Kathleen Smith 00:49
Welcome everyone, and here is another episode of Security Cleared Jobs: Who’s Hiring & How. I'm flying solo today. But what better way to fly solo than having as my guest, a very dear friend? So today, we are speaking with Doug Munro, Senior Talent Acquisition Specialist with Information Management Group or IMG. Doug, it's so great to see you and have you on the show today.
Doug Munro 01:15
Thank you for having me. And it is fantastic to see you, Kathleen.
Kathleen Smith 01:20
So for the audience, Doug and I have known each other for at least two decades. And that is one of the things that I love about the government contracting community, is we are a network. We are a community, and we help each other out all the time. Doug himself has helped me out at many of the BSides and many of the hacker conferences. If we ever need an expert on cleared technical certifications or backgrounds, Doug is our expert, and he is also now working with Tim Strike over at IMG. Tim Strike is another dear friend who we recognized over 15 years ago for his recruiting leadership. So it's just a great day for me. But let's make sure that our audience knows sort of your origin story, your diverse background in becoming a recruiter. So what was your journey like coming to IMG? I know about it, but tell our audience.
Doug Munro 02:17
It has been quite a road, quite a few twists and turns. Like most of us in this world, I did not wake up as an eight-year-old and decide this career and this path. Recruiting was not really on my radar. For many years, I worked in the bar industry. For quite a while, I was a mortgage broker. Tried to sneak into doing voiceovers. And then I was doing some political fundraising. And the gentleman who had sort of brought me into that also happened to own a recruiting staffing firm. And as that campaign wound down and I was looking for the next gig, he suggested, would you be interested in working as a recruiter? And again, having no idea what he was talking about, I thought, well, what the heck? I’ll try something new. And the rest is history. Never really looked back. It just was a fit. The idea that you were able to help people, put them into positions that were going to make them happy, you were helping businesses grow. And then, perhaps as significantly as anything, I think I really found a joy and connection to the mission. And to your point about Tim Strike, he is a gentleman I work with, and he is fantastic. And it's really been great, because who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks? I've learned a few things from him in the last few months.
Kathleen Smith 03:35
Yeah, as you point out, the mission is something that drives a lot of us in this community, and you find camaraderie with other recruiters, other program managers, other people in general, who are supporting the mission. You may work for competitive companies, but at the end of the day, you're all working for the same mission. So thank you for bringing that up. So IMG has been in business for almost 40 years, and what a great milestone that is. What sort of contracts and work does IMG do in the cleared community?
Doug Munro 04:09
We are primarily focused in IT, ancillary work in cybersecurity, but we are on several large contracts where we are a subcontractor. So there's all sorts of ancillary positions that do. It's an ever-changing landscape in that regard. But for instance, we are always looking for network engineers in Northern Virginia. And then we also have -- what I found really fascinating -- our single biggest customer is the Department of Energy in a particular enclave within DOE. They set it up as almost a SETA contract. So effectively, once we win the work, we are the prime but there are all sorts of contracts, some large, some small. They can be as small as one person, as just a contract mod. But we do all sorts of stuff. We've got significant service desk support that we offer them. And we're doing data engineering work for them, software engineering work for them. Again, quite a bit of infrastructure. It's ever-evolving. One of the really nice things about the SETA nature of this contract is that once you prove yourself capable of staffing, and in some cases pretty challenging positions and locations, they keep looking to you to do more work.
Kathleen Smith 05:22
That is wonderful. It’s one of the intricacies of government contracting work that a lot of people don't understand. So you mentioned network engineers and IT professionals. What are some of the job titles and positions? Let's pick two or three that are your run-of-the-mill that you're always looking for and then let's think about one or two that are very unique that you're looking for.
Doug Munro 05:47
We are always looking for fully cleared systems administrators and network engineers in Maryland. And then we're always looking for network engineers and network administrators in Northern Virginia. Those at the CI polygraph level. And then that also does extend location-wise to some national work -- Colorado, Florida on those contracts. But those are constant, and there's a broad range of experience levels. So there's opportunity for a lot of different folks, different backgrounds. I think the data engineering work is definitely fascinating. It's up in a suburb of Pittsburgh, and then we actually do have what I find fascinating, and this is with the Maryland customer. Again, essentially, if you've got a Full Scope Poly in Maryland and you have a Security+ certification, which we can help you get, that's all the qualifications you need to start a career in IT. So we've been able to transition folks from being access control specialists, just a variety, anybody with that Full Scope Poly and either the Security+ in hand or the willingness to get it. They start out doing basic installs, peripherals, what have you. And then as they learn, and they’re getting paid while they learn, they're able to move into positions where they're qualified to be systems administrators, SOC analysts, all sorts of things. So we're able to help them create a new career path for themselves. And that's really been fabulous.
Kathleen Smith 07:16
Yeah, that's a really great thing. And I know one thing that a lot of people are passionate about is where their job is located. So you mentioned Pittsburgh, you mentioned the Maryland customer, a few things in Northern Virginia. Are there any other places that you're hiring for?
Doug Munro 07:31
Yes, up in Schenectady, New York. We actually have a team out in Idaho Falls and obviously quite a bit of this is local but as previously mentioned, we have opportunities in Colorado, Florida. That's pretty much been the thrust over the last few months.
Kathleen Smith 07:48
Well, that sounds great, because I know a lot of people think most of the companies that we talk to that it's only here in the DMV, but Florida, Colorado, Idaho Falls -- I can never say Schenectady, New York -- the Maryland customer. That’s quite a wide breadth. And that sort of transitions into the next question, which is the one that everyone has these days, hybrid remote. How do you guys handle that challenge?
Doug Munro 08:18
The customer is a federal customer, and if they say they need to be on-site, they need to be on-site. We don't have any control over that. We do have some rare instances, particularly with the DOE customer, not so much remote or hybrid, but after a phasing-in period, they offer flexibility of schedule. So a lot of folks are able to do 4/10s or a 9/80 schedules. So they do get more days off during the course of a month, but if you've got to do desktop support, you can't do it from your living room, unfortunately.
Kathleen Smith 08:52
As you pointed out, one of the most important aspects of that is proving yourself to the customer. Prove that you're going to do the work, prove that you're a value to that contract, and then you can work things out. So let's talk about the company culture at IMG. Who's going to succeed there? What is it like?
Doug Munro 09:12
I think the culture, as much as anything, stems from, we are still typified as a small business by government standards. But we’ve been in business for quite a while. We have no debt. We are held by one person who owns the company. And while we are certainly always trying to grow, I find it significant that all of the growth is geared towards, again, a mission that we believe in, work that we think we can excel at. We're perfectly happy being a small business that's known for doing a great job, and I think that does impact the culture. But in terms of the sorts of folks that I think get the most out of the company, it's sort of that realistic self-analysis. This is oversimplifying, but are you just somebody who wants to come in, do your job, and go home and be with your family? That's fine. We've had people that have been with the company for many, many years with no particular desire to do anything different or move into a different role. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. You can excel and be well taken care of here. If you want to grow your career, if you want to do something different, if you're doing IT, if you're on a help desk, and you want to be doing cybersecurity, that's possible. We have enough flexibility, particularly with all the work we've won with DOE. Opportunities are coming up all the time, so that's just a conversation to have with your manager. We have educational reimbursement. We can help with coursework, certifications. And we have enough paths, we have enough next-level positions for people that we know what the requirements are and we know how to get them there. So I think that's a big part of being self-aware and knowing what it is that is going to make you happy. We can do it for you, but you have to be able to express that to us.
Kathleen Smith 10:59
I think that that's a really important point, because so many times when I coach various different job seekers, I have to tell them that the hardest part is figuring out what they want to do. Let's talk a little bit more about the mechanics going on in a job search. And I know that you have coached so many people, and we've had this discussion about the ATS is not your enemy, the ATS being an Applicant Tracking System. So Doug, as a cleared professional job seeker, how do you make the Applicant Tracking System, the infamous black hole, your friend, not your enemy?
Doug Munro 11:40
First of all, it's not your enemy. It is simply a repository of data. That's really all it is. And contrary to some of the fears that have been thrown around the internet, particularly of late, it will not make a decision on your candidacy. A human being will do that. So it's pretty simple with the ATS. Essentially, just have a good, clean resume. Don't over-format. We don't need a picture of you. We're not selling real estate. Just keep it straightforward, but tell a story about what you've done. Buzzwords are definitely significant, but don't overdo it. The buzzwords should be relevant to the work that you've actually done. So that simple resume that has the right information in it, that's your ticket. You're in the ATS now. There are certain companies that may have overworked recruiting teams. If they've got 1,000 applicants for a single job, first-come first-serve may come into play. On occasion, they may block it out. They're going to look through the first 200 and if they've got 10 viable candidates, then it is possible. But again, there is no boogeyman in the corner. The ATS is not out to get you, so just put that good resume in there. But the next step is researching companies. Where do you want to work? Who have you heard is a really good company to work for or doing interesting things. Connect with recruiters. Sometimes you can connect with hiring managers on particular jobs. You may find that a little harder to do usually, but recruiters are always receptive. They want to hear from potential candidates, even if not for something right now, something in the future. Making a connection to somebody who might be a great fit down the line. So I highly encourage that if you're able to figure out who the recruiter is, and often it's labeled right there, contact them directly as well. Put in the application, but contact them directly. Say, "Hey, I put in an application. I'm really curious to know more about this position. Could we schedule a five-minute chat?” Be aggressive. I don't know any good recruiters who aren't receptive to that.
Kathleen Smith 13:41
You're right. I mean, we've talked to hundreds, maybe 1,000s of recruiters, and they all want to talk to a candidate. So you've worked for many different sizes of companies over the years, small and large, and medium, and well-established, and startups. One of the reasons why I enjoy talking to you is you have this varied background. I do get the impression from many job seekers that working in a large company is a more secure or stable place to be. Can you tell us a little bit as to why that's not necessarily true?
Doug Munro 14:21
It may be true in individual circumstances. There are certainly large companies that do a fantastic job of workforce planning. So they know as a contract's winding down, they have processes in place to try and move folks from that contract to something else, but they're also always looking at the next big ticket item, and they may not have the time or the wherewithal. They're looking at the next contract. And very often, the message you're going to get from large integrators is, “Yeah, we would hate to lose you, but go to the website, see if there's anything there, and apply,” but you're kind of getting thrown into the masses. I would say that the best thing to protect yourself in those scenarios with the larger firms, is the same as the smaller firms, do a great job. Become integral. Connect, network even within your own company. Establish those relationships so that project manager who may be moving to something else is like, “I really want Kathleen to join me on this new venture.” But then, in terms of why the small company is not necessarily any less stable, you just mean more to us. To tell a story, we just won a contract here, 19 people across two sites. That was huge. It was a gigantic celebration for us, and we don't want to lose that, and we don't want to lose the people who were integral in us winning that contract. So we're constantly going to be looking ahead. What else can folks do? How can they continue to grow with us? I don't want to say big companies don't care, but we care a lot. On a percentage basis, you are so significant to us as a person and as a source of revenue. It keeps the lights on for all of us.
Kathleen Smith 16:03
That's a really great way to point it out. So another thing that we've talked about a lot is the importance of having a good relationship with your customer. Talk about the impact as an individual contributor, having that good relationship with your agency customer.
Doug Munro 16:23
It's more challenging than it might appear. Certainly, on the large contracts, even that we're on, you may be one of 20 subcontractors. So no matter how good a job you're doing, how much you're trying to prove yourself to the prime and be a vital partner, there are time constraints. There are very often hurdles to get to the people who can really make a difference in your experience on the contract. So it's not necessarily that easy, no matter how hard you try. But in the cases where we've certainly been able to do it at IMG, it really does impact people who don't even work here yet, because what it means is they will bend over a little bit backwards to help us. So maybe there's a requirement of years of experience, but we've got a candidate that we think is really great, and they may be willing to look at that candidate and ultimately let us hire them, because we've got that reputation. We've been able to develop that partnership, where it's like, “Well, if IMG says they're really good, then they're probably really good,” and it impacts the interview situations you're walking into. It’s more of a conversation than an inquisition, because they've already pretty much decided, “IMG has never sent us anybody that wasn't qualified. So now let's see how we kind of feel about them. Do we think they'd be a good fit on the team,” rather than asking incessant technical questions just to pinpoint, yes, they really have worked on that platform. And so I think it impacts people even before they start working with us. You're walking into a favorable relationship. They're already assuming that you're going to do a great job and you're going to be a valuable contributor. Yes, you still have to prove yourself. Everybody does, but in a different way. You almost have to not prove yourself to be a failure, because you're already assumed to be a rock star as you walk in the door.
Kathleen Smith 18:19
Speaking of rock stars, is there a recent story that you have of a particularly great hire? A home run that you had?
Doug Munro 18:27
I'm reluctant to call it a home run, because I didn't really have anything to do with it. It was all this young man. It dovetails right into what we were just discussing. When I first talked to him, I liked him. He just had a passion for what he was doing, and he had previous careers, but then he got into, eventually, data engineering. So a little later start, which I always find fascinating, and hearing those stories of what you did before you got to hear. And clearly there was a passion, and he had experience, he just didn't have enough to technically qualify. Honestly, I just rolled the dice, and I did not have a great deal of confidence, because it was enough of a gap in terms of years. And I should add one more disclaimer, it all depends on the contract. In some cases, if you don't have the years of experience, we cannot qualify you, period. It's just a contractual obligation. But in this case, we rolled the dice, and he went in and as I would have expected, but you're never guaranteed, he crushed it. He hit the home run. I mean, the interview was over after 10 minutes. They loved the kid, and I'm sorry, everybody's a kid to me at this point, but he's gone in and done nothing but prove all of that, right? But sometimes you’ve just got to roll the dice. If you really believe that somebody has the skills, the qualifications, and the passion for the work, you’ve got to try. Don't let the naysayers get you down. That goes for job seekers, goes for hiring authorities, everybody.
Kathleen Smith 19:55
Awesome. What is one job search tip that you love giving that you end up having to give all the time to cleared professionals?
Doug Munro 20:04
I guess, you could call it preparation, for one thing. There's simple things like, know what your clearance is. It amazes me how many people I talk to, “Oh, yeah, I’ve got a Top Secret.” Well, we check it and no, you don't. You got read down eight months ago and you've got a Secret. So some of these jobs you might want, you're not going to be able to get because your clearance level isn't appropriate, and that's just an example. But know yourself, know what your qualifications are. Look at your resume, how many years of experience do you have in particular areas that you may be pursuing jobs? And then look at that job description. If it says required, it's required. In the commercial sector, of course, they've got a lot more flexibility, but in the cleared world, these are contracts, and they were laid out very specifically. If a contractor hires someone for a contract who doesn't meet the qualifications that were laid out in advance, they can be audited, penalized. If it says required, i's required. When it gets to desired, these are nice-to-haves, and certainly something you might want to talk about. But you're going to get your feelings hurt more often if you ignore that. There are certain things that just have to be there. And also get to know the company. Why would I want to hire you if you don't know anything about my company if you don't at least have questions about what is the work? Is it a new contract? How many years does it have left on it currently? Some sort of intelligent questioning, so that I know you're interested at a deeper level, and that you hopefully have an understanding of who we are, what we do. I think if you're doing those things, you're going to have a much better opportunity to actually get the jobs you're applying to or are interested in.
Kathleen Smith 21:48
This has been a great conversation, and I know all of our audience is going to want to reach out and connect with you. So how can our listeners follow up with you?
Doug Munro 21:56
Certainly through LinkedIn, always happy to connect. Or they can also send an email directly to me at dmunro@imgva.com.
Kathleen Smith 22:02
Doug, great seeing you, and great talking with you.
Doug Munro 22:06
You as well. Thanks so much, Kathleen.
Kathleen Smith 22:10
Doug is just so delightful, because he's a fountain of information. It's hard to pick which one, but I think the one that is really critical that he shared was being not only a sole contributor on a contract, but getting to know the agency customer. Really understanding the contract that you're supporting, the agency that you're supporting, what their mission is. Everyone has a national mission, but then there's different ways that they deploy that. But getting to know the customer and getting to prove your value there helps you in your career, helps the company that you're working for, and also helps you continue your career because people like you. So that was a great conversation. I'm sorry that Rachel was not able to join us today. I miss her terribly. Thank you so much for joining me today. Please be sure to share this podcast. Give us a review. Until next time, this is Kathleen.
Welcome everyone, and here is another episode of Security Cleared Jobs: Who’s Hiring & How. I'm flying solo today. But what better way to fly solo than having as my guest, a very dear friend? So today, we are speaking with Doug Munro, Senior Talent Acquisition Specialist with Information Management Group or IMG. Doug, it's so great to see you and have you on the show today.
Doug Munro 01:15
Thank you for having me. And it is fantastic to see you, Kathleen.
Kathleen Smith 01:20
So for the audience, Doug and I have known each other for at least two decades. And that is one of the things that I love about the government contracting community, is we are a network. We are a community, and we help each other out all the time. Doug himself has helped me out at many of the BSides and many of the hacker conferences. If we ever need an expert on cleared technical certifications or backgrounds, Doug is our expert, and he is also now working with Tim Strike over at IMG. Tim Strike is another dear friend who we recognized over 15 years ago for his recruiting leadership. So it's just a great day for me. But let's make sure that our audience knows sort of your origin story, your diverse background in becoming a recruiter. So what was your journey like coming to IMG? I know about it, but tell our audience.
Doug Munro 02:17
It has been quite a road, quite a few twists and turns. Like most of us in this world, I did not wake up as an eight-year-old and decide this career and this path. Recruiting was not really on my radar. For many years, I worked in the bar industry. For quite a while, I was a mortgage broker. Tried to sneak into doing voiceovers. And then I was doing some political fundraising. And the gentleman who had sort of brought me into that also happened to own a recruiting staffing firm. And as that campaign wound down and I was looking for the next gig, he suggested, would you be interested in working as a recruiter? And again, having no idea what he was talking about, I thought, well, what the heck? I’ll try something new. And the rest is history. Never really looked back. It just was a fit. The idea that you were able to help people, put them into positions that were going to make them happy, you were helping businesses grow. And then, perhaps as significantly as anything, I think I really found a joy and connection to the mission. And to your point about Tim Strike, he is a gentleman I work with, and he is fantastic. And it's really been great, because who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks? I've learned a few things from him in the last few months.
Kathleen Smith 03:35
Yeah, as you point out, the mission is something that drives a lot of us in this community, and you find camaraderie with other recruiters, other program managers, other people in general, who are supporting the mission. You may work for competitive companies, but at the end of the day, you're all working for the same mission. So thank you for bringing that up. So IMG has been in business for almost 40 years, and what a great milestone that is. What sort of contracts and work does IMG do in the cleared community?
Doug Munro 04:09
We are primarily focused in IT, ancillary work in cybersecurity, but we are on several large contracts where we are a subcontractor. So there's all sorts of ancillary positions that do. It's an ever-changing landscape in that regard. But for instance, we are always looking for network engineers in Northern Virginia. And then we also have -- what I found really fascinating -- our single biggest customer is the Department of Energy in a particular enclave within DOE. They set it up as almost a SETA contract. So effectively, once we win the work, we are the prime but there are all sorts of contracts, some large, some small. They can be as small as one person, as just a contract mod. But we do all sorts of stuff. We've got significant service desk support that we offer them. And we're doing data engineering work for them, software engineering work for them. Again, quite a bit of infrastructure. It's ever-evolving. One of the really nice things about the SETA nature of this contract is that once you prove yourself capable of staffing, and in some cases pretty challenging positions and locations, they keep looking to you to do more work.
Kathleen Smith 05:22
That is wonderful. It’s one of the intricacies of government contracting work that a lot of people don't understand. So you mentioned network engineers and IT professionals. What are some of the job titles and positions? Let's pick two or three that are your run-of-the-mill that you're always looking for and then let's think about one or two that are very unique that you're looking for.
Doug Munro 05:47
We are always looking for fully cleared systems administrators and network engineers in Maryland. And then we're always looking for network engineers and network administrators in Northern Virginia. Those at the CI polygraph level. And then that also does extend location-wise to some national work -- Colorado, Florida on those contracts. But those are constant, and there's a broad range of experience levels. So there's opportunity for a lot of different folks, different backgrounds. I think the data engineering work is definitely fascinating. It's up in a suburb of Pittsburgh, and then we actually do have what I find fascinating, and this is with the Maryland customer. Again, essentially, if you've got a Full Scope Poly in Maryland and you have a Security+ certification, which we can help you get, that's all the qualifications you need to start a career in IT. So we've been able to transition folks from being access control specialists, just a variety, anybody with that Full Scope Poly and either the Security+ in hand or the willingness to get it. They start out doing basic installs, peripherals, what have you. And then as they learn, and they’re getting paid while they learn, they're able to move into positions where they're qualified to be systems administrators, SOC analysts, all sorts of things. So we're able to help them create a new career path for themselves. And that's really been fabulous.
Kathleen Smith 07:16
Yeah, that's a really great thing. And I know one thing that a lot of people are passionate about is where their job is located. So you mentioned Pittsburgh, you mentioned the Maryland customer, a few things in Northern Virginia. Are there any other places that you're hiring for?
Doug Munro 07:31
Yes, up in Schenectady, New York. We actually have a team out in Idaho Falls and obviously quite a bit of this is local but as previously mentioned, we have opportunities in Colorado, Florida. That's pretty much been the thrust over the last few months.
Kathleen Smith 07:48
Well, that sounds great, because I know a lot of people think most of the companies that we talk to that it's only here in the DMV, but Florida, Colorado, Idaho Falls -- I can never say Schenectady, New York -- the Maryland customer. That’s quite a wide breadth. And that sort of transitions into the next question, which is the one that everyone has these days, hybrid remote. How do you guys handle that challenge?
Doug Munro 08:18
The customer is a federal customer, and if they say they need to be on-site, they need to be on-site. We don't have any control over that. We do have some rare instances, particularly with the DOE customer, not so much remote or hybrid, but after a phasing-in period, they offer flexibility of schedule. So a lot of folks are able to do 4/10s or a 9/80 schedules. So they do get more days off during the course of a month, but if you've got to do desktop support, you can't do it from your living room, unfortunately.
Kathleen Smith 08:52
As you pointed out, one of the most important aspects of that is proving yourself to the customer. Prove that you're going to do the work, prove that you're a value to that contract, and then you can work things out. So let's talk about the company culture at IMG. Who's going to succeed there? What is it like?
Doug Munro 09:12
I think the culture, as much as anything, stems from, we are still typified as a small business by government standards. But we’ve been in business for quite a while. We have no debt. We are held by one person who owns the company. And while we are certainly always trying to grow, I find it significant that all of the growth is geared towards, again, a mission that we believe in, work that we think we can excel at. We're perfectly happy being a small business that's known for doing a great job, and I think that does impact the culture. But in terms of the sorts of folks that I think get the most out of the company, it's sort of that realistic self-analysis. This is oversimplifying, but are you just somebody who wants to come in, do your job, and go home and be with your family? That's fine. We've had people that have been with the company for many, many years with no particular desire to do anything different or move into a different role. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. You can excel and be well taken care of here. If you want to grow your career, if you want to do something different, if you're doing IT, if you're on a help desk, and you want to be doing cybersecurity, that's possible. We have enough flexibility, particularly with all the work we've won with DOE. Opportunities are coming up all the time, so that's just a conversation to have with your manager. We have educational reimbursement. We can help with coursework, certifications. And we have enough paths, we have enough next-level positions for people that we know what the requirements are and we know how to get them there. So I think that's a big part of being self-aware and knowing what it is that is going to make you happy. We can do it for you, but you have to be able to express that to us.
Kathleen Smith 10:59
I think that that's a really important point, because so many times when I coach various different job seekers, I have to tell them that the hardest part is figuring out what they want to do. Let's talk a little bit more about the mechanics going on in a job search. And I know that you have coached so many people, and we've had this discussion about the ATS is not your enemy, the ATS being an Applicant Tracking System. So Doug, as a cleared professional job seeker, how do you make the Applicant Tracking System, the infamous black hole, your friend, not your enemy?
Doug Munro 11:40
First of all, it's not your enemy. It is simply a repository of data. That's really all it is. And contrary to some of the fears that have been thrown around the internet, particularly of late, it will not make a decision on your candidacy. A human being will do that. So it's pretty simple with the ATS. Essentially, just have a good, clean resume. Don't over-format. We don't need a picture of you. We're not selling real estate. Just keep it straightforward, but tell a story about what you've done. Buzzwords are definitely significant, but don't overdo it. The buzzwords should be relevant to the work that you've actually done. So that simple resume that has the right information in it, that's your ticket. You're in the ATS now. There are certain companies that may have overworked recruiting teams. If they've got 1,000 applicants for a single job, first-come first-serve may come into play. On occasion, they may block it out. They're going to look through the first 200 and if they've got 10 viable candidates, then it is possible. But again, there is no boogeyman in the corner. The ATS is not out to get you, so just put that good resume in there. But the next step is researching companies. Where do you want to work? Who have you heard is a really good company to work for or doing interesting things. Connect with recruiters. Sometimes you can connect with hiring managers on particular jobs. You may find that a little harder to do usually, but recruiters are always receptive. They want to hear from potential candidates, even if not for something right now, something in the future. Making a connection to somebody who might be a great fit down the line. So I highly encourage that if you're able to figure out who the recruiter is, and often it's labeled right there, contact them directly as well. Put in the application, but contact them directly. Say, "Hey, I put in an application. I'm really curious to know more about this position. Could we schedule a five-minute chat?” Be aggressive. I don't know any good recruiters who aren't receptive to that.
Kathleen Smith 13:41
You're right. I mean, we've talked to hundreds, maybe 1,000s of recruiters, and they all want to talk to a candidate. So you've worked for many different sizes of companies over the years, small and large, and medium, and well-established, and startups. One of the reasons why I enjoy talking to you is you have this varied background. I do get the impression from many job seekers that working in a large company is a more secure or stable place to be. Can you tell us a little bit as to why that's not necessarily true?
Doug Munro 14:21
It may be true in individual circumstances. There are certainly large companies that do a fantastic job of workforce planning. So they know as a contract's winding down, they have processes in place to try and move folks from that contract to something else, but they're also always looking at the next big ticket item, and they may not have the time or the wherewithal. They're looking at the next contract. And very often, the message you're going to get from large integrators is, “Yeah, we would hate to lose you, but go to the website, see if there's anything there, and apply,” but you're kind of getting thrown into the masses. I would say that the best thing to protect yourself in those scenarios with the larger firms, is the same as the smaller firms, do a great job. Become integral. Connect, network even within your own company. Establish those relationships so that project manager who may be moving to something else is like, “I really want Kathleen to join me on this new venture.” But then, in terms of why the small company is not necessarily any less stable, you just mean more to us. To tell a story, we just won a contract here, 19 people across two sites. That was huge. It was a gigantic celebration for us, and we don't want to lose that, and we don't want to lose the people who were integral in us winning that contract. So we're constantly going to be looking ahead. What else can folks do? How can they continue to grow with us? I don't want to say big companies don't care, but we care a lot. On a percentage basis, you are so significant to us as a person and as a source of revenue. It keeps the lights on for all of us.
Kathleen Smith 16:03
That's a really great way to point it out. So another thing that we've talked about a lot is the importance of having a good relationship with your customer. Talk about the impact as an individual contributor, having that good relationship with your agency customer.
Doug Munro 16:23
It's more challenging than it might appear. Certainly, on the large contracts, even that we're on, you may be one of 20 subcontractors. So no matter how good a job you're doing, how much you're trying to prove yourself to the prime and be a vital partner, there are time constraints. There are very often hurdles to get to the people who can really make a difference in your experience on the contract. So it's not necessarily that easy, no matter how hard you try. But in the cases where we've certainly been able to do it at IMG, it really does impact people who don't even work here yet, because what it means is they will bend over a little bit backwards to help us. So maybe there's a requirement of years of experience, but we've got a candidate that we think is really great, and they may be willing to look at that candidate and ultimately let us hire them, because we've got that reputation. We've been able to develop that partnership, where it's like, “Well, if IMG says they're really good, then they're probably really good,” and it impacts the interview situations you're walking into. It’s more of a conversation than an inquisition, because they've already pretty much decided, “IMG has never sent us anybody that wasn't qualified. So now let's see how we kind of feel about them. Do we think they'd be a good fit on the team,” rather than asking incessant technical questions just to pinpoint, yes, they really have worked on that platform. And so I think it impacts people even before they start working with us. You're walking into a favorable relationship. They're already assuming that you're going to do a great job and you're going to be a valuable contributor. Yes, you still have to prove yourself. Everybody does, but in a different way. You almost have to not prove yourself to be a failure, because you're already assumed to be a rock star as you walk in the door.
Kathleen Smith 18:19
Speaking of rock stars, is there a recent story that you have of a particularly great hire? A home run that you had?
Doug Munro 18:27
I'm reluctant to call it a home run, because I didn't really have anything to do with it. It was all this young man. It dovetails right into what we were just discussing. When I first talked to him, I liked him. He just had a passion for what he was doing, and he had previous careers, but then he got into, eventually, data engineering. So a little later start, which I always find fascinating, and hearing those stories of what you did before you got to hear. And clearly there was a passion, and he had experience, he just didn't have enough to technically qualify. Honestly, I just rolled the dice, and I did not have a great deal of confidence, because it was enough of a gap in terms of years. And I should add one more disclaimer, it all depends on the contract. In some cases, if you don't have the years of experience, we cannot qualify you, period. It's just a contractual obligation. But in this case, we rolled the dice, and he went in and as I would have expected, but you're never guaranteed, he crushed it. He hit the home run. I mean, the interview was over after 10 minutes. They loved the kid, and I'm sorry, everybody's a kid to me at this point, but he's gone in and done nothing but prove all of that, right? But sometimes you’ve just got to roll the dice. If you really believe that somebody has the skills, the qualifications, and the passion for the work, you’ve got to try. Don't let the naysayers get you down. That goes for job seekers, goes for hiring authorities, everybody.
Kathleen Smith 19:55
Awesome. What is one job search tip that you love giving that you end up having to give all the time to cleared professionals?
Doug Munro 20:04
I guess, you could call it preparation, for one thing. There's simple things like, know what your clearance is. It amazes me how many people I talk to, “Oh, yeah, I’ve got a Top Secret.” Well, we check it and no, you don't. You got read down eight months ago and you've got a Secret. So some of these jobs you might want, you're not going to be able to get because your clearance level isn't appropriate, and that's just an example. But know yourself, know what your qualifications are. Look at your resume, how many years of experience do you have in particular areas that you may be pursuing jobs? And then look at that job description. If it says required, it's required. In the commercial sector, of course, they've got a lot more flexibility, but in the cleared world, these are contracts, and they were laid out very specifically. If a contractor hires someone for a contract who doesn't meet the qualifications that were laid out in advance, they can be audited, penalized. If it says required, i's required. When it gets to desired, these are nice-to-haves, and certainly something you might want to talk about. But you're going to get your feelings hurt more often if you ignore that. There are certain things that just have to be there. And also get to know the company. Why would I want to hire you if you don't know anything about my company if you don't at least have questions about what is the work? Is it a new contract? How many years does it have left on it currently? Some sort of intelligent questioning, so that I know you're interested at a deeper level, and that you hopefully have an understanding of who we are, what we do. I think if you're doing those things, you're going to have a much better opportunity to actually get the jobs you're applying to or are interested in.
Kathleen Smith 21:48
This has been a great conversation, and I know all of our audience is going to want to reach out and connect with you. So how can our listeners follow up with you?
Doug Munro 21:56
Certainly through LinkedIn, always happy to connect. Or they can also send an email directly to me at dmunro@imgva.com.
Kathleen Smith 22:02
Doug, great seeing you, and great talking with you.
Doug Munro 22:06
You as well. Thanks so much, Kathleen.
Kathleen Smith 22:10
Doug is just so delightful, because he's a fountain of information. It's hard to pick which one, but I think the one that is really critical that he shared was being not only a sole contributor on a contract, but getting to know the agency customer. Really understanding the contract that you're supporting, the agency that you're supporting, what their mission is. Everyone has a national mission, but then there's different ways that they deploy that. But getting to know the customer and getting to prove your value there helps you in your career, helps the company that you're working for, and also helps you continue your career because people like you. So that was a great conversation. I'm sorry that Rachel was not able to join us today. I miss her terribly. Thank you so much for joining me today. Please be sure to share this podcast. Give us a review. Until next time, this is Kathleen.
