Writing Through It: Indigenous Voices, Trauma, and the Art of Telling Without Breaking

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You're listening to Vancouver co Op Radio cfr OH one
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hundred point five FM. We're coming to you from the
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unseated traditional territories of the Squamish, Musquam and Slighway Tooth
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nations around Vancouver be seen. I'm your host, Bernardine Fox,
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and this is this show that dares to change how
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we think about mental health. Welcome to Rethreading Madness.
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Will have liver been fer nod?
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What the hell I'm gonna do when I can't sing?
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Fine?
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The way under over.
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You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver co Op Radio
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cfr OH one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernadine Fox,
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and today I have the pleasure speaking with Wanda John Kishwan.
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Did I say that right? Wanda?
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Yes you did?
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You said perfectly, Soaring Eagle. I come from Kihewan Cree Nation,
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and yeah, I'm a writer and I'm glad to be
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on your show, Bernadine. I'm glad to just talk about
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whatever comes out into the universe.
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I so look forward to this interview exactly for that reason.
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I love not scripting things and just sitting down and chatting.
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Can you tell me where Kishwan Crenation is.
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It's about three and a half hours northeast of Edmonton,
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so in between Cole Lake and Saint Paul.
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Oh my god.
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Yeah.
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Now, I know, of course that land goes on that far,
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but I don't think I knew in my head that
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it goes up that far. I don't have any visual
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concept of that far up there. That's like cold.
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I'm a Yeah.
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I actually used to think I was actually on the
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edge of the world because I lived in Kihuan Crenation,
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and I thought that was the edge of everything till
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I found out there was another province over. So yeah,
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when you're a kid, it seems like the end of
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the world. It's like, I'm on the edge of the world.
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What did you do as a kid?
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There a lot of daydreaming.
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I think I had the absolute value of not having
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technology besides the you know, the.
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The two TV shows or something that would come on
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with your little rabbity ears and you have to like
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put tinfoil.
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On top of that to make them work. I don't
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know if you remember that, Oh.
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My god, do I ever?
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And your parents would say go move them because they
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didn't want to get up, so you had to go
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move them around until they said that's it, that's it,
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just stop no, right, yeah.
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Yeah, let go of it.
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It would start to right that they thank you hold
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it longer because it was.
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About that, oh my god, we are so old.
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But I had that that beautiful time in my life
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to use my creativity, which was you know, like you
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could talk to the tree, you could pretend you were in.
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A movie that there was a lot of that.
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You used your imagination, right, there was fifteen second, thirty
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second tiktoks. You kind of made your own sort of
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tiktoks when you're a kid, right yeah, without a camera
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of course.
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And were you isolated as a child or did you
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have other kids around that you could like hang out
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and play with.
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Well, I had cousins.
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Around the same age, and I also had my two
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brothers and my other cousins. We were actually raised by
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my grandmother, who like Roman Catholic, and so yeah, it
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was quite quite a colorful childhood looking back. In other words,
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it was traumatic and at the time, but now I
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can look back and kind of go, hmm, that's what
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that was.
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But you're now a long ways away from there, like
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you are thousands of Is it a thousand miles or
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more must.
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Be, I would say, if I'm driving there, it's about
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probably a good eighteen hours straight. And the reason why
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I'm out here is because I was pregnant with my
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first child, and I thought, this human being, this person
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is mine, and I need to get as far away
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from everything and everybody as I can, because I did
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not want the same things to happen to my child
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as it that had been to me. And I could
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not put that into words at all a lot of
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the time, but I could actually feel like I just
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needed to go, just need to get away. So I
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did that and I'm still here on the coast, and
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I think it was the best thing I could have
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ever done, because I don't think I could have survived anymore.
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But I couldn't have survived anymore with the way things
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were and the way things still are as well, because
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the intergenerational trauma and you know it, you know the
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addictions and the drugs and everything, and some people are
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not able to come out of it.
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And yeah, so yeah, answer, generational trauma is a is
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a very complicated, embedded kind of thing that happens in
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family and morphs and changes, and because it's so integrated
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into the family. I'm talking about my own family here,
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integrated into the family. It's really hard to recognize what
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is the intergenerational trauma is what's impacting on our family here.
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And it's really easy, I think, to go to, well,
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you're bad and you're bad, and I'm a victim, and
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they're a victim, but you're bad, you know, without recognizing
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that when it's intergenerational trauma, those labels start fading away.
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They're just not the same.
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And it's hard to kind of figure out what's yours
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and what you're carrying and your map back of traumas
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that you come with, because as a as a human being,
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you're actually carrying your also your grandmother's trauma, right, So
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we're carrying our mother's trauma as well as our grandmother's
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trauma because as girls, we carry every single embryo that
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we will ever have, like all the children we will
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ever have. So even as baby girls, whatever we're going through,
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our eggs are also going through. So it's like we
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gone we kind of felt everything that our grandmother felt
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as well, because we were also in mutero with our
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own momps when they were you know mutero.
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Yeah, that very fact always makes me realize that the
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matriarchal line, if that's what you call it, is actually
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so much more profound than the paternal one, because we
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really are from the womb, but it's not just from
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the womb. We carry the eggs from our mother, and
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that from our grandmother, and that from our great grandmother
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and so on and so forth back. And that's such
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a profound thought to me that we really do, like
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you say, Carrie, our matriarchal line forward with us as
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we move.
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Yeah, And it's it can also help people to understand,
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Like I think one of my one of my sons,
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he said to me, he's like, Mom, I didn't go
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through as much as you did. Why do I? Why
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do you know? Like he's telling me he doesn't have
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the trauma and yet he does, right, And it's like,
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you can pass on anxiety, or you can pass on
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depress you can pass on trauma, you can pass on
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negative feelings, you can pass on like I don't know,
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self esteem, Like do you pass it on? And it's
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like he's, well, I've never been through what you've been through.
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How come?
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And I'm like, because you're carrying my trauma, you're also
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carrying my mom's trauma. So I'm still trying to get
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him to unders done that. I think I've got my
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oldest daughter, who's thirty four, to understand it. And she's
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also in school as well, so she's like, oh my god,
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like this this whole trauma and this whole intergenerational and
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this whole being indigenous, and you know, not only Indigenous
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people have trauma as well.
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So it's like any any.
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Mom, doesn't matter where you're from, you're still carrying the trauma.
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You're still caring it, all right. So yeah, the natrilineal
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line is you know, it's huge.
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It is.
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Yeah, one of the things that I remember, and it
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wasn't that long ago, Thank god, this which sounds it
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makes me feel a little stupid that it took this long, But.
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I got it.
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It wasn't just stopping the cycle of violence. It wasn't
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just getting my kids out of the cycle of violence
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and getting them away from the trauma. It's that I
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role modeled all of my my coping skills that came
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out of that trauma, and so they're processing trauma or
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their own lives with my coping skills, which aren't necessarily
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the best ones because I grew up in trauma as well,
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So that kind of it's not just it's just not
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our DNA, the epigenetic part of us that's moving forward
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in our children. It's what we're role modeling to them.
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Even though we've stopped something, the behavior is always, you know,
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much longer to resolve itself.
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Yeah.
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One of the most amazing things that I find is
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the difference between my mother's parenting or grandmother's parenting is
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like the generations get better, and I think this generation
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we have the we have the beauty of giving ourselves
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grace and going we did the best that we could
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with what we had, but now we can actually have
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the gift of repair, so we can repair those things
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by talking about it, by saying, well, you're carrying into
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generational trauma, whereas like when we grew up, that was
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like you were just right and deep into you know,
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shuit creak without a paddle into the trauma, and they're like,
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no explaining. So here we are getting anxiety without even
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knowing what anxiety is, and depression and just feeling broken
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and not talking about our feelings because we don't want
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people to think we're crazy.
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Do you know what I mean I'm doing.
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It's so sad.
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Yeah that you know, somebody who has the ability to
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feel things is somebody who's called crazy. I always shake
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my head at that. You know, we are healthier if
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we can have feelings. So many of us shut them
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off and won't have them, and that's so damaging.
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Yes, so then we end up in therapy for the
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next twenty years.
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Don't get me started on therapy. I actually do a
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lot of work around therapy harm so and I'm telling
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everybody I'm trying to be as honest as I can,
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is that I've now heard so many stories and they're
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so similar, and they're so exactly alike from all over
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the world that I'm become kind of painted when it
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comes to the idea of therapy. So we won't get
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to go there. But I wanted to talk to you
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about your writing. Tell me about your writing.
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My writing.
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I started with poetry because I had a lot of
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feelings about colonization, because I went to school and you know,
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went to college and started to learn about what happened
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to indigenous people instead of feeling just broken, like you know,
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like Indigenous people are just broke, and so I'm just
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going to run away and you know, go immerse myself
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in the city. And do you know, until I learned
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about colonization, did I ever really grieve what had happened.
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So I started to write poetry. I started to have
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these really.
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Big feelings about like.
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Colonization and Catholicism and all these different issues and parenting
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and like I don't know how to parent, and there's
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all these big emotions coming out. So I think poetry
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at the time was the best way to tell stories
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that I wasn't ready to tell just yet, you know,
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like tell them in shorter versions and only inferred to
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like traumas. Like one of the poems I wrote is
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called Red Lies, and it talks about actually being abandoned
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as a kid, without saying I was abandoned. It infers
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it instead of just telling this story of my mom
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and dad being the two broken to take care of me.
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So my writing was.
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All about poetry, and it was coming out with different feelings,
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like with each you know, parenting a teenager.
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More poetry came.
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Out talking about sexual abuse. Different kind of poetry and
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spirals would come out because if you wanted to know
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what that poem was about I put in my very
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first book. It was a spiral and it was called
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Tai Ti Rent and it was in a spiral, and
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I'm glad the publisher was able to do that, and
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so you got dizzy reading it. But unless, like in
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my brain, it was like, unless you want to spend
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time reading this, then you can know what my trauma
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was and talking about you know, the abuse and talking
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about the you know, like listening to Shania Twain songs,
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you know, to you know, to cry, and it's like,
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you know what, at that time in my life, I
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needed that poem to be circular and then a spiral
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because I only wanted the people who actually wanted to
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spend time reading it and to turn the book, you know,
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over and over and over to see.
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What it read.
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And so yeah, then I moved into graphic novel because
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I think I had the big feelings. So my first
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poetry book was written through a depression. Second book of poetry,
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Seven Sacred Truths, was written at the tail end of
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a depression, like just coming out. The third book of
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poetry was written as a thesis for my fine arts
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my Master of Fine Arts at UBC, and so I
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could see the progression of the writing. So like the
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first one was depression and a lot of angry words
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and you know, like colonization, colonial pesticide, and it was
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like just all these different things. And the second one
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was more of a grieving and the third one was like, oh, okay,
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now we're just talking about truth without you know, without
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me reading it in public and crying about whatever it
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is I wrote. So it was kind of like a
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celebration of like, my kids will never have to go
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to residential school. I even have a picture of my parents.
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And the third one and kind of did a timeline
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for myself. So I was like, Okay, that part of
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my life is sort of you know over, and I
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think I'm supposed to be writing another poetry book, but
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I don't know if I have another poem, maybe a
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couple of haikus, who knows. But then Gary Thomas Morse
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had asked me, He's like, have you ever thought about
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writing other genres?
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I'm like, well, no, not really, I haven't.
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And he's like, if you can write a synopsis, you know,
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like try writing a synopsis for a graphic novel.
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So I did that and so he's.
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Like, hey, you know, highwater press likes, the likes the synopsis,
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Now go and write it, like, go and write what
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the graphic novel? And I was like, okay, well how
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do I write a graphic novel? And so then I
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went on YouTube. Well thank good for you know, social
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media and all these different forms, and it was like, okay,
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well you start with panels. So I kind of was
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trying to teach myself through that and I was like, okay,
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it's kind of like writing a film script. And and
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so I wrote the graphic novel before I took a
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graphic novel course at UBC, so, you know, not perfect
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at it, but got better than the first time.
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And I also had a.
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Really great editor I read the lenses amazing to work
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with and she taught me a lot. And then Irene
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actually asked me if I wanted to write a children's
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book because she had heard me tell this story of
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my daughter Mia, who thought she was going to go
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to residential school, and she she was beside herself and
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she thought I was going to She thought I was
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lying and I was actually going to send her to
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residential school. And so that's how MEA Wears Orange came
301
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out because Irene Valenza saw the value in in this,
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in this story, in this because I was carrying it.
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I was actually carrying that trauma, going how am I gonna?
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You know, like even in my daughter she's got anxiety now,
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and it's like, how do I. I was actually telling
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Irene to kind of tell her, you know, what I
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was going through, and she's like, way, that could actually
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be a book, And so it actually became a book
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after I told her that story. So stories, stories are books, right,
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just got to be gentle in the way you tell it,
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because without poetry, I don't think I could have gotten
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a lot of the trauma piece out. And at the
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same time, I was also in counseling as well, so I.
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Was able to.
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Kind of use writing as a therapeutic medium.
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Oh it is, Yeah, I don't think any Well, maybe
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some people don't write that way, but for me, that's
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what writing is.
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I work things out my writing.
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One of the things you just touched on is a
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very important thing that I don't think enough white people get.
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And I can say that because I'm white and I
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know a lot of white people, is that what your
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child was explaining and describing and going through is something
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that's so understated in the world, we talk about residential
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you know, trauma and all this stuff that happened to
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indigenous people, which was horrendous. It was a genocide, it
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was you know, and I'm not going to get into
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it because we will traumatize people.
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But you can't come.
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Out of that history and wake up every morning, I
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don't think so and be a person of color and
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know that history and not feel like your child did that.
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I'm in danger because I am this person of color
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and I think of you know, a family who are Indigenous,
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and I don't know how you how you wake up
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every morning and send your child, your daughter out, not
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knowing whether or not they're going to come back. Because
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we live in the world that we live in right now,
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and I think that white people don't really get the
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level of fear that people live with.
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Yeah, it's also.
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Interesting because I used to work for Child and Family
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Services and I used to go away a lot from
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my job. So every time I went away, and sometimes
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i'd be gone for three four days at the most
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time five days is bringing children to their home communities,
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and I would go through this grieving process like, oh
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my god, my daughter. You know, I got to leave
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her for three days. I gotta leave her for five days.
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Thankfully she was going with her grandma. But and then
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I had a breakthrough because it's like, it's not I
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was actually feeling my own trauma, Like she's going to
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think of abandoning her, Like she's gonna she's gonna like
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because every time my mom left or whatever, she we
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don't know, like she wouldn't come back for a long time.
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And so how how much of that is our own
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trauma and how much of it is from the past, right,
359
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It's like And it became easier for me after I
360
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realized that I was attaching my own emotions to what
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I thought she was experienced, but she wasn't actually experiencing.
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I was actually grieving for all those you know, grandma's
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and moms and you know, and even my own mother
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who wasn't able to be there for their children, you know,
365
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because of like the systems, because of trauma, because of
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anything really and not able to be there for your kids,
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your children, and the guilt that you feel and carry,
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and so it's like a big snowball of trauma and
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you're not able to be there for your kids, and
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then you're you know, like these jumble of emotions where
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I'm like I'm not good enough, there comes out loss
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of identity and loss of parents, loss of everything.
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Really, so yeah, yeah, that's that makes it that much
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more problematic and difficult. You can end up feeling like
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you're drowning in it, I would imagine.
376
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Yeah, so I'm glad I read.
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00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:21.920
Valena saw the value in telling the story because I
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was also grieving like her because and I was also like, going,
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how many kids didn't get to go home? Like how
380
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many kids? Like what if I had to let her go?
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You know, like what the heck, What the heck would
382
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I do if I had to let my children go?
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And I had no control?
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And I was like, actually, the ministry can come and
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take your children. Actually, so you better mind your p's
386
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and q's and you know, do everything right and hold
387
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your head down and make sure you're looking straight, and
388
00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:57.799
you know, because any of the systems could take your
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kids away and took your way, you know.
390
00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:03.559
Yeah, And I think that that's another thing that isn't
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totally understood. And again the white community that the residential
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00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:11.920
schools didn't really stop. It moved on to the sixty
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scoop and now it is social services that are coming
394
00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:22.839
and taking children often often without you know, reason that
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00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:25.880
there's a fear of or a concern of, and not
396
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:28.599
that the woman has or the man has done anything
397
00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:33.480
to warrant it. And again that's waking up every day
398
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:37.160
being afraid on some level.
399
00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:41.480
Yeah, and it's also the poverty, right, the poverty can
400
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:45.200
bring the ministry into your life, you know.
401
00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:48.400
Yeah, it's it's a huge.
402
00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:51.559
Which is why I like to write, because I can
403
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:55.920
write about the things like I also wrote a book
404
00:24:55.960 --> 00:24:59.680
called Hopeless and Hope, and it was about children and
405
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:02.359
ca because I had worked with children in care and
406
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:06.519
some of them I would have chats with them and
407
00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:09.920
conversations with them and they'd be like, well, why didn't
408
00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:12.440
my mom show up today? And I'm like thinking, I
409
00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:15.480
had to. I had to create an answer for them,
410
00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:18.359
And so that came out and Hopeless and Hope and
411
00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:23.279
I just talked about there was like a line up
412
00:25:24.039 --> 00:25:29.400
of talking about intergenerational trauma and without saying intergenerational trauma
413
00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:34.519
like grandma and just trying to explain in middle grade
414
00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:38.680
about what happens when there's trauma in the family. There
415
00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:42.799
could be like addiction issues. There could be you know,
416
00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:46.640
children being in care. What happens when you're in care
417
00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:51.599
the trauma bonds between you know, members of the family
418
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:54.960
like siblings or you know, so like without saying trauma
419
00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:00.559
bonds without saying you know, intro generational trauma or whatever.
420
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:03.200
How do you tell a story without using these really
421
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:06.680
big words. So it's like I told a story with
422
00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:10.440
all those really big words without saying those really big words.
423
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:13.359
And what you're doing is very important. Children left in
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00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:17.440
that with those questions can end up coming up with
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00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:21.960
answers that aren't helpful for them going forward, yecause that's
426
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:22.480
all they have.
427
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:25.720
Exactly because she didn't show up for her the day.
428
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:30.079
All the way to is my mom dad? And I
429
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:34.279
say that because I raised my grandchild and her mother
430
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:39.440
has a drug substance issue problem.
431
00:26:39.160 --> 00:26:41.039
And relationship with drugs.
432
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:45.799
Yeah, yeah, And for nine months she was missing and
433
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:50.000
this child was four, I think, and that was the
434
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:52.759
conversations we were having, where is my mom?
435
00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:55.720
You know, is she dead? Is she is she? Does
436
00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:59.160
she not love me? Does she? You know? Huge issues
437
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:00.000
for a four year old.
438
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:04.039
They're important conversation to have, and they're important not to
439
00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:07.839
walk away from. We started out this conversation trying to
440
00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:10.759
talk about how to write about things that might be
441
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:14.519
about trauma without traumatizing people. And I think you've kind
442
00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:16.839
of touched on that a little bit here. Is there
443
00:27:16.839 --> 00:27:19.799
anything else that you would talk about in terms of
444
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:23.119
how to write without traumatizing people.
445
00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:28.640
I think that's my best intention, and I think that's
446
00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:33.319
everyone's best intention as well. But it's also like, how
447
00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:36.640
do we stand in our truth while taking care of.
448
00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:39.920
Our readers and audience right?
449
00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:44.680
And I know there's some writers and storytellers out there
450
00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:47.799
that will just tell it like it is.
451
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:56.920
I'm probably one of those, j Justina, not because I'm
452
00:27:56.920 --> 00:27:59.559
about to traumatize people or shock them, is it. My
453
00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:04.200
childhood had no boundaries, and so I don't know.
454
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:06.720
What is shocking to people.
455
00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:09.799
I just you know, so I end up saying things
456
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:11.960
and I only know it's shocking when I look around
457
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:15.200
the room and go, oh, they all got their mouths open.
458
00:28:15.400 --> 00:28:17.920
So I guess that was the shocking part.
459
00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:21.519
So or one of them came up to me with
460
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:26.240
a counselor's card and said, if you need help, right
461
00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:30.240
to give me free counflict. Well, I wrote this piece
462
00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:33.119
called in India never dies Peacefully. And it was in
463
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:37.480
Rice paper magazine, and I I think I read it
464
00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:42.079
in front of like the Writer's Guild, some sort of
465
00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:49.519
event for the writer's guild, and so I was talking
466
00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:51.079
about how I had never.
467
00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:53.960
I was looking at all these photos of.
468
00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:57.319
Indigenous people and all, you know, in my grandmother's albums
469
00:28:57.400 --> 00:29:01.160
and people's albums, and I never saw anybody smiling. And
470
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:03.839
I always wondered, why aren't they smiling like and I
471
00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:07.759
was like, maybe they don't die peacefully. Maybe Indians don't
472
00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:12.079
die peacefully. And so that's that's what I wrote. And
473
00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:17.119
I basically talked about like my mom's brothers and sisters,
474
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:18.920
you know, one of them shot herself.
475
00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:22.359
He shot himself.
476
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:28.920
Why and he Mary died a crhosis of deliver and
477
00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:32.759
she didn't want to quit and she said, I'm just
478
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:33.960
going to keep drinking it.
479
00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:35.480
And so it's like.
480
00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:40.720
I I came to this conclusion where it's like an
481
00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:44.359
Indian never dies peacefully at one point in my life,
482
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:49.680
going why do I not see anybody smiling these pictures.
483
00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:53.920
It was always of funerals, and it was very somber photos.
484
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:59.920
And yeah, and this woman came up and gave you a.
485
00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:03.160
Car, a counseling card, and she says you can reach
486
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:05.599
out to me anytime. I'd be happy to see you.
487
00:30:05.680 --> 00:30:11.000
And I'm like, I was like a white woman.
488
00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:15.599
I have to add, Okay, okay, yes.
489
00:30:16.039 --> 00:30:18.240
She probably had the best well I knew she had
490
00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:20.119
the best intentions.
491
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:19.680
But.
492
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:29.359
Yes, best intentions are nice. But white people come to
493
00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:32.920
and I can say this because I'm white, they come
494
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:37.000
to it with best intentions, ladened with a bunch of
495
00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:40.920
other stuff, and often it is I will save you.
496
00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:45.279
I'm I'm the white savior and I'm going to fix
497
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:49.920
you because that's what we do. And it takes a
498
00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:53.680
long time for some people to get it that Indigenous
499
00:30:53.720 --> 00:30:58.200
people don't need us saving them anymore. We've done enough damage.
500
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:01.759
So anyway, I.
501
00:31:01.640 --> 00:31:05.200
Was also thinking about, Okay, like all you know in
502
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:09.680
the DSM, it's like borderline personality disorder is a break
503
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:12.079
in your childhood, it's a break in your isn't you're
504
00:31:12.119 --> 00:31:16.000
a person, But it's like would that break have been there?
505
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:22.400
So now we're using sort of Western excuse me, we're
506
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:29.720
using Western forms of therapy, Western forms of CBT DBT.
507
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:31.680
I don't I don't know where they come from but
508
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:40.119
I'm like, the Western broke broke the Indigenous people, so
509
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:42.799
now the Western people are going to fix the Indigenous.
510
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:45.880
Now, do you know a guy about the name of
511
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:49.839
Norman Leech. No. He does a lot of work around
512
00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:54.480
decolonizing mental health, and we interviewed him here on this
513
00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:58.400
program a couple of years ago. I think, now there's
514
00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:03.400
a fabulous interview. Really struck a chord with me in
515
00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:08.680
terms of taking mental health away from colonization and taking
516
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:11.519
it back to indigenous ways.
517
00:32:11.640 --> 00:32:14.079
It was really quite lovely, so.
518
00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:17.039
It's pretty amazing.
519
00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:20.519
I was listening to this podcast called Two Crees in
520
00:32:20.599 --> 00:32:24.920
the Pod and it's an amazing podcast and it's two
521
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:30.759
social workers talking about talking to different elders and stuff.
522
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:33.759
Then there was this one I don't even know his name,
523
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:37.119
but you listen to any of the podcasts it talks.
524
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:40.440
They talk about all kinds of amazing stuff. When he
525
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:45.319
was saying that Indigenous people knew that crying is healthy
526
00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:48.680
because there's some sort of enzyme in your tears that
527
00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:54.759
kind of disintegrates cortisol, and I was like, holy, I
528
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:57.519
was like, that's why crying feels so good, right, It's
529
00:32:57.559 --> 00:32:58.880
like after you have a good cry.
530
00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:04.440
It's because you're your courts. All levels are lower after
531
00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:05.039
you've cried.
532
00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:06.160
I did not know.
533
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:08.240
I just learned that.
534
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:11.400
Like two days ago, and I'm like, wow, it's a
535
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:15.480
tidbit of information that's, you know, so helpful for others
536
00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:16.319
to hear as well.
537
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:18.599
So podcasts are very important.
538
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:22.799
Yes, they are lead you on paths of feeling to
539
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:26.119
figure out, you know, what you need as a human
540
00:33:26.200 --> 00:33:29.240
being to you know, walk a little lighter and to
541
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:29.839
be happy.
542
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:37.359
And yeah, yeah, I wonder we have to stop. I
543
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:39.440
can't believe I'm saying that because I don't want to.
544
00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:41.960
I want to just keep talking to you for a
545
00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:47.960
long time forever too, because you know cool, I'll take
546
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:50.160
you up on that. You know I do that kind
547
00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:53.920
of thing. So, but thank you for coming and chatting
548
00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:55.480
out well. Before we go, I want you to tell
549
00:33:55.559 --> 00:33:57.519
us the name of your books and where people can
550
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:00.000
get them.
551
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:03.000
I think you look up my name Wanda John Kehewen
552
00:34:03.519 --> 00:34:06.799
k E A T W I N and you can
553
00:34:06.920 --> 00:34:09.960
just put one to John Kehewan Books and you can
554
00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:14.639
either get them through Portage and main Press Talent books.
555
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:19.599
If you see me somewhere, I always have like a
556
00:34:19.639 --> 00:34:23.239
copy or two in my car because I give them
557
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:27.480
the elders sometimes, and you know people who who need
558
00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:32.599
to also stand in their truth, so I stand in
559
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:35.760
mine and it kind of gives others permission to kind
560
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:38.840
of go okay, so I can bear a little bit
561
00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:42.599
of my soul and pain because fifty percent of healing
562
00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:45.760
is getting that shut out into the universe.
563
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:50.119
Sorry, Ice more, No, not, that's fine.
564
00:34:50.199 --> 00:34:51.199
Swearing is fine.
565
00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:55.480
We've gone past the need to never swear on the radio.
566
00:34:55.719 --> 00:34:58.800
So I don't know what I happened. Nobody's sent out
567
00:34:58.840 --> 00:35:01.360
a good memo. I would have liked to have gotten
568
00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:03.320
a memom so I know exactly when I could.
569
00:35:03.199 --> 00:35:03.840
Break that rule.
570
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:10.039
But I have noticed that nobody's paying attention to it anymore.
571
00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:13.519
So wow. Yeah, so changing.
572
00:35:13.400 --> 00:35:16.280
Times are changing, and let's all hope that they just
573
00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:20.519
keep changing for the good here in Canada for sure. Yeah,
574
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:23.199
thank you so much for your time and your attention
575
00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:26.719
to the universus detail, and thank you for having me
576
00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:27.440
on your show.
577
00:35:27.639 --> 00:35:29.280
And yeah, no, thank you.
578
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:33.719
Everything you talked about is so important and I've had
579
00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:37.239
a lovely time having this conversation with you. You can't see this,
580
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:38.519
but I'm smiling so.
581
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:42.440
You can hear me. Laughing and smiling.
582
00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:46.920
Yeah yeah, okay, Well, thank you Wanda, and hopefully we'll
583
00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:50.599
have you back on soon. Sounds good, okay, all right,
584
00:35:50.679 --> 00:35:51.559
and we'll be back back.
585
00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:51.920
Folks.
586
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:06.239
M Vancouver's community radio station for fifty years with great
587
00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:11.079
local music, arts, public affairs, many languages, and all kinds
588
00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:15.639
of great stuff. Support us for a spring membership drive
589
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:18.840
truplew co op radio dot org and learn how to
590
00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:19.440
become a member.
591
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:22.559
Today, Today, Today, nice job.
592
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:27.840
I've been staring at the.
593
00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:33.159
Kasna, thinking of every choice I'm.
594
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:35.199
Made to leave me here and now.
595
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:45.719
Standing on solid girl, I've been hiding in the shadows,
596
00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:51.880
wondering if I'm on the river someplace I never be.
597
00:36:54.000 --> 00:37:00.559
It's the salvage, our bigcause.
598
00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:04.920
I've got my best suit on and I'm ready. I
599
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:08.800
got my sleeves rolled up and I'll be on Malley
600
00:37:11.639 --> 00:37:25.119
while my hot stomping. You're gonna see me right holding
601
00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:30.239
round right right.
602
00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:40.599
Every valley there's a mountain for every answers a new question.
603
00:37:41.239 --> 00:37:42.719
Is it worth all things?
604
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:47.079
Pushing myself to the edge?
605
00:37:47.800 --> 00:37:54.719
Edge because we're all looking for a reason. Find a
606
00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:59.079
shelter from the store with the just keep your answer.
607
00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:03.679
That's your suffer again.
608
00:38:06.679 --> 00:38:11.599
Oh guess I've got my best suit none ready.
609
00:38:12.199 --> 00:38:15.760
I've got my Caesar and I'll beyond my.
610
00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:22.679
Wama had stop in the boat.
611
00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:41.800
You're gonna see me. Oh right, rack rights as I
612
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:46.440
got my best suit on the nun Mady, I've got
613
00:38:46.599 --> 00:38:55.760
my Caesar rock and I'll beyond my wama has stop.
614
00:38:56.599 --> 00:38:57.920
You're gonna see me.
615
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:02.119
You're gonna see me.
616
00:39:05.079 --> 00:39:08.199
Not how you far back down, but how you get
617
00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:11.280
back before you hit the ground.
618
00:39:13.480 --> 00:39:40.480
You're gonna see me. Crap, You're gonna see me. Here,
619
00:39:47.159 --> 00:39:48.440
You're gonna see me.
620
00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:57.840
Tony yup, QUI get Yuan's queen snaw Hi, everybody. My
621
00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:00.400
name is Quigate Yuan's. I'm a member of this Squamish
622
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:03.880
nation and the Yaglanis Klan of the Hyda Nation. You're
623
00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:07.639
listening to co Op Radio CFRO one hundred point five FM.
624
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:11.960
We live, work play and broadcast from the traditional ancestral
625
00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:15.079
and unseeded territories of the musk Wiam, Squamish and Sleave
626
00:40:15.079 --> 00:40:16.159
with Tooth nations.
627
00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:18.920
You're listening to ruthreading Madness on Bank of the cop
628
00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:22.239
Radios r OH one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine
629
00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:24.039
Fox and today, I have the pleasure of speaking with
630
00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:27.400
Sandra Yun, who actually has been on my show several times.
631
00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:31.679
I think actually you were our first interview that we
632
00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:36.599
ever did on this program. So welcome back, Sandra. It's
633
00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:38.960
been on air now for seven years.
634
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:39.280
Did you both.
635
00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:40.400
Wow?
636
00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:44.199
Wow, it's a I feel like I just started, even
637
00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:45.480
though it's been seven years.
638
00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:46.119
So there you go.
639
00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:47.760
That's so much. I love doing what I'm.
640
00:40:47.559 --> 00:40:51.039
Doing, Santra, tell people who you are. I don't want
641
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:53.079
to introduce you because I'll do it poorly, and I
642
00:40:53.079 --> 00:40:54.559
know you'll do well.
643
00:40:54.599 --> 00:40:57.599
I'm glad to be back. I always enjoy speaking with you.
644
00:40:57.679 --> 00:41:02.679
Bernia Ardean, I am an artist, writer, kind of a
645
00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:06.519
bit of a drummer. I also an advocate for mental health.
646
00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:09.360
I do a lot of talks about mental health as well.
647
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:12.079
Right now, I'm releasing a book. That's my main focus
648
00:41:12.199 --> 00:41:12.639
right now.
649
00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:16.039
So the book is your main focus right now.
650
00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:16.559
Yeah.
651
00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:19.920
And they do that, those books, they are they do
652
00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:22.719
take up every inch of your life and you're whether
653
00:41:22.760 --> 00:41:26.280
it's sleeping or waking. I feel because it is so
654
00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:30.480
much that goes into actually writing, editing, putting it together
655
00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:32.840
and getting it to the final stage of publishing.
656
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:33.800
It so well done.
657
00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:35.760
This is not your first book.
658
00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:38.280
It's my fourth book, your fourth.
659
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:40.159
Book, and what are the names of the other books.
660
00:41:40.599 --> 00:41:44.440
My first book was a memoir twenty ten called My
661
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:48.679
Schizophretic Life, The Road to Recovery from Mental Illness. My
662
00:41:48.760 --> 00:41:52.599
second book was Chopstick, and then my third one was
663
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:56.280
From New York to Vancouver, Stories on the Fly, co
664
00:41:56.360 --> 00:41:58.480
written with James D.
665
00:41:58.679 --> 00:41:59.639
Young in New York.
666
00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:03.039
And this final book I'm doing well, This debut book
667
00:42:03.079 --> 00:42:06.079
I'm doing right now is my first prose poetry book
668
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:08.599
called I Want to Be Buried Standing Up.
669
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:10.360
That's very cool.
670
00:42:12.039 --> 00:42:14.119
Can you define a prose a poetry?
671
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:14.800
What does that mean?
672
00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:16.719
Well, it's kind.
673
00:42:16.519 --> 00:42:19.800
Of like a bit of prose, but it's also poetry,
674
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:22.920
so it takes both tools to create a poem.
675
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:25.840
So instead of using a lot of say, you know, rhyme.
676
00:42:25.639 --> 00:42:29.480
And there's some meter to it, but I think it's
677
00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:32.679
more about how you put it together. It's a bit
678
00:42:32.679 --> 00:42:35.800
more abstract in the way I do it, but it's
679
00:42:35.880 --> 00:42:39.400
more it's not like a nursery rhyme.
680
00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:42.679
Let's just say so, it's not a poem like a
681
00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:46.880
nursery rhyme, and it includes pros and I guess really
682
00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:48.559
the truth is is that we need to see it
683
00:42:48.599 --> 00:42:51.119
to understand it. How did you ever come up with
684
00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:53.480
I want to be buried standing up.
685
00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:56.719
I think I chose that title because that's how I
686
00:42:56.719 --> 00:42:59.480
live my life. I live my life standing up. I've
687
00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:02.400
always tried to strive to be as good as I
688
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:05.360
could be, make use of my time, and that's how
689
00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:08.039
I want to die. I want to be die standing
690
00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:12.800
up as well, because I think for me, it's how
691
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:15.559
I live my life that's important. I don't really think
692
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:19.840
too much about religious beliefs and life here after, so
693
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:21.320
I want to make the time best of what I
694
00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:22.000
have right now.
695
00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:26.639
That makes sense, and even even if you believe in
696
00:43:26.679 --> 00:43:29.079
the here and after, it's always a good thing to
697
00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:32.119
make use of the time we have here now, right.
698
00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:36.199
So what was your inspiration for this particular book?
699
00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:39.039
Well, I was goute through a lot of transition and
700
00:43:41.039 --> 00:43:44.239
my friend had what we call a magic typewriter. It's
701
00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:48.800
this old Remington typewriter, like you know, manual typewriter, and
702
00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:51.079
it's it's kind of interesting when you type on it
703
00:43:51.079 --> 00:43:53.559
because it's very tactile and you really have to kind
704
00:43:53.559 --> 00:43:56.519
of think as you type in and it's really kind
705
00:43:56.559 --> 00:43:59.360
of pushed me to create.
706
00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:01.199
A stream of.
707
00:44:01.159 --> 00:44:04.719
Conscious type of writing, kind of like just jointed or
708
00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:09.280
deconstructed poetry in a way, and just putting down ideas
709
00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:12.039
and concepts and just things that would float into my mind,
710
00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:15.239
drifted into my mind and putting them down on paper.
711
00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:17.280
I did a lot of ranting on there. I was
712
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:19.400
going through that really lot of changing.
713
00:44:19.159 --> 00:44:21.079
Up people in my life, so kind of it's kind
714
00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:23.199
of like all this all this energy and and and
715
00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:25.719
creatvity kind of just flew out of me, kind of
716
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:27.079
Vomit just kind of came out.
717
00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:30.400
Of me, and I would just take all these concepts.
718
00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:32.280
And put them together. And I thought, after a while,
719
00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:33.639
I thought, you know, I've got I've got quite a
720
00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:35.239
collection here. And I was speaking to.
721
00:44:36.760 --> 00:44:39.480
A very good author named Betsy Warland, and she says,
722
00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:40.880
you know, really got something here.
723
00:44:40.920 --> 00:44:44.079
You should try to submit this. So we talked and
724
00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:47.079
she said she says, Yespew Places. And then I put
725
00:44:47.079 --> 00:44:49.159
out a few submissions and I got picked up by
726
00:44:49.159 --> 00:44:52.840
at a press, which was amazing. They're literary press in Winnipeg,
727
00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:56.480
and I was very very fortunate. And when I asked him,
728
00:44:56.960 --> 00:44:58.239
why did you choose my poetry?
729
00:44:58.280 --> 00:44:58.880
You know, I'm not.
730
00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:02.599
I wasn't trained poet. My first book. He says, well,
731
00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:04.320
I think we can do something with it, is what
732
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:04.760
he said.
733
00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:11.800
Oh that's very cool. So are you okay reading one
734
00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:12.880
of your poems for us?
735
00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:15.239
Sure, okay, here we go.
736
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:21.679
This one is called shaving Cream. And Lenard rownshe wrote
737
00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:23.960
a little up kind of afford to the book, and
738
00:45:23.960 --> 00:45:27.159
she talks about quotes from this poem. It's called shaving Cream.
739
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:33.519
He takes the shaved brush, lathers his torso, takes a razor,
740
00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:39.400
begins to slowly shave his entire alabaster body a fine,
741
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:45.800
delicate sculpture. He works out at the gym, swims the ocean,
742
00:45:46.360 --> 00:45:50.960
eats kale and kito, never macaroni and cheese or the
743
00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:58.360
cinnamon rolls from the supermarket. He abhors excess love success
744
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:03.840
models naked in front of art students, dehydrate it on coffee,
745
00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:08.519
and lack of pain supplies. The flesh is better exposed
746
00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:12.920
for an audience. Like God sees us through us, inside
747
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:19.880
us to reveal our true selves, our wants, needs, dislikes,
748
00:46:21.079 --> 00:46:25.320
prisons in our history, our past that makes us stream.
749
00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:30.119
Take me to the asylum, Take my wife, take my job,
750
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:32.880
Leave me oysters and call it a day.
751
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:37.320
I love that, Leave me oysters and call.
752
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:37.719
It a day.
753
00:46:40.039 --> 00:46:43.000
And when you think about that poem and after having
754
00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:46.840
written it and now you've read it, tell me what
755
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:51.239
you says, how you feel. It talks about what is
756
00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:52.039
the story there?
757
00:46:53.199 --> 00:46:55.960
Well, for me, you know, when I'm writing a poem,
758
00:46:56.039 --> 00:46:58.440
I kind of have an initial idea, but it always
759
00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:01.800
ends up somewhere else. There's these jumps and leaps and
760
00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:05.119
kind of these weaving of ideas and things. So it
761
00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:08.519
starts off as you know, somebody you know shaving, but
762
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:12.000
then it turns into okay, he's describe his personality and
763
00:47:12.039 --> 00:47:15.039
what he does with his life, how he sees his life,
764
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:17.719
and then he becomes oh, he's a model for it's
765
00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:22.039
like a nude model. Then it moves into like, you know,
766
00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:24.159
how does God see us? Like we're until explodes? We're
767
00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:29.119
naked before God? And you know, you know, to identify
768
00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:31.159
who we are as to ourselves or true selves and
769
00:47:31.159 --> 00:47:35.280
not just like makeup or a facade, but who we
770
00:47:35.320 --> 00:47:40.320
are in reality, are authenticselves And that's sort of what
771
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:40.760
it's about.
772
00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:42.440
Yeah, And but a humor at the end.
773
00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:45.719
I guess, yes, little humor at the end. It sounds
774
00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:48.519
to me that you approached writing that poem the way
775
00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:53.079
I approached maybe painting a picture, which is that you
776
00:47:53.079 --> 00:47:55.199
can start out with an idea, but then at some
777
00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:57.639
point you have to obey the painting.
778
00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:01.280
That the painting has his own way of going. It says,
779
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:02.440
this is where I'm going.
780
00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:05.039
I don't care what you wanted, this is what it
781
00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:08.480
needs to happen here. And so if you obey the painting,
782
00:48:09.079 --> 00:48:11.840
it works. When you don't, you end up with something
783
00:48:11.880 --> 00:48:13.760
that doesn't. It sounds like you did the same thing.
784
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:17.320
Thanks Thanks well. I had a fantastic editor that worked
785
00:48:17.320 --> 00:48:21.119
with me, Karen Calevll. She was fantastic.
786
00:48:21.199 --> 00:48:23.840
She helped me really educate me on how to make
787
00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:27.440
it more accessible, make it more readable. She also like
788
00:48:27.960 --> 00:48:29.800
questioning what is this, what are you really talking about?
789
00:48:29.800 --> 00:48:32.440
It really made me examine the poems and say, what
790
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:34.440
am I getting at? You know, what am I really
791
00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:36.920
trying to say? And it was like, it's kind of this,
792
00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:39.400
you know, like talking about different topics like you know,
793
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:43.039
death or afterlife, or the fact that you know, living
794
00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:48.079
in the city, the underside of life, the binner culture.
795
00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:48.440
You know.
796
00:48:48.639 --> 00:48:51.639
I rented apartment in like a slum type area, not
797
00:48:51.679 --> 00:48:53.840
really somewhut there, but you know, maybe not so taken
798
00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:56.960
care of, but just like.
799
00:48:59.480 --> 00:49:01.719
Just just understanding.
800
00:49:03.079 --> 00:49:05.599
Myself and trying to insight into myself and where I
801
00:49:05.719 --> 00:49:08.039
was at that time of writing it, because I was
802
00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:10.239
really searching at the time, who is sandrac I had
803
00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:12.280
this kind of new life open doors open to me
804
00:49:12.360 --> 00:49:14.639
and like, you know, I can make my own choices,
805
00:49:14.679 --> 00:49:16.239
I can be an adult. Now I'm on my own
806
00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:17.840
and what can I do with my life? And then
807
00:49:17.960 --> 00:49:20.280
questioning these things, I think, well, who is Sandra and
808
00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:21.920
is she identified through the poems?
809
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:23.920
Are the pops about her? What's it about?
810
00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:27.039
And it's like it's kind of this floaty, ambiguous world
811
00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:29.840
where it's like you know, you can you people might
812
00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:32.880
read it and come beycome with their own kind of perceptions,
813
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:34.039
but what is sound kind.
814
00:49:33.920 --> 00:49:34.679
Of putting out there?
815
00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:37.239
And I just want to like, it's not really profound,
816
00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:39.719
it's not really gonna like, you know, end war or anything,
817
00:49:39.719 --> 00:49:41.840
but it's more I call it entertainment. But I think
818
00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:45.920
it's like getting inside like the near divide divergent mind
819
00:49:46.039 --> 00:49:48.159
and just you know, how does that work? And how
820
00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:51.559
did the quirks work? And where where's she going with this?
821
00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:54.119
And just the fancifulness of it, how it just leads
822
00:49:54.119 --> 00:49:57.000
to all these trails like Sahara deserts and you know,
823
00:49:57.039 --> 00:49:59.880
floating about here and there and just and then asking
824
00:50:00.119 --> 00:50:02.960
like philosophical questions at the same time. It's kind of
825
00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:05.559
an interesting mix, I guess. And also in the book
826
00:50:05.559 --> 00:50:07.960
there's also a lot of artwork. My paintings are in
827
00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:11.199
the book, images of my work paired with the art
828
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:14.440
with the poems, so it's kind of like an interesting
829
00:50:14.920 --> 00:50:17.880
compliment to the poems that I was very fortunately put
830
00:50:17.920 --> 00:50:18.960
my artwork in the book.
831
00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:20.159
Yeah, that's cool.
832
00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:22.519
It's not always easy to get artwork into a book
833
00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:26.559
because it of course creases the cost for any publisher
834
00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:30.599
to do that, but well done. So who told me
835
00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:31.880
about the magical typewriter?
836
00:50:33.199 --> 00:50:38.599
Yeah, there's a poem in the book about the magic typewriter. Yeah,
837
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:41.960
so it's the keys are falling off. You have to
838
00:50:41.960 --> 00:50:44.679
be glued back a few times. Some of the parts
839
00:50:44.679 --> 00:50:47.760
are but maybe a bit like when the knobs is broken.
840
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:52.119
But it really is a magic typewriter. And I just
841
00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:55.119
it seems like a myth, but I think, you know,
842
00:50:55.199 --> 00:50:58.840
it's just the tactileness of when you're working on that typewriter,
843
00:50:59.239 --> 00:51:01.239
and other people typed on there and they said, yeah,
844
00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:06.559
this this is a very interesting like technique to do
845
00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:08.760
this because you really have to really impress the keys,
846
00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:12.840
and it's is this something about the magic of the typewriter?
847
00:51:12.960 --> 00:51:15.039
I guess do you think it has anything to do
848
00:51:15.159 --> 00:51:17.199
with I know we're going off in probably areas that
849
00:51:17.239 --> 00:51:17.960
you and I have no.
850
00:51:17.960 --> 00:51:19.239
Expertise to talk about.
851
00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:22.639
But they say that now that people who do cursive
852
00:51:22.679 --> 00:51:25.880
writing or actually do handwriting, you know, as opposed to
853
00:51:26.039 --> 00:51:29.719
putting something on the computer, that there's something that happens
854
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:33.679
in our brains that makes connections bigger, better, more wonderful,
855
00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:36.639
more whatever. Do you think it has because I have
856
00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:40.519
worked on one of those old typewriters and it is
857
00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:45.440
nothing like using a keyboard, you know, No, your keyboards
858
00:51:45.480 --> 00:51:48.280
are like fast, you just touch the button and it's
859
00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:50.639
you know, it'll do it once and maybe three times, right,
860
00:51:50.960 --> 00:51:54.159
But those old typewriters you really had to like push,
861
00:51:54.199 --> 00:51:56.440
you had to be deliberate in what you were doing,
862
00:51:56.480 --> 00:51:59.239
and you could get fast and make mistakes, but there's
863
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:03.199
a deliberate mess in making every key stroke.
864
00:52:03.519 --> 00:52:07.800
Literally you can't edit, but you just got It's just down.
865
00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:10.559
It's like using ink on paper. It's down. You can't
866
00:52:10.599 --> 00:52:10.920
change it.
867
00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:11.760
Oh No.
868
00:52:12.599 --> 00:52:15.119
Also, you know, I was talking to my sister and
869
00:52:15.199 --> 00:52:18.599
she helps with the kindergarten class and they're teaching children
870
00:52:18.679 --> 00:52:21.519
to draw on iPads, not with pens or prayons, but
871
00:52:21.559 --> 00:52:23.239
with iPads, and I found.
872
00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:23.920
That very strange.
873
00:52:24.760 --> 00:52:26.800
Yeah, I guess friend of all the messy play and
874
00:52:26.840 --> 00:52:29.920
everything I tell people, When I was raising my grandkids,
875
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:32.960
she loved paint, but she really liked to paint herself.
876
00:52:33.360 --> 00:52:35.599
You give her a piece of paper and she would
877
00:52:35.639 --> 00:52:38.519
opt to paint her leg or her arm or her
878
00:52:38.559 --> 00:52:41.679
stomach or so I would just like strip her naked
879
00:52:41.719 --> 00:52:43.440
and throw her in the tub with the paint and
880
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:46.000
say go for it, and then wash it all down.
881
00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:49.840
But people really don't like messy play. You know. There's
882
00:52:49.840 --> 00:52:52.679
all kinds of art now that they produce for kids
883
00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:56.760
to use art materials that literally you can't make a
884
00:52:56.880 --> 00:53:00.239
mess with them. So I see iPads like that as well.
885
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:06.559
Although at the same time I do think that, you know,
886
00:53:06.840 --> 00:53:11.880
kids that are using using computers faster and quicker are
887
00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:16.760
probably taking evolutionary steps that we never got to tape
888
00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:20.880
because we were restricted with our pen and paper.
889
00:53:21.639 --> 00:53:23.320
Yeah, that's true. That's true.
890
00:53:23.480 --> 00:53:26.199
And then when you transcribe it, you're you're adding, you're
891
00:53:26.239 --> 00:53:28.639
seeing in a different way, and then you're you're kind
892
00:53:28.679 --> 00:53:30.679
of editing as you're going. And you go from like
893
00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:33.840
the type you know, printed from the typewriter to.
894
00:53:33.840 --> 00:53:36.639
The computer, and it's different. And when you're in a computer,
895
00:53:36.679 --> 00:53:39.199
it's a different t it's totally different. Like when you're typing,
896
00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:42.760
it's much more fleeting. It's it's like it's it's a
897
00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:43.280
lighter touch.
898
00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:43.360
It.
899
00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:46.400
It's a different type of attitude when I'm on the computer.
900
00:53:46.440 --> 00:53:49.599
For sure, typing there, for sure, it's more worry, you.
901
00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:52.840
Know, But when you're really tactiles, it's very slows you down,
902
00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:53.800
slows you down, Oh.
903
00:53:53.719 --> 00:53:57.199
It does, and to you know, really emphasize slowing you down.
904
00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:01.760
When I went from even in an autumn electric typewriter
905
00:54:02.199 --> 00:54:06.679
to the computer, my typing words permittent went from like
906
00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:11.960
one twenty to one sixty and I could finally actually
907
00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:16.199
keep up with my own brain typing. So the book
908
00:54:16.320 --> 00:54:19.880
is going out May twenty eighth. Yeh, Where can people
909
00:54:19.920 --> 00:54:20.199
get it?
910
00:54:21.199 --> 00:54:24.360
Oh, it's available at a lot of major bookstores all
911
00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:29.719
over the Lower Mainland across the country. They have a
912
00:54:29.719 --> 00:54:34.920
great distribution system. And also it's also on Amazon, and
913
00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:36.719
I will also have my own stock books.
914
00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:38.960
If you want to get me to sign a book,
915
00:54:39.239 --> 00:54:39.800
I'm here too.
916
00:54:40.199 --> 00:54:41.320
And how can people reach you?
917
00:54:42.320 --> 00:54:45.960
Oh wow, so I'm on the internet. You can find
918
00:54:45.960 --> 00:54:52.840
my website at www. Sun artist dot com or you
919
00:54:52.920 --> 00:54:55.280
can find me through Instagram as well.
920
00:54:56.159 --> 00:54:59.679
And you and is spelled why you em correct?
921
00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:00.239
Right?
922
00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:04.119
Okay, no problem, all right, Well, thank you, Sandra. I
923
00:55:04.400 --> 00:55:07.119
certainly look forward to your book coming out and reading
924
00:55:07.159 --> 00:55:07.800
it myself.
925
00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:11.719
Thank you, Thank you so much. Brady, You're welcome.
926
00:55:11.760 --> 00:55:14.039
We'll be right back for well.
927
00:55:14.400 --> 00:55:17.440
Hey, this is Mark Kilanski from Golden Shoals. You know,
928
00:55:17.559 --> 00:55:20.519
in a world where things are constantly fed to us
929
00:55:20.599 --> 00:55:24.880
through a screen, through an algorithm, independent radio offers music
930
00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:29.400
and playlists made by friends, neighbors and humans. I love
931
00:55:29.400 --> 00:55:32.639
it so much and I really want everybody to continue
932
00:55:32.679 --> 00:55:36.960
to enjoy that in these modern times. Forget Spotify, forget YouTube.
933
00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:40.039
Listen to co Op Radio one hundred point five FM
934
00:55:40.159 --> 00:55:41.840
and co op Radio dot Org.
935
00:55:43.440 --> 00:55:46.639
You're listening tore Threading Madness on Vancouver co Op Radio CFR.
936
00:55:46.719 --> 00:55:50.320
Oh one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox and
937
00:55:50.360 --> 00:55:51.039
that's our show.
938
00:55:51.559 --> 00:55:52.079
My thanks to.
939
00:55:52.119 --> 00:55:55.239
Wanda, John Kihwan and Sandra Yuwen for coming and sharing
940
00:55:55.239 --> 00:55:58.320
your writing with us. Writers and artists are some of
941
00:55:58.480 --> 00:56:01.440
my favorite guests. I hope that you're able to go
942
00:56:01.480 --> 00:56:04.440
and check their work. Music today was by Sherry all
943
00:56:04.519 --> 00:56:07.360
Rick and Callum Scott. Thank you for joining us today.
944
00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:12.280
We'll be back next week. Stay safe out there. You've
945
00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:14.960
just listened to Rethreading Madness, where we dare to change
946
00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:16.480
how we think about mental health.
947
00:56:16.719 --> 00:56:17.719
We air live on.
948
00:56:17.719 --> 00:56:21.239
Vancouver co Op Radio CFRI one hundred point five FM
949
00:56:21.599 --> 00:56:25.199
every Tuesday at five pm or online at co opradio
950
00:56:25.239 --> 00:56:25.760
dot org.
951
00:56:26.159 --> 00:56:26.719
If you have.
952
00:56:26.719 --> 00:56:30.239
Questions or feedback about this program, or want to share
953
00:56:30.280 --> 00:56:32.880
your story or have something to say to us, we
954
00:56:32.920 --> 00:56:34.159
want to hear from you.
955
00:56:34.159 --> 00:56:35.079
You can reach us.
956
00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:38.440
By email Rethreading Madness at co opradio dot org.
957
00:56:38.840 --> 00:56:41.280
This is Bernardine Fox. We'll be back next week.
958
00:56:41.679 --> 00:56:45.840
Until then, will ever been fir.
959
00:56:48.000 --> 00:56:48.039
No?
960
00:56:48.800 --> 00:56:55.039
What the hell I'm gonna do when I can't seem
961
00:56:55.400 --> 00:56:57.239
fine away.
962
00:56:58.239 --> 00:57:00.880
Under true?
963
00:57:03.800 --> 00:57:07.199
Just when I'm ready and give the light.
964
00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:13.639
They are when we turned out the lights in It's sorry.
965
00:57:14.840 --> 00:57:23.000
It's all right. Don't you really be alright? Why do
966
00:57:23.119 --> 00:57:26.559
I always believe but when you're.
967
00:57:26.280 --> 00:57:39.239
Telling me everything's gonna be out right? Yeah, Why don't
968
00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:41.400
I wonder how you know?
969
00:57:43.519 --> 00:57:46.480
Surely you don't have all of the facts.
970
00:57:48.639 --> 00:57:55.280
You could be just making it. Why don't I ever
971
00:57:55.719 --> 00:58:00.880
think of that? It's some kind of you g in
972
00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:02.000
the words that.
973
00:58:02.119 --> 00:58:08.599
You breathe saying, baby, take it from me, it's all right,
974
00:58:10.440 --> 00:58:16.199
it's all right, don't too real be alright?
975
00:58:18.239 --> 00:58:21.159
Quite a while, always believe that when.
976
00:58:21.199 --> 00:58:30.280
He tells everything's gonna be off right, everything's gonna be
977
00:58:30.679 --> 00:58:31.599
off right.
978
00:58:34.039 --> 00:58:35.639
Than anyone else.
979
00:58:36.280 --> 00:58:39.960
It's such a cliche, just words.
980
00:58:39.679 --> 00:58:42.199
People say it'll be nice.
981
00:58:44.079 --> 00:58:51.239
Somehow, and far from you. I'm convinced you're.
982
00:59:14.519 --> 00:59:21.719
When I'm weary and so tired, when I'm worn out, and.
983
00:59:24.559 --> 00:59:31.119
When I fall off the why again, no more strength
984
00:59:31.239 --> 00:59:32.159
to get back on?
985
00:59:34.719 --> 00:59:38.199
There you are, with that voice in my.
986
00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:41.679
Saying the words, and.
987
00:59:42.639 --> 00:59:52.239
Even it's all right, it's all right, don't really alright?
988
00:59:54.239 --> 00:59:56.960
One wow, When