038 | The Third Space: Why Work Gets Your Best and Home Gets What’s Left, with Dr Adam Fraser

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Hi, I'm Dr. Christy Goodwin, a neuro-performance scientist, speaker and executive coach who learned the hard way that chasing success can come at a cost.
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After burnout landed me in hospital, I made it my mission to help ambitious women who are done trading their health and happiness for high performance.
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On Spacious Success, I share science-backed strategies and real stories to help you flourish as a female at work and beyond so you can stop paying the success tax.
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What made me want to invite Dr. Adam onto this podcast, besides his wife Christine's persistence that he should be a guest, is that we have a shared conviction that performance should actually lift people up
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It shouldn't wear them down or be another thing that they're performing.
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And so much of our modern life has made life easy, and that can be, ironically, the thing that is depleting us and quietly powering us down.
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So welcome to Spacious Success, Dr. Adam Fraser.
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Hello.
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Can I tell you, for the last week I've been looking forward to this.
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This has been my bright spot.
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Good to see that face.
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Thank you.
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I don't see nearly enough.
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Oh, the provider of anticipatory dopamine.
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Thank you.
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I'm pleased to be that for you.
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Well, um...
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Adam, your work has been instrumental.
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I've got a couple of your dog-eared books here.
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You can probably see by the tinge if you're watching the video.
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They've been well-loved.
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They've been well-shared.
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But the book that really changed, really, I guess, forced me to question how I was operating was your book called The Third Space.
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Yeah.
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Your third space, I think, research really made your name.
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Would you agree that that's really implemented your leadership?
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It was kind of like, you know, the...
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the hit album that I'm trying to find a follow-up to.
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It's still the most, you know, like people still talk to me about that so much.
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And even I was in Coles the other day doing the shopping.
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This dude comes up and taps me on the shoulder and I'm kind of a bit grumpy.
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It's early.
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And I'm like, what?
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And he goes, are you the third space guy?
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And I'm like...
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Oh, yeah.
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He goes, oh, man, save me marriage.
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Thanks so much.
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Oh.
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Yeah.
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Oh, that's powerful.
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Yeah.
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Wow.
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Well, for those people who have perhaps never heard the term before, can you just give us a quick synopsis of what the third space is and how it helps high performers oscillate from one role into the next without combusting or capitulating?
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What is it in a nutshell?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well, like the third space is that transitional gap between like the first space is what we're doing now.
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So you and I talking.
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Yep.
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And the second space is what we're about to do.
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So after this, I have a briefing call with a client.
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And the third space is that transitional gap.
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And what kept showing up in our research, and this came from multiple conversations, like I was talking to doing some work with the military, and I kind of said to the soldiers, like, what's the hardest thing you do?
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And they went, oh, coming home is brutal.
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And I went, what do you mean?
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And they said, oh, I come home and I fight with the family for three weeks.
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And what they talked about is how hard it is to transition.
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And then, you know, I had a meeting with like an interaction with a CEO where he literally built a new entrance in the home because he came home one day from work.
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And he noticed like he just caught a glimpse of the kids as they ran away when they heard him come home.
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And he realized he came home and just kind of shouted orders at people and said,
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So there was this theme.
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And then even on a micro level, I found the really great leaders could reset after a meeting and they didn't carry the mood and mindset of what they've done into the next thing.
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So it was this ability to almost like reset or or have some sort of circuit breaker.
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And then with Deakin University, we did the research and we trial different
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strategies in that transition so whether it was you know going from work to home or or home to work or one meeting to another or even you think about us like stepping on stage um you know like you really have to get your head in the game and even you know I worked with surgeons talking about how they transition when they're on call like they're at a barbecue and then they're cracking someone's chest and
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Even one of them said, actually, where I use it the most is on non-surgical days where I go from one patient to the next.
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He has two rooms.
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So he finishes with the patient, walks into the next room.
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And he said, I read your book.
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And what I do is I actually pause and I hold the door handle.
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And I think to myself, if my mom was on the other side of that door door.
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Yeah, how would I want a physician to treat her?
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And he said, I just do this like five second little reset, but it changes how I show up.
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So the third space is that and how we apply it.
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I love that.
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And I love that with all of your work, but this in particular, it's grounded in really simple but science-backed micro strategies that we can all apply.
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Because, you know, any convoluted, complex three-hour routine or protocol just doesn't work for high performers and it's not sustainable.
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With a lot of the high-performing women that I work with, a lot of them will tell me,
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that they experience something.
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I don't know if you've ever heard of this term, Adam, but I shared it on Instagram and my DMs blew up.
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I talked about this concept of role ricochet.
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And so many high-performing women say they've got it nailed at work.
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At work, they're in control, they're leading teams, they're making decisions, they're holding authority.
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then they shut the lid on the laptop or they close down their desktop computer and they're thrust back into their role as mum, as wife.
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Yeah.
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And they're often trying to negotiate homework and sport pickups.
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And they often feel that they've got these two sometimes conflicting identities, but without any transition points in between.
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Yeah.
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And so I would love for you to share what are some really simple, practical things that women can do to create that third space on like a day-to-day cadence.
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Yeah, I mean, obviously, context is king here, and it depends on what you're doing and where you're transitioning and what your home environment's like.
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But really, what we found in our research is there's three key steps in a transition.
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So step number one is to reflect on what you've just done.
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But most of us will reflect in a way of where we look at what sucked of, Oh, what didn't I do today?
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And I didn't get back to that client.
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Oh my God, that meeting was a disaster.
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And we kind of have this really negative reflection.
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And what we tried to get people to do was just reflect on, okay, what went well?
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And this is not like wanky poly and a, uh,
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crap, like, okay, all right.
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Yeah, that didn't go exactly well, but at least I had a swing at it.
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Or, you know, I tried to have that conversation with that person.
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So what went well?
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What did I achieve today?
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And did I get better?
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Like, did I evolve as a leader?
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Was I more compassionate?
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Or, so we got people just to reflect on those.
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And then the second part is the rest phase, which is just where we come back to being present.
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Because, you know, like you talk about those high achieving women, they're just blurring through.
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They're running from one thing to another and they never really take that time to just recenter themselves.
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And it can be a couple of seconds.
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It could be a deep breath.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And then that reset phase is the last piece.
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So it's reflect, rest, reset.
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And the reset is, okay, what's my intention for this next thing?
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What do I want to achieve?
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You know, what's the outcome I'm after?
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You know, whether it's, hey, I want to go into that meeting and I'm going to talk to one of my staff and I want to be compassionate.
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I don't want to be judgmental.
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I've got to go in and have a hard conversation.
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So how do I not...
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You know, talk about them as a person, but talk about them as their behavior that I'm unhappy with.
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So what we found is that those three steps were crucial.
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Like, how do I leave behind what I've just done?
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Because too often, I mean, man, we carry the mood and mindset.
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Like, I mean, people listening to this, have you ever had a bad day brought it home with you?
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Or you ever had a bad meeting derails your day?
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Yeah.
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So it's like, how do I leave that behind?
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How do I compose myself?
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And then how do I reset myself for the next thing?
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So I...
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With our piece, what I transitioned into this today, you know, I was actually a couple of minutes late because I was so deep in this thinking about what do I want to do?
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What's the impact?
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How do I, like, Christy means a lot to me, so how do I make sure I give her listeners something that they can take away?
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And start to really think about, okay, her audience is busy women who are trying to achieve so many things,
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So, you know, even just that reset piece of what do I want to do?
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So does that kind of make sense?
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Absolutely.
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And again, I love a three-pronged approach.
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So that first part of reflecting, and I agree, we have a negativity bias.
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You know, what's that saying?
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Totally.
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Any sort of negative feedback or experience, we stick to it like, you know,
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Glue.
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Super glue and any of the positive things are like Teflon and they just slide off.
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So I love that forced moment where you are almost obliged to look for something good.
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I often say look for the shiny and also acknowledge the shabby, but try and counter that negativity bias.
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I love that you said that the rest can be even just something as simple as a breath.
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Yeah.
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I think many of us think that we need these really complicated, you know, protocols and practices to,
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A sign two to three times will reset your nervous system, closing your eyes, sitting in the car for an extra minute before you walk in and bring the dregs, the emotional dregs of the day into your household.
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You know, being more deliberate before you walk into that meeting room.
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Yeah.
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I love that.
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And that third part of the reset.
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Yeah.
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Can you tell us about any of the high-performing women you may have worked with?
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Any anecdotes, insights?
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What has worked?
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What do you see as sort of common denominators in the things that a lot of accomplished women are struggling with?
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Yes.
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And then from your perspective, what are some of the protocols and simple science-backed ways that can actually support them?
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Around that transition into the home?
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Well, around transitioning or around sustainable performance.
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Because I think...
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Okay, well, let's start with the transitioning piece so we kind of close that down.
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this is a concept you want to take and make it very personal.
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Like I had a single mom reach out to me.
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She'd seen me present and she said, oh, man, I just got to tell you what.
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She said, I sat in your presentation and I'm riddled with guilt.
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Guilt.
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And she's like, because I show up as the hurricane.
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And she said how it works is, you know, obviously I share custody with my husband, like my ex-husband.
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And so when I pick up the kids from childcare, it is two minutes down the road from work.
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And she said, I always burst in.
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I'm always late.
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And I'm the hurricane.
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And I look at my kid and I'm like, why don't you have your shoes on?
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Like, where's your bag?
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Yeah, we're late for piano.
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And I'm screaming at my kids.
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They start crying.
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She said, that is literally every day.
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And she said, all I did is called your office and said,
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can you send me a JPEG of that, like, reflect, rest, reset thing?
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And she said, I printed on a little card, put it on my dashboard, and as I drive to childcare, I do those three steps, and,
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And she said, it just changes how I show up.
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And, you know, I'm not perfect, but, like, that's what she did.
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You know, I had a woman come up to me and said, actually, she was really pissed.
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And she came up to me and she said, well, I don't have a third space because I just change jobs.
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And I'm like, I'm at work, and then I go home, and I'll cook dinner, and I clean the house and do the washing and all that.
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And she said, well, I can't have a third space.
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And first thing I said to her is clearly, like, you're resentful about how the other people in your home are treating you and rightly so.
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Like, it sounds like you're doing it all and that's a conversation you've got to have.
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And I said, look, what the third space is more about is, like, how do you show up for that environment?
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And are you going to go home, like, like,
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just angry, pissed off and have a really like an aggressive interaction?
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Or can you use that space to regulate yourself to have a more constructive conversation?
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And I said to her, look, the way my wife and I sort of split the mental load is, you know, one of the things I'm responsible for is food.
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So the planning.
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And that's the part I hate the most.
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So I do the planning, the shopping, the cooking, you know, like I take she doesn't think about food.
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I take care of food.
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So every night I go home and I cook dinner and I said to her, you know, like I could walk in and go far out.
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I've been like I've had this stressful day now to go to cook for these idiots.
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And here's another thing I've got to do.
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But what I do is I get my daughters involved.
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They're 16 and 13.
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And how I do that is, like, we've got a Sonos system in the kitchen.
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They choose the music, and we cook dinner together and do karaoke.
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And like, so we have this really fun interaction that, so what I do is prepare myself for, okay, well, as soon as I get in the door, I've got a job to do.
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And I'd rather not do it, but it's the reality.
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And how do I show up so I interact with my daughters in that really constructive way?
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And look, one of the things I really do with my daughters, who are teenagers and not pleasant, is...
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I'm just thinking I left this morning and, you know, you have an expectation about an interaction.
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Like I knocked on my 13-year-old's door to say she's having a sleepover tonight so I won't see her.
221
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And I was like, I wanted to tell her how much I love her and I was going to miss her.
222
00:15:21.676 --> 00:15:23.718
And I knock on the door and she's like, go away.
223
00:15:24.018 --> 00:15:24.858
What time was this?
224
00:15:24.898 --> 00:15:27.119
Because as we're recording this, it is school holidays.
225
00:15:27.179 --> 00:15:28.800
What time did you interrupt?
226
00:15:29.561 --> 00:15:32.883
Oh, she was well and truly awake because she's got a netball camp.
227
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But she's like, go away.
228
00:15:35.182 --> 00:15:36.223
I'm like, what?
229
00:15:36.984 --> 00:15:37.945
So anyway, I have this.
230
00:15:38.306 --> 00:15:45.595
But when I go home at the end of the day, the thing I think about is how many years do I have with them?
231
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Because it's been a freaking blur.
232
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Like it has gone so fast.
233
00:15:50.663 --> 00:15:56.388
And I just think I just don't want to be the guy that has that regret of I didn't use that time.
234
00:15:56.728 --> 00:16:00.851
So that reset thing for me is you're going to go in.
235
00:16:01.031 --> 00:16:02.272
They're probably going to be hideous.
236
00:16:02.532 --> 00:16:06.075
But like how do you respond to that in a constructive way?
237
00:16:06.696 --> 00:16:09.438
So, you know, I've seen women use this.
238
00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:18.952
in different ways, whether it is like, I've got to pick them up for childcare or I've got to go home and do some domestic activities.
239
00:16:19.092 --> 00:16:22.256
But yeah, that's what this concept's about.
240
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How do you show up
241
00:16:25.419 --> 00:16:31.301
Because when people see that presentation, the most common thing they say is work gets the best of me.
242
00:16:31.501 --> 00:16:31.881
Yes.
243
00:16:32.701 --> 00:16:36.622
And I walk through that door and I've got nothing left.
244
00:16:36.762 --> 00:16:40.263
Like the people that mean the most to me get the worst version.
245
00:16:40.583 --> 00:16:42.024
Yeah.
246
00:16:42.364 --> 00:16:46.445
And that's what this concept is about is how do we stop that from occurring?
247
00:16:47.053 --> 00:16:51.757
Yeah, when I posted that role ricocheted, one of the DMs I received from a woman.
248
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I love that language, by the way.
249
00:16:53.258 --> 00:16:54.359
Well, thank you.
250
00:16:54.779 --> 00:16:58.982
But it articulates, like it encapsulates what so many of us feel like.
251
00:16:59.002 --> 00:17:01.785
We're thrust, like that whiplash concept that...
252
00:17:02.425 --> 00:17:22.592
we go and especially if we're in a role where we've got people following you know our instructions we've got some sort of locus of control and then perhaps we are slammed into a home environment if we've got young kids or we've got adolescents that don't even want to listen to us let alone do homework or contribute to the family cooking or the dance-a-thon that you're going to have while you do the cooking
253
00:17:24.453 --> 00:17:28.675
And so it is that, yeah, forced transition.
254
00:17:28.715 --> 00:17:29.716
Well, it's not a transition.
255
00:17:29.736 --> 00:17:30.396
That's the problem.
256
00:17:30.456 --> 00:17:32.758
It's the absence of a transition.
257
00:17:33.518 --> 00:17:35.519
And I love that, again, you've provided.
258
00:17:35.539 --> 00:17:43.124
I think what really stuck for me in that explanation you just provided us is the why we need to do this.
259
00:17:43.364 --> 00:17:47.727
And I saw someone share something once, and I will admit I don't get this right all of the time.
260
00:17:48.447 --> 00:17:53.209
But it was a post on, I think it was on Facebook, and it was Desire, it was with all the emotive music.
261
00:17:53.269 --> 00:17:54.289
It was late at night.
262
00:17:54.650 --> 00:17:57.231
You know, I read it and I'm like, oh, wow, that really stuck.
263
00:17:57.951 --> 00:18:04.554
And it was a quote about when you walk into your home, do your children's faces light up?
264
00:18:04.734 --> 00:18:06.835
Or are they the kids that are hiding from the hurricane?
265
00:18:06.975 --> 00:18:10.956
Are they the kids that are hiding because dad's coming home in a terrible mood?
266
00:18:11.016 --> 00:18:11.897
So I love that.
267
00:18:12.637 --> 00:18:17.419
What I really loved what you said is that reminder that our most important human currencies –
268
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our time, our energy and our attention.
269
00:18:22.269 --> 00:18:26.751
And I often think we're living and working in ways where we think that they are finite and they're not.
270
00:18:26.971 --> 00:18:32.854
And just remembering, you know, I often talk about how we have 4,000 Sundays in our lifetime if we're lucky.
271
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You know, I often say good health is a privilege.
272
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It's never a promise.
273
00:18:37.256 --> 00:18:45.560
I've calculated roughly on average life expectancy, if I hit the jackpot with my health, that I have about 1,780 Sundays left in my life.
274
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I know, do not tell me that.
275
00:18:48.541 --> 00:18:49.982
I think you're younger than me.
276
00:18:50.342 --> 00:18:56.685
I know, and I don't wanna live those as a brittle, like grumpy hurricane version.
277
00:18:56.705 --> 00:19:01.247
So I think, you know, anchoring into your, why do you need to have these transition points?
278
00:19:01.907 --> 00:19:09.293
Because I think for a lot of women, especially if you're a mother, there's still, I think, a really dominant narrative about motherhood being a martyr.
279
00:19:10.033 --> 00:19:10.814
Oh, totally.
280
00:19:10.834 --> 00:19:14.417
You know, if you're not burnt out and busy, you're not being a good enough mum.
281
00:19:15.838 --> 00:19:19.240
I think the superwoman myth needs to be completely dismantled.
282
00:19:19.320 --> 00:19:23.403
We do women a disservice when we revere them, saying that they're superwoman.
283
00:19:24.004 --> 00:19:28.908
So I think giving yourself that gift of time so that you can show up
284
00:19:29.628 --> 00:19:33.894
as the best version and remembering that some days your 60% is your 100%.
285
00:19:34.374 --> 00:19:43.526
So it may not be the shiniest, best, you know, cupcake bearing mum when you come to pick up, but that 60% is enough for today.
286
00:19:43.546 --> 00:19:44.507
Yeah.
287
00:19:44.647 --> 00:19:45.148
That's important.
288
00:19:45.168 --> 00:19:45.769
And if anyone's...
289
00:19:46.129 --> 00:19:57.516
listening to this, who's part of a couple, like go home and have this conversation and not go home and go, right, I listen to this thing and shit's about to change.
290
00:19:57.797 --> 00:20:00.478
Like it's not, you know, that aggressive.
291
00:20:00.558 --> 00:20:04.421
It's this guy talked about this thing and it made me think.
292
00:20:05.241 --> 00:20:11.305
And how do we do it for us and our content?
293
00:20:11.966 --> 00:20:13.727
Because when my kids were young, I,
294
00:20:15.569 --> 00:20:23.078
my third space would be I'd grab my dog and put the two kids in the pram and we'd go for a walk to the dog park.
295
00:20:23.438 --> 00:20:23.578
Yep.
296
00:20:23.739 --> 00:20:28.704
And Chris would get an hour to herself, right?
297
00:20:29.005 --> 00:20:31.407
And that was just where she would decompress.
298
00:20:31.548 --> 00:20:31.688
Yeah.
299
00:20:31.728 --> 00:20:33.590
I think she just drank alcohol on the leg.
300
00:20:35.487 --> 00:20:40.250
But so the first thing I would do is come home and take the kids away.
301
00:20:40.270 --> 00:20:42.031
Right.
302
00:20:42.211 --> 00:20:44.912
And that was good for me because I'm outdoors.
303
00:20:45.833 --> 00:20:46.954
The dog gets a walk.
304
00:20:47.254 --> 00:20:48.154
We go to the park.
305
00:20:48.234 --> 00:20:49.315
The kids run around.
306
00:20:49.415 --> 00:20:50.756
And then I would walk back.
307
00:20:50.816 --> 00:20:53.237
And she just needed that time to decompress.
308
00:20:53.297 --> 00:20:55.298
Now, it depends on your context.
309
00:20:55.378 --> 00:21:00.982
But, you know, I've got some women I talk to who go, I just sit on the back deck and I have a glass of wine.
310
00:21:01.302 --> 00:21:01.482
Yep.
311
00:21:02.162 --> 00:21:14.770
And or, you know, I talk to a friend or it's about finding what can I do for that decompression just to reset my like, what do I need?
312
00:21:14.850 --> 00:21:15.990
Yes.
313
00:21:16.711 --> 00:21:19.633
So, yeah, very much have that couple conversation.
314
00:21:21.345 --> 00:21:27.107
Um, and, and also have the conversation about, like, I was working with school principal.
315
00:21:27.447 --> 00:21:33.470
She had teenage kids and she went home after the workshop and said, all right, how would you describe?
316
00:21:33.570 --> 00:21:34.210
I come home.
317
00:21:34.970 --> 00:21:36.751
And they went, Oh, grumpy.
318
00:21:36.811 --> 00:21:39.672
And, you know, you'd nag us and you do this and you do that.
319
00:21:39.772 --> 00:21:42.353
And she said, well, how would you like me to come home?
320
00:21:43.262 --> 00:21:46.563
And the kids were like, oh, you know, describe this sort of euphoria.
321
00:21:47.143 --> 00:21:51.684
And she said, well, for that to happen, you need to do this and this.
322
00:21:52.744 --> 00:21:59.006
And she had a really hard conversation with the whole family of like, I come home and you expect me to do everything.
323
00:21:59.926 --> 00:22:02.526
And she's like, that's why I'm pissed off.
324
00:22:02.806 --> 00:22:03.006
Yeah.
325
00:22:03.827 --> 00:22:07.507
And they had this conversation, put some boundaries in place.
326
00:22:07.587 --> 00:22:09.908
And, you know, she talked about,
327
00:22:14.808 --> 00:22:23.992
So have you worked with any women who are, for a lot of the women I work with, they're on the precipice of often exhaustion, if not burnout.
328
00:22:25.253 --> 00:22:26.233
They're overloaded.
329
00:22:27.574 --> 00:22:30.796
They're feeling exhausted, chronically stressed.
330
00:22:31.736 --> 00:22:41.303
And we have, and we've got a growing body of research that's corroborating this, a really pronounced gender wellbeing gap with concerning more women than men experiencing stress and burnout.
331
00:22:42.404 --> 00:22:45.447
Have you seen this in any of the work or data that you've looked at?
332
00:22:45.807 --> 00:22:48.028
And what have you found that works for women?
333
00:22:48.048 --> 00:22:49.770
Because I don't want us to marinate in the problem.
334
00:22:50.290 --> 00:22:50.670
Yeah, yeah.
335
00:22:50.771 --> 00:22:52.612
Any wins, case studies, anecdotes?
336
00:22:53.513 --> 00:22:54.053
Yeah, okay.
337
00:22:54.273 --> 00:22:54.553
Wow.
338
00:22:55.334 --> 00:22:57.856
I'm just so mindful of mansplaining women.
339
00:23:01.433 --> 00:23:26.580
to women how they but but literally this is my job and and i do research in this area yep all right okay so if i was to let me get my head around this for a second i think number one we have to like one of the things i've learned as a man working in this area is clearly like i i bring fresh eyes like i look at it from a different perspective um
340
00:23:27.080 --> 00:23:37.503
And I think what every woman has to recognize is the fact that we've done a really good job on you guys in terms of we have screwed you over.
341
00:23:39.344 --> 00:23:52.267
And the way we've screwed you over is just how deep and embedded that guilt around doing anything for yourself is.
342
00:23:52.768 --> 00:23:53.168
Oh, wow.
343
00:23:53.708 --> 00:23:53.988
Yep.
344
00:23:54.553 --> 00:24:22.481
Like it's, as a guy looking upon this landscape from a researcher, like we have screwed you over big time because that, the guilt attached to doing anything or not being the central hub of everything or not pleasing everyone, I'm constantly surprised at how deep and entrenched that is.
345
00:24:23.561 --> 00:24:24.141
Oh, actually...
346
00:24:24.666 --> 00:24:27.708
Here is, I've never told this story before, but he, right.
347
00:24:28.008 --> 00:24:34.032
So I'm doing a conference in the Gold Coast and it's to a predominantly female audience.
348
00:24:34.152 --> 00:24:36.113
And this woman comes up to me afterwards.
349
00:24:36.733 --> 00:24:38.795
She was wearing a hijab.
350
00:24:38.815 --> 00:24:38.895
Yep.
351
00:24:39.635 --> 00:24:41.776
Is that the right way to say it?
352
00:24:41.816 --> 00:24:42.597
Hijab.
353
00:24:42.637 --> 00:24:47.900
So she's got a headdress on and she's Muslim.
354
00:24:48.701 --> 00:24:49.961
Anyway, we're having a chat.
355
00:24:50.082 --> 00:24:52.263
She's so lovely, so charming.
356
00:24:52.283 --> 00:24:52.383
Yeah.
357
00:24:53.538 --> 00:24:56.142
And I said to her, how long have you been in Australia for?
358
00:24:56.783 --> 00:25:02.512
And she said, oh, well, after I got shot in the war, they fast-tracked my visa.
359
00:25:02.712 --> 00:25:04.114
And I was like, what?
360
00:25:04.134 --> 00:25:04.315
Yeah.
361
00:25:05.162 --> 00:25:08.123
And she said, oh, yeah, I got shot in Lebanon.
362
00:25:08.343 --> 00:25:12.385
And I said, like, I've never met anyone who's been shot.
363
00:25:12.785 --> 00:25:14.906
Can I ask you, what does it feel like to be shot?
364
00:25:14.946 --> 00:25:23.370
And she said, well, I was running away and I thought someone had thrown a really big rock at me and it hit me in the side and knocked me to the ground.
365
00:25:24.467 --> 00:25:29.488
And she said, like, you just don't understand the force at which a bullet hits you.
366
00:25:29.568 --> 00:25:31.869
And then she said something that I'd never thought of.
367
00:25:32.209 --> 00:25:36.711
And she goes, you've got to understand a bullet is red hot, like it burns.
368
00:25:38.311 --> 00:25:40.132
And so she's walking me through this thing.
369
00:25:40.152 --> 00:25:41.692
And then she told me about how...
370
00:25:42.747 --> 00:25:46.508
her one-year-old daughter was killed in the war.
371
00:25:47.369 --> 00:25:49.109
And she's telling me this story.
372
00:25:49.229 --> 00:25:52.150
Like, I've got, like, tears streaming down my face.
373
00:25:52.170 --> 00:25:52.971
She's crying.
374
00:25:53.631 --> 00:25:57.152
And she was talking about how she had to live in a bunker for seven years.
375
00:25:57.232 --> 00:25:58.713
And she showed me a photo of it.
376
00:25:58.793 --> 00:26:01.574
And it's, like, the size of this, my office.
377
00:26:02.294 --> 00:26:04.475
And she's, like, eight of us lived in this bunker.
378
00:26:04.515 --> 00:26:06.475
And, you know, she came to Australia.
379
00:26:06.515 --> 00:26:08.136
She said, I've built this beautiful life.
380
00:26:08.196 --> 00:26:11.097
And anyway, she was talking about...
381
00:26:11.717 --> 00:26:31.790
her life and I said well you know the thing I'm hearing from you is you never do anything for you and I said you got to do something for me and instantly the discomfort on her face was so she's like oh no no no I couldn't do that no you know what will my husband say and my mother-in-law and
382
00:26:32.530 --> 00:26:35.273
And I'm like, you're freaking superwoman.
383
00:26:35.413 --> 00:26:37.435
Like, you have survived being shot.
384
00:26:37.695 --> 00:26:39.136
You've survived multiple wars.
385
00:26:39.156 --> 00:26:42.600
You lived in a hole in the ground for seven years.
386
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:45.222
You lost a one-year-old daughter and you're still functional.
387
00:26:45.723 --> 00:26:52.289
Like, you are superwoman, but I ask you to do something for yourself and it freaks you out.
388
00:26:52.509 --> 00:26:55.852
Like, that's how good a job we've done on you guys.
389
00:26:57.084 --> 00:27:03.331
And that a woman who can go through all of that, but the thought of self-care, that's what pushes her over.
390
00:27:04.272 --> 00:27:09.658
Do you think, this is a big question to ask and you don't necessarily have to give me a definitive answer.
391
00:27:10.359 --> 00:27:13.783
Do you think that's social conditioning and norms?
392
00:27:13.803 --> 00:27:15.665
Do you think women are perpetuating that?
393
00:27:16.506 --> 00:27:20.149
That, because I think there's a lot of, as I said before, that mother martyrdom mode.
394
00:27:21.369 --> 00:27:31.957
There's a lot of women, you know, I shared something in my DMs on LinkedIn blew up this time around how women are secretly hoping to get injured or ill just for a couple of days of rest.
395
00:27:32.437 --> 00:27:32.637
Yeah.
396
00:27:32.657 --> 00:27:39.061
Because the thought of actually being proactive and taking a short break or investing in some self-care.
397
00:27:40.883 --> 00:27:45.665
feels like such a foreign concept that we have to either wait until we've earned it.
398
00:27:45.785 --> 00:27:51.709
And a legitimate socially acceptable way for a woman to rest is if she's injured or she's really ill. Yeah.
399
00:27:51.749 --> 00:28:03.075
I saw a friend of mine who's a psychologist and she was visiting a woman in hospital who'd had a mental breakdown and she was basically in a psych ward and she was going to be in there for two weeks.
400
00:28:03.716 --> 00:28:07.057
And she said, I looked at this woman and thought, oh, I'm so jealous.
401
00:28:07.398 --> 00:28:07.658
Yes.
402
00:28:07.678 --> 00:28:07.758
Yes.
403
00:28:08.958 --> 00:28:09.178
No.
404
00:28:09.479 --> 00:28:15.301
And this, do you know what, the number of high performing women who secretly will whisper that to me in a coaching call.
405
00:28:15.781 --> 00:28:23.064
That's why I shared the post and what I called out is just because something is common because women are secretly harboring these desires.
406
00:28:23.084 --> 00:28:28.167
You know, I had a woman once say to me, I was hoping just for a mild fender bender on the way to work.
407
00:28:28.207 --> 00:28:30.928
It had just put me out of action for a couple of days in hospital.
408
00:28:32.068 --> 00:28:39.553
But when we are fantasizing and romanticizing an illness or an injury to simply rest, I think we've got a problem.
409
00:28:39.573 --> 00:28:42.155
And I say often something can be really common.
410
00:28:42.655 --> 00:28:43.956
It doesn't mean that it's normal.
411
00:28:44.216 --> 00:28:54.643
And the sheer fact that women are harboring these desires and whispering it to their friends or saying it to themselves, I think speaks volumes, as you said, about how entrenched people.
412
00:28:55.365 --> 00:28:56.506
how conditioned we are.
413
00:28:57.707 --> 00:29:03.151
I think it can circle back to our good girl training, our childhood and adolescence.
414
00:29:04.532 --> 00:29:13.319
I wonder if social media is to play, you know, that perpetuation of that busy woman, the woman that struggles with boundaries.
415
00:29:13.499 --> 00:29:14.940
I just, I'm curious.
416
00:29:15.020 --> 00:29:15.921
I don't have an answer.
417
00:29:16.901 --> 00:29:17.622
Yeah, look, I...
418
00:29:19.847 --> 00:29:21.908
Look, I see this in my work.
419
00:29:21.948 --> 00:29:23.449
I see this in my personal life.
420
00:29:23.509 --> 00:29:24.630
I see this in my marriage.
421
00:29:24.950 --> 00:29:26.651
Like I married an Italian woman.
422
00:29:28.271 --> 00:29:29.792
So she's Italian Catholic.
423
00:29:29.832 --> 00:29:31.573
So she has a black belt in guilt.
424
00:29:32.033 --> 00:29:35.035
And her dad was a university professor.
425
00:29:36.015 --> 00:29:44.220
And he really drilled into her that if you're not contributing, if you're not working, then you're, you know, you're not worthwhile.
426
00:29:45.092 --> 00:29:48.956
So I've had to see her manage that.
427
00:29:49.596 --> 00:29:58.264
And there's so many things that I just, and also friends that are married will say, you know, like my wife keeps saying yes to this.
428
00:29:58.304 --> 00:30:01.147
And if that was me, I'd just go, screw you.
429
00:30:01.227 --> 00:30:02.048
I'm not doing that.
430
00:30:02.928 --> 00:30:04.190
So I, yeah, I,
431
00:30:05.757 --> 00:30:10.221
I think understanding how deep that goes is a critical piece.
432
00:30:10.261 --> 00:30:15.805
I think, look, one of the other things too, and this has come out of our research on burnout.
433
00:30:15.845 --> 00:30:20.709
So we've done a lot of work on burnout, but we've also looked at it from a female perspective.
434
00:30:21.509 --> 00:30:33.219
And what we've found is that one of the things that stops women from practicing self-care or doing these activities is they're waiting for that guilt to go away.
435
00:30:34.069 --> 00:30:40.252
So they're kind of like, well, when that stops making me feel uncomfortable, then I'll do it.
436
00:30:40.653 --> 00:30:44.255
And what we found is that discomfort doesn't go away.
437
00:30:44.995 --> 00:30:48.297
It does diminish with action.
438
00:30:48.317 --> 00:30:55.721
But like most of the women that were really good at self-care were kind of in their late 50s or in their 60s.
439
00:30:55.741 --> 00:30:56.081
And...
440
00:30:58.268 --> 00:31:00.929
we said to them, do you still feel guilty about doing that?
441
00:31:00.950 --> 00:31:02.350
And they said every single day.
442
00:31:03.151 --> 00:31:06.613
And we're like, well, how do you get over the guilt?
443
00:31:06.813 --> 00:31:09.054
And they were like, because screw you, that's how.
444
00:31:10.275 --> 00:31:27.064
Yeah, they get to a realisation where... You know what, I think this is a Christie hypothesis, but if you're suggesting they're in their 50s and 60s, biologically most of those women would have gone through, they would have completed perimenopause and completed menopause.
445
00:31:27.724 --> 00:31:31.587
And we know that declining level, fluctuating and then declining levels of estrogen.
446
00:31:31.607 --> 00:31:36.591
Estrogen is often colloquially referred to as our hormone of servitude and accommodation.
447
00:31:37.171 --> 00:31:45.918
And when we do not have those high levels of estrogen as we don't have in our 50s and 60s, it's why women often say, I give less Fs.
448
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:49.000
And I hope we don't have to wait.
449
00:31:49.241 --> 00:31:56.907
I challenge that because we've got a generation of really incredible, amazing women who are burning themselves out.
450
00:31:57.587 --> 00:32:13.073
Yeah, I think this is why I love having conversations with you because I've never when we looked at that, we didn't think about the physiological side of things.
451
00:32:13.133 --> 00:32:15.294
We focus on the psychological.
452
00:32:15.354 --> 00:32:17.995
And when we said, OK, why are you doing it?
453
00:32:18.355 --> 00:32:18.635
Yeah.
454
00:32:19.375 --> 00:32:20.916
Each of them said the same thing.
455
00:32:21.962 --> 00:32:28.911
And that was what I've realized is if I keep waiting for the guilt to go, I'm never going to do it.
456
00:32:29.772 --> 00:32:38.865
So what it was was this capacity to sit with the discomfort of guilt, but still do the behavior.
457
00:32:39.873 --> 00:32:41.274
Oh, that's so powerful.
458
00:32:41.775 --> 00:32:43.416
Yeah, but it's freaking hard.
459
00:32:43.916 --> 00:32:54.103
It is, and I think saying that, but for women who are listening, acknowledging and knowing there's no penultimate moment where that guilt will disappear, it's going to simmer in the background.
460
00:32:54.784 --> 00:32:59.367
Let it simmer, but also know that you're worthy of having a break.
461
00:32:59.447 --> 00:33:00.868
You are worthy of recovering.
462
00:33:00.908 --> 00:33:01.969
You are worthy of rest.
463
00:33:02.849 --> 00:33:03.930
There was some interesting research.
464
00:33:03.950 --> 00:33:04.930
I don't know if you've seen it, Adam.
465
00:33:04.970 --> 00:33:06.151
It only came out recently.
466
00:33:06.171 --> 00:33:08.252
And this was with males and females.
467
00:33:08.312 --> 00:33:10.553
And they talked about this doer identity.
468
00:33:10.673 --> 00:33:11.393
Have you seen this?
469
00:33:12.154 --> 00:33:15.555
And how the doer identities, its genesis is in childhood.
470
00:33:16.076 --> 00:33:19.898
And often kids who are rewarded, praised, acknowledged.
471
00:33:20.538 --> 00:33:22.639
It was like that good girl thing.
472
00:33:22.879 --> 00:33:25.760
Yes, but this was across both males and females.
473
00:33:26.380 --> 00:33:33.283
But ironically, that reward, praise, recognition that drove them to always be productive.
474
00:33:33.323 --> 00:33:39.125
And that's why I think a lot of high performers, irrespective of their gender, often find rest so challenging.
475
00:33:39.165 --> 00:33:40.726
It's that whole recovery paradox.
476
00:33:40.746 --> 00:33:44.067
The people that need the rest the most are often the least likely to take it.
477
00:33:44.907 --> 00:33:49.531
is because so much of our identity, particularly in modern life, is attached to doing.
478
00:33:50.092 --> 00:33:54.456
You know, performance metrics, productivity is your marker of success.
479
00:33:57.358 --> 00:33:58.279
Yeah.
480
00:33:58.339 --> 00:34:00.701
We have to unpack that for our next generation.
481
00:34:00.881 --> 00:34:02.743
Like your worth is not tied to your output.
482
00:34:04.652 --> 00:34:05.212
Oh, God.
483
00:34:05.933 --> 00:34:06.353
Oh, man.
484
00:34:06.573 --> 00:34:08.394
We could go in so many different directions.
485
00:34:09.195 --> 00:34:10.556
Look, actually, I've just had this thought.
486
00:34:10.596 --> 00:34:25.965
So we did a research study where we looked at the burnout rates in school principals, so 1,200 of them, so big sample size, and we compared burnout levels of men and women in the same job.
487
00:34:26.765 --> 00:34:28.667
Who do you think had higher levels of burnout?
488
00:34:30.268 --> 00:34:32.529
Well, I would say females, but...
489
00:34:34.417 --> 00:34:35.198
Exactly the same.
490
00:34:36.238 --> 00:34:37.879
There was no statistical difference.
491
00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:45.404
Now, what we looked at is the reason is that men are awesome at doing things for themselves.
492
00:34:46.025 --> 00:34:52.929
So when I say to groups, you should take a day of no responsibility.
493
00:34:53.049 --> 00:34:56.291
You should take a day where you remove agenda and productivity.
494
00:34:56.631 --> 00:34:59.173
You should do something for yourself that makes you feel good.
495
00:34:59.293 --> 00:35:02.135
Men go, far out, best idea ever, done.
496
00:35:04.339 --> 00:35:16.768
What they suck at, though, is they are terrible at talking about what they're going through and reaching out for help and talking to their friends about it or going to see a counsellor.
497
00:35:16.988 --> 00:35:18.930
Like men have that whole... Yeah.
498
00:35:19.230 --> 00:35:21.031
Like we've done a job on women.
499
00:35:21.091 --> 00:35:24.714
We've also done a good job on men, which is don't be weak.
500
00:35:25.155 --> 00:35:25.615
Yeah.
501
00:35:25.655 --> 00:35:26.916
Don't talk about your feelings.
502
00:35:26.996 --> 00:35:29.037
And I've lost two mates to suicide, so...
503
00:35:30.478 --> 00:35:34.821
This is very deep and very, very personal for me.
504
00:35:36.483 --> 00:35:43.928
So women are great at connection and having people around them to support them and going to get help.
505
00:35:44.569 --> 00:35:47.591
But they're terrible on the self-care.
506
00:35:47.711 --> 00:35:49.072
I will do things for myself.
507
00:35:49.473 --> 00:35:53.736
So what we found in our research is those two things kind of balance each other out.
508
00:35:54.941 --> 00:36:09.410
And it's about, you know, how do we start, particularly, you know, with the audience you have, how do these high-performing women have that capacity to, well, I am going to take that time for myself.
509
00:36:09.490 --> 00:36:14.413
Or I'm going to say no to that kid of, no, I'm not doing that for you because I'm doing something for me.
510
00:36:14.634 --> 00:36:17.936
Or, you know, to that family member or to that friend.
511
00:36:18.496 --> 00:36:21.298
So, yeah, that's...
512
00:36:23.743 --> 00:36:25.583
That's what our data shows.
513
00:36:27.284 --> 00:36:28.064
That's fascinating.
514
00:36:28.424 --> 00:36:31.185
Look, there's so many threads that I could pull on from that.
515
00:36:32.545 --> 00:36:46.609
In terms of what I shared some of your work a couple of years ago in my book where you talked about, because often we think that recovery has to be these big macro breaks, you know, big annual leave.
516
00:36:47.209 --> 00:36:48.650
That's the only way I'm going to recover.
517
00:36:48.750 --> 00:36:51.371
I need two weeks off and that's my recovery.
518
00:36:51.931 --> 00:36:59.274
When I think both you and I know that the research tells us that we don't need big, I call them grande breaks, a bit like the big grande coffees.
519
00:36:59.894 --> 00:37:02.975
It's those little piccolo breaks, you know, small but mighty.
520
00:37:02.995 --> 00:37:04.356
They pack a mean punch.
521
00:37:05.936 --> 00:37:14.360
What does your research tell us in terms of the types of recovery that does tackle, beat, defer burnout?
522
00:37:15.556 --> 00:37:19.078
Yeah, I mean, this goes back to the mid-90s.
523
00:37:19.419 --> 00:37:22.841
Like, I started doing this work on recovery and burnout.
524
00:37:24.102 --> 00:37:30.126
I did a stint at the Institute of Sport, and believe it or not, one of the biggest challenges for athletes is burnout.
525
00:37:30.906 --> 00:37:31.207
So...
526
00:37:32.442 --> 00:37:37.803
And that's because the balance between overtraining and undertraining is so fine.
527
00:37:37.903 --> 00:37:41.484
And if you overtrain an athlete, it compromises their immune system.
528
00:37:41.544 --> 00:37:42.304
They get sick.
529
00:37:43.244 --> 00:37:48.545
So what we would do is, and this is the mid-90s, so we're a bit prehistoric.
530
00:37:48.645 --> 00:37:53.126
We just used to, like, train them so hard, like so hard.
531
00:37:53.986 --> 00:37:57.367
And when they started to fall apart, then we'd bring in recovery, right?
532
00:37:59.960 --> 00:38:01.661
And kind of back off their training.
533
00:38:02.242 --> 00:38:11.430
But, you know, one of the head scientists down there, a guy who was in charge of the physiology lab, just went, kind of we take two steps forward, then we take a step back.
534
00:38:11.470 --> 00:38:13.031
Like, there's got to be a better way.
535
00:38:13.872 --> 00:38:17.435
And it sounds ridiculous by today's standard.
536
00:38:18.115 --> 00:38:20.878
What we discovered is the key to preventing burnout is.
537
00:38:21.622 --> 00:38:26.805
was short, regular, consistent bursts of recovery.
538
00:38:27.725 --> 00:38:32.808
So how our attitude changes, recovery is something you do when you fall apart.
539
00:38:33.768 --> 00:38:36.369
It became, well, recovery is part of training.
540
00:38:37.310 --> 00:38:50.777
And so what we started to do was embed these bursts, these micro, you often refer to them as micro recovery, but those short, regular, consistent bursts every day, every week, every month,
541
00:38:51.865 --> 00:38:55.971
And what we saw is not only did burnout drop, but performance went up.
542
00:38:56.512 --> 00:39:01.258
And we found the same thing with our research in corporate or in business.
543
00:39:02.651 --> 00:39:03.211
Same deal.
544
00:39:03.231 --> 00:39:09.635
Like, as you talked about, when we interviewed people who were burnt out, we said, okay, you recognize you're burnt out.
545
00:39:09.775 --> 00:39:10.676
What are you going to do?
546
00:39:11.316 --> 00:39:15.438
And the only answer was, oh, man, I've got a holiday in three months.
547
00:39:15.518 --> 00:39:16.999
I'm just going to flog myself.
548
00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:21.422
And then I'm going to go to Bali for two weeks and that'll fix it.
549
00:39:21.942 --> 00:39:26.965
But what we know, it's either Queensland University or QUT University.
550
00:39:27.525 --> 00:39:30.386
have been doing this cool research on holidays.
551
00:39:30.426 --> 00:39:34.247
And what they show is the benefits of a holiday disappear within three weeks.
552
00:39:34.927 --> 00:39:45.069
So you're back to where you were three weeks before, like after three weeks of returning back to work, you're back to how you felt before the holiday.
553
00:39:45.230 --> 00:39:46.450
Yeah.
554
00:39:46.470 --> 00:39:48.290
So, yeah, sure, have your holiday.
555
00:39:48.310 --> 00:39:49.531
You definitely need that.
556
00:39:49.571 --> 00:39:50.711
You want to do that.
557
00:39:50.991 --> 00:39:54.452
But also insert these micro moments of recovery.
558
00:39:54.732 --> 00:39:54.912
Yeah.
559
00:39:56.146 --> 00:39:57.767
Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant advice.
560
00:39:58.968 --> 00:40:13.255
Now, your other book that I really like, Strife, Equally Well Loved, I really like this idea that you make the case that chasing happiness is the wrong target, that meaning comes from the struggle itself.
561
00:40:13.936 --> 00:40:19.459
And I think we live in a modern hedonistic world where we...
562
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:21.901
avoid challenge.
563
00:40:21.921 --> 00:40:24.963
You know, we avoid stress.
564
00:40:24.983 --> 00:40:27.364
Stress we see as something really negative.
565
00:40:29.146 --> 00:40:33.868
We sometimes think that if something's hard, we must be failing at it or we need to avoid it.
566
00:40:35.710 --> 00:40:37.951
Have we pathologised difficulty?
567
00:40:39.552 --> 00:40:41.593
Tell us a bit about the book Strive.
568
00:40:42.054 --> 00:40:43.735
Why do we need effort?
569
00:40:44.455 --> 00:40:47.157
Why do we need to choose challenge over comfort in our modern lives?
570
00:40:47.177 --> 00:40:47.457
Yeah.
571
00:40:48.417 --> 00:40:48.838
Yeah.
572
00:40:49.419 --> 00:40:56.636
Look, how Strive came about is we were doing a very large research project with Deakin University, and we were looking at performance.
573
00:40:56.656 --> 00:40:57.217
Yeah.
574
00:40:57.603 --> 00:41:03.205
And like, you know, that whenever we do research, we do a mixed method model.
575
00:41:03.285 --> 00:41:07.467
So we might survey people, but we also get people to do diary studies.
576
00:41:07.527 --> 00:41:09.568
We get people to do interviews.
577
00:41:10.008 --> 00:41:13.029
You know, we try to go really deep with our research.
578
00:41:13.089 --> 00:41:20.192
And what kept coming up is we were looking at things that cause growth and skill building and competence.
579
00:41:21.454 --> 00:41:30.721
And typically when you think about like a flow state, you know, you're super engaged, like you want to do it.
580
00:41:30.841 --> 00:41:32.142
It's very difficult.
581
00:41:32.382 --> 00:41:34.484
It requires lots of skill, time.
582
00:41:35.164 --> 00:41:41.049
Time disappears, but there's also a level of enjoyment in that, like where you're in the zone.
583
00:41:41.189 --> 00:41:45.912
And you would get this in presenting where you're just like, I crushed today.
584
00:41:45.932 --> 00:41:46.092
Yep.
585
00:41:48.095 --> 00:41:55.607
So what we found is people said, yeah, flow's awesome, but the stuff that really makes me grow
586
00:41:56.680 --> 00:42:05.547
requires high level of skill, is difficult, but I don't actually want to do it and I'm not enjoying it.
587
00:42:06.347 --> 00:42:11.351
So they said the things that make me grow the most, I actually would rather not do it.
588
00:42:12.532 --> 00:42:18.216
So it's something that I have to force myself into and it's not enjoyable.
589
00:42:18.436 --> 00:42:21.958
It's like the hard conversation or it's the...
590
00:42:22.959 --> 00:42:26.482
you know, I'm doing a presentation and I haven't had time to really prep for it.
591
00:42:26.622 --> 00:42:36.489
Or it's, you know, I have to hold a boundary around my well-being or I have to push back on my leader and go, I'm just so overwhelmed.
592
00:42:36.629 --> 00:42:37.890
I can't do that right now.
593
00:42:38.010 --> 00:42:43.114
So what we discovered is it's the hard stuff that makes us grow and evolve.
594
00:42:43.795 --> 00:42:47.618
That's kind of the, but most people look at that and go, well, that's bad.
595
00:42:48.207 --> 00:42:59.717
you know, that, that, that, and particularly the happiness movement has done so much damage on this where, oh, there's a woman, Barbara, she wrote a paper called the,
596
00:43:00.677 --> 00:43:03.880
the negative side of positive psychology.
597
00:43:04.021 --> 00:43:04.561
Clever.
598
00:43:04.882 --> 00:43:07.264
She said this line, like she's so articulate.
599
00:43:08.966 --> 00:43:13.751
She said, the message we've given society is positive emotion is good and good for you.
600
00:43:14.071 --> 00:43:16.454
Negative emotion is bad and bad for you.
601
00:43:16.994 --> 00:43:21.960
But the problem with that is growth comes from the discomfort, and that's what strives about is growth.
602
00:43:24.825 --> 00:43:30.668
And I often ask people in my presentations to do an activity where they come up with the thing they're most proud of.
603
00:43:32.069 --> 00:43:34.910
And it's always, and they can't use their kids, by the way.
604
00:43:35.050 --> 00:43:36.491
That's one thing I tell them.
605
00:43:36.831 --> 00:43:43.414
It's like left a bad relationship, changed careers, ran a marathon, a marathon.
606
00:43:45.616 --> 00:43:50.282
you know, went for the promotion, even though I didn't really think I'd get it.
607
00:43:50.822 --> 00:43:55.488
What they talk about is the hard, like that's what builds their self-esteem and pride.
608
00:43:56.089 --> 00:43:59.874
So yeah, that's what Strives all about is our relationship with challenge and struggle.
609
00:44:00.387 --> 00:44:00.667
Yeah.
610
00:44:01.228 --> 00:44:14.563
And I think more than ever that we need to switch the language because I think we often shy away from physically challenging things these days.
611
00:44:14.583 --> 00:44:21.110
You know, we live because of technology, because of instant gratification, because of our modern easy lifestyles.
612
00:44:22.071 --> 00:44:30.116
I think we're becoming ill-equipped to deal with psychological stress because we're often less experienced and less adept at dealing with physical stress.
613
00:44:30.216 --> 00:44:37.180
So that's why I'm a huge proponent around, again, doing science-backed protocols, but things like...
614
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:41.663
Deliberate cold exposure, heat exposure, vigorous physical activity.
615
00:44:41.703 --> 00:44:44.266
I know that that's something you're passionate about too.
616
00:44:44.286 --> 00:44:44.386
Yeah.
617
00:44:45.607 --> 00:44:51.212
And I think we've really got to stop this vernacular that stress is bad and that hard things should be shied away from.
618
00:44:51.232 --> 00:44:58.298
There's some absolutely, I'm sure you've seen it, but some groundbreaking research in terms of they've done brain scans.
619
00:44:58.338 --> 00:45:01.081
Have you seen this around the anterior mid-cingulate cortex?
620
00:45:01.541 --> 00:45:01.801
Yes.
621
00:45:01.941 --> 00:45:04.782
So that being that willpower center of the brain.
622
00:45:04.903 --> 00:45:09.825
And they've found that this region of the brain that basically is your part of your brain that says, I can do hard things.
623
00:45:10.265 --> 00:45:10.465
Yeah.
624
00:45:10.725 --> 00:45:19.209
That part of the brain is physically larger in athletes, smaller in obese people, meaning that we can train our brain to do hard things.
625
00:45:19.529 --> 00:45:19.689
Yeah.
626
00:45:20.009 --> 00:45:20.949
So it's not fluff.
627
00:45:21.010 --> 00:45:23.150
And I know you're very much against well-being fluff.
628
00:45:23.611 --> 00:45:28.313
When we start to look, are there any other things that you think people could be considering on top of, you know,
629
00:45:29.193 --> 00:45:35.822
cold exposure, exercise, learning a new language, basically, like you said, anything where you've got to step out of your comfort zone.
630
00:45:37.223 --> 00:45:38.225
Yeah.
631
00:45:38.505 --> 00:45:43.892
Look, I mean, anything that makes you uncomfortable, and clearly we don't want to be...
632
00:45:44.905 --> 00:45:49.168
in a perpetual state of discomfort, you know, because that would lead to burnout.
633
00:45:49.748 --> 00:45:54.991
But we want to not shy away from that difficult, challenging stuff.
634
00:45:55.752 --> 00:46:00.715
And it's funny we're talking about this because, like, over the last 18 months I've been learning to sing.
635
00:46:01.555 --> 00:46:03.736
And I had a lesson this morning, yeah.
636
00:46:04.457 --> 00:46:06.158
And so...
637
00:46:08.790 --> 00:46:10.251
To help with performance?
638
00:46:10.351 --> 00:46:12.993
To help with your, like, stage performance?
639
00:46:13.013 --> 00:46:14.573
No, no, just for joy.
640
00:46:14.734 --> 00:46:15.414
Good on you.
641
00:46:15.554 --> 00:46:16.455
I love that.
642
00:46:16.835 --> 00:46:23.559
The two best things I've done for, or the two things that have made the biggest amount of impact on my well-being...
643
00:46:25.556 --> 00:46:35.461
Well, one of them is to put hobbies back in because all I had in my life was fitness, family and my business.
644
00:46:35.742 --> 00:46:35.962
Yep.
645
00:46:36.422 --> 00:46:41.785
And so what, so I've inserted hobbies back in and one of them is singing.
646
00:46:42.325 --> 00:46:42.806
Love that.
647
00:46:44.061 --> 00:46:49.664
Like my range suits like Pearl Jam, like Eddie Vedder.
648
00:46:49.824 --> 00:46:55.146
I definitely don't have the tone that he has, but I can sing those songs really, really easily.
649
00:46:55.186 --> 00:47:01.769
But my teachers got me singing God Only Knows by the Beach Boys and Radiohead.
650
00:47:01.869 --> 00:47:09.753
And if you know those two, like they're super high, they're very gentle, whereas I'm like I'm a metal head.
651
00:47:09.853 --> 00:47:11.974
So like I want the hard rock stuff.
652
00:47:12.781 --> 00:47:15.585
And I just had this lesson this morning.
653
00:47:15.725 --> 00:47:18.849
And at the end of it, I was like, bar out, that sucked.
654
00:47:18.929 --> 00:47:20.171
And I did not enjoy it.
655
00:47:20.832 --> 00:47:28.361
And my teacher said to me, yeah, the reason you didn't enjoy it is because you're the type of person who likes to grow and evolve.
656
00:47:29.122 --> 00:47:30.603
And she said, you could come here.
657
00:47:30.903 --> 00:47:33.925
We could sing easy stuff and have a great time.
658
00:47:34.305 --> 00:47:36.586
But you want to get better at the craft of singing.
659
00:47:37.067 --> 00:47:40.008
And that requires discomfort.
660
00:47:40.328 --> 00:47:45.011
And she was like, kind of like, well, that's the guy you are.
661
00:47:45.151 --> 00:47:46.672
And she said, I'm exactly the same.
662
00:47:47.551 --> 00:47:49.192
I like to challenge myself.
663
00:47:49.352 --> 00:47:56.637
So she said, there's going to be many times when you come here and you'll walk out and go, Oh, I hated that, but you will have grown from it.
664
00:47:56.757 --> 00:48:01.860
So, you know, it's that ability to be uncomfortable and rather than go, Oh, I didn't enjoy that.
665
00:48:01.880 --> 00:48:02.761
So I'm quitting.
666
00:48:03.181 --> 00:48:03.501
Yes.
667
00:48:03.962 --> 00:48:06.884
Like, well, that's, that's part of the process.
668
00:48:07.184 --> 00:48:12.487
So I think it is, it's having things that challenge you and even, um,
669
00:48:14.474 --> 00:48:25.582
like in the workplace, like we had a meeting with someone external yesterday and we, and a staff member and I were debating something and arguing about something.
670
00:48:26.062 --> 00:48:27.984
She thought it should be structured this way.
671
00:48:28.004 --> 00:48:30.005
I was like, nah, it should be this way.
672
00:48:30.065 --> 00:48:33.948
And we were having this like heated debate and argument.
673
00:48:35.009 --> 00:48:38.451
And after a while, I just went, actually, do you know what?
674
00:48:39.072 --> 00:48:39.612
You're right.
675
00:48:40.273 --> 00:48:40.493
Like,
676
00:48:41.402 --> 00:48:45.692
Now that you've pointed that out, your way's better, my way's not.
677
00:48:46.033 --> 00:48:48.519
Let's just go with what you've got written down.
678
00:48:49.347 --> 00:48:58.090
And afterwards he said, man, I've just never seen people in a team have debate like that and then move on so quickly.
679
00:48:58.370 --> 00:48:59.311
Wow.
680
00:48:59.411 --> 00:49:12.595
And what he was talking about was just that it's really great that you were able to, like, be uncomfortable and challenge each other and then, but it didn't have this lingering resentment.
681
00:49:13.275 --> 00:49:16.617
So I think people in the workplace view that,
682
00:49:18.498 --> 00:49:20.840
you know, if there is discomfort, that's bad.
683
00:49:21.080 --> 00:49:21.320
Yes.
684
00:49:21.400 --> 00:49:22.901
And that means something's wrong.
685
00:49:23.302 --> 00:49:24.362
Yep.
686
00:49:25.043 --> 00:49:29.987
But you've obviously built that psychological trust in your team for you to have that robust conversation.
687
00:49:30.387 --> 00:49:31.107
Very true.
688
00:49:31.147 --> 00:49:33.029
To be finished and we move on.
689
00:49:33.049 --> 00:49:34.610
There's no lingering resentment.
690
00:49:35.050 --> 00:49:36.992
I know you've talked a lot about resenteeism.
691
00:49:37.772 --> 00:49:38.013
Yeah.
692
00:49:38.433 --> 00:49:45.098
As well, that you've obviously got that really solid foundation of trust and safety that you can challenge ideas.
693
00:49:45.138 --> 00:49:47.380
You can have as a leader, your ideas challenged.
694
00:49:47.620 --> 00:49:47.960
Yeah.
695
00:49:48.493 --> 00:49:49.556
And that's built over time.
696
00:49:49.696 --> 00:49:50.538
Like that doesn't.
697
00:49:52.263 --> 00:49:52.864
Yeah.
698
00:49:53.005 --> 00:49:56.273
And, you know, particularly with that person, it's, it's,
699
00:49:58.107 --> 00:50:01.849
like we have the type of relationship that allows that to occur.
700
00:50:02.049 --> 00:50:02.249
Yes.
701
00:50:02.329 --> 00:50:09.151
But what it led to was just that ability to be uncomfortable led to a better outcome.
702
00:50:09.392 --> 00:50:09.512
Yeah.
703
00:50:09.532 --> 00:50:20.736
And I think the problem is in so many meetings we hold back, we don't speak up, we keep our ideas to ourselves, and we don't get the richness of that.
704
00:50:20.816 --> 00:50:22.897
So I'm just...
705
00:50:23.773 --> 00:50:32.081
Yeah, I think what's happening is our inability to be uncomfortable is holding us back in so many aspects of our life.
706
00:50:33.522 --> 00:50:34.323
Oh, that's so powerful.
707
00:50:34.423 --> 00:50:34.823
I agree.
708
00:50:34.863 --> 00:50:39.507
I hadn't thought of it like that because it is having a ripple effect on so many parts of our lives.
709
00:50:40.608 --> 00:50:40.989
Yeah.
710
00:50:41.029 --> 00:50:42.850
Just a performance lens.
711
00:50:43.731 --> 00:50:43.931
Yeah.
712
00:50:43.991 --> 00:50:47.294
And, like, even with my kids, I see this.
713
00:50:47.314 --> 00:50:48.655
Yeah.
714
00:50:49.670 --> 00:50:54.395
you know, like I've really tried to get them to embed and embrace challenge.
715
00:50:54.676 --> 00:50:54.856
Yep.
716
00:50:55.296 --> 00:50:57.859
Definitely hasn't worked out as well as I did.
717
00:50:58.340 --> 00:51:05.688
But like as parents, so I'm going to tell a story, but like –
718
00:51:09.191 --> 00:51:11.252
I struggle in so many areas of my life.
719
00:51:11.292 --> 00:51:12.973
Like, I don't think I'm a very good leader.
720
00:51:13.233 --> 00:51:15.974
I could definitely be a better parent.
721
00:51:15.994 --> 00:51:18.115
So the stories I'm telling you are the good ones.
722
00:51:18.195 --> 00:51:21.897
Like, it's not got this all together because I definitely don't.
723
00:51:22.397 --> 00:51:31.741
But, you know, my kid got in trouble for doing something at school and she definitely deserved to be in trouble.
724
00:51:32.561 --> 00:51:38.724
And the school called me and I had a conversation and this woman went, so like, we're going to,
725
00:51:39.347 --> 00:51:42.050
give her a detention on Friday.
726
00:51:42.150 --> 00:51:43.331
And I'm like, yeah.
727
00:51:44.092 --> 00:51:46.655
And she kind of went, oh, you're all right with that?
728
00:51:46.755 --> 00:51:49.198
And I went, yeah, because she deserves it.
729
00:51:49.498 --> 00:51:51.520
And I said, well, how many is she going to get?
730
00:51:52.041 --> 00:51:53.883
And the school was like, we're going to give her one.
731
00:51:53.983 --> 00:51:56.746
And I'm like, how about four?
732
00:51:58.925 --> 00:51:59.806
And they were like, what?
733
00:52:00.446 --> 00:52:03.168
And I went, because she was so out of line.
734
00:52:03.208 --> 00:52:04.990
Like, she's really got to learn that lesson.
735
00:52:05.510 --> 00:52:11.675
And what that person said on the phone is, oh, usually parents don't want that to occur.
736
00:52:11.835 --> 00:52:14.337
Like, they argue against detention.
737
00:52:14.377 --> 00:52:16.299
I'm like, no, she should have a consequence for that.
738
00:52:16.839 --> 00:52:18.721
So I think also with your kids...
739
00:52:19.583 --> 00:52:22.948
Don't shy away from, like, it's not going to hurt them.
740
00:52:22.988 --> 00:52:24.190
It's not going to break them.
741
00:52:24.330 --> 00:52:25.291
It's not abuse.
742
00:52:25.412 --> 00:52:26.694
It's not shame.
743
00:52:26.974 --> 00:52:29.217
It's just, hey, kid, you messed up.
744
00:52:29.678 --> 00:52:30.219
Guess what?
745
00:52:30.279 --> 00:52:31.761
There's a consequence to that.
746
00:52:31.981 --> 00:52:32.182
Yeah.
747
00:52:32.482 --> 00:52:33.684
And look, this is a very...
748
00:52:34.605 --> 00:52:45.731
loose Christie hypothesis, but I think we have a concerning generation of young people with really significant anxiety and some mental health challenges and not the only contributing factor.
749
00:52:45.751 --> 00:52:47.492
And I'm not minimalising it.
750
00:52:48.173 --> 00:52:55.617
But I think one of the chief reasons of our mental health crisis that we have with young people is that we have stopped asking them to do hard things.
751
00:52:56.037 --> 00:52:57.138
Yeah, totally.
752
00:52:57.358 --> 00:53:00.200
We have cushioned their lives.
753
00:53:01.521 --> 00:53:06.545
We sweep in, you know, whether you're a helicopter parent or whatever variation of parent that you are.
754
00:53:06.565 --> 00:53:12.409
And I think that the greatest thing we need as humans is that challenge.
755
00:53:12.429 --> 00:53:14.030
That's what we have to do.
756
00:53:14.050 --> 00:53:16.212
We are biologically wired to do hard things.
757
00:53:18.089 --> 00:53:22.210
And also, like, the negative emotion is a normal reaction.
758
00:53:22.290 --> 00:53:22.610
Yes.
759
00:53:23.070 --> 00:53:29.712
So I was talking to a school principal who the parent called and said, my kid can't come to school today because they've got anxiety.
760
00:53:30.752 --> 00:53:34.133
And he kind of went, well, anxiety about what?
761
00:53:35.213 --> 00:53:40.915
Oh, he's got to do a presentation today and he's feeling anxious about it, so I'm keeping him home.
762
00:53:42.136 --> 00:53:45.561
And he said to the parent, like, of course he has anxiety.
763
00:53:45.581 --> 00:53:49.226
If I asked you to come in and do a presentation, you'd have anxiety.
764
00:53:49.907 --> 00:53:55.275
So I think what we've done is demonized a perfectly normal reaction to
765
00:53:57.113 --> 00:53:59.834
that is negative but is normal.
766
00:53:59.874 --> 00:54:01.255
Like my daughter did something.
767
00:54:01.555 --> 00:54:02.436
She shouldn't have done it.
768
00:54:02.716 --> 00:54:05.477
She should feel like regret.
769
00:54:05.557 --> 00:54:08.559
She should feel not shame but.
770
00:54:08.619 --> 00:54:10.480
Yeah, that spectrum of emotions.
771
00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:11.340
Yeah.
772
00:54:11.580 --> 00:54:11.840
Yeah.
773
00:54:11.921 --> 00:54:15.122
Like, you know, it shouldn't be, oh, well, you're a bad person.
774
00:54:15.202 --> 00:54:17.003
But, hey, kid, you did something really bad.
775
00:54:17.243 --> 00:54:18.524
Like, and that's not good.
776
00:54:18.644 --> 00:54:20.265
And you feel bad about it.
777
00:54:21.045 --> 00:54:23.006
That's why that's the right feeling.
778
00:54:23.386 --> 00:54:26.228
Like I'm not trying to snap you out of that.
779
00:54:26.268 --> 00:54:26.508
Yeah.
780
00:54:27.408 --> 00:54:27.668
Yeah.
781
00:54:28.349 --> 00:54:31.310
Well, Adam, I'm going to close out in a moment.
782
00:54:32.351 --> 00:54:36.354
I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and I feel like we will need to have a part two.
783
00:54:36.374 --> 00:54:37.975
Definitely.
784
00:54:38.955 --> 00:54:42.838
I would love to know in closing out, this podcast is called Spacious Success.
785
00:54:43.718 --> 00:54:49.080
And whilst it is geared towards females, I'd love to hear as a male, what do you do?
786
00:54:49.100 --> 00:54:51.181
We heard a little bit about your hobbies.
787
00:54:51.961 --> 00:54:54.082
I know that health and fitness is a priority.
788
00:54:54.942 --> 00:55:03.065
What is it that you do so that you can experience this spacious, successful life with the remaining precious time that you have left?
789
00:55:04.840 --> 00:55:07.682
Yeah, I mean, the fitness thing is very important.
790
00:55:07.702 --> 00:55:10.204
I'm lucky in that I enjoy exercise.
791
00:55:10.804 --> 00:55:16.809
Like I look at people who don't enjoy it, not with judgment, but with, oh man, that's going to be tough.
792
00:55:16.849 --> 00:55:21.193
Like, so I exercise, you know, most days.
793
00:55:22.193 --> 00:55:45.098
um try to reduce alcohol and uh and obviously eat well um look i do a lot of work around my own recovery so every day i do um some sort of relaxation exercise like a you know an app on my phone that i listen to each day uh to give me that sort of um
794
00:55:46.653 --> 00:55:49.474
you know, that really downregulate my nervous system.
795
00:55:49.494 --> 00:55:55.657
I think one of the other things I do is, you know, I practice singing each day, which is 30 minutes to myself.
796
00:55:56.057 --> 00:55:57.277
I find it very cathartic.
797
00:55:57.377 --> 00:55:58.638
I find it almost...
798
00:55:59.118 --> 00:56:00.338
a little bit spiritual.
799
00:56:01.659 --> 00:56:10.281
So that's, and then obviously hanging out with my family and spending time with my wife is something I do daily.
800
00:56:11.321 --> 00:56:15.102
Every week, you know, this, I go to Manly and do a swim.
801
00:56:15.762 --> 00:56:25.844
We've often had breakfast after it where I'm shivering, but yeah, like I'll do a swim and that's definitely not about sort of cold water immersion.
802
00:56:25.984 --> 00:56:26.344
I don't know.
803
00:56:26.364 --> 00:56:27.865
It just, it fills up my carpet.
804
00:56:27.925 --> 00:56:28.145
Yep.
805
00:56:28.785 --> 00:56:30.286
it lights me up for some reason.
806
00:56:31.928 --> 00:56:45.780
Once a month, I am very aware of the fact that males get very lonely and everyone in my family is a female and everyone in my staff is a female.
807
00:56:45.820 --> 00:56:52.726
So once a month, I go to the racetrack and race my car around the racetrack.
808
00:56:53.827 --> 00:57:04.396
And hang out with a bunch of guys and we talk about tyre pressure and suspension and brakes and no one brings up Taylor Swift or hair care or...
809
00:57:05.382 --> 00:57:10.048
Yeah, it's where I go for my male bonding and my testosterone.
810
00:57:10.068 --> 00:57:10.949
Testosterone top up.
811
00:57:11.269 --> 00:57:11.570
Yeah.
812
00:57:12.110 --> 00:57:12.531
I love it.
813
00:57:12.571 --> 00:57:12.991
Very much.
814
00:57:13.913 --> 00:57:20.481
And, you know, obviously on the weekend I try to really disconnect and be present and get away from technology.
815
00:57:20.541 --> 00:57:24.586
So, yeah, they're the things I do to sustain myself.
816
00:57:25.018 --> 00:57:25.338
Brilliant.
817
00:57:25.378 --> 00:57:32.562
And I think the biggest thing that I've taken out of today that has nudged me to look at what I do is to consider hobbies.
818
00:57:33.522 --> 00:57:38.945
I asked a coaching client, a female client recently, and I just said to her, what do you do for fun?
819
00:57:39.145 --> 00:57:42.947
And you would have thought I asked for her stance on a political issue or...
820
00:57:43.647 --> 00:57:49.829
something very polarizing and her face just went blank and she genuinely couldn't answer what she did for fun.
821
00:57:49.969 --> 00:58:00.273
And so, yes, and I'm like you, I love exercise, but what is it that's that, that hobby where you enter that flow state where you lose track of time?
822
00:58:00.293 --> 00:58:03.614
You've spurred me on to figure out what that is.
823
00:58:03.714 --> 00:58:03.914
Yeah.
824
00:58:04.034 --> 00:58:08.276
And just if I can take a minute on that, I ask people,
825
00:58:09.273 --> 00:58:13.276
in my workshops, like, what do you do each week that lights you up?
826
00:58:13.376 --> 00:58:15.138
Like, what do you, what fills up your cup?
827
00:58:15.198 --> 00:58:16.319
What do you do for you?
828
00:58:17.179 --> 00:58:20.842
And what I notice is most men go, oh, I do this.
829
00:58:22.524 --> 00:58:31.311
But most women, not only do they not have it, but the most common response I get is people come up to me, like women come up to me and go, oh,
830
00:58:32.958 --> 00:58:35.159
oh, man, I've neglected myself for so long.
831
00:58:35.319 --> 00:58:40.422
Like not only do I not have it, but I don't even know what I would do.
832
00:58:40.943 --> 00:58:41.323
Bingo.
833
00:58:42.003 --> 00:58:42.684
Yeah.
834
00:58:42.724 --> 00:58:43.784
So that's a big one.
835
00:58:44.304 --> 00:58:56.752
Yeah, well, I'm going to encourage listeners to hold yourself to account, to think of a hobby, a pursuit, an activity, something that fuels you, that lights you up, that you derive pleasure from.
836
00:58:56.792 --> 00:58:58.653
There doesn't have to be an outcome attached to it.
837
00:58:59.733 --> 00:59:00.794
It may not be a racetrack.
838
00:59:01.294 --> 00:59:01.935
It could be artistic.
839
00:59:01.955 --> 00:59:02.816
It could be dancing.
840
00:59:02.956 --> 00:59:06.959
Yes, just something that really inspires you.
841
00:59:06.979 --> 00:59:10.842
I'm really grateful for your time, Adam.
842
00:59:10.862 --> 00:59:12.223
This has been a great conversation.
843
00:59:12.243 --> 00:59:13.744
Oh, my God, I've loved it.
844
00:59:13.764 --> 00:59:15.245
It's been the highlight of my week.
845
00:59:15.485 --> 00:59:15.986
Thank you.
846
00:59:16.006 --> 00:59:23.652
I'm hoping you're not, hopefully you're not saying that just because it's holidays and you're juggling.
847
00:59:23.752 --> 00:59:24.652
If our listeners want to.
848
00:59:24.692 --> 00:59:25.033
Angry teenagers.
849
00:59:25.113 --> 00:59:25.433
Angry teenagers.
850
00:59:25.693 --> 00:59:25.953
Yes.
851
00:59:26.534 --> 00:59:30.477
If our listeners want to find out more, where can they find out more about your work?
852
00:59:30.517 --> 00:59:37.022
Adam is a keynote speaker and a workshop facilitator and does some fabulous work across a range of industries.
853
00:59:37.082 --> 00:59:41.045
Can you give our listeners just a little bit of an insight into what you do and where they can find you?
854
00:59:41.465 --> 00:59:44.926
Yeah, just dradamfraser.com is my website.
855
00:59:44.946 --> 00:59:46.707
You know, I'm on all the socials.
856
00:59:46.867 --> 00:59:49.588
And really, I spend my time in three areas.
857
00:59:49.708 --> 00:59:51.109
Like you, I present a lot.
858
00:59:52.209 --> 00:59:53.369
So that's one area.
859
00:59:53.630 --> 00:59:55.310
Second area is research.
860
00:59:55.350 --> 00:59:58.571
So we do a lot of research with different universities.
861
00:59:58.611 --> 01:00:04.534
We just completed the world's biggest study looking at the impact of secondary trauma on educators.
862
01:00:04.614 --> 01:00:04.814
Wow.
863
01:00:04.834 --> 01:00:05.174
Wow.
864
01:00:06.056 --> 01:00:07.957
Yeah, which is a big problem.
865
01:00:08.017 --> 01:00:15.499
And the third area is we do like large programs and design programs for organisations to achieve outcomes.
866
01:00:16.219 --> 01:00:16.679
Brilliant.
867
01:00:16.819 --> 01:00:17.380
So that's us.
868
01:00:18.060 --> 01:00:18.480
Fabulous.
869
01:00:18.500 --> 01:00:19.440
Well, thank you for your time.
870
01:00:20.040 --> 01:00:23.181
I really appreciate your insights, your powerful observations.
871
01:00:24.002 --> 01:00:25.802
And don't forget, Adam's great books.
872
01:00:25.842 --> 01:00:26.702
And you've got a third book.
873
01:00:26.722 --> 01:00:28.323
You've got another book coming out too, don't you?
874
01:00:28.863 --> 01:00:29.643
Yeah.
875
01:00:29.683 --> 01:00:31.424
Yeah, it's a bit early.
876
01:00:31.464 --> 01:00:32.924
I'm still trying to finish it.
877
01:00:33.484 --> 01:00:34.605
You're striving with that one.
878
01:00:35.385 --> 01:00:40.168
But in the meantime, you can grab Strive or The Third Space.
879
01:00:40.208 --> 01:00:41.269
They're my two favourites.
880
01:00:41.429 --> 01:00:42.970
So thank you for your time, Adam.
881
01:00:43.010 --> 01:00:43.930
I'm deeply grateful.
882
01:00:44.371 --> 01:00:45.972
And I will chat to you offline.
883
01:00:46.472 --> 01:00:46.892
Thank you.
884
01:00:46.912 --> 01:00:47.433
Soon.
885
01:00:47.653 --> 01:00:48.013
Thank you.