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00:00:09.349In today's episode of Spiraling Up is marketing attribution a myth Our team is going to discuss and then we're playing.
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00:00:10.490Would You Rather?
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00:00:14.300With sales and strategy expert, Amy Franco.
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00:00:16.339Thanks for being here with us everyone.
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00:00:19.640This is spiraling up with Hinge.
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00:00:26.785All right.
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00:00:33.145Welcome to Spiraling Up the podcast where professional services, marketing comes to life.
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00:00:35.365Our goal here is clear.
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00:00:40.465We are creating engaging, interactive segments, covering the latest marketing stories.
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00:00:41.484I.
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00:00:46.090And providing honest, actionable insights for marketers and business leaders.
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00:00:52.479my name is Austin and I'm joined by my co-host, Mary Blanche and Joe Mary Blanche.
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00:00:53.619How are you doing today?
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00:00:54.579Doing good.
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00:00:55.270Doing good.
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00:00:57.759How are you guys doing is the real question.
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00:00:58.270Um.
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00:01:01.090Know you both have new babies in the house.
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00:01:02.079Who's getting more sleep?
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00:01:03.134Yeah.
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00:01:04.605Austin, how much did you get last night?
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00:01:07.935Uh, not as much as I would've wished.
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00:01:12.525We've actually, our baby has been, I would say, spectacular sleeper.
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00:01:16.103Um, which, you know, blessings, knock on wood.
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00:01:20.034Do every, you know, I don't want to get in the middle or mess any of that up.
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00:01:20.513But, yeah.
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00:01:23.334Uh, last night might've been a little bit of a harder night.
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00:01:25.073Not gonna let that affect our episode, though.
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00:01:25.733How about yourself?
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00:01:26.394You doing all right?
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00:01:33.313last night was rough, but I would, I would say we're pretty much in alignment on, overall pretty good, pretty solid.
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00:01:49.183Maddie is, uh, just learning how to babble though, and when you learn a new skill, I believe the idea is that you'll just constantly do it at all hours of the night, in which case, uh, she and I had a one-way conversation, mostly her talking to me from the bassinet.
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00:01:56.992That's really funny that you said that because actually, uh, our girl started the babbling thing too, like as of yesterday.
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00:02:03.626So, and for, those who don't know, Joe and I, our little girls are like, is it like less than a week apart?
00:02:03.746 -->
00:02:04.106About a
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00:02:05.262or six days I think.
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00:02:09.462Maddie was the last baby born in 2024 at the hospital.
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00:02:12.943Uh, so we were, we were last of the alphas is what we were calling her.
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00:02:14.742I think it's generation Alphas,
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00:02:17.638Wait, so was it It was actually New Year's Eve, right?
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00:02:18.448That's right.
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00:02:18.807Yeah.
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00:02:21.334we watched college football from the, uh, delivery room.
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00:02:22.593Not my choice.
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00:02:27.813My wife is a huge Penn State fan, so she, she wanted it on the TV and I wasn't gonna deny her anything.
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00:02:29.943See that's very memorable information.
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00:02:31.593That's how, you know I'm a little bit sleep deprived.
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00:02:32.554'cause I remember that.
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00:02:36.873And our girl was born on January 2nd, so it was, it was like three days apart.
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00:02:46.302So I feel like we're, we're like tracking, uh, completely together here and kind of our experiences and be anything going on in your world, anything new.
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00:02:49.362Well, I was just, uh, you guys saying the dates.
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00:02:51.703My niece was born on the third,
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00:02:52.649wow.
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00:02:53.203a girl.
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00:02:56.353So yeah, I just got that from St.
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00:02:58.782Louis to, to meet her for the first time, so
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00:03:00.217Oh, baby cuddles.
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00:03:01.393Yeah, baby guts.
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00:03:01.633great.
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00:03:06.043All right, well, I know we've got a great episode in store today.
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00:03:09.013Why don't we turn to today's pivotal story?
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00:03:11.592All right, let's do it.
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00:03:17.953So today we're gonna be tackling a recent LinkedIn post gone viral by Shehan Ross.
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00:03:28.858Uh, fractional marketing leader at Digital Bricks Marketing, and a shout out goes to our colleague Keely, who's the one that actually shared the original post with the three of us in the first place.
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00:03:32.427But it's a topic that clearly struck a nerve with many marketers.
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00:03:34.828The hot take being that revenue is not.
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00:03:36.293A marketing KPI.
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00:03:44.332The posts go on to say that, you know, while marketing can be a driver of revenue, its sole function is not to drive revenue, it's to drive demand.
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00:03:56.902So this kind of more radical take on revenue as a marketing KPI sparked quite a debate in the comment section around what should we as marketers be focusing on and what really does define success.
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00:03:58.122For marketing teams.
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00:04:02.293Um, so y'all, I want you to give it to us straight here between the two of you.
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00:04:07.633You know, you both covered the full spectrum of all things marketing, MBD, so awesome.
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00:04:08.233Let's start with you.
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00:04:08.675Yeah.
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00:04:10.032Well, I love this.
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00:04:11.712This is a great find.
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00:04:15.223Um, and exactly the kind of topics that we want to cover in Pivotal stories.
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00:04:20.983What I can say is that there are a lot of marketers out there that agree with share hands.
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00:04:21.793Post.
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00:04:24.886Um, and actually we have research that backs it up.
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00:04:29.355In our most recent edition of the high growth study, we, we asked, um, I.
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00:04:37.911Survey participants to rate themselves on a scale of one to 10 in how proficient they felt like their organization was.
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00:04:47.240In both capturing and then using marketing and business development data and going into this research, I think we kind of suspected that this was gonna be a challenge.
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00:04:54.711That's why we wanted to measure it, but we totally did not like comprehend the degree to which this would be a challenge.
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00:04:56.399More or less.
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00:05:01.982Three out of four, marketers told us that they would rate themselves as low proficiency.
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00:05:09.420So under a six, if we were rating on a scale of one to 10 under six, three out of four said, yeah, we just don't have it.
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00:05:13.800It's not in the bag and we followed up with those people and and we got all the usual answers like.
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00:05:15.649We don't have time.
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00:05:23.872Our technology, is old or it wasn't integrated properly, but there was a handful of people that were just like, yeah, it's not important.
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00:05:29.761we just don't think that it's gonna be valuable to measure, marketing attribution, that it's just not as as important.
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00:05:31.740Now, I don't think that Shahan was.
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00:05:34.100Saying completely that it was unimportant.
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00:05:42.290I think her perspective, like many marketers is that, hey, as marketers, our job is not just to drive revenue for the company, it's to drive other things.
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00:05:47.190Like you mentioned MB demand, to Draw awareness to our brand, to nurture clients.
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00:05:50.309and, and there's, you know, a bigger conversation there.
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00:05:56.163but you know, when we have conversations with leadership, oftentimes, We wanna know about revenue.
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00:06:00.526and I think a lot of marketers are, you know, have their backs put up against the wall.
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00:06:04.307'cause I think a lot of them say like, marketing attribution is so hard.
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00:06:05.776Maybe it is a myth.
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00:06:10.098so I, I'm curious, and b, what, what, what are your thoughts, you know, and takeaways going into this is.
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00:06:13.442Yeah, I mean, I think attribution is, is key really.
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00:06:17.788I mean, it's, it's so important to really understand the role each of your channels.
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00:06:31.653Play in the sales funnel so you can get a clear picture of not only what's working, but also what you know, what's not working and you know, are you investing your energy, your budget into your time, into the strategies that are gonna provide the best ROI.
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00:06:35.577attribution also alone, it doesn't tell you the full story either.
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00:06:38.875And that's where, one KPI we haven't really talked about yet is.
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00:06:47.838looking at client lifetime value to understand the total revenue that you can expect from a client over the entire duration of your relationship with them.
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00:06:55.249Because when you can, when you can shift your mindset, and, and it really is a mindset shift from, you know, looking at that immediate.
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00:07:06.499Revenue that you're generating, client lifetime value encourages you to think about that full life cycle of the customer and how you can build those stronger, longer lasting relationships.
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00:07:09.139in terms of what should marketing teams be.
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00:07:10.184Focusing on.
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00:07:15.613So back to the original question, it's really that attribution and that client lifetime value together.
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00:07:18.434Um, you know, neither standalone, they're very interconnected, right?
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00:07:28.603Attribution, helping you to, to understand where to focus your marketing efforts, and then client lifetime value then helps you measure the true value of those efforts over time.
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00:07:35.923It is a fun topic for you and IMB especially, right Uh, being partners in a small business that sells marketing services.
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00:07:39.648So I think we live on both sides of this issue every single day.
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00:07:46.218I mean, as a business owner, I would, I would love it if clients didn't really hold us accountable to things like direct ROI.
00:07:46.218 -->
00:07:49.458I mean, we help many clients get these types of things done.
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00:07:52.338But you know, marketing is a test constantly.
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00:07:57.437You're always having to adjust and make modifications, changes, learn lessons, and so forth.
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00:08:01.187And if the only thing that somebody cares about is ROI, well.
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00:08:10.483You'll miss out on a lot of the important details and insights that can lead to performance, to drawing demand, to creating visibility.
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00:08:18.702Um, you know, I think one of the interesting things, especially for the three of us when we talk about something like this, you know, Austin, I.
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00:08:24.327Uh, runs hinges marketing, but he's a marketing expert who works with our clients, but he also runs hinges marketing.
00:08:24.718 -->
00:08:34.827Uh, I typically lead most of our sales and business development efforts, and Mary Blanche started as a project manager back in the day and is now drawing and leading our operational side of the house.
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00:08:38.128So we really do kind of cover the entire business spectrum.
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00:08:41.217Uh, just kind of interesting to kind of hear how you guys have.
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00:08:49.677Talk this through, but from the BD sales guy perspective, as somebody who listens constantly to folks saying, well, what can I expect?
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00:08:50.278Right?
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00:08:53.097What am, what am I going to get from my marketing?
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00:08:54.207What are those different elements?
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00:09:01.648The first thing I do is I, I bring up an illustration that shows the various ways of which we can measure success.
00:09:01.918 -->
00:09:04.977You know, we talk about the marketing funnel, visibility at the top.
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00:09:11.232Engagement, drawing and nurturing and developing demand in the middle and then at the bottom opportunity.
00:09:11.623 -->
00:09:19.452Uh, so when we get that MQL, how many of them can turn into something that allows us to hopefully sell into them and so forth.
00:09:19.932 -->
00:09:21.283But, uh, nope.
00:09:21.793 -->
00:09:23.923I, I gave that kind of marketing pitch.
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00:09:26.128Now let's continue the business owner perspective.
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00:09:37.227If our marketing isn't working, you know, a year or two, those types of things go down the line and you're not necessarily seeing the results of all this effort and expense, that's not acceptable either, right?
00:09:37.467 -->
00:09:41.548So another great way of thinking of how to measure.
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00:09:50.337Marketing success across the board is to pair leading and lagging indicators or KPIs together.
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00:09:55.768So when I say leading indicator, I mean something that's designed to predict future outcomes.
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00:09:57.538You know, pipeline, for example.
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00:09:59.248Uh, and lagging indicators.
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00:10:04.437That's something along the lines of, Hey, let's look and see what was our billable numbers the last 12 months.
00:10:04.738 -->
00:10:09.327So that's a performance metric, but you can actually pair these two different things together.
00:10:09.687 -->
00:10:18.898Uh, so an example of pairing would be marketing qualified leads, elements that have been driven by direct marketing efforts, and then revenue from new clients.
00:10:19.077 -->
00:10:23.817So we're gonna remove out the larger revenue picture of reoccurring revenue and so forth.
00:10:24.238 -->
00:10:26.697Uh, another could be something along the lines of if.
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00:10:29.722We're trying to look more towards existing relationships.
00:10:29.722 -->
00:10:32.572We could talk about clients' digital engagement.
00:10:32.602 -->
00:10:34.883So how many of your clients are going to your webinars?
00:10:34.972 -->
00:10:36.712How many of your clients are reading your emails?
00:10:37.513 -->
00:10:50.023You know how many clients are completely willing to answer a survey you may potentially put out, compare something like that to your retention rate, so your efforts designed to nurture and maintain your relationships.
00:10:50.293 -->
00:10:52.842So a real good discussion here.
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00:10:53.832Uh, I think I.
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00:11:02.682Sharon that, I mean, she obviously struck a nerve and uh, that's the best kind of content on LinkedIn'cause who wants to read another boring post?
00:11:03.133 -->
00:11:06.822Uh, and I, I think it's just a fun one for us to discuss as a team.
00:11:07.129 -->
00:11:10.370so much for for us to, to unpack here.
00:11:10.460 -->
00:11:11.330Um, great stuff.
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00:11:17.210MB uh, Joe, I am so excited for our next segment.
00:11:17.210 -->
00:11:18.544We have a great guest.
00:11:18.544 -->
00:11:20.299Her name is Amy Franco.
00:11:20.299 -->
00:11:22.898We're gonna tell you a little bit about her, in a moment.
00:11:23.168 -->
00:11:31.124But before we get to that segment, guys, we bring it up every episode at this point, because it is in the middle of our conversations with our great guests.
00:11:31.364 -->
00:11:33.134It is at the center of our pivotal stories.
00:11:33.134 -->
00:11:34.183What am I talking about?
00:11:34.333 -->
00:11:39.913I'm talking about hinges high growth study research, and we've mentioned it before.
00:11:39.913 -->
00:11:41.024We'll mention it again.
00:11:41.624 -->
00:11:44.024You can get this free executive summary.
00:11:44.413 -->
00:11:49.423Right now at www.hingemarketing.com/ high-growth.
00:11:49.693 -->
00:11:59.354This is the 10th year in a row that we have done this research on professional services marketing to try to understand what are the fastest growing companies doing.
00:11:59.563 -->
00:12:06.408I can tell you one thing, some of the stuff that the fastest growing companies we're doing 10 years ago is not the same, as what they're doing today.
00:12:06.499 -->
00:12:08.298So if you haven't yet.
00:12:08.749 -->
00:12:12.649Go high growth study hinge marketing do com slash high growth.
00:12:15.375 -->
00:12:15.794Okay.
00:12:15.794 -->
00:12:21.764Well, we'd like to now, welcome to the podcast today's guest, Amy Franco.
00:12:22.154 -->
00:12:26.085Amy Franco is a leader in modern sales strategies.
00:12:26.115 -->
00:12:34.304She helps mid-market organizations to grow sales results through sales strategy, advisory, and skill development programs.
00:12:34.664 -->
00:12:42.975Her book, the Modern Seller, is an Amazon bestseller, and she is recognized by LinkedIn as one of the top sales voices.
00:12:43.274 -->
00:12:44.985Welcome to Spiraling Up, Amy.
00:12:44.985 -->
00:12:45.975How are you doing today?
00:12:46.850 -->
00:12:47.595I am Great.
00:12:47.595 -->
00:12:48.554Thank you for having me.
00:12:48.554 -->
00:12:50.475I'm really looking forward to our conversation.
00:12:50.940 -->
00:12:53.370Absolutely we're, we're really looking forward to it as well.
00:12:53.370 -->
00:12:56.549Now, Amy, we've crossed paths in a few different places.
00:12:56.549 -->
00:12:57.059I think.
00:12:57.120 -->
00:13:01.354Uh, one of those is, uh, the Association for Accounting Marketing.
00:13:01.354 -->
00:13:04.114I know that you've been involved in that association.
00:13:04.114 -->
00:13:06.124You've spoken at their summit as well.
00:13:06.241 -->
00:13:10.868we were just wondering like what other places have, maybe we crossed paths or what was your involvement with aim?
00:13:10.868 -->
00:13:16.104I, I know you have a lot of experience with working with professional services firms at B2B firms.
00:13:16.778 -->
00:13:18.099Yeah, and it's interesting.
00:13:18.099 -->
00:13:22.719I'm not like, I don't have a professional like accounting background by trade.
00:13:22.719 -->
00:13:24.938I found my way into this space.
00:13:24.938 -->
00:13:32.438You know, later in my career I got my start in technology and so for the first 10 years of my career I worked for, um, IBM and Lenovo.
00:13:32.649 -->
00:13:34.629I was a quota carrying salesperson.
00:13:35.214 -->
00:13:46.464And then I, I took a pivot into entrepreneurship, oh gosh, like 17 years ago now, and got into the learning and development space and spent quite a bit of time there.
00:13:46.793 -->
00:13:54.984And then over the past decade or so, I brought together like everything I love about sales, sales, leadership, learning and development.
00:13:55.344 -->
00:13:59.663And, uh, what that looks like today is, um, I found a home in professional services.
00:13:59.663 -->
00:14:16.125So I actually spend a lot of time in professional services, public accounting and advisory, other types of professional services, working with their firm leaders, up and coming firm leaders on everything from sales and growth strategy to, uh, business development skills.
00:14:16.176 -->
00:14:17.765Amy, what could you tell us real quick?
00:14:17.765 -->
00:14:22.176Just like how did you land on a focus with, uh, with mid-market clients?
00:14:22.176 -->
00:14:24.605Because at Hinge that's something that we found as well.
00:14:24.605 -->
00:14:36.426I mean, we work with firms of all sizes, but definitely there's a lot of those mid-market players that I think where there's a lot of opportunity and we're wondering kind of like, you know, how did you find that as kind of one of your specialized areas as well?
00:14:36.576 -->
00:14:45.126I, I think I landed on mid-market because I was fortunate enough to win some clients in that mid-market space.
00:14:45.486 -->
00:14:49.777And what I found was I really resonated with.
00:14:50.784 -->
00:15:07.461direct access to all the leaders in the organization and um, being able to work more closely with a lot of the firm leaders and the people coming through my programs, that is what really has helped me to say this is a great space for me to be in.
00:15:07.701 -->
00:15:18.410And not to say that if larger organizations don't come calling, like certainly I would always welcome those conversations, but I have just found that that mid-market space is a great sweet spot.
00:15:18.770 -->
00:15:28.519They're large enough that they have what, you know, we all offer and they need it, but they aren't so large that they've built all of that capacity in house.
00:15:28.700 -->
00:15:32.629And so we've just fit in that great spot for them.
00:15:33.289 -->
00:15:38.389Enough to be dangerous, but not necessarily get it all taken care of.
00:15:38.659 -->
00:15:42.799Amy, what are some, uh, what are some other industries that you feel, uh, outside of the accounting one?
00:15:42.799 -->
00:15:44.389I know you referenced professional services.
00:15:44.389 -->
00:15:48.440Any other industries that you typically find yourself gravitating to in that mid-market Sweet spot.
00:15:48.860 -->
00:15:49.490Yeah.
00:15:49.490 -->
00:15:56.600Um, so, you know, other professional services might be like IT consulting, management, consulting, things of that, that nature.
00:15:56.779 -->
00:15:59.480But also I have clients that are in the manufacturing space.
00:15:59.720 -->
00:16:07.039I have some that are in the, um, I'll call it the FinTech space, which kind of then gets into kind of towards my roots in technology.
00:16:07.250 -->
00:16:11.870But those are probably the other industries that I spend the most time in.
00:16:12.110 -->
00:16:16.909But in terms of, you know, we think about outbound marketing and outbound relationship building.
00:16:17.090 -->
00:16:20.690A lot of my time is spent in the professional services and accounting space.
00:16:21.184 -->
00:16:34.625Well That's that must be music to the ears of anyone listening to this podcast because of, and honestly, Amy, a lot of those are industries that our content is angled towards, and I think there's gonna be some nice crossovers here, especially as we get into the game we have planned, I.
00:16:34.870 -->
00:16:35.529That's right.
00:16:35.529 -->
00:16:35.889Yeah.
00:16:35.895 -->
00:16:37.738let's turn to our, our segment, Amy.
00:16:37.798 -->
00:16:44.187Um, one thing that we like to do when we talk to experts like yourself is to.
00:16:44.363 -->
00:16:48.712Kind of set up a couple of, uh, dilemmas for you to think about, right?
00:16:48.863 -->
00:16:53.572Oftentimes marketing leaders, business leaders, like things aren't just black and white, right?
00:16:53.572 -->
00:16:58.342There's these kind of situational dilemmas that have us choosing one thing or another.
00:16:58.342 -->
00:17:04.118And, what we'd like to do is involve you and bring you into this, you know, classic form of this game.
00:17:04.358 -->
00:17:16.067Would you rather, so, Amy, in our segment, we are gonna give you some tough either or decisions that sales leaders and professionals out there might be grappling with today.
00:17:16.127 -->
00:17:28.157So we'd like to hear which way you'd choose, and then maybe hear some of your experiences and stories working with professional services leaders and maybe how this intersects with some of your perspectives on, on, on the space.
00:17:28.157 -->
00:17:30.498So you, you down and up for it.
00:17:31.208 -->
00:17:39.863I am up for it and just for anybody watching and listening, these have not been planted, so I actually don't know what they're going to ask me, so this is gonna be very entertaining.
00:17:39.863 -->
00:17:40.288Let's do it.
00:17:41.028 -->
00:17:41.823That's awesome.
00:17:42.423 -->
00:17:48.512mb our first question is, uh, I think related to a little bit of what our conversation was a little bit earlier on the episode.
00:17:48.512 -->
00:17:51.573Do you want to tee us up for our first, would you rather.
00:17:54.862 -->
00:18:06.277All right, Amy, would you rather measure a marketing team's performance based on revenue or a combination of core funnel KPIs?
00:18:07.747 -->
00:18:07.777Ooh.
00:18:08.563 -->
00:18:08.682I.
00:18:08.698 -->
00:18:28.663I would personally do core funnel KPIs because if we are focused on the right activities, and we're in agreement in the organization on what those activities are because they're high value, they're high value metrics, high value KPIs, high value activities.
00:18:29.053 -->
00:18:32.803Should yield the leads that yield revenue.
00:18:33.282 -->
00:18:36.125And I'm all, I look at the bottom line of profit.
00:18:36.395 -->
00:18:44.346So not just revenue but profit, but I'd go with the second one so that we're focused on the right activities to lead to the right opportunities.
00:18:44.855 -->
00:18:55.836You, you said something that really resonated with me just there, Amy, which was that we're in alignment on, and so your space being in sales and, you know, obvi, we're, we're in the marketing realm primarily.
00:18:56.380 -->
00:18:58.346what are, how, how do you come into that alignment?
00:18:58.646 -->
00:19:10.676What, what are some of the ways that you've felt and, and as you talked to and you provided training to leaders, to, we all know marketing's important, especially professional services, but how do we come to alignment on what those performance metrics are?
00:19:11.541 -->
00:19:11.832Yeah.
00:19:11.971 -->
00:19:19.196So maybe if I take it by, let's take it by like a service line, perhaps as an example, or an industry as an example.
00:19:19.227 -->
00:19:29.454'cause that's maybe something concrete that we can all wrap our minds around My philosophy is that marketing activities and sales activities, they should be integrated.
00:19:29.515 -->
00:19:35.634They are different, but they're both mission critical to being able to be successful.
00:19:35.785 -->
00:19:46.615And that's something I'm seeing, um, change in professional services, public accounting, where, you have to have a marketing and a sales function.
00:19:47.051 -->
00:19:50.770Take the people out of the equation, but just the roles in the, in the activities.
00:19:50.980 -->
00:19:59.420So if I am leading an industry, I want to understand what, the revenue and profit goals of that industry segment are.
00:19:59.779 -->
00:20:08.240And then I want to talk to marketing leaders and sales leaders on how we can all come to an agreement on what the right measurements are.
00:20:08.569 -->
00:20:16.430I'm a big fan of less is more, and then what the right activities are that will put us in the best position to create opportunities.
00:20:16.984 -->
00:20:37.269One thing I'm thinking about as, as you're talking through that is I can't tell you how many clients that we work with where there is some sort of misalignment between what the marketing team says they're doing and you know, leadership still feeling like having this big, broad, disconnect of like understanding like why, why are we doing this again?
00:20:37.269 -->
00:20:40.359Why are we spending so much on, on Google ads right now?
00:20:40.359 -->
00:20:43.509Why are we paying for this conference every year?
00:20:43.539 -->
00:20:45.789Like, I don't know what we're getting out of it.
00:20:46.194 -->
00:21:01.038and so this is like Amy one, one of the things we've measured recently, from our annual high growth study is that we've identified that, Generally professional services firms are really weak when it comes to, capturing and using business development and marketing metrics.
00:21:01.219 -->
00:21:22.521I'm wondering if you have any stories to share about, you know, a client you've worked with where you kind of got the sense that the firm leadership was like totally disconnected from what the marketing team was doing, did you think it was kind of on that topic of attribution and like they just weren't getting the right data, that the marketing team wasn't making a compelling case for the work they were doing?
00:21:22.912 -->
00:21:28.094Or was it actually like Yeah, there just wasn't enough happening that, at the company in terms of the marketing.
00:21:28.773 -->
00:21:35.943Yeah, I'm thinking of a couple of examples where, um, one of the biggest culprits was language and.
00:21:36.644 -->
00:21:45.124The language of the business and what the business wants to accomplish versus the language and the activities of marketing.
00:21:45.513 -->
00:21:55.894So many times what I see, especially when people are really, they're, they're technical and they are really brilliant at their particular craft in this, in this case, marketing.
00:21:56.374 -->
00:22:15.963It's being able to take the technical aspects of it and be a translator to why it matters to the business, and being able to use language that is business oriented, results oriented versus technically oriented.
00:22:16.203 -->
00:22:19.354That's a misalignment that I see really often.
00:22:19.953 -->
00:22:24.390And then the other misalignment that I see is the confusion of activities to results.
00:22:25.079 -->
00:22:31.095So I think Google ads or just, just social in general is an arena where.
00:22:32.025 -->
00:22:46.545It's likes and impressions and reactions don't always align to creating tangible opportunity, and that's another misalignment that I see happen pretty frequently.
00:22:47.374 -->
00:22:56.013one of the key takeaways from our earlier discussion was kind of the combination of leading and la lagging indicators and how they can potentially be meshed together.
00:22:56.284 -->
00:23:09.064I think that one you just provided is a, is a great example, right, where it's, if you, sure it's working, we're getting impressions, but at the end of the day, six months, seven months down the line, we still haven't seen revenue from that.
00:23:09.394 -->
00:23:12.423There's clearly a disconnect in how that can then translate forward.
00:23:13.473 -->
00:23:17.913Well, I think you just hit on a point, which is the other disconnect is the time to measure.
00:23:18.423 -->
00:23:26.824How much time, how much time do we allow ourselves to measure something before we, um, pivot off of it.
00:23:27.064 -->
00:23:37.864I was actually, ju you just reminded me of a client I was talking to a couple weeks ago and one of the activities I asked them to bring to our conversation was, I want you to do an analysis.
00:23:37.864 -->
00:23:41.403It doesn't have to be heavy handed of your sales activities.
00:23:41.403 -->
00:23:46.354This could also be done for marketing activities, but what activities actually produce.
00:23:46.443 -->
00:23:53.973A return IE opportunities, something's closed, whatever, and which ones are not bringing you any value.
00:23:54.183 -->
00:24:01.354And I want you to bring a list of those so that we could make some decisions about which ones are gonna go as we oftentimes hang on to things.
00:24:01.864 -->
00:24:07.443Because at some point they were budgeted for and somebody said this was a great idea.
00:24:07.473 -->
00:24:07.834Right?
00:24:07.834 -->
00:24:09.003I see a lot of head nods here.
00:24:09.334 -->
00:24:12.570And we give ourselves too much runway before we, um.
00:24:13.463 -->
00:24:13.702Yeah.
00:24:13.702 -->
00:24:23.242And I, I mean, I know anecdotally I've, I've met a lot of marketers where it's like a particular partner at a company has like an emotional stake in a certain activity.
00:24:23.303 -->
00:24:31.163And it's like, well, I mean, we're not sure it's quite the best fit as the marketing team, but hey, you know, this guy has a lot of influence.
00:24:31.163 -->
00:24:33.563we, you know, we gotta let him go to his golf tournament or something.
00:24:33.563 -->
00:24:33.772I don't
00:24:33.907 -->
00:24:34.448There it is.
00:24:35.063 -->
00:24:36.893Joe, I'm not talking about Joe, by the way.
00:24:36.952 -->
00:24:38.542Uh, I'm not talking about Joe, by the way.
00:24:38.996 -->
00:24:43.016I think we could talk about this topic all day, but I wanna make sure we get to some of our other questions.
00:24:43.016 -->
00:24:46.675We've got some other good ones here, Amy, uh, and B, what's our next, would you rather.
00:24:47.486 -->
00:24:47.846Yep.
00:24:47.875 -->
00:24:48.175All right.
00:24:48.175 -->
00:24:52.016So Amy, for second, would you rather, uh, would you rather.
00:24:53.036 -->
00:24:59.455lead a team that excels in traditional sales tactics but is resistant to change?
00:24:59.786 -->
00:25:03.355Or a team that's adaptable but they're less experienced?
00:25:04.226 -->
00:25:06.056Adaptable and less experienced.
00:25:07.165 -->
00:25:08.846All day, every day.
00:25:09.298 -->
00:25:25.992in the first scenario, there's no guarantee that even when, even when somebody has skills in like the traditional selling and, and foundational selling is important, but if there's no adaptation, you're going to get passed by.
00:25:26.053 -->
00:25:33.403At a certain point, I'd rather have a team that's adaptable and a little bit less experienced, and maybe they haven't developed too many bad habits yet.
00:25:33.673 -->
00:25:38.442That can be, um, you know, that that can be, that can be capitalized on.
00:25:38.653 -->
00:25:41.532I'll take enthusiasm and adaptability all day.
00:25:42.198 -->
00:25:43.458You mentioned bad habits.
00:25:43.827 -->
00:25:44.857Let's talk through some of those.
00:25:45.432 -->
00:25:46.603Oh, yes.
00:25:46.932 -->
00:25:48.343Uh, where, where shall we start?
00:25:48.643 -->
00:25:54.928Um, Probably one of the most challenging.
00:25:55.512 -->
00:26:10.737Bad habit to, um, to reverse is when you've accomplished success and you've enjoyed success, and you have created a degree of success, say with your current client base, I think this is very true in all professional services.
00:26:11.126 -->
00:26:20.487You've accomplished it with your client base, and that has now become like a run rate in an, in an expected outcome each and every year.
00:26:21.116 -->
00:26:43.856And then all of a sudden, because you have gotten yourself kind of lulled into this groove, all of a sudden a competitor comes in and takes out your run rate business or the client's business has changed significantly and you know, for things that are beyond outside of your control, and now all of a sudden the success that you've had is now a liability.
00:26:44.247 -->
00:26:51.656And if you aren't adaptable and you haven't been thinking about that all long now your success is, is a liability.
00:26:52.332 -->
00:26:52.511Yeah.
00:26:52.511 -->
00:26:58.571Amy, the marketing equivalent to this is when folks come to us and they, uh, they, they're looking for marketing strategy.
00:26:58.571 -->
00:27:01.961They're looking for help in identifying what the right tactics are.
00:27:02.321 -->
00:27:10.632And then when we talk about the advantages of bringing research into this, pers like this larger perspective, of course hinge.
00:27:10.632 -->
00:27:20.201We have research that we can bring to the table, but we don't know your ideal client like this client A, that's gonna provide you with the best, uh, lifetime value.
00:27:20.201 -->
00:27:21.372Things along those lines.
00:27:21.372 -->
00:27:23.112And we bring up the idea of research.
00:27:23.112 -->
00:27:27.247And one of the first things that sometimes we'll hear is, well, I know my clients, I'll just tell you what they said.
00:27:28.872 -->
00:27:34.602I'll tell you, they know I know my clients really well and, uh, you know, I play golf with'em, making fun of golf earlier.
00:27:34.632 -->
00:27:45.551But, uh, the, the ability for them to then understand that things change and competitors change and reality changes, technology changes.
00:27:45.731 -->
00:27:53.082We saw AI pop up as a big concern, uh, across professional services in our latest high growth study.
00:27:53.082 -->
00:28:05.561And, and how it's gonna be incorporated in these things are what may mean that sure, you might know your client to a C level, C plus level, but if you really want the a, you really wanna understand what it looks like.
00:28:06.132 -->
00:28:14.922Sometimes asking questions from a impartial third party can really provide great benefits and, and so I just resonated really closely to, as you were talking that through.
00:28:15.537 -->
00:28:31.981I think that that last comment about the outside perspective becomes really important and it's, um, this is less a like a sales or marketing habit, but just more of a general habit if for anybody who's in a decision making capacity in their organization, or maybe you have influence.
00:28:32.731 -->
00:28:38.432If we swing the pendulum one way or the other too far, it becomes really a challenge.
00:28:38.582 -->
00:28:42.481Like if, if we send everything to the outside.
00:28:43.372 -->
00:28:51.412That's a challenge because we don't maintain our own thought processes, if you will, our own internal intellectual capital.
00:28:51.531 -->
00:29:08.422But if we do everything ourselves, which is a lot, that that's typically the other end of the pendulum, that people, that organizations are most prone to where they try to do everything themselves with no outside perspective, then all of a sudden everything's passed them by and they're wondering why.
00:29:09.115 -->
00:29:14.125You, you mentioned something earlier as well in terms of foundational sales, right?
00:29:14.215 -->
00:29:29.455Uh, if you can get that team of, they've got some level, some foundational experience, but they're eager and they're ready to learn and they're ready to adapt and grow, uh, what are some of the foundations that you typically really like to see, uh, that you can build on quickly?
00:29:30.155 -->
00:29:30.445Yeah.
00:29:30.586 -->
00:29:33.881So, um, if I were to point to.
00:29:34.496 -->
00:29:40.346I'd say two or three things from a sales standpoint, but that also really tie to marketing.
00:29:41.336 -->
00:30:15.415There's probably no shortage of activities that we could do for marketing or sales, but if we're really gonna hone in on things that are foundational, that create opportunity and drive revenue and drive profit, it's, um, prospecting, which is being out in the community, out in the marketplace, whatever that looks like for you, where you are meeting new people, cultivating new relationships, and ultimately cultivating new opportunities, which is where marketing and can of course, be a huge help with that, that, that, that strategy.
00:30:16.165 -->
00:30:18.715There's, um, active sales conversations.
00:30:19.016 -->
00:30:28.496So we need to be having conversations with prospective clients and current clients about what's happening in their organization and ideally uncovering opportunities to help them.
00:30:29.006 -->
00:30:46.135And then it's actively presenting, um, proposals, engagements, solutions to those clients, something that somebody with authority makes a decision over that ideally is a yes, if it's a right fit, that we could move on if we paid attention to those three things.
00:30:46.405 -->
00:30:54.205And if marketing and sales came together to focus on those three things, we'd get further faster.
00:30:54.355 -->
00:31:00.566And then of course, there's other things we can focus on, but those are three of the basics to put time and attention to.
00:31:01.496 -->
00:31:10.885And, and so for the less experienced folks, having just some amount of experience in those three presents you with kind of the, the channels to build into.
00:31:10.945 -->
00:31:11.276Right.
00:31:11.441 -->
00:31:13.346I'm, I'm, that's how I'm, how I'm hearing this.
00:31:13.675 -->
00:31:14.395Absolutely.
00:31:14.395 -->
00:31:27.685And if you have a team that's younger and maybe, or just maybe less experienced, let's say, um, it's that first one, being out in the community and talking to people, building relationships.
00:31:27.836 -->
00:31:30.536Maybe you're partnered with somebody who is more experienced.
00:31:30.536 -->
00:31:31.945Maybe it's a partner in your firm.
00:31:31.945 -->
00:31:35.546Maybe it's somebody who, um, has a business development role in your firm.
00:31:35.546 -->
00:31:45.236There's any number of ways to do that, but just being out and getting into the habit of meeting people, building your network, having conversations.
00:31:45.415 -->
00:31:50.846If you're gonna start somewhere with a less experienced individual or team, that's a great place to start.
00:31:51.355 -->
00:31:51.445Yeah.
00:31:51.445 -->
00:31:51.955That's great.
00:31:51.955 -->
00:31:52.675That's great insight.
00:31:52.675 -->
00:31:52.705I
00:31:53.280 -->
00:31:57.451I think that's a really good point too, especially for younger people and kinda how we've come out of Covid.
00:31:57.451 -->
00:32:07.441They don't have they don't have that prior experience of what it was like getting out there and having that networking and, you know, building that rapport, um, with different people, partnerships, they, they don't have.
00:32:07.681 -->
00:32:13.381That, so like really starting them out and making that a priority and, and teaching them early, getting them out there.
00:32:13.381 -->
00:32:14.566That's, that's good advice.
00:32:15.260 -->
00:32:18.086I have one client and, and marketing plays a role in this.
00:32:18.086 -->
00:32:22.465I have one client where, um, they do things like, uh, research calls.
00:32:22.465 -->
00:32:36.776They do, uh, ride-alongs where that does give people the opportunity to spend real time, um, understanding client challenges or being out with somebody in the field who has that business development experience.
00:32:36.986 -->
00:32:41.306And that is actually a function of, um, marketing and sales together.
00:32:42.461 -->
00:32:45.638All right, so Embi, what's our next, uh, would you rather.
00:32:46.074 -->
00:32:55.284All right, next, would you rather, all right, would you rather focus on selling to established industries or emerging markets?
00:32:55.973 -->
00:32:58.163Ooh, okay.
00:32:59.243 -->
00:33:02.483I personally love emerging markets like that.
00:33:02.483 -->
00:33:09.804That is like my, I, I enjoy being out in new places and building new relationships and finding new opportunity.
00:33:10.044 -->
00:33:12.594So I'm answering that from my perspective.
00:33:13.163 -->
00:33:26.874If I were to answer that from a, like a client base perspective, I would go, I would go the, um, the former route, looking at your existing clients, and here's why.
00:33:27.953 -->
00:33:40.61470% of an organization's revenue typically comes from run rate business and existing clients, and about 30% roughly will come from net new logos coming into your organization.
00:33:41.304 -->
00:34:00.443It is less of an opportunity cost for your firm to maintain your run rate and find new opportunities in your existing client base and then augment that with new opportunities like new pipeline, new net, new logos.
00:34:00.683 -->
00:34:05.453So, um, so if I answer that from the client perspective, I'd, I'd go with the first one.
00:34:05.513 -->
00:34:11.454And first sho, make sure you're shoring up existing clients and finding those new opportunities in your existing clients.
00:34:11.634 -->
00:34:14.213Protect your downside and grow that.
00:34:14.213 -->
00:34:17.273Grow the existing base while also augmenting.
00:34:18.099 -->
00:34:23.559You did say you were an entrepreneur, so I do understand that the natural tendency is to go to the emerging market.
00:34:23.798 -->
00:34:26.498What, what are some of the, what are some of the other excitement factors there?
00:34:26.498 -->
00:34:26.708Right.
00:34:26.708 -->
00:34:36.938So when you, when you look at emerging markets, uh, and in that entrepreneurial mindset, what, what are you typically kind of wanna see before you jump into it or target it or go to that event?
00:34:36.998 -->
00:34:39.789Uh, that really will, uh, key to your interest.
00:34:40.197 -->
00:34:42.009Yeah, that's a great question.
00:34:42.009 -->
00:34:44.318Um, think about it for myself.
00:34:44.438 -->
00:34:52.418I'm gonna, I'm gonna answer that from how I might counsel my clients on that, because how I might do it might be a little bit different than what, than like a, than a client might.
00:34:52.840 -->
00:34:59.320I think this is where marketing can play a really significant role in an emerging market.
00:35:00.114 -->
00:35:12.135Because there's a lot, to your earlier point about research, there's a lot of research that can be, gathered, analyzed about an emerging market, the total addressable market, the solution market for you.
00:35:12.135 -->
00:35:16.800All, all the things that like you hear in startup, startup language, how it might be funded.
00:35:17.271 -->
00:35:19.635Like, are you go, is the firm gonna self-fund it?
00:35:19.666 -->
00:35:25.246Are you going to look for maybe outside investment, which is probably a whole other, uh, conversation.
00:35:25.396 -->
00:35:30.885But I would leverage marketing if I were considering an emerging market for all that research piece.
00:35:31.396 -->
00:35:44.356And then once I've done that and I figure out what my metrics are, then I'm going to look for what are my best opportunities to experiment in this market that are low risk.
00:35:44.806 -->
00:35:48.436But help me to understand what our position could be in the market.
00:35:49.094 -->
00:35:52.664If we go back to that, um, established industry side, right.
00:35:52.664 -->
00:35:59.264Which I think for when you were talking about how you would kind of advise your clients directly, that's you, you'd lead'em in that direction.
00:35:59.623 -->
00:36:15.579Are there any like pitfalls there that like you just see over and over again when you, when you start a new engagement with some of your clients, what are some of the common things that you see in terms of like that run rate and those, those core central clients that are being neglected by, by teams?
00:36:15.579 -->
00:36:18.548I would say there are probably two things I see the most often.
00:36:19.449 -->
00:36:29.648The first is, and this kind of goes into the camp of assuming that you're, you'll continue to get the same business over and over, is lack of a of strategic account planning.
00:36:30.579 -->
00:36:37.148So if you look at your top, you know, say 20% of your clients, the chances are really good.
00:36:37.148 -->
00:36:39.878They account for a significant portion of your business.
00:36:40.059 -->
00:36:41.978It's that, that old 80 20 rule, right?
00:36:42.358 -->
00:36:52.557and one thing that I see lacking often is no, uh, strategic plan for maintaining and growing that client.
00:36:53.217 -->
00:36:54.807Relationships change.
00:36:54.838 -->
00:36:59.338People move in and out of organizations and many times clients, um.
00:36:59.952 -->
00:37:04.873They get stuck because they've lost a key relationship that maybe they weren't paying attention to.
00:37:04.873 -->
00:37:06.762Maybe that person left the organization.
00:37:07.003 -->
00:37:08.532So it's that account planning.
00:37:08.893 -->
00:37:30.650And then second, and this is probably a little bit more on the tactical side, and probably something that marketing and sales could do together, which is, um, We get used to selling the services that we, that we're already doing, but it does take that proactive approach to get into the organization, to find other problems to solve.
00:37:31.010 -->
00:37:39.860And sometimes we don't do it because we don't feel confident with who to talk to and what questions to ask and how to conduct those conversations.
00:37:40.581 -->
00:37:45.110If we can we correct the code on that and have a proactive approach to it.
00:37:45.545 -->
00:38:02.856That puts us in a much better position to find the project that's in it versus in finance or to find the, um, I don't know the, the marketing opportunity that we could help with because we're stuck in some other area of the business.
00:38:02.856 -->
00:38:04.565So I see that pretty frequently.
00:38:05.780 -->
00:38:14.331This is a reason why we really lean towards a qualitative type of research when trying to develop the strategic plan that you were just talking about, Amy.
00:38:14.751 -->
00:38:21.800Uh, and like you were saying, this is a strategic plan or research that's typically focused on the top types of clients.
00:38:21.800 -->
00:38:33.001So your top 10, top 20, but by taking a qualitative perspective, interviews versus survey, for example, you have the opportunity to ask for more, right?
00:38:33.001 -->
00:38:36.240Like you, you ask a question and they give you an answer.
00:38:36.240 -->
00:38:45.030But you, you, you can listen in really closely, having experts who do these types of things all the time, uh, do interviews and research and, and start to pull those threads a little bit further.
00:38:45.030 -->
00:38:54.150And the next thing you know, when you stretch it out, over 20 responses, 30 responses, 80% of those responses all pointed to this new technology.
00:38:54.525 -->
00:39:10.141You may or may not have ever been thinking about, and then suddenly we have the basis for what might make sense for that next iteration or how we could potentially grow our own practices or you know, some of the larger folks, it's who are we gonna go and buy next in terms of bringing in skillsets,
00:39:11.496 -->
00:39:19.101And to play that thread out, you know, let's say that you do, you, you've, you've done that research and you've uncovered this pattern.
00:39:20.436 -->
00:39:22.172We can't know everything about everything.
00:39:22.202 -->
00:39:22.681Right?
00:39:23.012 -->
00:39:34.202But if we, if we can understand the high level implications of something like that, and then have a couple of good questions to ask to frame up a conversation.
00:39:34.802 -->
00:39:37.052I've, I've, I'm seeing this in the research.
00:39:37.052 -->
00:39:38.762Let's talk about how this might be impacting you.
00:39:39.717 -->
00:39:42.507Let's talk about what a next conversation could be.
00:39:42.836 -->
00:39:46.317That's way different than feeling like you have to come in with all the answers.
00:39:47.101 -->
00:39:47.615All right.
00:39:47.646 -->
00:39:52.985We got time for a couple more here before I got a surprise for us in a, in a minute, but I'm not gonna spoil it yet.
00:39:52.985 -->
00:39:55.025Mb what's, what's our next, would you rather.
00:39:55.436 -->
00:39:55.795All right.
00:39:55.795 -->
00:39:56.635Let's see.
00:39:56.635 -->
00:39:57.985would you rather.
00:39:58.315 -->
00:40:07.826enhance your sales team's expertise in traditional sales methods or in new technologies such as AI and automation?
00:40:08.563 -->
00:40:10.063I'm gonna go with the former
00:40:11.208 -->
00:40:11.498Okay.
00:40:11.588 -->
00:40:12.608Skills, not tech.
00:40:14.413 -->
00:40:19.182because it's, um, a little bit of background on myself.
00:40:19.182 -->
00:40:40.032It's interesting coming from, from a technology background myself, how much I've always personally gravitated toward, in, leaned on the, what I'll call the more traditional aspects of selling, which is the relationship building aspects, conversational aspects versus using technology.
00:40:41.112 -->
00:40:53.213However, um, I wish that, I wish that yes and could be an answer because, um, really smart sellers and marketers don't shy away from using technology.
00:40:53.483 -->
00:40:54.862You can't not use it.
00:40:55.853 -->
00:41:02.963Sometimes what happens is we feel overwhelmed by it or we have too many tools and therefore we're not effective with any of it.
00:41:03.443 -->
00:41:12.472So I really like having the foundational skills that then tools and technologies the right ones can augment.
00:41:13.163 -->
00:41:28.242So, for example, I myself love to use AI tools for, helping me with initial, um, like either background research or maybe, giving me some ideas for smart questions.
00:41:28.722 -->
00:41:30.492But I never just rely on that.
00:41:31.242 -->
00:41:36.643I use it and then I use it kind of as a starting point for the next work.
00:41:37.152 -->
00:41:47.083So being able to blend tools, whether it's AI tools, it's things like, um, well in, in the sales world, you might use something like, um, sales navigator.
00:41:47.262 -->
00:41:51.432You have your CRM, like what are the tools that can help you?
00:41:51.672 -->
00:41:53.143But they can't become crutches.
00:41:53.762 -->
00:42:05.521Yeah, and where you can, you know, over just having a bunch of siloed tools that you're using, like how can you integrate them with one another to create that kind of ecosystem of tools.
00:42:05.521 -->
00:42:07.891So the data's all speaking to one another.
00:42:08.342 -->
00:42:09.242Right, right.
00:42:09.242 -->
00:42:26.251And um, this data's probably a couple years old at this point, but at one point I think per sales professional, and this is not professional services specific, but upwards of$5,000 per sales professional on tools alone.
00:42:26.251 -->
00:42:27.331Technology tools.
00:42:27.692 -->
00:42:32.612So multiply that out by, you know, the staff that you have and I would offer that.
00:42:32.612 -->
00:42:39.811Professional services probably has some similar types of numbers with all the tools that are available and professional services these days.
00:42:40.141 -->
00:42:40.711And.
00:42:41.056 -->
00:42:45.496You talk about like making an investment and coming all the way back around to ROI.
00:42:46.306 -->
00:42:58.876It's not just events, ROI, but like the technology tools, ROI, how much are we putting out in financial investments every year versus like the meaningful usage of those tools?
00:42:59.717 -->
00:43:11.056Uh, hinge is not a pure, what you might call technology implementation partner, but we naturally have to get involved in discussing them with our clients based off of tracking of performance.
00:43:11.056 -->
00:43:18.197And, uh, it is just how they are so ingrained, as you just said, Amy, and, and basically everything that professional services organizations are doing.
00:43:18.197 -->
00:43:28.556But I will tell you the amount that have made these investments but aren't using them properly or just aren't using them at all, is astounding, right?
00:43:28.556 -->
00:43:33.027Like it's gone from people that don't even have them to, they have them, but they just don't use them.
00:43:33.972 -->
00:43:38.291Mind boggling how much money is invested in these tools.
00:43:38.501 -->
00:43:47.052I'm thinking about an example of for, for myself with a client where we were looking at using, um, a tool for a client organization.
00:43:47.112 -->
00:43:56.981And a lot of times with, with that type of scenario, I will, um, tested out myself before using it or think about my own use cases.
00:43:57.251 -->
00:44:10.722And we had started to go down the path of looking at a tool and then after some conversations and just understanding all the other tools in the organization, we decided not to do it because it was going to be a tool for the sake of having a tool.
00:44:10.992 -->
00:44:19.092And they had other technologies already in the firm that would've gotten them a large percentage of the way.
00:44:19.302 -->
00:44:28.512And if instead we invested in, if I worked with them on how to adapt what I was doing to using their tool, that was gonna be a much better solution for them.
00:44:29.009 -->
00:44:33.989we have a rule here at Hinge that we remain platform agnostic for that reason.
00:44:34.148 -->
00:44:34.568Mm-hmm.
00:44:35.284 -->
00:44:36.708All right, we ready for our next?
00:44:36.708 -->
00:44:43.489Uh, would you rather, this is kind of, this next one's kind of like a worse or or worse, but, um,
00:44:44.268 -->
00:44:45.378Would you not rather.
00:44:45.438 -->
00:44:45.648yeah,
00:44:46.594 -->
00:44:47.523Two bad choices.
00:44:47.523 -->
00:44:48.063Let's bring it
00:44:48.528 -->
00:44:49.009Love it.
00:44:49.518 -->
00:44:49.938Okay.
00:44:49.938 -->
00:45:05.298So would you rather have a sales person who talks excessively and doesn't effectively listen to the client's needs, or one who is too passive and fails to proactively guide the client through the sales process?
00:45:05.621 -->
00:45:13.688I would take the former, the reason why I would take the first situation is if there's some really good, like raw skill to work with.
00:45:14.077 -->
00:45:24.938And the challenge is just being, if the challenge is slowing down and listening and pausing, I can work with that.
00:45:25.237 -->
00:45:45.128A leader can work with that and coach to that ideally, and then you can kind of dial it back a little bit versus the second scenario where you may have somebody that simply isn't, doesn't have the, like, the wiring for that.
00:45:45.128 -->
00:45:56.378Like they're, so there might be some other, like if they're too timid, they're too passive, if they, there might be, there just might be a lot of hurdles to overcome
00:45:56.827 -->
00:45:58.027I, I agree with you.
00:45:58.027 -->
00:45:59.318Just hearing you talk through that.
00:45:59.318 -->
00:45:59.858rationale.
00:45:59.858 -->
00:46:03.217The first one is much more of a coachable
00:46:04.237 -->
00:46:04.867Yeah.
00:46:04.867 -->
00:46:08.378And, and it really does come down to how coachable the person is.
00:46:08.648 -->
00:46:15.487Um, there was some interesting research that was done, um, by, uh, Adam Grant in Wharton School of Business.
00:46:15.878 -->
00:46:21.307And, um, this research is a few years old at this point, but I, I still think that the concepts are very relevant.
00:46:21.518 -->
00:46:33.577He wanted to, um, explore who would be a more successful sales professional, someone who was more extroverted, which is your first example, or someone who is more introverted.
00:46:33.998 -->
00:46:41.467And, you know, the, the wor the working theory was that somebody who was highly extroverted would be more successful as a seller.
00:46:41.858 -->
00:46:55.117So, so after, after performing the research on, I think it was maybe 300, 300 plus sales professionals, the, the revelation that he came to, which was really interesting, was that most of us.
00:46:55.628 -->
00:46:59.197Two thirds of us are neither extroverted nor introverted.
00:46:59.197 -->
00:47:04.027We tend to fall somewhere on a scale, um, that he called being an ambivert.
00:47:05.228 -->
00:47:10.351And I'm more on the extroverted side, but I still consider myself to be an ambivert.
00:47:10.440 -->
00:47:13.141Um, but I'm, I lean toward being more extroverted.
00:47:14.521 -->
00:47:17.820But if you are an ambivert, you tend to be a better listener.
00:47:17.880 -->
00:47:19.351You tend to be more flexible.
00:47:19.530 -->
00:47:28.050You tend to be able to read a, read a room because you're not so focused on what it is that you're going to say next, or talking or owning the conversation.
00:47:28.351 -->
00:47:34.201So that, that's the danger of somebody who leans toward talking too much.
00:47:34.590 -->
00:47:41.760But if they are a coachable individual, I would take that and I'd work with them and coach them and help them to build those skills in.
00:47:42.960 -->
00:47:49.126Uh, Amy, I, every, I completely just found myself nodding along to everything you kind of, that you were just saying.
00:47:49.635 -->
00:47:55.215For somebody who is more introverted, and maybe we'll just say they're kind of in.
00:47:55.215 -->
00:48:02.655a position where they have to sell, maybe it's a smaller client, for example, and, and if they're, if they're not gonna do it, then no one's gonna do it, then they're in a big, they're in a big challenge.
00:48:02.896 -->
00:48:04.335What are some ways that you help.
00:48:04.635 -->
00:48:15.509Train or see if you can help bring people out of their shells, for example, and, and, uh, bring it forward so they can just get to that level enough where they can, they can make the connections.
00:48:15.721 -->
00:48:19.891yeah, and that's probably a very real situation in a lot of firms where, um, yeah.
00:48:20.880 -->
00:48:22.981Where you do, you do need to bring people along.
00:48:22.981 -->
00:48:32.101And I've, and I've seen this in some of the firms that I've worked with, and sometimes it takes some time and, and patience and encouragement for somebody to kind of come out of their shell.
00:48:32.431 -->
00:48:42.090I can think of at least one or two scenarios where, um, a lot of times when I'm working with my clients, we'll work together for a couple of years on business development, um, skills.
00:48:42.391 -->
00:48:54.420And I remember after year one in one organization, we'll take a look and we'll evaluate who's come through the program and, and who would they like to continue investing in for a second year because it is an investment.
00:48:54.840 -->
00:49:01.771And there were, there was at least one individual I can think of that it's like, man, it just really isn't, this doesn't really seem to be working.
00:49:02.110 -->
00:49:09.221For this person because of all the things that you just mentioned, like really shy, really introverted, really struggled to speak in front of a group.
00:49:09.760 -->
00:49:16.960But when, um, it came back around to coming through for a second year, this person raised their hand and said, I really want to do this.
00:49:17.170 -->
00:49:38.681Like, I know that these are things that I need to work on, but I know I can work on them and I know I can get better and I'm committed to doing it, which is why I take somebody who's committed, you know, all day and that person came back through a second, a second year, and just watching this individual grow over that second year's time was amazing.
00:49:38.920 -->
00:49:47.710Still, you know, still on the like quiet or shy side, but much more willing to take risk and much more willing to stand up in front of a group.
00:49:48.101 -->
00:49:55.451Um, so I would encourage, you know, some patients, but with people who are raising their hands to say, I know I need to work on this.
00:49:55.780 -->
00:49:59.590Let's figure out how, how to do that, and then work with them.
00:49:59.971 -->
00:50:08.766I'd maybe work with them on what are some things that we can, what are some ways that you think you would like to step outta your comfort zone, and how can I help you to do that?
00:50:09.599 -->
00:50:10.349All right.
00:50:10.349 -->
00:50:13.800Well Amy, this has been such a great conversation so far.
00:50:13.889 -->
00:50:18.494Um, we've got about five minutes left, so what about a lightning round?
00:50:18.494 -->
00:50:26.324Are you up for a, a lightning round with us, where we give you kind of the rest of our, would you rathers and we can see, uh, how many we can get through in the next five minutes?
00:50:26.704 -->
00:50:27.650All right, let's do it.
00:50:27.650 -->
00:50:28.280I love it.
00:50:29.715 -->
00:50:35.235Well, we'll, we'll cue the timer and we'll maybe, you know, maybe we'll get some thunder and lightning music.
00:50:35.235 -->
00:50:35.324I
00:50:35.375 -->
00:50:36.965We need some music in the background.
00:50:37.065 -->
00:50:37.485Yeah, we'll get.
00:50:38.809 -->
00:50:40.655Some, bring some energy into it.
00:50:40.985 -->
00:50:46.056Um, but you've, you've mentioned, you, you've been doing so great with, you know, this, this has been super insightful.
00:50:46.108 -->
00:50:48.237I'm gonna go ahead and queue up the timer.
00:50:48.538 -->
00:50:51.777Why don't we get going with this mb you got the prompts.
00:50:51.777 -->
00:50:52.648Let's go.
00:50:52.648 -->
00:50:52.677I.
00:50:53.143 -->
00:50:54.148All right, let's do it.
00:50:54.208 -->
00:50:54.478Okay.
00:50:54.478 -->
00:50:58.768So first up, Exceptional written communication skills.
00:50:59.307 -->
00:51:01.887or vocal communication abilities.
00:51:02.833 -->
00:51:05.097Exceptional written communication skills.
00:51:05.518 -->
00:51:05.938Love it.
00:51:05.967 -->
00:51:06.447Okay.
00:51:06.538 -->
00:51:07.378I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep going.
00:51:07.378 -->
00:51:08.038We're gonna keep going here.
00:51:08.038 -->
00:51:08.608It's a lightning round.
00:51:09.628 -->
00:51:13.137Uh, existing clients or new prospects.
00:51:14.188 -->
00:51:20.307I love new prospects, but I would counsel my clients to pursue and grow existing clients right now.
00:51:21.568 -->
00:51:21.987Love it.
00:51:22.047 -->
00:51:22.617All right.
00:51:22.617 -->
00:51:25.742Short term or long term sales targets.
00:51:26.878 -->
00:51:35.012Ooh, long-term sales targets, because short-term sales targets may not lead to long-term success.
00:51:36.387 -->
00:51:36.807Yep.
00:51:37.137 -->
00:51:37.527Yep.
00:51:38.577 -->
00:51:50.728One high value deal with a potentially difficult client or staggered smaller phase deals with an established relationship.
00:51:51.478 -->
00:52:09.447The second, because no matter how much of a big deal that you land, if that client is really difficult, that could become an unprofitable, difficult client really quickly, and you could end up with a lot of morale and cultural problems in your organization.
00:52:09.628 -->
00:52:10.708Oh, solid point.
00:52:10.708 -->
00:52:11.188Yep.
00:52:11.248 -->
00:52:11.668Yep.
00:52:12.507 -->
00:52:13.407Um, okay.
00:52:13.648 -->
00:52:22.438Uh, prioritize building deep relationships with existing clients or aggressively prospect for new leads.
00:52:23.338 -->
00:52:27.358Oh, I have to say both on this one.
00:52:27.358 -->
00:52:28.197And here's why.
00:52:28.527 -->
00:52:39.297Because I believe you can simultaneously build deep relationships and you have to prospect in your existing clients and you have to build across your clients.
00:52:39.478 -->
00:52:50.728If you only have two or three relationships and an existing client, and this depends on client size, you could be, you could be at risk, um, of losing that client.
00:52:50.967 -->
00:52:59.038So I would aggressively prospect in my existing clients, but you also have to, you have to keep that, that pipeline fresh.
00:52:59.248 -->
00:53:01.947So I'm gonna have to say, I'm gonna have to say both on that one.
00:53:02.052 -->
00:53:02.893You can get one.
00:53:03.043 -->
00:53:04.012yeah, yeah.
00:53:05.983 -->
00:53:06.313Yeah.
00:53:06.793 -->
00:53:08.668No, I love the way you frame that too.
00:53:09.793 -->
00:53:10.452All right.
00:53:10.512 -->
00:53:18.103Um, focus on short-term sales targets or long-term client loyalty and advocacy.
00:53:18.583 -->
00:53:28.572Oh long-term client loyalty and advocacy because that will lead to more opportunity and they will introduce you into new prospective clients,
00:53:28.577 -->
00:53:28.818you go.
00:53:28.818 -->
00:53:28.992There you go.
00:53:30.248 -->
00:53:30.538Okay.
00:53:30.643 -->
00:53:36.913Compete primarily on price or focus on value added solutions and differentiation
00:53:37.512 -->
00:53:44.472value added solutions and differentiation because every price conversation is actually a value conversation.
00:53:44.472 -->
00:53:47.592We just haven't figured out what that value is yet.
00:53:48.132 -->
00:53:48.583Yep.
00:53:48.672 -->
00:53:49.003Yep.
00:53:49.007 -->
00:53:49.182All right.
00:53:49.182 -->
00:53:49.963We got three more.
00:53:50.293 -->
00:53:50.682Alright.
00:53:51.072 -->
00:53:57.672Prioritize individual sales performance or promote collaborative metrics tracking.
00:53:58.043 -->
00:53:58.262Oh.
00:54:01.588 -->
00:54:02.262I can't say both.
00:54:02.262 -->
00:54:02.922Now that we gave you
00:54:02.952 -->
00:54:03.702I know, right?
00:54:03.708 -->
00:54:04.777I already used my Mulligan.
00:54:04.958 -->
00:54:05.177Um.
00:54:06.132 -->
00:54:14.983In professional services, I'm gonna go with collaboration because most professional services firms do have a collaborative approach to sales.
00:54:15.373 -->
00:54:24.733In traditional selling organizations where you have quoted sales professionals, that's, they're automatically gonna be comped on individual performance.
00:54:24.822 -->
00:54:25.043Yep.
00:54:25.063 -->
00:54:26.623an entire guide on that topic.
00:54:26.742 -->
00:54:29.623Uh, so you, you took the hinge point of view on that as well.
00:54:30.036 -->
00:54:30.666All right.
00:54:30.666 -->
00:54:38.751Build an extensive network with softer ties or a smaller network of strong influencers.
00:54:39.996 -->
00:54:40.076Hmm.
00:54:42.228 -->
00:54:43.217I'm gonna go stronger.
00:54:43.217 -->
00:54:55.847Network with smaller network with strong influencers, especially as it relates to business development, because you can, um, I think you get more leverage out of that, but you can also add more value.
00:54:56.018 -->
00:54:56.438Mm-hmm.
00:54:57.123 -->
00:54:57.483Yep.
00:54:58.472 -->
00:54:59.523All right, last one.
00:54:59.612 -->
00:55:02.358Outreach over phone or email.
00:55:03.199 -->
00:55:11.268I'll tell you my tendency is outreach over email, which is probably what most people's tendency is.
00:55:11.958 -->
00:55:15.259Um, I would offer to not let your tendency become a trap.
00:55:16.387 -->
00:55:18.396If I can't pick two, that's what I'll offer.
00:55:20.998 -->
00:55:24.202I, I think everyone's gotten very reliant on email sometimes.
00:55:24.217 -->
00:55:26.842Uh, but I mean, but it's also challenging.
00:55:26.842 -->
00:55:28.282Sometimes we get people on the phone, right?
00:55:28.282 -->
00:55:33.592We got busy days and so forth, but boy does it make things easier if you can get somebody on the phone.
00:55:34.358 -->
00:55:34.867yeah.
00:55:34.898 -->
00:55:43.358Well, and back up to your first question where I didn't elaborate too much on written versus vocal communication, depending on where your strengths are.
00:55:43.717 -->
00:55:47.498A very well written, like, well-crafted anything.
00:55:48.315 -->
00:55:52.179can really open the door and then give you the follow up.
00:55:52.179 -->
00:55:56.601So where your tendencies are building your strengths becomes really important,
00:55:57.188 -->
00:56:00.458That was right on time for five minutes, so
00:56:01.007 -->
00:56:02.782I tried to, I tried to drag it over.
00:56:03.277 -->
00:56:03.788Yeah.
00:56:04.507 -->
00:56:05.858Joe kind of dragged us over the.
00:56:07.222 -->
00:56:07.974five minutes or less.
00:56:08.782 -->
00:56:10.913That was, that was awesome, Amy.
00:56:11.213 -->
00:56:15.983Well, Amy, thank you so much for joining us on, uh, spiraling Up.
00:56:15.983 -->
00:56:22.572We've had such a great time talking with you, learning from you, where can people learn more about you and, and get in touch with you?
00:56:23.635 -->
00:56:29.260Um, the first place is please feel free to reach out on LinkedIn, please, and please let me know that you heard me on this podcast.
00:56:29.471 -->
00:56:32.021And then secondly, uh, Amy Franco com.
00:56:33.130 -->
00:56:33.880Excellent.
00:56:34.360 -->
00:56:36.221Well, yeah, thank you so much.
00:56:36.221 -->
00:56:40.121If, you know, if you're out there and you've just heard all that great stuff from Amy, absolutely do that.
00:56:40.121 -->
00:56:41.291Go and connect with her.
00:56:41.621 -->
00:56:47.380Uh, you can also find MB Joe, myself, we are also quite active on LinkedIn.
00:56:47.762 -->
00:56:53.552and if you have any recommendations or suggestions for future episodes of Spiraling Up, then please send us a message.
00:56:53.552 -->
00:56:57.693You can always email us at podcast@hingemarketing.com.
00:56:57.992 -->
00:56:59.853There we can review your feedback as well.
00:57:00.063 -->
00:57:04.443And don't forget, if you're still watching this, you're on YouTube, hit that like button subscribe.
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00:57:10.695We're working hard to bring you great guests like Amy, great conversations on professional services, marketing and the like.
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00:57:13.632And so, do us a favor, leave us a review.
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00:57:15.882Like subscribe, all of that good stuff.
00:57:16.273 -->
00:57:19.302And yeah, you're not allowed to say that.
00:57:19.302 -->
00:57:20.922You're not allowed to tell people Fivestar.
00:57:21.282 -->
00:57:22.603Yeah, we're gonna have to cut that.
00:57:23.293 -->
00:57:23.742Just kidding.
00:57:24.492 -->
00:57:30.913Well, everybody, on behalf of, uh, our team here at Hinge and, and our new friend Amy, such a great conversation.
00:57:31.117 -->
00:57:33.757thank you for another great episode of Spiraling Up.
00:57:33.786 -->
00:57:34.597Take care everyone.
