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I mean, I asked you early on about did you expect to get where you are?
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You have had an incredibly unique career path to this to this point.
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And we've got your your book sat on top of mine, taking pride of place there.
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How on earth does someone end up in a position of writing what is one of the formative books on nature of our time?
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How did how did the how did the contents page of your career make that book a reality?
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Well, first it's great to be here and great to meet you in person, Rich.
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I um an admirer of what you're doing here, so um this is great.
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I just collected stories like yours and poured it into that book.
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Um I wrote the book before I knew about oxygen conservation, by the way, but uh my yeah, my career path, as you know, started in the United Nations.
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I was um there for 15 years before that.
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I was with the International Union for the Conservation of Nature with ICN, um, setting up our office in the Caucasus and in Southeast Europe and running what was at that point, our program for Commonwealth Independent States in Eastern Europe.
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And so nature's always been the red thread in my career.
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And that started way before university and started when I was a kid.
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Um, I think I did my first restoration project when I was 10.
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Um, the pond in my grandparents' garden.
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Um and so to me, it all makes sense, and I didn't really think about it, but I I see that it's actually not very common for people to shift from an NGO to government, to I worked for the European Commission for a while, to the UN.
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And then I had at the UN what is uh basically lifetime employment.
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I was a civil servant with a diplomatic passport and contract end date, I think somewhere in 2038.
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Um and I would, I actually never thought I would change to work for the private sector.
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Um but then four years ago, five years ago, Salesforce approached me because they were setting up what is called the Trillion Trees Initiative.
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You remember in the early 2020s with planting trees was the thing, right?
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Everybody was like, oh yeah, it's just plant lots of trees.
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That will solve everything.
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And um they were extremely well intentioned and um set up the Trillion Trees Initiative with the World Economic Forum.
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And at that time, I set up the UN decade on ecosystem illustration at UNEP.
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And so they asked for advice.
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How do you how should we go about this?
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How should we, which stakeholders should we work with?
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How do you what is a trillion trees?
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What does that mean?
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Um so I advised that initiative, and then over time they kept coming back to me with questions.
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It's like, well, what do we do now?
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How do we how do we make our own commitment of 100 million trees?
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How do we do that?
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And at some point that is the well, why didn't you come and work for us and uh set up a nature program, set up a water program?
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What's this thing called TNFD, you know, task force on nature-related financial disclosures?
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All those things were relatively new to many businesses just a few years ago.
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And um I thought long and hard about leaving the UN because I really believe in the mission and the mandate of the UN.
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But um I thought at that point in my career at least, I had done what I could to set a framework for what needs to be done.
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Setting up the UN decade on ecosystem restoration, setting up a strategy.
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I was part of many of these international agreements and discussions about the global biodiversity framework.
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But there was there was no oomph in it.
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You know, there were the there were these decisions, but there was no engine to run it.
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At least it wasn't running well-tuned and in the right direction.
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So when I researched Salesforce, I saw that they have about 200,000 corporate customers, all the Fortune funder companies, 60,000 NGOs run on Salesforce.
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And there's a trust relationship with all these organizations.
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It's almost like a catalyst within the private sector with connections to all these entities.
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So I thought, wow, that's a that's a catalytic point where you can make sure they know what biodiversity is and nature and why it matters.
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Um so I made that shift.
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Haven't regretted it.
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It's a super on, it's a super exciting learning journey every day.
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I mean, now with the rise of AI, it's uh constantly catching up on what's what's new and what's the latest.
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Um but yeah, I then thought I should put some of that into a book so we can I can share that message of the basic shifts we need to value nature and to build global ecological literacy, which is partly what the book's about.
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When you go back to that time of making the decision, what what was the best thing about working at the UN?
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What did you enjoy the most about it?
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The United Nations is, in my view, is the best idea humanity has ever had collectively.
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Now, we collectively, as one humanity, we haven't had that many ideas, so it's also perhaps in the first.
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But um you recall that it was really at a time when the world was in in tatters.
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It was really trust was broken.
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And historians call this period we live in or we lived in, shall we maybe say, the long peace.
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80 years, where the large powers of the world have not been in direct conflict with each other.
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That's very unusual across all of human history.
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That's the that's the achievement of the United Nations.
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The UN is I like Dark Hamaskjull's quote about the UN, uh he was the second Secretary General, and he said that the role of the UN is not to take humankind to heaven, but to save humanity from hell.
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And the UN has been really, really good at doing that.
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They get a lot of flack for being slow and bureaucratic, but think of peace and stability, or when we think of the environment.
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When I was a kid, there's a lot of talk about the ozone hole.
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You know, there's uh skin cancer, fear everywhere.
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Um, pictures of these cows in Australia that had to sort of wear sunscreen all day and because they would otherwise get fried.
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And the UN fixed that.
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Like that's probably the largest environmental achievement of the UN to date, um, the Montreal Protocol and closing the Ozan Hall.
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It's one of it's it's the only planetary boundary that's actually healing and improving.
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Um and I think we can do similar things through the UN for climate.
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If you look at the climate, and again, the Paris Agreement gets a lot of is under a lot of attack.
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But I think that attack is misdirected often against the UN, because the UN is doing what it's set up to do.
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In this case, we were set for four degrees warming by the end of the century, just ten years ago.
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We're now set at 2.7.
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Still way too much, still tens of millions of uh people's lives at risk, but not hundreds of millions of people's lives at risk.
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So that delta is the achievement of the UN.
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The best thing about the UN is its product is consensus.
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You know, consensus is hard to achieve among humans.
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Um and once the whole world agrees on something, that is really powerful.
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And I still remember the UN General Assembly decision to proclaim the UN decade on ecosystem restorations was uh in March 2019.
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And um you see that the General Assembly debates this idea and then comes up with the plan to halt and reverse the degradation of ecosystems worldwide.
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Nothing that's a pretty big statement.
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Of course, that then needs to be filled with action.
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But that that a General Assembly where you know Israel is there and Iran and Saudi Arabia and then the US and then there's Russia, and these moments are rare when everybody agrees on something.
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And in particular right now.
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So that's really powerful about the UN.
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What is of course not so powerful about the UN is that it's a super bureaucratic machinery.
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It's very, it can be very risk-averse and sclerotic in terms of speed.
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So in my ideal world, I would we would have a UN that is as professional, efficient, and well-resourced as a multi-billion dollar company like Salesforce with the mandate that they have.
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Um so yeah, I really believe that AI and technology could help UN and all of us deliver better on our land.
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What was the what were the conditions for you personally at that time period that allowed you to make that leap and that change?
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Because so many you you you said it yourself, you had a you had a job for life.
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And so many people get comfortable, get set, and go, do you know what?
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It's so lovely here.
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That's me done.
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But you didn't.
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You reinvented and you took what I'm sure some in your life might have said, What are you doing, Tim?
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That's a massive leap.
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That's a completely different lot of colleagues said, Well, so what was it about you that made you feel able, motivated, and ready to make that step?
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It was COVID.
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You know, this was uh during the beginning of COVID, and it was it was a time of great uncertainty.
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And then and you know the saying never waste a good crisis.
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Um when everything is about to change anyway, you can really make drastic changes.
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Um, and it it was also combined with the fact that my wife and I, we've been speaking of buying a little farm somewhere in the countryside, and we've been talking about that since we met each other, like almost 25 years ago.
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And uh it was finally possible with COVID relocate for a time out of Nairobi where we lived, go to Europe, stay there for more than a summer, and take the time to find our place, find our farm.
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So in in 2020, um, end of 2020, we we bought a farm in Denmark and are now restoring that to hopefully soil health and more biodiversity, more water retention capacity, all the things you're trying to do here as well, um on a much small, much smaller scale, though.
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And that's been um that's been a passion project, but it was that opportunity that came through a crisis.
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So I think that is really important to recognize that every crisis has opportunity in it.
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Have you always felt that way?
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Not in a crisis, no.
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It's sometimes very difficult to remember that in a crisis because when you're in a crisis and we're we're collectively in a crisis right now as humanity, it's very difficult to remember that because you're so focused on the short term and it's you tend to be fear guided.
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Fear is not a good long-term advisor, though.
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Um fear is really good at sort of short-term risk mitigation, but fear is not a good not a good long-term advisor.
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Fear leads to hoarding and greed and fear competition that is more than it should be so in um in a in a crisis, uh it takes a conscious effort to to remember wait a minute, this is happening for a reason, it's not the end of the world.
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Um what what can we learn?
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What can we do better?
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And what can we take out of this and go forward?
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And I think as humanity right now, things are sort of the plot is thickening, right?
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We have the rise of AI, great opportunity, but also immense risk.
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We have imminent ecosystem collapse at large scale, still, despite take and global restoration and conservation, we have climate crisis, we have growing inequality, which is at at historic even historically at very high levels.
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So all of that points to a transformation that is needed.
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I think a big part of that transformation is a new relationship with nature.
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We've forgotten who our family is, where our home is.
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You um it's a beautiful segue.
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You you open the book with a huge idea, with a first generation that actually has the tools, the knowledge, the money to rebuild nature as critical infrastructure.
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That that framing is beautiful.
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Can you talk a little bit around your realization of that and and how that informed the rest of the book?
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So write the book took me about two years to write because I mostly did it on evenings and and weekends.
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Um but um so it was it was at a time where the the rise of AI was um was already becoming apparent, but this generative that the generative AI wave, and then now the wave we're in at the agentic wave where you have autonomous AI agents taking decisions on your behalf, that was that was not yet uh a thing.
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So I think every every generation is special in the sense that every generation has to make decisions that are formative.
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Um generations live in less interesting and some in more interesting times.
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Um I think we live in very interesting times.
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And we are indeed the first generation that has all the tools and all the resources and all the money.
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I mean, let's not forget how much money there is in the world and how many things are being paid for right now with our taxpayer money that make things worse, and that we could redirect fossil fuel subsidies, for example, into things like ecosystem restoration that would rebuild our economies.
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So we have all the tools we need.
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What we lack is imagination, which is really a critical ingredient, and it's not really to do with technology.
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Um we lack the imagination, and I in the book I also speak about shifting baseline syndrome.
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And I use this example of 50 years of trophy fishing of the Key West in Florida, where there's a photo series of the Gulf Stream 2, this ship that sort of for 50 years took tourists out to fish.
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And um you compare this photo line, and in 1957, you have these huge sharks and giant groupers that are bigger than the people.
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And in the 2000s, 2007, you have 90% reduced catch size of the fish.
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You have a fraction of the species.
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Fish are really sort of that size suddenly, and you compare these photos side by side.
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But what is striking is that the people in the photo, they look equally happy.
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They don't know.
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But imagine that this would be happening on the same day.
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There was one one boat would come back from the charter tour with these huge fish and amazing catch, and the next boat would come in with hardly any fish.
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They would ask for their money back.
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They would say, Well, well, what's going on here?
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What's happening?
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Why aren't we enjoying that wealth, that abundance?
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And I think that imagination that we can get back to that abundance of nature and diversity of nature, we have to instill that in people.
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I love to see a Netflix series that uses generative AI to paint the picture of what these restored landscapes could look like.
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What is what is it that we have lost?
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I think that imagination is lacking because we can get it back.
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It's not a in some cases, it will take, of course, very long.
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You know, a giant redwood tree is 800 grows for 800 years, doesn't even take eight hours to cut it down.
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Um but in in other cases, nature responds amazingly quickly to that intention to restore and diversity and abundance bounce back amazingly quickly.
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So yeah, we're we're a special generation.
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Um at some point, I think I feel that there's really an a groundswell of that awareness.
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I mean, if you search for generation restoration, which is the hashtag of the UN decade, there's about 140,000 posts on Instagram.
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They're all like local projects, they're mostly young people, they're people interested in regenerative agriculture and farming.
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Um so there is something happening on that front.
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There's a there's a groundswell of of awareness.
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And I think this notion that we are part of nature and that we have to remember that is that is growing.
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One of the most powerful things in the book is you really exploring in detail that we are part of nature.
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Can you can you give people a view of where you think we lost that and how important it is to realize that relationship?
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I traced, I tried to find that out for myself because I realized that I did not really see nature as nature.
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I saw nature, especially after studying forestry at university.
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I walk around in a forest, it's like, oh, this is three volumetric meters of good oak timber could be turned into veneer.
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It's worth 2,000 euros.
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You walk around and you look at trees in that way, and you look at how to improve silviculture.
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That's what we're trained to do.
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And at some point I was asking myself, what is what happened to the boy who was walking through the forest and was inspired by the energy that was flowing through the system?
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I could I have this sort of the sense of feeling the energy that pulses through an ecosystem.
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Find that difficult, still difficult to explain, but I think I would have been a better forester as a 10-year-old boy than after graduating from forestry at university in terms of understanding what the ecosystem needs and how it works.
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So I was trying to find a way to reconnect with that and then combine the best of both worlds.
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When I traced back how I think collectively as humanity, we lost that connection.
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I think it's the philosophy of the Enlightenment.
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It goes back to the 16th, early 17th century, and especially uh René Descartes and his contemporaries who made this very clear distinction that only humans are divine.
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Everything else is a commodity that is put here for our convenience.
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Um, animals are soulless, machines that purely act on instinct.
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Um and that was hammered into our collective Western consciousness so deeply that it really framed how we set up economic structures, how we set up the rules of the economy.
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Nature is still seen as a commodity in in modern economics, which it it isn't.
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Um but you can trace that back to the so-called era of enlightenment.
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I think it's a misnomer that that era.
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Of course, it brought a lot of progress and and um especially on in political structures, but it it also really blinded us to this connection with nature.
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You think the you think you swapped imagination or measurement during your education?
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Do you think it's a failing of how we educate?
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I would say in in general, yes, it of course it depends.
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There are there are educations that are all about more imagination.
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Um, but especially in um in the natural sciences, we have a tendency to then only take scientific evidence as our guiding star.
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And I think there's there's of course a lot of merit to it because it's replicable.
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It's the only common language that we can speak as one humanity, because everybody can replicate those results.
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But you can actually also replicate other things in the same way, like the results of meditation.
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If you do it right and you do it often and long enough, everybody gets the same results after a while.
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So these are these are also scientific techniques of understanding and knowing that we can use, but that we've Forgotten about.
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So that lack of imagination is also to do with the lack of our intuition and being in tune with nature.
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And I mean I'm saying all this, of course, knowing that this is an ongoing learning journey for me and all of us.
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I'm not perfectly in tune with nature.
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And I discover everyday things on our farm and with the animals and with the wildlife.
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And where where I think, wow, this is um this is really, really so clever and so well done and designed that the best we can do sometimes is to watch and listen and observe nature and then react.
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Whereas we do it the the other way around at the moment mostly.
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We think we have all the answers.
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We design ecosystems so they serve our purposes.
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But I think we've come to the end of that road.
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We have to re-re consider.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:13.119
One of the um one of the interesting approaches you take in the book is you tell the story about New York Bay and the loss of three billion native oysters and not just the nature loss and the ecological loss, but the infrastructure that was lost to the environment there.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:17.359
Um can you help people understand that concept and and describe that realization?
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:41.839
So if you would have sailed to into New York about 400 years ago, 300 years ago, it would have been a completely different experience because there were 200,000 acres, about 80,000 hectares of oyster reefs all across um Upper Bay, Hudson River, the estuary.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:46.000
And you know, oysters filter water and very effectively.
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:50.160
So they would have filtered all that water about once a day.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:58.880
Oyster reefs are also the home to a whole array of other species, shoals of fish, um, even marine mammals.
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:04.400
There would have been an unimaginable abundance of wildlife in that whole area around New York.
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:07.359
They were, of course, also great protection against storm surges.
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:10.960
But what happened then is um they were all eaten.
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:15.200
The last commercial oyster bed closed in New York, I think, in 1927.
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:19.839
Before that, oysters were exported from New York to all over the world to Europe.
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:26.559
Um and the water got too dirty for the oysters to live because of raw sewage influx.
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:36.240
If you go today into New York and you ask a New Yorker in the streets, you know, this should actually be called the big oyster, not the big apple.
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:37.440
Do you know anything about that?
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:38.319
Do you know about oysters?
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:42.559
They would say, Well, I don't know, the oysters, what have we to do with them?
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:43.519
People don't know.
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:46.960
They've lost that imagination.
00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:57.839
And instead we have things like Superstorm Sandy and other extreme weather events that could have been mitigated by that critical natural infrastructure.
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:02.079
So I'm really pleased about things like the Billion Oysters Project.
00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:08.319
That's a that's a project that's trying to reverse that loss of all these oyster reefs.
00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:30.319
But we need to increase those efforts at orders of magnitude, which is why I think it's so important that we see nature partly as critical infrastructure for all of our societies and for national economies, because it's only if we have massive public works projects that we can get to the level of investment that we need.
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:32.799
Take peatlands in the UK, for example.
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:48.000
If you want to um re-wet a lot of the peatlands that were lost, you want to re-establish these huge wetlands, Somerset Downs, and all these very large, beautiful areas, Scottish peatlands.
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:57.359
That's a project that is probably not going to happen based on the voluntary carbon market or other small payments.
00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:00.400
They have to be massive public works projects.
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:07.440
I think we're still a bit away from that, but we are we are getting there.
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:08.640
Really interesting.
00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:17.039
So um, you're the first person I saw put words on paper about nature being categorized as critical infrastructure.
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:21.599
Um the first person I had vocalized, that was Rob Gardner at Rebalance Earth.
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:22.960
And we spoke about, shout out to Rob.
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:23.599
Hey Rob.
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:27.359
We spoke about um his podcast before before we started recording.
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:37.680
I think it's a really interesting challenge because we need that language, whether it's a public works program or whether it's unlocking institutional capital to come into these projects.
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:45.279
By using infrastructure, we give a commonality of language, a terminology, a revenue profile that make it accessible to people.
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:51.680
Yet we still see people push back and go, no, no, no, it's inappropriate to put a price on nature.
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:53.920
How do you respond to that challenge?
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:58.240
It's um it's an it that's a fascinating question.
00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:09.200
And there's no easy answer to that because when we started to put a price on nature, and you know, all the way back in 2008, there was this project called the Economics of Ecosystems and Biodiversity T that the UN started.
00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:13.200
And then there was a T for agriculture and a T for this and that.
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:16.640
Um I think that was part of when this started.
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:28.000
And then a few years later, the UN launched, and this is probably not known widely because it's actually super technical, but the UN has a statistics handbook.
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:30.960
900 pages, probably the most boring book in the world.
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:37.519
But it but it determines how governments measure what public wealth and national wealth is.
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:40.319
It's called the UN statistical handbook.
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:48.640
And in 2012, they introduced a concept called the system of environmental economic accounting, where for the first time you could measure natural capital.
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:51.440
Wasn't a thing before then for countries.
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:52.720
What year did that appear?
00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:53.440
2012.
00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:57.119
And then since then, more and more countries have adopted that.
00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:00.079
It's still a voluntary add-on to that statistical handbook.
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:07.759
But things like that that happen in the background are super important for that understanding of nature as an infrastructure.
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:24.160
But with that study of the economics of biodiversity, also, of course, came the bit of a backlash, especially from indigenous communities, indigenous peoples, who said we should not commodify nature even more by putting a price on it.
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:30.079
And I'm still somewhat in two minds about that because I think we have to do it.
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:31.519
That comes through in the book.
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:35.039
I think you can feel how uncomfortable you sit between those two ideas.
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:39.920
We have to do it because it is the language that the world speaks right now.
00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:41.119
It's money.
00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:42.720
Money, money, money.
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:46.400
And of course, you then have to express your ideas in that language.
00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:55.599
And to a certain degree, it makes sense because nature and the economics of biodiversity make a lot of sense, make a lot more sense than our current economic system.
00:28:55.759 --> 00:29:14.960
And I also love this idea of the bioeconomy that Brazil is pushing with the G20, where suddenly you the whole economic system is not no longer based on an extractive use of nature, but it's based on biodiversity and the abundance and diversity of our natural wealth.
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:16.880
I I like all that.
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:24.000
And yet there's a part of me that always feels when we talk about nature in monetary terms.
00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:42.799
I feel like somebody coming to me with a new study saying, you know, I calculated the value of your family, of your kids and of your wife, and they're they're worth millions to you because they'll save you, you know, they'll probably live longer, they save your insurance premium.
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:48.000
They and I would be like, yeah, that might be true, but what are you talking about?
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:51.519
This is irrelevant to me because this is my family.
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:56.960
You know, I would do anything for my family, and it's the same with nature.
00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:06.720
You we talk about nature in monetary terms, and at the same time, there's a much more profound connection that we have with nature and that we must have with nature.
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:08.480
But I think both can exist.
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:18.319
Of course, you you know, I also invest in the education of my kids, and I pay for insurance for my family because I do care about them, and these are all financial decisions.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.799
So I think we can do both, but nature is more than a line on our balance sheets.
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:24.240
Nature is our balance.
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:35.119
So we have to really understand that there's a deeper, more profound meaning to it, and then it's all right to speak about nature in monetary terms.
00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:47.920
It's um it's incredibly complex because um people who want to throw out the moral argument of um it's wrong to put a price on nature, nature's priceless.
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.079
We don't treat it as priceless, we treat it as worthless.
00:30:52.880 --> 00:31:09.039
And the way we need to communicate that in the language is to put a monetary value on it, and then if we get that right, if we recognize it's critical infrastructure, if we do have the imagination to imagine a restored world, then maybe we can say it's priceless.
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:11.440
Maybe we can respect it at that point.
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:20.480
But if we continue to fail to put a value on it, continue to treat it as an externality and move it away, we won't have the choice anymore because it'll all be gone.
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:22.240
I think that's right.
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:28.720
I think you have to have the balance about those two realities and they they can coexist.
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:38.960
And I I love, I mean, for example, what you do here is is amazing, and I'm uh really impressed with oxygen conservation's success so far.
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:55.519
I think you'll do amazingly well, and yet at the same time, part of your success will also be because nature is still declining, and of course, then it becomes more valuable because the ecosystem services of nature are more relevant than ever.
00:31:55.759 --> 00:32:00.799
So it is great for a company, but we need so much more for society as a whole.
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:07.680
We want nature to be abundant, diverse, and free as much as possible for people.
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:19.119
So I think this comes back to the public sector-private sector duality and why we need public-private partnerships for this, because we will only change this at scale.
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:25.599
And I, you know, I'd love for there to be a hundred oxygen conservations doing this all over the world and at much larger scale.
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:33.039
But even at that scale, it will not be enough without a massive public shift of subsidies.
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:44.799
Remember, we're outspending nature conservation and restoration about 30 times with harmful subsidies that are destroying nature and making the problem worse.
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:55.920
So it's like your house is on fire and you're trying to get a sort of bucket of water and get your neighbors together, and then the fire engine arrives and they spray gasoline on your house.
00:32:56.480 --> 00:33:02.240
Um, that's the current problem with fiscal policies and fiscal incentives.
00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:06.720
There has to be massive, massive reprogramming, which is a huge opportunity.
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:08.640
Never waste a good crisis.
00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:10.319
That is gonna be a theme.
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:11.599
That's gonna be a theme.
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:20.079
Um what you said about uh essentially the worse the climate gets, the worse nature gets, the better it is for my business.
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:21.359
I hate that.
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:26.640
I genuinely think that's probably the heaviest load I carry in terms of mentally about what we do.
00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:31.119
We did an event with the brilliant people at Foresight in the in the shard in London.
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:33.200
They've got um Richard and Rob there, fantastic.
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:34.559
They asked us to go speak with them.
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:46.480
Guy in the audience raised his hand and said, Well, this is this is all well and good, but when um uh when the climate gets worse, when weather patterns are destroying landscapes, all these assets you've bought will be worthless.
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:48.799
And I was like, I'm really sorry to break this to you.
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:57.039
It'll be worth a hell of a lot more because the ones that we have are more sustainable, are better managed, we'll keep more water in the environment, the soils will be more fertile.
00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:01.119
Actually, the worse everything else gets, the better our assets will be.
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:04.960
And literally, you could see him go, Yeah, you're right, you're right.
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:06.960
And and I don't want that to be the answer.
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:14.480
Um, what we're trying to do is it's kind of as you articulate, we want to create, we want to inspire imagination.
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:16.400
We want to show people what's possible.
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:24.239
That's why we have a podcast and we write and we publish and share it because we want to inspire the next generation, which I totally think are coming.
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:28.559
You spoke wonderfully at the start about all the challenges we're facing across the globe.
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:38.559
The thing that gives me optimism are the people like Penny who sat behind the camera and the amazing young people we have coming into the team who wouldn't have looked at the environment sector twice five years ago.
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:46.559
But now we are the coolest place in the UK you can work if you want to work on natural capital, on data, on tech, we're the place to be.
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:50.079
And the talent that's coming in now, I think they will save the world.
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:53.599
We just need to write big enough checks to allow them to do it.
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:54.880
I totally agree with that.
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:57.760
I mean, in Salesforce, we call them ecopreneurs.
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:00.000
And I mean, you're an ecopreneur as well, right?
00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:10.480
You make it your life's mission to solve these hard problems, and you take what all the amazing tools we have, including AI, and you make it a reality.
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:16.159
And that ecosystem of ecopreneurs is thriving worldwide.
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:18.159
We work with uh World Economic Forum.
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:19.440
There's a place called Uplink.
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:25.920
They have a network where they've now about 50,000 ecopreneurs are collected there.
00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:33.679
And the the WEF is very good at introducing people to opportunities and making sure they have the right technology.
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:43.519
So yeah, we I this is a big part of why I also love the the job at Salesforce, because that's there's a lot of funding that goes also into ecopreneurs.
00:35:43.679 --> 00:36:07.679
And um, in our hundred million tree effort, we we're now making a bit of a shift from mostly grants to NGOs, which were all successful and all good, but towards seeding a little bit more this for-profit nature restoration market, so that we can make what you do here more mainstream and make it more the norm.
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:15.840
Because I agree with you that um I think over time people will realize that this is not a luxury to do things this way.
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:32.320
It's actually the only way we can afford to keep a healthy agriculture, food production, agri-food system, and overall a healthy economy is this way of treating nature with more respect and a very different mindset.
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:34.800
You've been at Salesforce five years now?
00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:35.440
Four.
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:36.000
Four.
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:39.119
How has the business changed in those four years?
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:41.679
And how have you changed as a result of that?
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:44.800
Everything is now dominated by the rise of AI.
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:49.280
It's such a fast-paced and exciting time.
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:54.800
And when I joined four years ago, it wasn't really that was not really the main uh driver.
00:36:55.119 --> 00:37:07.920
Salesforce been using AI for over 10 years, and a lot of the lot of the predictive AI is actually fairly um, it's not very energy intensive, not very resource intensive.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:21.760
But the latest large language models and generative AI use a lot of computing power, and that's of course also where some of the environmental impacts from AI are negative on energy and on water.
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:28.639
How I've changed, I think I've I understand the private sector now much better.
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:44.559
I also understand much better how ideally there should be private public partnerships, how the private sector can be catalyzed into collective action, because there's enormous peer pressure and group pressure in the private sector.
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:50.079
You always, people, big companies in particular, always look around what are our peers doing?
00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:53.039
What is what is happening, and what are the trends?
00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:56.239
Few large companies want to be the first.
00:37:56.480 --> 00:37:59.199
Nobody wants to be the last of doing something.
00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:07.679
So if you can be among the first to set a new trend, and Salesforce is a place like that, you can pull a lot of companies with you.
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:19.119
So we're trying to do that with early adoption of TNFD and helping them to develop this leap framework with task force and nature-related financial disclosures.
00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:28.880
We're trying to do that with a voluntary carbon market, with things like the Symbiosis Coalition that we launched in 2024 with Meta, Microsoft, and Google.
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:39.360
And um, we've made a 20 million ton market signal that we will offtake 20 million tons of high-quality nature-based removals.
00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:42.000
Um give people an idea on scale with that.
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:47.519
So we have the biggest portfolio of voluntary carbon credits in the UK at 2 million tons.
00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:50.320
And you've collectively signaled 20 million.
00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:59.039
So that is an astonishing number and has the sort of ability, you know, some of the names there, including yourselves, they are creating the market through those types of signal.
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.440
And I think that's that's very important.
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:10.800
It's of course also a little bit too small, that pool of companies, and technology companies are a little bit special because our profit margins are so large.
00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:14.400
And there's basically there is the capital to do this at scale.
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:21.440
But I think every large company, every Fortune 500 company could do more, including engaging in the voluntary carbon market.
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:26.400
I I'm quite bullish on the voluntary carbon market again.
00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:28.480
Now it's gone up and down.
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:33.199
Um because of the laws of physics.
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:40.079
I'm I feel like the guy in the big short, I forget his name, but you know, he who keeps saying this, this is this can't work.
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:42.559
The math doesn't compute, right?
00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:51.440
So um, if you look at the physics of climate change, the carbon removal industry has to become one of the most important industries of the centuries.
00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:52.719
Just a necessity.
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:58.719
And markets are the most effective way of connecting and channeling capital.
00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:02.400
That's that's all the market or the basic function of a market.
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:16.719
So you put those things together, and there has to be a market, whether it's a voluntary market or compliance markets, but there has to be a market as part of climate action that channels money to where there's good projects and where there's good action.
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:18.480
So that is a necessity.
00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:19.679
It has to happen.
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:22.239
What makes a good project?
00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:25.440
That's a okay.
00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:26.800
How how long do I have for the answer?
00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:30.239
As long as you're like, I've got an answer too, but you can go first.
00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:33.039
What makes a good project?
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:41.199
The the short answer would be I know it when I see it, which is of course not very helpful, but um but let me explain that a little bit.
00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:54.719
When you see that there's improvements in biodiversity, you see that there's improvements in soil organic carbon, you see there's improvements in livelihoods of the people in and around the project, it's a great project.
00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:58.719
I so you can make it endlessly complicated.
00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:02.800
You can actually it and it's starting to become endlessly complicated.
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:08.800
There are now rating agencies that pre-rate before we even do our due diligence on carbon projects.
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:13.679
We had Tommy Ricketts, the founder of B Zero, on the podcast last week.
00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:14.000
Yeah.
00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:28.480
And I think the role they will play in creating a market is fundamental because lots of people don't have or won't want to have the finances, the technical expertise to make an objective assessment there.
00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:30.960
Um so I think they're so, so important.
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:34.719
He his podcast hasn't been released yet, but he was, oh, I suppose it will be by the time this goes out.
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:35.920
He was astonishing.
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:39.280
Um I I love your line, know it when you see it.
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:43.039
And I hadn't realized that's effectively what I've been telling people.
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:47.039
So whenever anyone asks about our projects, I say, come and see it.
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:53.519
And that that is the only answer because yes, we can talk about the verification and the monitoring.
00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:55.440
And, you know, we can do tons on AI.
00:41:55.519 --> 00:42:09.599
We we have got a proprietary method of individual tree-level visualization and scanning to measure carbon now, which um we were approached by one of the leading strategy consultants in the world that said, you have the best tech to do this on the planet.
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:12.159
But ultimately, come and see it.
00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:18.320
Come and see it, interact with it, understand what's happening on the ground, see the positive environmental and social impact.
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:20.800
And then, so we've been really fortunate.
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:25.760
We've broke the world record for the highest price received for woodland carbon at 125 a ton.
00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:27.920
And I don't think I've mentioned this one to you yet.
00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:40.480
We've just broke the world record for peatland at£100 a ton for the same principles, because every aspect of it is authentic and honest and optimized to do the right thing for people, wildlife and the environment.
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:42.880
Um, but you only know it if you see it.
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:44.159
That that's wonderful.
00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:51.840
And I I think it's important to remember that at least in the voluntary carbon market, that it is voluntary.
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:57.199
So, what we also as large companies, what we want to invest in are also good stories.
00:42:57.360 --> 00:42:59.360
And we don't want negative headlines.
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:07.920
If I go to our chief finance officer and I say, well, this is going to cost X million and all we get are negative headlines, they're gonna say, What?
00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:09.920
That doesn't make any sense.
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:19.519
Um, so we want good stories, we want stories that are powerful, that are of course accurate, that are true, that we that can build trust in the voluntary carbon market.
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:31.199
I think over time, though, the the V will drop from the VCM more and more because of that physical necessity that we have to build carbon markets at at scale.
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:34.000
And compliance markets are already much, much larger.
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:42.400
You know, the ET, the European trading scheme is already many orders of magnitude larger than the voluntary carbon market.
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:49.679
But where the VCM can play a really important role is in the research and development of exactly that.
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:50.800
What is a good project?
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:51.519
How does it work?
00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:52.800
How can it be scaled?
00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:54.719
What are the technologies that work?
00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:59.679
And Salesforce is an investor in Silvera, which is one of the other rating agencies, Calyx.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:00.880
Global is one.
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:12.559
We we work with with them with all of them to pre-rate our projects, but often it is that sort of we want to go and see the projects and want to really understand what is happening.
00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:20.320
I had the chance to visit Bombak in November when I was at COP30 for the climate summit in Belang in Brazil.
00:44:21.119 --> 00:44:23.920
And I was so impressed with what they're doing.
00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:41.920
So I to everybody out there who's a project developer and who has this drive to solve this defining challenge of our time in terms of climate change and biodiversity loss, um, I have a huge respect for everybody who does the work you do, the work that project developers all over the world do.
00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:43.519
Because it's not easy.
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:49.679
It's really a good project is not easy and it's um there's no blueprint.
00:44:49.760 --> 00:44:53.679
Like there's no every project is is in some ways different.
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:55.679
You can, of course, learn over time.
00:44:56.079 --> 00:44:58.639
But this is not yet a fully established industry.
00:44:58.719 --> 00:44:59.840
But we're we're getting there.
00:44:59.920 --> 00:45:13.599
And I hope also we'll have a sort of a nature industry association at some point globally that can lobby more for fiscal policy reform and those kinds of large public works projects that invest in nature at scale.
00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:20.159
Why I'm fascinated, and I and I want to borrow some of your positivity and optimism here.
00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:28.239
Why are you so I'm not sure if you're hopeful or confident, but which of those are you about the public-private partnership?
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:32.400
What gives you the hope or the confidence that they'll present?
00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:37.360
Well, they're actually talked about a lot.
00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:40.480
I'm not the only person who's talking about that, but there are very few that actually work.
00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:41.440
So that's my problem.
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:42.159
That's your problem.
00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:42.639
Yeah, I think.
00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:46.559
I've spent a lot of time in UK government and I just don't believe they're gonna do anything.
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:51.280
And especially when you when we look at things like concessional finance.
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:54.400
Everybody talks about concessional finance for these great projects.
00:45:54.559 --> 00:45:59.679
And but if you dig a little bit deeper, there's there's very of that actually existing.
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:07.280
It's like the gold dust um somewhere that that in some cases makes projects feasible.
00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:12.079
But we would need massive multi-billion dollar de-risking facilities.
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:19.119
We need massive early start, low or no interest capital for feasibility studies for projects.
00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:29.519
So I would love philanthropists to step in here more, family offices, big investors who can say, yeah, I'm I'm gonna, sure, if I get my money back, that's great.
00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:30.800
I don't need the interest.
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:34.559
Um, if I lose the money, then I've learned a lesson.
00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:38.559
Where are the philanthropists that that think like that?
00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:40.400
And and family offices.
00:46:40.639 --> 00:46:48.000
More and more family offices and unfortunately also multilateral development banks, they operate like commercial banks.
00:46:48.159 --> 00:46:52.559
They lend money, they expect very high rate of return.
00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:54.960
And I think that's not their role.
00:46:55.039 --> 00:46:59.199
At this point, we needed more daring, more bold role.
00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:08.719
But to come back to your point, why I'm confident, I think I learned that from Christiana Figueres and her global optimism.
00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:13.039
There's a saying by the economist Paul Romer, and I talk about that in the book.
00:47:13.119 --> 00:47:22.159
Um, that optimism is not something that happens to you based on data or what you know what you observe in the world.
00:47:22.239 --> 00:47:30.400
It's a mindset, not unconditional optimism, like a child waiting for presence, but conditional optimism.
00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:48.559
More like a child wanting to build a tree house and you know, walk running around and getting all their relatives and friends and parents to chip in and say, what if we get this and a few right tools, and suddenly something amazing happens because you believe that it happened?
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:52.960
I think we're now at this critical mass where there's enough amazing people.
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:55.360
You just spoke about the amazing talent you can attract.
00:47:55.519 --> 00:48:04.000
There's thousands of people now, tens of thousands, that are putting their minds to solve this issue.
00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:05.679
So I think it will be solved.
00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:08.320
I think we will have public-private partnerships.
00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:11.840
Have you um either heard of or met David Hill?
00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:18.880
He um he's essentially the the godfather or grandfather, sorry to aid you, uh, of BNG in this country.
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:20.880
So he's he's the reason it exists.
00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:29.599
He went across the US and studied their water mitigation markets, brought back the principles, and he he is the the father of BNG in the UK.
00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:33.440
And um he has a fact, and and he double-checked it after his podcast.
00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:39.760
There are more people employed in the natural capital space than there are in the steel industry in the US now.
00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:40.880
There you go.
00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:51.840
Which is so you can the the same is actually true for solar and wind on the energy side, is by far a larger share of the job market that is now in renewables than in um in fossil fuels.
00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:54.320
I I don't think the government are coming.
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:56.960
I don't think the governments are coming to help.
00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:00.079
I think it will be a private sector solved problem.
00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:05.840
But I hadn't realized this until you advocated so strongly for that public-private partnership.
00:49:06.559 --> 00:49:12.639
I think the role that used to be played by government will in the future be played by the AI companies.
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:16.559
I think they will be the ones that provide that level of funding.
00:49:16.719 --> 00:49:27.199
So um I I've written a few pieces that will will come out at some point about how the more digitally obsessed we become, the more reliant we are on nature.
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:38.239
Each of these massive data centers, they're called clouds, but they live in physical spaces that require cooling and carbon footprints and energy and all these real physical things.
00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:56.800
So, in a model whereby Anthropic, OpenAI, Microsoft, you guys, all the hyperscalers are going to be generating hundreds of billions of pounds of cash year on year with very little opportunity to deploy those into anything that diversifies what they do.
00:49:56.960 --> 00:50:00.079
So they could invest in more microchips or more data centers.
00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:15.920
But to invest in real assets at the scale at which they would need to to offer any form of diversification against the actual risks they face, climate, nature, space, their human talent and resource base, they're going to be the ones that will provide the funding to do that.
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:26.320
And they won't need the return on investment because, uh, and I hadn't thought about this until you articulated it, but the balancing effect is they will be swapping the return for the risk management that they need.
00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:28.400
It's an interesting hypothesis.
00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:31.599
First of all, I would not write off government just yet.
00:50:31.760 --> 00:50:35.920
I mean, we we see right now how much money there suddenly is when there's a conflict.
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:41.440
Um, we see how much money there is when there was a crisis like like COVID.
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:45.199
Don't forget that governments actually also make money.
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:46.159
They print money.
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:49.519
This is this is the one of the nice things about government.
00:50:49.679 --> 00:50:52.800
Of course, it has to be in balance so you don't fuel inflation.
00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:59.760
But governments can decide to um to borrow against that future return on impact.
00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:16.960
And I think at it at some point, if Germany or then maybe even Euro, Europe as a whole decides to issue euro bonds, um they can they can raise massive amounts of capital that are still um much, much larger than any profits of the air companies.
00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:20.400
Which country do you think is most likely to be the one that goes first?
00:51:20.639 --> 00:51:28.320
Who would be the one that said, you know what, we are gonna solve this, we are gonna make a big national level infrastructure investment in nature?
00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:30.880
Um there is a country that's already doing it.
00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:32.639
It's a large country, it's Brazil.
00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:48.719
Um if you look at what they do in terms of restructuring their portfolio of development bank lending, nature basically has unlimited um capital access at fairly low rates from BNDS from the Brazilian Development Bank.
00:51:48.960 --> 00:52:04.239
Um of course they also have existing infrastructure and oil and gas and others, but they are making that shift to the bioeconomy already, which is why I'm so keen to sort of support that bioeconomy narrative of Brazil in the G20.
00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:22.719
Because consider that if you think of subsidies that are going into fossil fuels or that are going into agriculture as usual, chemical agriculture, it's depending how you count it, it's sort of between five and seven trillion dollars per year, trillion.
00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:31.760
And there's no AI company that's sort of will sort of make that kind of not yet cash and turnaround.
00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:35.119
Somewhere Elon's going, watch this piece.
00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:52.239
There was a not that podcasts existed at the time, but if they had, we'd have been sat here having this conversation about railroad investment and then road investment, and we'd have been asking the philanthropists from the previous industrial revolution to be paying for stuff.
00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:52.559
Yeah.
00:52:52.719 --> 00:53:00.639
I think I'm just projecting and thinking, I I I think the philanthropists have of of certainly in the UK context in which I'm talking to, thank you.
00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:05.360
They've done the heavy lifting, they've funded the Wildlife Trust and the Rivers Trust and the National Trusts.
00:53:05.440 --> 00:53:05.760
Yeah.
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:06.960
They've done enough.
00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:13.119
I think for me, it's time that industry stepped up and and wrote its checks that it needs to, and businesses did.
00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:15.679
And I just I'm 42 years old.
00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:21.039
I've waited a lot of years for the government to give a damn about the environment, and each one's just not.
00:53:21.440 --> 00:53:27.360
And um, that's why my view is we'll try and push through quicker because otherwise.
00:53:27.679 --> 00:53:28.559
And I hope I'm wrong.
00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:46.320
I hope, I hope they do announce a big I think once the government sees that what you do and what others that are similar like-minded are doing, and that that is generating more profit, more livelihoods, better outcomes for local communities, for the environment, the government will shift and then they will support that.
00:53:46.480 --> 00:53:52.159
It's at the moment also it's a gap and it's a vacuum of lobbying as well.
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:57.519
Remember that there's very powerful vested interests that are lobbying that have vast amounts of money.
00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:08.239
Fossil fuel industry spending upwards of$200 million a year globally just on lobbying specific politicians and specific legislations.
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:13.519
That's there has to be a counterweight to that, that does that lobbying.
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:24.320
Um, and I think it's important we have we're more organized as the especially the nature restoration space in that sense that we can really lobby more effectively.
00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:27.920
Because I think we have we have science on our side.
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:30.000
There is a right and wrong side of history here.
00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:31.360
We're on the right side.
00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:33.840
We have the young people on our side.
00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:38.559
So, I mean, all of that does count in politics with with decision making in government.
00:54:38.719 --> 00:54:44.719
So, I mean, again, let's not write off governments because they do have an important role to play.
00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:47.679
They're just not playing it at the moment, but they they will eventually.
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:48.880
I do agree.
00:54:49.119 --> 00:54:57.920
Um, there's a guy called Benedict McDonald, who runs a company called Restore, who are who are at the leading edge of um the ecological side of restoration.
00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:00.480
He's a beautiful author too.
00:55:00.639 --> 00:55:03.599
Uh, he advocates for the exact same thing that you just articulated.
00:55:03.679 --> 00:55:19.440
He's like, um, he he is in awe in the worst possible way with the lobbying power of the NFU and farmers, and he's just constantly demanding the sector come together from a natural capital perspective and try and organise and communicate in the same way.
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:34.800
We actually had Tom Bradshaw, the president of the NFU, on the podcast, an incredibly impressive man, an incredibly uh educated and eloquent macroeconomist in terms of how he thought about the flows in and out of the country of capital.
00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:36.800
Um, and they are seriously organized.
00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:47.360
One of the brave things I think you did in your book was really call out how agriculture and and farmers are held in a completely unique perspective from other professionals.
00:55:47.599 --> 00:55:51.280
Um, did you think twice about including that perspective in the book?
00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:52.719
I I did.
00:55:52.800 --> 00:55:57.440
I also have to say that since we bought a farm, um you've decided farmers are right.
00:55:57.760 --> 00:56:01.679
My my respect for anybody who's a farmer has grown by leaps and bounds.
00:56:01.840 --> 00:56:14.159
This is a really it's not only very hard physically, it's very demanding, but you have to be, you have to know so much about climate, the weather, tax regulations, botany, chemistry.
00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:17.679
It's it it's farmers are amazing.
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:23.039
Accounting, economic work, documentation, regulation, accounting.
00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:24.960
Huge respect for everybody who's a farmer.
00:56:25.039 --> 00:56:31.199
I think they should be a revered profession, just like teachers and you know, professions that really shape our society.
00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:33.920
And that's of course at the moment not the case.
00:56:34.079 --> 00:56:35.840
They're between a rock and a hard place.
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:58.239
Most farmers want to do better by the environment, they want to do um the right thing, but they're just caught in this um in this economic conundrum where they have to have to rely so much on external pesticides and inputs and um and fertilizers that eat up all their profits.
00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:04.000
So I think getting out of that will take an initial infusion of cash.
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:12.239
And on our farm, it's you know, we I subsidize the farm with my day job, but not everybody can do that.
00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:24.960
So that is again an important role where we have to the$40 billion that Europe spends per year on the common agricultural policy, or it's even more now, reprogram that slightly.
00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:25.679
And it's happening.
00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:31.760
You know, I'm again coming back to my optimistic view of that governments will eventually have to do the right thing.
00:57:32.079 --> 00:57:37.840
We can reprogram part of that so it can restructure, it can restructure agriculture.
00:57:38.480 --> 00:57:39.199
Really interesting.
00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:48.000
You you tell a story about um a neighbor's use of pesticides on on their land and the potential knock-on effects of next door.
00:57:48.239 --> 00:57:51.119
Um we we said that across across the country.
00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:53.679
And um Do you think that's an education issue?
00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:57.119
Do you think it's a an awareness issue, a social issue?
00:57:57.280 --> 00:58:02.639
Why do you think we still have those people who don't consider the knock-on effect of those activities?
00:58:04.800 --> 00:58:05.519
It's a good question.
00:58:05.679 --> 00:58:17.360
In our case, it was really obvious because the field where the those there were potatoes last year, this year, we're we're not sure yet what they're gonna have, but it's right where our borehole is, where our drinking water comes from.
00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:24.000
So we have a really clear um interest in seeing what is happening with that field.
00:58:24.079 --> 00:58:30.480
And um, so that makes it really drastically visible for us, but the same exists for everybody.
00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:41.599
Pesticide runoff is uh threatening drinking water in a lot of and nitrate and other runoff in a lot of countries, including in the UK.
00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:50.159
So think about we we need to think about more where does our food come from, where does our water come from, what decides its quality?
00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:53.840
It's part of that ecological literacy that I call for in the book.
00:58:53.920 --> 00:59:03.440
I don't have an easy answer how to change that, but I think what I've learned about farmers is that the most powerful way to spread an idea is to show that it works.
00:59:03.599 --> 00:59:16.159
And once you show that it works, farmers will do, even if it sounds crazy or it's uh it's a novel idea, they will do it if they see it worse, if they see it it it works.
00:59:16.719 --> 00:59:21.519
It's why um we have a lot of open days community events.
00:59:22.159 --> 00:59:25.599
I I often get asked, what would you tell the neighboring farmer to do?
00:59:25.840 --> 00:59:26.960
My answer is nothing.
00:59:27.360 --> 00:59:28.400
It's their land.
00:59:28.559 --> 00:59:31.599
You know, what I will say is if you're interested, come and take a look.
00:59:31.679 --> 00:59:32.880
You're very welcome.
00:59:33.039 --> 00:59:40.719
I think farmers are uh from the conversations we've had, they're fed up of being patronized, lectured, and lied to.
00:59:40.880 --> 00:59:47.039
That was one thing I agreed with Tom that farmers have spent decades being promised X and it never appearing.
00:59:47.199 --> 00:59:49.679
But there's no wonder that they're told to change everything.
00:59:49.760 --> 00:59:51.360
As soon as they retool, they change.
00:59:51.440 --> 00:59:54.320
And it's not like a line of code, you can't rewrite it in seconds.
00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:58.400
You need seasons and years and sometimes generations to change things on a farm.
00:59:58.480 --> 00:59:58.639
Yeah.
00:59:58.719 --> 01:00:02.320
I agree with you, it's an incredibly difficult, challenging profession.
01:00:02.559 --> 01:00:14.960
I I think I think in the UK, the food security angle is overplayed and used as a reason to make sure we don't change some of the subsidy practices we have, uh, as much although we have starting to see some of those come into fruition now.
01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:18.159
Um, nature markets do offer something exciting, though.
01:00:18.320 --> 01:00:27.920
I I think BNG especially is something that for the first time does offer land-owning farmers and families a route to diversify in a way that can provide an economic return.
01:00:28.159 --> 01:00:28.800
Yeah.
01:00:29.119 --> 01:00:38.639
Yeah, I think nature markets and um also the carbon markets are are a promising route to diversify farm income.
01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:47.920
I think that the the carbon markets were of course trying to do what we can at Salesforce to stimulate that market further.
01:00:48.400 --> 01:00:59.360
It is, um, I think it it will grow, but ideally, I would I don't want to have a carbon credit here and a nature credit there and a water credit there.
01:00:59.519 --> 01:01:12.239
Um, I would like to have one good outcome environmental certificate that does all of the above because a good project and a good nature-based carbon project does all of that.
01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:15.039
Of course, we we also invest in technology projects.
01:01:15.199 --> 01:01:22.800
Salesforce also has made a$100 million carbon dioxide removal commitment with the First Movers Coalition.
01:01:22.880 --> 01:01:30.880
So we also invest in enhanced rock weathering and even direct air capture, all those things that are on the technology side.
01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:41.760
What sometimes upsets me in the in the VCM is this confrontation between the technologists and especially the techno-optimists and the and the nature circles.
01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:46.719
There is there's too much infighting in our in our circle.
01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:55.039
I think that debate between technology carbon credits and nature carbon credits is definitely overplayed.
01:01:55.360 --> 01:02:01.920
We need, of course, durable solutions, but we need a portfolio of solutions that work right now and that includes nature.
01:02:02.079 --> 01:02:05.920
We need the massive co-benefits of nature carbon projects.
01:02:06.239 --> 01:02:15.360
We need ecosystem restoration at massive scale, which will be durable, and we also need more investments in technology.
01:02:15.519 --> 01:02:21.119
So to me, it's it's an either, it's not an either-or, it's an uh and to all of the above.
01:02:21.199 --> 01:02:24.000
And and it's about a portfolio of approaches.
01:02:24.159 --> 01:02:25.440
That's how we approach the VCM.
01:02:25.599 --> 01:02:26.239
I absolutely agree.
01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:38.000
So um I I don't think we can solve for the climate without some form of technological solution or to some scrubbing technology that does mechanically extract carbon from the atmosphere.
01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:48.559
Well, I I love the stuff climb works and people are doing, but even even their portfolio is now pairing the technological advancements with a nature product as well, sit alongside of it.
01:02:48.719 --> 01:02:56.719
Because once we do fix that technology, I would still like a planet to live on that we can enjoy in the nature parts of what's there.
01:02:57.039 --> 01:03:00.960
When you think about the nature side of things, so you mentioned water and biodiversity.
01:03:01.119 --> 01:03:06.239
What are some of the emergent areas that you think we might see us go to next in terms of those markets?
01:03:09.679 --> 01:03:14.800
I think the voluntary market is small, as I already said.
01:03:14.880 --> 01:03:18.159
It's also a little bit fatigued on the company and buyer side.
01:03:18.239 --> 01:03:24.159
I sometimes ask myself the questions, where is everybody when I'm when we're on panels or I mentioned symbiosis?
01:03:24.719 --> 01:03:25.440
Always the same faces.
01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:28.159
It's always the same faces, very limited number of companies.
01:03:28.239 --> 01:03:29.760
So where where is everybody?
01:03:29.920 --> 01:03:39.519
There's a bit of fatigue um in investing because there's because the market tends to be complicated and it used to be intransparent.
01:03:39.679 --> 01:03:40.639
That has all improved.
01:03:40.880 --> 01:03:50.480
You said earlier it should be as easy as sort of ordering something online, and you get a carbon credit that you know is is of high quality.
01:03:50.639 --> 01:03:53.280
Um, and if it isn't, you can give it back.
01:03:53.440 --> 01:03:59.599
Um, so that that complexity we solved for for the carbon market.
01:04:00.159 --> 01:04:08.159
Now I see there's nature credits, there's water credits, but to me, that's a little bit as a corporate buyer.
01:04:08.320 --> 01:04:24.719
That is um that's a little bit hard to explain to our chief finance officer who bought into the carbon credits because it is part of our overall climate um action plan and climate transition plan.
01:04:24.960 --> 01:04:35.840
But um making that same argument again for different credits for almost the same thing, if it's if you look at the projects that produce them is uh is almost impossible.
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:42.800
So I think it's really important to merge and combine those into multiple outcome credits.
01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:56.400
The the c the compliance markets might take a different turn again, because governments might decide we want nature, water, and carbon in one bundled credit.
01:04:56.559 --> 01:04:58.559
I think that would be a great way forward.
01:04:58.719 --> 01:05:05.840
I don't think that will come from necessarily from corporate buyers, though, because we we still have whiplash from the carbon market.
01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:11.039
Now that the carbon market is much more transparent, it's much better, it's much improved.
01:05:12.079 --> 01:05:22.159
We we first have to get lots more companies into the VCM before I think we can branch out into nature and water.
01:05:22.559 --> 01:05:25.920
Is there anything the developers like us can do to help in that process?
01:05:28.239 --> 01:05:38.320
I think the good start is to is to demonstrate well what the co-benefits are through storytelling, through measurements, through biodiversity surveys.
01:05:38.480 --> 01:05:47.360
Um there's of course amazing advances also with with biodiversity monitoring, with e DNA, with bioacoustics, with AI driven.
01:05:47.519 --> 01:05:52.400
I I even heard about we don't have one on our farm yet because I think they're also quite expensive still.
01:05:52.559 --> 01:05:59.760
But there's uh soil biodiversity acoustic monitoring, where you basically have AI help you with.
01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:08.639
Interpreting the changes in soil acoustics based on this on soil biodiversity, which is is is is amazing.
01:06:08.719 --> 01:06:11.039
So you have I've heard the factory stuff.
01:06:11.119 --> 01:06:15.440
So the smell like being able to AI smell the soil to get organic content in it.
01:06:15.519 --> 01:06:15.679
Yeah.
01:06:15.920 --> 01:06:16.400
That's interesting.
01:06:16.880 --> 01:06:18.079
It is interesting.
01:06:18.400 --> 01:06:31.280
And um I think the the other thing that project developers can do, and you're already doing that, is to just bring down the costs of development and monitoring, but also project design.
01:06:31.840 --> 01:06:35.119
AI can can potentially help there.
01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:38.559
We have a project with um conservation organization called RAIR.
01:06:38.960 --> 01:06:43.840
And in Colombia, they've designed a they call it Argentiera.
01:06:43.920 --> 01:07:04.159
It's then they've designed an AI agent that works through WhatsApp with thousands of farmers, gives them updated information about what of about behavior change nudges, and it's like a source of information for all the smallholder farmers that are in a certain area, how to collectively restore and manage their land.
01:07:04.320 --> 01:07:21.920
If you think about smallholder farming areas where it's not one large land holding, but it's hundreds of thousands of farmers, a lot of the transaction costs for a project would go into those discussions, keeping everybody informed all the time, getting feedback from everybody, processing it in real time.
01:07:22.239 --> 01:07:23.760
AI is great at that.
01:07:23.920 --> 01:07:26.559
You can do that at a fraction of the cost.
01:07:27.360 --> 01:07:33.360
I think that that's one of the most exciting things that it just speeds up the force multiplier.
01:07:33.519 --> 01:07:36.719
You allow you to engage much faster at a lower price point.
01:07:37.039 --> 01:07:40.960
AI's been a theme that's kind of run through lots of our conversation today.
01:07:41.760 --> 01:07:46.960
On the day-to-day parts of what you do, how has that changed as a result of AI being in the business?
01:07:48.480 --> 01:07:51.199
Well, I use AI a lot more than I did a few years ago.
01:07:51.360 --> 01:07:54.400
We run a lot of our internal processes now.
01:07:54.559 --> 01:08:05.280
Um Slack is our tool of choice, and we have SlackBot is now basically my employee um number one.
01:08:05.360 --> 01:08:08.159
I don't know, was chief of staff or what you want to call it, but Slackbot.
01:08:08.480 --> 01:08:12.880
What um so so with that, I have a sort of mechanism of measuring that.
01:08:13.039 --> 01:08:24.399
If you had to pay employee number one, so you could have a person or you but you would lose your Slack employee number one, what's the value person you would need to hire to lose that AI employee right now?
01:08:24.640 --> 01:08:29.199
Oh, I would I would need to hire a lot of people because it it has very different skill sets.
01:08:29.359 --> 01:08:37.680
I ask Slackbot before I have a meeting, what are our last interactions with this customer or this stakeholder or this NGO?
01:08:37.840 --> 01:08:42.880
And what are their what are their pain points that we know of?
01:08:42.960 --> 01:08:44.159
How can we help them?
01:08:44.399 --> 01:08:51.760
Um then I sometimes ask it to do talking points for me, or I ask it to look into event organization.
01:08:51.920 --> 01:08:54.319
I mean, these are all different skill sets.
01:08:54.399 --> 01:08:54.479
Yeah.
01:08:54.640 --> 01:08:56.560
And Slackbot does does all of that.
01:08:56.880 --> 01:09:05.359
Have you had a um you had one of those moments where you're like, oh my god, and you can see the sheer scale and the future of what AI could bring?
01:09:05.680 --> 01:09:12.079
I'm I'm I'm I've had a few of those, and I'm having them uh repeatedly again.
01:09:12.319 --> 01:09:21.840
One of them was recently when, and now there's a music feature on Gemini, but um that you could actually generate songs um is a relatively new thing.
01:09:22.000 --> 01:09:30.640
We go on Spotify now, and all a lot of songs from 2026, 25 are AI generated or with support of AI, which I don't think is great, by the way.
01:09:30.720 --> 01:09:36.880
I think there's you know a role for human human um music.
01:09:37.039 --> 01:09:38.079
It should be labeled.
01:09:38.239 --> 01:09:44.479
I think you should, as a consumer, you should be able to know is this AI or is this sort of mostly human generated?
01:09:44.720 --> 01:09:56.880
Of course, but I had this aha moment when this was just a few months ago, when um at the time I did not know Sono.com is the DJ sound generating app.
01:09:56.960 --> 01:10:05.439
But my brother is a part-time DJ, and he in five minutes he just said, Well, you're going to the Salesforce team meeting of your sustainability team.
01:10:06.000 --> 01:10:07.520
Let's write a song about that.
01:10:07.680 --> 01:10:14.159
So we uploaded our stakeholder impact report, and um he said, you know, what do world beat?
01:10:14.319 --> 01:10:21.600
And and in in a few minutes, I had a song about our sustainability team and how we measured our targets.
01:10:21.760 --> 01:10:24.399
It was super funny, and we played it at the retreat.
01:10:24.720 --> 01:10:27.119
But now that's you can do that on Gemini.
01:10:27.279 --> 01:10:31.199
Now every but I was like, wow, this is this is amazing.
01:10:31.359 --> 01:10:36.880
And I'm having these wow, this is amazing kind of moments, uh, quite often with AI.
01:10:37.119 --> 01:10:44.000
I um I we've been so my PhD's big data systems and environmental stuff.
01:10:44.239 --> 01:10:48.720
In fact, um, so we're going across to San Francisco Climate Week at uh the end of April.
01:10:48.880 --> 01:10:49.279
Nice.
01:10:49.680 --> 01:10:56.159
Twenty years ago, I was in the middle of my PhD and I was captain in the Great Britain American football team in the US.
01:10:56.479 --> 01:11:05.520
And within that same year period, uh Google IPO'd, YouTube launched, Facebook launched, Amazon started for the first time.
01:11:05.760 --> 01:11:12.399
Like literally, that's uh OC wouldn't exist without that trip because I knew nothing about business when I went across there.
01:11:12.640 --> 01:11:15.760
First person in my family to finish school, never mind, go to college.
01:11:15.920 --> 01:11:20.479
And all of a sudden I went to the US and I was like, oh my God, this is amazing.
01:11:20.720 --> 01:11:27.279
These small teams of people, exactly at the same point in their life as I was, coming out of uni, were ready to start these businesses.
01:11:27.359 --> 01:11:32.880
And that sort of tech startup data-based approach has been our DNA throughout everything we're doing.
01:11:32.960 --> 01:11:53.439
So I'm going back to do that now, but as a result of that, AI's been a feature of what we were doing from like the earliest models of um we literally, the model we've built internally to evaluate acquisition opportunities is called Claudia because it's a supermodel and we can show Claudia existed 18 months before Claude did.
01:11:53.680 --> 01:11:55.840
We literally had a Claudia before Claude.
01:11:56.079 --> 01:11:58.000
Um so it's it's super, super exciting.
01:11:58.079 --> 01:12:01.600
But I I like your point about regular moments of oh my word.
01:12:01.760 --> 01:12:10.479
I remember one probably early January, it was my first encounter with like the latest iteration of Claude just before co-work dropped.
01:12:10.640 --> 01:12:13.680
And I traveled somewhere early, woke up at 6 a.m.
01:12:13.840 --> 01:12:18.720
I'm sat in a coffee shop, and just had a moment of oh my god, I can see where this is going.
01:12:18.800 --> 01:12:22.720
It is a level of speed and specialism that it just changes everything.
01:12:22.880 --> 01:12:34.640
And I pulled the entire team in and went, no, no, no, whatever we thought we had before, we've got to go again now, because fundamentally the speed and the way we can do everything has changed dramatically.
01:12:34.800 --> 01:12:36.239
Um and I'm super, super excited.
01:12:36.479 --> 01:12:43.039
I think what this what at the same time this shows though is that the quality of the human interaction becomes much more important.
01:12:43.359 --> 01:12:52.960
So the because when everything is possible, what or whom do you still trust becomes the becomes one of the most important questions.
01:12:53.279 --> 01:13:01.760
So that question of what is responsible trusted AI mean is really important.
01:13:01.840 --> 01:13:10.720
And I think it will still mean that you have companies, groups of people, peers that you you trust, you work with.
01:13:11.119 --> 01:13:21.359
I don't think that you know we're all gonna be vibe coded out of existence uh as AI or companies or software companies.
01:13:21.600 --> 01:13:27.680
I think there's that element of trust, especially when it comes to corporate data, will become more important, not less important.
01:13:27.920 --> 01:13:30.560
I think it'll create more jobs than it loses.
01:13:30.880 --> 01:13:36.720
I think every time we've seen we're sat on a podcast right now that employs people.
01:13:37.119 --> 01:13:40.079
Ten years ago, that of 15, that wouldn't have been a concept.
01:13:40.319 --> 01:13:43.600
Now, has that had knock-on effects on the television industry and radio?
01:13:43.920 --> 01:13:49.039
Yes, it has, but YouTube as a whole production base and everything that's associated with that.
01:13:49.359 --> 01:13:52.079
Um uh I can't remember the book that it was in.
01:13:52.399 --> 01:13:54.800
Uh I don't think it was yours.
01:13:55.119 --> 01:14:01.760
The um the first ever uh picketed um protest in New York.
01:14:02.239 --> 01:14:03.199
Are you familiar with this?
01:14:03.279 --> 01:14:04.079
What it was about?
01:14:04.479 --> 01:14:09.680
It was when humans were being replaced by horses for pulling fire engines.
01:14:09.840 --> 01:14:10.079
Yes.
01:14:10.239 --> 01:14:16.399
Yeah, so every and then there was the next process when horses were replaced by actual engines and progress.
01:14:16.560 --> 01:14:17.279
We will always see those.
01:14:17.760 --> 01:14:25.840
I think that that um that observation that technology always creates more jobs and risk disruptions.
01:14:25.920 --> 01:14:27.760
Uh I think that's held true in the past.
01:14:27.920 --> 01:14:36.159
With AI, of course, what is new, and we have to recognize that is that uh a lot of knowledge-based jobs are under pressure at the same time.
01:14:36.319 --> 01:14:40.319
Usually it used to be one industry at a time, it used to be one sector.
01:14:40.560 --> 01:14:41.680
Right basic media.
01:14:42.239 --> 01:14:42.399
Yeah.
01:14:42.560 --> 01:14:53.680
Now it's uh it's it's lawyers, teachers, it's you know, it's the whole all the range of all knowledge-based professions are being transformed.
01:14:53.840 --> 01:15:00.560
But it's I I agree with you that over time this will be this will be positive if we all lean in.
01:15:00.720 --> 01:15:05.199
My main pet sort of topic on AI is that we all have to lean in.
01:15:05.279 --> 01:15:08.000
Because AI is like a giant mirror of humankind.
01:15:08.159 --> 01:15:15.920
AI is more about AI is the discovery of how humanity thinks, not what we think, of how we think.
01:15:17.119 --> 01:15:22.640
If only a few people look into that mirror, it's gonna show that image.
01:15:22.880 --> 01:15:30.399
We all have to look in and we all have to look in with good intention and looking for the good parts in it, and then we will see a positive reflection.
01:15:30.800 --> 01:15:34.159
There's there's 80 million people in the UK, roughly.
01:15:34.399 --> 01:15:37.439
Uh, I looked at the stats yesterday morning.
01:15:37.760 --> 01:15:41.760
How many people do you think regularly use AI of that 80 million?
01:15:42.079 --> 01:15:43.199
I have no idea, honestly.
01:15:43.600 --> 01:15:44.640
10 million.
01:15:45.119 --> 01:15:49.520
Well, that's that's actually and do they know that they use AI regularly?
01:15:49.600 --> 01:15:50.560
Is it based on service?
01:15:51.439 --> 01:15:55.680
I think that's because I think a lot more actually use AI every day without knowing it.
01:15:56.000 --> 01:16:07.119
Yeah, I I I think I thought it was more than it was a checkpoint of oh no no, I live in this bubble of high-performing, like super, super talented young people.
01:16:07.520 --> 01:16:19.520
It's it's very widespread and mainstream, but at the moment it's also it's it's used a lot for gimmicky stuff, you know, and and and and I think that's that's that's a bit of a problem because there's a lot of energy that goes into these.
01:16:19.840 --> 01:16:26.319
How how much do you think from a concerning perspective about the energy and the water footprint?
01:16:27.279 --> 01:16:30.720
So we have this three-pillared strategy on AI sustainability.
01:16:30.800 --> 01:16:51.920
And the the first one is smart demand, that obviously AI is like the invention, let's let's say it's it's like the invention of the airplane, and suddenly everybody thinks, you know, oh, I need an airplane to go down to the post office now, and I'm gonna build an airplane, and so it saves me three minutes going down to the post office.
01:16:52.239 --> 01:16:53.920
But you don't need an airplane.
01:16:54.079 --> 01:17:00.399
Um, you don't need to a huge LLM for most tasks that corporations have, even people have.
01:17:00.800 --> 01:17:03.920
And the second pillar is efficiencies.
01:17:04.079 --> 01:17:10.800
Of course, efficiency gains can be eaten up by Jevin's paradox, you know, that things become more efficient, they become cheaper, people use more.
01:17:12.159 --> 01:17:15.840
And therefore, it has to be coupled with smart demand.
01:17:15.920 --> 01:17:20.800
We have to sort of limit what we actually use AI for and which models we use.
01:17:21.119 --> 01:17:23.039
And the third pillar is clean supply.
01:17:23.119 --> 01:17:27.760
This is to your question: what do we do about the energy and the water footprint?
01:17:28.079 --> 01:17:43.199
So on the clean supply, we have a large opportunity and responsibility as a major customer of AWS and Google and others to ensure the way they run their data centers is in line with what we want to see.
01:17:43.359 --> 01:17:53.279
Only renewable energy, very low water footprint, move to move away from water-based cooling as as much as possible if it's energy equivalent.
01:17:54.159 --> 01:18:02.239
Um so yeah, it's it's a lot on our minds, but I I honestly I it's messy and it's so fast evolving, and nobody's got it all figured out.
01:18:02.319 --> 01:18:08.399
It's not a it's not a clear case where we can say, yes, this will we'll have that under control.
01:18:09.600 --> 01:18:10.720
I it's so interesting.
01:18:10.880 --> 01:18:17.279
I think you're far more optimistic about governments than I am, and I'm far more optimistic about AI and hyperscalers.
01:18:17.520 --> 01:18:20.479
I um I think it's because they haven't disappointed me yet.
01:18:20.640 --> 01:18:21.439
Um yet.
01:18:21.760 --> 01:18:36.960
Uh I I honestly believe the speed of change, the speed of growth, the potential, the imagination, although electronic, and the capital that will be developed will have a net positive gain on the environment and on the planet.
01:18:37.199 --> 01:18:38.399
I think they will need to.
01:18:38.640 --> 01:18:44.239
But the social license to you look at the sort of sentiment surveys around AI in the US already now.
01:18:44.319 --> 01:18:46.880
Yeah, so many people are like, whoa, we're not happy about it.
01:18:47.279 --> 01:18:48.319
They will need that.
01:18:48.560 --> 01:18:57.840
That goes into, and I haven't had this conversation with Microsoft in this way, but you know, they've bought in excess of 80 million tons solo in terms of carbon credits now.
01:18:58.000 --> 01:19:04.000
Their hypothesis must be that is the requirement of a social license to operate in the future.
01:19:04.239 --> 01:19:09.520
Ergo, if they get ahead of time, they will be the people who are allowed to and able to operate in that regard.
01:19:09.680 --> 01:19:11.039
And I think it will come.
01:19:11.119 --> 01:19:17.279
And I think the more digital the world becomes, the more reliant and the more special, the more unique our relationship with nature will be.
01:19:17.600 --> 01:19:18.960
Yeah, I think you're totally right.
01:19:19.039 --> 01:19:28.319
I would just add to what you say that this will happen and will have a net positive benefit if we all now lean in and structure it in that way.
01:19:28.399 --> 01:19:31.119
Because there's many decisions now that need to be taken.
01:19:31.279 --> 01:19:34.319
And also from I mentioned our 100 million tree program.
01:19:34.560 --> 01:19:38.239
We are now at 65 million trees that we planted.
01:19:38.560 --> 01:19:40.079
It's a staggering number.
01:19:40.720 --> 01:19:42.000
35 million to go.
01:19:42.159 --> 01:19:43.920
It's yeah, it's it's it's a lot of trees.
01:19:44.079 --> 01:19:46.000
Um we learned a lot along the way, by the way.
01:19:46.079 --> 01:19:51.119
I also talk about that a little bit in the book and one project that didn't go so well, but most of them did.
01:19:51.520 --> 01:20:01.119
I um and we've now restructured where we plant those trees or restore forest ecosystems as we prefer to talk about it, more holistic approach.
01:20:01.359 --> 01:20:12.319
We focus all of that on the main water basins and watersheds where we have water dependencies, either because of data center locations, main office buildings, office towers.
01:20:12.640 --> 01:20:19.439
So we also clearly see we have to invest where we also benefit from nature and from those ecosystem services.
01:20:19.680 --> 01:20:27.199
So I think we we you're right that it will, it can have net positive benefits, but we all need to lean in.
01:20:27.279 --> 01:20:41.119
And one of the focus areas we have at the moment is also that many NGOs don't have the kind of capacity and skills and no chief technology officer, no budget for large IT investments.
01:20:42.800 --> 01:20:51.439
All those NGOs also should use the positive benefits AI to make their work more efficient, to make them more powerful, more effective.
01:20:51.680 --> 01:21:04.800
So that's been one of our focus areas in the past few years to ensure that there's NGO capacity that also can use this for nature, for humanitarian aid, for climate action, for education.
01:21:04.960 --> 01:21:13.439
Um, and that's that's the very popular program we run called the AI Accelerator for agents for impact for NGOs.
01:21:13.680 --> 01:21:22.159
Gives them a cash grant and then some pro bono support, some free technology to build up this Argentiera with Rare, for example.
01:21:22.399 --> 01:21:31.439
Um, another example is Forest Stewardship Council now runs a lot of their very complicated forest certification processes on an AI agent.
01:21:31.600 --> 01:21:39.119
Um, we work with um with the Ocean Risk and Resilience Action Alliance.
01:21:39.199 --> 01:21:47.760
They have something called the Octopus Desk that links ocean investment projects with investors, and that's a that's an AI agent that will run that.
01:21:48.000 --> 01:21:52.319
So I think there's a lot of things that NGOs can use this for, but normally they can't afford the technology.
01:21:52.399 --> 01:21:57.920
They don't know how to have the people to and the knowledge because they're all working in the tech industry.
01:21:58.000 --> 01:21:59.600
Um getting paid large numbers.
01:22:01.039 --> 01:22:02.000
Getting paid more.
01:22:02.159 --> 01:22:09.119
Um, so I think we need to balance that and and make sure that that's that AI is more democratized in that way.
01:22:11.600 --> 01:22:13.359
And if that happens, I think you're right.
01:22:13.439 --> 01:22:15.039
I think we'll we'll get there.
01:22:15.279 --> 01:22:29.920
I I I love the um the breadth of interventions you guys are working across because there's some direct projects, there is some more of the philanthropic side of stuff, there's this social, there's the cultural aspects of it, there's the and geographically you're working across the globe as well.
01:22:30.079 --> 01:22:38.640
You you mentioned about the sort of um almost you maybe don't use this language, but like the venture-style investments you're making, the sort of more commercial ones.
01:22:38.880 --> 01:22:42.239
Um we're literally just about to launch our own program of that.
01:22:42.319 --> 01:22:56.800
So I was always of a view that we wanted to get to a scale where we could attract institutional capital because if we're a unicorn company and we're managing billions of assets under management, the stimulus effect we would have on local supply change.
01:22:57.039 --> 01:22:58.159
We couldn't do it without.
01:22:58.239 --> 01:22:59.199
It's a necessity.
01:22:59.840 --> 01:23:00.720
It has to come.
01:23:00.880 --> 01:23:04.399
Um, a bit like your point about carbon markets, they just have to be a thing.
01:23:04.640 --> 01:23:06.800
Um, but we need it to come faster.
01:23:06.880 --> 01:23:11.760
So at the moment, we've got four of the biggest restoration projects occurring in the entire of Scotland.
01:23:11.920 --> 01:23:21.920
We are using the entire supply chain of Peatland restoration experts to the point whereby the contractors we're working with are having to train people live time on the jobs.
01:23:22.079 --> 01:23:24.560
So we're launching our auction accelerator program.
01:23:24.720 --> 01:23:35.600
So around each of the estates, we are saying we have capital, we have literal living laboratories, we have space, we have an amazing array of technical experts that can help mentor and support you.
01:23:35.840 --> 01:23:39.520
Come along, present your ideas, help us support and incubate those.
01:23:39.680 --> 01:23:44.399
And I didn't think we were going to do that, but actually, we need the supply chain to scale at such a pace.
01:23:44.479 --> 01:23:45.920
We're starting to do that this year.
01:23:46.000 --> 01:23:57.199
So we've made our first investment into a herbivore management company, some experts in terms of deer management and goat, which are presenting significant threats to natural regeneration habitats up there.
01:23:57.359 --> 01:24:08.399
We're also talking to a specialist now who's pitched his idea that um small-scale local improvements in individual properties from an environmental and a sustainability perspective.
01:24:08.640 --> 01:24:12.960
So, not renewable energy per se, but what can you do at the fabric of an individual property?
01:24:13.119 --> 01:24:19.359
And these are in very uh rugged rural environments where you know a one size fits all doesn't work anywhere.
01:24:19.520 --> 01:24:20.720
These properties are historic.
01:24:20.800 --> 01:24:26.399
So by the time your podcast release, we'll probably have released that program calling for people to apply for it.
01:24:26.640 --> 01:24:31.760
I think there's there's an asymmetry there of there's so much talent and potential in these rural communities.
01:24:31.920 --> 01:24:34.399
But actually, most of the focus still remains in cities.
01:24:34.479 --> 01:24:37.600
So if we can help unlock some of that, it would be amazing.
01:24:38.079 --> 01:24:39.279
Yeah, yeah, fully agree.
01:24:39.359 --> 01:24:40.880
And it's wonderful that you're doing all that.
01:24:40.960 --> 01:24:42.159
I actually didn't know that.
01:24:42.239 --> 01:24:44.000
Um we haven't talked about it publicly yet.
01:24:44.079 --> 01:24:47.039
It's really, it's really new, so that'll come out in May, I think.
01:24:47.359 --> 01:24:48.399
Yeah, it's amazing.
01:24:48.640 --> 01:25:06.079
Salesforce actually has um because we we have a large ecosystem of people who use Salesforce as a platform, also as independent software vendors, and and there's a lot of solutions on our app exchange where people just build these solutions and then they add to the overall ecosystem.
01:25:06.239 --> 01:25:10.880
So it's it's been part of Salesforce's DNA also from the beginning.
01:25:11.119 --> 01:25:18.239
I think you're right that we have to build this, we have to, we have to reach that scale much faster.
01:25:18.720 --> 01:25:27.520
And I love that you have this open open source idea of sort of helping the whole ecosystem that we need in place.
01:25:27.840 --> 01:25:29.359
Because it's it's all about the people.
01:25:29.600 --> 01:25:33.520
Restoration is um it's a it's a human interaction challenge.
01:25:33.680 --> 01:25:42.000
We have the technology and the tools, and but it's it's it's about it's about ecosystem management more than ecosystem management, right?
01:25:42.159 --> 01:25:48.640
So we have to we have to make sure that that that human capital, that social capital is there.
01:25:48.880 --> 01:25:51.039
I love, by the way, the four returns framework.
01:25:51.119 --> 01:25:54.800
Are you are you familiar with the four returns framework of Commonland?
01:25:55.119 --> 01:25:56.239
No, remind me.
01:25:56.560 --> 01:26:17.039
So a good friend of mine, Willem Ferveder, is um started more than 15 years ago now, this c this company is a Dutch foundation called Commonland with the idea to build a business blueprint for large-scale 60,000 hectare plus landscape restoration projects and make them economically viable.
01:26:17.199 --> 01:26:19.600
It was at the time when nobody was really talking about this.
01:26:19.760 --> 01:26:39.680
So he got a lot of philanthropists and family offices to fund him and team of experts who and they've built the four returns framework of the returns you should aim for are, of course, financial return, but there's also return of social capital, of natural capital, and of inspirational capital.
01:26:39.920 --> 01:26:44.399
And then they have this model of 20 years at least of investing.
01:26:44.560 --> 01:26:52.000
They have zones in these 60,000 plus hectare areas, and they run a number of them now across the world.
01:26:52.079 --> 01:27:02.319
I think it's one of the best thought-through models for scaling this in areas where there's many stakeholders, many villages, towns that are part of these massive landscapes.
01:27:02.560 --> 01:27:05.520
It's really a it's a it's a great framework for I I love it.
01:27:05.600 --> 01:27:07.119
And we ascribe to it fully.
01:27:07.199 --> 01:27:18.399
I mean, we don't use the same language in terms of the inspirational side of it, but it's why we it's why we publish, it's why we share vlogs and the podcast and all those things to try and have that similar effect.
01:27:18.720 --> 01:27:24.000
Um, you mentioned we we hadn't met and and you hadn't come across oxygen before writing that book.
01:27:24.079 --> 01:27:29.840
And as I was working through it and um I study books, so I'm highlighting bits in pink and scribbling in the margin.
01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:35.840
And it just felt as if oxygen was the conclusion that should have sat at the back end of the book.
01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:43.680
Because I love that you write that there isn't enough bankable projects that can absorb the hundreds of millions necessary to engage.
01:27:43.840 --> 01:27:45.520
And that's what we've tried to build.
01:27:45.680 --> 01:27:49.119
And actually, for the first time this year, we will be raising externally.
01:27:49.279 --> 01:27:55.840
So we're gonna try and do a half billion raise later this year to sit alongside what is essentially already our first half billion portfolio.
01:27:56.000 --> 01:27:59.760
If we can bring those two things together, we think getting to Unicorn status is.
01:28:00.159 --> 01:28:05.760
As a nature-based conservation asset manager will have that catalytic effect on the sector as a whole.
01:28:05.920 --> 01:28:13.439
And hopefully, I love when companies are able to move a decade in a day, things leap forward like the Tesla Model S.
01:28:13.520 --> 01:28:19.520
You went from a Prius that was a compromise to a luxury vehicle that all of a sudden transcended everything.
01:28:19.680 --> 01:28:25.439
We've seen it multiple times with OpenAI doing that, Anthropic doing it later.
01:28:25.520 --> 01:28:27.760
Now, we want to do that for the sector as well.
01:28:27.920 --> 01:28:33.920
All of a sudden, if we have a billion under management, then I think that'll be a stimulus for the next hundred startups and companies that will come.
01:28:34.159 --> 01:28:43.680
Yeah, and I love that you're you're expanding into Europe now because I think there's a lot of potential in all of the EU countries to do this at scale.
01:28:43.840 --> 01:28:49.279
I think one of the things you will run into and one of the difficulties is that the ownership structure is just different.
01:28:49.439 --> 01:28:52.000
You have vast estates that have like one owner.
01:28:52.239 --> 01:29:00.079
And you can say, I buy this estate of 3,000 hectares or 10,000 acres, how much doesn't exist in a lot of places.
01:29:00.239 --> 01:29:23.680
Mostly you have small, smaller scale farms where you will have to use a different, I don't know, you, where we, we have to, as the collective nature restoration movement, will have to use different models where we then, it's more like an outgrow scheme or it's more like a collaborative where you have hundreds of farmers collaborating on a large-scale ecosystem restoration project.
01:29:23.760 --> 01:29:28.560
This is where where common lands um methodology is really useful.
01:29:28.640 --> 01:29:37.199
And it's being applied by both commercial and and uh nonprofit restoration uh developers around the world.
01:29:37.359 --> 01:29:52.159
I think that getting large, getting consensus amongst a lot of people for doing restoration in a certain way and learning as we go along is the next frontier of scaling this up.
01:29:52.319 --> 01:30:00.399
If we can solve that, and again, AI can maybe help us solve that, we will be able to raise again.
01:30:00.560 --> 01:30:21.279
We now putting on my hat as the advisory board member of the UN decade on Exist Mastration, we as the collective movement, for-profit, these companies, the you as the first unicorn and other unicorns, will be able to scale this up to other jurisdictions and to larger landscapes and attract significant finance.
01:30:21.520 --> 01:30:23.039
But we need the governments on board.
01:30:23.359 --> 01:30:24.159
Coming back to that point.
01:30:24.479 --> 01:30:26.000
I think I think you're gonna sort that for us.
01:30:26.159 --> 01:30:28.000
I'll just rely on you to sort the government out.
01:30:28.239 --> 01:30:30.239
Um, Tim, you've been incredibly kind with your time.
01:30:30.319 --> 01:30:31.520
I've I've loved every minute.
01:30:31.680 --> 01:30:34.239
Um I end every podcast with the same question.
01:30:34.479 --> 01:30:37.600
What's the one question I haven't asked you you wish I had?
01:30:41.600 --> 01:30:47.520
I think you've been um very thorough and also shared a lot of your deep insights.
01:30:47.600 --> 01:30:49.119
So it's been massively useful.
01:30:49.279 --> 01:31:01.680
I would just love to end on this note that this is also a crisis of relationship and it's an opportunity of relationship with nature more even than it is of finance and technology.
01:31:01.920 --> 01:31:10.560
So just like to encourage everybody to spend more time with nature, spend more time observing, listening, reconnecting.
01:31:10.720 --> 01:31:15.119
That's I think one of the best things we can we can do, and it's free.
00:00:06.719 --> 00:00:10.240
I mean, I asked you early on about did you expect to get where you are?
00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:16.399
You have had an incredibly unique career path to this to this point.
00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:21.039
And we've got your your book sat on top of mine, taking pride of place there.
00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:28.399
How on earth does someone end up in a position of writing what is one of the formative books on nature of our time?
00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:33.759
How did how did the how did the contents page of your career make that book a reality?
00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:37.359
Well, first it's great to be here and great to meet you in person, Rich.
00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:41.920
I um an admirer of what you're doing here, so um this is great.
00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:46.240
I just collected stories like yours and poured it into that book.
00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:56.159
Um I wrote the book before I knew about oxygen conservation, by the way, but uh my yeah, my career path, as you know, started in the United Nations.
00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:59.679
I was um there for 15 years before that.
00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:13.439
I was with the International Union for the Conservation of Nature with ICN, um, setting up our office in the Caucasus and in Southeast Europe and running what was at that point, our program for Commonwealth Independent States in Eastern Europe.
00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:17.599
And so nature's always been the red thread in my career.
00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:21.920
And that started way before university and started when I was a kid.
00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:26.159
Um, I think I did my first restoration project when I was 10.
00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:29.599
Um, the pond in my grandparents' garden.
00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:45.920
Um and so to me, it all makes sense, and I didn't really think about it, but I I see that it's actually not very common for people to shift from an NGO to government, to I worked for the European Commission for a while, to the UN.
00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:49.840
And then I had at the UN what is uh basically lifetime employment.
00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:56.799
I was a civil servant with a diplomatic passport and contract end date, I think somewhere in 2038.
00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:03.280
Um and I would, I actually never thought I would change to work for the private sector.
00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:16.159
Um but then four years ago, five years ago, Salesforce approached me because they were setting up what is called the Trillion Trees Initiative.
00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:21.280
You remember in the early 2020s with planting trees was the thing, right?
00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:23.759
Everybody was like, oh yeah, it's just plant lots of trees.
00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:25.439
That will solve everything.
00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:35.039
And um they were extremely well intentioned and um set up the Trillion Trees Initiative with the World Economic Forum.
00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:39.439
And at that time, I set up the UN decade on ecosystem illustration at UNEP.
00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:41.919
And so they asked for advice.
00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:44.159
How do you how should we go about this?
00:02:44.319 --> 00:02:47.520
How should we, which stakeholders should we work with?
00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:49.439
How do you what is a trillion trees?
00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:50.319
What does that mean?
00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:56.240
Um so I advised that initiative, and then over time they kept coming back to me with questions.
00:02:56.319 --> 00:02:57.680
It's like, well, what do we do now?
00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:01.840
How do we how do we make our own commitment of 100 million trees?
00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:03.039
How do we do that?
00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:09.599
And at some point that is the well, why didn't you come and work for us and uh set up a nature program, set up a water program?
00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:15.039
What's this thing called TNFD, you know, task force on nature-related financial disclosures?
00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:18.800
All those things were relatively new to many businesses just a few years ago.
00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:26.879
And um I thought long and hard about leaving the UN because I really believe in the mission and the mandate of the UN.
00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:36.719
But um I thought at that point in my career at least, I had done what I could to set a framework for what needs to be done.
00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:41.680
Setting up the UN decade on ecosystem restoration, setting up a strategy.
00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:50.159
I was part of many of these international agreements and discussions about the global biodiversity framework.
00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:54.560
But there was there was no oomph in it.
00:03:54.719 --> 00:04:00.879
You know, there were the there were these decisions, but there was no engine to run it.
00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:04.240
At least it wasn't running well-tuned and in the right direction.
00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:15.840
So when I researched Salesforce, I saw that they have about 200,000 corporate customers, all the Fortune funder companies, 60,000 NGOs run on Salesforce.
00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:20.480
And there's a trust relationship with all these organizations.
00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:28.639
It's almost like a catalyst within the private sector with connections to all these entities.
00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:38.639
So I thought, wow, that's a that's a catalytic point where you can make sure they know what biodiversity is and nature and why it matters.
00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:40.240
Um so I made that shift.
00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:42.240
Haven't regretted it.
00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:45.279
It's a super on, it's a super exciting learning journey every day.
00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:53.519
I mean, now with the rise of AI, it's uh constantly catching up on what's what's new and what's the latest.
00:04:53.680 --> 00:05:14.560
Um but yeah, I then thought I should put some of that into a book so we can I can share that message of the basic shifts we need to value nature and to build global ecological literacy, which is partly what the book's about.
00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:20.639
When you go back to that time of making the decision, what what was the best thing about working at the UN?
00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:22.480
What did you enjoy the most about it?
00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:29.120
The United Nations is, in my view, is the best idea humanity has ever had collectively.
00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:34.480
Now, we collectively, as one humanity, we haven't had that many ideas, so it's also perhaps in the first.
00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:42.800
But um you recall that it was really at a time when the world was in in tatters.
00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:46.079
It was really trust was broken.
00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:52.240
And historians call this period we live in or we lived in, shall we maybe say, the long peace.
00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:59.839
80 years, where the large powers of the world have not been in direct conflict with each other.
00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:02.560
That's very unusual across all of human history.
00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:07.120
That's the that's the achievement of the United Nations.
00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:24.639
The UN is I like Dark Hamaskjull's quote about the UN, uh he was the second Secretary General, and he said that the role of the UN is not to take humankind to heaven, but to save humanity from hell.
00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:28.160
And the UN has been really, really good at doing that.
00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:36.720
They get a lot of flack for being slow and bureaucratic, but think of peace and stability, or when we think of the environment.
00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:41.600
When I was a kid, there's a lot of talk about the ozone hole.
00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:45.680
You know, there's uh skin cancer, fear everywhere.
00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:53.600
Um, pictures of these cows in Australia that had to sort of wear sunscreen all day and because they would otherwise get fried.
00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:56.800
And the UN fixed that.
00:06:56.879 --> 00:07:04.959
Like that's probably the largest environmental achievement of the UN to date, um, the Montreal Protocol and closing the Ozan Hall.
00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:11.439
It's one of it's it's the only planetary boundary that's actually healing and improving.
00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:16.319
Um and I think we can do similar things through the UN for climate.
00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:23.199
If you look at the climate, and again, the Paris Agreement gets a lot of is under a lot of attack.
00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:31.040
But I think that attack is misdirected often against the UN, because the UN is doing what it's set up to do.
00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:38.480
In this case, we were set for four degrees warming by the end of the century, just ten years ago.
00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:40.959
We're now set at 2.7.
00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:50.560
Still way too much, still tens of millions of uh people's lives at risk, but not hundreds of millions of people's lives at risk.
00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:55.120
So that delta is the achievement of the UN.
00:07:56.399 --> 00:07:59.759
The best thing about the UN is its product is consensus.
00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:03.600
You know, consensus is hard to achieve among humans.
00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:08.639
Um and once the whole world agrees on something, that is really powerful.
00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:17.920
And I still remember the UN General Assembly decision to proclaim the UN decade on ecosystem restorations was uh in March 2019.
00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:32.080
And um you see that the General Assembly debates this idea and then comes up with the plan to halt and reverse the degradation of ecosystems worldwide.
00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:36.559
Nothing that's a pretty big statement.
00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:38.559
Of course, that then needs to be filled with action.
00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:51.600
But that that a General Assembly where you know Israel is there and Iran and Saudi Arabia and then the US and then there's Russia, and these moments are rare when everybody agrees on something.
00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:54.080
And in particular right now.
00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:56.320
So that's really powerful about the UN.
00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:03.200
What is of course not so powerful about the UN is that it's a super bureaucratic machinery.
00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:08.240
It's very, it can be very risk-averse and sclerotic in terms of speed.
00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:24.000
So in my ideal world, I would we would have a UN that is as professional, efficient, and well-resourced as a multi-billion dollar company like Salesforce with the mandate that they have.
00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:31.360
Um so yeah, I really believe that AI and technology could help UN and all of us deliver better on our land.
00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:38.720
What was the what were the conditions for you personally at that time period that allowed you to make that leap and that change?
00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:43.360
Because so many you you you said it yourself, you had a you had a job for life.
00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:47.200
And so many people get comfortable, get set, and go, do you know what?
00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:48.399
It's so lovely here.
00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:49.759
That's me done.
00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:50.559
But you didn't.
00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:55.279
You reinvented and you took what I'm sure some in your life might have said, What are you doing, Tim?
00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:56.159
That's a massive leap.
00:09:56.240 --> 00:10:03.759
That's a completely different lot of colleagues said, Well, so what was it about you that made you feel able, motivated, and ready to make that step?
00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:05.440
It was COVID.
00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:14.000
You know, this was uh during the beginning of COVID, and it was it was a time of great uncertainty.
00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:19.200
And then and you know the saying never waste a good crisis.
00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:27.279
Um when everything is about to change anyway, you can really make drastic changes.
00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:41.120
Um, and it it was also combined with the fact that my wife and I, we've been speaking of buying a little farm somewhere in the countryside, and we've been talking about that since we met each other, like almost 25 years ago.
00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:56.159
And uh it was finally possible with COVID relocate for a time out of Nairobi where we lived, go to Europe, stay there for more than a summer, and take the time to find our place, find our farm.
00:10:56.320 --> 00:11:15.919
So in in 2020, um, end of 2020, we we bought a farm in Denmark and are now restoring that to hopefully soil health and more biodiversity, more water retention capacity, all the things you're trying to do here as well, um on a much small, much smaller scale, though.
00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:22.799
And that's been um that's been a passion project, but it was that opportunity that came through a crisis.
00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:28.240
So I think that is really important to recognize that every crisis has opportunity in it.
00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:30.159
Have you always felt that way?
00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:32.320
Not in a crisis, no.
00:11:32.559 --> 00:11:50.559
It's sometimes very difficult to remember that in a crisis because when you're in a crisis and we're we're collectively in a crisis right now as humanity, it's very difficult to remember that because you're so focused on the short term and it's you tend to be fear guided.
00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:54.159
Fear is not a good long-term advisor, though.
00:11:54.720 --> 00:12:02.559
Um fear is really good at sort of short-term risk mitigation, but fear is not a good not a good long-term advisor.
00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:25.600
Fear leads to hoarding and greed and fear competition that is more than it should be so in um in a in a crisis, uh it takes a conscious effort to to remember wait a minute, this is happening for a reason, it's not the end of the world.
00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:29.039
Um what what can we learn?
00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:30.159
What can we do better?
00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:33.039
And what can we take out of this and go forward?
00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:41.919
And I think as humanity right now, things are sort of the plot is thickening, right?
00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:46.159
We have the rise of AI, great opportunity, but also immense risk.
00:12:46.720 --> 00:13:04.639
We have imminent ecosystem collapse at large scale, still, despite take and global restoration and conservation, we have climate crisis, we have growing inequality, which is at at historic even historically at very high levels.
00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:10.240
So all of that points to a transformation that is needed.
00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:14.320
I think a big part of that transformation is a new relationship with nature.
00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:20.159
We've forgotten who our family is, where our home is.
00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:22.559
You um it's a beautiful segue.
00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:33.200
You you open the book with a huge idea, with a first generation that actually has the tools, the knowledge, the money to rebuild nature as critical infrastructure.
00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:35.519
That that framing is beautiful.
00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:41.200
Can you talk a little bit around your realization of that and and how that informed the rest of the book?
00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:47.759
So write the book took me about two years to write because I mostly did it on evenings and and weekends.
00:13:48.000 --> 00:14:16.399
Um but um so it was it was at a time where the the rise of AI was um was already becoming apparent, but this generative that the generative AI wave, and then now the wave we're in at the agentic wave where you have autonomous AI agents taking decisions on your behalf, that was that was not yet uh a thing.
00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:29.360
So I think every every generation is special in the sense that every generation has to make decisions that are formative.
00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:34.240
Um generations live in less interesting and some in more interesting times.
00:14:34.480 --> 00:14:38.799
Um I think we live in very interesting times.
00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:47.039
And we are indeed the first generation that has all the tools and all the resources and all the money.
00:14:47.120 --> 00:15:05.360
I mean, let's not forget how much money there is in the world and how many things are being paid for right now with our taxpayer money that make things worse, and that we could redirect fossil fuel subsidies, for example, into things like ecosystem restoration that would rebuild our economies.
00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:08.000
So we have all the tools we need.
00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:16.240
What we lack is imagination, which is really a critical ingredient, and it's not really to do with technology.
00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:23.440
Um we lack the imagination, and I in the book I also speak about shifting baseline syndrome.
00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:37.840
And I use this example of 50 years of trophy fishing of the Key West in Florida, where there's a photo series of the Gulf Stream 2, this ship that sort of for 50 years took tourists out to fish.
00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:48.240
And um you compare this photo line, and in 1957, you have these huge sharks and giant groupers that are bigger than the people.
00:15:50.559 --> 00:16:01.120
And in the 2000s, 2007, you have 90% reduced catch size of the fish.
00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:03.840
You have a fraction of the species.
00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:10.000
Fish are really sort of that size suddenly, and you compare these photos side by side.
00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:14.639
But what is striking is that the people in the photo, they look equally happy.
00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:15.679
They don't know.
00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:19.679
But imagine that this would be happening on the same day.
00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:29.600
There was one one boat would come back from the charter tour with these huge fish and amazing catch, and the next boat would come in with hardly any fish.
00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:31.039
They would ask for their money back.
00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:32.639
They would say, Well, well, what's going on here?
00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:33.360
What's happening?
00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:37.039
Why aren't we enjoying that wealth, that abundance?
00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:46.080
And I think that imagination that we can get back to that abundance of nature and diversity of nature, we have to instill that in people.
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:54.399
I love to see a Netflix series that uses generative AI to paint the picture of what these restored landscapes could look like.
00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:57.279
What is what is it that we have lost?
00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:01.519
I think that imagination is lacking because we can get it back.
00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:04.960
It's not a in some cases, it will take, of course, very long.
00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:12.559
You know, a giant redwood tree is 800 grows for 800 years, doesn't even take eight hours to cut it down.
00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:26.559
Um but in in other cases, nature responds amazingly quickly to that intention to restore and diversity and abundance bounce back amazingly quickly.
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:29.359
So yeah, we're we're a special generation.
00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:37.440
Um at some point, I think I feel that there's really an a groundswell of that awareness.
00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:46.079
I mean, if you search for generation restoration, which is the hashtag of the UN decade, there's about 140,000 posts on Instagram.
00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:53.279
They're all like local projects, they're mostly young people, they're people interested in regenerative agriculture and farming.
00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:59.039
Um so there is something happening on that front.
00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:01.920
There's a there's a groundswell of of awareness.
00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:08.960
And I think this notion that we are part of nature and that we have to remember that is that is growing.
00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:17.920
One of the most powerful things in the book is you really exploring in detail that we are part of nature.
00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:25.119
Can you can you give people a view of where you think we lost that and how important it is to realize that relationship?
00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:32.319
I traced, I tried to find that out for myself because I realized that I did not really see nature as nature.
00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:35.359
I saw nature, especially after studying forestry at university.
00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:43.839
I walk around in a forest, it's like, oh, this is three volumetric meters of good oak timber could be turned into veneer.
00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:46.799
It's worth 2,000 euros.
00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:52.400
You walk around and you look at trees in that way, and you look at how to improve silviculture.
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:54.480
That's what we're trained to do.
00:18:54.640 --> 00:19:05.039
And at some point I was asking myself, what is what happened to the boy who was walking through the forest and was inspired by the energy that was flowing through the system?
00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:10.240
I could I have this sort of the sense of feeling the energy that pulses through an ecosystem.
00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:28.240
Find that difficult, still difficult to explain, but I think I would have been a better forester as a 10-year-old boy than after graduating from forestry at university in terms of understanding what the ecosystem needs and how it works.
00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:34.559
So I was trying to find a way to reconnect with that and then combine the best of both worlds.
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:40.720
When I traced back how I think collectively as humanity, we lost that connection.
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:43.039
I think it's the philosophy of the Enlightenment.
00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:58.559
It goes back to the 16th, early 17th century, and especially uh René Descartes and his contemporaries who made this very clear distinction that only humans are divine.
00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:03.599
Everything else is a commodity that is put here for our convenience.
00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:08.880
Um, animals are soulless, machines that purely act on instinct.
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:27.599
Um and that was hammered into our collective Western consciousness so deeply that it really framed how we set up economic structures, how we set up the rules of the economy.
00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:34.160
Nature is still seen as a commodity in in modern economics, which it it isn't.
00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:39.839
Um but you can trace that back to the so-called era of enlightenment.
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:41.440
I think it's a misnomer that that era.
00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:53.599
Of course, it brought a lot of progress and and um especially on in political structures, but it it also really blinded us to this connection with nature.
00:20:54.319 --> 00:21:00.079
You think the you think you swapped imagination or measurement during your education?
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.119
Do you think it's a failing of how we educate?
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:08.480
I would say in in general, yes, it of course it depends.
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:12.319
There are there are educations that are all about more imagination.
00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:28.960
Um, but especially in um in the natural sciences, we have a tendency to then only take scientific evidence as our guiding star.
00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:32.720
And I think there's there's of course a lot of merit to it because it's replicable.
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:38.559
It's the only common language that we can speak as one humanity, because everybody can replicate those results.
00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:44.799
But you can actually also replicate other things in the same way, like the results of meditation.
00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:51.920
If you do it right and you do it often and long enough, everybody gets the same results after a while.
00:21:52.160 --> 00:22:00.960
So these are these are also scientific techniques of understanding and knowing that we can use, but that we've Forgotten about.
00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:08.720
So that lack of imagination is also to do with the lack of our intuition and being in tune with nature.
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:14.960
And I mean I'm saying all this, of course, knowing that this is an ongoing learning journey for me and all of us.
00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:17.519
I'm not perfectly in tune with nature.
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:23.759
And I discover everyday things on our farm and with the animals and with the wildlife.
00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:40.079
And where where I think, wow, this is um this is really, really so clever and so well done and designed that the best we can do sometimes is to watch and listen and observe nature and then react.
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:45.440
Whereas we do it the the other way around at the moment mostly.
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:47.599
We think we have all the answers.
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:52.079
We design ecosystems so they serve our purposes.
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:53.920
But I think we've come to the end of that road.
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:55.119
We have to re-re consider.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:13.119
One of the um one of the interesting approaches you take in the book is you tell the story about New York Bay and the loss of three billion native oysters and not just the nature loss and the ecological loss, but the infrastructure that was lost to the environment there.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:17.359
Um can you help people understand that concept and and describe that realization?
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:41.839
So if you would have sailed to into New York about 400 years ago, 300 years ago, it would have been a completely different experience because there were 200,000 acres, about 80,000 hectares of oyster reefs all across um Upper Bay, Hudson River, the estuary.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:46.000
And you know, oysters filter water and very effectively.
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:50.160
So they would have filtered all that water about once a day.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:58.880
Oyster reefs are also the home to a whole array of other species, shoals of fish, um, even marine mammals.
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:04.400
There would have been an unimaginable abundance of wildlife in that whole area around New York.
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:07.359
They were, of course, also great protection against storm surges.
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:10.960
But what happened then is um they were all eaten.
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:15.200
The last commercial oyster bed closed in New York, I think, in 1927.
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:19.839
Before that, oysters were exported from New York to all over the world to Europe.
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:26.559
Um and the water got too dirty for the oysters to live because of raw sewage influx.
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:36.240
If you go today into New York and you ask a New Yorker in the streets, you know, this should actually be called the big oyster, not the big apple.
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:37.440
Do you know anything about that?
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:38.319
Do you know about oysters?
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:42.559
They would say, Well, I don't know, the oysters, what have we to do with them?
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:43.519
People don't know.
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:46.960
They've lost that imagination.
00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:57.839
And instead we have things like Superstorm Sandy and other extreme weather events that could have been mitigated by that critical natural infrastructure.
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:02.079
So I'm really pleased about things like the Billion Oysters Project.
00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:08.319
That's a that's a project that's trying to reverse that loss of all these oyster reefs.
00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:30.319
But we need to increase those efforts at orders of magnitude, which is why I think it's so important that we see nature partly as critical infrastructure for all of our societies and for national economies, because it's only if we have massive public works projects that we can get to the level of investment that we need.
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:32.799
Take peatlands in the UK, for example.
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:48.000
If you want to um re-wet a lot of the peatlands that were lost, you want to re-establish these huge wetlands, Somerset Downs, and all these very large, beautiful areas, Scottish peatlands.
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:57.359
That's a project that is probably not going to happen based on the voluntary carbon market or other small payments.
00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:00.400
They have to be massive public works projects.
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:07.440
I think we're still a bit away from that, but we are we are getting there.
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:08.640
Really interesting.
00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:17.039
So um, you're the first person I saw put words on paper about nature being categorized as critical infrastructure.
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:21.599
Um the first person I had vocalized, that was Rob Gardner at Rebalance Earth.
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:22.960
And we spoke about, shout out to Rob.
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:23.599
Hey Rob.
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:27.359
We spoke about um his podcast before before we started recording.
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:37.680
I think it's a really interesting challenge because we need that language, whether it's a public works program or whether it's unlocking institutional capital to come into these projects.
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:45.279
By using infrastructure, we give a commonality of language, a terminology, a revenue profile that make it accessible to people.
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:51.680
Yet we still see people push back and go, no, no, no, it's inappropriate to put a price on nature.
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:53.920
How do you respond to that challenge?
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:58.240
It's um it's an it that's a fascinating question.
00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:09.200
And there's no easy answer to that because when we started to put a price on nature, and you know, all the way back in 2008, there was this project called the Economics of Ecosystems and Biodiversity T that the UN started.
00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:13.200
And then there was a T for agriculture and a T for this and that.
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:16.640
Um I think that was part of when this started.
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:28.000
And then a few years later, the UN launched, and this is probably not known widely because it's actually super technical, but the UN has a statistics handbook.
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:30.960
900 pages, probably the most boring book in the world.
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:37.519
But it but it determines how governments measure what public wealth and national wealth is.
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:40.319
It's called the UN statistical handbook.
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:48.640
And in 2012, they introduced a concept called the system of environmental economic accounting, where for the first time you could measure natural capital.
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:51.440
Wasn't a thing before then for countries.
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:52.720
What year did that appear?
00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:53.440
2012.
00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:57.119
And then since then, more and more countries have adopted that.
00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:00.079
It's still a voluntary add-on to that statistical handbook.
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:07.759
But things like that that happen in the background are super important for that understanding of nature as an infrastructure.
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:24.160
But with that study of the economics of biodiversity, also, of course, came the bit of a backlash, especially from indigenous communities, indigenous peoples, who said we should not commodify nature even more by putting a price on it.
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:30.079
And I'm still somewhat in two minds about that because I think we have to do it.
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:31.519
That comes through in the book.
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:35.039
I think you can feel how uncomfortable you sit between those two ideas.
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:39.920
We have to do it because it is the language that the world speaks right now.
00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:41.119
It's money.
00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:42.720
Money, money, money.
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:46.400
And of course, you then have to express your ideas in that language.
00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:55.599
And to a certain degree, it makes sense because nature and the economics of biodiversity make a lot of sense, make a lot more sense than our current economic system.
00:28:55.759 --> 00:29:14.960
And I also love this idea of the bioeconomy that Brazil is pushing with the G20, where suddenly you the whole economic system is not no longer based on an extractive use of nature, but it's based on biodiversity and the abundance and diversity of our natural wealth.
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:16.880
I I like all that.
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:24.000
And yet there's a part of me that always feels when we talk about nature in monetary terms.
00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:42.799
I feel like somebody coming to me with a new study saying, you know, I calculated the value of your family, of your kids and of your wife, and they're they're worth millions to you because they'll save you, you know, they'll probably live longer, they save your insurance premium.
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:48.000
They and I would be like, yeah, that might be true, but what are you talking about?
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:51.519
This is irrelevant to me because this is my family.
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:56.960
You know, I would do anything for my family, and it's the same with nature.
00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:06.720
You we talk about nature in monetary terms, and at the same time, there's a much more profound connection that we have with nature and that we must have with nature.
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:08.480
But I think both can exist.
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:18.319
Of course, you you know, I also invest in the education of my kids, and I pay for insurance for my family because I do care about them, and these are all financial decisions.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.799
So I think we can do both, but nature is more than a line on our balance sheets.
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:24.240
Nature is our balance.
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:35.119
So we have to really understand that there's a deeper, more profound meaning to it, and then it's all right to speak about nature in monetary terms.
00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:47.920
It's um it's incredibly complex because um people who want to throw out the moral argument of um it's wrong to put a price on nature, nature's priceless.
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.079
We don't treat it as priceless, we treat it as worthless.
00:30:52.880 --> 00:31:09.039
And the way we need to communicate that in the language is to put a monetary value on it, and then if we get that right, if we recognize it's critical infrastructure, if we do have the imagination to imagine a restored world, then maybe we can say it's priceless.
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:11.440
Maybe we can respect it at that point.
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:20.480
But if we continue to fail to put a value on it, continue to treat it as an externality and move it away, we won't have the choice anymore because it'll all be gone.
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:22.240
I think that's right.
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:28.720
I think you have to have the balance about those two realities and they they can coexist.
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:38.960
And I I love, I mean, for example, what you do here is is amazing, and I'm uh really impressed with oxygen conservation's success so far.
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:55.519
I think you'll do amazingly well, and yet at the same time, part of your success will also be because nature is still declining, and of course, then it becomes more valuable because the ecosystem services of nature are more relevant than ever.
00:31:55.759 --> 00:32:00.799
So it is great for a company, but we need so much more for society as a whole.
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:07.680
We want nature to be abundant, diverse, and free as much as possible for people.
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:19.119
So I think this comes back to the public sector-private sector duality and why we need public-private partnerships for this, because we will only change this at scale.
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:25.599
And I, you know, I'd love for there to be a hundred oxygen conservations doing this all over the world and at much larger scale.
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:33.039
But even at that scale, it will not be enough without a massive public shift of subsidies.
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:44.799
Remember, we're outspending nature conservation and restoration about 30 times with harmful subsidies that are destroying nature and making the problem worse.
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:55.920
So it's like your house is on fire and you're trying to get a sort of bucket of water and get your neighbors together, and then the fire engine arrives and they spray gasoline on your house.
00:32:56.480 --> 00:33:02.240
Um, that's the current problem with fiscal policies and fiscal incentives.
00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:06.720
There has to be massive, massive reprogramming, which is a huge opportunity.
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:08.640
Never waste a good crisis.
00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:10.319
That is gonna be a theme.
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:11.599
That's gonna be a theme.
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:20.079
Um what you said about uh essentially the worse the climate gets, the worse nature gets, the better it is for my business.
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:21.359
I hate that.
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:26.640
I genuinely think that's probably the heaviest load I carry in terms of mentally about what we do.
00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:31.119
We did an event with the brilliant people at Foresight in the in the shard in London.
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:33.200
They've got um Richard and Rob there, fantastic.
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:34.559
They asked us to go speak with them.
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:46.480
Guy in the audience raised his hand and said, Well, this is this is all well and good, but when um uh when the climate gets worse, when weather patterns are destroying landscapes, all these assets you've bought will be worthless.
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:48.799
And I was like, I'm really sorry to break this to you.
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:57.039
It'll be worth a hell of a lot more because the ones that we have are more sustainable, are better managed, we'll keep more water in the environment, the soils will be more fertile.
00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:01.119
Actually, the worse everything else gets, the better our assets will be.
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:04.960
And literally, you could see him go, Yeah, you're right, you're right.
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:06.960
And and I don't want that to be the answer.
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:14.480
Um, what we're trying to do is it's kind of as you articulate, we want to create, we want to inspire imagination.
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:16.400
We want to show people what's possible.
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:24.239
That's why we have a podcast and we write and we publish and share it because we want to inspire the next generation, which I totally think are coming.
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:28.559
You spoke wonderfully at the start about all the challenges we're facing across the globe.
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:38.559
The thing that gives me optimism are the people like Penny who sat behind the camera and the amazing young people we have coming into the team who wouldn't have looked at the environment sector twice five years ago.
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:46.559
But now we are the coolest place in the UK you can work if you want to work on natural capital, on data, on tech, we're the place to be.
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:50.079
And the talent that's coming in now, I think they will save the world.
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:53.599
We just need to write big enough checks to allow them to do it.
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:54.880
I totally agree with that.
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:57.760
I mean, in Salesforce, we call them ecopreneurs.
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:00.000
And I mean, you're an ecopreneur as well, right?
00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:10.480
You make it your life's mission to solve these hard problems, and you take what all the amazing tools we have, including AI, and you make it a reality.
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:16.159
And that ecosystem of ecopreneurs is thriving worldwide.
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:18.159
We work with uh World Economic Forum.
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:19.440
There's a place called Uplink.
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:25.920
They have a network where they've now about 50,000 ecopreneurs are collected there.
00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:33.679
And the the WEF is very good at introducing people to opportunities and making sure they have the right technology.
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:43.519
So yeah, we I this is a big part of why I also love the the job at Salesforce, because that's there's a lot of funding that goes also into ecopreneurs.
00:35:43.679 --> 00:36:07.679
And um, in our hundred million tree effort, we we're now making a bit of a shift from mostly grants to NGOs, which were all successful and all good, but towards seeding a little bit more this for-profit nature restoration market, so that we can make what you do here more mainstream and make it more the norm.
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:15.840
Because I agree with you that um I think over time people will realize that this is not a luxury to do things this way.
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:32.320
It's actually the only way we can afford to keep a healthy agriculture, food production, agri-food system, and overall a healthy economy is this way of treating nature with more respect and a very different mindset.
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:34.800
You've been at Salesforce five years now?
00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:35.440
Four.
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:36.000
Four.
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:39.119
How has the business changed in those four years?
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:41.679
And how have you changed as a result of that?
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:44.800
Everything is now dominated by the rise of AI.
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:49.280
It's such a fast-paced and exciting time.
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:54.800
And when I joined four years ago, it wasn't really that was not really the main uh driver.
00:36:55.119 --> 00:37:07.920
Salesforce been using AI for over 10 years, and a lot of the lot of the predictive AI is actually fairly um, it's not very energy intensive, not very resource intensive.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:21.760
But the latest large language models and generative AI use a lot of computing power, and that's of course also where some of the environmental impacts from AI are negative on energy and on water.
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:28.639
How I've changed, I think I've I understand the private sector now much better.
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:44.559
I also understand much better how ideally there should be private public partnerships, how the private sector can be catalyzed into collective action, because there's enormous peer pressure and group pressure in the private sector.
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:50.079
You always, people, big companies in particular, always look around what are our peers doing?
00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:53.039
What is what is happening, and what are the trends?
00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:56.239
Few large companies want to be the first.
00:37:56.480 --> 00:37:59.199
Nobody wants to be the last of doing something.
00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:07.679
So if you can be among the first to set a new trend, and Salesforce is a place like that, you can pull a lot of companies with you.
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:19.119
So we're trying to do that with early adoption of TNFD and helping them to develop this leap framework with task force and nature-related financial disclosures.
00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:28.880
We're trying to do that with a voluntary carbon market, with things like the Symbiosis Coalition that we launched in 2024 with Meta, Microsoft, and Google.
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:39.360
And um, we've made a 20 million ton market signal that we will offtake 20 million tons of high-quality nature-based removals.
00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:42.000
Um give people an idea on scale with that.
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:47.519
So we have the biggest portfolio of voluntary carbon credits in the UK at 2 million tons.
00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:50.320
And you've collectively signaled 20 million.
00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:59.039
So that is an astonishing number and has the sort of ability, you know, some of the names there, including yourselves, they are creating the market through those types of signal.
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.440
And I think that's that's very important.
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:10.800
It's of course also a little bit too small, that pool of companies, and technology companies are a little bit special because our profit margins are so large.
00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:14.400
And there's basically there is the capital to do this at scale.
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:21.440
But I think every large company, every Fortune 500 company could do more, including engaging in the voluntary carbon market.
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:26.400
I I'm quite bullish on the voluntary carbon market again.
00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:28.480
Now it's gone up and down.
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:33.199
Um because of the laws of physics.
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:40.079
I'm I feel like the guy in the big short, I forget his name, but you know, he who keeps saying this, this is this can't work.
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:42.559
The math doesn't compute, right?
00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:51.440
So um, if you look at the physics of climate change, the carbon removal industry has to become one of the most important industries of the centuries.
00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:52.719
Just a necessity.
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:58.719
And markets are the most effective way of connecting and channeling capital.
00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:02.400
That's that's all the market or the basic function of a market.
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:16.719
So you put those things together, and there has to be a market, whether it's a voluntary market or compliance markets, but there has to be a market as part of climate action that channels money to where there's good projects and where there's good action.
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:18.480
So that is a necessity.
00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:19.679
It has to happen.
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:22.239
What makes a good project?
00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:25.440
That's a okay.
00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:26.800
How how long do I have for the answer?
00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:30.239
As long as you're like, I've got an answer too, but you can go first.
00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:33.039
What makes a good project?
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:41.199
The the short answer would be I know it when I see it, which is of course not very helpful, but um but let me explain that a little bit.
00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:54.719
When you see that there's improvements in biodiversity, you see that there's improvements in soil organic carbon, you see there's improvements in livelihoods of the people in and around the project, it's a great project.
00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:58.719
I so you can make it endlessly complicated.
00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:02.800
You can actually it and it's starting to become endlessly complicated.
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:08.800
There are now rating agencies that pre-rate before we even do our due diligence on carbon projects.
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:13.679
We had Tommy Ricketts, the founder of B Zero, on the podcast last week.
00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:14.000
Yeah.
00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:28.480
And I think the role they will play in creating a market is fundamental because lots of people don't have or won't want to have the finances, the technical expertise to make an objective assessment there.
00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:30.960
Um so I think they're so, so important.
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:34.719
He his podcast hasn't been released yet, but he was, oh, I suppose it will be by the time this goes out.
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:35.920
He was astonishing.
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:39.280
Um I I love your line, know it when you see it.
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:43.039
And I hadn't realized that's effectively what I've been telling people.
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:47.039
So whenever anyone asks about our projects, I say, come and see it.
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:53.519
And that that is the only answer because yes, we can talk about the verification and the monitoring.
00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:55.440
And, you know, we can do tons on AI.
00:41:55.519 --> 00:42:09.599
We we have got a proprietary method of individual tree-level visualization and scanning to measure carbon now, which um we were approached by one of the leading strategy consultants in the world that said, you have the best tech to do this on the planet.
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:12.159
But ultimately, come and see it.
00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:18.320
Come and see it, interact with it, understand what's happening on the ground, see the positive environmental and social impact.
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:20.800
And then, so we've been really fortunate.
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:25.760
We've broke the world record for the highest price received for woodland carbon at 125 a ton.
00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:27.920
And I don't think I've mentioned this one to you yet.
00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:40.480
We've just broke the world record for peatland at£100 a ton for the same principles, because every aspect of it is authentic and honest and optimized to do the right thing for people, wildlife and the environment.
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:42.880
Um, but you only know it if you see it.
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:44.159
That that's wonderful.
00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:51.840
And I I think it's important to remember that at least in the voluntary carbon market, that it is voluntary.
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:57.199
So, what we also as large companies, what we want to invest in are also good stories.
00:42:57.360 --> 00:42:59.360
And we don't want negative headlines.
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:07.920
If I go to our chief finance officer and I say, well, this is going to cost X million and all we get are negative headlines, they're gonna say, What?
00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:09.920
That doesn't make any sense.
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:19.519
Um, so we want good stories, we want stories that are powerful, that are of course accurate, that are true, that we that can build trust in the voluntary carbon market.
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:31.199
I think over time, though, the the V will drop from the VCM more and more because of that physical necessity that we have to build carbon markets at at scale.
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:34.000
And compliance markets are already much, much larger.
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:42.400
You know, the ET, the European trading scheme is already many orders of magnitude larger than the voluntary carbon market.
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:49.679
But where the VCM can play a really important role is in the research and development of exactly that.
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:50.800
What is a good project?
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:51.519
How does it work?
00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:52.800
How can it be scaled?
00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:54.719
What are the technologies that work?
00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:59.679
And Salesforce is an investor in Silvera, which is one of the other rating agencies, Calyx.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:00.880
Global is one.
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:12.559
We we work with with them with all of them to pre-rate our projects, but often it is that sort of we want to go and see the projects and want to really understand what is happening.
00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:20.320
I had the chance to visit Bombak in November when I was at COP30 for the climate summit in Belang in Brazil.
00:44:21.119 --> 00:44:23.920
And I was so impressed with what they're doing.
00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:41.920
So I to everybody out there who's a project developer and who has this drive to solve this defining challenge of our time in terms of climate change and biodiversity loss, um, I have a huge respect for everybody who does the work you do, the work that project developers all over the world do.
00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:43.519
Because it's not easy.
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:49.679
It's really a good project is not easy and it's um there's no blueprint.
00:44:49.760 --> 00:44:53.679
Like there's no every project is is in some ways different.
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:55.679
You can, of course, learn over time.
00:44:56.079 --> 00:44:58.639
But this is not yet a fully established industry.
00:44:58.719 --> 00:44:59.840
But we're we're getting there.
00:44:59.920 --> 00:45:13.599
And I hope also we'll have a sort of a nature industry association at some point globally that can lobby more for fiscal policy reform and those kinds of large public works projects that invest in nature at scale.
00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:20.159
Why I'm fascinated, and I and I want to borrow some of your positivity and optimism here.
00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:28.239
Why are you so I'm not sure if you're hopeful or confident, but which of those are you about the public-private partnership?
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:32.400
What gives you the hope or the confidence that they'll present?
00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:37.360
Well, they're actually talked about a lot.
00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:40.480
I'm not the only person who's talking about that, but there are very few that actually work.
00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:41.440
So that's my problem.
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:42.159
That's your problem.
00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:42.639
Yeah, I think.
00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:46.559
I've spent a lot of time in UK government and I just don't believe they're gonna do anything.
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:51.280
And especially when you when we look at things like concessional finance.
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:54.400
Everybody talks about concessional finance for these great projects.
00:45:54.559 --> 00:45:59.679
And but if you dig a little bit deeper, there's there's very of that actually existing.
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:07.280
It's like the gold dust um somewhere that that in some cases makes projects feasible.
00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:12.079
But we would need massive multi-billion dollar de-risking facilities.
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:19.119
We need massive early start, low or no interest capital for feasibility studies for projects.
00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:29.519
So I would love philanthropists to step in here more, family offices, big investors who can say, yeah, I'm I'm gonna, sure, if I get my money back, that's great.
00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:30.800
I don't need the interest.
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:34.559
Um, if I lose the money, then I've learned a lesson.
00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:38.559
Where are the philanthropists that that think like that?
00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:40.400
And and family offices.
00:46:40.639 --> 00:46:48.000
More and more family offices and unfortunately also multilateral development banks, they operate like commercial banks.
00:46:48.159 --> 00:46:52.559
They lend money, they expect very high rate of return.
00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:54.960
And I think that's not their role.
00:46:55.039 --> 00:46:59.199
At this point, we needed more daring, more bold role.
00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:08.719
But to come back to your point, why I'm confident, I think I learned that from Christiana Figueres and her global optimism.
00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:13.039
There's a saying by the economist Paul Romer, and I talk about that in the book.
00:47:13.119 --> 00:47:22.159
Um, that optimism is not something that happens to you based on data or what you know what you observe in the world.
00:47:22.239 --> 00:47:30.400
It's a mindset, not unconditional optimism, like a child waiting for presence, but conditional optimism.
00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:48.559
More like a child wanting to build a tree house and you know, walk running around and getting all their relatives and friends and parents to chip in and say, what if we get this and a few right tools, and suddenly something amazing happens because you believe that it happened?
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:52.960
I think we're now at this critical mass where there's enough amazing people.
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:55.360
You just spoke about the amazing talent you can attract.
00:47:55.519 --> 00:48:04.000
There's thousands of people now, tens of thousands, that are putting their minds to solve this issue.
00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:05.679
So I think it will be solved.
00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:08.320
I think we will have public-private partnerships.
00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:11.840
Have you um either heard of or met David Hill?
00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:18.880
He um he's essentially the the godfather or grandfather, sorry to aid you, uh, of BNG in this country.
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:20.880
So he's he's the reason it exists.
00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:29.599
He went across the US and studied their water mitigation markets, brought back the principles, and he he is the the father of BNG in the UK.
00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:33.440
And um he has a fact, and and he double-checked it after his podcast.
00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:39.760
There are more people employed in the natural capital space than there are in the steel industry in the US now.
00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:40.880
There you go.
00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:51.840
Which is so you can the the same is actually true for solar and wind on the energy side, is by far a larger share of the job market that is now in renewables than in um in fossil fuels.
00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:54.320
I I don't think the government are coming.
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:56.960
I don't think the governments are coming to help.
00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:00.079
I think it will be a private sector solved problem.
00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:05.840
But I hadn't realized this until you advocated so strongly for that public-private partnership.
00:49:06.559 --> 00:49:12.639
I think the role that used to be played by government will in the future be played by the AI companies.
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:16.559
I think they will be the ones that provide that level of funding.
00:49:16.719 --> 00:49:27.199
So um I I've written a few pieces that will will come out at some point about how the more digitally obsessed we become, the more reliant we are on nature.
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:38.239
Each of these massive data centers, they're called clouds, but they live in physical spaces that require cooling and carbon footprints and energy and all these real physical things.
00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:56.800
So, in a model whereby Anthropic, OpenAI, Microsoft, you guys, all the hyperscalers are going to be generating hundreds of billions of pounds of cash year on year with very little opportunity to deploy those into anything that diversifies what they do.
00:49:56.960 --> 00:50:00.079
So they could invest in more microchips or more data centers.
00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:15.920
But to invest in real assets at the scale at which they would need to to offer any form of diversification against the actual risks they face, climate, nature, space, their human talent and resource base, they're going to be the ones that will provide the funding to do that.
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:26.320
And they won't need the return on investment because, uh, and I hadn't thought about this until you articulated it, but the balancing effect is they will be swapping the return for the risk management that they need.
00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:28.400
It's an interesting hypothesis.
00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:31.599
First of all, I would not write off government just yet.
00:50:31.760 --> 00:50:35.920
I mean, we we see right now how much money there suddenly is when there's a conflict.
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:41.440
Um, we see how much money there is when there was a crisis like like COVID.
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:45.199
Don't forget that governments actually also make money.
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:46.159
They print money.
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:49.519
This is this is the one of the nice things about government.
00:50:49.679 --> 00:50:52.800
Of course, it has to be in balance so you don't fuel inflation.
00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:59.760
But governments can decide to um to borrow against that future return on impact.
00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:16.960
And I think at it at some point, if Germany or then maybe even Euro, Europe as a whole decides to issue euro bonds, um they can they can raise massive amounts of capital that are still um much, much larger than any profits of the air companies.
00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:20.400
Which country do you think is most likely to be the one that goes first?
00:51:20.639 --> 00:51:28.320
Who would be the one that said, you know what, we are gonna solve this, we are gonna make a big national level infrastructure investment in nature?
00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:30.880
Um there is a country that's already doing it.
00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:32.639
It's a large country, it's Brazil.
00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:48.719
Um if you look at what they do in terms of restructuring their portfolio of development bank lending, nature basically has unlimited um capital access at fairly low rates from BNDS from the Brazilian Development Bank.
00:51:48.960 --> 00:52:04.239
Um of course they also have existing infrastructure and oil and gas and others, but they are making that shift to the bioeconomy already, which is why I'm so keen to sort of support that bioeconomy narrative of Brazil in the G20.
00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:22.719
Because consider that if you think of subsidies that are going into fossil fuels or that are going into agriculture as usual, chemical agriculture, it's depending how you count it, it's sort of between five and seven trillion dollars per year, trillion.
00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:31.760
And there's no AI company that's sort of will sort of make that kind of not yet cash and turnaround.
00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:35.119
Somewhere Elon's going, watch this piece.
00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:52.239
There was a not that podcasts existed at the time, but if they had, we'd have been sat here having this conversation about railroad investment and then road investment, and we'd have been asking the philanthropists from the previous industrial revolution to be paying for stuff.
00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:52.559
Yeah.
00:52:52.719 --> 00:53:00.639
I think I'm just projecting and thinking, I I I think the philanthropists have of of certainly in the UK context in which I'm talking to, thank you.
00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:05.360
They've done the heavy lifting, they've funded the Wildlife Trust and the Rivers Trust and the National Trusts.
00:53:05.440 --> 00:53:05.760
Yeah.
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:06.960
They've done enough.
00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:13.119
I think for me, it's time that industry stepped up and and wrote its checks that it needs to, and businesses did.
00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:15.679
And I just I'm 42 years old.
00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:21.039
I've waited a lot of years for the government to give a damn about the environment, and each one's just not.
00:53:21.440 --> 00:53:27.360
And um, that's why my view is we'll try and push through quicker because otherwise.
00:53:27.679 --> 00:53:28.559
And I hope I'm wrong.
00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:46.320
I hope, I hope they do announce a big I think once the government sees that what you do and what others that are similar like-minded are doing, and that that is generating more profit, more livelihoods, better outcomes for local communities, for the environment, the government will shift and then they will support that.
00:53:46.480 --> 00:53:52.159
It's at the moment also it's a gap and it's a vacuum of lobbying as well.
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:57.519
Remember that there's very powerful vested interests that are lobbying that have vast amounts of money.
00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:08.239
Fossil fuel industry spending upwards of$200 million a year globally just on lobbying specific politicians and specific legislations.
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:13.519
That's there has to be a counterweight to that, that does that lobbying.
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:24.320
Um, and I think it's important we have we're more organized as the especially the nature restoration space in that sense that we can really lobby more effectively.
00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:27.920
Because I think we have we have science on our side.
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:30.000
There is a right and wrong side of history here.
00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:31.360
We're on the right side.
00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:33.840
We have the young people on our side.
00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:38.559
So, I mean, all of that does count in politics with with decision making in government.
00:54:38.719 --> 00:54:44.719
So, I mean, again, let's not write off governments because they do have an important role to play.
00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:47.679
They're just not playing it at the moment, but they they will eventually.
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:48.880
I do agree.
00:54:49.119 --> 00:54:57.920
Um, there's a guy called Benedict McDonald, who runs a company called Restore, who are who are at the leading edge of um the ecological side of restoration.
00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:00.480
He's a beautiful author too.
00:55:00.639 --> 00:55:03.599
Uh, he advocates for the exact same thing that you just articulated.
00:55:03.679 --> 00:55:19.440
He's like, um, he he is in awe in the worst possible way with the lobbying power of the NFU and farmers, and he's just constantly demanding the sector come together from a natural capital perspective and try and organise and communicate in the same way.
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:34.800
We actually had Tom Bradshaw, the president of the NFU, on the podcast, an incredibly impressive man, an incredibly uh educated and eloquent macroeconomist in terms of how he thought about the flows in and out of the country of capital.
00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:36.800
Um, and they are seriously organized.
00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:47.360
One of the brave things I think you did in your book was really call out how agriculture and and farmers are held in a completely unique perspective from other professionals.
00:55:47.599 --> 00:55:51.280
Um, did you think twice about including that perspective in the book?
00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:52.719
I I did.
00:55:52.800 --> 00:55:57.440
I also have to say that since we bought a farm, um you've decided farmers are right.
00:55:57.760 --> 00:56:01.679
My my respect for anybody who's a farmer has grown by leaps and bounds.
00:56:01.840 --> 00:56:14.159
This is a really it's not only very hard physically, it's very demanding, but you have to be, you have to know so much about climate, the weather, tax regulations, botany, chemistry.
00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:17.679
It's it it's farmers are amazing.
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:23.039
Accounting, economic work, documentation, regulation, accounting.
00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:24.960
Huge respect for everybody who's a farmer.
00:56:25.039 --> 00:56:31.199
I think they should be a revered profession, just like teachers and you know, professions that really shape our society.
00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:33.920
And that's of course at the moment not the case.
00:56:34.079 --> 00:56:35.840
They're between a rock and a hard place.
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:58.239
Most farmers want to do better by the environment, they want to do um the right thing, but they're just caught in this um in this economic conundrum where they have to have to rely so much on external pesticides and inputs and um and fertilizers that eat up all their profits.
00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:04.000
So I think getting out of that will take an initial infusion of cash.
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:12.239
And on our farm, it's you know, we I subsidize the farm with my day job, but not everybody can do that.
00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:24.960
So that is again an important role where we have to the$40 billion that Europe spends per year on the common agricultural policy, or it's even more now, reprogram that slightly.
00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:25.679
And it's happening.
00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:31.760
You know, I'm again coming back to my optimistic view of that governments will eventually have to do the right thing.
00:57:32.079 --> 00:57:37.840
We can reprogram part of that so it can restructure, it can restructure agriculture.
00:57:38.480 --> 00:57:39.199
Really interesting.
00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:48.000
You you tell a story about um a neighbor's use of pesticides on on their land and the potential knock-on effects of next door.
00:57:48.239 --> 00:57:51.119
Um we we said that across across the country.
00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:53.679
And um Do you think that's an education issue?
00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:57.119
Do you think it's a an awareness issue, a social issue?
00:57:57.280 --> 00:58:02.639
Why do you think we still have those people who don't consider the knock-on effect of those activities?
00:58:04.800 --> 00:58:05.519
It's a good question.
00:58:05.679 --> 00:58:17.360
In our case, it was really obvious because the field where the those there were potatoes last year, this year, we're we're not sure yet what they're gonna have, but it's right where our borehole is, where our drinking water comes from.
00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:24.000
So we have a really clear um interest in seeing what is happening with that field.
00:58:24.079 --> 00:58:30.480
And um, so that makes it really drastically visible for us, but the same exists for everybody.
00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:41.599
Pesticide runoff is uh threatening drinking water in a lot of and nitrate and other runoff in a lot of countries, including in the UK.
00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:50.159
So think about we we need to think about more where does our food come from, where does our water come from, what decides its quality?
00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:53.840
It's part of that ecological literacy that I call for in the book.
00:58:53.920 --> 00:59:03.440
I don't have an easy answer how to change that, but I think what I've learned about farmers is that the most powerful way to spread an idea is to show that it works.
00:59:03.599 --> 00:59:16.159
And once you show that it works, farmers will do, even if it sounds crazy or it's uh it's a novel idea, they will do it if they see it worse, if they see it it it works.
00:59:16.719 --> 00:59:21.519
It's why um we have a lot of open days community events.
00:59:22.159 --> 00:59:25.599
I I often get asked, what would you tell the neighboring farmer to do?
00:59:25.840 --> 00:59:26.960
My answer is nothing.
00:59:27.360 --> 00:59:28.400
It's their land.
00:59:28.559 --> 00:59:31.599
You know, what I will say is if you're interested, come and take a look.
00:59:31.679 --> 00:59:32.880
You're very welcome.
00:59:33.039 --> 00:59:40.719
I think farmers are uh from the conversations we've had, they're fed up of being patronized, lectured, and lied to.
00:59:40.880 --> 00:59:47.039
That was one thing I agreed with Tom that farmers have spent decades being promised X and it never appearing.
00:59:47.199 --> 00:59:49.679
But there's no wonder that they're told to change everything.
00:59:49.760 --> 00:59:51.360
As soon as they retool, they change.
00:59:51.440 --> 00:59:54.320
And it's not like a line of code, you can't rewrite it in seconds.
00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:58.400
You need seasons and years and sometimes generations to change things on a farm.
00:59:58.480 --> 00:59:58.639
Yeah.
00:59:58.719 --> 01:00:02.320
I agree with you, it's an incredibly difficult, challenging profession.
01:00:02.559 --> 01:00:14.960
I I think I think in the UK, the food security angle is overplayed and used as a reason to make sure we don't change some of the subsidy practices we have, uh, as much although we have starting to see some of those come into fruition now.
01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:18.159
Um, nature markets do offer something exciting, though.
01:00:18.320 --> 01:00:27.920
I I think BNG especially is something that for the first time does offer land-owning farmers and families a route to diversify in a way that can provide an economic return.
01:00:28.159 --> 01:00:28.800
Yeah.
01:00:29.119 --> 01:00:38.639
Yeah, I think nature markets and um also the carbon markets are are a promising route to diversify farm income.
01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:47.920
I think that the the carbon markets were of course trying to do what we can at Salesforce to stimulate that market further.
01:00:48.400 --> 01:00:59.360
It is, um, I think it it will grow, but ideally, I would I don't want to have a carbon credit here and a nature credit there and a water credit there.
01:00:59.519 --> 01:01:12.239
Um, I would like to have one good outcome environmental certificate that does all of the above because a good project and a good nature-based carbon project does all of that.
01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:15.039
Of course, we we also invest in technology projects.
01:01:15.199 --> 01:01:22.800
Salesforce also has made a$100 million carbon dioxide removal commitment with the First Movers Coalition.
01:01:22.880 --> 01:01:30.880
So we also invest in enhanced rock weathering and even direct air capture, all those things that are on the technology side.
01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:41.760
What sometimes upsets me in the in the VCM is this confrontation between the technologists and especially the techno-optimists and the and the nature circles.
01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:46.719
There is there's too much infighting in our in our circle.
01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:55.039
I think that debate between technology carbon credits and nature carbon credits is definitely overplayed.
01:01:55.360 --> 01:02:01.920
We need, of course, durable solutions, but we need a portfolio of solutions that work right now and that includes nature.
01:02:02.079 --> 01:02:05.920
We need the massive co-benefits of nature carbon projects.
01:02:06.239 --> 01:02:15.360
We need ecosystem restoration at massive scale, which will be durable, and we also need more investments in technology.
01:02:15.519 --> 01:02:21.119
So to me, it's it's an either, it's not an either-or, it's an uh and to all of the above.
01:02:21.199 --> 01:02:24.000
And and it's about a portfolio of approaches.
01:02:24.159 --> 01:02:25.440
That's how we approach the VCM.
01:02:25.599 --> 01:02:26.239
I absolutely agree.
01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:38.000
So um I I don't think we can solve for the climate without some form of technological solution or to some scrubbing technology that does mechanically extract carbon from the atmosphere.
01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:48.559
Well, I I love the stuff climb works and people are doing, but even even their portfolio is now pairing the technological advancements with a nature product as well, sit alongside of it.
01:02:48.719 --> 01:02:56.719
Because once we do fix that technology, I would still like a planet to live on that we can enjoy in the nature parts of what's there.
01:02:57.039 --> 01:03:00.960
When you think about the nature side of things, so you mentioned water and biodiversity.
01:03:01.119 --> 01:03:06.239
What are some of the emergent areas that you think we might see us go to next in terms of those markets?
01:03:09.679 --> 01:03:14.800
I think the voluntary market is small, as I already said.
01:03:14.880 --> 01:03:18.159
It's also a little bit fatigued on the company and buyer side.
01:03:18.239 --> 01:03:24.159
I sometimes ask myself the questions, where is everybody when I'm when we're on panels or I mentioned symbiosis?
01:03:24.719 --> 01:03:25.440
Always the same faces.
01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:28.159
It's always the same faces, very limited number of companies.
01:03:28.239 --> 01:03:29.760
So where where is everybody?
01:03:29.920 --> 01:03:39.519
There's a bit of fatigue um in investing because there's because the market tends to be complicated and it used to be intransparent.
01:03:39.679 --> 01:03:40.639
That has all improved.
01:03:40.880 --> 01:03:50.480
You said earlier it should be as easy as sort of ordering something online, and you get a carbon credit that you know is is of high quality.
01:03:50.639 --> 01:03:53.280
Um, and if it isn't, you can give it back.
01:03:53.440 --> 01:03:59.599
Um, so that that complexity we solved for for the carbon market.
01:04:00.159 --> 01:04:08.159
Now I see there's nature credits, there's water credits, but to me, that's a little bit as a corporate buyer.
01:04:08.320 --> 01:04:24.719
That is um that's a little bit hard to explain to our chief finance officer who bought into the carbon credits because it is part of our overall climate um action plan and climate transition plan.
01:04:24.960 --> 01:04:35.840
But um making that same argument again for different credits for almost the same thing, if it's if you look at the projects that produce them is uh is almost impossible.
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:42.800
So I think it's really important to merge and combine those into multiple outcome credits.
01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:56.400
The the c the compliance markets might take a different turn again, because governments might decide we want nature, water, and carbon in one bundled credit.
01:04:56.559 --> 01:04:58.559
I think that would be a great way forward.
01:04:58.719 --> 01:05:05.840
I don't think that will come from necessarily from corporate buyers, though, because we we still have whiplash from the carbon market.
01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:11.039
Now that the carbon market is much more transparent, it's much better, it's much improved.
01:05:12.079 --> 01:05:22.159
We we first have to get lots more companies into the VCM before I think we can branch out into nature and water.
01:05:22.559 --> 01:05:25.920
Is there anything the developers like us can do to help in that process?
01:05:28.239 --> 01:05:38.320
I think the good start is to is to demonstrate well what the co-benefits are through storytelling, through measurements, through biodiversity surveys.
01:05:38.480 --> 01:05:47.360
Um there's of course amazing advances also with with biodiversity monitoring, with e DNA, with bioacoustics, with AI driven.
01:05:47.519 --> 01:05:52.400
I I even heard about we don't have one on our farm yet because I think they're also quite expensive still.
01:05:52.559 --> 01:05:59.760
But there's uh soil biodiversity acoustic monitoring, where you basically have AI help you with.
01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:08.639
Interpreting the changes in soil acoustics based on this on soil biodiversity, which is is is is amazing.
01:06:08.719 --> 01:06:11.039
So you have I've heard the factory stuff.
01:06:11.119 --> 01:06:15.440
So the smell like being able to AI smell the soil to get organic content in it.
01:06:15.519 --> 01:06:15.679
Yeah.
01:06:15.920 --> 01:06:16.400
That's interesting.
01:06:16.880 --> 01:06:18.079
It is interesting.
01:06:18.400 --> 01:06:31.280
And um I think the the other thing that project developers can do, and you're already doing that, is to just bring down the costs of development and monitoring, but also project design.
01:06:31.840 --> 01:06:35.119
AI can can potentially help there.
01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:38.559
We have a project with um conservation organization called RAIR.
01:06:38.960 --> 01:06:43.840
And in Colombia, they've designed a they call it Argentiera.
01:06:43.920 --> 01:07:04.159
It's then they've designed an AI agent that works through WhatsApp with thousands of farmers, gives them updated information about what of about behavior change nudges, and it's like a source of information for all the smallholder farmers that are in a certain area, how to collectively restore and manage their land.
01:07:04.320 --> 01:07:21.920
If you think about smallholder farming areas where it's not one large land holding, but it's hundreds of thousands of farmers, a lot of the transaction costs for a project would go into those discussions, keeping everybody informed all the time, getting feedback from everybody, processing it in real time.
01:07:22.239 --> 01:07:23.760
AI is great at that.
01:07:23.920 --> 01:07:26.559
You can do that at a fraction of the cost.
01:07:27.360 --> 01:07:33.360
I think that that's one of the most exciting things that it just speeds up the force multiplier.
01:07:33.519 --> 01:07:36.719
You allow you to engage much faster at a lower price point.
01:07:37.039 --> 01:07:40.960
AI's been a theme that's kind of run through lots of our conversation today.
01:07:41.760 --> 01:07:46.960
On the day-to-day parts of what you do, how has that changed as a result of AI being in the business?
01:07:48.480 --> 01:07:51.199
Well, I use AI a lot more than I did a few years ago.
01:07:51.360 --> 01:07:54.400
We run a lot of our internal processes now.
01:07:54.559 --> 01:08:05.280
Um Slack is our tool of choice, and we have SlackBot is now basically my employee um number one.
01:08:05.360 --> 01:08:08.159
I don't know, was chief of staff or what you want to call it, but Slackbot.
01:08:08.480 --> 01:08:12.880
What um so so with that, I have a sort of mechanism of measuring that.
01:08:13.039 --> 01:08:24.399
If you had to pay employee number one, so you could have a person or you but you would lose your Slack employee number one, what's the value person you would need to hire to lose that AI employee right now?
01:08:24.640 --> 01:08:29.199
Oh, I would I would need to hire a lot of people because it it has very different skill sets.
01:08:29.359 --> 01:08:37.680
I ask Slackbot before I have a meeting, what are our last interactions with this customer or this stakeholder or this NGO?
01:08:37.840 --> 01:08:42.880
And what are their what are their pain points that we know of?
01:08:42.960 --> 01:08:44.159
How can we help them?
01:08:44.399 --> 01:08:51.760
Um then I sometimes ask it to do talking points for me, or I ask it to look into event organization.
01:08:51.920 --> 01:08:54.319
I mean, these are all different skill sets.
01:08:54.399 --> 01:08:54.479
Yeah.
01:08:54.640 --> 01:08:56.560
And Slackbot does does all of that.
01:08:56.880 --> 01:09:05.359
Have you had a um you had one of those moments where you're like, oh my god, and you can see the sheer scale and the future of what AI could bring?
01:09:05.680 --> 01:09:12.079
I'm I'm I'm I've had a few of those, and I'm having them uh repeatedly again.
01:09:12.319 --> 01:09:21.840
One of them was recently when, and now there's a music feature on Gemini, but um that you could actually generate songs um is a relatively new thing.
01:09:22.000 --> 01:09:30.640
We go on Spotify now, and all a lot of songs from 2026, 25 are AI generated or with support of AI, which I don't think is great, by the way.
01:09:30.720 --> 01:09:36.880
I think there's you know a role for human human um music.
01:09:37.039 --> 01:09:38.079
It should be labeled.
01:09:38.239 --> 01:09:44.479
I think you should, as a consumer, you should be able to know is this AI or is this sort of mostly human generated?
01:09:44.720 --> 01:09:56.880
Of course, but I had this aha moment when this was just a few months ago, when um at the time I did not know Sono.com is the DJ sound generating app.
01:09:56.960 --> 01:10:05.439
But my brother is a part-time DJ, and he in five minutes he just said, Well, you're going to the Salesforce team meeting of your sustainability team.
01:10:06.000 --> 01:10:07.520
Let's write a song about that.
01:10:07.680 --> 01:10:14.159
So we uploaded our stakeholder impact report, and um he said, you know, what do world beat?
01:10:14.319 --> 01:10:21.600
And and in in a few minutes, I had a song about our sustainability team and how we measured our targets.
01:10:21.760 --> 01:10:24.399
It was super funny, and we played it at the retreat.
01:10:24.720 --> 01:10:27.119
But now that's you can do that on Gemini.
01:10:27.279 --> 01:10:31.199
Now every but I was like, wow, this is this is amazing.
01:10:31.359 --> 01:10:36.880
And I'm having these wow, this is amazing kind of moments, uh, quite often with AI.
01:10:37.119 --> 01:10:44.000
I um I we've been so my PhD's big data systems and environmental stuff.
01:10:44.239 --> 01:10:48.720
In fact, um, so we're going across to San Francisco Climate Week at uh the end of April.
01:10:48.880 --> 01:10:49.279
Nice.
01:10:49.680 --> 01:10:56.159
Twenty years ago, I was in the middle of my PhD and I was captain in the Great Britain American football team in the US.
01:10:56.479 --> 01:11:05.520
And within that same year period, uh Google IPO'd, YouTube launched, Facebook launched, Amazon started for the first time.
01:11:05.760 --> 01:11:12.399
Like literally, that's uh OC wouldn't exist without that trip because I knew nothing about business when I went across there.
01:11:12.640 --> 01:11:15.760
First person in my family to finish school, never mind, go to college.
01:11:15.920 --> 01:11:20.479
And all of a sudden I went to the US and I was like, oh my God, this is amazing.
01:11:20.720 --> 01:11:27.279
These small teams of people, exactly at the same point in their life as I was, coming out of uni, were ready to start these businesses.
01:11:27.359 --> 01:11:32.880
And that sort of tech startup data-based approach has been our DNA throughout everything we're doing.
01:11:32.960 --> 01:11:53.439
So I'm going back to do that now, but as a result of that, AI's been a feature of what we were doing from like the earliest models of um we literally, the model we've built internally to evaluate acquisition opportunities is called Claudia because it's a supermodel and we can show Claudia existed 18 months before Claude did.
01:11:53.680 --> 01:11:55.840
We literally had a Claudia before Claude.
01:11:56.079 --> 01:11:58.000
Um so it's it's super, super exciting.
01:11:58.079 --> 01:12:01.600
But I I like your point about regular moments of oh my word.
01:12:01.760 --> 01:12:10.479
I remember one probably early January, it was my first encounter with like the latest iteration of Claude just before co-work dropped.
01:12:10.640 --> 01:12:13.680
And I traveled somewhere early, woke up at 6 a.m.
01:12:13.840 --> 01:12:18.720
I'm sat in a coffee shop, and just had a moment of oh my god, I can see where this is going.
01:12:18.800 --> 01:12:22.720
It is a level of speed and specialism that it just changes everything.
01:12:22.880 --> 01:12:34.640
And I pulled the entire team in and went, no, no, no, whatever we thought we had before, we've got to go again now, because fundamentally the speed and the way we can do everything has changed dramatically.
01:12:34.800 --> 01:12:36.239
Um and I'm super, super excited.
01:12:36.479 --> 01:12:43.039
I think what this what at the same time this shows though is that the quality of the human interaction becomes much more important.
01:12:43.359 --> 01:12:52.960
So the because when everything is possible, what or whom do you still trust becomes the becomes one of the most important questions.
01:12:53.279 --> 01:13:01.760
So that question of what is responsible trusted AI mean is really important.
01:13:01.840 --> 01:13:10.720
And I think it will still mean that you have companies, groups of people, peers that you you trust, you work with.
01:13:11.119 --> 01:13:21.359
I don't think that you know we're all gonna be vibe coded out of existence uh as AI or companies or software companies.
01:13:21.600 --> 01:13:27.680
I think there's that element of trust, especially when it comes to corporate data, will become more important, not less important.
01:13:27.920 --> 01:13:30.560
I think it'll create more jobs than it loses.
01:13:30.880 --> 01:13:36.720
I think every time we've seen we're sat on a podcast right now that employs people.
01:13:37.119 --> 01:13:40.079
Ten years ago, that of 15, that wouldn't have been a concept.
01:13:40.319 --> 01:13:43.600
Now, has that had knock-on effects on the television industry and radio?
01:13:43.920 --> 01:13:49.039
Yes, it has, but YouTube as a whole production base and everything that's associated with that.
01:13:49.359 --> 01:13:52.079
Um uh I can't remember the book that it was in.
01:13:52.399 --> 01:13:54.800
Uh I don't think it was yours.
01:13:55.119 --> 01:14:01.760
The um the first ever uh picketed um protest in New York.
01:14:02.239 --> 01:14:03.199
Are you familiar with this?
01:14:03.279 --> 01:14:04.079
What it was about?
01:14:04.479 --> 01:14:09.680
It was when humans were being replaced by horses for pulling fire engines.
01:14:09.840 --> 01:14:10.079
Yes.
01:14:10.239 --> 01:14:16.399
Yeah, so every and then there was the next process when horses were replaced by actual engines and progress.
01:14:16.560 --> 01:14:17.279
We will always see those.
01:14:17.760 --> 01:14:25.840
I think that that um that observation that technology always creates more jobs and risk disruptions.
01:14:25.920 --> 01:14:27.760
Uh I think that's held true in the past.
01:14:27.920 --> 01:14:36.159
With AI, of course, what is new, and we have to recognize that is that uh a lot of knowledge-based jobs are under pressure at the same time.
01:14:36.319 --> 01:14:40.319
Usually it used to be one industry at a time, it used to be one sector.
01:14:40.560 --> 01:14:41.680
Right basic media.
01:14:42.239 --> 01:14:42.399
Yeah.
01:14:42.560 --> 01:14:53.680
Now it's uh it's it's lawyers, teachers, it's you know, it's the whole all the range of all knowledge-based professions are being transformed.
01:14:53.840 --> 01:15:00.560
But it's I I agree with you that over time this will be this will be positive if we all lean in.
01:15:00.720 --> 01:15:05.199
My main pet sort of topic on AI is that we all have to lean in.
01:15:05.279 --> 01:15:08.000
Because AI is like a giant mirror of humankind.
01:15:08.159 --> 01:15:15.920
AI is more about AI is the discovery of how humanity thinks, not what we think, of how we think.
01:15:17.119 --> 01:15:22.640
If only a few people look into that mirror, it's gonna show that image.
01:15:22.880 --> 01:15:30.399
We all have to look in and we all have to look in with good intention and looking for the good parts in it, and then we will see a positive reflection.
01:15:30.800 --> 01:15:34.159
There's there's 80 million people in the UK, roughly.
01:15:34.399 --> 01:15:37.439
Uh, I looked at the stats yesterday morning.
01:15:37.760 --> 01:15:41.760
How many people do you think regularly use AI of that 80 million?
01:15:42.079 --> 01:15:43.199
I have no idea, honestly.
01:15:43.600 --> 01:15:44.640
10 million.
01:15:45.119 --> 01:15:49.520
Well, that's that's actually and do they know that they use AI regularly?
01:15:49.600 --> 01:15:50.560
Is it based on service?
01:15:51.439 --> 01:15:55.680
I think that's because I think a lot more actually use AI every day without knowing it.
01:15:56.000 --> 01:16:07.119
Yeah, I I I think I thought it was more than it was a checkpoint of oh no no, I live in this bubble of high-performing, like super, super talented young people.
01:16:07.520 --> 01:16:19.520
It's it's very widespread and mainstream, but at the moment it's also it's it's used a lot for gimmicky stuff, you know, and and and and I think that's that's that's a bit of a problem because there's a lot of energy that goes into these.
01:16:19.840 --> 01:16:26.319
How how much do you think from a concerning perspective about the energy and the water footprint?
01:16:27.279 --> 01:16:30.720
So we have this three-pillared strategy on AI sustainability.
01:16:30.800 --> 01:16:51.920
And the the first one is smart demand, that obviously AI is like the invention, let's let's say it's it's like the invention of the airplane, and suddenly everybody thinks, you know, oh, I need an airplane to go down to the post office now, and I'm gonna build an airplane, and so it saves me three minutes going down to the post office.
01:16:52.239 --> 01:16:53.920
But you don't need an airplane.
01:16:54.079 --> 01:17:00.399
Um, you don't need to a huge LLM for most tasks that corporations have, even people have.
01:17:00.800 --> 01:17:03.920
And the second pillar is efficiencies.
01:17:04.079 --> 01:17:10.800
Of course, efficiency gains can be eaten up by Jevin's paradox, you know, that things become more efficient, they become cheaper, people use more.
01:17:12.159 --> 01:17:15.840
And therefore, it has to be coupled with smart demand.
01:17:15.920 --> 01:17:20.800
We have to sort of limit what we actually use AI for and which models we use.
01:17:21.119 --> 01:17:23.039
And the third pillar is clean supply.
01:17:23.119 --> 01:17:27.760
This is to your question: what do we do about the energy and the water footprint?
01:17:28.079 --> 01:17:43.199
So on the clean supply, we have a large opportunity and responsibility as a major customer of AWS and Google and others to ensure the way they run their data centers is in line with what we want to see.
01:17:43.359 --> 01:17:53.279
Only renewable energy, very low water footprint, move to move away from water-based cooling as as much as possible if it's energy equivalent.
01:17:54.159 --> 01:18:02.239
Um so yeah, it's it's a lot on our minds, but I I honestly I it's messy and it's so fast evolving, and nobody's got it all figured out.
01:18:02.319 --> 01:18:08.399
It's not a it's not a clear case where we can say, yes, this will we'll have that under control.
01:18:09.600 --> 01:18:10.720
I it's so interesting.
01:18:10.880 --> 01:18:17.279
I think you're far more optimistic about governments than I am, and I'm far more optimistic about AI and hyperscalers.
01:18:17.520 --> 01:18:20.479
I um I think it's because they haven't disappointed me yet.
01:18:20.640 --> 01:18:21.439
Um yet.
01:18:21.760 --> 01:18:36.960
Uh I I honestly believe the speed of change, the speed of growth, the potential, the imagination, although electronic, and the capital that will be developed will have a net positive gain on the environment and on the planet.
01:18:37.199 --> 01:18:38.399
I think they will need to.
01:18:38.640 --> 01:18:44.239
But the social license to you look at the sort of sentiment surveys around AI in the US already now.
01:18:44.319 --> 01:18:46.880
Yeah, so many people are like, whoa, we're not happy about it.
01:18:47.279 --> 01:18:48.319
They will need that.
01:18:48.560 --> 01:18:57.840
That goes into, and I haven't had this conversation with Microsoft in this way, but you know, they've bought in excess of 80 million tons solo in terms of carbon credits now.
01:18:58.000 --> 01:19:04.000
Their hypothesis must be that is the requirement of a social license to operate in the future.
01:19:04.239 --> 01:19:09.520
Ergo, if they get ahead of time, they will be the people who are allowed to and able to operate in that regard.
01:19:09.680 --> 01:19:11.039
And I think it will come.
01:19:11.119 --> 01:19:17.279
And I think the more digital the world becomes, the more reliant and the more special, the more unique our relationship with nature will be.
01:19:17.600 --> 01:19:18.960
Yeah, I think you're totally right.
01:19:19.039 --> 01:19:28.319
I would just add to what you say that this will happen and will have a net positive benefit if we all now lean in and structure it in that way.
01:19:28.399 --> 01:19:31.119
Because there's many decisions now that need to be taken.
01:19:31.279 --> 01:19:34.319
And also from I mentioned our 100 million tree program.
01:19:34.560 --> 01:19:38.239
We are now at 65 million trees that we planted.
01:19:38.560 --> 01:19:40.079
It's a staggering number.
01:19:40.720 --> 01:19:42.000
35 million to go.
01:19:42.159 --> 01:19:43.920
It's yeah, it's it's it's a lot of trees.
01:19:44.079 --> 01:19:46.000
Um we learned a lot along the way, by the way.
01:19:46.079 --> 01:19:51.119
I also talk about that a little bit in the book and one project that didn't go so well, but most of them did.
01:19:51.520 --> 01:20:01.119
I um and we've now restructured where we plant those trees or restore forest ecosystems as we prefer to talk about it, more holistic approach.
01:20:01.359 --> 01:20:12.319
We focus all of that on the main water basins and watersheds where we have water dependencies, either because of data center locations, main office buildings, office towers.
01:20:12.640 --> 01:20:19.439
So we also clearly see we have to invest where we also benefit from nature and from those ecosystem services.
01:20:19.680 --> 01:20:27.199
So I think we we you're right that it will, it can have net positive benefits, but we all need to lean in.
01:20:27.279 --> 01:20:41.119
And one of the focus areas we have at the moment is also that many NGOs don't have the kind of capacity and skills and no chief technology officer, no budget for large IT investments.
01:20:42.800 --> 01:20:51.439
All those NGOs also should use the positive benefits AI to make their work more efficient, to make them more powerful, more effective.
01:20:51.680 --> 01:21:04.800
So that's been one of our focus areas in the past few years to ensure that there's NGO capacity that also can use this for nature, for humanitarian aid, for climate action, for education.
01:21:04.960 --> 01:21:13.439
Um, and that's that's the very popular program we run called the AI Accelerator for agents for impact for NGOs.
01:21:13.680 --> 01:21:22.159
Gives them a cash grant and then some pro bono support, some free technology to build up this Argentiera with Rare, for example.
01:21:22.399 --> 01:21:31.439
Um, another example is Forest Stewardship Council now runs a lot of their very complicated forest certification processes on an AI agent.
01:21:31.600 --> 01:21:39.119
Um, we work with um with the Ocean Risk and Resilience Action Alliance.
01:21:39.199 --> 01:21:47.760
They have something called the Octopus Desk that links ocean investment projects with investors, and that's a that's an AI agent that will run that.
01:21:48.000 --> 01:21:52.319
So I think there's a lot of things that NGOs can use this for, but normally they can't afford the technology.
01:21:52.399 --> 01:21:57.920
They don't know how to have the people to and the knowledge because they're all working in the tech industry.
01:21:58.000 --> 01:21:59.600
Um getting paid large numbers.
01:22:01.039 --> 01:22:02.000
Getting paid more.
01:22:02.159 --> 01:22:09.119
Um, so I think we need to balance that and and make sure that that's that AI is more democratized in that way.
01:22:11.600 --> 01:22:13.359
And if that happens, I think you're right.
01:22:13.439 --> 01:22:15.039
I think we'll we'll get there.
01:22:15.279 --> 01:22:29.920
I I I love the um the breadth of interventions you guys are working across because there's some direct projects, there is some more of the philanthropic side of stuff, there's this social, there's the cultural aspects of it, there's the and geographically you're working across the globe as well.
01:22:30.079 --> 01:22:38.640
You you mentioned about the sort of um almost you maybe don't use this language, but like the venture-style investments you're making, the sort of more commercial ones.
01:22:38.880 --> 01:22:42.239
Um we're literally just about to launch our own program of that.
01:22:42.319 --> 01:22:56.800
So I was always of a view that we wanted to get to a scale where we could attract institutional capital because if we're a unicorn company and we're managing billions of assets under management, the stimulus effect we would have on local supply change.
01:22:57.039 --> 01:22:58.159
We couldn't do it without.
01:22:58.239 --> 01:22:59.199
It's a necessity.
01:22:59.840 --> 01:23:00.720
It has to come.
01:23:00.880 --> 01:23:04.399
Um, a bit like your point about carbon markets, they just have to be a thing.
01:23:04.640 --> 01:23:06.800
Um, but we need it to come faster.
01:23:06.880 --> 01:23:11.760
So at the moment, we've got four of the biggest restoration projects occurring in the entire of Scotland.
01:23:11.920 --> 01:23:21.920
We are using the entire supply chain of Peatland restoration experts to the point whereby the contractors we're working with are having to train people live time on the jobs.
01:23:22.079 --> 01:23:24.560
So we're launching our auction accelerator program.
01:23:24.720 --> 01:23:35.600
So around each of the estates, we are saying we have capital, we have literal living laboratories, we have space, we have an amazing array of technical experts that can help mentor and support you.
01:23:35.840 --> 01:23:39.520
Come along, present your ideas, help us support and incubate those.
01:23:39.680 --> 01:23:44.399
And I didn't think we were going to do that, but actually, we need the supply chain to scale at such a pace.
01:23:44.479 --> 01:23:45.920
We're starting to do that this year.
01:23:46.000 --> 01:23:57.199
So we've made our first investment into a herbivore management company, some experts in terms of deer management and goat, which are presenting significant threats to natural regeneration habitats up there.
01:23:57.359 --> 01:24:08.399
We're also talking to a specialist now who's pitched his idea that um small-scale local improvements in individual properties from an environmental and a sustainability perspective.
01:24:08.640 --> 01:24:12.960
So, not renewable energy per se, but what can you do at the fabric of an individual property?
01:24:13.119 --> 01:24:19.359
And these are in very uh rugged rural environments where you know a one size fits all doesn't work anywhere.
01:24:19.520 --> 01:24:20.720
These properties are historic.
01:24:20.800 --> 01:24:26.399
So by the time your podcast release, we'll probably have released that program calling for people to apply for it.
01:24:26.640 --> 01:24:31.760
I think there's there's an asymmetry there of there's so much talent and potential in these rural communities.
01:24:31.920 --> 01:24:34.399
But actually, most of the focus still remains in cities.
01:24:34.479 --> 01:24:37.600
So if we can help unlock some of that, it would be amazing.
01:24:38.079 --> 01:24:39.279
Yeah, yeah, fully agree.
01:24:39.359 --> 01:24:40.880
And it's wonderful that you're doing all that.
01:24:40.960 --> 01:24:42.159
I actually didn't know that.
01:24:42.239 --> 01:24:44.000
Um we haven't talked about it publicly yet.
01:24:44.079 --> 01:24:47.039
It's really, it's really new, so that'll come out in May, I think.
01:24:47.359 --> 01:24:48.399
Yeah, it's amazing.
01:24:48.640 --> 01:25:06.079
Salesforce actually has um because we we have a large ecosystem of people who use Salesforce as a platform, also as independent software vendors, and and there's a lot of solutions on our app exchange where people just build these solutions and then they add to the overall ecosystem.
01:25:06.239 --> 01:25:10.880
So it's it's been part of Salesforce's DNA also from the beginning.
01:25:11.119 --> 01:25:18.239
I think you're right that we have to build this, we have to, we have to reach that scale much faster.
01:25:18.720 --> 01:25:27.520
And I love that you have this open open source idea of sort of helping the whole ecosystem that we need in place.
01:25:27.840 --> 01:25:29.359
Because it's it's all about the people.
01:25:29.600 --> 01:25:33.520
Restoration is um it's a it's a human interaction challenge.
01:25:33.680 --> 01:25:42.000
We have the technology and the tools, and but it's it's it's about it's about ecosystem management more than ecosystem management, right?
01:25:42.159 --> 01:25:48.640
So we have to we have to make sure that that that human capital, that social capital is there.
01:25:48.880 --> 01:25:51.039
I love, by the way, the four returns framework.
01:25:51.119 --> 01:25:54.800
Are you are you familiar with the four returns framework of Commonland?
01:25:55.119 --> 01:25:56.239
No, remind me.
01:25:56.560 --> 01:26:17.039
So a good friend of mine, Willem Ferveder, is um started more than 15 years ago now, this c this company is a Dutch foundation called Commonland with the idea to build a business blueprint for large-scale 60,000 hectare plus landscape restoration projects and make them economically viable.
01:26:17.199 --> 01:26:19.600
It was at the time when nobody was really talking about this.
01:26:19.760 --> 01:26:39.680
So he got a lot of philanthropists and family offices to fund him and team of experts who and they've built the four returns framework of the returns you should aim for are, of course, financial return, but there's also return of social capital, of natural capital, and of inspirational capital.
01:26:39.920 --> 01:26:44.399
And then they have this model of 20 years at least of investing.
01:26:44.560 --> 01:26:52.000
They have zones in these 60,000 plus hectare areas, and they run a number of them now across the world.
01:26:52.079 --> 01:27:02.319
I think it's one of the best thought-through models for scaling this in areas where there's many stakeholders, many villages, towns that are part of these massive landscapes.
01:27:02.560 --> 01:27:05.520
It's really a it's a it's a great framework for I I love it.
01:27:05.600 --> 01:27:07.119
And we ascribe to it fully.
01:27:07.199 --> 01:27:18.399
I mean, we don't use the same language in terms of the inspirational side of it, but it's why we it's why we publish, it's why we share vlogs and the podcast and all those things to try and have that similar effect.
01:27:18.720 --> 01:27:24.000
Um, you mentioned we we hadn't met and and you hadn't come across oxygen before writing that book.
01:27:24.079 --> 01:27:29.840
And as I was working through it and um I study books, so I'm highlighting bits in pink and scribbling in the margin.
01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:35.840
And it just felt as if oxygen was the conclusion that should have sat at the back end of the book.
01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:43.680
Because I love that you write that there isn't enough bankable projects that can absorb the hundreds of millions necessary to engage.
01:27:43.840 --> 01:27:45.520
And that's what we've tried to build.
01:27:45.680 --> 01:27:49.119
And actually, for the first time this year, we will be raising externally.
01:27:49.279 --> 01:27:55.840
So we're gonna try and do a half billion raise later this year to sit alongside what is essentially already our first half billion portfolio.
01:27:56.000 --> 01:27:59.760
If we can bring those two things together, we think getting to Unicorn status is.
01:28:00.159 --> 01:28:05.760
As a nature-based conservation asset manager will have that catalytic effect on the sector as a whole.
01:28:05.920 --> 01:28:13.439
And hopefully, I love when companies are able to move a decade in a day, things leap forward like the Tesla Model S.
01:28:13.520 --> 01:28:19.520
You went from a Prius that was a compromise to a luxury vehicle that all of a sudden transcended everything.
01:28:19.680 --> 01:28:25.439
We've seen it multiple times with OpenAI doing that, Anthropic doing it later.
01:28:25.520 --> 01:28:27.760
Now, we want to do that for the sector as well.
01:28:27.920 --> 01:28:33.920
All of a sudden, if we have a billion under management, then I think that'll be a stimulus for the next hundred startups and companies that will come.
01:28:34.159 --> 01:28:43.680
Yeah, and I love that you're you're expanding into Europe now because I think there's a lot of potential in all of the EU countries to do this at scale.
01:28:43.840 --> 01:28:49.279
I think one of the things you will run into and one of the difficulties is that the ownership structure is just different.
01:28:49.439 --> 01:28:52.000
You have vast estates that have like one owner.
01:28:52.239 --> 01:29:00.079
And you can say, I buy this estate of 3,000 hectares or 10,000 acres, how much doesn't exist in a lot of places.
01:29:00.239 --> 01:29:23.680
Mostly you have small, smaller scale farms where you will have to use a different, I don't know, you, where we, we have to, as the collective nature restoration movement, will have to use different models where we then, it's more like an outgrow scheme or it's more like a collaborative where you have hundreds of farmers collaborating on a large-scale ecosystem restoration project.
01:29:23.760 --> 01:29:28.560
This is where where common lands um methodology is really useful.
01:29:28.640 --> 01:29:37.199
And it's being applied by both commercial and and uh nonprofit restoration uh developers around the world.
01:29:37.359 --> 01:29:52.159
I think that getting large, getting consensus amongst a lot of people for doing restoration in a certain way and learning as we go along is the next frontier of scaling this up.
01:29:52.319 --> 01:30:00.399
If we can solve that, and again, AI can maybe help us solve that, we will be able to raise again.
01:30:00.560 --> 01:30:21.279
We now putting on my hat as the advisory board member of the UN decade on Exist Mastration, we as the collective movement, for-profit, these companies, the you as the first unicorn and other unicorns, will be able to scale this up to other jurisdictions and to larger landscapes and attract significant finance.
01:30:21.520 --> 01:30:23.039
But we need the governments on board.
01:30:23.359 --> 01:30:24.159
Coming back to that point.
01:30:24.479 --> 01:30:26.000
I think I think you're gonna sort that for us.
01:30:26.159 --> 01:30:28.000
I'll just rely on you to sort the government out.
01:30:28.239 --> 01:30:30.239
Um, Tim, you've been incredibly kind with your time.
01:30:30.319 --> 01:30:31.520
I've I've loved every minute.
01:30:31.680 --> 01:30:34.239
Um I end every podcast with the same question.
01:30:34.479 --> 01:30:37.600
What's the one question I haven't asked you you wish I had?
01:30:41.600 --> 01:30:47.520
I think you've been um very thorough and also shared a lot of your deep insights.
01:30:47.600 --> 01:30:49.119
So it's been massively useful.
01:30:49.279 --> 01:31:01.680
I would just love to end on this note that this is also a crisis of relationship and it's an opportunity of relationship with nature more even than it is of finance and technology.
01:31:01.920 --> 01:31:10.560
So just like to encourage everybody to spend more time with nature, spend more time observing, listening, reconnecting.
01:31:10.720 --> 01:31:15.119
That's I think one of the best things we can we can do, and it's free.
