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Hello and welcome to the Scientess Podcast, where we talk to women with successful scientific careers about the joys of science.
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I'm your host, Karen Levy, an environmental health scientist at the School of Public Health at University of Washington in Seattle.
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I'm excited to share with you the stories of some pretty incredible women on this podcast.
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My hope is that these interviews will show aspiring young scientists that a career in science is not only possible, but can also be extremely rewarding and a whole lot of fun.
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Let's jump in with today's featured scientists.
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Dr.
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Kemi Dole is a gynecological oncologist and professor in the OBGYN department at University of Washington School of Medicine, and also holds an adjunct faculty position as a health equity researcher in the School of Public Health.
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She is the founding director of the Gynecological Research and Cancer Equity, aka Grace Center at the University of Washington, a multidisciplinary team that investigates causes of disproportionate suffering for benign and oncologic gynecologic health conditions.
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Her work has been published in high-impact journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine and JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association, and she has been funded by NIH, the Robert Wood-Johnson Foundation, and P.
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CORI, the Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute.
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Her research on racial disparities in endometrial cancer is regularly featured by national media outlets, including the New York Times, Good Morning America, NPR, and BET.
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In addition to being a physician scientist, Kemi is an advocate for better outcomes so that all people may live full and healthy reproductive lives.
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She intertwines her research with her community engagement work to create better health and healthcare systems for black women facing endometrial cancer.
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She co-founded Ecana, the Endometrial Cancer Action Network for African Americans, and she is the author of a book titled A Terrible Strength: The Hidden Crisis of the Black Womb and Your Survival Guide to Healing.
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On top of all that, she's also a coach.
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And I'm not talking about baseball.
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She leads KD Coach LLC, an exclusive coaching company for women of color in academic medicine and public health.
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Her flagship coaching program, Get That Grant, helps high-achieving women of color faculty build the academic career of their dreams while securing funding to do the work they love.
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But wait, there's more.
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She's also the first guest on the Scientess podcast who has her own podcast.
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She is the host of the Your Unapologetic Career podcast, where she talks about common challenges that high achievers in academic medicine and public health face and offers strategies to walk away from institutional mindset and toward nourishing and fulfilling careers.
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Kemi, as a person who states on your website that you, quote, use multiple mediums to spread your messages of empowerment far and wide, end quote.
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I can't imagine someone better equipped to channel the joy that we aim for here at the Scientess Podcast.
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So welcome to the show.
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Thank you.
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What a welcome.
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That was so great.
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I'm so happy to be here.
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Great.
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So my first question is when do you sleep?
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Oh my gosh.
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I get this question so much.
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It's so funny.
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I have to tell you, I sleep good.
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I sleep well.
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I am a product of my own coaching.
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Like everything that I teach faculty about efficiency and managing their time and boundaries are the things I have figured out how to do so that I can do all of those things that you say and like enjoy my life and hang out with my kids and read books at night and all of those things.
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So I have to tell you, I sleep a lot.
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My sleep is most compromised when I travel and like change time zones.
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And then you got to wake up for a 7 a.m.
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talk and stuff.
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Those are the times where it suffers.
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But otherwise, I have an alarm that goes off on my phone at nine o'clock and I'm in bed by 9.15.
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I'm going to bed.
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That's impressive from somebody who stays up way too late on the regular.
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I do want to go back and get to the book and the coaching and the podcast.
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But before we go there, I want to wind it all the way back to the beginning.
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Can you tell me about the trajectory of your career?
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When did you first decide you wanted to become a doctor and a scientist?
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Absolutely.
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So I think I was definitely a kid who was like, I'm going to be a doctor.
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My mother was a nurse, and I definitely had this sense of a doctor is like the grown-up job that you have.
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So I definitely would say that before I really knew what I was talking about.
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And then I remember when I went to undergrad, I remember knowing I wouldn't wanted to be pre-med, but I didn't want to, I just felt like studying one science felt boring.
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So I ended up majoring in biomedical engineering because I just felt like, oh, I'll have exposure to all sorts of different science and math and stuff.
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And I did, and it was great.
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But it also taught me that I really like people.
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And like, and like engineering was fun, but I wanted more of that connection.
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So that's how I figured out I wanted to be a physician.
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Then majoring in biomedical engineering with the intention always of becoming a physician.
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I wanted the option.
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So I was like, let me do biomedical engineering because it felt like something I could explore and continue if I really liked it, as opposed to in my thinking.
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I was like, if I major in biology, I don't know where I'm going to go with that almost, if that makes sense.
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I don't know that that was accurate thinking, but I remember feeling like, well, this is an alternative career path in case I don't want to go to medical school.
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So I did end up going to medical school.
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And I thought I was actually going to do infectious disease and focus on HIV.
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I loved women's health so much.
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I loved my OBGY in rotation.
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And it was actually in medical school that I was first introduced to research because I applied for this program that was actually sponsored by the Department of Family Medicine.
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And they introduced you to research and family medicine.
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And as part of that, you had to do a research project.
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And so I did one on domestic violence screening in their outreach clinics.
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And that's when I first kind of got the bug of like, huh, funny.
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If you put on your researcher hat, you can ask people all types of questions.
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Like I it just got me like really intrigued.
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And then I would say the next level of being interested in the science side of it came in residency when it was just so obvious to me how much of care was influenced by non-biological factors.
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And it also was clear to me how complicated it was.
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So I remember when I was going to fellowship, I specifically was looking for training programs that I knew I could get a master's degree, like I could get some very rigorous training in health services research because I wanted to understand better the quality of care differences and things that I was seeing.
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And so that was really that was another kind of point of commitment.
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So I went to UNC, and there is when I could apply and do their master's of science and clinical research program.
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And I also did a postdoc there in cancer care quality.
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So that was kind of the trajectory of why I decided I want to be a clinician scientist.
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Like I don't just want to do one-on-one patient care.
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So you were going through medical school and you saw disparities in treatment.
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Like what got you interested in the specific topics that you look at.
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Oh, the different topics.
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Oh, yeah.
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So I was always attuned towards justice.
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Everybody told me when I was younger, you're going to be a lawyer.
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And I kind of recoiled against that because I actually don't like arguing, but I do like justice.
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And so I remember feeling like in medicine, I just felt like you could really, you could really serve people and help them fight their fights in the world.
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So there was this justice underlying the whole decision to be a physician.
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And then when I got to medical school, my medical school, when I tell you this care was so segregated by insurance and economics, which ends up essentially being racially segregated, it was the type of thing where like the ophthalmology clinic for people with private insurance is on the 10th floor, and the one for people with public insurance is in the basement.
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And it's like same doctors, but like literally, we don't even have these people in the same place.
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So that was so abhorrent to me.
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And I thought naively that that was a part of that institution.
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And so when I went to residency, I chose a hospital that didn't have a VIP floor where I thought I'm like, okay, there's no segregated care.
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Everybody gets care in the same way.
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And that's when I realized, oh, Kami, it's so much more complicated than that.
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And that's when I saw, oh, there are disparities within the same system.
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And there are disparities within the same unit.
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And that's what I mean about that complication is when I started really thinking, this is so much more than implicit bias, or this is so much more than the insurance program.
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Like you have to actually understand baked in.
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Yeah, it's baked in.
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And also the way that it shows up in a given condition is different.
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And I thought that that was really what pulled me towards wanting to disentangle is that you can't look at the disparity around hypertension control and the disparity around uterine cancer diagnosis the same.
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The clinical context of the condition, so that's where the biology comes in, interplays with how the disparity shows up and then how you're going to try to solve the inequity.
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How does it show up differently for those two?
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What do you mean by that?
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Okay, here's a different example.
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I'm gonna give you what's similar and what's different.
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Okay.
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So if we go to heart attacks, so there's that New England Journal of Medicine paper.
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I can't remember what yours published now, it's a while ago, where they had the actors at a cardiology conference and they had black women and black men and white women and white men, and they were all actors, and they read the exact same script and they acted the exact same script, basically giving symptoms that indicated that they were having a heart attack and they needed to go for a catheterization.
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And they clearly found, like without a shadow of the doubt, that black women were the least likely to be referred for the heart attack.
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So these actors are saying the same thing, same lines, but the impression is this person's fine.
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So that issue of black women's pain not being seen or taken seriously is something that we know we see across all types of conditions.
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So that's like the same thing that happens with the laboring mother who's about to give birth and gets turned away from the hospital because they can't see her as vulnerable.
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So in that sense, there are similarities, right?
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But then I'll take it back, I'll take it now to my world.
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If you now you're trying to understand why do we have disparities in ovarian cancer mortality and why do we have disparities in uterine cancer mortality, those reasons are very different because those conditions and how they show up are different.
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So in uterine cancer, there's this whole world of early diagnosis, and there's this whole world of symptoms and how somebody's culture and their experiences interact with how they experience symptoms and then what happens when they go to the doctor.
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In ovarian cancer, most women are diagnosed at stage three or four off the top, off the bat.
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And the disparities of mortality aren't about diagnosis.
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Those disparities are about response to chemotherapy and about the treatment phase.
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So if you are trying to paint one brush and saying, well, access to care is the issue, you're not going to actually be effective in the given condition.
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The fundamental cause theory is one that I'm quite obsessed with because I think it does a really good job of explaining both of those things, which is that there are some fundamental issues that span across all inequities that have to do with these differential access to key resources.
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But then how much that differential access actually impacts mortality outcomes is very dependent on the biology and the specifics and the clinical nature of the disease.
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Sounds like you bring to this your clinical hat, and then you're merging that with your research hat on health disparities, research, and you're able to bring in those details about clinical care to your work.
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And so you were in medical school, you're seeing the disparities, and then you're adding on the research piece to your training, and you made a decision that research is the way to address this, because some clinicians might take it a different way through a business or through a, you know, any any number of things.
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But what is it that drew you to research as a way to address these problems?
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Well, one is that what I how often I would hear and I would learn, well, black women have a worse X or they have worse outcomes with Y, or da-da-da-da-da.
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And then you'd ask the question, well, why is that?
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And the answer is we don't really know why.
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Clinically was not the answer because they were literally telling me, oh, we have all this clinical knowledge, but we have no idea why people who look like you don't do as well with this.
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So that was one of just like, okay, it sounds like we need more research.
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And then secondarily, when then reading the research, so both in residency, but I would say mostly in fellowship, when I was really reading the research on endometrial cancer, so consistently the assumption was this is a biological problem.
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Like we don't know why, but black women have some biological difference, and this is why they don't do well, and that's the end.
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And there's just no curiosity beyond that.
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Meanwhile, as somebody who's in clinical training, watching differential care, watching this issue of a black woman says something, we respond one way, somebody else says something, we respond another.
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You literally can feel and see that there's so much more than biology.
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So that's what drew me to research was recognizing one, the gaps in knowledge, but then two, and maybe even more profoundly, what knowledge is created is not objective.
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And when I understood that, because I mean I was a science girly, science is objective.
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I was like science is there's objective truth, like that's what it is.
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So when I was, when I realized from a scientific standpoint, from a mature clinical and scientific standpoint, oh, the research that is produced can be biased too.
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That's what I was like, okay, I'm coming in here.
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Because we need, we need a counter perspective to this unstated assumption that these problems are being generated because there's something broken about the black woman's body.
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And I mean, there's also what questions do you ask with research?
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Exactly.
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Major biases in which questions we're asking in the first place.
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So you can use research as a tool for many different things, but you have to be asking the right questions.
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Correct.
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And interpreting the anyway, all the things, all the things.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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So what's your favorite part about doing research?
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Have your interests changed over time, or are they more or less the same, just in differences on a theme?
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I think my favorite part of doing research is the creativity and the flexibility.
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I love that the job of science and research is to ask questions and figure out new ways how to answer them.
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I love the problem solving of research.
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That's the engineering coming through too.
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I just really enjoy that.
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And I just feel like there are so few careers where you just get to ask questions and then answer them.
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So those are many things.
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You asked me for one thing.
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Those are many things I love about research.
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In terms of my research interests, I would say that they have broadened and become more sophisticated.
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So when I started, I would have branded myself as a health services researcher that was interested in quality of care.
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And the two areas I really focused on in my grad program was population-level data analysis.
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So I did a lot of state level analysis using all-payer data and then also patient-reported outcomes.
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So in cancer, especially, that was when there was a big push to say maybe we should ask the patients how bad their nausea is instead of just like us rating it on our own scale.
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So there was a big push at that time to develop these patient-reported measures of a lot of the symptoms that we encounter.
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So between those two, I was thinking, okay, I am going to kind of close this gap around the quality of how we assess treatments with the patient-reported outcomes data and their impact on people, as well as thinking about, again, really classic health services systems research.
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One of my papers for my master's was people being transferred from low volume to high volume centers and that kind of thing.
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And when it was so clear, I mean, I knew this, but seeing over and over how no matter what data set I was looking at or using, black women were always at the bottom.
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They're always a worse outcome.
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It's always an independent variable that predicts some poor outcome.
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That combined with Trayvon Martin's murder, where I think a lot, I know for myself, it was a real moment of like, what can I do in my space to make a difference for my community?
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Those two things combined to make me realize I actually want to take all this I've learned.
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Then this now I'm on the job market.
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I'm like, I want to take all this I've learned and I want to focus on black women and endometrial cancer.
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So it first felt like a narrowing.
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Like I'm, I want to tackle this problem.
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The reason why I say it's broadened is because the research showed me that Black women do not experience endometrial cancer just as this isolated cancer event.
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They experience it as the end of a gynecologic life journey.
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And so if you don't understand what's happened with people from the time they had their first period, fibroids, et cetera, then you're missing what's going on when they get endometrial cancer at 62.
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And because of that, it actually made me wonder: well, how much of the rest of gynecology works like this too?
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And we have just falsely divided these, this world of benign and cancer.
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And so that broadened my interest.
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So now I do research not just specifically on endometrial cancer, but also on hysterectomy rates and fibroids and bleeding and symptoms and abnormal bleeding and anemia and all these things because I realized that all of this actually intertwines to see some of the differential outcomes we see in the gynecologic cancer world.
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So in that sense, I feel like I'm broader.
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And then the other way I feel like I'm broader is that I love theory.
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I love theory and frameworks and I love applying them.
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I feel like in another life, maybe I would have been more of like a medical sociologist.
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I just think that I love the work that they do.
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So now, especially in more of a mentoring role, I'm really enjoying helping and guiding people on how to take some of these same frameworks and theories I've used and apply them to different populations and how they get adapted and they vary a little bit.
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I find that very intellectually stimulating.
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Combining these interests is really hard to do.
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And it sounds like you have done it really effectively by wearing these two hats of clinician and more on the disparities.
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Not easily though.
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And also the community engaged research, Karen.
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That's the other piece.
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I didn't get any training in community engaged research.
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That came after I started on faculty and I was just like, well, I need to engage this survivor community.
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I'm gonna learn things from them.
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And I just had no idea how much that would take off as a pillar of my work going forward.
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So that was another shift from the quote unquote plan.
00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:33.839
So you were on the job market and you kind of had a shift when you went on the job market.
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.160
So you did you start at University of Washington?
00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:37.440
Did your career?
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:38.079
Yes.
00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:47.039
And so tell me a little bit about that path to getting the job and starting up your research program and your life here.
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:48.559
Gosh, what version of that?
00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:49.599
Do you want to hear?
00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:50.640
There's like the group.
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:52.240
What version do you want to try?
00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:54.160
There's the PC version.
00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:57.119
Okay, so first of all, by that point I'm married.
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:00.240
And I have unfortunately married another ambitious person.
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:06.720
So my spouse is also an academic clinician, also wants to be a clinician scientist.
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:11.839
So now there's two physician scientists on the job market trying to find a job.
00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:13.519
So just the stress.
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:26.880
I knew I wanted to be competitive going on the job market, and I knew that it was rare for surgical subspecialties to be willing to grant junior faculty any kind of research time because you just make too much money for the hospital.
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:28.640
Your procedures are very lucrative.
00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:33.119
So nobody is interested in paying you to sit in your office and think they want you to cut and sew.
00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:40.799
So I kind of approached that first job search, knowing that I kind of needed a plan to prove I'm a good bet.
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:42.720
Like I'm serious about this research.
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:43.519
This is my plan.
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:48.960
So I had like a five-point, I mean, I had a folder, I got, I had color-coded, I had a I had a five-year plan.
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:50.640
I had a financial ROI.
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:52.400
Like, you're gonna invest this much in me.
00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:53.920
These are how many grants I'm gonna get.
00:20:53.920 --> 00:21:00.720
It was a very aggressive way that I went on the market because I understood, again, that this was, it's very rare.
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:12.480
Like it's not common at all in gynecological oncology for somebody to come in and start off as a clinician scientist, especially somebody who's not lab-based, who doesn't already have a lab and maybe came up through training programs that way.
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:23.200
And then at this, and then also I was balancing my spouse, who also was looking for a job where he could also do health services research, because that's what his interest in, although in a different different area.
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:32.000
So it ultimately ended up that there were three institutions that we were finally seriously looking at, or groups of institutions, I should say.
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:35.519
Like in some places, he would be at one place and I'd be at the other in the same city.
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:51.279
And I ended up choosing University of Washington because it was by far the best microenvironment for my work, meaning that it was a rare division that had a track record of successful gynecologic oncology clinician researchers.
00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:56.000
They hadn't had any health services researchers, but still they had some concept of that.
00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:59.279
And then, two, they kind of were willing to go with my bet.
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:05.200
They were like, You know, I mean, we'll give you a few years to see if you can get this all off the ground.
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:08.079
And then, you know, the people and the leadership really spoke to me.
00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:16.000
Like, I felt like, you know what, I could fall flat on my face, but only because the work is hard, not because I would be fighting against my environment.
00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:18.640
How do you think you knew your value so well?
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:26.960
I think a lot of people go out on the job market, especially at the assistant level, they are just hoping to get a job, period.
00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:30.160
And it sounds like you really knew your value.
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:36.880
Why do you think you had that confidence and that understanding of the way the system worked so well at that point in your life?
00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:38.720
I actually talk about this in my book.
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:41.200
So I won't give you all the details because you need to go out and get my book.
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:45.920
But I would say on one level, I had already hit a rock bottom.
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:52.400
And I had already been through experiences in my life where I'm like, oh, my future's not guaranteed.
00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.039
You know, like I I've I had already lost everything.
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:59.440
And I don't, I wouldn't want to wish that on anybody for sure.
00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:11.680
But there was something about my experiences in undergrad and what I went through that made it so that my approach going forward was just, I'm gonna try my hardest.
00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:13.359
Like I'm leaving everything on the field.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:14.720
There's no plan B.
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:22.319
And in that sense, there's a courage that comes with that that overcomes the sense of imposter syndrome or whatever.
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:27.200
Because for myself, I just have to know I literally gave it everything I had.
00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:28.640
And then if it fails, it fails.
00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:29.920
But I have to know that.
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:44.000
So it's that engine of achievement that combined with by the time I'm coming out of fellowship, I had receipts, for lack of a better word, you know, to use the to use the term the kids use, which is that as a fellow, I had to figure out how to pay my tuition.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.440
I had to figure out how to pay my salary for the years that I was doing my master's.
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:48.559
I had to figure all that out.
00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:54.480
So I had to learn how to write grants as a fellow so that I could figure out how to get onto a training grant.
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:59.119
I was the first MD ever accepted into the postdoc that I was accepted into.
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:03.440
It was like a very school of public health PhD, very traditional postdoc.
00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:08.400
So I guess I had already exercised some of that muscle of like, okay, I know how to write.
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:12.880
And I had to do a lot of people, but I started to learn the game.
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:16.480
And again, that sense of I'm gonna give this my best.
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:24.480
When I am really trying to learn or do something, in that case, it was learn how to write grants and learn all of that.
00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:28.240
I don't have a lot of embarrassment about not knowing what I'm doing.
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:31.359
I'm just going to get the information that I need from whoever's in front of me.
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:34.640
So I did get the training grant, and then I went on to keep writing grants.
00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:37.839
So I got, I also got an institutional cancer center award.
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:39.920
I got a national foundation award.
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:49.279
So I kind of came out of fellowship like these aren't huge grants, but I'm not scared of the ability to have to write a few pages and get somebody to give me money.
00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:51.839
So that was another kind of piece of confidence.
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:53.680
Yeah, that's an amazing story.
00:24:53.839 --> 00:25:00.799
And you've given a great plug for your book because now you want to go read it and fill in some of those details.
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:09.759
And what happened with your spouse?
00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:11.920
Did they did he get it?
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:12.480
He did, yeah.
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:14.079
So he also it was the best.
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:15.440
Yeah, I should have said that.
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:20.319
I I should say I'm I get very used to not talking about him because he is a private person.
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:23.359
He is amazing, but also he does not care about any of this.
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:26.319
So he also had a good setup.
00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:28.319
And we had, it was literally a balance.
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:31.119
Like for neither one of us was it perfect, right?
00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:33.119
First, I studied black women with uterine cancer.
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:36.079
I'm moving to Seattle with a population of 4% African American.
00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:38.559
Like I understood, and people were like, What are you doing?
00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:45.839
And it created a challenge for me because from the very beginning, my work had to have a regional or national scope.
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.920
I could not do what a lot of clinician scientists do, which is recruit from their clinic.
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:52.480
So all that was never aligned for me.
00:25:52.480 --> 00:26:03.519
So it was hard, but I'm actually grateful for it because it allowed my work to be more impactful and generalizable earlier because, like, my career development projects were national projects.
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:05.279
I had to recruit from all sorts of sites.
00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:07.839
So that was a downside for me, right?
00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:13.519
But also he had a good setup in terms of a place where, again, he had protected research time.
00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:19.039
He's an interventional cardiologist, he's interested in studying peer review and the quality of care in that world.
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:21.599
So it just worked out that it made sense for both of us.
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:24.000
Whereas there were other people that's an optimization problem, right?
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:24.559
Exactly.
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:27.519
We just had to optimize for each person and then go from there.
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:32.319
I mean, if this was a relationship podcast, I could talk to you a lot more about how to.
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:45.680
I don't think that there's a lot of good quality conversation about how people navigate professional ambition and career ambition with their partners, especially centered on women.
00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:50.319
And it bothers me because I I feel like people kind of fly blind.
00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:54.240
And I felt like we were to some extent, but we also learned a lot of things.
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:57.200
I don't know, maybe that's another book, but anyway, we made it through.
00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:00.720
We sort of think everybody's flying blind at that point.
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:03.279
And you don't know what's gonna happen.
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:08.559
And so you kind of have to take a leap of faith and hope that whatever position you start in works out.
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:14.400
And if it doesn't, you move on to another, yep, another situation, I suppose.
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.440
So you mentioned a little bit about imposter syndrome.
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.680
Are there other times when you've had imposter syndrome?
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:24.799
You mentioned not having it actually, but what would you talk about about imposter syndrome?
00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:28.319
Have you had it in your career and how have you overcome it?
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:29.440
Okay.
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:34.000
Um I have to think about what I'm gonna say because I have a whole episode on imposter syndrome.
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:36.160
I feel so strongly about this topic.
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:39.119
First of all, have I had imposter syndrome?
00:27:39.119 --> 00:28:02.960
Yes, when we're very clear about the definition of what imposter syndrome is, which is that I have had times where even though there is documented evidence that I am capable of doing something, I still feel somehow that I might not be capable of doing it again, or that it was a fluke, like whatever the evidence presented was just a fluke.
00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:07.920
And so therefore, in the moment, I don't feel as confident as I want to feel in that moment.
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:09.839
And that's how I think of imposter syndrome.
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:15.359
There's evidence already, and you're not incorporating that evidence into your confidence.
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:18.480
And so you feel like an imposter, you feel like a fake.
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:19.920
So I've experienced that.
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:24.319
When I started my postdoc, I felt imposter syndrome because I was like, what am I doing here?
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:25.359
These are real PhDs.
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:28.799
Kevin, like, I'm like, Kevin, these people, these are real scientists.
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:32.160
You somehow smooth talked your way into here.
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:34.319
They're gonna figure out you don't know what you're doing.
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:36.880
Like you just got a degree two seconds ago.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:39.920
That was because you were a clinician and you were going into the state.
00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:41.680
Yes, and because I was going in history.
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:42.400
Exactly.
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:49.920
And so I just felt like the these are the real scientists, and I'm here playing at science because my path had been different.
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:52.240
So I remember feeling that.
00:28:52.240 --> 00:29:06.079
And for me, the mitigation of that and not letting the imposter syndrome take over was honestly being present to my own contributions and recognizing, like, oh, you're you're talking and contributing just like everybody else.
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:08.160
You're asking questions just like everybody else.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:10.720
You put together a proposal or whatever, and it's reviewed.
00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:13.680
And it's like, this is this is this sounds like everybody else's review.
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:18.880
So basically, just incorporating the evidence early that there isn't this complete mismatch.
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:24.000
Frankly, sometimes you see the mediocrity of other people's work and you're like, I'm fine.
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:29.839
I mean, I and I think everybody can appreciate this right now in 2026 in the United States of America.
00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:31.519
We got to get rid of imposter syndrome.
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:37.200
We have literal nut jobs running the country who I want to be clear, are not swift.
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:39.440
Like these people are not intelligent.
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:41.039
You can tell how they talk.
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:44.960
You're like, oh my gosh, you are this is we're not, we're not quick here.
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:53.680
So I just think that there is a way in which, if you're open to also accumulating more data, it does help with imposter syndrome.
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:58.240
Now, the reason why I said I feel strongly about it is because I think some people misdiagnose imposter syndrome.
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:04.319
Because if you actually haven't done it yet and you're like, I'm terrified and maybe I can't do it or whatever, that's not imposter syndrome.
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:05.119
That's just you're scared.
00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:06.079
You haven't done it yet.
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:08.480
That's fear or excitement, et cetera.
00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:12.559
Sometimes people have skill gaps and then they keep calling imposter syndrome.
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:18.000
And if you don't know how to do something, then closing the gap in how to do it is the answer, right?
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:19.680
Not just being more confident.
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:20.720
So I'll leave it there.
00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:21.359
Yeah.
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:22.079
Interesting.
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:23.599
I like that distinction.
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:24.160
Okay.
00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:28.960
What are ways that being a woman has positively impacted your career?
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:31.039
Oh my God, I'm so glad I'm a woman.
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:31.839
Are you kidding me?
00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:33.920
First of all, I think okay.
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:35.359
Okay, so many reasons.
00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:37.599
One, um, it's so weird, right?
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:39.039
Because what's the counterfactual?
00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:42.000
I don't know what it's, I don't know what it's like not to be a woman.
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:49.599
But I would say I think there's probably a reason why most of my team are women of color, not just women of women of color.
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:55.680
I always forget what broader academia is like until I go to conferences and stuff, or I go visit another department.
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:57.599
I'm like, oh, that's right, all dudes.
00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:00.000
So what is the shift that I'm feeling?
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:09.839
One, I think because of socialization, not because of binary essentialist gender politics, but because of socialization.
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:25.519
People who identify as women or femmes, I will say, tend to have a different level of emotional intelligence and emotional responsibility for themselves that I enjoy in a workplace.
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:37.599
So it doesn't mean we're all perfect, but I appreciate the fact that I feel like I bring that to my work and that my colleagues who are mostly women that I work with bring that to their work because the work is hard enough.
00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:46.640
And I don't like to have to add managing somebody's personality on top of that or managing their unrecognized emotional needs.
00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:51.599
Another reason is I study women, me personally.
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:54.400
So I study gynecology, et cetera.
00:31:54.400 --> 00:32:08.720
And so given that sexism is rampant and we still have major problems with access and equality with regard to women, I personally feel really good about doing work that uplifts women, my community.
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:10.319
That's really important to me.
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:15.599
And I would just add, because I can't really separate being black and being a woman, I think it's all the same thing.
00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:18.240
I feel the same way about being a black woman.
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:26.160
I feel like though we live in a society that constantly makes things harder from that perspective.
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:31.440
I also get to pull on a community of people that are still here anyway.
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:36.559
And I think that there is something kind of unstoppable about that.
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:40.240
Like it's almost like there, it's like the underdog advantage.
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:45.759
It's like that advantage of the system isn't built for me, but I'm still gonna be here makes a win so much sweeter.
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:48.480
And maybe anybody, any woman in science can appreciate that.
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:49.519
It's like it just makes sense.
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:52.480
It's like how we felt about Christina Koch and the Artemis too, right?
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:55.359
Everybody's like, ha! It's like, why do you feel that way?
00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:57.359
Because the win is so much bigger.
00:32:57.359 --> 00:32:59.119
So yeah, those are all the reasons.
00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:03.680
And you have to come up with creative ways to navigate the system that maybe wasn't made for you.
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:04.319
Oh, yeah.
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:06.079
You I mean, I know we're being positive here.
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:08.079
So I'm not trying to like polyana all of it.
00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:15.200
There's some things I need to change, but I would never discount also the pleasure, right, in doing well in a system not built for you.
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:19.359
There, there's pleasure in that of being like, oh, it's like that feeling of competence, right?
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:20.880
It's that feeling of like, I did it.
00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:22.160
And that that is great.
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:26.559
Yeah, it's like an additional opportunity to feel a sense of accomplishment.
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:28.480
Like that take on it.
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:29.519
That's interesting.
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:32.319
What about men in your career?
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:40.960
And have you had examples of where men have been really great allies or mentors or helped helped pave that way for you?
00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:42.559
Yeah, I definitely have.
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:44.720
I mean, oh my God, I definitely have.
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:48.480
I have a mentor, a distant career mentor, I would say.
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:52.240
He definitely just like emailed me out of the blue kind of thing and was like, hey, I've seen your work.
00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:52.799
It's really good.
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:54.720
You should come give a talk at my institution type thing.
00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:55.920
And I was like, okay.
00:33:55.920 --> 00:34:00.000
And I came to the institution, the way that this man treated me.
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:03.920
I remember sitting here thinking, like, I mean, I just had this moment of like, wow.
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:06.480
He was just really like, we're so happy you're here.
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:10.239
He introduced me to all the different faculty, was talking about my work.
00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:15.679
And I think I was so taken aback because I'm so used to having to be like, I deserve to be here.
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:25.840
And this is my like, I'm so used to doing all that work that to have somebody in a position of power, department chair, man, you know, come in and just be like, you don't even have to do all that work.
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:28.079
I'm happy to tell them how amazing you are.
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:33.039
And and then just the care in the visit and all of that, it really shifted something for me, actually.
00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:35.199
It happened maybe three or four years into my career.
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:41.039
And it was kind of the first time where I was like, oh, I'm not just doing well enough, you know, like, okay, I'm doing well.
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:42.000
I got my grants.
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:43.760
My work is really meaningful here.
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:57.440
So it was, it was an ally move because that's really interesting because it's such a small act of kindness or act of grace that yeah, it had a big impact on you that he might not even, he might not even remember any huge impact on me.
00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:05.360
Now I stayed in touch because I was like, wait, you are very small, but you're right though, because those are the things that's like there are some things you can't give yourself, right?
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:06.719
This is why we all need allies, right?
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.440
This is why allies matter, because we all say, listen, women can't fight alone.
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:10.800
Black women can't fight alone, right?
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:11.840
We all need the allies.
00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:17.599
But that moment showed me the power of endorsement almost, like the power of that is real.
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:21.039
It was a sponsorship power, and it made a difference for me.
00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:26.639
And I know that people have had similar experiences where they're like, yeah, it really and also not wanting anything, right?
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:28.880
Not there's no like, oh, now I did this for you.
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:29.280
Nothing.
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:31.760
Just like, no, I just like to spotlight great scholars.
00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:32.320
That's it.
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:32.719
Yeah.
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:37.119
And also then it's also exhausting to have to promote yourself.
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:40.800
And there's the expectation should be that you don't have to do that.
00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:43.199
If your work is good, somebody will do that for you.
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:47.360
Yeah, but except that's literally not, as you know, that is not actually how it works.
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:48.719
But yes, ideally.
00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:51.199
So it was like, I think I had that moment of the ideal.
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:51.920
That was amazing.
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:53.519
And how about your spouse?
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:57.199
You said you both are academics, you're both having these careers.
00:35:57.199 --> 00:35:58.559
How do you balance that?
00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:00.159
How do you balance the workload?
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:01.199
You said you have kids.
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:02.559
A ton of support.
00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:04.159
I mean, paid support.
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:05.840
This is the other hill I'll die on.
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:08.639
First of all, we don't have anybody, we don't have family that lived in the area.
00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:12.239
We don't have a grandma that lives in the house, we don't have nothing, nothing like that.
00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:13.280
We're out here on our own.
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:14.079
We have two kids.
00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:19.760
When we moved here, our son was one and a half, and then we had our daughter a couple of years later.
00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:26.239
So one reason why it works is because we spend a lot of money on support.
00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:35.039
So we have a full-time nanny that we pay full-time over the table, payroll tax, benefits, everything full-time.
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:38.559
Number two, we have cleaning service that comes to clean the house.
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:45.920
Number three, I get my lunches delivered because it's one less thing I have to worry about because a salad company delivers salad.
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:47.760
So I don't have to worry about lunches.
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:53.119
Oh, we do babysitters, we try to do a babysitter at least once a month so we can go out, just the two of us.
00:36:53.119 --> 00:37:04.480
One way that we do have family help that is no small thing at all, is that my in-laws will take our kids for a week so we can go on vacation once a year, which is huge.
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:04.960
Yeah.
00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:07.679
That's I love that it's so that you can go on vacation.
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:08.079
Yes.
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:09.119
It's so you can work.
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:11.039
No, we go on vacation.
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:12.639
So I'm just emphasizing this.
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:15.599
There are other things, obviously, like good communication.
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.599
We still love each other, super helpful.
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:18.800
We also like each other.
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:33.440
There are these other things that we've learned how to manage, but I don't think that there's enough really explicit conversation about the fact that both of our retirement accounts would be higher if we spent less money on the support.
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:37.280
But it means that when we come home, we can focus on each other and the family.
00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:38.880
And that was a big thing for me.
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:43.519
I don't want to spend all weekend doing domestic labor and not connecting with you and the kids.
00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:45.920
When we get home from work, I want us to connect.
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:48.000
Oh, and also not too many kid activities.
00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:54.079
So I don't know if you've heard of the saying, it's like you could have a parent-focused family, a kid-focused family, or a family-focused family.
00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:59.920
We really try to be a family-focused family, which means that we're trying to make decisions that are good for the whole unit.
00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:04.719
And so that means that, yeah, sometimes my kids want to do like this activity and four more.
00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:10.559
And I'm like, okay, you get one during the season and you get one, and that's already enough.
00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:14.480
Like baseball and softball season happening at the same time is enough.
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:16.960
We can barely make it to all the practices in games.
00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:20.000
So that is another way that we make it work.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:20.400
Yeah.
00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:28.719
I get the sense that you're very strategic about what you say no to, but you also say yes to a lot of things.
00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:36.239
And so you have your academic career and you have coaching and writing and podcasting.
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:41.199
So, how do you make decisions about what do you say no to and what do you say yes to?
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:41.840
Mm-hmm.
00:38:42.320 --> 00:39:01.199
When I first started, I would say that I was very good at saying no to things that I could not see how they clearly and specifically supported my career goals, meaning that I have these are my clinical goals, these are my teaching-oriented goals, these are my research goals.
00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:10.480
If somebody's bringing me an opportunity and I can't see clearly how does this directly support this goal, then I would say no, because that's not moving me towards where I need to be.
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:18.639
As you go along, I say this to the early career researchers for sure, as you go along, when you're very good about that, you will then produce work, right?
00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:21.039
Like you'll start meeting those goals that you set for yourself.
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:22.639
That creates more opportunity.
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:35.679
So now it's about how do I discern, right, what opportunity, because now they all fit within my goals, but what opportunities make sense for me in this season and where I'm trying to go next.
00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:42.079
And that I fully use my own internal compass of what makes me feel alive, what makes me excited.
00:39:42.079 --> 00:40:01.039
Because I remember learning this in medical school, honestly, going through the rotations, which is that if you pick what you do based on your perception of one, how prestigious it's going to be, or maybe how easy it's going to be, or whatever, none of that will make up for doing something you don't enjoy.
00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:02.480
It will not make up for it.
00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:06.000
So I saw that, or at least for me, the equation never works.
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:25.840
And the opposite is true, which is that if you are doing something that you genuinely enjoy, even when it gets challenging, I mean, the work you really care about it, or the opportunity, the committee, whatever, even when it gets challenging, you will have access to more energy for that than you would if you only did it because, well, I'm just trying to check this box, or somebody told me to do it.
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:28.000
So I really go by that.
00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:30.480
So all the things you said, yes, they're they're a lot.
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:38.000
And I don't do them alone anymore, but they fuel themselves in that they are nourishing to me.
00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:40.960
So working on them replenishes me.
00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:46.559
So I don't feel like, oh my God, I can't, unless I just do something terrible and overschedule myself like crazy.
00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:49.039
But that's why my assistant helps me not do that.
00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:50.880
I can completely relate to that.
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:52.719
I mean, this podcast is a great example of it.
00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:53.280
Exactly.
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:54.079
Fun.
00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:55.519
I'm really enjoying it.
00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:58.880
And so I'm doing it, even though you know it's not a good thing.
00:40:58.880 --> 00:40:59.760
You got a lot to do with them.
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:00.639
Exactly.
00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:01.119
Exactly.
00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:01.599
Exactly.
00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:04.480
Something that, yeah, it may brings me joy.
00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:08.000
So speaking of that, what is it that brings you joy day to day?
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:08.960
What are your hobbies?
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:10.239
How do you treat yourself?
00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:10.639
Yeah.
00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:12.000
So I'm a big reader.
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:14.239
I love sci-fi and fantasy books.
00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:20.480
I love romance novels, and I love nonfiction, like theoretical physics.
00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:24.800
I just really love nerding out on the universe, basically, for lack of a better word.
00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:26.159
So reading is a big one.
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:31.760
Recently, one of my research coordinators, Gen Z, introduced me to this concept of cozy games.
00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:33.920
These are video games that are just relaxing.
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:35.280
They're not competitive.
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:44.239
So I have been playing something called Camp Grove, which I don't know, you just go around and help out the bears work out their emotional problems and you make food for them.
00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:45.119
It's great.
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:47.599
And you fish and you just have a good old time.
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:48.719
So that's very new.
00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:50.079
That's within the last year.
00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:51.360
So I like doing that.
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:55.440
And this is gonna be so cliche, but I like genuinely like my kids.
00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:57.760
They're really funny, especially they're 11 and 7.
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:03.679
So I'm in this beautiful window post being little kid, but they're not really teenagers yet.
00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:07.280
And they are really fun right now and really funny.
00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:13.599
So laughing with them and hearing them talk about their day, genuinely joy, genuinely joyful.
00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:14.000
Yeah.
00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:16.480
They're pretty fun still when they get to be teenagers.
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:18.719
It's just uh they get they're they get interesting.
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:19.280
Okay.
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:22.159
Well, we'll we'll see how that's in conversations with them.
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:27.679
And then how do you take care of your body and stay physically and mentally fit?
00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:28.719
Oh my gosh.
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:34.880
Okay, we're long on recording, so I'll save the little story of my knee injury, but I would say now I walk every day.
00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:43.280
So I usually walk two miles in the morning on a treadmill in my basement, and that keeps me sane and also helps with my cardiovascular risk factors.
00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:54.079
And then I have been in physical therapy for almost two years, and I go twice a week, and that's for my knee, and that's quite a that ends up feeling like quite a workout.
00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:56.559
So that's what I do physically.
00:42:56.559 --> 00:42:58.880
Mentally, I'm a big journaler.
00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:04.400
So even if it's only a couple lines, I have structured journals, unstructured journals, I have a reading journal.
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:08.880
I just I get my stuff out in writing.
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:10.079
So that helps too.
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:15.920
And then, you know, my really good friends who are always a voice note or a text away, all those things help a lot.
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:18.320
Well, I know you're a coach.
00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:18.800
Uh-huh.
00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:25.199
And so you have a lot of advice for other people coming up.
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:29.280
And I wonder if there's some nugget that you'd like to share.
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:33.920
And I'll just say, well, go and listen to your podcast to uh so many more.
00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:34.800
Lots.
00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:36.400
So yeah, lots of nuggets.
00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:45.599
But is there anything you could say, like if you could give one piece of advice to a young woman coming up in science, anything you could distill it down to?
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:48.800
Um I've stumped you.
00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:50.800
Because I'm trying to distill it down.
00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:51.280
I know.
00:43:51.599 --> 00:44:06.320
I would say that if you're a young woman coming up in science, it is likely that you have the ability to work very hard at Something and to persevere, you probably already are a fairly resilient person.
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:14.079
And I want you to understand that you're always going to be choosing on behalf of what are you working hard.
00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:20.639
And if you want to feel like you lead your career, make sure that you are working hard for the things that you care about.
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:23.679
Make sure you're working hard for the science you care about.
00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:29.199
Make sure that you are receiving the benefit of all of your hard work.
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:30.559
That's what I would say.
00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:32.159
That's fantastic.
00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:33.360
I love that.
00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:40.800
And I will say that I feel like I could talk to you forever and pick up so much wisdom.
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:52.079
But again, I'm just gonna refer the listeners to the Your Unapologetic Career podcast where you can hear Kemi talk at length about so many different topics.
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:54.719
And I think there's so much to learn from you.
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:59.519
Okay, so now if you weren't a scientist, how would you spend your days?
00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:00.320
What would you do?
00:45:00.320 --> 00:45:03.119
And it's a kind of a funny question for you because you do a lot of things.
00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:03.840
I know, right?
00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:06.880
Directly science, but I know, but I'm trying to think.
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:09.679
So I'll take out the author part too, because that's like from the science.
00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:13.840
So I would say I would probably I feel like I would probably be in mental health.
00:45:13.840 --> 00:45:20.320
I think I would be like a therapist, or I could see that it's like kind of a cousin to the coaching world.
00:45:20.320 --> 00:45:29.199
I just get so much benefit out of pouring into people and motivating and inspiring people and helping people out of their pain in different ways.
00:45:29.199 --> 00:45:33.199
And I feel like medicine actually just was one way to do that.
00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:35.440
And I discovered through coaching, oh, this is another way.
00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:38.000
So I think I would probably be in the mental health world.
00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:38.320
Yeah.
00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:43.440
Now I would love to just be a backup dancer for Beyonce, but I don't have the skills.
00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:44.800
I just want to I want to be clear.
00:45:44.800 --> 00:45:47.199
Like I was answering in a realistic fashion.
00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:51.440
If you're saying if you could have any job you want, I would absolutely be a backup dancer for Beyonce.
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:53.519
I would, I that's what I would do.
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:59.039
So do you have imposter syndrome about being a backup dancer for Beyonce or you just don't have the skills?
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:00.400
I don't have the skills.
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:04.320
I don't have the skills required to have imposter syndrome.
00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:06.079
Oh, but that would be so amazing.
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:07.199
That's awesome.
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:08.880
Well, thank you so much, Kimi.
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:11.440
This has been just an amazing conversation.
00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:13.440
I really feel like we could just talk forever.
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:14.480
And thank you so much.
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:15.360
You're welcome.
00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:15.920
This is great.
00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:17.440
And thank you for having me on the podcast.
00:46:17.599 --> 00:46:23.679
And then just quickly before we end, can you tell me about your book and what it's about and when does it come out?
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:24.960
Oh my gosh, yes.
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:32.400
So to this audience, I will say my book represents what it looks like to incorporate science into all of you and then share that with the world.
00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:45.920
And it is about the crisis that's going on in black gynecologic healthcare and how we can learn from what goes on with black women and the gynecologic conditions to help improve care for everyone.
00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:52.400
The book is called A Terrible Strength: The Hidden Crisis of the Black Womb and Your Survival Guide to Healing.
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:55.440
And it published on May 5th, 2026.
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:58.719
And you can pick up a copy anywhere you buy your books.
00:46:58.719 --> 00:46:59.599
Thank you.
00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:00.480
All right.
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:04.960
Thanks for tuning in to the Scientess Podcast.
00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:08.800
If you enjoyed this episode, please follow on your favorite podcast app.
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:12.159
It helps more curious minds like yours discover the show.
00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:20.239
You can find additional bonus content and make a donation to help support the show on our website, www.scientess.org.
00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:23.199
That's S-C-I-E-N-T-E-S-S.
00:47:23.199 --> 00:47:26.000
You can also follow us on Instagram at @scientesspodcast.
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:33.199
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00:47:33.199 --> 00:47:35.360
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00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:47.760
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00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:56.079
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00:47:56.079 --> 00:47:58.239
We'll catch you in the next episode.
00:00:02.560 --> 00:00:10.160
Hello and welcome to the Scientess Podcast, where we talk to women with successful scientific careers about the joys of science.
00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:16.879
I'm your host, Karen Levy, an environmental health scientist at the School of Public Health at University of Washington in Seattle.
00:00:16.879 --> 00:00:22.079
I'm excited to share with you the stories of some pretty incredible women on this podcast.
00:00:22.079 --> 00:00:31.839
My hope is that these interviews will show aspiring young scientists that a career in science is not only possible, but can also be extremely rewarding and a whole lot of fun.
00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:35.359
Let's jump in with today's featured scientists.
00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:37.439
Dr.
00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:50.640
Kemi Dole is a gynecological oncologist and professor in the OBGYN department at University of Washington School of Medicine, and also holds an adjunct faculty position as a health equity researcher in the School of Public Health.
00:00:50.640 --> 00:01:07.120
She is the founding director of the Gynecological Research and Cancer Equity, aka Grace Center at the University of Washington, a multidisciplinary team that investigates causes of disproportionate suffering for benign and oncologic gynecologic health conditions.
00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:19.040
Her work has been published in high-impact journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine and JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association, and she has been funded by NIH, the Robert Wood-Johnson Foundation, and P.
00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:22.480
CORI, the Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute.
00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:32.959
Her research on racial disparities in endometrial cancer is regularly featured by national media outlets, including the New York Times, Good Morning America, NPR, and BET.
00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:41.519
In addition to being a physician scientist, Kemi is an advocate for better outcomes so that all people may live full and healthy reproductive lives.
00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:49.439
She intertwines her research with her community engagement work to create better health and healthcare systems for black women facing endometrial cancer.
00:01:49.439 --> 00:02:03.280
She co-founded Ecana, the Endometrial Cancer Action Network for African Americans, and she is the author of a book titled A Terrible Strength: The Hidden Crisis of the Black Womb and Your Survival Guide to Healing.
00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:05.760
On top of all that, she's also a coach.
00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:07.439
And I'm not talking about baseball.
00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:14.240
She leads KD Coach LLC, an exclusive coaching company for women of color in academic medicine and public health.
00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:24.319
Her flagship coaching program, Get That Grant, helps high-achieving women of color faculty build the academic career of their dreams while securing funding to do the work they love.
00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:26.879
But wait, there's more.
00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:32.479
She's also the first guest on the Scientess podcast who has her own podcast.
00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:48.319
She is the host of the Your Unapologetic Career podcast, where she talks about common challenges that high achievers in academic medicine and public health face and offers strategies to walk away from institutional mindset and toward nourishing and fulfilling careers.
00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:56.879
Kemi, as a person who states on your website that you, quote, use multiple mediums to spread your messages of empowerment far and wide, end quote.
00:02:56.879 --> 00:03:02.800
I can't imagine someone better equipped to channel the joy that we aim for here at the Scientess Podcast.
00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:05.680
So welcome to the show.
00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:06.479
Thank you.
00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:07.439
What a welcome.
00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:08.400
That was so great.
00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:10.159
I'm so happy to be here.
00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:11.199
Great.
00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:14.800
So my first question is when do you sleep?
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Oh my gosh.
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I get this question so much.
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It's so funny.
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I have to tell you, I sleep good.
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I sleep well.
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I am a product of my own coaching.
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Like everything that I teach faculty about efficiency and managing their time and boundaries are the things I have figured out how to do so that I can do all of those things that you say and like enjoy my life and hang out with my kids and read books at night and all of those things.
00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:47.199
So I have to tell you, I sleep a lot.
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My sleep is most compromised when I travel and like change time zones.
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And then you got to wake up for a 7 a.m.
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talk and stuff.
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Those are the times where it suffers.
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But otherwise, I have an alarm that goes off on my phone at nine o'clock and I'm in bed by 9.15.
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I'm going to bed.
00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:06.639
That's impressive from somebody who stays up way too late on the regular.
00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:11.199
I do want to go back and get to the book and the coaching and the podcast.
00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:15.199
But before we go there, I want to wind it all the way back to the beginning.
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Can you tell me about the trajectory of your career?
00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:22.560
When did you first decide you wanted to become a doctor and a scientist?
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Absolutely.
00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:26.800
So I think I was definitely a kid who was like, I'm going to be a doctor.
00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:31.360
My mother was a nurse, and I definitely had this sense of a doctor is like the grown-up job that you have.
00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:34.879
So I definitely would say that before I really knew what I was talking about.
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And then I remember when I went to undergrad, I remember knowing I wouldn't wanted to be pre-med, but I didn't want to, I just felt like studying one science felt boring.
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So I ended up majoring in biomedical engineering because I just felt like, oh, I'll have exposure to all sorts of different science and math and stuff.
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And I did, and it was great.
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But it also taught me that I really like people.
00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:58.560
And like, and like engineering was fun, but I wanted more of that connection.
00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:01.759
So that's how I figured out I wanted to be a physician.
00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:07.279
Then majoring in biomedical engineering with the intention always of becoming a physician.
00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:08.639
I wanted the option.
00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:17.920
So I was like, let me do biomedical engineering because it felt like something I could explore and continue if I really liked it, as opposed to in my thinking.
00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:23.600
I was like, if I major in biology, I don't know where I'm going to go with that almost, if that makes sense.
00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:30.560
I don't know that that was accurate thinking, but I remember feeling like, well, this is an alternative career path in case I don't want to go to medical school.
00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:32.720
So I did end up going to medical school.
00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:37.439
And I thought I was actually going to do infectious disease and focus on HIV.
00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:39.040
I loved women's health so much.
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I loved my OBGY in rotation.
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And it was actually in medical school that I was first introduced to research because I applied for this program that was actually sponsored by the Department of Family Medicine.
00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:53.600
And they introduced you to research and family medicine.
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And as part of that, you had to do a research project.
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And so I did one on domestic violence screening in their outreach clinics.
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And that's when I first kind of got the bug of like, huh, funny.
00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:07.759
If you put on your researcher hat, you can ask people all types of questions.
00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:10.319
Like I it just got me like really intrigued.
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And then I would say the next level of being interested in the science side of it came in residency when it was just so obvious to me how much of care was influenced by non-biological factors.
00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:26.560
And it also was clear to me how complicated it was.
00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:42.720
So I remember when I was going to fellowship, I specifically was looking for training programs that I knew I could get a master's degree, like I could get some very rigorous training in health services research because I wanted to understand better the quality of care differences and things that I was seeing.
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And so that was really that was another kind of point of commitment.
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So I went to UNC, and there is when I could apply and do their master's of science and clinical research program.
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And I also did a postdoc there in cancer care quality.
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So that was kind of the trajectory of why I decided I want to be a clinician scientist.
00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:04.879
Like I don't just want to do one-on-one patient care.
00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:09.360
So you were going through medical school and you saw disparities in treatment.
00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:12.720
Like what got you interested in the specific topics that you look at.
00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:14.079
Oh, the different topics.
00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:14.959
Oh, yeah.
00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:17.839
So I was always attuned towards justice.
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Everybody told me when I was younger, you're going to be a lawyer.
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And I kind of recoiled against that because I actually don't like arguing, but I do like justice.
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And so I remember feeling like in medicine, I just felt like you could really, you could really serve people and help them fight their fights in the world.
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So there was this justice underlying the whole decision to be a physician.
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And then when I got to medical school, my medical school, when I tell you this care was so segregated by insurance and economics, which ends up essentially being racially segregated, it was the type of thing where like the ophthalmology clinic for people with private insurance is on the 10th floor, and the one for people with public insurance is in the basement.
00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:05.279
And it's like same doctors, but like literally, we don't even have these people in the same place.
00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:09.279
So that was so abhorrent to me.
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And I thought naively that that was a part of that institution.
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And so when I went to residency, I chose a hospital that didn't have a VIP floor where I thought I'm like, okay, there's no segregated care.
00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:26.879
Everybody gets care in the same way.
00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:30.079
And that's when I realized, oh, Kami, it's so much more complicated than that.
00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:33.600
And that's when I saw, oh, there are disparities within the same system.
00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:36.240
And there are disparities within the same unit.
00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:45.440
And that's what I mean about that complication is when I started really thinking, this is so much more than implicit bias, or this is so much more than the insurance program.
00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:47.519
Like you have to actually understand baked in.
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Yeah, it's baked in.
00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:52.879
And also the way that it shows up in a given condition is different.
00:08:52.879 --> 00:09:09.519
And I thought that that was really what pulled me towards wanting to disentangle is that you can't look at the disparity around hypertension control and the disparity around uterine cancer diagnosis the same.
00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:21.679
The clinical context of the condition, so that's where the biology comes in, interplays with how the disparity shows up and then how you're going to try to solve the inequity.
00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:24.639
How does it show up differently for those two?
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What do you mean by that?
00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:28.159
Okay, here's a different example.
00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:30.399
I'm gonna give you what's similar and what's different.
00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:31.120
Okay.
00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:37.440
So if we go to heart attacks, so there's that New England Journal of Medicine paper.
00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:58.080
I can't remember what yours published now, it's a while ago, where they had the actors at a cardiology conference and they had black women and black men and white women and white men, and they were all actors, and they read the exact same script and they acted the exact same script, basically giving symptoms that indicated that they were having a heart attack and they needed to go for a catheterization.
00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:04.639
And they clearly found, like without a shadow of the doubt, that black women were the least likely to be referred for the heart attack.
00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:10.000
So these actors are saying the same thing, same lines, but the impression is this person's fine.
00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:19.840
So that issue of black women's pain not being seen or taken seriously is something that we know we see across all types of conditions.
00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:28.080
So that's like the same thing that happens with the laboring mother who's about to give birth and gets turned away from the hospital because they can't see her as vulnerable.
00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:31.279
So in that sense, there are similarities, right?
00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:35.200
But then I'll take it back, I'll take it now to my world.
00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:49.279
If you now you're trying to understand why do we have disparities in ovarian cancer mortality and why do we have disparities in uterine cancer mortality, those reasons are very different because those conditions and how they show up are different.
00:10:49.279 --> 00:11:02.320
So in uterine cancer, there's this whole world of early diagnosis, and there's this whole world of symptoms and how somebody's culture and their experiences interact with how they experience symptoms and then what happens when they go to the doctor.
00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:08.080
In ovarian cancer, most women are diagnosed at stage three or four off the top, off the bat.
00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:11.200
And the disparities of mortality aren't about diagnosis.
00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:16.879
Those disparities are about response to chemotherapy and about the treatment phase.
00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:27.519
So if you are trying to paint one brush and saying, well, access to care is the issue, you're not going to actually be effective in the given condition.
00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:44.480
The fundamental cause theory is one that I'm quite obsessed with because I think it does a really good job of explaining both of those things, which is that there are some fundamental issues that span across all inequities that have to do with these differential access to key resources.
00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:57.200
But then how much that differential access actually impacts mortality outcomes is very dependent on the biology and the specifics and the clinical nature of the disease.
00:11:57.519 --> 00:12:14.480
Sounds like you bring to this your clinical hat, and then you're merging that with your research hat on health disparities, research, and you're able to bring in those details about clinical care to your work.
00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:35.200
And so you were in medical school, you're seeing the disparities, and then you're adding on the research piece to your training, and you made a decision that research is the way to address this, because some clinicians might take it a different way through a business or through a, you know, any any number of things.
00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:40.080
But what is it that drew you to research as a way to address these problems?
00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:52.399
Well, one is that what I how often I would hear and I would learn, well, black women have a worse X or they have worse outcomes with Y, or da-da-da-da-da.
00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:54.960
And then you'd ask the question, well, why is that?
00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:56.720
And the answer is we don't really know why.
00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:04.799
Clinically was not the answer because they were literally telling me, oh, we have all this clinical knowledge, but we have no idea why people who look like you don't do as well with this.
00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:07.919
So that was one of just like, okay, it sounds like we need more research.
00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:23.360
And then secondarily, when then reading the research, so both in residency, but I would say mostly in fellowship, when I was really reading the research on endometrial cancer, so consistently the assumption was this is a biological problem.
00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:28.480
Like we don't know why, but black women have some biological difference, and this is why they don't do well, and that's the end.
00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:30.720
And there's just no curiosity beyond that.
00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:40.639
Meanwhile, as somebody who's in clinical training, watching differential care, watching this issue of a black woman says something, we respond one way, somebody else says something, we respond another.
00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:45.120
You literally can feel and see that there's so much more than biology.
00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:56.320
So that's what drew me to research was recognizing one, the gaps in knowledge, but then two, and maybe even more profoundly, what knowledge is created is not objective.
00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:00.720
And when I understood that, because I mean I was a science girly, science is objective.
00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:03.200
I was like science is there's objective truth, like that's what it is.
00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:16.480
So when I was, when I realized from a scientific standpoint, from a mature clinical and scientific standpoint, oh, the research that is produced can be biased too.
00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:19.039
That's what I was like, okay, I'm coming in here.
00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:30.480
Because we need, we need a counter perspective to this unstated assumption that these problems are being generated because there's something broken about the black woman's body.
00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:35.279
And I mean, there's also what questions do you ask with research?
00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:35.919
Exactly.
00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:40.399
Major biases in which questions we're asking in the first place.
00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:46.240
So you can use research as a tool for many different things, but you have to be asking the right questions.
00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:46.960
Correct.
00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:49.519
And interpreting the anyway, all the things, all the things.
00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:49.840
Yes.
00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:50.480
Yeah.
00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:54.559
So what's your favorite part about doing research?
00:14:54.559 --> 00:15:02.080
Have your interests changed over time, or are they more or less the same, just in differences on a theme?
00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:07.919
I think my favorite part of doing research is the creativity and the flexibility.
00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:17.600
I love that the job of science and research is to ask questions and figure out new ways how to answer them.
00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:20.320
I love the problem solving of research.
00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:22.000
That's the engineering coming through too.
00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:23.279
I just really enjoy that.
00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:28.000
And I just feel like there are so few careers where you just get to ask questions and then answer them.
00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:29.759
So those are many things.
00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:30.879
You asked me for one thing.
00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:33.679
Those are many things I love about research.
00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:40.960
In terms of my research interests, I would say that they have broadened and become more sophisticated.
00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:47.519
So when I started, I would have branded myself as a health services researcher that was interested in quality of care.
00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:53.120
And the two areas I really focused on in my grad program was population-level data analysis.
00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:59.759
So I did a lot of state level analysis using all-payer data and then also patient-reported outcomes.
00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:08.559
So in cancer, especially, that was when there was a big push to say maybe we should ask the patients how bad their nausea is instead of just like us rating it on our own scale.
00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:14.559
So there was a big push at that time to develop these patient-reported measures of a lot of the symptoms that we encounter.
00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:30.879
So between those two, I was thinking, okay, I am going to kind of close this gap around the quality of how we assess treatments with the patient-reported outcomes data and their impact on people, as well as thinking about, again, really classic health services systems research.
00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:37.120
One of my papers for my master's was people being transferred from low volume to high volume centers and that kind of thing.
00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:47.840
And when it was so clear, I mean, I knew this, but seeing over and over how no matter what data set I was looking at or using, black women were always at the bottom.
00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:49.200
They're always a worse outcome.
00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:52.399
It's always an independent variable that predicts some poor outcome.
00:16:52.399 --> 00:17:07.519
That combined with Trayvon Martin's murder, where I think a lot, I know for myself, it was a real moment of like, what can I do in my space to make a difference for my community?
00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:12.640
Those two things combined to make me realize I actually want to take all this I've learned.
00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:14.400
Then this now I'm on the job market.
00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:19.200
I'm like, I want to take all this I've learned and I want to focus on black women and endometrial cancer.
00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:21.200
So it first felt like a narrowing.
00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:23.039
Like I'm, I want to tackle this problem.
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:31.759
The reason why I say it's broadened is because the research showed me that Black women do not experience endometrial cancer just as this isolated cancer event.
00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:35.599
They experience it as the end of a gynecologic life journey.
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:45.920
And so if you don't understand what's happened with people from the time they had their first period, fibroids, et cetera, then you're missing what's going on when they get endometrial cancer at 62.
00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:52.880
And because of that, it actually made me wonder: well, how much of the rest of gynecology works like this too?
00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:59.279
And we have just falsely divided these, this world of benign and cancer.
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:01.200
And so that broadened my interest.
00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:18.960
So now I do research not just specifically on endometrial cancer, but also on hysterectomy rates and fibroids and bleeding and symptoms and abnormal bleeding and anemia and all these things because I realized that all of this actually intertwines to see some of the differential outcomes we see in the gynecologic cancer world.
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:21.440
So in that sense, I feel like I'm broader.
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:26.079
And then the other way I feel like I'm broader is that I love theory.
00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:29.759
I love theory and frameworks and I love applying them.
00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:34.960
I feel like in another life, maybe I would have been more of like a medical sociologist.
00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:37.680
I just think that I love the work that they do.
00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:53.920
So now, especially in more of a mentoring role, I'm really enjoying helping and guiding people on how to take some of these same frameworks and theories I've used and apply them to different populations and how they get adapted and they vary a little bit.
00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:56.960
I find that very intellectually stimulating.
00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:00.000
Combining these interests is really hard to do.
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:06.799
And it sounds like you have done it really effectively by wearing these two hats of clinician and more on the disparities.
00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:07.680
Not easily though.
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:10.160
And also the community engaged research, Karen.
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:10.880
That's the other piece.
00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:13.200
I didn't get any training in community engaged research.
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:18.960
That came after I started on faculty and I was just like, well, I need to engage this survivor community.
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:20.319
I'm gonna learn things from them.
00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:25.279
And I just had no idea how much that would take off as a pillar of my work going forward.
00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:28.640
So that was another shift from the quote unquote plan.
00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:33.839
So you were on the job market and you kind of had a shift when you went on the job market.
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.160
So you did you start at University of Washington?
00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:37.440
Did your career?
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:38.079
Yes.
00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:47.039
And so tell me a little bit about that path to getting the job and starting up your research program and your life here.
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:48.559
Gosh, what version of that?
00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:49.599
Do you want to hear?
00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:50.640
There's like the group.
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:52.240
What version do you want to try?
00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:54.160
There's the PC version.
00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:57.119
Okay, so first of all, by that point I'm married.
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:00.240
And I have unfortunately married another ambitious person.
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:06.720
So my spouse is also an academic clinician, also wants to be a clinician scientist.
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:11.839
So now there's two physician scientists on the job market trying to find a job.
00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:13.519
So just the stress.
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:26.880
I knew I wanted to be competitive going on the job market, and I knew that it was rare for surgical subspecialties to be willing to grant junior faculty any kind of research time because you just make too much money for the hospital.
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:28.640
Your procedures are very lucrative.
00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:33.119
So nobody is interested in paying you to sit in your office and think they want you to cut and sew.
00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:40.799
So I kind of approached that first job search, knowing that I kind of needed a plan to prove I'm a good bet.
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:42.720
Like I'm serious about this research.
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:43.519
This is my plan.
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:48.960
So I had like a five-point, I mean, I had a folder, I got, I had color-coded, I had a I had a five-year plan.
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:50.640
I had a financial ROI.
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:52.400
Like, you're gonna invest this much in me.
00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:53.920
These are how many grants I'm gonna get.
00:20:53.920 --> 00:21:00.720
It was a very aggressive way that I went on the market because I understood, again, that this was, it's very rare.
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:12.480
Like it's not common at all in gynecological oncology for somebody to come in and start off as a clinician scientist, especially somebody who's not lab-based, who doesn't already have a lab and maybe came up through training programs that way.
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:23.200
And then at this, and then also I was balancing my spouse, who also was looking for a job where he could also do health services research, because that's what his interest in, although in a different different area.
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:32.000
So it ultimately ended up that there were three institutions that we were finally seriously looking at, or groups of institutions, I should say.
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:35.519
Like in some places, he would be at one place and I'd be at the other in the same city.
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:51.279
And I ended up choosing University of Washington because it was by far the best microenvironment for my work, meaning that it was a rare division that had a track record of successful gynecologic oncology clinician researchers.
00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:56.000
They hadn't had any health services researchers, but still they had some concept of that.
00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:59.279
And then, two, they kind of were willing to go with my bet.
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:05.200
They were like, You know, I mean, we'll give you a few years to see if you can get this all off the ground.
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:08.079
And then, you know, the people and the leadership really spoke to me.
00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:16.000
Like, I felt like, you know what, I could fall flat on my face, but only because the work is hard, not because I would be fighting against my environment.
00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:18.640
How do you think you knew your value so well?
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:26.960
I think a lot of people go out on the job market, especially at the assistant level, they are just hoping to get a job, period.
00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:30.160
And it sounds like you really knew your value.
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:36.880
Why do you think you had that confidence and that understanding of the way the system worked so well at that point in your life?
00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:38.720
I actually talk about this in my book.
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:41.200
So I won't give you all the details because you need to go out and get my book.
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:45.920
But I would say on one level, I had already hit a rock bottom.
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:52.400
And I had already been through experiences in my life where I'm like, oh, my future's not guaranteed.
00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.039
You know, like I I've I had already lost everything.
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:59.440
And I don't, I wouldn't want to wish that on anybody for sure.
00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:11.680
But there was something about my experiences in undergrad and what I went through that made it so that my approach going forward was just, I'm gonna try my hardest.
00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:13.359
Like I'm leaving everything on the field.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:14.720
There's no plan B.
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:22.319
And in that sense, there's a courage that comes with that that overcomes the sense of imposter syndrome or whatever.
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:27.200
Because for myself, I just have to know I literally gave it everything I had.
00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:28.640
And then if it fails, it fails.
00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:29.920
But I have to know that.
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:44.000
So it's that engine of achievement that combined with by the time I'm coming out of fellowship, I had receipts, for lack of a better word, you know, to use the to use the term the kids use, which is that as a fellow, I had to figure out how to pay my tuition.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.440
I had to figure out how to pay my salary for the years that I was doing my master's.
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:48.559
I had to figure all that out.
00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:54.480
So I had to learn how to write grants as a fellow so that I could figure out how to get onto a training grant.
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:59.119
I was the first MD ever accepted into the postdoc that I was accepted into.
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:03.440
It was like a very school of public health PhD, very traditional postdoc.
00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:08.400
So I guess I had already exercised some of that muscle of like, okay, I know how to write.
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:12.880
And I had to do a lot of people, but I started to learn the game.
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:16.480
And again, that sense of I'm gonna give this my best.
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:24.480
When I am really trying to learn or do something, in that case, it was learn how to write grants and learn all of that.
00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:28.240
I don't have a lot of embarrassment about not knowing what I'm doing.
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:31.359
I'm just going to get the information that I need from whoever's in front of me.
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:34.640
So I did get the training grant, and then I went on to keep writing grants.
00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:37.839
So I got, I also got an institutional cancer center award.
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:39.920
I got a national foundation award.
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:49.279
So I kind of came out of fellowship like these aren't huge grants, but I'm not scared of the ability to have to write a few pages and get somebody to give me money.
00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:51.839
So that was another kind of piece of confidence.
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:53.680
Yeah, that's an amazing story.
00:24:53.839 --> 00:25:00.799
And you've given a great plug for your book because now you want to go read it and fill in some of those details.
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:09.759
And what happened with your spouse?
00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:11.920
Did they did he get it?
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:12.480
He did, yeah.
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:14.079
So he also it was the best.
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:15.440
Yeah, I should have said that.
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:20.319
I I should say I'm I get very used to not talking about him because he is a private person.
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:23.359
He is amazing, but also he does not care about any of this.
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:26.319
So he also had a good setup.
00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:28.319
And we had, it was literally a balance.
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:31.119
Like for neither one of us was it perfect, right?
00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:33.119
First, I studied black women with uterine cancer.
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:36.079
I'm moving to Seattle with a population of 4% African American.
00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:38.559
Like I understood, and people were like, What are you doing?
00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:45.839
And it created a challenge for me because from the very beginning, my work had to have a regional or national scope.
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.920
I could not do what a lot of clinician scientists do, which is recruit from their clinic.
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:52.480
So all that was never aligned for me.
00:25:52.480 --> 00:26:03.519
So it was hard, but I'm actually grateful for it because it allowed my work to be more impactful and generalizable earlier because, like, my career development projects were national projects.
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:05.279
I had to recruit from all sorts of sites.
00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:07.839
So that was a downside for me, right?
00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:13.519
But also he had a good setup in terms of a place where, again, he had protected research time.
00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:19.039
He's an interventional cardiologist, he's interested in studying peer review and the quality of care in that world.
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:21.599
So it just worked out that it made sense for both of us.
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:24.000
Whereas there were other people that's an optimization problem, right?
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:24.559
Exactly.
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:27.519
We just had to optimize for each person and then go from there.
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:32.319
I mean, if this was a relationship podcast, I could talk to you a lot more about how to.
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:45.680
I don't think that there's a lot of good quality conversation about how people navigate professional ambition and career ambition with their partners, especially centered on women.
00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:50.319
And it bothers me because I I feel like people kind of fly blind.
00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:54.240
And I felt like we were to some extent, but we also learned a lot of things.
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:57.200
I don't know, maybe that's another book, but anyway, we made it through.
00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:00.720
We sort of think everybody's flying blind at that point.
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:03.279
And you don't know what's gonna happen.
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:08.559
And so you kind of have to take a leap of faith and hope that whatever position you start in works out.
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:14.400
And if it doesn't, you move on to another, yep, another situation, I suppose.
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.440
So you mentioned a little bit about imposter syndrome.
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.680
Are there other times when you've had imposter syndrome?
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:24.799
You mentioned not having it actually, but what would you talk about about imposter syndrome?
00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:28.319
Have you had it in your career and how have you overcome it?
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:29.440
Okay.
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:34.000
Um I have to think about what I'm gonna say because I have a whole episode on imposter syndrome.
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:36.160
I feel so strongly about this topic.
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:39.119
First of all, have I had imposter syndrome?
00:27:39.119 --> 00:28:02.960
Yes, when we're very clear about the definition of what imposter syndrome is, which is that I have had times where even though there is documented evidence that I am capable of doing something, I still feel somehow that I might not be capable of doing it again, or that it was a fluke, like whatever the evidence presented was just a fluke.
00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:07.920
And so therefore, in the moment, I don't feel as confident as I want to feel in that moment.
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:09.839
And that's how I think of imposter syndrome.
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:15.359
There's evidence already, and you're not incorporating that evidence into your confidence.
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:18.480
And so you feel like an imposter, you feel like a fake.
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:19.920
So I've experienced that.
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:24.319
When I started my postdoc, I felt imposter syndrome because I was like, what am I doing here?
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:25.359
These are real PhDs.
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:28.799
Kevin, like, I'm like, Kevin, these people, these are real scientists.
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:32.160
You somehow smooth talked your way into here.
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:34.319
They're gonna figure out you don't know what you're doing.
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:36.880
Like you just got a degree two seconds ago.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:39.920
That was because you were a clinician and you were going into the state.
00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:41.680
Yes, and because I was going in history.
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:42.400
Exactly.
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:49.920
And so I just felt like the these are the real scientists, and I'm here playing at science because my path had been different.
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:52.240
So I remember feeling that.
00:28:52.240 --> 00:29:06.079
And for me, the mitigation of that and not letting the imposter syndrome take over was honestly being present to my own contributions and recognizing, like, oh, you're you're talking and contributing just like everybody else.
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:08.160
You're asking questions just like everybody else.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:10.720
You put together a proposal or whatever, and it's reviewed.
00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:13.680
And it's like, this is this is this sounds like everybody else's review.
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:18.880
So basically, just incorporating the evidence early that there isn't this complete mismatch.
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:24.000
Frankly, sometimes you see the mediocrity of other people's work and you're like, I'm fine.
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:29.839
I mean, I and I think everybody can appreciate this right now in 2026 in the United States of America.
00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:31.519
We got to get rid of imposter syndrome.
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:37.200
We have literal nut jobs running the country who I want to be clear, are not swift.
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:39.440
Like these people are not intelligent.
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:41.039
You can tell how they talk.
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:44.960
You're like, oh my gosh, you are this is we're not, we're not quick here.
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:53.680
So I just think that there is a way in which, if you're open to also accumulating more data, it does help with imposter syndrome.
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:58.240
Now, the reason why I said I feel strongly about it is because I think some people misdiagnose imposter syndrome.
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:04.319
Because if you actually haven't done it yet and you're like, I'm terrified and maybe I can't do it or whatever, that's not imposter syndrome.
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:05.119
That's just you're scared.
00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:06.079
You haven't done it yet.
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:08.480
That's fear or excitement, et cetera.
00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:12.559
Sometimes people have skill gaps and then they keep calling imposter syndrome.
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:18.000
And if you don't know how to do something, then closing the gap in how to do it is the answer, right?
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:19.680
Not just being more confident.
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:20.720
So I'll leave it there.
00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:21.359
Yeah.
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:22.079
Interesting.
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:23.599
I like that distinction.
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:24.160
Okay.
00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:28.960
What are ways that being a woman has positively impacted your career?
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:31.039
Oh my God, I'm so glad I'm a woman.
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:31.839
Are you kidding me?
00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:33.920
First of all, I think okay.
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:35.359
Okay, so many reasons.
00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:37.599
One, um, it's so weird, right?
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:39.039
Because what's the counterfactual?
00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:42.000
I don't know what it's, I don't know what it's like not to be a woman.
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:49.599
But I would say I think there's probably a reason why most of my team are women of color, not just women of women of color.
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:55.680
I always forget what broader academia is like until I go to conferences and stuff, or I go visit another department.
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:57.599
I'm like, oh, that's right, all dudes.
00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:00.000
So what is the shift that I'm feeling?
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:09.839
One, I think because of socialization, not because of binary essentialist gender politics, but because of socialization.
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:25.519
People who identify as women or femmes, I will say, tend to have a different level of emotional intelligence and emotional responsibility for themselves that I enjoy in a workplace.
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:37.599
So it doesn't mean we're all perfect, but I appreciate the fact that I feel like I bring that to my work and that my colleagues who are mostly women that I work with bring that to their work because the work is hard enough.
00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:46.640
And I don't like to have to add managing somebody's personality on top of that or managing their unrecognized emotional needs.
00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:51.599
Another reason is I study women, me personally.
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:54.400
So I study gynecology, et cetera.
00:31:54.400 --> 00:32:08.720
And so given that sexism is rampant and we still have major problems with access and equality with regard to women, I personally feel really good about doing work that uplifts women, my community.
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:10.319
That's really important to me.
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:15.599
And I would just add, because I can't really separate being black and being a woman, I think it's all the same thing.
00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:18.240
I feel the same way about being a black woman.
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:26.160
I feel like though we live in a society that constantly makes things harder from that perspective.
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:31.440
I also get to pull on a community of people that are still here anyway.
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:36.559
And I think that there is something kind of unstoppable about that.
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:40.240
Like it's almost like there, it's like the underdog advantage.
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:45.759
It's like that advantage of the system isn't built for me, but I'm still gonna be here makes a win so much sweeter.
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:48.480
And maybe anybody, any woman in science can appreciate that.
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:49.519
It's like it just makes sense.
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:52.480
It's like how we felt about Christina Koch and the Artemis too, right?
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:55.359
Everybody's like, ha! It's like, why do you feel that way?
00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:57.359
Because the win is so much bigger.
00:32:57.359 --> 00:32:59.119
So yeah, those are all the reasons.
00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:03.680
And you have to come up with creative ways to navigate the system that maybe wasn't made for you.
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:04.319
Oh, yeah.
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:06.079
You I mean, I know we're being positive here.
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:08.079
So I'm not trying to like polyana all of it.
00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:15.200
There's some things I need to change, but I would never discount also the pleasure, right, in doing well in a system not built for you.
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:19.359
There, there's pleasure in that of being like, oh, it's like that feeling of competence, right?
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:20.880
It's that feeling of like, I did it.
00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:22.160
And that that is great.
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:26.559
Yeah, it's like an additional opportunity to feel a sense of accomplishment.
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:28.480
Like that take on it.
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:29.519
That's interesting.
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:32.319
What about men in your career?
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:40.960
And have you had examples of where men have been really great allies or mentors or helped helped pave that way for you?
00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:42.559
Yeah, I definitely have.
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:44.720
I mean, oh my God, I definitely have.
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:48.480
I have a mentor, a distant career mentor, I would say.
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:52.240
He definitely just like emailed me out of the blue kind of thing and was like, hey, I've seen your work.
00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:52.799
It's really good.
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:54.720
You should come give a talk at my institution type thing.
00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:55.920
And I was like, okay.
00:33:55.920 --> 00:34:00.000
And I came to the institution, the way that this man treated me.
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:03.920
I remember sitting here thinking, like, I mean, I just had this moment of like, wow.
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:06.480
He was just really like, we're so happy you're here.
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:10.239
He introduced me to all the different faculty, was talking about my work.
00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:15.679
And I think I was so taken aback because I'm so used to having to be like, I deserve to be here.
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:25.840
And this is my like, I'm so used to doing all that work that to have somebody in a position of power, department chair, man, you know, come in and just be like, you don't even have to do all that work.
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:28.079
I'm happy to tell them how amazing you are.
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:33.039
And and then just the care in the visit and all of that, it really shifted something for me, actually.
00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:35.199
It happened maybe three or four years into my career.
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:41.039
And it was kind of the first time where I was like, oh, I'm not just doing well enough, you know, like, okay, I'm doing well.
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:42.000
I got my grants.
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:43.760
My work is really meaningful here.
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:57.440
So it was, it was an ally move because that's really interesting because it's such a small act of kindness or act of grace that yeah, it had a big impact on you that he might not even, he might not even remember any huge impact on me.
00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:05.360
Now I stayed in touch because I was like, wait, you are very small, but you're right though, because those are the things that's like there are some things you can't give yourself, right?
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:06.719
This is why we all need allies, right?
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.440
This is why allies matter, because we all say, listen, women can't fight alone.
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:10.800
Black women can't fight alone, right?
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:11.840
We all need the allies.
00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:17.599
But that moment showed me the power of endorsement almost, like the power of that is real.
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:21.039
It was a sponsorship power, and it made a difference for me.
00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:26.639
And I know that people have had similar experiences where they're like, yeah, it really and also not wanting anything, right?
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:28.880
Not there's no like, oh, now I did this for you.
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:29.280
Nothing.
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:31.760
Just like, no, I just like to spotlight great scholars.
00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:32.320
That's it.
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:32.719
Yeah.
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:37.119
And also then it's also exhausting to have to promote yourself.
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:40.800
And there's the expectation should be that you don't have to do that.
00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:43.199
If your work is good, somebody will do that for you.
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:47.360
Yeah, but except that's literally not, as you know, that is not actually how it works.
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:48.719
But yes, ideally.
00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:51.199
So it was like, I think I had that moment of the ideal.
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:51.920
That was amazing.
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:53.519
And how about your spouse?
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:57.199
You said you both are academics, you're both having these careers.
00:35:57.199 --> 00:35:58.559
How do you balance that?
00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:00.159
How do you balance the workload?
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:01.199
You said you have kids.
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:02.559
A ton of support.
00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:04.159
I mean, paid support.
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:05.840
This is the other hill I'll die on.
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:08.639
First of all, we don't have anybody, we don't have family that lived in the area.
00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:12.239
We don't have a grandma that lives in the house, we don't have nothing, nothing like that.
00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:13.280
We're out here on our own.
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:14.079
We have two kids.
00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:19.760
When we moved here, our son was one and a half, and then we had our daughter a couple of years later.
00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:26.239
So one reason why it works is because we spend a lot of money on support.
00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:35.039
So we have a full-time nanny that we pay full-time over the table, payroll tax, benefits, everything full-time.
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:38.559
Number two, we have cleaning service that comes to clean the house.
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:45.920
Number three, I get my lunches delivered because it's one less thing I have to worry about because a salad company delivers salad.
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:47.760
So I don't have to worry about lunches.
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:53.119
Oh, we do babysitters, we try to do a babysitter at least once a month so we can go out, just the two of us.
00:36:53.119 --> 00:37:04.480
One way that we do have family help that is no small thing at all, is that my in-laws will take our kids for a week so we can go on vacation once a year, which is huge.
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:04.960
Yeah.
00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:07.679
That's I love that it's so that you can go on vacation.
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:08.079
Yes.
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:09.119
It's so you can work.
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:11.039
No, we go on vacation.
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:12.639
So I'm just emphasizing this.
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:15.599
There are other things, obviously, like good communication.
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.599
We still love each other, super helpful.
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:18.800
We also like each other.
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:33.440
There are these other things that we've learned how to manage, but I don't think that there's enough really explicit conversation about the fact that both of our retirement accounts would be higher if we spent less money on the support.
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:37.280
But it means that when we come home, we can focus on each other and the family.
00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:38.880
And that was a big thing for me.
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:43.519
I don't want to spend all weekend doing domestic labor and not connecting with you and the kids.
00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:45.920
When we get home from work, I want us to connect.
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:48.000
Oh, and also not too many kid activities.
00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:54.079
So I don't know if you've heard of the saying, it's like you could have a parent-focused family, a kid-focused family, or a family-focused family.
00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:59.920
We really try to be a family-focused family, which means that we're trying to make decisions that are good for the whole unit.
00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:04.719
And so that means that, yeah, sometimes my kids want to do like this activity and four more.
00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:10.559
And I'm like, okay, you get one during the season and you get one, and that's already enough.
00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:14.480
Like baseball and softball season happening at the same time is enough.
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:16.960
We can barely make it to all the practices in games.
00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:20.000
So that is another way that we make it work.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:20.400
Yeah.
00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:28.719
I get the sense that you're very strategic about what you say no to, but you also say yes to a lot of things.
00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:36.239
And so you have your academic career and you have coaching and writing and podcasting.
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:41.199
So, how do you make decisions about what do you say no to and what do you say yes to?
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:41.840
Mm-hmm.
00:38:42.320 --> 00:39:01.199
When I first started, I would say that I was very good at saying no to things that I could not see how they clearly and specifically supported my career goals, meaning that I have these are my clinical goals, these are my teaching-oriented goals, these are my research goals.
00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:10.480
If somebody's bringing me an opportunity and I can't see clearly how does this directly support this goal, then I would say no, because that's not moving me towards where I need to be.
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:18.639
As you go along, I say this to the early career researchers for sure, as you go along, when you're very good about that, you will then produce work, right?
00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:21.039
Like you'll start meeting those goals that you set for yourself.
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:22.639
That creates more opportunity.
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:35.679
So now it's about how do I discern, right, what opportunity, because now they all fit within my goals, but what opportunities make sense for me in this season and where I'm trying to go next.
00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:42.079
And that I fully use my own internal compass of what makes me feel alive, what makes me excited.
00:39:42.079 --> 00:40:01.039
Because I remember learning this in medical school, honestly, going through the rotations, which is that if you pick what you do based on your perception of one, how prestigious it's going to be, or maybe how easy it's going to be, or whatever, none of that will make up for doing something you don't enjoy.
00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:02.480
It will not make up for it.
00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:06.000
So I saw that, or at least for me, the equation never works.
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:25.840
And the opposite is true, which is that if you are doing something that you genuinely enjoy, even when it gets challenging, I mean, the work you really care about it, or the opportunity, the committee, whatever, even when it gets challenging, you will have access to more energy for that than you would if you only did it because, well, I'm just trying to check this box, or somebody told me to do it.
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:28.000
So I really go by that.
00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:30.480
So all the things you said, yes, they're they're a lot.
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:38.000
And I don't do them alone anymore, but they fuel themselves in that they are nourishing to me.
00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:40.960
So working on them replenishes me.
00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:46.559
So I don't feel like, oh my God, I can't, unless I just do something terrible and overschedule myself like crazy.
00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:49.039
But that's why my assistant helps me not do that.
00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:50.880
I can completely relate to that.
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:52.719
I mean, this podcast is a great example of it.
00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:53.280
Exactly.
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:54.079
Fun.
00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:55.519
I'm really enjoying it.
00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:58.880
And so I'm doing it, even though you know it's not a good thing.
00:40:58.880 --> 00:40:59.760
You got a lot to do with them.
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:00.639
Exactly.
00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:01.119
Exactly.
00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:01.599
Exactly.
00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:04.480
Something that, yeah, it may brings me joy.
00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:08.000
So speaking of that, what is it that brings you joy day to day?
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:08.960
What are your hobbies?
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:10.239
How do you treat yourself?
00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:10.639
Yeah.
00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:12.000
So I'm a big reader.
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:14.239
I love sci-fi and fantasy books.
00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:20.480
I love romance novels, and I love nonfiction, like theoretical physics.
00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:24.800
I just really love nerding out on the universe, basically, for lack of a better word.
00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:26.159
So reading is a big one.
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:31.760
Recently, one of my research coordinators, Gen Z, introduced me to this concept of cozy games.
00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:33.920
These are video games that are just relaxing.
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:35.280
They're not competitive.
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:44.239
So I have been playing something called Camp Grove, which I don't know, you just go around and help out the bears work out their emotional problems and you make food for them.
00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:45.119
It's great.
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:47.599
And you fish and you just have a good old time.
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:48.719
So that's very new.
00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:50.079
That's within the last year.
00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:51.360
So I like doing that.
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:55.440
And this is gonna be so cliche, but I like genuinely like my kids.
00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:57.760
They're really funny, especially they're 11 and 7.
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:03.679
So I'm in this beautiful window post being little kid, but they're not really teenagers yet.
00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:07.280
And they are really fun right now and really funny.
00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:13.599
So laughing with them and hearing them talk about their day, genuinely joy, genuinely joyful.
00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:14.000
Yeah.
00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:16.480
They're pretty fun still when they get to be teenagers.
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:18.719
It's just uh they get they're they get interesting.
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:19.280
Okay.
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:22.159
Well, we'll we'll see how that's in conversations with them.
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:27.679
And then how do you take care of your body and stay physically and mentally fit?
00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:28.719
Oh my gosh.
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:34.880
Okay, we're long on recording, so I'll save the little story of my knee injury, but I would say now I walk every day.
00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:43.280
So I usually walk two miles in the morning on a treadmill in my basement, and that keeps me sane and also helps with my cardiovascular risk factors.
00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:54.079
And then I have been in physical therapy for almost two years, and I go twice a week, and that's for my knee, and that's quite a that ends up feeling like quite a workout.
00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:56.559
So that's what I do physically.
00:42:56.559 --> 00:42:58.880
Mentally, I'm a big journaler.
00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:04.400
So even if it's only a couple lines, I have structured journals, unstructured journals, I have a reading journal.
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:08.880
I just I get my stuff out in writing.
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:10.079
So that helps too.
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:15.920
And then, you know, my really good friends who are always a voice note or a text away, all those things help a lot.
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:18.320
Well, I know you're a coach.
00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:18.800
Uh-huh.
00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:25.199
And so you have a lot of advice for other people coming up.
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:29.280
And I wonder if there's some nugget that you'd like to share.
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:33.920
And I'll just say, well, go and listen to your podcast to uh so many more.
00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:34.800
Lots.
00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:36.400
So yeah, lots of nuggets.
00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:45.599
But is there anything you could say, like if you could give one piece of advice to a young woman coming up in science, anything you could distill it down to?
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:48.800
Um I've stumped you.
00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:50.800
Because I'm trying to distill it down.
00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:51.280
I know.
00:43:51.599 --> 00:44:06.320
I would say that if you're a young woman coming up in science, it is likely that you have the ability to work very hard at Something and to persevere, you probably already are a fairly resilient person.
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:14.079
And I want you to understand that you're always going to be choosing on behalf of what are you working hard.
00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:20.639
And if you want to feel like you lead your career, make sure that you are working hard for the things that you care about.
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:23.679
Make sure you're working hard for the science you care about.
00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:29.199
Make sure that you are receiving the benefit of all of your hard work.
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:30.559
That's what I would say.
00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:32.159
That's fantastic.
00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:33.360
I love that.
00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:40.800
And I will say that I feel like I could talk to you forever and pick up so much wisdom.
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:52.079
But again, I'm just gonna refer the listeners to the Your Unapologetic Career podcast where you can hear Kemi talk at length about so many different topics.
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:54.719
And I think there's so much to learn from you.
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:59.519
Okay, so now if you weren't a scientist, how would you spend your days?
00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:00.320
What would you do?
00:45:00.320 --> 00:45:03.119
And it's a kind of a funny question for you because you do a lot of things.
00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:03.840
I know, right?
00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:06.880
Directly science, but I know, but I'm trying to think.
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:09.679
So I'll take out the author part too, because that's like from the science.
00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:13.840
So I would say I would probably I feel like I would probably be in mental health.
00:45:13.840 --> 00:45:20.320
I think I would be like a therapist, or I could see that it's like kind of a cousin to the coaching world.
00:45:20.320 --> 00:45:29.199
I just get so much benefit out of pouring into people and motivating and inspiring people and helping people out of their pain in different ways.
00:45:29.199 --> 00:45:33.199
And I feel like medicine actually just was one way to do that.
00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:35.440
And I discovered through coaching, oh, this is another way.
00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:38.000
So I think I would probably be in the mental health world.
00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:38.320
Yeah.
00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:43.440
Now I would love to just be a backup dancer for Beyonce, but I don't have the skills.
00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:44.800
I just want to I want to be clear.
00:45:44.800 --> 00:45:47.199
Like I was answering in a realistic fashion.
00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:51.440
If you're saying if you could have any job you want, I would absolutely be a backup dancer for Beyonce.
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:53.519
I would, I that's what I would do.
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:59.039
So do you have imposter syndrome about being a backup dancer for Beyonce or you just don't have the skills?
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:00.400
I don't have the skills.
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:04.320
I don't have the skills required to have imposter syndrome.
00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:06.079
Oh, but that would be so amazing.
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:07.199
That's awesome.
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:08.880
Well, thank you so much, Kimi.
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:11.440
This has been just an amazing conversation.
00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:13.440
I really feel like we could just talk forever.
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:14.480
And thank you so much.
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:15.360
You're welcome.
00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:15.920
This is great.
00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:17.440
And thank you for having me on the podcast.
00:46:17.599 --> 00:46:23.679
And then just quickly before we end, can you tell me about your book and what it's about and when does it come out?
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:24.960
Oh my gosh, yes.
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:32.400
So to this audience, I will say my book represents what it looks like to incorporate science into all of you and then share that with the world.
00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:45.920
And it is about the crisis that's going on in black gynecologic healthcare and how we can learn from what goes on with black women and the gynecologic conditions to help improve care for everyone.
00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:52.400
The book is called A Terrible Strength: The Hidden Crisis of the Black Womb and Your Survival Guide to Healing.
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:55.440
And it published on May 5th, 2026.
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:58.719
And you can pick up a copy anywhere you buy your books.
00:46:58.719 --> 00:46:59.599
Thank you.
00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:00.480
All right.
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:04.960
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00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:08.800
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00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:12.159
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00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:20.239
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00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:23.199
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00:47:23.199 --> 00:47:26.000
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00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:33.199
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00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:47.760
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00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:56.079
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00:47:56.079 --> 00:47:58.239
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