Ron Thurston: When I was running Apple stores, I never sold a computer. I never sold a phone. And this was when you had to wait in line to buy a phone. Every day we had a thousand people waiting. so I was like, I'm the leader of this building. What's the most important thing I could do right now? the most important thing I could do is go talk to those people in line and thank them. And what can I do to show my gratitude that this customer is about to spend on a phone. I don't need to sell the phone, I don't need to sell you a computer, I don't need to sell you Apple Care. But I want you to know that I appreciate your business and that my team is here to help. If you do that as a leader, you've changed the entire dynamic of the experience.
Brandon Morphew: Welcome to Spokes and Strategy, Marketing the Bicycle with Brandon Morphew and Chris Melman of Miso Partners. What makes working in a bike shop a career someone can build a life around? Not just something they do because they love bikes. Today we're talking about pride in retail. What happens when good people stop seeing a future in the work and what owners owe their teams before asking them to care more? Welcome to Spokes and Strategy, where the business of bikes meets the joy of riding. I'm your host, Brandon Morphew. Welcome. Before we get into work, we like to do what part of your life do bikes play? and I want to welcome Ron Thurston. and Ron, if bikes don't play a role in your life, is there another way that you like to get outside and reset?
Ron Thurston: Yeah, thanks Brandon. You know, I I'm a kind of traditional, more like hitting the gym, going for a run, being outside, but I will tell you I spent a year and a half living in an R V and traveling the country a couple of years ago. And it was for a book tour and and a podcast also, but like that idea of living outside, even if it's not on a bike every day, is very special and close close to my heart. Yeah. It was an incredible experience doing that.
Brandon Morphew: Is there anything that you can think of that sort of helps you make helps to ha you make you feel connected to either to a place that you're in or or maybe to the stores that you're you know you're working working with?
Ron Thurston: Yeah. I mean it's really w what I what I do anytime in in a new city, like w where's the major what are the major shopping streets, what are the centers, what are the unique kind of unseen areas? So I do a lot of research in advance and and just go meet people. You know, as as I think we'll discuss, you know, my entire career is rooted in running brick and mortar retail stores and discovering the pride that people have in this work and their careers and no matter what you're selling. you know, kind of choosing that choosing the pride in the work. And so I I always discover like what's the latest and greatest. I've probably been to eighty percent of every mall in in the US, maybe even higher than that at this point in my career.
Brandon Morphew: Well that that's a great lead in. So Ron Thurston, he spent more than thirty years leading retail teams at brands like Apple, Gap, West Elm, Saint Laurent. he's the author of Retail Pride and Human Pride and the host of Retail in America. after a career a career leading teams, Ron left New York and spent a year and a half on the road in an airstream, you just mentioned. meeting the people behind the stores. Today we're talking about what makes retail work and a career in retail worth choosing, what a good leadership team looks like for the people doing it. Ron, welcome.
Ron Thurston: Thank you so much, Brandon.
Brandon Morphew: So you've talked about watching your your I think your grandfather lead construction crews. and when he arrived at the job site, what did he do that stayed with you?
Ron Thurston: Such a such a great question. I'm I'm really glad you asked because I I did I grew up in South Lake Tahoe, California, which is a beautiful place. But my grandfather was one of I think the founding pillars of of that early development that is now South Lake Tahoe and so important. So he built some of the first grocery stores, firehouse, schoolhouses, custom homes. And ended up leading a large construction company that built all the safeway stores on the West Coast. And as the oldest grandchild, I think there was some like potential, what would you kind of c call it, like career pathing for me to go into the construction business, which I did not. But what I did is travel, started like 15, 16 years old, 17, traveling with him to job sites and watching him work. And think what was important about him in a leadership role was his ability to connect with team members in a very intentional way and watch him ask great questions, understand their names, know a little bit about their families, knew like really thankful for the work that they did to help build these beautiful stores and just his immense like connection to humans. was something I just admired and watched him do. and I don't think I understood it at the time, but I was really learning how to be a great retail leader that is so connected to the people in stores. So whether you're building the store on a construction site or you're running the store speaking to customers, this is at its core an extraordinarily human business that requires our ability to connect with humans in a very short amount of time and I literally seconds. because you don't have you don't have a lot of time with every single customer. And I think that it's a skill that I observed him do and I I really tried to to mirror in my own career.
Brandon Morphew: Was there a time when you sort of recognized that you were doing that? Like that that that was making its way into what you were doing?
Ron Thurston: Yeah, it it did. I would say that when I first became I'm a multi-store leader, I started my career at the gap. And when I f when I first got promoted to district manager, I had I think ten, eleven stores in in the LA market. And I think there's a tendency when you first become a multi-store leader to become kind of like a superstore manager. You're trying to run eleven stores. But when I realized it's actually my role is to step back and my role is to observe and Coach and connect and listen and provide tools and resources for everyone else to do their job well. When you figure you you're approaching it more from a CEO mindset of I need to provide the resources for people to do their work well, connect with them to make sure that they are engaged as as employees, and then step back, like let people do the work, let people. make their own mistakes and do do things that they feel most proud of. And yeah, I w I r I would say I was probably closer to like thirty by the time that happened, but but once I figured it out, I'm like, now I get it. Now I really understand what's going on here.
Brandon Morphew: There's so much in that too, like the autonomy. I'm I'm such a big advocate of giving people like, you know, the opportunity to learn and fail. I mean, I think that's how we learn. We
Ron Thurston: Yeah.
Brandon Morphew: we I I regularly talk about we don't we don't yell at the baby that's falling down when it's learning learning to walk. Like that's not a
Ron Thurston: Yeah.
Brandon Morphew: you know, what but we do we do get upset at at others when they're learning as adults. It seems to be we've forgotten that people have to learn how to how to walk, you know, crawl first and then before they can run. I I I there's so much in there, in that you know, in and sort of giving people value, like recognizing intrinsically like that that they're capable and and giving them the opportun I I just I think that is such a hard thing to do. Like as business owners, we often recognize that we can do it maybe better or we can do it faster
Ron Thurston: Mm-hmm.
Brandon Morphew: and there's these things. let's talk about what happens to that employee leader role and and relationship when when that value disappears, when it's when it's not there.
Ron Thurston: Yeah, so I it's it's interesting. If you take a step back, you know, outside of just you know the the bike industry, if you think about retail in general and people like it does have an outsized higher than average turnover rate. And and so you think about, well, in order for my business to be most successful, one of the things that I can do that I have likely have some or all control over. Is slowing down the rate of turnover of my team. And the way that you often do that, when you listen to employees to say when all the surveys and all the data that's out there, if you listen to really why they leave, it's not money. It's a lack of clear career path in retail. It's the number one reason people leave is a lack of a clear career path. So if you if you are someone, to your point, Brandon, who does all the work, jumps in when it looks like something's gonna go wrong. you know, kind of afraid to let them to watch them make a mistake. What you're doing is kind of diminishing their ability to grow and to grow their own career. And so the the the skill of actually sitting down with someone and saying, I really see a light in you. I really see something special. I'd love to be, if you're open to it, I'd love to be someone that helped coach and mentor you to ruin your career in this business. And And so you can take the even deeper, like where are you most comfortable? Where are you most in need of development of your competencies? Like that investment in the front line that therefore slows down turnover, likely improves things like customer loyalty. the cost, you know, the the average cost of replacing an employee is somewhere between like five and ten thousand dollars, between the cost of posting and interviewing and you think about all the time. I think on the the actual average right now is nine thousand dollars. So if you say I'm I'm going to save tens of thousands of dollars of my business straight off the bottom line by keeping my team. And I'm gonna keep my team by investing in their development. If like that for me, that mindset changes the entire dynamic of your building. And it changes the way people approach this industry that is notorious for, you know, an attitude of like, well, they're just gonna leave anyway. So why would I spend time and energy when I can actually do it better? And that it takes a lot of courage as a leader to step back and say, you know what, they they may not be here. You're right, they might not, but I'm willing to give everything I have during the time that they're with me. And the interesting thing about my career, when you say, you know, 30 plus years, I can't tell you how many people that come back to me 20 years later and say something of like, you let me do this, or you saw something in me, you gave me this stretch assignment, or you sent me to this training class, or you gave me keys to the store before I was ready. The amount of those kinds of stories, the longer you're in this industry, you realize you actually are making a big impact. You just don't know it at the time.
Brandon Morphew: you you remind me of a concept that we're we're we're sort of kicking around at the agency and and it plays into this. We we're talking about graduating team members. So graduation might look like a new role, it mo might look like a promotion. It might also look like a new job somewhere else. It might look like going but I I think the the idea of of of thinking about your y you know, and valuing this sort of the career growth and and developing the person. and versus just filling a spot on the bench or spit filling a roll. I I love that. I think there's something really valuable about this, about valuing people in that way. Let let's let's get into the the day to day. So I think like often I I get into this sort of like you know big blue sky like you know kind of visualizing the the big picture. But I I love to get zoom in, we're at a store, this is an ordinary shift Wha what kinds of things should a manager be looking for or or a store owner be thinking about with their team members?
Ron Thurston: So I'll I'll give you like my my perception of just like the the basics of this. And again, this is regardless of what of what you're selling. I think ev every shift starts with a 10-minute welcome and a 10-minute warm-up. So you would like let's update you on the business, the business for the week, the successes we've had. But it also includes some questions. Like where have you give me an example of the best customer interaction you've had this week, or what has been the most challenging one. So let's have before you even start, I just want to level set how's your day? Thank you for being here. Let's download on the business and let me receive some feedback from you. And then I'm gonna tell you about expectations for the day. So we're clear. Here's who's working, here's breaks, here's operations, things that are gonna go down. And I just think every day should start with. A great download of information versus this mysterious, you know, I'm I'm running in after school, I'm clocking in, I'm trying to figure out what I'm supposed to do today, and there's a scramble all day long of like, am I am I really part of this business? Or am I, again, a disposable part-time employee? And I think ten 10 minutes out of any leader's time is nothing. Again, if it if it creates employee retention and I would say the same thing at the end of every shift is is a checkout, is a how was your shift? How did what did you learn today? Tell me about some of your customers. give me some things that we're doing really well as a company, and give me some things that you see as as opportunities, feedback that that was observed, all of it. I think there's a a great way to start and there's a great way to finish. And then I would say the third thing from a people perspective is as a leader, it's really easy to get stuck in the office, back of house, on the phone, on the computer. It's really easy to do that when your most important role is to be out there with the customer, demonstrating what success looks like. Or if you don't do that, you're observing your team and then you're providing feedback right away. So just because you're on the floor doesn't mean you are always selling, but it does mean that you're just kind of watching what's happening or getting to know your customers. And I'll give you an an example. When I was running Apple stores, I never sold a computer. I never sold a phone. This was early phone two. This I joined at iPhone two. And this was when you had to wait in line to buy a phone. Every day we had a thousand people waiting. It was chaos. But I so I was like, Well, I'm I'm the leader of this building. What's the most important thing I could do right now? I the most important thing I could do is go talk to those people in line and and thank them. And whether it was maybe I got bottled water, I got snacks, they're sometimes they were there for like day or days. And like, well, what can I do to make to show my gratitude that this customer is about to spend at the time five, six hundred dollars, now it's more, on a phone. But I don't I don't need to sell the phone, I don't need to sell you a computer, I don't need to sell you Apple Care. But I want you to know that that I appreciate your business and that my team is here to help. If you do that as a leader, you've changed the entire dynamic of the experience. Say, my name's Ron. I'm the general manager of this building. I'm really grateful for your business today, and we're gonna be with you as soon as we can. Again, that takes seconds, but immediately you put people at ease. versus how long have I been here, what's going to happen, I don't have enough people working, I'm in panic mode. Like so that it's a long answer to your question, but I think that there's this moment always of do I choose operations or do I choose people? And I always err on the side of people because the long term investment in what you do and how you do it and what you say pays in a very long term way.
Brandon Morphew: And that that number you that you quoted, I you know, and I I I would agree that it's somewhere between five and ten thousand dollars and you said it's currently nine for bringing on a new team member. that's plenty of motivation for most folks, like if you think about it. But is there a time when this clicked for you? Like was there a moment like when because it this is very developed, like I feel like in and clearly over over time is there, you know, a a I guess like a a was it the your grandfather or was there was there some other force that sort of like got you to recognize like a a moment in time this is happening,
Ron Thurston: Yeah, I think it was probably, you know, when when I became like my very first store manager. So I was a young store manager at the Gap. and same, like relatively small team, a higher volume store in Los Angeles. But when I first had a team, I think I discovered of like this idea of I I'm I'm better served making sure everyone has what they need. versus me doing the work. And I had never, I'd only ever worked retail. I didn't work in restaurants and I didn't play sports. So like I I understand the analogies often, but I didn't actually ever experience it until I became a store manager. And I think this mantra in retail of that as as a store manager, you are an entrepreneur at heart. And that these four walls, I I am ultimately responsible the success or failure of these four walls. It doesn't matter whose name's on the outside. Maybe it's my own name, but I'm responsible for the success or failure of this business. And when you have that mindset, you think differently. You and maybe every day is not the same day. Every day you're like, well, what does my what does my team need from me today? Do they need training? Do they need to be listened to? Do they need do they need help? Do they need assistance? Would I actually be better suited unpacking boxes in the stock room? Like what's my role for the day? And some sometimes when people talk about leadership styles or this is what works, what I would say is as a leader, your style is to adapt to what your team needs every day. And that can be different every day. We're also in retail, we're in this place of in in many cases four generations of people working in the same store, all of which want a different leadership style from you. And so not only does your team need something different, but each member of your team needs something different. That's what that's what good leaders do, in my opinion.
Brandon Morphew: Anything that you would recommend I'm just thinking about that in in the moment, it's sometimes that you got so much going on, there's all these needs on the on the retail
Ron Thurston: I know.
Brandon Morphew: floor and you're getting pulled in so many directions. And, you know, we have you know lots of lots of very busy businesses listening.
Ron Thurston: I would I would say of the you know eight plus l hours that you're there, I think the best practice is every day you're going to dedicate thirty minutes. I because I think everyone can find thirty minutes. Thirty minutes of dedicated time to either personal development or development of my team. And development of your team can look like great. touch base, questions, goals, feedback, or it's self-development. Because what happens often in very busy retail world, especially owner operated, is you're not investing in yourself. You're so worried about the business that I think if you could block we'll just say 20 minutes, 20 to 30 minutes every day to development of your team and or self development, you change your perspective of what that means. You know, it's often like people that dedicate the first half an hour that they're up in the morning to meditation or journaling or like th those kinds of personal behaviors over time create significant change. And I think it's the same thing in leadership. It's so easy in this business to n invest in everything except yourself. And that that could be podcasts, it could be books, it could be watching know some kind of training videos on YouTube. There's variety of of that. But I think the best practices are that you've blocked time. And and when that when when you don't have it, you're going to miss it after a while. And your team's gonna be like, well we haven't had a touch base in a while, Brandon. Like what happened? Like why why don't we have that? Because your team's going to get used to you being more available to them. And again I n nothing changes someone's decision about leaving in a more positive way than a great relationship with their direct manager.
Brandon Morphew: it compounds exponentially over time. And I think, you know, you build these and I think a half an hour is very reasonable. That that amount of time is is a is a manageable. And I think holding ourselves accountable to, you know, the 15 minute, you know, pregame and the and the 15 minute post game, you know, recap, those are manageable, real functional tools that I think could move the needle for a lot of businesses. It also gives you a chance to reflect on lot of things that are going on in your business. So I appreciate that. Thank you very much. I want to get back to this Airstream RV journey that you you did.
Ron Thurston: Okay.
Brandon Morphew: You traveled you traveled the the country and if if you if you wouldn't mind so share a little bit about that journey and then moving from there like what did you hear on the road that that was sort of different than what you were hearing maybe in conversations with other leaders and and sort of in the boardroom.
Ron Thurston: Yeah, I'd yeah, I'd love to. So I I had been you know a a a retailer, manager, leader, executive all all the way up and through middle of twenty twenty one. And at that point, Retail Pride, my first book, it was a bestseller and and doing very well. I feel like Retail Pride is the first book ever written specifically for the front lines of retail. And it's written in for store really store manager and below. Can be for owners, but I really think about this book as the language that people use when they are asked, What do you do? It's you often how I start if I'm keynoting at a conference. My first question is, What do you do? And if it's a retail audience, you often say, Well, I just work in retail. and I I really want to change that mantra often of we don't just work in retail. we're business owners and we're entrepreneurs and we're HR managers and we're operators and the list is quite long. So the the point is that I w I actually wanted to then I lived in New York City. I wanted to see if what I believed to be true was actually true outside of people that worked for me. Like could could I find this same level of pride in strangers across the country. And it And what I believed at the time and I still do is you you can't have honest conversation remotely when you're trying to get to the truth. I needed to go meet people where they are. And you know, th not in New York City, but all over the country. And it in my mind, I'm like, the best way I can do that is to live on the road full time and and meet them. And to the it really became a both a tour for retail pride. So I did a lot of in-store book signing events and meeting teams, talking to teams, and then also interviewing people for for the show. And this idea of what I discovered was that people are very proud to work in retail, primarily because of the impact that they have on the careers of the people that work for them, like the financial impact and the impact they have on their local communities. And how how they serve their community, how they engage with it, maybe donate to it, how they hire the the teams in local cities. There's so much pride in that business that it isn't just another store. It's actually a place where magic happens and local goods are sold and people get jobs. And whether it's Walmart or whether it's small business. And there there's a this immense amount of pride around serving my community. And that you don't really feel that in New York, to be honest. Like New York City is you're not serving a community. You are running a multi million dollar business. But if you're in a small city in many states of this country, you are serving a community. And that community may be tourism in some cases, but it's an important moment in time for your business. And I I just I couldn't Get enough of it, honestly. And and we'll do it again, no question about it. Because I just I love and and you meet so many people living in campgrounds. Every day your neighbors change. Someone's leaving, someone's coming on both sides of your house every day. You have new neighbors every day. And who are you? Where are you from? Why are you here? Like, do you live in an RV full-time or is this part-time? Is this a weekend gig? So you're not only meeting people. that you would never normally meet because now all of a sudden they're four feet away from you, living four feet away from you, and you meet a retail business that you didn't know or understand prior. I just I'm so curious about all those things.
Brandon Morphew: There's a couple of things. So I I'm gonna share real quick. I lived in Tokyo for a couple of years and I was I was just blown away by I it was one experience in particular where I was on a train waiting at a station for it to, you know, do like a tr probably a driver changeover or something. And a young man came in, a young man like, you know, probably in his early twenties, and sweeping and cleaning the the train car and I have not seen anyone sleep and clean with that sort of enthusiasm and pride. It was a sh it was a shocking moment for me because I think I had like a, you know, and I've I've been a janitor, you know, I've worked, I I've cleaned, I've cleaned toilets, I've I've I've cleaned floors. But this experience really struck me to see someone have this much pride in in their job. And I learned later it had everything to do with the the community and and the fact that his role was essential to making sure that everything went smoothly, everything ran smoothly, the the idea that this you know and having pride. Pride is such an interesting concept. So I I I I feel that deeply that that that that idea and it's it's not easy. I'm and I'm thinking about my experiences at retail that you it's it th this is I'd say more often these days I do find people that are enthusiastic in the in their roles and and and take pride. And there are quite a few people, and I think this is still a thing, where that people don't have that sort of pride and they don't so how do you make room for someone who's not having that type of experience?
Ron Thurston: Yeah. I th well, first it it's it's finding out why they aren't. You know, it is ultimately and I say this often, like the part of the reason why I think there's such a special light that shines in people who work in retail is because you've chosen a career of service and you are of service to everyone around you. As a leader, you're of service to your team, you're in service to the customer, to the brand, to the products you sell. It is never about you. And if you if that mindset is not something you're comfortable with, then this is not the right business for you. And pr pride is is generated often because you are in service. Like that, yeah, someone may not have been very nice to you, but you did it anyway. Or someone really needed something special at that moment. And maybe it's a bike that changed their entire fitness journey, that it changed their life, changed how they got outside more often, there's a lot of reasons why it's generated. But when you see that people are kind of inherently unhappy about working in this business, the it's my question of like you've chosen a career of service. If if this isn't for you, totally fine. Like t there's a lot of other things you can do. because human to human contact in a retail environment requires you to serve. And that's for me, that's a mindset. It's not an action. It's a mindset. And not everyone's cut out for that. Or they're not cut out at that moment where they are in their life. Doesn't mean it's that they're inherently never going to do this. It just means like right now I'm not I'm not ready to serve. And I'm totally fine with that. I celebrate that. I need people here who are are willing to put their ego aside and serve.
Brandon Morphew: Yeah, that's great. so t take me, take me into the bike shop with you. you're the an independent bike shop. They have eight employees. the
Ron Thurston: Yeah.
Brandon Morphew: owner is covering gaps everywhere. There's you know, two experienced people that don't necessarily see the next step for themselves. you know, there isn't there isn't another management position to promote them into. where do you start?
Ron Thurston: Hmm. So I I would I would start with the owner and say, let let's talk about the gaps that you're filling. And let's first talk about you and your skills. Like where where are you when you are at your best? What are you doing? And often I find people who own who are owner operated retail businesses, the reason they start it is because they love the product and they love the customer. They don't necessarily know how to run a retail business. But they love pro they love what they sell because they're passionate. That's why they started the business. And they probably love their customers. And so often that that's the response of like, I just want to I just want to be with my customer and I just want to talk about the product. And so my part two of that question is then what where are you most frustrated? When you're annoyed that you started this, what are you doing? And often it's like store operations, then you start talking about loss prevention, shrink, employee theft, HR problems, people not coming to work on time, like all the complexities of managing humans. That's the part they don't like. So what I would then I would dig and say, let's talk about how you spend your time. So I s I would in that scenario, Brandon, I would start at the top and just say, let's d let's diagnose an average week for you and where you spend time. And then Is it because there are people that need to learn? Like is the fact that it's on your to-do list because it's a must-do, a nice to-do, or you haven't taught someone how to do it? Are there things that you're doing that you could teach? Are there things if you're here at seven days a week and you don't have another management role, could we create one? And it could be as simple as a key holder, you know, that closes three nights a week so that you can go home to your family for $2 an hour. Give someone keys to the store. Like I think that there are ways that you could think differently about your business always through getting things off your plate that you that you don't know how to do or that you that only you are doing. How can we take them off? And from there I would dig into like the the rest of the team through a touch base, where where do you feel most successful? Where are you most challenged? Where would you like to grow? What would you like to learn? And start to put a plan together of what that could be. And all what all that is, honestly, doesn't require a spreadsheet, doesn't require a model. It requires conversation and and honesty. And if you do those things well and are thoughtful about the responses, it unlocks the potential of That's limitless for a business. And because right what right the pain point is so rooted in people always that if you if you solve that, you get comfortable in that yucky space and nothing can phase you. I I just see unlimited potential for people that can do that.
Brandon Morphew: It's so and this is maybe harder, probably independent individual but I'm gonna ask it anyway. when you think about a s an owner, an entrepreneur that is managing the store, and maybe their people's skills aren't as developed as as what you're articulating, which is I I think aspirational. Thank you for that. I it's really but if you're maybe a little bit gruff or a little bit Grumpy and and this is not your your sweet spot, w what kind of advice would you give? Is d is it wise to just like double down and this is the the the type of thing that you need to learn how to do well because you're in this place? Or is this is there can you hire this? How would you approach this when you're talking to somebody who's maybe a little bit less than amenable?
Ron Thurston: Yeah. No, no, I guess I've I've met these I know exactly who you're talking about. I've met these people. I yes, I'm a double down, but I would say the way that you learn how to do this is observing it in someone else. So the first question I would ask is do you have friends, colleagues, other business owners, the local community? Like for example, I'm here in Miami, I'm on the the board of a bus of an organization called the Miami Business Council. And it's for every kind of business, primarily owner operated, but there's also some bigger chains. So, like is there is there a chamber of commerce? Where can we meet people like you that have this skill? Who's the best at the the people messy side of this? So let's find someone that is, and then maybe you spend a couple of days in their business and watch them. Because I I don't think that. People that are inherently who you describe, Brandon, that are uncomfortable and gruff and and and I would say unpredictable, is you have to observe the opposite in somebody else. And then you watch this, you watch them do what they do well, and you're like, it's not so hard, actually. It's not so hard after all. And and then you see it or you find a mentor, you find someone that can come in and spend a week in your store. Coaching and observing you. And I have found great success in that. You have to you have to see it. You have to see someone model the behavior before you can change that behavior. And it's it's like taking a fitness class or anything else. Like you need someone to show you what this can look like. And then you can go back and do it yourself. And and that that's a skill that I think you can't put a price on. Does that make would that be valuable, kind of what I'm describing?
Brandon Morphew: Yes. I would say yes and I'm thinking out loud. I think a lot of folks in that role are are a bit isolated. So they're, you know, I'm thinking about the owners and their network of me, you know, it's maybe a certain distance to the next place. And so it might be hard to do. It might not be. Is there a role for technology in this space? Like a and and I I think about AI and and I I know people are everybody talks about AI, but you know, it role playing or maybe is there another way is there technology maybe that we could use or or maybe not? Is this something that really does need that human human touch?
Ron Thurston: Yeah. I would say yes, best case scenario, human to human. I would say if it needs to be done on FaceTime or something live, I would say that would be second. There there is, you're right, great technology being developed. I'm on an advisory board called with a company called Frontline IQ that does exactly that, that listens to you sell and it knows how many sales you've closed for the day or what your goals were, what the KPIs were, and it's and you're role playing with an AI agent based on your performance. And it's giving scorecards. And so it is more complex. And I'm a huge fan of this because coaching at scale, so it versus like small business, coaching at scale with real feedback and real KPIs and the ability to role play, which is one of the scariest things that everybody does. But if you can do it with someone who is modeled after a customer, I'm a massive fan. So I very early on joined the advisory board of this company. But if you're an owner operator and the list goes on of the struggles, I would, I would find either a live mentor or at at second choice, someone that can at least speak on the phone or do FaceTime with.
Brandon Morphew: Yeah, that's great.
Ron Thurston: Before you thought about AI, I mean yes, you you can prompt any of the of the tools for coaching, but if you're not if you're inherently not comfortable, it it isn't gonna matter what the prompt is.
Brandon Morphew: I'll just stay on AI for one more. I know it's fatigue. What what type of role do you think technology AI specifically but in general, like do you what type of role do you think it'll play or or should be playing in retail right now? Like as I think about the customer and being able to serve the customer and and you know, there's a certain amount of knowledge that an associate has, but there's a whole bunch of stuff that they don't have. And so I'm I'm just wondering, do you see a role for it? Do you think it's has a place in in the retail space, in the physical retail space.
Ron Thurston: Yeah. So if you think about the last couple of decades of investment that have happened, the majority of the money spent in most companies, larger scale, has all gone to becoming more omnichannel, for lack of a better word. So like two to e-commerce, driving traffic to e comm that has a very traditionally very low conversion rate. all the technology, all the investment has gone to everything except the store. And so here we are in 2026 with the tools of AI, I think very much serve the stores. So, like I mentioned around coaching your team to become better salespeople, it definitely yes. I would say like loyalty. So things like customized and personalized email outreach or text outreach to all of your best customers. Now with AI, you they actually can be fully customizable based on purchase history. Based on how many times they visited the store. So you can have a fair, you can have an individual email created for every one of your customers in seconds today. And that versus creating just one blanket email template that goes out whenever you get it done. Like AI can solve all of those problems from a marketing perspective. It can help you manage in social media and like find customers, serve customers, help develop your social. Not and at the same time create content for you. You can go into many of the AI tools and it will set up all of your social media posts. It will create content for you. We'll do all that work, which I often find in owners is something they'll say, I'm not good at social media. So one of the first things they say, well, then let's get an AI tool and solve that for you, because that and it's quite inexpensive. I would say from an operations standpoint, there are things like Buying, planning, allocation, margin, all of some you could take everything you know about your store, traffic, weather, sales, promotion, promotional activity, square footage of the store, average dollars per per square foot. You put all that into an AI tool and it will tell you exactly how much inventory you should have on which week and when and how you can improve your margin. Like the the insights are endless. versus as we have done for decades, do it on an Excel spreadsheet. I really like that in red. I'm gonna buy that, and then it doesn't sell. So I think that we've we've we've moved leaps and bounds in our ability to create and deliver profitable businesses through AI like never before. The tools are incredibly helpful and can take a lot of the things you say, you know, owner operators are often overwhelmed with how much tasks, then not only can let's find other people on your team to do some of this, but what can technology solve? What can t technology just take off your plate? And I I think you'd be surprised how much of it can actually be done by AI in a very inexpensive way.
Brandon Morphew: So thirty years, thirty plus years is what I heard. What what still happens or what can still happen in a store that makes you think, this is why I love this work?
Ron Thurston: I think excuse me, the when you s when you hear about the relationships that stores have with great customers or experiences they have, the you know, I spent the majority of my career in in the fashion space and s a lot of it in luxury. The idea of special purchases, special moments in people's lives, jewelry that's for special occasions, But at the same time, then other others like you're cherishing certain moments. Like all of this happens in retail. And it isn't just selling things. It is like finding out why people are there, why they they're choosing your brand. Why are they choosing to spend their hard-earned money with you? And the more the I just said like the more you know, the more questions you ask, the more curious you are, the more the business becomes so valuable to them because you are you're you aren't just selling things. You're serving a need and you're and the stories, like the the layers that you dig just by asking a few more questions, the what you serve, it's so powerful that and there's no other industry that can do that. There's no it doesn't restaurants have a very kind of transactional, yes, they can be memorable and celebrate occasions, but it it's a hundred percent conversion on a restaurant. And in retail, we have to we have to work harder to make a sale. We have to and we have to get them in the door when they don't know what to expect. We have to find hire and and develop great people to make that happen. Like the list is endless about how hard this business is, but when it's right, it's so incredibly powerful, like no other business in the country.
Brandon Morphew: Is there something that that you're still trying to figure out or excited about figuring out around the retail industry in general right now?
Ron Thurston: You know, I'm all I think the number one answer to that, Brandon, is encouraging young people to choose this as a career. And you know, this the subtitle of Retail Pride is The Guide to Celebrating Your Accidental Career. And because for most people it it is an accident. Like nobody has a degree in store manager. And so this idea of choosing this as a as maybe thought of as as as accidental, but it's actually want to be my career. I think about like what is the next generation of people in retail? What do they need? What are they excited about? Because it is it is more complex. You know, it wasn't all that long ago when we didn't even have e-commerce. 100% of the business came from stores. So now we have e-commerce, but still the majority of sales still come from stores. 80's 86% right now. So how young people are choosing this as a career when it's not glamorous, it's full of hard work, is something that I really I think about a lot. Like the what's the unlock to the future generations of working in this business? And I I don't know that I've solved that one yet, to be Yeah. I think the n the number one indicator of success is don't choose a brand, choose a manager. And because that that s that single direct report manager has the greatest impact on your success or failure in this business. And if you if you've chosen a brand because you love a brand and you look the other way of a from a poor leader, you're you're likely to leave. And then don't choose and don't choose the industry as your career. But if you choose you interview somewhere and you're like, I really want to work for that person. Like I like that guy, Ron. Like I want to work for him. And it doesn't really matter what you sell and you you've learned and you've continued to be invested, it changes the trajectory of someone's career. So I always say when people come to me and it's like, They they're very excited about a particular brand because it has a status attached to it. Like, but who's your manager? Who will you report to? And if you can choose that first, and this is not the the path I took, but this is what what it my mantra is, you've changed you will change the trajectory of your career. One person does have that power.
Brandon Morphew: people just become such a central part of service as well. have a lot of pride in what you do. I I I really I genuinely am grateful that you you've taking the time to share, Ron. You've had some fantastic, very actionable points, So thank you so much. Ron, people can find you on on LinkedIn. Is that the best place to to find you?
Ron Thurston: Yep, link link LinkedIn's great. and or my website is Ron Thurston dot com
Brandon Morphew: Great. And your podcast is Retail in America. you've got
Ron Thurston: Retail in America. Yep, correct.
Brandon Morphew: your books are Retail Pride and Human Pride.
Ron Thurston: Yes.
Brandon Morphew: I genuinely grateful that you've been here and and shared your experience with us, Ron. Thank you so much.
Ron Thurston: My pleasure, Brandon. This was fun.
Brandon Morphew: And thanks everybody for listening to Spokes and Strategy. We'll see you again soon.
Brandon Morphew: Welcome to Spokes and Strategy, Marketing the Bicycle with Brandon Morphew and Chris Melman of Miso Partners. What makes working in a bike shop a career someone can build a life around? Not just something they do because they love bikes. Today we're talking about pride in retail. What happens when good people stop seeing a future in the work and what owners owe their teams before asking them to care more? Welcome to Spokes and Strategy, where the business of bikes meets the joy of riding. I'm your host, Brandon Morphew. Welcome. Before we get into work, we like to do what part of your life do bikes play? and I want to welcome Ron Thurston. and Ron, if bikes don't play a role in your life, is there another way that you like to get outside and reset?
Ron Thurston: Yeah, thanks Brandon. You know, I I'm a kind of traditional, more like hitting the gym, going for a run, being outside, but I will tell you I spent a year and a half living in an R V and traveling the country a couple of years ago. And it was for a book tour and and a podcast also, but like that idea of living outside, even if it's not on a bike every day, is very special and close close to my heart. Yeah. It was an incredible experience doing that.
Brandon Morphew: Is there anything that you can think of that sort of helps you make helps to ha you make you feel connected to either to a place that you're in or or maybe to the stores that you're you know you're working working with?
Ron Thurston: Yeah. I mean it's really w what I what I do anytime in in a new city, like w where's the major what are the major shopping streets, what are the centers, what are the unique kind of unseen areas? So I do a lot of research in advance and and just go meet people. You know, as as I think we'll discuss, you know, my entire career is rooted in running brick and mortar retail stores and discovering the pride that people have in this work and their careers and no matter what you're selling. you know, kind of choosing that choosing the pride in the work. And so I I always discover like what's the latest and greatest. I've probably been to eighty percent of every mall in in the US, maybe even higher than that at this point in my career.
Brandon Morphew: Well that that's a great lead in. So Ron Thurston, he spent more than thirty years leading retail teams at brands like Apple, Gap, West Elm, Saint Laurent. he's the author of Retail Pride and Human Pride and the host of Retail in America. after a career a career leading teams, Ron left New York and spent a year and a half on the road in an airstream, you just mentioned. meeting the people behind the stores. Today we're talking about what makes retail work and a career in retail worth choosing, what a good leadership team looks like for the people doing it. Ron, welcome.
Ron Thurston: Thank you so much, Brandon.
Brandon Morphew: So you've talked about watching your your I think your grandfather lead construction crews. and when he arrived at the job site, what did he do that stayed with you?
Ron Thurston: Such a such a great question. I'm I'm really glad you asked because I I did I grew up in South Lake Tahoe, California, which is a beautiful place. But my grandfather was one of I think the founding pillars of of that early development that is now South Lake Tahoe and so important. So he built some of the first grocery stores, firehouse, schoolhouses, custom homes. And ended up leading a large construction company that built all the safeway stores on the West Coast. And as the oldest grandchild, I think there was some like potential, what would you kind of c call it, like career pathing for me to go into the construction business, which I did not. But what I did is travel, started like 15, 16 years old, 17, traveling with him to job sites and watching him work. And think what was important about him in a leadership role was his ability to connect with team members in a very intentional way and watch him ask great questions, understand their names, know a little bit about their families, knew like really thankful for the work that they did to help build these beautiful stores and just his immense like connection to humans. was something I just admired and watched him do. and I don't think I understood it at the time, but I was really learning how to be a great retail leader that is so connected to the people in stores. So whether you're building the store on a construction site or you're running the store speaking to customers, this is at its core an extraordinarily human business that requires our ability to connect with humans in a very short amount of time and I literally seconds. because you don't have you don't have a lot of time with every single customer. And I think that it's a skill that I observed him do and I I really tried to to mirror in my own career.
Brandon Morphew: Was there a time when you sort of recognized that you were doing that? Like that that that was making its way into what you were doing?
Ron Thurston: Yeah, it it did. I would say that when I first became I'm a multi-store leader, I started my career at the gap. And when I f when I first got promoted to district manager, I had I think ten, eleven stores in in the LA market. And I think there's a tendency when you first become a multi-store leader to become kind of like a superstore manager. You're trying to run eleven stores. But when I realized it's actually my role is to step back and my role is to observe and Coach and connect and listen and provide tools and resources for everyone else to do their job well. When you figure you you're approaching it more from a CEO mindset of I need to provide the resources for people to do their work well, connect with them to make sure that they are engaged as as employees, and then step back, like let people do the work, let people. make their own mistakes and do do things that they feel most proud of. And yeah, I w I r I would say I was probably closer to like thirty by the time that happened, but but once I figured it out, I'm like, now I get it. Now I really understand what's going on here.
Brandon Morphew: There's so much in that too, like the autonomy. I'm I'm such a big advocate of giving people like, you know, the opportunity to learn and fail. I mean, I think that's how we learn. We
Ron Thurston: Yeah.
Brandon Morphew: we I I regularly talk about we don't we don't yell at the baby that's falling down when it's learning learning to walk. Like that's not a
Ron Thurston: Yeah.
Brandon Morphew: you know, what but we do we do get upset at at others when they're learning as adults. It seems to be we've forgotten that people have to learn how to how to walk, you know, crawl first and then before they can run. I I I there's so much in there, in that you know, in and sort of giving people value, like recognizing intrinsically like that that they're capable and and giving them the opportun I I just I think that is such a hard thing to do. Like as business owners, we often recognize that we can do it maybe better or we can do it faster
Ron Thurston: Mm-hmm.
Brandon Morphew: and there's these things. let's talk about what happens to that employee leader role and and relationship when when that value disappears, when it's when it's not there.
Ron Thurston: Yeah, so I it's it's interesting. If you take a step back, you know, outside of just you know the the bike industry, if you think about retail in general and people like it does have an outsized higher than average turnover rate. And and so you think about, well, in order for my business to be most successful, one of the things that I can do that I have likely have some or all control over. Is slowing down the rate of turnover of my team. And the way that you often do that, when you listen to employees to say when all the surveys and all the data that's out there, if you listen to really why they leave, it's not money. It's a lack of clear career path in retail. It's the number one reason people leave is a lack of a clear career path. So if you if you are someone, to your point, Brandon, who does all the work, jumps in when it looks like something's gonna go wrong. you know, kind of afraid to let them to watch them make a mistake. What you're doing is kind of diminishing their ability to grow and to grow their own career. And so the the the skill of actually sitting down with someone and saying, I really see a light in you. I really see something special. I'd love to be, if you're open to it, I'd love to be someone that helped coach and mentor you to ruin your career in this business. And And so you can take the even deeper, like where are you most comfortable? Where are you most in need of development of your competencies? Like that investment in the front line that therefore slows down turnover, likely improves things like customer loyalty. the cost, you know, the the average cost of replacing an employee is somewhere between like five and ten thousand dollars, between the cost of posting and interviewing and you think about all the time. I think on the the actual average right now is nine thousand dollars. So if you say I'm I'm going to save tens of thousands of dollars of my business straight off the bottom line by keeping my team. And I'm gonna keep my team by investing in their development. If like that for me, that mindset changes the entire dynamic of your building. And it changes the way people approach this industry that is notorious for, you know, an attitude of like, well, they're just gonna leave anyway. So why would I spend time and energy when I can actually do it better? And that it takes a lot of courage as a leader to step back and say, you know what, they they may not be here. You're right, they might not, but I'm willing to give everything I have during the time that they're with me. And the interesting thing about my career, when you say, you know, 30 plus years, I can't tell you how many people that come back to me 20 years later and say something of like, you let me do this, or you saw something in me, you gave me this stretch assignment, or you sent me to this training class, or you gave me keys to the store before I was ready. The amount of those kinds of stories, the longer you're in this industry, you realize you actually are making a big impact. You just don't know it at the time.
Brandon Morphew: you you remind me of a concept that we're we're we're sort of kicking around at the agency and and it plays into this. We we're talking about graduating team members. So graduation might look like a new role, it mo might look like a promotion. It might also look like a new job somewhere else. It might look like going but I I think the the idea of of of thinking about your y you know, and valuing this sort of the career growth and and developing the person. and versus just filling a spot on the bench or spit filling a roll. I I love that. I think there's something really valuable about this, about valuing people in that way. Let let's let's get into the the day to day. So I think like often I I get into this sort of like you know big blue sky like you know kind of visualizing the the big picture. But I I love to get zoom in, we're at a store, this is an ordinary shift Wha what kinds of things should a manager be looking for or or a store owner be thinking about with their team members?
Ron Thurston: So I'll I'll give you like my my perception of just like the the basics of this. And again, this is regardless of what of what you're selling. I think ev every shift starts with a 10-minute welcome and a 10-minute warm-up. So you would like let's update you on the business, the business for the week, the successes we've had. But it also includes some questions. Like where have you give me an example of the best customer interaction you've had this week, or what has been the most challenging one. So let's have before you even start, I just want to level set how's your day? Thank you for being here. Let's download on the business and let me receive some feedback from you. And then I'm gonna tell you about expectations for the day. So we're clear. Here's who's working, here's breaks, here's operations, things that are gonna go down. And I just think every day should start with. A great download of information versus this mysterious, you know, I'm I'm running in after school, I'm clocking in, I'm trying to figure out what I'm supposed to do today, and there's a scramble all day long of like, am I am I really part of this business? Or am I, again, a disposable part-time employee? And I think ten 10 minutes out of any leader's time is nothing. Again, if it if it creates employee retention and I would say the same thing at the end of every shift is is a checkout, is a how was your shift? How did what did you learn today? Tell me about some of your customers. give me some things that we're doing really well as a company, and give me some things that you see as as opportunities, feedback that that was observed, all of it. I think there's a a great way to start and there's a great way to finish. And then I would say the third thing from a people perspective is as a leader, it's really easy to get stuck in the office, back of house, on the phone, on the computer. It's really easy to do that when your most important role is to be out there with the customer, demonstrating what success looks like. Or if you don't do that, you're observing your team and then you're providing feedback right away. So just because you're on the floor doesn't mean you are always selling, but it does mean that you're just kind of watching what's happening or getting to know your customers. And I'll give you an an example. When I was running Apple stores, I never sold a computer. I never sold a phone. This was early phone two. This I joined at iPhone two. And this was when you had to wait in line to buy a phone. Every day we had a thousand people waiting. It was chaos. But I so I was like, Well, I'm I'm the leader of this building. What's the most important thing I could do right now? I the most important thing I could do is go talk to those people in line and and thank them. And whether it was maybe I got bottled water, I got snacks, they're sometimes they were there for like day or days. And like, well, what can I do to make to show my gratitude that this customer is about to spend at the time five, six hundred dollars, now it's more, on a phone. But I don't I don't need to sell the phone, I don't need to sell you a computer, I don't need to sell you Apple Care. But I want you to know that that I appreciate your business and that my team is here to help. If you do that as a leader, you've changed the entire dynamic of the experience. Say, my name's Ron. I'm the general manager of this building. I'm really grateful for your business today, and we're gonna be with you as soon as we can. Again, that takes seconds, but immediately you put people at ease. versus how long have I been here, what's going to happen, I don't have enough people working, I'm in panic mode. Like so that it's a long answer to your question, but I think that there's this moment always of do I choose operations or do I choose people? And I always err on the side of people because the long term investment in what you do and how you do it and what you say pays in a very long term way.
Brandon Morphew: And that that number you that you quoted, I you know, and I I I would agree that it's somewhere between five and ten thousand dollars and you said it's currently nine for bringing on a new team member. that's plenty of motivation for most folks, like if you think about it. But is there a time when this clicked for you? Like was there a moment like when because it this is very developed, like I feel like in and clearly over over time is there, you know, a a I guess like a a was it the your grandfather or was there was there some other force that sort of like got you to recognize like a a moment in time this is happening,
Ron Thurston: Yeah, I think it was probably, you know, when when I became like my very first store manager. So I was a young store manager at the Gap. and same, like relatively small team, a higher volume store in Los Angeles. But when I first had a team, I think I discovered of like this idea of I I'm I'm better served making sure everyone has what they need. versus me doing the work. And I had never, I'd only ever worked retail. I didn't work in restaurants and I didn't play sports. So like I I understand the analogies often, but I didn't actually ever experience it until I became a store manager. And I think this mantra in retail of that as as a store manager, you are an entrepreneur at heart. And that these four walls, I I am ultimately responsible the success or failure of these four walls. It doesn't matter whose name's on the outside. Maybe it's my own name, but I'm responsible for the success or failure of this business. And when you have that mindset, you think differently. You and maybe every day is not the same day. Every day you're like, well, what does my what does my team need from me today? Do they need training? Do they need to be listened to? Do they need do they need help? Do they need assistance? Would I actually be better suited unpacking boxes in the stock room? Like what's my role for the day? And some sometimes when people talk about leadership styles or this is what works, what I would say is as a leader, your style is to adapt to what your team needs every day. And that can be different every day. We're also in retail, we're in this place of in in many cases four generations of people working in the same store, all of which want a different leadership style from you. And so not only does your team need something different, but each member of your team needs something different. That's what that's what good leaders do, in my opinion.
Brandon Morphew: Anything that you would recommend I'm just thinking about that in in the moment, it's sometimes that you got so much going on, there's all these needs on the on the retail
Ron Thurston: I know.
Brandon Morphew: floor and you're getting pulled in so many directions. And, you know, we have you know lots of lots of very busy businesses listening.
Ron Thurston: I would I would say of the you know eight plus l hours that you're there, I think the best practice is every day you're going to dedicate thirty minutes. I because I think everyone can find thirty minutes. Thirty minutes of dedicated time to either personal development or development of my team. And development of your team can look like great. touch base, questions, goals, feedback, or it's self-development. Because what happens often in very busy retail world, especially owner operated, is you're not investing in yourself. You're so worried about the business that I think if you could block we'll just say 20 minutes, 20 to 30 minutes every day to development of your team and or self development, you change your perspective of what that means. You know, it's often like people that dedicate the first half an hour that they're up in the morning to meditation or journaling or like th those kinds of personal behaviors over time create significant change. And I think it's the same thing in leadership. It's so easy in this business to n invest in everything except yourself. And that that could be podcasts, it could be books, it could be watching know some kind of training videos on YouTube. There's variety of of that. But I think the best practices are that you've blocked time. And and when that when when you don't have it, you're going to miss it after a while. And your team's gonna be like, well we haven't had a touch base in a while, Brandon. Like what happened? Like why why don't we have that? Because your team's going to get used to you being more available to them. And again I n nothing changes someone's decision about leaving in a more positive way than a great relationship with their direct manager.
Brandon Morphew: it compounds exponentially over time. And I think, you know, you build these and I think a half an hour is very reasonable. That that amount of time is is a is a manageable. And I think holding ourselves accountable to, you know, the 15 minute, you know, pregame and the and the 15 minute post game, you know, recap, those are manageable, real functional tools that I think could move the needle for a lot of businesses. It also gives you a chance to reflect on lot of things that are going on in your business. So I appreciate that. Thank you very much. I want to get back to this Airstream RV journey that you you did.
Ron Thurston: Okay.
Brandon Morphew: You traveled you traveled the the country and if if you if you wouldn't mind so share a little bit about that journey and then moving from there like what did you hear on the road that that was sort of different than what you were hearing maybe in conversations with other leaders and and sort of in the boardroom.
Ron Thurston: Yeah, I'd yeah, I'd love to. So I I had been you know a a a retailer, manager, leader, executive all all the way up and through middle of twenty twenty one. And at that point, Retail Pride, my first book, it was a bestseller and and doing very well. I feel like Retail Pride is the first book ever written specifically for the front lines of retail. And it's written in for store really store manager and below. Can be for owners, but I really think about this book as the language that people use when they are asked, What do you do? It's you often how I start if I'm keynoting at a conference. My first question is, What do you do? And if it's a retail audience, you often say, Well, I just work in retail. and I I really want to change that mantra often of we don't just work in retail. we're business owners and we're entrepreneurs and we're HR managers and we're operators and the list is quite long. So the the point is that I w I actually wanted to then I lived in New York City. I wanted to see if what I believed to be true was actually true outside of people that worked for me. Like could could I find this same level of pride in strangers across the country. And it And what I believed at the time and I still do is you you can't have honest conversation remotely when you're trying to get to the truth. I needed to go meet people where they are. And you know, th not in New York City, but all over the country. And it in my mind, I'm like, the best way I can do that is to live on the road full time and and meet them. And to the it really became a both a tour for retail pride. So I did a lot of in-store book signing events and meeting teams, talking to teams, and then also interviewing people for for the show. And this idea of what I discovered was that people are very proud to work in retail, primarily because of the impact that they have on the careers of the people that work for them, like the financial impact and the impact they have on their local communities. And how how they serve their community, how they engage with it, maybe donate to it, how they hire the the teams in local cities. There's so much pride in that business that it isn't just another store. It's actually a place where magic happens and local goods are sold and people get jobs. And whether it's Walmart or whether it's small business. And there there's a this immense amount of pride around serving my community. And that you don't really feel that in New York, to be honest. Like New York City is you're not serving a community. You are running a multi million dollar business. But if you're in a small city in many states of this country, you are serving a community. And that community may be tourism in some cases, but it's an important moment in time for your business. And I I just I couldn't Get enough of it, honestly. And and we'll do it again, no question about it. Because I just I love and and you meet so many people living in campgrounds. Every day your neighbors change. Someone's leaving, someone's coming on both sides of your house every day. You have new neighbors every day. And who are you? Where are you from? Why are you here? Like, do you live in an RV full-time or is this part-time? Is this a weekend gig? So you're not only meeting people. that you would never normally meet because now all of a sudden they're four feet away from you, living four feet away from you, and you meet a retail business that you didn't know or understand prior. I just I'm so curious about all those things.
Brandon Morphew: There's a couple of things. So I I'm gonna share real quick. I lived in Tokyo for a couple of years and I was I was just blown away by I it was one experience in particular where I was on a train waiting at a station for it to, you know, do like a tr probably a driver changeover or something. And a young man came in, a young man like, you know, probably in his early twenties, and sweeping and cleaning the the train car and I have not seen anyone sleep and clean with that sort of enthusiasm and pride. It was a sh it was a shocking moment for me because I think I had like a, you know, and I've I've been a janitor, you know, I've worked, I I've cleaned, I've cleaned toilets, I've I've I've cleaned floors. But this experience really struck me to see someone have this much pride in in their job. And I learned later it had everything to do with the the community and and the fact that his role was essential to making sure that everything went smoothly, everything ran smoothly, the the idea that this you know and having pride. Pride is such an interesting concept. So I I I I feel that deeply that that that that idea and it's it's not easy. I'm and I'm thinking about my experiences at retail that you it's it th this is I'd say more often these days I do find people that are enthusiastic in the in their roles and and and take pride. And there are quite a few people, and I think this is still a thing, where that people don't have that sort of pride and they don't so how do you make room for someone who's not having that type of experience?
Ron Thurston: Yeah. I th well, first it it's it's finding out why they aren't. You know, it is ultimately and I say this often, like the part of the reason why I think there's such a special light that shines in people who work in retail is because you've chosen a career of service and you are of service to everyone around you. As a leader, you're of service to your team, you're in service to the customer, to the brand, to the products you sell. It is never about you. And if you if that mindset is not something you're comfortable with, then this is not the right business for you. And pr pride is is generated often because you are in service. Like that, yeah, someone may not have been very nice to you, but you did it anyway. Or someone really needed something special at that moment. And maybe it's a bike that changed their entire fitness journey, that it changed their life, changed how they got outside more often, there's a lot of reasons why it's generated. But when you see that people are kind of inherently unhappy about working in this business, the it's my question of like you've chosen a career of service. If if this isn't for you, totally fine. Like t there's a lot of other things you can do. because human to human contact in a retail environment requires you to serve. And that's for me, that's a mindset. It's not an action. It's a mindset. And not everyone's cut out for that. Or they're not cut out at that moment where they are in their life. Doesn't mean it's that they're inherently never going to do this. It just means like right now I'm not I'm not ready to serve. And I'm totally fine with that. I celebrate that. I need people here who are are willing to put their ego aside and serve.
Brandon Morphew: Yeah, that's great. so t take me, take me into the bike shop with you. you're the an independent bike shop. They have eight employees. the
Ron Thurston: Yeah.
Brandon Morphew: owner is covering gaps everywhere. There's you know, two experienced people that don't necessarily see the next step for themselves. you know, there isn't there isn't another management position to promote them into. where do you start?
Ron Thurston: Hmm. So I I would I would start with the owner and say, let let's talk about the gaps that you're filling. And let's first talk about you and your skills. Like where where are you when you are at your best? What are you doing? And often I find people who own who are owner operated retail businesses, the reason they start it is because they love the product and they love the customer. They don't necessarily know how to run a retail business. But they love pro they love what they sell because they're passionate. That's why they started the business. And they probably love their customers. And so often that that's the response of like, I just want to I just want to be with my customer and I just want to talk about the product. And so my part two of that question is then what where are you most frustrated? When you're annoyed that you started this, what are you doing? And often it's like store operations, then you start talking about loss prevention, shrink, employee theft, HR problems, people not coming to work on time, like all the complexities of managing humans. That's the part they don't like. So what I would then I would dig and say, let's talk about how you spend your time. So I s I would in that scenario, Brandon, I would start at the top and just say, let's d let's diagnose an average week for you and where you spend time. And then Is it because there are people that need to learn? Like is the fact that it's on your to-do list because it's a must-do, a nice to-do, or you haven't taught someone how to do it? Are there things that you're doing that you could teach? Are there things if you're here at seven days a week and you don't have another management role, could we create one? And it could be as simple as a key holder, you know, that closes three nights a week so that you can go home to your family for $2 an hour. Give someone keys to the store. Like I think that there are ways that you could think differently about your business always through getting things off your plate that you that you don't know how to do or that you that only you are doing. How can we take them off? And from there I would dig into like the the rest of the team through a touch base, where where do you feel most successful? Where are you most challenged? Where would you like to grow? What would you like to learn? And start to put a plan together of what that could be. And all what all that is, honestly, doesn't require a spreadsheet, doesn't require a model. It requires conversation and and honesty. And if you do those things well and are thoughtful about the responses, it unlocks the potential of That's limitless for a business. And because right what right the pain point is so rooted in people always that if you if you solve that, you get comfortable in that yucky space and nothing can phase you. I I just see unlimited potential for people that can do that.
Brandon Morphew: It's so and this is maybe harder, probably independent individual but I'm gonna ask it anyway. when you think about a s an owner, an entrepreneur that is managing the store, and maybe their people's skills aren't as developed as as what you're articulating, which is I I think aspirational. Thank you for that. I it's really but if you're maybe a little bit gruff or a little bit Grumpy and and this is not your your sweet spot, w what kind of advice would you give? Is d is it wise to just like double down and this is the the the type of thing that you need to learn how to do well because you're in this place? Or is this is there can you hire this? How would you approach this when you're talking to somebody who's maybe a little bit less than amenable?
Ron Thurston: Yeah. No, no, I guess I've I've met these I know exactly who you're talking about. I've met these people. I yes, I'm a double down, but I would say the way that you learn how to do this is observing it in someone else. So the first question I would ask is do you have friends, colleagues, other business owners, the local community? Like for example, I'm here in Miami, I'm on the the board of a bus of an organization called the Miami Business Council. And it's for every kind of business, primarily owner operated, but there's also some bigger chains. So, like is there is there a chamber of commerce? Where can we meet people like you that have this skill? Who's the best at the the people messy side of this? So let's find someone that is, and then maybe you spend a couple of days in their business and watch them. Because I I don't think that. People that are inherently who you describe, Brandon, that are uncomfortable and gruff and and and I would say unpredictable, is you have to observe the opposite in somebody else. And then you watch this, you watch them do what they do well, and you're like, it's not so hard, actually. It's not so hard after all. And and then you see it or you find a mentor, you find someone that can come in and spend a week in your store. Coaching and observing you. And I have found great success in that. You have to you have to see it. You have to see someone model the behavior before you can change that behavior. And it's it's like taking a fitness class or anything else. Like you need someone to show you what this can look like. And then you can go back and do it yourself. And and that that's a skill that I think you can't put a price on. Does that make would that be valuable, kind of what I'm describing?
Brandon Morphew: Yes. I would say yes and I'm thinking out loud. I think a lot of folks in that role are are a bit isolated. So they're, you know, I'm thinking about the owners and their network of me, you know, it's maybe a certain distance to the next place. And so it might be hard to do. It might not be. Is there a role for technology in this space? Like a and and I I think about AI and and I I know people are everybody talks about AI, but you know, it role playing or maybe is there another way is there technology maybe that we could use or or maybe not? Is this something that really does need that human human touch?
Ron Thurston: Yeah. I would say yes, best case scenario, human to human. I would say if it needs to be done on FaceTime or something live, I would say that would be second. There there is, you're right, great technology being developed. I'm on an advisory board called with a company called Frontline IQ that does exactly that, that listens to you sell and it knows how many sales you've closed for the day or what your goals were, what the KPIs were, and it's and you're role playing with an AI agent based on your performance. And it's giving scorecards. And so it is more complex. And I'm a huge fan of this because coaching at scale, so it versus like small business, coaching at scale with real feedback and real KPIs and the ability to role play, which is one of the scariest things that everybody does. But if you can do it with someone who is modeled after a customer, I'm a massive fan. So I very early on joined the advisory board of this company. But if you're an owner operator and the list goes on of the struggles, I would, I would find either a live mentor or at at second choice, someone that can at least speak on the phone or do FaceTime with.
Brandon Morphew: Yeah, that's great.
Ron Thurston: Before you thought about AI, I mean yes, you you can prompt any of the of the tools for coaching, but if you're not if you're inherently not comfortable, it it isn't gonna matter what the prompt is.
Brandon Morphew: I'll just stay on AI for one more. I know it's fatigue. What what type of role do you think technology AI specifically but in general, like do you what type of role do you think it'll play or or should be playing in retail right now? Like as I think about the customer and being able to serve the customer and and you know, there's a certain amount of knowledge that an associate has, but there's a whole bunch of stuff that they don't have. And so I'm I'm just wondering, do you see a role for it? Do you think it's has a place in in the retail space, in the physical retail space.
Ron Thurston: Yeah. So if you think about the last couple of decades of investment that have happened, the majority of the money spent in most companies, larger scale, has all gone to becoming more omnichannel, for lack of a better word. So like two to e-commerce, driving traffic to e comm that has a very traditionally very low conversion rate. all the technology, all the investment has gone to everything except the store. And so here we are in 2026 with the tools of AI, I think very much serve the stores. So, like I mentioned around coaching your team to become better salespeople, it definitely yes. I would say like loyalty. So things like customized and personalized email outreach or text outreach to all of your best customers. Now with AI, you they actually can be fully customizable based on purchase history. Based on how many times they visited the store. So you can have a fair, you can have an individual email created for every one of your customers in seconds today. And that versus creating just one blanket email template that goes out whenever you get it done. Like AI can solve all of those problems from a marketing perspective. It can help you manage in social media and like find customers, serve customers, help develop your social. Not and at the same time create content for you. You can go into many of the AI tools and it will set up all of your social media posts. It will create content for you. We'll do all that work, which I often find in owners is something they'll say, I'm not good at social media. So one of the first things they say, well, then let's get an AI tool and solve that for you, because that and it's quite inexpensive. I would say from an operations standpoint, there are things like Buying, planning, allocation, margin, all of some you could take everything you know about your store, traffic, weather, sales, promotion, promotional activity, square footage of the store, average dollars per per square foot. You put all that into an AI tool and it will tell you exactly how much inventory you should have on which week and when and how you can improve your margin. Like the the insights are endless. versus as we have done for decades, do it on an Excel spreadsheet. I really like that in red. I'm gonna buy that, and then it doesn't sell. So I think that we've we've we've moved leaps and bounds in our ability to create and deliver profitable businesses through AI like never before. The tools are incredibly helpful and can take a lot of the things you say, you know, owner operators are often overwhelmed with how much tasks, then not only can let's find other people on your team to do some of this, but what can technology solve? What can t technology just take off your plate? And I I think you'd be surprised how much of it can actually be done by AI in a very inexpensive way.
Brandon Morphew: So thirty years, thirty plus years is what I heard. What what still happens or what can still happen in a store that makes you think, this is why I love this work?
Ron Thurston: I think excuse me, the when you s when you hear about the relationships that stores have with great customers or experiences they have, the you know, I spent the majority of my career in in the fashion space and s a lot of it in luxury. The idea of special purchases, special moments in people's lives, jewelry that's for special occasions, But at the same time, then other others like you're cherishing certain moments. Like all of this happens in retail. And it isn't just selling things. It is like finding out why people are there, why they they're choosing your brand. Why are they choosing to spend their hard-earned money with you? And the more the I just said like the more you know, the more questions you ask, the more curious you are, the more the business becomes so valuable to them because you are you're you aren't just selling things. You're serving a need and you're and the stories, like the the layers that you dig just by asking a few more questions, the what you serve, it's so powerful that and there's no other industry that can do that. There's no it doesn't restaurants have a very kind of transactional, yes, they can be memorable and celebrate occasions, but it it's a hundred percent conversion on a restaurant. And in retail, we have to we have to work harder to make a sale. We have to and we have to get them in the door when they don't know what to expect. We have to find hire and and develop great people to make that happen. Like the list is endless about how hard this business is, but when it's right, it's so incredibly powerful, like no other business in the country.
Brandon Morphew: Is there something that that you're still trying to figure out or excited about figuring out around the retail industry in general right now?
Ron Thurston: You know, I'm all I think the number one answer to that, Brandon, is encouraging young people to choose this as a career. And you know, this the subtitle of Retail Pride is The Guide to Celebrating Your Accidental Career. And because for most people it it is an accident. Like nobody has a degree in store manager. And so this idea of choosing this as a as maybe thought of as as as accidental, but it's actually want to be my career. I think about like what is the next generation of people in retail? What do they need? What are they excited about? Because it is it is more complex. You know, it wasn't all that long ago when we didn't even have e-commerce. 100% of the business came from stores. So now we have e-commerce, but still the majority of sales still come from stores. 80's 86% right now. So how young people are choosing this as a career when it's not glamorous, it's full of hard work, is something that I really I think about a lot. Like the what's the unlock to the future generations of working in this business? And I I don't know that I've solved that one yet, to be Yeah. I think the n the number one indicator of success is don't choose a brand, choose a manager. And because that that s that single direct report manager has the greatest impact on your success or failure in this business. And if you if you've chosen a brand because you love a brand and you look the other way of a from a poor leader, you're you're likely to leave. And then don't choose and don't choose the industry as your career. But if you choose you interview somewhere and you're like, I really want to work for that person. Like I like that guy, Ron. Like I want to work for him. And it doesn't really matter what you sell and you you've learned and you've continued to be invested, it changes the trajectory of someone's career. So I always say when people come to me and it's like, They they're very excited about a particular brand because it has a status attached to it. Like, but who's your manager? Who will you report to? And if you can choose that first, and this is not the the path I took, but this is what what it my mantra is, you've changed you will change the trajectory of your career. One person does have that power.
Brandon Morphew: people just become such a central part of service as well. have a lot of pride in what you do. I I I really I genuinely am grateful that you you've taking the time to share, Ron. You've had some fantastic, very actionable points, So thank you so much. Ron, people can find you on on LinkedIn. Is that the best place to to find you?
Ron Thurston: Yep, link link LinkedIn's great. and or my website is Ron Thurston dot com
Brandon Morphew: Great. And your podcast is Retail in America. you've got
Ron Thurston: Retail in America. Yep, correct.
Brandon Morphew: your books are Retail Pride and Human Pride.
Ron Thurston: Yes.
Brandon Morphew: I genuinely grateful that you've been here and and shared your experience with us, Ron. Thank you so much.
Ron Thurston: My pleasure, Brandon. This was fun.
Brandon Morphew: And thanks everybody for listening to Spokes and Strategy. We'll see you again soon.
