Testosterone: Do We All Need a Boost?

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Should you take testosterone? Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and this
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is Science Versus. All over the internet, people are saying
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that you need to be thinking about your testosterone. Taking
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T used to be something mostly done by bodybuilders, but
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now it's pretty mainstream, with prescriptions for T going up
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more than 10 times over the last two decades.
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That's according to an analysis from the New York Times.
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And our obsession with testosterone reached new heights when earlier
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this year, U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth announced that he
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wants to screen soldiers for low testosterone in order to
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create a high-T department of war.
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Why?
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As we know, the modern battlefield is brutal and unrelenting.
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It requires and demands maximum psychological and mental readiness.
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And online, you'll hear that we're in the midst of
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a testosterone crisis, with T levels apparently plummeting among men,
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who say that it's making them miserable. There's tons of
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videos out there where young guys give each other tips
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on signs to look out for to show that your
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testosterone is low. You get anxious out of nowhere, you
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can't grow facial hair, you stop caring about a lot
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of things, and you're awake at 3am every single night.
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Influencers tell us that women need to be thinking about
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their testosterone too, especially after menopause. And loads of folks,
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including celebrities like Joe Rogan and Halle Berry, swear that
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once they took extra testosterone, their life got better. They
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say their sex life improved. They felt stronger and more energized.
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Yeah, it makes a big difference. F * * * yeah.
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My brain fog basically disappeared.
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My libido came back. I actually feel like a man.
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I don't let s * * * slide.
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I feel like I have a lot more work ethic,
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more motivation, and I just want to beat my shit
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all day.
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Many women tell me they have better focus, they feel
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like they want to do more things than they did before,
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and they finally feel like themselves again.
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So what is going on here?
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Should we all be worrying about testosterone and taking a
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little tea on the side? Or is this toxic masculinity on, well, steroids?
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When it comes to testosterone, there's a lot of... I
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just want to beat my shit all day. But then
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there's science.
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Science versus testosterone is coming up. If you have a
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testosterone curious friend, share this episode with them. Let them
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know the real science on testosterone, which is coming up
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after the break. Welcome back today on the show, The
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Science of Testosterone. Been in the news a lot recently
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and all over social media to tell us all about it.
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We have, of course, the beefiest, buffiest science journalist, senior producer,
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Rose Rimmel.
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Hi, Wendy.
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Hi, Rose. Let's just jump in. And let's look at
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the biggest, literally.
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The biggest claim out there about testosterone, which is, Can
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it make you stronger?
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Bigger muscles, stronger. Bigger muscles. That's right. That's right. Which,
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you know, lots of people want right now. Could it help?
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So I talked about this with a scientist who specializes
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in studying testosterone. In fact, Wendy, he's responsible for some
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of the seminal research in this space. Was that a
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pun on semen?
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I got it.
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Good, good, good.
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I'm Shailendra Basin. And I'm professor of medicine at the
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Harvard Medical School.
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Schellinger said that early in his career, there was actually
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a big debate among scientists about this very question. Whether
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taking testosterone actually does make you beefier or more athletic.
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So on the one hand, you had athletes that were
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getting into trouble for taking anabolic steroids, which are basically
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like souped up derivatives of testosterone. They're also sometimes called androgens.
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So take the famous case of an Olympic runner named
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Ben Johnson.
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This was in late 1980s. He was a sprinter, had
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a record, broke the records, and he was using anabolic steroids.
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He admitted to it, was disqualified. But it was all
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over the news.
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Rumors have persisted about Johnson, who set staggering records in
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the past 18 months.
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Now those rumors appear to be confirmed. The implications are enormous.
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It's a very sad day. you know, for athletics.
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As a whole.
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So even back then they knew testosterone could make someone
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a faster runner.
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That's why you weren't allowed to take it, right? It's funny, like,
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in the sports world, that was believed widely, so much
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so that the Olympic Committee was like, no, no, you
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can't take that, it's not fair. But in the science world,
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it was not yet widely accepted that this was even true.
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So Schallender brought up the case of Ben Johnson because,
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you know, this was in the 80s. He was sort
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of beginning his career. And that made a big impression
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on him because that same year that Ben Johnson was
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disqualified for using a steroid, there was this paper that
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came out by a respected endocrinologist that said.
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There's no evidence that androgens have anabolic effects. They increase
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muscle mass or strength or performance. The implication being that
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People who are abusing anabolic steroids are misguided.
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There were some studies that I looked at this and
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found they often didn't really find an effect. But people
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in the, you know, the world of athletics, they would
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look at these studies and they'd be like, well, yeah,
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you didn't use a high enough dose. This is not
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the dose that we would expect people in the bodybuilding community,
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for example, to use. So Schallender and some colleagues, they
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wanted to get to the bottom of this question. So
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they designed this great study. So they gave big doses
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of testosterone to healthy men. These were guys in their
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20s and 30s. They got about 40 people. Some of
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them got testosterone, but some of them got placebo. And
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they also had some of the guys lift weights and
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some of the guys didn't do any exercise. This went
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on for 10 weeks. Meanwhile, they were, like, monitoring the
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guys' diets, making sure they were eating about the same
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number of calories, same protein. So it was pretty thorough. Yeah.
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And they were checking to see at the end of
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the 10 weeks, did people's muscles get bigger? Could they
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lift more weight?
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Surely.
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It must work. Well, here's what happened.
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Okay.
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So, first of all, everybody who weight trained saw an improvement.
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They got bigger and stronger. Not too surprising. Great. Thank you.
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But the effect was a lot bigger for the guys
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on T versus the guys on placebo. So they had
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been doing stuff like squats with barbells. And at the
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end of the trial, they could squat– the guys on
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T could squat 40% more weight while the guys on
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placebo only 20% more. Yeah, that's right.
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I mean, you– I know it's so hard to know
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what's real and what's not, but there's a whole concept
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in weightlifting around whether you're juiced or whether you're natural.
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And you see these guys and so clearly juiced up
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with testosterone. Yeah. If you were here to tell me
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that this is all placebo, I mean, like... That would
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be wild. Right. But okay. So it is real. It's real.
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And even the guys that didn't do any weightlifting, but
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were on T, saw gains.
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Yeah.
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They, you know, they sat on their asses for 10
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weeks but took tea. They actually put on slightly more
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muscle than the guys who went to the gym and
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lifted weights but were on placebo. But were not, oh,
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not taking testosterone. Wow, that's how good it is. Which
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is totally unfair. Totally unfair. Mm-hmm. So Schallender and his team,
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they wrote all this up and put it in a paper.
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It was published in the New England Journal of Medicine
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July 4th, 1996. And it immediately changed the academic view.
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After that, nobody has ever questioned this.
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Yeah, and since then, there have been plenty of other
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studies showing this and showing that you don't have to
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be a cis man for this to work. Researchers have
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also shown that adult women who take tea will put
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on muscle, as well as transgender men. And do we
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know exactly how it works?
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How is testosterone stimulating muscle growth?
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So we know that the testosterone will actually tell your
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stem cells to become muscle cells. And so that turns
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them into the fibers that make up your muscles. They
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literally get thicker because of this. That's crazy. It really
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does work. Testosterone.
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Now I'm guessing we're going to talk about the risks
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later in the show.
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No, that's the end of the episode, actually.
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Great.
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Go for it. Live your dreams. Hack your muscles. But yeah,
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but before we get to the risks, let's look at
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some of these other claims. Okay. So the next one
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I want to talk about is the idea of testosterone
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making you more aggressive. Because a lot of guys online,
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when they talk about this, they make it sound like
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you're going to go from like Keanu Reeves and Bill
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and Ted to Keanu Reeves and John Wick.
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I would say John Wick was fairly even keeled. I
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don't know if he was angry if I were to
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get into the psychology of Keanu Reeves.
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But he was an ass-kicker. But he was an ass-kicker, excellent, yes.
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And there is this concept of roid rage, right?
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This idea you take a bunch of steroids, you get angry,
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you get mad.
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You get even.
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Yes.
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Is it true? I talked about this with Justin Corre.
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He is a social psychologist at Nipissing University in Ontario, Canada.
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This is a hot topic in the U.S.
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Right now.
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Justin's watching the news. I like it. A scientist with
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a finger on the pulse.
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Yes.
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And actually, he's been studying testosterone and aggression for his
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whole career. And what he says is, like, first of all,
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there's a lot of reason to think testosterone is tied
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to aggression. You know, think about males, male animals fighting
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for mates, like deer, you know, locking antlers. You can
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probably visualize that right now. Very classic example. And that
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is testosterone-fueled behavior. We know that because if you castrate
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those deer stags, I guess, they no longer do that.
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That's an experiment that's been done. And, you know, when
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you castrate a male animal, you're basically taking away his testosterone.
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Yes.
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But the story of testosterone is a lot more complex
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than that, and that's especially true in people. And this
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is what Justin studies. So let me tell you how
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Justin studies aggression in the lab. Great. He has people
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play this game with this super fun sounding name.
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Point subtraction aggression paradigm. We don't tell them it's called that,
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but we just tell them it's a computer game they're playing.
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Point subtraction aggression. Paradigm. Paradigm.
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Great.
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In terms of like how fun this game is, I
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would put it somewhere between like Pong and that test
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that they make you do at the eye doctor to
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check if you have glaucoma. Okay, okay. So we're a
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far cry from Zelda. Yeah. How does it work? So
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you get a keypad. It has a few buttons on it,
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and you've also got a computer screen. You're told to
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hit a button on your keypad 100 times. When you
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hit it 100 times, you get one point. And Justin
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gives people about 10 minutes to do this.
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So at the end of the 10 minutes, you're going
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to get paid based on how many points you got.
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So you get 50 cents a point. So if you get,
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you know, 20 points, you're getting 10 bucks, right?
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You press it 100 times, you get 50 cents. Got it.
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Okay.
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So people, they want those 50 cents. So here's where
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the aggression part comes in. Justin tells you that you're
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competing against somebody else in another room. This is actually
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not true. It's just like the computer being random. But
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you're told that this person you're competing against can actually
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steal your points and thus your money and keep it
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for themselves. And you get a flash on the screen
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when that happens. You can take points away from that person,
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but you don't get to keep their points for yourself.
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So they can steal money from you. You can take
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away their money from them, but you don't get to
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keep their money. So it's like unfair. It's like a
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rigged game. Oh, it's just vindictive. Yes, exactly. Exactly.
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So the only purpose of stealing points is to get
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revenge on the other guy. In fact, you're wasting time
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hitting a button because you're not getting anything. You're not
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getting any financial or any points. You're not getting anything,
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any actual reward from it. The reward you're getting is
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an intrinsic reward of you got back at them, right?
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Why would somebody take points from the other player if
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they don't get the points added to their total? Because
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they're pissed off. It sounds a little bit silly, but
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scientists have studied this a number of times and found
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this is a pretty good indicator of aggression. They've even
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found that in people who are violent in real life,
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when they take this test, they tend to score higher
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in terms of all the revenge point hitting. Justin says
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he can even see this when he watches people play
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this game.
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They're sitting back.
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They're hitting their buttons. They're cool, right? Hitting their buttons,
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hitting their buttons.
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And then when they get stolen from them, when you
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see them get provoked, They, like, lean forward and they
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start playing harder.
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All right.
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So now enter testosterone.
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The testosterone, yes. So Justin has done these studies where
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he gives people a dose of testosterone and sees what
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doesn't make them play this game more aggressively.
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Okay.
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Or placebo. So he'll have some people get either a
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testosterone or a placebo and see what happens. Wendy, what
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is your prediction?
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You know, I guess based on everything we've heard about testosterone,
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one might expect that if you get a bump of testosterone,
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it would make you press the revenge button more often, right?
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You would think that. In reality, that's not true for everyone.
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So what Justin has found in multiple studies is that
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it does seem to make some people more aggressive if
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they've got certain personality traits. So he'll give these like
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personality tests and finds that for people who tend to
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be more impulsive and more dominant, they're more likely to
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get more aggressive with this testosterone bump. Here's how he
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put it.
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So if you are someone who likes to have power
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and influence over others, someone who's hyper competitive or someone who's, yeah,
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I won't even use any examples of people that I
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would think are high in dominance, but I think you
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get the point, right?
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Yeah.
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Certain world leaders, perhaps? Right, right. I think probably all
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of them. Right, okay.
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You put them in this little lab, give them some
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extra testosterone, and it will do something to make them
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press that revenge.
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Button more often. But then if people had other.
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Personality traits, I guess lower on dominance, lower on aggression
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more generally.
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Didn't make a difference. It did not make a difference.
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This is for... Just cis men? I couldn't find any
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study on women that did exactly this, like tried to
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take into account personality traits. But there are studies looking
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at aggression and testosterone in women. It tends to be
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more true for men that testosterone can increase aggression. For
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certain kinds of men? For certain kinds of men.
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This is interesting because I think in the data, researchers
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have also looked at this in trans men who take
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testosterone as gender-affirming care.
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And in some.
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Of those men, you see an increase in aggression. And others,
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they didn't feel that at all.
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Yeah.
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So again, we see variation in the human spirit, which
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I guess isn't too surprising. Exactly. I mean, there was
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this other study that had guys take tea and had
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them take journal, like write journal entries about how they
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were feeling and had their partners or significant others also
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assess if they change, if their mood changed and found
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that like, It didn't happen for everybody. But a couple
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of guys had bad reactions. Like one guy had to
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even like leave the study because they were worried about him.
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And this is a study in cis guys.
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Yeah, yeah. So this idea of roid rage, it's not
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a complete myth.
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It does happen to some people. And that is probably
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what created.
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this story that for everyone, you take.
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Testosterone, you'll get mad.
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But actually, it doesn't affect everyone in that way. And
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the science tells us that. When someone asks me, well,
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when you give testosterone, it's going to make everyone, it's
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going to make them aggressive. And I'm like, well, wait
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a minute, not everybody.
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Not everybody.
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Up next, let's look at testosterone and sex drive. Yes,
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will it make you a total horndog?
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Coming up.
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Hey, it's Wendy from Science Versus, and I want to
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tell you about a podcast that I love, Science Friday.
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00:18:03.630 --> 00:18:06.170
They cover all sorts of amazing things in the weird
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00:18:06.210 --> 00:18:10.250
and wonderful world of science, from how concussions affect our
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00:18:10.289 --> 00:18:13.349
brain to the inner secrets of a snake with a
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00:18:13.450 --> 00:18:15.990
spider on its tail. It's a lot of news that
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00:18:16.049 --> 00:18:18.490
you can use and some that you can't, but you're
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00:18:18.509 --> 00:18:19.359
going to love anyway.
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00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:20.890
It's hosted by Ira Flato and Phyllis.
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00:18:21.730 --> 00:18:24.799
Flora Lichtman, who is an old friend of the show
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00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:27.740
and loves a pun as much as we do. Science
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00:18:27.779 --> 00:18:30.960
Friday is on every day wherever you get your podcasts.
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00:18:39.299 --> 00:18:41.940
Welcome back. Today we're talking about testosterone.
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Senior producer Rose Rimler has promised to tell us whether
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taking a bit of tea can turn us into.
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Whore dogs, I would have said horn dogs. No, that's
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what I said. I said horn dog. I didn't say whore.
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Dog.
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All right.
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Either way, how does testosterone affect sex drive?
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Okay, Wendy, you need to hold your horn dogs just
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for a minute.
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Okay, okay, right.
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Before we dive into that, I just do want to
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say that one reason people are really concerned here is
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because of this idea that testosterone levels are going down
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in dudes.
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There's never been a worse time in modern history to
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be a young man hormonally.
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Testosterone levels are plummeting.
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A 25-year-old guy has the same testosterone levels as his
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grandpa did at age 40.
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Which is a problem. It's a massive problem in men. Yes, yes,
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the so-called testosterone crisis and whatnot. Yeah, so for example,
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one study looked at testosterone levels of men between the
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ages of 15 and 39 in 1989. in 1999 compared
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with men of that same age in 2015 and found
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that the modern dudes had about 25% less testosterone on average.
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25% less testosterone, same age group.
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Uh-huh. Yeah, and other studies have shown, you know, different numbers,
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but similarly, like this decline.
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Interesting.
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So what's causing it? There's something in the water? I mean,
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a lot of people point to, you know, endocrine disrupting chemicals.
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The microplastics. Yeah, maybe stress, a more stressed out society,
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a more sedentary society. These have all been floated around.
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But the point, I think, for our conversation today is
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that with this sort of decline in testosterone levels broadly,
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it could be pushing more men into the too low category.
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And by too low, you mean when scientists study large
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groups of people and compare the health of a group
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of men, they find that there is a cutoff point
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where your testosterone is low and it starts to be
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associated with various health effects.
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Is that right?
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Right.
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I mean, the normal healthy range of testosterone is pretty broad, actually,
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but down below a certain... threshold, you can get symptoms
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like low energy, feeling down, getting crappy sleep, gaining weight,
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brain fog, and low libido. So the question is, if
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that's you, should you take tea?
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Right.
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Will it help? So the best study we have on
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this comes from this group of studies called the Tea Trials,
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led partly by our old friend Shalinder Pasin. We heard
400
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from him earlier in the show. He and his colleagues
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in the 2000s, they enrolled this big group of older
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guys with clinically low testosterone. And they had them take
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either a testosterone gel or a placebo gel. They would
404
00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:41.180
rub it on their backs every day for a year.
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00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:46.039
And they were tracking stuff like their sex life. How
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do you find out about that? You can't sit in
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the bedroom and take notes.
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00:21:49.819 --> 00:21:52.480
So we had these diaries. So people jotted down for
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00:21:52.500 --> 00:21:55.519
a whole week. All types of sexual activity, you know,
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00:21:55.539 --> 00:22:01.339
whether they're masturbated or partnered activity or just whether they
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00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:04.279
watched an X-rated video or Playboy magazine, etc.
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So cute that he says X-rated and not porn. Really
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dates the study. I guess they got a video cassette.
414
00:22:13.910 --> 00:22:18.069
Yeah, exactly. Went to the video store with a sticky floor.
415
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So what did he find?
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All types of activities were recorded. And those diaries showed
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clearly that all types of sexual activities improved.
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So the guys in the testosterone arm at the end
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of the trial, about 20% of them reported that their
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libido was much better. And that's compared with less than
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10% in the placebo group.
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00:22:40.369 --> 00:22:45.609
Uh-huh. Testosterone did improve when they had low testosterone, clinically low.
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00:22:46.109 --> 00:22:48.930
And that You know, really makes sense because we know
424
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that men who have severely low testosterone, like guys with
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00:22:52.410 --> 00:22:56.170
Klinefelter syndrome, that's where you're born XXY instead of XY,
426
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they make very little testosterone. One of the symptoms of
427
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that syndrome is a very low or non-existent sex drive.
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We also know that trans men often report a boost
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in their sex drive when they start taking tea, at
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least at first. It tends to settle down over time.
431
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So it totally makes sense. Yeah, so I think the take-home.
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Is really if you have clinically low levels of testosterone,
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taking more. to get you into that healthy range can
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boost your sex drive. But if you are already in
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the healthy range, and like you mentioned, guys in the
436
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healthy range of testosterone, some have higher, some have lower,
437
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all in the healthy range. And we know from study
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after study after study that when you ask those guys
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in the healthy range, how often do you think about sex?
440
00:23:49.150 --> 00:23:50.450
How often are you having sex? How often are you
441
00:23:50.470 --> 00:23:52.890
watching X-rated videos?
442
00:23:54.109 --> 00:23:56.730
And then you test their testosterone, having a little bit
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more or a little bit less actually isn't correlated with
444
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a higher sex drive.
445
00:24:01.259 --> 00:24:03.859
That's right. Yeah, that's another really good clue that if
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you're in the normal testosterone range, it doesn't really matter.
447
00:24:06.819 --> 00:24:09.579
And this brings us to our next question, which is,
448
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does testosterone help women with their sex drive? So some
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00:24:13.930 --> 00:24:16.549
of our best data on women and testosterone and sex
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00:24:16.589 --> 00:24:20.230
drive come from East Germany, back before the collapse of
451
00:24:20.250 --> 00:24:23.640
the Soviet Union. So back then the state was actually
452
00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:27.460
giving their athletes steroids in order to win more Olympic medals.
453
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And they were giving their female athletes especially high doses
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of something called terabinol and documenting the effects. And those
455
00:24:36.789 --> 00:24:41.470
documents became available, you know, later on. Right. And they
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00:24:41.549 --> 00:24:47.440
show that women getting these big doses of testosterone– essentially,
457
00:24:47.829 --> 00:24:52.609
got super horny. In fact, some women reported that this
458
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was unbearable and asked to quit sports rather than keep
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taking it.
460
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Wow. I know.
461
00:25:00.809 --> 00:25:04.349
And a more modern survey of female users of anabolic
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00:25:04.369 --> 00:25:07.990
steroids that I found surveyed them and asked them about
463
00:25:08.029 --> 00:25:10.230
their sex drive. And a lot of them said the
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00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:12.319
same thing, that it really made their sex drive go up,
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but they didn't necessarily like it all that much.
466
00:25:15.970 --> 00:25:17.869
Now, both, I mean, I don't think we want to
467
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call what happened in East Germany a study, but in
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both cases, there's no placebo control.
469
00:25:23.109 --> 00:25:28.039
No. I mean, these are high doses, though. Like, we're
470
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talking about doses where you can grow more body hair,
471
00:25:31.579 --> 00:25:34.000
your voice can deepen, you can get an enlargement of
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the clitoris. The doses that I think most of the
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00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:41.500
influencers are talking about when they're like, you're a woman
474
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with low sex drive, you should get on testosterone, they're
475
00:25:43.900 --> 00:25:47.619
much lower. And we do have a placebo-controlled trial to
476
00:25:47.660 --> 00:25:50.920
talk about when it comes to that. Okay. There's a
477
00:25:50.940 --> 00:25:54.299
drug company that tested this. They had women who said
478
00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:58.240
that they had a distressingly low libido, randomized them to
479
00:25:58.259 --> 00:26:01.349
wear either a testosterone patch or a placebo patch for
480
00:26:01.369 --> 00:26:05.369
a year. These were all post-menopausal women. The women who
481
00:26:05.450 --> 00:26:10.430
wore the testosterone patch reported about one more satisfying sexual
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00:26:10.470 --> 00:26:15.130
experience per month. Okay, one more sexually satisfying experience per month.
483
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I guess not kicking that out of bed. I'm not sure.
484
00:26:19.170 --> 00:26:19.589
No miracles.
485
00:26:19.609 --> 00:26:22.390
No miracles. But can help. But can help. All right.
486
00:26:22.809 --> 00:26:25.890
And just quickly, one final thing I want to look at,
487
00:26:25.970 --> 00:26:28.880
one final claim that I see everywhere is this idea
488
00:26:28.950 --> 00:26:31.680
that taking testosterone will, like, put a lot more pep
489
00:26:31.819 --> 00:26:34.640
back in your step, give you a lot more energy. Yes.
490
00:26:35.079 --> 00:26:37.400
So this is another thing that Challender and his team
491
00:26:37.420 --> 00:26:40.160
looked at in the T-Trials, people's energy.
492
00:26:40.180 --> 00:26:41.339
Mm-hmm.
493
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:45.039
And other studies have looked at this as well. And
494
00:26:45.059 --> 00:26:49.240
the result is always kind of like sad trombone, you know?
495
00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:50.440
Aw.
496
00:26:52.059 --> 00:26:52.200
Aw.
497
00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:56.289
In what way? Put some numbers behind our sad trombone.
498
00:26:56.690 --> 00:27:00.589
For example, in the T trials, the team measured what
499
00:27:00.609 --> 00:27:04.029
they called vitality by giving guys a questionnaire that asked
500
00:27:04.089 --> 00:27:07.640
them stuff like how tired did they feel? How functional
501
00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:11.059
were they day to day? A max score on this
502
00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:15.200
questionnaire would be 108 points. And the team decided before
503
00:27:15.220 --> 00:27:17.690
the study that a meaningful effect would be an improvement
504
00:27:17.730 --> 00:27:21.769
of four points. Okay. It didn't clear that hurdle. They
505
00:27:21.809 --> 00:27:24.130
saw a little bit of improvement, but the effect was
506
00:27:24.269 --> 00:27:27.849
really small. And Schallender said that surprises him because when
507
00:27:27.869 --> 00:27:33.400
he treats patients with low T and gives them testosterone supplementation,
508
00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:35.619
he says they often tell him that they feel more
509
00:27:35.660 --> 00:27:37.599
energetic after they start therapy.
510
00:27:38.710 --> 00:27:40.890
And, you know, I've been the author on many of
511
00:27:40.930 --> 00:27:45.509
these studies, and I'm always surprised by such a small effect.
512
00:27:45.730 --> 00:27:46.910
Yeah, it's very underwhelming.
513
00:27:47.029 --> 00:27:48.319
Very underwhelming, isn't it?
514
00:27:50.190 --> 00:27:54.670
Well, the placebo is a wonderful thing, right? Yeah, for
515
00:27:54.710 --> 00:27:57.369
all kinds of people, for all kinds of things. You hear, like,
516
00:27:57.430 --> 00:27:59.960
it's basically going to cure everything that's wrong with you. And,
517
00:27:59.970 --> 00:28:02.299
you know, we hear about it so much for menopause symptoms.
518
00:28:02.420 --> 00:28:04.660
This is something that came up a lot, like your
519
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:07.180
brain fog and, you know, your focus and all that.
520
00:28:08.089 --> 00:28:09.990
We don't actually have any research to back that up,
521
00:28:10.009 --> 00:28:12.869
but we do have studies that don't have control groups,
522
00:28:13.130 --> 00:28:15.269
and you really need one because of the placebo effect
523
00:28:15.509 --> 00:28:19.829
from testosterone. Or they're funded by some clinic that's shilling testosterone.
524
00:28:20.289 --> 00:28:24.369
This is what you're finding in the postmenopausal research space
525
00:28:24.390 --> 00:28:24.670
as well.
526
00:28:24.690 --> 00:28:27.490
That's right. So then what are the risks? What are
527
00:28:27.509 --> 00:28:29.650
the risks? Is it time to get to the risks?
528
00:28:29.690 --> 00:28:34.059
You've mentioned your clitoris might enlarge.
529
00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:38.730
What else could happen? So... In people who have testicles,
530
00:28:38.869 --> 00:28:41.369
if you take testosterone, you know, give yourself a big
531
00:28:41.390 --> 00:28:44.420
dose of testosterone, you know, chronically, you take it all
532
00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:47.220
the time, your brain is going to sense that you
533
00:28:47.299 --> 00:28:52.059
have plenty of testosterone and it'll stop making your own testosterone.
534
00:28:52.099 --> 00:28:54.630
It'll stop the homegrown stuff. And that brings us to
535
00:28:54.809 --> 00:28:57.910
our biggest, most obvious risk, and that's infertility.
536
00:28:57.930 --> 00:28:58.069
Right.
537
00:28:59.109 --> 00:29:01.250
The reason that leads to infertility is that in order
538
00:29:01.289 --> 00:29:05.769
to make viable sperm, you need testosterone to be coming
539
00:29:05.849 --> 00:29:08.190
from the testes. And that's not going to happen if
540
00:29:08.210 --> 00:29:10.049
you've turned off the tap that comes from your brain.
541
00:29:10.069 --> 00:29:18.339
And people think testosterone equals masculinity, equals high sperm count.
542
00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:21.339
Actually, exact opposite. The exact opposite.
543
00:29:21.539 --> 00:29:26.299
Taking testosterone can lower your Your sperm count to the
544
00:29:26.339 --> 00:29:28.599
point where you are infertile, right?
545
00:29:28.859 --> 00:29:29.079
Yes.
546
00:29:29.140 --> 00:29:31.569
And this whole thing about sperm and about shutting off
547
00:29:31.609 --> 00:29:35.470
your own testosterone, it's not trivial and it's not necessarily
548
00:29:36.589 --> 00:29:39.750
super short term. I talked about this with Richard Osborne.
549
00:29:40.460 --> 00:29:43.839
He is an endocrinologist and professor at the University of Michigan.
550
00:29:44.460 --> 00:29:45.880
And this actually came up when we were talking about
551
00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:48.660
this idea of supplementing soldiers with testosterone.
552
00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:52.279
But, you know, if you're taking testosterone, you probably shouldn't
553
00:29:52.339 --> 00:29:54.049
be on the front lines fighting, right?
554
00:29:54.420 --> 00:29:54.829
Why is that?
555
00:29:55.349 --> 00:29:56.589
Well, what if you get captured?
556
00:29:57.490 --> 00:29:57.609
Right.
557
00:29:57.690 --> 00:30:02.099
Because remember, taking testosterone, you're going to then become dependent
558
00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:05.539
on it. You're going to suppress your own production and
559
00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:07.559
then you're going to have to take that for the
560
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:11.359
rest of your life. So if you get captured and
561
00:30:11.420 --> 00:30:14.140
you don't have access to your testosterone, then you're going
562
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:17.099
to be even lower than you were before you got treated.
563
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:20.220
That's permanent? Well, I mean, it depends how long you
564
00:30:20.339 --> 00:30:20.630
use it.
565
00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:22.420
Yeah.
566
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:27.130
Wait, it doesn't the moment you stop taking your testosterone supplements,
567
00:30:27.609 --> 00:30:31.529
your body forgets that it's got to go up again?
568
00:30:31.930 --> 00:30:33.930
Well, it depends on how long you've been on the
569
00:30:33.970 --> 00:30:36.750
testosterone supplements. It depends on how much you've been taking.
570
00:30:38.289 --> 00:30:41.250
But it can take a while to come back online
571
00:30:41.950 --> 00:30:45.720
and it can be permanently suppressed, even when it does
572
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:48.299
come back online, including your sperm counts.
573
00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:52.740
That's a huge, that's a huge risk.
574
00:30:52.819 --> 00:30:56.180
It's a huge risk. And especially when I think about, like,
575
00:30:56.259 --> 00:30:58.299
teenagers taking this stuff. Like, oh, my God.
576
00:30:58.799 --> 00:30:59.259
But, yeah.
577
00:30:59.299 --> 00:31:02.519
I mean, also, you can actually go through withdrawal after
578
00:31:02.619 --> 00:31:06.690
stopping testosterone replacement therapy or stopping, you know, steroids. You
579
00:31:06.710 --> 00:31:11.509
can get symptoms like headache, fatigue, restlessness, insomnia, feeling sad,
580
00:31:11.569 --> 00:31:14.430
low sex drive. All this stuff that you're supposedly trying
581
00:31:14.509 --> 00:31:18.000
to avoid by taking tea can actually end up getting
582
00:31:18.019 --> 00:31:19.940
worse after you stop the testosterone therapy.
583
00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:21.339
Mm-hmm.
584
00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:21.940
And then.
585
00:31:22.700 --> 00:31:27.630
What about other effects to your heart, to the rest
586
00:31:27.650 --> 00:31:30.269
of your body while you're taking the testosterone?
587
00:31:30.509 --> 00:31:30.829
Yeah.
588
00:31:30.849 --> 00:31:34.349
So people talk about acne that comes up, breast tenderness.
589
00:31:35.609 --> 00:31:38.029
And also if you are someone who is capable of
590
00:31:38.069 --> 00:31:40.910
becoming pregnant, you get pregnant while you're on testosterone, it
591
00:31:40.930 --> 00:31:43.289
could harm the fetus. It's another big thing to think about.
592
00:31:45.619 --> 00:31:47.900
When it comes to stuff like your heart, Your prostate,
593
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:49.680
if you have one, there has been a lot of
594
00:31:50.190 --> 00:31:54.569
concern that testosterone taking it could be bad, like give
595
00:31:54.589 --> 00:31:57.369
you heart attacks or prostate cancer. But we do have
596
00:31:57.569 --> 00:31:59.759
a study a drug company did a few years ago
597
00:31:59.779 --> 00:32:03.240
that found no difference in heart attacks or prostate cancer
598
00:32:03.420 --> 00:32:06.859
for guys taking moderate doses of testosterone compared with a
599
00:32:06.859 --> 00:32:09.779
placebo over four years, which is somewhat reassuring.
600
00:32:09.799 --> 00:32:10.609
Okay.
601
00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:10.880
Yeah.
602
00:32:11.470 --> 00:32:14.529
But it might be a different story with much higher doses.
603
00:32:14.910 --> 00:32:18.309
So researchers have seen damage to people's hearts and even
604
00:32:18.390 --> 00:32:21.410
brains after they've been juicing for a while. So there
605
00:32:21.430 --> 00:32:24.710
are certainly downsides. Okay. So I think that can be
606
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:28.720
really downplayed by people who promote this stuff. For sure.
607
00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:31.740
And it doesn't help that a lot of the information
608
00:32:31.779 --> 00:32:35.119
we get about taking testosterone is coming from people who
609
00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:38.880
are selling it. A lot of experts have pointed out
610
00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:42.359
that this craze for testosterone really took off around the
611
00:32:42.549 --> 00:32:46.109
year 2000, which was about the time that drug companies
612
00:32:46.430 --> 00:32:49.650
figured out how to put it in a gel. And
613
00:32:49.690 --> 00:32:51.029
so you didn't have to just inject it. So that
614
00:32:51.049 --> 00:32:53.700
this new product that would be a lot more, you know,
615
00:32:55.250 --> 00:32:58.890
Appealing to a lot more people. Right. Yeah, and so
616
00:32:59.170 --> 00:33:01.849
there's been a ton of advertising since then to people
617
00:33:02.250 --> 00:33:03.089
and to doctors.
618
00:33:03.410 --> 00:33:06.910
Yes, and now the advertising is coming through your favorite
619
00:33:06.950 --> 00:33:09.369
influencer and their favorite affiliate code.
620
00:33:10.210 --> 00:33:15.009
Yeah. Right. So there's this push by pharma companies, and
621
00:33:15.029 --> 00:33:18.799
I think it's dovetailing with this other social change we're seeing.
622
00:33:19.579 --> 00:33:22.519
We're going to go back to the guys now. A
623
00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:25.269
lot of researchers argue that we've actually seen a shift
624
00:33:25.369 --> 00:33:28.710
in what the ideal male body is supposed to look like. Oh,
625
00:33:28.730 --> 00:33:31.349
for sure. Over the last few decades. So they've done
626
00:33:31.390 --> 00:33:35.170
stuff like they've taken action figures of today and compared
627
00:33:35.210 --> 00:33:38.039
them with action figures of the past. And they found
628
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:41.200
that toy makers are actually making them, like, buffer. Yeah.
629
00:33:42.339 --> 00:33:45.700
I mean, even if you look at Heyman, Heyman is—
630
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:50.019
probably looks like a twink these days.
631
00:33:50.420 --> 00:33:50.920
Right?
632
00:33:50.940 --> 00:33:56.059
There's not even a vein in sight, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
633
00:33:56.160 --> 00:34:00.119
it's crazy. That's crazy. It's crazy. They've also compared centerfolds
634
00:34:00.220 --> 00:34:03.519
in Playgirl magazines over the years and found that the
635
00:34:03.619 --> 00:34:07.140
male models featured there, they're getting more muscular. For sure,
636
00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:07.789
for sure.
637
00:34:07.849 --> 00:34:14.030
These online, you scroll, and these huge guys don't look
638
00:34:14.090 --> 00:34:18.219
that huge anymore. It looks like that's what a normal
639
00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:21.059
guy is supposed to be.
640
00:34:21.659 --> 00:34:25.900
Whereas in the past, you'd think, wow, that's a bodybuilder. Yeah,
641
00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:28.539
and this is something that Schallender really cares about and
642
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.380
brought up and talked to me about. Because he thinks
643
00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:34.739
what's going on here is we're getting this obsession with
644
00:34:34.760 --> 00:34:40.219
this very narrow and unrealistic idea of what masculinity is.
645
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:43.780
What it means to be a man, a successful man,
646
00:34:43.860 --> 00:34:44.300
a good man.
647
00:34:44.980 --> 00:34:48.900
I've seen some young men on social media talking about
648
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:51.500
trying to get high T. They're perfectly healthy, but like,
649
00:34:51.539 --> 00:34:53.280
I want to be high T. Maybe they take T
650
00:34:53.320 --> 00:34:55.170
or maybe they're just trying to boost their T in
651
00:34:55.210 --> 00:34:58.809
other ways, but they really are fixated on their testosterone.
652
00:34:59.230 --> 00:35:01.010
And sometimes I think like, I feel like you need
653
00:35:01.050 --> 00:35:05.489
an older, wise, knowledgeable man to give you some advice.
654
00:35:06.030 --> 00:35:08.320
So I'm thinking you would be a great person. So
655
00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:11.429
if you could give some advice to to these guys,
656
00:35:11.469 --> 00:35:12.769
these young guys, what would you say to them?
657
00:35:12.969 --> 00:35:14.989
I would put my hands on them, hug them and
658
00:35:15.030 --> 00:35:19.969
tell them, you have such a perfect, beautiful body. It
659
00:35:20.050 --> 00:35:25.349
is so perfect. It's beautiful in its perfection. You don't
660
00:35:25.489 --> 00:35:29.730
need testosterone to be happy or healthy or have a
661
00:35:29.769 --> 00:35:36.050
sense of well-being, right? And so I think these young
662
00:35:36.070 --> 00:35:40.179
men are struggling and And they just need a hug
663
00:35:40.340 --> 00:35:45.460
and some reassurance that they are beautiful, their bodies are perfect,
664
00:35:46.219 --> 00:35:49.349
and testosterone isn't going to make them happier, more successful.
665
00:35:51.309 --> 00:35:55.670
That's science versus. How many citations are in this week's episode,
666
00:35:55.889 --> 00:35:56.530
Rose Rimla?
667
00:35:56.750 --> 00:36:00.280
This week we have 83 citations. And if people want
668
00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:01.960
to see them, where should they go? They can click
669
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:04.739
on the link to our transcript, and they'll find that
670
00:36:04.780 --> 00:36:05.840
link in our show notes.
671
00:36:07.019 --> 00:36:09.820
And if you have someone in your life that needs
672
00:36:09.860 --> 00:36:12.650
a hug, that needs to know how beautiful their body.
673
00:36:12.469 --> 00:36:15.929
Is, share them this episode. They don't need testosterone. They
674
00:36:15.949 --> 00:36:18.940
need science. Thanks, Rose. Thanks, Wendy.
675
00:36:19.820 --> 00:36:22.610
Oh, and finally, if you are still thinking about the
676
00:36:22.650 --> 00:36:26.670
fact that children's toys have been getting more and more muscly,
677
00:36:27.210 --> 00:36:29.750
not to mention, of course, these images that we're.
678
00:36:29.630 --> 00:36:32.300
Seeing online, just super, super muscly men.
679
00:36:32.900 --> 00:36:36.239
Well, I had this amazing chat this week with the
680
00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:40.320
science educators behind ASAP Science, Mitch Moffitt and Greg Brown,
681
00:36:40.780 --> 00:36:43.630
and we were talking about this growing mental health condition
682
00:36:43.650 --> 00:36:48.690
on called bigorexia. And it really made me question my
683
00:36:48.849 --> 00:36:50.909
own habits at the gym. I think it's a really
684
00:36:50.969 --> 00:36:52.050
fascinating conversation.
685
00:36:52.130 --> 00:36:52.789
It's out now.
686
00:36:53.150 --> 00:36:53.989
It's on YouTube.
687
00:36:54.050 --> 00:36:55.719
We're going to put a link in the show notes.
688
00:36:56.099 --> 00:36:58.539
So please go check it out. And Mitch and Greg
689
00:36:58.579 --> 00:37:01.119
have their own podcast. It's called Side Note. That is
690
00:37:01.159 --> 00:37:04.159
where I first heard about this condition, bigorexia. So you
691
00:37:04.179 --> 00:37:07.400
should totally go check it out. This episode was produced
692
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:10.380
by Rose Rimler with help from Meryl Horne, Akedi Foster-Keys
693
00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:11.090
and Michelle Dang.
694
00:37:11.219 --> 00:37:12.510
We're edited by Blythe Terrell.
695
00:37:12.949 --> 00:37:17.070
Wendy Zuckerman, me, is the executive producer. Fact-checking by Marlo Starling.
696
00:37:17.389 --> 00:37:20.869
Video editing and sound by Bobby Lord. Music written by
697
00:37:20.909 --> 00:37:24.210
Bumi Hidaka, Peter Leonard, Emma Munger and Bobby Lord. Thanks
698
00:37:24.250 --> 00:37:26.849
to the researchers we spoke to for this episode, including
699
00:37:26.929 --> 00:37:32.019
Dr Kathleen Casto, Dr Carol Hooven, Professor Ruth Wood, Dr
700
00:37:32.059 --> 00:37:36.639
Stephanie Page, Professor Sari Van Anders, Dr Adam Stanaland and
701
00:37:36.920 --> 00:37:41.119
Professor Anthony Hackney. Thanks to Humdinger Studios in Melbourne and
702
00:37:41.179 --> 00:37:44.010
Wolf Island Studios in New York City. Science Versus is
703
00:37:44.050 --> 00:37:46.889
a Spotify Studios original. Listen to us for free on
704
00:37:46.929 --> 00:37:50.309
Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We're on YouTube,
705
00:37:50.690 --> 00:37:53.090
we're on TikTok, we're on Instagram as well. Come and
706
00:37:53.170 --> 00:37:53.809
say hello.
707
00:37:53.829 --> 00:37:55.969
I'm Wendy Zuckerman. Back to you next time.