Annihilation - S15 E121

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Hello and welcome to Shoot the Hostage with me, Sarah, and my partner Dan. We're a movie podcast and we cover eight films per season on a specific theme. Now, we swear we chat major spoilers and we occasionally cover triggering topics. So, please do use listener discretion. If you like what we do and want to support us, consider hitting five stars on Spotify or maybe subscribing or even reviewing on your platform of choice. We also have a Patreon with a free tier for lineups and updates and two paid tiers with extra cont. content and early ad free uploads. Right, on with the show.

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Sarah, it's the Penny and we're back in Garland. Alex, Garland,

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I knew you were going to find an excuse to say penny.

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Yeah, cuz it's the penny.

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Cuz it annoys me and you enjoy that it annoys me.

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Why does it annoy you?

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The penny? I don't know. Because it's become your thing.

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Because it's not correct.

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No.

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That's why, isn't it?

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No.

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No.

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No.

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It's very defensive way of saying no. Sarah,

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I don't know what you're trying to suggest as if I'm some sort of pedant.

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You've admitted that freely on the show many times. I could put a super cut together now. You saying I'm a pedant.

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All right. it. But ironically, my username on eBay is Hopeless Pedantic, which actually is really grammatically incorrect.

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Oh, is it?

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Yeah. But it was a play on Hopeless Romantic, right?

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By the Bouncing Souls.

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That's a song.

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Yeah.

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The Bouncing What?

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The Bouncing Souls. They're a punk band.

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Like the shoe.

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I assume that's where they got the name. No. Well, it's No, it's spelled S O U L S. But

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Right. Okay.

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It's fascinating, isn't it? Should we talk about Annihilation?

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Let's talk about Annihilation. As we said, the second Alex Garland movie we've covered, we covered Exmacka in your trap season, wasn't it?

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Yes.

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Okay. So, you've chosen both the Alex Garland movies. That's interesting.

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Yeah, I like Alex Garland a lot.

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I know you do. But I love Alex Garland.

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I know.

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Um, so let's see where this chat leads, I guess. But, um, yeah, mention it's a penny. So, we got one more after this. You've chosen to put Annihilation. in this spot.

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Yeah.

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Um 2018 it came out. When did you first did you see it when it came out? And why did you put it here in this season and in this spot?

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I put it in this spot because I know well I suspected this season would be pretty hardgoing for you and so I thought I would reward you at the end of the season with a few films that I know you like.

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Right. Yeah. I was I thought you was going been um some of these films have been pretty heavy going so I thought I'd lighten it up with Annihilation.

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Yeah.

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Mly about self-destruction.

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Um yeah, sure.

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So, you put it here cuz you wanted to end on a couple of movies that you know that I liked.

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Yeah.

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Thank you.

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I I got the Messiah of Evils out of the way straight out the gate.

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Yeah. Your picnics, your messiahs.

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Yeah.

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Your your lynch.

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Mhm.

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Yeah. Good lord.

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So, this is pudding. This is dessert for you.

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This is a lovely treat for me.

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Tasty.

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This is a a can of cherry soda with a bag of jelly tots and some chocolate spread.

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Oo,

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lovely.

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That's very specific.

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Yeah. It's almost like I actually eat those things.

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It is. Yeah. Chocolate with chocolate spread on and some jelly in it. I don't know how you don't have diabetes.

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It's positive.

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Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.

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Just will it away.

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Look, life is hard. We've got to get our dopamine where we can.

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Yeah, it could be worse. Could be worse than jelly tots.

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If that's double chocolate and jelly tots, then that's that's all you. That's fine.

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Um, but yeah, I als I I chose it because I am a big fan of Alex Garland. I

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It's funny. We were talking about this the other day a little bit

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and I said that I don't I don't even know if I'm aware of what Alex Garland looks like

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really.

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I don't even think I've seen an interview with him. which is fascinating to me because of all the filmmakers currently working, I think he covers some of the themes that are my favorite. Like he doesn't shy away from really heavy s***. He he he makes movies about technology and politics and trauma and, you know, some some really cool sci-fi tropes and

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he he doesn't seem interested in small talk.

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No. if you will. So, I think well, he's not like one of my favorite directors of all time or anything, but I think if I had to make a list of five people I want to go for a pint with,

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he he would be on there cuz I think he'd be fascinating to talk to

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based on his work alone.

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I I do know what he looks like cuz I feel like I've probably watched all of the interviews he's done. He doesn't do a lot.

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I was going to say like it surprises me that I haven't seen them, but then maybe he's just not big on the spotlight.

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No, I I get the impression that he Was the Oh, you right there. What's that? My glasses.

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No, that was my toy

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um coaster.

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Oh, was your co your Hellraiser coaster, was it?

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So, I will edit this all out so we can maintain the professional look of the podcast.

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What was I saying about Alex Garland?

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You rudely interrupted me.

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I'm so sorry. Uh something about you've watched most of his interviews, consumed all of the Alex Garland content.

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I can't remember what I was saying. I know what Alex Garden and I can't even prounce his name. I know what Alex Garland looks like. He looks like a man who wears a jacket.

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Okay, that doesn't really narrow it down.

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He's got kind of short hair, dark graying.

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Okay, cool. Um, doesn't really alter my opinion. I don't know why I asked. Yeah, I I didn't see this film immediately after release. Did it get a cinema release in the UK? I'm not sure it did.

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I don't think that it did. weird cuz I had the my memory of this film. I've only seen this once before. It's only my second viewing and I thought that this was a Netflix original. My understanding was that it it it came out on Netflix and I thought that it was made by Netflix but it wasn't. It was a Paramount movie.

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Yes.

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That Garland um was offered while it was in post-production on Xmachina.

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But I thought that I thought that this was a Netflix movie. But um I think it did it did get cinema release in the states.

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Okay. I did I did hear that there was some uh discontent, some butting of heads behind the scenes

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for

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between Alex Garland and uh Paramount,

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right?

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Basically, I think it was Scott Ruden who produced

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and he from what I've read adamantly took Garland's side in the whole uh disagreement. But Paramount um this really makes me laugh. Uh Paramount obviously were stumping up a lot of money for this project. They did some test screenings. They didn't go so well. I think this film was quite mismarketed.

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I can see that. Yeah. Being a problem.

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I can see it being quite a difficult film to market.

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This is not for everyone.

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No, no, absolutely not.

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Um but yeah, the test screenings didn't go terrifically well. So, the Paramount exec was kind of like, right, um we want you to make Natalie Portman's character a little bit more likable, you know? make her tit bigger.

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Yeah, we don't think she's likable enough. She doesn't even smile.

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Um, and I think they use the exact phrase, uh, it's too intellectual.

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Oh, f*** off.

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Which coming from an executive has got to be the biggest compliment of all time.

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Yeah, you're so right.

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But Scott Ruden kind of backed Alex Garland and said, "No, no, he's going to make it the way he's going to make it. He gets final cut."

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Okay.

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Which good for him. And I'm glad it worked out that way because can you imagine a dumbed down version of this? There's no point to it.

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It wouldn't work.

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No.

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Well, but but why paramount? Why choose to adapt this intellectual and then cerebral sci-fi novel cerebral director, right? A director like if you don't want that, then hire the Russo brothers. I don't know. I don't know. I like their films. That's unfair.

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Because of the because of the studio, my brain was just like Nick Staller.

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I don't even know what he's done. Like maybe he did the trolls maybe. I can't remember.

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Um

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but yeah, it just it kind of baffles me that that there was even a question of what this film might turn out to be

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like why finance it in the first place? But because of that because of those disagreements, it was sort of unceremoniously dumped

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and and released on Netflix. So that's probably why you thought it was a a Netflix production.

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That makes a lot of sense because the budget was $40. 55 million and it grossed around the 40 million mark. Yeah.

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So that must have only been in the states or wherever.

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Mh.

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Um and they chose because they weren't confident about it, they chose not to release it in other territories and you know just let's just sell the rights um make a quick buck. Don't know what they would have gotten for it. Dump it on Netflix. But yeah, it's funny like I didn't know any of that at the time when I was watching it. It's just I remember it. I think it did get a bit of a market marketing push over it. I'm sure there just some posters on buses.

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Yeah, I think they sort of focused a bit too heavily on the whole like body horror aspect, just the horror in general,

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and I think that led to audiences being a little bit confused and a little bit disappointed in some cases, but I think it's done all right since. It's definitely considered quite a cult favorite now.

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It's got its fans, which I'm thrilled about.

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And it's it's based on book.

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It is based on book. Is it Jeff Vandermir?

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I have and Jeff Vandermi. I assume that last one's letter is meant to be an R.

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Vandermi.

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And um yeah, as I said, Garland, I think, was approached at the end of Xmachina when he was imposed on that to and he was challenged to adapt this book and there was only one released at the time, but later became a trilogy.

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And he read he he started reading the book, he got partway through it and was like, "Yeah, this is something that I would like to get. my teeth stuck into finished the book and then went away to write the um the screenplay but never revisited the book. He made a very conscious choice to just not reference it at all. Like he's read it. What he wants to do is adapt the feeling of it.

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I see.

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And um we'll get into the themes and things like that, but one thing that's present throughout this movie is a dreamlike quality. And he wanted to maintain that as well. And I guess that's part of that's a very smart way to do that as particularly this story.

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And that's why it's in liinal space this season because it does feel quite dreamlike. Like the shimmer itself is

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very liinal, but not in a way that we've

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seen so far this season

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and not in a way that get gets talked about very much. I think that's one of the reasons I love this movie is that liinal spaces often get talked about in more of an urban context. I think that's what comes to mind is like abandoned buildings or car parks or whatever. most people, but this absolutely counts, I think. But yeah, I do I do love Alex Garland. I'm going to get my feminist hat on now, as if it's ever off.

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Yeah,

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it's a permanent hat. It's a wig at this point. Um,

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it's a big big hat like David Lynch wears.

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Yeah.

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War RP.

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Oh, I'm sure the hat's still fine. If that's any consolation, I don't know. Kale's probably got it.

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A I hope so. But um yeah, I do love Alex Garland. I don't I don't love all of his projects. Um

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I think I do.

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The beach kind of left me a little bit cold.

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I forgot about that. Yeah, I've only written down his directing credits, but

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Well, but I think anything he's involved with is should be part of the conversation.

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Yeah, that I Yeah, I agree.

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Um but that was the first I think that was the first Alex Garland thing that I ever consumed because

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didn't he like the novel.

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I know. I read the novel.

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Yeah.

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Just before the movie came out cuz that was huge. It did really well.

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I think we might have spoken about that in our exmina show.

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Probably. Probably. Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Um but yeah, obviously his ties to Danny Bole. That's quite exciting.

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He's tied to Danny Bole.

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Does Danny know about this?

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Not physically.

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Would explain a lot.

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Metaphysically. No. Um

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what's your favorite Garland thing then?

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Oh. Maybe this.

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Oh, yeah.

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Maybe this.

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But it's really hard to say because I love Xmachina so much and I loved Civil War. We've seen that a couple times now. And I think that was super underrated at the time.

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Yeah, I agree.

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I think I think maybe much like Annihilation actually, that's going to be one that people revisit and

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reappraise over time.

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Um, super kind of smart. He's just a smart filmmaker, isn't he? And he he's very passionate about the things that he chooses to adapt.

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He certainly seems to be. Yeah.

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Hearing how he how what his process is basically is he gets an he gets obsessed with something and then a story jumps out to him and then he tries to adapt it and he's obsessed with this thing up to a point where the film's finished and he's like, I never want to think about this thing again. And then moves on to the next thing that he's started to become obsessed about. And he's he's very he seems like he's very is very true to that as well. Like uh he's very true to the the projects that he's making and wants to stick by that and he's unwilling to compromise um in the best way. Yeah.

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You know, in in a way that you're defending the piece of art you're trying to make.

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But that's kind of to me that's what makes a I'm not saying he is one, but that's what makes an alter.

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Yeah.

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That's the difference between an aur and a director.

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I think he's my favorite filmmaker at the moment.

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Is he?

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I think so.

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See, I I know I I said Like I think he's great. I think he's incredibly talented, but I wouldn't put him in my alltimes. But that's predominantly because I didn't love men.

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I thought men was I thought men was good.

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I thought it was good, but I didn't love it considering I really like Jesse Bley, really like Alex Garland.

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Um the whole idea behind it.

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Um

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I don't like men.

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It's a movie all about them, Sarah. That's why you

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But they're all Rory Caner. I I I love weird movies. I love stuff that incorporates folklore. It's one I pro probably should revisit.

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I I liked it. It was It was very It was very beat you over the head. It wasn't a very subtle movie.

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Not in the slightest.

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Um but I liked it just fine. It just wasn't my favorite.

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But that's kind of what I mean because of because of the presence of things like that on his um back catalog. That's what gives me pause. And like Warfare I thought was great, but I'm in certainly in no rush to ever watch it again. Yeah, but I I feel like um Men took a a pretty big swing and did some pretty weird things in a movie.

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And yeah, for something like that to get a cinema release always makes me happy.

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I Yeah, I it does make me smile to myself a little bit thinking about someone's auntie that's coming to watch the film with their whatever and they've got no idea what they're watching um had to Coronation Street just to come out and then they seeing Rory Conir as a baby. Like that's is does that happen? in that film. Maybe a child.

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I think his face is superimposed on a small child. Yeah. At one point.

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Yeah. That that's amusing to me that I think you're talking about the people who left my screening of Midsummer 10 minutes in,

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right?

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Yeah.

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Which part? 10 minutes. Oh,

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I was after the Yeah, the family stuff. Yeah.

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I don't know what they thought they were in for, but it wasn't that.

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I wonder if they went to see Hereditary. I know which part they would have left.

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Good lord. I doubt it. But yeah, some films aren't for everybody. And I think

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Alex Garland's output is definitely uh

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on that list,

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I guess. So, but you can't argue like there's some oldtimers of their genres. Um

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Oh, you I I completely agree. I just I don't think his films are ever going to be considered mainstream.

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No, which is I I hear what you're saying and which is why it's a bit curious that he's linked to this Elder Ring

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uh movie.

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But you said he's a big gamer.

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He's he's a I know that when He wrote 28 Days Later he was in part inspired by what he'd seen the people living in poverty and stuff around the world, but then also he he played a lot of Resident Evil. So I guess he was just merging those two things to a degree. So yeah, he's he likes the game from what I can tell.

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So maybe he's just got a vested interest in the project then.

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But I it's sort of on the one hand I'm I'm dubious, but on the other hand I'm thinking well if he's linked to it and he's accepted it

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then he must be relative. comfortable that he's going to make the thing that he wants to make. I just hope it doesn't lead to a load of conflict and a s*** movie.

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Well, it ends up being directed by Alan Smithy.

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I feel like he's got enough clout within the industry now that he can probably comfortably make the film that he wants to make.

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He'll try.

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Yeah.

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He will give it his best.

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And also, people know he's not a big money spinner at this point. So, if they If that's what they want, then surely why hire him?

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Yeah, I know.

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We'll see. We'll see. Maybe this will be the first ever good video game movie.

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Hey, what about Need for Speed?

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Maybe this will be the first ever good video game movie.

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But I bet Ramy Malik's not going to take his pants off in

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I hope not.

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Sexually assault a woman in an office.

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It's a weird movie, but it's good.

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Maybe Dominic Cooper will be in it with really tall war hair.

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Yeah. No, he was in Warcraft. He was the I don't know what he was in that some guy with armor or something. I think my um I think my favorite garden thing is Devs still whenever I sit down and think about it. That's the one I'm like that's the one that my jaw was on the floor.

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Well, yeah. Just the quantum computing stuff. That's fully up your street, isn't it?

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Yeah. The whole determinism thing like Yeah. It's just I loved every minute. I I'm really looking forward to rewatching that actually. And I was thinking I wanted to buy it, but you can't. It's not.

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I'd never heard of it until you said, "Oh, let's watch this thing."

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Oh, really? That's pretty

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crazy.

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Yeah.

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Never never in the conversation, which it really really deserves more eyes on it. I thought it was fantastic.

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100%.

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But again, that's that's sort of one of the things that I wanted to talk about, and this is why I wanted to put my feminism hatwig on. Um, is that I think he's probably one of the best male directors currently working who writes such brilliant roles for women

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and if you think about it his films are like predominantly populated by women. I mean this one is the the best example of that but also ex Machina the focus is really on

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a

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Alicia Vicandanda

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um she's sort of the core of the movie even though everybody around her is a man.

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Civil War

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Civil War is I mean there are male characters in it but the two main characters are the female photographers.

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Yeah. Cast number one is it Kirsten Dunce,

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I would imagine. So, yeah, Kirsten Dunce, then Kaylee Spain.

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Yeah, of course.

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Um, devs, there are incredible roles for women. Like even side characters, like the actual developers that you wouldn't necessarily expect to be female roles, he finds a way to include them.

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Yeah.

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Um, men obviously he's he's clearly interested in gender. and gender politics to some degree, but I don't know. Can you think of a better male director/screenwriter who who creates better roles for women?

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Um, Christopher Nolan. He's obviously

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I'm going to throw something at you.

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Yeah, he writes great roles for women, but they all end up dead within the first 10 minutes.

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They're never in the film.

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Yeah,

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but they're the they're the

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they're mentioned. They're the catalyst.

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They're the cat. the reason for the whole story, Sarah. So, when you think about it, they're the most important ones, even though we don't know their names or ever see them.

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He's good. He's great. Like, he's unparalleled at writing dead wives.

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Yeah,

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the wife, she's dead.

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But I think

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story.

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I think when when it comes to this sort of conversation, so many people mistakenly and outdatedly kind of go, "Oh, you but like Jos Weddon." No, Alex Garland is what Jos Weddon thinks he is. He's writing meaty roles for women.

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I remember I remember Jos Weddon being everyone praising him for female characters

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because he wrote Buffy.

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But is it more that he's he put just puts women in his stuff rather than I I haven't seen enough of his stuff to really judge it. But I wonder what the difference is there because with Garland I've seen all of his the stuff that he's made. I can see that all of his characters regardless of gender are complex interesting characters with backstory and make interesting choices. Um, and I'm guessing that's not really the case with is it more of a surface level. This is a badass woman and that's good.

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Yeah.

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And we probably didn't see that much of that in was in the ' 90s when Ruffy came out.

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Yeah. Like early 90s. The movie came out in '92.

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Um, the TV show I want to say was like 97 when that started.

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Um, so yeah, there hadn't been a huge amount of that sort of stuff outside of like I don't know, Cynth Roth rock movies in the 80s,

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which was again pretty one-dimensional,

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but I don't know, a lot of people still point to him because he he makes women central to his projects, but they're all like overly sexualized and often a little bit infantilized, and I I don't love that. And also, knowing what we know about Jos Wed is not great.

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Yeah, it doesn't help, does it?

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It doesn't. It sure doesn't. Um Where whereas why this is why I think Alex Garland is such a good example of that because like running through the projects we've name checked already. We've got they're all so different.

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Yeah.

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It's not just like this is a badass woman. They're all so different and complex. Like in Annihilation all the women are like intelligent and capable and hold their own without being two-dimensional or caricatures. Um Exmachina, she's kind of a male projection.

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Yeah,

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she's conniving. She's sort of appearing as they want her to, which I find endlessly interesting. Um, men, the the main character, I want to say Harper. She called Harper.

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Yeah, let's go with that.

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Okay. Um, she's troubled, flawed, very complex character, traumatized. Um, Civil War, they're really ambitious and driven, but that's not all they are. Like, you know, you know. Um, and in devs we've got like kind of it sort of runs the gamut between like smart, ruthless but fallible. I don't know. I just think he's great.

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I think he's great at that. And I hope he continues writing good roles for women.

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And it's he they came up with a really good cast for this one, didn't they?

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Oh, yeah.

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I struggle to think of a cast that anyone else that I would put in these particular roles. Right from Natalie woman to Jennifer Jason Lee to Tessa Thompson to others Gina Gina

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Gina Rodriguez

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Gina Rodriguez

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who's a little bit problematic in real life which really

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upsets me because she's really attractive.

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Oh, okay. That is bad for you, is it?

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Yeah, it's not ideal.

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That sucks for you.

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Selfishly, it sucks.

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Um yeah, really good really good actors in this and do really um good work with I guess some of them all I would well all of them outside of Lena you don't really learn much about them only what's revealed by them

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yeah

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or contextually

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so it must be quite difficult to portray something and and I'm thinking about Tessa Thompson maybe in particular that there's a few things about her character that's slowly revealed

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I wish she'd been given a little bit more to do

305
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yeah same same but it was I mean it worked it worked so you don't need to put anything else I got everything I felt I needed to from that character

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and she was sort of pivotal. We'll get to this later, but

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So, the setup for this movie is uh Lena teaching or we get the impression she's some sort of lecturer.

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She's a a learner.

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She learns people,

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educates people in some capacity. I don't know who's getting anything done in her lessons because I can't imagine there are many people who look like Natalie Portman in that field of work. Be very distracting for most people, I imagine.

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Yeah.

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But I thought that was a really interesting way to sort of open the movie because I think one thing I love about this on rewatch is that you're given all of the information within about 10 minutes, but on first watch, it's almost impossible to piece it all together that early. You'd have to be

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lazy breadcrumbs for you.

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Yeah. Yeah. Which in I've seen this movie three times now. I think

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we covered this before. No, I haven't.

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I thought you read.

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No, I've talked about it on a show, but I've never dedicated a full show to it.

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Um, but yeah, I think I think possibly I've liked it a little bit more with each rewatch. I think it's very rewarding

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on multiple watches. Um, which is rare. I think I think it's so dense with information that I can't see myself getting tired of it anytime soon. But it's not something I'm going to watch like Yearly, for example, it's not a yearly watch, is it?

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No.

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It's pretty dark for that.

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Yeah. High records.

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Or or is it dark? We'll get to that.

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It depends on your It depends on how you feel about certain things, which we will touch on.

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We will.

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I guess not bleak if you're you.

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We'll get to it.

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Okay. Okay.

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Stop trying to spoilers me.

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All right. So, going back to the opening, we've got this discussion between well kind of a lecture between Lena and her students where she's talking about these cervical cancer cells that are dividing. I think she says from a 31year-old patient. Um and I did a little bit of research on this because there's a flashback further on in the film where I think it's her and Oscar Isaac sitting on a sofa and they're just independently reading and I was because it's Alex Garland I was just like what she's reading must be relevant. So I looked into it and it's called um a book The immortal life of Henrietta Lax, who was um a 31-year-old African-American woman who had cervical cancer. It's raised huge questions surrounding consent in medical settings because without her knowledge, samples of the cells were taken. Without her consent, without her knowledge, um and it turns out that these cells from the tumor sample that were removed, um didn't die as expected. But instead they uh continued to divide like indefinitely. And because of that they were used to advance cancer research, AIDS research. Like they've been pivotal in in treatments in the years since. But she died at 31 and her family were kept in the dark uh and lived in poverty while the scientists and medical practitioners got rich off of her, which kind of sucks. But that's perhaps a different conversation. for a different show.

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Um, but I did find that really interesting. Like again, it it's laying these breadcrumbs very very early on and if you know what's happening, it's I don't know. It's really interesting when you put everything together,

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I think. But I found that fascinating. I I went down a whole rabbit hole there.

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Yeah, I guess they do introduce the u the notion of the replication early on in this film and it plays throughout.

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So I do love the relevance. And then shortly after that, we get a conversation between her and a coworker.

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Dan.

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Dan.

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f*** Dan.

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Whose partner is called Sarah.

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Yeah.

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Dan's my least favorite character. He's a prick.

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Yeah. He's not great.

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No.

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Initially, it's just like, "Oh, he seems nice." And then things are revealed further down the line. It's like, "Oh, no. Don't like you."

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Yeah. She's having an affair with him.

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Yeah.

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Um, and I guess that's her her thing, right? Because I guess we learn about the the main characters in this, the women who don't have actual names in the book. They're just

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Do they not?

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No, they're they're called um by their profession.

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Oh,

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like um their names are their profession. That's how they're referred to in a book. A bit like a Jason Stafen movie. You know that movie where he's called Mr. Beekeeper

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or a working man.

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Yeah,

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that that one was a bit vague.

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Yes. Any job will do.

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The brick layer. Yeah.

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I don't know.

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The optometrist. We've not had that yet. I'm just giving them ideas at this point.

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It's all going on a piece of paper somewhere.

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That's interesting. I did read somewhere that the the the character names came from a different book, but I didn't write the name of it down, so I've only got half a fact for you.

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I think where I was originally going with that is that they all have their their own self-destructive thing. And I I think that Lena, Natalie Portman's character, is feeling really guilty. about having had an affair.

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Mhm.

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And that's the thing that she's like cuz she she says at one point um when asked why did she go into the shimmer because she owes

366
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Oh, yeah.

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Kane, she owes Oscar Isaac.

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Yeah.

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She owns him. Many people would love to

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um but she owes him. So that's that's my thoughts on what her character's motivation is. Do you agree or do you think there's something else to it? Do you think there's also just a professional curiosity to it? as well cuz she's a scientist.

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Biologist.

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Yeah, I I think Yeah, cellular biologist I believe.

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I think probably all of the above.

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Yeah,

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I think I think you're right. Well, that's my take as well when she said um that she owes him.

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That that is what I took from it.

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Yeah. And they all have that, right? You've got all they all have they're all damaged.

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Yeah.

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In in in a way. And It's interesting that he chose for all of the characters to to have that in common. Uh he was definitely exploring, he said this on interviews, he was wanted to explore the nature of self-destruction and how as seemingly everyone in on the planet he thinks has an element of self-destruction. Sometimes it's really easy to see and sometimes it's harder to see.

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I think that's probably true.

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I think so. And um all of the characters have that. I think you've got Jennifer Jason Lee is our second Jennifer Jason Lee movie, I believe, after Possessor.

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Yes. Yeah.

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And um

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she's playing a similar character in this, I feel like, to to what she was in Possessor. Quite

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very stern and unemotional.

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Yes. Seems quite cold.

387
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Yeah.

388
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Um but in this, I think she she offers up at one point that she picked the candidates to put into the shimmer. So she's got an element of guilt herself, I think, around that.

389
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Yeah.

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Um is she also dying?

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Yes, she's got cancer.

392
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Yeah. So there's there's that. She's literally destructive. and you know, I may as well see this thing and go out on my own terms, which I completely I completely understand that.

393
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Um, Tessa Thompson, we we learn about her having a history of self harm is hinted at potentially.

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They talk about scars on her arms. Yeah. Yeah.

395
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And I think well, the conversation is akin to like, oh, I didn't realize she was suicidal or something and the the character kind of says, oh, she's not. It's it's the opposite is to feel alive.

396
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Yeah. which is true for a good chunk of people who self harm. But yeah, we we never learn what her trauma is, just that there is some

397
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there is some.

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But that's all you need to know really. We don't need to be um and that's just one thing I I also love about this film is that we're not overloaded with exposition. The information sort of eaked out as and when we need it.

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Yeah.

400
00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:40,000
And if we don't need it, we don't get it. And that's fine. Um the the I can't remember her name. The one who dies first. One who's like taken by the bear. Um she's lost a kid to leukemia.

401
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,000
So yeah, they all have they're all carrying something. There's an element of nihilism, I think, in all of them.

402
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:42,000
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

403
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:43,000
But the thing that kicks this whole thing off is that um Kane has been missing for a year. Nobody's heard from him, knows where he is, but he just randomly shows up by back at home.

404
00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:44,000
But he's got worms in him.

405
00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:45,000
He's got brain worms. But not in an RFK Junior way.

406
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,000
Is that what's wrong with him?

407
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,000
I wonder what it was.

408
00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:48,000
Pick a thing. Pick a struggle. It could be any number of things. You see the video of him recently just like picking up a snake in his backyard.

409
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:49,000
No,

410
00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:50,000
he's insane. He's not right.

411
00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:51,000
I know. That's why I don't watch videos about him.

412
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:52,000
But I can't I kind of can't wait for the movie. That's about his life because it's going to be fascinating.

413
00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,000
I don't think they're going to do that, are they?

414
00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:54,000
Somebody will one day. Yeah,

415
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:55,000
about RFK. I think I feel like he'll get out of office and no one will remember him at all.

416
00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:56,000
But I think I No, I don't think that's true. He's such a weird character. I think we need somebody like a Craig Gillespie to do it or even a Matt Johnson

417
00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:57,000
where they take like a really comedic tack on the whole thing.

418
00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:58,000
Yeah, now you sold me when you when you spoke about MJ. Yeah.

419
00:06:58,000 --> 00:06:59,000
Not that one.

420
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:00,000
The good one.

421
00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:01,000
The one that didn't touch children. Allegedly. Allegedly.

422
00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:02,000
Don't want to get sued by the House of Jackson. Sierra,

423
00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:03,000
no. They've got considerably more money than we do.

424
00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:04,000
But yeah, I think Natalie Portman's reaction would be the same as mine if Oscar Isaac unexpectedly showed up in my house.

425
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:05,000
Yeah.

426
00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:06,000
Shock mixed with pure delight.

427
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:07,000
Yeah. Oh, my my trousers appear to have disintegrated. Isaac.

428
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,000
Oh no, you're bleeding from your eyes. Let's get you to a hospital.

429
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,000
This has gone horribly wrong.

430
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:10,000
Um, yeah, there's some theories about that actually that I want to touch on

431
00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:11,000
about Oscar Isaac.

432
00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:12,000
The fact that, yeah, when he shows up, he basically descends very quickly into organ like multiple organ failure

433
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:13,000
and they can't figure out why. But there are theories that he's maybe like a third copy by that point and that that's why things are off. Um, there's so much going on in this film. I love it.

434
00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:14,000
Um, and we also very quickly, maybe like 10 minutes into the film, get that shot of Lena. Um, well, you see her hands through the glass of water.

435
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:15,000
Yeah.

436
00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:16,000
And that's our first introduction to this idea of refraction, which again is done so well. But this idea of, you know, uh, copies that are opposite or a little bit off.

437
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:17,000
Mirror image.

438
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,000
Mirror image, but it's not quite right. And I love that. I think that's so so smart.

439
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:19,000
Again, I'm giving Alex Garland all of the credit here, but obviously Jeff Vanir demands quite a bit of it, I assume. I've never read the book, but certainly Alex Garland's recollections of it seem promising.

440
00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:20,000
Very interesting. Yeah.

441
00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:21,000
Yeah. How much would somebody have to pay you for you to decide to go into the shimmer.

442
00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:22,000
Depends what I have to do. Depends what I'm avoiding.

443
00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:23,000
Well, just your life is as it is now.

444
00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:24,000
I'll go for free.

445
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:25,000
I take offense to that. I take great offense.

446
00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:26,000
Um, no. It depends on my circumstances. If I am, for example, in Jennifer Jason Lee's position, I'll be running in there.

447
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:27,000
You want to see some cool s*** before you go.

448
00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:28,000
Absolutely.

449
00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:29,000
Yeah, I understand that.

450
00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:30,000
Um, um if I'm um but yeah, but maybe that's the point at which I go in. But otherwise, it's if no one's ever come out, then it's pretty risky, right? But I mean, I'll be curious.

451
00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,000
But Oscar Isaac came out.

452
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:32,000
That's true. Um probably not. What about you?

453
00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:33,000
I'm pretty skint so I would do it for a million.

454
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:34,000
Oh, wow. Okay. I probably Oh, you're giving me money. I forgot, aren't you? What's my number?

455
00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:35,000
Yeah.

456
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:36,000
Yeah. I'd do 500 quid. You're less hard up than me as well.

457
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:37,000
And cheap though.

458
00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,000
You could imag You could demand way more than that. I'm sure.

459
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,000
Yeah. I don't know. I think I don't think I would do it. No. If I'm being honest, I don't think I would do it. I'm too scared of the unknown. Even though it looks really pretty.

460
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,000
It's been there like three years, isn't it? In the um in the movie. In the book, it's more like 30 apparently,

461
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,000
right? Right. Is Is it Was it a meteor

462
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:42,000
originally?

463
00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:43,000
Uh what in the book?

464
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:44,000
I'm not sure. Well,

465
00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:45,000
what do you mean

466
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,000
in the film? Did they Did they touch on

467
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:47,000
We saw it. We saw it coming to the Earth. Wasn't it the opening?

468
00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:48,000
That's what I thought. So, was it It originated from a meteor.

469
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:49,000
I What does I mean, what's the definition? Is a meteor a rock?

470
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:50,000
Space debris that falls to Earth.

471
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:51,000
I think that that's the alien. I think it's alien. Yeah. Okay. I think it's just an organism that floats through.

472
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:52,000
It's Mo.

473
00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:53,000
Infinite. It's Mo. Yeah.

474
00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:54,000
Coming down in his egg.

475
00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:55,000
Played by Robin Williams. Yeah.

476
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:56,000
Landed and went nanoo nanoo and turned everything into flowers and f***** off.

477
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:57,000
Yeah.

478
00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:58,000
He uh so when he landed in in the lighthouse and he started the shimmer start his shimmer started spreading everywhere. Um yeah, I think that was I think that's I think that's the life form itself and it's some kind of I was thinking about like the panspermia situation where it's creat new life on this planet. Maybe whatever planet that that that particular thing lands on, it obviously changes what's already there. So if what's there is a single cell organism, maybe it starts dividing that single cell organism. So you could argue that that uh is that's what it's doing on other planets is populating them or help seeding giving them help giving them a nudge. The seeds for life might be already there. Um so I kept thinking about that in this film and and also like where It's going to end up 30 years down the line. This presumably this shimmer doesn't ever stop growing. It encompasses the entire planet and everyone is now just part of this same organism.

479
00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:59,000
Well, either assimilated or annihilated.

480
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:00,000
Yeah,

481
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,000
I guess those are your two options, aren't they?

482
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:02,000
Which are the same thing?

483
00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:03,000
No.

484
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:04,000
No,

485
00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:05,000
it's not the impression I get. No,

486
00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:06,000
I agree.

487
00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:07,000
I think annihilation looks very different. I think annihilation you cease to exist. I think that's what happened to interest at the end.

488
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:08,000
Yeah.

489
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:09,000
Whereas,

490
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:10,000
right? Yeah.

491
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,000
Like Lena and I've forgotten her name, but Tessa Thompson were sort of a little bit more open to it and responded less with violence. So, they were assimilated. That's my take.

492
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:12,000
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.

493
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:13,000
But yeah, you could argue that assimilation and annihilation are one and the same because you yourself cease to be in the capacity that you're familiar with. at least. So, it is an annihilation of self in that regard,

494
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:14,000
I guess. I don't know. You could sort of look at it like um Plurabis,

495
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:15,000
the TV show.

496
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:16,000
The TV show.

497
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:17,000
Yeah.

498
00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:18,000
Like if everything is assimilated, are you all one eventually? Like everything starts to merge and copy and

499
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:19,000
I don't know, maybe it's that kind of a deal when you're just all one consciousness by the end. Maybe, but maybe we are already and we just don't know it.

500
00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:20,000
This is a different conversation.

501
00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:21,000
I'm This is a Saturday afternoon.

502
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:22,000
The um so the I want to ask you about the the organism.

503
00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,000
Okay.

504
00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:24,000
And what your thoughts are about does it have motive? Is it trying to achieve anything or is it just simply existing? What's your feeling on that?

505
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,000
Well, they sort of they touch on that a little bit in the dialogue,

506
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,000
but they don't know the answers.

507
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:27,000
No, they don't. They don't have any concrete answers, but I think it's sort of hinted at quite heavily that it it just is that it doesn't have some grand plan. Um it's just ended up where it has and this is an organic process.

508
00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:28,000
That's where I land on it. I think it's I don't think it has any intentions, good or bad.

509
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,000
I don't think it's like I'm going to wipe about all of humanity. I think it's just I think it is just this organic thing that's ever changing and ever evolving and mutating.

510
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:30,000
I think that's a bit of a trap that we get as human beings which you and I by far Sarah are. It's a trap that sometimes

511
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,000
human beings would say.

512
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,000
I think um sometimes we get into a trap um of of thinking about things in the way that humans think about things

513
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:33,000
and assuming that all other life in the universe would think the same way.

514
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:34,000
Like Oh, it must be a curious. It must be coming here for a science reason or whatever. But like,

515
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:35,000
no, but you're assuming it's got exactly the same cognition and consciousness that we have.

516
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,000
Maybe it can't even see us. Yeah. Maybe it's it senses us on some level.

517
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,000
Maybe it's like Rocky from Project Hail Mary.

518
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,000
Yeah. Fisting everyone.

519
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:39,000
Yeah.

520
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:40,000
But it can't see.

521
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:41,000
It doesn't have eyes.

522
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:42,000
Yeah. Because

523
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,000
sense.

524
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,000
Depends on the environment in which it's um evolved. And it's the same with us. We is best suited to that environment.

525
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:45,000
We see what is suit relevant for us to see. There's a bunch of s*** we don't see

526
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:46,000
because it helps us survive in this environment.

527
00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:47,000
It's too much information for us. Our tiny brains as as complex and interesting as they are, the universe is even more so. So to be able to have a filter is completely necessary. So we forget that other beings Oh, my phone's gone off there. Top stories, someone's been killed. Hopefully it's Far allegedly

528
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,000
or RFK Junior. Yeah. What was I saying?

529
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:49,000
The rights to his life story might be cheaper at that point.

530
00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:50,000
Um, but yeah, no, I think we because we always think about things in human terms, but in reality, if there is another uh if there's an alien somewhere of another civilization, the probability is that they're probably going to be very very different to us and have completely different motives, if any. And I think that's that's what something I like about this film is is thinking about an alien in a very different way.

531
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:51,000
Yeah.

532
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:52,000
Almost almost like a

533
00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,000
like what's its motivation? Does it even have one?

534
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,000
It feels it feels like a a like a like a mold or or a cancer in of itself. Um which is interesting because they obviously cancer is something that keeps coming up in this in this film and it's a I think it's obviously cancer is a terrible thing and it it kills humans and it's it's horrible, right? Um

535
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:55,000
but from a scientific perspective of it is also fascinating the way that it kind of divides and conquers healthy cells and

536
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,000
and absorbs things.

537
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:57,000
The cancer is not right, it's my job to kill humans today.

538
00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:58,000
It's not evil.

539
00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,000
No, it's

540
00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:00,000
it's we ascribe that ethical um we ascribe that morality to it,

541
00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:01,000
but it's just it just exists. It just is.

542
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,000
Yeah.

543
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:03,000
And it's just trying to survive like all of us.

544
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:04,000
Yeah.

545
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,000
So, it's I I it's it was interesting to look at this alien from at those sort of perspectives and that's where I land. I don't think there's any intention of it. I don't think it's trying to kill anyone. I think if it does harm people, it's completely by accident. If it's there's a a beautiful outcome. For instance, Tess Thompson has one of the most interesting and probably uh satisfying deaths maybe in film. Just like you just turn into flowers.

546
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,000
Yeah.

547
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:07,000
Lovely.

548
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:08,000
That's okay with that.

549
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,000
I continue to exist but as flowers.

550
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:10,000
Yeah. I didn't That's the best we can hope for.

551
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:11,000
Yeah. I people would enjoy looking at me more than they do now. Yeah, I agree. I agree. That's why I like it though, cuz there are so few films that deal with the philosophical stuff like this does. That's what I want more of. Not just the weird s***. I want the philosophical conversations surrounding it as well.

552
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:12,000
They're the things that that pique my interest more and that's why I really um

553
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,000
really get on with Alex. films cuz there's always something very interesting at the heart of it whether it's

554
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:14,000
all all we've spoken about all the stuff already but

555
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:15,000
and this is this is uh the same there's there's loads to dig into but also you know from a philosophical perspective but also it does have that weird s*** in it as well

556
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,000
so you're not boxes

557
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:17,000
it does tick a lot of boxes and um

558
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:18,000
there's some really there's some super memorable stuff I think I can understand why

559
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,000
a marketing executive would have gone Well, we need to push the body horror angle because they there is body horror in this.

560
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:20,000
Oh, there's some incredible horror sequences.

561
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:21,000
I mean, really memorable.

562
00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:22,000
I bet Croninberg loved this film.

563
00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:23,000
Yeah.

564
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,000
But yeah, some really memorable stuff. The the the most memorable thing probably is the bear, right?

565
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,000
I think so. What the the creature that's saying, "Help me."

566
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:26,000
Yeah. Whatever.

567
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,000
Horrifying.

568
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,000
The skull bear thing. Yeah.

569
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,000
That's merged with the final moments of the person that the bear was eating.

570
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,000
Yes.

571
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:31,000
Yeah.

572
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:32,000
Yeah.

573
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:33,000
Is that a replication of that emotion and feeling or is that part of her that's gone into the thing?

574
00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:34,000
Well, that's that's what's that's kind of the beauty of this film. It could be either

575
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:35,000
or both. In fact, like death doesn't necessarily mean that that person ceased to exist. Much like in real life, you know, death is the end for your cont. iousness, but not for your matter,

576
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:36,000
not for your atoms.

577
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,000
You just turn into something else.

578
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:38,000
Yeah. Like you can't kill the atoms.

579
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:39,000
I find that fascinating and kind of beautiful.

580
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,000
Yeah, I totally agree with you.

581
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:41,000
And it gives me comfort when I think about death in that way.

582
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,000
Me, too. I I've never needed like a another story, you know, and it doesn't need to continue in that way. It would be nice if it did. Um But I think just the fact that most likely we will probably just die and there'll be nothing. The fact that you we're made from things that already exist and we're here and experiencing it and then we'll stop to exist on a conscious level but everything else is still out there and becomes part of the can be maybe part of me will be in another person one day.

583
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,000
I don't like the way you said that.

584
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:44,000
I didn't say that's not how I meant it. All right. Sounds like some sort of sexual threat, Dan. No, I I agree. I love that sort of stuff. And I hearing you talk just then was kind of reminded me of that um monologue, one of the many monologues that Mike Flanigan wrote in Midnight Mass.

585
00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:45,000
I think about that all the time.

586
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:46,000
Yeah, me too.

587
00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:47,000
Yeah.

588
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:48,000
I like What was your favorite weird s*** in this movie then? Is it bear or was it

589
00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:49,000
or or or most interesting. What What thing do you want to talk about?

590
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:50,000
It depends on your definition of weird because one of my favorite things was when they discovered like the flower people, the plant people, and they were sort of saying, well, their theory was that they would have like human DNA sequences or

591
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:51,000
a hawk hawk gene. Yeah.

592
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,000
That sort of determines our form, I guess.

593
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:53,000
Um, and that they suspect Ed, these plants would have the human hawk gene.

594
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:54,000
Fascinating.

595
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:55,000
Never seen that before.

596
00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,000
No. No. But it's such a an incredible visual

597
00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:57,000
and quite chilling actually.

598
00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:58,000
But it was super fun to be um well in any department I would say on this movie, but partic particularly in set design.

599
00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,000
Yeah, definitely.

600
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:00,000
Interesting. And it was shot in the UK. Did you know that?

601
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,000
I I knew most of it was. Was it all?

602
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,000
I believe so. Certainly all of the forest stuff. All of the shadow stuff.

603
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,000
Yeah, I know. They intended to shoot in the States, I believe, but then had to change things because they

604
00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,000
um the the forest stuff just didn't look as good on camera. They didn't get the depth that they wanted. So, yeah. I know some of it was in Norfolk, wasn't it?

605
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:05,000
I don't know, actually. I don't know exactly where.

606
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,000
Um it wouldn't surprise me if the beach stuff was in the UK as well. It looked quite British.

607
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,000
It did. Yeah. The lighthouse feel felt very British as well.

608
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:08,000
Yeah.

609
00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:09,000
Um

610
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:10,000
do you think there was Um, do you think there was a copy of William Defoe at the top?

611
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:11,000
Yeah. Lanking onto a crab or something.

612
00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:12,000
Yeah.

613
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:13,000
Slow dancing with Robert Patterson.

614
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:14,000
Singing a sea shantzy.

615
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:15,000
That's the crossover I never knew I needed.

616
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,000
Something else that I I imagery wise I keep thinking about. I was confused. All of the weird s*** I would say is super super interesting. Yeah.

617
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,000
Crocodile. whatever it is. I always I keep thinking about the um the soldier that's that they see in the in the empty swimming pool who is halfway into some kind of flower butthole and he's just limbs and everything are everywhere and so

618
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:18,000
spread out spreading out like Thank you. Um it's very I think I think I said this when I was watching it when we were watching it together but it reminded me so much of the Last of Us.

619
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,000
You name checked The Last of Us a couple times during this viewing because some of the music was quite

620
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:20,000
um similar. as well.

621
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:21,000
Yeah. Um, so I got I got those vibes quite a lot. Obviously, since this movie's come out, we've had an actual live action adaptation of The Last of Us, and I think that is quite a lot like Annihilation.

622
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,000
Yeah, I agree. Of course. But the I I love that exploration of um human organic matter and plant organic matter sort of fusing.

623
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:23,000
That's it makes for some incredible visuals. Yeah.

624
00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:24,000
Across both of those projects,

625
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:25,000
we first did we first see it with the Is it the deer that has just has a tree growing out of his head?

626
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:26,000
Well, yeah, there's two of them.

627
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:27,000
And there's two of them.

628
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,000
And they're sort of moving in unison

629
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:29,000
synchronicity.

630
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:30,000
Yeah.

631
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:31,000
Yeah. Which sort of in a way kind of mirrors the scene at the end with um Lena and her double.

632
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:32,000
Love it. I love this movie. Have I mentioned that? It's so good. Do you think the shimmer is an ally? Just given that we're recording this at the start of Pride Month, it's a conversation that I want to have.

633
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,000
You think the shimmer is an ally?

634
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:34,000
Yeah.

635
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:35,000
Well, we've already sort of established that the Shimmer doesn't really have any um uh motivation either way. So, I I don't think it's it's neither an ally nor foe. Why do you why do you ask?

636
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:36,000
Well, because I think there are some strong arguments to be made that there are some pro-LGBTQIA+ readings of this film.

637
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:37,000
Oh, okay.

638
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:38,000
Especially in the the idea of like metamorphosis and who even is your true self and I don't know, there's some interesting stuff going on there. And also um a ton of rainbows. Like the shimmer is

639
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:39,000
Yeah.

640
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:40,000
basically a big old pride flag.

641
00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:41,000
But I don't know. I think I think that's the mark of a really well-made film that you can have there are multiple potential readings that you can take from it.

642
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:42,000
It gives you just enough to to make it interesting.

643
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:43,000
Yeah. And I when I I'm sort of half joking when I talk about the LGBTQ plus stuff. Um I'm not saying that that's not a valid reading. I think it is, but I don't think any of it was intended. And I am of course joking about the shimmer being rainbows.

644
00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:44,000
I'm glad you cleared that up.

645
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:45,000
But I don't know. I I thought about that earlier and it struck me as quite interesting.

646
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,000
What do you think about the performances in this? We ran through the cast, but we haven't really talked about the performances.

647
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:47,000
I really enjoy Natalie Portman and Jennifer Jason Lee.

648
00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:48,000
I hate Dan prick.

649
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:49,000
Dan's the But the actors probably very good because the actor the character was meant to be a prick.

650
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:50,000
Yeah, but my accent Claxonom was going off in the back of my brain.

651
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:51,000
Did he have an accent?

652
00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:52,000
Well, he was speaking in an American accent. accent, but my brain was just going, he's British. I think he's British.

653
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,000
I I forgot to verify, but

654
00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:54,000
yeah,

655
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,000
that's always distracting.

656
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:56,000
You're definitely going to be right there. What about do you What performance sticks out to you?

657
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,000
Well, Portman obviously is the gold standard here. She's fantastic when she shot that weapon at that crocodile.

658
00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:58,000
He's really hot.

659
00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:59,000
It's kind of hot,

660
00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:00,000
right?

661
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,000
Yeah.

662
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,000
But one thing I will say is I find it distracting whenever Natalie Portman's in anything because I'm always reminded of what a loser Moby is. And then I can't stop thinking about that.

663
00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:03,000
Well, he did have any problem, didn't he?

664
00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,000
No, he told people he did. She adamantly denies it.

665
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,000
Why would you dress crazy?

666
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:06,000
I don't know.

667
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,000
Movie.

668
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,000
But I'm always reminded of that whenever I see her and I I'm got it for her to have that association.

669
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:09,000
Whenever you bring up Moby, my brain only ever hears the name Moby said in David Lynch's voice.

670
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:10,000
Oh. saw a video about a year ago where they were doing something some collaboration together and David just kept going, "Hey, Mulby, if you just move over there and just the fact that he was calling him Moby in in David Lynch's own accent was very amusing to me." So, whenever I hear Moby, I hear David Lynch going, "Mobby, hey, Mulby."

671
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,000
That's weird because I hear Adam Boxton's voice in my head. Moby, Moby,

672
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:12,000
John Malovich.

673
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:13,000
So, yeah. They're coming at that from very different places. Are there any other performances that stand out to you? Oscar Isaac doesn't really get a whole lot to do.

674
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:14,000
No, he's not in it that much.

675
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:15,000
I did I did read that he was also um filming Force Awakens at exactly the same time. Like he had the same trailer and would film for both movies on the same day sometimes.

676
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,000
So I think that sort of gives you a good indication of the fact that he wasn't Like it wasn't a character you needed to get lost in in order to make it good, I think is what I'm saying.

677
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,000
It wasn't really it wasn't about him.

678
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:18,000
No,

679
00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:19,000
he he he helped um serve as a catalyst for the story if you like.

680
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,000
Oh, an inverse Nolan.

681
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:21,000
I like it.

682
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:22,000
Yeah. But um but it wasn't really you didn't he didn't he didn't he was he was very good because it was Oscar Isaac and he came on and you understood a lot about character and and the the sadness and the um tension. There was obviously some tension between those two as well in certain scenes.

683
00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:23,000
I think he did a pretty good job of very clearly delineating between flashback Kane and current

684
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:24,000
Kane. Yeah, that's a really good point actually. Yeah, it was a very marketked difference between those two performances.

685
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:25,000
Yeah.

686
00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:26,000
Um one quite flat and one obviously human. Yeah. And you could tell the difference between those two characters. Not necessarily Um, or I don't know actually what the ending means. We won't get into that.

687
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:27,000
Okay.

688
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:28,000
There was a couple of things we put a pin in earlier that I've forgotten about. What were they, Sarah?

689
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:29,000
Oh, good lord. Am I going to have to start taking notes during the recordings now?

690
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:30,000
I think so.

691
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:31,000
I've forgotten. Don't put me on the spot like that.

692
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:32,000
So, sorry.

693
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,000
As though my brain isn't also full of holes like a goddamn civ. But yeah, I think I think all of the performances are so solid and so well founded in this and I think obviously he's working with talented actors but it probably also speaks to Garin's talents as a director. Well, he he in this interview that I watched this morning he um he he he mentioned about the various people that come in and working on a film and it's not director is not the be all and end all. Everyone brings different things to it. It depends on your perspective on who how much involvement those people have. But one thing he said is when act actors come on board, it then becomes their character and they'll add things that you never thought to add. So, he's allow clearly is allowing enough freedom there um to bring a performance.

694
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:34,000
They're the best kind of directors, the ones that kind of are open to it being collaborative, I think.

695
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:35,000
Yeah. It's like you're work we're all working within this thing because this is what we're trying to achieve and as long as the director has communicated that, which is probably most of their job, then and the actor has agreed and then you have this sort of contract that your your both agreeing to serve the story. As long as that those character choices do that and they don't they don't Jim Carry the s*** out of it, then um then that's great, you know. So, it's all about the subtleties. I think and I think you get that quite a lot in his films.

696
00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:36,000
Yeah.

697
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:37,000
And um I just think I think my main ones is Portman, Jennifer Jason Lee. It's their show. I think it's mostly Portman mostly Portman's show.

698
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:38,000
Would you consider Alex Garland to be an experienced director at this point or Oh, at the point at which he made Annihilation.

699
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:39,000
Um, well, the point he made Annihilation, well, this was his second movie.

700
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,000
Well, that's what I movie is directed, but he he he worked in

701
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:41,000
uh in film for about 15 years at that point. Um, was 2018? No, probably more like 20 years.

702
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:42,000
Wow. Okay.

703
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:43,000
After obviously because these novels were adapted and I assume there was a certain amount of Well, it definitely would have been talking to directors and producers and stuff. So, He was involved in the process for a long time and then Xmachina was his first true directing credit uh which was 2015. There are rumors that yeah whenever um there were rumors that he co-directed Dread.

704
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:44,000
Oh yeah.

705
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,000
But I don't know how much truth there is to that. It could just be nothing.

706
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,000
I mean do you know what though? Visually some of that would make sense.

707
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:47,000
Yeah.

708
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,000
Especially there's some over between that and annihilation. I'm thinking specifically of like the drug sequences in Dread,

709
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:49,000
right? The slow-mo stuff.

710
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:50,000
Yeah. Like I could see that being true.

711
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:51,000
I guess who knows?

712
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,000
I think on paper you would say no, he wasn't an experienced director, but I think Yeah, absolutely. Because he does it's not like not a director. I don't know what f*** I'm talking about really. But it's not like you do a job and then you learn everything on that job while we're doing it. Ideally, you've learned a bunch of stuff beforehand which has led up to your experience. So I think he had enough experience clearly. I first directed uh directing credit being exmina. Um so yeah, I think he was pretty I I think he had enough experience for this.

713
00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,000
I mean he seems like a very assured director. I will say that. But I think the this film is so stunning to look at. I think this film is gorgeous.

714
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:54,000
And some of the composition of the shots is like stellar. There are there are shots in this that could be a painting. just gorgeous. And I I I guess I was just wondering how much credit to give him versus DP cinematographer. Like obviously it's it's a group project. All films a group project

715
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:55,000
and it's different if each project's different as well.

716
00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:56,000
Yeah. But I think

717
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:57,000
for a second directorial feature impeccable.

718
00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:58,000
Yeah.

719
00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,000
They don't come much better than that. The end.

720
00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:00,000
That's the point I wanted to make. But yeah, I just think So much of this film is beautiful. I think some of the stuff you t you've touched on already like the merging of the human matter um or just organic matter, human and plant like uh very reminiscent of what we've seen since in the Last of Us, that kind of thing. But it's just beautiful but really chilling at the same time. It's so unique.

721
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:01,000
It's the It's the cosmic horror angle, isn't it? It's the

722
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:02,000
Which is interesting. say that because I I hear this get talked about in the same breath as The Color Out of Space

723
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:03,000
quite a lot.

724
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:04,000
Yeah, I buy that for a dollar.

725
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:05,000
Quite similar stories in a lot of ways.

726
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:06,000
Yeah, it's like um but the threat is not really aware. I like the idea that the threat isn't is potentially not really aware of what it's doing and we don't understand it and and the only reason we feel that it's bad is because it's an ending to to what we think we are.

727
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:07,000
Yeah.

728
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:08,000
But it's the beginning of something else. So, you've got the

729
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:09,000
Well, it's the ending of what we're familiar with.

730
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,000
Yeah. Exactly.

731
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:11,000
What we're really scared of is the unknown,

732
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:12,000
but it depends on your perspective on whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

733
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:13,000
Yeah.

734
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,000
Like to someone else or or some other being,

735
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:15,000
it's not going to care that my consciousness has stop suddenly stopped existing.

736
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:16,000
They're just going to go, "Oh, cool. We like flowers. I'm glad that thing happened that made me see these flowers."

737
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:17,000
Yeah.

738
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:18,000
Whereas I'm like, "What the f***, man? I'm gone."

739
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:19,000
But that's what I really like about this. Um it's that am not ambiguity but uh I don't know it's the it's the way I feel about everything really just it's unknowable.

740
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:20,000
Yeah.

741
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:21,000
And there is no good or bad. There was just stuff and we have to adjust to it accordingly

742
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,000
and it's fun to

743
00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:23,000
have conversations like this and indulge in a bit of conjecture because none of us really know.

744
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:24,000
But I think something else quickly that I want to mention that this film does really really well is just attention to detail. And one of the things that I think it makes it for such a rewarding rewatch are these little things that you don't necessarily notice the first time.

745
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:25,000
Like the tattoo that you pointed out to me.

746
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:26,000
The tattoo.

747
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,000
I didn't pick that up.

748
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,000
Well, there's a scene in which like current Lena is being interviewed by Benedict Wong and you see a tattoo on her forearm, but we we know she doesn't have a tattoo there. So immediately we know something's off. And then further into the film, it's sort of revealed that that's same forearm tattoo is on Gina Rodriguez's character. So you know that there's been some mutation and some copying going on already. Um but I thought that was just a really nice visual representation of it

749
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:29,000
that's that's super subtle. Like it's absolutely not shoved in your face either.

750
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,000
Um and on further research I realized cuz I wanted to know what the tattoo was. It looked like infinity symbol to me. Um or or a figure eight, which kind of is the same thing. Um

751
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:31,000
yeah, a snake eating its own.

752
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:32,000
But yeah, but I didn't realize it was a snake. It's a or a Boros.

753
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:33,000
L Rob or Ross.

754
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:34,000
Or a Boros. Um but in an infinity symbol. Such a cool idea for a tattoo. I have to say I'm tempted. But just the notion of the fact that it's not just an Our Boros, which would be like traditionally would be a circle. It's also an infinity symbol. I love it.

755
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:35,000
Yeah,

756
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:36,000
I love it. Of all the things it could have been, that's so cool.

757
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:37,000
Um, but also little details that I didn't actually pick up on until the third viewing, this viewing. Um, one that sticks out in my mind is when they when they end up at I can't remember what it's called, something reach, and they find the video camera,

758
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,000
but they find the video camera with um Kane's military unit. and he's kind of cutting the guy's stomach open and the

759
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:39,000
intestines worms.

760
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:40,000
But there's a scene in which towards the end um Lena finds another another tape when she's in the lighthouse and it's Kane again, but his his accent is completely different.

761
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:41,000
Yeah, I noticed that actually.

762
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,000
I didn't notice it until this viewing. Like he's he's gone super southern.

763
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:43,000
Southern. Yeah.

764
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:44,000
I'd love to know who's choice that was because that sort of gave me chills like when you just see pro the progression and how much like what which number copy are they up to?

765
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:45,000
Yeah.

766
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,000
What's changed at this point fundamentally? It's it's so interesting.

767
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:47,000
Yeah. But that's what I was going to starting to say earlier where it they give you just enough to to make it feel like a complete story but not so much that it's kind of set in its own boundaries and there's you can't really go outside of it. Like you can all have your own theories and thoughts. about it.

768
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:48,000
Yeah,

769
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,000
that is definitely something that makes this film interesting.

770
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:50,000
Yeah.

771
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,000
And

772
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:52,000
like you say, make rewatches satisfying and to have a discussion about it because you can speculate about these things and the fact that there isn't really an answer

773
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,000
is um is in keeping with the the themes of the film as well, the nature of of everything that's going on. So, it's it's

774
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,000
it's a really it's a really good it's a really good movie. It's not my favorite Garland,

775
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,000
but it's up there. It's up there. It's

776
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,000
Devs.

777
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:57,000
Oh, yeah. Of course you said.

778
00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:58,000
It's not a film. It's not. No,

779
00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,000
but it's it's sort of a long film. But um but yeah, this is definitely up there. It's it's difficult because I like almost all of these stuff. I would say

780
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:00,000
I think Garland sort of makes films that are really effortlessly cool as well. And I won't elaborate on that.

781
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,000
Yeah, I agree with that. And I won't elaborate on your point either because that would be mansplaining or something, wouldn't it? Is that what it is? No, it's when you give instructions to someone who already knows the answers. Yeah.

782
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:02,000
Yeah.

783
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:03,000
I have no

784
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:04,000
Now I'm manplaining man.

785
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:05,000
Oh, there's layers.

786
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,000
But yeah, the last little thing that I that I love is and something that I didn't notice until the third viewing is the fact that the house, the abandoned house that they end up in in the shimmer,

787
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:07,000
the lighthouse,

788
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:08,000
no, the abandoned house where the skull bear Yes.

789
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:09,000
thing um is the same layout as Lena and Kane's house.

790
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,000
Ah,

791
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:11,000
Lena, sorry.

792
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:12,000
Right. So, that's a like a a copy as well of some of some sorts.

793
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,000
Copies. Copies of copies.

794
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:14,000
So, is this place also manifesting things from thoughts? Like physical things from thoughts?

795
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:15,000
Who knows?

796
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:16,000
Where does that end up? That's super interesting to speculate about.

797
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:17,000
I don't know. But

798
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,000
our thoughts.

799
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,000
It's It's interesting that you say that because um obviously minor spoiler, but not really. Um some of that there's just some crossover. with back rooms that came out recently.

800
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:20,000
Do you know the Liinal space movie?

801
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:21,000
Yeah.

802
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,000
So interesting. Very interesting.

803
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:23,000
Very good.

804
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:24,000
I think this movie is excellent.

805
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:25,000
I agree. I think it's very good too. I would love to see a sequel.

806
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:26,000
Would you really? Would I? But

807
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:27,000
of course not.

808
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,000
In it has actually made me want to read the book.

809
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,000
Yeah, I would. I'm pretty I don't read stories often. Um if I'm going to read it, which is pretty rare, But if I'm going to read, it's going to be a book about how films have been made. Yeah, that's the word. I don't even know the name for it.

810
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:30,000
So, why?

811
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:31,000
But um yeah, so I think the the last story book I wrote read might have been um The Lost World, Jurassic Park 25 years ago.

812
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,000
Maybe um it's in your fate to become an author.

813
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,000
Yeah.

814
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:34,000
And you'll be like G Mangi who's written more books than he's read.

815
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:35,000
Yeah.

816
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:36,000
Um but if there was one, and I've heard that the first one's relatively small, book as well.

817
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:37,000
Okay. Well, there you go then.

818
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:38,000
Maybe maybe

819
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:39,000
get it done in an afternoon.

820
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:40,000
But then part of me is like, well, I've seen this adaptation. Why would I want to read another thing that's the same thing? Or I know it's different, but

821
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,000
but if I'm I'm so different to you in that regard because if I if I watch a film that I love, I will quite often go back and read the book. Um, and the same is true if I read a book, I want to watch an adapt adaptation of it because if I like something, I just want more of that thing.

822
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:42,000
Yeah.

823
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:43,000
I want the next thing.

824
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:44,000
Yeah. Which is very representative of our personalities.

825
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:45,000
Yeah. I'm done.

826
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:46,000
I'm done next.

827
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:47,000
Yeah. Exactly.

828
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,000
Whereas I'm just like comfort in the same things.

829
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,000
Yeah.

830
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:50,000
But it it has made me want to read the book so I can sort of figure out where this story goes.

831
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,000
Yeah. I mean, look, if you get the book and you read it and you go, "Dan, you're going to love this." Then yeah, I'll probably I'll probably give it a go.

832
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:52,000
I seem to remember when this film came out, there was some talk about Alex Garland potentially um adapting the other books,

833
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,000
but I don't know if that was just people hoping that he would or him having said that he had an interest in it.

834
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:54,000
I like that this is a standalone.

835
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:55,000
I think there are some there are some films not if he chose to do it

836
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,000
and then I would be fine with it because I know that he wouldn't do it unless he was absolutely confident he had something interesting to say. Yes.

837
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:57,000
And bring to it.

838
00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,000
Um but I don't believe that that's probably ever going to happen. And as it is, I don't think it should. I think I think it's it it tells the story that it wants to tell you.

839
00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:59,000
It shows us new things. It ends on a an ambiguous note,

840
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:00,000
but also

841
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,000
but it's also it's a closed story.

842
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:02,000
It's a closed story. Yeah.

843
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:03,000
But the ambi ambiguity is something a lot of audience people uh audience members had an issue with initially.

844
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:04,000
I mean, what the ambiguity being

845
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,000
that we're not fed all of the answers. We don't know everything. Some people want to know everything so that they can pin it.

846
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:06,000
What things aren't answered though that I mean it's outside of what this thing is and where it's come from and why it's here. I guess that's a big thing. Yeah,

847
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:07,000
that's what people want to know.

848
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:08,000
Yeah, I guess so. I just that just never occurred to me as being a problem or actually I found out that was the one of the most interesting things about it.

849
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,000
No, I think this film is um a closed loop like an aura

850
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:10,000
Boros. Yeah. Yeah.

851
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,000
I think it tells the story it wants to in a very satisfying way. And I'm good with a little bit of ambiguity.

852
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,000
I enjoy that because it

853
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:13,000
makes me think

854
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:14,000
a little bit more. It makes me

855
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,000
ponder

856
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:16,000
what the answers might be.

857
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:17,000
Yeah, it does force you to think about things a bit more. But I think this is just ambiguous. Ambiguous enough. I don't think it's massively ambiguous, but outside of those things that I mentioned, but there's enough there. And the way that it ends, it ends on a note to make you think, well, what's going to happen next? But Not in a way that I must see it, just in a way that it's interesting to think about.

858
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:18,000
Like we touched on earlier, where does this thing end?

859
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:19,000
Are we better now? Is does this does this actually make us better? Is this a good thing? Is this a bad thing? I don't really land either way on that. I think it's just a thing that's happened. And um

860
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:20,000
I could do with being a little bit less emotional.

861
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:21,000
Yeah,

862
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,000
I'd be open to it.

863
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:23,000
Um and she the movie ends and you see a little bit of a shimmer in her eye.

864
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,000
So there's question about who she is, you know, how much of original Lena is there, what's remaining

865
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:25,000
or even they don't know

866
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:26,000
honest she being does she even know? So like that's the that I guess that's the ambiguous nature of that ending.

867
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:27,000
But again fine with it

868
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:28,000
fine

869
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,000
and we get that gorgeous sequence of her and the dancer kind of

870
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,000
mimicking one another which gave me big under the skin vibes for some reason.

871
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:31,000
Yeah.

872
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,000
But yeah, I will continue to watch this film. It's It's not going to be super regularly, but I enjoy it a lot. I think more people should watch it. I think more people should be open to

873
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:33,000
a little bit of ambiguity and a little, you know, this is about as far away from a second screen as you can imagine. And I think we're kind of crying out for that at the moment.

874
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:34,000
I totally agree. I don't I don't think I think if Alex Garland made a second screen, he'd come out in some sort of rash. I don't think he's I don't think he's even capable of that.

875
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:35,000
No. And I think that yeah, I totally agree. This is maybe the best example of a movie that you must give your focus to.

876
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:36,000
Yeah, it feels old-fashioned in a way. It's like it's a proper movie. It's a real movie.

877
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,000
It's what movies should be. It's it's it's

878
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:38,000
it's interesting and detailed and rewarding as long as you're paying attention. If you're not, then you're going to hate it. You're going to go, "Why the f*** is this happening?"

879
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,000
Gen Z might not enjoy it.

880
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,000
Yeah. Who cares? Um Yeah. Good. one. Good one. It's a good one to end to to have in a penny position,

881
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:41,000
I think. So, we do have one more.

882
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,000
We do have one more. What are we doing for the final episode, Sarah?

883
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,000
Well, this is all for you, baby.

884
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,000
Is it?

885
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:45,000
Yeah.

886
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:46,000
Cuz you're not a fan of John Carpenter.

887
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:47,000
I'm a massive fan of John Carpenter. Look, it's not it's not 100% altruistic,

888
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:48,000
but I did choose this with you in mind because I know it's one of your favorites of his. We're covering Prince of Darkness. Yeah, about bloody time.

889
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:49,000
We had to