Justine: we just have no interest in
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: flooding the public consciousness with ugly noise. Everyone's playing with AI and using it, but it's really obvious when something has been done well. if a piece of entertainment can't survive in culture without the logo on it, I think
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: it's almost kind of not worth doing.
Kerrie Finch: Today we're talking to Justine Armour, who's the International Chief Creative Officer at 72andSunny The glory flame of hair has arisen. I
Gully Flowers: my goodness.
Justine: gone. I washed my hair for you guys.
Gully Flowers: Amazing. I didn't know we were doing a Pantene
Kerrie Finch: didn't. Don't.
Gully Flowers: commercial.
Justine: That does look a bit like that, doesn't it? be with you.
Kerrie Finch: you've been busy this year, you've already been president of the D&AD jury, what did you learn? What surprised you? Is it?
Gully Flowers: Was everything AI?
Kerrie Finch: Yeah, was everything AI?
Justine: A fair bit of AI. There's a lot of AI in the case studies. almost all of them had case the case studies were made with AI. I wasn't surprised. I think there was something like 40 plus hours of content that our jury had to watch before we sort of judged. AI work because it was so prevalent, the work that really felt like crafted stood out. So I think that's gonna be the differentiator again because we're all kind of leaning on AI. Everyone's playing with AI and using it, but when you look at it, an industry body of work and you see a lot of AI, the stuff that really stands out as crafted it's really obvious when something has been done well. sports entertainment was one of the categories and I think we we noticed that a lot of the work isn't even about sport. It's really about human obsession. and so that was fun to sort of see the sort of psychology underneath the
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: the sports work that that had the most the most power to it. branded entertainment. the days of making something that's just like a real a branded piece of work are kind of going fading. if a piece of entertainment can't survive in culture without the logo on it, I think
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: it's almost kind of not worth doing. So we we definitely saw that the work that just felt like a glorified long ad. Just it's just not gonna hit.
Kerrie Finch: what separated the brilliant work, you the work that really made you folks lean in and pay attention
Justine: our jury had a a a lot of work that had won in other shows. we were looking for another piece that was that we could surface that would be sort of from our jury. and the truth is we, you know, there were a lot of branded entertainment pieces that were really lovely and we were looking for another yellow pencil. we ended up awarding this Apple holiday spot, the puppets in the forest. Have you seen that one? It's lovely.
Kerrie Finch: No, I haven't.
Gully Flowers: Yeah, that was beautiful.
Justine: And it to be honest, there's a lot of product in there. It's a beautiful holiday spot. the genre of holiday it's been around for a long time. hard to do a global holiday spot too, every single thing about it was so human crafted. It was every puppet was made with, you know, by hand. it was just honestly the most charming thing. I'm gonna contradict myself because it did feel it was it's it's definitely an ad. the iPhone is in there. It's really clear, but it's just a really entertaining piece. I remember when it came out I was like, it's such a I loved I've watched it several several times as a civilian out in the world and I just enjoyed it. the storytelling of the making of it was actually almost as lovely as the piece itself. It was also validating as someone who likes making things and likes going on production
Kerrie Finch: Yeah.
Justine: and and you know that that the craft and the sort of artfulness of the thing that we do is actually really alive and well. maybe I'm it's my own bias leaning in, but just as a maker and as somebody who sees our job as sometimes being an art form, you know, when it's done well. there's something about that kind of work that makes me it gives me a lot of energy. And and I think it's a sort of work that we should put in front of an industry that's kind of wondering what it's doing and wondering what its value is going to be. because it does have a lot of value and D&AD there is there to surface the best work in the industry every
Kerrie Finch: Mm.
Justine: year. And so it's worth holding up the work where care has been taken, investment has been made, ⁓
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: incredible teams have been assembled to make something as well as it can possibly be made. we should hold that stuff up as, you know, we're not always going to be able to do it. not every client is going to be up for that. Not every client has the time or the or the budget. But it is worth holding it up and saying, when we're at our best, this is what it looks like.
Kerrie Finch: if you were going to give advice to folks entering work next year, what would that be
Justine: I've had work that I've entered that I was sure was gonna do well and has completely, you know, been looked over. I've had work that we've I was has won that I didn't think was gonna win. it's still a bit of a lottery because it depends like what your jury is and what their taste is and we had a piece of work, on that was in the category that I was ⁓ judging for e.l.f. ⁓ And it was actually by far and away the most watched pre-game Super Bowl spot of all time. Like it was the most successful piece of branded entertainment as a Super Bowl spot. if you look at views and engagement there's you sign a code of conduct when you go into the onto that jury. So you're not allowed to talk about your own work or defend your own work, but it did not get it didn't get past the shortlist. It was shortlisted and I was happy and it was discussed. I wasn't there for the discussion, it was discussed for a pencil. I say all of this with a bit of a like, what do I know? Because I've won a lot of things, but I've always lost I've lost a lot.
Gully Flowers: You
Justine: but I think making sure that that the jury understands the entertainment value of the work you're seeing work that you're not the audience. I'm not a massive football fan, I'm not a massive cricket fan. And there was work in there that was really in the fandom of cricket and football and things like that.
Kerrie Finch: Mm-hmm.
Justine: getting the jury to understand the fandom and the sort of real the co the cultural context and and why this has been really successful to your audience, I think is really helpful because I think the best work comes it's really in the fandom, whether it's entertainment or in a culture or or sport, it's really kind of leveraging something that's like quite specific. And so Getting the jury to understand that is super helpful. There was a really great piece of work that we awarded in the sports category for Fowler's Sports. I don't know if you saw Adidas had a reissue of a bunch of jerseys for like Liverpool jerseys for the 90s, and they partnered with JD Sports to to reissue them, and they had made a series that was based on a fictional sports store. ⁓ w which was owned and staffed by nineties football players. I'm not a f
Gully Flowers: Amazing.
Justine: remotely a Liverpool I don't know anything about football. I don't know anything about like Liverpool or anything like that. But I that's the Yes.
Gully Flowers: We're about soccer, right? Just for the Americans.
Justine: once I kind of tuned in to understand like how much the fans would have loved this, it was really easy to award it.
Kerrie Finch: I was on the one show jury this year, it's really about how you submit that award. You don't have to have an expensive voiceover. There was some brilliant work that just wasn't backed up by any stats or any chunky information. And you're like, well, it's pretty, it looks great, but... Did it do its job? I don't know.
Justine: D&AD has a one of the criteria is is it fit for purpose? ⁓ And
Kerrie Finch: Yes, right.
Justine: if its purpose is to do something and you haven't proven that it did it, then it's a no,
Kerrie Finch: What do you find separates, great creative cultures from the ones that simply paying lip service to it?
Justine: Yeah. I would say culture where everybody is pulling in the same direction, I work at 72andSunny now. I moved to New York from Wieden Kennedy ⁓ 10 years ago. and I've recently just come back ⁓ and one of the brilliant things about 72andSunny it has tenets that it's built on and one of them is like this deep collaboration and I remember when I first moved from Wieden and Kennedy to 72 and one of our tenants is once the work goes on the wall, it's everybody's work now, so we have these wall sessions where we put the work on the wall, it's like a first creative review, and then you're asked to attach your ego to the outcome. so obviously care about the work, but now that belongs to everybody. we're all there to build the work and make the work strong and make the work great, and it's a bit of an adjustment to move from a place where the creative happens in the creative department to everybody's role is and in and around the creative. But I will say I think 72andSunny has a culture of creativity that is sometimes uncomfortable, sometimes people stepping on each other's toes, everybody's asking. a lot of each other. but it is truly like a creative culture, like none that I've seen. so it takes a bit for people when people come into our agency, some people don't like it,
Kerrie Finch: What don't they like?
Justine: I think when a brand person or a strategist is having ideas and they're really great ideas and they're valid ideas and we're talking about them, like some creatives feel judged by that. ⁓ I think there's a
Gully Flowers: I used to be a suit and the creatives did not want to hear my ideas. I'll tell you that much. ⁓ They'll be like smack. ⁓ They're so good. Kerrie, thank you.
Justine: I yeah, I know, I'm sorry.
Kerrie Finch: And your ideas are so brilliant Gully They're
Justine: I remember when I first moved there ten years ago, I was like, ⁓ this is a bit, I don't know. I felt a ⁓ little
Gully Flowers: Yeah.
Kerrie Finch: Confronting in some way?
Justine: confronting. I was like, you know, and it's a little annoying.
Gully Flowers: annoying. No, no, little annoying.
Justine: But ⁓ it's also really kind of ⁓ there's something really freeing about it too. You don't have to
Gully Flowers: Hmm.
Justine: come to the room with all the answers every time. You know, you can come with curiosity or you can come with a ⁓ a challenge ⁓ and and know that everybody's gonna roll up their sleeves and ⁓ and help, I work with Chris Kay and Maria Galleriu and I would say those two people are some of most creative people I've ever worked with, And I I would never dismiss an idea that they had just 'cause they weren't creative ⁓ in their
Kerrie Finch: Mm.
Justine: title. It's really kind of nice to be surrounded by people who really care about the work as much as they care about their part of the work.
Gully Flowers: Yeah. I think that's, I think that's one of the biggest challenges of getting good creative out of a big organization because it's really hard to get everybody in the same direction because you have silos,
Kerrie Finch: Hmm
Gully Flowers: have politics, you have power dynamics. there specific things that you do to build that sort of like clarity and sort of North star for everybody?
Justine: it's in the air and water at 72andSunny I moved here from New York a few months ago ⁓ and I will say I was a bit of a bull in a China shop when I got here because ⁓ the culture of the office here ⁓ had a very sort of consensus building type of decision making and that can work to a point you know at a certain size but we needed to grow and win a lot more and quickly and so my approach was to come in and make clear decisions on the work and how we should do it and Nobody's got time for vague decision making.
Gully Flowers: in the pitches is there something that you see really resonating with those clients? Or is it different for every pitch? Or do you feel like there's like an understanding of like younger generations and behaviors and social or culture?
Justine: I think our work that we've done on e.l.f. we talk about as a one team, one dream kind of mentality. And we are really an extension of their team. clients are fascinated by the success of e.l.f and we of course have been part of that. the leadership there is incredibly tight. there's a unique way of working. They're fast, super deep and everything. a lot of clients have come to us with a fascination for like how does that work and what are they doing
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: and so we've got some learnings around that, but there's also just like a special sauce at e.l.f that is just not really replicable in other places. Armando Potter who's ⁓ the strategy lead. Armando is the best of many things in the industry, such an incredible speaker and an incredible thinker. so much of what they do comes from the community up. So they're listening to the community. They're super engaged in their community all the time. We have ideas for ⁓ campaigns and for platforms and things like that that come from a comment Kory who's the president now of e.l.f, is she's in she's in the chat. She's directly communicating with people. they are so deeply connected to their ⁓ community. And I think you've got to be up for that and you've got to have a passion
Kerrie Finch: Hmm. Hmm.
Justine: for the business that you're running to be able to do that. But I think it because they have that, it's ⁓ just such an alive company. Armando also talks about, everything's global, we did a launch for Germany in German, which they launched on all of their channels and it was incredibly successful globally for them. so you can do work that, if it's if it's grounded in an audience truth, in a product truth, in a cultural truth, it does tend to resonate you wouldn't imagine that a that
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: a campaign about German scientists is gonna resonate in Brazil or Mexico or whatever, and yet it does.
Kerrie Finch: Yeah, go for it, Gully.
Gully Flowers: I find it fascinating about the comments there with Kory, because I
Kerrie Finch: Mm.
Gully Flowers: remember when social was first like emerging and the thought of someone important ever being in the comments was not even on the planet,
Justine: Yeah. And it's real as well. she is through and through passionate about that audience and about that brand. when a leader has that kind of energy for the thing that they're doing, it does tend to kind of create clarity for the whole organization.
Kerrie Finch: Mmm.
Justine: So yeah, I think there's there's a lot that she does that powers that company
Kerrie Finch: And you've talked about the work for Germany that's crossed borders, that's been so successful globally. how do you... maintain creative standards across multiple regions and across multiple offices without creating some kind of reductive monoculture.
Justine: it's a challenge that I'm
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: sort of new to. we need great work from from all of the offices And there's been a few highlights this year, but there's more coming. one of the things that I learned some things when I was at Grey and I kind of used this ⁓ like a sort of criteria that I use, work that has a simple, clear idea. So simple you can say it in a sentence. you can be in any culture and I I need to know what your idea is. I don't not care so much of caring about the mood board or the vibe and the big manifesto. Tell me what the idea is in a sem sentence and then I'll I can know if it's gonna be repeatable. a surprising quality to it. Like if we're if you're thinking about the brand or the client's challenge as a story, what is the surprising next beat, in the story of the brand. I need to know it's surprising.
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: in the landscape of work that everybody is exposed to. If it's not doing something or saying something that others wouldn't do or say, I don't know why it would stand out. So a sense of audacity. we talk about craft and making sure that the work is crafted so that every element of it is, keeps your attention. And that doesn't mean that everything has to be cinematic or everything has to be perfect. It just means that choices are made to hold your attention. And the last thing I say is, the work should have a sort of an energy to it. we should be excited to make it because work that's exciting to make and there's an urgency in us that we want to make it tends to have excitement in the world. it doesn't matter where you are, you can be in Mexico or Brazil or Australia and if you've got those things kind of going for you, the work will have, the qualities that needs to be to be great. when I I'm I bang on about this and I sometimes I feel a little bit old school when I do, but I just think that it's just the quality of the best work, when it's it's clear what it's trying to say.
Gully Flowers: S-S-A-C-E. It's a great acronym. I know it's a bad acronym. Simple, surprising,
Kerrie Finch: What's that? S8?
Gully Flowers: audacity, audacious maybe, craft and energy. S-S-A-C-E. We've got it guys. We've nailed it. We've absolutely nailed it.
Justine: Yeah, okay. Thank you. Ellie.
Kerrie Finch: It rolls off the tongue. Trade market immediately.
Justine: I'm hiring you as a copywriter these days.
Gully Flowers: You talked about Armando before, has the strategy creative collaboration changed in your career? I feel like that used to be kind of a bit of a handover and maybe it's a bit more connected now.
Justine: ⁓ we're all getting up in each each other's shit all the time. ⁓ kind of happily, they hire and choose great people to be in your in strategy and it's been, last few years I would say that that's been we've almost been kind of enmeshed as a as two disciplines.
Kerrie Finch: Mm.
Justine: and then we get it enmeshed with production. ⁓ But ⁓ yeah, it's one process and especially when you you need to move quickly on things, And in fact, I
Gully Flowers: Yeah.
Justine: would say Armando's had some ideas ⁓ that have been some of our best ideas, creative ideas, And I'm like poke on Strategy. ⁓ I'm not saying I'm I'm a brilliant strategist, but I'm certainly have opinions. ⁓
Gully Flowers: Yeah. It sounds like flexibility in the process is a key thing because of the, what are your timelines like now?
Justine: it varies. we're about to make our first work for Foot Locker, which we won at the beginning of the year. So that's been a healthy timeline, probably a little bit too long. clients want great work. no one's approving work that's not great just 'cause we've got a timeline.
Kerrie Finch: what is it about Australians? there are a disproportionate number of great Australians in the creative industry
Justine: Yeah, I mean it's interesting. I'm curious to hear if Gully has a s a similar take on this. But I started in ninety-eight as a junior baby copywriter. the culture in Australia, I mean, for me, even the first twelve years of my career I was there. there's this whole thing there called the the toll poppy syndrome, and there's a real cultural i don't know dislike for anyone who kind of gets above anybody else and so you yeah
Kerrie Finch: That's a very British thing as well, isn't it?
Justine: and so there is a real yeah no yeah yeah back down here with us and so i would
Gully Flowers: Anyone with confidence, we just cut it down. Anyone with any self-belief.
Justine: say what happened for me was i spent you know i was very proudly and like i think totally unconsciously it wasn't even a conscious decision but I s ⁓ I was gonna be a co a craft copywriter until the day I died. And in fact, I remember when I was working Publicis Mojo, which is in Sydney, and I was working for Micah Walker. you guys met Micah, I think? ⁓
Gully Flowers: Yeah, we've had Micah yeah. ⁓
Justine: one of the most brilliant creatives he's just like such a a deep, you know, thinking creative. So
Gully Flowers: Yeah. Yes.
Justine: I spent three and a half years working there and then when Micah left they you know asked me if I'd take the role as the E C D that office. And I remember being very consciously like w aware that I hadn't yet done enough great work to to really step into that role and to r and what at the point, yeah, I could have taken the job, but I didn't I didn't have confidence that I'd yet be able to build a great team ⁓ to ⁓ to make me successful there. So then I ended up leaving and going to Wieden and Kennedy in Portland as a copywriter, which I did that for a couple.
Gully Flowers: Decent shop.
Justine: Yeah, it was fine, you know. I mean yeah.
Gully Flowers: Kerrie also worked at Wieden. ⁓ You would never know. She never brings it up.
Kerrie Finch: You'd never know because I know... Gully doesn't let me mention it anymore. No, he doesn't let me mention it.
Gully Flowers: ⁓ We love Wieden Kennedy.
Justine: No, doesn't he? Yeah.
Kerrie Finch: No, we do, but I'm not allowed to talk about it anymore.
Gully Flowers: Well, you do.
Justine: I stopped talking about it a long time ago because I realised like, okay, but I was gonna say because I was really a copywriter for so long and I was in my crafts that you know it there wasn't like a I wasn't I didn't have my eyes on being a creative director and then it kind of became more natural when I was asked to sort of step into a C D role. it kind of gives you just like a really deep grounding in what it is to be a a creative practitioner. and a really sort of empathy, re real empathy for the creatives.
Kerrie Finch: So what do you think the difference is? What do you think the sweet spot is about Aussie creatives
Justine: I have worked with a lot of Australian creatives, in in Australia and in the US, and I would say they are absolutely reliable in terms of like they will crack an idea, they're really good, and it's because they spend more time in the craft part of their career before they jump into leadership. then your leadership is more durable as well when you've got a lot of work that you've made that's really good. And you can build a great team when you've made a lot of great work. And so spending more time and gaining mastery as an art director or a designer or a copywriter before you jump into that phase, I think it's has a lot of value.
Gully Flowers: We're sort of taught to spend the time doing the work versus talking about it, think, in a way, right?
Justine: Yeah, yeah.
Gully Flowers: Whereas I feel like even when I see my own children here in the States, a lot of it is sort of like talking about it instead of doing it. And maybe that's
Justine: Yeah.
Gully Flowers: related.
Kerrie Finch: That's interesting.
Justine: Yeah, I would say we all we almost aren't that great at talking about it. When you go to America,
Gully Flowers: Yeah, no, we're awful at talking about it.
Justine: everybody's really good at talking about it and
Gully Flowers: Yes.
Justine: Australians are like b bumble through.
Kerrie Finch: Hmm,
Gully Flowers: I'll just keep plugging away
Kerrie Finch: interesting.
Gully Flowers: at it and then maybe people will like it, but not too much.
Justine: Yeah. Read this. Read this.
Gully Flowers: I think there's a humility and I think there's a directness and a lack of
Kerrie Finch: Mmm.
Justine: Yeah.
Gully Flowers: fear around calling BS. And this
Kerrie Finch: Mmm.
Gully Flowers: is similar to, know, Jo Shoesmith We've talked to her a couple of times and I think she sees that at Amazon too in her role there. And she actually said there's a, there's sort of a group of Australians in Amazon that, you know, ⁓ having an amazing successful career. And I think a lot of it comes down to that ⁓ lack of ego,
Justine: Yeah.
Gully Flowers: maybe. a directness and like you said, Justine,
Kerrie Finch: hard graft.
Justine: Yeah. It's also
Gully Flowers: putting in the work.
Justine: right.
Kerrie Finch: cracking on.
Justine: You know, you made a joke about women, there's a lot of women. There's I think there's w you came up as a woman in advertising in Australia. Like the it was way more sexist and way more ridiculous
Kerrie Finch: Yeah I can imagine that.
Justine: than anywhere. And so you have a s resilience that is there.
Kerrie Finch: Yeah, I can absolutely imagine that.
Justine: and so I think that is ends up being some something of value. 'Cause you do
Kerrie Finch: you
Justine: a lot of resilience in this business, in leadership.
Gully Flowers: I think it's a great point.
Kerrie Finch: So, ⁓ so 72andSunny what is it that you want the agency to be famous for,
Justine: What do I want this agency to be known for in five years' time? we want to be the premium global creative network. we're not super interested in churning out masses of AI assets,
Kerrie Finch: Mm-hmm.
Justine: low-cost, into the
Gully Flowers: Race to the bottom.
Justine: Yeah, I mean we we we want to do work that has value that has a high value. So I think leaning into, you know, great ideas, great making, really sharp. and it doesn't really know I I I have long since given up predicting the future. I don't know what the industry is gonna look like a year from now. I'm super bored by the AI conversation. I feel like I I'm
Gully Flowers: Yeah.
Justine: not gonna add anything to it. We're just what we're just getting on with it. We're working with the with tools, we're experimenting with things. but we just have no interest in
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: flooding the public consciousness with ugly noise. I want us to be known for doing quality work that that is really successful for our clients. that's the other thing I would say about our culture is we are not interested in doing ⁓ award fodder that doesn't have value. ⁓
Kerrie Finch: Hmm, it's not resonating. Yeah.
Justine: No, it's never been 72s way. I love going t judging on award shows. I love winning. I get more excited about the e.l.f Super Bowl spot and what it did for the business ⁓ than I would get, you know, by g winning an award for it to honest. So, ⁓ I think n ⁓ our culture is ⁓ super focused on doing work that changes the client's business. We get a lot, we get really excited when things work. So there'll be more of that, I think. Yep.
Gully Flowers: And can you tell us about optimism and how you think about, you know, that's a big broad word. tell us a bit more how you think about optimism and how it guides you and the team?
Justine: in the wrong ⁓ hands ⁓ and the wrong sort of translation of it, it can turn into sort of this toxic positivity ⁓ idea and people can get an an idea that 72andSunny is like a bunch of people, nice people trying to be nice to each other. and it is not that the optimism ⁓ and its purest expression is it's clear-eyed, it's really seeing a situation for what it is. It's having a really deep sense of curiosity about where we actually are and what we're facing and what we're we're up against, what our clients are up against. And then always just having a really strong belief and orientation that wherever we are, we can succeed out of it. There's no despair. There's only everything is working in our favor, even the hard things. And so this orientation of optimism, we don't go into, you know, I'm sure that there's moments where we're like, we just have like a hold hands and like whine for 30 seconds. That sometimes happens. But we very quickly move to solutions and and move
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: to like an orientation of like what everything that's that feels like it's working against us is actually working for us. ⁓ And honestly
Kerrie Finch: Hmm
Justine: it's a little culty when ⁓ when you kind of join there a way ⁓ in the world, you know? And
Gully Flowers: Belonging. Yeah. Yeah.
Justine: it's like you I it's actually I I think it really has changed me as a person and when I ⁓ think about like how you know I done done a lot of coaching at 72 I've done a lot of ⁓ I'm like I'm a full I'm all in on the the 72 way. And I really do find even my in my personal life and situation sometimes when things aren't going to plan, I'm like, I'm I'm in a I'm curious about what this is offering me. Like what is opportunity
Kerrie Finch: Mmm.
Justine: here?
Kerrie Finch: what would you be telling, you know, a 25 year old today, if they said, Look, you know, I want to be you in X number of years time, what's your advice?
Justine: Think start being me 25 years ago, which has been a real kind of just I've just immersed myself in everything about the business and everything about creativity.
Kerrie Finch: Mm.
Justine: and it was such an enjoyable point in my career, I did a business degree and then I started on reception at McCann and I started writing copy about tract homes, you know, and like naming streets and suburbs and things like that was my first copywriting job. I remember the David Blackley who was a our sort of regional E C D And he sort of did the rounds and sort of shared all the award-winning work from that year. And he played ⁓ the Guinness Surfers spot
Gully Flowers: Mmm.
Kerrie Finch: That's one of my favorites.
Justine: It was like that moment of seeing that spot was a life-changing, career-changing moment for me. Because at the moment, that moment that was the moment I was like, I don't, there's this other type of work. I'm not doing that right now. I'm writing about, I'm writing direct mail about.
Kerrie Finch: Mmm.
Justine: But I was like, I just want to be in that realm of of work. And so I really just got focused on being becoming a super nerd. for the best type of work and the most poetic work. And I really kind of, you know, just had mentors that were great copywriters and I sort of soaked up as much as I could from the people that were willing to teach me.
Kerrie Finch: Sounds like you got loved up on the craft.
Justine: Yeah. And the feeling, the work that made I mean, I felt something about that spot that was so it was su it was like art. It was so beautiful.
Kerrie Finch: Yeah, it was deep wasn't it?
Justine: I don't know. I think the thing about me is I won't ever give up or
Kerrie Finch: Mm.
Justine: the thing that I always can trust in myself is I I am relentless and in my you know, ambition for the agency, ambition for people, ambition for the work. there's sometimes that like I people get bruised around like
Gully Flowers: The resilience.
Justine: Yeah, but it's like, I don't know, like I I've had years where we where I haven't done as well as others and I'm just like I ugh I still even thirty years in, I I I can't stand having an a being average and having an average time. So There's a part of me that's like always gonna be driven to win, succeed, be great.
Kerrie Finch: Mm. Mm.
Justine: Yeah. Die trying with great hair.
Gully Flowers: And incredible hair. Resilient plus incredible hair.
Justine: Second most incredible hair, according to the
Kerrie Finch: Second only to Armando Potter.
Gully Flowers: I don't think so. I don't sorry, Armando. Love the hair, but I don't think I don't think you second.
Kerrie Finch: ⁓ thank you so much ⁓ for coming on Second Wind with us. ⁓ It's been
Justine: In there. Yeah.
Kerrie Finch: an absolute joy.
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: flooding the public consciousness with ugly noise. Everyone's playing with AI and using it, but it's really obvious when something has been done well. if a piece of entertainment can't survive in culture without the logo on it, I think
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: it's almost kind of not worth doing.
Kerrie Finch: Today we're talking to Justine Armour, who's the International Chief Creative Officer at 72andSunny The glory flame of hair has arisen. I
Gully Flowers: my goodness.
Justine: gone. I washed my hair for you guys.
Gully Flowers: Amazing. I didn't know we were doing a Pantene
Kerrie Finch: didn't. Don't.
Gully Flowers: commercial.
Justine: That does look a bit like that, doesn't it? be with you.
Kerrie Finch: you've been busy this year, you've already been president of the D&AD jury, what did you learn? What surprised you? Is it?
Gully Flowers: Was everything AI?
Kerrie Finch: Yeah, was everything AI?
Justine: A fair bit of AI. There's a lot of AI in the case studies. almost all of them had case the case studies were made with AI. I wasn't surprised. I think there was something like 40 plus hours of content that our jury had to watch before we sort of judged. AI work because it was so prevalent, the work that really felt like crafted stood out. So I think that's gonna be the differentiator again because we're all kind of leaning on AI. Everyone's playing with AI and using it, but when you look at it, an industry body of work and you see a lot of AI, the stuff that really stands out as crafted it's really obvious when something has been done well. sports entertainment was one of the categories and I think we we noticed that a lot of the work isn't even about sport. It's really about human obsession. and so that was fun to sort of see the sort of psychology underneath the
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: the sports work that that had the most the most power to it. branded entertainment. the days of making something that's just like a real a branded piece of work are kind of going fading. if a piece of entertainment can't survive in culture without the logo on it, I think
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: it's almost kind of not worth doing. So we we definitely saw that the work that just felt like a glorified long ad. Just it's just not gonna hit.
Kerrie Finch: what separated the brilliant work, you the work that really made you folks lean in and pay attention
Justine: our jury had a a a lot of work that had won in other shows. we were looking for another piece that was that we could surface that would be sort of from our jury. and the truth is we, you know, there were a lot of branded entertainment pieces that were really lovely and we were looking for another yellow pencil. we ended up awarding this Apple holiday spot, the puppets in the forest. Have you seen that one? It's lovely.
Kerrie Finch: No, I haven't.
Gully Flowers: Yeah, that was beautiful.
Justine: And it to be honest, there's a lot of product in there. It's a beautiful holiday spot. the genre of holiday it's been around for a long time. hard to do a global holiday spot too, every single thing about it was so human crafted. It was every puppet was made with, you know, by hand. it was just honestly the most charming thing. I'm gonna contradict myself because it did feel it was it's it's definitely an ad. the iPhone is in there. It's really clear, but it's just a really entertaining piece. I remember when it came out I was like, it's such a I loved I've watched it several several times as a civilian out in the world and I just enjoyed it. the storytelling of the making of it was actually almost as lovely as the piece itself. It was also validating as someone who likes making things and likes going on production
Kerrie Finch: Yeah.
Justine: and and you know that that the craft and the sort of artfulness of the thing that we do is actually really alive and well. maybe I'm it's my own bias leaning in, but just as a maker and as somebody who sees our job as sometimes being an art form, you know, when it's done well. there's something about that kind of work that makes me it gives me a lot of energy. And and I think it's a sort of work that we should put in front of an industry that's kind of wondering what it's doing and wondering what its value is going to be. because it does have a lot of value and D&AD there is there to surface the best work in the industry every
Kerrie Finch: Mm.
Justine: year. And so it's worth holding up the work where care has been taken, investment has been made, ⁓
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: incredible teams have been assembled to make something as well as it can possibly be made. we should hold that stuff up as, you know, we're not always going to be able to do it. not every client is going to be up for that. Not every client has the time or the or the budget. But it is worth holding it up and saying, when we're at our best, this is what it looks like.
Kerrie Finch: if you were going to give advice to folks entering work next year, what would that be
Justine: I've had work that I've entered that I was sure was gonna do well and has completely, you know, been looked over. I've had work that we've I was has won that I didn't think was gonna win. it's still a bit of a lottery because it depends like what your jury is and what their taste is and we had a piece of work, on that was in the category that I was ⁓ judging for e.l.f. ⁓ And it was actually by far and away the most watched pre-game Super Bowl spot of all time. Like it was the most successful piece of branded entertainment as a Super Bowl spot. if you look at views and engagement there's you sign a code of conduct when you go into the onto that jury. So you're not allowed to talk about your own work or defend your own work, but it did not get it didn't get past the shortlist. It was shortlisted and I was happy and it was discussed. I wasn't there for the discussion, it was discussed for a pencil. I say all of this with a bit of a like, what do I know? Because I've won a lot of things, but I've always lost I've lost a lot.
Gully Flowers: You
Justine: but I think making sure that that the jury understands the entertainment value of the work you're seeing work that you're not the audience. I'm not a massive football fan, I'm not a massive cricket fan. And there was work in there that was really in the fandom of cricket and football and things like that.
Kerrie Finch: Mm-hmm.
Justine: getting the jury to understand the fandom and the sort of real the co the cultural context and and why this has been really successful to your audience, I think is really helpful because I think the best work comes it's really in the fandom, whether it's entertainment or in a culture or or sport, it's really kind of leveraging something that's like quite specific. And so Getting the jury to understand that is super helpful. There was a really great piece of work that we awarded in the sports category for Fowler's Sports. I don't know if you saw Adidas had a reissue of a bunch of jerseys for like Liverpool jerseys for the 90s, and they partnered with JD Sports to to reissue them, and they had made a series that was based on a fictional sports store. ⁓ w which was owned and staffed by nineties football players. I'm not a f
Gully Flowers: Amazing.
Justine: remotely a Liverpool I don't know anything about football. I don't know anything about like Liverpool or anything like that. But I that's the Yes.
Gully Flowers: We're about soccer, right? Just for the Americans.
Justine: once I kind of tuned in to understand like how much the fans would have loved this, it was really easy to award it.
Kerrie Finch: I was on the one show jury this year, it's really about how you submit that award. You don't have to have an expensive voiceover. There was some brilliant work that just wasn't backed up by any stats or any chunky information. And you're like, well, it's pretty, it looks great, but... Did it do its job? I don't know.
Justine: D&AD has a one of the criteria is is it fit for purpose? ⁓ And
Kerrie Finch: Yes, right.
Justine: if its purpose is to do something and you haven't proven that it did it, then it's a no,
Kerrie Finch: What do you find separates, great creative cultures from the ones that simply paying lip service to it?
Justine: Yeah. I would say culture where everybody is pulling in the same direction, I work at 72andSunny now. I moved to New York from Wieden Kennedy ⁓ 10 years ago. and I've recently just come back ⁓ and one of the brilliant things about 72andSunny it has tenets that it's built on and one of them is like this deep collaboration and I remember when I first moved from Wieden and Kennedy to 72 and one of our tenants is once the work goes on the wall, it's everybody's work now, so we have these wall sessions where we put the work on the wall, it's like a first creative review, and then you're asked to attach your ego to the outcome. so obviously care about the work, but now that belongs to everybody. we're all there to build the work and make the work strong and make the work great, and it's a bit of an adjustment to move from a place where the creative happens in the creative department to everybody's role is and in and around the creative. But I will say I think 72andSunny has a culture of creativity that is sometimes uncomfortable, sometimes people stepping on each other's toes, everybody's asking. a lot of each other. but it is truly like a creative culture, like none that I've seen. so it takes a bit for people when people come into our agency, some people don't like it,
Kerrie Finch: What don't they like?
Justine: I think when a brand person or a strategist is having ideas and they're really great ideas and they're valid ideas and we're talking about them, like some creatives feel judged by that. ⁓ I think there's a
Gully Flowers: I used to be a suit and the creatives did not want to hear my ideas. I'll tell you that much. ⁓ They'll be like smack. ⁓ They're so good. Kerrie, thank you.
Justine: I yeah, I know, I'm sorry.
Kerrie Finch: And your ideas are so brilliant Gully They're
Justine: I remember when I first moved there ten years ago, I was like, ⁓ this is a bit, I don't know. I felt a ⁓ little
Gully Flowers: Yeah.
Kerrie Finch: Confronting in some way?
Justine: confronting. I was like, you know, and it's a little annoying.
Gully Flowers: annoying. No, no, little annoying.
Justine: But ⁓ it's also really kind of ⁓ there's something really freeing about it too. You don't have to
Gully Flowers: Hmm.
Justine: come to the room with all the answers every time. You know, you can come with curiosity or you can come with a ⁓ a challenge ⁓ and and know that everybody's gonna roll up their sleeves and ⁓ and help, I work with Chris Kay and Maria Galleriu and I would say those two people are some of most creative people I've ever worked with, And I I would never dismiss an idea that they had just 'cause they weren't creative ⁓ in their
Kerrie Finch: Mm.
Justine: title. It's really kind of nice to be surrounded by people who really care about the work as much as they care about their part of the work.
Gully Flowers: Yeah. I think that's, I think that's one of the biggest challenges of getting good creative out of a big organization because it's really hard to get everybody in the same direction because you have silos,
Kerrie Finch: Hmm
Gully Flowers: have politics, you have power dynamics. there specific things that you do to build that sort of like clarity and sort of North star for everybody?
Justine: it's in the air and water at 72andSunny I moved here from New York a few months ago ⁓ and I will say I was a bit of a bull in a China shop when I got here because ⁓ the culture of the office here ⁓ had a very sort of consensus building type of decision making and that can work to a point you know at a certain size but we needed to grow and win a lot more and quickly and so my approach was to come in and make clear decisions on the work and how we should do it and Nobody's got time for vague decision making.
Gully Flowers: in the pitches is there something that you see really resonating with those clients? Or is it different for every pitch? Or do you feel like there's like an understanding of like younger generations and behaviors and social or culture?
Justine: I think our work that we've done on e.l.f. we talk about as a one team, one dream kind of mentality. And we are really an extension of their team. clients are fascinated by the success of e.l.f and we of course have been part of that. the leadership there is incredibly tight. there's a unique way of working. They're fast, super deep and everything. a lot of clients have come to us with a fascination for like how does that work and what are they doing
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: and so we've got some learnings around that, but there's also just like a special sauce at e.l.f that is just not really replicable in other places. Armando Potter who's ⁓ the strategy lead. Armando is the best of many things in the industry, such an incredible speaker and an incredible thinker. so much of what they do comes from the community up. So they're listening to the community. They're super engaged in their community all the time. We have ideas for ⁓ campaigns and for platforms and things like that that come from a comment Kory who's the president now of e.l.f, is she's in she's in the chat. She's directly communicating with people. they are so deeply connected to their ⁓ community. And I think you've got to be up for that and you've got to have a passion
Kerrie Finch: Hmm. Hmm.
Justine: for the business that you're running to be able to do that. But I think it because they have that, it's ⁓ just such an alive company. Armando also talks about, everything's global, we did a launch for Germany in German, which they launched on all of their channels and it was incredibly successful globally for them. so you can do work that, if it's if it's grounded in an audience truth, in a product truth, in a cultural truth, it does tend to resonate you wouldn't imagine that a that
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: a campaign about German scientists is gonna resonate in Brazil or Mexico or whatever, and yet it does.
Kerrie Finch: Yeah, go for it, Gully.
Gully Flowers: I find it fascinating about the comments there with Kory, because I
Kerrie Finch: Mm.
Gully Flowers: remember when social was first like emerging and the thought of someone important ever being in the comments was not even on the planet,
Justine: Yeah. And it's real as well. she is through and through passionate about that audience and about that brand. when a leader has that kind of energy for the thing that they're doing, it does tend to kind of create clarity for the whole organization.
Kerrie Finch: Mmm.
Justine: So yeah, I think there's there's a lot that she does that powers that company
Kerrie Finch: And you've talked about the work for Germany that's crossed borders, that's been so successful globally. how do you... maintain creative standards across multiple regions and across multiple offices without creating some kind of reductive monoculture.
Justine: it's a challenge that I'm
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: sort of new to. we need great work from from all of the offices And there's been a few highlights this year, but there's more coming. one of the things that I learned some things when I was at Grey and I kind of used this ⁓ like a sort of criteria that I use, work that has a simple, clear idea. So simple you can say it in a sentence. you can be in any culture and I I need to know what your idea is. I don't not care so much of caring about the mood board or the vibe and the big manifesto. Tell me what the idea is in a sem sentence and then I'll I can know if it's gonna be repeatable. a surprising quality to it. Like if we're if you're thinking about the brand or the client's challenge as a story, what is the surprising next beat, in the story of the brand. I need to know it's surprising.
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: in the landscape of work that everybody is exposed to. If it's not doing something or saying something that others wouldn't do or say, I don't know why it would stand out. So a sense of audacity. we talk about craft and making sure that the work is crafted so that every element of it is, keeps your attention. And that doesn't mean that everything has to be cinematic or everything has to be perfect. It just means that choices are made to hold your attention. And the last thing I say is, the work should have a sort of an energy to it. we should be excited to make it because work that's exciting to make and there's an urgency in us that we want to make it tends to have excitement in the world. it doesn't matter where you are, you can be in Mexico or Brazil or Australia and if you've got those things kind of going for you, the work will have, the qualities that needs to be to be great. when I I'm I bang on about this and I sometimes I feel a little bit old school when I do, but I just think that it's just the quality of the best work, when it's it's clear what it's trying to say.
Gully Flowers: S-S-A-C-E. It's a great acronym. I know it's a bad acronym. Simple, surprising,
Kerrie Finch: What's that? S8?
Gully Flowers: audacity, audacious maybe, craft and energy. S-S-A-C-E. We've got it guys. We've nailed it. We've absolutely nailed it.
Justine: Yeah, okay. Thank you. Ellie.
Kerrie Finch: It rolls off the tongue. Trade market immediately.
Justine: I'm hiring you as a copywriter these days.
Gully Flowers: You talked about Armando before, has the strategy creative collaboration changed in your career? I feel like that used to be kind of a bit of a handover and maybe it's a bit more connected now.
Justine: ⁓ we're all getting up in each each other's shit all the time. ⁓ kind of happily, they hire and choose great people to be in your in strategy and it's been, last few years I would say that that's been we've almost been kind of enmeshed as a as two disciplines.
Kerrie Finch: Mm.
Justine: and then we get it enmeshed with production. ⁓ But ⁓ yeah, it's one process and especially when you you need to move quickly on things, And in fact, I
Gully Flowers: Yeah.
Justine: would say Armando's had some ideas ⁓ that have been some of our best ideas, creative ideas, And I'm like poke on Strategy. ⁓ I'm not saying I'm I'm a brilliant strategist, but I'm certainly have opinions. ⁓
Gully Flowers: Yeah. It sounds like flexibility in the process is a key thing because of the, what are your timelines like now?
Justine: it varies. we're about to make our first work for Foot Locker, which we won at the beginning of the year. So that's been a healthy timeline, probably a little bit too long. clients want great work. no one's approving work that's not great just 'cause we've got a timeline.
Kerrie Finch: what is it about Australians? there are a disproportionate number of great Australians in the creative industry
Justine: Yeah, I mean it's interesting. I'm curious to hear if Gully has a s a similar take on this. But I started in ninety-eight as a junior baby copywriter. the culture in Australia, I mean, for me, even the first twelve years of my career I was there. there's this whole thing there called the the toll poppy syndrome, and there's a real cultural i don't know dislike for anyone who kind of gets above anybody else and so you yeah
Kerrie Finch: That's a very British thing as well, isn't it?
Justine: and so there is a real yeah no yeah yeah back down here with us and so i would
Gully Flowers: Anyone with confidence, we just cut it down. Anyone with any self-belief.
Justine: say what happened for me was i spent you know i was very proudly and like i think totally unconsciously it wasn't even a conscious decision but I s ⁓ I was gonna be a co a craft copywriter until the day I died. And in fact, I remember when I was working Publicis Mojo, which is in Sydney, and I was working for Micah Walker. you guys met Micah, I think? ⁓
Gully Flowers: Yeah, we've had Micah yeah. ⁓
Justine: one of the most brilliant creatives he's just like such a a deep, you know, thinking creative. So
Gully Flowers: Yeah. Yes.
Justine: I spent three and a half years working there and then when Micah left they you know asked me if I'd take the role as the E C D that office. And I remember being very consciously like w aware that I hadn't yet done enough great work to to really step into that role and to r and what at the point, yeah, I could have taken the job, but I didn't I didn't have confidence that I'd yet be able to build a great team ⁓ to ⁓ to make me successful there. So then I ended up leaving and going to Wieden and Kennedy in Portland as a copywriter, which I did that for a couple.
Gully Flowers: Decent shop.
Justine: Yeah, it was fine, you know. I mean yeah.
Gully Flowers: Kerrie also worked at Wieden. ⁓ You would never know. She never brings it up.
Kerrie Finch: You'd never know because I know... Gully doesn't let me mention it anymore. No, he doesn't let me mention it.
Gully Flowers: ⁓ We love Wieden Kennedy.
Justine: No, doesn't he? Yeah.
Kerrie Finch: No, we do, but I'm not allowed to talk about it anymore.
Gully Flowers: Well, you do.
Justine: I stopped talking about it a long time ago because I realised like, okay, but I was gonna say because I was really a copywriter for so long and I was in my crafts that you know it there wasn't like a I wasn't I didn't have my eyes on being a creative director and then it kind of became more natural when I was asked to sort of step into a C D role. it kind of gives you just like a really deep grounding in what it is to be a a creative practitioner. and a really sort of empathy, re real empathy for the creatives.
Kerrie Finch: So what do you think the difference is? What do you think the sweet spot is about Aussie creatives
Justine: I have worked with a lot of Australian creatives, in in Australia and in the US, and I would say they are absolutely reliable in terms of like they will crack an idea, they're really good, and it's because they spend more time in the craft part of their career before they jump into leadership. then your leadership is more durable as well when you've got a lot of work that you've made that's really good. And you can build a great team when you've made a lot of great work. And so spending more time and gaining mastery as an art director or a designer or a copywriter before you jump into that phase, I think it's has a lot of value.
Gully Flowers: We're sort of taught to spend the time doing the work versus talking about it, think, in a way, right?
Justine: Yeah, yeah.
Gully Flowers: Whereas I feel like even when I see my own children here in the States, a lot of it is sort of like talking about it instead of doing it. And maybe that's
Justine: Yeah.
Gully Flowers: related.
Kerrie Finch: That's interesting.
Justine: Yeah, I would say we all we almost aren't that great at talking about it. When you go to America,
Gully Flowers: Yeah, no, we're awful at talking about it.
Justine: everybody's really good at talking about it and
Gully Flowers: Yes.
Justine: Australians are like b bumble through.
Kerrie Finch: Hmm,
Gully Flowers: I'll just keep plugging away
Kerrie Finch: interesting.
Gully Flowers: at it and then maybe people will like it, but not too much.
Justine: Yeah. Read this. Read this.
Gully Flowers: I think there's a humility and I think there's a directness and a lack of
Kerrie Finch: Mmm.
Justine: Yeah.
Gully Flowers: fear around calling BS. And this
Kerrie Finch: Mmm.
Gully Flowers: is similar to, know, Jo Shoesmith We've talked to her a couple of times and I think she sees that at Amazon too in her role there. And she actually said there's a, there's sort of a group of Australians in Amazon that, you know, ⁓ having an amazing successful career. And I think a lot of it comes down to that ⁓ lack of ego,
Justine: Yeah.
Gully Flowers: maybe. a directness and like you said, Justine,
Kerrie Finch: hard graft.
Justine: Yeah. It's also
Gully Flowers: putting in the work.
Justine: right.
Kerrie Finch: cracking on.
Justine: You know, you made a joke about women, there's a lot of women. There's I think there's w you came up as a woman in advertising in Australia. Like the it was way more sexist and way more ridiculous
Kerrie Finch: Yeah I can imagine that.
Justine: than anywhere. And so you have a s resilience that is there.
Kerrie Finch: Yeah, I can absolutely imagine that.
Justine: and so I think that is ends up being some something of value. 'Cause you do
Kerrie Finch: you
Justine: a lot of resilience in this business, in leadership.
Gully Flowers: I think it's a great point.
Kerrie Finch: So, ⁓ so 72andSunny what is it that you want the agency to be famous for,
Justine: What do I want this agency to be known for in five years' time? we want to be the premium global creative network. we're not super interested in churning out masses of AI assets,
Kerrie Finch: Mm-hmm.
Justine: low-cost, into the
Gully Flowers: Race to the bottom.
Justine: Yeah, I mean we we we want to do work that has value that has a high value. So I think leaning into, you know, great ideas, great making, really sharp. and it doesn't really know I I I have long since given up predicting the future. I don't know what the industry is gonna look like a year from now. I'm super bored by the AI conversation. I feel like I I'm
Gully Flowers: Yeah.
Justine: not gonna add anything to it. We're just what we're just getting on with it. We're working with the with tools, we're experimenting with things. but we just have no interest in
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: flooding the public consciousness with ugly noise. I want us to be known for doing quality work that that is really successful for our clients. that's the other thing I would say about our culture is we are not interested in doing ⁓ award fodder that doesn't have value. ⁓
Kerrie Finch: Hmm, it's not resonating. Yeah.
Justine: No, it's never been 72s way. I love going t judging on award shows. I love winning. I get more excited about the e.l.f Super Bowl spot and what it did for the business ⁓ than I would get, you know, by g winning an award for it to honest. So, ⁓ I think n ⁓ our culture is ⁓ super focused on doing work that changes the client's business. We get a lot, we get really excited when things work. So there'll be more of that, I think. Yep.
Gully Flowers: And can you tell us about optimism and how you think about, you know, that's a big broad word. tell us a bit more how you think about optimism and how it guides you and the team?
Justine: in the wrong ⁓ hands ⁓ and the wrong sort of translation of it, it can turn into sort of this toxic positivity ⁓ idea and people can get an an idea that 72andSunny is like a bunch of people, nice people trying to be nice to each other. and it is not that the optimism ⁓ and its purest expression is it's clear-eyed, it's really seeing a situation for what it is. It's having a really deep sense of curiosity about where we actually are and what we're facing and what we're we're up against, what our clients are up against. And then always just having a really strong belief and orientation that wherever we are, we can succeed out of it. There's no despair. There's only everything is working in our favor, even the hard things. And so this orientation of optimism, we don't go into, you know, I'm sure that there's moments where we're like, we just have like a hold hands and like whine for 30 seconds. That sometimes happens. But we very quickly move to solutions and and move
Kerrie Finch: Hmm.
Justine: to like an orientation of like what everything that's that feels like it's working against us is actually working for us. ⁓ And honestly
Kerrie Finch: Hmm
Justine: it's a little culty when ⁓ when you kind of join there a way ⁓ in the world, you know? And
Gully Flowers: Belonging. Yeah. Yeah.
Justine: it's like you I it's actually I I think it really has changed me as a person and when I ⁓ think about like how you know I done done a lot of coaching at 72 I've done a lot of ⁓ I'm like I'm a full I'm all in on the the 72 way. And I really do find even my in my personal life and situation sometimes when things aren't going to plan, I'm like, I'm I'm in a I'm curious about what this is offering me. Like what is opportunity
Kerrie Finch: Mmm.
Justine: here?
Kerrie Finch: what would you be telling, you know, a 25 year old today, if they said, Look, you know, I want to be you in X number of years time, what's your advice?
Justine: Think start being me 25 years ago, which has been a real kind of just I've just immersed myself in everything about the business and everything about creativity.
Kerrie Finch: Mm.
Justine: and it was such an enjoyable point in my career, I did a business degree and then I started on reception at McCann and I started writing copy about tract homes, you know, and like naming streets and suburbs and things like that was my first copywriting job. I remember the David Blackley who was a our sort of regional E C D And he sort of did the rounds and sort of shared all the award-winning work from that year. And he played ⁓ the Guinness Surfers spot
Gully Flowers: Mmm.
Kerrie Finch: That's one of my favorites.
Justine: It was like that moment of seeing that spot was a life-changing, career-changing moment for me. Because at the moment, that moment that was the moment I was like, I don't, there's this other type of work. I'm not doing that right now. I'm writing about, I'm writing direct mail about.
Kerrie Finch: Mmm.
Justine: But I was like, I just want to be in that realm of of work. And so I really just got focused on being becoming a super nerd. for the best type of work and the most poetic work. And I really kind of, you know, just had mentors that were great copywriters and I sort of soaked up as much as I could from the people that were willing to teach me.
Kerrie Finch: Sounds like you got loved up on the craft.
Justine: Yeah. And the feeling, the work that made I mean, I felt something about that spot that was so it was su it was like art. It was so beautiful.
Kerrie Finch: Yeah, it was deep wasn't it?
Justine: I don't know. I think the thing about me is I won't ever give up or
Kerrie Finch: Mm.
Justine: the thing that I always can trust in myself is I I am relentless and in my you know, ambition for the agency, ambition for people, ambition for the work. there's sometimes that like I people get bruised around like
Gully Flowers: The resilience.
Justine: Yeah, but it's like, I don't know, like I I've had years where we where I haven't done as well as others and I'm just like I ugh I still even thirty years in, I I I can't stand having an a being average and having an average time. So There's a part of me that's like always gonna be driven to win, succeed, be great.
Kerrie Finch: Mm. Mm.
Justine: Yeah. Die trying with great hair.
Gully Flowers: And incredible hair. Resilient plus incredible hair.
Justine: Second most incredible hair, according to the
Kerrie Finch: Second only to Armando Potter.
Gully Flowers: I don't think so. I don't sorry, Armando. Love the hair, but I don't think I don't think you second.
Kerrie Finch: ⁓ thank you so much ⁓ for coming on Second Wind with us. ⁓ It's been
Justine: In there. Yeah.
Kerrie Finch: an absolute joy.
