institutions are super important. It, has to start with financial aid. If they, remove the veil and, recognize that, of course you all are the experts, you know the policies and you're the best equipped. But we gotta recognize that sometimes our students need that support and that helping hand from other programs.
the other thing is that as faculty, we, participate in shared governance and we're always interested in holding account on issues of enrollment, issues of admissions, but we gotta get to holding account these other processes like financial aid, like a burser office.
When is, when are payments going out? How often are they going out? We need to be asking these questions. Of the administration and making sure that it's publicly accessible to students and families. That can be something that as faculty we know and understand and make sure to advocate for students in that way.
That we go and ask that question to the financial director or we ask, an A VP because we know them as a colleague or they teach in our [00:17:00] program, especially us as higher ed scholars. We definitely have some, situations like that, or a dean of students, and just say, Hey, can we find out a little bit more about the data on financial aid?
What does that look like for our students? And how can we as faculty make sure that we're supporting them in that process? So we gotta take ownership over all aspects of. Of student services, but particularly financial aid because it, students should be struggling in the classroom with the academic concepts, not the outside forces that should be supporting them to be able to engage successfully in the classroom.
We have to take ownership of that.
Brett: One thing that you're mentioning, Dr. Graves, is making me, think about one of your past pieces on Lennox, community college students and their financial aid income verification. And I remember you wrote about the, the difficulty in getting parental signatures and the role of kind of familial capital in this process, which you were just alluding to.
And I'm wondering how you make [00:18:00] sense of, the roles of family members in supporting their. Their children, whether or not they had engaged in those processes themselves. Might you have some thoughts in terms of what that looks like given the, tenuous landscape right now?
Dr. Graves: That's a great question and, it's so difficult to answer because each family is unique and make those decisions related to what support looks like.
I've seen examples where it's just the student and the parent don't have the same schedule, so they're two shift passing that night for the lack of a better phrase. And so it's just, to be there in person because the college requires the parent to sign. The, dependent form. So a student who's a dependent on is a dependent in the financial aid process is relying on their parents' income information.
So the college is requiring the parent to sign off on this verification form. So if the student and the parent have different schedules or they live in different households, that can be [00:19:00] difficult. But again, for those students that fall into that category of dependent families have to understand, and particularly parents or guardians have to understand this process includes them as well.
And until your, your child, your student gets that cash or that aid in hand, you gotta be engaged throughout that process and be asking questions and being supportive. And then also, we talk about helicopter parents, but this may be the time where being a helicopter parent is not a bad idea.
Where if you're the parent calling the financial aid office because your student doesn't have time to be waiting in line, at the beginning of the semester, maybe a financial aid office would respond differently to a parent then, necessarily a student. So parents, don't be afraid to advocate for your students to get the A that they're eligible for.
That is. Super, super important advocacy at all levels and, it's a, family affair and so owning it all is super important.
Erin: something that comes to mind, while you were talking Dr. Graves e especially in, in, in [00:20:00] understanding that knowledge is power, that there is a, hidden curriculum to financial aid structures, is also knowing what.
Mechanisms. Colleges have, maybe it's via scholarships and emergency aid via other foundations. maybe it is just emergency loans to help tide students over to get to that next disbursement period and, things like that. And it, it seems like it is extremely important, especially in maybe this era, like the, news right now seems to suggest that there has been increased verification.
This fall semester this year. And it seems like faculty, staff, advisors, leaders, should know about what other forms of aid. and that could be food pantries, that could be whatever, that could be the, transportation vouchers and things like that to help students, so that we can keep 'em in classes, we can keep 'em engaged [00:21:00] and, keep 'em safe and all that while they wait.
Dr. Graves: Yeah. one thing that makes me think of is one tool that financial aid offices has is called Professional Judgment. And it's something that's not widely talked about, but got a little bit of insight during the COVID-19 pandemic because professional judgment essentially is a student can come to the financial aid office and say, I had a change in my life circumstance, my income has changed.
my parents no longer. Talk to me and so I am not getting the support that I need anymore. I need my financial aid package to look differently. A student can go to the financial aid office and financial aid offices have a mechanism called professional judgment where they can change a student's aid package or they can approve their verification without the necessary documents that the Department of Education is required for, and each institution has the power to do that and the Department of Education.
does not have the power to, overthrow that decision of professional judgment. [00:22:00] And so one thing as a profession, there's this misconception that students are going to, flood to the financial aid office and say, oh, I had this change. I had this change. I need a professional judgment. But that's just not the case.
And the numbers didn't reflect that. During the COVID to 19 pandemic, when folks went through a major financial shift, individually, families, units. And so professional judgment is something that we need to talk more about, that we need students to know that they can be empowered to go directly to the financial aid office and say, I needed to look at my aid package and life has changed for me and I need to make an adjustment accordingly.
So that's the first thing, but two, I think you're absolutely right. Going back to what can we as faculty, what can staff advocates do at college campuses is making sure we're including statements in our syllabi about basic needs as you mentioned. Or just how to access financial aid. Who's the person to talk to that key contact information or just saying, Hey, I'm willing to be an advocate and bug for you.
So you email me and I'm happy to be the faculty [00:23:00] member to send that email, to the financial director or to a dean, to a, a vice president because a. That is being an advocate. And that usually, as we know as faculty, sometimes we get, we can move things a little bit faster than a student might be able to.
And that matters. And this matters because as another point you mentioned, the Trump administration has made it very clear that they are going to increase verification efforts. And I'm concerned that colleges and universities are gonna be emboldened to really make, the wrong decision when it comes to, This idea that students are committing fraud. The term in the financial aid world is Pell Runners. So essentially a student enrolls at a college, they receive their financial aid, they drop out and leave, and that also goes back to income verification and the structure disbursements that I mentioned. And so this discourse that is existing at the national level.
We'll have a negative impact for financial aid. And community colleges [00:24:00] are definitely always on alert because again, of that open admission, open access mission. But we have to do better by knowing our students better and understanding that, Fraud happens, but not in this, wave, a tidal wave that, we may hear in the news or that the Department of Education is stating.
So we have to be the ones to make the decision that we understand our students, we are gonna do what's best. We're gonna follow and comply with whatever laws the Department of Education is saying, but we're not gonna. Overdo it. We're not gonna be the ones to, expand upon this negative discourse because they're talking about our students.
They're talking about our, families. They're talking about our communities, and we know them the best. The Department of Education doesn't, and so we have to be the ones to stand up and make sure that we are supporting our students the best way possible through that financial aid process.
Erin: It's been a rough couple of years to be in financial aid.
I think, last, year, this time around, we were talking, the, [00:25:00] headlines around financial aid were about the fafsa, rollout and how rough that was for students for financial aid, personnel all over the country. this semester we're talking a lot about verification and things like that.
what. Aside from those things like this updated fafsa, which, has had, had some benefits, this increased verification, are there other sorts of issues that you think need more attention? for example, I will admit, I've never heard of professional judgment. I've never heard those words before.
So that's fascinating to me. But. What else should we be paying attention to?
Dr. Graves: Yeah, definitely two things. And I think, the first thing is, probably more, more the bigger one is, the government shutdown that's happening right now. That is going to have a huge impact because the Department of Education had just celebrated that they had launched the 20 26, 20 27 FAFSA application, [00:26:00] and then the government shut down.
And so that's gonna impact students who are applying to higher education, and particularly, if they have any questions. There's gonna be a delay in response because of the layoffs and the furloughs happening due to the government shutdown. But the other thing that is super important, and I found this the last time I collected data with income verification during the last government shutdown, which was 2018 to 2019.
When students are selected for verification. So if we have students this fall semester selected for income verification, they just enrolled in the community college, they found out they're eligible for financial aid, they like, oh, I gotta get, verification done. And one of those forms being asked is the tax transcripts, the IRS office is closed.
So they can't get that tax transcript. So until that IRS office is open, these students have no way to get around that unless they can, find a cop or whatever. But that was one of the things of, my local federal office, so I can go in and get my tax forms is closed, [00:27:00] and so this shutdown is going to have implications.
On folks who are applying for the FAFSA for next year and for our current students who are navigating the financial aid process. That is just something that we may be overlooking right now, but the longer this goes, the bigger impact it's gonna have on the financial aid process. And then the other thing that I think is important, a topic that we need to continue to discuss, especially in the community college context, a satisfactory academic progress.
It's been so nice to have conversations about. work, Pell for Workforce. It's been nice to have conversations about credit for prior learning, but one thing it that comes into this is financial in eligibility. If we have students that have been in a community college for, they did a semester, they didn't do so well, they dropped out, they went to work.
Now they're coming back a couple years later to that college. That college is gonna have their transcript, and if they didn't do well and they got below a 2.0 GPA, they're no longer eligible for financial aid. But this now, this semester, they're getting a [00:28:00] 4.0. Life is going well. They're still not eligible for financial aid.
So SAP harms students, particularly in the community college context, that when we have this open access and open admission where students can have life circumstances, be in unique situations that. Requires them to be more nimble than a student that can go straight through a program. We have to look at how can we advocate for federal policy that takes that to into account, because we have probably have students out there that are eligible that would be eligible for financial aid if it wasn't for archaic SAP policies or for mistakes that they made earlier on in their community, college career or at another university, and they're going to a community college to start up.
So government shut down and SAP are two things. We gotta continue. To advocate for government shutdown in the immediate, and SAP for the long term.
Erin: I'm not gonna lie, I hadn't even thought about. Fafsa, you're absolutely right. My, my social media [00:29:00] feed was full last week of 26, 27. FAFSA is out, it's available.
And I hadn't even stopped to think about, department of Eds closed. Yep. and you're absolutely right. And, as we are recording, I think, what we were, we're on like day seven of the shutdown or something to that effect. It's Friday afternoon on October 10th from what I was reading this morning. It looks like this time next week, the government is still going to be shut down. So we will be heading into, completing, week two, maybe even headed into week three.
Dr. Graves: Yep. So think about those students and families that are, going through this process and, it's just not something we're, thinking about. It's just not front of mind. And so again, going back to that advocate question you'd asked before, like, how are we making sure that our institutions are being held accountable, to provide support in the interim? So if a [00:30:00] high school student is applying and they can't reach out to the department of Ed, can they reach out to their local community college or to their local university for help?
On a form, regardless if they're gonna attend that institution or not. how normal would that be? And again, as institutions of higher learning, we should take on that responsibility. we owe that to the community and, the communities we serve. And this shut down, I saw the, negative effects of the last one, for, folks in the financial aid process.
And depending on how long this goes, we may see the same thing.
Erin: And one last question, and I don't know if, you know this, what has the impact been on financial aid personnel themselves? There's always new policy, new laws to keep up with. But as I said, a few minutes ago, it's been a rough couple years to be in financial aid.
Dr. Graves: Yeah, that's a great question. And shout out to our financial aid staff. In no way do I want to paint them as, villains or bad people. They are out here working, and some of them are the strongest student advocates ever, but they [00:31:00] have a tough job. They have to comply with institutional policies, sometimes statewide policies, and then federal policies, and think about from their perspective, you have a.
interesting. It will be the word I'll use, federal government right now where a financial aid director is probably worried about, what if the Department of Ed comes in and audits the work that I've been doing as a student-centered, financial aid practitioner. So I think about the proposal, earlier, this year about, cutting the Pell Grant.
that's the largest need-based aid program in the country that would have lasting impacts on students and families and institutions. So our financial aid staff have been going through the wringer, trying to keep up with the, all the changes this administration has been throwing at them. So they are really walking a fine line between supporting the students and families.
Through the financial aid process, but also adhering to the strict federal guidelines. And again, one of those guidelines, [00:32:00] we talked about this increase in verification. Increase in verification impacts our institutions because they have to do it. And typically our community colleges are lower resourced and so they don't have as many.
Staff in a financial aid office. So they're the ones that have to go through the paperwork and they have to check it and compare it to the fafsa. So that's why sometimes it could be a lengthy review. So in no way would a financial aid office ever advocate to, keep things tough and difficult.
But I think that, again, because their hands are tied with the policies they have to follow. They are walking a tight line. So as much as we wanna hold our colleagues in the financial aid office accountable or whatever student services, out there at our, institutions, we also gotta support them and find out how we can help them.
and that's just something that as we continue to see policies change, they are gonna be trying to keep up as much as, other policies at the federal level are changing outside of education. They are, [00:33:00] in the financial aid office monitoring those policies, those statements coming down from the Office of Federal Student Aid and the broader Department of Education to see what this means for them and how is this gonna impact their department, their institution, and their students.
Erin: That's fascinating. what are you currently working on, or what are you hoping to work on in, the future in this vein on financial aid and community colleges?
Dr. Graves: Yeah, I just wanna continue to study the financial aid process again. I think, I've done a, I think, a good enough job to talk about, it's more than just submitting the FAFSA and have done work on income verification and, interested in understanding more about disbursement dates with our community colleges across the country.
I really want to know what do those dates look like and how are they communicated to our students? I'm curious how students perceive them. there are some students in prior work that have done that, like the structured disbursement, they like the aid, like a paycheck model. But then there's some who are like, Hey, look, [00:34:00] this is not the best, situation for me.
this is not gonna be beneficial for me. So I would love to continue to capture their stories. And then really the advocacy piece, the, social justice piece. the Department of Ed and, Congress, they did a huge, overhaul with the FAFSA as we talked about the FAFSA simplification legislation, important work, but there's so much more to the fafsa and so I hope Congress, takes, the reins on some of these financial policies and put more strict language about verification.
'cause again, an administration can shift on how much they verify. year to year, that should not take place like that. So Congress should put some more guardrails in so that, a rogue administration, like the one we currently have, can't say a hundred percent of folks need to be verified. that could happen tomorrow.
And what could institutions do about it? So I think congress needs to do more. So I would love to as myself as an individual, but as a scholar and other organizations out there that are [00:35:00] committed to. Equities in the financial aid process, the burdens in the financial aid process to advocate for legislation to change at a federal level and a state level.
And so I definitely wanna push, for that, but continue to capture stories, continue to, collect data on what financial aid processes look like across the country so we have that clear picture for those processes beyond the FAFSA application.
Erin: Dr. Graves, I wanna thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your research, and just your perspective on all of this.
having been in, in higher ed for almost 20 years now, there's a lot that I had never even heard of. Just thank you so much for that.
Dr. Graves: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Thank you for, highlighting this issue and, shout out to the folks out there doing good work, supporting our students, supporting our institutions advocating for positive change.
So I'm all about it. And reach out in any way that I can support to all those folks listening in. And we gotta be in this together and, [00:36:00] support our students and our families in this process.
Erin: I want to turn next to our two other guests who will talk about other ways that we can support community college students in paying for their education and training. In particular, we are going to talk about a unique approach to financial literacy training in community colleges and the new workforce Pell, which was approved as part of the one big beautiful Bill Act earlier this year.
Welcome to Spotlight on Community Colleges, Dr. Matthew Mayhew and Dr. Courtney DeRoche.
Dr. Matthew Mayhew is the William Ray and Marie Adamson Fletcher, professor of Educational Administration at the Ohio State University. With a focus on higher education and student affairs, he's focused his research on examining the relationship between college and its influence on student learning and democratic outcome. Among his many grant funded projects is the Edicts Project, or Enhancing Diversity in Career and Technical STEM Project focus on increasing diverse student [00:37:00] representation in automotive technical fields in community colleges around the United States.
Dr. Courtney De Roche is a postdoctoral scholar who collaborates with Dr. Mayhew on this project. Dr. De Roche, along with their colleague Dr. Emily Kremer, have recently. Publish some findings from this work called Drive to Thrive Student Success and Career and Technical STEM Education. We will provide a link in the show notes for this episode.
I'd like to welcome you two to Spotlight on Community Colleges.
So Dr. DeRoche, I'll begin with you. Can you tell our listeners about the Drive to Thrive report that you've recently co-authored with your team?
Dr. DeRoche: Yes.
First of all, thanks for having us. It's really great to be in conversation with you all. community College Daily published our piece. Enrollments are up, but can students afford to Stay last week? And it speaks to the significant changes in financial aid that we're seeing from the federal government and what impacts those changes might have on community [00:38:00] colleges and their students.
As your audience knows, in recent years, community colleges have experienced the largest growth in enrollment of any higher education sector. Notably, surges in career and technical fields like construction and automotive technology are driving much of this growth in enrollment. But with recent policy changes out of Washington, it's not clear whether and how these students will afford to stay enrolled in their programs.
Even though community college remains one of the most cost effective options for college, we know that many students still struggle to make ends meet while they're still in school. Recent federal changes bring mixed forecast for students in 2026. There are some negatives, like the added red tape around accessing food assistance programming and positives as well, like the expansion of Pell Grants to short-term workforce programming.
Our team at the College Impact Laboratory is taking important steps in understanding and improving these students' [00:39:00] financial realities. The article that you mentioned, spotlights the Drive to Thrive project, which is a national mixed method study on automotive technology programs at US community colleges.
This work has been made possible thanks to generous funding from the ECMC Foundation, and we've really got three main goals with the project. First to evaluate automotive technology students overall financial wellness and knowledge about their personal finances. Second to investigate how financial literacy curriculum relates to positive outcomes for these students, and finally, to develop recommendations for automotive technology programs to improve their student retention, degree completion, and workforce entry.
One program in particular, the Ford Asset Program stands out as an industry leader that's demonstrating how innovative partnerships between industry and higher education can really meet the moment that we're all living through the Ford Automotive Student Service Education Training [00:40:00] Program or Ford asset for short.
Is a two year associate degree program that allows students to earn certifications and gain work experience while they're enrolled in a two year associate degree program. It's been around for 40 years. They're celebrating their 40th anniversary this year, and over that time period they've graduated over 10,000 students, through the Ford Asset Program.
Students spend half their time on campus learning from highly trained automotive professionals, and the other half working at a Ford or Lincoln dealership to gain hands-on work experience there. The internship period at the dealership is paid, so students quote unquote, earn while they learn this structure is incredibly helpful in offsetting the cost of college for students that we've heard so much about.
Preliminary results from our study show that Ford asset students have lower debt burdens than their peers in similar automotive technology programs. Beyond that Ford Motor [00:41:00] Company and their local businesses have really stepped up to further offset these costs for students. For example, Ford offers a $2,500 tuition scholarship to students after they've completed their first semester.
And the local dealerships where students are completing their internships often help out with expenses related to tools or gas for commuting, things like that. When these Ford specific funding opportunities are combined with scholarships and grants from the community college students end up with a much more affordable education than they would've otherwise received.
And so we're really seeing that. As we mentioned, Ford is a leader in the field here and setting an example for other, work workforce training programs that are affected by these federal changes.
Erin: So Dr. Mayhew, Dr. DeRoche just talked about how comprehensive this is and it, and, thinking really expansively about student need. And from what I'm hearing, a key part of the Edicts [00:42:00] project, has been in providing financial literacy support and curriculum to students and in providing direct support to participating students.
she also mentioned. Thinking through things like food insecurity and, even it sounded like transportation needs and just all of these different things. so aside from just having students take out student loans, like how did you identify those needs? What and how is that meeting the needs of all of these students?
Dr. Mayhew: it's a great question and I would like to just, express a lot of gratitude for folks like yourself and other community college experts in the field because what we were able to do after we, developed this partnership with ECMC and with Ford and with MarketSource, which is a company that helps bring everybody together.
Was draw on the good work that you all did to design an effective intervention that not only helps these students graduate on time, not adding time to [00:43:00] degree certified in how to diagnose Ford engine problems and land higher paying jobs at local Ford dealerships. What we learned along the way was that these students, the number one struggle they have.
Is finance number one without a doubt. And so what we were able to do with ECMC and with Ford and everybody else is say, okay. How is this intervention, the salient features of this intervention gonna speak to that financial need? So we actually are able to give students an activities scholarship for talking to us, and we're able to give them actual checks, real money for them to be able to use it for whatever they need to, whether it's gas, whether it's childcare.
Some of these students, they work in a dealership all day. And then they have to commute. And so they just have all of these issues having to just live their basic lives out. And so a lot of what we did was we tried to think about, okay, if we have these, like this intervention, what are the financial [00:44:00] aspects of it?
So we're able to give students actual real money. We're also able to compensate the community college. for all the time it takes to set up our visits and all of those kinds of things. And so again, ECMC, we're able to, because of their generous funding, we're able to give some of that money to the community colleges themselves.
And then finally, we're able to give it to the people who are instructing these students, on how to diagnose these Ford Engine problems because they're the ones, Erin, who are actually giving us the class time. To come in and do the interventions. Okay. And so we're able to through good partnerships, design a financial intervention for these students themselves.
Now, I will say this as well, part of what we're doing is also educating them on how to use their finances. Responsibly. So I have a daughter, she's 14 and she loves Lululemon. [00:45:00] So to keep up with the Joneses, we have to go to Lululemon. And Lululemon is very, is extremely unaffordable. So she ends up getting these little bags and whatever that we can actually, afford.
And she gets a little bag to take home. So keeping up with the Joneses, if you will, for her, involves Lululemon for these automotive technicians, these students in community colleges. Keeping up with the Joneses for them is buying the newest Ford truck, even if they can't afford it, having the best tools, which are thousands of dollars of investment, even if they can't afford it.
And so what they're doing is they're coming to us saying. Yes, money's important. We want to own our own dealerships Someday. We're grateful that Ford is paying some of them to be in class. Some of the internships actually pay these students to take the courses at the community college. Some don't. with their internships, they are paid.
So they're, grateful for that. But after they [00:46:00] get all of this money, guess what, Erin? They're spending it on things they can't afford. And so we're coming in and saying, okay. Listen, we, know that there's a financial issue here. We actually had an expert in automotive technical training, and finance, come and deliver an intervention for us.
so he tailored the intervention for these students specifically and their needs. And we're able to not only show them things like if you invest $50 a month into this calculator, that will show you over time you'll be a millionaire by the time you're, 60 or 70 or whatever that looks like.
We're able to do that and we're able to do some hands-on learning with them on how to put a budget together. Here are the resources, here are the software. Download this right now. Now put in this check right now. So we're. Delivering this intervention, the, educational components behind the financial intervention as well as the finances to the students themselves.
So [00:47:00] we like to say, educate and compensate, right? So that's, what we're doing. and ultimately we're hoping to elevate, the students' experience by do it, by putting those things together.
Erin: Wow. That's. That's fascinating. educate and compensate and that is, very much a model for what good partnerships look like and to even think about the ways that we compensate folks for their time and expertise and effort and, the ways that they pour into those students.
In the opening I referenced the big beautiful bill, which was signed in July, 2025. one new program created under this bill was the Workforce Pell Program, which was something that was long fought for long, supported by community college practitioners and administrators, and it will extend students' eligibility for aid in short-term education programs.
The program is scheduled to go into effect in the summer of 2026. How does the work with projects like [00:48:00] this with, some of the work that ECMC for instance, is funding? Like how do those provide insight for how workforce Pell might impact students in career and technical education?
Dr. DeRoche: It's a really great question.
unfortunately there's no crystal ball to tell us exactly how federal changes will play out for these students. because the community college, student population is so diverse from so many different backgrounds, we can expect that some students will be more directly affected by these changes than others.
For example, those students who rely on food assistance programs like SNAP will probably encounter difficulties keeping their benefits. Due to, expanded work reporting requirements where students are now required to report 80 hours of work per month, and that might not be possible for some students when they're on campus in classes full-time for some of these sort of split structure programs that we were speaking about.
And even if some, if these students manage to keep their benefits, [00:49:00] the benefit increases have stalled, which means that the money they're receiving is not gonna stretch as far at the grocery store. looking ahead, at least in terms of the food assistance programs point, the OBBA. O-B-B-B-A has pushed much of the responsibility for funding these programs to states.
So I think we're gonna see widening gaps between states where those states that have existing infrastructure to handle food assistance will likely do a better job by their community college students. in terms of workforce Pell, I think it's going to push colleges, especially community colleges with growing CTE programs to strengthen their ties with industry.
Industry is gonna have to step up to help colleges build their curriculum, a curriculum that matches industry certification requirements, and provide ample internship opportunities at their local businesses there. These industries, these manufacturers are gonna have to do the [00:50:00] leg, the legwork to explain to their franchises or business affiliates that these community college programs are building a vital workforce pipeline for decades to come and that this will take a.
Long term, investment and collaboration. In my view, I think there's at least two clear impacts of Workforce Pell or the expansion of the need-based financial aid, to workforce training programs. First, I think enrollment in career and technical programs like Fort Asset is gonna continue to grow. short term workplace training programs often act as a stepping stone.
To two year programs where a student might sign up for a year of certification trainings and then switch enrollment to a full two year program. So I think we're gonna see an increase there. And second, I think we're gonna see certain industry leaders like Ford Step up their efforts to create a standardized national program experience for their community college partners.[00:51:00]
Currently, each college has a unique approach to building these kinds of programs and absent a national system, curriculum and training can vary widely across institution. And so I think to ensure that workforce Pell is successful at a national level, industry has to step up to the plate to build long-term plans to support their next generation of employees and workers.
I think for me, one question that remains is how will states track the outcome of these programs? For example, how are we gonna measure employment data for these program graduates to determine whether or not the program itself is successful? And what impact will those statistical choices have on the college's future Pell eligibility?
Will eligibility be tied to these sort of statistical choices in measuring employment outcomes? And I think that's why the work that we're doing at the College Impact Laboratory is so important. We're [00:52:00] working towards strengthening these industry education partnerships. By building bridges between manufacturers, their businesses, and the community colleges themselves, and we're building out that research infrastructure to be able to assess how these changes out of Washington are really impacting our college, our community colleges.
Erin: And I just wanna to reiterate for our listeners, and Dr. Mayhew, this might be some, a quick point of clarification for you. You all are now in a second phase of a grant where you're really working on scaling up and making the work of the College Impact Laboratory
national and taking it to hopefully as many community colleges as possible. Correct.
Dr. Mayhew: Yeah, actually that's the next phase. So the first phase was really to start off with exemplary institutions and there were four identified to go in and really test the waters with regard to the interventions. And once we were able to show that the interventions that we designed actually did work, and by work it increased, [00:53:00] persistence toward degree at increased graduation rate.
It did all what we were hoping it was gonna do. Then we were able to take that and refine it, of course, based on the data and go and, expand it to the other community colleges that were in or a part of the asset program. There are about 40 of those. So now we're trying to get in those, all of those schools to help those students out from this now.
What we hopefully will do in the future is understand that there are more than just Ford asset students at community colleges. there are other automotive partners to work with and now we can take the intervention and try to expand it to the other community colleges that might have relationships with other auto dealers to say, hey.
Here's what we've got. We know it works. We want to come in and do it for your students because the students are the ones who make the gains. And guess who also makes the gains? So local dealerships, because these students are graduating now equipped with the knowledge that they [00:54:00] need to be more successful employees.
and so we're hopeful that the next phase is really gonna expand this beyond the 40 schools that we're working with. And, there is something special about these students, and I think that what we've learned about these students is very important to think about in terms of the context of how we think about education.
And Erin, this is where your work is so important in the work of others. when we talked to these students, they all said that ultimately they'd love to own their own local dealerships, but they feel like the curricular part of their experience by way of their required courses at community colleges are not doing much to help them.
Pursue or achieve that goal. So there might be taking geometry for example, instead of taking business math, which talks about tax codes and teaches them how to use Excel spreadsheets and all of these things, they might be taking an English course that's teaching [00:55:00] them about sonnets and Shakespeare, when really what they want to do is be able to communicate.
on, on a engine diagnosis, write out the report in ways that are very efficient and clear and instructional. And so they need those skills and those aren't, so what's happening in the classroom for these students is not necessarily translating into what they need for their career goals. And I know you and tons of others have done work in this space, and I just, I'm so grateful for the work that you've done, but I would love to see in the expansion, not only.
Delivering the intervention for the students in these other automotive tech programs, but also somehow getting in front of the community colleges themselves to reiterate or reinforce the messages that you and other experts have been saying about let's make sure that these required courses are meeting the needs of the students when they come.
When they come to the classroom, because otherwise they disengage and they actually feel as though the only reason that they're at the community [00:56:00] college, we heard this a lot in the interviews, is for the certification at Ford. And then everything else they just have to do because it's not relevant to what they wanna do.
and so that, just hurts. It hurts a little bit as an educator to be like, ah, so the, part of the, experience that we can design. For you, the part of this experience that we can really hit home and, try to meet your needs is the part that you, resist, because you don't see it as relevant.
So I'm hopeful that the next phase is, I know it's a long-winded answer, but when you ask an old professor a question, you're gonna get a long-winded answer. is How do we take the automotive, the curriculum for these, automotive technical students beyond just the Ford Asset Program?
That's number one. But number two, how do we expand the knowledge that we've gleaned from thousands of students at this point, into the, brain trust of the people making decisions about the required course experience at community college.
Erin: As a college teaching and learning scholar, I can't tell [00:57:00] you how that point makes my heart sing.
And also just shout out to scholars like Mike Rose, who talk so much about that. And, really remind us how much we need to listen to our students and, how much we hope that we can invite our students into their own learning process like that. So I have.
Invited folks to check out the Community College Daily Commentary. But there was one part of it, and I shared this with you, Matt, via text message the other day because I, it really stopped me in my tracks. And I want to share that with our readers. in it you say, quote, community colleges are not just stabilizing us, higher education, enrollment, they are powering it.
But if this recovery is to endure, growth alone will not be enough. We must ensure that students in this nation's burgeoning CTE sector can enroll, persist, graduate, and thrive financially. End quote. That's a particularly powerful reminder [00:58:00] for folks to remember the important work that community colleges provide for CTE and for local workforce development.
I know that as a scholar myself, I tend to focus on transfer a whole lot and, that we don't. necessarily know just the, breadth and depth of work that goes on in CTE. And is there anything that either one of you would want to add for scholars, for scholar practitioners who may not be as familiar with CTE programs and, want to know more about the important work that is done in, the, that sector?
Dr. Mayhew: Yeah, I could go first. And then Courtney, please, fill in the gaps here. yeah, I think that everybody needs to understand that these students are hardworking, that these students are gonna be the people who take care of society because we all have cars, we all have needs. I'm certainly not gonna change an engine.
I, or cheesy oil in an [00:59:00] engine, right? I don't know how. And these people actually do, and they really do serve so many of us. And I think first of all, getting it in people's minds that college students are not just the Harvard student walking around these beautiful fields. That college actually is a place for all people and people from all walks of life.
People that we need, and people that we need to listen to. And I feel like the, particulars around the CTE programs that we looked at, again, reinforcing the idea that partnerships are so important, right? the, if you went to one of these, schools, Erin, and you probably have visited, they have warehouses where local dealers donate cars.
So that these people can work on the engines at the community colleges. And when you, we've observed this, it's powerful to watch these students learn in the classroom about a problem, to talk to the faculty who [01:00:00] bugged the engines with that problem, and then to watch students in teams. Very diverse teams, let me emphasize, go in and work with each other to diagnose the issue and then to work with each other on how to communicate and write it up, and then work with each other on going to the next engine, which is a different model and make of a car, and trying to figure that one out too.
You are seeing learning happen in amazing ways. I have the chills. The hairs on my arm are standing up and I'm telling you that As somebody who looks at, thinks about college a lot and who thinks about the college student a lot, just observing what they're doing on a daily basis and observing the educators in those spaces, help them out and say, no, it's over here and no, you should be looking over here.
That's the first thing you need to do. This is real learning. It's real learning and to have sus like people just walking around thinking that college is all about Harvard and what's going on in Harvard. It's no, that's not all that college is about. Please get that out of your mind. [01:01:00] Get into your mind.
The people who are doing the work on the things that we don't know how to do. So I would, just say that every student population is distinctive. There are some standards that we can apply that we hope the student experience would, we would be able to design experiences that are well suited for students, but we have to nuance them and complicate them to the students who are pro or presenting.
And these students want education. They wanna learn how to debug the engines. They love coming to class to learn that material. And they're working together and thriving together in these teams. And the local dealers are all invested totally in these students because they're paying for their internships, a lot of them.
and they get hired at higher salaries because now they're certified. So it's just, it's a win, win, But I think the partners, the, partnership piece is so important, and it wouldn't be a win, win if it weren't for ECMC. And Market Source and Ford and Ohio State coming together with the community colleges to ensure that [01:02:00] we are able to provide environments where students succeed.
Courtney?.
Dr. DeRoche: Yeah, I, think that's great. And I agree. I, two points that I would, close with is, first I think that, there has been some talk about, uncertainty about faculty buy-in, whether or not. The instructors at the community colleges will actually buy into these short term workforce training programs, and what we're seeing with Ford Asset is really that the instructors are the drivers of these programs.
They are some of the most motivated and talented folks in the field. The students have really nothing but glowing praise for all of their instructors. And, I think that the Ford asset model shows what, industry investment can really do for community colleges in this space because many of the asset faculty are actually graduates of the programs themselves.
So the program is not only creating a workforce pipeline, but it's creating an instructor pipeline as well. And [01:03:00] so those instructors are not only, experts in the field, but they also understand what it means to be a Ford asset student. And they can relate to students on that level. And so I think the point that I'd like to close with is that Ford has really given us a model, we call it a Model A in the article instead of a Model T.
but they really provided a model of what a successful workforce training program can look like and how after just a few years. There is a real feedback loop of students who loved their experience so much that they wanna return as teachers or instructors or, internship supervisors at the dealerships where they're working.
And there may be, a few years here in the beginning where there's gonna be a heavy lift for community colleges and our industry partners, but I do think that the payoff is clear.
Erin: I want to thank you both so much for sharing all of this with us. That it's, it is not [01:04:00] just about college affordability, it's about all of these different parts, the partnerships that go into it. So Matt, I got the chills when, talking about how the instructors are, were asset students themselves.
That is incredibly cool and, exactly what it is all about. So I want to thank you both. I want to encourage everybody to check out the Drive to Thrive report, to check out the community college daily, commentary, and then just to keep an eye out on this incredible work that is going on. Thank you so much for being here.
Dr. Mayhew: Thank you, Erin.
Dr. DeRoche: Thank you.
Speaker: I would like to thank our guests, Dr. Matthew Mayhew, Dr. Courtney DeRoche, and Dr. Devon Graves for sharing their insights and experiences. And also thank you to our listeners for checking out this new episode of Spotlight on Community Colleges.
In our next episode, we'll be discussing community college trustees and [01:05:00] a huge new report from the Association of Community College Trustees and the Center for the Study of Community Colleges that sheds light on who these people are, what they care about, and how they are working to support their institutions and the success of their students. That episode will air on Wednesday, November 19th. Until then, keep up the good work that you do to strengthen community colleges and to support their incredible students.
This is Spotlight on community colleges.
Now, here are your hosts, Drs. Erin Doran, Carrie B. Kisker, and Brett Ranon Nachman.
Erin: Welcome to Spotlight on Community Colleges. My name is Erin Doran, and I'm joined today with my fellow co-host, Dr. Brett Ranon Nachman . Did you know that the American Association of Community Colleges reported in their 2025 fast facts that 55% of community college students received some type of financial aid? While community colleges remain one [00:01:00] of the most cost effective choices for students pursuing a post-secondary degree or credential, paying out of pocket may not always be an option.
However, the financial aid system can be daunting for students unfamiliar with it, and there have been some significant changes to the financial aid system in the last few years. For example, in the 20 24, 20 25 academic year, there was a major update to the free application for financial student aid or fafsa, as we commonly know it.
The FAFSA simplification was meant to make the application process easier for students and their families. However, as was widely reported, the rollout of the new application in December, 2023 caused mass delays and confusion for applicants and their families. This past summer, higher Education Advocates kept a close eye on the passage of the one big beautiful Bill to see what cuts, if any, would be made to the Pell Grant program, which many students from low income backgrounds utilize.
Our guests today are [00:02:00] discussing some of the financial aid issues impacting community colleges and their students. In particular, we are going to talk about some of the challenges and opportunities inherent in financial aid and student's ability to pay for college. Including the challenges in income verification and making satisfactory academic progress.
We'll also talk about some opportunities including workforce, Pell and creative approaches to helping students pay for their education while at the same time engaging them in financial literacy training.
Today's guests are Dr. Matthew Mayhew, Dr. Courtney DeRoche, and Dr. Devon Graves.
Dr. Graves is an assistant professor of community college leadership at North Carolina State University, where he researches the racial disparities faced by students of color in American higher education. His research is primarily focused on uncovering the inequities that students encounter in the financial aid process.
We encourage you to check out Dr. Graves research, which has been [00:03:00] published in leading academic journals such as The Journal of Higher Education, the Journal of Diversity in Higher Education, new Directions for Community Colleges, and the Journal of Student Financial Aid. Dr. Graves welcome to Spotlight on Community Colleges.
A big part of your research is on community college students, specifically students from minoritized backgrounds and their experience with the income verification process in financial aid.
Can you briefly explain to us what that is and why it matters?
Dr. Graves: Yeah. Thank you so much for the question and thank you for having me. first off, what income verification is, it's the process where the US Department of Education verifies the information that students and families provide on the FAFSA application and what the department does, they have an algorithm that flags applications.
And they send those flag files to the institutions that the student has applied to. And so they tell the institutions their financial aid offices, you need to [00:04:00] verify these students and find out if the information they provided on the FAFSA form is correct. And so institutions across the country are responsible for doing this as part of, Regulations and education code and what verification can look like. It can be anywhere from a college asking a student to submit their W twos, their tax transcripts, sometimes birth certificates to confirmed dependence. So it is this, Archaic process that requires students to prove that they need the aid that they're eligible for.
And it has existed for some time, and it has shifted in what it looks like for our students, and particularly the rate of how many students are actually selected for verification. So we've seen it as high up to 30%. We've seen it lower down to 17%. a perfect example was during the COVID-19 pandemic. The Biden administration lessened the amount of, students that were selected for verification just to help with [00:05:00] the influx of students that were seeking support during the pandemic.
income verification is this process that happens after the fafsa. We think that it's done. A student has submitted that FAFSA application. We can wash our hands of it. The family's good, okay. We now know what you're eligible for. But then suddenly they get an email from their financial aid office, their institution saying, you've been selected for verification, and we need to verify this information.
Please submit this info. Again, tax transcripts, W twos, to the financial aid office for review.
Erin: And you mentioned that the rates can vary from like 17% to 30%. Is that like of the total amount of students who are applying for financial aid every year or is that like 30% of students at an institution applying for financial aid?
Dr. Graves: That's a great question. And so it is total out of all the students that, applied, for the FAFSA and that is a sizable amount of, students and then, but at the campus level, it can [00:06:00] vary. And that's something that is a hidden curriculum when it comes to income verification. Some institutions.
Can over verify where they have the flagged applications that the Department of Education has notified them of. But an institution can go above that and say, we're gonna verify, for example, all first year students. So a community college can say, in addition to those, applications that we know, the department is requiring us to flag, we're gonna verify all first year students or first time enrolled students so we can have.
Information and know what their financial aid situation is really And so that, or over verification is something that in practice, the Financial Aid Professional Association of NASPA has spoken out against institutions not doing that, but it's up to the institution to do that. And again, the, national number of verification can look 30%, but at an, at a campus level, it could be up to a hundred percent at some times.
Erin: And is this, [00:07:00] is this meant to mitigate any sort of fraud or what is the purpose of the verification process like from the purview of the government?
Dr. Graves: Yeah, another great question and definitely essential to understand where this is coming from. So that's the point. It's to make sure people truly need, the support that they need, that their financial aid information that they provided on the FAFSA is correct.
And so it is a tool to. Stop fraud or at least make sure folks get the aid that they actually need. And it's a spectrum. So you can have folks who filled out the FAFSA form wrong and they actually were eligible for more money, but it can be on the other side where they filled it out incorrectly and now they are eligible for less money.
But from, some of the latest data. 84% of, folks who are selected for verification have no change in their aid eligibility. So it's a small amount of students that have any change at all. And so again, it's this lever that the government has [00:08:00] been using to, watch over or surveil students, in this process.
But as I've learned through my research, particularly in the community college process, the verification process can be very detrimental to our students.
Erin: And can you talk more about that? 'cause I know, just, practically speaking, how does this impact students' aid disbursement? a lot of college students, like they are waiting, counting down the days until that check is cleared. Like the tuition, payment is made. They're waiting to buy books. They might be waiting to buy a laptop to pay their rent and all of this stuff. So like, how does. Verification impact that.
Dr. Graves: Yeah, so again, verification is so unique in the community college context because for some of our students in the community college context, they're adult learners, so they're returning. so they're not familiar with, processes. They're students that are coming from high school, and so they've lost the support of a counselor or a program [00:09:00] at the high school level.
So they're trying to navigate a college for the first time. Or, they're somebody who's been out of the system for a little bit, but they're coming back with some work experience and trying to navigate and see what financial aid is, available to me. And so for those students that are selected for income verification, if they did not know they were gonna go to community college, for example, and then they apply to a college, later in the summer or at the beginning of the start of the semester because of the open access or open admission policy of institutions.
They will find out about income verification later. So we have students that find out late in summer or at the beginning of the academic term when they're finally in student mode, oh my gosh, I got this email from the financial aid office, and it's saying I need to turn in these forms. So a student who is late getting their verification process done.
It takes a lengthy review. And and sometimes you can see three to five weeks that financial aid offices will tell students when you submit these forms, it'll take three to five weeks to review. In the study that I did, it was [00:10:00] almost aid weeks. so a student who submits their. Income verification forms late, have to wait for this review to make sure that they are approved.
So once they're approved for their aid, if they missed a disbursement date at their college, this can further delay them receiving their aid. Now, why does this matter in the community college context? One thing that I found through this work is that community colleges. Disperse aid differently than what we may think of if we're coming from a university, perspective.
Typically, we see at universities, they disperse aid at the beginning of each semester. What I found is that some community colleges across our country are dispersing aid and smaller amounts, smaller increments, sometimes once a month, sometimes twice a semester. It can vary depending on the college's policies, and it seems that colleges started to do this in order.
To support students because if a student starts college and they realize it's not for them, or life is happening again, an adult [00:11:00] learner who has children or has to go back to work, if they took out some financial aid and they drop out of their classes, they'll be on the hook to repay that money to the government.
And so some institutions instituted this structured disbursement policy to help these students not take out more aid that's needed. But there's a catch with that. there's this, other side of it where if a student has, conducted verification, they got done, but they missed that initial disbursement date.
They're waiting until. A month later, at times in my work to get their financial aid. So they're sitting in class without access to money that is supposed to pay for books, parking, in some cases for cost of living to eat, to pay rent, to pay for gas. And so the structure, disbursements and income verification can turn into a double whammy that harms our students, and again, in our community colleges that are serving our most vulnerable student population.
So the disbursements and income verification are very much tied together. [00:12:00]
Erin: You have done work that is. Really at the intersection of race and, the financial aid process. And in your work, like how do students' racial identities like play into their, in interaction with the financial aid system?
Dr. Graves: Yeah, I think for me, when doing this work, I had to remain true to myself and just talk about. The research that's existed before, the scholars that have come before me have consistently found racial inequities in these processes. Whether it's income verification, whether it's FAFs application on the front end, or SAP policy, satisfactory academic progress policies on the backend.
It's typically low income students. It's typically students of color that struggle with these processes, and it's a trend. And staying true to the critical race perspective that I have is that. This is racism working well. We're seeing these, processes play out where we're [00:13:00] disadvantaging students of color particularly, and financial aid is racialized.
perfect example. Almost north of 80% of black students apply for a fafsa. there is this expectation from communities of color that there's this resource that's out there for me. And so what I've taken the step is to call these processes what they are. It's, racism working well because when we think about a student who does not need the support of financial aid, they are circumventing all these processes.
They're able to be in class and not be worried about the this outside noise that is. Can be essential to a student survival in the classroom and outside of the classroom. And particularly those are white students who have an income, advantage, who have an inheritance advantage. And this is coming from bodies of scholarship and sociology, public policy and education that have been studying this forever.
And so I really want our practitioners. Especially in the community college sector, to think about how does race play out in this? What does your [00:14:00] data say? Who is struggling in the income verification process? Who's struggling to meet SAP, who's struggling with disbursement dates? So if we know that, then maybe we can take more targeted approaches to support these specific populations.
So for example, if it is our black students, how are we getting connected to the community to inform them of these? Processes that go beyond the fafsa. How are we working with cultural centers that can be, working with students directly on this issue if students aren't comfortable going to the financial aid office, for example.
So again, our financial aid staff have to see this as a racial issue so that they can make targeted approaches to make sure these communities are supported to get the aid that they need.
Erin: I don't know if you see this in your work too. I, feel like in all of my professional experience in financial or in higher education, we've treated financial aid as very specialized like skills and knowledge set that, that others don't necessarily wanna support.
It's so nuanced. It's. So individual, it can be very [00:15:00] complex. And it, it, it sounds like, or at least what I'm hearing from you is that like we can't just say to a student, go see financial aid. Like in order to fully support a student, we have to be good agents and good stewards of the institution to help them in whatever way we can.
And what sort of advice do you give to maybe non-financial aid? Practitioners of how we support these students?
Dr. Graves: Yeah, that's a great question. and I have, some research that, showed that students in the financial aid process were going to other departments, beyond, financial aid to get support.
So they were going to their first year success center at their community college. They were going to EOP programs. They were going to programs that they were more comfortable with engaging. And so it was on this. Staff and those programs to take on that extra initiative to learn about the financial aid processes.
So I think partnership [00:16:00] across programs and departments at institutions are super important. It, has to start with financial aid. If they, remove the veil and, recognize that, of course you all are the experts, you know the policies and you're the best equipped. But we gotta recognize that sometimes our students need that support and that helping hand from other programs.
the other thing is that as faculty, we, participate in shared governance and we're always interested in holding account on issues of enrollment, issues of admissions, but we gotta get to holding account these other processes like financial aid, like a burser office.
When is, when are payments going out? How often are they going out? We need to be asking these questions. Of the administration and making sure that it's publicly accessible to students and families. That can be something that as faculty we know and understand and make sure to advocate for students in that way.
That we go and ask that question to the financial director or we ask, an A VP because we know them as a colleague or they teach in our [00:17:00] program, especially us as higher ed scholars. We definitely have some, situations like that, or a dean of students, and just say, Hey, can we find out a little bit more about the data on financial aid?
What does that look like for our students? And how can we as faculty make sure that we're supporting them in that process? So we gotta take ownership over all aspects of. Of student services, but particularly financial aid because it, students should be struggling in the classroom with the academic concepts, not the outside forces that should be supporting them to be able to engage successfully in the classroom.
We have to take ownership of that.
Brett: One thing that you're mentioning, Dr. Graves, is making me, think about one of your past pieces on Lennox, community college students and their financial aid income verification. And I remember you wrote about the, the difficulty in getting parental signatures and the role of kind of familial capital in this process, which you were just alluding to.
And I'm wondering how you make [00:18:00] sense of, the roles of family members in supporting their. Their children, whether or not they had engaged in those processes themselves. Might you have some thoughts in terms of what that looks like given the, tenuous landscape right now?
Dr. Graves: That's a great question and, it's so difficult to answer because each family is unique and make those decisions related to what support looks like.
I've seen examples where it's just the student and the parent don't have the same schedule, so they're two shift passing that night for the lack of a better phrase. And so it's just, to be there in person because the college requires the parent to sign. The, dependent form. So a student who's a dependent on is a dependent in the financial aid process is relying on their parents' income information.
So the college is requiring the parent to sign off on this verification form. So if the student and the parent have different schedules or they live in different households, that can be [00:19:00] difficult. But again, for those students that fall into that category of dependent families have to understand, and particularly parents or guardians have to understand this process includes them as well.
And until your, your child, your student gets that cash or that aid in hand, you gotta be engaged throughout that process and be asking questions and being supportive. And then also, we talk about helicopter parents, but this may be the time where being a helicopter parent is not a bad idea.
Where if you're the parent calling the financial aid office because your student doesn't have time to be waiting in line, at the beginning of the semester, maybe a financial aid office would respond differently to a parent then, necessarily a student. So parents, don't be afraid to advocate for your students to get the A that they're eligible for.
That is. Super, super important advocacy at all levels and, it's a, family affair and so owning it all is super important.
Erin: something that comes to mind, while you were talking Dr. Graves e especially in, in, in [00:20:00] understanding that knowledge is power, that there is a, hidden curriculum to financial aid structures, is also knowing what.
Mechanisms. Colleges have, maybe it's via scholarships and emergency aid via other foundations. maybe it is just emergency loans to help tide students over to get to that next disbursement period and, things like that. And it, it seems like it is extremely important, especially in maybe this era, like the, news right now seems to suggest that there has been increased verification.
This fall semester this year. And it seems like faculty, staff, advisors, leaders, should know about what other forms of aid. and that could be food pantries, that could be whatever, that could be the, transportation vouchers and things like that to help students, so that we can keep 'em in classes, we can keep 'em engaged [00:21:00] and, keep 'em safe and all that while they wait.
Dr. Graves: Yeah. one thing that makes me think of is one tool that financial aid offices has is called Professional Judgment. And it's something that's not widely talked about, but got a little bit of insight during the COVID-19 pandemic because professional judgment essentially is a student can come to the financial aid office and say, I had a change in my life circumstance, my income has changed.
my parents no longer. Talk to me and so I am not getting the support that I need anymore. I need my financial aid package to look differently. A student can go to the financial aid office and financial aid offices have a mechanism called professional judgment where they can change a student's aid package or they can approve their verification without the necessary documents that the Department of Education is required for, and each institution has the power to do that and the Department of Education.
does not have the power to, overthrow that decision of professional judgment. [00:22:00] And so one thing as a profession, there's this misconception that students are going to, flood to the financial aid office and say, oh, I had this change. I had this change. I need a professional judgment. But that's just not the case.
And the numbers didn't reflect that. During the COVID to 19 pandemic, when folks went through a major financial shift, individually, families, units. And so professional judgment is something that we need to talk more about, that we need students to know that they can be empowered to go directly to the financial aid office and say, I needed to look at my aid package and life has changed for me and I need to make an adjustment accordingly.
So that's the first thing, but two, I think you're absolutely right. Going back to what can we as faculty, what can staff advocates do at college campuses is making sure we're including statements in our syllabi about basic needs as you mentioned. Or just how to access financial aid. Who's the person to talk to that key contact information or just saying, Hey, I'm willing to be an advocate and bug for you.
So you email me and I'm happy to be the faculty [00:23:00] member to send that email, to the financial director or to a dean, to a, a vice president because a. That is being an advocate. And that usually, as we know as faculty, sometimes we get, we can move things a little bit faster than a student might be able to.
And that matters. And this matters because as another point you mentioned, the Trump administration has made it very clear that they are going to increase verification efforts. And I'm concerned that colleges and universities are gonna be emboldened to really make, the wrong decision when it comes to, This idea that students are committing fraud. The term in the financial aid world is Pell Runners. So essentially a student enrolls at a college, they receive their financial aid, they drop out and leave, and that also goes back to income verification and the structure disbursements that I mentioned. And so this discourse that is existing at the national level.
We'll have a negative impact for financial aid. And community colleges [00:24:00] are definitely always on alert because again, of that open admission, open access mission. But we have to do better by knowing our students better and understanding that, Fraud happens, but not in this, wave, a tidal wave that, we may hear in the news or that the Department of Education is stating.
So we have to be the ones to make the decision that we understand our students, we are gonna do what's best. We're gonna follow and comply with whatever laws the Department of Education is saying, but we're not gonna. Overdo it. We're not gonna be the ones to, expand upon this negative discourse because they're talking about our students.
They're talking about our, families. They're talking about our communities, and we know them the best. The Department of Education doesn't, and so we have to be the ones to stand up and make sure that we are supporting our students the best way possible through that financial aid process.
Erin: It's been a rough couple of years to be in financial aid.
I think, last, year, this time around, we were talking, the, [00:25:00] headlines around financial aid were about the fafsa, rollout and how rough that was for students for financial aid, personnel all over the country. this semester we're talking a lot about verification and things like that.
what. Aside from those things like this updated fafsa, which, has had, had some benefits, this increased verification, are there other sorts of issues that you think need more attention? for example, I will admit, I've never heard of professional judgment. I've never heard those words before.
So that's fascinating to me. But. What else should we be paying attention to?
Dr. Graves: Yeah, definitely two things. And I think, the first thing is, probably more, more the bigger one is, the government shutdown that's happening right now. That is going to have a huge impact because the Department of Education had just celebrated that they had launched the 20 26, 20 27 FAFSA application, [00:26:00] and then the government shut down.
And so that's gonna impact students who are applying to higher education, and particularly, if they have any questions. There's gonna be a delay in response because of the layoffs and the furloughs happening due to the government shutdown. But the other thing that is super important, and I found this the last time I collected data with income verification during the last government shutdown, which was 2018 to 2019.
When students are selected for verification. So if we have students this fall semester selected for income verification, they just enrolled in the community college, they found out they're eligible for financial aid, they like, oh, I gotta get, verification done. And one of those forms being asked is the tax transcripts, the IRS office is closed.
So they can't get that tax transcript. So until that IRS office is open, these students have no way to get around that unless they can, find a cop or whatever. But that was one of the things of, my local federal office, so I can go in and get my tax forms is closed, [00:27:00] and so this shutdown is going to have implications.
On folks who are applying for the FAFSA for next year and for our current students who are navigating the financial aid process. That is just something that we may be overlooking right now, but the longer this goes, the bigger impact it's gonna have on the financial aid process. And then the other thing that I think is important, a topic that we need to continue to discuss, especially in the community college context, a satisfactory academic progress.
It's been so nice to have conversations about. work, Pell for Workforce. It's been nice to have conversations about credit for prior learning, but one thing it that comes into this is financial in eligibility. If we have students that have been in a community college for, they did a semester, they didn't do so well, they dropped out, they went to work.
Now they're coming back a couple years later to that college. That college is gonna have their transcript, and if they didn't do well and they got below a 2.0 GPA, they're no longer eligible for financial aid. But this now, this semester, they're getting a [00:28:00] 4.0. Life is going well. They're still not eligible for financial aid.
So SAP harms students, particularly in the community college context, that when we have this open access and open admission where students can have life circumstances, be in unique situations that. Requires them to be more nimble than a student that can go straight through a program. We have to look at how can we advocate for federal policy that takes that to into account, because we have probably have students out there that are eligible that would be eligible for financial aid if it wasn't for archaic SAP policies or for mistakes that they made earlier on in their community, college career or at another university, and they're going to a community college to start up.
So government shut down and SAP are two things. We gotta continue. To advocate for government shutdown in the immediate, and SAP for the long term.
Erin: I'm not gonna lie, I hadn't even thought about. Fafsa, you're absolutely right. My, my social media [00:29:00] feed was full last week of 26, 27. FAFSA is out, it's available.
And I hadn't even stopped to think about, department of Eds closed. Yep. and you're absolutely right. And, as we are recording, I think, what we were, we're on like day seven of the shutdown or something to that effect. It's Friday afternoon on October 10th from what I was reading this morning. It looks like this time next week, the government is still going to be shut down. So we will be heading into, completing, week two, maybe even headed into week three.
Dr. Graves: Yep. So think about those students and families that are, going through this process and, it's just not something we're, thinking about. It's just not front of mind. And so again, going back to that advocate question you'd asked before, like, how are we making sure that our institutions are being held accountable, to provide support in the interim? So if a [00:30:00] high school student is applying and they can't reach out to the department of Ed, can they reach out to their local community college or to their local university for help?
On a form, regardless if they're gonna attend that institution or not. how normal would that be? And again, as institutions of higher learning, we should take on that responsibility. we owe that to the community and, the communities we serve. And this shut down, I saw the, negative effects of the last one, for, folks in the financial aid process.
And depending on how long this goes, we may see the same thing.
Erin: And one last question, and I don't know if, you know this, what has the impact been on financial aid personnel themselves? There's always new policy, new laws to keep up with. But as I said, a few minutes ago, it's been a rough couple years to be in financial aid.
Dr. Graves: Yeah, that's a great question. And shout out to our financial aid staff. In no way do I want to paint them as, villains or bad people. They are out here working, and some of them are the strongest student advocates ever, but they [00:31:00] have a tough job. They have to comply with institutional policies, sometimes statewide policies, and then federal policies, and think about from their perspective, you have a.
interesting. It will be the word I'll use, federal government right now where a financial aid director is probably worried about, what if the Department of Ed comes in and audits the work that I've been doing as a student-centered, financial aid practitioner. So I think about the proposal, earlier, this year about, cutting the Pell Grant.
that's the largest need-based aid program in the country that would have lasting impacts on students and families and institutions. So our financial aid staff have been going through the wringer, trying to keep up with the, all the changes this administration has been throwing at them. So they are really walking a fine line between supporting the students and families.
Through the financial aid process, but also adhering to the strict federal guidelines. And again, one of those guidelines, [00:32:00] we talked about this increase in verification. Increase in verification impacts our institutions because they have to do it. And typically our community colleges are lower resourced and so they don't have as many.
Staff in a financial aid office. So they're the ones that have to go through the paperwork and they have to check it and compare it to the fafsa. So that's why sometimes it could be a lengthy review. So in no way would a financial aid office ever advocate to, keep things tough and difficult.
But I think that, again, because their hands are tied with the policies they have to follow. They are walking a tight line. So as much as we wanna hold our colleagues in the financial aid office accountable or whatever student services, out there at our, institutions, we also gotta support them and find out how we can help them.
and that's just something that as we continue to see policies change, they are gonna be trying to keep up as much as, other policies at the federal level are changing outside of education. They are, [00:33:00] in the financial aid office monitoring those policies, those statements coming down from the Office of Federal Student Aid and the broader Department of Education to see what this means for them and how is this gonna impact their department, their institution, and their students.
Erin: That's fascinating. what are you currently working on, or what are you hoping to work on in, the future in this vein on financial aid and community colleges?
Dr. Graves: Yeah, I just wanna continue to study the financial aid process again. I think, I've done a, I think, a good enough job to talk about, it's more than just submitting the FAFSA and have done work on income verification and, interested in understanding more about disbursement dates with our community colleges across the country.
I really want to know what do those dates look like and how are they communicated to our students? I'm curious how students perceive them. there are some students in prior work that have done that, like the structured disbursement, they like the aid, like a paycheck model. But then there's some who are like, Hey, look, [00:34:00] this is not the best, situation for me.
this is not gonna be beneficial for me. So I would love to continue to capture their stories. And then really the advocacy piece, the, social justice piece. the Department of Ed and, Congress, they did a huge, overhaul with the FAFSA as we talked about the FAFSA simplification legislation, important work, but there's so much more to the fafsa and so I hope Congress, takes, the reins on some of these financial policies and put more strict language about verification.
'cause again, an administration can shift on how much they verify. year to year, that should not take place like that. So Congress should put some more guardrails in so that, a rogue administration, like the one we currently have, can't say a hundred percent of folks need to be verified. that could happen tomorrow.
And what could institutions do about it? So I think congress needs to do more. So I would love to as myself as an individual, but as a scholar and other organizations out there that are [00:35:00] committed to. Equities in the financial aid process, the burdens in the financial aid process to advocate for legislation to change at a federal level and a state level.
And so I definitely wanna push, for that, but continue to capture stories, continue to, collect data on what financial aid processes look like across the country so we have that clear picture for those processes beyond the FAFSA application.
Erin: Dr. Graves, I wanna thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your research, and just your perspective on all of this.
having been in, in higher ed for almost 20 years now, there's a lot that I had never even heard of. Just thank you so much for that.
Dr. Graves: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Thank you for, highlighting this issue and, shout out to the folks out there doing good work, supporting our students, supporting our institutions advocating for positive change.
So I'm all about it. And reach out in any way that I can support to all those folks listening in. And we gotta be in this together and, [00:36:00] support our students and our families in this process.
Erin: I want to turn next to our two other guests who will talk about other ways that we can support community college students in paying for their education and training. In particular, we are going to talk about a unique approach to financial literacy training in community colleges and the new workforce Pell, which was approved as part of the one big beautiful Bill Act earlier this year.
Welcome to Spotlight on Community Colleges, Dr. Matthew Mayhew and Dr. Courtney DeRoche.
Dr. Matthew Mayhew is the William Ray and Marie Adamson Fletcher, professor of Educational Administration at the Ohio State University. With a focus on higher education and student affairs, he's focused his research on examining the relationship between college and its influence on student learning and democratic outcome. Among his many grant funded projects is the Edicts Project, or Enhancing Diversity in Career and Technical STEM Project focus on increasing diverse student [00:37:00] representation in automotive technical fields in community colleges around the United States.
Dr. Courtney De Roche is a postdoctoral scholar who collaborates with Dr. Mayhew on this project. Dr. De Roche, along with their colleague Dr. Emily Kremer, have recently. Publish some findings from this work called Drive to Thrive Student Success and Career and Technical STEM Education. We will provide a link in the show notes for this episode.
I'd like to welcome you two to Spotlight on Community Colleges.
So Dr. DeRoche, I'll begin with you. Can you tell our listeners about the Drive to Thrive report that you've recently co-authored with your team?
Dr. DeRoche: Yes.
First of all, thanks for having us. It's really great to be in conversation with you all. community College Daily published our piece. Enrollments are up, but can students afford to Stay last week? And it speaks to the significant changes in financial aid that we're seeing from the federal government and what impacts those changes might have on community [00:38:00] colleges and their students.
As your audience knows, in recent years, community colleges have experienced the largest growth in enrollment of any higher education sector. Notably, surges in career and technical fields like construction and automotive technology are driving much of this growth in enrollment. But with recent policy changes out of Washington, it's not clear whether and how these students will afford to stay enrolled in their programs.
Even though community college remains one of the most cost effective options for college, we know that many students still struggle to make ends meet while they're still in school. Recent federal changes bring mixed forecast for students in 2026. There are some negatives, like the added red tape around accessing food assistance programming and positives as well, like the expansion of Pell Grants to short-term workforce programming.
Our team at the College Impact Laboratory is taking important steps in understanding and improving these students' [00:39:00] financial realities. The article that you mentioned, spotlights the Drive to Thrive project, which is a national mixed method study on automotive technology programs at US community colleges.
This work has been made possible thanks to generous funding from the ECMC Foundation, and we've really got three main goals with the project. First to evaluate automotive technology students overall financial wellness and knowledge about their personal finances. Second to investigate how financial literacy curriculum relates to positive outcomes for these students, and finally, to develop recommendations for automotive technology programs to improve their student retention, degree completion, and workforce entry.
One program in particular, the Ford Asset Program stands out as an industry leader that's demonstrating how innovative partnerships between industry and higher education can really meet the moment that we're all living through the Ford Automotive Student Service Education Training [00:40:00] Program or Ford asset for short.
Is a two year associate degree program that allows students to earn certifications and gain work experience while they're enrolled in a two year associate degree program. It's been around for 40 years. They're celebrating their 40th anniversary this year, and over that time period they've graduated over 10,000 students, through the Ford Asset Program.
Students spend half their time on campus learning from highly trained automotive professionals, and the other half working at a Ford or Lincoln dealership to gain hands-on work experience there. The internship period at the dealership is paid, so students quote unquote, earn while they learn this structure is incredibly helpful in offsetting the cost of college for students that we've heard so much about.
Preliminary results from our study show that Ford asset students have lower debt burdens than their peers in similar automotive technology programs. Beyond that Ford Motor [00:41:00] Company and their local businesses have really stepped up to further offset these costs for students. For example, Ford offers a $2,500 tuition scholarship to students after they've completed their first semester.
And the local dealerships where students are completing their internships often help out with expenses related to tools or gas for commuting, things like that. When these Ford specific funding opportunities are combined with scholarships and grants from the community college students end up with a much more affordable education than they would've otherwise received.
And so we're really seeing that. As we mentioned, Ford is a leader in the field here and setting an example for other, work workforce training programs that are affected by these federal changes.
Erin: So Dr. Mayhew, Dr. DeRoche just talked about how comprehensive this is and it, and, thinking really expansively about student need. And from what I'm hearing, a key part of the Edicts [00:42:00] project, has been in providing financial literacy support and curriculum to students and in providing direct support to participating students.
she also mentioned. Thinking through things like food insecurity and, even it sounded like transportation needs and just all of these different things. so aside from just having students take out student loans, like how did you identify those needs? What and how is that meeting the needs of all of these students?
Dr. Mayhew: it's a great question and I would like to just, express a lot of gratitude for folks like yourself and other community college experts in the field because what we were able to do after we, developed this partnership with ECMC and with Ford and with MarketSource, which is a company that helps bring everybody together.
Was draw on the good work that you all did to design an effective intervention that not only helps these students graduate on time, not adding time to [00:43:00] degree certified in how to diagnose Ford engine problems and land higher paying jobs at local Ford dealerships. What we learned along the way was that these students, the number one struggle they have.
Is finance number one without a doubt. And so what we were able to do with ECMC and with Ford and everybody else is say, okay. How is this intervention, the salient features of this intervention gonna speak to that financial need? So we actually are able to give students an activities scholarship for talking to us, and we're able to give them actual checks, real money for them to be able to use it for whatever they need to, whether it's gas, whether it's childcare.
Some of these students, they work in a dealership all day. And then they have to commute. And so they just have all of these issues having to just live their basic lives out. And so a lot of what we did was we tried to think about, okay, if we have these, like this intervention, what are the financial [00:44:00] aspects of it?
So we're able to give students actual real money. We're also able to compensate the community college. for all the time it takes to set up our visits and all of those kinds of things. And so again, ECMC, we're able to, because of their generous funding, we're able to give some of that money to the community colleges themselves.
And then finally, we're able to give it to the people who are instructing these students, on how to diagnose these Ford Engine problems because they're the ones, Erin, who are actually giving us the class time. To come in and do the interventions. Okay. And so we're able to through good partnerships, design a financial intervention for these students themselves.
Now, I will say this as well, part of what we're doing is also educating them on how to use their finances. Responsibly. So I have a daughter, she's 14 and she loves Lululemon. [00:45:00] So to keep up with the Joneses, we have to go to Lululemon. And Lululemon is very, is extremely unaffordable. So she ends up getting these little bags and whatever that we can actually, afford.
And she gets a little bag to take home. So keeping up with the Joneses, if you will, for her, involves Lululemon for these automotive technicians, these students in community colleges. Keeping up with the Joneses for them is buying the newest Ford truck, even if they can't afford it, having the best tools, which are thousands of dollars of investment, even if they can't afford it.
And so what they're doing is they're coming to us saying. Yes, money's important. We want to own our own dealerships Someday. We're grateful that Ford is paying some of them to be in class. Some of the internships actually pay these students to take the courses at the community college. Some don't. with their internships, they are paid.
So they're, grateful for that. But after they [00:46:00] get all of this money, guess what, Erin? They're spending it on things they can't afford. And so we're coming in and saying, okay. Listen, we, know that there's a financial issue here. We actually had an expert in automotive technical training, and finance, come and deliver an intervention for us.
so he tailored the intervention for these students specifically and their needs. And we're able to not only show them things like if you invest $50 a month into this calculator, that will show you over time you'll be a millionaire by the time you're, 60 or 70 or whatever that looks like.
We're able to do that and we're able to do some hands-on learning with them on how to put a budget together. Here are the resources, here are the software. Download this right now. Now put in this check right now. So we're. Delivering this intervention, the, educational components behind the financial intervention as well as the finances to the students themselves.
So [00:47:00] we like to say, educate and compensate, right? So that's, what we're doing. and ultimately we're hoping to elevate, the students' experience by do it, by putting those things together.
Erin: Wow. That's. That's fascinating. educate and compensate and that is, very much a model for what good partnerships look like and to even think about the ways that we compensate folks for their time and expertise and effort and, the ways that they pour into those students.
In the opening I referenced the big beautiful bill, which was signed in July, 2025. one new program created under this bill was the Workforce Pell Program, which was something that was long fought for long, supported by community college practitioners and administrators, and it will extend students' eligibility for aid in short-term education programs.
The program is scheduled to go into effect in the summer of 2026. How does the work with projects like [00:48:00] this with, some of the work that ECMC for instance, is funding? Like how do those provide insight for how workforce Pell might impact students in career and technical education?
Dr. DeRoche: It's a really great question.
unfortunately there's no crystal ball to tell us exactly how federal changes will play out for these students. because the community college, student population is so diverse from so many different backgrounds, we can expect that some students will be more directly affected by these changes than others.
For example, those students who rely on food assistance programs like SNAP will probably encounter difficulties keeping their benefits. Due to, expanded work reporting requirements where students are now required to report 80 hours of work per month, and that might not be possible for some students when they're on campus in classes full-time for some of these sort of split structure programs that we were speaking about.
And even if some, if these students manage to keep their benefits, [00:49:00] the benefit increases have stalled, which means that the money they're receiving is not gonna stretch as far at the grocery store. looking ahead, at least in terms of the food assistance programs point, the OBBA. O-B-B-B-A has pushed much of the responsibility for funding these programs to states.
So I think we're gonna see widening gaps between states where those states that have existing infrastructure to handle food assistance will likely do a better job by their community college students. in terms of workforce Pell, I think it's going to push colleges, especially community colleges with growing CTE programs to strengthen their ties with industry.
Industry is gonna have to step up to help colleges build their curriculum, a curriculum that matches industry certification requirements, and provide ample internship opportunities at their local businesses there. These industries, these manufacturers are gonna have to do the [00:50:00] leg, the legwork to explain to their franchises or business affiliates that these community college programs are building a vital workforce pipeline for decades to come and that this will take a.
Long term, investment and collaboration. In my view, I think there's at least two clear impacts of Workforce Pell or the expansion of the need-based financial aid, to workforce training programs. First, I think enrollment in career and technical programs like Fort Asset is gonna continue to grow. short term workplace training programs often act as a stepping stone.
To two year programs where a student might sign up for a year of certification trainings and then switch enrollment to a full two year program. So I think we're gonna see an increase there. And second, I think we're gonna see certain industry leaders like Ford Step up their efforts to create a standardized national program experience for their community college partners.[00:51:00]
Currently, each college has a unique approach to building these kinds of programs and absent a national system, curriculum and training can vary widely across institution. And so I think to ensure that workforce Pell is successful at a national level, industry has to step up to the plate to build long-term plans to support their next generation of employees and workers.
I think for me, one question that remains is how will states track the outcome of these programs? For example, how are we gonna measure employment data for these program graduates to determine whether or not the program itself is successful? And what impact will those statistical choices have on the college's future Pell eligibility?
Will eligibility be tied to these sort of statistical choices in measuring employment outcomes? And I think that's why the work that we're doing at the College Impact Laboratory is so important. We're [00:52:00] working towards strengthening these industry education partnerships. By building bridges between manufacturers, their businesses, and the community colleges themselves, and we're building out that research infrastructure to be able to assess how these changes out of Washington are really impacting our college, our community colleges.
Erin: And I just wanna to reiterate for our listeners, and Dr. Mayhew, this might be some, a quick point of clarification for you. You all are now in a second phase of a grant where you're really working on scaling up and making the work of the College Impact Laboratory
national and taking it to hopefully as many community colleges as possible. Correct.
Dr. Mayhew: Yeah, actually that's the next phase. So the first phase was really to start off with exemplary institutions and there were four identified to go in and really test the waters with regard to the interventions. And once we were able to show that the interventions that we designed actually did work, and by work it increased, [00:53:00] persistence toward degree at increased graduation rate.
It did all what we were hoping it was gonna do. Then we were able to take that and refine it, of course, based on the data and go and, expand it to the other community colleges that were in or a part of the asset program. There are about 40 of those. So now we're trying to get in those, all of those schools to help those students out from this now.
What we hopefully will do in the future is understand that there are more than just Ford asset students at community colleges. there are other automotive partners to work with and now we can take the intervention and try to expand it to the other community colleges that might have relationships with other auto dealers to say, hey.
Here's what we've got. We know it works. We want to come in and do it for your students because the students are the ones who make the gains. And guess who also makes the gains? So local dealerships, because these students are graduating now equipped with the knowledge that they [00:54:00] need to be more successful employees.
and so we're hopeful that the next phase is really gonna expand this beyond the 40 schools that we're working with. And, there is something special about these students, and I think that what we've learned about these students is very important to think about in terms of the context of how we think about education.
And Erin, this is where your work is so important in the work of others. when we talked to these students, they all said that ultimately they'd love to own their own local dealerships, but they feel like the curricular part of their experience by way of their required courses at community colleges are not doing much to help them.
Pursue or achieve that goal. So there might be taking geometry for example, instead of taking business math, which talks about tax codes and teaches them how to use Excel spreadsheets and all of these things, they might be taking an English course that's teaching [00:55:00] them about sonnets and Shakespeare, when really what they want to do is be able to communicate.
on, on a engine diagnosis, write out the report in ways that are very efficient and clear and instructional. And so they need those skills and those aren't, so what's happening in the classroom for these students is not necessarily translating into what they need for their career goals. And I know you and tons of others have done work in this space, and I just, I'm so grateful for the work that you've done, but I would love to see in the expansion, not only.
Delivering the intervention for the students in these other automotive tech programs, but also somehow getting in front of the community colleges themselves to reiterate or reinforce the messages that you and other experts have been saying about let's make sure that these required courses are meeting the needs of the students when they come.
When they come to the classroom, because otherwise they disengage and they actually feel as though the only reason that they're at the community [00:56:00] college, we heard this a lot in the interviews, is for the certification at Ford. And then everything else they just have to do because it's not relevant to what they wanna do.
and so that, just hurts. It hurts a little bit as an educator to be like, ah, so the, part of the, experience that we can design. For you, the part of this experience that we can really hit home and, try to meet your needs is the part that you, resist, because you don't see it as relevant.
So I'm hopeful that the next phase is, I know it's a long-winded answer, but when you ask an old professor a question, you're gonna get a long-winded answer. is How do we take the automotive, the curriculum for these, automotive technical students beyond just the Ford Asset Program?
That's number one. But number two, how do we expand the knowledge that we've gleaned from thousands of students at this point, into the, brain trust of the people making decisions about the required course experience at community college.
Erin: As a college teaching and learning scholar, I can't tell [00:57:00] you how that point makes my heart sing.
And also just shout out to scholars like Mike Rose, who talk so much about that. And, really remind us how much we need to listen to our students and, how much we hope that we can invite our students into their own learning process like that. So I have.
Invited folks to check out the Community College Daily Commentary. But there was one part of it, and I shared this with you, Matt, via text message the other day because I, it really stopped me in my tracks. And I want to share that with our readers. in it you say, quote, community colleges are not just stabilizing us, higher education, enrollment, they are powering it.
But if this recovery is to endure, growth alone will not be enough. We must ensure that students in this nation's burgeoning CTE sector can enroll, persist, graduate, and thrive financially. End quote. That's a particularly powerful reminder [00:58:00] for folks to remember the important work that community colleges provide for CTE and for local workforce development.
I know that as a scholar myself, I tend to focus on transfer a whole lot and, that we don't. necessarily know just the, breadth and depth of work that goes on in CTE. And is there anything that either one of you would want to add for scholars, for scholar practitioners who may not be as familiar with CTE programs and, want to know more about the important work that is done in, the, that sector?
Dr. Mayhew: Yeah, I could go first. And then Courtney, please, fill in the gaps here. yeah, I think that everybody needs to understand that these students are hardworking, that these students are gonna be the people who take care of society because we all have cars, we all have needs. I'm certainly not gonna change an engine.
I, or cheesy oil in an [00:59:00] engine, right? I don't know how. And these people actually do, and they really do serve so many of us. And I think first of all, getting it in people's minds that college students are not just the Harvard student walking around these beautiful fields. That college actually is a place for all people and people from all walks of life.
People that we need, and people that we need to listen to. And I feel like the, particulars around the CTE programs that we looked at, again, reinforcing the idea that partnerships are so important, right? the, if you went to one of these, schools, Erin, and you probably have visited, they have warehouses where local dealers donate cars.
So that these people can work on the engines at the community colleges. And when you, we've observed this, it's powerful to watch these students learn in the classroom about a problem, to talk to the faculty who [01:00:00] bugged the engines with that problem, and then to watch students in teams. Very diverse teams, let me emphasize, go in and work with each other to diagnose the issue and then to work with each other on how to communicate and write it up, and then work with each other on going to the next engine, which is a different model and make of a car, and trying to figure that one out too.
You are seeing learning happen in amazing ways. I have the chills. The hairs on my arm are standing up and I'm telling you that As somebody who looks at, thinks about college a lot and who thinks about the college student a lot, just observing what they're doing on a daily basis and observing the educators in those spaces, help them out and say, no, it's over here and no, you should be looking over here.
That's the first thing you need to do. This is real learning. It's real learning and to have sus like people just walking around thinking that college is all about Harvard and what's going on in Harvard. It's no, that's not all that college is about. Please get that out of your mind. [01:01:00] Get into your mind.
The people who are doing the work on the things that we don't know how to do. So I would, just say that every student population is distinctive. There are some standards that we can apply that we hope the student experience would, we would be able to design experiences that are well suited for students, but we have to nuance them and complicate them to the students who are pro or presenting.
And these students want education. They wanna learn how to debug the engines. They love coming to class to learn that material. And they're working together and thriving together in these teams. And the local dealers are all invested totally in these students because they're paying for their internships, a lot of them.
and they get hired at higher salaries because now they're certified. So it's just, it's a win, win, But I think the partners, the, partnership piece is so important, and it wouldn't be a win, win if it weren't for ECMC. And Market Source and Ford and Ohio State coming together with the community colleges to ensure that [01:02:00] we are able to provide environments where students succeed.
Courtney?.
Dr. DeRoche: Yeah, I, think that's great. And I agree. I, two points that I would, close with is, first I think that, there has been some talk about, uncertainty about faculty buy-in, whether or not. The instructors at the community colleges will actually buy into these short term workforce training programs, and what we're seeing with Ford Asset is really that the instructors are the drivers of these programs.
They are some of the most motivated and talented folks in the field. The students have really nothing but glowing praise for all of their instructors. And, I think that the Ford asset model shows what, industry investment can really do for community colleges in this space because many of the asset faculty are actually graduates of the programs themselves.
So the program is not only creating a workforce pipeline, but it's creating an instructor pipeline as well. And [01:03:00] so those instructors are not only, experts in the field, but they also understand what it means to be a Ford asset student. And they can relate to students on that level. And so I think the point that I'd like to close with is that Ford has really given us a model, we call it a Model A in the article instead of a Model T.
but they really provided a model of what a successful workforce training program can look like and how after just a few years. There is a real feedback loop of students who loved their experience so much that they wanna return as teachers or instructors or, internship supervisors at the dealerships where they're working.
And there may be, a few years here in the beginning where there's gonna be a heavy lift for community colleges and our industry partners, but I do think that the payoff is clear.
Erin: I want to thank you both so much for sharing all of this with us. That it's, it is not [01:04:00] just about college affordability, it's about all of these different parts, the partnerships that go into it. So Matt, I got the chills when, talking about how the instructors are, were asset students themselves.
That is incredibly cool and, exactly what it is all about. So I want to thank you both. I want to encourage everybody to check out the Drive to Thrive report, to check out the community college daily, commentary, and then just to keep an eye out on this incredible work that is going on. Thank you so much for being here.
Dr. Mayhew: Thank you, Erin.
Dr. DeRoche: Thank you.
Speaker: I would like to thank our guests, Dr. Matthew Mayhew, Dr. Courtney DeRoche, and Dr. Devon Graves for sharing their insights and experiences. And also thank you to our listeners for checking out this new episode of Spotlight on Community Colleges.
In our next episode, we'll be discussing community college trustees and [01:05:00] a huge new report from the Association of Community College Trustees and the Center for the Study of Community Colleges that sheds light on who these people are, what they care about, and how they are working to support their institutions and the success of their students. That episode will air on Wednesday, November 19th. Until then, keep up the good work that you do to strengthen community colleges and to support their incredible students.
This is Spotlight on community colleges.
