Ep. 69: Nice Is Not a Virtue, and Why Real Love Confronts

WEBVTT
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.620
If you love someone, you are willing to confront them for the benefit of the person you love.
00:00:06.700 --> 00:00:10.699
The way I define love is wanting the best for the other person.
00:00:10.839 --> 00:00:16.420
This German magazine was interviewing a woman, and she was a housemaid for Hitler.
00:00:16.879 --> 00:00:19.879
So when she was a teenager, she was his housemaid.
00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:20.480
Wow.
00:00:20.460 --> 00:00:22.460
And they said, so what do you think about Hitler?
00:00:23.379 --> 00:00:25.179
And this was her answer.
00:00:25.899 --> 00:00:28.620
He was a nice man and a good boss.
00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:29.640
Wow.
00:00:31.160 --> 00:01:18.489
so as soon as you can say nice man good boss about Hitler those words cease to mean anything that's crazy so I've never liked the word nice and that kind of sealed it for me because you can be nice and be a monster but can you be loving I mean truly loving and be a monster This is Second Thoughts with Dr. Roger Hall on Dr. Hall.
00:01:18.870 --> 00:01:22.909
This is where your second thoughts can take you to power, freedom, clarity, and calm.
00:01:23.170 --> 00:01:23.810
Good morning, Nation.
00:01:24.189 --> 00:01:24.849
Good morning, Roger.
00:01:25.170 --> 00:01:28.489
I want to talk about unconditional positive regard today.
00:01:28.829 --> 00:01:29.230
Okay.
00:01:29.129 --> 00:01:29.569
What does that mean?
00:01:30.349 --> 00:01:37.670
It is a term created by one of the founders in counseling psychology, a guy named Carl Rogers.
00:01:39.230 --> 00:01:43.930
And Carl Rogers came up in the 1950s and the 1960s.
00:01:43.930 --> 00:01:51.510
and he had a kind of psychotherapy, a kind of counseling, he called client-centered therapy.
00:01:51.849 --> 00:02:00.030
And they've, he created this alternate way of doing psychotherapy or counseling.
00:02:00.750 --> 00:02:03.430
And it was very popular.
00:02:03.430 --> 00:02:06.709
And what he said is, I don't need to tell anybody anything.
00:02:07.090 --> 00:02:15.590
I just need to listen to what they say, reflect it back to them, and have for them unconditional positive regard.
00:02:16.229 --> 00:02:16.629
Okay.
00:02:16.490 --> 00:02:20.710
And so he would, he would reframe what people say.
00:02:20.930 --> 00:02:24.849
He would actively listen and then say it back.
00:02:25.250 --> 00:02:28.050
So all this stuff you've heard counselors do.
00:02:28.310 --> 00:02:30.949
So what I hear you saying is, yeah, that's all car runners.
00:02:30.969 --> 00:02:37.430
Yeah, I mean, it's even bled out to like the personal space where like people are like, oh, yeah, I could be a psychologist or a therapist piece.
00:02:37.650 --> 00:02:38.509
I'm good at listening.
00:02:39.030 --> 00:02:39.430
Yeah.
00:02:39.590 --> 00:02:41.189
I mean, and that's the foundation.
00:02:41.189 --> 00:03:00.110
And what he said, and this goes to what we talked about last time, is that he believed that if you just create the space for people to do this work, that's all you need, is you just need to provide that opportunity and they'll discover it on their own.
00:03:00.650 --> 00:03:08.810
And that insight was necessary and sufficient for people to get better.
00:03:08.810 --> 00:03:10.729
So people would come to their own conclusions.
00:03:11.189 --> 00:03:15.610
And he really viewed himself as being a non-directive guide.
00:03:15.629 --> 00:03:19.009
So it was a non-directive way to counsel people.
00:03:20.129 --> 00:03:35.129
One of the key elements, he said, is that you have to have for these people unconditional positive regard, which means no matter what they say, you've got to regard them positively, that a negative evaluation of your client is a problem.
00:03:35.169 --> 00:03:35.569
Okay.
00:03:36.069 --> 00:03:42.050
And he said he used the words unconditional positive regard because of what he wanted to say was love.
00:03:42.930 --> 00:03:45.389
But love in the 1960s was too fuzzy a turn.
00:03:46.289 --> 00:03:47.909
And it was, you know, really in the 60s, though?
00:03:48.129 --> 00:03:48.530
Too squishy.
00:03:48.710 --> 00:03:51.610
Well, you know, I mean, Summer of Love happened in 1968.
00:03:51.949 --> 00:04:07.930
But if you think about the early 1960s, it really was an extension of that post-war, Korean war ethos of, of, you know, suck it up, you know, rub some dirt on it, you know, that sort of mentality.
00:04:07.930 --> 00:04:10.969
And it wasn't until 1968, the summer of love.
00:04:11.189 --> 00:04:16.889
where the whole psychedelic movement came in and, you know, everything kind of changed.
00:04:17.709 --> 00:04:18.110
Yeah.
00:04:18.230 --> 00:04:18.670
Even to those say?
00:04:18.870 --> 00:04:25.430
It was getting ready to change, but that was the, that was a pivotal moment.
00:04:25.649 --> 00:04:27.470
So he didn't use the word love.
00:04:29.230 --> 00:04:38.870
What we see now is that they're, like in the coaching programs, coaching credentialing programs, they don't want you to direct anybody.
00:04:38.870 --> 00:04:40.790
They don't want you to give anybody advice.
00:04:41.310 --> 00:04:47.281
What they want you to do is use really Rosarian therapy techniques, which is asking questions, reflect, don't give your opinion, let the person discover it on their own.
00:04:47.281 --> 00:04:53.254
All Carl Rogers stuff.
00:04:53.254 --> 00:04:59.225
So that's all the fundamentals now that they want you to do in therapy. Yeah.
00:04:59.225 --> 00:05:05.197
And I would say, I would say there are pieces of what he did in terms of teaching people how to listen carefully that are very, very valuable.
00:05:05.197 --> 00:05:11.170
Well, that was going to be my next question is like, is it used?
00:05:11.189 --> 00:05:13.350
Does it actually lead to change?
00:05:14.910 --> 00:05:16.149
I would say it's an ingredient.
00:05:16.629 --> 00:05:19.310
I mean, if you're a jerk, nobody's going to talk to you.
00:05:19.470 --> 00:05:19.870
Of course.
00:05:19.970 --> 00:05:29.129
And if you look at Carl Rogers, at least in his persona when he was doing counseling, he was very gentle and very soft and very approachable.
00:05:29.389 --> 00:05:31.550
You know, he was kind of soft kitty everybody.
00:05:32.930 --> 00:05:38.470
And so it made it easy for people to talk to him.
00:05:39.310 --> 00:05:44.269
So in terms of foundational skills, those are good foundational skills.
00:05:44.829 --> 00:05:48.730
But as I've said, that's neither necessary nor sufficient for change.
00:05:48.970 --> 00:05:49.370
Yeah.
00:05:49.310 --> 00:06:00.769
And so my critique is that if you look, if you look at the efficacy rates of client-centered therapy or Rosarian therapy versus a weight control group.
00:06:00.829 --> 00:06:01.230
Yeah.
00:06:02.069 --> 00:06:02.470
Yeah.
00:06:02.230 --> 00:06:03.089
It's about the same.
00:06:04.449 --> 00:06:06.670
So people don't really get better.
00:06:07.129 --> 00:06:07.529
Okay.
00:06:07.529 --> 00:06:12.279
Yeah.
00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:17.029
So what he pointed out, there's some foundational skills that are ingredients, but just because I have flour and sugar, I don't have a cake.
00:06:17.129 --> 00:06:17.850
Yeah. Okay.
00:06:19.670 --> 00:06:23.463
There's other things that have to happen to make it a delicious cake.
00:06:23.463 --> 00:06:27.257
I mean, give me a, you know, a sack of flour and a sack of sugar, and I don't have anything.
00:06:27.257 --> 00:06:31.050
Yeah. I don't have anything really good. No, nothing good.
00:06:32.269 --> 00:06:34.750
And that's kind of what his ingredients are.
00:06:37.529 --> 00:06:44.930
What has infected the whole psychotherapeutic community, though, is that unconditional positive regard.
00:06:45.329 --> 00:06:54.870
And, in fact, some of the state statutes that regulate psychologists that were written in the 1970s came out of that movement.
00:06:54.870 --> 00:06:58.910
It says, you know, you can't impose your values on somebody else.
00:06:58.930 --> 00:07:02.610
You have to be completely value-free and just unconditionally accept it.
00:07:02.610 --> 00:07:04.689
We've already talked about it's not really possible.
00:07:04.689 --> 00:07:07.389
Well, in my view, no, it's not possible.
00:07:07.529 --> 00:07:13.750
And even the statement that you have to be value-free is a value.
00:07:13.870 --> 00:07:14.290
It's a value.
00:07:14.670 --> 00:07:15.470
Yeah, exactly.
00:07:17.110 --> 00:07:17.629
IRLic.
00:07:18.949 --> 00:08:02.889
But what you have coupled there are the issues of confidentiality, which means that there are in each state, they're slightly different, but on the whole, they're generally that if you tell me, something in the boundaries of a psychotherapeutic relationship, unless it's child abuse, vulnerable adult abuse, suicide, you have to, as long as they don't tell you one of those things, you have to kind of help them understand what they've done. So if somebody says, yeah, I cut a guy's finger off. Well, you can't report it. There's no consequence.
00:08:02.889 --> 00:09:43.669
You're stuck with that information and and you go well how did that make you feel rather than say what yeah you got a guy's finger off yeah what did you think of that i mean that's that you know that's not good yeah okay in in in some of the training that many psychotherapists get is that you've got so so how did it make you feel when you saw his finger come off do you think in that specific case like calling it out cause him to not open up more and the whole point is well see that's that that's the argument yeah yeah well if you if you show if you judge him yeah then he's not gonna say more and he's not gonna get to a cure yeah maybe but maybe he needs somebody to tell him boy that's a really bad idea it actually stopped yeah right and so so so he wanted to use unconditional positive regard in replacement of the word love and I don't think he understood the word love because I make a I make a distinction between nice and loving yeah unconditional positive regard is nice okay which means you're pleasant your you know how to behave in public yeah you don't ruffle feathers you make people feel good that's nice yeah there's no virtue there right to me love and being loving sometimes requires a confrontation and and if you love someone you are willing to confront them for the benefit of the person you love.
00:09:44.149 --> 00:09:51.669
And the way I define love, and it's not a perfect definition, the way I define love is wanting the best for the other person.
00:09:51.730 --> 00:10:01.570
So I'm not talking about romantic love, but if I want the best for some other person and am actively working to that end, that to me is love.
00:10:01.610 --> 00:10:04.830
And so you can love people in your workplace because you want their best.
00:10:04.929 --> 00:10:05.409
Yeah.
00:10:05.610 --> 00:10:07.129
It's not going to get you in trouble with HR.
00:10:07.149 --> 00:10:07.549
Yeah.
00:10:08.929 --> 00:10:13.370
But sometimes if you love somebody, you have to confront them for their benefit.
00:10:13.509 --> 00:10:13.909
Yeah.
00:10:14.309 --> 00:10:15.490
So let's use this example.
00:10:18.230 --> 00:10:23.649
My daughter, when she was a little girl, she had cavities in every one of her teeth.
00:10:24.070 --> 00:10:24.769
Oh, my gosh.
00:10:24.789 --> 00:10:25.669
I mean, even the front ones.
00:10:26.110 --> 00:10:26.789
She had cavities every.
00:10:26.850 --> 00:10:31.850
I mean, she got great adult teeth, beautiful smile, you know, very good adult teeth.
00:10:32.350 --> 00:10:36.470
But because she had all these cavities, I mean, we brushed her teeth like crazy.
00:10:39.659 --> 00:10:42.259
You know, I was on a first-name basis with the dentist.
00:10:42.460 --> 00:10:49.559
I'm sure I funded, you know, some, you know, jet ski or something that he bought for his family.
00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:53.840
But so, so all of these teeth are filled.
00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:54.960
So what do we do?
00:10:55.360 --> 00:11:00.419
Well, you know, at some point with little kids, you kind of hand over the toothbrushing to them.
00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:05.399
Yeah. Because if you've ever brushed a kid's teeth at night, what's it like?
00:11:05.539 --> 00:11:06.259
I mean, you've got kids.
00:11:06.360 --> 00:11:06.779
What's it like?
00:11:06.779 --> 00:11:09.080
It's like wrestling a WWE fighter.
00:11:09.259 --> 00:11:10.559
Yeah, I mean, yes, yes.
00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:13.720
And so they're ready to, you got them in a headlock.
00:11:13.899 --> 00:11:14.580
They're screaming.
00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:15.360
They're screaming.
00:11:15.539 --> 00:11:16.519
And then they bite the toothbrush.
00:11:16.700 --> 00:11:17.399
They buy, okay, right.
00:11:17.539 --> 00:11:18.980
And so you're walking the toothbrush again.
00:11:19.399 --> 00:11:20.019
And they're wiggling.
00:11:20.379 --> 00:11:23.860
Eventually, at some point, you get the angle off.
00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:25.179
You jam them in the gum.
00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:25.679
Yes, that happened.
00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:26.940
Yeah, even more.
00:11:27.100 --> 00:11:28.059
And now it's your fault.
00:11:28.100 --> 00:11:28.720
Now it's your fault.
00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:29.320
Okay.
00:11:29.740 --> 00:11:35.860
So, so we kept doing this with our daughter long after other people gave up, right?
00:11:35.860 --> 00:11:36.259
Yeah.
00:11:36.899 --> 00:11:39.419
Because we We loved her, right?
00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:39.879
Yeah.
00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:43.179
So if I was a nice father, what would I do?
00:11:43.820 --> 00:11:47.580
Oh, you know, it's really hard and she gets, it hurts sometimes.
00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:48.659
Like, that's what I would imagine.
00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:49.320
Right.
00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:52.080
And then you go, and those teeth are going to fall out anyway.
00:11:52.779 --> 00:11:54.159
So let's go to bed and read a story.
00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:56.480
I would not confront her.
00:11:56.620 --> 00:12:02.279
I would not do the difficult thing because I wanted to avoid conflict.
00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:03.080
Yeah, right.
00:12:03.419 --> 00:12:03.820
Okay.
00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:10.279
loving people engage in conflict for the benefit of the other person.
00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:10.679
Yeah.
00:12:10.899 --> 00:12:14.580
So this is why you put your kid in the headlock because you love them and you want them to be healthy.
00:12:14.679 --> 00:12:15.080
Yeah.
00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:23.179
There's even like two, I want to mention, like I have my definition of love is to know what want and do what's in the best interest of somebody else.
00:12:23.419 --> 00:12:27.879
And just the knowing what somebody needs is a whole action itself.
00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:33.019
So knowing that her teeth or she needs to know the pattern to brush her teeth for when she's older.
00:12:33.019 --> 00:12:42.080
or to take care of what she's given now is a whole action of love and then want and do what's in the best interests or like taking action getting it done.
00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:44.700
Desire that outcome and then act on it.
00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:46.559
So I do all these things.
00:12:46.940 --> 00:12:49.000
So I seem like the mean guy.
00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:49.759
Yeah.
00:12:50.460 --> 00:12:51.799
But I'm doing it out of love.
00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:52.460
Yeah, absolutely.
00:12:52.500 --> 00:13:01.259
And I changed my thinking about the word nice because in our Western culture, nice is a virtue.
00:13:01.259 --> 00:13:02.639
I don't think it's a virtue.
00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:13.080
And what changed it for me is some years ago, this German magazine was interviewing a woman and she was a housemaid for Hitler.
00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:16.559
So when she was a teenager, she was his housemaid.
00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:17.120
Wow.
00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:19.080
And they said, so what do you think about Hitler?
00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:21.799
And this was her answer.
00:13:22.779 --> 00:13:25.299
He was a nice man and a good boss.
00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:26.460
Wow.
00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:32.620
So as soon as you can say nice man, good boss.
00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:35.000
boss about Hitler.
00:13:36.500 --> 00:13:38.159
Those words cease to mean anything.
00:13:38.299 --> 00:13:38.799
Yeah, that's crazy.
00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:45.000
So, so I've never liked the word nice and that kind of sealed it for me.
00:13:46.460 --> 00:13:49.779
Because you can be nice and be a monster.
00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:50.960
Yeah.
00:13:50.940 --> 00:13:55.460
But can you be loving, I mean, truly loving and be a monster.
00:13:55.639 --> 00:13:57.539
Now, you can be seem mean.
00:13:57.860 --> 00:14:11.740
So here's the problem we have in psychotherapy is psychotherapists, are by and large, trained to have unconditional positive regard for people and to not judge them and to not value them.
00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:13.539
Well, in reality, you know what?
00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:17.919
That's the job of therapists is to judge people.
00:14:18.340 --> 00:14:21.860
Now, let's make another distinction between judging and judgmental.
00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:25.720
Yeah, I definitely think there needs to be distinct in every because I feel like one is closed off.
00:14:25.860 --> 00:14:26.639
One is correction.
00:14:27.259 --> 00:14:27.919
Well, yeah, keep going.
00:14:28.179 --> 00:14:32.620
So to judge is to discern, is to evaluate the approach.
00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:40.360
and cons. Okay. To be judgmental is, is to think yourself better than the other person.
00:14:40.580 --> 00:14:43.850
Okay. To think the other person is inferior and you are superior.
00:14:43.850 --> 00:14:50.830
You know, one thief telling another thief, you should stop stealing. That's judging, right?
00:14:50.830 --> 00:14:58.399
And, you know, I'm an expert at stealing, so I know. But a person who believes they're better than, that's judgmental.
00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:10.100
Do you see the distinction. Yeah, or like the thief example, like the thief is planning a heist and tells the other thief, you should stop. You should stop.
00:15:10.299 --> 00:15:12.179
Yeah, this one. You should stop stealing.
00:15:12.279 --> 00:15:13.799
Yeah. But he's in the middle of planning a heist.
00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:16.559
Oh, oh, well, the hypocrisy.
00:15:16.740 --> 00:15:22.120
The hypocrisy. That's kind of kind of be a little bit of judgment too. Yeah, but see, here's the thing about hypocrisy.
00:15:25.129 --> 00:15:30.870
Hypocrisy can only be addressed to people who have a moral code.
00:15:32.210 --> 00:15:32.950
Oh, okay.
00:15:33.269 --> 00:15:38.273
People who don't have a moral code. Yeah, they wouldn't even see it.
00:15:38.273 --> 00:15:42.556
Well, they're not hypocritical because they're, they're just pursuing whatever they want.
00:15:42.556 --> 00:15:46.839
They don't, they don't have a moral code. They don't have any, any hurdle.
00:15:46.839 --> 00:15:51.120
I mean, the least hypocritical person in my life, in my history of life was Larry Flint.
00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:55.403
You know who he was? He published a magazine called Hustler. Oh, okay, yeah.
00:15:55.403 --> 00:15:59.687
And he said, it's just sex. It's just gambling.
00:15:59.687 --> 00:16:03.970
It's just, you know, he, I mean, he viewed people as transactional, least hypocritical person in the world because he had no more.
00:16:03.970 --> 00:16:04.750
moral standard.
00:16:05.129 --> 00:16:11.789
Okay, anybody who has a higher moral standard, they're always going to fail.
00:16:11.929 --> 00:16:12.330
Yeah.
00:16:12.549 --> 00:16:13.990
And of course they'll be a hypocrite.
00:16:14.110 --> 00:16:14.950
We're all hypocrites.
00:16:15.289 --> 00:16:15.690
Yeah.
00:16:15.549 --> 00:16:22.149
Higher your own self-moral standard, the more likely you are to be a hypocrite is because you're completely consistent with your value system.
00:16:22.230 --> 00:16:22.950
Yeah, that's what it is.
00:16:23.090 --> 00:16:28.590
Anyone who has a high value system with high moral hurdles, they're always going to fall short.
00:16:28.690 --> 00:16:31.149
That's just kind of the nature of the animal.
00:16:31.250 --> 00:16:31.690
Yeah.
00:16:32.409 --> 00:16:32.809
Makes sense.
00:16:32.970 --> 00:16:33.370
Okay.
00:16:33.049 --> 00:16:39.475
Okay. So back to judging and judgmentalness and judgmentalism. Psychotherapists evaluate.
00:16:39.475 --> 00:16:45.899
That's what they do, is they evaluate. But then they're told, but don't.
00:16:45.899 --> 00:16:52.325
Yeah, that's really unhealthy behavior, but you just got a level.
00:16:52.325 --> 00:16:58.750
So you're going to let a person persist in an unhealthy pattern of behavior until they discover this is not going to work out for them.
00:16:58.830 --> 00:17:00.929
Like the cutting off the finger example. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it felt pretty good.
00:17:00.929 --> 00:17:03.029
You know, and I'm not.
00:17:03.049 --> 00:17:05.589
I've worked with people who don't have consciences.
00:17:05.829 --> 00:17:06.230
Yeah.
00:17:06.650 --> 00:17:08.990
And they were never going to discover that.
00:17:09.630 --> 00:17:10.029
Wow.
00:17:10.549 --> 00:17:10.950
Wow.
00:17:11.230 --> 00:17:11.630
Yeah.
00:17:11.549 --> 00:17:13.190
That's actual like psychotherapy, isn't it?
00:17:13.890 --> 00:17:16.569
Well, counseling versus psychotherapy.
00:17:17.049 --> 00:17:17.450
Yeah.
00:17:17.289 --> 00:17:24.529
I mean, when you're, when you're dealing with people without a conscience, those are psychopaths or sociopaths.
00:17:24.569 --> 00:17:25.349
Yeah, sociopaths.
00:17:25.769 --> 00:17:26.670
They lack empathy.
00:17:27.029 --> 00:17:32.230
They, they don't have a well-formed moral code or.
00:17:32.230 --> 00:17:33.730
They don't have UPR even.
00:17:35.069 --> 00:17:36.029
Unconditional positive regard.
00:17:36.130 --> 00:17:37.730
No, actually, they're pretty good at that.
00:17:37.990 --> 00:17:39.569
Oh, that's interesting.
00:17:39.730 --> 00:17:40.170
Wow.
00:17:40.529 --> 00:17:41.630
Are really quite good.
00:17:41.950 --> 00:17:42.549
They're very nice.
00:17:42.869 --> 00:17:43.769
They're very pleasant.
00:17:44.529 --> 00:17:45.890
That's a good point, Roger.
00:17:45.910 --> 00:17:54.170
They understand the, the subtleties of, I mean, that's why con artists are so good at me is they understand so superficial relationships.
00:17:54.430 --> 00:17:58.930
They have what would be called superficial empathy, but they have deep understanding.
00:17:59.170 --> 00:18:00.069
That's a great point.
00:18:00.569 --> 00:18:02.049
I mean, so they're very nice.
00:18:02.230 --> 00:18:02.970
Yeah, they're not loving.
00:18:03.589 --> 00:18:04.349
But they're just not loving.
00:18:05.950 --> 00:18:06.349
Yeah.
00:18:06.509 --> 00:18:09.990
So that's a little, that's like a crack in society, if you really think about it.
00:18:10.150 --> 00:18:10.670
What do you mean?
00:18:10.910 --> 00:18:19.509
Like, we put people who, who are nice and in high regard, but those same people are not loving to others and their actions definitely no sense.
00:18:19.509 --> 00:18:20.069
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
00:18:20.069 --> 00:18:22.890
I know them personally, but it's like, it's like a societal crack.
00:18:23.190 --> 00:18:24.049
It's like, okay, there you go.
00:18:24.109 --> 00:18:25.630
There's proof on what we're talking about.
00:18:25.650 --> 00:18:26.049
Yeah.
00:18:26.490 --> 00:18:29.809
And we tend to like people who are pleasant.
00:18:30.029 --> 00:18:31.329
You know how to behave in public.
00:18:31.349 --> 00:18:31.750
Yeah.
00:18:31.470 --> 00:18:36.890
But sometimes the people who don't know how to behave in public are the people who we really need.
00:18:36.970 --> 00:18:40.690
Yeah, I'm just talking about even like the link that nice is loving.
00:18:41.009 --> 00:18:41.890
Yeah, it's not.
00:18:42.049 --> 00:18:42.450
They're different.
00:18:42.529 --> 00:18:44.470
Yeah, because that's a right example right there.
00:18:44.690 --> 00:18:45.250
Right, right.
00:18:45.390 --> 00:18:47.029
Con artists are great at being nice.
00:18:47.490 --> 00:18:47.890
Yeah.
00:18:48.230 --> 00:18:48.809
That's crazy.
00:18:50.130 --> 00:18:50.529
Yeah.
00:18:50.670 --> 00:19:00.009
So I guess when we get to it, what I hope people will learn is that unconditional positive regard was supposed to be a stand-in for love.
00:19:00.009 --> 00:19:01.970
But it was really a stand-in for nice.
00:19:03.049 --> 00:19:04.369
And nice is not a virtue.
00:19:04.789 --> 00:19:08.130
It, as you say, is it points out a crack in our society.
00:19:08.750 --> 00:19:20.309
And to believe that we can, that we can help people without any sort of basis in a value, you know, you just got to accept everything.
00:19:20.670 --> 00:19:21.069
Yeah.
00:19:21.170 --> 00:19:21.569
Right.
00:19:21.849 --> 00:19:27.650
You know, I, I don't think that's, I don't think that's going to do our society any good.
00:19:27.769 --> 00:19:28.170
No.
00:19:28.170 --> 00:19:29.990
And that's like, like, if you go back to.
00:19:30.009 --> 00:19:37.829
to what I feel like the whole point in therapy is, is to improve, to get better, not to pander.
00:19:38.990 --> 00:19:46.009
Yeah, I mean, I think so, but there are people who, who have different opinions.
00:19:46.210 --> 00:19:57.769
They believe that if you do Rogarian work, that will be necessary and sufficient for people to change for the better in the way, in the way that they see fit.
00:19:57.769 --> 00:20:08.470
Well, maybe that's not a really good idea to let people guide themselves.
00:20:08.630 --> 00:20:13.430
I mean, if you let a five-year-old choose what he's going to eat for dinner.
00:20:13.529 --> 00:20:14.509
You wouldn't brush his teeth.
00:20:15.470 --> 00:20:20.710
Yeah, I mean, we were looking at this kid the other day and it's like, who chose his clothes?
00:20:21.009 --> 00:20:24.630
And it's like, it may be one of those days where his mom said, you can choose your own clothes.
00:20:24.910 --> 00:20:25.789
And it shows.
00:20:25.789 --> 00:20:30.730
close. Yeah.
00:20:30.730 --> 00:20:35.670
So when people want to improve their lives, they don't want just a neutral observer.
00:20:36.089 --> 00:20:42.349
They want someone not just with knowledge, but with wisdom, which is the ability to apply that knowledge.
00:20:42.690 --> 00:20:47.500
And I think that may be. And you want somebody who's loving.
00:20:47.500 --> 00:20:52.309
Like, to be quite frank, like, if you're going to go to a therapist or be vulnerable with somebody, like, you actually would love to receive a little bit of love.
00:20:52.309 --> 00:20:57.390
Yeah, which is that willing to confront for your other person's benefit.
00:20:57.769 --> 00:21:02.309
And it's not always confrontation, but in this situation, it definitely could be.
00:21:02.529 --> 00:21:04.230
Well, let's define confrontation.
00:21:05.950 --> 00:21:08.650
So confrontation, I'll give you an example.
00:21:09.089 --> 00:21:11.849
So let's say the finger thing is on the extreme end.
00:21:12.069 --> 00:21:13.470
That's on the extreme end, right?
00:21:13.630 --> 00:21:14.029
Yeah.
00:21:13.890 --> 00:21:26.910
Well, let's say it's something where it's like you've been talking nasty to your wife and the person's talking to the therapist about Like, yeah, my wife is just, you know, she just mosey's about and it's just all the this or that.
00:21:27.029 --> 00:21:29.549
I mean, regardless of the reality, like, that's not nice.
00:21:29.670 --> 00:21:30.289
That's not loving.
00:21:30.910 --> 00:21:32.529
That's the way the person is talking.
00:21:32.849 --> 00:21:36.470
The talking or even the way it's looking at his wife is not loving.
00:21:36.930 --> 00:21:44.250
And so it would take somebody like, I would hope if I were meeting with the therapist, it would take somebody like, no, actually, like, we need to look at that.
00:21:44.430 --> 00:21:45.589
Like, where's your heart in that?
00:21:45.650 --> 00:21:47.730
Yeah, that's a pretty hard confrontation.
00:21:48.009 --> 00:21:49.710
But you can even have softer confrontations.
00:21:49.849 --> 00:21:50.250
Okay.
00:21:50.349 --> 00:21:51.750
Which is, yeah, I mean, you can ask the question.
00:21:52.309 --> 00:21:52.849
Are you sure?
00:21:53.869 --> 00:21:55.349
That's a confrontation as well.
00:21:55.410 --> 00:21:56.930
Oh, how you handle it is the confrontation.
00:21:57.390 --> 00:21:57.829
Yeah, good point.
00:21:59.890 --> 00:22:07.670
The way confrontation has been defined in a popular culture is that there is like this sort of fist fight and there's raised voices.
00:22:08.130 --> 00:22:12.869
But anytime there's a disagreement or a course direction, that's a confrontation.
00:22:13.269 --> 00:22:13.670
Okay.
00:22:13.990 --> 00:22:19.329
And so really skilled therapists are able to confront gently.
00:22:19.470 --> 00:22:19.869
Yeah.
00:22:19.690 --> 00:22:22.839
Yeah. And, and they're able to guide and direct and persuade gently.
00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:25.990
And so there are some skills.
00:22:26.009 --> 00:22:32.680
So it's received. Yeah. So that they're, so that it's received. Maybe even some of those fundamental ones you were talking about with UPR.
00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:39.309
Well, not, not unconditional positive regard, but reflective listening. Yeah. Right. Understanding deeply, paying really close attention.
00:22:39.309 --> 00:22:42.670
Yeah.
00:22:43.029 --> 00:22:47.730
All of that, again, those are important tools, important ingredients, but they're not the whole thing.
00:22:47.730 --> 00:22:51.549
At some point, you guys, man, that's probably not going to get you what you want.
00:22:51.829 --> 00:22:52.230
Yeah.
00:22:54.069 --> 00:23:00.049
And getting the person to change requires a kind of persuasion.
00:23:00.470 --> 00:23:00.869
Yeah.
00:23:01.650 --> 00:23:02.769
That's what I mean.
00:23:02.849 --> 00:23:04.829
That's what I would want if I'm meeting with somebody.
00:23:04.930 --> 00:23:06.069
That's love as well.
00:23:06.910 --> 00:23:07.369
Right.
00:23:07.750 --> 00:23:15.750
And again, it involves confrontation.
00:23:16.109 --> 00:23:18.230
It isn't always direct.
00:23:18.230 --> 00:23:20.130
It isn't always in your face.
00:23:21.289 --> 00:23:24.069
but it is the desire for the other person's best.
00:23:24.369 --> 00:23:27.130
I think you can have the debate.
00:23:27.589 --> 00:23:30.769
How can another person know what is in the other person's best interest?
00:23:31.569 --> 00:23:33.630
I think that's a legitimate question.
00:23:33.910 --> 00:23:35.109
I think that's part of loving.
00:23:36.170 --> 00:23:39.910
Well, I mean, can one stranger know what's best for another person?
00:23:40.309 --> 00:23:41.130
Oh, a stranger, okay.
00:23:42.029 --> 00:23:45.069
And even a paid professional, can they really know?
00:23:45.130 --> 00:23:45.529
Yeah.
00:23:45.609 --> 00:23:46.630
Well, I mean, you can guess.
00:23:47.329 --> 00:23:50.529
I mean, you can say, okay, outside of this box, Yeah, these things are bad.
00:23:50.630 --> 00:23:51.109
Right, right, right.
00:23:51.529 --> 00:23:53.210
Oh, you want to mainline heroin?
00:23:53.390 --> 00:23:54.369
Well, how does that make you feel?
00:23:54.869 --> 00:23:58.369
You know, I, I mean, so I think we can, we can draw a box around.
00:23:58.589 --> 00:24:00.589
Some of them say, certainly some of these things are out.
00:24:00.890 --> 00:24:06.769
There's some gray area, and then there's some things that are, you know, you can never know.
00:24:06.970 --> 00:24:09.670
But, I mean, we can know some things are wrong.
00:24:09.890 --> 00:24:10.529
Like, can I get a figure out.
00:24:11.150 --> 00:24:12.170
Yeah, because, yeah.
00:24:13.289 --> 00:24:14.690
And, of course, it's a good example of these.
00:24:14.890 --> 00:24:15.529
It's extreme, right.
00:24:16.049 --> 00:24:19.210
But somebody could go, well, I can see a reason why you might want to do that.
00:24:19.490 --> 00:24:22.650
Okay, there's always an exception, right?
00:24:23.309 --> 00:24:24.569
Okay, you hate me, though, I don't know.
00:24:24.569 --> 00:24:27.130
Just landed in the Andes and you have nothing to eat.
00:24:27.329 --> 00:24:28.650
What are you going to do?
00:24:29.690 --> 00:24:30.950
You know what I'm referring to, right?
00:24:31.410 --> 00:24:32.049
I think so.
00:24:32.329 --> 00:24:33.009
It's cannibalism.
00:24:34.769 --> 00:24:38.250
So, I mean, you can play these out, right?
00:24:38.369 --> 00:24:38.769
Yeah.
00:24:38.690 --> 00:24:42.069
But generally, yeah, cutting somebody's fingers off is a bad idea.
00:24:42.250 --> 00:24:43.950
Eating other people is a bad idea.
00:24:44.349 --> 00:24:46.150
Those are, I think, very safe assumptions.
00:24:46.650 --> 00:24:49.130
Well, I, you know, that's just me.
00:24:49.490 --> 00:24:49.890
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:49.990 --> 00:24:52.569
Other people, they just, oh, just let everybody do what they want.
00:24:52.569 --> 00:24:53.069
Yeah, you know what?
00:24:53.190 --> 00:24:54.549
It's different kind of culture, Roger.
00:24:54.910 --> 00:24:55.490
We wouldn't understand.
00:24:55.769 --> 00:24:56.170
Right.
00:24:56.130 --> 00:25:02.589
And so, see, to me, that assumes that there is no, there is no truth.
00:25:02.769 --> 00:25:03.170
Yeah.
00:25:03.210 --> 00:25:08.710
And that assumption of a lack of truth, either objective truth or moral truth.
00:25:08.769 --> 00:25:09.170
Yeah.
00:25:09.130 --> 00:25:14.789
Yeah, I think if you, if you give that up, then, yeah, anything, anything goes.
00:25:14.950 --> 00:25:15.349
Yeah.
00:25:15.269 --> 00:25:17.450
And I don't live in that world.
00:25:18.130 --> 00:25:19.470
No, it's tough to love in that world.
00:25:19.490 --> 00:25:24.630
world. But it is easy to be nice. It is really easy to be nice. Thank you, Roger.
00:25:24.769 --> 00:25:32.740
Yeah, absolutely. So this is second thoughts with Roger Hall. If you like this content, please like, subscribe, and the best compliment is share it with a friend.
00:25:32.740 --> 00:25:37.710
If you have a comment or question, please leave it in the comment section.
00:25:37.710 --> 00:25:45.349
If you'd like us to address some question in the future, we've got people looking for those. So thank you and have a great day.