Storytelling, Dramaturgy & Criticism With Aisha Josiah

1
00:00:04,019 --> 00:00:09,929
Robert Kuang: Welcome to side by side, a
podcast where I Robert Kuang take you
2
00:00:09,929 --> 00:00:15,389
inside conversations with artists,
creatives, healers and warriors taking the
3
00:00:15,389 --> 00:00:21,539
charge in their transformational story.
Today's guest is multidisciplinary writer,
4
00:00:21,569 --> 00:00:27,509
producer and dramaturg. Aisha Josiah from
London. She is an award winning playwright
5
00:00:27,629 --> 00:00:32,459
and screenwriter who has also written for
publications such as media diversified,
6
00:00:32,609 --> 00:00:37,589
the upcoming and mouth London. She has
served as the editor of the independent
7
00:00:37,589 --> 00:00:44,159
theater blog fringe biscuit Since 2014 in
this conversation, we dive inside Aysha,
8
00:00:44,189 --> 00:00:48,689
nomadic and multicultural upbringing, her
passion for exploring post colonial
9
00:00:48,689 --> 00:00:55,019
narratives and the art of dramaturgy and
criticism. You can find more side by side
10
00:00:55,019 --> 00:01:01,259
episodes at sidebyside
podcast.podbean.com, and if you're working
11
00:01:01,259 --> 00:01:05,849
on a purpose driven writing project, I've
opened up a few one on one coaching spots
12
00:01:05,879 --> 00:01:13,319
this season. You can learn more or book a
discovery call at www.RobertKuanghome.com.
13
00:01:16,289 --> 00:01:20,759
You know, when we were at NYU, both of us,
I don't know how much we had time to,
14
00:01:20,759 --> 00:01:25,259
like, actually talk to each other and hold
conversations. But, you know, I'm talking
15
00:01:25,259 --> 00:01:30,539
with Ayesha today, and we were formerly
classmates, but it was one of those things
16
00:01:30,539 --> 00:01:35,369
we were in you were in undergrad, I was in
grad, and you were like, you're always,
17
00:01:35,399 --> 00:01:40,289
you're like, a busy bee. So I think we
just, like, never crossed paths when we
18
00:01:40,289 --> 00:01:45,269
were at school, but I'm really thrilled
that we're able to, like, catch up now,
19
00:01:45,299 --> 00:01:48,839
you know, years later. So thank you for
saying yes to this. Aisha,
20
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:53,670
Aisha Josiah: this was this. I mean,
absolutely. And, yeah, I feel the busy bee
21
00:01:53,670 --> 00:02:00,900
part has not changed. Yes, I do remember
us bumping into each other occasionally,
22
00:02:00,900 --> 00:02:05,160
and being like, Oh, hey, you're really
cool. And then invariably, being like, Oh,
23
00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:06,240
I've got three shows on. Bye.
24
00:02:07,620 --> 00:02:12,300
Robert Kuang: Right, have to write 20
pages in Friday, or whatever it is, right?
25
00:02:12,330 --> 00:02:16,080
Yeah, those were the days. But you know,
you're someone who's interesting because
26
00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:22,080
I, you know, I moved from China to New
York, and I'm now on the West Coast now,
27
00:02:22,260 --> 00:02:25,800
and you're someone who grew up like
traveling a lot. Is that correct? Yes.
28
00:02:27,010 --> 00:02:32,080
Aisha Josiah: So my my parents moved
around quite a bit when I was young. So I
29
00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:37,000
was actually born in New York, and then we
moved over to the West Coast, to
30
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:42,880
Washington for a little bit, and then when
I was about nine or so, we moved to
31
00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:48,670
London, sort of permanently. I sort of
grew up in London for like, the first half
32
00:02:48,670 --> 00:02:55,930
of my sort of childhood. When I, I guess,
left secondary school, I went to NYU. I
33
00:02:55,930 --> 00:03:01,690
still call that my childhood, but I guess
I was technically an adult, but I was, I
34
00:03:01,690 --> 00:03:10,000
was an adult in name only, yeah, and so
that kind of really had a great effect on,
35
00:03:10,030 --> 00:03:14,140
you know, the direction that my career
went in and things. And then after I did
36
00:03:14,950 --> 00:03:22,660
my bachelor's at NYU, I went back to the
UK to do a post grad in Scotland. So I've
37
00:03:22,660 --> 00:03:23,860
always gone back and forth.
38
00:03:23,980 --> 00:03:26,530
Robert Kuang: I was going to ask if you
have any Scottish heritage, because
39
00:03:26,530 --> 00:03:30,790
there's a part of you that I see is like,
I think allyship comes naturally to you in
40
00:03:30,790 --> 00:03:34,390
addition to just being your own advocate.
So like, I can see how much your
41
00:03:34,390 --> 00:03:38,770
experiences have informed you in many ways
in your work. How did traveling and seeing
42
00:03:38,770 --> 00:03:41,770
different parts of the world? Which is,
you know, some people have that
43
00:03:41,770 --> 00:03:45,130
experience. Some people don't. How do you
think that, like, actually influence the
44
00:03:45,130 --> 00:03:49,780
way you think about things, that made you
see things maybe a little differently,
45
00:03:49,780 --> 00:03:51,760
sometimes from your peers?
46
00:03:51,820 --> 00:03:55,210
Aisha Josiah: Yeah, I mean, that's a great
question. I mean, in terms of heritage, I
47
00:03:55,210 --> 00:04:00,280
do, on my mom's side, have Irish heritage,
so, okay, yeah, my mom's really into
48
00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:07,870
genealogy. And so we've worked our way
back to Lydia Vaughan in Cork, which is
49
00:04:08,110 --> 00:04:15,130
really, really interesting to me, but in
terms of traveling around, honestly, what
50
00:04:15,130 --> 00:04:20,680
I remember most about sort of when I was
younger was really desperately wanting to
51
00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:26,350
fit in. And so ironically, what happens is
that I would try and take on the accent of
52
00:04:26,350 --> 00:04:31,540
wherever I was so that no one knew that I
wasn't from there. And then at some point,
53
00:04:31,690 --> 00:04:35,050
I don't know what happened, some sort of
Freaky Friday thing where my accent would
54
00:04:35,050 --> 00:04:37,990
always be the wrong one for the place that
we were in.
55
00:04:39,340 --> 00:04:42,790
Robert Kuang: I know, like those things
where you can, you actually do hold
56
00:04:42,790 --> 00:04:47,200
multiple accents for some people, and you
can kind of switch, and that's like,
57
00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:48,460
people are like, what?
58
00:04:48,910 --> 00:04:52,360
Aisha Josiah: Yeah, and so I got to a
point when I was, like a teenager, where
59
00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:56,080
for some reason my accent would, like, lag
behind. And so it always be like, you
60
00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:03,910
know, one country too late. And so. So
that was, I mean, for me, I was very much
61
00:05:03,910 --> 00:05:06,880
an introvert, and so that was actually
quite challenging. And I went through a
62
00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:11,440
period when I was very quiet, not quite
like, officially mute, but I think I felt
63
00:05:11,470 --> 00:05:16,210
like I wasn't quite sure what accent would
come out. And so it was just kind of like,
64
00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:22,450
Oh, I feel really insecure about my voice,
and now it's just something that I quite,
65
00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,230
you know, love, and you have different
voices when you're in, you know, having
66
00:05:26,230 --> 00:05:30,070
different emotions, or when you're around
different people. And when my family and I
67
00:05:30,070 --> 00:05:34,810
get together, we we have a range of
accents just sound like a sort of mini un
68
00:05:34,810 --> 00:05:40,480
together, you know, we've been all over
the place. Yeah, it's just it, I think, in
69
00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:46,480
terms of how I write and how I approach
art, it's been very useful to have a
70
00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:53,290
grounding in different traditions and to
sort of not be, I guess, not entirely sort
71
00:05:53,290 --> 00:06:00,250
of secure in this is how things are done.
Because for me, it's always been like, Oh,
72
00:06:00,280 --> 00:06:04,960
this is how things are done over here.
There's never been like a set normal for
73
00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:10,420
me. I think that in terms of the way I
think about ideas, it's always relational.
74
00:06:10,630 --> 00:06:15,850
It's always kind of, you know, what are
the time? What is the set of circumstances
75
00:06:15,940 --> 00:06:20,830
that has led to this? Knowing that these
circumstances are, all you know,
76
00:06:20,860 --> 00:06:24,850
arbitrary. They can be changed. And, you
know, you can have a completely different
77
00:06:24,850 --> 00:06:28,480
set of events happening. That's kind of
how I think about characters. That's how I
78
00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:33,820
think about, like, you know, dramatic
situations, you know, yeah. And I found
79
00:06:33,820 --> 00:06:37,960
that, you know, I'm, I quite like, that
flexibility of thought, yeah.
80
00:06:37,990 --> 00:06:41,530
Robert Kuang: Yeah, I think for a lot of
people who have grown up, kind of moving
81
00:06:41,530 --> 00:06:44,980
around and just seeing a lot of different
parts of the world, there's a certain way
82
00:06:44,980 --> 00:06:50,020
they engage with, how they see, you know,
characteristics, behavior, and the way
83
00:06:50,020 --> 00:06:54,160
that people make meaning inside of
relationships. And just to go back to
84
00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:58,210
like, you know, the accent thing, I
remember one of some of my earliest
85
00:06:58,210 --> 00:07:02,740
memories was just like a lot of people
think, like, my way or the highway, or
86
00:07:02,740 --> 00:07:06,130
like, this is the way it's done, this the
way it's not done. But if you traverse
87
00:07:06,130 --> 00:07:09,550
across multiple cultures, like, I cannot
tell you how many times it was like,
88
00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,630
totally fine in one circumstance and
another one is like, Oh, you're being rude
89
00:07:13,630 --> 00:07:17,290
right now. Like, slurping food, and I was
like, That's a compliment where I'm from,
90
00:07:17,530 --> 00:07:23,440
and et cetera, et cetera. And just like
things you were not intending to do and
91
00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:28,090
you just didn't understand the context. I
think those moments really informed a lot
92
00:07:28,090 --> 00:07:32,500
of, yeah, probably a lot of why I wanted
to write to kind of like, bring up these
93
00:07:32,500 --> 00:07:36,580
things of like, oh yeah, this is kind of
uncomfortable. And like, I don't think
94
00:07:36,580 --> 00:07:40,240
anyone else picked up on it, and things
like that, right? So I always was like,
95
00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:44,590
perspectives are always changing, rather
than being that rigidity in my upbringing.
96
00:07:44,860 --> 00:07:47,950
Aisha Josiah: It's so funny, I think,
particularly in this, like political
97
00:07:47,950 --> 00:07:53,470
climate, where you have people who sort of
seem nostalgic for, like, a certain type
98
00:07:53,470 --> 00:07:58,600
of past, or, you know, the sad things used
to be. And I find that line of thinking so
99
00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,530
interesting, because, you know, as someone
who's traveled around, I've never had a
100
00:08:02,530 --> 00:08:08,440
sense that this place belonged to me, and
I was sort of guaranteed for it to like
101
00:08:08,500 --> 00:08:12,550
and feel a certain way, you know. So
that's an interesting thought. That's kind
102
00:08:12,550 --> 00:08:18,340
of like, Wow, you really feel like this
place is yours, you know. But I think
103
00:08:18,340 --> 00:08:25,420
also, as a visitor to a place you are so
aware of what makes it unique in a way
104
00:08:25,420 --> 00:08:30,580
that I think, yeah, many people sort of
overlook. So I know, when I, when I, you
105
00:08:30,580 --> 00:08:36,430
know, first went to London, you would hear
a lot of people say, Well, I mean, English
106
00:08:36,430 --> 00:08:40,300
people don't have like, culture, you know.
And I'm like, What are you talking about?
107
00:08:40,300 --> 00:08:45,820
Like, you know, I can, I can recognize,
like, this is a person from England, like,
108
00:08:46,270 --> 00:08:49,660
immediately in a conversation, right?
Because there are so many different things
109
00:08:49,660 --> 00:08:53,800
that identify you and you know. But when
you know, at school, you would have these
110
00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:58,090
sort of, like, you know, cultural days
where everyone's coming in with their
111
00:08:58,090 --> 00:09:01,960
like, you know, special clothes and stuff.
And people would say, I just, I just have
112
00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:07,210
a football kit. We don't have anything.
And you're like, No, you don't see it
113
00:09:07,210 --> 00:09:12,640
because you're in it, right? But if you're
not in it, then, of course, you see it.
114
00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:17,650
It's there. It's just as beautiful as the
next one. But it's, I find that something,
115
00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:20,830
you know, I see that in the States a lot
as well. You know, where it's kind of like
116
00:09:20,860 --> 00:09:25,630
what it means to be American is, you know,
litigated. And there's this
117
00:09:25,690 --> 00:09:26,650
Robert Kuang: over and over again.
118
00:09:26,650 --> 00:09:31,450
Aisha Josiah: Yeah, exactly. And there's
this idea that, like, the norm is kind of
119
00:09:31,450 --> 00:09:37,600
an absence of something, you know, and
that's completely just bizarre to me. It's
120
00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,060
so rich and full of its own thing, you
know.
121
00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:45,190
Robert Kuang: I've also heard that London
and New York are share similarities, or
122
00:09:45,190 --> 00:09:48,670
like, if people have gone to both, there
are similar vibes, like the things that
123
00:09:48,670 --> 00:09:53,830
make them kind of challenging for people,
but also kind of the big city opportunity
124
00:09:53,860 --> 00:09:58,180
vibe, surrounded by people who are trying
to find opportunity. Do you find that to
125
00:09:58,180 --> 00:09:58,630
be true?
126
00:09:58,930 --> 00:10:02,890
Aisha Josiah: I think London and New York.
Are very similar in different ways. I
127
00:10:02,890 --> 00:10:09,880
would say New York definitely has more of
a audacious, ambitious kind of atmosphere
128
00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,720
to it. I think I feel it as soon as I, you
know, come off the plane. Everyone,
129
00:10:14,260 --> 00:10:20,500
everyone's like, you know, everyone's
stressed. I remember I once told an ex
130
00:10:20,500 --> 00:10:23,290
partner of mine, like, you know, we were
visiting, we were visiting New York for
131
00:10:23,290 --> 00:10:27,580
the first time, and he said three things
will happen, without fail. And I can't,
132
00:10:27,730 --> 00:10:31,060
like, I don't know why, but this is what
will happen. You will smell something very
133
00:10:31,060 --> 00:10:36,070
bad. What it is, we don't know. We don't
care to know. You will hear someone curse
134
00:10:36,070 --> 00:10:41,500
for no apparent reason, very close to you,
and something will be on fire again. I
135
00:10:41,500 --> 00:10:47,080
don't know why. It will be on fire. It
will just be on fire. And we touched down
136
00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:51,580
at JFK, and within like five minutes of
leaving the airport, all three had been
137
00:10:51,580 --> 00:10:58,180
like, had come true. And I was like, Yeah,
I like that. I know this city that you
138
00:10:58,180 --> 00:11:02,560
know, it feels like, Yep, we're back.
Yeah, you know, but I think part of that
139
00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:10,720
sort of chaotic energy is what makes it
such a lovely crucible for work, because
140
00:11:10,750 --> 00:11:15,070
there isn't this sort of downtime. There's
always something to wrestle with, and it
141
00:11:15,070 --> 00:11:19,780
can be overwhelming. I mean, I'm based in
Edinburgh now, partly because I like
142
00:11:19,780 --> 00:11:25,090
having the option of opting out of that
sort of 24/7 culture, because I immerse
143
00:11:25,090 --> 00:11:28,660
myself in it so much that eventually I
have to, sort of like parent myself and be
144
00:11:28,660 --> 00:11:32,050
like, You know what? I think you're you're
tired, and you're exhausted, and you need
145
00:11:32,050 --> 00:11:34,810
to leave and go and see trees and thing,
146
00:11:37,460 --> 00:11:38,900
yeah, or something. You know,
147
00:11:40,460 --> 00:11:43,000
Robert Kuang: time to go look at the
Moors, or go upstate New York or
148
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:43,480
something,
149
00:11:44,710 --> 00:11:49,210
Aisha Josiah: because otherwise the brain
doesn't switch off. And you know, it's,
150
00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:54,880
it's sort of a double edged sword in that,
in that sense, I love it, but, you know,
151
00:11:54,910 --> 00:12:00,160
for my own well being, I think those
periods of absence are necessary. Yeah, in
152
00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:07,210
terms of London, I would say a big
difference for me is that what we would
153
00:12:07,210 --> 00:12:13,030
consider, I think, in New York sometimes,
I think it feels like it's considered,
154
00:12:13,030 --> 00:12:17,530
sort of like high culture, in a way that
is a little uncomfortable for me, things
155
00:12:17,530 --> 00:12:20,620
like going to the theater, going to The
museums, having intellectual sort of
156
00:12:20,620 --> 00:12:22,090
conversations and stuff.
157
00:12:23,980 --> 00:12:25,750
Robert Kuang: oh, it's actually seen as
more, like, everyday
158
00:12:25,750 --> 00:12:28,780
Aisha Josiah: Exactly, a lot more
grounded, you know, like, it's not, it's
159
00:12:28,780 --> 00:12:32,860
not a going to a gallery is not just for a
date, you know. I mean, going to a gallery
160
00:12:32,860 --> 00:12:37,180
is like, you know, because you actually
want to go and see what's going on and
161
00:12:37,180 --> 00:12:40,780
keep up with it and stuff. And not in a
way that's kind of like, I'm going to tell
162
00:12:40,780 --> 00:12:44,140
everyone else that I'm doing this too. But
just, you know, you know, because it's
163
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:49,240
infused, I would say Paris is even more
so, okay, yeah, Paris is even more in that
164
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:53,890
direction. But London, I think one of the
things that I cherish about it is that
165
00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:58,300
theater, for example, still feels very
accessible. We are moving towards the
166
00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:03,040
Broadway model of ridiculous ticket prices
and stuff. But this is something new for
167
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:10,060
London, and hopefully something that
doesn't take off too well. I think that is
168
00:13:10,090 --> 00:13:17,590
something that they share, in a way, but I
think in some ways, I feel like American
169
00:13:17,590 --> 00:13:23,350
culture and New York culture can feel a
little a little stratified, you know, some
170
00:13:23,350 --> 00:13:25,000
people do this, some people do that
171
00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,740
Robert Kuang: yeah, people are sorted,
yeah, right, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
172
00:13:30,010 --> 00:13:34,120
yeah. I can. I can totally see that. And
I've also heard from other artists who've
173
00:13:34,570 --> 00:13:38,050
particularly worked in Europe, throughout
Europe, they're like, Oh, the arts and
174
00:13:38,050 --> 00:13:43,810
culture scene is seen and perceived very
differently. It's a lot more normal. It's
175
00:13:43,810 --> 00:13:49,180
a lot more like part of the everyday
comfort for communities, in a way that
176
00:13:49,180 --> 00:13:53,230
here it's like, a little more specialized,
or like, it's like, it's for artists to
177
00:13:53,230 --> 00:13:55,000
go. And I'm like, no anyone can.
178
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,380
Aisha Josiah: anyone can go, Yeah, I think
it's, you know, the same sort of feeling
179
00:13:59,380 --> 00:14:06,310
of people still dressing up to go out to
Broadway, you know. And my, my real goal,
180
00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:09,970
I think if I, if I was a theater guard or
something, would be, like, you can go to
181
00:14:09,970 --> 00:14:15,400
Broadway in your PJs, you know, like, it's
it, this is a conversation. And in fact,
182
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,270
like, I don't want the tickets to be, you
know, $500 because I want you to come and
183
00:14:19,270 --> 00:14:23,230
see this show like five or six times so
that you can really have a conversation
184
00:14:23,260 --> 00:14:29,350
with it, right? Do you agree with it? Do
you disagree? I mean, one of my, one of my
185
00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:33,010
absolute fantasies, would be like, we go
back to, like the 1800's or something, and
186
00:14:33,220 --> 00:14:37,000
if you don't like it, you tear up the
seats and you know, like, shame on you
187
00:14:38,419 --> 00:14:40,099
Robert Kuang: bring back, like, grunge
theater.
188
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,980
Aisha Josiah: How dare you suggest that
Nora might leave her husband, like, let me
189
00:14:44,980 --> 00:14:47,440
just go and destroy this theater a little
bit, because I'm so
190
00:14:50,020 --> 00:14:52,600
Robert Kuang: Really get that immersed audience.
191
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,510
Aisha Josiah: You know, they've been
listening. You know.
192
00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:59,290
Robert Kuang: You know what we struggle
with so much disengagement. But partially,
193
00:14:59,290 --> 00:15:03,130
it's kind of like. Like, you know, the way
we think of sharing art and offering it as
194
00:15:03,130 --> 00:15:08,320
well. I think that's very much true. And
you know, you're a writer, artist, a
195
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:13,690
producer, editor, dramaturg. Do you
remember when you first, um, started
196
00:15:13,690 --> 00:15:14,170
writing?
197
00:15:14,860 --> 00:15:22,210
Aisha Josiah: Oh, that's a great question.
So I kind of because I actually started
198
00:15:22,210 --> 00:15:27,940
off figure skating. I started figure
skating when I was about five, and so that
199
00:15:27,940 --> 00:15:34,030
was my, my first love. And you know, I
kept that up until I was about 17, and
200
00:15:34,810 --> 00:15:38,350
when I stopped figure skating, because I
made a conscious choice, you know, I was
201
00:15:38,350 --> 00:15:43,300
getting to the time of, like, applying for
universities. And I sort of, you know,
202
00:15:43,570 --> 00:15:47,260
really, sort of sat myself down and was
like, Well, you could sort of pursue this
203
00:15:47,260 --> 00:15:52,150
thing, but there, to my mind, there were
so many potential pitfalls. You know, you
204
00:15:52,150 --> 00:15:57,010
break your leg, you're out for a season.
You know, you you have a career ending
205
00:15:57,010 --> 00:16:04,540
injury. At the time, I was part of a
synchronized skating team. And so, yeah,
206
00:16:05,230 --> 00:16:09,040
always, you know, very extensive
scheduling. And you know, you're going all
207
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:15,760
around, yeah, and stuff. Loved it, but
also there's no time to sort of, you know,
208
00:16:15,790 --> 00:16:19,750
engage in, like going to university and
things like that. That's something that
209
00:16:19,750 --> 00:16:24,940
you have to choose one or the other. And
so I said, like, Well, I think I want to
210
00:16:24,940 --> 00:16:29,650
go to uni. I think I want to, you know,
have a, not quite a backup plan, but just
211
00:16:29,650 --> 00:16:34,810
feel like I'm skilled in other things.
When that, when that sort of, like,
212
00:16:34,810 --> 00:16:40,540
decision was made, I realized I don't know
what I do outside of figure skating. Like,
213
00:16:40,540 --> 00:16:46,870
what do I do? And so I started writing,
doing a bit of writing, and I also got
214
00:16:46,870 --> 00:16:52,600
into just taking on different internships.
Yeah, you know, I had discovered I was, I
215
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:58,480
was quite the annoying rebel in that I
rebelled at school, but I also, like, made
216
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,660
sure I had good grades. You know, there
was, like, I don't want to go to class,
217
00:17:01,660 --> 00:17:04,300
but also I will pass this test, because I
feel like it's kind of important.
218
00:17:05,230 --> 00:17:09,670
Robert Kuang: She said, I don't always
accept authority, but not because I'm
219
00:17:09,670 --> 00:17:11,800
dumb. Yes, I am very smart. And
220
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,220
Aisha Josiah: so I was like, the absolute
worst person, because they're like, what
221
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,880
you know, if you don't go to class, this
is what will happen. I was like, Well, I
222
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:25,720
don't know if that's true, because I seem
to be doing fine, actually, not going. So
223
00:17:26,020 --> 00:17:30,010
when I cut class, when I would sort of
just go and do my own thing I was going to
224
00:17:30,010 --> 00:17:33,280
do, like internships, like the BBC and
stuff like, it really was like, that's the
225
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,140
worst kind of, like, rebellious.
226
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:37,540
Robert Kuang: That's such a distinct
personality
227
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,490
Aisha Josiah: I can't go to class today
because I'm actually, you know, doing, you
228
00:17:42,490 --> 00:17:46,300
know, interviews for internships,
actually. So, you know, I think that
229
00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:47,260
that's just more important.
230
00:17:47,290 --> 00:17:49,870
Robert Kuang: During that time you had
already, kind of, like, stopped focusing
231
00:17:49,870 --> 00:17:51,430
on synchronized skating. Yeah, yeah.
232
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:57,040
Aisha Josiah: Like, I so, to put in
perspective, for the best part of like, 10
233
00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:02,820
years or so, I would wake up at 4am go,
you know, skating, go to school, go
234
00:18:02,820 --> 00:18:07,740
skating, do my homework, go to sleep kind
of thing. And that was, you know, it's a
235
00:18:07,740 --> 00:18:13,440
full time job, even though it's a hobby,
yeah. And, you know, competing in that
236
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:18,360
sort of environment, you kind of need to
do that once you decide you're not
237
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:22,040
competing. I mean, that's like, a good
3040, hour chunk of the week that's like,
238
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,300
been opened up to you. And so I just found
myself really just at a loss. Like, what
239
00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:30,920
do you do with all this time, you know?
And it was, it was quite difficult, to be
240
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:37,460
honest. I, you know, you just sort of
like, I felt very lost. And so I think I
241
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:43,000
just counted that eventually with jumping
into things and just saying yes to
242
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,680
different opportunities. And so that got
me into film and TV. That got me into
243
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,880
theater. You know, I ended up joining the
young friends of the Almeida, which was a
244
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:58,120
lovely theater group that had internships
for writing and directing and things. And
245
00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:02,340
it was associated with the Almeida theater
that was run by Michael Attenborough at
246
00:19:02,340 --> 00:19:07,080
the time, he was just lovely, David
Attenborough's brother, I believe brother,
247
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,640
okay. I was like, Wait, yes, of the
attenboroughs, yeah, I think Brother or
248
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:17,580
uncle. I was like, That Attenborough,
exactly. And so just really, really like,
249
00:19:17,580 --> 00:19:23,180
great program. Yeah. You know, it was at a
time when there was a lot of funding, you
250
00:19:23,180 --> 00:19:26,360
know, there was a labor government, and
they were really investing in communities
251
00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:29,780
and stuff. So we had things like summer
University and stuff. It was, it was
252
00:19:29,780 --> 00:19:35,540
lovely. And through that, I was able to
sort of get my first look at the Edinburgh
253
00:19:35,540 --> 00:19:43,780
Fringe. I went up as sort of a production
assistant, and I got my my internships,
254
00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:50,140
channel four and the BBC. And, you know,
that introduced me to screenwriting, and
255
00:19:50,140 --> 00:19:58,480
then that enabled me to sort of write a
script that got picked up for, oh my gosh,
256
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,660
what was it? The North London Film. Fund,
North London Film fund award, and that
257
00:20:03,660 --> 00:20:08,520
eventually got me into NYU. So it was
just, yeah, it was kind of one of these
258
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:14,520
things that was very round about. And the
irony is that both of my parents had gone
259
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:20,160
to and worked at NYU in various
capacities, and they always joked that it
260
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,720
would have been much cheaper if I had,
like, just made it known that I wanted to
261
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,680
go to NYU, because then they just kept
some sort of connection there or
262
00:20:27,740 --> 00:20:28,460
something.
263
00:20:29,110 --> 00:20:31,810
Robert Kuang: Are your parents, like,
academic types?
264
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,560
Aisha Josiah: Not really. My mom's a
teacher, and my dad works for the Met
265
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:44,500
Police and so, yeah, it's just to be fair,
my mom's parents are both artists, and
266
00:20:45,070 --> 00:20:50,890
they, you know, so there's, there's that
kind of history there my dad's side, I
267
00:20:50,890 --> 00:20:55,180
would say they're more sort of
entrepreneurs like bakery and my dad is
268
00:20:55,180 --> 00:21:01,060
originally from Antigua, so yeah, his his
family sort of moved half to London and
269
00:21:01,060 --> 00:21:03,430
half to New York.
270
00:21:03,540 --> 00:21:08,580
Robert Kuang: Okay, so that's how that
happened. Roots, okay, yeah. I mean, to
271
00:21:08,580 --> 00:21:12,810
say it was an interesting life would be an
understatement. But a lot of it was just
272
00:21:12,810 --> 00:21:15,930
also out of your own, like, internal
engine. You know?
273
00:21:15,930 --> 00:21:19,920
Aisha Josiah: Exactly, I think if there's
anything that I've I've gotten, I think in
274
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,310
hindsight, you know, I see that I've
gotten from my parents is just a sort of
275
00:21:23,310 --> 00:21:27,660
sense of, like, quiet adventure, because
they were both quite young when they
276
00:21:27,660 --> 00:21:31,650
decided to, you know, make these huge
moves. And I'm sure they didn't have a
277
00:21:31,650 --> 00:21:40,650
plan, you know. And so I kind of like
making big decisions, not in a sort of
278
00:21:40,650 --> 00:21:45,660
reckless way necessarily, but in a sort of
way that, you know, you have a lot of
279
00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:50,610
faith in yourself, and you say, I'm sure
that I will be able to manage whatever
280
00:21:50,610 --> 00:21:56,010
difficulties come along with this
decision. So let's go and do it and see
281
00:21:56,010 --> 00:22:02,310
what happens. And that's yeah, kind of,
you know what I like to do, just be bold
282
00:22:02,310 --> 00:22:02,730
about it.
283
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,360
Robert Kuang: Yeah, be bold about making a
decision. Exactly, yeah, which, you know,
284
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:11,130
honestly, it's very human for people to
try to avoid making these big decisions
285
00:22:11,130 --> 00:22:14,610
where there might be consequences. But,
you know, on the other side of it also
286
00:22:14,610 --> 00:22:18,780
takes, you know, the courage it took, yes,
that ultimately got you to New York and
287
00:22:18,780 --> 00:22:22,680
all these opportunities. Every one of them
was sort of like a choice that you had to
288
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:23,580
make with a little bit of
289
00:22:23,580 --> 00:22:27,480
Aisha Josiah: courage. So, yeah, it's
funny you say that because I remember,
290
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,530
shortly before coming to NYU for
undergrad, I was speaking with a friend
291
00:22:31,530 --> 00:22:37,860
who had recently gotten into, I think,
Cambridge or something, for physics, and
292
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,480
he sort of said, okay, but like, what's
your plan B, like, if it doesn't work out,
293
00:22:42,570 --> 00:22:48,240
and it really had not occurred to me that
plan B was, like, a thing, and so I was
294
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,890
kind of like, oh, well, I don't know. I
mean, this is, this is the plan as much as
295
00:22:52,890 --> 00:22:55,530
it, you know? I mean, I guess if it
doesn't work out, I'll just do something
296
00:22:55,530 --> 00:22:57,570
completely different. I don't know. Like,
297
00:22:58,920 --> 00:22:59,970
Robert Kuang: go back to synchronized
298
00:23:01,530 --> 00:23:05,220
Aisha Josiah: to me, I was like, I'll do
it until, you know, I've run it to its
299
00:23:05,220 --> 00:23:09,090
course and, you know, and generally, for
me, that just means I'm tired of it, you
300
00:23:09,090 --> 00:23:13,770
know, I don't want to do it anymore,
right? But it never occurred to me, like,
301
00:23:13,770 --> 00:23:18,150
you know, you get to a point of like, this
has failed. I need to have a backup plan,
302
00:23:18,180 --> 00:23:18,720
you know.
303
00:23:18,810 --> 00:23:21,810
Robert Kuang: And you don't, you don't
seem like the person to, like, suffer
304
00:23:21,810 --> 00:23:27,570
through it either. I mean, you do it
because you still it's enjoy, enjoyable to
305
00:23:27,570 --> 00:23:32,520
kind of, like, commit to something and
like, go all in, yeah, not for everyone.
306
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,310
But I think that there's, like, an
artistic spirit of, like, we'll have to
307
00:23:35,310 --> 00:23:36,960
fight for this thing. You know what I
mean?
308
00:23:37,100 --> 00:23:41,800
Aisha Josiah: I mean the way I interpret
it is, like, I call it a type of delusion.
309
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:47,740
Like, I think I'm slightly delusional,
which I'm happy to be, you know. Like, I
310
00:23:47,740 --> 00:23:53,800
think, if that is what means that I can
make decisions that are irrational to like
311
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:58,660
the the bystander looking in, but make
complete sense to me, then that's okay,
312
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:03,480
you know. And I think the people that I
admire most in this industry, and just
313
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:09,180
generally, are ones for whom they are.
What's it? They are the measure of their
314
00:24:09,180 --> 00:24:14,400
own success. They are the measure of their
own happiness. They operate outside of,
315
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,900
you know, social norms and contexts and
stuff. It doesn't mean sort of like a
316
00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:22,220
solipsistic kind of existence. I don't
think you know, like, let's just ignore
317
00:24:22,220 --> 00:24:30,320
everyone else on the planet, but I think
that running after a type of success is so
318
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:36,560
draining and unfulfilling. And at the end
of it, you sort of, what do you have? You
319
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,040
know, it feels like something that can
always be taken away. But when you are
320
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:46,000
sort of feeling like you are exactly where
you should be doing the thing that's
321
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,560
completely fulfilling to you in this
moment, there's something so nice about
322
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:55,660
not feeling like you like. What more would
I want? I don't want anything else I'm
323
00:24:55,660 --> 00:25:00,480
doing the thing, you know, right? Yeah.
And so I just try and go from. Moment to
324
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:08,760
moment like that, you know, yeah, if I
just, what more? What more could I want
325
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,840
from that? You know, maybe I, maybe I find
it easy to do that, though, because, like,
326
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:17,880
I, I'm the delusion is, like, I'm just
very optimistic and probably, like, about
327
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,660
my ideas. I'm like, yeah, what could go
wrong? Let me just go and check out this
328
00:25:20,660 --> 00:25:23,180
volcano, and you're like, oh, many things,
many.
329
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:31,280
Robert Kuang: Oh, that's so funny. Or
you're like, well, sometimes you're like,
330
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,260
I check in with people, and they're like,
Are you sure?
331
00:25:34,620 --> 00:25:38,280
Aisha Josiah: Okay, I frequently, I've
just gone on trips. I'm like, you know, my
332
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,220
mom will be like, where are you staying?
I'm like, I don't know yet. She says as
333
00:25:41,220 --> 00:25:42,270
she gets on the plane,
334
00:25:42,990 --> 00:25:49,500
Robert Kuang: right, right. Hey, I get it.
Yeah, I see that. I see that for you. And
335
00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:54,240
you also do, like your focus, and I think,
like your personal mission is very clear
336
00:25:54,570 --> 00:25:59,280
for anybody. But you also kind of can do
different types of roles depending on the
337
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:06,390
project, right? And one thing you do talk
about is dramaturgy, and I've been, sadly,
338
00:26:06,390 --> 00:26:11,700
I was once like a dramaturgical, not
hater, per se, but I was like, what is
339
00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:17,250
what is it? Right? And over the past, like
10 years or so, we've seen so many films
340
00:26:17,250 --> 00:26:21,330
and projects where it just feels like the
production itself is entirely
341
00:26:21,330 --> 00:26:26,820
transactional, and the end result doesn't
make much quite make much sense. So there
342
00:26:26,820 --> 00:26:32,340
comes a moment where I was like, Oh yeah,
there was no dramaturgical support or or
343
00:26:32,340 --> 00:26:36,330
any sort of care that goes into actually
wrapping together all the everybody's
344
00:26:36,330 --> 00:26:41,400
work, yeah, in a cohesive way. So I was
wondering, if you could talk about what
345
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,960
dramaturgy is, what that can look like
inside of like a collaboration or a
346
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,170
project, and just like your personal
experience with it.
347
00:26:49,230 --> 00:26:53,460
Aisha Josiah: Of course, I mean,
dramaturgy is such an interesting, still
348
00:26:53,460 --> 00:26:57,000
kind of nebulous thing. And maybe that's
maybe that's always a part of it. I
349
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:02,370
remember when I, you know, started my
course in dramaturgy at Glasgow
350
00:27:02,370 --> 00:27:07,230
University, really, you know, it felt like
the first semester was large. Like, what
351
00:27:07,260 --> 00:27:13,320
is dramaturgy? What is a dramaturg You
know, honestly, it never really felt like
352
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,370
there was a definitive answer. You know,
no matter how many textbooks you went
353
00:27:17,370 --> 00:27:21,660
through and like, you know, you sort of
like, start with the handbook of
354
00:27:21,660 --> 00:27:25,980
dramaturgy, the history of dramaturgy,
and, you know, the sort of German
355
00:27:25,980 --> 00:27:30,270
underpinnings of it and everything sort of
kind of makes sense, but it doesn't really
356
00:27:30,270 --> 00:27:37,110
give you a full answer. And what I enjoyed
about studying it in an academic setting
357
00:27:37,140 --> 00:27:43,080
was that it was without the pressures of
creating work to a certain time scale. So
358
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,910
you really had the indulgence of sort of
thinking about abstract concepts of
359
00:27:47,910 --> 00:27:52,500
storytelling, and what does that mean when
I got out into the real world and I'm
360
00:27:52,500 --> 00:27:56,940
like, Okay, how do I call myself a
dramaturg? Then that's kind of when I felt
361
00:27:56,940 --> 00:28:03,390
like I have to define it for myself. And
for me, I really consider it a process of
362
00:28:03,390 --> 00:28:10,440
understanding what an artist is attempting
to achieve. You know, what's what's in the
363
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:20,400
brain, and how do we get as close to that
in real life? And so for me, questions of
364
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:25,920
like, Is this good or is this, you know,
is it the right way to do it? Are kind of
365
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:31,890
irrelevant, because this is the idea,
right? And if you are able to fully
366
00:28:31,890 --> 00:28:36,570
articulate that idea, then it is not
whether or not it's good, it's whether or
367
00:28:36,570 --> 00:28:40,170
not it's accurate. I think often, for
example, if someone said, like, I'm
368
00:28:40,170 --> 00:28:44,130
writing a comedy, right? And then they
give you, you know, here are the blocks
369
00:28:44,130 --> 00:28:47,460
that I'm working with, you know, here's
the character, here's the, you know, the
370
00:28:47,460 --> 00:28:52,980
plot and whatever. Well, then my questions
are, like, it's a comedy. Is it funny in
371
00:28:52,980 --> 00:28:56,400
what way is it funny? Is it is it funny in
the way that you want it to be funny? What
372
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,570
do you want to elicit from the audience?
And so depending on what the answer to
373
00:29:00,570 --> 00:29:06,870
that is that determines how we work with
it, you know, so everything's very unique,
374
00:29:06,990 --> 00:29:11,460
and that's why, for me, it kind of makes
it irrelevant, because, you know, your
375
00:29:11,460 --> 00:29:19,530
project kind of has nothing to do with a
comparable one. It's interesting to have
376
00:29:19,530 --> 00:29:23,790
comparisons, and I do work, you know, with
references, like, just, I'm known for
377
00:29:23,790 --> 00:29:27,600
giving like, you know, here's, here's
10,000 pages of references. But those are
378
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,800
interesting because they help you
articulate what your thing is and what it
379
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,090
is not, right? Not because I think that
you should emulate it, because this is the
380
00:29:36,090 --> 00:29:37,740
gold standard, you know.
381
00:29:37,830 --> 00:29:41,580
Robert Kuang: Yeah, it gives you more to,
like, contextualize what it is you're
382
00:29:41,580 --> 00:29:42,900
working on, right? Yeah.
383
00:29:42,930 --> 00:29:47,760
Aisha Josiah: And so that's, I think, what
I find so compelling about dramaturgy and
384
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,920
so delicious is that process of it, I
think, is very empowering, because it's
385
00:29:52,950 --> 00:29:59,580
all about explain to me again, what it is
you mean, and go even deeper and go and
386
00:29:59,580 --> 00:30:03,420
why do you. Why do you think that, you
know, and it's without judgment. It's just
387
00:30:03,420 --> 00:30:07,800
this kind of trying to get it to a
concrete place where at some point you
388
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:12,420
feel like, Oh, I understand. And that
feeling of understanding between two
389
00:30:12,420 --> 00:30:19,560
people can be so, you know, weighty and
just comforting. And, yeah, it's sort of a
390
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,730
beautiful process. And then when you see
that go on the stage, you know, it's
391
00:30:23,730 --> 00:30:24,330
amazing.
392
00:30:24,390 --> 00:30:27,810
Robert Kuang: And a lot of it would be
like things that people may not be able to
393
00:30:27,810 --> 00:30:33,300
see right away, but they always add to the
overall picture. Like an example of this,
394
00:30:33,300 --> 00:30:38,100
which is, you know, in the TV world, not
theater, but I've been watching like white
395
00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:43,680
lotus late. There's been so much
discussion about the costume, all of the
396
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:50,160
accessories they wear, the color schemes,
you know, the literary references that
397
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,880
they're calling to with the paintings and
the artwork and everything, and all of
398
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,570
that, ultimately, is related to a bunch of
different production departments. But
399
00:30:57,750 --> 00:31:03,300
there's like, a dramaturgical through line
that you can tell is very intentional,
400
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,830
right? Versus something where you're like,
why is there a zipper on that period dress
401
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,150
on things like it just like, random things
that just wind up throwing you off that
402
00:31:12,150 --> 00:31:14,070
maybe didn't need to be there, and
403
00:31:14,070 --> 00:31:17,820
Aisha Josiah: It just throw questions
there. I mean, it's kind of like, it's
404
00:31:17,820 --> 00:31:20,880
funny to sort of like, I think about
things with the dramaturgs hat on, and
405
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,970
then people will often, sort of like, ask
me to put on, like a critics hat on as
406
00:31:23,970 --> 00:31:27,450
well, because I do theater critics, and
they are, they are different hats, don't
407
00:31:27,450 --> 00:31:33,300
get me wrong, but I think one being a
dramaturg has definitely made me a more
408
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:39,270
nuanced theater critic, nuanced,
empathetic. I mean, I would say that the
409
00:31:39,390 --> 00:31:44,580
conversations about how effective
something is, or, you know, what are the
410
00:31:44,580 --> 00:31:49,350
implications of it? Are far more
interesting than whether I liked it or
411
00:31:49,350 --> 00:31:55,020
not. I like chocolate ice cream as well,
you know, like should be all relevant, you
412
00:31:55,020 --> 00:31:59,460
know, to the conversation. But the sort of
implications of, you know, how can you
413
00:31:59,460 --> 00:32:04,650
have this sort of epic drama that also
feels incredibly contemporary, that also
414
00:32:04,650 --> 00:32:09,090
works as an anthology. I mean, white
lotus, I think, does so much that is
415
00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:16,350
visually stunning, but also feels like
this mishmash of high and low culture,
416
00:32:16,710 --> 00:32:22,500
which is very, very relevant today, where
we have so many different influences
417
00:32:22,500 --> 00:32:28,890
happening at the same time, and so, yeah,
I agree with you. I love how cohesive it
418
00:32:28,890 --> 00:32:30,630
feels as an idea.
419
00:32:30,860 --> 00:32:33,440
Robert Kuang: And I think that's really
the thing, that sometimes, when people are
420
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,440
watching movies where they're like, you
know, there's an overall discussion of,
421
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:42,100
like, what happened to the quality, or
like, studios are their projects? Are they
422
00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:47,560
just feel different, right? Yeah, I think
a lot of it is just cohesion. When
423
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,280
hundreds of people try to work together,
sometimes it can be really challenging. If
424
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,660
you're not careful, a project can wind up
being sometimes a disaster. I mean, you
425
00:32:55,660 --> 00:33:00,420
don't want that to be a case, but yeah,
and also, by the way, I also think inside
426
00:33:00,420 --> 00:33:03,900
of writers groups, we're kind of basically
trying to offer each other dramaturgical
427
00:33:03,900 --> 00:33:07,980
support, absolutely, you know what I mean,
because we need it. We don't have other
428
00:33:07,980 --> 00:33:11,640
spaces too often to actually care about
these things.
429
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,560
Aisha Josiah: Yeah. I mean, that's one of
the things I mean. And I struggle with
430
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:20,810
this, because I every so often people like
you need to have more of a business minded
431
00:33:20,810 --> 00:33:25,490
approach to this. But I started doing
dramaturgy, like very, very cheaply for my
432
00:33:25,490 --> 00:33:29,990
friends, and then sort of expanded from
there. And I've always thought, you know,
433
00:33:29,990 --> 00:33:34,880
just as someone who never grew up as a
theater person and knows, like any hurdle,
434
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:40,010
can put off someone entirely. So if you
are someone who's written your first play,
435
00:33:40,010 --> 00:33:43,220
or something like that, and you're like,
What do I do with it? Now, a dramaturg,
436
00:33:43,460 --> 00:33:49,640
you know, can be a really great
introduction to the world. And so I still,
437
00:33:49,670 --> 00:33:56,450
you know, I have the same, the same rates
that I started with, and, like, routinely,
438
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:01,520
I now have to put something in, like
emails where I'm like, Yes, this is not a
439
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:06,920
typo, because I frequently have people
come back and say, I'm sorry. I think you
440
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:13,490
wrote. And I was like, No, I did. I did.
And so what I love about it, though, is
441
00:34:13,490 --> 00:34:19,430
that it makes it feel as essential as I
think it is. I think somewhere along the
442
00:34:19,430 --> 00:34:24,980
line western theater in particular, got to
this place of like individualism, where
443
00:34:25,010 --> 00:34:29,450
the artists are supposed to sit in a room
and do something amazing, just create a
444
00:34:29,450 --> 00:34:33,890
masterpiece on their own and then reveal
it to the world. And the world goes, Oh my
445
00:34:33,890 --> 00:34:35,690
God, look at that genius, you know.
446
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,700
Robert Kuang: And it's usually built on
like, huge amounts of impulse and kind of
447
00:34:40,700 --> 00:34:45,500
rallying at the last minute. And I know
that as a creative but you don't always
448
00:34:45,500 --> 00:34:50,030
know what you're gonna get. And dramaturgy
is like, let's really think about what
449
00:34:50,030 --> 00:34:50,810
we're putting together.
450
00:34:50,810 --> 00:34:54,830
Aisha Josiah: Yeah and, and my thing is,
like, there's nothing wrong with
451
00:34:54,860 --> 00:34:59,570
acknowledging the collaborative nature of
what it is that you're doing. You're in
452
00:34:59,570 --> 00:35:02,630
conversation. Conversation with ideas,
hopefully that came from outside of
453
00:35:02,630 --> 00:35:05,720
yourself. I don't think there's any way
that you could not be in conversation
454
00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:10,220
without with ideas that you know came
outside of you. And so there's nothing
455
00:35:10,220 --> 00:35:15,410
wrong, and there's nothing that you know
takes away from your perspective by sort
456
00:35:15,410 --> 00:35:19,190
of saying, You know what? I sat down with
someone, and we just went back and forth
457
00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:23,240
and really wrestled with this to sort of
figure out, what do I mean? And I think,
458
00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:28,250
you know, back in back in the 1700s 1800s
when we are much more of a letter writing
459
00:35:28,250 --> 00:35:34,580
culture, that's kind of what we did, and
that's what people admire about, you know,
460
00:35:35,270 --> 00:35:40,130
old letters, I'm articulating myself to
you, and you're articulating yourself back
461
00:35:40,130 --> 00:35:45,440
to me, and we're doing it in such a way
that it's a contained piece. It's a full
462
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,410
thought. Your articulator, if you're
having a good, you know, your
463
00:35:48,410 --> 00:35:52,700
interlocutor, if I should say, if you're
having a good conversation, we'll come
464
00:35:52,700 --> 00:35:56,240
back with some questions about this. And,
you know, let me test the logic of what
465
00:35:56,240 --> 00:36:01,160
you're saying. And, you know, let me
respond to this. And that's kind of, I
466
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,920
think what dramaturgy is, I think it's a
real conversation.
467
00:36:04,010 --> 00:36:07,340
Robert Kuang: Yeah, and there's also,
like, a, there's also an intentional,
468
00:36:07,340 --> 00:36:11,360
like, safe environment being created to
test out the work. And once you send it
469
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,270
out, for better or worse, there's some
things you have to accept, right? Like,
470
00:36:14,270 --> 00:36:18,230
you know, if people see it, we can't
control what people say, but there are
471
00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:23,150
kind of ways along the way to kind of
somewhat prep, or help you prepare for
472
00:36:23,180 --> 00:36:28,430
when you send your baby out into the
world, so to speak, right? But anyway, I
473
00:36:28,430 --> 00:36:32,540
just wanted to talk about that, because
even personally, you know, as a writer,
474
00:36:32,540 --> 00:36:36,650
writer, I'm just like, wow, we are really
missing this particular element, yes,
475
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,260
based on what I'm seeing lately, you know,
so
476
00:36:39,890 --> 00:36:44,210
Aisha Josiah: and I think also it it's a
sense of empowerment for the artist as
477
00:36:44,210 --> 00:36:50,180
well, because I think we have given up a
lot of our power in over to people who are
478
00:36:50,180 --> 00:36:57,920
in charge of distribution, not creation.
And distributors are important. But I
479
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:03,140
think it's also important for the or the
artist generally, to know that that is
480
00:37:03,140 --> 00:37:09,500
entirely separate from the act of creating
the work. You thinking about a target
481
00:37:09,500 --> 00:37:13,190
demographic, thinking about, you know, is
this going to play well on this, you know,
482
00:37:13,190 --> 00:37:18,740
stage or whatever? They're not, you know,
silly, throw away questions. They do
483
00:37:18,740 --> 00:37:23,780
become relevant at a certain point, but I
don't think that they should have any
484
00:37:23,810 --> 00:37:31,100
bearing on what you decide to create,
right? I see that a lot like I have this
485
00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:34,640
idea, but no one will want to see it,
because where's the market for it? And
486
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:35,570
you're like, what does that?
487
00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:38,210
What are you doing?
488
00:37:38,750 --> 00:37:42,590
Robert Kuang: And if there was a market,
what does that mean, right? You know, does
489
00:37:42,590 --> 00:37:43,520
that change anything?
490
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,280
Aisha Josiah: This must be a good idea,
because there's a market for, I was like,
491
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,100
well, there's a market for, like, eating
Tide Pods. So, you know,
492
00:37:54,159 --> 00:37:57,639
Robert Kuang: I know, sadly, there are
many niches on online, if you look for
493
00:37:57,639 --> 00:38:02,039
them, but what? What is that? What Is that
relevant to the work that you're trying to
494
00:38:02,039 --> 00:38:07,559
create? Yeah, for sure, you also talk
about, in addition to being a writer,
495
00:38:07,619 --> 00:38:12,899
dramaturg, you've kind of been in the role
of like editor or kind of like Editor in
496
00:38:12,899 --> 00:38:18,119
Chief, having to make leadership executive
decisions, and also being a critic at
497
00:38:18,119 --> 00:38:23,059
times. And for me, you know, as a part of
my like freelance writing world. I do that
498
00:38:23,059 --> 00:38:27,559
on occasion, but it is like a I'm suddenly
in a different dynamic in relationship to
499
00:38:27,559 --> 00:38:31,999
the writers and artists that I'm usually
there with. You know, how have you
500
00:38:31,999 --> 00:38:37,399
navigated those times when you at least,
for me, I've had to process and perhaps at
501
00:38:37,399 --> 00:38:42,219
times, get over my own discomfort with
being in a particular position that has
502
00:38:42,219 --> 00:38:46,179
different like expectations now and
implications, you know?
503
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:51,999
Aisha Josiah: Yeah, I think that's such a
great question. And I think honestly,
504
00:38:52,119 --> 00:38:58,179
being as open as possible, what I found,
you know, every year I go to the fringe
505
00:38:58,179 --> 00:39:07,019
and definitely going as a critic, people
treat you very differently, and I find
506
00:39:07,079 --> 00:39:17,039
that it was important for me to be able to
explain that I am not a teacher grading
507
00:39:17,039 --> 00:39:18,479
your test. You know?
508
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,210
Robert Kuang: Right, it's not like an
assessment. Yeah,
509
00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:25,500
Aisha Josiah: Right. And I think for a lot
of people, and for good reason, you know,
510
00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:30,000
and I don't, I don't exclude myself from
this at all. But for some, for many
511
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:35,640
people, the work is a proxy for yourself,
and so to have the work rejected does feel
512
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:44,610
like you're being rejected in some way.
It's so important to resist that, that
513
00:39:44,610 --> 00:39:52,770
understanding of the work, because, of
course, it isn't you know. And also, who
514
00:39:52,770 --> 00:40:00,240
would I be to reject someone that I don't
know? And so for me, I think part of. Of
515
00:40:00,330 --> 00:40:07,170
theater criticism is an, it's a it's a
process of educating as well to sort of
516
00:40:07,170 --> 00:40:14,130
say, think about what this is. This is a
conversation between people, and this is a
517
00:40:14,130 --> 00:40:19,020
conversation between the critic and the
creator. It's funny. I recently met one of
518
00:40:19,020 --> 00:40:24,540
my all time like heroes and Mark Fisher,
who's a famous critic, and he came out
519
00:40:24,540 --> 00:40:30,090
with, like, the definitive book, I think,
on theater criticism, which I used in my
520
00:40:30,180 --> 00:40:35,190
criticism classes. And so I met him at a
party, and I was like, oh my god, on the
521
00:40:35,190 --> 00:40:41,430
inside, I think I might outside as well.
But, you know, it was just a beautiful
522
00:40:41,430 --> 00:40:46,380
thing. But one thing that he sort of
focuses on is this kind of tripart
523
00:40:46,500 --> 00:40:53,130
methodology of trying to understand, like,
what is the thing? What is the purpose?
524
00:40:53,130 --> 00:40:58,230
Like, what is the intention of the artist?
And how close to that intention have they
525
00:40:58,260 --> 00:41:04,290
gotten, you know, and that's such a
different framework than going in and sort
526
00:41:04,290 --> 00:41:08,370
of saying, like, oh, this was good or this
wasn't as good as the other thing, you
527
00:41:08,370 --> 00:41:15,150
know, right? Because were they trying to
achieve the same thing, you know, if they
528
00:41:15,150 --> 00:41:18,420
weren't, then, you know, that's kind of
comparing apples to oranges, you know,
529
00:41:19,230 --> 00:41:24,330
yeah. So, yeah, that's the kind of, you
know, conversation that I like to have
530
00:41:24,330 --> 00:41:30,090
with creatives. And I think it puts
criticism into a very different position
531
00:41:30,090 --> 00:41:33,480
than we're used to seeing it. I always
think of like Birdman, you know, the
532
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:38,520
theater critic being this like animal that
is just there to sort of like, tear you
533
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:44,070
down, you know. And the game is the sort
of like, Sidestep them and, you know, woo
534
00:41:44,070 --> 00:41:50,640
them and do something. And you know that
it's an adversarial relationship. And I
535
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,100
don't believe that criticism needs to be
that.
536
00:41:53,130 --> 00:41:56,730
Robert Kuang: For sure, yeah, you know, I
think there's like, an old school way of
537
00:41:56,730 --> 00:42:01,140
looking at critics of you make yourself
known by being by standing out with what
538
00:42:01,140 --> 00:42:05,400
you write, and sometimes in, like people
are reading to see what insults they're
539
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,960
throwing right and things like that. But
then there's, you know, being a reviewer
540
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,880
and critic, where the intention, hopefully
is to add to the overall conversation of
541
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:19,140
the project and what it's trying to
achieve, and perhaps even through, like,
542
00:42:19,140 --> 00:42:24,090
your reflections and observations, again,
that it's additive and not something that
543
00:42:24,090 --> 00:42:30,180
takes away gas in the tank for the artist
and for the project itself. But, you know,
544
00:42:30,180 --> 00:42:33,810
it's interesting, because there were times
where I was recently assigned to review
545
00:42:33,810 --> 00:42:37,980
something, and it's been a long time, and
sitting in the audience, I was sort of
546
00:42:37,980 --> 00:42:41,460
like, sometimes, I was like, oh, what.
What feedback should I give and things
547
00:42:41,460 --> 00:42:44,910
like that? I was like, No, that's not
really my role here. I'm both an audience
548
00:42:45,150 --> 00:42:50,520
and also just thinking about the the
messaging a little bit. Yeah, it was, it
549
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,910
was interesting because, you know, I
noticed people were talking to people knew
550
00:42:53,910 --> 00:42:58,590
who their critics were, and everyone else
knew everyone else, you know. And I was
551
00:42:58,590 --> 00:43:02,940
like, submerged in that world, trying not
to just trying to be neutral.
552
00:43:02,970 --> 00:43:06,420
Aisha Josiah: Yeah, it's an interesting
thing, you know, especially when people
553
00:43:06,420 --> 00:43:11,700
know the role that you're there for,
because you do sort of feel put on the
554
00:43:11,700 --> 00:43:15,990
spot. Like, I definitely have been to
shows that have been performed very
555
00:43:15,990 --> 00:43:20,460
conspicuously to me. And, you know, it's
kind of like, oh my goodness, yeah.
556
00:43:24,090 --> 00:43:24,900
Robert Kuang: You're like, yes,
557
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,800
Aisha Josiah: the show, because it's
deeply uncomfortable. Is that what you're
558
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:35,640
going for, right? You know, I think it's
a, it's a, it's an interesting position. I
559
00:43:35,670 --> 00:43:41,490
what I try to sort of remember is that we
sort of think of like culture as like
560
00:43:41,490 --> 00:43:45,420
these artifacts, you know, like plays and
things like that, but the culture is
561
00:43:45,420 --> 00:43:48,780
actually the conversation around these
artifacts, right? It's how we
562
00:43:48,780 --> 00:43:54,810
contextualize them. So this act of
criticism is culture making, right? I put
563
00:43:54,810 --> 00:44:01,710
some new thoughts in, you know, the ether
about this show or performance that I've
564
00:44:01,710 --> 00:44:06,840
seen, and I'm encouraging you to come back
to me at that and in that conversation
565
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:11,790
that we have, this is the culture. This is
what the community thinks about this
566
00:44:11,790 --> 00:44:15,570
thing. And if we think it about this
thing, what are the implications, you
567
00:44:15,570 --> 00:44:22,470
know? What do we think on a broader level?
And so I think that's a very important
568
00:44:22,470 --> 00:44:27,840
role, and so that's why I think criticism
is essential. But I also think, because
569
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:36,630
it's so important, we need to be better at
educating people in how to do it and also
570
00:44:37,650 --> 00:44:43,350
what it actually functions. What's the
function of it? What's it there for? And
571
00:44:43,350 --> 00:44:48,210
in particular, I think artists should be
on the front lines of that, because I
572
00:44:48,210 --> 00:44:55,860
think artists, people who are deeply
immersed in the creation of work, are the
573
00:44:55,860 --> 00:45:02,970
most empathetic, nuanced critics that I've
ever kind of. Cross, but often need a lot
574
00:45:02,970 --> 00:45:07,920
of encouragement. I've had to encourage.
You know people who say I'm an actor or
575
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,850
I'm a lighting designer, I don't know
criticism. Oh, interesting. What do you
576
00:45:12,030 --> 00:45:16,830
mean? You don't know you if anyone knows
theater, you know theater? Yeah,
577
00:45:16,830 --> 00:45:20,370
Robert Kuang: I would love to hear a
lighting designer talk about lighting on a
578
00:45:20,370 --> 00:45:20,520
show,
579
00:45:21,930 --> 00:45:25,740
Aisha Josiah: because they they illuminate
pun intended, you know, like they really
580
00:45:25,740 --> 00:45:31,950
just get you, like, a completely different
perspective. You know, I could be thinking
581
00:45:31,950 --> 00:45:36,030
about it all day, you know what? If you
know, you have these different lighting
582
00:45:36,030 --> 00:45:41,760
states and, you know, in this particular
show, what would that mean? I want us as a
583
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:47,670
community to become well versed in these
different areas, because I think it can
584
00:45:47,700 --> 00:45:54,450
only help the quality of the work that we
create. Yeah, we're well versed in
585
00:45:54,450 --> 00:45:59,880
celebrity and marketing. I think we've had
enough. We are all very deeply immersed in
586
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:04,860
that, and we understand, and we've got all
of the satire and stuff around it, but you
587
00:46:04,860 --> 00:46:09,060
know, what does it mean to sort of think
about it from a musical perspective or
588
00:46:09,570 --> 00:46:15,930
from a director's perspective? You know,
how can we deepen those conversations? And
589
00:46:15,930 --> 00:46:19,740
I think that's what criticism is great
for, and that's why I think we need lots
590
00:46:19,740 --> 00:46:25,590
of different types of critics coming from
backgrounds. There you go, exactly. They
591
00:46:25,650 --> 00:46:26,400
cannot be that.
592
00:46:26,430 --> 00:46:29,970
Robert Kuang: That may be another element
to to all of this as well. It's like, what
593
00:46:29,970 --> 00:46:34,590
is, what is a particular landscape like,
when there's just a lot of different ways
594
00:46:34,590 --> 00:46:36,570
of looking at criticism.
595
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,410
Aisha Josiah: Exactly, and people who,
like, you know, just go to the theater,
596
00:46:40,410 --> 00:46:44,340
like I came from the gym now I'm going to
the theater, you know, or, like I came
597
00:46:44,340 --> 00:46:49,110
from Wall Street now I'm going to the
theater. Like, just, that's what we need,
598
00:46:49,110 --> 00:46:57,660
I think, you know, really, to just have an
actual, real slice of what this culture
599
00:46:57,660 --> 00:46:58,260
is.
600
00:46:58,380 --> 00:47:01,440
Robert Kuang: We have a little bit of time
left. And I wanted to ask you about your
601
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:05,910
experience as a black woman. So since you
started writing and creating and
602
00:47:05,940 --> 00:47:09,930
committing to being an artist in all the
ways that you are, how do you think the
603
00:47:09,930 --> 00:47:14,700
landscape has changed? Let's say the arts
and entertainment industry, but also
604
00:47:14,700 --> 00:47:17,910
particularly, let's say for BIPOC women
like yourself.
605
00:47:18,270 --> 00:47:21,570
Aisha Josiah: That's really interesting. I
think something that I've thought about
606
00:47:21,570 --> 00:47:25,200
recently is that, from a writing
perspective, I actually had to go through
607
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:26,520
a process, and I think I'm still going
through this process of actually
608
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,150
distinguishing what is me and what are
what is the culture that I've been
609
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:37,740
socialized in. I realized a little a
little while ago that, you know, when I
610
00:47:41,580 --> 00:47:44,820
was introduced to theater, and the plays
and stuff that really lit my brain on
611
00:47:44,820 --> 00:47:51,150
fire, you know, this was stuff like Sam
Sheppard, David Mamet, Oscar Wilde, right?
612
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:57,180
And honestly, for all intents and
purposes, I was a playwright. He was a
613
00:47:57,180 --> 00:48:02,910
white man, because those are the stories
that I grew up with. Those are the ones
614
00:48:02,910 --> 00:48:08,730
that resonated with me, yeah, you know.
And so then when I'm, you know, started
615
00:48:08,730 --> 00:48:12,660
taking on like, you know, Lynn Nottage and
Susan Laurie parks, and, you know,
616
00:48:12,660 --> 00:48:18,450
different and I traveled also to Ghana and
to Paris, and, you know, different places,
617
00:48:18,450 --> 00:48:22,530
and, you know, experienced different
theater traditions. That's when I kind of
618
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:28,680
had my first kind of breaking out of that,
you know, this idea of the canon, and this
619
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:35,370
is what literature is. And I think it's
really important to sort of to understand
620
00:48:35,370 --> 00:48:42,930
that I think about quote, unquote,
minority writers, because many of us in a
621
00:48:42,930 --> 00:48:48,780
post colonial society are speaking
fluently in a language that is not ours.
622
00:48:49,170 --> 00:48:58,290
And so what is the language of people who
have been subsumed in another culture?
623
00:48:58,470 --> 00:49:03,240
It's something different. It's a kind of
patois. It's a kind of, there's, it's
624
00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:08,280
beautiful, and it's there, but it needs,
it's almost like it needs, like an
625
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:12,270
anthropologist to, sort of, like, get in
there and figure out what it is that that
626
00:49:12,270 --> 00:49:19,470
this, yeah, I think a challenge when it
comes to the day to day logistics of being
627
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:25,830
a black female playwright is how you
present yourself, because there is the
628
00:49:25,830 --> 00:49:33,870
expectation. I think part of the challenge
is how you present yourself, and feeling
629
00:49:33,900 --> 00:49:38,910
definitely pressure to present yourself in
a certain way, right? You know, as a black
630
00:49:38,910 --> 00:49:43,140
female writer, I feel like I'm expected to
talk about certain things, and I'm
631
00:49:43,140 --> 00:49:49,440
expected to, you know, be using certain
forms, and, you know, be experimental in
632
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:57,510
certain ways. And I, I always try and
become more and more comfortable with
633
00:49:57,510 --> 00:50:02,610
rejecting sort of that, not because. As,
you know, I want to be contrary, but
634
00:50:02,610 --> 00:50:11,490
because I need to allow the space to think
in ways that I'm almost, I almost feel
635
00:50:11,490 --> 00:50:15,090
like I shouldn't, right, like you
shouldn't. You shouldn't say that. That's
636
00:50:15,090 --> 00:50:19,260
not for you to say, because this is not
your experience, right? Or, you know,
637
00:50:19,260 --> 00:50:22,860
that's not for you know, you know, you
should be focusing on something that's
638
00:50:22,860 --> 00:50:24,300
important, right?
639
00:50:24,300 --> 00:50:27,180
Robert Kuang: That's potent, right? It's
like being the perfect, marginalized
640
00:50:27,180 --> 00:50:27,630
person
641
00:50:28,410 --> 00:50:32,100
Aisha Josiah: And you know? And another
thing is that, like, especially, you know,
642
00:50:32,340 --> 00:50:37,950
as someone who, I mean, I went to like, a
grammar school, and I think I present very
643
00:50:37,950 --> 00:50:42,030
differently than my work, you know, so
people sort of like, they see me, and
644
00:50:42,030 --> 00:50:45,000
they're like, Oh, okay. And then, you
know, they see dickless, and they're like,
645
00:50:45,060 --> 00:50:51,750
oh, okay, that's a lot more, that's a lot
more swearing than we had thought. That's
646
00:50:51,750 --> 00:50:57,090
a that's a very raunchy and I'm like,
yeah, that's, that's both me. Both me. I
647
00:50:57,090 --> 00:51:05,730
think that's a thing that, to me, still
feels like the luxury afforded to sort of,
648
00:51:05,910 --> 00:51:12,780
I think, European white men generally, but
like they are allowed to be the full
649
00:51:12,780 --> 00:51:18,540
breath of their person, and there's no
question about it. And I think for other
650
00:51:18,540 --> 00:51:26,400
marginalized groups, there's the challenge
is being able to express yourself fully in
651
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:32,040
that way first, because you have to figure
out, what is that, because you don't have
652
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:37,170
the language initially to to articulate
that, and that's why I think so many
653
00:51:37,170 --> 00:51:40,140
writers and stuff have had to go abroad
and, you know, really just go through
654
00:51:40,140 --> 00:51:44,910
transformative, you know, experiences,
yeah, yeah. And then once you develop a
655
00:51:44,910 --> 00:51:50,820
language, being confident enough and
having enough opportunities to sort of
656
00:51:50,820 --> 00:51:57,510
say, Here's my new language, here's the
way I like to present myself. Let me do
657
00:51:57,510 --> 00:52:00,210
that and let that be acceptable.
658
00:52:00,210 --> 00:52:02,910
Robert Kuang: Thank you so much for saying
that, because I think that's both like a
659
00:52:02,910 --> 00:52:07,350
personal journey and a collective
community. One right? I have been
660
00:52:07,350 --> 00:52:12,120
fortunate, and I know you have to to be in
communities where we get to where our
661
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:17,520
identity does not have to be displaced. It
does not it can be. It's just normal. And
662
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:21,270
those are wonderful opportunities. But
truthfully, there can still be like kind
663
00:52:21,270 --> 00:52:25,710
of monolithic thinking wherever you are,
right, no matter who you're with. So
664
00:52:26,130 --> 00:52:30,540
there's always a moment where I have to go
back to like, who am I and what am I on
665
00:52:30,540 --> 00:52:35,370
this earth to do, right? And also here all
these identities and multiple things are
666
00:52:35,370 --> 00:52:41,490
true, and I'm an immigrant, right? So it's
just like navigating this space is never
667
00:52:41,490 --> 00:52:47,040
ending. Lee adventurous, I guess I will
say yes at the same time, it's just like
668
00:52:47,070 --> 00:52:52,350
there's always more, like we can always do
more to create spaces for for artists, so
669
00:52:52,350 --> 00:52:56,400
that you never know what the next project
could come out of. It was I recently spoke
670
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:01,020
to ins joy, who created Kim's convenience.
I didn't know that it came out of a play,
671
00:53:01,020 --> 00:53:07,260
yeah, that he worked on after graduating
from theater school at Asian Canadian
672
00:53:07,260 --> 00:53:12,510
Theater Company. He got tired of having no
opportunities, no roles, that he finally
673
00:53:12,510 --> 00:53:17,970
wrote his own material, and I was out of,
like, community theater spaces. You know,
674
00:53:18,210 --> 00:53:19,050
you just never know.
675
00:53:19,050 --> 00:53:23,070
Aisha Josiah: It's so funny, because I
have found, you know, even when I was at
676
00:53:23,070 --> 00:53:27,810
NYU, I would write characters, and one of
the notes that I would get back would be
677
00:53:27,810 --> 00:53:33,480
like, I don't know what the ethnic
background of this character is. As a
678
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:38,700
note, I knew instinctively I was like,
This is not a useful note. But I realized
679
00:53:38,700 --> 00:53:43,320
in hindsight, because, for some reason,
and I not for some reason, I think we're
680
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:47,250
socialized to think that, like on the
inside, I must just be inherently
681
00:53:47,250 --> 00:53:51,390
different, you know, as a black woman, as
an Asian woman. So you know what? I mean,
682
00:53:51,390 --> 00:53:55,950
like, it must just be inherently different
on the inside. It couldn't possibly be
683
00:53:55,950 --> 00:53:59,040
this kind of like any person, you know,
684
00:53:59,610 --> 00:54:04,950
Robert Kuang: yeah, the being othered is
coming from you, not your environment.
685
00:54:04,980 --> 00:54:05,940
And, yeah.
686
00:54:05,940 --> 00:54:09,210
Aisha Josiah: It's like, this is this is
too relatable. Where is she from? You
687
00:54:09,210 --> 00:54:13,020
know? And sort of be like, is she
Nigerian? I'm like, Absolutely not. Like,
688
00:54:13,020 --> 00:54:21,090
I'm not. This makes no sense, you know.
And so that, I think I found, I find
689
00:54:21,090 --> 00:54:25,620
hilarious. It's a little a little
melancholy, a little sad, but also, I
690
00:54:25,620 --> 00:54:31,830
think I get a lot of a lot of hope from
that, because that's what I aim to do. I
691
00:54:31,830 --> 00:54:38,370
aim to create stories and characters that
feel like they are, you know, entirely
692
00:54:38,370 --> 00:54:44,070
universal. You can put yourself in there.
Because if I can do that, then I feel like
693
00:54:44,070 --> 00:54:50,610
that sort of proof that I am also part of
the society, you know, I understand right
694
00:54:50,820 --> 00:54:55,020
as well as right? We're both in the same
place, you know. So that's the that's the
695
00:54:55,020 --> 00:54:58,830
goal. I think, if anything, that's the big
challenge as well. You know, when you're
696
00:54:58,830 --> 00:55:02,850
coming from a back. Grounds that is sort
of frequently othered. It's kind of like
697
00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:08,550
you have to keep claiming a stake in the
society, like, I'm here, I belong here. In
698
00:55:08,550 --> 00:55:14,220
fact, I get it. We're both together. We're
doing the same thing. Yeah, that's a I
699
00:55:14,220 --> 00:55:18,150
think that's an interesting one. And
maybe, I don't know if you ever get there,
700
00:55:18,180 --> 00:55:25,230
get to that place, but I do think that
being able to create works of all genres,
701
00:55:25,260 --> 00:55:29,970
of all, you know, types, being able to
make bad work, I think that's the real,
702
00:55:30,030 --> 00:55:31,470
you know, I one thing. I think.
703
00:55:31,500 --> 00:55:35,640
Robert Kuang: It's such a privilege. Yeah,
and I keep telling people, like everyone,
704
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:40,590
please, set, I don't know, set a goal to
make bad art, if anything, because people
705
00:55:40,590 --> 00:55:43,320
do this all the time, and they fail
upwards.
706
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:48,270
Aisha Josiah: Yes, yes. Fail upwards
constantly. And I look and I'm like, that
707
00:55:48,270 --> 00:55:53,550
was objectively just terrible. That was a
bad we. They did not achieve the goal. And
708
00:55:53,550 --> 00:55:55,020
yet, you know, here they are.
709
00:55:55,260 --> 00:55:59,250
Robert Kuang: The difference may just have
been. They just decided, who cares? Yes, I
710
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:01,080
I'm hot shit or whatever, right?
711
00:56:01,740 --> 00:56:07,140
Aisha Josiah: yeah, yeah. And, you know
what? Why not? Let's all be audacious like
712
00:56:07,140 --> 00:56:10,920
this. You know, not sort of hold ourselves
back because we sort of think this is not
713
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:16,080
good enough yet. No one is going to, you
know, I think, I think that's what I see
714
00:56:16,140 --> 00:56:21,380
often in sort of like marginalized
communities. It's not so much that, you
715
00:56:21,380 --> 00:56:26,720
know, every opportunity, you know, there's
a door closing in your face. I think often
716
00:56:26,780 --> 00:56:30,620
we close the doors ourselves, because
we're kind of like, I'm not ready for the
717
00:56:30,620 --> 00:56:35,360
big leagues like that. I haven't had, you
know, and they won't understand it, yeah,
718
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:39,440
you know, it has to be perfect. It has to
be marketable. It has to be, yeah, I get
719
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:46,240
it, you know. But that's, I want to see
the scrappy, messy stuff, yeah? Because
720
00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:51,460
that's where you really get to the heart
of, like, you know, culture, conversation,
721
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:56,140
uncomfortableness, absolutely. Yeah, I
don't know if that quite answers, you
722
00:56:56,140 --> 00:56:59,380
know, what the experience? I mean, there's
all, there's all the usual, you know,
723
00:56:59,380 --> 00:57:00,540
people, no,
724
00:57:01,260 --> 00:57:04,500
Robert Kuang: you know. Thank you for
being willing to tackle this question that
725
00:57:04,500 --> 00:57:09,420
I know it's just like a perennial. You
know? Hopefully we can continue to be
726
00:57:09,420 --> 00:57:12,720
willing to connect with each other's
personal truths. You know what I mean,
727
00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:16,800
because we know multiple things are true,
and your perspective is just as value
728
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:21,680
valuable as anyone else's right? So thank
you for your time today and your openness
729
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:25,160
and willingness to chat about these
things. You know, some of them sometimes
730
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:28,880
are like sensitive topics, but I think
this is just stuff that we live with,
731
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:33,080
right? So for anyone who wants to connect
with you and check out your work and maybe
732
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:37,340
work with you, I'll put the links in the
show notes. But for listeners, where can
733
00:57:37,340 --> 00:57:37,940
they find?
734
00:57:38,420 --> 00:57:44,200
Aisha Josiah: The best place to find me is
my website. So just Aisha josiah.com and
735
00:57:44,260 --> 00:57:49,900
I'm woefully bad at keeping it up to date,
but it will be getting an update very
736
00:57:49,900 --> 00:57:55,300
soon. And so that is where you can, sort
of, you know, see what I'm up to and
737
00:57:55,300 --> 00:58:00,400
things I've done in the past, and then on
my socials again, just my name, Aisha
738
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:06,720
Josiah, I've got my my my link tree, which
has got all of the things that I do with
739
00:58:07,620 --> 00:58:14,400
fringe biscuit and stage analytics and
just my whole jack of all trades sort of
740
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:20,760
goes on there. I kind of, I am one of
those people who social media is a tool
741
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:25,880
for me, not a pleasurable experience in
and of itself. It's
742
00:58:25,879 --> 00:58:31,399
Robert Kuang: no longer a place where I
express myself. I use it for very specific
743
00:58:31,399 --> 00:58:32,119
purposes.
744
00:58:32,719 --> 00:58:37,159
Aisha Josiah: I'm all I'm very much a
person who loves receiving emails and
745
00:58:37,159 --> 00:58:42,219
stuff from people like I'm I think if we,
if we still wrote letters, I would enjoy a
746
00:58:42,219 --> 00:58:46,479
letter from a stranger. And so that's kind
of where I get my my joy and stuff. Like,
747
00:58:46,479 --> 00:58:51,999
people just like, Hey, I like, read this.
And, you know, like, my email is very open
748
00:58:52,059 --> 00:58:55,419
to people, which, you know, may or may not
bite me in the ass at some point.
749
00:58:57,820 --> 00:59:01,680
Robert Kuang: I love that. I love that
we'll have people like, find it and like,
750
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,080
really take you and then connect with,
yes,
751
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:07,080
Aisha Josiah: you get on my website. You
can send me an email directly, and I will
752
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:12,840
read it. And, you know, it'll be a lot
more fun than any of the spam ones that I
753
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:15,060
get trying to something,
754
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:17,040
Robert Kuang: yeah,
755
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:21,680
Aisha Josiah: but I think, I think that's
kind of, I'd like that to mean to remain
756
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:25,700
the case, you know, for as long as I got
the bandwidth and stuff for it. Because I
757
00:59:25,700 --> 00:59:28,940
think especially for artists, we should
always feel like we can just knock on each
758
00:59:28,940 --> 00:59:30,320
other's doors and just say, hey,
759
00:59:30,619 --> 00:59:31,940
Robert Kuang: yeah, never hurts to reach out.
760
00:59:31,940 --> 00:59:35,694
Aisha Josiah: yeah, yeah, I saw something
you did, and I thought it was cool. Just
761
00:59:35,749 --> 00:59:40,221
wanted to say hi. I also do cool things,
you know. And I'm like, Oh, great, thank
762
00:59:40,276 --> 00:59:44,748
you. Exactly No. So things like this as
well. I love listening to a good podcast,
763
00:59:44,804 --> 00:59:49,000
and just like finding out about people
that I've like, snooped on from afar,
764
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:54,504
Robert Kuang: that's my secret goal is
like I have, I have a more stronger case
765
00:59:54,565 --> 00:59:59,360
for reaching out to people and to, like,
actually ask them questions. I've been
766
00:59:59,420 --> 01:00:04,336
wanting to. Ask, but like, so once again,
thank you so much for being willing for
767
01:00:04,397 --> 01:00:09,313
that, and also, like, we definitely should
keep in touch you and I. So thank you.
768
01:00:09,373 --> 01:00:13,440
Hopefully. Yeah, this definitely won't be
our last combo, for sure.
769
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:15,179
Aisha Josiah: So thank you. Oh, it's been
a joy.