Anxious Attachment Healing: Stop Overthinking & Fear of Abandonment

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All right, everybody. Welcome to the Rooted Conversations
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podcast. Today, my guest is Valerie Rubin. Valerie
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and I were trying to figure out the last time
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we met. It's been years ago. Her podcast is the
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Anxiety Recovery podcast. And I'll link to that.
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And I was just kind of reflecting on that podcast
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and I remember If I'm correct, at that time,
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to show how much things can shift in a short
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period of time, I believe that trauma had to
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do with, you know, only people who were in the
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military or in bad accidents. And I was still
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in my fix and figure out and force mode when
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it came to healing anxiety. I thought it was
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due to nutritional deficiencies. And I laugh
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because so much has changed. And also to demonstrate
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that it is okay to change our mind and change
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what we think, and that's what growth is. Valerie,
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welcome to the theater. Thank you so much for
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having me on Mitch. And yeah, like I totally
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hear where you're coming from. A lot of people
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can go down that route like health wise and be
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like, Oh, it's these toxins. Oh, it's because
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I have a parasite. It's because of this nutritional
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deficiency. And while those things may not make
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your mental health better, but it's not typically
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a root cause like 99 % of the time it's trauma
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or our environment or most likely a combination
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of both. Fun fact, before I started my career
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in psychology, I started a certification in health
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coaching and then I decided to pivot into hypnotherapy
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and then somatic therapy and all the things.
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I understand where you're coming from. I find
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that if we go down that route, of just focusing
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on the physical health things or the nutritional
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deficiencies that we might have, it almost gives
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us unconsciously a form of control versus our
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trauma that we've experienced as children or
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CBTSD can look harder to quote unquote treat
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or resolve. Yeah, and that when you say that
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I agree with that and it's kind of like the I
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just had a question about You know, is it top
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-down or is it bottom -up? And what I've learned
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I used to think there was a war between the two
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and that it's all somatic and you know The brain
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is just force and overriding but if we if we
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don't work with our beliefs Then we're disconnecting
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from the body if we don't work with our body
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and we're only working with the mind then we're
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disconnecting from the body and And so much of
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this work is being in relationship with, and
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it's really easy to go into the force, fix it,
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figure out, do, do, do mentality because that's
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what society rewards and that's what looks sexy.
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And until you do this work and you can, you start
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to see more nuance and we have more choice. And
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I think we need both of those worlds to heal.
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I agree and and right like it's not just somatics
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right or it's not just top down like we need
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a combination of both like trauma can affect
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people differently but like many ways that trauma
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can can show up is our in our beliefs and in
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the sensations in our bodies and what's happening
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somatically so it's both and like beliefs and
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catastrophic thinking and rumination, all of
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these can also be protector parts. And it's like
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when we've experienced trauma as a child, we
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don't have that logical part of our mind online
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yet. So we then internalize everything that our
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parents are doing or not doing and starting to
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believe, well, there is something wrong with
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me. I'm not good enough. You know, X, Y, Z is
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better than me. because my parent or parents
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aren't doing XYZ because we don't know any other
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way other than to blame ourselves and that could
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be like self blame is also a big protector part
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in our future relationships and it can carry
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into adulthood if we don't work on that protector
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part as well. Yeah, and what I think about when
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you say that is You know having a belief that
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says there this isn't safe But I'm gonna shake
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until I feel it so we learn something about somatic
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and how we need to feel and move through but
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if we if we discard or we don't we're not aware
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of the beliefs it's easy to You know go into
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that shame part and and and shame ourselves because
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we're and I think for me that feels grosser Is
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what I'm noticing is that disconnection, but
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but it makes sense. It's very Intelligent or
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self -preserving. I believe that I hear this
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in arm where it's like talking about the environment
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if I have environment and no failure as a kid,
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it's impossible for me to look at my parents
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as Having failed my needs not giving me what
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I need and so we turn that back on ourself Mm
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-hmm. Absolutely Because as a child, we are completely
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emotionally and physically dependent on our caregivers
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to meet our needs. So when they are not meeting
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our needs, we don't stop loving ourselves or
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stop loving them. We just begin to start hating
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ourselves. As a result, we then start to create
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protector parts like self blame, fantasy thinking,
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fantasy thinking of if my parent could just go
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to therapy, if they were to change, if they were
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to just stop working and be home with me, then
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everything would be great. Or one that I remember
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vividly like working with in somatic therapy
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and one. distortion that I would use as a child
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was I remember being three years old and you
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know my aunt was married at the time and my parents
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marriage was completely dysfunctional and chaotic
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and I remember being three years old looking
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at my aunt and thinking in my head it's all going
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to be okay when I get married and I grow up so
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that's like an example of fantasy thinking of
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rumination this is like a protector part that
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stops us when our body believes this is going
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to be too much, this is going to be overwhelming.
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Trauma is defined as too much, too fast, too
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overwhelming. So then we create this protector
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part where we're all up in our heads and then
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we completely disconnect from our body. And so
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then we're catastrophizing, ruminating, analyzing
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every situation, analyzing everything that's
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wrong with us, analyzing everything that's wrong
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with situations or people around us or overthinking
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to stop ourselves from actually feeling what's
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happening in our body. And then cognitive dissonance,
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when our parent might be unpredictable or inconsistent.
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This is really common if your parent or parents
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were narcissistic, maybe an alcoholic or just
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unpredictable or inconsistent, right? Like we
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can have parents that are trying their best,
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but it's like, you know, one day they're meeting
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all your needs, they're being great to you when
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they're sober or great to you when their ex -husband
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is out of the picture, but then when, you know,
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the next day, maybe they're cold, maybe they're
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distant, maybe they're harsh toward you, and
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then it creates this cognitive dissonance of,
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but they have been so good to me. are like, they've
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been so good to me. So how could they be this
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type of person? How could they be this type of
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parent? And in adulthood, this is what can keep
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you in toxic relationships is these protector
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parts that don't allow you to see the red flags.
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They don't allow you to see the whole picture
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because that would break a child's psyche if
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they learned my parent or parents cannot meet
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my needs. Because the three -year -olds can't
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just leave their parent. So when we're telling
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people or clients, you just need to leave your
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toxic husband. If they have an unhealed abandonment
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wound, what's going to start happening is they're
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going to block out those red flags. They're going
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to experience cognitive dissonance because if
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the pain of the abandonment is bigger than the
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pain of staying in this relationship, this emotion
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of the pain of abandonment wins every single
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time. And it's it's uh it's saying you know it's
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recognizing we have a need and it's almost like
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we're connecting need to shame and so every time
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we have a need I'm going to shame myself because
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I can't have both and I can't see if the environment
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is not giving me what I want that would be too
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much and then so as adults we take these patterns
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into our relationship and we say, oh man, this
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feels, maybe I've built capacity and I've built
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awareness and I can feel into this environment
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is not for me. But because that's connected to
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a need, if we haven't healed that wound, we're
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going to go back into our patterns. We're going
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to be perfect. We're going to armor up. We're
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going to do the hard thing. We're going to find
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a way to shame and blame ourselves instead of
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trusting the innate intelligence that is coming
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through. Absolutely. And I'm glad you brought
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up shame and then needs because people in these
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types of environments, they start to learn if
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their parent was like, you know, maybe they were
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working a few jobs to keep food on the table.
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You know, maybe they were just right, like I
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said, alcoholics, narcissistic or just emotionally
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unavailable or just inconsistent in meeting your
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needs. The child then learns my needs are too
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much. So then in adulthood, you might have extreme
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anxiety around even sharing your needs or sharing
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that you even experienced fear or anxiety around
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sharing your emotions with others, even if they're
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safe, because you learned I need to suppress
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my needs to be safe. I need to silence this need.
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And so a lot of clients come to me and they Instead
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of realizing this environment is unsafe, they
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blame themselves for their triggers and reactions.
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When in reality, your reactions and triggers
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are completely valid. It's just you haven't learned
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that my needs are okay, that my needs even matter
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in the first place. Absolutely. And I'm just
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learning about all this stuff, learning about
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a little bit about attachment. That's about the
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extent of my knowledge right there than what
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we talked about. I guess I'm curious, you mentioned
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going from health coach and then into more of
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what sounds like the mental health and healing
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space. Tell us a little bit about your background
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and your journey. What can you share about that?
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Yeah, that's such a great question, Mitch. So
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I started out, you know, I was doing all the
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right things. I was seeing a talk therapist for
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five years. I was working out every day. I was
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doing yoga. I was meditating every day. I even
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went on medication. Nothing helped the anxiety
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that I was experiencing until I started to work
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with the body and do somatic work and hypnotherapy.
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before being introduced to those modalities,
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the anxiety was so bad, it started to develop
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into cystic acne all over my face. It started
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to show up as chronic headaches, neck pain, back
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pain, shoulder pain, IBS. Even like different
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doctors were telling me that I had symptoms of
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hydromyalgia in my early 20s. And I was just
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so frustrated feeling like I'm in my early 20s.
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I shouldn't feel this way. I'm young. Why do
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I feel like I'm literally living in the body
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of a 90 year old woman? And then as I started
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incorporating hypnotherapy and somatic work.
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the chronic pain and the health symptoms went
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away within six months. And, you know, family
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relationships started getting better. I wasn't
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as triggered. I started to become repulsed by
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emotionally unavailable partners. I started to
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be able to choose healthier friendships. I was
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able to step into my purpose. I was able to just
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have so much more capacity because I wasn't in
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those type of health issues. And even just each
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day, if I go and strength train, I just thank
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my body for how much I'm able to do because in
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that stretch of time, when I was battling these
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health issues that had no medical cause, they,
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you know, I thought I'd be in a wheelchair at
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this age. I thought I was never going to get
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better. I thought... that I was just stuck in
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this body and so I couldn't even strength train
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or work out all I could do was yoga like very
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gentle yoga because everything else would inflame
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my muscles and my body and so every time I go
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to the gym now I'm like wow thank you body for
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moving with ease thank you body for the ability
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to walk and move And yeah, that's a little bit
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about my story. And then I started to get trained
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as a hypnotherapist and then got trained in somatic
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therapy like IFS, brain spotting. And then I
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learned all about nervous system regulation and
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rewiring. the body rewiring the mind and you
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know our attachment styles are a reflection of
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our nervous system state and how we learn to
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relate with our caregivers. So for example if
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you have an anxious attachment you are chronically
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anxious. So a lot of people will come to me and
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they're concerned about their anxious attachment
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and they look at it as oh my romantic relationships
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are being harmed or they're suffering because
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of my anxious attachment. But your anxious attachment
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style is impacting every single area of your
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life. We could have different attachments, like
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we could be secure in our friendships, anxious
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in our romantic lives, and then like avoid it
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with our business or finances. Or we could just
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be anxious across all three, right? And so It's
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not just a one -off issue. If you're having attachment
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issues, I guarantee you are also having money
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issues. So this is all ways that it shows up.
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You can't just look at your attachment style
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from the lens of, I want healthier romantic partners.
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It's also about your nervous system state. If
00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:17.240
you're chronically anxious, you've learned to
00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:19.139
relate to the world and to your relationships
00:16:19.139 --> 00:16:24.299
in an anxious way. And then if you are more avoidant
00:16:24.299 --> 00:16:28.840
leaning or avoidantly attached. This means that
00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:32.340
your needs were chronically dismissed, unmet,
00:16:32.740 --> 00:16:36.080
or you were neglected. So you learned, I can't
00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:38.039
voice my needs, so instead we're going to shut
00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:43.259
down. We're going to avoid conflict. We're going
00:16:43.259 --> 00:16:47.039
to avoid our feelings because we never learned
00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:51.539
how to attune. they also have a fear of abandonment.
00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:54.659
And then with anxious attachment, they also have
00:16:54.659 --> 00:16:58.480
fear of abandonment. And with anxiously attached
00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:03.179
people, what they end up doing is they are hyper
00:17:03.179 --> 00:17:07.099
available and hyper attuned to other. So they
00:17:07.099 --> 00:17:11.119
learned my needs are inconsistently met. So I
00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:14.000
am chronically anxious. I'm hyper vigilant. I'm,
00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:17.980
I'm someone who can scan the room. I know exactly
00:17:17.980 --> 00:17:20.839
who's walking down the stairs by their energy,
00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:23.559
right? That's hyper vigilance, waiting for the
00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:28.650
shoe to drop, jealousy, co -dependence. codependency
00:17:28.650 --> 00:17:31.210
that a lot of the times my clients describe it
00:17:31.210 --> 00:17:34.089
as, is my partner had a bad day? Now I'm having
00:17:34.089 --> 00:17:38.349
a bad day. If my partner's safe, I'm safe. And
00:17:38.349 --> 00:17:42.609
so this is a lot of the work that I do is helping
00:17:42.609 --> 00:17:45.089
people realize, hey, your attachment style is
00:17:45.089 --> 00:17:48.650
not your identity. This is a beginning start.
00:17:49.069 --> 00:17:52.630
Your attachment style is not fixed. It is something
00:17:52.630 --> 00:17:55.150
that we can work on. No matter what attachment
00:17:55.150 --> 00:17:58.269
label, attachment style you are, we can all move
00:17:58.269 --> 00:18:03.009
toward a secure way of being and more securely
00:18:03.009 --> 00:18:07.130
attached relationships. Wow. Thank you for sharing
00:18:07.130 --> 00:18:12.630
all that. First, I just want to go back to doing
00:18:12.630 --> 00:18:15.549
all the right things and nothing seems to work.
00:18:15.750 --> 00:18:20.269
I mean, that's bad. That's myself. biohacking
00:18:20.269 --> 00:18:23.690
and looking for the perfect diet and, uh, you
00:18:23.690 --> 00:18:25.930
know, ultimately trying to control what didn't
00:18:25.930 --> 00:18:29.130
feel safe. And that was everything. And we, we
00:18:29.130 --> 00:18:32.569
feel like if I can check the boxes, you know,
00:18:32.710 --> 00:18:34.309
cross all the things off the list and I do that
00:18:34.309 --> 00:18:36.269
every single day, then I'll be perfect and nothing
00:18:36.269 --> 00:18:39.490
bad or ever happened to me. Yeah. Then, you know,
00:18:39.769 --> 00:18:41.910
but we keep going down this rabbit hole and it's
00:18:41.910 --> 00:18:43.450
so many of the clients that I'm working with
00:18:43.450 --> 00:18:46.509
as well, where it's just, I've done this for
00:18:46.509 --> 00:18:50.019
so long. the symptoms just get worse. Maybe there's
00:18:50.019 --> 00:18:52.799
a period of time where there's a placebo effect
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:55.559
and we got a new thing and we feel good, we feel
00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:59.759
secure, safe for a week or two and then we go
00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:02.720
right back into that shame blame cycle and now
00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:05.059
we're looking for the next thing. So if that
00:19:05.059 --> 00:19:07.700
sounds like you, you're in the right place and
00:19:07.700 --> 00:19:10.660
both Valerie and I both went through this process
00:19:10.660 --> 00:19:14.940
of exhausting the health world. But the health
00:19:14.940 --> 00:19:18.910
world What would chew you up and spit you out
00:19:18.910 --> 00:19:22.089
if you don't learn about the nervous system about
00:19:22.089 --> 00:19:24.849
regulation about? Attachment because we're just
00:19:24.849 --> 00:19:27.670
gonna keep doing and pushing harder not paying
00:19:27.670 --> 00:19:30.869
attention to our body and looking for the answers
00:19:30.869 --> 00:19:34.809
out here and Yeah, that's like chasing your own
00:19:34.809 --> 00:19:38.410
tail. It's exhausting Yes, and that is a great
00:19:38.410 --> 00:19:41.690
point that I want to circle back to we're looking
00:19:41.690 --> 00:19:44.740
externally Right? We're looking externally for
00:19:44.740 --> 00:19:47.180
the answers to our health problems. We're looking
00:19:47.180 --> 00:19:50.759
to our partner to soothe us. We're looking for
00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:55.759
the amount of our 100 grand figure or six figure
00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:58.700
year to make us feel safe and secure and stable.
00:19:59.059 --> 00:20:01.839
Right? Because an anxious attachment learns I
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:04.839
don't have safety internally. The only way I
00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:07.960
can get it is externally and like you're saying,
00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:11.500
controlling the external. And so a lot of clients
00:20:11.500 --> 00:20:14.440
come to me because they're also chronically struggling
00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:17.680
with anxiety in their relationships. Like a client
00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:21.240
came to me struggling with anxiety because who
00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:23.799
is dating a partner for a few years and she was
00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:26.079
like, I'm so anxious. All my friends are getting
00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:28.980
married. All my friends are having babies and
00:20:28.980 --> 00:20:32.960
I I'm just waiting for him to step up and marry
00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:35.769
me and then I'm going to feel safe. And what
00:20:35.769 --> 00:20:38.390
did that do? All that did is put strain on the
00:20:38.390 --> 00:20:41.750
relationship, put stress on her and her partner
00:20:41.750 --> 00:20:44.450
because we're trying to control the external
00:20:44.450 --> 00:20:47.950
because that's all we've learned. People also
00:20:47.950 --> 00:20:51.029
shame people for trying to control. But if you've
00:20:51.029 --> 00:20:54.230
never had internal safety, of course, we're going
00:20:54.230 --> 00:20:58.670
to try and cultivate that externally. Like, of
00:20:58.670 --> 00:21:01.809
course, we're going to do that. So not shaming
00:21:01.809 --> 00:21:06.329
yourself. for also experiencing that and going
00:21:06.329 --> 00:21:10.109
back to the thought of you're doing all the right
00:21:10.109 --> 00:21:13.589
things a lot of people are just unaware that
00:21:13.589 --> 00:21:16.390
trauma is physiological meaning it's stored in
00:21:16.390 --> 00:21:21.089
our body so we can know logically hey my partner
00:21:21.089 --> 00:21:24.339
is on a business trip or You know, I'm going
00:21:24.339 --> 00:21:26.940
to be OK whether or not my partner marries me.
00:21:27.339 --> 00:21:29.680
But try telling that to your body when he goes
00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:32.079
on a business trip and you're you're freaking
00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:34.240
out inside thinking he's going to find another
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:38.000
woman who's more interesting, more smart, prettier,
00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:40.900
all the stories that your mind is telling you
00:21:40.900 --> 00:21:43.099
to reaffirm this belief that you're not good
00:21:43.099 --> 00:21:45.640
enough. So, of course, you're going to feel anxious.
00:21:45.700 --> 00:21:49.079
Of course, you're going to feel on edge. And
00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:54.329
so when we. put that back on ourselves of pointing
00:21:54.329 --> 00:21:58.130
back to healing our anxious attachment from the
00:21:58.130 --> 00:22:00.829
root of it. When we learn, hey, this is physiological,
00:22:01.130 --> 00:22:03.390
no amount of insight, no one are talking about
00:22:03.390 --> 00:22:09.690
our anxiety or trauma is going to stop a panic
00:22:09.690 --> 00:22:12.269
attack. You can know all the insight in the world
00:22:12.269 --> 00:22:14.690
and know why you do this, this and this, but
00:22:14.690 --> 00:22:16.690
your nervous system still thinks you're being
00:22:16.990 --> 00:22:20.630
chased by a tiger and so with the work I do with
00:22:20.630 --> 00:22:24.569
clients is we work with the body sensations and
00:22:24.569 --> 00:22:27.009
we work with the emotions that are stored in
00:22:27.009 --> 00:22:29.750
the body because your anxious attachment style
00:22:29.750 --> 00:22:33.509
is just a symptom of the dysregulation in your
00:22:33.509 --> 00:22:37.730
body. Your thoughts are a symptom of your fight
00:22:37.730 --> 00:22:41.109
or flight state. When we're anxious, when our
00:22:41.109 --> 00:22:43.450
nervous system is in that fight or flight response,
00:22:43.910 --> 00:22:46.089
we're going to go to the worst case scenarios.
00:22:46.369 --> 00:22:49.269
We're going to catastrophize. We're going to
00:22:49.269 --> 00:22:53.150
ruminate. And so when we work with the body,
00:22:53.869 --> 00:22:57.369
clients will tell me I finally feel a sense of
00:22:57.369 --> 00:23:01.029
relief in my body. I finally feel safe. I feel
00:23:01.029 --> 00:23:04.109
like I can surrender. I feel like I can let go.
00:23:04.349 --> 00:23:07.710
But we cannot do that until the body feels safe.
00:23:07.869 --> 00:23:11.009
And as we work with the body semantically and
00:23:11.009 --> 00:23:13.890
help the body feel safe on a physiological and
00:23:13.890 --> 00:23:17.910
somatic level, that's when the thoughts naturally
00:23:17.910 --> 00:23:23.009
begin to feel positive. And that's when the trauma
00:23:23.009 --> 00:23:26.440
cycle loop ends. This is when our body tells
00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:30.519
us I am safe now and I'm not living in the past
00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:34.539
anymore. I think that's some some place I want
00:23:34.539 --> 00:23:37.380
to pick a little bookmark and go into safety
00:23:37.380 --> 00:23:40.140
because I've got this question myself and think
00:23:40.140 --> 00:23:43.079
about it a lot like how if we've never had that
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:45.099
so if you're someone that's listening and you're
00:23:45.099 --> 00:23:47.720
like oh yeah that's me I've never experienced
00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:50.339
safety in my life and it takes a while to notice
00:23:50.339 --> 00:23:53.839
that. I didn't recognize that until a year or
00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:56.059
two even work, but it's a question that I get
00:23:56.059 --> 00:23:58.480
all the time. Where do you start with folks that
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:02.000
have never learned safety? Yeah, that is a lot
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:05.000
of folks, especially with the world's going on
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:07.559
right now externally, right? And if you've had
00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:11.500
CBTSD or chronic stress or trauma, of course
00:24:11.500 --> 00:24:13.839
you would feel like the world is on fire. I'm
00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:18.500
on fire, et cetera. What we don't want to start
00:24:18.500 --> 00:24:21.880
with and where a lot of people go wrong with
00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:27.460
these types of courses on anxiety or trauma is
00:24:27.460 --> 00:24:30.079
people think, OK, I should do this exercise and
00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:32.559
I should feel 100 % calm. But like you said,
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:34.980
if we've been in survival mode our entire life,
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:37.339
that's going to feel like too much of a swing
00:24:37.339 --> 00:24:39.359
to the other side. That's going to feel unsafe.
00:24:39.859 --> 00:24:43.599
So a process that I work with clients is something
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:47.230
called titration. So when we're doing somatic
00:24:47.230 --> 00:24:50.390
work, we don't want to go straight into the trauma
00:24:50.390 --> 00:24:52.730
right away necessarily or straight into that
00:24:52.730 --> 00:24:55.970
activation or triggering thought or memory or
00:24:55.970 --> 00:24:58.750
sensation We want to help the body feel even
00:24:58.750 --> 00:25:02.849
1 % more safe. So in the first call I have with
00:25:02.849 --> 00:25:06.710
clients is and something you can do to start
00:25:06.710 --> 00:25:10.420
orienting yourself to safety is We're not starting
00:25:10.420 --> 00:25:12.940
with, okay, I'm at a 10 out of 10 on anxiety.
00:25:13.019 --> 00:25:15.200
I'm going to be at a zero out of 10 after this
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:17.920
exercise. We want to get to, okay, what is something
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:21.140
that's going to help me feel 1 % more safe? So
00:25:21.140 --> 00:25:24.059
one of the modalities I'm trained in is brain
00:25:24.059 --> 00:25:29.039
spotting. It is a body -based psychotherapy that
00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:34.640
uses the visual field to help process different
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:39.289
trauma through the body. something that we can
00:25:39.289 --> 00:25:43.329
do and start with is even just taking a body
00:25:43.329 --> 00:25:46.670
scan here for a moment, noticing where in my
00:25:46.670 --> 00:25:51.690
body do I feel even 1 % more safe, grounded or
00:25:51.690 --> 00:25:57.339
even neutral. Perfect, perfect. So using that
00:25:57.339 --> 00:26:00.539
as an example, or a lot of my clients say like
00:26:00.539 --> 00:26:04.099
they feel their feet grounded on the floor. Okay,
00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:06.380
feeling your butt or feeling your feet grounded
00:26:06.380 --> 00:26:10.319
on the floor, noticing that groundedness. And
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:13.339
then with brain spotting, I want you to look
00:26:13.339 --> 00:26:17.619
around the room. Finding the spot that amplifies
00:26:17.619 --> 00:26:21.319
this neutrality, like, you know, if even like
00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:24.400
you're right pinky toe, that feels neutral, right?
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:27.359
Looking around the room, finding a spot that
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:30.440
amplifies this feeling of calm or groundedness.
00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:33.259
So we're pairing those sensations of calm or
00:26:33.259 --> 00:26:35.839
neutrality with the spot in our visual field.
00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:39.609
And then I'll even invite clients to... They
00:26:39.609 --> 00:26:41.750
could do this with their eyes open or closed.
00:26:41.869 --> 00:26:44.289
I invite them to keep them open, especially if
00:26:44.289 --> 00:26:46.390
you've never experienced safety or you're feeling
00:26:46.390 --> 00:26:51.569
hyper vigilant. Looking at the spot and so thinking
00:26:51.569 --> 00:26:57.950
of a time or place that you felt safe or at peace
00:26:57.950 --> 00:27:01.230
or you could even imagine you were at peace,
00:27:01.609 --> 00:27:04.890
right? A lot of clients tell me, you know, it's
00:27:04.890 --> 00:27:08.519
in my garden or it's at the beach. or it's in
00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:12.460
the mountains, right? Or even thinking of a safe
00:27:12.460 --> 00:27:15.839
person or a safe animal, right? Maybe that's
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:18.339
your cat, maybe that's your dog, maybe that's
00:27:18.339 --> 00:27:21.740
your nephew that you babysit, right? And then
00:27:21.740 --> 00:27:25.059
it's like, okay, I'm thinking about how calm
00:27:25.059 --> 00:27:27.519
and happy and joyful I am when I'm babysitting
00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:31.380
my nephew. I feel that still in my feet, that
00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:34.859
groundedness, and I start to feel that relaxation
00:27:34.859 --> 00:27:37.440
in my chest. And then we're focusing on that.
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:40.779
Right? So we just need to be there for even one
00:27:40.779 --> 00:27:43.539
minute, a few minutes. And then this is what
00:27:43.539 --> 00:27:47.759
starts to help our body to feel safe and grounded.
00:27:48.579 --> 00:27:50.940
Another thing that I find really, really helpful
00:27:50.940 --> 00:27:54.339
is if you've experienced chronic stress or trauma,
00:27:54.750 --> 00:27:56.849
What ends up happening is we have something called
00:27:56.849 --> 00:28:00.109
our vagus nerve. And our vagus nerve controls
00:28:00.109 --> 00:28:02.349
whether or not our fight or flight system gets
00:28:02.349 --> 00:28:05.089
turned on. But when we've experienced chronic
00:28:05.089 --> 00:28:08.269
stress or trauma, it stays stuck on. So this
00:28:08.269 --> 00:28:11.390
could look like chronic anxiety and hypervigilance.
00:28:11.809 --> 00:28:15.410
So what we want to do is we want to... start
00:28:15.410 --> 00:28:18.470
to stimulate our vagus nerve with vagus toning
00:28:18.470 --> 00:28:21.089
exercises. And these are different exercises
00:28:21.089 --> 00:28:25.849
that I teach my clients and doing that consistently,
00:28:25.849 --> 00:28:29.490
not just when you're triggered because you don't
00:28:29.490 --> 00:28:33.450
want to just do tools when you're triggered because
00:28:33.450 --> 00:28:38.230
then it's like using the metaphor of if you're
00:28:38.230 --> 00:28:41.150
just using tools when you're triggered, that's
00:28:41.150 --> 00:28:44.259
like. I'm just learning how to swim when I'm
00:28:44.259 --> 00:28:46.200
drowning. We're gonna teach you. Let me stop
00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:49.279
you right there. Yeah. In the beginning, I hear
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:51.500
you and I'm with you. I just want to specify
00:28:51.500 --> 00:28:53.960
for everybody, in the beginning, what if someone
00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:56.980
is triggered all the time? Is it just, let me
00:28:56.980 --> 00:29:00.279
find that 1 % and just keep connecting to that.
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:03.319
So titrating what it feels like to feel something
00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:06.849
that feels good. Yes. So we want to start with
00:29:06.849 --> 00:29:09.690
that, right? Wearing your body, even amidst that
00:29:09.690 --> 00:29:11.930
you're triggered, right? You're really fucking
00:29:11.930 --> 00:29:13.630
triggered right now by your partner, or you're
00:29:13.630 --> 00:29:15.730
really triggered by your health flare, or you're
00:29:15.730 --> 00:29:19.069
really triggered by your company and how it's
00:29:19.069 --> 00:29:22.670
going. OK, we can notice that trigger and activation
00:29:22.670 --> 00:29:25.710
in your body. That's great. And where is the
00:29:25.710 --> 00:29:28.410
spot in your body that feels 1 % more safe or
00:29:28.410 --> 00:29:32.170
neutral? And focusing on that. And a big thing
00:29:32.170 --> 00:29:36.380
that is important to know, Something that's changed
00:29:36.380 --> 00:29:41.519
my life this year and last year is when something
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:46.400
feels big or really triggers you, that is coming
00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:50.559
from a young part in the past. That is not coming
00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:53.480
from your true adult self who's living in the
00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:56.960
present right now. So when we're reacting to
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:00.150
something that looks disproportionate, to what's
00:30:00.150 --> 00:30:02.069
actually happening that's coming from a young
00:30:02.069 --> 00:30:05.670
part. So what I teach clients is also how to
00:30:05.670 --> 00:30:09.410
unblend from these young parts. So we can then
00:30:09.410 --> 00:30:12.869
start to have some separation from that. So then
00:30:12.869 --> 00:30:17.069
we are making choices and decisions from our
00:30:17.069 --> 00:30:19.710
adult self, and we're able to come back into
00:30:19.710 --> 00:30:23.230
adult self and not stay stuck in our young parts.
00:30:23.829 --> 00:30:26.769
Love it. So in the beginning, it's not about,
00:30:27.089 --> 00:30:30.529
hey, Val, I've got all this, I love the stuff
00:30:30.529 --> 00:30:32.150
you're talking about, the anxious attachment,
00:30:32.329 --> 00:30:34.890
and our hair is on fire all the time. Like, let's
00:30:34.890 --> 00:30:37.109
work on, I know where it happened when I have
00:30:37.109 --> 00:30:39.470
these three or four different traumas that I'd
00:30:39.470 --> 00:30:42.690
like to work on. And we feel like if I, maybe
00:30:42.690 --> 00:30:45.009
we've had a lot of education, I feel like if
00:30:45.009 --> 00:30:48.049
I can work on this list of things, that eventually
00:30:48.049 --> 00:30:50.769
I'm gonna be okay. All right, and instead it's
00:30:50.769 --> 00:30:52.369
like, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, let's come
00:30:52.369 --> 00:30:56.539
on back. Let's work on safety. Let's learn to
00:30:56.539 --> 00:30:59.339
brain spotting. I would call that orienting.
00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:04.599
Um, that is one way. It can help with orienting,
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:06.500
if we're using it in that way that I mentioned,
00:31:06.660 --> 00:31:09.980
but we can also use it to process those stored
00:31:09.980 --> 00:31:12.460
traumas in our body and release them. And I can
00:31:12.460 --> 00:31:14.700
go over that a bit later. Yeah, no, no. Explain
00:31:14.700 --> 00:31:17.039
that. So help me with that. So I understand orienting,
00:31:17.140 --> 00:31:19.059
but the way you're describing brain spotting
00:31:19.059 --> 00:31:21.480
is orienting is one of the modalities that we
00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:25.740
can use as a resource. What else? Yeah, so. Yeah.
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:29.559
So just like we can activate those calming grounded
00:31:29.559 --> 00:31:31.880
states, we call that resourcing. I like to call
00:31:31.880 --> 00:31:36.680
it safe spotting. So the opposite of that is
00:31:36.680 --> 00:31:40.519
looking for that activation spot. So Mitch, would
00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:43.559
you feel comfortable if we just, I don't know,
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:46.319
did something for you on the spot that maybe
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:50.180
something is triggering or causing a bit of anxiety?
00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:53.400
I can kind of show people how it works a little
00:31:53.400 --> 00:31:57.400
bit. Yeah, I'll do it. Yeah. So start by telling
00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:01.720
me something that is causing a bit of anxiety
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:05.579
or is then triggering for you. I mean, I think
00:32:05.579 --> 00:32:09.259
being on an interview and not doing a lot of
00:32:09.259 --> 00:32:11.180
preparation, not seeing each other a long time
00:32:11.180 --> 00:32:13.000
and a little bit of uncertainty of like, where's
00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:17.400
this thing going? As I say that, I can feel like
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:20.759
some heat in my body. Perfect. Where do you notice
00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:27.710
that heat? It's kind of like coming off of me.
00:32:27.750 --> 00:32:31.609
So it's like radiating upper body. OK. Arms,
00:32:31.769 --> 00:32:35.410
maybe a little bit chest, upper arm. OK. Perfect.
00:32:35.809 --> 00:32:39.549
And then how intense would you rate that uncertainty
00:32:39.549 --> 00:32:42.490
feeling in that heat on a scale of 0 to 10? 10
00:32:42.490 --> 00:32:46.529
feeling the most intense. I would say like a
00:32:46.529 --> 00:32:52.359
3, 4, probably 4. Perfect. Perfect. Okay. So
00:32:52.359 --> 00:32:54.940
I want you to start by noticing the heat in your
00:32:54.940 --> 00:32:59.099
body, and I want you to also take a scan of your
00:32:59.099 --> 00:33:01.539
body, and I want you to find a place in your
00:33:01.539 --> 00:33:05.539
body that feels even 1 % more safe, grounded,
00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:09.880
or even neutral. I'm gonna go with the ground,
00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:14.140
my foot on the ground. Perfect. Deep breath,
00:33:14.380 --> 00:33:18.059
as soon as I anchor into that a little bit. Excellent.
00:33:18.599 --> 00:33:21.160
Excellent. So I'll just invite you to keep noticing
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:24.619
these deep breaths, feeling that grounded feeling
00:33:24.619 --> 00:33:27.380
of your feet being on the floor. And I'll just
00:33:27.380 --> 00:33:29.539
invite you to look from the left to the right
00:33:29.539 --> 00:33:32.700
and just find a spot that amplifies this feeling
00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:39.619
of groundedness. Look out my window. Perfect.
00:33:39.700 --> 00:33:41.900
So what are you noticing in your body as you're
00:33:41.900 --> 00:33:46.700
looking out the window? Expansiveness. Like an
00:33:46.700 --> 00:33:52.730
opening up. With the grounding of the foot sensation,
00:33:52.910 --> 00:33:56.650
it was like a little bit and it was just more
00:33:56.650 --> 00:33:59.730
when I looked out the window. Beautiful. Yeah,
00:33:59.730 --> 00:34:02.849
I noticed your chest opening up a bit more, your
00:34:02.849 --> 00:34:07.029
spine getting a bit more straight here. So I'll
00:34:07.029 --> 00:34:08.630
just invite you to just keep looking out the
00:34:08.630 --> 00:34:12.050
window for about another 10 seconds here. Just
00:34:12.050 --> 00:34:14.489
noticing what sensations come up as you look
00:34:14.489 --> 00:34:24.380
here. I could just notice my breath a little
00:34:24.380 --> 00:34:31.119
bit more. Mm -hmm. Feel a little bit more of
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:35.840
my back body online. Mm -hmm. Feel my butt in
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:39.940
my chair more. I can feel my, just more in my
00:34:39.940 --> 00:34:45.579
body, my pulse. Mm -hmm. Perfect. So just noticing
00:34:45.579 --> 00:34:50.150
that increase in body awareness here. And so
00:34:50.150 --> 00:34:52.230
at any point, we can always come back to this
00:34:52.230 --> 00:34:55.550
spot. So all of us invite you now to just go
00:34:55.550 --> 00:34:58.329
back to that original heat when you thought about
00:34:58.329 --> 00:35:01.269
that uncertainty, thinking about being on the
00:35:01.269 --> 00:35:04.369
interview. What if I haven't planned or seen
00:35:04.369 --> 00:35:07.110
this person in a while, this uncertainty? So
00:35:07.110 --> 00:35:09.610
just connecting back to that heat in your upper
00:35:09.610 --> 00:35:15.130
body here. Yeah, it's way less. I really can't
00:35:15.130 --> 00:35:19.150
find the same heat, but I do notice like a like
00:35:19.150 --> 00:35:24.329
a pulling in, a protective kind of posture. Yeah,
00:35:24.590 --> 00:35:26.989
perfect. So I'll just encourage you to just notice
00:35:26.989 --> 00:35:30.309
that pulling in and I'll just invite you to look
00:35:30.309 --> 00:35:33.289
from the left to the right and find a spot that
00:35:33.289 --> 00:35:38.610
amplifies this feeling. Is that good to look
00:35:38.610 --> 00:36:01.559
out the window again? Um, I've got some little
00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:05.539
notes here. It says like, be you. There's one
00:36:05.539 --> 00:36:10.019
says, I believe in you and that feels good. Okay.
00:36:10.780 --> 00:36:16.719
Yeah. My stomach, uh, settle a little bit. Yeah.
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:19.139
And I'll just encourage you to just find a spot
00:36:19.139 --> 00:36:22.039
that you might notice that heat more and the
00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:42.880
uncertainty more. Maybe looking at my notes a
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:46.619
little bit. Okay. What do you notice when you
00:36:46.619 --> 00:36:48.280
look at your notes? What are you noticing in
00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:54.239
your body here? Contraction. Okay. Where do you
00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:58.139
feel that contraction? Arms. Just kind of want
00:36:58.139 --> 00:37:01.719
to move forward like this. Perfect. So I'll just
00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:04.000
encourage you to just keep looking there at that
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:07.219
spot and just allowing your body to do whatever
00:37:07.219 --> 00:37:09.460
it wants to do if it wants to move forward, if
00:37:09.460 --> 00:37:12.360
it wants to contract, just allowing it to do
00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:16.239
that here. And just notice if any sensations,
00:37:16.780 --> 00:37:20.400
emotions, or memories show up when you look here.
00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:23.940
And you can feel free to share as much or as
00:37:23.940 --> 00:37:32.320
little as feels comfortable for you. Well, it's
00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:35.099
funny what I'm kind of connecting is the thing
00:37:35.099 --> 00:37:42.179
that I Look that I liked is Telling me to be
00:37:42.179 --> 00:37:46.340
myself that it feels like shit when I Overthink
00:37:46.340 --> 00:37:49.699
or prepare or try to be perfect. And when I look
00:37:49.699 --> 00:37:53.139
at my notes it reminds me of that Like trying
00:37:53.139 --> 00:37:59.480
to perform Yeah, just continue being aware Like
00:37:59.480 --> 00:38:01.559
what shows up when you're thinking I have to
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:06.780
perform It feels like I was gonna say shame,
00:38:06.860 --> 00:38:10.480
but it's not shame it's more like like pressure
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:16.260
Mm -hmm Yeah, just continue noticing that we'll
00:38:16.260 --> 00:38:19.539
just be here for about 30 more seconds. Yeah
00:38:19.539 --> 00:38:22.699
Just witness whatever shows up in your body here
00:38:33.190 --> 00:38:37.630
Makes my head hurt Mm -hmm and just noticing
00:38:37.630 --> 00:38:42.250
that tension there Yeah, it's like a it's tight
00:38:42.250 --> 00:38:46.730
in my chest it's And that and it feels like yeah,
00:38:46.829 --> 00:38:50.949
it feels like weight like heavy weight Mm -hmm
00:38:50.949 --> 00:38:58.210
Yeah, just noticing this heaviness You're doing
00:38:58.210 --> 00:39:07.010
a great job You don't have to do anything here.
00:39:08.110 --> 00:39:22.949
Just witnessing. And then if it feels safe, I'll
00:39:22.949 --> 00:39:26.869
just invite you to look back outside at the window.
00:39:30.889 --> 00:39:33.050
And just notice what happens in your body as
00:39:33.050 --> 00:39:39.289
you look here. I can't set back and there's that
00:39:39.289 --> 00:39:52.650
like less tension I took a deep breath I Just
00:39:52.650 --> 00:39:57.190
want to sit back a little bit Beautiful allowing
00:39:57.190 --> 00:40:00.349
your body to just down shifts and re -regulate
00:40:00.349 --> 00:40:04.409
here So we'll just be here for about a minute
00:40:04.409 --> 00:40:20.510
or so Yeah, it seems like some of that activation
00:40:20.510 --> 00:40:24.409
is kind of moving now. Mm -hmm. Yeah, where do
00:40:24.409 --> 00:40:28.949
you notice it moving? I feel my pulse or heart
00:40:28.949 --> 00:40:35.170
rate kind of going up. Mm -hmm. There's like
00:40:35.170 --> 00:40:39.409
a wave. Mm -hmm. Yeah, and just noticing this
00:40:39.409 --> 00:40:46.869
wave with curiosity. Knowing that these sensations
00:40:46.869 --> 00:41:04.809
could not hurt you That deep breath at work my
00:41:04.809 --> 00:41:10.030
vision is opening up more Yeah, and by him saying
00:41:10.030 --> 00:41:13.030
that that my vision is opening up when we are
00:41:13.030 --> 00:41:16.150
in fighter flight our Vision literally becomes
00:41:16.150 --> 00:41:19.750
like tunnel vision and so we begin to see less
00:41:19.750 --> 00:41:22.809
of our peripherals So this is just showing in
00:41:22.809 --> 00:41:26.429
real time how his nervous system is we regulating
00:41:29.670 --> 00:41:32.670
and you can stay exactly as you are, I'll just
00:41:32.670 --> 00:41:34.929
invite you now, this might sound like a really
00:41:34.929 --> 00:41:37.170
weird request, I'm just gonna invite you to bring
00:41:37.170 --> 00:41:39.750
your finger about three to six inches in front
00:41:39.750 --> 00:41:44.170
of your face. Yeah, yeah, and I want you to just
00:41:44.170 --> 00:41:47.489
start by looking at your fingertip for about
00:41:47.489 --> 00:41:57.030
10 seconds here. And then now I want you to look
00:41:57.030 --> 00:41:59.429
outside your window, looking at the peripheral.
00:42:00.150 --> 00:42:04.170
And you can keep your finger there. So just looking
00:42:04.170 --> 00:42:08.130
through the window, looking through the fingertip.
00:42:15.769 --> 00:42:28.900
And now looking back at your fingertip. And now
00:42:28.900 --> 00:42:33.559
switching back to looking at through your fingertips
00:42:33.559 --> 00:42:46.440
through the window. Some deep breaths. Perfect.
00:42:46.519 --> 00:42:49.119
And just one last time, looking back at your
00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:59.719
fingertips for about 10 seconds. Perfect. And
00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:02.059
I'll just invite you to just bring your fingertip
00:43:02.059 --> 00:43:06.019
down. And then just looking around the room,
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:08.960
even just noticing one thing you didn't notice
00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:21.900
before. I say I went to the other side of the
00:43:21.900 --> 00:43:25.940
room, so I noticed that. Sad that I was more
00:43:25.940 --> 00:43:28.300
focused over here when we were doing and originally
00:43:28.300 --> 00:43:32.139
in the night I'm kind of coming over here more
00:43:32.139 --> 00:43:40.699
and want to play I guess Perfect yeah now when
00:43:40.699 --> 00:43:45.420
we think back to being on an interview thinking
00:43:45.420 --> 00:43:49.420
of that uncertainty and Thinking about okay that
00:43:49.420 --> 00:43:52.500
heat was in my upper body and your chest What
00:43:52.500 --> 00:43:55.360
are you noticing in your body now after we did
00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:59.519
that? I feel the cool air coming in from the
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:04.599
side. Beautiful. Yeah. Okay. So you don't have
00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:10.000
heat anymore. Okay. So as I talk about that uncertainty,
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:14.460
how intensely would you rate that heat now on
00:44:14.460 --> 00:44:17.099
a scale of zero to 10, 10 being the most intense?
00:44:19.059 --> 00:44:20.980
Oh, I mean, it's zero. There's nothing there.
00:44:21.659 --> 00:44:26.940
Okay, perfect. So that shows the power of somatics
00:44:26.940 --> 00:44:31.260
and somatic therapy and so Like a really quick
00:44:31.260 --> 00:44:35.320
explanation So with the finger you can do this
00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:38.440
at any moment if you're listening You know, if
00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:41.780
you're really really anxious Your anxiety is
00:44:41.780 --> 00:44:45.380
really high or if you're like a therapist or
00:44:45.380 --> 00:44:47.980
clinician or coach listening to this, you can
00:44:47.980 --> 00:44:50.880
utilize that with clients. Like if you're running
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:53.900
out of time in a session and the client still
00:44:53.900 --> 00:44:56.440
might be pretty activated and we want to bring
00:44:56.440 --> 00:44:59.199
them down into their window of tolerance, that's
00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:01.280
something that you can utilize. This has been
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:04.519
helpful for panic attacks. It is a term called
00:45:04.519 --> 00:45:09.690
virgins. And so it's incredibly helpful for anxiety
00:45:09.690 --> 00:45:12.449
and for panic and just re -regulating the system.
00:45:12.849 --> 00:45:16.469
In practice, I would go back and forth between
00:45:16.469 --> 00:45:19.050
that activation spot, feeling the heat, feeling
00:45:19.050 --> 00:45:22.769
that uncertainty, and then also going back and
00:45:22.769 --> 00:45:25.809
forth to that safe spot. And for Mix, that was
00:45:25.809 --> 00:45:29.010
the window. So typically, I would be processing
00:45:29.010 --> 00:45:31.710
with clients for about 30 to 45 minutes in a
00:45:31.710 --> 00:45:34.550
brainstorming session. So it would be like, you
00:45:34.550 --> 00:45:38.800
know, I would... encourage them to look at that
00:45:38.800 --> 00:45:42.079
activation spot where they feel that uncertainty
00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:44.880
or heat the most. Staying with that and if they
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:47.719
need at any point to look out the window if it
00:45:47.719 --> 00:45:50.219
feels too much with that heat then we look at
00:45:50.219 --> 00:45:52.619
the window or we find that or we look at that
00:45:52.619 --> 00:45:55.960
safe spot and then we go back and forth listening
00:45:55.960 --> 00:45:59.400
to their nervous systems. Rhythm and so you could
00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:02.340
see how you know Mitch and I did not go into
00:46:02.340 --> 00:46:06.500
his trauma history any memories necessarily it
00:46:06.500 --> 00:46:10.639
was just being with the sensations and then that
00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:13.760
activation went from a four to a zero so that
00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:17.840
shows Physiologically how much the nervous system
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:21.980
can shift and change without talking at all I
00:46:21.980 --> 00:46:24.699
like I like you say that because I feel like
00:46:24.699 --> 00:46:26.539
a lot of people when they're coming into this
00:46:26.539 --> 00:46:29.460
work they're nervous like I don't want to talk
00:46:29.460 --> 00:46:33.099
about the past and they may have learned through
00:46:33.099 --> 00:46:34.820
working with different therapists that it doesn't
00:46:34.820 --> 00:46:39.500
feel good to go over and over and over it. Exactly
00:46:39.500 --> 00:46:42.519
because when we're talking about our anxiety
00:46:42.519 --> 00:46:46.719
or we're talking about our trauma our body can't
00:46:46.719 --> 00:46:49.699
differentiate the past versus the present. So
00:46:49.699 --> 00:46:51.659
if you're talking about your anxiety or trauma,
00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:54.480
it's actually reliving it. And so you're actually
00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:57.380
re -traumatizing your body by talking about it.
00:46:57.599 --> 00:46:59.739
And so with brain spotting or somatic therapy,
00:47:00.099 --> 00:47:03.780
we're actually closing that loop because those
00:47:03.780 --> 00:47:06.900
sensations are happening. That racing heart,
00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:10.539
that heat in the upper body, we're stopping.
00:47:10.860 --> 00:47:13.800
That loop and going back to what you mentioned
00:47:13.800 --> 00:47:16.860
earlier is, you know, when we're talking about
00:47:16.860 --> 00:47:20.309
building our capacity. And as we're becoming
00:47:20.309 --> 00:47:23.269
more sexually attached or healing, that doesn't
00:47:23.269 --> 00:47:26.030
mean that we're never activated, triggered, or
00:47:26.030 --> 00:47:29.110
anxious. It might just be that maybe we're triggered
00:47:29.110 --> 00:47:32.050
a little bit less or we're able to go back into
00:47:32.050 --> 00:47:35.289
our adult body and unblend from a young part
00:47:35.289 --> 00:47:40.010
much quicker. We're able to come back much quicker.
00:47:40.150 --> 00:47:42.809
We're able to pause instead of react. We're able
00:47:42.809 --> 00:47:47.230
to... feel a bit less anxious. We're able to
00:47:47.230 --> 00:47:50.929
see the bigger picture. We're able to, you know,
00:47:50.989 --> 00:47:54.730
even just be with the sensations and that activation
00:47:54.730 --> 00:47:58.050
or heat for much longer. And that's showing that,
00:47:58.070 --> 00:48:01.429
you know, we're not as overwhelmed by our sensations
00:48:01.429 --> 00:48:06.050
or anxiety. Yeah, totally. And for me, what I've
00:48:06.050 --> 00:48:08.489
noticed over the years is that if I am, if I'm
00:48:08.489 --> 00:48:12.050
avoiding something like a sensation or a feeling
00:48:12.050 --> 00:48:15.579
in my body, and I'm trying to fix it, I'm trying
00:48:15.579 --> 00:48:20.420
to figure it out even. All the old ways that
00:48:20.420 --> 00:48:26.019
I used to associate to my body, that felt like
00:48:26.019 --> 00:48:29.480
crap. That created so much of the thing that
00:48:29.480 --> 00:48:33.719
I was trying to get rid of. And it's so interesting,
00:48:33.820 --> 00:48:36.219
it feels almost like a magic trick, for those
00:48:36.219 --> 00:48:38.340
of us that have had our hair on fire for so many
00:48:38.340 --> 00:48:41.480
years, that you're telling me I can be with this
00:48:41.480 --> 00:48:44.739
sensation for two or three minutes, and then
00:48:44.739 --> 00:48:49.500
I can come down and out of it and help the sensation
00:48:49.500 --> 00:48:53.980
that nothing else could. And it sounds like what
00:48:53.980 --> 00:48:58.000
you're describing is also, hey, you're not going
00:48:58.000 --> 00:48:59.780
to have to come in and talk about your past.
00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:02.340
You're also not going to go into the deep end
00:49:02.340 --> 00:49:06.579
of this activation, this anxiety that we're calling
00:49:06.579 --> 00:49:10.099
it right away. And if that's the case, that's
00:49:10.099 --> 00:49:13.460
showing us how much safety we had. how much capacity
00:49:13.460 --> 00:49:16.719
we have and we're gonna build capacity with the
00:49:16.719 --> 00:49:19.800
resource so that eventually through repetition,
00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:23.019
through safety, through choice, through allowing
00:49:23.019 --> 00:49:26.500
and being with, we build up the capacity to see
00:49:26.500 --> 00:49:30.480
it, to uncouple, unblend. That sensation was
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:33.260
something that's a danger and it almost becomes
00:49:33.260 --> 00:49:38.360
like wisdom, like no, you want this. You want
00:49:38.360 --> 00:49:41.679
this feedback from your body because it tells
00:49:41.679 --> 00:49:44.260
us what is safe and what is not safe. But if
00:49:44.260 --> 00:49:47.679
we've never learned that, we got to go slow,
00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:51.059
do little bits at a time. And eventually we can
00:49:51.059 --> 00:49:53.079
get to that place of safety and we can trust
00:49:53.079 --> 00:49:56.639
ourselves with and without the resource and with
00:49:56.639 --> 00:50:01.300
and without whatever environment we're in. Absolutely.
00:50:01.719 --> 00:50:04.239
You described it perfectly. And when we're being
00:50:04.239 --> 00:50:07.440
with that safe spot, like I call it, like for
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:09.840
Mitch's example with the window, we're teaching
00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:12.980
his body, we're teaching your body that these
00:50:12.980 --> 00:50:15.699
sensations are safe to be with because trauma
00:50:15.699 --> 00:50:17.980
is defined as something that's too much, too
00:50:17.980 --> 00:50:21.039
overwhelming, too fast. So when we're bringing
00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:23.340
in the safe spot or we're bringing in that resource,
00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:27.619
this gives us back that agency, that trust, that
00:50:27.619 --> 00:50:30.079
we're not stuck in this ceiling. It helps us
00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:33.420
to build capacity to be with these sensations
00:50:33.420 --> 00:50:36.239
and emotions and yeah exactly anything that we're
00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:38.760
avoiding it's just showing that our nervous system
00:50:38.760 --> 00:50:42.860
in the past didn't feel safe with it and what
00:50:42.860 --> 00:50:46.500
we resist persists and so as we continue doing
00:50:46.500 --> 00:50:49.960
this work you will start to begin to build your
00:50:49.960 --> 00:50:52.940
capacity so that you're avoiding certain things
00:50:52.940 --> 00:50:56.820
less and not to judge those parts of you that
00:50:56.820 --> 00:51:00.300
are avoiding it because clearly It feels too
00:51:00.300 --> 00:51:02.940
much for this young part of you. And it was too
00:51:02.940 --> 00:51:07.320
much for you at that age. Yeah, it just seems
00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:09.059
like, like you said earlier, something you said
00:51:09.059 --> 00:51:11.320
that stuck out, because I heard this last week
00:51:11.320 --> 00:51:13.599
from a friend that was talking to me about attachment.
00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:16.699
They were like, you know, that is everywhere.
00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:19.719
It's in everything that we do. And you've given
00:51:19.719 --> 00:51:22.119
us some good examples. You went over avoiding
00:51:22.119 --> 00:51:26.019
anxious back in the past, but early in the conversation.
00:51:26.739 --> 00:51:29.519
But I'm wondering if someone is hearing this
00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:31.800
conversation like oh man this sounds like me
00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:34.820
what are what are some things that they can look
00:51:34.820 --> 00:51:39.199
out for maybe we've already said it but what
00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:42.760
things can they what guidance would you give
00:51:42.760 --> 00:51:45.400
to someone that is like thinking maybe I'm anxious
00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:48.719
maybe I'm avoidant and are they other attachment
00:51:48.719 --> 00:51:51.880
styles or that the two main ones Yeah, that is
00:51:51.880 --> 00:51:54.239
a great question. So starting with different
00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:56.639
attachment styles, so there's four. So there's
00:51:56.639 --> 00:51:59.019
secure attachment, which is what we're all kind
00:51:59.019 --> 00:52:02.239
of looking toward. Then there's that avoidant
00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:05.920
attachment, anxious attachment, and then disorganized
00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:09.199
attachment. So disorganized attachment is kind
00:52:09.199 --> 00:52:13.300
of like a mix of anxious and avoidant. So this
00:52:13.300 --> 00:52:18.039
can look like longing for closeness. but also
00:52:18.039 --> 00:52:22.119
it feels unsafe or we want to sabotage or pull
00:52:22.119 --> 00:52:24.780
away. This is a lot of the time where those push
00:52:24.780 --> 00:52:29.420
-pull behaviors can come from. If you had a parent
00:52:29.420 --> 00:52:32.840
that maybe was an alcoholic or a narcissist,
00:52:33.780 --> 00:52:35.880
maybe you were a parentified child, you had to
00:52:35.880 --> 00:52:39.730
be a therapist for your parent, etc. What you
00:52:39.730 --> 00:52:43.610
learned is that I am dependent on my caregiver
00:52:43.610 --> 00:52:46.289
for my survival, but they're also the person
00:52:46.289 --> 00:52:48.750
that I fear the most because maybe they physically
00:52:48.750 --> 00:52:51.769
harm me or emotionally harm me or they begin
00:52:51.769 --> 00:52:54.670
to become violent when they're drunk, et cetera.
00:52:55.329 --> 00:52:59.010
It's like then our nervous system couples connection
00:52:59.010 --> 00:53:03.409
with threat and danger, but also our nervous
00:53:03.409 --> 00:53:05.769
system is wired for connection so it also longs
00:53:05.769 --> 00:53:08.889
for it at the same time so it begins to create
00:53:08.889 --> 00:53:13.250
this push -pull dynamic which can make it create
00:53:13.250 --> 00:53:15.909
a lot of self -sabotaging behaviors where you
00:53:15.909 --> 00:53:19.110
can have a safe partner, but what can end up
00:53:19.110 --> 00:53:21.829
happening is you are fault -finding, you will
00:53:21.829 --> 00:53:26.130
see flaws, you will push away, you will ghost
00:53:26.130 --> 00:53:29.989
because it feels too dangerous unless you work
00:53:29.989 --> 00:53:34.380
with those protective parts. Yeah, and then that
00:53:34.380 --> 00:53:37.800
is those four main, those are those four attachment
00:53:37.800 --> 00:53:40.920
styles. And then really what I would start with
00:53:40.920 --> 00:53:43.019
going back to kind of what we said at the beginning
00:53:43.019 --> 00:53:46.900
is no matter what your attachment style is, we
00:53:46.900 --> 00:53:51.099
want to build internal safety because when we've
00:53:51.099 --> 00:53:53.239
been in survival mode and our nervous system
00:53:53.239 --> 00:53:56.500
is wired for chaos. So then what happens as we
00:53:56.500 --> 00:53:59.880
go into our dating situations or even in our
00:53:59.880 --> 00:54:03.679
company or in our jobs and we're recreating those
00:54:03.679 --> 00:54:06.000
things scenarios in childhood where maybe your
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:08.980
boss is completely unpredictable. Maybe your
00:54:08.980 --> 00:54:12.880
business is entirely unpredictable. Maybe your
00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:15.400
partner is incredibly unpredictable and they
00:54:15.400 --> 00:54:19.360
cause a lot of chaos for you. So what we want
00:54:19.360 --> 00:54:23.400
to do is by us regulating our nervous system,
00:54:23.739 --> 00:54:26.280
stimulating our vagus nerve, building capacity
00:54:26.280 --> 00:54:29.559
to be with our sensations and emotions. This
00:54:29.559 --> 00:54:32.820
helps to stabilize that baseline. So now because
00:54:32.820 --> 00:54:36.099
my nervous system is more regulated and I'm finding
00:54:36.099 --> 00:54:41.460
safety within myself, now I'm looking for safety
00:54:41.460 --> 00:54:44.039
in the same way. I'm looking for that stability.
00:54:44.219 --> 00:54:49.300
I'm not comfortable with instability or inconsistency
00:54:49.300 --> 00:54:54.300
or relations that are not mutual or loving. So
00:54:54.300 --> 00:54:56.420
of course, if I'm giving that safety internally,
00:54:56.420 --> 00:55:00.039
I'm not going to chase that chaos externally.
00:55:00.380 --> 00:55:02.800
Another thing that we didn't get to mention is
00:55:02.800 --> 00:55:05.719
something called adult self anchoring. So we
00:55:05.719 --> 00:55:09.219
talked a lot about on this podcast about becoming
00:55:09.219 --> 00:55:12.079
secure within, but when we've never had a parent
00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:15.300
or parents who were safe, who were emotionally
00:55:15.300 --> 00:55:19.369
available, we are missing that internal parent
00:55:19.369 --> 00:55:21.809
and we start to feel when we are triggered, we
00:55:21.809 --> 00:55:25.389
start to feel small, we start to feel anxious,
00:55:25.630 --> 00:55:28.610
we start to feel that we are not capable. So
00:55:28.610 --> 00:55:31.530
what I have clients do and what I invite clients
00:55:31.530 --> 00:55:36.829
to do is start to do thematic exercises that
00:55:36.829 --> 00:55:40.110
in different posture shifts that physiologically
00:55:40.489 --> 00:55:43.230
Change our nervous system state. So even like
00:55:43.230 --> 00:55:46.489
with Mitch he was contracting and bringing in
00:55:46.489 --> 00:55:50.809
pulling in forward when we are in shame or when
00:55:50.809 --> 00:55:54.090
we're in younger parts our Posture can reflect
00:55:54.090 --> 00:55:57.969
that so when we're straightening our spine We
00:55:57.969 --> 00:56:00.389
naturally will feel more confident like we can
00:56:00.389 --> 00:56:04.289
take up space and I will invite clients You know,
00:56:04.369 --> 00:56:08.550
what is a memory? That has brought you to a state
00:56:08.550 --> 00:56:11.699
of feeling proud or capable. This could be something
00:56:11.699 --> 00:56:15.780
very small, like you doing a really hard workout
00:56:15.780 --> 00:56:17.900
at the gym that made you feel really proud and
00:56:17.900 --> 00:56:20.860
capable. Maybe that's you taking care of your
00:56:20.860 --> 00:56:23.900
children. Maybe that's doing a podcast like this
00:56:23.900 --> 00:56:31.219
one. Maybe that's hitting a certain quota, your
00:56:31.219 --> 00:56:34.039
sales company, whatever that is that's made you
00:56:34.039 --> 00:56:36.619
feel proud or capable. And a lot of traumatized
00:56:36.619 --> 00:56:38.679
people, they might not have ever had a time where
00:56:38.679 --> 00:56:41.559
they feel proud or capable. So I'll then invite
00:56:41.559 --> 00:56:46.199
them to either imagine the steadiness from a
00:56:46.199 --> 00:56:51.760
tree or a mountain. And so by us, imagining that
00:56:51.760 --> 00:56:54.659
okay now I'm feeling okay what sensations are
00:56:54.659 --> 00:56:57.179
you noticing in your body when you bring up this
00:56:57.179 --> 00:56:59.639
calm or proud memory or when you think about
00:56:59.639 --> 00:57:02.960
this tree or this mountain you're feeling the
00:57:02.960 --> 00:57:05.039
steadiness you're feeling the capability you're
00:57:05.039 --> 00:57:07.820
feeling the groundedness when you imagine this
00:57:07.820 --> 00:57:10.699
memory or thinking of the tree or mountain and
00:57:10.699 --> 00:57:13.940
then it's realizing hey I am NOT separate from
00:57:13.940 --> 00:57:16.860
this mountain tree or memory I'm feeling it right
00:57:16.860 --> 00:57:21.360
now in my body And so as we're reactivating this
00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:24.059
memory and these sensations in our body, we are
00:57:24.059 --> 00:57:27.920
learning and replacing that parent. So now we
00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:30.980
are becoming that securely attached parent where
00:57:30.980 --> 00:57:35.480
we're feeling proud and capable. So bringing
00:57:35.480 --> 00:57:39.719
that internal safety with safe spotting and orienting,
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:42.639
doing vagus toning, doing adult self -anchoring,
00:57:42.760 --> 00:57:46.619
and then somatic therapy, right? So something
00:57:46.619 --> 00:57:49.960
new that I've also been Learning a new certification
00:57:49.960 --> 00:57:53.460
is internal family systems, aka parts work. So
00:57:53.460 --> 00:57:56.679
if you're overthinking, ruminating, fantasy thinking,
00:57:57.340 --> 00:58:02.019
cognitive diffidence, you know, any type of addiction,
00:58:03.019 --> 00:58:05.480
phone scrolling, like scrolling on your phone,
00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:09.360
overworking, over giving, self -doubt, those
00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:13.900
are all protector parts. And so when we can learn
00:58:13.900 --> 00:58:16.800
somatically, what are they protecting you from
00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:20.940
feeling? need are they meeting? And then starting
00:58:20.940 --> 00:58:24.360
to work with that inner child and working with
00:58:24.360 --> 00:58:27.019
ways that we can meet that need and process that
00:58:27.019 --> 00:58:29.860
trauma that created that protector part. That's
00:58:29.860 --> 00:58:31.840
when the protector part will start to loosen.
00:58:32.780 --> 00:58:35.760
So that's really big. And then going into the
00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:39.800
brain spotting or somatic therapy to heal the
00:58:39.800 --> 00:58:42.519
origin of your attachment wounds or chronic anxiety.
00:58:43.139 --> 00:58:46.739
or shut down responses. So that's really how
00:58:46.739 --> 00:58:49.019
I work with clients and how I would recommend
00:58:49.019 --> 00:58:52.699
anyone on their path to becoming more securely
00:58:52.699 --> 00:58:54.820
attached, regardless of what your attachment
00:58:54.820 --> 00:58:58.480
style is. I love that. And it makes so much sense
00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:02.019
that we would want to work on safety and secure
00:59:02.019 --> 00:59:05.059
attachment, like our attachment wounds early
00:59:05.059 --> 00:59:07.400
on. It's going to build safety. It's going to
00:59:07.400 --> 00:59:10.940
build capacity and saving some of the deeper
00:59:10.940 --> 00:59:14.260
work. once that safety is established, because
00:59:14.260 --> 00:59:18.039
if I am trying to go into this shock trauma that
00:59:18.039 --> 00:59:22.860
I have, that's overwhelming on the past, but
00:59:22.860 --> 00:59:25.500
I don't feel safe here to do this sensation.
00:59:25.900 --> 00:59:29.400
When I start going up that ladder of activation
00:59:29.400 --> 00:59:31.920
that we just saw, it takes a couple of minutes.
00:59:32.320 --> 00:59:34.559
That's someone who's been in this for a while.
00:59:34.599 --> 00:59:38.079
If I can't trust that wave of activation, then
00:59:38.079 --> 00:59:41.170
I'm going to... backlog all of that momentum,
00:59:41.530 --> 00:59:45.170
the emotions, the sensations, the activation
00:59:45.170 --> 00:59:47.949
coming and moving. And it sounds like this is
00:59:47.949 --> 00:59:51.909
such a ground zero and I feel like it gets missed
00:59:51.909 --> 00:59:56.469
a lot. You know, we're given exercises and awareness
00:59:56.469 --> 01:00:01.329
that if we're at level zero one, level three,
01:00:02.130 --> 01:00:04.070
we're just, we're not there yet. But because
01:00:04.070 --> 01:00:07.650
we love to learn and teach and We like to go
01:00:07.650 --> 01:00:10.550
into our intellectual mind which can be a trauma
01:00:10.550 --> 01:00:14.750
response as well Yes, it's that is what I was
01:00:14.750 --> 01:00:17.369
doing before I had and that's where I got more
01:00:17.369 --> 01:00:20.889
and more sensitized more so more fixing more
01:00:20.889 --> 01:00:25.949
figuring out sending this hyper vigilance It's
01:00:25.949 --> 01:00:28.630
just flooding my system and saying that the world
01:00:28.630 --> 01:00:31.599
is dangerous but I've learned so much I've read
01:00:31.599 --> 01:00:34.559
the books and I know I've got these traumas but
01:00:34.559 --> 01:00:38.139
I haven't healed these deeper wounds and seen
01:00:38.139 --> 01:00:42.179
these survival patterns and as we start to do
01:00:42.179 --> 01:00:45.039
that kind of like we highlighted with relationship
01:00:45.039 --> 01:00:50.380
is we start to really recognize our own internal
01:00:50.380 --> 01:00:54.579
impulse instead of looking for it for the external
01:00:54.579 --> 01:00:58.150
like this world of this identity that we've created
01:00:58.150 --> 01:01:00.769
around our survival responses. So that's kind
01:01:00.769 --> 01:01:03.389
of a motherfucker, if you will, when you get
01:01:03.389 --> 01:01:06.829
into this work to go, man, reality is not what
01:01:06.829 --> 01:01:09.489
I thought it was. I always say this work is the
01:01:09.489 --> 01:01:12.050
ultimate red pill. You see yourself, you see
01:01:12.050 --> 01:01:15.130
family, you see society, and you go, wait, wait,
01:01:15.190 --> 01:01:18.750
wait a minute. And then when we create safety,
01:01:18.809 --> 01:01:21.170
we start to make our own choices of what this
01:01:21.170 --> 01:01:23.929
is what I'm resonating with. And it can blow
01:01:23.929 --> 01:01:26.829
this whole situation up, too. And that's kind
01:01:26.829 --> 01:01:29.449
of what we want. I mean, it's kind of what...
01:01:29.449 --> 01:01:34.230
Yes. Yes. And that is some hard pills to swallow
01:01:34.230 --> 01:01:38.070
and witness. When you're like, holy shit, my
01:01:38.070 --> 01:01:41.269
personality is a collection of trauma responses
01:01:41.269 --> 01:01:44.250
and protector parts. Like, whoa, that is not
01:01:44.250 --> 01:01:47.389
me. Like, holy hell, what an identity crisis
01:01:47.389 --> 01:01:52.510
it will feel like and how scary and destabilizing
01:01:52.510 --> 01:01:55.400
that feels. And also like going back to what
01:01:55.400 --> 01:01:58.780
you mentioned, a lot of people are misinformed,
01:01:59.079 --> 01:02:01.340
not tele -informed or synetically trained. So
01:02:01.340 --> 01:02:04.019
they don't teach those foundational levels. And
01:02:04.019 --> 01:02:07.199
a lot of clients will come to me saying, I've
01:02:07.199 --> 01:02:09.239
done EMDR and I actually felt worse. Or I've
01:02:09.239 --> 01:02:12.280
done brain spotting and I saw worse because the
01:02:12.280 --> 01:02:15.460
therapist did not teach them how to self -soothe.
01:02:15.559 --> 01:02:18.079
how to feel safe with sensation and how to actually
01:02:18.079 --> 01:02:21.800
feel safe in our body. And so I work with nervous
01:02:21.800 --> 01:02:25.820
system regulation and somatic tools first to
01:02:25.820 --> 01:02:29.380
help us even feel safe to go into that. We need
01:02:29.380 --> 01:02:33.320
to actually feel safe before we can go into those
01:02:33.320 --> 01:02:36.440
wounds and traumas. We need to be able to self
01:02:36.440 --> 01:02:38.420
-soothe when we're in the brain -spotting or
01:02:38.420 --> 01:02:42.420
EMDR sessions or else again, We will be retraumatized
01:02:42.420 --> 01:02:45.460
and something else that I want to mention that's
01:02:45.460 --> 01:02:48.039
really foundational if you're listening to this.
01:02:48.719 --> 01:02:54.320
We experienced trauma and CPTSD and an anxious
01:02:54.320 --> 01:02:57.739
attachment style because we have been wounded
01:02:57.739 --> 01:03:01.170
or traumatized. by our closest caregivers or
01:03:01.170 --> 01:03:04.289
relationships. So if we're traumatized in relationships,
01:03:04.550 --> 01:03:08.510
we also heal in relationships as well. And so
01:03:08.510 --> 01:03:12.409
a lot of people want to skip that step. And even
01:03:12.409 --> 01:03:14.809
I was listening to a meditation yesterday and
01:03:14.809 --> 01:03:19.650
I got like slightly angry because they were saying
01:03:19.650 --> 01:03:23.610
like, even if people leave, I am safe, which
01:03:23.610 --> 01:03:26.349
in fact, like we want to get to that place. But
01:03:26.349 --> 01:03:30.239
if you've never experienced external safety,
01:03:30.400 --> 01:03:34.239
you've never had a safe relationship or friendship
01:03:34.239 --> 01:03:38.219
or whatever, then we have not cultivated that
01:03:38.219 --> 01:03:41.400
internally. Like our self -esteem and our sense
01:03:41.400 --> 01:03:44.380
of safety is determined by our cultural relationships
01:03:44.380 --> 01:03:48.699
as a child. And so what we need to start to do
01:03:48.699 --> 01:03:51.480
is we need to do the internal work to feel internally
01:03:51.480 --> 01:03:54.809
safe and learn how to self -regulate. And we
01:03:54.809 --> 01:03:58.150
need those just confirming experiences with other.
01:03:58.510 --> 01:04:02.050
This can start with a coach, a therapist, a group
01:04:02.050 --> 01:04:05.269
container, somatic practitioner, or a safe friend,
01:04:05.750 --> 01:04:09.110
right? Because we need to have that modeled of
01:04:09.110 --> 01:04:12.840
I can be seen, I can be held. people can come
01:04:12.840 --> 01:04:15.400
back, people can repair with me, and I'm still
01:04:15.400 --> 01:04:18.659
okay. We need disconfirming experiences that
01:04:18.659 --> 01:04:21.860
show us we're not in the past anymore. That's
01:04:21.860 --> 01:04:24.980
going to ultimately also heal your attachment
01:04:24.980 --> 01:04:29.360
system. So we can't heal in isolation or in a
01:04:29.360 --> 01:04:32.139
vacuum. And I hate to be the bearer of bad news.
01:04:32.440 --> 01:04:35.639
That means that we have to do some of that work
01:04:35.639 --> 01:04:39.239
to make ourselves a safe partner. Obviously,
01:04:39.530 --> 01:04:42.309
There are so many nuances to this with clients
01:04:42.309 --> 01:04:45.329
of mine who've been stuck in trauma bonds or
01:04:45.329 --> 01:04:48.090
toxic relationships. I will encourage clients
01:04:48.090 --> 01:04:51.130
to pause on dating for at least six months, maybe
01:04:51.130 --> 01:04:55.190
longer, if they've been in chronic back to back
01:04:55.190 --> 01:04:58.909
relationships with toxic partners or trauma bonds,
01:04:59.250 --> 01:05:01.349
because we need to heal those original wounds
01:05:01.349 --> 01:05:04.750
because our nervous system is raw and we are
01:05:04.750 --> 01:05:06.769
in a vulnerable state. We don't want to go back.
01:05:06.829 --> 01:05:10.849
into dating yet, but we still want safe other
01:05:10.849 --> 01:05:13.809
to stow our nervous system a new experience.
01:05:14.070 --> 01:05:20.570
So what are your thoughts on that Mitch? I love
01:05:20.570 --> 01:05:23.829
it. And I guess first off of that is like contrast,
01:05:24.010 --> 01:05:26.809
right? I think that contrast is so important.
01:05:28.090 --> 01:05:30.590
You know, and think about it like, if we're talking
01:05:30.590 --> 01:05:33.099
about contrast, That means I'm feeling. That
01:05:33.099 --> 01:05:36.599
means I'm feeling my natural impulse. And I'm
01:05:36.599 --> 01:05:39.679
also noticing my own patterns that I've built
01:05:39.679 --> 01:05:42.659
through awareness and education and I've built
01:05:42.659 --> 01:05:46.219
capacity to be with. And it's like that, thank
01:05:46.219 --> 01:05:51.260
God for that yuck sensation, right? We want that.
01:05:51.780 --> 01:05:54.119
And we're probably coming from a place where
01:05:54.119 --> 01:05:57.460
I didn't feel anything, right? It can be, we
01:05:57.460 --> 01:06:00.260
have to titrate the good feelings just like we
01:06:00.260 --> 01:06:04.719
have to titrate. the old awareness of what doesn't
01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:08.199
feel good. I remember working with a therapist
01:06:08.199 --> 01:06:14.159
and going, man, I'm crying. Or I'm describing
01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:16.940
an experience where I was crying, but I wasn't
01:06:16.940 --> 01:06:22.159
sad. And it's like, man, could that be joy? And
01:06:22.159 --> 01:06:24.599
it's like, oh wow, I got to experience that too.
01:06:25.079 --> 01:06:28.059
And then I love that you're bringing in healing
01:06:28.059 --> 01:06:32.599
in relationship, absolutely. And how If we haven't
01:06:32.599 --> 01:06:34.920
had safety, we haven't had secure attachment,
01:06:35.460 --> 01:06:38.260
and we see the examples that you've been giving
01:06:38.260 --> 01:06:41.619
us and thinking, man, this is really... Well,
01:06:41.619 --> 01:06:45.079
what does that look like when we heal these attachment
01:06:45.079 --> 01:06:48.059
wounds and we go back into environments? I don't
01:06:48.059 --> 01:06:51.519
even know about environments, but yeah, with
01:06:51.519 --> 01:06:53.780
our caregivers that we didn't have that secure
01:06:53.780 --> 01:06:55.800
attachment with? Because you mentioned before
01:06:55.800 --> 01:07:00.110
we were getting on, your family and how... It's
01:07:00.110 --> 01:07:02.130
really easy or it's a lot easier than it's been
01:07:02.130 --> 01:07:04.989
because of the work you've done What's it look
01:07:04.989 --> 01:07:08.329
like when that heals? Yeah, so I'll give like
01:07:08.329 --> 01:07:12.269
two different examples. So A few years ago when
01:07:12.269 --> 01:07:15.250
I was like really deep into the work, you know,
01:07:15.269 --> 01:07:18.030
my father is a narcissist. I'm pretty open about
01:07:18.030 --> 01:07:20.889
that on my podcast on different podcasts I guest
01:07:20.889 --> 01:07:24.349
on. And so obviously we've had a strained relationship.
01:07:24.349 --> 01:07:26.889
And when I was really starting to dive deeper
01:07:26.889 --> 01:07:29.710
into my healing, we went no contact for about
01:07:29.710 --> 01:07:32.969
a year and a half. And then my grandfather passed
01:07:32.969 --> 01:07:37.010
away. And so I, of course, was going to the funeral
01:07:37.010 --> 01:07:39.710
and I saw my father and I wasn't actually triggered
01:07:39.710 --> 01:07:42.739
at all. at the time because I was intentionally
01:07:42.739 --> 01:07:47.219
working on healing those wounds and my trauma.
01:07:47.599 --> 01:07:51.039
And so, you know, I can also see him with a lot
01:07:51.039 --> 01:07:54.159
of compassion now where before that was not even
01:07:54.159 --> 01:07:58.780
possible. And I just see this man is just a ball
01:07:58.780 --> 01:08:01.760
of stress, a ball of dysregulation, a ball of
01:08:01.760 --> 01:08:07.739
nervous system responses that he's just inflamed
01:08:07.739 --> 01:08:13.300
and dysregulated. And I don't take his words
01:08:13.300 --> 01:08:16.579
as seriously. And yeah, like yesterday I was
01:08:16.579 --> 01:08:19.579
slightly triggered by him, but then now like
01:08:19.579 --> 01:08:22.399
I feel fine about it. And it's just kind of like,
01:08:22.520 --> 01:08:25.659
all right, like we're, you know, I might be triggered,
01:08:25.659 --> 01:08:28.319
but that doesn't mean I will stay triggered for
01:08:28.319 --> 01:08:31.979
days and days and days or weeks or years, right?
01:08:32.239 --> 01:08:35.840
As some people can be. As you heal your trauma,
01:08:36.520 --> 01:08:38.640
that does not mean that you're never going to
01:08:38.640 --> 01:08:43.020
be triggered. it will take you less time to go
01:08:43.020 --> 01:08:46.340
from being in your young, triggered part to going
01:08:46.340 --> 01:08:49.319
back into and feeling into your secure adult
01:08:49.319 --> 01:08:52.380
body. Yeah, I mean, what you're talking about
01:08:52.380 --> 01:08:56.300
is having flexibility and regulation. This regulation
01:08:56.300 --> 01:09:01.239
is stuck. And for, it sounds like what both of
01:09:01.239 --> 01:09:03.859
us experienced, that's chronic symptoms all the
01:09:03.859 --> 01:09:05.800
time, right? I don't know how to be with this.
01:09:05.960 --> 01:09:08.939
I don't know what I used to say. you know, my
01:09:08.939 --> 01:09:10.960
hair's on fire and I don't know what that means.
01:09:11.279 --> 01:09:13.739
Now I got a catalog of what that means, right?
01:09:13.760 --> 01:09:16.760
Like I have a lot of awareness. And do I still
01:09:16.760 --> 01:09:18.659
get triggered? Yeah, I got triggered coming on
01:09:18.659 --> 01:09:22.659
podcasts. That happens all the time. And as we
01:09:22.659 --> 01:09:25.100
see in a couple of minutes of being with myself
01:09:25.100 --> 01:09:29.659
and orienting, and I love this word, safety spotting,
01:09:29.819 --> 01:09:32.479
you can see that come down. And where's that
01:09:32.479 --> 01:09:35.699
heat now? It's not here. And I'll also share...
01:09:35.689 --> 01:09:37.489
I really appreciate you talking about your family
01:09:37.489 --> 01:09:40.729
because I have the same exact situation. I have
01:09:40.729 --> 01:09:43.329
emotionally immature and narcissists all in my
01:09:43.329 --> 01:09:46.449
family and I've been no contact for a while and
01:09:46.449 --> 01:09:51.130
it's really encouraging to hear that being in
01:09:51.130 --> 01:09:54.789
a relationship is possible again and that we
01:09:54.789 --> 01:09:57.189
don't have to be as triggered and we can basically
01:09:57.189 --> 01:09:58.590
take the things that I've been learning the last
01:09:58.590 --> 01:10:01.050
couple of years and eventually apply that to
01:10:01.050 --> 01:10:04.229
my family. I think they say family is the last
01:10:04.229 --> 01:10:09.350
frontier. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know,
01:10:09.630 --> 01:10:11.949
everyone is different. And I also I was sharing
01:10:11.949 --> 01:10:14.329
with Mitch before we hopped on the podcast. You
01:10:14.329 --> 01:10:16.369
know, I was a digital nomad for seven months
01:10:16.369 --> 01:10:19.689
and traveling and I visited my family and took
01:10:19.689 --> 01:10:21.869
a few weeks to come back to Ohio. And then I'm
01:10:21.869 --> 01:10:27.010
going to go back to Mexico, yada yada. But I
01:10:27.010 --> 01:10:30.229
wasn't really talking to my dad very much. You
01:10:30.229 --> 01:10:34.829
know, when I was traveling and abroad. And so,
01:10:34.829 --> 01:10:37.210
you know, it doesn't have to be all or nothing
01:10:37.210 --> 01:10:39.909
and everyone's situation is completely different.
01:10:40.470 --> 01:10:43.310
You can still be no contact with someone even
01:10:43.310 --> 01:10:45.770
if you're quote unquote like healing. Like it
01:10:45.770 --> 01:10:50.010
is okay if you never have contact again, you
01:10:50.010 --> 01:10:54.310
know, with your abusive ex or your parent or
01:10:54.310 --> 01:10:57.489
parents. Like each situation is completely different
01:10:57.489 --> 01:11:00.909
and there's nuance to everything. And what might
01:11:00.909 --> 01:11:04.010
work for me? might not work for you and your
01:11:04.010 --> 01:11:08.210
specific circumstance or situation. And there's
01:11:08.210 --> 01:11:10.109
this, the question I had next, I'm kind of going
01:11:10.109 --> 01:11:12.890
to give a little bit of context. I hear this
01:11:12.890 --> 01:11:15.189
question with a lot of different things, right?
01:11:15.909 --> 01:11:20.789
Things that maybe are our crutches. Kind of like,
01:11:21.229 --> 01:11:23.390
let's say medication. I've been on medication
01:11:23.390 --> 01:11:25.470
before. It sounds like you were at one time.
01:11:25.770 --> 01:11:28.069
And people will say like, you know, we want to
01:11:28.069 --> 01:11:29.949
shame and blame the medication that's actually
01:11:29.949 --> 01:11:34.579
helping us. And what I typically find is that
01:11:34.579 --> 01:11:38.500
it just kind of falls away. You know, we just
01:11:38.500 --> 01:11:41.840
get to a place, we notice the contrast, you know,
01:11:41.840 --> 01:11:43.979
I don't need this thing anymore. I'm going to
01:11:43.979 --> 01:11:47.939
see what it's like to not have that. Maybe there's
01:11:47.939 --> 01:11:50.439
symptoms at first. Eventually, like, oh man,
01:11:50.439 --> 01:11:52.800
I got enough information here to tell me that
01:11:52.800 --> 01:11:56.520
I'm good without it. And I'm wondering, how does
01:11:56.520 --> 01:12:00.789
someone who's no contact know when it's a good
01:12:00.789 --> 01:12:03.630
time to be back in contact if that's something
01:12:03.630 --> 01:12:06.710
that they're interested in. Oh, what a great
01:12:06.710 --> 01:12:10.310
question. I think there's no black and white
01:12:10.310 --> 01:12:15.729
answer here. I think that everything is circumstantial.
01:12:16.170 --> 01:12:19.789
I think... if you talk to them and they don't
01:12:19.789 --> 01:12:23.229
fully, fully activate you, or you can be in the
01:12:23.229 --> 01:12:25.829
same room with them. And maybe it doesn't mean
01:12:25.829 --> 01:12:29.149
living with them again or having the same type
01:12:29.149 --> 01:12:31.390
of relationship that you had with them at one
01:12:31.390 --> 01:12:35.130
point. Maybe you go from being no contact and
01:12:35.130 --> 01:12:38.710
then maybe you talk to them for 30 minutes once
01:12:38.710 --> 01:12:41.010
a week or once a month. And that's what your
01:12:41.010 --> 01:12:44.930
system can tolerate. I would say, yes, I would
01:12:44.930 --> 01:12:48.069
say if you feel indifferent, towards them, if
01:12:48.069 --> 01:12:50.989
there's no emotional charge, then that could
01:12:50.989 --> 01:12:55.350
be a time where you could explore reversing no
01:12:55.350 --> 01:12:59.449
contact. But like for exes or like certain situations,
01:12:59.449 --> 01:13:01.810
I think sometimes it's better to keep that closed.
01:13:02.170 --> 01:13:06.310
And this is like, I'm also very privileged in
01:13:06.310 --> 01:13:09.010
this scenario where I've not had children with
01:13:09.010 --> 01:13:13.270
any of my exes. So sometimes no contact is not
01:13:13.270 --> 01:13:16.390
plausible or possible for parents, for example.
01:13:16.760 --> 01:13:20.039
But you know, like for me, I don't find that
01:13:20.039 --> 01:13:22.600
to be helpful to be in contact with any of my
01:13:22.600 --> 01:13:26.779
exes. I don't really believe that you can really
01:13:26.779 --> 01:13:31.760
be friends with an ex, you know, to certain things.
01:13:32.380 --> 01:13:35.779
I mean, maybe you can, but it just it makes things
01:13:35.779 --> 01:13:39.880
complicated. I'm going on a different rant. But
01:13:39.880 --> 01:13:42.899
yeah, there is just it's a lot of nuance here
01:13:42.899 --> 01:13:46.260
with reentering no contact. I just would need
01:13:46.260 --> 01:13:49.699
to know also a little bit more about the person,
01:13:49.840 --> 01:13:51.960
their situation, what their relationship with
01:13:51.960 --> 01:13:56.619
this person is like. So, yeah. As you describe
01:13:56.619 --> 01:13:58.520
that, I agree with you. I love the titrating
01:13:58.520 --> 01:14:02.439
part. And I think in this work, what I have learned
01:14:02.439 --> 01:14:07.340
is that my previous, what I would call that,
01:14:10.319 --> 01:14:13.689
like a weakness, My sensitivity is my strength
01:14:13.689 --> 01:14:17.010
now. And I'm starting to see that very clearly
01:14:17.010 --> 01:14:19.210
in the work that I do. And what I know about
01:14:19.210 --> 01:14:21.750
me, and this is me, and of course everybody is
01:14:21.750 --> 01:14:24.010
different under circumstances and nuance and
01:14:24.010 --> 01:14:26.909
like you mentioned. But what I know is my body
01:14:26.909 --> 01:14:30.810
will let me know. And when I'm talking about
01:14:30.810 --> 01:14:34.329
my family or having a conversation with them,
01:14:34.850 --> 01:14:37.449
that's what we have on board eventually is we
01:14:37.449 --> 01:14:42.520
have this. It does feel like magic trick sometimes
01:14:42.520 --> 01:14:46.079
now that just it's letting us know and that feeling
01:14:46.079 --> 01:14:48.939
is everything if I can sit with that I can process
01:14:48.939 --> 01:14:52.680
that that's gonna let me know more than me trying
01:14:52.680 --> 01:14:56.279
to get some type of and and disconnecting from
01:14:56.279 --> 01:14:59.300
my body to go into my head to create some it's
01:14:59.300 --> 01:15:02.279
got to be now or putting pressure on myself it's
01:15:02.279 --> 01:15:05.449
got to be like like Val was saying on the podcast.
01:15:06.029 --> 01:15:09.489
That's going right back into our pattern. We
01:15:09.489 --> 01:15:11.930
become the medicine and the healing is ours when
01:15:11.930 --> 01:15:16.170
we can listen to that and respond from that instead
01:15:16.170 --> 01:15:20.789
of looking for the answers out here. Absolutely.
01:15:21.109 --> 01:15:25.909
You nailed it on the head 100%. Awesome. Well,
01:15:25.909 --> 01:15:28.710
Val, this has been a great catch up conversation.
01:15:30.070 --> 01:15:34.010
I'm sure we could keep going, but before we wrap,
01:15:34.170 --> 01:15:36.409
I wanted to give you an opportunity to promote
01:15:36.409 --> 01:15:39.350
yourself. I imagine people are listening to this.
01:15:39.449 --> 01:15:41.069
They're like, man, I want to check out safety
01:15:41.069 --> 01:15:43.609
spotting. I'm interested in this somatic therapy
01:15:43.609 --> 01:15:46.529
and man, I think I have these different attachments.
01:15:46.609 --> 01:15:49.210
I want to learn more about that. If somebody
01:15:49.210 --> 01:15:51.930
wants to work with you, where do they find you
01:15:51.930 --> 01:15:55.460
and what would that look like? Yeah. Thank you,
01:15:55.479 --> 01:15:58.640
Mitch. A great place to start where I've included
01:15:58.640 --> 01:16:02.279
basically everything that we talked about of,
01:16:02.279 --> 01:16:05.159
you know, like adult self anchoring, getting
01:16:05.159 --> 01:16:10.260
into our adult body, somatic therapy, and a tool
01:16:10.260 --> 01:16:13.699
that I use for building that safety in our body
01:16:13.699 --> 01:16:18.819
is EFC tapping. So I have a free masterclass.
01:16:19.630 --> 01:16:22.229
all about breaking your attraction to emotionally
01:16:22.229 --> 01:16:25.250
unavailable partners. There is adult self anchoring
01:16:25.250 --> 01:16:28.810
in there. There is brain spotting to break the
01:16:28.810 --> 01:16:33.270
pole and to break that pole toward these emotionally
01:16:33.270 --> 01:16:35.770
unavailable partners that it bypasses this part
01:16:35.770 --> 01:16:38.890
of you that quote unquote knows better, but is
01:16:38.890 --> 01:16:42.260
going back to these types of relationships. And
01:16:42.260 --> 01:16:47.420
then we also work on EFC tapping to heal and
01:16:47.420 --> 01:16:50.239
make the fear of abandonment smaller. And so
01:16:50.239 --> 01:16:53.560
we can recurrent this young part of us. So it
01:16:53.560 --> 01:16:56.619
really encompasses everything. So it's a great
01:16:56.619 --> 01:17:00.739
place to start. And then also my podcast, I really
01:17:00.739 --> 01:17:04.239
recommend it's called the anxiety recovery podcast
01:17:04.239 --> 01:17:08.279
on Spotify, Apple podcasts, all the places you
01:17:08.279 --> 01:17:12.329
get your podcasts. And then also like my Instagram,
01:17:12.750 --> 01:17:16.909
it's heal with Val, H -E -A -L with V -A -L.
01:17:17.289 --> 01:17:19.510
And I'm sure Mitchell put these in the show notes.
01:17:19.550 --> 01:17:22.090
I'll make sure to send him all the links and
01:17:22.090 --> 01:17:25.409
yeah. I love that. It sounds very thorough. I
01:17:25.409 --> 01:17:30.390
have to tell a little story on tapping. Another
01:17:30.390 --> 01:17:35.369
blast from the past. My first experience with
01:17:35.369 --> 01:17:38.710
someone in the mind body space was a yoga teacher
01:17:38.710 --> 01:17:42.409
who was doing tapping. And I remember thinking,
01:17:43.029 --> 01:17:45.289
number one, what is this tapping stuff? Give
01:17:45.289 --> 01:17:52.670
me a Xanax. Because I said that, I feel like
01:17:52.670 --> 01:17:54.909
the need to promote it as well because I think
01:17:54.909 --> 01:17:58.670
it is powerful. It ultimately taught me how to
01:17:58.670 --> 01:18:01.289
slow down and tap these different points of my
01:18:01.289 --> 01:18:05.430
body when my body felt on fire and I had no reference
01:18:05.430 --> 01:18:08.409
point whatsoever what was going on in a couple
01:18:08.409 --> 01:18:11.220
of sessions. I was able to slow that down and
01:18:11.220 --> 01:18:15.439
be like, oh, this is grief. This is anger. That's
01:18:15.439 --> 01:18:18.380
how I learned to name emotions with starting
01:18:18.380 --> 01:18:21.119
that. And it's like, it's one of those modalities
01:18:21.119 --> 01:18:24.340
that if not used correctly, you know, done without
01:18:24.340 --> 01:18:27.279
awareness, we can just poo poo it really quick.
01:18:27.340 --> 01:18:29.779
And I just want to say some of these tools when
01:18:29.779 --> 01:18:32.300
you use intentionally for the purpose that you're
01:18:32.300 --> 01:18:37.500
using them for are fantastic. Absolutely. Yeah,
01:18:37.840 --> 01:18:40.119
absolutely. Especially if you're like high on
01:18:40.119 --> 01:18:42.420
activation, like if you're at a, you know, seven
01:18:42.420 --> 01:18:45.159
out of 10 in anxiety or like you'll feel like
01:18:45.159 --> 01:18:47.659
your body is on fire. Like I think EFT tapping
01:18:47.659 --> 01:18:50.619
can kind of bring down that volume and help you
01:18:50.619 --> 01:18:53.239
to build capacity to be with those sensations.
01:18:53.600 --> 01:18:56.890
And it like, it's like, Anxiety is the stuck
01:18:56.890 --> 01:19:00.029
energy and emotion that like wants to move. So
01:19:00.029 --> 01:19:02.810
by tapping, we're really like moving that stuck
01:19:02.810 --> 01:19:06.729
stagnant energy. So I love EFT tapping. I think
01:19:06.729 --> 01:19:09.829
it's fantastic and fabulous. I also have a free
01:19:09.829 --> 01:19:12.369
resource. I don't want to like overwhelm everyone.
01:19:12.710 --> 01:19:16.489
It's also in the master class. But if you just
01:19:16.489 --> 01:19:19.829
want the EFT, I have a specific EFT tapping for
01:19:19.829 --> 01:19:22.270
the fear of abandonment and reparenting your
01:19:22.270 --> 01:19:25.380
inner child. So that's a fantastic. resource
01:19:25.380 --> 01:19:28.439
as well. Beautiful. Yeah, thank you so much for
01:19:28.439 --> 01:19:30.119
sharing all that. We'll definitely be sure to
01:19:30.119 --> 01:19:32.979
put that in all the show notes. Val, thank you
01:19:32.979 --> 01:19:35.060
so much for coming on. It's been great catching
01:19:35.060 --> 01:19:37.979
up with you. Love what you're up to and teaching
01:19:37.979 --> 01:19:40.760
us all that. Spend a little time helping me with
01:19:40.760 --> 01:19:44.420
my activation today. That was nice. And thanks
01:19:44.420 --> 01:19:46.020
to everybody who's been following along. This
01:19:46.020 --> 01:19:48.680
is the Rooted Conversations podcast. If you like
01:19:48.680 --> 01:19:50.640
the conversation, share it with someone, give
01:19:50.640 --> 01:19:53.189
us a like, give us a comment. Leave us a question
01:19:53.189 --> 01:19:55.670
below, we love those, and until next time!