Loosening the Lock: A window into Borderline; A Door into Psychedelic Therapy

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You're listening to Vancouver Co-op Radio, CFRO 100.5 FM. We're
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coming to you from the unceded traditional territories of the Squamish, Musqueam,
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and Tsleil-Waututh Nations around Vancouver, B.C. I'm your host, Bernadine Fox,
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and this is the show that dares to change how
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we think about mental health. Welcome to Rethreading Madness.
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When I've never been further Knowing what the hell I'm
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gonna do When I can't seem to find my way
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Under or over or.
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Through You're listening to Wreath Reading Madness on Vancouver Co-op Radio,
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CFRO 100.5 FM. I'm Bernadine Fox, and today I have
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the pleasure of speaking with Stephan Kirby. Did I say
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your name right? It's Stephan?
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Pretty good. Stephan Kirby.
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Yes, ma'am.
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Great. And you are somebody who does and teaches about
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psychedelic therapy. So I'm hoping you can tell folks a
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little bit more about who you are and what you do.
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Sure.
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My name is Stephan Kirby, as you alluded to just
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a moment ago. I run, well, I'm a co-founder, I
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should say, with my amazing wife, Amber, of the Mindscape
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Psychedelic Institute. My wife is a licensed marriage and family therapist,
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and I am three weeks away from, um, getting, uh,
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my master's degree in marriage and family therapy as well,
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because I saw an overlap in, you know, you know,
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psychedelics and kind of the therapeutic component that I think
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could be missing in a lot of what we're seeing
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here in the underground. Um, so we train therapists and
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facilitators and practitioners and kind of trauma informed manners is
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a good term to work with these safely and ethically.
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And, um, that's what we're most known for.
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And you talk about, and I remember this from when
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we talked before that there's this sort of the underground
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and then people who are doing it, who are not underground.
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Although I haven't heard a term for that. Maybe you
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can just describe what those two things mean for us.
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Well, the, You know, in the U.S.
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Here, at least, we've got a few states where it's
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decriminalized and also authorized for therapeutic use. But for the
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majority of the country, it is still predominantly underground practitioners.
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And again, when we talk about psychedelics, I just want
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to point out it's a broad term. You know, it
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can encompass psilocybin, ketamine, MDMA, DMTs, and a number of
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other psychedelics, so to speak. So it's a broad term,
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but in general here in the US, they're still illegal
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for most folks. So the majority of people that are
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practicing in this space are doing it in, again, what
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we would call the underground. But what we're seeing, especially
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in our courses, we're seeing more and more therapists stepping
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into the space, even if it's not necessarily to facilitate
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or be practitioners, but to at least understand how it's
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impacting it in the mental health space. But yes, there
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are a few spots here in the US where therapists
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are able to do it out in the open, so
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to speak. And again, we've got students from all over
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the world. So that obviously is different from demographic to demographic.
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I know, or at least my understanding is Canada is
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a little bit different because I do have a few
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therapist friends in Canada that are pretty open practitioners. So
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it's still here in the States, still pretty gray in general.
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So are you saying that in Canada.
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It's legalized?
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My understanding is just decriminalized, but I think it's more
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common for therapists to kind of hold themselves out as
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a psychedelic therapist.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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So tell us what is psychedelic therapy? What does that mean?
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Well, again, it's a broad term and it can look
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vastly different depending on the medicine or the psychedelic or drug,
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whatever term you want to use. Um, You know, in general,
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what we're seeing more and more of, and I'll talk
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about the ones that I think are the most prominent
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right now, we're seeing psilocybin is becoming pretty popular in
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the psychedelic and therapeutic space. Petamine, which to me is
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classified as a psychedelic, you know, even though there's some
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debate around that, is legal here in the States. So
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we're seeing, you know, many therapists utilizing that in their
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treatment protocols. And there's a number of others. MDMA, the
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FDA didn't approve MDMA last time it came, you know,
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for approval. We're hoping next time it will be approved.
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And we're seeing a tremendous amount of research going to
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right now into ibogaine. So, you know, and there's some
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other psychedelics that I enjoy working with 5-Ameo DMT that's
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in phase three trials. So it's a broad term, but
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what you can see is, you know, anywhere from kind
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of lower dose protocols, or they're obviously using a lower
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dose of the psychedelic for either, you know, what we
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can call a psycholytic dose where they're actively, you know,
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doing therapeutic interventions with the participant or the client or
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some of the larger dose protocols where there's still some involvement,
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but a lot of it is more of like an
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internal journey or an internal experience for the a participant
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and a therapist is really playing more of a guide
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role and there's everything in between that. So it's really depending,
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it's really most dependent and psychedelic dependent, but in general,
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it's to really kind of loosen up some of these.
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And if you want to use parts work, as far
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as IFS is concerned, some of these parts that people are,
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we call them like sticky parts or these sticky aspects
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of how they view their life, how they identify with
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certain aspects of patterns that have happened to them.
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Throughout their childhood or through their adult life.
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And it provides us a little bit of loosening so
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they can see this information a little bit differently, maybe
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from some different perspectives, and then move through it in
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a way that they weren't able to do without psychedelics.
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Just one thing. Can you define what psilocybin is? Did
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I say that right?
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Psilocybin.
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Yeah, psilocybin for, you know, a lot of folks are listening,
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magic mushrooms. It's a psychedelic mushroom, right?
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Okay, so I have to ask, I mean, all these things,
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all these drugs you're talking about are recreational drugs. How
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did we figure out that recreational drugs had a therapeutic application?
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Well, that is a wonderful question. And again, we're talking
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about a pretty, broad group of different drugs. I think
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what we've seen is the popularity of them has kind
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of shifted.
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You're right.
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In the past, they were considered, some of them were
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considered recreational drugs, even though my personal experience and the
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experience of a lot of the folks that I work
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with would beg to differ that it's not a really
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good time. It could be difficult. It could be deep.
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It could be overwhelming. It can induce fear, anxiety.
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Right?
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So some of them, yes, for example, ketamine and MBMA
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and even psilocybin have been used recreational and still are
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used recreational to some degree. But, you know, I think
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the popularity of them has shifted from recreation in the
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therapeutic sense because it's just what we're seeing is people
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have been using SSRIs or antidepressants and we know that,
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you know, they could be somewhat effective, particularly with people
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with moderate to severe depression. But the average benefit, what
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we're seeing is modest. And the research coming out now
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was really supporting that. So, and they could require a
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lot of trial and error. There's a lot of side effects, relapse, addiction,
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complete relief.
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Yeah.
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Addiction to like serious addictions to some of the antidepressants
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where people are spending, I don't know, it seems like
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20 years. lowering the dose in micro measurements just.
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To get off it.
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Correct.
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And, you know, without universal benefits, you know, a lot
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of the folks that I worked with early on in
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the ayahuasca space and the ayahuasca community, which is a
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form of DMT to kind of simplify that, probably 60%
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or more came in with prescriptions for antidepressants.
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Depressants.
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And a vast majority of those folks ended up titrating
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off those medications, right? So I think what's just happened
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over the decades is more and more people started noticing
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that there was a benefit to them outside of just
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the interesting experience or the trip, so to speak. And
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then more and more people have started doing research. So
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there's been just an immense amount of research over the
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last decade on all these different medicines and how they
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could be effective to people that are struggling with some
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of these things that SSRIs just aren't really solving the
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problem for. And now I think, again, because drug companies
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and a lot of profit groups are interested in how
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they can bring these to the forefront, that now they
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can use research behind mental health, depression, PTSD is a
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big one, veterans, right? They could use these these kind
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of cases to advocate for the legalization of these and potentially.
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Sell them on the market.
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So the other recreational drug out there is pot. At
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least that's what I still call it. Does that have
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any therapeutic value that people have seen?
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It absolutely can.
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You know, it's And to me, it's an interesting one
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because on certain doses, it could absolutely feel very psychedelic.
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You know, again, how is it being utilized? To me,
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it's really what's the intent of the use, right? And
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I think that's what separates it in all of these
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from recreational use versus therapeutic use or just, you know,
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transformational use in general. So if you're just, you know,
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smoking pot on a day-to-day basis because, you know, you
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enjoy it and that's absolutely fine, but that's not really
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the same thing. But there's absolutely a lot of practitioners
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and therapists even that utilize it in different doses, very
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similar to what they would with some of these other medicines.
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So again, they all could have a therapeutic use, but
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they also could be abused and used in recreational settings.
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So the other burning question I have is, Because when
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we talked before, you talked about how people will take
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this medication, I guess you call it a medication, a psychedelic,
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and that they go on a journey. I think that
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was the term you used. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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And that the therapist's function really is to just be
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in the room. It's not to necessarily guide or control
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what's going on in that space for that person. Again,
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correct me if I'm wrong, because I've not done this
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type of therapy. So how does it transform from being
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the not very nice trip that it was with recreational
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to somehow becoming a therapeutic benefit to people? What is
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the mechanism that changes that?
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Well, again, I think it goes back to the idea
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of what the intention is. So me taking psilocybin and
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walking in my backyard and connecting with the trees or
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feeling the breeze or the sun on my face, that
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could absolutely be therapeutic. But if you're coming to my
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office and we have a designated time and we know
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that we're going to explore some of the topics and
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issues that we brought up in sessions, obviously that has
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a different feel to it in general.
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Right.
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So the set and setting.
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And the intention in general really do kind of create
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the environment for what are we going to do with this.
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And again, different dosage creates different outcomes. It could absolutely
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be a deep journey. Again, if we're talking something like, well,
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any of them, psilocybin, for example, if I'm working with
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somebody and I want to have more of a psychotic
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type conversation, a therapeutic conversation, we don't want them in
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a dose range where You know, they're really struggling to,
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you know, kind of maintain composure or their thoughts or
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they're actually going on a journey at that stage. On
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the larger doses, you really want folks to kind of
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go inside and make it more of an internal process,
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even though they will express themselves, etc., But in these
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lower doses, it's just enough, again, to kind of loosen
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up some of the material and allow them to, again,
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have this psychedelic conversation about what they're feeling. What are
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they noticing? We can do some somatic work. We can
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do a number of different interventions. So again, it's really
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important as we have this conversation about psychedelics, it really
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is driven by the individual psychedelic and the.
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Dose associated with it. And then the set and setting
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and the intentions.
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So somebody could come in and say, I really want
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to get to this issue that I'm having, and that
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would be like the intention. So the dose, the psychedelic
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would be applied, and then the intention would be to
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go towards that issue itself.
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Correct.
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And, you know, to what you mentioned earlier, the guide,
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the facilitator or the therapist, if we're using those slightly
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interchangeably to some degree, even though there's a vast difference
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between them, but all of them to some degree play
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a similar role. If, you know, somebody is in my
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office and, you know, they're, they're sharing their experience, um,
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you know, either childhood wounds or abandonment, whatever it may be,
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whatever we're, we're working on.
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Absolutely.
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There's some level of interaction, um, And again, what we
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find in some of these larger doses, there just tends
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to be potentially a little less interaction, but there could
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also be more need for care and grounding and support
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in the sense of making sure that they feel safe
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and seen so they can relax. And I think that's
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a lot of the folks that I integrate who have
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had difficult experiences.
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It's usually because they did it by themselves.
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And then fear could creep in and then we start
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looping on fear and then you're in, you know, pretty
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good path for having a very difficult potential experience versus
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that was happening in my office. You know, I've got
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the capacity and the ability to make them feel safe
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or at least provide a container where they will feel safer.
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Because they're witness, they know that somebody is there, something
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is going wrong, and I could help prevent some of
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that looping. And so then they could allow themselves to
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have that experience a little bit differently.
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It sounds like part of what, and again, correct me
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if I'm wrong. It sounds to me like part of
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what happens is that the walls that we keep up
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to protect ourselves as children, and they sort of become
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entrenched as adults. That these plant medicines or whatever you
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call them, have a way of getting past those walls
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or breaking down those walls.
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Is that correct?
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Is that a way that you would describe it or
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how does it work?
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Yeah, I think I think it.
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It starts with people really understanding how their brain operates.
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And I know that sounds silly to some people, but
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understanding that you are, everyone even.
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Listening, you and myself, we are.
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Who we are because we've had thoughts, emotions, and experiences
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since childhood. And you could even go back into, you know,
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in the womb, right? All these experiences create memories. They
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create emotions attached to those memories. They create experiences. And
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eventually that, you know, or not eventually, it leads to
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creating who we are right now. And the analogy I
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think we used when we talked last time, if you
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were born in Japan, you would be a different person
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than you are right now, the person that I'm talking to,
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because you would have different experiences, different, you know, imprints.
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So once you understand that the person that you are
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right now is just a conglomeration of thoughts, emotions, and experiences, right?
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And now you're essentially playing out that program.
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So I call that the programming.
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Some people could call it the ego, whatever term feels
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right for you. So when you're able to witness that
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in these psychedelics, as the brain activity is increased, you're
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using different aspects of your brain, you're starting to notice
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these things. Why do I have this thought about this?
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Why was that helping me? How is that potentially hurting me?
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Where did this thought come from? Is it even true?
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And so it's this loosening of memory. And then it's
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also to me providing more perspective, right? For example, I've
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got a poster on my wall right now of a
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beach with a palm tree on it. It's just a
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flat picture of a palm tree, right? Under the medicine,
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that palm tree could potentially be in, palm tree is
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just an analogy for, you know, something that you're working on,
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something potentially that you're struggling with, right? But we're using
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the palm tree as the analogy, right? When now under
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the medicine, I'm able to see that palm tree from
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a number of different perspectives. I could walk all the
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way around it. I could see it from the top,
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the side, the roots. So it's the same issue or
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same topic. But now I have more information and more
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perspectives to view that with. And that information sometimes provides
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you with this perspective. that makes more sense to me now.
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I see why I'm doing this, or I see why
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that happens, or I see why that event is impacting me.
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And I could see how that now is impacting my life.
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And so that provides a little bit of intellectual information,
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but also a lot of times there's emotions attached to that.
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And emotions are always going to override like intellectual information, right?
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So as people are actually having an experience under the
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medicine of these thoughts that they had, thoughts just being
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intellectual information, that emotion, that experience is going to override
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that data.
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It's more true. And I think that's what's happening is it's.
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Loosening memory and then providing an alternative and providing space
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for you to reinterpret some of these things differently or
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see them from a different angle and different perspective.
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Does that make sense?
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Yeah, it does. Absolutely. And I want to build on
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that when we come back, but we just need to
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take a little break. And we'll be right back, folks.
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Hi, everybody. My name is. I'm a member of the
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Squamish Nation and the Yagalanis Clan of the Haida Nation.
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You're listening to Co-op Radio, CFRO 100.5 FM. We live, work, play,
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and broadcast. from the traditional, ancestral, and unceded territories of
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the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh Nations.
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You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver Co-op Radio, CFRO 100.5 FM.
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I'm Bernadine Fox, and I have the pleasure of speaking
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with Stefan Kirby from the Mindscape Psychedelic Institute. We're talking
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about what is psychedelic therapy and what is it good for? Stefan,
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from the last conversation, it made me think that what's
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happening in the psychedelic therapy, in the sessions, is that
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you are encouraging or promoting a form of metacognition where
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people are able to step back from their own ideas
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about what they're thinking or seeing or feeling and look
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at it from another perspective and maybe decide whether or
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not that is appropriate or not or right or, you know,
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doing them harm or promoting their life. So am I
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right about that? You tell me if I'm wrong.
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Oh, okay. No, no, no.
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I think, you know, and that really leads to the,
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you know, as you were saying that, just being honest
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with the listeners, I got a little giddy and a
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little excited because it's the part of this work that
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I'm most excited about.
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Right.
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And you mentioned that this idea of metacognition, the amount
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of thoughts that people have, and there's different numbers for it,
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but it could be anywhere from 10 to 50,000 thoughts
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a day. They're the same thoughts that you had yesterday,
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which are the same thoughts that you had the day before.
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So I could tell you the outcome of where you're
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going to be tomorrow because it's going to be the
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same thoughts, right? Most people are completely unaware of their thoughts.
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They may notice that they're having thoughts, but they're tied
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to the thoughts. They're experiencing the emotions associated with the thoughts.
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So for me and my work, step one is helping
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just slow down and notice the thought without falling into it,
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noticing it. Even using that term, I want you to
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notice it. And then notice how your body is feeling
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that thought, so to speak. How is it reacting to
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that thought, right? And if you could find that little
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bit of space, that little bit of gap between the thought,
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you'll start realizing that your brain is producing these thoughts.
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Even as the folks are listening to me right now,
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they're probably having thoughts. Is he going to keep talking
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about this? I wonder what's for dinner, right? You didn't
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think that thought.
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It just appeared. It just showed up.
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And again, with that thought as some sort of reaction.
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Most people are living their entire lives being directed and
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run by these thoughts. And, you know, it's like if
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I had a GPS in my car and I said, look,
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I'm trying to get to Home Depot to get some lumber,
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and the GPS ended up taking me to I don't know,
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Burger King, right? That's a faulty GPS. But most people
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live that way. I don't want to think this thing.
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I don't want to feel this thing. But they're having
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the thoughts and the association with the thoughts. So most
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people are trapped in this loop of unconscious thoughts. And
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until they could become aware of those, in my opinion,
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whatever intervention you want to use from a therapeutic standpoint,
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it's going to fall because they're not aware that they're
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having these unconscious thoughts and how much these unconscious thoughts
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are really driving them. So it goes from metacognition to
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like cognitive diffusion of like, you're not these thoughts. These
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thoughts are all based on past thoughts, emotions, and experiences.
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And now they're just repeating themselves and you're repeating your experience.
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To those thoughts. So yes, I think metacognition is the
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perfect term.
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So what does, what is this therapy good for? What
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is the target issues that you know that it works with?
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Yeah, I mean, from the evidence, we know, you know,
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if we're talking about different ones, psilocybin, again, we know
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controlled studies show, you know, rapid and sometimes like sustained
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reductions in depression, even treatment-resistant depression after, you know, potentially
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one or even a few supported sessions, right?
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That's very promising. It's still investigational.
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It's not yet FDA-approved. Um, like a lot of these medicines,
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a lot of this is anecdotal, but, um, there's early
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on research and we're starting to see what we in
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the field already know to be true. Um, ketamine we
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know can reduce severe depressive symptoms faster than again, conventional antidepressants,
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sometimes within hours, sometimes within days. And again, especially important
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for treatment resistant depression. Um, that one is FDA approved
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in the form of esketamine, um, MDMA, right? We, seeing
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the data, we've seen the research for its impact on
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severe PTSD. And again, that was another great example where
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it helps, you know, the participants really engage with any
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traumatic material, right? A lot less fear, a lot less defensiveness.
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So again, as they're having this experience, there's a little
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bit of space between the experience that they're recognizing and
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how it's impacting them. So we're able to work through
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that material significantly different. And again, that one was declined
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by the FDA in 2024, but, um, it looks like
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it's going to come up again soon. The other ones
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are still, um, being tested for a number of different things.
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5-MeO-DMT and endymethyltryptoline, you know, all these would just be
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anecdotal evidence that I could share with you. And there's some,
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some trials, but yeah, we're starting to see research and
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looking at, um, eating disorders, um, you know, down the line,
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obsessive compulsive disorders. So the more and more that these
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things become popular, or right now ibogaine, because we had
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the huge opiate crisis here in the States, we're seeing
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ibogaine become very, you know, for traumatic brain injury, addiction.
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So there are more and more research is coming out
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for how these can be utilized.
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Right.
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So the difficult conversation that I have to have because
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of the other work that I do, and I'm not
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doing a radio host around therapy harm. And of course,
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psychedelic therapy does come up. And when we talked about
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it before, you did talk about sort of how the
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underground part of it came up. I'm not going to
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go there because I'm not really sure you can go there,
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but I'm not really sure what I'm talking about. So
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you have therapists who are regulated, licensed therapists who are
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doing this.
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Work, yes?
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Yes, as well as underground practitioners.
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Okay.
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So because this keeps coming up, it's important for us
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to also talk about the possibility that it's used like
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any therapeutic technique can be used to harm somebody. And
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I know therapists don't think their techniques harm, but I
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can assure you after years of listening to them, some
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of them do. So what should somebody be talking to
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their therapist about to kind of get their own sense
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of whether or not this would work for them or
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what they should be looking for in terms of keeping
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themselves safe? What would you suggest they do?
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Yeah, and I think it's an important conversation, you know,
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and we can look at safety from a number of
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different angles. We'll just touch on a few of them.
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You know, I think We as potentially participants in the
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experience and not the facilitator or the therapist themselves, but
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us that may want to step into that space and
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potentially utilize them. We have some level of responsibility to
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do a little of our own research as well. I
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think you should absolutely be screening for the right facilitator
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or screening for the right therapist, because I think. You know,
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I think there's a lot of unqualified facilitators and therapists
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in these medicine spaces, right? And a profound psychedelic experience,
479
00:27:54.299 --> 00:27:58.240
somebody having one doesn't necessarily qualify someone to treat trauma, right?
480
00:27:58.279 --> 00:28:01.359
So you see a lot of poorly trained practitioners, you know,
481
00:28:01.380 --> 00:28:06.460
they can miss emergencies, can exceed their competence or really
482
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:10.609
cause even more psychological or physical harm. And so that's
483
00:28:10.769 --> 00:28:13.809
one of my biggest concerns right now is, you know,
484
00:28:13.829 --> 00:28:17.529
a lot of folks that I train, they come in
485
00:28:17.589 --> 00:28:19.880
with like what we call like the Dunning-Kruger effect. It's
486
00:28:19.900 --> 00:28:21.619
like you don't know what you don't know, but you
487
00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:24.259
think you know more than you do because you had
488
00:28:24.279 --> 00:28:27.759
your own psychedelic experience, right? So you've had one or
489
00:28:27.799 --> 00:28:31.240
two maybe profound experiences and you feel, I want to
490
00:28:31.289 --> 00:28:34.089
share this with other people. Sometimes it comes from a
491
00:28:34.109 --> 00:28:38.460
good place. Sometimes it comes from, you know, a need
492
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:40.980
to be important and need to be seen, need to
493
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:43.740
be validated, which is.
494
00:28:43.740 --> 00:28:44.900
Very, very concerning.
495
00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:49.599
There's obviously power and boundary violations, right? Participants are highly
496
00:28:49.700 --> 00:28:53.160
vulnerable during altered states, right? And that's going to create risks,
497
00:28:53.799 --> 00:28:58.859
you know, around manipulation, trigger warning, you know, sexual misconduct,
498
00:28:58.980 --> 00:29:05.079
financial exploitation, or even like this imposing of facilitators spiritual
499
00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:08.400
beliefs this is the nature of reality this is how
500
00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:11.339
you should interpret your experience let me be.
501
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:14.059
Your guru right.
502
00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:19.450
Um and you know i think those are you know
503
00:29:19.549 --> 00:29:21.109
some of the major ones and a lot of it
504
00:29:21.130 --> 00:29:26.029
could start with improper screening from both sides so Folks
505
00:29:26.109 --> 00:29:29.210
that are listening that maybe are considering stepping into the
506
00:29:29.250 --> 00:29:32.410
space absolutely do really good screening on the person you're
507
00:29:32.569 --> 00:29:38.349
considering sitting with. And for facilitators and therapists, they absolutely
508
00:29:38.390 --> 00:29:42.559
need to do a tremendous. amount of screening on the
509
00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:44.500
people that are coming to step into them. Not just,
510
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:51.859
you know, pharmacologically right medications, but physiologically emotional, because these
511
00:29:51.940 --> 00:29:56.569
medicines if done improperly could absolutely destabilize somebody, especially those
512
00:29:56.619 --> 00:30:01.390
with like that are vulnerable to like psychosis, mania. um, uh,
513
00:30:01.490 --> 00:30:05.150
serious cardiovascular problems, uh, medication interactions.
514
00:30:05.170 --> 00:30:06.589
So there's, there's lots.
515
00:30:07.089 --> 00:30:09.839
So it's not something that I would recommend, recommend anybody
516
00:30:09.890 --> 00:30:14.220
casually doing. Um, so it just takes a little bit
517
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:17.000
of time and a little bit of research. And that's
518
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:19.420
the importance of, in my opinion of these being a
519
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:23.269
little bit more well-regulated and that's kind of the fall
520
00:30:23.289 --> 00:30:26.369
we're in right now because they're not, you know, we,
521
00:30:26.450 --> 00:30:29.079
we call it the wild, wild West out there still. Um,
522
00:30:30.150 --> 00:30:33.779
And we'd be very hesitant of sitting with somebody I
523
00:30:33.900 --> 00:30:36.900
didn't have a good relationship with and I didn't trust
524
00:30:36.980 --> 00:30:37.720
and I didn't know.
525
00:30:38.180 --> 00:30:39.259
Right, right.
526
00:30:39.559 --> 00:30:42.920
So those are all wonderful suggestions.
527
00:30:42.980 --> 00:30:46.160
I'm just going to add the one of doing some
528
00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:49.920
homework around boundary violations in therapy so that if it
529
00:30:50.019 --> 00:30:53.299
starts to happen, you can recognize it when it starts
530
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:56.480
to happen. Other than that, I have heard wonderful things
531
00:30:56.839 --> 00:31:01.150
from people who've done psychiatric I'm sorry, psychedelic.
532
00:31:01.990 --> 00:31:04.970
Therapy that they have done amazing things.
533
00:31:05.069 --> 00:31:08.450
So I'm not promoting it necessarily because I haven't done
534
00:31:08.490 --> 00:31:13.230
it myself, but it does sound like something that is
535
00:31:13.299 --> 00:31:18.319
going to be beneficial for people. So thank you, Stefan,
536
00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:22.950
for coming and chatting with me about this. I appreciate it.
537
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:26.359
And I hope to have a chat with you again
538
00:31:26.380 --> 00:31:27.019
in the future.
539
00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:29.430
So, and good luck with your licensing.
540
00:31:31.490 --> 00:31:33.089
Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me.
541
00:31:33.539 --> 00:31:34.039
You're welcome.
542
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:34.579
Okay.
543
00:31:34.599 --> 00:31:35.559
And we'll be right back, folks.
544
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:45.660
If you were swimming upstream from the sea or an
545
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:48.690
orca swimming out in the blue, you'd want to listen
546
00:31:48.710 --> 00:31:50.769
to Co-op Radio because we've been listening to you.
547
00:31:50.849 --> 00:31:51.970
If you want to know where your.
548
00:31:51.869 --> 00:31:53.589
Music has come from or where your politicians have been,
549
00:31:54.390 --> 00:31:56.849
Co-op Radio has got that information without the media.
550
00:31:56.890 --> 00:31:59.750
We're not tied to big corporations, so we can think
551
00:31:59.769 --> 00:32:00.809
of the truth.
552
00:32:01.450 --> 00:32:05.450
Community voices you won't hear except in our radio booths.
553
00:32:05.670 --> 00:32:08.990
If you want to own a radio station, be part
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00:32:09.130 --> 00:32:09.710
of 48 Cooperation.
555
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Keep Co-op Radio alive.
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00:32:12.180 --> 00:32:13.900
Keep Co-op Radio alive.
557
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:17.319
Keep Co-op Radio alive. Keep Co-op Radio alive.
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Keep Co-op Radio alive.
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Keep Co-op Radio alive.
560
00:32:20.579 --> 00:32:23.559
100.5! You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver Co-op Radio,
561
00:32:23.579 --> 00:32:28.200
CFRO 100.5 FM. I'm Bernadine Fox, and today I have
562
00:32:28.259 --> 00:32:32.170
the pleasure of speaking with Pippa Scott, who has written
563
00:32:32.329 --> 00:32:35.960
a book and Pippa, I don't have the name of
564
00:32:35.980 --> 00:32:38.500
the book in front of me. I don't know why
565
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:40.660
I don't have.
566
00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:42.700
Paper girls burn paper girls burn.
567
00:32:42.779 --> 00:32:46.519
That's why, because I got it confused with, um, what
568
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:50.349
I thought was a performance. So paper girls burn.
569
00:32:51.329 --> 00:32:52.910
Can you tell people a little bit about yourself?
570
00:32:54.029 --> 00:32:59.789
Yeah. Um, so I was born in Vancouver. Um, And
571
00:32:59.809 --> 00:33:03.130
then when I was young, I moved to the UK
572
00:33:03.210 --> 00:33:07.940
for my father's work. And then, yeah, grew up in
573
00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:11.380
the UK. And a lot of it is in the book.
574
00:33:11.559 --> 00:33:15.000
Went to a boarding school. Like, I wouldn't say it's
575
00:33:15.259 --> 00:33:19.529
exactly a Hogwarts experience, but went to boarding school in
576
00:33:19.549 --> 00:33:20.390
the UK.
577
00:33:20.089 --> 00:33:20.650
And then.
578
00:33:22.210 --> 00:33:24.710
Worked in the entertainment industry for a while. So lived
579
00:33:25.029 --> 00:33:27.250
in various places like California and New York.
580
00:33:28.369 --> 00:33:29.099
And eventually.
581
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:33.539
uh, had a, had two children and relocated back, uh,
582
00:33:33.579 --> 00:33:34.900
to the West coast to Vancouver.
583
00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:40.589
And how long have you been back in Vancouver?
584
00:33:42.170 --> 00:33:43.730
Um, about seven years now.
585
00:33:44.150 --> 00:33:47.369
Oh, okay. That's a good amount of time to decide
586
00:33:47.410 --> 00:33:49.779
whether or not you're in the right place for yourself
587
00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:58.460
and your kids. Um, you are here to talk about borderline. Um, and, um,
588
00:34:00.609 --> 00:34:03.630
I guess really what I want you to do is
589
00:34:03.730 --> 00:34:09.090
to define or describe the experience of having borderline. What
590
00:34:09.150 --> 00:34:13.789
is it like from the inside out?
591
00:34:15.010 --> 00:34:20.239
For any Spinal Tap fans, the movie, there's a scene
592
00:34:20.260 --> 00:34:25.579
where he's talking about having the amp go up to
593
00:34:26.739 --> 00:34:29.739
his goes higher than the traditional one. And I feel
594
00:34:29.780 --> 00:34:33.730
like for those people, or certainly my experience of having
595
00:34:33.909 --> 00:34:40.519
BPD is like having your dial turned up chronically stuck
596
00:34:41.019 --> 00:34:48.059
to the highest output, highest setting. So everything impacts you
597
00:34:48.719 --> 00:34:54.730
at a much higher intensity and your nervous system has
598
00:34:54.769 --> 00:34:59.699
to manage these huge tsunami waves of feeling emotions, at
599
00:34:59.739 --> 00:35:04.309
this much higher input. And that can cause to the
600
00:35:04.369 --> 00:35:11.449
outside world, seemingly people that are described as overreactive or
601
00:35:11.889 --> 00:35:14.949
too sensitive or too much. But in reality, it is
602
00:35:15.010 --> 00:35:18.309
your lived experience of the lens in which you view
603
00:35:18.329 --> 00:35:18.710
the world.
604
00:35:21.489 --> 00:35:25.840
How long would you say you've had borderline? Or when
605
00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:26.599
were you diagnosed?
606
00:35:27.739 --> 00:35:32.440
I was not diagnosed until I was 35, and I'm
607
00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:39.210
43 now. I've had various diagnoses over the years, including cyclothymia,
608
00:35:39.230 --> 00:35:42.349
which is a mild version of bipolar in my early 20s,
609
00:35:42.389 --> 00:35:49.869
and often a misdiagnosis for BPD. I feel like my
610
00:35:49.929 --> 00:35:52.820
experience is that I've, to a certain degree, I've always
611
00:35:53.059 --> 00:35:57.079
had it, or the the intensity in which I experienced
612
00:35:57.119 --> 00:36:00.079
the world, but in terms of an actual diagnosis, it
613
00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:03.820
didn't come until much, much later. There, there are arguments
614
00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:09.570
currently about when someone actually can be diagnosed with it
615
00:36:09.630 --> 00:36:11.989
because a lot of the times it can be misinterpreted
616
00:36:12.070 --> 00:36:18.849
for normal development stages. But yeah, I've certainly felt like
617
00:36:18.909 --> 00:36:20.469
this intensity my entire life.
618
00:36:22.659 --> 00:36:27.619
There are some schools of thought that say often people,
619
00:36:27.780 --> 00:36:32.780
mostly women, who have autism and ADHD. There's an acronym
620
00:36:32.820 --> 00:36:36.679
for it. I think it's ODDHAB, something like that. I'm
621
00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:43.099
sure I bastardized that. And they often get misdiagnosed with borderline.
622
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:48.500
And I can see why, given your description, because people
623
00:36:48.619 --> 00:36:54.449
with autism have incredible sensitivity. their sense of taste is
624
00:36:54.860 --> 00:36:58.059
higher than most people. They can hear better than most people.
625
00:36:58.139 --> 00:37:03.940
They can, um, uh, sometimes see better than most people, uh,
626
00:37:04.099 --> 00:37:06.989
you know, that kind of thing. So, um, and certainly
627
00:37:07.050 --> 00:37:11.269
ADHD has its own, um, characteristics. How, how do you,
628
00:37:11.750 --> 00:37:16.730
have you been, um, has anybody looked at you and said,
629
00:37:17.309 --> 00:37:21.570
maybe you're also autistic and have ADHD? Has it been
630
00:37:21.659 --> 00:37:25.320
some kind of clarifying diagnoses around that?
631
00:37:26.780 --> 00:37:33.780
So both my children are on the spectrum and my
632
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:37.250
son has ADHD. I have also been, one of my
633
00:37:37.269 --> 00:37:41.949
diagnoses is ADHD as well. And there certainly is a
634
00:37:42.070 --> 00:37:46.880
suggestion that I could also be on the spectrum too.
635
00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:52.820
There is so much overlap between, like you said, Being
636
00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:57.340
on the spectrum, sensory challenges, generalized anxiety disorder, which I
637
00:37:57.380 --> 00:38:01.420
also have, BPD, there is so much overlap. So to
638
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:04.659
a certain degree in our current mental health field, it
639
00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:09.449
is somewhat subjective and what practitioner you are seeing. Also,
640
00:38:09.489 --> 00:38:15.070
there's been a lot of the basis for autism diagnosis
641
00:38:15.130 --> 00:38:20.659
was on a traditional male presentation. And so I think
642
00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:22.840
as they learn more about that and then apply it.
643
00:38:22.900 --> 00:38:29.929
So I'm definitely open-minded, but it's very unclear to me
644
00:38:29.989 --> 00:38:35.030
whether these things just have a lot of overlap. Because
645
00:38:35.110 --> 00:38:43.449
even though my children are on the spectrum, my ex-husband
646
00:38:44.010 --> 00:38:49.400
seems to be on his side too. So it's very unclear. Um,
647
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:54.380
but either way, I still sort of follow the same,
648
00:38:55.389 --> 00:38:57.750
what I would do either way in terms of trying
649
00:38:57.769 --> 00:39:01.170
to help myself. Um, it is something I've also considered,
650
00:39:01.829 --> 00:39:06.679
you know, being assessed, but as a 43 year old, um,
651
00:39:07.260 --> 00:39:11.579
the cost and doing it privately, it's quite prohibitive. So
652
00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:12.579
I'm just not sure.
653
00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:15.639
Yeah. It's $ 4, 000 to $ 6, 000 if people want to know
654
00:39:15.659 --> 00:39:20.010
in BC to get an autism diagnosis as an adult
655
00:39:20.530 --> 00:39:25.369
and even as a child because the lineups to get
656
00:39:25.489 --> 00:39:30.690
that testing done are sometimes very extreme and kids get
657
00:39:30.730 --> 00:39:31.969
lost in that process.
658
00:39:32.590 --> 00:39:35.530
So, yes, one practitioner did suggest it to me, but
659
00:39:35.610 --> 00:39:38.690
it is also all of my symptoms are also explained
660
00:39:38.829 --> 00:39:40.389
by everything else that I already have.
661
00:39:40.449 --> 00:39:45.829
So I'm unclear. That's OK. So what happened at 35
662
00:39:45.829 --> 00:39:48.610
that you ended up with a diagnosis of borderline?
663
00:39:51.070 --> 00:39:55.510
So in the book, I talk about a particular, you know, these,
664
00:39:56.389 --> 00:39:59.230
I won't go into too much detail, but maladaptive behaviors
665
00:39:59.289 --> 00:40:06.139
that I go through when a man walks away or
666
00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:12.119
leaves and what that does to me. And my abandonment
667
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:16.380
fears were just so intense. And You know, having a
668
00:40:16.599 --> 00:40:22.889
bipolar diagnosis for cyclothymia, it just didn't explain all these
669
00:40:22.989 --> 00:40:26.449
other things. And so when people in my life started
670
00:40:26.570 --> 00:40:33.159
to suggest borderline, at first the label was so confusing
671
00:40:33.260 --> 00:40:37.619
to me. It just didn't, I didn't properly understand it.
672
00:40:37.739 --> 00:40:40.719
When someone later told me, oh, it's really should be
673
00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:46.510
called an emotional dysregulation. condition, then I was like, oh, well, yeah,
674
00:40:46.690 --> 00:40:50.190
that makes sense. So once I got assessed for that,
675
00:40:51.090 --> 00:40:52.969
it just kind of put some of the puzzle pieces
676
00:40:53.030 --> 00:40:56.900
into place that I feel the other diagnoses had missed.
677
00:40:59.739 --> 00:41:02.539
Since your diagnosis, what has changed?
678
00:41:07.219 --> 00:41:15.539
So I did some supportive group therapy And some of the,
679
00:41:16.260 --> 00:41:19.559
it's called electrical behavioral therapy. Some of the skills in
680
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:26.480
terms of distress tolerance were extremely useful to me. Also
681
00:41:26.559 --> 00:41:29.380
some somatic work that I did with my nervous system,
682
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:35.960
I have found extremely helpful. I don't feel like I
683
00:41:36.199 --> 00:41:40.519
am quote unquote fixed. I think this is something that
684
00:41:40.860 --> 00:41:42.679
is just going to be a lifelong thing.
685
00:41:45.179 --> 00:41:45.539
Journey.
686
00:41:46.420 --> 00:41:52.000
But definitely, I feel like I had a greater understanding
687
00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:58.119
and other people that understood and sort of tools to
688
00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:01.880
work with in a way that I had done a
689
00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:05.219
lot of talk therapy in my past. And it just
690
00:42:05.800 --> 00:42:09.019
wasn't really doing much for me. It was good to
691
00:42:09.059 --> 00:42:11.550
get things off my chest, but it wasn't doing enough
692
00:42:11.590 --> 00:42:13.610
to help actually manage anything.
693
00:42:16.489 --> 00:42:21.929
So DBT has good and bad reviews to it. What
694
00:42:21.949 --> 00:42:23.190
part of it worked for you?
695
00:42:26.289 --> 00:42:30.989
Just finding some, like, I think in those moments where
696
00:42:31.030 --> 00:42:35.489
there's just this flood of emotion, it can feel very
697
00:42:35.570 --> 00:42:40.260
helpless and just feeling like you have something that you
698
00:42:40.300 --> 00:42:49.630
can turn to whether it's a breathing exercise. Some people
699
00:42:49.690 --> 00:42:53.550
find cold water to the face helps them to just
700
00:42:53.650 --> 00:42:58.250
instantly calm down. There's some medical science behind that. I
701
00:42:58.289 --> 00:43:02.710
don't really love putting splashing water in my face in
702
00:43:02.769 --> 00:43:06.670
those moments. But an ice pack to the back of
703
00:43:06.750 --> 00:43:10.739
the head sometimes you know, really helps me to stop
704
00:43:10.780 --> 00:43:14.239
hyper fixating. So I think it was more for me
705
00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:20.510
just having something to try, um, that I didn't have before.
706
00:43:22.670 --> 00:43:28.380
Let's go back to, um, sort of your experience of borderline. Um,
707
00:43:28.599 --> 00:43:30.519
one of the things in the written material that came
708
00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:35.449
through is, um, you know, the messiness of your life.
709
00:43:35.650 --> 00:43:37.989
And this is part of what you write about in
710
00:43:38.110 --> 00:43:42.869
Paper Girls Burn. And the sort of decades long, I
711
00:43:42.889 --> 00:43:46.269
think you say in here, quest for love, understanding and validation.
712
00:43:46.690 --> 00:43:50.510
That all seems like, of course, you want those things.
713
00:43:50.550 --> 00:43:53.679
We all want those things. What happened for you when
714
00:43:53.699 --> 00:43:57.260
you didn't get those things from the person that you
715
00:43:57.280 --> 00:43:58.280
were expecting it from?
716
00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:05.610
Well, I don't, I mean, my experience of that was
717
00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:08.860
only contained to what I knew when I was younger.
718
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:15.800
I think there was a lot of struggle in my
719
00:44:15.860 --> 00:44:25.230
family unit, perhaps with my parents' own capacity issues and
720
00:44:26.190 --> 00:44:29.269
challenges and not really getting to the bottom of what
721
00:44:29.590 --> 00:44:32.690
was internally difficult happening for me as a kid and
722
00:44:32.710 --> 00:44:37.550
just feeling completely swallowed up by pain and discomfort and
723
00:44:37.889 --> 00:44:42.030
not really having the understanding or outlet of what to
724
00:44:42.090 --> 00:44:50.050
do with that. Wanting to find a sense of an anchor, stability,
725
00:44:50.650 --> 00:44:54.980
security that I felt that I lacked in childhood because
726
00:44:55.059 --> 00:45:03.780
we were constantly moving was something that I adapted to
727
00:45:03.860 --> 00:45:07.019
try to find in other people. If I can't be
728
00:45:07.099 --> 00:45:10.860
a safe, secure place, then somebody else should be. And
729
00:45:10.900 --> 00:45:13.019
I mean, that does make sense as a child. That's
730
00:45:13.079 --> 00:45:17.269
why you look to your parents. But our parents are
731
00:45:17.309 --> 00:45:20.929
humans too, and they have their flaws and their capacity issues.
732
00:45:21.329 --> 00:45:24.929
And I couldn't get that anchor there. So there were
733
00:45:24.969 --> 00:45:28.579
a lot of attachment issues there. in, in my childhood.
734
00:45:28.780 --> 00:45:32.280
And then I over tried to overcompensate for those as
735
00:45:32.320 --> 00:45:35.219
an adult. And as you said, these, these, the quest
736
00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:41.429
for love validation acceptance is a very, very common human need.
737
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:44.210
They're all common human needs. And I, and I hope
738
00:45:45.010 --> 00:45:48.269
that in, in writing about all of this in the book,
739
00:45:48.349 --> 00:45:54.889
that it's maybe create some empathy and understanding that it's, um,
740
00:45:56.239 --> 00:45:59.329
I've just so many times, you know, fallen down the
741
00:45:59.369 --> 00:46:02.949
rabbit hole of seeing something on a Reddit thread or something.
742
00:46:03.170 --> 00:46:07.889
And it's like the humanity is stripped away from the
743
00:46:07.929 --> 00:46:16.900
person who's experiencing whatever condition has been assigned. And there's
744
00:46:16.940 --> 00:46:20.960
just so much more to it. And I think, yeah,
745
00:46:21.739 --> 00:46:23.980
I don't know if that fully answered your question, but.
746
00:46:24.449 --> 00:46:25.849
You answered it beautifully, actually.
747
00:46:25.869 --> 00:46:28.130
You basically said we need to look at the human
748
00:46:28.170 --> 00:46:36.320
behind the diagnosis. And I absolutely believe that. You have
749
00:46:36.360 --> 00:46:37.340
a book launch coming up.
750
00:46:38.239 --> 00:46:38.440
Yes.
751
00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:40.920
When is that book launch?
752
00:46:41.019 --> 00:46:46.760
Friday, September 25th, 7.30 at the Van City Culture Lab,
753
00:46:46.820 --> 00:46:49.510
which is part of the Colch Theatre in East Van.
754
00:46:49.989 --> 00:46:51.809
Okay.
755
00:46:52.050 --> 00:46:53.829
And is the book available now?
756
00:46:55.409 --> 00:46:57.530
The book is coming out September 18th.
757
00:46:57.989 --> 00:46:58.230
Okay.
758
00:46:59.190 --> 00:47:02.610
And, and then, yeah, the launch, it's going to be
759
00:47:02.690 --> 00:47:06.449
a exciting thing. There's a, it's moderated by Fiona Forbes
760
00:47:06.550 --> 00:47:10.559
and is in honor of the book, which goes into
761
00:47:10.579 --> 00:47:14.159
a lot of what I found supportive growing up was
762
00:47:14.219 --> 00:47:18.579
the arts. So the book really anchors into that as well.
763
00:47:18.699 --> 00:47:23.239
And so holding it in a theater with some local
764
00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:30.730
performances from some fantastic BC musicians, this legendary drag icon
765
00:47:30.750 --> 00:47:34.159
who's performing. I think this is just a really wonderful way.
766
00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:37.000
And then the proceeds are going to go to the
767
00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:38.820
Canadian Mental Health Association.
768
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:42.380
That's cool. One of the things you talk about is
769
00:47:42.420 --> 00:47:50.480
also that borderline is often cast as a women's affliction.
770
00:47:51.260 --> 00:47:55.269
And so you've called it a misogynist label. Can you
771
00:47:55.309 --> 00:47:58.679
talk a little bit about that? Yeah.
772
00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:02.559
So just as I was saying earlier about how autism
773
00:48:02.619 --> 00:48:05.739
has been studied in a sort of classical male presentation,
774
00:48:06.860 --> 00:48:15.030
BPD borderline, it really is based on the sort of
775
00:48:15.269 --> 00:48:23.829
outdated ideas that women are overly emotional, hysterical, overly dramatic.
776
00:48:23.949 --> 00:48:28.409
These are female traits that are often weaponized against us.
777
00:48:29.380 --> 00:48:34.280
And so the idea that borderline is prominent in women
778
00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:39.219
and not men is just not in any way scientifically backed.
779
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:45.059
It is unfortunately that just as some women are being
780
00:48:45.139 --> 00:48:50.130
missed for an autism diagnosis, many men get missed for
781
00:48:50.150 --> 00:48:55.949
a borderline diagnosis. instead being diagnosed with sex addiction, anger,
782
00:48:56.489 --> 00:49:01.139
really anything that is considered more acceptable as a man
783
00:49:01.239 --> 00:49:05.760
to have and having issues with your emotions is not
784
00:49:06.699 --> 00:49:10.639
in a very, like I said, misogynistic way considered acceptable
785
00:49:10.679 --> 00:49:14.969
for men. And so a lot of practitioners have actually
786
00:49:15.929 --> 00:49:21.630
been hesitant to accurately diagnose and and instead have gone
787
00:49:21.699 --> 00:49:26.059
for these angers and it's just it's quite tragic for
788
00:49:26.119 --> 00:49:28.739
both women and also for the men who get failed
789
00:49:29.179 --> 00:49:33.480
and uh sort of spend their lives chasing their tail
790
00:49:33.519 --> 00:49:36.159
not getting the full picture of themselves.
791
00:49:37.579 --> 00:49:40.889
One of the other things you talk about is um Basically,
792
00:49:41.769 --> 00:49:44.869
life isn't black and white. We really do live in
793
00:49:44.909 --> 00:49:47.989
the grays in our world. And you talk about the
794
00:49:48.030 --> 00:49:52.530
healing power of forgiving abusive family members. That's a really
795
00:49:52.630 --> 00:49:54.389
hard topic for a lot of people who have been
796
00:49:54.429 --> 00:49:55.780
traumatized as children.
797
00:49:56.559 --> 00:49:58.079
What did you discover.
798
00:49:57.760 --> 00:49:58.480
In doing that?
799
00:50:00.989 --> 00:50:04.469
So forgiveness is a complicated thing. And it is, of course,
800
00:50:04.550 --> 00:50:08.409
each to their own and everyone's experience. I don't claim
801
00:50:08.469 --> 00:50:12.760
to speak for anyone other than myself. In my experience,
802
00:50:12.980 --> 00:50:15.639
you know, it's a constant shift. Some days are better
803
00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:21.059
than others. Sometimes I'm way more frustrated. But certainly within
804
00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:25.199
my own family unit, I do believe that there is love.
805
00:50:25.739 --> 00:50:28.769
I do believe that there is good intention.
806
00:50:29.289 --> 00:50:32.849
And Um, sure.
807
00:50:33.070 --> 00:50:35.710
Maybe there are paths that I would have picked differently
808
00:50:35.829 --> 00:50:39.389
or choices I would have made differently or really desired
809
00:50:39.429 --> 00:50:42.750
a sort of accountability that I felt really was lacking.
810
00:50:43.929 --> 00:50:48.489
And at the same time, I also recognize that there are,
811
00:50:48.929 --> 00:50:54.280
like I previously said, most likely, um, not only capacity issues,
812
00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:59.760
but family mental health issues that I've probably in, um,
813
00:51:00.250 --> 00:51:06.349
especially in older generations, also been missed. And it's just,
814
00:51:07.190 --> 00:51:13.400
for me, my life has not been better in cutting
815
00:51:13.420 --> 00:51:21.949
a lot of people out. I prefer to, yes, have boundaries, yes,
816
00:51:23.010 --> 00:51:27.349
change those at times. But I think it's just so
817
00:51:27.449 --> 00:51:35.119
rare that people are 100 percent um ill-intentioned or or
818
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:38.070
abusive and again this is not me standing up for
819
00:51:38.110 --> 00:51:41.150
any abuse but I just personally in my own circumstance
820
00:51:41.789 --> 00:51:45.210
do not feel that I want to cut my family
821
00:51:45.250 --> 00:51:48.269
entirely out of my life they support they support me
822
00:51:48.349 --> 00:51:50.809
and they support my children in many many ways and
823
00:51:51.349 --> 00:51:54.289
as I've said in the book very financially generous in
824
00:51:54.349 --> 00:51:59.420
ways that I am internally indebted for mm-hmm I'm Pippa Scott,
825
00:51:59.639 --> 00:52:02.380
and this is an excerpt from my book, Paper Girls Burn.
826
00:52:04.300 --> 00:52:07.269
There had been a blood-curdling scream for over an hour
827
00:52:07.369 --> 00:52:10.809
when I was eight years old. I can't take it anymore.
828
00:52:11.510 --> 00:52:14.409
My mother's strained voice had drifted up the stairs whenever
829
00:52:14.449 --> 00:52:17.710
there was a short pause in my fit. I'm at
830
00:52:17.750 --> 00:52:20.289
my wit's end. I don't know what to do with her.
831
00:52:21.380 --> 00:52:24.159
I had always been terrified of being alone. I was
832
00:52:24.219 --> 00:52:26.539
petrified of being the last person in the house to
833
00:52:26.579 --> 00:52:29.840
fall asleep. Convinced that if that happened, I would be
834
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:32.360
the last person awake in the world and harm would
835
00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:36.400
befall me. Unable to put into words the abject terror
836
00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:39.139
I felt, I'd stand at the top of the stairs
837
00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:42.400
and scream each night. I believed it was not safe
838
00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:44.679
for my parents to go to bed and leave me alone.
839
00:52:45.650 --> 00:52:48.469
They could not understand what was wrong with me. At
840
00:52:48.510 --> 00:52:51.420
a loss, they would eventually retire to their beds. my
841
00:52:51.480 --> 00:52:54.599
insomnia keeping everyone awake late into the night until the
842
00:52:54.659 --> 00:52:58.219
screaming fits depleted my body and I crawled into bed defeated.
843
00:52:59.739 --> 00:53:02.860
Unable to find any comfort at home, I turned my
844
00:53:02.929 --> 00:53:05.929
attention to the man who lived across the street. My
845
00:53:05.969 --> 00:53:09.610
bedroom window peered into his. A man in his 40s
846
00:53:09.670 --> 00:53:13.329
with curly black hair, he had an unimposing slim build
847
00:53:13.449 --> 00:53:18.329
and wore glasses. He was an artist. His colorful canvases
848
00:53:18.389 --> 00:53:20.960
were strewn all over his floor. and he worked well
849
00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:24.000
into the night. I drew comfort from his habits as
850
00:53:24.039 --> 00:53:26.500
they prevented me from facing the darkness of the night
851
00:53:26.579 --> 00:53:31.380
in solitude. The nights he was away, I despaired. I
852
00:53:31.420 --> 00:53:33.429
missed him the way a lover misses a man sent
853
00:53:33.469 --> 00:53:36.329
to war. There was nothing romantic in the way I
854
00:53:36.409 --> 00:53:39.670
saw him, but I believed he was inadvertently protecting me
855
00:53:39.750 --> 00:53:43.590
from afar. As long as his light shone brightly, the
856
00:53:43.630 --> 00:53:47.670
monsters could not consume me. These monsters were not hideous
857
00:53:47.750 --> 00:53:52.139
creatures hiding under my bed. Even then, I understood that
858
00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:55.800
feeling alone was a far scarier reality than any witches
859
00:53:55.920 --> 00:54:00.119
could ever be. There were so many screaming fits. If
860
00:54:00.179 --> 00:54:02.889
a single Cheerio hit the floor, I'd stare at it,
861
00:54:02.989 --> 00:54:07.429
lying there cold and alone. I was entirely preoccupied with pears,
862
00:54:07.690 --> 00:54:11.110
the number two. Everything and everyone had to have a buddy.
863
00:54:11.929 --> 00:54:13.760
I took a second Cheerio and threw it on the
864
00:54:13.820 --> 00:54:17.380
floor next to it. There, I thought, now you don't
865
00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:20.809
need to be lonely. After breakfast, my nanny placed a
866
00:54:20.849 --> 00:54:24.110
rainbow of crayons in front of me. She noticed a
867
00:54:24.130 --> 00:54:26.610
broken red one, and before I could say a word,
868
00:54:26.679 --> 00:54:28.559
she picked it up and headed to the trash can.
869
00:54:29.179 --> 00:54:32.039
Panic washed over me. I needed to stop her, but
870
00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:34.800
I could not find my voice. As she returned, I
871
00:54:34.840 --> 00:54:37.860
grabbed the blue crayon and broke it in half. Pippa,
872
00:54:38.420 --> 00:54:41.000
why on earth did you do that? Where is the
873
00:54:41.019 --> 00:54:45.210
broken red crayon? I yelled in desperation. Her response was
874
00:54:45.269 --> 00:54:48.619
a perplexed, muted stare. I frantically ran to the trash
875
00:54:48.659 --> 00:54:51.570
can and emptied its contents onto the floor. Hot tears
876
00:54:51.619 --> 00:54:55.369
streamed down my face as I searched through the trash. Pippa,
877
00:54:55.710 --> 00:54:59.050
she scolded, go to your room this instant. But I
878
00:54:59.110 --> 00:55:01.630
could not go yet. I needed to find the red
879
00:55:01.690 --> 00:55:05.050
crayon and reunite it with its blue friend. I've had
880
00:55:05.110 --> 00:55:07.769
enough of your hysterics. She picked me up and brought
881
00:55:07.789 --> 00:55:09.889
me to my room while I kicked and howled for
882
00:55:09.909 --> 00:55:15.150
the lonely lost crayon. Deposited inside my room, I screamed
883
00:55:15.210 --> 00:55:18.769
for an eternity. Hours later, I heard the front door open,
884
00:55:19.230 --> 00:55:23.730
the familiar sound of keys jangling. Mother was home. Exhausted
885
00:55:23.769 --> 00:55:26.769
from my meltdowns, I quietly emerged from my room and
886
00:55:26.849 --> 00:55:31.489
slunk to the top of the stairs. Clutching the banister,
887
00:55:31.869 --> 00:55:35.150
I could hear my nanny relaying her distress. I think
888
00:55:35.170 --> 00:55:37.809
there might be something wrong with your daughter. She needs help.
889
00:55:39.050 --> 00:55:42.940
We're doing our best, I heard my mother respond. There
890
00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:45.570
is something wrong with her. was a phrase I'd heard
891
00:55:45.650 --> 00:55:50.130
countless times in my household, weaving deep into my impressionable psyche.
892
00:55:50.789 --> 00:55:53.869
What was wrong with me? I had felt so deeply
893
00:55:53.929 --> 00:55:56.449
the sadness and fear that I perceived the crayon felt
894
00:55:56.530 --> 00:56:00.360
lying in the trash, cold, rejected, and alone. I was
895
00:56:00.440 --> 00:56:03.179
trying to help it. I wasn't trying to be bad.
896
00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:06.199
I retreated into my room and hid under my bed
897
00:56:06.239 --> 00:56:10.079
with two teddy bears. Perhaps this new therapist in England
898
00:56:10.119 --> 00:56:13.349
would have the answers others had not. who at long
899
00:56:13.389 --> 00:56:16.469
last could tell me what was wrong with me. The
900
00:56:16.610 --> 00:56:20.579
ominous building drew closer. The scene was stolen from a
901
00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:24.360
classic British horror film, one in which a young girl, me,
902
00:56:24.780 --> 00:56:27.179
was being taken to a mental facility in a haunted
903
00:56:27.219 --> 00:56:31.980
Victorian mansion. I wish someone could yell, cut, no such luck.
904
00:56:32.719 --> 00:56:35.090
The building was large and felt vacant, like there was
905
00:56:35.139 --> 00:56:39.170
too much space for its purpose. A mammoth chandelier hung
906
00:56:39.289 --> 00:56:44.929
precariously above us. I eyed it with suspicion, distrusting its stability,
907
00:56:45.389 --> 00:56:48.079
fearing that at any moment it might come crashing down,
908
00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:51.019
its sharp edges acting as a guillotine.
909
00:56:54.679 --> 00:56:58.480
Thank you. That was beautiful. And so well read, but
910
00:56:58.519 --> 00:57:01.380
of course you're an actor, so that makes sense. So
911
00:57:01.420 --> 00:57:04.150
I'll just be able to splice it in, not to
912
00:57:04.190 --> 00:57:08.849
worry about that. Okay, perfect. Okay, so it's not three segments,
913
00:57:08.949 --> 00:57:12.389
but it is one half of the program. And I
914
00:57:12.429 --> 00:57:14.949
think it's a good interview. So thank you very much, Pippa,
915
00:57:14.969 --> 00:57:15.469
for doing this.
916
00:57:16.130 --> 00:57:17.969
Yeah, thank you for your time. I appreciate it.
917
00:57:18.369 --> 00:57:19.230
You're welcome.
918
00:57:19.250 --> 00:57:19.349
Okay.
919
00:57:19.369 --> 00:57:23.210
Okay, take care. Bye-bye. Bye. So folks, that's been Pippa Scott.
920
00:57:23.250 --> 00:57:27.929
She's a writer, singer, and award-winning photographer. As a singer,
921
00:57:27.989 --> 00:57:32.019
she's performed on BBC TV's Star for a Night. trained
922
00:57:32.079 --> 00:57:36.679
on Broadway, studied opera under a renowned contralto. She spent
923
00:57:36.719 --> 00:57:39.730
over a decade working in the film industry in London,
924
00:57:39.769 --> 00:57:42.869
New York City, and Los Angeles. And she now lives
925
00:57:42.929 --> 00:57:46.210
in Canada with her two children. Her book is called
926
00:57:46.289 --> 00:57:50.510
Paper Girls Burn. It's launching on September 25th at the
927
00:57:50.550 --> 00:57:54.480
Vancity Culture Lab, which if you live in Vancouver, you know,
928
00:57:54.619 --> 00:58:00.480
is endearingly called The Cult. Thank you, Pippa, for joining us.
929
00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:04.099
I'm This has been enlightening. I always like talking to
930
00:58:04.159 --> 00:58:07.300
people who can articulate what their experience is, and you've
931
00:58:07.340 --> 00:58:08.989
done that very well. So thank you.
932
00:58:09.570 --> 00:58:09.969
Thank you.
933
00:58:11.909 --> 00:58:16.329
Co-op Radio, 100.5 FM, Vancouver's community radio station for 50 years.
934
00:58:18.320 --> 00:58:23.480
Donate today or become a member at www.coopradio.org. Something for everyone,
935
00:58:23.500 --> 00:58:25.480
because one size definitely doesn't fit all.
936
00:58:35.349 --> 00:58:40.510
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver Co-op Radio, CFRO 100.5 FM.
937
00:58:41.190 --> 00:58:45.690
Before Pippa Scott, we talked to Stephon Kirby about psychedelic therapy.
938
00:58:46.269 --> 00:58:49.510
Music today was by Sherry Ulrich. And to you, our listeners,
939
00:58:49.610 --> 00:58:51.869
thank you for joining us today. Stay safe out there.
940
00:58:53.710 --> 00:58:56.130
You've just listened to Rethreading Madness, where we dare to
941
00:58:56.190 --> 00:58:59.170
change how we think about mental health. We air live
942
00:58:59.289 --> 00:59:04.309
on Vancouver Co-op Radio, CFRO, 100.5 FM, every Tuesday at
943
00:59:04.309 --> 00:59:08.929
5 p.m. or online at coopradio.org. If you have questions
944
00:59:09.010 --> 00:59:12.099
or feedback, about this program or want to share your
945
00:59:12.159 --> 00:59:14.719
story or have something to say to us we want
946
00:59:14.739 --> 00:59:17.280
to hear from you you can reach us by email
947
00:59:17.619 --> 00:59:22.329
rethreadingmadness at coopradio.org this is Bernadine Fox we'll be back
948
00:59:22.389 --> 00:59:23.929
next week until then.
949
00:59:24.550 --> 00:59:31.670
When I've never been further Knowing what the hell I'm
950
00:59:31.730 --> 00:59:38.909
gonna do When I can't seem to find my way
951
00:59:39.889 --> 00:59:42.750
Under or over or.
952
00:59:44.730 --> 00:59:45.989
Through Just when.
953
00:59:45.869 --> 00:59:51.360
I'm ready to give up the fight There you are
954
00:59:51.400 --> 00:59:56.820
when we turn out the lights And it's alright It's
955
00:59:56.960 --> 00:59:59.090
alright Thank you.