Rishanka Jones: Hello and welcome to my show. My name is Rishanka Jones. And today we're talking about a topic that a lot of you have reached out to me about. What kind of school should we pick for our kid, private or public? There's so much confusion on this topic. Some people think that the $50,000 price tag is a great investment for their children. And some people think that the vast resources that public schools provide is a great safety net. Today I have with me Dr. T. Jameson Brewer. Welcome Dr. Jameson.
Jameson Brewer: thanks for having me.
Rishanka Jones: All right, so Dr. Brewer let's just jump right to start fair because I don't want this podcast to ⁓ one type versus the other. What is the superpower of a great public school and what is the superpower of a great private school?
Jameson Brewer: a great question I think public education ⁓ has lots of in no particular ⁓ order of the greatest superpowers public schools is that ⁓ they are public in nature Every single child is welcome attend every single child that is here in the nation has access to a public education, that are staffing public schools, have degrees, master's they have doctorates in their subject fields, they've gone through some type of certification they continue to do development to grow as an educator and again, so what you have here you have an entire group of teachers and educators We will professional and qualified providing that access that service to ⁓ literally every student of their income of their race their many of those things When it comes to private education, at least in my view, I do think that public schools do offer a little bit more in terms of benefits for families, parents, students. Private education can beneficial in terms of picking and choosing. Say that a student wants to focus on something specific like STEM. are private schools that have that hyper Focus on a particular topic that particular field and that could be beneficial Both have their benefits both have setbacks their downsides But I do happen to come from ⁓ the public education is the better in terms of what is offered ⁓ ⁓ comes from decades decades of the research literature that we have at our disposal.
Rishanka Jones: Yeah, no, thank you for giving that perspective. I do know that you have a teaching background as well in a public school. So that of course helps. let's talk about the safety net ⁓ and the agility. So schools are required law to have deep resources for every type of learner, But private schools don't have that. They can pivot quickly and try new things like learning outside and doing outdoor learning How do decide between the legal protections of the public school, versus all this flexibility that private schools have?
Jameson Brewer: schools, they do have that but I don't think that they have a monopoly on that type of flexibility. just talking about going outside and having classes outside, ⁓ lots of public schools do that. I mean, you might find some schools where the doesn't allow that but generally the public space... has the same type of flexibility, but to your point, if a parent and I'm a parent of two school-aged children as well, if I'm raising the question, I going to send my child to a private school, generally I do have to answer some questions about what my student might lose as a result of that. private schools require that the student and the parents align with a particular religious point of view or political point of view. That is not the case in the public space. But in those private worlds, we generally find is that ⁓ don't provide things like transportation, right? So that would be a question if going to send my kids to a private school, what type of transportation possibilities exist? But one of the largest things that we see private schools do not have in terms of their flexibility is that the vast majority of them do not provide full services students with special needs. Right, so if I'm a parent with a child who has special needs, particular private school may not have the full staff that be needed to attend to my child plus other children's needs for their caseload, whereas the public school is required by law to do that. ⁓ Lots choice here, but yeah, use your phrase, the safety net of the public school, the public school because it is ⁓ the cornerstone our democracy, It has a significant amount of regulations that require that the needs of all students be met. Whereas in the private space, they don't have those same obligations.
Rishanka Jones: That's a fantastic point because I just did a podcast on 504 IEP plans that the public school offers to children with learning disabilities. I would argue there are certain private schools in the broader DC area that have specific programs for children with learning disabilities. Of course, they're very expensive. come with a very high price tag. thank you so much for that perspective. Moving on to teachers' expertise, there's an assumption that... private school would have better teachers, they're more qualified, have better certifications. When I did my research, I found out that the public school system actually has a more rigorous process for their teachers and making sure their teachers have the right certifications and have gone through that diligence Private schools, on other hand, can hire experts and they may or may not be certified. This is my biggest learning. which one actually benefits the students more?
Jameson Brewer: and so let ⁓ say about ⁓ private space. There are certainly ⁓ teachers private schools that they have a degree, they have a license, they ⁓ what would consider to be traditional credentialing and training and all of that. But none of for the most part ⁓ across the private that is not a requirement. you find a teacher in a private school that has a degree, they have some of degree, whether that is in the content area or in pedagogy or curriculum and instruction, that tends to be the exception the rule, whereas in the public space, to your point, because ⁓ public schools are regulated as and extensions, the state as collective of our society, we get to have an oversight on teacher credentialing, whereas in the private space we do not. if I happen to run a private school and I'm the principal, I have the autonomy to hire any teacher that I want. That person could be somebody who ⁓ never completed school. This could be a person without a high school diploma who is teaching in the school, but in the private space we don't have the same type of ⁓ regulation as we do in the public space That of activity is allowed when it to producing academic outcomes ⁓ if we at public schools versus private schools ⁓ and things the the NAEP test SAT scores college all of those things that we might measure successful education Generally speaking on the service, private school students do outperform their public school counterparts. we often fail to understand is that we attribute that difference in success. We it to the treatment, ⁓ right? see those metrics and say, ⁓ well, private schools are better or maybe the teachers at the private schools are better than their public school counterparts. But what know is that the household income most students who are attending private schools is exceptionally ⁓ than their public school counterparts. There been studies that have done that simply, to move away from this apples to oranges comparison, just looking at the public school space and looking at just the students who have ⁓ similar socioeconomic backgrounds as their private school counterparts,
Rishanka Jones: much time.
Jameson Brewer: when it comes to NAEP testing, it comes to college, when it comes to all those things, public schools by far, ⁓ by far outperform private school space, when it comes to NAEP testing, it comes to college, when it comes to all those things, public schools by far, ⁓ by far outperform private school space, right? So what all this tells us is that the difference in a student doing well in a private school is not necessarily or it be as readily explained by the fact that they went to a private school or the that they have there, but it is usually far more explained the fact that that that trial comes from more affluent background and we've known since the that income, household economy, the higher that is, generally speaking, educational outcomes are higher aswell
Rishanka Jones: Yeah, that's such a fantastic point and actually I have a follow up to that. Public schools serve everyone to your point, right? But private schools have the option of cherry picking and, expelling students who are ⁓ very expensive teach So you're kind of trying to get the best of the best and then you're trying to compare it with the public schools outcome. I don't think that's comparing apples to apples. But ⁓ does this create a success rate for private schools because they only ⁓ keep the kids that easy to educate.
Jameson Brewer: Yeah, 100 % right this effectively Anytime we see Whether it's like a like a think tank or some advocacy group for private education Particularly in the discussion of vouchers to attend private schools, right and perhaps we can talk about that But yeah, a lot of this is a placing of the thumb on the scale
Rishanka Jones: Yeah.
Jameson Brewer: the same thing goes for charter schools, which are a right? It's a hybrid of the public school in the private school space Technically they are still public schools, but generally they have private oversight private governance, right? So it's a blend of these what we see at the charter school space in the same in the in the private school space To your point if a particular student ⁓ who is not testing or is not not behaving well are mechanisms in place at the certainly the private school but even in the charter school where those students could be pushed out They could be counseled out. They could be removed from the school's roster Right to ⁓ their outcomes to make their behavior to make whatever metric we're looking at We can make it look better ⁓ if can pick and choose who we are counting in that process whereas in a public space a public school because No student be turned away right and we should we should celebrate that right the nation we have said that our public schools are going to educate every single student regardless of their race religion their gender any of those things all of those though ⁓ all those students are included in the metrics right so yeah if can cherry pick the students that you're teaching of course the metrics look better
Rishanka Jones: color identity. Yeah. So, you know, one thing I've noticed, I'm talking in general, the public schools in Howard County, are using technology a lot these days. ⁓ A lot of the teaching is being done through YouTube. there's a heavy reliance on technology. Do think it is because of underfunding or is that they're just trying to pivot into a more, say less human and more technology environment where children get used to what's coming for them in the next generation? Because ⁓ then makes wonder what's the point? If you're just gonna turn on the television and tell the children to learn there, then I can just do that at home, right? However, ⁓ have noticed some private schools have hands-on learning, outdoor learning. So is this a fair comparison ⁓ of the systems to find the balance with technology or does private school also use a lot of technology?
Jameson Brewer: Yeah, the latter point, there are definitely private schools that have embraced technology. I I recently heard of ⁓ one is almost exclusively like adopting artificial intelligence, right? And also, let me pause for a moment, right, to be very for your viewers and listeners is that my critique of the private space
Rishanka Jones: technology.
Jameson Brewer: is not to be understood as an across-the-board endorsement of everything that happens in the public space. Like public education, public schools, me personally, I think we're seeing lots of studies come out, really, over last year of the detriment of lot of screen time for students, particularly young students, is likely detrimental to their cognitive growth, right? schools are not doing it perfectly, right? also generally speaking problems that we see in terms of technology adoption and technology reliance in public schools is We've also seen that in private space Yeah, I think that some of might be some cost savings. I think some of them might be a lot of this expectation that because this technology exists because things like artificial intelligence exists that have to adopt it, we have to bring it into the classroom space. I'm currently sold on that argument. I'm not certain to the extent that we have to do those things. I'm certain as we understand more of the detriment that not just technology, but screen time in general on and their education, we will probably pull back from that, but that is going to require, particularly in the public school space, states and local districts push back against this, ⁓ what to be free money or funding for organizations like or organizations like Google that want to put Chromebooks at all students' hands. Right? Of course, paying for that. this is making students into consumers, ⁓ advertising targets Lots discussion to be about that and perhaps pulling back from that recent practice
Rishanka Jones: What I wonder is, in this situation, it's not even about funding because you're kind of already paying the teacher to be in the classroom to teach a particular subject. So for example, if the teacher is doing ELA, is in the classroom or he is in the classroom, but they're still turning on YouTube to teach what is a verb, what is an adjective. That something that I just don't understand. Like if you're there, just teach it and you can of course use that as a supplement. If a child does not understand it from one person, then you turn on the video. So that's something that completely blows my mind. And I don't know why that happens, but I'm not happy about.
Jameson Brewer: ⁓ Yeah, I'm not happy about that either. my experience teaching in K-12, currently as a I future teachers to go into schools, and some of them go teach in the ⁓ private school space. and it's always the case, but generally particular scenario that you described, me if I were the the local school principal that would signify to me that this teacher is lazy right there might be a conversation to be had there, but This why it's so important not only for ⁓ parents be involved and not understand what is happening in the classroom space But specifically in the price in the public school as a if there is a Pedagogical practice that is happening in the the public school that I just need more clarification on ⁓ Perhaps I want to challenge a little bit whether and even all the way up to the curriculum and textbooks that are being used because these are democratic institutions, parents and citizens, community members, they avenues to express those views, right to challenge those practices, to have those conversations, whereas in the private space, if parent says, listen, I don't like what Mr. Smith is doing, he just put on this YouTube video. The answer from the private school simply might be, then go somewhere else, right? ⁓ don't have to do what they don't have to do because they're private in nature, whereas a public school ⁓ to be responsive, yes to the principal, yes to the local school board, ⁓ but to the local citizens and parents.
Rishanka Jones: that makes sense. Moving on, the high tuition costs of private schools. Some of it is just, is it like a designer item where you're kind of paying for the status, the symbol, or does it actually provide that extra value? I do know that there's certain private schools that have smaller classes. ⁓ they have specialized facilities. You go to the school and you're just like, wow, because ⁓ there's pool, there's a tennis court, there's everything that you would pay for outside of a public school for your child to learn. How can a parent tell if the school is actually providing that extra value without being, enamored by all the beautiful things in the private school? Because I know there are certain private schools that actually provide that extra value.
Jameson Brewer: Yeah, generally my reaction to this is that, like a lot of it is manufactured prestige. Right, a particular private school charging $50,000 a year in tuition, yes, some of them may be able to afford lower student to teacher ratios, which is a great thing.
Rishanka Jones: Mm-hmm.
Jameson Brewer: want us as a nation to have a conversation about replicating in the public space so that opportunity is available to all students, but often what we see, and particularly when states pass voucher laws that allow taxpayer dollars to help offset some of tuition costs at the private school, what we see is that private school increases their tuition so that they can get some of that state subsidy money through the voucher. But for ⁓ students were already attending the private school, right? So this is public subsidizing the affluent. But when you get those really high sticker prices on tuition, generally what signifies to me is that that particular school is trying to ⁓ be very with who they allow in, to that family's socioeconomic status. If can restrict, or if I can the parameters where every single student who attends my school, that they come from a family that has a net worth in the millions, we already know that that is likely to have high academic outcomes because of that background. What that then does is I can say, listen, our tuition is $50,000 a year. Look at how great our test scores are relative to other private schools and certainly relative to those public schools. becomes a self-fulfilling ⁓ in the sense of charging that extra fee. It allows to be self-selective because a lot of families will self-select out simply because they can't afford those extra costs. right? This is even further, is cherry picking of the cherry picking.
Rishanka Jones: yeah, that makes sense. Let's talk about the long term impact. You know, everybody's ultimate goal is is get into a good college. Let's get a good job. I want come back to the college bit, but I want let's focus on workforce right now. Do employers really care if the child is coming from a public school with a four point GPA versus a private school with say a three point something GPA.
Jameson Brewer: think on the surface, particularly GPA and things like that, no, I don't think that employers really care about, but what employers do care about, least in my that their prospective employee or current employees are able to work together with each other and with their customers and their clients, ⁓ and these all tend be different types of people. If I were an employer, would understand that, statistically speaking, a student that is coming from a private school, they likely experience a lot of segregation when it comes to isolation with similar socioeconomic status, families with similar race, similar gender, like all of those things, right? They're coming from what effectively might be considered an echo chamber. whereas in the public space, these are graduates that have experiences working with people who look like them and people who don't look like them, people who believe like them and people who don't believe like them. Having conversations with teachers, right, who aren't just reinforcing the things that parents might to hear. It seems to me that employers are prospective employers. would be far more interested in a candidate pool that reflected their current workforce and their customer base as to these segregated little pockets.
Rishanka Jones: my God, that makes so much sense. And that's actually a great segue into my next question, which is, you I've often seen that. private schools aren't actually teaching better, they're actually just better at filtering out families that work better for them, right? so are we just paying for our kids to be around the right network, the right people? And is that network really helpful in the future? Because some people say that having the right network is what makes you successful today.
Jameson Brewer: Yeah, and some of this conversation, I think, bleeds broader discussions about the types of universities that students attend. We generally know that students who attend the Ivy Leagues, Harvard, Columbia, those types of schools, they do develop those networks that it is usually those networks, those graduates get their... particularly their first job and all of that, networks can be very helpful. I the question though that parents have to ask is if my child is going to be in this network ⁓ right through private space, is that the opportunity that I want for them and to what end would networking ⁓ very parameter and and echo chambers of networks that is beneficial within that network, but ⁓ that and maybe it will maybe it will not Will that transfer outside of that particular? Network if child wants to change careers, or if want to move across the country How beneficial is established private network and perhaps it is? But again, I would back to the notion that ⁓ Public schools are specifically designed to help students become future citizens in our nation. that captures all of that, ⁓ ostensibly would capture those other networks.
Rishanka Jones: I feel like if you put a student who's not good at networking, who is not very social, you could put that person in the best private school and they would come out of it without the right network that their parents had actually intended for. ⁓ So I think it's so student and child specific, right? More than anything else, because I've seen it both ways you spoke about Ivy Leagues a little bit, why are some private schools called Ivy League feeders? they basically advertise themselves as Ivy League feeders. And I think that is the number one driving point for so many parents. ⁓ Does that actually work?
Jameson Brewer: ⁓ yes it can, but again, skeptical of any claim that a particular private school or private school network has a monopoly on that process. What far more likely in terms of explaining the phenomenon is simply that parents are the types of parents who come from very affluent backgrounds and probably would not even need the private school connections anyway to get their child into these Ivy League spaces. Right, so again, I would flip the question or the focus on what the family household income looks like as opposed to whether or not a particular private school what type of services they're providing that would not otherwise be the disposal of these families.
Jameson Brewer: thanks for having me.
Rishanka Jones: All right, so Dr. Brewer let's just jump right to start fair because I don't want this podcast to ⁓ one type versus the other. What is the superpower of a great public school and what is the superpower of a great private school?
Jameson Brewer: a great question I think public education ⁓ has lots of in no particular ⁓ order of the greatest superpowers public schools is that ⁓ they are public in nature Every single child is welcome attend every single child that is here in the nation has access to a public education, that are staffing public schools, have degrees, master's they have doctorates in their subject fields, they've gone through some type of certification they continue to do development to grow as an educator and again, so what you have here you have an entire group of teachers and educators We will professional and qualified providing that access that service to ⁓ literally every student of their income of their race their many of those things When it comes to private education, at least in my view, I do think that public schools do offer a little bit more in terms of benefits for families, parents, students. Private education can beneficial in terms of picking and choosing. Say that a student wants to focus on something specific like STEM. are private schools that have that hyper Focus on a particular topic that particular field and that could be beneficial Both have their benefits both have setbacks their downsides But I do happen to come from ⁓ the public education is the better in terms of what is offered ⁓ ⁓ comes from decades decades of the research literature that we have at our disposal.
Rishanka Jones: Yeah, no, thank you for giving that perspective. I do know that you have a teaching background as well in a public school. So that of course helps. let's talk about the safety net ⁓ and the agility. So schools are required law to have deep resources for every type of learner, But private schools don't have that. They can pivot quickly and try new things like learning outside and doing outdoor learning How do decide between the legal protections of the public school, versus all this flexibility that private schools have?
Jameson Brewer: schools, they do have that but I don't think that they have a monopoly on that type of flexibility. just talking about going outside and having classes outside, ⁓ lots of public schools do that. I mean, you might find some schools where the doesn't allow that but generally the public space... has the same type of flexibility, but to your point, if a parent and I'm a parent of two school-aged children as well, if I'm raising the question, I going to send my child to a private school, generally I do have to answer some questions about what my student might lose as a result of that. private schools require that the student and the parents align with a particular religious point of view or political point of view. That is not the case in the public space. But in those private worlds, we generally find is that ⁓ don't provide things like transportation, right? So that would be a question if going to send my kids to a private school, what type of transportation possibilities exist? But one of the largest things that we see private schools do not have in terms of their flexibility is that the vast majority of them do not provide full services students with special needs. Right, so if I'm a parent with a child who has special needs, particular private school may not have the full staff that be needed to attend to my child plus other children's needs for their caseload, whereas the public school is required by law to do that. ⁓ Lots choice here, but yeah, use your phrase, the safety net of the public school, the public school because it is ⁓ the cornerstone our democracy, It has a significant amount of regulations that require that the needs of all students be met. Whereas in the private space, they don't have those same obligations.
Rishanka Jones: That's a fantastic point because I just did a podcast on 504 IEP plans that the public school offers to children with learning disabilities. I would argue there are certain private schools in the broader DC area that have specific programs for children with learning disabilities. Of course, they're very expensive. come with a very high price tag. thank you so much for that perspective. Moving on to teachers' expertise, there's an assumption that... private school would have better teachers, they're more qualified, have better certifications. When I did my research, I found out that the public school system actually has a more rigorous process for their teachers and making sure their teachers have the right certifications and have gone through that diligence Private schools, on other hand, can hire experts and they may or may not be certified. This is my biggest learning. which one actually benefits the students more?
Jameson Brewer: and so let ⁓ say about ⁓ private space. There are certainly ⁓ teachers private schools that they have a degree, they have a license, they ⁓ what would consider to be traditional credentialing and training and all of that. But none of for the most part ⁓ across the private that is not a requirement. you find a teacher in a private school that has a degree, they have some of degree, whether that is in the content area or in pedagogy or curriculum and instruction, that tends to be the exception the rule, whereas in the public space, to your point, because ⁓ public schools are regulated as and extensions, the state as collective of our society, we get to have an oversight on teacher credentialing, whereas in the private space we do not. if I happen to run a private school and I'm the principal, I have the autonomy to hire any teacher that I want. That person could be somebody who ⁓ never completed school. This could be a person without a high school diploma who is teaching in the school, but in the private space we don't have the same type of ⁓ regulation as we do in the public space That of activity is allowed when it to producing academic outcomes ⁓ if we at public schools versus private schools ⁓ and things the the NAEP test SAT scores college all of those things that we might measure successful education Generally speaking on the service, private school students do outperform their public school counterparts. we often fail to understand is that we attribute that difference in success. We it to the treatment, ⁓ right? see those metrics and say, ⁓ well, private schools are better or maybe the teachers at the private schools are better than their public school counterparts. But what know is that the household income most students who are attending private schools is exceptionally ⁓ than their public school counterparts. There been studies that have done that simply, to move away from this apples to oranges comparison, just looking at the public school space and looking at just the students who have ⁓ similar socioeconomic backgrounds as their private school counterparts,
Rishanka Jones: much time.
Jameson Brewer: when it comes to NAEP testing, it comes to college, when it comes to all those things, public schools by far, ⁓ by far outperform private school space, when it comes to NAEP testing, it comes to college, when it comes to all those things, public schools by far, ⁓ by far outperform private school space, right? So what all this tells us is that the difference in a student doing well in a private school is not necessarily or it be as readily explained by the fact that they went to a private school or the that they have there, but it is usually far more explained the fact that that that trial comes from more affluent background and we've known since the that income, household economy, the higher that is, generally speaking, educational outcomes are higher aswell
Rishanka Jones: Yeah, that's such a fantastic point and actually I have a follow up to that. Public schools serve everyone to your point, right? But private schools have the option of cherry picking and, expelling students who are ⁓ very expensive teach So you're kind of trying to get the best of the best and then you're trying to compare it with the public schools outcome. I don't think that's comparing apples to apples. But ⁓ does this create a success rate for private schools because they only ⁓ keep the kids that easy to educate.
Jameson Brewer: Yeah, 100 % right this effectively Anytime we see Whether it's like a like a think tank or some advocacy group for private education Particularly in the discussion of vouchers to attend private schools, right and perhaps we can talk about that But yeah, a lot of this is a placing of the thumb on the scale
Rishanka Jones: Yeah.
Jameson Brewer: the same thing goes for charter schools, which are a right? It's a hybrid of the public school in the private school space Technically they are still public schools, but generally they have private oversight private governance, right? So it's a blend of these what we see at the charter school space in the same in the in the private school space To your point if a particular student ⁓ who is not testing or is not not behaving well are mechanisms in place at the certainly the private school but even in the charter school where those students could be pushed out They could be counseled out. They could be removed from the school's roster Right to ⁓ their outcomes to make their behavior to make whatever metric we're looking at We can make it look better ⁓ if can pick and choose who we are counting in that process whereas in a public space a public school because No student be turned away right and we should we should celebrate that right the nation we have said that our public schools are going to educate every single student regardless of their race religion their gender any of those things all of those though ⁓ all those students are included in the metrics right so yeah if can cherry pick the students that you're teaching of course the metrics look better
Rishanka Jones: color identity. Yeah. So, you know, one thing I've noticed, I'm talking in general, the public schools in Howard County, are using technology a lot these days. ⁓ A lot of the teaching is being done through YouTube. there's a heavy reliance on technology. Do think it is because of underfunding or is that they're just trying to pivot into a more, say less human and more technology environment where children get used to what's coming for them in the next generation? Because ⁓ then makes wonder what's the point? If you're just gonna turn on the television and tell the children to learn there, then I can just do that at home, right? However, ⁓ have noticed some private schools have hands-on learning, outdoor learning. So is this a fair comparison ⁓ of the systems to find the balance with technology or does private school also use a lot of technology?
Jameson Brewer: Yeah, the latter point, there are definitely private schools that have embraced technology. I I recently heard of ⁓ one is almost exclusively like adopting artificial intelligence, right? And also, let me pause for a moment, right, to be very for your viewers and listeners is that my critique of the private space
Rishanka Jones: technology.
Jameson Brewer: is not to be understood as an across-the-board endorsement of everything that happens in the public space. Like public education, public schools, me personally, I think we're seeing lots of studies come out, really, over last year of the detriment of lot of screen time for students, particularly young students, is likely detrimental to their cognitive growth, right? schools are not doing it perfectly, right? also generally speaking problems that we see in terms of technology adoption and technology reliance in public schools is We've also seen that in private space Yeah, I think that some of might be some cost savings. I think some of them might be a lot of this expectation that because this technology exists because things like artificial intelligence exists that have to adopt it, we have to bring it into the classroom space. I'm currently sold on that argument. I'm not certain to the extent that we have to do those things. I'm certain as we understand more of the detriment that not just technology, but screen time in general on and their education, we will probably pull back from that, but that is going to require, particularly in the public school space, states and local districts push back against this, ⁓ what to be free money or funding for organizations like or organizations like Google that want to put Chromebooks at all students' hands. Right? Of course, paying for that. this is making students into consumers, ⁓ advertising targets Lots discussion to be about that and perhaps pulling back from that recent practice
Rishanka Jones: What I wonder is, in this situation, it's not even about funding because you're kind of already paying the teacher to be in the classroom to teach a particular subject. So for example, if the teacher is doing ELA, is in the classroom or he is in the classroom, but they're still turning on YouTube to teach what is a verb, what is an adjective. That something that I just don't understand. Like if you're there, just teach it and you can of course use that as a supplement. If a child does not understand it from one person, then you turn on the video. So that's something that completely blows my mind. And I don't know why that happens, but I'm not happy about.
Jameson Brewer: ⁓ Yeah, I'm not happy about that either. my experience teaching in K-12, currently as a I future teachers to go into schools, and some of them go teach in the ⁓ private school space. and it's always the case, but generally particular scenario that you described, me if I were the the local school principal that would signify to me that this teacher is lazy right there might be a conversation to be had there, but This why it's so important not only for ⁓ parents be involved and not understand what is happening in the classroom space But specifically in the price in the public school as a if there is a Pedagogical practice that is happening in the the public school that I just need more clarification on ⁓ Perhaps I want to challenge a little bit whether and even all the way up to the curriculum and textbooks that are being used because these are democratic institutions, parents and citizens, community members, they avenues to express those views, right to challenge those practices, to have those conversations, whereas in the private space, if parent says, listen, I don't like what Mr. Smith is doing, he just put on this YouTube video. The answer from the private school simply might be, then go somewhere else, right? ⁓ don't have to do what they don't have to do because they're private in nature, whereas a public school ⁓ to be responsive, yes to the principal, yes to the local school board, ⁓ but to the local citizens and parents.
Rishanka Jones: that makes sense. Moving on, the high tuition costs of private schools. Some of it is just, is it like a designer item where you're kind of paying for the status, the symbol, or does it actually provide that extra value? I do know that there's certain private schools that have smaller classes. ⁓ they have specialized facilities. You go to the school and you're just like, wow, because ⁓ there's pool, there's a tennis court, there's everything that you would pay for outside of a public school for your child to learn. How can a parent tell if the school is actually providing that extra value without being, enamored by all the beautiful things in the private school? Because I know there are certain private schools that actually provide that extra value.
Jameson Brewer: Yeah, generally my reaction to this is that, like a lot of it is manufactured prestige. Right, a particular private school charging $50,000 a year in tuition, yes, some of them may be able to afford lower student to teacher ratios, which is a great thing.
Rishanka Jones: Mm-hmm.
Jameson Brewer: want us as a nation to have a conversation about replicating in the public space so that opportunity is available to all students, but often what we see, and particularly when states pass voucher laws that allow taxpayer dollars to help offset some of tuition costs at the private school, what we see is that private school increases their tuition so that they can get some of that state subsidy money through the voucher. But for ⁓ students were already attending the private school, right? So this is public subsidizing the affluent. But when you get those really high sticker prices on tuition, generally what signifies to me is that that particular school is trying to ⁓ be very with who they allow in, to that family's socioeconomic status. If can restrict, or if I can the parameters where every single student who attends my school, that they come from a family that has a net worth in the millions, we already know that that is likely to have high academic outcomes because of that background. What that then does is I can say, listen, our tuition is $50,000 a year. Look at how great our test scores are relative to other private schools and certainly relative to those public schools. becomes a self-fulfilling ⁓ in the sense of charging that extra fee. It allows to be self-selective because a lot of families will self-select out simply because they can't afford those extra costs. right? This is even further, is cherry picking of the cherry picking.
Rishanka Jones: yeah, that makes sense. Let's talk about the long term impact. You know, everybody's ultimate goal is is get into a good college. Let's get a good job. I want come back to the college bit, but I want let's focus on workforce right now. Do employers really care if the child is coming from a public school with a four point GPA versus a private school with say a three point something GPA.
Jameson Brewer: think on the surface, particularly GPA and things like that, no, I don't think that employers really care about, but what employers do care about, least in my that their prospective employee or current employees are able to work together with each other and with their customers and their clients, ⁓ and these all tend be different types of people. If I were an employer, would understand that, statistically speaking, a student that is coming from a private school, they likely experience a lot of segregation when it comes to isolation with similar socioeconomic status, families with similar race, similar gender, like all of those things, right? They're coming from what effectively might be considered an echo chamber. whereas in the public space, these are graduates that have experiences working with people who look like them and people who don't look like them, people who believe like them and people who don't believe like them. Having conversations with teachers, right, who aren't just reinforcing the things that parents might to hear. It seems to me that employers are prospective employers. would be far more interested in a candidate pool that reflected their current workforce and their customer base as to these segregated little pockets.
Rishanka Jones: my God, that makes so much sense. And that's actually a great segue into my next question, which is, you I've often seen that. private schools aren't actually teaching better, they're actually just better at filtering out families that work better for them, right? so are we just paying for our kids to be around the right network, the right people? And is that network really helpful in the future? Because some people say that having the right network is what makes you successful today.
Jameson Brewer: Yeah, and some of this conversation, I think, bleeds broader discussions about the types of universities that students attend. We generally know that students who attend the Ivy Leagues, Harvard, Columbia, those types of schools, they do develop those networks that it is usually those networks, those graduates get their... particularly their first job and all of that, networks can be very helpful. I the question though that parents have to ask is if my child is going to be in this network ⁓ right through private space, is that the opportunity that I want for them and to what end would networking ⁓ very parameter and and echo chambers of networks that is beneficial within that network, but ⁓ that and maybe it will maybe it will not Will that transfer outside of that particular? Network if child wants to change careers, or if want to move across the country How beneficial is established private network and perhaps it is? But again, I would back to the notion that ⁓ Public schools are specifically designed to help students become future citizens in our nation. that captures all of that, ⁓ ostensibly would capture those other networks.
Rishanka Jones: I feel like if you put a student who's not good at networking, who is not very social, you could put that person in the best private school and they would come out of it without the right network that their parents had actually intended for. ⁓ So I think it's so student and child specific, right? More than anything else, because I've seen it both ways you spoke about Ivy Leagues a little bit, why are some private schools called Ivy League feeders? they basically advertise themselves as Ivy League feeders. And I think that is the number one driving point for so many parents. ⁓ Does that actually work?
Jameson Brewer: ⁓ yes it can, but again, skeptical of any claim that a particular private school or private school network has a monopoly on that process. What far more likely in terms of explaining the phenomenon is simply that parents are the types of parents who come from very affluent backgrounds and probably would not even need the private school connections anyway to get their child into these Ivy League spaces. Right, so again, I would flip the question or the focus on what the family household income looks like as opposed to whether or not a particular private school what type of services they're providing that would not otherwise be the disposal of these families.
