1
00:00:16,329 --> 00:00:19,869
Chris Marchand is a priest in the ACNA.
2
00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,750
If you don't know what that is,
that's the Anglican church of
3
00:00:22,750 --> 00:00:26,720
America, a long time pot, North
America, excuse me, North America.
4
00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:27,219
Sorry, Brandon.
5
00:00:27,249 --> 00:00:29,559
These mainline churches
really freaked me out.
6
00:00:29,889 --> 00:00:34,319
He's an educator, a long time podcaster
and having producer and host of teen
7
00:00:34,399 --> 00:00:36,819
tent talks and post consumer reports.
8
00:00:36,819 --> 00:00:38,769
Chris is a guy who loves lots of things.
9
00:00:39,045 --> 00:00:40,144
He loves God, everybody.
10
00:00:40,155 --> 00:00:42,065
He loves his family, loves
the arch, loves tennis.
11
00:00:42,065 --> 00:00:42,765
He loves food.
12
00:00:43,365 --> 00:00:47,425
Brandon has been a little obsessed with
your podcast, Chris, Wall of Silence.
13
00:00:47,425 --> 00:00:50,755
We're going to talk about that, but I'd
really like to just talk about homemade
14
00:00:50,755 --> 00:00:53,455
pizza because your podcast is so serious.
15
00:00:53,785 --> 00:00:56,495
Like I literally have bitten
off all of my fingernails.
16
00:00:56,805 --> 00:00:58,695
Brandon's been hitting his dashboard.
17
00:00:58,785 --> 00:01:00,875
It is some serious
business what you're doing.
18
00:01:00,875 --> 00:01:02,885
So Brandon, you want to
start with wall of silence?
19
00:01:03,375 --> 00:01:03,945
I will.
20
00:01:03,945 --> 00:01:07,225
But first thing I'm going to
do is we do on our show, Chris,
21
00:01:07,634 --> 00:01:09,234
we do five seconds of silence.
22
00:01:09,785 --> 00:01:13,075
And the reason we do that is because
Larry fundamentally believes that
23
00:01:13,075 --> 00:01:16,185
most Americans or people never
get any silence in their day.
24
00:01:16,454 --> 00:01:19,795
So we're going to do our, we've never
done this with an interviewee before.
25
00:01:19,795 --> 00:01:20,635
We've never done one.
26
00:01:20,635 --> 00:01:23,265
We're doing it with you because
That's how much I feel like
27
00:01:23,265 --> 00:01:24,365
we need silence on this show.
28
00:01:24,365 --> 00:01:24,875
Hold on a sec.
29
00:01:24,905 --> 00:01:25,435
Just real quick.
30
00:01:25,435 --> 00:01:27,455
We invited Chris on the show to not speak.
31
00:01:27,455 --> 00:01:28,655
Is that what was going on here?
32
00:01:29,305 --> 00:01:30,525
That's exactly what's going on.
33
00:01:30,845 --> 00:01:33,914
Five seconds of silence starting right
now, brought to you by the Smarticle
34
00:01:33,915 --> 00:01:35,005
podcast and the wall of silence.
35
00:01:40,725 --> 00:01:44,175
Chris Marchand is, Larry
said, is an Anglican priest.
36
00:01:44,455 --> 00:01:47,205
Now I'm not going to give
the background on the ACNA.
37
00:01:47,205 --> 00:01:49,535
Larry always gets mad at me
because he says I filibuster,
38
00:01:49,575 --> 00:01:51,355
but I am a member of the ACNA.
39
00:01:51,405 --> 00:01:55,635
I am a member in good standing The ACNA
is the Anglican Church of North America.
40
00:01:55,635 --> 00:01:59,745
It split off about, I think, what, 10
years ago from the Episcopal Church.
41
00:02:00,415 --> 00:02:02,545
It's a little bit more
conservative, blah, blah, blah.
42
00:02:03,785 --> 00:02:06,225
Chris does this podcast
called the wall of silence.
43
00:02:06,755 --> 00:02:09,844
I found this podcast because a friend
of mine from the West coast said,
44
00:02:09,845 --> 00:02:12,374
Hey dude, do you, you love podcasts?
45
00:02:12,384 --> 00:02:13,745
Do you, have you heard this thing yet?
46
00:02:13,754 --> 00:02:14,844
I'm like, no, what are you talking about?
47
00:02:14,844 --> 00:02:16,894
So he sent me a link and it was.
48
00:02:17,460 --> 00:02:22,390
The day that you said the wall of
silence podcast has been silenced.
49
00:02:22,410 --> 00:02:24,330
So I was like, I'm curious.
50
00:02:24,330 --> 00:02:27,489
For the record, you're keeping him
silenced by this long question.
51
00:02:27,500 --> 00:02:28,109
But go on.
52
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:29,750
I know, I know, I know, I know.
53
00:02:30,050 --> 00:02:35,330
So the wall of silence is a podcast that
talks about sexual abuse within the ACNA.
54
00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:36,750
So I will pitch that to you, Chris.
55
00:02:36,790 --> 00:02:40,340
Can you explain to us how you started
it, why you started it, and what it is?
56
00:02:41,230 --> 00:02:45,630
Well, I started it because I
observed what was going on in my
57
00:02:45,630 --> 00:02:49,830
own denomination, and this would
have been in the summer of 2021.
58
00:02:50,390 --> 00:02:51,970
Which, we were all in a mess.
59
00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,220
We were, and we were all bored sitting
around needing something to do.
60
00:02:56,589 --> 00:03:01,155
But, what ended up happening in the
summer of 2021 is A group of women
61
00:03:01,315 --> 00:03:06,105
going forward with what has happened to
them at a church in Wheaton, Illinois,
62
00:03:06,125 --> 00:03:07,825
which is a a suburb of Chicago.
63
00:03:08,035 --> 00:03:09,615
There's Wheaton College that's there.
64
00:03:10,035 --> 00:03:12,555
And I have my own podcast.
65
00:03:12,555 --> 00:03:17,065
I was partnering with a British
theologian and that podcast was mostly
66
00:03:17,075 --> 00:03:20,950
interviews, , bring on a theologian,
bring on a historian, bring on, Somebody
67
00:03:20,950 --> 00:03:24,000
working with people around the world
and but then we started to try to tell
68
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,590
other stories and in different ways
and more documentary form and as I just
69
00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,360
kept listening to their stories, but
also watching their online presence,
70
00:03:34,100 --> 00:03:36,350
seeing how no headway was being made.
71
00:03:36,350 --> 00:03:37,820
It seemed like every time they updated.
72
00:03:38,405 --> 00:03:42,025
It was being updated with something
that nothing was actually happening.
73
00:03:42,025 --> 00:03:44,595
It was more stonewalling of progress.
74
00:03:45,225 --> 00:03:47,855
And I thought, I just want
to help them tell this story.
75
00:03:47,855 --> 00:03:49,275
I feel like people need to hear it.
76
00:03:49,515 --> 00:03:50,155
You know, it's interesting.
77
00:03:50,215 --> 00:03:51,535
We're on audio right now.
78
00:03:51,955 --> 00:03:55,365
I love to read, but I think
there's something powerful
79
00:03:55,365 --> 00:03:56,795
about the presence of a person.
80
00:03:57,325 --> 00:04:00,385
And so I wanted to be able to help
tell their story where it's there.
81
00:04:00,585 --> 00:04:01,535
It's in their own voices.
82
00:04:02,535 --> 00:04:05,575
So when you first discovered this or
started thinking about it, did you
83
00:04:05,595 --> 00:04:07,145
know anything about the abuse stuff?
84
00:04:07,145 --> 00:04:08,195
Or were you just reading online?
85
00:04:08,205 --> 00:04:09,665
Like most people were in 2021?
86
00:04:09,665 --> 00:04:10,625
Yeah, zero, zero.
87
00:04:10,625 --> 00:04:11,325
I knew zero.
88
00:04:11,355 --> 00:04:16,125
I knew of the church, the the church
is church of the resurrection is pretty
89
00:04:16,155 --> 00:04:18,965
well known among Anglicans in our state.
90
00:04:19,015 --> 00:04:21,835
, it's not necessarily the mega
church, but it's like a pretty large
91
00:04:21,835 --> 00:04:24,105
Anglican church and there's not
a lot of large Anglican churches.
92
00:04:25,215 --> 00:04:25,455
Chris.
93
00:04:25,455 --> 00:04:27,545
So you mentioned this in the podcast that.
94
00:04:27,855 --> 00:04:32,385
Human beings like to listen to drama,
these big, kind of meaty, like,
95
00:04:32,645 --> 00:04:34,225
true crime stories are a big deal.
96
00:04:34,225 --> 00:04:37,015
You mentioned Shakespeare
telling lots of tragedies.
97
00:04:38,285 --> 00:04:39,205
Abuse is everywhere.
98
00:04:39,205 --> 00:04:42,025
It's in families, it's in businesses.
99
00:04:42,315 --> 00:04:45,035
What's the difference between
all of that and abuse in,
100
00:04:45,165 --> 00:04:46,915
specifically, a church setting?
101
00:04:46,925 --> 00:04:47,965
Is there a difference?
102
00:04:49,085 --> 00:04:51,445
Oh, you know, I don't know.
103
00:04:51,445 --> 00:04:57,475
I think maybe the difference is
the way that it's handled when the
104
00:04:57,475 --> 00:05:01,915
conversation comes up and then this
kind of in some senses leads to
105
00:05:02,490 --> 00:05:10,230
Myself in my own story, because maybe
it's very similar to any type of
106
00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:12,710
culture.
107
00:05:12,710 --> 00:05:14,320
I think of like a police culture.
108
00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:15,660
I think of military culture.
109
00:05:15,700 --> 00:05:19,080
Maybe somebody else can chime in
here where there's a, there is
110
00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,050
an an assumed set of allegiance.
111
00:05:21,550 --> 00:05:24,970
And so the clergy very much
have to fall in line with.
112
00:05:25,475 --> 00:05:26,365
with what is happening.
113
00:05:26,365 --> 00:05:30,005
And so this is why you haven't seen
very many other priests speaking
114
00:05:30,005 --> 00:05:32,625
out, because it gets tamped down.
115
00:05:32,815 --> 00:05:34,865
You're going against the brotherhood.
116
00:05:35,235 --> 00:05:40,885
And then that kind of spreads out into
how a congregation honors their leaders.
117
00:05:40,985 --> 00:05:45,315
And this is really conflicting because
Hey, I want to live in a world where
118
00:05:45,315 --> 00:05:46,785
I want to honor my leaders too.
119
00:05:47,425 --> 00:05:50,455
And, but what do we do when there's
a split, when there's some kind
120
00:05:50,455 --> 00:05:53,165
of oh, things are cracking here.
121
00:05:53,185 --> 00:05:54,225
And how do we handle this?
122
00:05:54,475 --> 00:05:59,645
Am I being a rebellious, am I
stirring up a horrible contentious
123
00:05:59,645 --> 00:06:04,085
spirit in my community and ruining
everything by addressing abuse?
124
00:06:04,385 --> 00:06:10,835
And so, We all tend to feel like we
are going against the whole world that
125
00:06:10,835 --> 00:06:14,845
is around us, as if the abuse itself
wasn't doing that in the first place.
126
00:06:15,555 --> 00:06:18,765
I want to chime in just on that, because
I feel like the church is supposed
127
00:06:18,775 --> 00:06:21,545
to, in theory, teach about Jesus.
128
00:06:21,715 --> 00:06:23,565
Jesus never said abuse people.
129
00:06:23,615 --> 00:06:28,100
Is this sense that The church is doing so
much good that, hey, you keep, we're going
130
00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:32,010
to silence your tiny one story of abuse
because we're, because the greater good
131
00:06:32,010 --> 00:06:36,600
of all that we're doing is worth more than
your story of one person being abused.
132
00:06:37,370 --> 00:06:37,950
That's great.
133
00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:39,670
I have spent, that's a great question.
134
00:06:39,980 --> 00:06:43,690
I've spent a lot of hours
reading people's stories.
135
00:06:43,740 --> 00:06:48,285
And I'm working on a story right now with
a woman who worked with this diocese.
136
00:06:48,715 --> 00:06:50,105
Which is the grouping of churches.
137
00:06:50,545 --> 00:06:52,925
And I don't want to say who she
is right now, but her story is
138
00:06:52,925 --> 00:06:54,055
going to come out in a few weeks.
139
00:06:54,665 --> 00:07:01,035
And I think it's a whole, a lot of
people lost in this swirl of yes, we
140
00:07:01,035 --> 00:07:06,175
are doing God's work and speaking about
this in certain ways are really, really
141
00:07:06,175 --> 00:07:07,975
addressing it will ruin that work.
142
00:07:08,595 --> 00:07:12,705
I've read so many emails where it's
really conflicting because it's not always
143
00:07:12,705 --> 00:07:14,615
people just treating others awfully.
144
00:07:15,015 --> 00:07:17,755
There's a way of pushing
people to the side.
145
00:07:18,485 --> 00:07:20,525
And saying, yeah, we're not
going to go that direction.
146
00:07:20,945 --> 00:07:25,995
And then the victim or the survivor
or the advocate, they get silenced.
147
00:07:26,635 --> 00:07:29,725
And then they're like, Oh, I guess
I was working with these people,
148
00:07:30,085 --> 00:07:31,525
but now I'm seen as a threat.
149
00:07:31,845 --> 00:07:34,885
And then eventually, and maybe
this is how online culture works.
150
00:07:35,105 --> 00:07:37,935
Then there are people like
this happened with Joanna.
151
00:07:38,305 --> 00:07:43,145
She's not a Christian, and I
don't know about you guys, but
152
00:07:43,145 --> 00:07:44,615
I know a few non Christians.
153
00:07:45,985 --> 00:07:50,175
And I wouldn't speak about Joanna
publicly the way that the people
154
00:07:50,175 --> 00:07:51,815
in this church spoke about her.
155
00:07:52,095 --> 00:07:53,745
Because I, these are people that I love.
156
00:07:53,755 --> 00:07:56,895
These are, like, one of my best friends
in the world is no longer a Christian.
157
00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,270
And we talk, five times a week
or, you know, text back and forth.
158
00:08:00,650 --> 00:08:02,620
I'm like, who cares if
she's not a Christian?
159
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,180
She's telling us she's been abused.
160
00:08:04,550 --> 00:08:06,560
Larry might not be a
Christian anymore, Chris.
161
00:08:06,570 --> 00:08:08,870
So we're, should I keep talking to him?
162
00:08:08,870 --> 00:08:09,380
Is it okay?
163
00:08:10,130 --> 00:08:12,220
I feel like as a priest, you
might want to talk to him.
164
00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,160
You kind of touched on this
a little bit on this idea.
165
00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:16,080
Now I was raised Catholic.
166
00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:16,670
So it was like.
167
00:08:16,900 --> 00:08:19,090
There's very much this is the
voice of God in front of me.
168
00:08:19,090 --> 00:08:21,680
The priest is the voice of
God, but this is happening.
169
00:08:21,690 --> 00:08:23,710
This is not just happening
in the Catholic church.
170
00:08:24,190 --> 00:08:25,480
It's happening in the Anglican church.
171
00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,280
It's happening in the SBC, the
Southern Baptist convention.
172
00:08:28,490 --> 00:08:31,890
It's happening in churches all
across America and the world.
173
00:08:32,740 --> 00:08:33,040
Yeah.
174
00:08:33,490 --> 00:08:36,650
When you talk about this, one of
the things that makes me pound my
175
00:08:36,950 --> 00:08:40,910
Dashboard, I literally got choked up
when I was hearing Joanna's story.
176
00:08:40,950 --> 00:08:45,020
And again, your episode seven, the woman
that Goewey that just talked about I
177
00:08:45,020 --> 00:08:48,760
was like, Oh my, how can you not hear
these people and feel for them as a
178
00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,530
Christian or just as a human being?
179
00:08:50,730 --> 00:08:52,770
So my question is, why
does this keep happening?
180
00:08:56,510 --> 00:08:57,060
Yeah.
181
00:08:57,530 --> 00:08:58,390
I thought about that.
182
00:08:58,830 --> 00:09:03,360
And when we're recording this, it's
the day after a presidential debate.
183
00:09:03,610 --> 00:09:04,060
Yes.
184
00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:04,730
And.
185
00:09:05,815 --> 00:09:11,925
One of the main approaches to any
kind of political campaign is fear.
186
00:09:12,895 --> 00:09:13,635
I guess it's worth noting.
187
00:09:13,685 --> 00:09:17,595
I had a priest I sent, well, there's
some things that I haven't actually
188
00:09:18,145 --> 00:09:19,445
necessarily talked about yet.
189
00:09:19,455 --> 00:09:24,925
And I'm sorting through what to talk
about, but I sent my bishop's letter to
190
00:09:24,925 --> 00:09:28,365
somebody and then, and I had them look
over my bishop sent me a letter to stop.
191
00:09:28,795 --> 00:09:33,995
To pause the podcast and this
priest, he responded back.
192
00:09:33,995 --> 00:09:36,425
He said, I sense a lot of fear.
193
00:09:36,875 --> 00:09:38,385
I sense a lot of fear in this letter.
194
00:09:39,325 --> 00:09:44,085
And I guess maybe it's just worth taking
stock of what we're all potentially
195
00:09:44,085 --> 00:09:45,995
capable of silencing somebody else.
196
00:09:46,755 --> 00:09:47,365
I will say this.
197
00:09:47,365 --> 00:09:50,325
I guess I came on and I thinking,
what am I going to talk about today?
198
00:09:51,095 --> 00:09:56,905
One of my big regrets about all this,
I don't know about regrets, or it's
199
00:09:56,905 --> 00:10:01,555
one of my big conflicts, is I had
another meeting with my bishop in July,
200
00:10:01,985 --> 00:10:06,055
and there was another priest there,
and there were other priests in this
201
00:10:06,085 --> 00:10:13,655
meeting, and the, he said, now, none of
this is gonna end up on Twitter, right?
202
00:10:13,755 --> 00:10:14,925
We, can we agree on that?
203
00:10:15,615 --> 00:10:21,800
And I had spent an hour being barraged
with Questions and confronted with my own
204
00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:26,350
actions and all this stuff and trying to
go back and forth and reaching clarity.
205
00:10:27,020 --> 00:10:29,700
And in the moment I said, Oh yeah, sure.
206
00:10:29,700 --> 00:10:30,810
Of course, of course.
207
00:10:31,470 --> 00:10:32,590
And I regret that.
208
00:10:32,590 --> 00:10:37,760
I think because the assumption
of that meeting and it was told
209
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,770
to me before and afterwards was
this is a pastoral meeting, right?
210
00:10:42,190 --> 00:10:44,110
And it didn't feel like
a pastoral meeting.
211
00:10:44,785 --> 00:10:50,315
And so I'm sitting here now
today questioning, Oh, if I say
212
00:10:50,315 --> 00:10:52,255
this, am I going to get sued?
213
00:10:52,995 --> 00:10:54,995
Am I going to lose all of my community?
214
00:10:54,995 --> 00:10:55,755
My friends.
215
00:10:56,805 --> 00:10:58,905
So when you ask like, why
does this keep happening?
216
00:10:58,945 --> 00:11:01,155
I think it's, it's
really easy to be afraid.
217
00:11:01,705 --> 00:11:06,705
Even for us, if we're just a local church
goer, like it's just easier to shut up.
218
00:11:07,295 --> 00:11:10,865
And to allow it to happen now the
greater thing is and there's a new
219
00:11:10,865 --> 00:11:14,095
one this week or in the past Week
there's this it's called morning star.
220
00:11:14,095 --> 00:11:15,315
Have you heard of morning star there?
221
00:11:15,535 --> 00:11:19,335
There's this kind of prophetic guy
named rick joiner and there's another
222
00:11:19,335 --> 00:11:23,305
scandal that's brewed i'm scared
of prophetic guys But yes, yeah.
223
00:11:23,305 --> 00:11:23,825
Oh, it's funny.
224
00:11:23,855 --> 00:11:26,675
I grew up in the the assemblies
of god Hey, wait a minute.
225
00:11:26,705 --> 00:11:27,225
Did you go to this?
226
00:11:27,225 --> 00:11:29,455
Did you go to the same snake
charming church as brandon?
227
00:11:31,435 --> 00:11:32,375
We've been there, done that.
228
00:11:33,655 --> 00:11:33,805
Yeah.
229
00:11:33,805 --> 00:11:34,015
Okay.
230
00:11:34,095 --> 00:11:35,225
Did you actually go to one of those?
231
00:11:35,235 --> 00:11:37,145
My mom took us from a Catholic church.
232
00:11:37,145 --> 00:11:38,165
So imagine this Chris.
233
00:11:38,555 --> 00:11:42,145
To from a catholic church to an aog
church for three years And it was
234
00:11:42,385 --> 00:11:46,355
literally one of the most scarring
experiences of my entire life personally
235
00:11:46,725 --> 00:11:51,105
mentally and spiritually But well
brandon, that's interesting I grew up
236
00:11:51,105 --> 00:11:55,565
catholic as well until I was like six
and then assemblies of god until I was
237
00:11:55,565 --> 00:12:00,415
an adult nice Yeah, we need to do our
own podcast on that conversion crest.
238
00:12:00,415 --> 00:12:01,375
We'll just do that show.
239
00:12:01,535 --> 00:12:02,075
There we go.
240
00:12:02,135 --> 00:12:07,180
I mean There's some interesting stories I
would say my church was not in that sense.
241
00:12:07,180 --> 00:12:07,750
Crazy.
242
00:12:07,930 --> 00:12:09,340
There was prophetic things.
243
00:12:09,810 --> 00:12:13,890
The, I guess the point that I wanna
bring up is why, and it's a question
244
00:12:13,890 --> 00:12:20,220
maybe back to all of us, is Yeah, why
is sexual abuse, why is manipulation
245
00:12:20,220 --> 00:12:22,620
so rampant amongst church leaders?
246
00:12:22,625 --> 00:12:25,140
This is Mm-Hmm, . This to me is
something that's really disturbing.
247
00:12:25,610 --> 00:12:29,190
Along those lines the main thing
that I got out of your podcast.
248
00:12:30,780 --> 00:12:31,710
It could be religion.
249
00:12:31,710 --> 00:12:32,420
It could be whatever.
250
00:12:32,420 --> 00:12:36,900
When someone's saying, don't talk
about this, be silent on this, whether
251
00:12:36,900 --> 00:12:41,200
it's in a relationship, whether it's
theology, whatever it is, if someone's
252
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,510
like, Hey, don't talk about this,
then they're trying to cover it up.
253
00:12:46,490 --> 00:12:49,970
And I don't like, you're supposed
to have close, intimate friends and
254
00:12:49,970 --> 00:12:51,730
community to talk about everything.
255
00:12:51,770 --> 00:12:53,950
Like your bad thoughts,
your good thoughts.
256
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,560
And some, once someone's telling you
to be silent, that's what it's wrong.
257
00:12:58,150 --> 00:13:00,710
That's what, whatever that is
in life, that's what's wrong.
258
00:13:01,865 --> 00:13:03,985
Well, thanks for
listening to today's show.
259
00:13:04,255 --> 00:13:05,385
This is a first for us.
260
00:13:05,385 --> 00:13:09,735
We have never done a two part show
before, but we knew that this was going
261
00:13:09,735 --> 00:13:13,165
to be a long show and we think it's a
really important show and we're really
262
00:13:13,165 --> 00:13:14,575
grateful that Chris would come on.
263
00:13:14,725 --> 00:13:18,325
We're going to release this
first part one episode today.
264
00:13:18,505 --> 00:13:22,015
Remember to find Chris's podcast,
The Wall of Silence, you'll find it
265
00:13:22,035 --> 00:13:23,785
anywhere where you find podcasts.
266
00:13:24,205 --> 00:13:26,975
What the work he's doing is really,
really important and we're really
267
00:13:26,975 --> 00:13:28,625
grateful that you would come on today.
268
00:13:28,625 --> 00:13:28,705
Take care.
269
00:13:28,845 --> 00:13:31,365
We look forward to being with you
next week and we hope that you're
270
00:13:31,365 --> 00:13:34,985
looking forward to hearing part
two of the Chris Marchand and
271
00:13:34,985 --> 00:13:36,255
the Wall of Silence interview.
00:00:16,329 --> 00:00:19,869
Chris Marchand is a priest in the ACNA.
2
00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,750
If you don't know what that is,
that's the Anglican church of
3
00:00:22,750 --> 00:00:26,720
America, a long time pot, North
America, excuse me, North America.
4
00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:27,219
Sorry, Brandon.
5
00:00:27,249 --> 00:00:29,559
These mainline churches
really freaked me out.
6
00:00:29,889 --> 00:00:34,319
He's an educator, a long time podcaster
and having producer and host of teen
7
00:00:34,399 --> 00:00:36,819
tent talks and post consumer reports.
8
00:00:36,819 --> 00:00:38,769
Chris is a guy who loves lots of things.
9
00:00:39,045 --> 00:00:40,144
He loves God, everybody.
10
00:00:40,155 --> 00:00:42,065
He loves his family, loves
the arch, loves tennis.
11
00:00:42,065 --> 00:00:42,765
He loves food.
12
00:00:43,365 --> 00:00:47,425
Brandon has been a little obsessed with
your podcast, Chris, Wall of Silence.
13
00:00:47,425 --> 00:00:50,755
We're going to talk about that, but I'd
really like to just talk about homemade
14
00:00:50,755 --> 00:00:53,455
pizza because your podcast is so serious.
15
00:00:53,785 --> 00:00:56,495
Like I literally have bitten
off all of my fingernails.
16
00:00:56,805 --> 00:00:58,695
Brandon's been hitting his dashboard.
17
00:00:58,785 --> 00:01:00,875
It is some serious
business what you're doing.
18
00:01:00,875 --> 00:01:02,885
So Brandon, you want to
start with wall of silence?
19
00:01:03,375 --> 00:01:03,945
I will.
20
00:01:03,945 --> 00:01:07,225
But first thing I'm going to
do is we do on our show, Chris,
21
00:01:07,634 --> 00:01:09,234
we do five seconds of silence.
22
00:01:09,785 --> 00:01:13,075
And the reason we do that is because
Larry fundamentally believes that
23
00:01:13,075 --> 00:01:16,185
most Americans or people never
get any silence in their day.
24
00:01:16,454 --> 00:01:19,795
So we're going to do our, we've never
done this with an interviewee before.
25
00:01:19,795 --> 00:01:20,635
We've never done one.
26
00:01:20,635 --> 00:01:23,265
We're doing it with you because
That's how much I feel like
27
00:01:23,265 --> 00:01:24,365
we need silence on this show.
28
00:01:24,365 --> 00:01:24,875
Hold on a sec.
29
00:01:24,905 --> 00:01:25,435
Just real quick.
30
00:01:25,435 --> 00:01:27,455
We invited Chris on the show to not speak.
31
00:01:27,455 --> 00:01:28,655
Is that what was going on here?
32
00:01:29,305 --> 00:01:30,525
That's exactly what's going on.
33
00:01:30,845 --> 00:01:33,914
Five seconds of silence starting right
now, brought to you by the Smarticle
34
00:01:33,915 --> 00:01:35,005
podcast and the wall of silence.
35
00:01:40,725 --> 00:01:44,175
Chris Marchand is, Larry
said, is an Anglican priest.
36
00:01:44,455 --> 00:01:47,205
Now I'm not going to give
the background on the ACNA.
37
00:01:47,205 --> 00:01:49,535
Larry always gets mad at me
because he says I filibuster,
38
00:01:49,575 --> 00:01:51,355
but I am a member of the ACNA.
39
00:01:51,405 --> 00:01:55,635
I am a member in good standing The ACNA
is the Anglican Church of North America.
40
00:01:55,635 --> 00:01:59,745
It split off about, I think, what, 10
years ago from the Episcopal Church.
41
00:02:00,415 --> 00:02:02,545
It's a little bit more
conservative, blah, blah, blah.
42
00:02:03,785 --> 00:02:06,225
Chris does this podcast
called the wall of silence.
43
00:02:06,755 --> 00:02:09,844
I found this podcast because a friend
of mine from the West coast said,
44
00:02:09,845 --> 00:02:12,374
Hey dude, do you, you love podcasts?
45
00:02:12,384 --> 00:02:13,745
Do you, have you heard this thing yet?
46
00:02:13,754 --> 00:02:14,844
I'm like, no, what are you talking about?
47
00:02:14,844 --> 00:02:16,894
So he sent me a link and it was.
48
00:02:17,460 --> 00:02:22,390
The day that you said the wall of
silence podcast has been silenced.
49
00:02:22,410 --> 00:02:24,330
So I was like, I'm curious.
50
00:02:24,330 --> 00:02:27,489
For the record, you're keeping him
silenced by this long question.
51
00:02:27,500 --> 00:02:28,109
But go on.
52
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:29,750
I know, I know, I know, I know.
53
00:02:30,050 --> 00:02:35,330
So the wall of silence is a podcast that
talks about sexual abuse within the ACNA.
54
00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:36,750
So I will pitch that to you, Chris.
55
00:02:36,790 --> 00:02:40,340
Can you explain to us how you started
it, why you started it, and what it is?
56
00:02:41,230 --> 00:02:45,630
Well, I started it because I
observed what was going on in my
57
00:02:45,630 --> 00:02:49,830
own denomination, and this would
have been in the summer of 2021.
58
00:02:50,390 --> 00:02:51,970
Which, we were all in a mess.
59
00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,220
We were, and we were all bored sitting
around needing something to do.
60
00:02:56,589 --> 00:03:01,155
But, what ended up happening in the
summer of 2021 is A group of women
61
00:03:01,315 --> 00:03:06,105
going forward with what has happened to
them at a church in Wheaton, Illinois,
62
00:03:06,125 --> 00:03:07,825
which is a a suburb of Chicago.
63
00:03:08,035 --> 00:03:09,615
There's Wheaton College that's there.
64
00:03:10,035 --> 00:03:12,555
And I have my own podcast.
65
00:03:12,555 --> 00:03:17,065
I was partnering with a British
theologian and that podcast was mostly
66
00:03:17,075 --> 00:03:20,950
interviews, , bring on a theologian,
bring on a historian, bring on, Somebody
67
00:03:20,950 --> 00:03:24,000
working with people around the world
and but then we started to try to tell
68
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,590
other stories and in different ways
and more documentary form and as I just
69
00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,360
kept listening to their stories, but
also watching their online presence,
70
00:03:34,100 --> 00:03:36,350
seeing how no headway was being made.
71
00:03:36,350 --> 00:03:37,820
It seemed like every time they updated.
72
00:03:38,405 --> 00:03:42,025
It was being updated with something
that nothing was actually happening.
73
00:03:42,025 --> 00:03:44,595
It was more stonewalling of progress.
74
00:03:45,225 --> 00:03:47,855
And I thought, I just want
to help them tell this story.
75
00:03:47,855 --> 00:03:49,275
I feel like people need to hear it.
76
00:03:49,515 --> 00:03:50,155
You know, it's interesting.
77
00:03:50,215 --> 00:03:51,535
We're on audio right now.
78
00:03:51,955 --> 00:03:55,365
I love to read, but I think
there's something powerful
79
00:03:55,365 --> 00:03:56,795
about the presence of a person.
80
00:03:57,325 --> 00:04:00,385
And so I wanted to be able to help
tell their story where it's there.
81
00:04:00,585 --> 00:04:01,535
It's in their own voices.
82
00:04:02,535 --> 00:04:05,575
So when you first discovered this or
started thinking about it, did you
83
00:04:05,595 --> 00:04:07,145
know anything about the abuse stuff?
84
00:04:07,145 --> 00:04:08,195
Or were you just reading online?
85
00:04:08,205 --> 00:04:09,665
Like most people were in 2021?
86
00:04:09,665 --> 00:04:10,625
Yeah, zero, zero.
87
00:04:10,625 --> 00:04:11,325
I knew zero.
88
00:04:11,355 --> 00:04:16,125
I knew of the church, the the church
is church of the resurrection is pretty
89
00:04:16,155 --> 00:04:18,965
well known among Anglicans in our state.
90
00:04:19,015 --> 00:04:21,835
, it's not necessarily the mega
church, but it's like a pretty large
91
00:04:21,835 --> 00:04:24,105
Anglican church and there's not
a lot of large Anglican churches.
92
00:04:25,215 --> 00:04:25,455
Chris.
93
00:04:25,455 --> 00:04:27,545
So you mentioned this in the podcast that.
94
00:04:27,855 --> 00:04:32,385
Human beings like to listen to drama,
these big, kind of meaty, like,
95
00:04:32,645 --> 00:04:34,225
true crime stories are a big deal.
96
00:04:34,225 --> 00:04:37,015
You mentioned Shakespeare
telling lots of tragedies.
97
00:04:38,285 --> 00:04:39,205
Abuse is everywhere.
98
00:04:39,205 --> 00:04:42,025
It's in families, it's in businesses.
99
00:04:42,315 --> 00:04:45,035
What's the difference between
all of that and abuse in,
100
00:04:45,165 --> 00:04:46,915
specifically, a church setting?
101
00:04:46,925 --> 00:04:47,965
Is there a difference?
102
00:04:49,085 --> 00:04:51,445
Oh, you know, I don't know.
103
00:04:51,445 --> 00:04:57,475
I think maybe the difference is
the way that it's handled when the
104
00:04:57,475 --> 00:05:01,915
conversation comes up and then this
kind of in some senses leads to
105
00:05:02,490 --> 00:05:10,230
Myself in my own story, because maybe
it's very similar to any type of
106
00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:12,710
culture.
107
00:05:12,710 --> 00:05:14,320
I think of like a police culture.
108
00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:15,660
I think of military culture.
109
00:05:15,700 --> 00:05:19,080
Maybe somebody else can chime in
here where there's a, there is
110
00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,050
an an assumed set of allegiance.
111
00:05:21,550 --> 00:05:24,970
And so the clergy very much
have to fall in line with.
112
00:05:25,475 --> 00:05:26,365
with what is happening.
113
00:05:26,365 --> 00:05:30,005
And so this is why you haven't seen
very many other priests speaking
114
00:05:30,005 --> 00:05:32,625
out, because it gets tamped down.
115
00:05:32,815 --> 00:05:34,865
You're going against the brotherhood.
116
00:05:35,235 --> 00:05:40,885
And then that kind of spreads out into
how a congregation honors their leaders.
117
00:05:40,985 --> 00:05:45,315
And this is really conflicting because
Hey, I want to live in a world where
118
00:05:45,315 --> 00:05:46,785
I want to honor my leaders too.
119
00:05:47,425 --> 00:05:50,455
And, but what do we do when there's
a split, when there's some kind
120
00:05:50,455 --> 00:05:53,165
of oh, things are cracking here.
121
00:05:53,185 --> 00:05:54,225
And how do we handle this?
122
00:05:54,475 --> 00:05:59,645
Am I being a rebellious, am I
stirring up a horrible contentious
123
00:05:59,645 --> 00:06:04,085
spirit in my community and ruining
everything by addressing abuse?
124
00:06:04,385 --> 00:06:10,835
And so, We all tend to feel like we
are going against the whole world that
125
00:06:10,835 --> 00:06:14,845
is around us, as if the abuse itself
wasn't doing that in the first place.
126
00:06:15,555 --> 00:06:18,765
I want to chime in just on that, because
I feel like the church is supposed
127
00:06:18,775 --> 00:06:21,545
to, in theory, teach about Jesus.
128
00:06:21,715 --> 00:06:23,565
Jesus never said abuse people.
129
00:06:23,615 --> 00:06:28,100
Is this sense that The church is doing so
much good that, hey, you keep, we're going
130
00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:32,010
to silence your tiny one story of abuse
because we're, because the greater good
131
00:06:32,010 --> 00:06:36,600
of all that we're doing is worth more than
your story of one person being abused.
132
00:06:37,370 --> 00:06:37,950
That's great.
133
00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:39,670
I have spent, that's a great question.
134
00:06:39,980 --> 00:06:43,690
I've spent a lot of hours
reading people's stories.
135
00:06:43,740 --> 00:06:48,285
And I'm working on a story right now with
a woman who worked with this diocese.
136
00:06:48,715 --> 00:06:50,105
Which is the grouping of churches.
137
00:06:50,545 --> 00:06:52,925
And I don't want to say who she
is right now, but her story is
138
00:06:52,925 --> 00:06:54,055
going to come out in a few weeks.
139
00:06:54,665 --> 00:07:01,035
And I think it's a whole, a lot of
people lost in this swirl of yes, we
140
00:07:01,035 --> 00:07:06,175
are doing God's work and speaking about
this in certain ways are really, really
141
00:07:06,175 --> 00:07:07,975
addressing it will ruin that work.
142
00:07:08,595 --> 00:07:12,705
I've read so many emails where it's
really conflicting because it's not always
143
00:07:12,705 --> 00:07:14,615
people just treating others awfully.
144
00:07:15,015 --> 00:07:17,755
There's a way of pushing
people to the side.
145
00:07:18,485 --> 00:07:20,525
And saying, yeah, we're not
going to go that direction.
146
00:07:20,945 --> 00:07:25,995
And then the victim or the survivor
or the advocate, they get silenced.
147
00:07:26,635 --> 00:07:29,725
And then they're like, Oh, I guess
I was working with these people,
148
00:07:30,085 --> 00:07:31,525
but now I'm seen as a threat.
149
00:07:31,845 --> 00:07:34,885
And then eventually, and maybe
this is how online culture works.
150
00:07:35,105 --> 00:07:37,935
Then there are people like
this happened with Joanna.
151
00:07:38,305 --> 00:07:43,145
She's not a Christian, and I
don't know about you guys, but
152
00:07:43,145 --> 00:07:44,615
I know a few non Christians.
153
00:07:45,985 --> 00:07:50,175
And I wouldn't speak about Joanna
publicly the way that the people
154
00:07:50,175 --> 00:07:51,815
in this church spoke about her.
155
00:07:52,095 --> 00:07:53,745
Because I, these are people that I love.
156
00:07:53,755 --> 00:07:56,895
These are, like, one of my best friends
in the world is no longer a Christian.
157
00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,270
And we talk, five times a week
or, you know, text back and forth.
158
00:08:00,650 --> 00:08:02,620
I'm like, who cares if
she's not a Christian?
159
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,180
She's telling us she's been abused.
160
00:08:04,550 --> 00:08:06,560
Larry might not be a
Christian anymore, Chris.
161
00:08:06,570 --> 00:08:08,870
So we're, should I keep talking to him?
162
00:08:08,870 --> 00:08:09,380
Is it okay?
163
00:08:10,130 --> 00:08:12,220
I feel like as a priest, you
might want to talk to him.
164
00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,160
You kind of touched on this
a little bit on this idea.
165
00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:16,080
Now I was raised Catholic.
166
00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:16,670
So it was like.
167
00:08:16,900 --> 00:08:19,090
There's very much this is the
voice of God in front of me.
168
00:08:19,090 --> 00:08:21,680
The priest is the voice of
God, but this is happening.
169
00:08:21,690 --> 00:08:23,710
This is not just happening
in the Catholic church.
170
00:08:24,190 --> 00:08:25,480
It's happening in the Anglican church.
171
00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,280
It's happening in the SBC, the
Southern Baptist convention.
172
00:08:28,490 --> 00:08:31,890
It's happening in churches all
across America and the world.
173
00:08:32,740 --> 00:08:33,040
Yeah.
174
00:08:33,490 --> 00:08:36,650
When you talk about this, one of
the things that makes me pound my
175
00:08:36,950 --> 00:08:40,910
Dashboard, I literally got choked up
when I was hearing Joanna's story.
176
00:08:40,950 --> 00:08:45,020
And again, your episode seven, the woman
that Goewey that just talked about I
177
00:08:45,020 --> 00:08:48,760
was like, Oh my, how can you not hear
these people and feel for them as a
178
00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,530
Christian or just as a human being?
179
00:08:50,730 --> 00:08:52,770
So my question is, why
does this keep happening?
180
00:08:56,510 --> 00:08:57,060
Yeah.
181
00:08:57,530 --> 00:08:58,390
I thought about that.
182
00:08:58,830 --> 00:09:03,360
And when we're recording this, it's
the day after a presidential debate.
183
00:09:03,610 --> 00:09:04,060
Yes.
184
00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:04,730
And.
185
00:09:05,815 --> 00:09:11,925
One of the main approaches to any
kind of political campaign is fear.
186
00:09:12,895 --> 00:09:13,635
I guess it's worth noting.
187
00:09:13,685 --> 00:09:17,595
I had a priest I sent, well, there's
some things that I haven't actually
188
00:09:18,145 --> 00:09:19,445
necessarily talked about yet.
189
00:09:19,455 --> 00:09:24,925
And I'm sorting through what to talk
about, but I sent my bishop's letter to
190
00:09:24,925 --> 00:09:28,365
somebody and then, and I had them look
over my bishop sent me a letter to stop.
191
00:09:28,795 --> 00:09:33,995
To pause the podcast and this
priest, he responded back.
192
00:09:33,995 --> 00:09:36,425
He said, I sense a lot of fear.
193
00:09:36,875 --> 00:09:38,385
I sense a lot of fear in this letter.
194
00:09:39,325 --> 00:09:44,085
And I guess maybe it's just worth taking
stock of what we're all potentially
195
00:09:44,085 --> 00:09:45,995
capable of silencing somebody else.
196
00:09:46,755 --> 00:09:47,365
I will say this.
197
00:09:47,365 --> 00:09:50,325
I guess I came on and I thinking,
what am I going to talk about today?
198
00:09:51,095 --> 00:09:56,905
One of my big regrets about all this,
I don't know about regrets, or it's
199
00:09:56,905 --> 00:10:01,555
one of my big conflicts, is I had
another meeting with my bishop in July,
200
00:10:01,985 --> 00:10:06,055
and there was another priest there,
and there were other priests in this
201
00:10:06,085 --> 00:10:13,655
meeting, and the, he said, now, none of
this is gonna end up on Twitter, right?
202
00:10:13,755 --> 00:10:14,925
We, can we agree on that?
203
00:10:15,615 --> 00:10:21,800
And I had spent an hour being barraged
with Questions and confronted with my own
204
00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:26,350
actions and all this stuff and trying to
go back and forth and reaching clarity.
205
00:10:27,020 --> 00:10:29,700
And in the moment I said, Oh yeah, sure.
206
00:10:29,700 --> 00:10:30,810
Of course, of course.
207
00:10:31,470 --> 00:10:32,590
And I regret that.
208
00:10:32,590 --> 00:10:37,760
I think because the assumption
of that meeting and it was told
209
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,770
to me before and afterwards was
this is a pastoral meeting, right?
210
00:10:42,190 --> 00:10:44,110
And it didn't feel like
a pastoral meeting.
211
00:10:44,785 --> 00:10:50,315
And so I'm sitting here now
today questioning, Oh, if I say
212
00:10:50,315 --> 00:10:52,255
this, am I going to get sued?
213
00:10:52,995 --> 00:10:54,995
Am I going to lose all of my community?
214
00:10:54,995 --> 00:10:55,755
My friends.
215
00:10:56,805 --> 00:10:58,905
So when you ask like, why
does this keep happening?
216
00:10:58,945 --> 00:11:01,155
I think it's, it's
really easy to be afraid.
217
00:11:01,705 --> 00:11:06,705
Even for us, if we're just a local church
goer, like it's just easier to shut up.
218
00:11:07,295 --> 00:11:10,865
And to allow it to happen now the
greater thing is and there's a new
219
00:11:10,865 --> 00:11:14,095
one this week or in the past Week
there's this it's called morning star.
220
00:11:14,095 --> 00:11:15,315
Have you heard of morning star there?
221
00:11:15,535 --> 00:11:19,335
There's this kind of prophetic guy
named rick joiner and there's another
222
00:11:19,335 --> 00:11:23,305
scandal that's brewed i'm scared
of prophetic guys But yes, yeah.
223
00:11:23,305 --> 00:11:23,825
Oh, it's funny.
224
00:11:23,855 --> 00:11:26,675
I grew up in the the assemblies
of god Hey, wait a minute.
225
00:11:26,705 --> 00:11:27,225
Did you go to this?
226
00:11:27,225 --> 00:11:29,455
Did you go to the same snake
charming church as brandon?
227
00:11:31,435 --> 00:11:32,375
We've been there, done that.
228
00:11:33,655 --> 00:11:33,805
Yeah.
229
00:11:33,805 --> 00:11:34,015
Okay.
230
00:11:34,095 --> 00:11:35,225
Did you actually go to one of those?
231
00:11:35,235 --> 00:11:37,145
My mom took us from a Catholic church.
232
00:11:37,145 --> 00:11:38,165
So imagine this Chris.
233
00:11:38,555 --> 00:11:42,145
To from a catholic church to an aog
church for three years And it was
234
00:11:42,385 --> 00:11:46,355
literally one of the most scarring
experiences of my entire life personally
235
00:11:46,725 --> 00:11:51,105
mentally and spiritually But well
brandon, that's interesting I grew up
236
00:11:51,105 --> 00:11:55,565
catholic as well until I was like six
and then assemblies of god until I was
237
00:11:55,565 --> 00:12:00,415
an adult nice Yeah, we need to do our
own podcast on that conversion crest.
238
00:12:00,415 --> 00:12:01,375
We'll just do that show.
239
00:12:01,535 --> 00:12:02,075
There we go.
240
00:12:02,135 --> 00:12:07,180
I mean There's some interesting stories I
would say my church was not in that sense.
241
00:12:07,180 --> 00:12:07,750
Crazy.
242
00:12:07,930 --> 00:12:09,340
There was prophetic things.
243
00:12:09,810 --> 00:12:13,890
The, I guess the point that I wanna
bring up is why, and it's a question
244
00:12:13,890 --> 00:12:20,220
maybe back to all of us, is Yeah, why
is sexual abuse, why is manipulation
245
00:12:20,220 --> 00:12:22,620
so rampant amongst church leaders?
246
00:12:22,625 --> 00:12:25,140
This is Mm-Hmm, . This to me is
something that's really disturbing.
247
00:12:25,610 --> 00:12:29,190
Along those lines the main thing
that I got out of your podcast.
248
00:12:30,780 --> 00:12:31,710
It could be religion.
249
00:12:31,710 --> 00:12:32,420
It could be whatever.
250
00:12:32,420 --> 00:12:36,900
When someone's saying, don't talk
about this, be silent on this, whether
251
00:12:36,900 --> 00:12:41,200
it's in a relationship, whether it's
theology, whatever it is, if someone's
252
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,510
like, Hey, don't talk about this,
then they're trying to cover it up.
253
00:12:46,490 --> 00:12:49,970
And I don't like, you're supposed
to have close, intimate friends and
254
00:12:49,970 --> 00:12:51,730
community to talk about everything.
255
00:12:51,770 --> 00:12:53,950
Like your bad thoughts,
your good thoughts.
256
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,560
And some, once someone's telling you
to be silent, that's what it's wrong.
257
00:12:58,150 --> 00:13:00,710
That's what, whatever that is
in life, that's what's wrong.
258
00:13:01,865 --> 00:13:03,985
Well, thanks for
listening to today's show.
259
00:13:04,255 --> 00:13:05,385
This is a first for us.
260
00:13:05,385 --> 00:13:09,735
We have never done a two part show
before, but we knew that this was going
261
00:13:09,735 --> 00:13:13,165
to be a long show and we think it's a
really important show and we're really
262
00:13:13,165 --> 00:13:14,575
grateful that Chris would come on.
263
00:13:14,725 --> 00:13:18,325
We're going to release this
first part one episode today.
264
00:13:18,505 --> 00:13:22,015
Remember to find Chris's podcast,
The Wall of Silence, you'll find it
265
00:13:22,035 --> 00:13:23,785
anywhere where you find podcasts.
266
00:13:24,205 --> 00:13:26,975
What the work he's doing is really,
really important and we're really
267
00:13:26,975 --> 00:13:28,625
grateful that you would come on today.
268
00:13:28,625 --> 00:13:28,705
Take care.
269
00:13:28,845 --> 00:13:31,365
We look forward to being with you
next week and we hope that you're
270
00:13:31,365 --> 00:13:34,985
looking forward to hearing part
two of the Chris Marchand and
271
00:13:34,985 --> 00:13:36,255
the Wall of Silence interview.
