Dave Scheibel: An Ultrarunner’s Wake-Up Call On Overtraining

WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to Running with Problems.
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My name is John Eisen.
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And I'm Miranda Williamson.
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Running with Problems is a podcast about runners and the problems they inevitably face.
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Today on the podcast, we have someone with problems.
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Dave Schivel.
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We're very excited to drop this episode.
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We've been looking forward to it for a while.
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We recorded it in 2025 and get to drop it now for you all today.
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It's very exciting.
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But before we get to that, Miranda, how are you doing?
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I'm doing wonderful.
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We had a great weekend on Catalina Island.
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Yes.
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Uh who won?
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I did.
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You beat me in the Avalon 50 mile race.
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Yes.
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But it was beautiful.
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Did you have a good time?
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I had a great time.
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I ran with my two girlfriends, Corianne and McKinsey.
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Um, those of you who listen to the pod regularly have heard both those names before.
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Those are my training partners.
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We spent a lot of Saturday runs running together.
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And it was magical to be able to run this race with them step for step and cross the finish line, holding hands, all three of us.
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Oh, cute.
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Yeah.
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How was your day out there?
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It was nice.
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It was beautiful.
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I enjoyed it.
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Had a good time.
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Remembered why I like ultra running.
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Good.
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Then mission successful.
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I saw you at a couple aid stations.
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You were pretty close.
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I saw you leaving aid stations as I would come in.
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So I guess I saw you a little more than you saw me.
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That's not creepy at all.
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That's hot.
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Sure.
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Yeah.
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Every step you take.
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Anyway, that's honestly creepy.
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That is a creepy song.
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If you ever listen to the lyrics, so creepy.
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I'll be watching you.
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Oh gross.
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Oh my God.
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Um I always like to talk about the problems because this is running with problems.
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Um and one section that was really tough was this long, grindy section in the middle, the race.
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You have to run through the middle of the island.
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Not the middle of the race, middle of the island, towards the end of the race.
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And it's just a slight uphill.
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And I was reminded.
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Yeah.
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And I was reminded of a really important lesson.
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Just that your mind is really powerful and a really strong tool in ultra running.
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Is your mind the slave or the master?
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What John is referring to for the listeners who do not know.
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Sorry for the problematic language.
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Yes.
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And the yoga teacher was quite strange and he kept saying, uh, pay attention.
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Pay attention to what I'm saying.
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Your mind is a better slave than it is a master.
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I couldn't disagree with him more.
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Your mind is very good to be in charge, but um, you want to make sure you have control of it and know what you're doing with it.
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So, so, anyways, on this grindy section, I was struggling and wanted to walk.
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And the girls were like, nope, keep running, keep running.
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They were moving well.
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And so I I used my mind to focus my energy on just moving forward at 1230 miles.
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Just keep going at that 1230 pace.
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Keep going.
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You have it in your body.
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You just need to remember that you're strong and you can do it.
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And guess what?
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I did it.
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Congratulations.
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Thank you.
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How was that section for you?
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Awful.
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I don't know.
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It's just a grind.
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Every, every race has a grindy section.
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This is that one.
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You know, it's miles of slight uphill on a road exposed in the heat.
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I think every race has that.
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Yeah, the Vickers, as we call it.
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Well, Vickers is like that last climb you didn't want to do, right?
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Like that's the Vickers of the race.
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Uh like, yeah, I don't know.
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I guess this is the Vickers of Avalon, that middle ranch road.
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Sure.
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Yeah.
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It is.
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It's like you're overheated, you're done.
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You just want to get to the last downhill, but there's one more climb.
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One more Vickers.
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Definitely.
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So, how about Dave?
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I cannot express to the ultrarunning community enough how valuable this podcast was to record, how important Dave's story is to add to all of the stories that we have about ultrarunning experiences.
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Overtraining is a real um a real challenge that ultrarunners in our community face.
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As ultrarunners, we are constantly pushing the limits of our bodies and our minds.
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Dave's story reminds us that as we push our perceived limits, we have to be careful for our true limits.
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The limits of the our body's ability to handle stress and recover completely is not infinite.
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Despite the fact that we live in this space where pushing that boundary is what we talk about as good.
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It's what we celebrate, is what we look in at look in at for others, right?
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Look at we look at somebody who's pushing their boundaries and we're like, wow, I want to do that.
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That's what this sport is about.
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I think that's amazing.
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And I don't want to downplay that, but I do want to talk about the other side of this coin, which is what happens when you push your body too far too long, too many years in a row.
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And what happens is devastating to those runners that experience it.
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Uh, Dave's story is important to share, and I hope y'all will uh give him the space to share it.
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We should provide a content warning.
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Yes.
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As we close the episode today, we're gonna say bye as we normally do.
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And then there's gonna be a short musical break, and then another story will continue on the podcast.
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You don't have to switch anything.
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It's just at the end of the podcast, there is another 15, 20 minute story.
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And then uh we want to provide a content warning for that story, essentially.
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Yes.
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Trigger warning for blood, injury, intense medical condition.
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Uh male sexual organs are involved.
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Yes.
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I highly recommend you listen to that story.
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Uh, however, if you are squeamish, you may just want to skip it.
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And that's totally fine.
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Most of the content that is the meat of what Dave experienced is before that.
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And uh is probably not appropriate for uh uh children uh below uh who haven't had the birds and the bees talk.
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Not a not appropriate for young ears.
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Uh so with that said, um, we're gonna get straight into this.
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Uh Dave Scheibel's story is incredible.
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I was on the edge of the seat of my seat recording it.
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Uh I hope you all enjoy, well, maybe not enjoy, but uh hear what he has to say.
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I think it's important to talk about.
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Absolutely.
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Enjoy.
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All right.
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Dave, welcome to the podcast.
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Thanks for having me.
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I'm honored to be here.
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So the idea to have you on the pod first came about when we were chatting at Dark Divide.
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Yes, yes.
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Deep in the forest on an unmarked road.
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Yes, what is that, mile 25 aid station?
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After you you had decided to pull from the race.
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Um, you weren't feeling it.
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You had just come back from Switzerland.
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Yeah, literally like the day before I'd gotten back from Switzerland.
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I was supposed to be running plane, but with that being canceled, I I jumped into Dark Divide and audit mark, but it was it was a mess, and I shouldn't have even started the race.
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But you did.
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I did, and and quickly decided it was a mistake and I should be done.
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So I mean, you really experienced probably the 25 best miles on that course.
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Yeah, one thing I regret is like it sounds like those big old growth trees were pretty spectacular.
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So I mean at 2 a.m., everything and nothing is spectacular at the same time.
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But yeah, uh, trees are pretty big down there.
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And I noticed, so I noticed at that aid station that your wife was very concerned about you.
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She was like, Have you been drinking enough?
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Have you been eating enough?
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Well, she was just very attentive to whether or not you were taking care of yourself.
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She's been she's seen me in some pretty dark places in hundreds.
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She actually uh, so we got married um a little over 10 years ago, and we had wrote our own vows, and one of her vows was that she'd crew me at one hundred-mile race per year.
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Oh, that's what we have.
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Is it really?
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Yeah.
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You get one.
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You get one.
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Yeah.
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I love that.
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Um, and that's where we started talking about this article that you participated in on over-training syndrome.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, it was rough.
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Uh, but uh, but really happy to get more information out there on something that I think is not well understood and underdiagnosed.
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And yeah.
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How many years have you been ultra running by the time this over prior to overtraining syndrome?
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Like where are you at in your ultra running and running in general?
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Yeah, so I started, I think my first 50-mile race was like 2014, and then my first hundred was 2015 at Run Rabbit.
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And then uh Yeah, and then a lot after that, and then I um started having the symptoms.
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I wasn't diagnosed for a while, but I started having the symptoms of OTS in late 2019.
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How did it first present?
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So I was uh actually lucky enough to spend the summer of 2019 in Colorado in an RV.
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And that sounds nice.
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Yeah, it was pretty great, uh, leading up to High Lonesome that year.
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And um overall training was going great.
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I there was like some weird stuff.
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Um I wasn't sleeping as well as I normally did.
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I had some fantastic workouts, but also some that just went more sideways than usual.
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Um and so like a few concerning things, but you know, I was in constant contact with my coach, and um we thought everything would go well.
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I had I like I there was a half marathon trail race I ran in Colorado and won and set a course record.
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So I was doing some of the running um of my career there, but um yeah, some something was off that summer.
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Um and High Lonesome went okay.
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I I like most of my hundreds, I I struggled a lot in the middle of it and then kind of rallied at the end.
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Um but uh went okay.
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Um but yeah, the the first symptoms were really like poor sleep, um, maybe a little bit of brain fog.
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Um yeah, really not, you know, pretty general symptoms.
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And when you were struggling in the middle of that high lonesome, were those struggles normal struggles?
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Or I think I think I'd chronically, like looking back now with all the latest research, I think I'd chronically underfueled in all my hundreds.
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Oh I mean, everyone's realizing that, right?
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Yeah, I think I've probably averaged like a hundred calories an hour or something.
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Oh yeah.
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Oh God, that's low.
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Yeah.
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The most I've ever done, and it was the only race I did well in, was like 200 calories an hour.
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Wow.
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Yeah.
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Realizing you need to feel more is sort of an awakening we all get to have.
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It's like a second rebirth in ultra running.
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It's like, oh, if I feel better, I just run better.
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It's great.
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Okay.
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Tell me about this duration of time from the time of onset symptoms to when you took a dive.
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Yeah.
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So I got back from High Lonesome, had spent the summer at altitude, got back to Seattle, and symptoms really started to hit then.
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And it was, it was not consistent.
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Like I'd have, like honestly, some of my best like easy runs where I'd be running like 530-minute miles and stuff like that.
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And I just felt like I was like, I'd probably blood doped from all the time at altitude and felt amazing.
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And then um, I'd go out for another easy run.
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And the first symptom that really hit was just like sweating an abnormal amount to the point where I just felt like I was like sweat was pouring off of me.
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I weighed myself one time before and after like an hour easy run, and I lost seven pounds of sweat.
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Oh my God.
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So just like incredible amount of sweating.
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And then it very quickly progressed from there to just feeling dizzy um on my runs.
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Um, so I knew that was not good.
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Um, so I was talking to my coach about that.
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Um, but kind of on one of the days I was feeling great, I signed up for another hundred.
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As one does.
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Yes.
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Yeah, it's not familiar.
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Yeah, I signed up for the um Flagstaff to Grand Canyon uh 100.
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And she's oh my god, that sounds a beautiful.
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Yeah.
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Uh, but I started having like I went there two weeks before the race to kind of reacclimate, and I started getting really dizzy, like crazy heart palpitations and stuff like that.
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So most of those two weeks I I did like an extreme taper and like just chilled to try to let my body feel better.
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And then during the race, I could like barely stand up.
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I was so dizzy.
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I felt like I was like falling off the side of the trail.
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Um and so I stopped at like 40 miles into the race.
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And um it's easy to attribute things that go wrong in a hundred to the hundred, right?
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Like, I mean, even dizziness, which sounds like something you shouldn't have, you could be like, well, maybe it was extra hot.
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Maybe it was like it's easy to be like off or something like that, right?
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That's a race thing.
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It's not, yeah, it's not something in me.
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Did were you were you slowly realizing there was something very wrong, or were you still in this period of just like, no, no, no, I'll push through it?
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I I think I was still thinking I pushed through it, but it did convince me I needed to see a doctor at that point.
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So I should have seen one before that, but um, getting back to Seattle after that race, I went and started all kinds of tests.
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They didn't really find much.
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They found my iron was slightly low, so you know, took some supplements and quickly corrected that.
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But I started all kinds of tests, like saw a cardiologist, a hematologist, like all these different doctors.
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Uh, did a VO2 max test, all this stuff, trying to figure it out.
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And we couldn't figure out anything.
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And this was like over months going from you know, fall uh into like November, December of 2019 at this point.
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And uh my symptoms kind of got progressively worse from there.
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Um I had a week of severe vertigo where I tried to like get out of bed and I like ran into the wall because uh felt like it was like to the side or uh like I just really extreme dizziness outside of running.
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Um I let's see what else I started.
00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:52.720
And also what, you know what in reading the article, I mean, the one there weren't a lot of like there weren't a whole lot of through lines between all the case studies, but the one thing that tripped me out was that they peep the first results of like going to the doctors was like, nothing's wrong.
00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:54.000
Nothing's wrong.
00:16:54.320 --> 00:17:01.200
So it was reminded me of dementia in that way, where they have to rule out everything else before they can get a diagnosis.
00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:05.599
Well, yeah, I mean, that's a key thing about overtraining syndrome syndrome.
00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:10.720
There's no positive test they can run to say, do you have overtraining syndrome?
00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:12.079
It's a diagnosis of exclusion.
00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:20.160
So basically, once they've ruled everything else out and they think you might have been training too much, then they can diagnose overtraining syndrome.
00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:21.039
Yeah.
00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:26.640
And between the three case studies, like the training load was different between all three humans.
00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:32.640
So that I think that's a key one with mine, is actually like overall, I wasn't training an extreme amount.
00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:39.200
I mean, I was, you know, running 100 plus mile weeks, but I'd done that historically.
00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:47.119
I think the only thing different was um maybe the intensity of my some of my easy runs.
00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:50.079
I was running too hard on, you know, all the time.
00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:54.160
Um, so the from an overall stress perspective, I think that was higher.
00:17:54.240 --> 00:18:01.680
And then I think there were some under underlying health issues that made my body unable to adapt to that kind of training load.
00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:05.440
I'd kind of at least been close to in the historically.
00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:07.839
Um, but we can get into that.
00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:16.319
Um so like even in a situation where you're training at a consistent level, you're not increasing training, yeah.
00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:21.519
Um OTS can still pop up because your body can change off from under you.
00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:29.119
Yeah, I think I think a key thing to keep in mind is that it's like really overtraining syndrome is your body's response to stress.
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:36.240
So normally we're doing training to apply a stress to our body, and then we adapt to that stress.
00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:42.880
But any number of things can happen to cause you unable to be unable to adapt to that stress, right?
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:47.519
Um, so I think I had some underlying health issues that that did that.
00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:59.680
I think like Mike Wolf, uh another participant in the study, like his was probably more purely just training load related, where he was just Yeah, he had a lot more than you training load.
00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:00.480
Yeah.
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:06.880
And then the um the female athlete in the study, she was eating hardly anything.
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:07.440
Yep.
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:14.559
Yeah, so that's kind of like they can they refer to it now as red S or relative energy deficiency in sport.
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:20.079
But um, a lot of female athletes, but it can also be male athletes, have experienced that.
00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:28.799
And that can initially be diagnosed as red S, but if you uh have that for a long time, then it can lead to overtraining syndrome.
00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:29.599
Red S.
00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:30.880
Can you explain that a little bit more?
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:34.960
I read S study, but I'm still like to support the training that you're doing.
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:35.599
Ah.
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:36.160
Okay.
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:39.279
You're not getting enough calories to adapt to it.
00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:41.519
Red why is it called red S?
00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:41.839
Do you know?
00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:44.079
Relative energy deficiency in sport.
00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:45.039
Oh.
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:47.599
Okay, thank you.
00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:50.720
Yeah.
00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:54.640
So that was actually one of my low points was like seeing all these doctors.
00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:58.160
It was right after my um vertigo.
00:19:58.319 --> 00:19:59.359
I I went and saw a doctor.
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:01.680
I'd done All kinds of tests.
00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:10.079
Um, and I remember having this conversation with uh the doctor who seemed to take a real interest in me and in making sure I could get healthy.
00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:18.240
But we had we sat down and had this conversation, and um he was just, you know, I was like, what else can we do?
00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:19.599
Are there other tests we can run?
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:21.599
And he was like, Dave, you're perfectly healthy.
00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:23.279
He's like, There's nothing else we can do.
00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:30.240
So I like kind of left that appointment feeling like I was at a dead end and like I didn't feel healthy.
00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:31.680
I knew something was wrong with me.
00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:45.359
There are all these like different issues I was having, but the doctors kind of looked at them as each individual things and wouldn't consider them all as like, you know, here I am as somebody that's like been healthy all my life.
00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:48.640
I've like only gone to the doctor for a flu or something.
00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:56.319
And now I've got like, you know, vertigo and dizziness while I'm running and the success of sweating.
00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:58.480
Um, I started migraines around that time.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:00.880
I'd never had a migraine before in my life.
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:04.559
And I started getting migraines at post-exercise.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:08.640
So um, yeah, just debilitating migraines.
00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:14.160
And I'd like go for a run, get back, and then be in bed for days with the migraine.
00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:16.319
So migraines are no joke.
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:17.680
Yeah, horrible.
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:19.119
I can't imagine.
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:22.799
Um thankfully I don't have them anymore, but it was it was horrible.
00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:24.480
Yeah, I got them as a kid.
00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:28.079
If you have like a day or two, just go down.
00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:29.599
Oh, it's bad.
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:30.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:35.680
So um, so yeah, I kind of stopped seeing the doctors there.
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:40.960
I actually had a conversation with uh Caleb, kind of telling him what was going on.
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:43.359
And he was like, hey, why don't you talk to Mike Wolf?
00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:46.319
Um, this sounds like overtraining syndrome to me.
00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:51.039
And I I'd of course brought that up to my coach and doctors, but they all kind of blew it off.
00:21:51.200 --> 00:22:02.240
My coach, his main question was um, if I still had like uh sexual desire and if I was still getting like morning erections and everything.
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:06.319
And from that perspective, I felt like everything was normal at the time.
00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:13.599
Um, later I started having issues with that, but at that point in time, everything was working normally.
00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:19.759
So um so I talked to Mike Wolf and kind of explained all my symptoms.
00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:23.039
And he's like, Yeah, this sounds like over-training syndrome to me.
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:27.200
And he gave me his doctor that diagnosed him, uh, Dr.
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:28.000
Amrine.
00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:31.359
And I I called him and we had a conversation.
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:33.920
He agreed and he put me in touch with Dr.
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:38.000
Harmon at University of Washington Medical Center.
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:40.880
Um, and I started seeing her.
00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:44.720
And this is now uh early 2020.
00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:49.039
So how long since when you can't go to hospitals?
00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:49.839
Yeah.
00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:51.279
Yeah.
00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:54.799
But how long had it been since the onset of symptoms?
00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:57.839
That's one another thing that tripped me out is the length of time.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:22:59.440
It's like a long time.
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:00.400
Totally.
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:05.119
So so symptoms kind of started, you know, the summer of 2019.
00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:11.279
So maybe a little bit before high lonesome, started progressing after high lonesome, I'd say significantly more.
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:14.240
So kind of August 2019.
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:22.799
So now we're into like January, February of uh 2020 when I'm starting to see uh Dr.
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:23.599
Harmon.
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:27.519
And she started, she had a bunch of um ideas.
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:29.839
She considered red S for me.
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:34.000
Uh, but I'd actually been, you know, continuously backing off on training.
00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:41.680
Um, every, every time I worked out at this point, like if I did a workout run, then it like set me back.
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:50.160
I'd get a migraine, I'd be in bed, and then I'd like kind of start trying to build back up, and then I'd do another another workout when I felt like I was doing okay, and it set me back again.
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:51.759
So frustrating.
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:53.039
Super, super frustrating.
00:23:54.160 --> 00:24:00.400
My coach, I had talked to my coach about maybe stopping, but he was encouraging me to keep going.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:08.160
Um, so I think it was maybe March of 2020 when I I cut out running completely and exercise completely.
00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:12.480
What a great time to cut out your main source of enjoyment.
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:15.759
I hope you took up drinking or something, Dave.
00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:18.799
I see all the whiskey bottles in the background.
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:21.279
You have you have no shortage of alcohol.
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:24.400
Well, we ruled out red S because I was gaining gaining weight.
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:25.599
Okay, all right.
00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:26.480
That's not good.
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:27.359
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:37.839
But she also considered some weird form of um POTS, which is postural, orthostatic, tachycardia syndrome, something like that.
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:40.640
And you were tested for Lyme disease too, right?
00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:41.119
Right.
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:41.920
Yes.
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:47.119
I mean, all kinds of it does have it can present similarly to OTS.
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:48.559
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:59.519
So um yeah, but we ended up like over probably the next six months, you know, redid more um uh VO2 Max.
00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:07.839
And surprisingly, I actually didn't get the results of them, but my VO2 Max actually didn't decline um during this time.
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:13.440
So even though I wasn't really training, like I guess my oxygen uptake was was the same.
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:28.799
Like I couldn't run as fast, but I was like your body's oxygen efficiency and like everything that goes into VO2 Max, that's everything from like you know, your whole respiratory system and your cardiovascular system to be able to output what you're getting in, all of that is working fine.
00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:34.079
But when you work out, cortisol levels go crazy and your body goes haywired.
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:34.799
Yeah.
00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:36.000
Interesting.
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:36.880
Yeah.
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:42.079
So um, so we were kind of hitting dead ends with Dr.
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:50.400
Harmon, and I was doing my own research by this point on the side and trying to, you know, read all these journal articles and try to figure out what might be going on.
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:54.880
And I had a hypothesis at the time that maybe it was hormone related.
00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:59.759
Um, I thought maybe aldosterone based on things I'd read was an issue.
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:01.200
And so I asked Dr.
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:09.599
Harmon if if she could do hormone testing, and she referred me to she actually recommended against it initially.
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:19.279
She was very, very supportive, to be clear, but she she thought we'd kind of go down a big dead end by by going that route, but agreed to it.
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:35.759
So she referred me to endocrinology at University of Washington, and uh they got the test results back, and they're like the endocrinologist was like, Oh yeah, you're um you have hypogonadic hypogenadism, um, basically low testosterone.
00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:42.799
Uh he's like, you need to go on testosterone replacement like now and you're gonna be on the on it the rest of your life.
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:45.279
Uh and I was like, oh, you excited though?
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:47.279
Were you like, okay, now I have some answers?
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:49.920
I mean, this is the first test that found something, right?
00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:50.960
It is, it is.
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:55.680
Um, well, he also at the same time did diagnose overtraining syndrome.
00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:03.279
He he hypothesized that you know the overtraining syndrome probably caused the low T.
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:04.400
Oh.
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:12.880
Um, but in his experience, once it's at the levels that I was, you can't come back from it.
00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:18.720
Um so I agreed to try it.
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:24.000
So I tried two months of self-injected testosterone.
00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:26.240
Um, and honestly, it made me feel horrible.
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:26.960
I hated it.
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:30.079
Um, it didn't really help.
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:32.319
There were moments where I felt better.
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:42.880
Um, but overall, I think what happened with me is I think personally I'm I don't feel good if I have really low, really high testosterone or really low testosterone.
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:49.920
And the injections basically like pump you up like way over what's natural for a couple of days, and then you drop off.
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:56.000
Uh, you might hit the normal range for a day or two, and then you're back to low by the time you get your next injection.
00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:58.160
You're just constantly in the cycle.
00:27:58.480 --> 00:27:59.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:01.200
So I was like, and my wife hated it.
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:07.119
I was like angry for no reason, and like, yeah, uh, yeah, it was not myself.
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:18.240
So I I stopped after the two months, and we had talked about, you know, other options like patches or or other things that might have less of that kind of spike and drop off.
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:32.720
But I had kind of decided that I wanted to try um not using testosterone and see if more rest um might um might bring my levels back naturally, even though he recommended against it.
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:37.839
So at this point, you've been through you know at least around a year of tests.
00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:44.640
You have found like, okay, I have something wrong, but fixing it isn't helping.
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:52.880
And you're somewhat sure that it is related to training, uh, from your conversation with Mike Wolf and his doctor.
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:53.279
Yeah.
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:56.880
And so okay, so I'm just trying to summarize for myself.
00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:05.680
So at this point in the story, you're like, all right, well, what if I just like rest and actually give myself grace to not run and do anything?
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:06.319
Yeah.
00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:08.000
So how did that go?
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:18.000
Well, I I so I'd started that kind of March of 2020, and this is now I think September of 2020 by the time I I tried the testosterone.
00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:22.000
Um, so I hadn't been running for for quite a while, anyways.
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:26.880
Um, and I was like, well, maybe just more rest and we'll see how it goes.
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:33.119
Um and honestly, that it I went really badly downhill after that.
00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:36.880
Um even further down the hill.
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:52.319
Uh so um starting in early 2021, um, like January of 2021, I my body was just really falling apart at that point.
00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:58.799
I was um like I'd bump the wall and my skin would break open and like wounds wouldn't heal.
00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:02.079
And I just felt like I couldn't think straight.
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:04.000
Like I had horrible brain fog.
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:04.799
I felt like I'd lost.
00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:10.559
That was a common experience for most people with OTS that brain fog.
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:11.599
Yeah.
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:12.000
Yeah.
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:14.720
Well, your brain takes so much energy to run.
00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:20.640
Normally, if your body's not like, I guess, getting the right nutrients to the right places.
00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:21.200
That makes sense.
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:25.680
I couldn't, like I had, and actually this this started earlier, but temperature sensitivity.
00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:31.599
Like I could, I basically I was comfortable in like 67 to 69 degrees.
00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:33.200
Anything hotter, I felt horrible.
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:34.960
Anything colder, I was freezing.
00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:39.440
I I need a like a very stabilize your own temperature as well.
00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:40.319
Yeah, totally.
00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:41.920
It's kind of like a fever.
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:42.319
Yeah.
00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:43.359
So you're living daily.
00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:45.519
Oh my god.
00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:52.640
Um and then early 2021, I had some serious complications.
00:30:52.799 --> 00:31:01.200
I had, I think in between January, February, March, I had seven emergency room visits, three emergency surgeries.
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:05.839
Um unrelated, some of them unrelated to each other.
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:07.200
Like it was a really difficult.
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:13.279
But your body's just not healing, showing signs of just like not recovering properly.
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:13.920
Yeah.
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:18.400
And so in the middle of that, I I kind of became suicidal.
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:24.160
Um, and actually, I started a bullet journal of like my mood every day.
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:28.559
And it of course it was like horrible every like seven days a week.
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:34.559
And um I decided that if I had if I wasn't better in three months, I was gonna take my life.
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:36.480
Um my gosh.
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:37.039
Yeah.
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:38.559
So it's intense.
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:44.240
Thankfully, at that same time, I started seeing a naturopathic doctor.
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:52.000
Um one of my thoughts, the reason I started that was because I thought I could get additional testing um to see what was going on.
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:55.039
And what's going on in the rest of your life at this time?
00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:57.920
Before we get into that, are you like functioning?
00:31:58.079 --> 00:31:58.880
Are you working?
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:02.559
Are you functioning as a father, as a husband?
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:03.759
Yeah, yeah.
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:08.559
Um so I have to back up a little bit.
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:15.359
When this whole thing started, I was actually on a sabbatical, um, you know, living my best life on an RV in Colorado.
00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:20.319
Um and then when I couldn't run as much, I had decided to go back to work.
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:23.839
So I actually started back to work in early 2020.
00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:34.799
And um, so I had a great job that was very supportive of me through some of these complications, especially like the emergency room visits and the surgeries.
00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:38.880
Like I ended up having to take some time away from work for those things.
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:40.720
Um, they were supportive.
00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:49.519
Um, and it was a job that I was excited about, um, although I felt like I wasn't performing my best because of my brain fog and everything.
00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:50.240
Yeah.
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:54.000
Um, but generally that was good.
00:32:54.240 --> 00:33:00.400
My wife was very supportive, although I'm sure frustrated with, you know, everything I'd been going through.
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:04.160
And, you know, I wasn't my best self for sure through all of this.
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:06.799
Um tried to be there for my kids.
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:10.799
My kids are grown, so I think that probably helped that I didn't have young kids at home.
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:11.279
Yeah.
00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:16.960
Um, but yeah, um, yeah, what definitely was not my best self through this.
00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:17.920
Yeah.
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:20.480
So then you started seeing this natural path.
00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:21.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:26.160
And so she she suggested, and at this point I was ready to try anything to feel better.
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:40.000
She she suggested I go on a daily testosterone lotion to kind of um, you know, not give high spikes to my testosterone, but basically find a middle ground that I could maintain daily.
00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:49.519
Um, and then she also did testing on my gut and found a couple issues uh that I think um were pivotal.
00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:51.279
So I had uh H.
00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:54.880
pylori infection in my gut and a candida overgrowth.
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:55.200
The H.
00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:59.599
pylori is something like a Western doctor would find and treat potentially.
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:13.199
The candida is something that um in in my talking to doctors, they don't um they don't tend to look for it or treat it because it's they don't really trust the testing methods.
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:16.239
Uh they can get false positives or false negatives.
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:19.840
So they they kind of ignore it as an issue.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:24.559
Um but I think based on what I've learned, I think it's it's a pretty significant issue.
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:28.320
So we kind of treated all three of those things at the same time.
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:37.840
Um so back then I wasn't quite sure what was making me feel better, but it was a pretty drastic improvement once I started treating all three of those.
00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:41.679
I felt much better than I did on the testosterone shots.
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:47.280
Um started feeling like myself again, brain fog started clearing.
00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:52.400
Um, I didn't have like the anger issues I did on the testosterone shots, all of that.
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:59.360
So um I actually my first run back was July of 2021.
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:03.760
I uh was a legacy runner runner at High Lonesome.
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:05.039
So I started the race.
00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:13.519
Uh it was actually after not training for like a like I had basically hadn't run in like two years.
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:14.239
Oh my god.
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:14.880
Okay.
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:16.320
Uh what was that?
00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:17.119
Tell me about that.
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:23.199
Caleb and I had talked about it ahead of time, and there wasn't a full full field starting that year.
00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:26.960
So I felt okay, like I wasn't taking someone else's place.
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:31.760
And uh the the agreement was that I'd run to the first aid station and stop there.
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:34.079
So that's what I did.
00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:35.280
I love that.
00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:35.599
Yeah.
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:37.119
That was your first run back.
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:38.719
It was, yeah.
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:40.159
And then that kind of thing.
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:42.639
That must have been, I mean, I mean, I guess.
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:44.320
What an epic run back, though.
00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:44.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:45.920
I was so excited.
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:47.360
I felt, I mean, it was hard.
00:35:47.519 --> 00:36:00.800
Of course, like my heart rate was like thresholds because I was running slow the whole time, but um, but it felt amazing to be running for the first time after so long, and I felt like I was on my way back.
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:04.000
Um but recovery was not smooth.
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:07.360
Like I didn't continue that trajectory, unfortunately.
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:09.920
I think I learned a lot through this.
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:22.880
I basically had to learn how to listen to my body and like really back off on intensity um and run easy, like really ridiculously easy most of the time.
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:33.119
Um, and that took me a probably another year to really uh get pounded into my head that every time I tried to run hard, I'd I'd kind of backslide.
00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:37.679
And then uh uh that's kind of what got me set on the path.
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:46.960
Currently, I like I do tons of vert, but part of the reason for that is that if I'm climbing up a street, steep mountain, like I can go slower and feel okay about it.
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:50.000
If I'm running on a flat road, I like I want to run fast.
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:54.000
Um, those five something minute miles.
00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:55.119
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:55.840 --> 00:36:58.079
That's why I see you on mailbox all the time.
00:36:58.320 --> 00:36:58.639
That's right.
00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:03.280
So that's my local mountain that I've just can you know done more and more over the years.
00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:05.599
And mailbox is a ridiculous peak.
00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:08.320
It's like 4,000 feet and less than two miles.
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:09.840
Two and a half miles, yes.
00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:10.880
Okay, it's two and a half.
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:12.320
All right, all right, it's two and a half miles.
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:15.119
The main part of the climb is like 2,000 feet a mile.
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:16.639
Um, so pretty steep.
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:20.239
Um bear, but two of them.
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:25.599
And how did you get involved in participating in this article?
00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:36.239
So as I was like going through my recovery, uh, a friend of mine asked and said he had an acquaintance that was had been diagnosed with overtraining syndrome.
00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:42.639
This is Susan, and she he had told her about me and she wanted to talk to me.
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:44.400
And he was like, hey, can I give her your number?
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:45.920
And I was like, Yeah, of course.
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:52.320
So uh we chatted um and I kind of counseled her through her initial recovery.
00:37:52.480 --> 00:38:06.719
And she's actually a medical writer, so we were talking a lot about how we wished that there was more information out on this, and so we agreed we should, there should be like some type of case series uh article on our cases.
00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:12.639
So we actually started writing it, and then I looped in Mike Wolf uh to be a part of it as well.
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:18.320
And then we we took kind of our our draft article and chopped it around.
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:23.119
Our our our key doctor we wanted to publish it uh was Dr.
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:23.760
Krayer.
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:29.360
He'd done some prior research and articles, journal articles on overtraining syndrome.
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:32.639
And he agreed to kind of take our our cases.
00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:34.719
And of course, he completely rewrote it.
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:38.000
It's his our article, uh, to be clear.
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:45.760
But uh, but um yeah, we're very thankful that he he took it on and and published it and in the British Medical Journal.
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:46.960
So Yeah.
00:38:47.199 --> 00:38:57.760
Um I read this article and just there's so much in there that I think is really valuable to ultra running community.
00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:05.039
I think we're such a sport where we um start glorifying over training, basically.
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:05.920
Totally.
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:07.119
It is true, yeah.
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:14.239
Like we we deify the people that do the most uh classically in the sport.
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:21.679
Yeah, and um so uh little uh out there about this.
00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:36.639
Yeah and what so many things surprised me in the article, but what I really liked about it is that it gave a like a solution, the phases of recovery, which I'd love to talk a little bit about the phases of recovery and how it applied to you.
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:41.760
And they're lengthy times when we're talking about like injuries and recovery.
00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:43.039
It is, yeah.
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:49.760
I mean, so and I'll probably butcher it, but then I'll try to paraphrase the way Dr.
00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:59.760
Krayer describes this because I he's spent so much time around this and spent so much time studying it that he he describes it in much simpler and more straightforward terms.
00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:02.400
Than I've read or seen other places.
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:17.840
And so he kind of describes it as like a cycle of, you know, maybe, you know, functional overreaching in your training, where you're you're applying a large amount of stress, but your body's adapting to it, right?
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:24.159
And you're you might choose key times to do that in your in your training load, uh your training season.
00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:35.440
Um and then if you overdo that or do too much of it, you can have non-functional overreaching where you're um you know your body's not responding to that stress.
00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:44.480
And the way he described over-training syndrome is basically you're you're you're doing non-functional overreach for a year.
00:40:44.719 --> 00:41:05.760
Um basically you're you're applying stresses to your body, whether that those be training stresses or life stresses or any kind of stress, but basically where your body's unable to adapt to um to that stress, and it becomes a chronic condition where your body, rather than adapting positively, it's deteriorating from the stress.
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:11.440
That is like the exact opposite that you want to happen with training.
00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:12.960
Totally, yeah.
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:24.880
And how do you now looking back, can you would you be able to identify that that's happening in your body today?
00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:32.880
Um yeah, well, I mean, I think my training wasn't great.
00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:40.559
Like I I ran, and I I feel like this is like everybody hears this, but I was running my my easy runs too too hard.
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:42.480
Yeah, nobody knows what that means.
00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:45.440
Because it's all it's all it's all based on you, right?
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:46.159
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:55.519
So well, I think there are key, well, there's uh objective and subjective measures to to quantify this.
00:41:55.760 --> 00:42:00.159
Um and we we provide some of those in the in the getting healthy portion of the article.
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:03.599
But I think these are things that you can apply while you're healthy too, right?
00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:16.400
And like Garmin gives you some of these things, or Koros does, like tracking your daily heart rate variability and your resting heart rate and looking for you know bad trends in that data and then making adjustments to fix it.
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:19.199
But I think the biggest thing is getting to know yourself.
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:30.719
And I think myself and a lot of runners and ultra runners in general, like my perspective used to be like I kind of kept my running and the rest of my life separate.
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:34.079
And as long as my runs went okay, I ignored everything else.
00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:38.400
And like I wanted, I always felt like more is better.
00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:40.000
Like if I can train harder.
00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:45.760
Like I remember when I was first looking for a coach, I wanted a coach that like yell at me on the track and be like, go harder.
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:46.480
Go harder.
00:42:48.320 --> 00:43:02.639
We were just we just had an interview with uh our PT Michael Morrison, and he was talking a lot about this idea called meds, which essentially just means like the other stresses in your life affect your ability to cope with running stress.
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:06.800
And I exclaimed in that podcast of like, oh, but I don't like to do that.
00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:07.840
I like to keep them separate.
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:11.199
I want to train as hard as possible, and then the rest of the life just happens, right?
00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:12.719
And you you have the same idea.
00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:18.480
Like it's very common for us to just disassociate the two, but I mean they all exist too.
00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:19.440
It's all stress, right?
00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:23.920
Your body is adapting to stress, so it doesn't really know the difference.
00:43:24.159 --> 00:43:29.199
Um, and I think what I've found, like I'm in the best shape of my life.
00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:39.679
I think my I'm still impacted by OTS and I have to be careful with some things, but but outside of that, I am in the best shape of my life at 50 years old, like post-over-training syndrome.
00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:52.960
So I think like if you learn to listen to your body and like adjust when your body sends you signals, whether those are objective or subjective, like I think you can actually train better.
00:43:53.679 --> 00:44:00.480
I would love to talk a little bit about that because that wasn't the case for all of the athletes in the case study.
00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:08.239
Like you came back and then um the female athlete, she did not.
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:10.320
Well, she's early.
00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:15.199
So she read the article like very early in her process.
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:17.199
So it's just there was more time with me.
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:25.119
I hope that Sue and she she is working out and doing things, um and but she's early in the process, right?
00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:30.480
Um, I think she didn't catch it earlier, which is gonna help her hopefully progress more quickly than I did.
00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:32.880
Um she had some different symptoms too.
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:35.440
Maybe we can talk about that a little bit.
00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:44.800
She she experienced um incontinent incontinence through exercise, which was not one of the symptoms that you experienced.
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:59.599
But she also had the same brain fog, um not inability to sleep well, some of those, and um some of the more um mental um what would you think?
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:04.800
Depression has got to be very common with it because I mean, yeah, it sucks in general.
00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:09.199
And then, you know, it a lot of times it's causing hormone issues and everything.
00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:18.960
So um I know Mike talks about, you know, he he was certainly in, you know, struggled with depression at the time he had overtraining syndrome as well.
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:20.960
Um but yeah.
00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:27.760
I mean it's gotta be very difficult to lose to lose your primary sport.
00:45:28.159 --> 00:45:29.440
But I don't think it's just that.
00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:42.239
It seems to be more like like you mentioned like the hormone imbalances, like there it it's people who haven't experienced depression before suddenly are experiencing depression.
00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:43.599
Yeah.
00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:48.480
And we had uh when we had um Justin Simtek Did I say it right?
00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:49.679
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:55.039
Yeah, when we had him talking about overtraining syndrome, he had mild psychosis.
00:45:55.599 --> 00:46:00.239
Yeah, he actually had uh this disassociation of his own body parts.
00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:02.719
He thought his hand was other people's hands.
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:03.760
It was not his hand.
00:46:03.920 --> 00:46:04.159
Wow.
00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:16.159
Like his his body was like basically saying the rest of your body is not this, like a very a crazy mental symptom you know, produced by the same syndrome, right?
00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:20.960
Like cortisol and and your brain just not uh handling the stuff.
00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:21.920
Yeah, I'm not surprised.
00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:27.440
I mean, I wouldn't be surprised with anything with this, honestly, because it's yeah, it screws you up so horribly.
00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:30.079
So yeah, I mean it can resent as anything.
00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:31.920
Yes, it's untestable.
00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:36.719
Yeah, but it can come on when you're not increasing training load.
00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:50.239
How I guess if you could how would how would you tell somebody who might think out there that like, oh, I wonder if this is happening to me.
00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:51.199
What should they look for?
00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:53.599
What should they test for?
00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:54.800
Who should they go see?
00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:55.440
I don't know.
00:46:55.599 --> 00:47:01.920
Like like how do we how do how do we make the turnaround faster than what you had your two years?
00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:08.800
Yeah, well, I think um I think in it I've always been kind of a metrics person.
00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:17.920
So um I think as talk technology has improved, we have like the it's easy to get your heart rate variability, resting heart rate, things like that.
00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:22.800
Like I'm sure if I had been tracking those at the time, I would have seen them going haywire.
00:47:23.199 --> 00:47:31.360
And but my mentality back then would probably would have probably been to ignore them and keep training hard as long as I could still run, right?
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:35.199
Um, so I don't think that would have changed it, but I it should have.
00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:52.400
Um uh I think if we can approach running with that kind of a mentality where like it and Killian talks about this in his his book, um Training for the Uphill Athlete, like like training and running is about health, right?
00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:54.800
And to be that your best athlete, you have to be healthy.
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:56.960
So that includes like, how are you sleeping?
00:47:57.199 --> 00:48:03.119
How are you eating, all those things that I tried to ignore and now I've integrated.
00:48:03.280 --> 00:48:12.000
Um, and yeah, it takes extra work and might be a pain, but like it, it it really is important in getting the most out of yourself.
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:18.880
And especially like we're we're asking a lot of our bodies um in in these events and in the training in general.
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:32.639
Um, so I think yeah, listening to all that, there was stuff my wife used to tell me that I ignored, like that uh like after in this time, like after I get back from a run, my horse would, my voice would be hoarse.
00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:35.920
Um and I'd be like, oh, I'm fine.
00:48:36.079 --> 00:48:38.800
But that's what you told me at Dark Divide.
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:39.440
Yeah.
00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:41.599
Like John, John, you're you sound hoarse.
00:48:41.679 --> 00:48:42.960
You're probably dehydrated.
00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:44.719
Yeah, that's what I've come to learn.
00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:45.519
So I don't know.
00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:55.519
I'm just paying more attention to my body and like when things don't feel right, I really try to dig into what might be causing it and looking for patterns and and all of that.
00:48:55.679 --> 00:48:59.599
I've just I've been, you know, better at identifying those things.
00:48:59.679 --> 00:49:04.000
And I like I can't what I one thing I've realized about myself is I can't have a coach.
00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:09.440
Um, I feel like a failure if I can't complete the training plan the way they have it written.
00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:12.079
Like I know I can ask, like say, hey, I don't feel great today.
00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:13.760
Can we shift this workout later?
00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:15.519
But it makes me feel bad.
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:18.079
Um, and that's that's not healthy for me.
00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:27.199
So I have a training background, so I'm able to like just kind of roll with it every day and and be like, today I feel like doing this.
00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:31.760
And I haven't done a workout in a while, so maybe I should do a workout if I feel good.
00:49:31.840 --> 00:49:40.559
Um but I keep it way more open-ended, and I think that just allows me to get more out of my body by doing things when it's ready for it.
00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:48.639
Would you say that's the major um treatment that you've done?
00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:52.800
Like aside from many like uh topical lotions?
00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:55.760
Yeah, just just really listening to your body.
00:49:55.920 --> 00:49:58.079
And like that's the biggest change.
00:49:58.159 --> 00:50:00.239
Listening to my body, making adjustments.
00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:12.480
Like I'll I've driven to a trailhead before and uh you know, 45 minutes from my house, gotten there, gotten out of the car, and been like, ah, actually, I'm not feeling it today, and turned around and driven back home.
00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:20.639
Like I've gotten just really in tune with my body and like open to adjusting at any point.
00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:26.239
Yeah, I think that's so important and not talked about enough in our sport.
00:50:26.719 --> 00:50:31.360
It's just like, let's let's not push through all the adversities.
00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:37.039
We just had a uh guest not too long ago that was like, I'll crawl across the finish line with a broken leg.
00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:39.679
And I was like, ooh, is this healthy?
00:50:40.639 --> 00:50:42.719
Should we be promoting this?
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:44.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:46.159
To be clear, I think you can push your body.
00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:47.119
Like I still do.
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:50.480
Like I'm I'm doing ridiculous training.
00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:56.159
I I'm training like an average of over 20 hours a week this year.
00:50:56.320 --> 00:50:58.960
There's been weeks of close to 40 hours of training.
00:50:59.119 --> 00:50:59.599
Wow.
00:50:59.920 --> 00:51:03.920
And I'm almost at 1.5 million feet of earth for the year.
00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:06.159
Like a lot.
00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:09.920
Yeah, you ask a lot of your body still.
00:51:10.159 --> 00:51:10.480
Wow.
00:51:11.119 --> 00:51:17.920
But doing it in a way that, you know, that matches what your body can provide in that moment that it can provide it.
00:51:18.239 --> 00:51:18.719
Totally.
00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:19.360
Yeah.
00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:19.920
Yeah.
00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:32.320
And choosing like for me, and I think this is actually a difference post-OTS, and this is true of Mike as well, um, where neither of us feel like we can push as hard as we used to before overtraining syndrome.
00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:38.800
I actually haven't talked to anybody who's had overtraining syndrome who feels like they're the same athlete they were before.
00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:41.360
And for both of us, that's that's what it is.
00:51:41.599 --> 00:51:44.159
The difference is we can't like push as hard.
00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:47.360
Um I can push hard.
00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:54.320
Like if I have a huge base, I can push hard briefly, but um, but I have to keep it kind of in check.
00:51:55.039 --> 00:51:58.239
So those days of the 5kPR are probably.
00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:00.320
Yeah, probably probably over.
00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:02.320
That's okay, though.
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:03.519
That's okay.
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:09.920
I one thing we may have glossed over, I want to touch on, is the distance.
00:52:10.559 --> 00:52:16.400
Like, how long did it take you to come back to running uh 100 milers, which seems to be your thing.
00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:18.239
I don't know if it really is.
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:26.079
But from that, like you saw this uh naturopath in early 2021.
00:52:26.239 --> 00:52:27.440
How long from then?
00:52:27.679 --> 00:52:32.079
And you started to turn it around, how long till you were able to finish 100?
00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:34.639
Good training in 2022.
00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:39.119
Um, High Lonesome was again my kind of target race for that year.
00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:41.440
Unfortunately, I got COVID right before it.
00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:48.639
Um I tested negative, uh, I think it was the day before the race.
00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:53.039
So I went ahead and started, which was a mistake, of course.
00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:56.480
Uh, I hadn't learned to listen to my body yet at that point.
00:52:57.039 --> 00:52:59.280
Um it's a process.
00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:00.320
Yes, yes.
00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:06.480
So I'd say it was kind of after that high lonesome over the next year where I I really learned to listen to my body.
00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:13.840
I didn't, I like leaned more into more vert, um, which I feel like just works well for my body.
00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:20.000
Listening to Scott Johnson, I think there's a lot about like uh muscular endurance that has to do with that.
00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:25.920
But um but the 2023 High Lonesome was my best hundred ever.
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:29.039
Um it was my first hundred back and my best hundred ever.
00:53:29.199 --> 00:53:31.440
Um just wow great.
00:53:31.599 --> 00:53:34.159
Um that's amazing.
00:53:34.800 --> 00:53:39.199
I I was happy, like having a blast the entire day.
00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:44.480
I thought like I was my my main concern was that I was annoying because I was so happy.
00:53:45.679 --> 00:53:53.920
I just felt like so grateful to be there when I thought like at certainly many times during this, I thought I'd never be able to run again, much less run a hundred.
00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:59.679
And um yeah, ran under 24 hours, you know, podium finite.
00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:01.679
Um, so felt great.
00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:06.639
I think sub-24 at Hyla's pretty, pretty darn good.
00:54:07.119 --> 00:54:08.719
Especially for my age.
00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:20.880
Uh I want to make sure we don't skip over anything in the article that you wanted to touch on because that I really enjoyed reading that article and I thought it was really valuable.
00:54:21.199 --> 00:54:30.880
Yeah, I think well, I part of the reason we wanted to put it out there is just like to show both that there's similarities across the three cases and that there's just vast differences.
00:54:31.039 --> 00:54:42.320
And so for people who think that they might have it, like I think it can be helpful to read and just like read these case studies of like how it presented in these three different people.
00:54:42.559 --> 00:54:49.840
And um and it presented differently even in the other individual we had on the podcast who talked about it.
00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:58.559
So now you have three case studies that we'll share with our listeners, and the fourth, the podcast we did with Justin.
00:54:58.880 --> 00:54:59.679
There you go.
00:54:59.920 --> 00:55:06.559
Yeah, and then you know, the we tried to put together a kind of a return to running program, as you were mentioning.
00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:08.480
Yes, the three phases.
00:55:08.800 --> 00:55:15.920
Yeah, and so a lot of that is like listening to your body, like looking at heart rate variability and you know, choosing when to run based on that.
00:55:16.079 --> 00:55:27.599
So it's a lot of the stuff that I'm talking about, but um, but yeah, it kind of gives a uh uh prescription for how to apply that.
00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:41.119
Um and I think you could you could read that even as someone that doesn't have overtraining syndrome and start to apply it to your own running as well, um, to to help to avoid you know even getting started down that path.
00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:43.039
Yeah.
00:55:43.519 --> 00:55:46.960
Well, Dave, what's next for you with your running?
00:55:47.360 --> 00:55:54.239
Yeah, so hundreds are I'm sure I'll run more hundreds, but they've become less of a focus for me.
00:55:54.559 --> 00:56:05.280
Um I I broke my ankle, unfortunately, shortly after the high loathsome uh 2023 where I had a a blast.
00:56:05.360 --> 00:56:10.559
I was in Norway and uh and and yeah, broke it badly.
00:56:10.719 --> 00:56:14.000
Uh so got a bunch of hardware added to my ankle.
00:56:14.079 --> 00:56:16.079
Um and took it that bad.
00:56:16.320 --> 00:56:16.880
What's that?
00:56:17.199 --> 00:56:20.000
That bad where you had to have screws in there.
00:56:20.320 --> 00:56:28.800
Yeah, like I I was running down a trail and it broke and my it was like literally sticking out sideways for my my foot was sticking out sideways from my leg.
00:56:29.119 --> 00:56:29.440
No.
00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:32.800
Oh, this makes me very uncomfortable.
00:56:33.119 --> 00:56:36.480
I had to crawl to the trailhead and like get help.
00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:38.400
Oh man.
00:56:38.559 --> 00:56:40.000
You were running alone.
00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:41.280
I was alone, yeah.
00:56:41.440 --> 00:56:41.599
Yeah.
00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:46.559
Uh oh yeah.
00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:48.960
Did you have to get airlifted out of there?
00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:49.760
What's that?
00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:50.639
No, no.
00:56:50.800 --> 00:57:00.400
I crawled and and then got some people to help me at the trailhead uh to get an ambulance, three hours of ambulance rides, and yeah.
00:57:01.119 --> 00:57:01.599
Wow.
00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:02.639
These are great.
00:57:02.719 --> 00:57:05.360
I mean, this could be a whole nother story for running with problems.
00:57:05.599 --> 00:57:09.199
You are you are an ideal guest for the bunch of things the wrong way.
00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:10.480
I'll I'll say that.
00:57:11.760 --> 00:57:15.199
Dave, um, I can't believe we're at an hour already.
00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:18.639
I could talk to you probably for another hour.
00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:22.800
Um, this article just, I mean, it really blew my mind.
00:57:22.960 --> 00:57:27.119
So I really want everyone listening to go read this article for themselves.
00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:32.239
Because honestly, I feel like we barely scratched the surface with it.
00:57:32.480 --> 00:57:33.039
Yeah, I know.
00:57:33.519 --> 00:57:39.280
Um, we like to end our podcast by asking you to share a piece of advice with our listeners.
00:57:39.679 --> 00:57:40.000
Yeah.
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:47.280
So I I think it's kind of uh reiterating a little bit of what we talked about, but listen to your body, learn to listen to your body.
00:57:47.360 --> 00:57:52.960
I think as runners, it's one of the best things you can do for both your performance and your long-term health.
00:57:53.119 --> 00:57:56.400
And then also like question the experts.
00:57:56.559 --> 00:58:00.800
Like, especially in this sport, like nobody's actually an expert.
00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:04.800
They might be an expert in themselves, but there's so much we don't know.
00:58:05.199 --> 00:58:09.199
Um, there's so much that that doctors don't know about your health.
00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:11.519
Like, do your own research.
00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:19.440
You're an end of one, like believe yourself over anyone else, uh, your coach, your doctor, or whatever.
00:58:19.599 --> 00:58:29.519
Um yeah, that has been something that I've consistently found through guests that we've had with unique medical situations.
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:39.119
Sammy, Chris McBride, some of these folks who have unique medical conditions and they want to run 100 milers, doctors just don't know what to do with them.
00:58:40.880 --> 00:58:44.400
Most doctors be like, Well, you just stop running, you'd be all right.
00:58:44.559 --> 00:58:47.119
It's like, well, probably get depressed.
00:58:47.360 --> 00:58:48.000
Yeah.
00:58:48.960 --> 00:58:52.960
Thank you so much, Dave, for uh being on the podcast sharing your story.
00:58:53.039 --> 00:59:01.119
And uh listeners, if you guys, if anybody else is uh feeling like they might have overtraining sit there, feel free to reach out and we'll connect you.
00:59:01.280 --> 00:59:02.880
And thanks for listening.
00:59:03.360 --> 00:59:04.320
Thank you.
00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:13.840
So I read this article and in the article, and I actually um the story in the article and I actually copied it.
00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:19.199
Um I didn't know it was you yet because I didn't know who which one of the case studies you was you.
00:59:19.360 --> 00:59:23.760
And then I sent it to my friends and I was like, we have to avoid overtraining syndrome.
00:59:23.920 --> 00:59:25.440
This could happen to you.
00:59:26.320 --> 00:59:27.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:59:28.960 --> 00:59:30.079
Oh my gosh, yeah.
00:59:30.239 --> 00:59:31.760
No, the craziest story.
00:59:31.920 --> 00:59:37.360
So my wife, I drive her crazy because I tell like everybody the story.
00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:38.719
I think it's the best story.
00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:41.679
It's a little bit embarrassing, I guess.
00:59:41.920 --> 00:59:50.639
But um, okay, so this was like in the worst part of my symptoms for overtraining, where I was like bumping into walls and my skin was breaking.
00:59:50.880 --> 00:59:56.400
Um, I was like having sexual impacts from like the low testosterone at this point.
00:59:56.559 --> 00:59:58.960
Like my sex drive wasn't as high.
00:59:59.119 --> 00:59:59.679
Uh, my rate.
01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:01.760
Direction quality wasn't as great.
01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:04.480
Like I was not in a good place.
01:00:04.719 --> 01:00:17.920
Um but and I and I like to set the scene here because I feel like you've got to be able to picture the scene in your mind because it's like burned into my mind just because of how crazy it is.
01:00:18.159 --> 01:00:25.039
So I set the scene, but it I think it can make it sound like there's some fault on my wife.
01:00:25.199 --> 01:00:28.000
So I want to make sure there's no fault.
01:00:28.320 --> 01:00:30.079
It's nothing to do with with her.
01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:37.280
Like this is meet my broken body, uh, you know, uh falling apart in the process of falling apart.
01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:42.480
But um, yeah, it has nothing to do with her, but other than that she was unfortunately present for it.
01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:44.320
Present for it, yeah.
01:00:45.679 --> 01:00:46.000
Okay.
01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:52.400
So with that, um, so we were having sex in early January of 2021.
01:00:52.719 --> 01:01:03.039
She was on top, and and she kind of was writing in like something hit a little bit wrong, but like not painful or anything like that.
01:01:03.199 --> 01:01:08.400
And so she kept going, and like I was like, uh things seem a little wet.
01:01:08.559 --> 01:01:12.960
I'm like looking down and it there's blood down there, and I'm like, is she on her period?
01:01:13.039 --> 01:01:17.840
And she's I I like look up at her and she's I can tell a little confused too.
01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:37.840
And so she like backs off and gets off my my dick, and like it's there sticking straight up with like a fountain of blood spraying into the air, like just a solid stream of blood.
01:01:38.320 --> 01:01:41.840
Oh both of us were like in shock, of course.
01:01:41.920 --> 01:01:52.239
Like, I'm just getting like painted in blood, like our beds covered in blood on our wall, like around our bed, like everything is covered in blood.
01:01:52.559 --> 01:01:54.639
That is not something you expect to see.
01:01:54.880 --> 01:02:00.559
I can't no like my initial thought was like, I'm gonna run out of blood.
01:02:00.639 --> 01:02:02.159
Like, this is so much blood.
01:02:02.559 --> 01:02:04.960
I don't I only have so much.
01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:08.800
So I like grab it to like try and like stop.
01:02:09.119 --> 01:02:11.039
Yeah, you're trying to stop the bleeding.
01:02:11.280 --> 01:02:12.320
Stop the bleeding.
01:02:13.119 --> 01:02:14.559
And it kind of does.
01:02:14.639 --> 01:02:18.559
Like, I'm able to stop the bleeding by like squeezing it.
01:02:19.119 --> 01:02:23.039
And I'm like, we both like jump out of bed and we're like, what do we do?
01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:25.920
And like, we're like, we got to go to the hospital, right?
01:02:26.079 --> 01:02:33.440
And we where we live in Seattle, like I'm like, it's gonna take longer for an ambulance to get here and then drive me back.
01:02:33.599 --> 01:02:35.280
I'm like, let's just go ourselves.
01:02:35.440 --> 01:02:36.559
You can drive me.
01:02:36.800 --> 01:02:47.760
And so quickly jump in the shower because we're just like doused in blood and like rinse off while I'm holding on to my dick, like swapping hands carefully.
01:02:47.920 --> 01:02:59.360
And like she helps me get some sweats on as I like swap hands, and then right before we leave, I'm like, we have to take a picture of this because they're not gonna believe like how much their blood this is.
01:02:59.519 --> 01:03:07.280
So we like took a picture of the bed and then jumped in the car and started going to the hospital.
01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:11.599
And uh, I started kind of losing consciousness in the car.
01:03:11.840 --> 01:03:13.840
Yeah, you lost all that blood.
01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:14.480
Right.
01:03:15.199 --> 01:03:24.320
But I'm like trying to stay conscious enough not to lose grip on my drug because I'm like afraid if I let go, it's just gonna start spraying out again.
01:03:24.559 --> 01:03:33.280
Um, so we get to the the hospital and she runs in and like is yelling, but my husband's like bleeding profusely, and they come out and get me.
01:03:33.360 --> 01:03:36.159
And of course, it looks like I have no blood on me at this point.
01:03:36.400 --> 01:03:43.599
But we get back there, we describe what happened, they get an IV in, and I start, you know, regaining consciousness.
01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:49.280
And um, and they're like, you know, can you try and let go?
01:03:49.360 --> 01:03:54.880
And so I do, and it's not really bleeding, like maybe a few drips, but like not bleeding anymore, thankfully.
01:03:54.960 --> 01:03:56.559
And they're like, Well, can you urinate?
01:03:56.719 --> 01:04:00.400
So I tried that and had some blood in it, but not bad.
01:04:00.639 --> 01:04:05.679
Um, and so they, of course, got their on-call urologist in.
01:04:05.920 --> 01:04:08.159
They couldn't quite figure out what was going on.
01:04:08.320 --> 01:04:21.679
They they did a CT scan with contrast where they like sprayed contrast up my dick basically to see if it was like entering my system anywhere it shouldn't be.
01:04:21.840 --> 01:04:23.679
Um, and that came back clear.
01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:27.840
Like there, it didn't look like there were any holes where there shouldn't be a hole.
01:04:28.320 --> 01:04:33.039
Um, and so they it was like really late at night, probably three in the morning at this point.
01:04:33.119 --> 01:04:36.960
And they were like, well, like you've kind of got two choices at this point.
01:04:37.119 --> 01:04:44.800
We can do exploratory surgery and like re-circumcise you and like dissect your penis to try and figure out what's going on.
01:04:45.599 --> 01:04:52.239
Or they're like, you can go home and then come back uh in a couple days and we'll do a scope and put a camera out there.
01:04:52.639 --> 01:04:55.840
Yeah, I think this the one without the exploratory surgery, probably.
01:04:56.079 --> 01:04:57.280
Yeah, I was like, okay.
01:04:57.519 --> 01:05:04.719
I think doctors are really good at making these, like, like they know what they want you to pick and they make it really clear which one is the right answer.
01:05:04.960 --> 01:05:10.960
Um, so we went home and like it's still like dripping blood here and there, but not much.
01:05:11.280 --> 01:05:29.679
So I like had shorts on and stuck a towel in my shorts and we went to sleep and woke up like four or five hours later and um like opened up the covers and there's just a pile like pool of blood with like so much blood that there's like blood clots on the bed.
01:05:29.760 --> 01:05:30.960
It was disgusting.
01:05:31.760 --> 01:05:35.039
This is our guest room because we couldn't go back to our our bedroom.
01:05:36.079 --> 01:05:39.679
So you've ruined all the beds in your head, all over the house.
01:05:41.679 --> 01:05:51.039
So we go back to the hospital, of course, and they're like, Yeah, um, we'll definitely need to uh do surgery.
01:05:51.199 --> 01:06:03.760
So this is during COVID, so they um they didn't have uh my my wife couldn't be in the hospital, so she had to like wait in the car, and they're like, it should be like a half hour surgery or something.
01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:04.480
Sure.
01:06:05.039 --> 01:06:05.679
Yeah.
01:06:07.280 --> 01:06:14.320
Uh but like five hours later uh came out of it, and they figured it out.
01:06:14.480 --> 01:06:16.320
Thankfully, there was no long-term impact.
01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:25.199
But basically what happened it was a uh penile fracture, which is there's like three erection tubes that fill with blood when you get an erection.
01:06:25.440 --> 01:06:30.719
And I'm probably butchering the explanation, but right, they make it hard with the blood.
01:06:31.039 --> 01:06:36.719
You get a penile fracture, one of those ruptures, and typically there's a bunch of internal bleeding.
01:06:36.800 --> 01:06:44.639
Uh, but in my case, um, it at the same point that it ruptured, it also uh ruptured the urethra.
01:06:44.719 --> 01:06:47.519
So it basically just sprayed out rather than being internal.
01:06:47.599 --> 01:06:50.639
So in some ways it was better than a normal nail fracture.
01:06:50.800 --> 01:06:52.960
It also happened like way closer to the tip.
01:06:53.039 --> 01:06:55.119
That's why the contrast didn't work.
01:06:56.559 --> 01:07:07.039
Um and uh yeah, so they did surgery and you know, stitched everything back up and um thank you.
01:07:08.079 --> 01:07:11.440
Man, you were having a rough, rough year, Dave.
01:07:13.199 --> 01:07:14.079
Yeah, yeah.
01:07:14.480 --> 01:07:16.320
No wonder you were depressed.
01:07:16.639 --> 01:07:30.719
Yeah, actually, the worst part of it, the the it wasn't painful, but the the surgery uh one one they had to do the breathing tube, like I had to be fully knocked out with surgery, like that was kind of painful afterwards, like my throat.
01:07:30.880 --> 01:07:36.480
And then um I had a catheter for like two weeks, and that was horrible.
01:07:36.800 --> 01:07:46.400
Um if you ever have a as a guy have a catheter, you need lube on the catheter because if you get like an erection at night without lube, it's like the worst thing.
01:07:46.639 --> 01:07:50.000
Oh my god, and you can't really control that, it's like all in your head.
01:07:50.559 --> 01:07:51.760
Oh Jesus.
01:07:52.800 --> 01:07:56.480
Well, there's some there's some extra running tips for y'all, right?
01:07:56.719 --> 01:07:59.119
Get lube on your catheters everyone.
01:07:59.920 --> 01:08:00.559
Yep.
01:08:00.880 --> 01:08:01.920
Oh my god.
01:08:02.159 --> 01:08:04.880
And then and then it didn't actually end there.
01:08:05.119 --> 01:08:14.639
So sex for for six weeks, and I and kind of gotten back to sex, like so it was like seven weeks after that, and then I got a kidney stone.
01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:19.279
And that was related to the OTS, likely, right?
01:08:19.600 --> 01:08:21.439
They well, yeah, they're not sure.
01:08:21.600 --> 01:08:25.199
I mean, doc doctors will be like, oh, these are all separate incidents or whatever.
01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:28.319
Oh, another one of the athletes had kidney stone.
01:08:29.199 --> 01:08:29.760
Right.
01:08:29.920 --> 01:08:36.319
Um, but it was like I had all kinds of complications with the kidney stone, so ended up needing multiple surgeries for that.
01:08:36.399 --> 01:08:40.960
And yeah, it was not you gotta pass that, doesn't that come out through the penis as well?
01:08:41.279 --> 01:08:51.119
If they don't do surgery, yeah, if they don't do surgery, which actually would have been better, but I I mean I had stitches inside my urethra, so I was pretty worried about it.
01:08:51.840 --> 01:08:52.640
Oh my god.
01:08:53.039 --> 01:09:02.880
But uh, but in my case, it got stuck um in between the the kidney and the um uh bladder.
01:09:03.039 --> 01:09:08.239
So they had to first they tried to do surgery to take it out from there, but they couldn't get it out.
01:09:08.319 --> 01:09:14.479
So they stuck in a stint, and I had to have a stint to like stretch things out for a couple weeks.
01:09:14.640 --> 01:09:26.239
Um, and then my body rejected the stint, so I had like blood clots and back up into my kidney, and so it was on like super high-powered uh pain medication.
01:09:26.399 --> 01:09:30.239
That was the most painful thing I've ever experienced in my life, I will say.
01:09:31.680 --> 01:09:33.520
So anytime you're nothing to it.
01:09:33.600 --> 01:09:37.439
I I had morphine and it was like I'm still like 10 out of 10 pain.
01:09:37.520 --> 01:09:41.119
Uh so they gave me this stuff dilatid or hydromorphone.
01:09:41.199 --> 01:09:43.119
That is like the best drug ever.
01:09:43.680 --> 01:09:47.920
No wonder when you got back to running hilo, you were just like, this is great.
01:09:48.000 --> 01:09:50.560
Yeah, arguing with this all day.
01:09:50.800 --> 01:09:51.439
Yeah.
01:09:53.840 --> 01:09:56.239
This pain doesn't touch me.
01:09:58.640 --> 01:09:59.279
Yeah.
01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:02.640
So, anyways, that's the story.