WEBVTT
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Hello.
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Shall we go up?
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Yes.
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All right, let's do it.
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Here we go.
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I'm at the Alfred Hospital in Melbourne, Australia, with Dr
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Fernando Godillo-Altamirano, and we're headed to a research lab attached
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to the hospital. This is my first lab tour post-COVID.
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Oh, really?
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I wonder if the beakers still look the same.
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They look exactly the same. They haven't changed.
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At first, this looks like any other lab. You know,
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the drill, test tubes, white walls, lab coats. But then
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Fernando walks me to a room filled with big freezers.
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And in here, there's something that you don't see in
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every lab. What is inside these freezers?
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Superbugs.
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Superbugs.
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Bacteria that can't be killed by some of our strongest antibiotics.
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And I'm in a room filled with them. Whoa!
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And I'm not wearing a mask! Well, they are all frozen.
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They are technically harmless in their current state.
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Technically harmless? Fernando carefully opens the freezer door and white
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fog snakes out. It looks like we're in Penguin's Lair,
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you know, from Batman. When the fog clears, I can
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see shelves filled with thousands of vials.
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Okay.
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So this is like superbug central.
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I'm Wendy Zuckerman and you're listening to Science Versus from Gimlet.
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And today we're pitting facts against infections as we look
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at superbugs.
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Okay.
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So you know how Fernando just said that we were
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safe because the superbugs were contained and frozen?
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Well.
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I just unfroze from our freezers that you just saw
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four of them.
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What?
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It's like the scariest cooking show you've ever seen. I'm
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looking at some of the deadliest bacteria in the world.
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And I know I'm making jokes because that's kind of
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what I do. But looking down at these agar plates,
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it is freaky. I mean, just imagine getting an infection
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with one of these, a UTI or a nasty cough
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like pneumonia. Going to the doctor and having no little
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pill to make you feel better. One woman survived a
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suicide bombing in Brussels only to almost die because her
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wounds got infected with a superbug. In fact, the bacteria
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that almost killed her was the same species that I'm
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staring at right now.
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The bugs?
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Yes.
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Have been recognised as the most dangerous ones in terms
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of antibiotic resistance. And when a patient gets infected by
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one of these bad guys, that patient is in serious trouble.
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For years, we've been hearing about this problem, that our
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drugs aren't working as well as they used to. But recently,
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it feels like things have gotten out of hand. Because
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if you've been watching the news, it's not only that these.
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Bugs are super scary.
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but they're also everywhere. It's as if they're ready to
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infect us when we take the train. On the underground,
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they found traces of nine so-called superbugs, which are the...
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Or eat a chicken burger.
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Listen up.
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A recent study shows that nearly 80% of the meat
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in U.S. supermarkets contains antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
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Or even get crapped on by a seagull.
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Researchers finding one in five seagulls carry superbugs resistant to antibiotics.
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One headline screamed that if we don't do something soon,
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we're headed towards an impending superbug apocalypse. The end to
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modern medicine as we know it.
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So today on the show, is this for real? Are
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superbugs really everywhere?
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And what are scientists doing about all this? Because it
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turns out that here at this lab that I'm visiting,
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they're recruiting an unexpected soldier in this fight with the
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help of perhaps my turds.
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You're doing a good deed, a good deed for the
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patients here, 100%.
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When it comes to superbugs, a lot of people are
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saying that we live in.
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Superbug central.
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But then there's science. Science Vest as Superbugs is coming up.
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See app or web for info.
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Welcome back. Today, we're on the hunt for superbugs, bacteria
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that have learned to fight off our antibiotics.
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And we're asking, how bad is this?
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And to get to the bottom of that, we first
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want to know where these bugs are hiding. Because as
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you just heard in the news, it seems like they're everywhere.
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Is that true?
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Is that true?
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To find out, we called up Ed Fahl, a professor
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at the University of Bath in the UK, whose team
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recently went searching for superbugs in a city called Pavia.
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Here's Ed.
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It's beautiful.
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It's very typically Italian.
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Pavia is in northern Italy.
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Picture it. Cobblestone streets. Great food. In fact, he told
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me that this is the region where Gorgonzola is made.
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I don't know.
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What more can I say about Pavia? I recommend it.
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And so in this land of cheese, Ed got three
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very fastidious research assistants to go searching for superbugs, taking
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swabs all over the city.
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And I mean all over.
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Swings and benches, samples from ATM machines, buses. And they
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even sampled the holy water in the cathedral.
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Okay, the holy water?
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Like they snuck into the cathedral with a little swabber?
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Yeah, yeah, they took a little sample of that.
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And they went all over the hospitals too, sampling patients
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and surfaces. And then they went out of the city
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and onto the surrounding farms to the pigs, chickens and cows.
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And how did you take the samples from the cows?
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So rectal swabs... Mostly. Up the butt? Up the butt, yeah.
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I have a little game.
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I try and make every academic say up the butt
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at least once during our interview.
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Yeah, okay.
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That's fine. I'm happy with that.
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Then they all got busy at the lab, genetically sequencing
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the samples, more than 3,000 of them. And basically, Ed
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and his team wanted to know, where are the superbugs?
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And for the real nerds out there, Ed was looking
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for superbugs within the genus Klebsiella. Okay, so first, some
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good news. The holy water?
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Came up negative, I'm pleased to say.
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So the good people of Pavia can relax that that's fine.
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But then, the bad news. They found that around the
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town and on the farms, there were a lot of
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bacteria that had resistance to some antibiotics. Tricks up their
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sleeves to fend off drugs like penicillin or streptomycin.
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These were found in the soil, on poultry, dogs, cats.
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So you see those basically everywhere.
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They're everywhere. I mean, they're out of the box now.
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So, I mean, just think of it as a type
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of pollution, really.
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And it turns out that this isn't just happening in
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beautiful Pavia. Antibiotic-resistant bacteria really have been found all over
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the place. Yes, in subways, sausages and seagulls. but also
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hitching a ride on tiny pieces of plastic in the ocean.
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They've been found in the Arctic, and something that really
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blew my mind, they've even been found in an isolated
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cave in New Mexico that's a thousand feet underground. So
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how the hell did this happen? I talked about this
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with Dr Fernando Gordillo Altamirano. He's the guy that showed
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us around the superbug freezer. And Fernando told me that
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this all started a very, very, very long time ago.
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Antibiotic resistance is not man-made, right? It is a phenomenon
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that occurs naturally.
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Bacteria started learning tricks to outsmart antibiotics way before we
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started popping them for our infections. And that's because bacteria
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have always had enemies. Things in nature, like fungi, that
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wanted to kill them. And so the fungi, they had
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their own antibiotics. Chemicals to destroy bacteria. In fact, we
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got penicillin from fungus.
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Thanks.
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So this all means that from a bacteria's perspective... they
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need to come up with ways to fight back. And
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they've been doing this for thousands of years. I mean, literally,
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we have evidence in the permafrost that bacteria had.
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This superpower 30,000 years ago.
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So....
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This is one reason why we're seeing antibiotic-resistant bacteria all
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over the place. Because they've been doing this for ages.
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Where humans accelerate this process is when we start introducing
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antibiotics into the environment. And we are using on a
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massive scale.
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Around the world, we take billions of antibiotics each year,
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and it's only growing today. We give a ton to
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our livestock too, not just to kill disease, but to
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make our animals grow faster. And each time we use antibiotics,
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we put bacteria in this very clear position, evolve some
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way to get around it, or die. And so bacteria
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have been evolving. And by the way, this isn't just
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happening in bacteria. Ever since we started using antifungals, we've
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also been seeing more resistance with fungal infections. But of course,
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you guys all know that, thanks to that HBO doco,
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The Last of Us. Okay, but back to bacteria. So
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now these bugs have all these tricks to outsmart our drugs. Like,
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for example, some of them make enzymes that chew up
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our antibiotics. And the way that these tricks have spread
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so quickly is partly because once a bacteria learns a
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new trick, they can share it with their friends. And
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one of the ways they do that is through this
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process called conjugation.
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And boy, is it interesting.
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Tina Joshi at the University of Plymouth in the UK.
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It sounds very sexy because like conjugation sounds.
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It is like bacterial sex.
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When I teach about it, I say it's bacterial.
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Sex, right?
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It's bacterial sex.
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It literally is.
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When bacteria learn a new trick to fight off our antibiotics,
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it might start by just a random mutation in their genetics.
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One little letter in their DNA flips, and this gives
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them an advantage. Conjugation is the process where some bacteria
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can then share those genes. And here's how it works.
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So picture it.
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Bacteria is swimming about. And then this appendage called a penis. Sorry,
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a pillus emerges from the bacteria.
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Like a stick, a stick that comes out of it.
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And it's like a little thin strand that's coming out.
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It's like a little thin hair almost. And that's really
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biologically incorrect. So sorry for everyone who's a scientist listening. But,
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you know, it's a bit like a hair moving through.
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The pillus of the superbug finds a friendly bacteria and
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attaches on. And meanwhile, the superbug has copied part of
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its DNA, including the part that helped it fight off
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our antibiotics. So then what happens is that the superbug
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DNA moves through the pillus and into the friendly bacteria.
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So that ultimately, where we had one superbug, now we
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have two. And this bacterial sex, it can happen between
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different species. In fact, there was this case report of
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a guy who had a really scary superbug infection that
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was shrugging off our most powerful antibiotics. Doctors were freaking out. Anyway,
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the infection was caused by a bacteria called Klebsiella. But
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inside this guy, researchers saw that the superbug gene had
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already jumped into an E.
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Coli.
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And that superbug gene, it's since been found all over
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the world in more than a dozen different species. And
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the thing that I never thought about is that all
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this bacterial sex, it isn't happening at a seedy motel
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down the road.
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It's going on inside us.
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All the time, yeah, all the time inside us. That
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gene swapping between bacteria is always happening.
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Because wherever there are bacteria, there is bacterial sex. And
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you know, in just one bout of bacterial bonking, they'll
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often pass on not just one trick to fend off
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our antibiotics, but a whole superbug goodie bag.
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And the spread is just phenomenal. And we can't control it.
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I mean, we can't control evolution. We might think we can,
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and we might think we're the most evolved species in
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the universe, but we cannot control bacterial evolution. All we
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can do is just look and think, oh my God. Sorry,
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I don't want it to be scary.
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But it does sound scary.
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These bacteria are doing all this hanky-panky all over the place,
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sharing resistance to our antibiotics, and they've been found all
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over the world doing this.
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Our next question is, I don't know, why aren't we
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all dead?
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Well, the thing is that even though these bacteria are special,
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they're not super dangerous. in every single way. Like they're
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not necessarily nastier or more contagious than regular bacteria. So
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a lot of the time our immune system can actually
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keep them in check. In fact, what we're learning is
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that you can even be carrying a superbug like in
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your belly and not even know it. One study looked
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at more than a thousand poo samples and found that
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9% of the turds had antibiotic resistant E.
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Coli in them.
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I asked Ed about this. You know, the guy whose
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team was snooping around the holy water in Pavia. I
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think we assume that if a bug has a resistance
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to antibiotics or even multiple resistances, that it is inherently
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dangerous and nasty. But actually, it could just sit in
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your gut happily and like not cause any disease. Like
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those are two separate things.
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They're very much separate things.
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Yes.
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So a superbug. isn't any more likely to cause disease.
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It's just that if it does, it's harder to treat.
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But where superbugs do become a real problem is in hospitals.
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And that's partly because you have people who are already sick,
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whose immune systems might be a little weak, and it's
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easier for any kind of bacteria, super or not, to
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take hold. And in fact, hospitals are a big superbug
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problem for another reason. because it's also where you find
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the scariest of the superbugs.
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Okay, so the bacteria that.
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We're finding on our trains and meat, while they might
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be resistant to some antibiotics, we still have ways of
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killing them. Even MRSA, which you hear about people getting
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in locker rooms. While the infections can be nasty... we
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haven't completely run out of ways to kill that bacteria.
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So while these bugs are bad news, they're not the
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worst news. The bacteria that are resistant to basically all
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the antibiotics we have, let's call them super, super bugs,
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you're most likely to run into those in one place.
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And that's hospitals.
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Super, super bugs.
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They haven't made it out of the hospitals at all,
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as far as we can tell.
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That's right.
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When Ed's team ransacked Pavia for them, these super, super
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bugs were only in the hospitals. Other studies around the
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world mostly find the same thing, that hospitals are ground
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zero for this. And it makes sense that super, super bugs,
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the bacteria that we are really struggling to treat, that
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they would thrive in hospitals. Because that is where we
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use a ton of different antibiotics. Now, it is really
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hard to put numbers around your risk of getting infected
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by a.
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Superbug or a super superbug.
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In a hospital. If you're in a richer country, the
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risk is still fairly low. So, for example, in the US,
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about 3% of patients get some kind of infection while
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they're in hospital. And depending on the type of infection,
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a fairly small chunk of those are superbugs. But away
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from rich countries, this can be a lot worse. So
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one study out of Rwanda found that more than three
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out of four hospital infections were superbugs. In Ukraine, before
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the war, it was even worse. It's all enough to
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freak out Fernando.
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I think that any time in the past five years
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since I've been working on superbugs and antibiotic resistance, any
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time a loved one is hospitalized for, you know, any reason,
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you know, minor surgery or anything like that, I immediately
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get paranoid. Oh, my God, I don't want them to
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get an infection. And it is nerve wracking.
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I mean, the whole thing is really scary.
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Here's that again.
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We're in this race against the bacteria and it feels
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like generally... we're losing that race.
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And if we do lose, we are really screwed. Zooming
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out to all superbugs here, and not just the super
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super ones, already around 50,000 people in the US are
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dying each year from them. And worldwide, it's estimated that
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in 2019, around 1.3 million people died of a superbug infection,
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meaning that these bacteria killed more people that year than
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00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:25.619
AIDS and malaria combined. And, you know, this isn't just
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00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:29.670
about some nasty cut on your leg. If you've ever
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had surgery, cancer treatment, a C-section, your wisdom teeth taken out,
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00:20:35.789 --> 00:20:38.380
All of this kind of becomes a roll of the
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dice if we don't have antibiotics to deal with infections.
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Here's Tina.
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The impacts are just colossal. You know, we have this
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thing where we just turn to antibiotics as being, right,
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they're always there. And what we're saying now is they're
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not going to always be there. So what do we
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do next?
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00:20:56.710 --> 00:21:00.930
What is the biggest misconception that people have about superbugs?
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The scientists will solve it.
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It'll get solved.
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You know what?
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We don't need to worry.
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00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:07.599
They'll sort it out.
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Will you?
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00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:13.660
Coming up after the break? My poo to the rescue?
355
00:21:21.230 --> 00:21:24.130
It's been a busy week, right? Sounds like it's time
356
00:21:24.170 --> 00:21:28.900
for that takeaway. Deliveroo's on it. Whether it's extra saucy
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wings from Nando's, a tasty taco bowl from Sprout & Co,
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or maybe even some California birria from Boojum. We'll deliver
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in as little as 25 minutes. Order now.
360
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You've earned it.
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Deliveroo. That finish line Friday feeling just got even better.
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Geographical restrictions, teas and season fees apply. Delivery times vary.
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See app or web for info.
364
00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.200
Hey, it's Wendy from Science Versus, and I want to
365
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:57.559
tell you about a podcast that I love, Science Friday.
366
00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:00.279
They cover all sorts of amazing things in the weird
367
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:04.359
and wonderful world of science, from how concussions affect our
368
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:07.460
brain to the inner secrets of a snake with a
369
00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:10.099
spider on its tail. It's a lot of news that
370
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:12.599
you can use and some that you can't, but you're
371
00:22:12.619 --> 00:22:13.460
going to love anyway.
372
00:22:13.700 --> 00:22:15.000
It's hosted by Ira Flato and Phyllis.
373
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:18.920
Flora Lichtman, who is an old friend of the show
374
00:22:19.059 --> 00:22:21.819
and loves a pun as much as we do. Science
375
00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:25.069
Friday is on every day, wherever you get your podcasts.
376
00:22:32.410 --> 00:22:35.390
Welcome back. Today, we are looking at the battle between
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00:22:35.430 --> 00:22:40.230
bacteria and us. So far, it's been looking.
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00:22:40.029 --> 00:22:44.640
Like the bugs are winning. But now, We're going to
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00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:47.599
see what scientists are doing to fight back.
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00:22:48.259 --> 00:22:49.759
So we're going to take a deep dive into one
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00:22:49.779 --> 00:22:52.809
of the buzziest ways of tackling this superbug problem.
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00:22:54.029 --> 00:22:58.490
And this is what we're doing. Using viruses to kill superbugs.
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00:22:59.109 --> 00:23:00.069
They're called phages.
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And Fernando, who is at the forefront of this research,
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he knows how it sounds.
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00:23:06.140 --> 00:23:08.240
But aren't viruses supposed to be bad?
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Here's the catch.
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So phages do not harm humans. They cannot infect human cells. Instead,
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phages only infect and then kill bacterial cells.
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00:23:19.819 --> 00:23:23.579
And so going back to my ancient Greek, phages to eat,
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00:23:24.140 --> 00:23:27.680
phage means to eat. So are these viruses eating the bacteria?
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00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:28.720
No, they're so little.
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00:23:28.779 --> 00:23:30.440
They can't, they can like nibble on them.
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00:23:31.339 --> 00:23:35.079
They aren't eating the bacteria. They are killing them in
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a way, cooler way, in my opinion.
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00:23:39.309 --> 00:23:42.150
So phages, yeah, they are tiny.
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They are almost 100 times smaller than bacteria, right? And
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00:23:48.109 --> 00:23:51.210
when you look at them, they look so cool. They
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00:23:51.230 --> 00:23:54.769
look like an alien spaceship, right? So they have this
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00:23:54.910 --> 00:23:59.509
head that is like a hexagonal or polygonal head. And
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00:23:59.549 --> 00:24:03.690
then they have this thin neck and tail. And then
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00:24:03.809 --> 00:24:06.250
at the end of the tail, they have these tiny
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00:24:06.309 --> 00:24:07.650
little legs, right?
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00:24:08.869 --> 00:24:12.390
Fernando tells me that these viruses use those tiny little
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legs to sense their environment.
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And they're hunting for one thing.
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Bacteria.
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Once they recognize one they like, they latch onto it,
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inject their genetic material inside it, and then they.
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00:24:26.069 --> 00:24:30.069
Hijack the bacteria. They tell the bacteria, you know what?
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00:24:30.390 --> 00:24:33.569
You are going to stop doing what you were normally doing.
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You're only going to produce baby phages, baby viruses.
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They create heaps of these baby viruses inside the bacterial cell.
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And eventually, those babies are ready to bust out.
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Boom, it explodes. So tens, tens, sometimes hundreds of these
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tiny viruses are liberated from the exploding bacterial cell and
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they will go on to infect the neighboring bacterial cells.
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So yeah, they are not eating the bacteria per se.
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They are making it explode with hundreds of tiny baby viruses,
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which is perhaps a little bit more difficult to explain,
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but it is way, way cooler.
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00:25:18.869 --> 00:25:19.829
So far, so good.
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Phages are viruses that make superbugs go boom. And this
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00:25:24.609 --> 00:25:29.069
might sound like sci-fi, but it isn't theoretical. We are
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doing all this in patients now. It's actually Fernando's job
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to find a phage that can be used to kill
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a patient's superbug infection. But first, he has to find
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the right phage. Because these phages, they can be really picky.
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Often one kind of phage will only infect one type
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00:25:50.730 --> 00:25:54.630
of bug, say an E. coli. So when Fernando has
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00:25:54.670 --> 00:25:57.670
a patient that is sick with a superbug, he's got
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to find the right assassin for the job.
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Where does he start?
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Sewage.
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00:26:04.930 --> 00:26:06.769
So sewage like Melbourne sewage.
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As in Melbourne sewage.
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Fernando opens the door to a dark room.
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Okay, we're going into the cold room now.
439
00:26:16.650 --> 00:26:20.430
It is chilly. And he shows me his pride and joy.
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00:26:20.450 --> 00:26:23.269
The sewage sample that I prepared for you.
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00:26:23.569 --> 00:26:24.670
No one's ever said that to me.
442
00:26:25.789 --> 00:26:28.890
I prepared with a lot of love some sewage for you, Wendy.
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00:26:29.470 --> 00:26:32.509
And for the whole team. So I hope you appreciate it.
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00:26:33.509 --> 00:26:35.480
By the time I see it, there's no chunks in it,
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00:26:35.849 --> 00:26:39.609
let's say. It kind of looks like an olive martini.
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00:26:41.390 --> 00:26:43.130
Like a very dirty martini, yeah.
447
00:26:43.849 --> 00:26:46.890
And the reason that Fernando is looking for phages inside
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00:26:46.950 --> 00:26:50.730
this very dirty martini is because.
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00:26:50.589 --> 00:26:54.200
Wherever there is poo, there is bacteria living in it.
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00:26:54.589 --> 00:26:57.910
And where bacteria live, there tends to be viruses that
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00:26:57.950 --> 00:27:02.299
want to prey on that bacteria. So when Fernando has
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00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:06.349
a patient who's sick, infected with a superbug, what he's
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00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:09.930
hoping is that someone in Melbourne will be carrying that
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00:27:10.009 --> 00:27:13.470
specific phage. So then he can bottle it up and
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00:27:13.750 --> 00:27:16.829
use it for his patients. And Fernando doesn't just go
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00:27:16.890 --> 00:27:20.769
looking for phages in our crap, but also in water
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00:27:20.890 --> 00:27:22.170
that's all over the place.
458
00:27:22.809 --> 00:27:26.930
So my partner thinks that I have this weird obsession
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00:27:27.049 --> 00:27:31.259
with dirty water. Because every time we come across, you know,
460
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:34.960
a puddle, a pond, something that looks gross and has
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00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:37.660
water in it, I think, ooh, I bet I could
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00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:40.440
get some really cool phages out of this. He thinks
463
00:27:40.500 --> 00:27:43.299
it's weird. He thinks it's completely weird. But yeah, I
464
00:27:43.319 --> 00:27:44.720
guess it's one of my quirks now.
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00:27:45.380 --> 00:27:47.819
Once he gets that dirty water, to see if there's
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00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:52.420
any superbug-killing phages inside it, Basically, he'll mix a dash
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00:27:52.460 --> 00:27:56.160
of superbug with a sprinkling of dirty sewage water, let
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00:27:56.200 --> 00:27:58.880
it incubate, put it on an agar plate, bada bink,
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00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:01.089
bada boom, he passes me a plate.
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00:28:01.109 --> 00:28:04.970
Okay, okay.
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00:28:05.150 --> 00:28:10.190
What do you see? I, oh gosh, I guess I
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00:28:10.230 --> 00:28:11.910
see like little bubbles.
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00:28:12.150 --> 00:28:13.990
They are like tiny little pinpricks.
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00:28:14.779 --> 00:28:18.220
So what you're seeing there is bacterial death. There's nothing
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00:28:18.259 --> 00:28:22.059
growing there. we just see a bacterial graveyard.
476
00:28:23.099 --> 00:28:23.700
Really?
477
00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:25.400
So yeah, really cool.
478
00:28:26.849 --> 00:28:30.930
Seeing this bacterial graveyard is the moment Fernando thinks he's
479
00:28:30.970 --> 00:28:34.410
found a killer phage. And from here, him and his
480
00:28:34.470 --> 00:28:37.269
team will purify and test it, bottle it up and
481
00:28:37.390 --> 00:28:40.349
put it in a vial, ready for a patient. And
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00:28:40.369 --> 00:28:43.029
he's been doing this over and over again, building up
483
00:28:43.250 --> 00:28:46.630
what he calls a phage library. Now that I've moved
484
00:28:46.650 --> 00:28:50.470
to Melbourne, it is possible that MyCraft helped create this
485
00:28:50.529 --> 00:28:51.230
phage library.
486
00:28:51.269 --> 00:28:54.650
Is that right? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
487
00:28:54.750 --> 00:29:01.099
I feel so good. You're doing a good deed, 100%.
488
00:29:01.099 --> 00:29:05.380
So this is all very exciting. MyCraft, saving lives.
489
00:29:06.220 --> 00:29:11.460
With phages, have we solved, have you solved the superbug crisis?
490
00:29:12.369 --> 00:29:14.970
I would love to say that I have, but no.
491
00:29:15.329 --> 00:29:20.579
Absolutely not. By themselves, phages will not be able to
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00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:21.839
solve this issue.
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00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:24.859
One of the reasons that phages won't get us out
494
00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:29.160
of this mess is because, like a man, a good
495
00:29:29.220 --> 00:29:33.609
phage can be hard to find. So, for example, Fernando
496
00:29:33.690 --> 00:29:37.109
told me about this one patient who had a superbug infection,
497
00:29:37.130 --> 00:29:40.049
and Fernando was searching for a phage that.
498
00:29:39.950 --> 00:29:41.450
Could kill it for months.
499
00:29:42.230 --> 00:29:45.819
You know, getting negative result after negative result and after
500
00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:49.880
negative result, nothing was a hit. There were many times
501
00:29:50.039 --> 00:29:53.920
when I thought that it was pointless. And then there
502
00:29:53.960 --> 00:29:57.960
was one morning when I just opened the incubator door
503
00:29:57.980 --> 00:30:01.299
and took the plate out and the moment I quickly
504
00:30:01.390 --> 00:30:05.640
glanced at the plate, I already saw, boom, that beautiful
505
00:30:06.099 --> 00:30:09.440
zone of clearing. And it's just the best feeling ever.
506
00:30:09.859 --> 00:30:13.720
What did you do as soon as you saw it? I.
507
00:30:14.059 --> 00:30:17.880
You know, I just jumped and said, yes. So that
508
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:21.109
was amazing. That was amazing knowing that I had finally
509
00:30:21.190 --> 00:30:23.950
found a phage against this particular superbug.
510
00:30:24.990 --> 00:30:25.829
Amazing, yes.
511
00:30:26.740 --> 00:30:29.319
But it's not practical to think that we could do
512
00:30:29.380 --> 00:30:34.779
this for everyone who gets some weird superbug infection. And
513
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:38.009
that's why Fernando is building that phage library, in the
514
00:30:38.049 --> 00:30:40.670
hopes that he won't have to sift through my crap
515
00:30:40.750 --> 00:30:45.910
for every single patient. But there is another problem here.
516
00:30:46.849 --> 00:30:49.759
The jury is actually still out on how well this
517
00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:53.200
treatment works. For now, it's only given to people who
518
00:30:53.299 --> 00:30:56.180
are really, really sick, kind of like a last resort.
519
00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:00.440
One analysis of 20 patients who had used phage therapy
520
00:31:00.900 --> 00:31:04.920
saw it was helping over half of them. The patient
521
00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:08.660
Fernando found that phage for, well, at first the treatment
522
00:31:08.700 --> 00:31:12.789
looked like it was going really well, but ultimately they
523
00:31:12.829 --> 00:31:17.349
died of other causes. And just quickly, there is one
524
00:31:17.509 --> 00:31:22.029
final wrinkle in this phage idea. You see, studies in
525
00:31:22.109 --> 00:31:25.750
rodents are showing that a very familiar problem may soon
526
00:31:25.789 --> 00:31:26.180
pop up.
527
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:31.210
Bacteria or superbugs can also become resistant to phages.
528
00:31:31.289 --> 00:31:36.309
Yeah, they're not taking this lying down, this phage attack.
529
00:31:36.509 --> 00:31:41.430
They will come up with ways to attack back. So
530
00:31:41.609 --> 00:31:45.130
it's this arms race between bacteria and phages.
531
00:31:45.609 --> 00:31:48.670
Researchers are trying to get around this by giving antibiotics
532
00:31:48.869 --> 00:31:52.329
and phages to patients because studies have found that this
533
00:31:52.450 --> 00:31:55.569
can help. Now, none of this means that phage therapy
534
00:31:55.650 --> 00:31:58.569
is a bad idea. You know, scientists are using this
535
00:31:58.710 --> 00:32:02.640
all around the world to save people's lives. But it
536
00:32:02.660 --> 00:32:07.640
does mean that this shiny technology, it's not a silver bullet.
537
00:32:08.740 --> 00:32:11.970
And it's not a substitute for all those ideas that
538
00:32:12.170 --> 00:32:14.609
you might have been hearing about for ages to help
539
00:32:14.670 --> 00:32:20.089
us solve this superbug crisis. Like, we still need new antibiotics,
540
00:32:20.730 --> 00:32:26.910
ones that bacteria aren't resistant to yet. And meanwhile, Big
541
00:32:26.970 --> 00:32:30.079
Pharma has been pulling out of this space because it's
542
00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:32.839
not worth it for them to make antibiotics. That's for
543
00:32:32.859 --> 00:32:36.660
a lot of reasons, but one is that we'd only
544
00:32:36.819 --> 00:32:40.740
use these drugs to treat a disease quickly rather than, say,
545
00:32:40.940 --> 00:32:43.940
a heart disease drug that you'd be popping for years.
546
00:32:45.730 --> 00:32:49.490
And as for the antibiotics that we do have, we've
547
00:32:49.509 --> 00:32:52.650
got to cool our jets with them. In 2019, the
548
00:32:52.670 --> 00:32:56.769
CDC estimated that almost a third of the antibiotics prescribed
549
00:32:56.930 --> 00:33:01.500
by U.S. doctors' offices and emergency departments were unnecessary.
550
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:02.920
A third.
551
00:33:03.779 --> 00:33:08.180
And through the pandemic, this got even worse. Unnecessary antibiotic
552
00:33:08.220 --> 00:33:13.210
prescriptions jumped. And now, superbug infections are on the rise too.
553
00:33:15.539 --> 00:33:18.319
We can try to keep coming up with new therapies
554
00:33:18.420 --> 00:33:21.480
or new solutions for the infections that are already happening.
555
00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:25.319
But the idea is to stop this evolution, this process
556
00:33:25.380 --> 00:33:29.309
from happening in the first place. So we don't want
557
00:33:29.349 --> 00:33:32.569
to focus too much on the Band-Aid. We really need
558
00:33:32.589 --> 00:33:35.150
to focus on what is causing the wound in the
559
00:33:35.190 --> 00:33:39.210
first place. So we need to stop taking antibiotics if
560
00:33:39.269 --> 00:33:44.640
we don't need them. Doctors, clinicians only prescribe antibiotics when
561
00:33:44.700 --> 00:33:48.059
you are sure that patients need them. So let's be
562
00:33:48.140 --> 00:33:51.240
rational about our use of antibiotics in general.
563
00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:54.319
If I was into poetry, I would be clicking you
564
00:33:54.339 --> 00:33:57.529
right now, but I really can't get away with that stuff.
565
00:33:58.589 --> 00:33:59.470
That's science versus.
566
00:34:03.980 --> 00:34:04.480
Hey, hey.
567
00:34:04.619 --> 00:34:09.059
Hi, Joel Werner, our new supervising producer here at Science Versus.
568
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:12.920
Hey, Wendy. Very stoked to be on the team. It's, yeah,
569
00:34:13.059 --> 00:34:15.179
it's great to do my first citations chat.
570
00:34:15.260 --> 00:34:16.369
You've won awards.
571
00:34:17.030 --> 00:34:18.869
You've done all the things, but have you had a
572
00:34:18.929 --> 00:34:20.570
citations chat, Joel?
573
00:34:20.670 --> 00:34:23.670
All of those moments have been building to this particular
574
00:34:23.730 --> 00:34:26.820
moment where I get to reveal the number of citations
575
00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:30.690
in this week's Science Versus episode. Should I reach for
576
00:34:30.710 --> 00:34:37.820
the envelope? All right, so can I just say now?
577
00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:39.860
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't done this before.
578
00:34:39.940 --> 00:34:41.380
I'm not very good at it.
579
00:34:42.099 --> 00:34:45.730
This week on the show, we had 138 citations. 138.
580
00:34:45.730 --> 00:34:49.670
And if people want to see these citations, where should
581
00:34:49.710 --> 00:34:49.969
they go?
582
00:34:50.090 --> 00:34:52.510
They should click on the link in the show notes
583
00:34:52.650 --> 00:34:54.989
that will take them to the transcript where it's all
584
00:34:55.010 --> 00:34:55.789
laid out for them.
585
00:34:56.010 --> 00:34:56.710
It's very easy.
586
00:34:56.829 --> 00:34:57.820
It's very easy, yes.
587
00:34:57.909 --> 00:34:58.539
And while.
588
00:34:59.260 --> 00:35:01.659
You are there, listener.
589
00:35:01.820 --> 00:35:04.320
Looking at the show notes or looking at your podcast app.
590
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:07.179
You should give us a review, a five-star review.
591
00:35:07.739 --> 00:35:10.360
Next week we have an episode on pit bulls, asking
592
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:14.159
are they dangerous dogs that should be banned or misunderstood
593
00:35:14.300 --> 00:35:15.039
cuddly pets?
594
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:16.420
This one surprised me.
595
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:19.969
I'm going to say I came into this episode with
596
00:35:19.989 --> 00:35:23.750
some strongly held beliefs about pit bulls, but they've been
597
00:35:23.789 --> 00:35:25.650
shaken up a bit.
598
00:35:26.030 --> 00:35:27.090
Thanks so much, Joel.
599
00:35:27.130 --> 00:35:28.750
Thanks, Wendy. See you. Bye. Bye.
600
00:35:35.340 --> 00:35:38.539
This episode was produced by me, Wendy Zuckerman, with help
601
00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:42.199
from Joel Werner, Rose Rimler, Meryl Horne, Ari Natovich and
602
00:35:42.219 --> 00:35:46.449
Michelle Dang. We're edited by Blythe Terrell. Gimlet's managing director
603
00:35:46.550 --> 00:35:50.650
is Nicole Beamstier-Boer. Fact-checking by Carmen Drahl. Mix and sound
604
00:35:50.670 --> 00:35:54.409
design by Catherine Anderson. Music written by Bobby Lord, Emma Munger,
605
00:35:54.610 --> 00:35:57.860
So Wiley and Bumi Hidaka. Thanks to all of the
606
00:35:57.889 --> 00:36:02.960
researchers we spoke to for this episode, including Professor Evgeny Sokuryenko,
607
00:36:03.460 --> 00:36:08.820
Professor Anton Pellig, Professor John Iredale, Dr. Alejandro Chavez, Dr.
608
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:16.440
Branwen Morgan, Professor Asad Khan, Dr. Ramanan Laxminarayan, Dr. Vanina Gelnier, Dr.
609
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:20.699
Callum Walsh, Dr. Claire Gorey, and Dr. Mark Stegger. A
610
00:36:20.719 --> 00:36:24.420
special thanks to Dr. Carl, Piers Singhi, Flora Lichtman, the
611
00:36:24.440 --> 00:36:28.170
Zuckerman family, and Joseph Lavelle Wilson. Science Versus is a
612
00:36:28.210 --> 00:36:30.929
Spotify original podcast and a Gimlet production.
613
00:36:31.289 --> 00:36:32.880
Follow Science Versus on Spotify.
614
00:36:33.380 --> 00:36:35.980
And if you want to receive notifications every time we
615
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:39.559
put out a new episode, which you do, then tap
616
00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:42.340
on this little icon of a bell. Yes, there's this
617
00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:45.480
little bell icon. And if you just tap that, then
618
00:36:45.500 --> 00:36:49.869
you'll get notifications every time Science Versus is out. I'm
619
00:36:49.889 --> 00:36:50.510
Wendy Zuckerman.
620
00:36:50.949 --> 00:36:51.590
Back to you next time.
621
00:37:00.179 --> 00:37:03.690
So, okay, so to prepare for this interview, I was
622
00:37:03.750 --> 00:37:07.070
reading your CV and I noticed that you were the
623
00:37:07.130 --> 00:37:08.530
valedictorian of your high school.
624
00:37:08.550 --> 00:37:14.139
Congratulations. Thank you. And university.
625
00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:19.699
So when do you think you should take off your
626
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:21.599
high school achievements from your resume?
627
00:37:21.619 --> 00:37:27.510
Yeah. They'll be there until, I don't know, 40? Does
628
00:37:27.510 --> 00:37:32.460
40 sound good? Now you've made me really self-conscious. Now
629
00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:35.559
I'm going to go and edit my CV. The moment
630
00:37:35.579 --> 00:37:38.280
this interview is over, I'm going there and editing and
631
00:37:38.380 --> 00:37:39.639
I'm going to edit my CV.
632
00:37:39.659 --> 00:37:40.500
So thank you for that.
633
00:37:41.539 --> 00:37:44.469
It's been a busy week, right? Sounds like it's time
634
00:37:44.510 --> 00:37:49.219
for that takeaway. Deliveroo's on it. Whether it's extra saucy
635
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:53.500
wings from Nando's, a tasty taco bowl from Sprout & Co,
636
00:37:53.980 --> 00:37:58.030
or maybe even some California birria from Boojum. We'll deliver
637
00:37:58.130 --> 00:38:02.130
in as little as 25 minutes. Order now. You've earned it.
638
00:38:02.590 --> 00:38:03.170
Deliveroo.
639
00:38:03.730 --> 00:38:08.250
That finish line Friday feeling just got even better. Geographical restrictions,
640
00:38:08.289 --> 00:38:10.550
teas and season fees apply. Delivery times vary. See app
641
00:38:10.570 --> 00:38:11.250
or web for info.
1
00:00:02.129 --> 00:00:02.690
Hello.
2
00:00:04.370 --> 00:00:04.990
Shall we go up?
3
00:00:05.349 --> 00:00:05.669
Yes.
4
00:00:05.929 --> 00:00:06.719
All right, let's do it.
5
00:00:08.310 --> 00:00:08.750
Here we go.
6
00:00:11.470 --> 00:00:14.589
I'm at the Alfred Hospital in Melbourne, Australia, with Dr
7
00:00:14.650 --> 00:00:18.789
Fernando Godillo-Altamirano, and we're headed to a research lab attached
8
00:00:18.809 --> 00:00:22.410
to the hospital. This is my first lab tour post-COVID.
9
00:00:22.609 --> 00:00:23.010
Oh, really?
10
00:00:23.030 --> 00:00:25.750
I wonder if the beakers still look the same.
11
00:00:26.010 --> 00:00:28.250
They look exactly the same. They haven't changed.
12
00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:33.140
At first, this looks like any other lab. You know,
13
00:00:33.179 --> 00:00:36.829
the drill, test tubes, white walls, lab coats. But then
14
00:00:37.329 --> 00:00:40.250
Fernando walks me to a room filled with big freezers.
15
00:00:41.090 --> 00:00:44.609
And in here, there's something that you don't see in
16
00:00:44.670 --> 00:00:48.619
every lab. What is inside these freezers?
17
00:00:49.399 --> 00:00:49.979
Superbugs.
18
00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:53.520
Superbugs.
19
00:00:54.380 --> 00:00:58.560
Bacteria that can't be killed by some of our strongest antibiotics.
20
00:00:59.670 --> 00:01:03.649
And I'm in a room filled with them. Whoa!
21
00:01:04.129 --> 00:01:07.489
And I'm not wearing a mask! Well, they are all frozen.
22
00:01:07.510 --> 00:01:11.250
They are technically harmless in their current state.
23
00:01:11.329 --> 00:01:22.920
Technically harmless? Fernando carefully opens the freezer door and white
24
00:01:23.079 --> 00:01:27.200
fog snakes out. It looks like we're in Penguin's Lair,
25
00:01:27.640 --> 00:01:31.849
you know, from Batman. When the fog clears, I can
26
00:01:31.890 --> 00:01:34.709
see shelves filled with thousands of vials.
27
00:01:36.109 --> 00:01:36.469
Okay.
28
00:01:36.670 --> 00:01:39.689
So this is like superbug central.
29
00:01:41.510 --> 00:01:44.310
I'm Wendy Zuckerman and you're listening to Science Versus from Gimlet.
30
00:01:44.810 --> 00:01:49.700
And today we're pitting facts against infections as we look
31
00:01:49.939 --> 00:01:50.799
at superbugs.
32
00:01:52.060 --> 00:01:52.319
Okay.
33
00:01:52.900 --> 00:01:54.760
So you know how Fernando just said that we were
34
00:01:54.819 --> 00:01:58.420
safe because the superbugs were contained and frozen?
35
00:01:59.439 --> 00:01:59.620
Well.
36
00:02:00.250 --> 00:02:04.390
I just unfroze from our freezers that you just saw
37
00:02:04.969 --> 00:02:05.469
four of them.
38
00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:07.420
What?
39
00:02:07.530 --> 00:02:12.300
It's like the scariest cooking show you've ever seen. I'm
40
00:02:12.340 --> 00:02:15.460
looking at some of the deadliest bacteria in the world.
41
00:02:16.219 --> 00:02:19.719
And I know I'm making jokes because that's kind of
42
00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:22.960
what I do. But looking down at these agar plates,
43
00:02:24.139 --> 00:02:28.030
it is freaky. I mean, just imagine getting an infection
44
00:02:28.060 --> 00:02:31.250
with one of these, a UTI or a nasty cough
45
00:02:31.289 --> 00:02:35.289
like pneumonia. Going to the doctor and having no little
46
00:02:35.370 --> 00:02:39.030
pill to make you feel better. One woman survived a
47
00:02:39.110 --> 00:02:43.110
suicide bombing in Brussels only to almost die because her
48
00:02:43.150 --> 00:02:47.150
wounds got infected with a superbug. In fact, the bacteria
49
00:02:47.189 --> 00:02:50.530
that almost killed her was the same species that I'm
50
00:02:50.629 --> 00:02:52.030
staring at right now.
51
00:02:52.849 --> 00:02:53.409
The bugs?
52
00:02:53.430 --> 00:02:53.500
Yes.
53
00:02:53.979 --> 00:02:58.370
Have been recognised as the most dangerous ones in terms
54
00:02:58.569 --> 00:03:01.729
of antibiotic resistance. And when a patient gets infected by
55
00:03:01.830 --> 00:03:05.569
one of these bad guys, that patient is in serious trouble.
56
00:03:07.250 --> 00:03:10.250
For years, we've been hearing about this problem, that our
57
00:03:10.289 --> 00:03:13.740
drugs aren't working as well as they used to. But recently,
58
00:03:13.979 --> 00:03:17.400
it feels like things have gotten out of hand. Because
59
00:03:17.740 --> 00:03:21.259
if you've been watching the news, it's not only that these.
60
00:03:21.159 --> 00:03:22.599
Bugs are super scary.
61
00:03:24.020 --> 00:03:28.539
but they're also everywhere. It's as if they're ready to
62
00:03:28.599 --> 00:03:31.819
infect us when we take the train. On the underground,
63
00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:35.379
they found traces of nine so-called superbugs, which are the...
64
00:03:35.300 --> 00:03:36.439
Or eat a chicken burger.
65
00:03:36.580 --> 00:03:37.009
Listen up.
66
00:03:37.460 --> 00:03:40.520
A recent study shows that nearly 80% of the meat
67
00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:44.870
in U.S. supermarkets contains antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
68
00:03:45.379 --> 00:03:47.889
Or even get crapped on by a seagull.
69
00:03:48.189 --> 00:03:53.129
Researchers finding one in five seagulls carry superbugs resistant to antibiotics.
70
00:03:54.460 --> 00:03:57.439
One headline screamed that if we don't do something soon,
71
00:03:57.879 --> 00:04:03.750
we're headed towards an impending superbug apocalypse. The end to
72
00:04:03.830 --> 00:04:05.409
modern medicine as we know it.
73
00:04:10.250 --> 00:04:13.590
So today on the show, is this for real? Are
74
00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:16.560
superbugs really everywhere?
75
00:04:16.579 --> 00:04:20.639
And what are scientists doing about all this? Because it
76
00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:23.379
turns out that here at this lab that I'm visiting,
77
00:04:24.189 --> 00:04:28.470
they're recruiting an unexpected soldier in this fight with the
78
00:04:28.529 --> 00:04:31.269
help of perhaps my turds.
79
00:04:31.910 --> 00:04:35.110
You're doing a good deed, a good deed for the
80
00:04:35.129 --> 00:04:37.029
patients here, 100%.
81
00:04:37.029 --> 00:04:39.069
When it comes to superbugs, a lot of people are
82
00:04:39.100 --> 00:04:40.339
saying that we live in.
83
00:04:40.879 --> 00:04:42.839
Superbug central.
84
00:04:43.139 --> 00:04:49.990
But then there's science. Science Vest as Superbugs is coming up.
85
00:04:57.430 --> 00:05:00.329
It's been a busy week, right? Sounds like it's time
86
00:05:00.370 --> 00:05:05.110
for that takeaway. Deliveroo's on it. Whether it's extra saucy
87
00:05:05.170 --> 00:05:09.350
wings from Nando's, a tasty taco bowl from Sprout & Co,
88
00:05:09.870 --> 00:05:13.910
or maybe even some California birria from Boojum. We'll deliver
89
00:05:14.009 --> 00:05:16.910
in as little as 25 minutes. Order now.
90
00:05:17.129 --> 00:05:18.009
You've earned it.
91
00:05:18.470 --> 00:05:22.649
Deliveroo. That finish line Friday feeling just got even better.
92
00:05:23.209 --> 00:05:26.009
Geographical restrictions, teas and season fees apply. Delivery times vary.
93
00:05:26.050 --> 00:05:27.129
See app or web for info.
94
00:05:33.790 --> 00:05:37.730
Welcome back. Today, we're on the hunt for superbugs, bacteria
95
00:05:37.750 --> 00:05:39.829
that have learned to fight off our antibiotics.
96
00:05:40.589 --> 00:05:43.379
And we're asking, how bad is this?
97
00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:47.019
And to get to the bottom of that, we first
98
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want to know where these bugs are hiding. Because as
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you just heard in the news, it seems like they're everywhere.
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Is that true?
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Is that true?
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To find out, we called up Ed Fahl, a professor
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at the University of Bath in the UK, whose team
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recently went searching for superbugs in a city called Pavia.
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Here's Ed.
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It's beautiful.
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It's very typically Italian.
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Pavia is in northern Italy.
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Picture it. Cobblestone streets. Great food. In fact, he told
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me that this is the region where Gorgonzola is made.
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I don't know.
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What more can I say about Pavia? I recommend it.
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And so in this land of cheese, Ed got three
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very fastidious research assistants to go searching for superbugs, taking
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swabs all over the city.
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And I mean all over.
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Swings and benches, samples from ATM machines, buses. And they
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even sampled the holy water in the cathedral.
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Okay, the holy water?
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Like they snuck into the cathedral with a little swabber?
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Yeah, yeah, they took a little sample of that.
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And they went all over the hospitals too, sampling patients
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and surfaces. And then they went out of the city
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and onto the surrounding farms to the pigs, chickens and cows.
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And how did you take the samples from the cows?
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So rectal swabs... Mostly. Up the butt? Up the butt, yeah.
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I have a little game.
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I try and make every academic say up the butt
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at least once during our interview.
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Yeah, okay.
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That's fine. I'm happy with that.
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Then they all got busy at the lab, genetically sequencing
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the samples, more than 3,000 of them. And basically, Ed
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and his team wanted to know, where are the superbugs?
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And for the real nerds out there, Ed was looking
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for superbugs within the genus Klebsiella. Okay, so first, some
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good news. The holy water?
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Came up negative, I'm pleased to say.
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So the good people of Pavia can relax that that's fine.
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But then, the bad news. They found that around the
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town and on the farms, there were a lot of
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bacteria that had resistance to some antibiotics. Tricks up their
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sleeves to fend off drugs like penicillin or streptomycin.
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These were found in the soil, on poultry, dogs, cats.
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So you see those basically everywhere.
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They're everywhere. I mean, they're out of the box now.
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So, I mean, just think of it as a type
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of pollution, really.
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And it turns out that this isn't just happening in
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beautiful Pavia. Antibiotic-resistant bacteria really have been found all over
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the place. Yes, in subways, sausages and seagulls. but also
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hitching a ride on tiny pieces of plastic in the ocean.
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They've been found in the Arctic, and something that really
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blew my mind, they've even been found in an isolated
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cave in New Mexico that's a thousand feet underground. So
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how the hell did this happen? I talked about this
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with Dr Fernando Gordillo Altamirano. He's the guy that showed
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us around the superbug freezer. And Fernando told me that
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this all started a very, very, very long time ago.
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Antibiotic resistance is not man-made, right? It is a phenomenon
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that occurs naturally.
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Bacteria started learning tricks to outsmart antibiotics way before we
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started popping them for our infections. And that's because bacteria
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have always had enemies. Things in nature, like fungi, that
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wanted to kill them. And so the fungi, they had
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their own antibiotics. Chemicals to destroy bacteria. In fact, we
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got penicillin from fungus.
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Thanks.
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So this all means that from a bacteria's perspective... they
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need to come up with ways to fight back. And
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they've been doing this for thousands of years. I mean, literally,
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we have evidence in the permafrost that bacteria had.
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This superpower 30,000 years ago.
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So....
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This is one reason why we're seeing antibiotic-resistant bacteria all
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over the place. Because they've been doing this for ages.
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Where humans accelerate this process is when we start introducing
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antibiotics into the environment. And we are using on a
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massive scale.
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Around the world, we take billions of antibiotics each year,
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and it's only growing today. We give a ton to
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our livestock too, not just to kill disease, but to
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make our animals grow faster. And each time we use antibiotics,
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we put bacteria in this very clear position, evolve some
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way to get around it, or die. And so bacteria
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have been evolving. And by the way, this isn't just
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happening in bacteria. Ever since we started using antifungals, we've
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also been seeing more resistance with fungal infections. But of course,
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you guys all know that, thanks to that HBO doco,
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The Last of Us. Okay, but back to bacteria. So
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now these bugs have all these tricks to outsmart our drugs. Like,
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for example, some of them make enzymes that chew up
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our antibiotics. And the way that these tricks have spread
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so quickly is partly because once a bacteria learns a
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new trick, they can share it with their friends. And
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one of the ways they do that is through this
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process called conjugation.
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And boy, is it interesting.
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Tina Joshi at the University of Plymouth in the UK.
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It sounds very sexy because like conjugation sounds.
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It is like bacterial sex.
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When I teach about it, I say it's bacterial.
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Sex, right?
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It's bacterial sex.
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It literally is.
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When bacteria learn a new trick to fight off our antibiotics,
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it might start by just a random mutation in their genetics.
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One little letter in their DNA flips, and this gives
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them an advantage. Conjugation is the process where some bacteria
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can then share those genes. And here's how it works.
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So picture it.
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Bacteria is swimming about. And then this appendage called a penis. Sorry,
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a pillus emerges from the bacteria.
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Like a stick, a stick that comes out of it.
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And it's like a little thin strand that's coming out.
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It's like a little thin hair almost. And that's really
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biologically incorrect. So sorry for everyone who's a scientist listening. But,
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you know, it's a bit like a hair moving through.
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The pillus of the superbug finds a friendly bacteria and
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attaches on. And meanwhile, the superbug has copied part of
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its DNA, including the part that helped it fight off
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our antibiotics. So then what happens is that the superbug
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DNA moves through the pillus and into the friendly bacteria.
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So that ultimately, where we had one superbug, now we
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have two. And this bacterial sex, it can happen between
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different species. In fact, there was this case report of
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a guy who had a really scary superbug infection that
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was shrugging off our most powerful antibiotics. Doctors were freaking out. Anyway,
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the infection was caused by a bacteria called Klebsiella. But
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inside this guy, researchers saw that the superbug gene had
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already jumped into an E.
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Coli.
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And that superbug gene, it's since been found all over
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the world in more than a dozen different species. And
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the thing that I never thought about is that all
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this bacterial sex, it isn't happening at a seedy motel
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down the road.
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It's going on inside us.
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All the time, yeah, all the time inside us. That
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gene swapping between bacteria is always happening.
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Because wherever there are bacteria, there is bacterial sex. And
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you know, in just one bout of bacterial bonking, they'll
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often pass on not just one trick to fend off
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our antibiotics, but a whole superbug goodie bag.
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And the spread is just phenomenal. And we can't control it.
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I mean, we can't control evolution. We might think we can,
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and we might think we're the most evolved species in
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the universe, but we cannot control bacterial evolution. All we
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can do is just look and think, oh my God. Sorry,
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I don't want it to be scary.
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But it does sound scary.
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These bacteria are doing all this hanky-panky all over the place,
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sharing resistance to our antibiotics, and they've been found all
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over the world doing this.
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Our next question is, I don't know, why aren't we
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all dead?
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Well, the thing is that even though these bacteria are special,
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they're not super dangerous. in every single way. Like they're
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not necessarily nastier or more contagious than regular bacteria. So
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a lot of the time our immune system can actually
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keep them in check. In fact, what we're learning is
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that you can even be carrying a superbug like in
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your belly and not even know it. One study looked
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at more than a thousand poo samples and found that
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9% of the turds had antibiotic resistant E.
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Coli in them.
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I asked Ed about this. You know, the guy whose
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team was snooping around the holy water in Pavia. I
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think we assume that if a bug has a resistance
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to antibiotics or even multiple resistances, that it is inherently
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dangerous and nasty. But actually, it could just sit in
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your gut happily and like not cause any disease. Like
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those are two separate things.
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They're very much separate things.
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Yes.
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So a superbug. isn't any more likely to cause disease.
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It's just that if it does, it's harder to treat.
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But where superbugs do become a real problem is in hospitals.
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And that's partly because you have people who are already sick,
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whose immune systems might be a little weak, and it's
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easier for any kind of bacteria, super or not, to
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take hold. And in fact, hospitals are a big superbug
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problem for another reason. because it's also where you find
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the scariest of the superbugs.
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Okay, so the bacteria that.
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We're finding on our trains and meat, while they might
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be resistant to some antibiotics, we still have ways of
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killing them. Even MRSA, which you hear about people getting
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in locker rooms. While the infections can be nasty... we
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haven't completely run out of ways to kill that bacteria.
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So while these bugs are bad news, they're not the
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worst news. The bacteria that are resistant to basically all
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the antibiotics we have, let's call them super, super bugs,
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you're most likely to run into those in one place.
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And that's hospitals.
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Super, super bugs.
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They haven't made it out of the hospitals at all,
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as far as we can tell.
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That's right.
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When Ed's team ransacked Pavia for them, these super, super
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bugs were only in the hospitals. Other studies around the
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world mostly find the same thing, that hospitals are ground
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zero for this. And it makes sense that super, super bugs,
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the bacteria that we are really struggling to treat, that
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they would thrive in hospitals. Because that is where we
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use a ton of different antibiotics. Now, it is really
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hard to put numbers around your risk of getting infected
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by a.
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Superbug or a super superbug.
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In a hospital. If you're in a richer country, the
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risk is still fairly low. So, for example, in the US,
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about 3% of patients get some kind of infection while
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they're in hospital. And depending on the type of infection,
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a fairly small chunk of those are superbugs. But away
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from rich countries, this can be a lot worse. So
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one study out of Rwanda found that more than three
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out of four hospital infections were superbugs. In Ukraine, before
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the war, it was even worse. It's all enough to
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freak out Fernando.
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I think that any time in the past five years
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since I've been working on superbugs and antibiotic resistance, any
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time a loved one is hospitalized for, you know, any reason,
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you know, minor surgery or anything like that, I immediately
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get paranoid. Oh, my God, I don't want them to
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get an infection. And it is nerve wracking.
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I mean, the whole thing is really scary.
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Here's that again.
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We're in this race against the bacteria and it feels
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like generally... we're losing that race.
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And if we do lose, we are really screwed. Zooming
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out to all superbugs here, and not just the super
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super ones, already around 50,000 people in the US are
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dying each year from them. And worldwide, it's estimated that
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in 2019, around 1.3 million people died of a superbug infection,
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meaning that these bacteria killed more people that year than
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AIDS and malaria combined. And, you know, this isn't just
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about some nasty cut on your leg. If you've ever
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had surgery, cancer treatment, a C-section, your wisdom teeth taken out,
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All of this kind of becomes a roll of the
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dice if we don't have antibiotics to deal with infections.
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Here's Tina.
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The impacts are just colossal. You know, we have this
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thing where we just turn to antibiotics as being, right,
344
00:20:50.849 --> 00:20:53.869
they're always there. And what we're saying now is they're
345
00:20:53.910 --> 00:20:55.890
not going to always be there. So what do we
346
00:20:55.910 --> 00:20:56.490
do next?
347
00:20:56.710 --> 00:21:00.930
What is the biggest misconception that people have about superbugs?
348
00:21:01.349 --> 00:21:02.509
The scientists will solve it.
349
00:21:03.859 --> 00:21:04.579
It'll get solved.
350
00:21:05.420 --> 00:21:05.920
You know what?
351
00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:06.759
We don't need to worry.
352
00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:07.599
They'll sort it out.
353
00:21:08.420 --> 00:21:08.900
Will you?
354
00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:13.660
Coming up after the break? My poo to the rescue?
355
00:21:21.230 --> 00:21:24.130
It's been a busy week, right? Sounds like it's time
356
00:21:24.170 --> 00:21:28.900
for that takeaway. Deliveroo's on it. Whether it's extra saucy
357
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:33.180
wings from Nando's, a tasty taco bowl from Sprout & Co,
358
00:21:33.660 --> 00:21:37.680
or maybe even some California birria from Boojum. We'll deliver
359
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in as little as 25 minutes. Order now.
360
00:21:40.940 --> 00:21:41.799
You've earned it.
361
00:21:42.259 --> 00:21:46.450
Deliveroo. That finish line Friday feeling just got even better.
362
00:21:46.990 --> 00:21:49.829
Geographical restrictions, teas and season fees apply. Delivery times vary.
363
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See app or web for info.
364
00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.200
Hey, it's Wendy from Science Versus, and I want to
365
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:57.559
tell you about a podcast that I love, Science Friday.
366
00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:00.279
They cover all sorts of amazing things in the weird
367
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:04.359
and wonderful world of science, from how concussions affect our
368
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:07.460
brain to the inner secrets of a snake with a
369
00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:10.099
spider on its tail. It's a lot of news that
370
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:12.599
you can use and some that you can't, but you're
371
00:22:12.619 --> 00:22:13.460
going to love anyway.
372
00:22:13.700 --> 00:22:15.000
It's hosted by Ira Flato and Phyllis.
373
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:18.920
Flora Lichtman, who is an old friend of the show
374
00:22:19.059 --> 00:22:21.819
and loves a pun as much as we do. Science
375
00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:25.069
Friday is on every day, wherever you get your podcasts.
376
00:22:32.410 --> 00:22:35.390
Welcome back. Today, we are looking at the battle between
377
00:22:35.430 --> 00:22:40.230
bacteria and us. So far, it's been looking.
378
00:22:40.029 --> 00:22:44.640
Like the bugs are winning. But now, We're going to
379
00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:47.599
see what scientists are doing to fight back.
380
00:22:48.259 --> 00:22:49.759
So we're going to take a deep dive into one
381
00:22:49.779 --> 00:22:52.809
of the buzziest ways of tackling this superbug problem.
382
00:22:54.029 --> 00:22:58.490
And this is what we're doing. Using viruses to kill superbugs.
383
00:22:59.109 --> 00:23:00.069
They're called phages.
384
00:23:00.950 --> 00:23:03.910
And Fernando, who is at the forefront of this research,
385
00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:05.579
he knows how it sounds.
386
00:23:06.140 --> 00:23:08.240
But aren't viruses supposed to be bad?
387
00:23:08.980 --> 00:23:09.640
Here's the catch.
388
00:23:10.130 --> 00:23:15.099
So phages do not harm humans. They cannot infect human cells. Instead,
389
00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:19.519
phages only infect and then kill bacterial cells.
390
00:23:19.819 --> 00:23:23.579
And so going back to my ancient Greek, phages to eat,
391
00:23:24.140 --> 00:23:27.680
phage means to eat. So are these viruses eating the bacteria?
392
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:28.720
No, they're so little.
393
00:23:28.779 --> 00:23:30.440
They can't, they can like nibble on them.
394
00:23:31.339 --> 00:23:35.079
They aren't eating the bacteria. They are killing them in
395
00:23:35.380 --> 00:23:38.690
a way, cooler way, in my opinion.
396
00:23:39.309 --> 00:23:42.150
So phages, yeah, they are tiny.
397
00:23:42.250 --> 00:23:47.569
They are almost 100 times smaller than bacteria, right? And
398
00:23:48.109 --> 00:23:51.210
when you look at them, they look so cool. They
399
00:23:51.230 --> 00:23:54.769
look like an alien spaceship, right? So they have this
400
00:23:54.910 --> 00:23:59.509
head that is like a hexagonal or polygonal head. And
401
00:23:59.549 --> 00:24:03.690
then they have this thin neck and tail. And then
402
00:24:03.809 --> 00:24:06.250
at the end of the tail, they have these tiny
403
00:24:06.309 --> 00:24:07.650
little legs, right?
404
00:24:08.869 --> 00:24:12.390
Fernando tells me that these viruses use those tiny little
405
00:24:12.430 --> 00:24:14.329
legs to sense their environment.
406
00:24:15.029 --> 00:24:17.390
And they're hunting for one thing.
407
00:24:18.589 --> 00:24:19.190
Bacteria.
408
00:24:20.269 --> 00:24:22.710
Once they recognize one they like, they latch onto it,
409
00:24:22.869 --> 00:24:25.809
inject their genetic material inside it, and then they.
410
00:24:26.069 --> 00:24:30.069
Hijack the bacteria. They tell the bacteria, you know what?
411
00:24:30.390 --> 00:24:33.569
You are going to stop doing what you were normally doing.
412
00:24:33.970 --> 00:24:38.259
You're only going to produce baby phages, baby viruses.
413
00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:43.539
They create heaps of these baby viruses inside the bacterial cell.
414
00:24:44.829 --> 00:24:48.930
And eventually, those babies are ready to bust out.
415
00:24:50.109 --> 00:24:56.230
Boom, it explodes. So tens, tens, sometimes hundreds of these
416
00:24:56.390 --> 00:25:01.630
tiny viruses are liberated from the exploding bacterial cell and
417
00:25:01.650 --> 00:25:04.890
they will go on to infect the neighboring bacterial cells.
418
00:25:05.339 --> 00:25:08.480
So yeah, they are not eating the bacteria per se.
419
00:25:08.660 --> 00:25:13.099
They are making it explode with hundreds of tiny baby viruses,
420
00:25:13.539 --> 00:25:16.609
which is perhaps a little bit more difficult to explain,
421
00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:18.309
but it is way, way cooler.
422
00:25:18.869 --> 00:25:19.829
So far, so good.
423
00:25:20.289 --> 00:25:24.470
Phages are viruses that make superbugs go boom. And this
424
00:25:24.609 --> 00:25:29.069
might sound like sci-fi, but it isn't theoretical. We are
425
00:25:29.109 --> 00:25:33.720
doing all this in patients now. It's actually Fernando's job
426
00:25:33.779 --> 00:25:36.140
to find a phage that can be used to kill
427
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:41.220
a patient's superbug infection. But first, he has to find
428
00:25:41.369 --> 00:25:46.410
the right phage. Because these phages, they can be really picky.
429
00:25:47.150 --> 00:25:50.670
Often one kind of phage will only infect one type
430
00:25:50.730 --> 00:25:54.630
of bug, say an E. coli. So when Fernando has
431
00:25:54.670 --> 00:25:57.670
a patient that is sick with a superbug, he's got
432
00:25:57.690 --> 00:25:59.990
to find the right assassin for the job.
433
00:26:01.420 --> 00:26:02.119
Where does he start?
434
00:26:03.569 --> 00:26:04.009
Sewage.
435
00:26:04.930 --> 00:26:06.769
So sewage like Melbourne sewage.
436
00:26:07.170 --> 00:26:08.549
As in Melbourne sewage.
437
00:26:09.269 --> 00:26:11.509
Fernando opens the door to a dark room.
438
00:26:12.089 --> 00:26:14.369
Okay, we're going into the cold room now.
439
00:26:16.650 --> 00:26:20.430
It is chilly. And he shows me his pride and joy.
440
00:26:20.450 --> 00:26:23.269
The sewage sample that I prepared for you.
441
00:26:23.569 --> 00:26:24.670
No one's ever said that to me.
442
00:26:25.789 --> 00:26:28.890
I prepared with a lot of love some sewage for you, Wendy.
443
00:26:29.470 --> 00:26:32.509
And for the whole team. So I hope you appreciate it.
444
00:26:33.509 --> 00:26:35.480
By the time I see it, there's no chunks in it,
445
00:26:35.849 --> 00:26:39.609
let's say. It kind of looks like an olive martini.
446
00:26:41.390 --> 00:26:43.130
Like a very dirty martini, yeah.
447
00:26:43.849 --> 00:26:46.890
And the reason that Fernando is looking for phages inside
448
00:26:46.950 --> 00:26:50.730
this very dirty martini is because.
449
00:26:50.589 --> 00:26:54.200
Wherever there is poo, there is bacteria living in it.
450
00:26:54.589 --> 00:26:57.910
And where bacteria live, there tends to be viruses that
451
00:26:57.950 --> 00:27:02.299
want to prey on that bacteria. So when Fernando has
452
00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:06.349
a patient who's sick, infected with a superbug, what he's
453
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:09.930
hoping is that someone in Melbourne will be carrying that
454
00:27:10.009 --> 00:27:13.470
specific phage. So then he can bottle it up and
455
00:27:13.750 --> 00:27:16.829
use it for his patients. And Fernando doesn't just go
456
00:27:16.890 --> 00:27:20.769
looking for phages in our crap, but also in water
457
00:27:20.890 --> 00:27:22.170
that's all over the place.
458
00:27:22.809 --> 00:27:26.930
So my partner thinks that I have this weird obsession
459
00:27:27.049 --> 00:27:31.259
with dirty water. Because every time we come across, you know,
460
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:34.960
a puddle, a pond, something that looks gross and has
461
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:37.660
water in it, I think, ooh, I bet I could
462
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:40.440
get some really cool phages out of this. He thinks
463
00:27:40.500 --> 00:27:43.299
it's weird. He thinks it's completely weird. But yeah, I
464
00:27:43.319 --> 00:27:44.720
guess it's one of my quirks now.
465
00:27:45.380 --> 00:27:47.819
Once he gets that dirty water, to see if there's
466
00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:52.420
any superbug-killing phages inside it, Basically, he'll mix a dash
467
00:27:52.460 --> 00:27:56.160
of superbug with a sprinkling of dirty sewage water, let
468
00:27:56.200 --> 00:27:58.880
it incubate, put it on an agar plate, bada bink,
469
00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:01.089
bada boom, he passes me a plate.
470
00:28:01.109 --> 00:28:04.970
Okay, okay.
471
00:28:05.150 --> 00:28:10.190
What do you see? I, oh gosh, I guess I
472
00:28:10.230 --> 00:28:11.910
see like little bubbles.
473
00:28:12.150 --> 00:28:13.990
They are like tiny little pinpricks.
474
00:28:14.779 --> 00:28:18.220
So what you're seeing there is bacterial death. There's nothing
475
00:28:18.259 --> 00:28:22.059
growing there. we just see a bacterial graveyard.
476
00:28:23.099 --> 00:28:23.700
Really?
477
00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:25.400
So yeah, really cool.
478
00:28:26.849 --> 00:28:30.930
Seeing this bacterial graveyard is the moment Fernando thinks he's
479
00:28:30.970 --> 00:28:34.410
found a killer phage. And from here, him and his
480
00:28:34.470 --> 00:28:37.269
team will purify and test it, bottle it up and
481
00:28:37.390 --> 00:28:40.349
put it in a vial, ready for a patient. And
482
00:28:40.369 --> 00:28:43.029
he's been doing this over and over again, building up
483
00:28:43.250 --> 00:28:46.630
what he calls a phage library. Now that I've moved
484
00:28:46.650 --> 00:28:50.470
to Melbourne, it is possible that MyCraft helped create this
485
00:28:50.529 --> 00:28:51.230
phage library.
486
00:28:51.269 --> 00:28:54.650
Is that right? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
487
00:28:54.750 --> 00:29:01.099
I feel so good. You're doing a good deed, 100%.
488
00:29:01.099 --> 00:29:05.380
So this is all very exciting. MyCraft, saving lives.
489
00:29:06.220 --> 00:29:11.460
With phages, have we solved, have you solved the superbug crisis?
490
00:29:12.369 --> 00:29:14.970
I would love to say that I have, but no.
491
00:29:15.329 --> 00:29:20.579
Absolutely not. By themselves, phages will not be able to
492
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:21.839
solve this issue.
493
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:24.859
One of the reasons that phages won't get us out
494
00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:29.160
of this mess is because, like a man, a good
495
00:29:29.220 --> 00:29:33.609
phage can be hard to find. So, for example, Fernando
496
00:29:33.690 --> 00:29:37.109
told me about this one patient who had a superbug infection,
497
00:29:37.130 --> 00:29:40.049
and Fernando was searching for a phage that.
498
00:29:39.950 --> 00:29:41.450
Could kill it for months.
499
00:29:42.230 --> 00:29:45.819
You know, getting negative result after negative result and after
500
00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:49.880
negative result, nothing was a hit. There were many times
501
00:29:50.039 --> 00:29:53.920
when I thought that it was pointless. And then there
502
00:29:53.960 --> 00:29:57.960
was one morning when I just opened the incubator door
503
00:29:57.980 --> 00:30:01.299
and took the plate out and the moment I quickly
504
00:30:01.390 --> 00:30:05.640
glanced at the plate, I already saw, boom, that beautiful
505
00:30:06.099 --> 00:30:09.440
zone of clearing. And it's just the best feeling ever.
506
00:30:09.859 --> 00:30:13.720
What did you do as soon as you saw it? I.
507
00:30:14.059 --> 00:30:17.880
You know, I just jumped and said, yes. So that
508
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:21.109
was amazing. That was amazing knowing that I had finally
509
00:30:21.190 --> 00:30:23.950
found a phage against this particular superbug.
510
00:30:24.990 --> 00:30:25.829
Amazing, yes.
511
00:30:26.740 --> 00:30:29.319
But it's not practical to think that we could do
512
00:30:29.380 --> 00:30:34.779
this for everyone who gets some weird superbug infection. And
513
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:38.009
that's why Fernando is building that phage library, in the
514
00:30:38.049 --> 00:30:40.670
hopes that he won't have to sift through my crap
515
00:30:40.750 --> 00:30:45.910
for every single patient. But there is another problem here.
516
00:30:46.849 --> 00:30:49.759
The jury is actually still out on how well this
517
00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:53.200
treatment works. For now, it's only given to people who
518
00:30:53.299 --> 00:30:56.180
are really, really sick, kind of like a last resort.
519
00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:00.440
One analysis of 20 patients who had used phage therapy
520
00:31:00.900 --> 00:31:04.920
saw it was helping over half of them. The patient
521
00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:08.660
Fernando found that phage for, well, at first the treatment
522
00:31:08.700 --> 00:31:12.789
looked like it was going really well, but ultimately they
523
00:31:12.829 --> 00:31:17.349
died of other causes. And just quickly, there is one
524
00:31:17.509 --> 00:31:22.029
final wrinkle in this phage idea. You see, studies in
525
00:31:22.109 --> 00:31:25.750
rodents are showing that a very familiar problem may soon
526
00:31:25.789 --> 00:31:26.180
pop up.
527
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:31.210
Bacteria or superbugs can also become resistant to phages.
528
00:31:31.289 --> 00:31:36.309
Yeah, they're not taking this lying down, this phage attack.
529
00:31:36.509 --> 00:31:41.430
They will come up with ways to attack back. So
530
00:31:41.609 --> 00:31:45.130
it's this arms race between bacteria and phages.
531
00:31:45.609 --> 00:31:48.670
Researchers are trying to get around this by giving antibiotics
532
00:31:48.869 --> 00:31:52.329
and phages to patients because studies have found that this
533
00:31:52.450 --> 00:31:55.569
can help. Now, none of this means that phage therapy
534
00:31:55.650 --> 00:31:58.569
is a bad idea. You know, scientists are using this
535
00:31:58.710 --> 00:32:02.640
all around the world to save people's lives. But it
536
00:32:02.660 --> 00:32:07.640
does mean that this shiny technology, it's not a silver bullet.
537
00:32:08.740 --> 00:32:11.970
And it's not a substitute for all those ideas that
538
00:32:12.170 --> 00:32:14.609
you might have been hearing about for ages to help
539
00:32:14.670 --> 00:32:20.089
us solve this superbug crisis. Like, we still need new antibiotics,
540
00:32:20.730 --> 00:32:26.910
ones that bacteria aren't resistant to yet. And meanwhile, Big
541
00:32:26.970 --> 00:32:30.079
Pharma has been pulling out of this space because it's
542
00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:32.839
not worth it for them to make antibiotics. That's for
543
00:32:32.859 --> 00:32:36.660
a lot of reasons, but one is that we'd only
544
00:32:36.819 --> 00:32:40.740
use these drugs to treat a disease quickly rather than, say,
545
00:32:40.940 --> 00:32:43.940
a heart disease drug that you'd be popping for years.
546
00:32:45.730 --> 00:32:49.490
And as for the antibiotics that we do have, we've
547
00:32:49.509 --> 00:32:52.650
got to cool our jets with them. In 2019, the
548
00:32:52.670 --> 00:32:56.769
CDC estimated that almost a third of the antibiotics prescribed
549
00:32:56.930 --> 00:33:01.500
by U.S. doctors' offices and emergency departments were unnecessary.
550
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:02.920
A third.
551
00:33:03.779 --> 00:33:08.180
And through the pandemic, this got even worse. Unnecessary antibiotic
552
00:33:08.220 --> 00:33:13.210
prescriptions jumped. And now, superbug infections are on the rise too.
553
00:33:15.539 --> 00:33:18.319
We can try to keep coming up with new therapies
554
00:33:18.420 --> 00:33:21.480
or new solutions for the infections that are already happening.
555
00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:25.319
But the idea is to stop this evolution, this process
556
00:33:25.380 --> 00:33:29.309
from happening in the first place. So we don't want
557
00:33:29.349 --> 00:33:32.569
to focus too much on the Band-Aid. We really need
558
00:33:32.589 --> 00:33:35.150
to focus on what is causing the wound in the
559
00:33:35.190 --> 00:33:39.210
first place. So we need to stop taking antibiotics if
560
00:33:39.269 --> 00:33:44.640
we don't need them. Doctors, clinicians only prescribe antibiotics when
561
00:33:44.700 --> 00:33:48.059
you are sure that patients need them. So let's be
562
00:33:48.140 --> 00:33:51.240
rational about our use of antibiotics in general.
563
00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:54.319
If I was into poetry, I would be clicking you
564
00:33:54.339 --> 00:33:57.529
right now, but I really can't get away with that stuff.
565
00:33:58.589 --> 00:33:59.470
That's science versus.
566
00:34:03.980 --> 00:34:04.480
Hey, hey.
567
00:34:04.619 --> 00:34:09.059
Hi, Joel Werner, our new supervising producer here at Science Versus.
568
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:12.920
Hey, Wendy. Very stoked to be on the team. It's, yeah,
569
00:34:13.059 --> 00:34:15.179
it's great to do my first citations chat.
570
00:34:15.260 --> 00:34:16.369
You've won awards.
571
00:34:17.030 --> 00:34:18.869
You've done all the things, but have you had a
572
00:34:18.929 --> 00:34:20.570
citations chat, Joel?
573
00:34:20.670 --> 00:34:23.670
All of those moments have been building to this particular
574
00:34:23.730 --> 00:34:26.820
moment where I get to reveal the number of citations
575
00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:30.690
in this week's Science Versus episode. Should I reach for
576
00:34:30.710 --> 00:34:37.820
the envelope? All right, so can I just say now?
577
00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:39.860
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't done this before.
578
00:34:39.940 --> 00:34:41.380
I'm not very good at it.
579
00:34:42.099 --> 00:34:45.730
This week on the show, we had 138 citations. 138.
580
00:34:45.730 --> 00:34:49.670
And if people want to see these citations, where should
581
00:34:49.710 --> 00:34:49.969
they go?
582
00:34:50.090 --> 00:34:52.510
They should click on the link in the show notes
583
00:34:52.650 --> 00:34:54.989
that will take them to the transcript where it's all
584
00:34:55.010 --> 00:34:55.789
laid out for them.
585
00:34:56.010 --> 00:34:56.710
It's very easy.
586
00:34:56.829 --> 00:34:57.820
It's very easy, yes.
587
00:34:57.909 --> 00:34:58.539
And while.
588
00:34:59.260 --> 00:35:01.659
You are there, listener.
589
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Looking at the show notes or looking at your podcast app.
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00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:07.179
You should give us a review, a five-star review.
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00:35:07.739 --> 00:35:10.360
Next week we have an episode on pit bulls, asking
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are they dangerous dogs that should be banned or misunderstood
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00:35:14.300 --> 00:35:15.039
cuddly pets?
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00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:16.420
This one surprised me.
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00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:19.969
I'm going to say I came into this episode with
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00:35:19.989 --> 00:35:23.750
some strongly held beliefs about pit bulls, but they've been
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00:35:23.789 --> 00:35:25.650
shaken up a bit.
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00:35:26.030 --> 00:35:27.090
Thanks so much, Joel.
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00:35:27.130 --> 00:35:28.750
Thanks, Wendy. See you. Bye. Bye.
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00:35:35.340 --> 00:35:38.539
This episode was produced by me, Wendy Zuckerman, with help
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00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:42.199
from Joel Werner, Rose Rimler, Meryl Horne, Ari Natovich and
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00:35:42.219 --> 00:35:46.449
Michelle Dang. We're edited by Blythe Terrell. Gimlet's managing director
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00:35:46.550 --> 00:35:50.650
is Nicole Beamstier-Boer. Fact-checking by Carmen Drahl. Mix and sound
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00:35:50.670 --> 00:35:54.409
design by Catherine Anderson. Music written by Bobby Lord, Emma Munger,
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00:35:54.610 --> 00:35:57.860
So Wiley and Bumi Hidaka. Thanks to all of the
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00:35:57.889 --> 00:36:02.960
researchers we spoke to for this episode, including Professor Evgeny Sokuryenko,
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00:36:03.460 --> 00:36:08.820
Professor Anton Pellig, Professor John Iredale, Dr. Alejandro Chavez, Dr.
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00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:16.440
Branwen Morgan, Professor Asad Khan, Dr. Ramanan Laxminarayan, Dr. Vanina Gelnier, Dr.
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00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:20.699
Callum Walsh, Dr. Claire Gorey, and Dr. Mark Stegger. A
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00:36:20.719 --> 00:36:24.420
special thanks to Dr. Carl, Piers Singhi, Flora Lichtman, the
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00:36:24.440 --> 00:36:28.170
Zuckerman family, and Joseph Lavelle Wilson. Science Versus is a
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00:36:28.210 --> 00:36:30.929
Spotify original podcast and a Gimlet production.
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00:36:31.289 --> 00:36:32.880
Follow Science Versus on Spotify.
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00:36:33.380 --> 00:36:35.980
And if you want to receive notifications every time we
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00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:39.559
put out a new episode, which you do, then tap
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00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:42.340
on this little icon of a bell. Yes, there's this
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00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:45.480
little bell icon. And if you just tap that, then
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00:36:45.500 --> 00:36:49.869
you'll get notifications every time Science Versus is out. I'm
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00:36:49.889 --> 00:36:50.510
Wendy Zuckerman.
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00:36:50.949 --> 00:36:51.590
Back to you next time.
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00:37:00.179 --> 00:37:03.690
So, okay, so to prepare for this interview, I was
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00:37:03.750 --> 00:37:07.070
reading your CV and I noticed that you were the
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00:37:07.130 --> 00:37:08.530
valedictorian of your high school.
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00:37:08.550 --> 00:37:14.139
Congratulations. Thank you. And university.
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00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:19.699
So when do you think you should take off your
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00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:21.599
high school achievements from your resume?
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00:37:21.619 --> 00:37:27.510
Yeah. They'll be there until, I don't know, 40? Does
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00:37:27.510 --> 00:37:32.460
40 sound good? Now you've made me really self-conscious. Now
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00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:35.559
I'm going to go and edit my CV. The moment
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00:37:35.579 --> 00:37:38.280
this interview is over, I'm going there and editing and
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00:37:38.380 --> 00:37:39.639
I'm going to edit my CV.
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00:37:39.659 --> 00:37:40.500
So thank you for that.
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00:37:41.539 --> 00:37:44.469
It's been a busy week, right? Sounds like it's time
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00:37:44.510 --> 00:37:49.219
for that takeaway. Deliveroo's on it. Whether it's extra saucy
635
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:53.500
wings from Nando's, a tasty taco bowl from Sprout & Co,
636
00:37:53.980 --> 00:37:58.030
or maybe even some California birria from Boojum. We'll deliver
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00:37:58.130 --> 00:38:02.130
in as little as 25 minutes. Order now. You've earned it.
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00:38:02.590 --> 00:38:03.170
Deliveroo.
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00:38:03.730 --> 00:38:08.250
That finish line Friday feeling just got even better. Geographical restrictions,
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00:38:08.289 --> 00:38:10.550
teas and season fees apply. Delivery times vary. See app
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00:38:10.570 --> 00:38:11.250
or web for info.
