Title: Pulling the Canoe to Shore: Healing, Mad Movements, and the Stories That Set Us Free

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You're listening to Vancouver co Op Radio cfr OH one
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hundred point five FM. We're coming to you from the
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unseated traditional territories of the Squamish, Muscream and Slighway Tooth
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nations around Vancouver, BC. I'm your host, Bernardine Fox, and
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this is this show that dares to change how we
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think about mental health. Welcome to Rethreading Madness.
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We have ever been fir No, what the hell I'm
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gonna do when I can't see a fine way.
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Under? Over to you.
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You're listening to re Threading Madness on Vancouver co Op
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Radio cfr OH one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox,
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and today I have the pleasure of speaking with Randy Tait.
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I've interviewed Randy once before. Today he's coming to talk
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with us about a recent storyteller event he participated in. Randy,
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can you tell folks a little bit about who you are?
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Okay, my name is Randy Tate. My Indigenous name is
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Emma Otsen, and it translates from my language to English
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means good spirit or good heart. My mother gave me
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that name. I belonged to the House of the Fireweed
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in the Kilo Whale and uh uh i as. I've
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been an artist for most of my life and I
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live in the Lower Mainland of Vancouver, beautiful Vancouver, and
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I've been around the city, oh god, yeah, forever, but
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I love the city. I go home once in a
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while to go visit family up in Daniska and the
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Gatsan Territory. And I've been on my healing journey for
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almost twenty two years free of alcohol and drugs. Oh
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my god. You know, I took my life back, my power,
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you know, and I'm honoring I'm honoring the gift of
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life in a good positive way. I love life today,
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you know. I work on my artwork on a regular basis,
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and I also do ceremonies, cleansing ceremonies with people in addictions,
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people in traumas, uh, people in hospitals. I get calls to,
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you know, to to to help these people on their journey,
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and especially people who are ready to go to the spirit world.
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And I'll get I used to get calls for a
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while there to go to any of the hospitals in
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the Lower Mainland end up in Surrey, Burnaby and New
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West North Vancouver and the hospitals used to call me
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at one time. It'd be nice if they called me
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again to do what I do. What I enjoy doing
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is helping others giving back.
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You recently did a talk at the Connection Salon, which
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is a part of Mad Pride. Here. Can you tell
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us a little bit about what you did and what
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you talked about?
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Okay, I talked about residential school, about my father being
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in residential school when he was with a young child,
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and he was in there for many, many years and
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then he you know, and then he finally got out
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when he was in these late teens, and uh, you know,
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they didn't treat him very well in there. You know,
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he was messed up, you know. And you know, he
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met my mother and they got married and had five
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children and yeah, yeah, and it was sad to see
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him the way he was because the way he raised us,
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and you know, me growing up having being resentful towards
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my parents growing up because I didn't know he was
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in residential school until back in nineteen ninety when I
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sobered up, I found out all about residential school, educated
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myself on it, and now understood why my father was
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the way he was. And I come to terms with it.
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I had to surrender so I can be at peace
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with myself and let the resentments go of my parents. Yes,
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and you know my father is just turn ninety four
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and my mother is going to mean ninety three in September.
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Wow.
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Yes, and what after I forgave them things change for
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the better. How So Yeah, I'm happy with my life.
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I'm sober. I don't have to hang on to trauma anymore.
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I don't have to hang on to resentments and abandonment
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and all the mixed emotions that come up. I'll tell
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you a story of what I shared. It's a metaphor
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that I follow. I follow it whenever I need to.
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Here's this young man myself. I'm paddling upstream in my
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canoe and there's all this debris coming down in the river,
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and I'm starting to be really angry, tired, fatigued, and
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mixed emotions are coming up. I'm really hurting inside my canoe,
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filling up full of tears. So I'm really struggling. The
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elder said to me, what do you do when this
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is happening. I said, I will jump overboard out of
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the canoe and swim the shore. He said, no, you won't.
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If you do, you'll get knocked out by the debris
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coming down and you'll drown. So what you need to
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do is pull your canoe over on to dry land
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and then build a fire, keep warm, drink lots of
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water liquids, tease, eat food, and talk about your pain.
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Talk about it. Maybe you want to rest for a month,
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six months, a year, two or three or four years,
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however long it takes you. When you talk about that
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pain and releasing it, a little out of time, and
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you will listen to your heart. Your heart will tell
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you when it's time to get in your canoe. And
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I listened to my heart, and when I climbed back
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into my canoe, the canoe was light. There was no
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more tears in the canoe, no more debris coming down
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the river. So here I was paddling and taking my
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time and enjoying the fresh air of the sunlight and
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paddling upstreaming my canoe, and I could see where I
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want to get to in life. So I took my
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time doing that, and then whenever I felt the same
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emotions or fatigue, tiredness, angry, or mixed emotions coming up,
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repeat the process. Pull my canoe over and rest and
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talk about it and eat and drink lots of water,
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lots of teas. And so this is what I followed.
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And then the storm that was over me right now,
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the dark or the dark cloud that was over me,
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and the storm it was clearing a path from to
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see where I wanted to get to in life. And
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I make sure I have that self awareness of my
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attitudes and behaviors and my fears and my doubts, you know.
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And I had to really look at this, and I
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had to work on my childhood traumas and my addictions.
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Go to meetings, go to a twelve step meeting, so
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I can feel good about myself. Here's something I need
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to hear that I'm not alone and take care of
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that inner child, and I share that with people. And
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there's one thing I was told by my counsel many
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years ago, back in nineteen ninety. She gave me a
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teddy bear. So what's this for? You got to carry
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it around? And I said, I don't want to carry
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this thing around. It was my ego. That's another thing.
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The eagle gets in the way of your well being
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and say, don't you got to carry this around for
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six weeks, so what of course I'd gotten away to hell. No,
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I ain't doing this, So you have to if you
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want to pass this program you're in. And so I
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carried it around. I took it to the bathroom, took
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it to the bathtub, I took it to meals, I
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took it to bed with me. I took it for
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walks wherever I went, and one of that inner child
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self threatened. I'd have that inner child and hold in
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my arms and say, nothing is going to nothing is
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going to hurt you, nothing's going to harm you. You
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are safe. That's what I would speak to that little
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teddy bear to talking to my inner child. Because when
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I was in relationships, when I was younger, nineteen twenty
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years old and so on, here's this inner child taking
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care of the adult in relationships. And then I would
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meet someone with the same problems. There's a woman who's
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this inner child, female body taking care of the female adult,
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and they clashed. They clashed. All the trust, all the
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issues came up to the surface. All the anger and
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the resentments and the abandonment and the jealousy, everything came
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up to the surface. When I was in relationships with
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different women, and after identifying find this, you know, I thought,
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I can't do this anymore. I got a sober up.
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Even when I was sober, I did this. I had to.
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I had to really work on it. I had to
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work on that inner child, deal with that inner child
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who's hurting from abandonment. And I was traumatized at the
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age of three years old. And I started seeing spirits
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at that age, and I and well, and I carried
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some of my positive memories with me, with my granny
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ye back in the day, singing to me in her language.
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I remember when I was a new born, she'd be
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singing to me, and I remember that song. I remember
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the receiving blanket that she wrapped around me, and and
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the safety pin, so the old flat diaper days, I
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remember that. And I bought a safety pin to remind
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me of that of my my inner child when I
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was that baby. Yeah, when we were all born, pure
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in innocent, right, and somewhere along the line, we got
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traumatized by by some negative energy you'll grow, you know,
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growing up, and we carried that. I carried that with
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me wherever I went.
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And the trauma or the safety pin and the teddy.
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Bear, everything everything. Yes, I carry that safety pin. I
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put it on my pants are hanging around my neck
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with safety pin. Yeah, it reminds me of my granny.
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And I had good memories too when I was a
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little you know what this. I went to elementary school
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in Prince super Well Port Edward, BC, just outside of
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Rupert and it was good. But back then the teachers
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were being just like residential school. You know. We we
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got hit with a pointer stick, we got hit with
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a yardstick, we got hit with whatever, we got spit on,
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we got slopped on the head, We were we were
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made to pee your pants when we were little kids
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in school, you know, if we needed to go, and
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the teachers were very stick you can't go. And then
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when we wet our pants in school, we were sent
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sent home that I wasn't listening, which wasn't true. The
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teachers made up stories when we were little. Yeah, yeah,
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so you know and and uh but you know I
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remember that I carry that for over forty something years,
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and I talked about it when I went there a
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treatment center. Yeah, about how abuse we got either at home.
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You know, we got we got hit with a wooden
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spoon with a belt. Want you but my mother wouldn't
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do that. It was my father that was doing that
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because this is what happened to him. He got abused
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from there, and it was sad. I've seen them, the
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woodmarks on his back. It looked like a freeway, freeways,
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you know, and it was sad. I remember when I
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heard someone crying in our house, so I snuck upstairs
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and here I heard my father crying. He had his
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head on my mother's lap and my mother was just
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you know, stroking him on the back of the head.
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And I saw all these scars on his back. Yeah,
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So I didn't know what that meant with all those scars,
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and then I found out, Now I know know how
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he got those scars is from from residential school and
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all the abuse they abandoned and you know, you know,
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they were taking taken from their community. Oh yeah, they
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were taken from their taken from their communities, you know,
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from our villages. It was quite sad by what that happened.
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So I carry this trauma with me, you know, witnessing
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the family violence, you know, in the household, you know,
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and then we carry that with us in adulthood and
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we acted out like like our parents did and we
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practiced what they taught us.
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So you have to, yeah, until you break the cycle.
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And it sounds like you have broken that cycle.
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Yes, yes, yes, and uh I had. I had two
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beautiful daughters, ones in the spirit world. She overdosed on
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cocaine and Prince George, and I got a daughter that's
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still alive. She lives in Hazleton, BC and works up
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there and she's happy. You know, she's too good. She's
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raising a foster child. I thought it was awesome.
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That's cool.
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And I have a bunch of grandchildren and great grandchildren.
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Wow.
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Yeah, so it's never thought I would live this law, right. Yeah.
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It's the hard part about living this long is that
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sometimes you didn't ever plan for it, and you have
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to kind of figure out what you're going to do
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with it, which isn't a bad thing, you know, because
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you get to a place where you're not hung up
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with some of all the social norms that you were before,
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and you really can be free just to find your
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own path and stay on that.
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So, yeah, it's important that you recognize and identify your
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your egos and your attitudes and your behaviors, you know,
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and when you surrender, you surrender the egos and the
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attitudes and behaviors. But you've got to do that on
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a daily basis, and where it becomes a norm, you know,
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doing good things for yourself and others around you, giving back.
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What do you do, Randy? I mean you talk about
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the canoe, and and certainly all that trauma is a
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part of what's coming down that river at you and
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falling in the canoe. And so the elder told you
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to go to shore, find a dry spot, make a fire, eat,
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drink water, be take care of yourself.
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Yes, sing and scream and scream.
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Yeah.
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Well every time I see you, I smile so and
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we run into each other quite often actually, so, so
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how else do you take care of yourself?
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You do sweats.
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I know you do sweats.
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I'm a fire keeper. My friend when he comes up
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from Washington State, my brother Terence, and tell that friend
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of mine and I would take care of the wood.
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Chop the wood, take care of the grandfathers, eat up
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the grandfathers, and keep the ground clean and the lodge clean.
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It's like cleaning house, same thing, right, m hm. You
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make sure everybody's comfortable. And the man that's going to
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take care of you of the household, the shaman, the
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medicine man, and uh I do. I do cleansing ceremonies
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for people on the side. I go to twelve step meetings.
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You know.
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I hang out with live music venues. You know, I
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got a lot of friends in the music industry and
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a lot of groupies in the music industry, positive people
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that I hang out with. Music is really good for
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the for the body, mind and spirit, really good for
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the soul that uplifts your heart in a good way
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when you're feeling down. You know, I do a cleansing
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ceremony every morning. I do my morning prayer and I
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and then I after I have a hot power, then
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I turn the cold shower on and I pray you
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while I'm in there, and it shocks the hell out
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of you, right the cold water.
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And that sounds like a little bit of torture to me.
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So the shower with freezing cold water.
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Yes, And it feels good and I feel good after
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00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:08.640
the shower, And and then I my routine is walking
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my little dog, Shrudder and then going to work on
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my art pieces. Are going to work where I'm needed,
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like I do contract work all over the place. Yeah,
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And that night when I go to bed, I lay
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in bed and I pray, well I'm there. I pray
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in bed that give me the strength to continue on
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my life, and protect me in a good way, and
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watch over me, and may have good, healthy dreams. Yes,
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and I say thank you all my relations and I
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go to sleep, and first same thing when I get
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00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:44.759
up in the morning, I give thanks for the breath
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00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:48.440
of life. It's a routine I've been doing for seven
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00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:53.359
days a week, and way before even sobered out. It
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00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:55.759
was the hot summer when I was having full flower
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like four or five a day, when when we have
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the heat waves, and many years I did this. I said, hey,
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00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:05.559
this reminds me of our ancestors. This is what they
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did before we had running water. We went to the rivers,
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the lakes, the streams, the waterfalls, and so I thought,
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I'm going to continue what I'm doing, and I love it. Well.
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00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:22.920
There is a day there is this school of thought
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00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:27.839
that cold water and going in the river or going
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00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:33.880
in something like the ocean even is will reset your
302
00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:36.519
I'm saying this all wrong. I'm pretty sure it's people
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00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:38.480
are going to be calling in saying that's not what
304
00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:41.599
it does. But it has something to do with your
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00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:44.440
bagels vegas vegas or bagel.
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00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:51.240
What's a your vegus nerve Oh yeah, Well, you know,
307
00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:55.759
like I say, when it chalks you, it chocks the depression.
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00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:01.359
It chocks that inner child too, trauma. So it chalks
309
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:04.839
you on. You know everything, your your nerves, your liver,
310
00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:08.519
your kidneys, you know your ears, your eyes, you know
311
00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:14.000
it it. Water is the best healing liquid there is
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all on Mother Earth. That's why I get I'm being
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so grateful for this. Without water, we would we would
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00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:26.240
all perish. We need water to live, to survive.
315
00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:33.039
And so the water becomes what for you then.
316
00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:37.160
Very sacred and spiritual. For me, it's the cleansing.
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00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:41.480
So even the shower you is a sacred spiritual.
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00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:44.519
If I'm out in the forest, I will look for
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00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:47.359
a river, like a stream, I'll go there and get
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00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:50.119
a cedar branch and brush myself. Don't want it. The
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00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:54.359
plant is very sacred, that cedar ceedar cedar bow is
322
00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:56.799
really sacred to our people. We need it for everything.
323
00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:02.160
We need it for medicines. This is it is. Everything
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00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:05.480
on Mother Earth is a spirit has a spirit, and
325
00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:10.440
they're all spirits and they all have healing, healing properties
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00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:12.160
in it, all the planets.
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00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:18.519
Yes, yes, I think I know that I probably shouldn't
328
00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:19.680
know that as a white personbody.
329
00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:24.519
Well, your people practice of medicines too, Every nation on
330
00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:30.839
Mother Earth practice medicine is yeah, we're you know, we're
331
00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:35.680
we're you know, got to get past the segregation thing, right,
332
00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:45.559
people segregating, you know, people putting themselves in little little corners,
333
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:47.119
you know what.
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00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:49.039
I mean, like saying I'm a white person.
335
00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:54.559
Yeah, we acknowledge the four races on mother Earth and
336
00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:58.079
the four Directions. We call them our brother brothers and
337
00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:03.519
sisters from the four races on there. Yeah.
338
00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:06.200
So just to be clear, the reason I do that
339
00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:11.359
is because I'm often mistaken for Native, and that feels
340
00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:14.720
wrong to pretend that in any way, even just accepting
341
00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:17.920
somebody else's misunderstanding. But the other part of it is,
342
00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:22.759
and my ex who's Native, often gets mad at me
343
00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:26.079
for exactly the same thing you just did. Stop saying that.
344
00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:31.559
But for me, it is about anti racism. It is
345
00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:37.960
about making sure that I recognize that as a white person,
346
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:42.039
there are places and things that aren't mine that that
347
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:45.000
you know, and I can have a tendency to just
348
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.599
walk into anything and anywhere, and just you know, not
349
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:51.000
that I'm trying to be rude or anything. I just
350
00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:57.559
I'm curious and so so that's me trying to be respectful.
351
00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:05.279
Yeah, I understand, like our people are very giving and kind,
352
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:08.960
and you know, we're stewards of the land. We take
353
00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:11.920
care of Mother Earth. And I notice a lot of
354
00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:17.799
non indigenous people are are are kind of like adopting
355
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:24.480
our ways of sweat ladge, ceremonies, cleansing ceremonies, you know, uh,
356
00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:29.319
whatever it is out there. I notice people are adopting
357
00:23:29.799 --> 00:23:32.920
our some of our ways of life because we live
358
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:37.680
a spiritual way of life, and they're attracted to that.
359
00:23:38.200 --> 00:23:40.880
And that's okay, it's good if they want to do that,
360
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:44.960
that's great. You know. I love it when people different
361
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:50.240
nationalities not only uh whites, you know, like South Asians
362
00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:55.119
and Asian people and African you know, our ways are
363
00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:59.720
pretty similar to the Africans and and the Asians and
364
00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:06.519
the South Asians, and like people clean themselves from different nations, right, Yeah,
365
00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:10.319
from all fault corners of Mother Earth. As indigenous people,
366
00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:13.200
you know, we struggle with the alcohol and the drugs
367
00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:17.319
and the family dynamics, you know, like the family household.
368
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:22.200
We bring that wherever we go our traumas, and I
369
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:25.480
keep putting tobacco down and praying that our people will
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be learn how to live a good, healthy life and
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go back to their roots, practice their ceremonies, practice their
372
00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:35.160
the ways of life back in the day, you know,
373
00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:41.759
dancing and having fun, you know, with their families, going out,
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00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:44.759
going out to picnics, going out to dinners together, having
375
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:48.359
dinner together, going to movies. I remember when I was
376
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:51.720
a child, when we're kids, we used to sit around
377
00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:55.200
the radio and listen to the Dark Shadow or something
378
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:58.920
that was playing. I remember that's all we had in
379
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:02.119
our household when we're a little and my mom and
380
00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:05.240
dad or my younger brother, we would sit around and
381
00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:09.599
listen to the radio. And we didn't have TV back
382
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:14.359
in those days. We sat around and listen to the radio.
383
00:25:16.279 --> 00:25:19.319
Well that's not a bad thing. And there was recently
384
00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:24.119
at the radio station somebody that was actually re creating
385
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:27.200
that that they would come in and do you know
386
00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:31.839
a theater piece for the radio. I don't know whether
387
00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:34.519
or not it's still happening. I should check that ready.
388
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:36.880
Thank you for coming and chatting with me about.
389
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:38.319
Oh, welcome, my friend, and.
390
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:43.920
I hope to see you around soon. Yes, and I
391
00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:45.839
hope that at some point we can have you back
392
00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:48.319
on and talk some more so.
393
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:50.880
Of course, and I'm sending you prayers for that and
394
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:52.039
you're going through.
395
00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:52.960
Thank you.
396
00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:56.480
I appreciate that. And may you get a good night's rest.
397
00:25:56.759 --> 00:26:01.400
I need that, yes, yes, yes, thank you so much. Randy.
398
00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:03.880
Oh, you're welcome, my friend. All the best of you.
399
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:06.799
Thank you and you and we'll be right back.
400
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:12.519
Folks here, turn you up. Qui get yuons queen snah, Hi, everybody.
401
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:14.759
My name is Quigate Yuon's. I'm a member of the
402
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:17.680
Squamish nation and the yagolanis klan of the Hyda Nation.
403
00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:21.640
You're listening to co Op Radio cfr O one hundred
404
00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:25.559
point five FM. We live, work play and broadcast from
405
00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:29.559
the traditional ancestral and unseeded territories of the Musquiham, Squamish
406
00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:30.720
and Slavertooth nations.
407
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:53.160
Street Lights bleed through the cracks and the blind and
408
00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:58.200
you're staring at the ceiling trying to entangle your mind.
409
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:04.240
The clock on the wall is the loudest thing in the.
410
00:27:04.359 --> 00:27:09.759
Room, and it feels like the worlds are closing in
411
00:27:10.359 --> 00:27:16.200
on YouTube. I know how the qui can start to scream.
412
00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:19.640
I know how you're trapped inside of the awaken dream.
413
00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:23.920
Your hands are shaking your cow in the floorboards tonight,
414
00:27:24.359 --> 00:27:26.279
just praying for a flicker, just.
415
00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:27.400
A little bit of light.
416
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:31.880
You carry them out and then nobody else can see,
417
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:35.400
and you're smiling for the cameras, pretending to be free.
418
00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:36.680
But assie the.
419
00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:40.559
Shadow that's hiding behind your eyes and die the truth
420
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:45.519
underneath all of your beautiful lies to This is a
421
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:53.480
song for anyone in pain, for anyone standing.
422
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:57.039
Out alone in the boring ray.
423
00:27:58.759 --> 00:28:02.440
When the way it's too heavy to hole, and your
424
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:04.359
heart's turn and heaven and your.
425
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:05.440
Blood's running cold.
426
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:08.279
You don't have to be brave, you don't have to
427
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:11.079
be strong, You don't have to pretend.
428
00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:14.319
You belong all along. Just try if you need su
429
00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:20.960
let the tears start to fall. Yeah, this is a soul.
430
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:27.319
Broken song for so.
431
00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:35.400
You remember the days when you.
432
00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:39.279
Trusted in Ny before every single promise that they made
433
00:28:39.400 --> 00:28:42.880
started to break. Now you're walking through the cross where
434
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:45.839
you are completely alone la like a ghost in the
435
00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:46.640
city that.
436
00:28:46.599 --> 00:28:47.960
You used to call home.
437
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:51.680
It's so it's easy, it's so you just breathe, but
438
00:28:51.799 --> 00:28:52.880
they don't see.
439
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:54.920
The gravity pulling out your sleeve.
440
00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:56.799
It's a heavy kind of sadness.
441
00:28:56.839 --> 00:28:58.720
The settles in the bone and.
442
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:01.839
It makes you feel like you're entirely on your own.
443
00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:05.160
You've been biting a war that has no end inside
444
00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:08.119
you wake it up in the morning just to dread the.
445
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:11.319
Night and your sigh. Oh God, I know that.
446
00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:14.240
Your sire to try to stoke a flame.
447
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:15.599
When you run out of fire.
448
00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:23.039
Yeah, this is a song for anyone in red, for
449
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:25.200
anyone standing.
450
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:28.599
Out alone in the pouring.
451
00:29:28.359 --> 00:29:33.880
Ring, when the waiter is too heavy to hold in
452
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:37.200
your heart side and heavy and you put running cold.
453
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:39.400
You don't have to be brave, you.
454
00:29:39.400 --> 00:29:42.240
Don't have to be strong, You don't have to pretend
455
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:45.920
any you belong. Go along just crying if you need to,
456
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:48.839
let the tears.
457
00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:54.640
Start to fall. Yeah, this is a soord.
458
00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:58.480
For the broken, a song for.
459
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:16.119
I won't tell you that it's all gonna be fine,
460
00:30:16.119 --> 00:30:19.319
because right now it feels like the end of the light.
461
00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:22.240
And I won't give you a cliches a phrase it's
462
00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:25.279
so hollowed to help you'll get through all the bed
463
00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:26.599
and it's just swallow it.
464
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:29.799
I will sit here in the dark, right next to
465
00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:31.720
your chair, and I'll hold.
466
00:30:31.480 --> 00:30:33.839
Your hands so you know someone is there.
467
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:36.799
We can scream at the sky, we can curse at
468
00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:39.240
the floor and see that throats the row row and
469
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:44.240
we cantyre because pain isn't something you just wash away.
470
00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:47.519
It's a storm you gotta sit through day after day.
471
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:51.279
But you are still breathing. You are still here.
472
00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:54.920
Through the terror of the down and the paralyzing fear.
473
00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:07.839
Here still don't let up falling. Oh, this is a so.
474
00:31:09.400 --> 00:31:18.279
Forrail, for rail standing out alone in the barrio.
475
00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:23.519
Went later the while is too heavy to fall.
476
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:26.759
In, your heart starting heavy and your blood running cold.
477
00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:29.559
You don't have to be brave. You don't have to
478
00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:30.279
be strong.
479
00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:33.599
You don't have to pretendy you belonged all along.
480
00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:40.119
Just cry. You need to let the two start to fall. Yeah,
481
00:31:40.279 --> 00:31:41.240
this is a.
482
00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:49.640
Song for the broken, a song for a saults the
483
00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:54.079
terrain fall down on your face. You don't have to
484
00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:59.039
win every single race. The room is getting quiet again.
485
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:04.440
This storm is slowing down, my friend, And you're.
486
00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:09.640
Not alone in the dark to night. We're just waiting
487
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:19.519
for the morning light. You, We're just waiting for the light.
488
00:32:21.319 --> 00:32:23.960
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver co Op Radio
489
00:32:24.039 --> 00:32:27.519
CFR one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox, and
490
00:32:27.559 --> 00:32:29.920
today I have the pleasure of having Matthew Jackman come
491
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:34.400
and speak with us again here on Rethreading Madness. Matthew
492
00:32:34.519 --> 00:32:37.519
is not a stranger to this program. He has been
493
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:40.000
interviewed before, and I'm so glad to have him back.
494
00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:44.440
He's been doing some research that I really want him
495
00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:45.920
to talk about. I heard a little bit of the
496
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:50.880
preliminary findings at a conference online a few weeks ago. So,
497
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:56.079
Matthew is an international mad activist. He's actor a doctoral
498
00:32:56.200 --> 00:33:00.839
researcher undertaking a PhD on international mad movements at the
499
00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:04.319
University of Sydney in Australia. But these days he is
500
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:06.680
literally all over the globe. I can't keep up with
501
00:33:06.759 --> 00:33:12.000
him so many places. Their PhD project investigates the contemporary
502
00:33:12.039 --> 00:33:16.440
activism and future direction of the consumer user, psychiatric survivor,
503
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:21.799
ex patient and inmate and the mad and psychosocial disability
504
00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:27.279
movements happening around the issue of being mad. So welcome, Matthew,
505
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:29.720
so glad to have you back. Is there anything you
506
00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:31.799
would change about what I just said?
507
00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:36.680
No, I think you really nicely covered. I really appreciate
508
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:40.559
you going into the different identities and different framings of
509
00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:45.160
how people, yeah, undertake their resistance and advocacy work in
510
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:48.119
their different cultural and structural context. It's wonderful to be
511
00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:51.920
back and always a privilege to be in conversation with you.
512
00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:55.079
Thank you. I feel exactly the same way. I actually
513
00:33:55.079 --> 00:33:59.160
come to this whole movement from the perspective of being
514
00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:02.559
a mental health consumer, which is not always a word
515
00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:07.480
I like. But also my activism is mostly about therapy
516
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:12.639
abuse and what people have experienced as survivors of exploitation,
517
00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:16.599
and that of course led me into understanding more about
518
00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:20.000
the psychiatric survivors out there, and really am getting a
519
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:24.320
sense that it's all connected. There are so many ways
520
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:28.320
that all of us on that list are connected, and
521
00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:30.800
of course the common denominator is the mental health industry
522
00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:34.559
and how it is actually impacting on people. And you've
523
00:34:34.599 --> 00:34:37.760
been doing some critical qualitative research and I just was
524
00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:40.599
hoping that I know it's preliminary, but could you tell
525
00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:41.800
us some of what you've found?
526
00:34:43.320 --> 00:34:46.280
Yeah, sure, so, I guess I should start with how
527
00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:50.519
I came to the topic myself, and I identify as
528
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:54.800
a bad person myself in the reclaimed cultural and political sense,
529
00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:57.800
given that that has been used historically in a pejority
530
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:01.679
of and oppressive way to people that have been labeled
531
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:04.880
with mental illness, that have grown up in the context
532
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:07.039
of a lot of distress and madness with my mother
533
00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:10.519
and my siblings, and then myself being psychiatrized in the
534
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:14.760
system and had had some helpful and supportive experiences, of course,
535
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:18.519
but many harmful experiences that really led me to thinking
536
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:21.559
and conceptualizing myself as a survivor and a mad person,
537
00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:25.159
which is an identity that's outside of the system, rather
538
00:35:25.239 --> 00:35:28.039
than consumer or survivor, which assumes that you have an
539
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:31.800
identity in relationship to the system that you've been accessing.
540
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:37.880
So yeah, through my own experiences and sort of politicization
541
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:42.079
or radicalization, I yeah, got involved in a lot of
542
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:47.719
international advocacy and activism in human rights and social justice
543
00:35:48.119 --> 00:35:51.559
and peer led approaches to mental health on the back
544
00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:55.440
of a mad episode or an extreme altered state, which
545
00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:59.679
took me to the World Health Organization and took me
546
00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:04.159
to South Africa about a decade ago, where the Global
547
00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:08.840
Mental Health Peer Network was launched and was inaugurated as
548
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:14.280
the Western Pacific Regional Representative. So through that process and
549
00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:19.239
about you know, seven years of international policy work around
550
00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:24.480
human rights and mental health and disability inclusion, I came
551
00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:27.880
across an opportunity for a PhD to continue that work,
552
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:32.559
to continue MAD activism work, and be resourced materially and
553
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:36.199
financially to do that. And that's sort of where I'm
554
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:39.440
at today. So I really come to the research as
555
00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:43.039
someone that's an active participant, someone that's an insider outside
556
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:47.239
of a researcher, and had the opportunity to interview and
557
00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:51.519
there's many of whom are considered friends, many of whom
558
00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:54.800
are friends and friends, many of whom are you know,
559
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:59.760
comrades and colleagues. Basically to understand what does you know,
560
00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:03.800
live experience, learn advocacy and activism mean for people in
561
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:08.199
their local, cultural and structural context. As there are many
562
00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:12.440
different identities, many different movements, and such movements that make
563
00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:16.000
up and comprise of the MAD movements. So I use
564
00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:19.760
that term plurally and obviously, as I mentioned, use that
565
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:24.320
term intentionally, even though it's not reflective of everyone's identity
566
00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:29.199
and or terminology depending on their context. So I really
567
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:33.719
wanted to document, particularly the global majority in Global South,
568
00:37:33.800 --> 00:37:36.599
or what are known as low and middle resource settings
569
00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:42.079
and to center perspectives, particularly around psychosocial disability. Activism in
570
00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:46.159
those contexts where the UN can mention the rights of
571
00:37:46.199 --> 00:37:49.360
persons with disability is a key human rights tool and
572
00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:53.239
instrument for people to advocate around, you know, presumption of
573
00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:56.679
legal capacity, the right to community inclusion and to not
574
00:37:56.719 --> 00:38:04.480
be institutionalized, alongside other developmental issue use of you know, poverty, housing, education, employment,
575
00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:08.679
as many of the movements. Historically the consumers of ive
576
00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:11.440
ex patient inmate movements have been documented in the North
577
00:38:11.480 --> 00:38:15.199
American and Western European context. So I was quite interested
578
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:18.280
in the contemporary or the you know, since millennia, the
579
00:38:18.360 --> 00:38:21.159
current context, the contemporary context, and to hear from people
580
00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:25.320
actively participating in those movements in their countries, regions and
581
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:26.360
or internationally.
582
00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:29.719
And have you found anything that is sort of common
583
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:30.800
throughout the globe.
584
00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:35.719
Yeah, that's a great question, better because I think, of
585
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:40.320
course there are differences in identities and language and issues.
586
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:44.079
But the common threat, of course is that mad people
587
00:38:44.159 --> 00:38:46.320
or people have lived experience around the world that have
588
00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:50.039
been labeled with the mental illness, not just by psychiatry,
589
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:53.559
but maybe in spaces or places where psychiatry doesn't exist.
590
00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:57.199
So it might be by family, by community, by society,
591
00:38:58.039 --> 00:39:01.480
you know, labeled or deemed socially mad or culturally mad,
592
00:39:02.360 --> 00:39:06.920
and in most instances there are you know, a stigma,
593
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:11.800
discrimination and saanism towards those folks. So people are viewed
594
00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:14.360
as less than they are viewed as less than human
595
00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:21.840
or dehumanized, and as a consequence, subject to interventions quote
596
00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:26.559
unquote treatments that essentially violate the person's human rights. So
597
00:39:26.599 --> 00:39:30.239
there's that correlation between you know, saanism to humanization and
598
00:39:30.280 --> 00:39:33.719
then people's rights being violated because they're they're deemed less
599
00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:36.559
than human and deemed that you know, in their best
600
00:39:36.599 --> 00:39:41.039
interests require interventions that are violent and harmful. And as
601
00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:44.079
you said at the beginning, that cannot just be institutionalization,
602
00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:48.320
but it can be therapy and other social practices such
603
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:53.039
as discrimination in their employment or being even detained by
604
00:39:53.079 --> 00:39:56.280
family or community in the home because they don't know
605
00:39:56.320 --> 00:39:59.199
what to do with their loved ones. So yeah, I
606
00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:03.360
think the common three around Sainism and you know, psychiatric
607
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:11.000
oppression and or discrimination, and people violating the fundamental dignity, autonomy,
608
00:40:11.079 --> 00:40:14.599
choice and self determination of people deemed mad either by
609
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:18.000
the system or by family, community and society.
610
00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:20.519
Yeah, and if I want to just bring that all
611
00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:24.239
back down to the whole issue of therapy abuse and exploitation,
612
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:27.199
which is only a small portion of this, but what
613
00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:32.679
we're finding is that there are abusive therapists who, in
614
00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:36.800
exploiting their clients, are in fact saying, oh, I have
615
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:39.360
to have the sexual contact with you as part of
616
00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:42.800
your treatment. And so it really sort of elevates the
617
00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:47.119
idea of if you're looking at the issue of the
618
00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:50.119
kinds of things that psychiatric survivors talk about happening in
619
00:40:50.199 --> 00:40:57.920
psych institution and asylums or even hospital settings where the treatment.
620
00:40:57.639 --> 00:40:58.480
Is not.
621
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:03.039
It's almost on the level of torture. And I think
622
00:41:03.079 --> 00:41:06.360
I can say that because that has been documented by
623
00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:10.400
organizations out there. It goes all the way down to
624
00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:15.800
the Joe Blow psychiatrist in his private practice calling the
625
00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:20.559
same kinds of things as treatment. So I really want
626
00:41:20.599 --> 00:41:23.239
to say that you have done so much to promote
627
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:27.639
the recognition of the importance of lived experience in talking
628
00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:31.719
about mental health and where it's going and what it
629
00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:35.679
should be doing. So often the stakeholders in mental health
630
00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:39.719
never include the person with mental health challenges. Or the
631
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:43.800
person that is going to be but the one supposedly
632
00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:51.280
being helped by an institution. So so I'm getting into
633
00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:55.079
politics that may or may not be want something that
634
00:41:56.199 --> 00:41:58.519
is comfortable for you. I don't know is it comfortable
635
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:02.599
for you, Matthew that I talk about politics.
636
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:08.440
Well, Mad movements central around mad politics and mad analysis.
637
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:11.760
So I think all of the folks that I have
638
00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:16.400
interviewed come to this work because of a level of politicization. So,
639
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:19.880
you know, one of the preliminary findings is how does
640
00:42:19.880 --> 00:42:23.199
someone go from you know, deemed mensally ill or mad?
641
00:42:23.719 --> 00:42:27.400
How do they go from their lived experience to politicizing
642
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:31.239
and becoming involved in collective organizing or collective resistance. So
643
00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:36.559
in a wayization is actually really central to mad movements,
644
00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:39.360
as many folks live with you know, have a lived experience,
645
00:42:39.400 --> 00:42:43.039
but don't necessarily get involved in political collective organizing. So
646
00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:47.320
it's interesting to know what makes what events or what
647
00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:52.079
experiences result in someone going from having lived experience and
648
00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:55.440
service use or harm from service use and your family
649
00:42:55.519 --> 00:42:58.199
community to I'm going to be part of this collective
650
00:42:59.320 --> 00:43:02.840
order rights and human difference and diversitivement.
651
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:06.360
And what did you find? What was it that made
652
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:07.400
that change for people.
653
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:13.920
I think for many folks, depending on the resource setting,
654
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:17.360
it's usually harms by the system and realizing that there
655
00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:24.199
are systematic and systemic problems of dehumanization and violence by
656
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:27.440
the service system itself and by the psychiatric paradigm, but
657
00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:30.480
also beyond that, just in society more broadly, that as
658
00:43:30.760 --> 00:43:34.320
mentioned before, that you know, madness is deemed you know,
659
00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:38.840
systemically a pathology by psychiatry in the psychiatric paradigm, which
660
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:42.559
then results in that process of dehumanization, which then results
661
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:47.679
in you know, a permission almost to discriminate and act
662
00:43:47.719 --> 00:43:51.199
in people's you know, quote unquote best interests. So I
663
00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:54.760
think most people have either been harmed by the system
664
00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:57.599
and or for family and community as a result of
665
00:43:57.639 --> 00:44:00.800
this label of madness and your mental and that has
666
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:07.079
led them to and that that consciousness raising an awareness
667
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:10.199
that this is broader than an individual or one particular
668
00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:13.280
mental health system issue, that it's actually a collective and
669
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:17.960
global phenomenon is what really brings people into these more international,
670
00:44:18.039 --> 00:44:21.000
regional and transnational international movements.
671
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:26.000
So in your research, if I was to take you
672
00:44:26.119 --> 00:44:28.480
back there, and I may have already asked this question
673
00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:30.280
kind of, but I'm not sure I got the answer.
674
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:33.760
What is it that you're finding What is the primary
675
00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:35.119
thing that you're finding still far.
676
00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:40.599
Yeah, that's a really good question. I think along with
677
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:45.320
some of the issues that I've discussed around common threads
678
00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:49.800
of human rights violations and oppression from either the system
679
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:53.679
and your family and community, there are also issues of
680
00:44:54.320 --> 00:44:58.239
you know, barriers around identity politics. So, as you mentioned
681
00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:00.960
at the beginning, there are many different identities that people
682
00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:06.159
come to these MAD movements with and sometimes these identity
683
00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:10.239
politics can result in differences in how they view the
684
00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:14.079
MAD movement's mission and values and goals. So there are
685
00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:17.079
people that are more reformists or maybe have had some
686
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:20.400
level of help from the system from within. Yes, So
687
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:23.159
some of the common issues within MAD movements so that
688
00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:27.159
there are a variety of identities that people identify with
689
00:45:27.880 --> 00:45:32.119
and a variety of values and politics goals issues that
690
00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:35.559
are ascribed to some of those identities. So, as you
691
00:45:35.599 --> 00:45:38.360
mentioned at the beginning, you know there's consumers or service
692
00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:42.000
users which traditionally have been somewhat helped by the system.
693
00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:44.880
So there's a level of acknowledging that there are some harms,
694
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:48.920
but that the system as it currently stands is working
695
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:52.599
to some extent, but requires as more reform from within.
696
00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:57.000
So yeah, that might look like alternatives to coercion within
697
00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:01.360
the system. That might look like more fun for mental
698
00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:05.280
systems and for more professionals and more peers within the system.
699
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:08.519
But then there are those that have been more harmed
700
00:46:08.559 --> 00:46:11.679
by the system that might identify as psychiatric survivors or
701
00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:16.559
ex patients inmates, which is their more historical terms around institutionalization.
702
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:20.199
And then there's of course mad folks, which is an
703
00:46:20.199 --> 00:46:23.079
identity outside of the system, and often they hold a
704
00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:27.679
much more abolitionist approach to the system. And don't think
705
00:46:27.719 --> 00:46:31.000
that reform within the current system as it exists, which
706
00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:34.960
is largely a cast seral system built on prisons and
707
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:38.840
prison logic, the systems actually need to be dismantled for
708
00:46:38.920 --> 00:46:43.440
alternative systems in the community. So there's certainly often a
709
00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:47.639
bit of a dialect or dichotomy between reform versus abolition,
710
00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:49.920
which I think is a bit of a false dichotomy
711
00:46:49.960 --> 00:46:52.519
because I think abolition is also the right kinds of
712
00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:56.920
reform and moving in a direction of abolition. And then yeah,
713
00:46:56.960 --> 00:47:00.840
mad folks often also hold a broader broad a lens
714
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:04.119
on mad politics and analysis than just the system itself,
715
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:07.400
and look at madness in society rather than just madness
716
00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:11.760
as police by psychiatry. And then there's like a social disability,
717
00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:14.039
which is more a term used in lower middle resource
718
00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:20.360
settings where issues of disability, inclusion and rights and developmental
719
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:27.159
issues around poverty, around housing, employment, education, just access to
720
00:47:27.239 --> 00:47:32.559
basic things like food, water, shelter are really the primary issues.
721
00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:37.119
And so people obviously organize around identities that are related
722
00:47:37.159 --> 00:47:40.159
to their context, but also related to their experiences of
723
00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:42.719
the system and or society as a mad person.
724
00:47:44.960 --> 00:47:47.480
So the research that you're doing, what do you feel
725
00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:51.360
it will change if it does our current understanding about
726
00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:56.360
mental health. When we put up the idea of the
727
00:47:56.400 --> 00:47:59.719
mad movement and the education that you're creating around that,
728
00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:05.159
how will it change the mainstream idea of mental health
729
00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:05.800
or will it?
730
00:48:07.559 --> 00:48:09.559
Yeah, that's such a great that's actually a really great
731
00:48:09.639 --> 00:48:13.079
question and one that I'm always thinking about because of course, research,
732
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:17.239
you know, particularly within mad studies and mad politics really
733
00:48:17.280 --> 00:48:18.760
at the end of the day, needs to be led
734
00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:22.480
by those most impacted, you know, have strong disability justice values.
735
00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:25.000
So for me, research really needs to be a tool
736
00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:28.760
for social change and a tool for redressing those issues
737
00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:33.039
of rights violations and psychiatric oppression. So I think this
738
00:48:33.119 --> 00:48:37.360
particular study from what I know, is you know, relatively
739
00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:42.280
seminal in the sense of an internal an international research
740
00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:45.239
project interviewing forty four folks from around the world in
741
00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:49.199
a variety of cultural and structural contexts. So even just
742
00:48:49.320 --> 00:48:52.639
documenting that and documenting that, hopefully as a book as
743
00:48:52.679 --> 00:48:56.480
it stands alone, will be important in visibilizing the movements.
744
00:48:56.559 --> 00:48:59.559
So even just going back to step one, MAD movements
745
00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:03.000
often very well known amongst other more prominent social movements
746
00:49:03.039 --> 00:49:08.199
such as feminism or clear and trans movements, civil rights movements,
747
00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:11.760
even though MAD movements intersectual all those movements, which is
748
00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:15.719
an important finding as well around cross solidarity movement building
749
00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:20.039
and bridging and organizing. The first step is also visibilizing
750
00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:25.119
that these movements exist and that resistance occurs in these contexts. Obviously,
751
00:49:25.480 --> 00:49:28.719
my hopes so that it introduced, it brings about and
752
00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:32.880
accelerates conversations around madness not being a pathology and illness
753
00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:36.119
disordered disease, and that madness, at least for me and
754
00:49:36.159 --> 00:49:39.719
for many people, is a human difference and diversity, and
755
00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:43.559
hopefully that would lead to the more compassionate understanding and
756
00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:47.559
pathic response to madness rather than the current psychiatric violence
757
00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:51.079
that we see towards mad people who are given this pathological,
758
00:49:51.400 --> 00:49:56.039
pathologizing and dehumanizing label or labels. So there's some of
759
00:49:56.079 --> 00:50:00.280
my hopes as well as collectivizing and bringing together these
760
00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:04.360
stories as also a tool for people to bring community
761
00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:06.559
are One issue is that people feel like there's not
762
00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:09.559
a lot of material or physical community and mad movements.
763
00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:12.599
So I'm hoping that this brings this is a site
764
00:50:12.599 --> 00:50:16.559
in space to bring people together to also transnationally or
765
00:50:16.599 --> 00:50:19.239
internationally help and support each other with a community of
766
00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:22.760
activists that are doing similar work in different contexts. So
767
00:50:23.239 --> 00:50:26.960
some are also bringing together activists also bringing together disparate
768
00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:32.519
movements in a way that can further enhance collectivizing.
769
00:50:33.320 --> 00:50:38.159
Yes, yeah, I agree with Well, thank you Matthew. I
770
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:42.559
still love our conversations. I can't wait to have more
771
00:50:42.559 --> 00:50:46.920
of them. And when you're finished this research, I hope
772
00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:49.320
that you will come back and let us know exactly
773
00:50:49.519 --> 00:50:51.360
what you have come up with.
774
00:50:51.559 --> 00:50:55.440
So thanks so much for Benadine, and you're always a pleasure,
775
00:50:55.480 --> 00:50:59.559
And yeah, look forward to keeping you updated and informed.
776
00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:02.800
And I appreciate you also, you know, doing the work
777
00:51:02.840 --> 00:51:05.400
in disseminating too, because that this is an important part
778
00:51:05.400 --> 00:51:08.199
of it is also disseminating and ensuring that it's accessible
779
00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:10.239
accessible to our communities as well.
780
00:51:11.159 --> 00:51:14.119
Yeah, it's very important to make sure that people get
781
00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:17.000
information and so often. I mean one of the reasons
782
00:51:17.079 --> 00:51:22.159
I started doing this is because getting people information when
783
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:25.320
there was a lot of gatekeeping going on, so you
784
00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:29.000
couldn't really talk to other mental health consumers unless you
785
00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:35.400
were in some kind of organization, because they didn't want
786
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:37.199
us talking to each other, like somehow if we were
787
00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:41.280
talking to each other, we would cause mayhem or kalos
788
00:51:41.440 --> 00:51:44.920
or something else that they couldn't quite control. So this
789
00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:47.760
radio program comes out of directly wanting to ensure that
790
00:51:47.800 --> 00:51:52.920
mental health consumers, in whatever capacity they were in, had
791
00:51:53.000 --> 00:51:57.000
access to information that was not gatekeeped by the mental
792
00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:02.280
health industry. So that's why we're here. Amazing, Thank you,
793
00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:07.000
so were you, and I look forward to our next conversation. Great,
794
00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:10.960
thanks Benadine, thank you, malthew Talk to you soon. Bye.
795
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:16.119
Hey, this is Mark Kilanski from Golden Shoals. You know,
796
00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:19.199
in a world where things are constantly fed to us
797
00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:23.559
through a screen, through an algorithm. Independent radio offers music
798
00:52:23.639 --> 00:52:28.079
and playlists made by friends, neighbors, and humans. I love
799
00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:31.320
it so much, and I really want everybody to continue
800
00:52:31.360 --> 00:52:35.599
to enjoy that in these modern times. Forget Spotify, forget YouTube.
801
00:52:35.800 --> 00:52:38.719
Listen to co Op Radio one hundred point five FM
802
00:52:38.840 --> 00:52:40.599
and co Op Radio dot Org.
803
00:52:40.840 --> 00:52:47.480
I've the storms that shook lass Aul, lost in the dark,
804
00:52:47.480 --> 00:52:53.480
no nowhere to go. I've can be doubts. I've felt
805
00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:59.199
the way oh every time I walked away.
806
00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:07.440
But deep inside there's still a fire, a spark of hope.
807
00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:09.440
They won't expire.
808
00:53:11.400 --> 00:53:12.199
No matter.
809
00:53:14.119 --> 00:53:20.519
No matter how I choose to rise, I choose right now,
810
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:23.239
I won't break.
811
00:53:23.519 --> 00:53:24.360
I won't then.
812
00:53:24.760 --> 00:53:32.119
This is not how much story I will fight for me,
813
00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:35.159
stand up strong.
814
00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:40.360
I will rise even when it all feels wrong.
815
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:44.320
Every tear, every scar, every.
816
00:53:44.079 --> 00:53:47.000
Feelings in my heart, they won't.
817
00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:53.519
Define the soul in me. I will fight for me.
818
00:53:54.199 --> 00:54:00.440
I will believe, I will believe. I've give love, smile.
819
00:54:03.440 --> 00:54:04.960
I've tried so hard.
820
00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:06.079
To not feel alone.
821
00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:11.159
But I am worth the LOVEACKI is.
822
00:54:14.239 --> 00:54:18.960
I am here, I'm meant to live. The road is
823
00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:25.559
along the crime mistakes, but I refuse to let fair
824
00:54:25.719 --> 00:54:34.039
keys me from the life that I deserve. Every step
825
00:54:34.519 --> 00:54:36.280
I'll find my words.
826
00:54:39.519 --> 00:54:41.840
I won't break, go, won't bend.
827
00:54:42.079 --> 00:54:46.800
This is not how much story.
828
00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:49.519
I will fight for me.
829
00:54:51.039 --> 00:54:56.599
Stand up strong, I will rise e the way all
830
00:54:56.760 --> 00:54:58.960
feels wrong as it's here.
831
00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:04.800
Ever scar, every fear on my heart, they won't define
832
00:55:05.079 --> 00:55:10.800
the soul. I will fight for me.
833
00:55:11.519 --> 00:55:12.480
I will believe.
834
00:55:12.760 --> 00:55:15.360
No more running, no more hiding.
835
00:55:15.840 --> 00:55:19.360
I am done with God the silence. I am worthy,
836
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:23.039
I am free you. This is my time. I will
837
00:55:23.119 --> 00:55:29.760
fight for me. I will fight for me. Stand up strong,
838
00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:32.239
I will rise, even.
839
00:55:32.119 --> 00:55:35.000
When it all feels wrong.
840
00:55:35.559 --> 00:55:41.760
Every secret, every scar, every fear on my heart, they will.
841
00:55:41.480 --> 00:55:43.119
Define the soul.
842
00:55:46.159 --> 00:55:48.159
I will fight for me.
843
00:55:48.800 --> 00:55:55.159
I well believe I will fight. I will believe.
844
00:55:56.800 --> 00:56:00.360
This is not time. I will fight me.
845
00:56:02.239 --> 00:56:06.079
Hey, folks, it's Steve ferguson your twenty first century schizoid man,
846
00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:09.440
here to invite you to join me on Tuesday nights
847
00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:12.440
at seven pm for your weekly dose of progressive and
848
00:56:12.519 --> 00:56:17.039
experimental rock. I get crazy guest callers, I fight the turntable,
849
00:56:17.239 --> 00:56:19.159
and I dig up the most obscure music from this
850
00:56:19.239 --> 00:56:25.000
century and last. I've got prog, metal, art rock, math rock, fusion, jazz,
851
00:56:25.079 --> 00:56:29.039
and psychedelia all packed into my weekly hour. You want it,
852
00:56:29.320 --> 00:56:32.599
I've got it. Just name it, I'll play it. That's
853
00:56:32.639 --> 00:56:36.039
Prog Rock Alley on Tuesday nights at seven pm one
854
00:56:36.159 --> 00:56:40.719
hundred point five fm CFRO, Vancouver's co Op Radio.
855
00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:47.280
See you there, and that's our show. My thanks to
856
00:56:47.400 --> 00:56:49.559
Randy Tate for sharing his story about the ways in
857
00:56:49.599 --> 00:56:52.239
which we need to rest and nourish ourselves along the
858
00:56:52.280 --> 00:56:55.480
way in our journey through life, and to Matthew Jackman
859
00:56:55.880 --> 00:56:58.159
for sharing with us the results that are coming through
860
00:56:58.199 --> 00:57:01.920
his research on matt expperiences. We had some issues with
861
00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:04.960
sound today and appreciate your patience as we strive to
862
00:57:05.199 --> 00:57:08.360
fix the issues on this end. Music today was by
863
00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:12.280
Sherry Alrick, Tom O'Dell and Fearless Soul, and my thanks
864
00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:15.280
goes out to you for joining us today. Stay safe
865
00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:20.199
out there. You've just listened to Rethreading Madness, where we
866
00:57:20.280 --> 00:57:23.000
dare to change how we think about mental health. We
867
00:57:23.079 --> 00:57:26.519
air live on Vancouver co Op Radio CFRI one hundred
868
00:57:26.519 --> 00:57:30.280
point five FM every Tuesday at five pm or online
869
00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:31.920
at co opradio dot org.
870
00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:32.840
If you have.
871
00:57:32.840 --> 00:57:36.360
Questions or feedback about this program, or want to share
872
00:57:36.400 --> 00:57:39.000
your story or have something to say to us. We
873
00:57:39.039 --> 00:57:41.280
want to hear from you. You can reach us by
874
00:57:41.360 --> 00:57:45.239
email rethreading Madness at co opradio dot org. This is
875
00:57:45.239 --> 00:57:49.280
Bernardine Fox. We'll be back next week. Until then, will
876
00:57:50.440 --> 00:57:54.159
ever been fir do?
877
00:57:54.920 --> 00:58:01.280
What the hell I'm gonna do? I can't see me
878
00:58:01.519 --> 00:58:10.519
find my way under or over too. Just when I'm
879
00:58:10.559 --> 00:58:16.320
ready to give up the fight, they are when we.
880
00:58:16.559 --> 00:58:21.920
Turn out the lights and it's sorry, it's all right.
881
00:58:22.920 --> 00:58:30.559
Don't you really be alright? Why do I always believe?
882
00:58:31.079 --> 00:58:43.920
But when you're telling me everything's gonna be outright? Yeah,
883
00:58:44.599 --> 00:58:50.920
Why don't I wonder how you know? Surely you don't
884
00:58:51.039 --> 00:58:57.679
have all of the facts. You could be just making
885
00:58:57.880 --> 00:59:02.480
it up. Why I don't I ever think of that.
886
00:59:05.199 --> 00:59:07.199
It's some kind of magic in the.
887
00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:13.400
Words that you breathe saying, baby, take it from me,
888
00:59:14.039 --> 00:59:17.039
it's all right, it's.
889
00:59:16.840 --> 00:59:24.960
All right, don't too a real be alright quite a while.
890
00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:28.440
Always believe that when you tell.
891
00:59:29.559 --> 00:59:37.360
Everything's gonna be off right, everything's gonna be off.
892
00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:41.800
Right than anyone else.
893
00:59:42.400 --> 00:59:47.159
It's such a cliche, just words people say, it'll be
894
00:59:47.519 --> 00:59:57.159
nice somehow, and na far from you. I'm convinced you're