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Welcome, Dallas.
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I am so excited to be able to have a great conversation with you here today.
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Let's just start off with just sort of the real simple explanation for our listeners.
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When we talk about an economic ecosystem, like in ordinary plain language, what what does that actually mean?
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Yeah, it's a great question.
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And again, so first of all, just thanks for thanks for having me, inviting me on and and to Verona and Cita and and I'm from Saskatchewan, so it's a pleasure to to uh speak to speak to you today.
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Yeah, so I guess an economic ecosystem, to me, I guess the simplest way to think about it is the difference between a region, regional economy, which is more about like behavior and commuter sheds and stuff like that, and an ecosystem, which is if you if you use the literal definition of ecosystem from nature, where you have, you know, uh think about like a forest with like big trees and small shrubs and like and like fungi and and a stream and a water source and like all these different types of of things that sort of create this symbiosis together and feed off each other to make eat all each other uh thrive, right?
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And so an economic ecosystem is is is just that.
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It's a the idea that you have, say, like a large employer or a major driving industry sector, and then you have like a main street and a and a and retail and and sort of the secondary, tertiary type of uh industries, and and sort of both of those things are needed to actually create an ecosystem.
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And then to add to that is is you you think about all of the different partners and roles that can be played in nurturing that ecosystem.
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And those partners and organizations are all part of that ecosystem.
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So things like banks and financial institutions or or private capital investment or you know, like economic development organizations or municipal governments or or all levels of government, right?
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You can have First Nations governments involved and you can have provincial ministries or or programming involved, and then you could have, you know, specialized banks like like FCC or Business Development Bank or EDC, et cetera.
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And all of those partners all to come together to create this this ecosystem play, if you will, of symbiosis.
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It's like it's kind of like the like the ingredients and and but kind of the more important thing than just having the right plot players, it's about how connecting them and and aligning them.
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So yeah, go ahead.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So if so, like the another way to think of it too is if if an ecosystem, if you just like in nature, if you take out one of the ingredients in that healthy ecosystem, then the whole ecosystem starts to to collapse, right?
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And there's that famous fable about the Yellowstone Park where they where they went in and killed all the wolves, and then all of a sudden you had like an overrun of of the other animals that were like literally changing the the health of the environment, and then they they added the wolves back in, and it literally changed the ecosystem and created this e this equilibrium, if you will.
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And that's not unlike how economic ecosystems work, is that you know you have like the larger employers, and sometimes in in economic development is we tend to chase after these like big sort of we call call it smokes smoke stack chasing, when really the existing employers are are part of sort of like the health of where the ecosystem is today, and making sure that we're nurturing the the workforce and and providing the capital and and the other inputs that those existing ecosystem partners need to thrive at all levels, right?
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Small retail all the way up.
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Yeah, so it that's a great, a great illustration.
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So like talking about the word nurture, because you don't you don't often think about nurture in the context of economic economic growth in that.
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So how how important would be like the sharing the data and maybe trust and and the governance, you know, to sort of make the ecosystem actually function, like right down to kind of the nitty-gritty of how that actually looks.
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Yeah, I get asked this question a lot because obviously I work in a regional alliance model in economic development here in BC.
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And sometimes people ask the question is like, hey, why do we even need this thing to exist?
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Like, why do this work and this mandate and run these programs and stuff?
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And I try to turn that back on in on the opposite way, which is to think of what happens if we just decided not to nurture the economy at all.
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And the economy is this, is this uh force, this invisible force, it just sort of happens.
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There's human behavior, there's commerce, there's people spending money and buying things, and and that just stuff just all happens anyways.
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And so the question is why nurture it?
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And and I asked the or I talked to our stakeholders about this, is that if if you think about an economy and how it functions today, is you want to look at sort of a future vision state for like what would an ideal economy look like and things that you could think about, like an inclusive economy and and wealth distribution and good paying jobs and and you know, good career entry points and then pipelines that give people uh career advancement opportunities and all those things.
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And those things don't necessarily happen by by with without proper support and nurturing, right?
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And so that's where we enter in this sort of idea of economic uh development and and the idea of like an intervention is you're saying, like, think of the economy as this giant, you know, this giant ship that just is steaming ahead, right?
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And an economic development agenda is like, okay, we're just like slowly steering that ship toward the vision and the values and the and the types of things that we want to see more of in the economy based on our own strengths, our own assets, our own, our own value system in wherever wherever we are are living at.
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It could be a small village or a municipal place, it could be a large metropolitan region.
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Doesn't really matter as long as the the you know you're trying to steer the the economy in that direction that that you want to go.
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And to do that, you know, requires policies that that that align to those values.
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It it requires programming, it requires the other partners like the capital and all the ecosystem partners that we mentioned, and trying to get all of those partners to align around what's this common vision, because then you're all part of steering that ship, right?
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It's not just one captain that makes all the shots.
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You're all saying, like, hey, if we do this collaboratively, we can actually steer that ship in a in a in a way that's more effective and efficient over time.
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That that's a great segue into the next really challenging question.
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You know, the South Island Prosperity Partnership, you guys have been in the works for over a decade.
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So lots of experience there.
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And so, how do you get multiple municipalities aligned when they each have their own agendas and maybe their own strategies?
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How how do you actually get those to come together?
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Yeah, it's it's not an easy endeavor, that's for sure.
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I wish there was an easy answer where you could just like, hey, if you do this, this, and this, everyone will collaborate.
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Never works that way.
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But I guess the starting point for me is to think of, you know, what's the proper organizing unit in and of itself for an economy?
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And I think that's the the place where where we started here in this in the South Island.
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So we're so we're the region of Greater Victoria, which a lot of people who aren't from here, they think of like, oh, it's Victoria, Victoria's Victoria.
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But it's actually a region of 22 local governments.
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So we have 13 municipalities and we have uh nine First Nations within a metropolitan area of about 400,000 people.
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And the reason that that's important is that if you look at Stats Canada definition of a metropolitan area or a CMA in Canada, what they're looking at is it's actually the commuter shed.
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So they're looking at like the spatial relationship between where people live and where they derive their income.
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And it just happens that the Greater Victoria metropolitan area is a place where people live in one municipality and they might commute and and and work in in another municipality.
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And so I remember actually years ago when I was working in in Saskatchewan, we did some work with this uh academic named Dr.
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Mark Partridge, who was at U of S back then, but I think now he's at the University of uh of uh Ohio, I think.
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Um anyway, he had this criteria where he said, like, you can actually look at your regional economy through this criteria.
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And there's four criteria.
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And one of them is what I just mentioned, it's the commuter shed.
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It's that geog geographical relationship between where you live and where you drive your income.
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And then you said there's this other one where it's it's based on human behavior.
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So that's sort of where do you buy your groceries, where do you buy a pair of shoes, where do you go out for dinner on date night?
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Where do you take your kids to daycare?
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Where do you go ride your bike or kayaking or whatever?
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So that's human behavior type stuff.
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And that's there's a geography around that.
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And the third one is around sort of the trade pattern.
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It's sort of like where do businesses, where's that B2B relationship happen?
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Where's the supplier for the manufacturing facility or whatnot, right?
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And then the fourth one is is what he described as like this natural geography that keeps this, that sort of creates this container for this stuff to happen in.
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And I happen to live on an island, and so there's a natural connection where people sort of like you hit the water and you're like, okay, well, I can't buy my groceries in in Port Angeles across the border.
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I'm gonna turn around, right?
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Like there's just like this natural, sometimes it's rivers, sometimes it's mountains, sometimes it's an international border.
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Like I grew up in southwest Saskatchewan where, you know, there's the Montana border right there, right?
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And so if you apply those four criteria, that's sort of the starting point when we what we did is we said, like, hey, you might be this one municipality in this little part of our metropolitan area, but the way that the economy works is in this broader way where people, it's all much more fluid, right?
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And that was the starting point we had is like, hey, when you want to talk about economic interventions and you want to drive the economy, like create the wealth that comes into a region, you need to think of that in a broader way.
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And then, yeah, there's still the main street economy, there's still the commercial tax base, there's all the stuff that the municipality has their own control of in their own jurisdiction.
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And that stuff's just as important as well, because ideally, you want to try to align the values of that together.
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And so we have sort of invited them all into that process and and had them lead a lot.
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So that, for example, our constitution through the through the Self Island Prosperity Partnership was designed by municipal leaders.
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So they wrote the bullet points in there.
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There's eight bullet points, and it took multiple meetings and many hours to do, and and a facilitator, right?
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Because you people are like, oh, I don't like this word here.
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And and and that was sort of like a way for us to say, like, hey, we want this thing to reflect your values.
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Like you ran for office to make your community better.
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Here's how, here's how and why we're, we're, we're doing that.
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And then the other thing we did as a next step to that is we looked at all their official community plans.
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So all the existing strategies that they had already existing, they're whether they're formal or you know, like a position paper or an economic development roadmap, whatever they were.
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And then we we gathered all that stuff together and created an alignment document.
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And then we went back to them and said, like, hey, here's all the stuff that you guys already all agree on, right?
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We all the common denominators.
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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Shared assets, right?
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Is a is a great way to collaborate.
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So in our region, for example, we have we're the home of Canada's Pacific Navy.
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That that Navy base is in the township of a spymalty.
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So it's in one municipality, but that Navy base is huge.
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They employ 7,000 people around the region.
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And so that's a shared asset.
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We can go to all the other municipalities and say, hey, I know it's in a spymalt.
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So they're they're the ones sort of nurturing the the pavement and the potholes around it or whatever.
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But it's a shared asset that we can all agree that is part of our our regional economy.
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And there's many other examples in in all over Saskatchewan, example, for example.
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Well, that's great because having you having you, you know, been a person who's lived in Saskatchewan and now you're away.
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And I know I know what this is like too, having lived in British Columbia for 15 years and then coming back and looking at my province and seeing all the different things that are going on and and that.
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But from from your experience, when you're looking at Saskatchewan, you know, do you think we have functioning ecosystems or are we still operating like totally more independently?
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Yeah, I mean, one thing that's very apparent in Saskatchewan is there are a lot of municipalities.
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So like the RMs and the and the urb and the urban municipalities.
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BC, I think, has 170 in total with relatively the same land mass, right?
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And so the it is a different type of environment where you where you are looking at, you know, what you might call a fractured governance type of situation.
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However, that's not to say that those municipalities can't come together around different different, let's call it like levels of regional governance around these types of ecosystems, right?
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And the the way that I would think about it is like each one of those municipalities has their own purview of whether it's an urban municipality that has a, you know, like a town and a and a built environment and a commercial land base and a main street and and you know a tax base around that.
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But the where the the the sort of the wealth drivers are coming from are usually probably happening at a at a at a larger scale, right?
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Like a resource industry or a you know, a value-added, you know, processing facility or something that's down the road that may is is most likely not in their municipality.
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And so I think of it like that is like if you think about an ecosystem, it's sort of the scale of it changes depending on the type of sector that you're talking about.
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And I'll use an example just from our backyard is I I remember talking to a CEO of a an air an aerospace company.
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Actually, so we build the the De Havlon twin otter here in in the Victoria area.
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And the CEO of that company at the time said, like, because we were talking about, hey, is there like an opportunity to do like an aerospace cluster in in Victoria where you know we have like a flight school and we have this manufacturing facility and they have some suppliers.
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And what he said to me actually, I think about this a lot, is he said, he said, our scale of our company is is so much, is so large that our our geographic, or like our geography where we get our supplies is like maybe Western Canada at the smallest level.
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Like he's like, we get our flight, some of our flight components from Florida.
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You know, it's a it's a global distributed value chain model in the in the aerospace industry.
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And so he's like, there's not really a cluster here.
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Like you can do workforce development and you can do some of the more, some of the more, you know, checks in a box within the aerospace industry, but the scale of it is much like you need to collaborate all across Canada to make the aerospace industry function.
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And then, you know, on the flip side of that is you have some of the industries that are that are much more niche and small, right?
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Like a like a bunch of berry producers that are collaborating around, you know, like a you know, creating a supply agreement with a with like a larger, like a federated co-op in Saskatchewan, I guess would be a good example, where you know it takes multiple producers to like create a supply agreement.
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And so the the scale sort of goes up and down depending on the on the type of sector.
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And I think in Saskatchewan is that you know, every every region in Saskatchewan has their own set of of assets and strengths and and to organize around those and build an ecosystem around those is to me is totally possible.
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It just means thinking creatively too about some of where some of the inputs may come from like Regina or Saskatoon.
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And so they those partners are are need to be invited into your ecosystem rather than just looking at what you have in your backyard.
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Would the would you say like some of the gaps that we have then is just not sharing that information or the lack of data kind of across across those industries to have a greater kind of feel for our our our own identity, maybe?
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Yeah, I think I think so.
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I think there's like one of the things I've been thinking about lately to as well is like what are the what are the collaborative governance models themselves that that lend that that sort of like allow you to be creative and flexible with these things.
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So rather than thinking about like, oh, well, I want to build a, I know, like this happened in my hometown in Shonovan.
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They wanted to build an ethanol plant, for example.
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Well, yeah, an ethanol plant is a big scaled facility, right?
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You need economies of scale to make something like that come to come to a fruition.
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And therefore, you need to have a broader set of partners rather than just say one municipality or a couple of municipalities to think much broader.
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And and to do that, you need a governance model that aligns, that allows you to do that, right?
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So you hit so shared costs, but also shared tax revenue, right?
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So the facility itself might be in municipality A and the municipality, you know, B, C, D, and E have an agreement to to service that facility, that then they also get the tax revenue shared back with them down the line.
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So that's so that's just you know, it's it's creative governance models, I think, is a is a way.
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And that with that comes the the the shared strategy, the assets analysis, you know, looking at your your asset base and and sharing information and and sort of what's the vehicle for those partners that that may have never collaborated before to actually come together and explore those opportunities.
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And that's I think what what groups like CEDA uh you know offer, right?
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It's like a venue to come, you know, that there's no no political bias, there's no sector specific bias.
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You're just coming and saying, like, hey, come and have the conversation and then take it from there.
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Yeah, and and that's exactly it.
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And and you know, uh we do have strong collaboration absolutely in our province, but it's it's I think kind of one of the questions that we definitely want to answer through this is is like what's the one thing that's missing that that would help us bring those together?
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It's sort of you all almost need like the one kind of catalyst to sort of spark things and get them forward.
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What in your experience, like what what do you think that could be?
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Yeah, that's a it's such a good question because it's it it varies, I think, depending on location and and context and all that kind of stuff, right?
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And I don't want to I don't want to be in this chair of like, hey, I grew up in Saskatchewan, I haven't lived there for for about 16 years.
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And so the context, I'm missing a lot of the context.
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But I'd say one of the things that I hear when I when I'm working in in community, the community neighborhood levels, community levels, is they often jump right to capital.
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And they'll say, oh yeah, you know, we can't, we'd love to do, you know, this and this and this, but we don't have the capital to do it.
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And to me, it's it's uh it's a it's it's very common to do that.
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But I think the the the response that I often have is is is always take a an asset-based lens on this from the starting point rather than looking at like, oh, well, we wanted to do, you know, this big project, but you know, the capital isn't there.
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Is I always think like, okay, well, what do you have then?
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Right.
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Like start with the assets that you do have, and there's lots of them already.
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And and I I know this from growing up in the prairie region, is that they're the most in industrious human ingenuity people on earth because they create stuff out of nothing.
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Literally, the entire province of Saskatchewan was like just just a bare grassland, right?
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And so these communities literally created everything you could see, including the trees where I'm from, but everything came from from nothing, and including the cooperative movement in and of itself, where they said, hey, we need, we don't have a a bank in our in our small town, so let's just create it ourselves, right?
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And that's where the the co-op and the credit unions came from, right?
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And so I think that's that's the approach that we need to sort of get back to is that what's the missing thing, the missing ingredient, I think, is is the the venue just to come together and have the have some of these conversations.
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And then I think the the thing I mentioned earlier, it's just sort of like there's a whole new world emerging around like community wealth building models and like organizing models and capital stacks and like community investment co-ops, and like there's all these vehicles that are emerging that allow the the whatever the ideas to happen.
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And rather so rather than jumping to the to the the capital, like like happens time and time again, is like have the up have the the conversation of the assets and and the shared vision first, and then look at like, hey, now we have all these different options that we can use to actually raise the capital.
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Maybe the capital doesn't exist for it, but now we have all these emerging community wealth building models and investment co-ops, and there's just all these different creative ways of of getting the capital around the the good idea once it's formed.
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Looking at at that more in an ecosystem, right?
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I think is is is maybe what we're lacking.
00:19:51.440 --> 00:20:11.440
Because I think a lot of our municipalities and towns and villages kind of understand their identity, and like you said, they maybe they want a grandiose capital project, but then they don't really they haven't really talked down to the people or they haven't they haven't kind of looked in a in you know in a morph.
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:30.400
Sorry is bound to happen.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:51.359
They were sleeping so sadly, and then of course somebody walked down the side of the thank goodness for editing abilities in more like I mean globalism and regional obviously is something that British Columbia is very familiar with.
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:01.839
Yeah, is your mic covered or something?
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:02.480
Sorry.
00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:04.319
Can you hear me now?
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:04.960
Yeah, I can.
00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:06.319
Yeah, sorry it was muffling.
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:10.880
There we go.
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:11.359
Okay.
00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:33.839
So I guess the the idea of uh you know each individual municipality or town or village might have their own strategy and have a greater understanding of themselves and their own identity, but getting them to operate into an ecosystem of like what you said, of where they're actually going down the road and saying, here's what we have, what do you have?
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:39.839
How do you get that conversation going?
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:41.759
Yeah, and that's I think so.
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:47.599
Something I said earlier where it's like the what's the right scale of that aligns to the opportunity that we're talking about?
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:56.480
Like, you know, there's the main street economy that that's sort of like very insular to the municipality, and they can invest in their own placemaking and beautification and place marketing and things like that.
00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:59.759
But it's uh when you get to that next level where you're like, oh, we want to, you know.
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:08.160
expand our our value added production facilities or something like that where where you want to start building that ecosystem at at a broader level.
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:21.759
I think one one thing that I noticed too when I because I grew up in I grew up on a farm in a in a small town in Saskatchewan and there was always this mentality of like, you know, they would refer to Regina as this like distant place where like the they're sort of like the adversary.
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:31.359
Like the government is like against us somehow and we're and we need to like do it ourselves to to to sort of survive despite the the policymakers and stuff.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:41.839
And I think the you know what I've noticed is that we need to we need to flip that around a little bit and think about like okay government may not give you everything you want but they are a partner.
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:49.039
They are part of the ecosystem and you want to have advocacy for policies that that allow your your your vision to happen.
00:22:49.039 --> 00:23:02.559
You want them to come to the table as you know funders or investors or even on the infrastructure side, the enabling infrastructure you want their programs around whether it's you know funding agriculture initiatives or studies or feasibility stuff.
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:29.680
And so to see them as part of the ecosystem even though yeah like I grew up four hours driving time away from Regina, rather than seeing them as adversaries, see them as part of the of the solution and then scale that like that's the provincial level and then scale that back to the the the regional level is that a lot of the a lot of the small towns don't have the economies of scale to like I said at the with the example of the the ethanol plan is there's no the the you know they don't have the the economies of scale to make stuff like that happen.
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:39.680
And so you need to broaden that ecosystem and invite the capital partners from from an hour away that that could could play those those roles and the capital investors as well, right?
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:49.279
Like the capital capital is very especially in the last three or four decades, capital is very fluid in terms of it'll flow toward ideas no matter where they are on earth.
00:23:49.279 --> 00:24:01.759
But you're seeing a bit of a a counter to that now where you're seeing people more like oh we want to localize our capital and have more control over our our assets and and invest you know closer to home and all that kind of stuff.
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:04.480
But that's the that's where the creative capital stacks come in, right?
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:12.880
Is you can have a local investment model and then invite the the other capital as the as like the last 20% or something right that enables the project.
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:16.559
It gets you over that tipping point and enables the project to happen.
00:24:16.559 --> 00:25:12.799
But yeah in terms of like what's the first step on this is I think it's it's sort of just the that awareness of of um that gets the the creative juices flowing between and among municipal partners and and other partners, you know, chambers of commerce and and economic development leaders and stuff that that that exist across broader geographies and and and and you know giving them the venue places like the CETA events and stuff like that where they have this venue to come and just sort of like hey let's brainstorm ideas and and bring your asset map and your and your uh your SWOT analysis to those tables and say like hey here's where's all the shared assets that we have that we can actually start to assemble and of course like as you mentioned before uh crystal like the the gaps as well right like hey we have this this and this but we're missing this this fourth ingredient and then your neighboring jurisdiction or municipality down the road may have that missing ingredient that that could form that more ecosystem that more cohesive ecosystem.
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:34.640
Really shifting shifting from the competition idea that we're competing against you know our towns or villages even against our own government working towards the collaboration and utilizing the resources that we have that government offers because you know they are economic development drivers as well.
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:48.799
They want the whole province to succeed and and then as you said like sharing the data sharing your identity your strat plans with your area that's kind of moves us out of the competition and into the collaboration.
00:25:49.759 --> 00:26:09.359
Absolutely yeah I've I've had the pleasure in my career to do several well on several occasions to work in in China and the reason I bring that up is China is doing things at such a massive scale that it's it's even impossible to describe until you see the type of scale that we're talking about.
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:48.079
And when I when I reflect on like my upbringing in Saskatchewan is that like our the the entire province of Saskatchewan is only you know a million plus people right like the the scale of of our competitors are worldwide right so so when we think we need to think a bit bigger and and to do that requires yeah like you can compete in in some areas like like yeah I I grew up playing hockey right yeah your competitors on some th some uh realms right but uh but when it comes to the economic prosperity of the province like we're competing against the world and you know same in BC we always say that as well as like our competitor is not Nanaimo like 100 kilometers up the up the island.
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:52.799
It's a global world that and everyone's everyone's trying to attract talent.
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:53.920
They're trying to attract capital.
00:26:53.920 --> 00:27:00.960
We're trying to attract doctors right now in in uh on the island I think we're the oldest municipality in or or metropolitan area in Canada.
00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:04.240
So we need lots more health care of being Victoria.
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:15.200
Yeah yeah so so like that's the that's the type of stuff we're competing for and so therefore let's collaborate around attracting those things to our to our region.
00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:44.640
Yeah they might not land in the in my neighborhood but it'll it'll land somewhere and and you know sort of we're all in in that together and that's how I think Saskatchewan and and they've demonstrated that so many many times in the past right like just the the the cooperation models and the and the the you know the credit union model and the barn raising and the you know like I remember when I was a kid our neighbor there they had a house fire and like seriously within three or four days like all the community came together and all the kids had like new toys and new clothes and stuff because their stuff was all damaged.
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:59.279
And that's just that's the that's the it's already in our spirit right in in as prairies in the prairies and so let's just expand that a little a little bit bigger and and when it comes to economic development and and collaborate around ecosystems.
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:26.559
Absolutely intentionally instead of oh I don't want to say by accident but you know I think anytime you put a stretch a strategic plan together with intention you're more likely to get further faster than you are to just sort of fall into opportunity in that yeah yeah and it it has to be deliberate because the the collaboration is is like to do this at a at the at these types of scales is very hard, right?
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:34.480
Because it's easier to default into our our day to day and just go to go to council meeting, go to you know get the task list done this month, that kind of stuff.
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:37.759
And so this bigger picture stuff is is much more difficult.
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:53.519
But that's why I always tell people like start start off with the assets and like because you get into these rooms where like I had recently where we were planning an agriculture economic development plan and it was probably like 70% of the meeting was talking about the the negative stuff like oh we can't do this.
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:58.799
We're missing this you know to do this and this requires so much investment that you know we can't do that.
00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:05.839
And and it was just at the end we're like okay let's let's just turn our our let's turn that switch off for a moment and and like let's assemble the assets.
00:29:05.839 --> 00:29:29.920
Like we have tons of assets in this space and then once we get all that organized we can we can then say okay well here's some gaps that we need to fill because we've already built this this beautiful strength based asset list that we're building from and then you start to see like hey we have way more partners that need to be in the room than we even thought because we didn't do this brainstorm of all the of all the strengths that we were before we had started.
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:50.720
Yeah that's that's that's exactly it kind of nurturing that it's almost a creative aspect of how it and as soon as you if you start asking anybody about the community and we talk about assets everybody wants to brag about all the good things they have too and that just spurs on more ideas about what could actually happen in their community as well.
00:29:50.720 --> 00:30:03.279
Yeah really good so I just want to ask three quick little rapid fire kind of questions really quick short answers and that as we kind of move into the closing part.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:50.960
So you've got so much expertise in these areas of Dallas when we talk about Saskatchewan you know what do you think there's one thing that we do really well yeah when I think of Saskatchewan I think of human ingenuity honestly like my growing up on a farm watching my grandpa could fix anything build anything just the industrious sort of nature of the province I think that's a that lends itself to a natural entrepreneurial spirit that people just just make stuff happen and and I think if the more we can fuel and and nurture and and just show people like find mentors find find that that supportive pathways for these for these entrepreneurs then and and then get them to think think bigger those are the people that are going to build the future of of the province.
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:56.960
Yeah and and what do you think there might be is there one thing kind of holding us back right now?
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:16.480
Yeah my my my intuition again with limited context because I haven't lived there in a long time but I I think the when it comes to the the ingenuity and and the the passion of the people and stuff like that is like we need to think at big scales.
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:26.319
I think that's one of the keys is to think at a bigger scale without getting into that that headspace of like oh I can't think of that scale because all these things are missing, right?
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:31.519
Capital's missing Martiners are missing, can't do that right and so that's the that's the magic sauce, right?
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:39.839
Is like how do we think bigger and scale up without being locked out of our own based on our own mindset of like what all the gaps and what's missing.
00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:59.519
And I think that's the the the the biggest opportunity for Saskatchewan add more like think value add we used to have this saying growing up in Saskatchewan that for every I think can't remember I think it was Paul Martin that that that that coined this phrase but for every rail car full of grain just put a young person on the top and ship them out of the province with it.
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:03.599
And it was sort of this idea of like why aren't we adding value to things as much, right?
00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:14.480
And we have the same problem in BC too but just think about value add and scale like what's the right scale to add value across all these different sectors and industries that we have and assets that we have.
00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:53.920
Yeah and last last little quick question in if Saskatchewan was to have like one big bold move over the next 12 months in your expertise what do you think that would be that would really start us on that pathway yeah it's interesting it's interesting right now watching the the the the landscape play out in the world right now with with the geopolitics right the the the the the stuff with the the tariffs and like the changing the new world order as the as the prime minister has coined and watching that play out on like thinking about like Canada as a resource economy.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:33:04.079
And I think that's a flawed actually mindset to have is that in order to develop an economy you have to only think about resources and big projects and big major things.
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:17.440
I think that's actually a little bit of a of a flawed model because what it does is it puts us in this sort of this sort of like nanny state position where you're like, oh I have to go like beg Prime Minister Kearney for money to invest in my province and in my project and my infrastructure.
00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:49.519
And I think the opposite is actually what's going to change what's going to give us and that's like looking at local sovereignty local control local scale local investment keeping more wealth in our in our regions in our communities in our province and to do that we need to do it we need to like take ownership ourselves and that's where I think in to to to go full circle in this conversation that's where we need an ecosystem approach is like we need to bring our our own leaders our own entrepreneurs our own investment models together in our own regions and build that for ourselves.
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:56.960
And yeah there's if there's investment from the federal and the provincial government that like accelerates that and but the but it's on our terms right in that case, right?
00:33:56.960 --> 00:34:32.239
Rather than sort of begging and hoping Ottawa sees our our big opportunity to invest and but I think that's a much more empowering position to be it's also a much more narrative position when you talk about like getting young people to stay in the province is like rather than saying like oh I hope Ottawa invests in our in our province so we can do A B and C, it's more like no, I hope that we can build our our own future I think that's the biggest opportunity is like once you start to see those creative capital stacks and local wealth produ production, we start to think much more entrepreneurial and then much more more ambitiously around the right scales to to actualize that.
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:52.960
Exactly exactly instead of instead of waiting for somebody to write to a check we create our own path our own future and and and all the opportunities that come with that that are are part of our own identity what we offer specifically here that makes Saskatchewan so unique which would be different than what you have in Victoria area, right?
00:34:52.960 --> 00:35:10.559
Obviously yeah absolutely well that that's been great conversation that we've had Dallas we've covered lots of uh of things and I I really thank you for sharing your experiences and your expertise on this and yeah really really appreciate the time that you spent with me today.
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:17.519
Yeah it's my pleasure and I I love Saskatchewan and have so much affection for for the people and the and the values there.
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:19.280
So I'm happy to happy to be involved.
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:20.079
Thank you for the invitation.
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:21.760
Thanks so much Dallas.
00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:22.719
All right
00:00:03.759 --> 00:00:04.639
Welcome, Dallas.
00:00:04.639 --> 00:00:09.599
I am so excited to be able to have a great conversation with you here today.
00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:14.960
Let's just start off with just sort of the real simple explanation for our listeners.
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When we talk about an economic ecosystem, like in ordinary plain language, what what does that actually mean?
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Yeah, it's a great question.
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And again, so first of all, just thanks for thanks for having me, inviting me on and and to Verona and Cita and and I'm from Saskatchewan, so it's a pleasure to to uh speak to speak to you today.
00:00:33.920 --> 00:01:07.840
Yeah, so I guess an economic ecosystem, to me, I guess the simplest way to think about it is the difference between a region, regional economy, which is more about like behavior and commuter sheds and stuff like that, and an ecosystem, which is if you if you use the literal definition of ecosystem from nature, where you have, you know, uh think about like a forest with like big trees and small shrubs and like and like fungi and and a stream and a water source and like all these different types of of things that sort of create this symbiosis together and feed off each other to make eat all each other uh thrive, right?
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And so an economic ecosystem is is is just that.
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It's a the idea that you have, say, like a large employer or a major driving industry sector, and then you have like a main street and a and a and retail and and sort of the secondary, tertiary type of uh industries, and and sort of both of those things are needed to actually create an ecosystem.
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And then to add to that is is you you think about all of the different partners and roles that can be played in nurturing that ecosystem.
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And those partners and organizations are all part of that ecosystem.
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So things like banks and financial institutions or or private capital investment or you know, like economic development organizations or municipal governments or or all levels of government, right?
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You can have First Nations governments involved and you can have provincial ministries or or programming involved, and then you could have, you know, specialized banks like like FCC or Business Development Bank or EDC, et cetera.
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And all of those partners all to come together to create this this ecosystem play, if you will, of symbiosis.
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It's like it's kind of like the like the ingredients and and but kind of the more important thing than just having the right plot players, it's about how connecting them and and aligning them.
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So yeah, go ahead.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So if so, like the another way to think of it too is if if an ecosystem, if you just like in nature, if you take out one of the ingredients in that healthy ecosystem, then the whole ecosystem starts to to collapse, right?
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And there's that famous fable about the Yellowstone Park where they where they went in and killed all the wolves, and then all of a sudden you had like an overrun of of the other animals that were like literally changing the the health of the environment, and then they they added the wolves back in, and it literally changed the ecosystem and created this e this equilibrium, if you will.
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And that's not unlike how economic ecosystems work, is that you know you have like the larger employers, and sometimes in in economic development is we tend to chase after these like big sort of we call call it smokes smoke stack chasing, when really the existing employers are are part of sort of like the health of where the ecosystem is today, and making sure that we're nurturing the the workforce and and providing the capital and and the other inputs that those existing ecosystem partners need to thrive at all levels, right?
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Small retail all the way up.
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Yeah, so it that's a great, a great illustration.
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So like talking about the word nurture, because you don't you don't often think about nurture in the context of economic economic growth in that.
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So how how important would be like the sharing the data and maybe trust and and the governance, you know, to sort of make the ecosystem actually function, like right down to kind of the nitty-gritty of how that actually looks.
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Yeah, I get asked this question a lot because obviously I work in a regional alliance model in economic development here in BC.
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And sometimes people ask the question is like, hey, why do we even need this thing to exist?
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Like, why do this work and this mandate and run these programs and stuff?
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And I try to turn that back on in on the opposite way, which is to think of what happens if we just decided not to nurture the economy at all.
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And the economy is this, is this uh force, this invisible force, it just sort of happens.
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There's human behavior, there's commerce, there's people spending money and buying things, and and that just stuff just all happens anyways.
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And so the question is why nurture it?
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And and I asked the or I talked to our stakeholders about this, is that if if you think about an economy and how it functions today, is you want to look at sort of a future vision state for like what would an ideal economy look like and things that you could think about, like an inclusive economy and and wealth distribution and good paying jobs and and you know, good career entry points and then pipelines that give people uh career advancement opportunities and all those things.
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And those things don't necessarily happen by by with without proper support and nurturing, right?
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And so that's where we enter in this sort of idea of economic uh development and and the idea of like an intervention is you're saying, like, think of the economy as this giant, you know, this giant ship that just is steaming ahead, right?
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And an economic development agenda is like, okay, we're just like slowly steering that ship toward the vision and the values and the and the types of things that we want to see more of in the economy based on our own strengths, our own assets, our own, our own value system in wherever wherever we are are living at.
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It could be a small village or a municipal place, it could be a large metropolitan region.
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Doesn't really matter as long as the the you know you're trying to steer the the economy in that direction that that you want to go.
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And to do that, you know, requires policies that that that align to those values.
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It it requires programming, it requires the other partners like the capital and all the ecosystem partners that we mentioned, and trying to get all of those partners to align around what's this common vision, because then you're all part of steering that ship, right?
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It's not just one captain that makes all the shots.
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You're all saying, like, hey, if we do this collaboratively, we can actually steer that ship in a in a in a way that's more effective and efficient over time.
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That that's a great segue into the next really challenging question.
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You know, the South Island Prosperity Partnership, you guys have been in the works for over a decade.
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So lots of experience there.
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And so, how do you get multiple municipalities aligned when they each have their own agendas and maybe their own strategies?
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How how do you actually get those to come together?
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Yeah, it's it's not an easy endeavor, that's for sure.
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I wish there was an easy answer where you could just like, hey, if you do this, this, and this, everyone will collaborate.
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Never works that way.
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But I guess the starting point for me is to think of, you know, what's the proper organizing unit in and of itself for an economy?
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And I think that's the the place where where we started here in this in the South Island.
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So we're so we're the region of Greater Victoria, which a lot of people who aren't from here, they think of like, oh, it's Victoria, Victoria's Victoria.
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But it's actually a region of 22 local governments.
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So we have 13 municipalities and we have uh nine First Nations within a metropolitan area of about 400,000 people.
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And the reason that that's important is that if you look at Stats Canada definition of a metropolitan area or a CMA in Canada, what they're looking at is it's actually the commuter shed.
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So they're looking at like the spatial relationship between where people live and where they derive their income.
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And it just happens that the Greater Victoria metropolitan area is a place where people live in one municipality and they might commute and and and work in in another municipality.
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And so I remember actually years ago when I was working in in Saskatchewan, we did some work with this uh academic named Dr.
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Mark Partridge, who was at U of S back then, but I think now he's at the University of uh of uh Ohio, I think.
00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:53.759
Um anyway, he had this criteria where he said, like, you can actually look at your regional economy through this criteria.
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And there's four criteria.
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And one of them is what I just mentioned, it's the commuter shed.
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It's that geog geographical relationship between where you live and where you drive your income.
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And then you said there's this other one where it's it's based on human behavior.
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So that's sort of where do you buy your groceries, where do you buy a pair of shoes, where do you go out for dinner on date night?
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Where do you take your kids to daycare?
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Where do you go ride your bike or kayaking or whatever?
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So that's human behavior type stuff.
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And that's there's a geography around that.
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And the third one is around sort of the trade pattern.
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It's sort of like where do businesses, where's that B2B relationship happen?
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Where's the supplier for the manufacturing facility or whatnot, right?
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And then the fourth one is is what he described as like this natural geography that keeps this, that sort of creates this container for this stuff to happen in.
00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:47.200
And I happen to live on an island, and so there's a natural connection where people sort of like you hit the water and you're like, okay, well, I can't buy my groceries in in Port Angeles across the border.
00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:48.240
I'm gonna turn around, right?
00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:53.919
Like there's just like this natural, sometimes it's rivers, sometimes it's mountains, sometimes it's an international border.
00:08:53.919 --> 00:08:58.879
Like I grew up in southwest Saskatchewan where, you know, there's the Montana border right there, right?
00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:13.519
And so if you apply those four criteria, that's sort of the starting point when we what we did is we said, like, hey, you might be this one municipality in this little part of our metropolitan area, but the way that the economy works is in this broader way where people, it's all much more fluid, right?
00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:24.240
And that was the starting point we had is like, hey, when you want to talk about economic interventions and you want to drive the economy, like create the wealth that comes into a region, you need to think of that in a broader way.
00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:32.080
And then, yeah, there's still the main street economy, there's still the commercial tax base, there's all the stuff that the municipality has their own control of in their own jurisdiction.
00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:37.840
And that stuff's just as important as well, because ideally, you want to try to align the values of that together.
00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:41.919
And so we have sort of invited them all into that process and and had them lead a lot.
00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:49.039
So that, for example, our constitution through the through the Self Island Prosperity Partnership was designed by municipal leaders.
00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:50.639
So they wrote the bullet points in there.
00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:56.000
There's eight bullet points, and it took multiple meetings and many hours to do, and and a facilitator, right?
00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:57.919
Because you people are like, oh, I don't like this word here.
00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:02.879
And and and that was sort of like a way for us to say, like, hey, we want this thing to reflect your values.
00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:05.519
Like you ran for office to make your community better.
00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:08.960
Here's how, here's how and why we're, we're, we're doing that.
00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:13.120
And then the other thing we did as a next step to that is we looked at all their official community plans.
00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:22.559
So all the existing strategies that they had already existing, they're whether they're formal or you know, like a position paper or an economic development roadmap, whatever they were.
00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:26.000
And then we we gathered all that stuff together and created an alignment document.
00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:31.200
And then we went back to them and said, like, hey, here's all the stuff that you guys already all agree on, right?
00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:33.039
We all the common denominators.
00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:34.240
Exactly.
00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:34.960
Yeah.
00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:36.559
Shared assets, right?
00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:38.080
Is a is a great way to collaborate.
00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:42.559
So in our region, for example, we have we're the home of Canada's Pacific Navy.
00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:46.159
That that Navy base is in the township of a spymalty.
00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:49.039
So it's in one municipality, but that Navy base is huge.
00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:51.360
They employ 7,000 people around the region.
00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:52.799
And so that's a shared asset.
00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:55.840
We can go to all the other municipalities and say, hey, I know it's in a spymalt.
00:10:55.840 --> 00:11:00.559
So they're they're the ones sort of nurturing the the pavement and the potholes around it or whatever.
00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:04.639
But it's a shared asset that we can all agree that is part of our our regional economy.
00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:09.360
And there's many other examples in in all over Saskatchewan, example, for example.
00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:18.320
Well, that's great because having you having you, you know, been a person who's lived in Saskatchewan and now you're away.
00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:27.600
And I know I know what this is like too, having lived in British Columbia for 15 years and then coming back and looking at my province and seeing all the different things that are going on and and that.
00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:39.840
But from from your experience, when you're looking at Saskatchewan, you know, do you think we have functioning ecosystems or are we still operating like totally more independently?
00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:45.759
Yeah, I mean, one thing that's very apparent in Saskatchewan is there are a lot of municipalities.
00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:49.039
So like the RMs and the and the urb and the urban municipalities.
00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:54.320
BC, I think, has 170 in total with relatively the same land mass, right?
00:11:54.320 --> 00:12:02.480
And so the it is a different type of environment where you where you are looking at, you know, what you might call a fractured governance type of situation.
00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:14.879
However, that's not to say that those municipalities can't come together around different different, let's call it like levels of regional governance around these types of ecosystems, right?
00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:30.399
And the the way that I would think about it is like each one of those municipalities has their own purview of whether it's an urban municipality that has a, you know, like a town and a and a built environment and a commercial land base and a main street and and you know a tax base around that.
00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:37.679
But the where the the the sort of the wealth drivers are coming from are usually probably happening at a at a at a larger scale, right?
00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:47.279
Like a resource industry or a you know, a value-added, you know, processing facility or something that's down the road that may is is most likely not in their municipality.
00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:56.000
And so I think of it like that is like if you think about an ecosystem, it's sort of the scale of it changes depending on the type of sector that you're talking about.
00:12:56.000 --> 00:13:02.960
And I'll use an example just from our backyard is I I remember talking to a CEO of a an air an aerospace company.
00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:07.519
Actually, so we build the the De Havlon twin otter here in in the Victoria area.
00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:19.200
And the CEO of that company at the time said, like, because we were talking about, hey, is there like an opportunity to do like an aerospace cluster in in Victoria where you know we have like a flight school and we have this manufacturing facility and they have some suppliers.
00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:33.759
And what he said to me actually, I think about this a lot, is he said, he said, our scale of our company is is so much, is so large that our our geographic, or like our geography where we get our supplies is like maybe Western Canada at the smallest level.
00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:37.519
Like he's like, we get our flight, some of our flight components from Florida.
00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:42.000
You know, it's a it's a global distributed value chain model in the in the aerospace industry.
00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:44.000
And so he's like, there's not really a cluster here.
00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:57.039
Like you can do workforce development and you can do some of the more, some of the more, you know, checks in a box within the aerospace industry, but the scale of it is much like you need to collaborate all across Canada to make the aerospace industry function.
00:13:57.039 --> 00:14:03.360
And then, you know, on the flip side of that is you have some of the industries that are that are much more niche and small, right?
00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:18.720
Like a like a bunch of berry producers that are collaborating around, you know, like a you know, creating a supply agreement with a with like a larger, like a federated co-op in Saskatchewan, I guess would be a good example, where you know it takes multiple producers to like create a supply agreement.
00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:23.759
And so the the scale sort of goes up and down depending on the on the type of sector.
00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:35.840
And I think in Saskatchewan is that you know, every every region in Saskatchewan has their own set of of assets and strengths and and to organize around those and build an ecosystem around those is to me is totally possible.
00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:42.879
It just means thinking creatively too about some of where some of the inputs may come from like Regina or Saskatoon.
00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:50.799
And so they those partners are are need to be invited into your ecosystem rather than just looking at what you have in your backyard.
00:14:51.279 --> 00:15:06.159
Would the would you say like some of the gaps that we have then is just not sharing that information or the lack of data kind of across across those industries to have a greater kind of feel for our our our own identity, maybe?
00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:07.600
Yeah, I think I think so.
00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:20.879
I think there's like one of the things I've been thinking about lately to as well is like what are the what are the collaborative governance models themselves that that lend that that sort of like allow you to be creative and flexible with these things.
00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:26.480
So rather than thinking about like, oh, well, I want to build a, I know, like this happened in my hometown in Shonovan.
00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:28.480
They wanted to build an ethanol plant, for example.
00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:31.440
Well, yeah, an ethanol plant is a big scaled facility, right?
00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:36.159
You need economies of scale to make something like that come to come to a fruition.
00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:43.600
And therefore, you need to have a broader set of partners rather than just say one municipality or a couple of municipalities to think much broader.
00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:48.159
And and to do that, you need a governance model that aligns, that allows you to do that, right?
00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:52.480
So you hit so shared costs, but also shared tax revenue, right?
00:15:52.480 --> 00:16:05.840
So the facility itself might be in municipality A and the municipality, you know, B, C, D, and E have an agreement to to service that facility, that then they also get the tax revenue shared back with them down the line.
00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:10.159
So that's so that's just you know, it's it's creative governance models, I think, is a is a way.
00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:26.399
And that with that comes the the the shared strategy, the assets analysis, you know, looking at your your asset base and and sharing information and and sort of what's the vehicle for those partners that that may have never collaborated before to actually come together and explore those opportunities.
00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:29.919
And that's I think what what groups like CEDA uh you know offer, right?
00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:36.000
It's like a venue to come, you know, that there's no no political bias, there's no sector specific bias.
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:40.639
You're just coming and saying, like, hey, come and have the conversation and then take it from there.
00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:43.759
Yeah, and and that's exactly it.
00:16:43.759 --> 00:17:00.000
And and you know, uh we do have strong collaboration absolutely in our province, but it's it's I think kind of one of the questions that we definitely want to answer through this is is like what's the one thing that's missing that that would help us bring those together?
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:05.519
It's sort of you all almost need like the one kind of catalyst to sort of spark things and get them forward.
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:08.960
What in your experience, like what what do you think that could be?
00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:17.920
Yeah, that's a it's such a good question because it's it it varies, I think, depending on location and and context and all that kind of stuff, right?
00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:24.240
And I don't want to I don't want to be in this chair of like, hey, I grew up in Saskatchewan, I haven't lived there for for about 16 years.
00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:26.880
And so the context, I'm missing a lot of the context.
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:36.400
But I'd say one of the things that I hear when I when I'm working in in community, the community neighborhood levels, community levels, is they often jump right to capital.
00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:42.799
And they'll say, oh yeah, you know, we can't, we'd love to do, you know, this and this and this, but we don't have the capital to do it.
00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:47.359
And to me, it's it's uh it's a it's it's very common to do that.
00:17:47.359 --> 00:18:02.079
But I think the the the response that I often have is is is always take a an asset-based lens on this from the starting point rather than looking at like, oh, well, we wanted to do, you know, this big project, but you know, the capital isn't there.
00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:04.640
Is I always think like, okay, well, what do you have then?
00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:04.960
Right.
00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:08.960
Like start with the assets that you do have, and there's lots of them already.
00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:19.519
And and I I know this from growing up in the prairie region, is that they're the most in industrious human ingenuity people on earth because they create stuff out of nothing.
00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:24.240
Literally, the entire province of Saskatchewan was like just just a bare grassland, right?
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:39.920
And so these communities literally created everything you could see, including the trees where I'm from, but everything came from from nothing, and including the cooperative movement in and of itself, where they said, hey, we need, we don't have a a bank in our in our small town, so let's just create it ourselves, right?
00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:43.119
And that's where the the co-op and the credit unions came from, right?
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:54.960
And so I think that's that's the approach that we need to sort of get back to is that what's the missing thing, the missing ingredient, I think, is is the the venue just to come together and have the have some of these conversations.
00:18:54.960 --> 00:19:15.119
And then I think the the thing I mentioned earlier, it's just sort of like there's a whole new world emerging around like community wealth building models and like organizing models and capital stacks and like community investment co-ops, and like there's all these vehicles that are emerging that allow the the whatever the ideas to happen.
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:31.039
And rather so rather than jumping to the to the the capital, like like happens time and time again, is like have the up have the the conversation of the assets and and the shared vision first, and then look at like, hey, now we have all these different options that we can use to actually raise the capital.
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:44.400
Maybe the capital doesn't exist for it, but now we have all these emerging community wealth building models and investment co-ops, and there's just all these different creative ways of of getting the capital around the the good idea once it's formed.
00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:48.400
Looking at at that more in an ecosystem, right?
00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:51.440
I think is is is maybe what we're lacking.
00:19:51.440 --> 00:20:11.440
Because I think a lot of our municipalities and towns and villages kind of understand their identity, and like you said, they maybe they want a grandiose capital project, but then they don't really they haven't really talked down to the people or they haven't they haven't kind of looked in a in you know in a morph.
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:30.400
Sorry is bound to happen.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:51.359
They were sleeping so sadly, and then of course somebody walked down the side of the thank goodness for editing abilities in more like I mean globalism and regional obviously is something that British Columbia is very familiar with.
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:01.839
Yeah, is your mic covered or something?
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:02.480
Sorry.
00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:04.319
Can you hear me now?
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:04.960
Yeah, I can.
00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:06.319
Yeah, sorry it was muffling.
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:10.880
There we go.
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:11.359
Okay.
00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:33.839
So I guess the the idea of uh you know each individual municipality or town or village might have their own strategy and have a greater understanding of themselves and their own identity, but getting them to operate into an ecosystem of like what you said, of where they're actually going down the road and saying, here's what we have, what do you have?
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:39.839
How do you get that conversation going?
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:41.759
Yeah, and that's I think so.
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:47.599
Something I said earlier where it's like the what's the right scale of that aligns to the opportunity that we're talking about?
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:56.480
Like, you know, there's the main street economy that that's sort of like very insular to the municipality, and they can invest in their own placemaking and beautification and place marketing and things like that.
00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:59.759
But it's uh when you get to that next level where you're like, oh, we want to, you know.
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:08.160
expand our our value added production facilities or something like that where where you want to start building that ecosystem at at a broader level.
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:21.759
I think one one thing that I noticed too when I because I grew up in I grew up on a farm in a in a small town in Saskatchewan and there was always this mentality of like, you know, they would refer to Regina as this like distant place where like the they're sort of like the adversary.
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:31.359
Like the government is like against us somehow and we're and we need to like do it ourselves to to to sort of survive despite the the policymakers and stuff.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:41.839
And I think the you know what I've noticed is that we need to we need to flip that around a little bit and think about like okay government may not give you everything you want but they are a partner.
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:49.039
They are part of the ecosystem and you want to have advocacy for policies that that allow your your your vision to happen.
00:22:49.039 --> 00:23:02.559
You want them to come to the table as you know funders or investors or even on the infrastructure side, the enabling infrastructure you want their programs around whether it's you know funding agriculture initiatives or studies or feasibility stuff.
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:29.680
And so to see them as part of the ecosystem even though yeah like I grew up four hours driving time away from Regina, rather than seeing them as adversaries, see them as part of the of the solution and then scale that like that's the provincial level and then scale that back to the the the regional level is that a lot of the a lot of the small towns don't have the economies of scale to like I said at the with the example of the the ethanol plan is there's no the the you know they don't have the the economies of scale to make stuff like that happen.
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:39.680
And so you need to broaden that ecosystem and invite the capital partners from from an hour away that that could could play those those roles and the capital investors as well, right?
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:49.279
Like the capital capital is very especially in the last three or four decades, capital is very fluid in terms of it'll flow toward ideas no matter where they are on earth.
00:23:49.279 --> 00:24:01.759
But you're seeing a bit of a a counter to that now where you're seeing people more like oh we want to localize our capital and have more control over our our assets and and invest you know closer to home and all that kind of stuff.
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:04.480
But that's the that's where the creative capital stacks come in, right?
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:12.880
Is you can have a local investment model and then invite the the other capital as the as like the last 20% or something right that enables the project.
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:16.559
It gets you over that tipping point and enables the project to happen.
00:24:16.559 --> 00:25:12.799
But yeah in terms of like what's the first step on this is I think it's it's sort of just the that awareness of of um that gets the the creative juices flowing between and among municipal partners and and other partners, you know, chambers of commerce and and economic development leaders and stuff that that that exist across broader geographies and and and and you know giving them the venue places like the CETA events and stuff like that where they have this venue to come and just sort of like hey let's brainstorm ideas and and bring your asset map and your and your uh your SWOT analysis to those tables and say like hey here's where's all the shared assets that we have that we can actually start to assemble and of course like as you mentioned before uh crystal like the the gaps as well right like hey we have this this and this but we're missing this this fourth ingredient and then your neighboring jurisdiction or municipality down the road may have that missing ingredient that that could form that more ecosystem that more cohesive ecosystem.
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:34.640
Really shifting shifting from the competition idea that we're competing against you know our towns or villages even against our own government working towards the collaboration and utilizing the resources that we have that government offers because you know they are economic development drivers as well.
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:48.799
They want the whole province to succeed and and then as you said like sharing the data sharing your identity your strat plans with your area that's kind of moves us out of the competition and into the collaboration.
00:25:49.759 --> 00:26:09.359
Absolutely yeah I've I've had the pleasure in my career to do several well on several occasions to work in in China and the reason I bring that up is China is doing things at such a massive scale that it's it's even impossible to describe until you see the type of scale that we're talking about.
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:48.079
And when I when I reflect on like my upbringing in Saskatchewan is that like our the the entire province of Saskatchewan is only you know a million plus people right like the the scale of of our competitors are worldwide right so so when we think we need to think a bit bigger and and to do that requires yeah like you can compete in in some areas like like yeah I I grew up playing hockey right yeah your competitors on some th some uh realms right but uh but when it comes to the economic prosperity of the province like we're competing against the world and you know same in BC we always say that as well as like our competitor is not Nanaimo like 100 kilometers up the up the island.
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:52.799
It's a global world that and everyone's everyone's trying to attract talent.
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:53.920
They're trying to attract capital.
00:26:53.920 --> 00:27:00.960
We're trying to attract doctors right now in in uh on the island I think we're the oldest municipality in or or metropolitan area in Canada.
00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:04.240
So we need lots more health care of being Victoria.
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:15.200
Yeah yeah so so like that's the that's the type of stuff we're competing for and so therefore let's collaborate around attracting those things to our to our region.
00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:44.640
Yeah they might not land in the in my neighborhood but it'll it'll land somewhere and and you know sort of we're all in in that together and that's how I think Saskatchewan and and they've demonstrated that so many many times in the past right like just the the the cooperation models and the and the the you know the credit union model and the barn raising and the you know like I remember when I was a kid our neighbor there they had a house fire and like seriously within three or four days like all the community came together and all the kids had like new toys and new clothes and stuff because their stuff was all damaged.
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:59.279
And that's just that's the that's the it's already in our spirit right in in as prairies in the prairies and so let's just expand that a little a little bit bigger and and when it comes to economic development and and collaborate around ecosystems.
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:26.559
Absolutely intentionally instead of oh I don't want to say by accident but you know I think anytime you put a stretch a strategic plan together with intention you're more likely to get further faster than you are to just sort of fall into opportunity in that yeah yeah and it it has to be deliberate because the the collaboration is is like to do this at a at the at these types of scales is very hard, right?
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:34.480
Because it's easier to default into our our day to day and just go to go to council meeting, go to you know get the task list done this month, that kind of stuff.
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:37.759
And so this bigger picture stuff is is much more difficult.
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:53.519
But that's why I always tell people like start start off with the assets and like because you get into these rooms where like I had recently where we were planning an agriculture economic development plan and it was probably like 70% of the meeting was talking about the the negative stuff like oh we can't do this.
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:58.799
We're missing this you know to do this and this requires so much investment that you know we can't do that.
00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:05.839
And and it was just at the end we're like okay let's let's just turn our our let's turn that switch off for a moment and and like let's assemble the assets.
00:29:05.839 --> 00:29:29.920
Like we have tons of assets in this space and then once we get all that organized we can we can then say okay well here's some gaps that we need to fill because we've already built this this beautiful strength based asset list that we're building from and then you start to see like hey we have way more partners that need to be in the room than we even thought because we didn't do this brainstorm of all the of all the strengths that we were before we had started.
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:50.720
Yeah that's that's that's exactly it kind of nurturing that it's almost a creative aspect of how it and as soon as you if you start asking anybody about the community and we talk about assets everybody wants to brag about all the good things they have too and that just spurs on more ideas about what could actually happen in their community as well.
00:29:50.720 --> 00:30:03.279
Yeah really good so I just want to ask three quick little rapid fire kind of questions really quick short answers and that as we kind of move into the closing part.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:50.960
So you've got so much expertise in these areas of Dallas when we talk about Saskatchewan you know what do you think there's one thing that we do really well yeah when I think of Saskatchewan I think of human ingenuity honestly like my growing up on a farm watching my grandpa could fix anything build anything just the industrious sort of nature of the province I think that's a that lends itself to a natural entrepreneurial spirit that people just just make stuff happen and and I think if the more we can fuel and and nurture and and just show people like find mentors find find that that supportive pathways for these for these entrepreneurs then and and then get them to think think bigger those are the people that are going to build the future of of the province.
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:56.960
Yeah and and what do you think there might be is there one thing kind of holding us back right now?
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:16.480
Yeah my my my intuition again with limited context because I haven't lived there in a long time but I I think the when it comes to the the ingenuity and and the the passion of the people and stuff like that is like we need to think at big scales.
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:26.319
I think that's one of the keys is to think at a bigger scale without getting into that that headspace of like oh I can't think of that scale because all these things are missing, right?
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:31.519
Capital's missing Martiners are missing, can't do that right and so that's the that's the magic sauce, right?
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:39.839
Is like how do we think bigger and scale up without being locked out of our own based on our own mindset of like what all the gaps and what's missing.
00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:59.519
And I think that's the the the the biggest opportunity for Saskatchewan add more like think value add we used to have this saying growing up in Saskatchewan that for every I think can't remember I think it was Paul Martin that that that that coined this phrase but for every rail car full of grain just put a young person on the top and ship them out of the province with it.
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:03.599
And it was sort of this idea of like why aren't we adding value to things as much, right?
00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:14.480
And we have the same problem in BC too but just think about value add and scale like what's the right scale to add value across all these different sectors and industries that we have and assets that we have.
00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:53.920
Yeah and last last little quick question in if Saskatchewan was to have like one big bold move over the next 12 months in your expertise what do you think that would be that would really start us on that pathway yeah it's interesting it's interesting right now watching the the the the landscape play out in the world right now with with the geopolitics right the the the the the stuff with the the tariffs and like the changing the new world order as the as the prime minister has coined and watching that play out on like thinking about like Canada as a resource economy.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:33:04.079
And I think that's a flawed actually mindset to have is that in order to develop an economy you have to only think about resources and big projects and big major things.
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:17.440
I think that's actually a little bit of a of a flawed model because what it does is it puts us in this sort of this sort of like nanny state position where you're like, oh I have to go like beg Prime Minister Kearney for money to invest in my province and in my project and my infrastructure.
00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:49.519
And I think the opposite is actually what's going to change what's going to give us and that's like looking at local sovereignty local control local scale local investment keeping more wealth in our in our regions in our communities in our province and to do that we need to do it we need to like take ownership ourselves and that's where I think in to to to go full circle in this conversation that's where we need an ecosystem approach is like we need to bring our our own leaders our own entrepreneurs our own investment models together in our own regions and build that for ourselves.
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:56.960
And yeah there's if there's investment from the federal and the provincial government that like accelerates that and but the but it's on our terms right in that case, right?
00:33:56.960 --> 00:34:32.239
Rather than sort of begging and hoping Ottawa sees our our big opportunity to invest and but I think that's a much more empowering position to be it's also a much more narrative position when you talk about like getting young people to stay in the province is like rather than saying like oh I hope Ottawa invests in our in our province so we can do A B and C, it's more like no, I hope that we can build our our own future I think that's the biggest opportunity is like once you start to see those creative capital stacks and local wealth produ production, we start to think much more entrepreneurial and then much more more ambitiously around the right scales to to actualize that.
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:52.960
Exactly exactly instead of instead of waiting for somebody to write to a check we create our own path our own future and and and all the opportunities that come with that that are are part of our own identity what we offer specifically here that makes Saskatchewan so unique which would be different than what you have in Victoria area, right?
00:34:52.960 --> 00:35:10.559
Obviously yeah absolutely well that that's been great conversation that we've had Dallas we've covered lots of uh of things and I I really thank you for sharing your experiences and your expertise on this and yeah really really appreciate the time that you spent with me today.
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:17.519
Yeah it's my pleasure and I I love Saskatchewan and have so much affection for for the people and the and the values there.
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:19.280
So I'm happy to happy to be involved.
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:20.079
Thank you for the invitation.
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:21.760
Thanks so much Dallas.
00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:22.719
All right
