WEBVTT
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[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to Lee Sewing, an Eden Project podcast.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Telling you a bigger story of a greater love.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Hey guys on today's podcast, we are back with Ancient Near Eastern experts, Eric Smith.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yo, stop it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And Scott Booth.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yo, it's something.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Alright, here you go, I'll set you up again.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And Scott Booth.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
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[SPEAKER_03]: There you go.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Also, this episode is brought to you about Topo Chico with the Twizz Align.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Hmm, come on.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my god.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We've been drinking them all day.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Eric, can you go the bathroom?
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[SPEAKER_03]: I think I'm on number four.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Alright, that's awesome.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, today we're actually going to talk about Eden, which is super appropriate because it's in our name, Eden Project.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm just going to toss it out to you guys because this will be a really fascinating conversation given the fact that there's a lot of different thoughts about Eden out there.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Probably the most prevalent one for me is a kid.
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[SPEAKER_03]: growing up in Sunday school was like kind of felt board imagery of like a garden or an arboretum with some you know mostly naked people coverage strategically in certain areas and maybe a serpent or something like that and it almost felt like
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[SPEAKER_03]: It had this kind of tension between an idyllic garden.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Like, oh, that looks nice.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You might want to go there, but also like a fantasy.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Like, that doesn't seem real, you know, like it's in a whole other world.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And I think when we talk about Eden,
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[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, people automatically associate it with a garden.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And yet, in the story, it's not super clear what it is.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And yet, it plays a really prominent role in Genesis II, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: There's this Eden and the east of Eden, or something like that.
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[SPEAKER_03]: The East.
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[SPEAKER_03]: There's a garden.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So why don't y'all set us up with how would an ancient Israelite have heard this?
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[SPEAKER_03]: What were they thinking about the concept of like divine space or a place or the place where God is?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm just gonna toss it out and see what happened.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Ready go.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Can I go?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Can I go?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Can I go?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I love talking about this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is what this is.
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[SPEAKER_03]: This is so guinea right here.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's like this is the coolest thing.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So now second ago you said you're having a panic attack.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Is this still real?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Are you excited now?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well first of all, I don't know.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what feelings do.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what feelings.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what feelings.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what feelings.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I think I think it's appropriate to say excited or getty or something.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so to begin you have to understand like that's it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's just fun.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Stop it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You're good.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So do begin.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like everything like start with earth right where we live.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And a way to understand our nature way to understand it is that our fate, our lot is locked where we live.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We are going to be born.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We live.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We die and that's it, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to when you say fate, what do you mean?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's already set.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we have mentioned before in earlier episodes like Tablet of Destiny's, meaning we have certain things about our lives that are locked that we can't escape.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna die.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's gonna happen.
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[SPEAKER_01]: All of us were born, like, that's a thing, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna live until that, like, this, the life cycle is gonna freeze.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You're gonna get sick, you're gonna live, and then you're gonna die.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Like, that's sealed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Good, yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So then what you think of is like, okay, that's the earth, that's where that is.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We talked before that there's like the heavens and then the heavens.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so now we get to the good stuff.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Every day, the sun rises up.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And when that sun, like this is now ancient world stuff, as soon as that sun comes out, that individual day's particular fate is locked.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, that's the decision, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's just generally speaking.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It runs its course.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is the sun God runs his course and goes down into the underworld where it holds counsel with other deities.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is why a lot of divination has done it night because you're actually sending messages back and forth.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's pretty sweet to the underworld.
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[SPEAKER_01]: to the underworld, and also why the dead tend to know the future in the ancient areas.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But we're going to sidetracked.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Then happens is, so it goes through the gates and the west, and then comes back off the gates and the east, which is like an Egypt.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's an ongoing creation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, every day it's like the fate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're thinking of it as like every day it locks.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is it, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And a human existence takes place between these gates.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's it, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: The gods are up above and then the underworld, some gods in the West.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you got it, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that's where you start.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now we're going to jump over to a guy Gilgamesh.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Gilgamesh kind of document is this story.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's not Samarion.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What is that?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, come on.
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[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so this is a story about an epic ancient king.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to all the details, but at one point, he loses his best friend.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he's mourning.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he's mourning.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he's mourning his friend's death.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he's really sad about it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he starts to realize, I'm going to die.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to die.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So what he ends up doing is they have this like race scene.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And Gilgamesh is like this huge awesome warrior.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What's this percentage deity after?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Two thirds.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Two thirds deity and how much man?
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[SPEAKER_00]: A third.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: No, the math is different.
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[SPEAKER_01]: now because it's uh... that's a mom and dad and so you think it's a fifty fifty yes yes two-thirds dearly one of the idea always the human out so so he runs and and he's like the way it narrates it he runs around and he basically
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[SPEAKER_01]: beats the sun to the gate point.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he runs east east east as fast as he's trying to outrun his fate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So he gets over and he crosses, basically, he crosses that bubble and he gets out and when he gets there, get this, he's in a garden.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I know, wait, wait.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We get better.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What kind of trees are in this garden?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Before we do that, before we do that, he breaches the gates, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: But somebody's guarding the gate and where the tablets broke in so we don't know what happens, but he gets through.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We don't tell him the story, but we don't know what happens.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like we don't know how he gets through.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So he gets through and he enters this garden.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It feels like it's pertinent information.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It would be, yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Archaeologists are lazy.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Tell that to him.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they're breaking down.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, somebody please go find the rest of this thing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So so he gets through and there's trees and on the trees are growing precious stones.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's gold and onics and all this stuff and what he's had to write out a revelation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, oh my gosh, I don't even
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[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, I just broke your brain.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, okay, it's a story that I'm telling thousands of years.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's a couple of times before Revelation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so he's there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And what he's hunting for is the Tree of Life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And what he wants to do is he wants to take the Tree of Life back through the gates.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because if he can do that,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Then he can take a new fate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It was a nuclear.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so what's important though is that they basically he escaped the fate of Earth.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and he's welcome to stay there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And have that, it's this weird, nebulous zone.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not heaven.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's like in between.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because heaven is where the gods go.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not the underworld, because that's where the dead go.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's this kind of like weird middle zone.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's not really the earth, either, where the fates are declared.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Now, it's this, it's this intermediate space.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, in their story, they have the guy who survives the flood there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because in their story, they've decreed this faith that everyone should die.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But this guy doesn't, so they're like, oh crap, they're like, what do we do?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this guy, where does he go?
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[SPEAKER_01]: He escaped, they put him in the garden.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They put him in this middle zone because that's the only place to make sense.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He can't be in the, you're supposed to die zone because he didn't.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, so they put him over here.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The whole point is,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Gilgamesh is trying to assign a different fate to this thing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He ends up falling asleep and he can't.
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[SPEAKER_01]: As Snake comes and takes it, believe it or not.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But the reason I'm saying all this is, when you get to Eden and you see Garden in the East and you're being put there, you already know as a listener.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're not there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So the story is, why can't we be there?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And in Gilgamesh, he learns that as he fails, he goes back to his city and he says, like some really interesting stuff, he says.
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[SPEAKER_01]: that basically my city, by living and dying, for a moment, because creation is ongoing, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Goes on after me, and it was there before me, and it will continue to go, as long as the gods want it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: For that moment, I participate in this epic eternal thing, and that's amazing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's a really cool statement about life, where in the Gilgamesh story what they're saying is, yes, you live and you die, but for that moment,
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[SPEAKER_01]: You're part of this amazing eternal.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's a, it's philosophy that they're doing, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: But they're doing it in the story.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And they're doing it in the story by saying, what are we allotted?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And you watch Gilgamesh, the most powerful that ever was fail to do it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Why does he fail?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because he is human.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he just can't.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's okay.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so that's an awesome story like the epic of Gilgamesh and a cadian text, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So that's that's a cadian with Sumirian antecedents.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That are better.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Gilgamesh.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So how much of that translates over to what's happening in Genesis two?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so for that you don't need to think about you don't have to think oh Genesis two is like riffing off of the Gilgames story instead think
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[SPEAKER_01]: One way to talk about the way things are versus another way they could be is the garden stories, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And this place where it's escaped the fate of Earth, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's what that does.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so as you enter into the garden story, you have certain expectations, just like if you were watching a Western or sci-fi, like you have certain set expectations, and then Genesis two and three just blow them up.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Everything goes weird because God builds man out of earth and puts him in the garden.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's a bizarre state.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's what the spot where the gods are.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's the spot where the fate is different.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't escape this fate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He put us there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, then the question becomes, wait a minute, were made for that?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It just flipped it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Rather than you're going to say, why can't we change this fate?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's saying, no, you were built for that one.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so in some case, I think the most natural question coming out of that is was that even if they're using it analogy, are they trying to describe Eden on the earth prior to the fall?
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[SPEAKER_03]: where man is in a garden in some sort of like, this is the way I intended it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Because it's not like Yahweh creates and says, no, that's not good.
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[SPEAKER_03]: There has to be this intermediate state that I have to like, I'm going to go over here because it's not good.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It is good.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's the way he intended it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's formed.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It functions, yay.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But then because of the fall, because of the relational rebellion, that mankind becomes exiled
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[SPEAKER_03]: in a broken world.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So it's almost like does Eden shift to Eden Catholic on the other side of the membrane.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So to speak or whatever.
12:26.746 --> 12:36.836
[SPEAKER_01]: Like so story Eric, I don't know you can chime in after this, but what's so screwy about the Genesis story, is it tells you the rivers and is here and it's weird.
12:36.916 --> 12:37.957
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like things are
12:38.909 --> 12:41.232
[SPEAKER_01]: It messed up all the rivers are coming from it, right?
12:41.252 --> 12:42.073
[SPEAKER_01]: They're flowing from it.
12:42.113 --> 12:43.194
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like a mountain.
12:43.314 --> 12:43.915
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a high point.
12:43.955 --> 12:44.756
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, right?
12:45.016 --> 12:46.598
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's this garden and you're like, what?
12:46.658 --> 12:47.479
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're built for it.
12:48.260 --> 12:52.624
[SPEAKER_01]: And then interestingly, he puts him there to work into keep it, right?
12:53.265 --> 12:56.229
[SPEAKER_01]: And well, that's where he said from here, you're going to fill the earth.
12:57.194 --> 12:57.935
[SPEAKER_01]: Ah, and subdue it.
12:58.816 --> 12:59.097
[SPEAKER_01]: Sort of.
12:59.337 --> 13:06.547
[SPEAKER_01]: So in our heads, I think we should keep separate Genesis one from two and three as like totally separate stories, right?
13:06.587 --> 13:14.278
[SPEAKER_01]: So then essentially what he's saying is like in two in my mind, I take Genesis two and three as garden story.
13:14.538 --> 13:14.798
[SPEAKER_01]: got it.
13:14.939 --> 13:15.359
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the.
13:15.499 --> 13:19.004
[SPEAKER_03]: So one twenty six or twenty eight is more like, hey, this is creation mandate.
13:19.765 --> 13:21.387
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm this is going to need to do this.
13:21.448 --> 13:29.438
[SPEAKER_01]: Genesis one is like it's saying, okay, and everything is set up and then to say, okay, so like by the end of Genesis one, you're thinking, oh,
13:29.999 --> 13:31.339
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything is the way it's supposed to be.
13:31.440 --> 13:40.703
[SPEAKER_01]: Genesis two jumps in with a garden story to say, which you think is going to be an expression of, yeah, and your fate is locked, and so this is why it's good this way.
13:41.163 --> 13:44.844
[SPEAKER_01]: But it messes it up by saying, no, it broke.
13:45.204 --> 13:46.584
[SPEAKER_01]: The way it is broken.
13:47.185 --> 13:50.426
[SPEAKER_01]: So the rest, God's rest is messed with.
13:50.706 --> 13:56.808
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if the rest, like we talked about last time, is his authority, then Genesis two and three, we denied it.
13:57.746 --> 14:09.569
[SPEAKER_01]: We were belt and but there is a yaway is with his image yeah garden with his image for Yes break and that part is fascinating because he puts man like that part is sort of super important.
14:09.589 --> 14:15.791
[SPEAKER_01]: He puts man in the garden and then tells him it's got to do this job and man needs to find a partner
14:16.753 --> 14:21.095
[SPEAKER_01]: And man is essentially able to do his job when he has his partner, this relationship.
14:21.396 --> 14:25.238
[SPEAKER_01]: And now he can perform his function, which is be fruitful.
14:25.478 --> 14:26.178
[SPEAKER_01]: And guarded.
14:26.258 --> 14:27.299
[SPEAKER_01]: You're the gardener garden.
14:27.359 --> 14:29.080
[SPEAKER_01]: You're supposed to be here with me.
14:29.560 --> 14:30.961
[SPEAKER_01]: They're naked and not ashamed.
14:31.361 --> 14:32.382
[SPEAKER_01]: And here we are.
14:32.922 --> 14:42.227
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the question is, if we're going to leave, like so it's already messed it up because he said, I took you and I put you there in this spot where we can be together.
14:42.607 --> 14:45.489
[SPEAKER_01]: You can perform your function once you have your partner.
14:46.625 --> 14:47.826
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, go.
14:48.206 --> 14:51.629
[SPEAKER_01]: And the whole story starts, but then the whole story breaks.
14:52.049 --> 14:56.572
[SPEAKER_03]: So to summarize what we talked about so far, and then Eric, I'd love to hear what you're what's been in around.
14:59.414 --> 15:01.576
[SPEAKER_03]: So you told us about Gogamesh.
15:02.508 --> 15:05.450
[SPEAKER_03]: outrunning the fates beats the sun to the sunset.
15:06.030 --> 15:15.696
[SPEAKER_03]: There's some kind of intermediate zone on the other side of the sun that he gets to that has that's a garden, precious gems, trees of life, all this kind of stuff, right?
15:16.196 --> 15:28.223
[SPEAKER_03]: So that in some way, I think what at least in Gilgamesh, there is the understanding that there's this kind of like participation in a divine realm or at least a semi-divine one that's like
15:28.683 --> 15:39.373
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, closer to the place of the deities, but then when it comes to Eden in the biblical narrative, we're not quite sure what to do with it because it's a mountain.
15:39.514 --> 15:42.576
[SPEAKER_03]: The location is not it's not on the other side of the sunset.
15:42.677 --> 15:43.357
[SPEAKER_03]: No, it's here.
15:43.377 --> 15:44.358
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's right here.
15:44.758 --> 15:45.940
[SPEAKER_03]: Those rivers flow out of it.
15:46.040 --> 15:49.263
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's high place abundance, which I know
15:49.523 --> 15:50.704
[SPEAKER_03]: We didn't have to fight to get there.
15:50.744 --> 15:51.384
[SPEAKER_03]: Go put us there.
15:51.404 --> 15:52.345
[SPEAKER_03]: Put us there, right?
15:52.865 --> 16:00.611
[SPEAKER_03]: And there seems to be some sort of, so I think the tension that I'm still feeling is what's the continuity and the discontinuity?
16:00.871 --> 16:11.459
[SPEAKER_03]: Like how do we understand what Eden, the function that it plays in the Genesis story, especially when the garden imagery there is
16:13.360 --> 16:19.928
[SPEAKER_03]: There's so much weight there that's a tied to divine space, temples, things like that.
16:20.449 --> 16:28.839
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'll kind of... I'll just leave it with you and you can let us know what you think about all this.
16:34.236 --> 16:35.257
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot to choose for it.
16:35.317 --> 16:36.678
[SPEAKER_00]: There is a lot.
16:36.698 --> 16:40.781
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I could talk about just about any of that set up.
16:42.562 --> 16:44.723
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Scott set it up really well.
16:45.144 --> 16:51.968
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we need to see that people are in the presence of the deity in Genesis II.
16:53.129 --> 16:56.492
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're meant to be in the presence of the deity.
16:57.553 --> 16:59.034
[SPEAKER_00]: And why a garden?
16:59.795 --> 17:03.038
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, where the deity is, there's abundance.
17:04.059 --> 17:09.383
[SPEAKER_00]: The garden imagery consistently, Gilgamesh, other places.
17:09.423 --> 17:13.606
[SPEAKER_00]: It's consistently an image of abundance.
17:13.847 --> 17:19.371
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you want to go up a notch, the trees don't just produce really tasty fruit.
17:19.491 --> 17:23.675
[SPEAKER_00]: The trees produce gems, diamonds, and all this kind of stuff.
17:24.375 --> 17:26.117
[SPEAKER_00]: And why are they doing that?
17:26.437 --> 17:35.026
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, because there's abundance in the deities there and to be in the presence of the deity is to be in
17:36.935 --> 17:38.437
[SPEAKER_00]: the place where there's life.
17:38.857 --> 17:40.319
[SPEAKER_00]: There's abundant life.
17:40.459 --> 17:41.460
[SPEAKER_00]: There's fullness.
17:41.540 --> 17:42.341
[SPEAKER_00]: There's abundance.
17:42.421 --> 17:43.562
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
17:43.582 --> 17:44.824
[SPEAKER_00]: I run out of the right ad.
17:45.224 --> 17:56.537
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think it's generally accepted at least what I understand by scholars that that is the meaning of the word Eden is like abundance or an overflowing like water source or something like that.
17:57.618 --> 17:58.739
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, maybe.
17:58.779 --> 18:00.200
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't really know for sure.
18:00.260 --> 18:00.580
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.
18:02.142 --> 18:04.364
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm apologizing to Rick.
18:07.947 --> 18:08.527
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, Rick.
18:08.847 --> 18:13.672
[SPEAKER_00]: I was trying to say that under my breath.
18:13.692 --> 18:16.874
[SPEAKER_00]: So there are some scholars who point to a Sumerian word aid.
18:17.275 --> 18:19.517
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you can hear aid becomes Eden.
18:20.617 --> 18:25.300
[SPEAKER_00]: eight is a superian word that means like a spring or a fresh water spring.
18:25.400 --> 18:28.943
[SPEAKER_00]: And so some people think that that's where the name derives from.
18:28.963 --> 18:30.744
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that's right or wrong.
18:31.424 --> 18:36.127
[SPEAKER_03]: But it at least seems to fit like something and it is a water source.
18:36.287 --> 18:38.949
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, four rivers to abundance.
18:39.289 --> 18:40.230
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, more than enough.
18:40.470 --> 18:41.891
[SPEAKER_00]: I think abundance is the thing.
18:42.031 --> 18:42.191
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
18:44.473 --> 18:51.542
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it's super trendy right now to talk about how it's temple imagery and it's a little bit weird because
18:52.930 --> 18:54.651
[SPEAKER_00]: in the way the podcast have been released.
18:54.691 --> 18:59.553
[SPEAKER_00]: You've already talked to Kathy, but you haven't talked to Kathy, actually.
19:00.353 --> 19:01.774
[SPEAKER_00]: But we'll see what she says.
19:01.894 --> 19:08.417
[SPEAKER_00]: So she'll, she'll unpack, I think she'll do a fantastic job of unpacking that whole thing.
19:08.957 --> 19:15.660
[SPEAKER_00]: For me personally, it feels totally backwards to say that there's temple imagery in the garden.
19:16.632 --> 19:22.974
[SPEAKER_00]: It to me when I hear that, I feel like somebody said, you know, Jesus appropriated Christian imagery by dying on a cross.
19:23.034 --> 19:23.295
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:23.335 --> 19:23.655
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:23.695 --> 19:25.015
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, it's the other way around.
19:25.775 --> 19:27.456
[SPEAKER_00]: And so garden imagery.
19:27.476 --> 19:31.978
[SPEAKER_03]: Like we get the temple imagery from the created order.
19:32.038 --> 19:34.519
[SPEAKER_03]: If the creation comes first, yeah.
19:34.659 --> 19:37.500
[SPEAKER_03]: And then the temple is analogous to that.
19:37.840 --> 19:46.668
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, but I think even more so it's just an issue of if we're going to describe the presence of God and the life that comes as the result.
19:47.468 --> 19:49.610
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to talk about gardens.
19:49.630 --> 19:53.694
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to talk about stuff growing in abundance and all that kind of stuff.
19:53.774 --> 19:58.377
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I have a tendency to not overplay the temple thing.
19:58.798 --> 20:05.343
[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing, this is tangential a little bit, but you mentioned the fall a couple of times.
20:06.344 --> 20:15.314
[SPEAKER_00]: and okay fine but but Genesis doesn't talk about a fall it doesn't use that terminology that terminology is is
20:16.519 --> 20:17.219
[SPEAKER_00]: very Western.
20:18.219 --> 20:23.901
[SPEAKER_00]: The thing that Genesis is obsessed about is the presence of the deity, in the presence of Yahweh.
20:23.981 --> 20:30.682
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when the people sin and are kicked out of the garden, it's described as an exile.
20:31.062 --> 20:38.044
[SPEAKER_00]: If you track Genesis one through eleven, you're moving further and further and further from the presence of God.
20:38.384 --> 20:39.344
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an exile much more than
20:42.485 --> 20:46.826
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, I'm not trying to argue against the bigger theological issue.
20:47.206 --> 21:01.730
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just trying to say that what Genesis has focused on is the presence of the deity and our choice of taking matters of right and wrong into our own hands instead of relying on Yahweh to determine right and wrong.
21:02.510 --> 21:05.531
[SPEAKER_00]: that has consequences for the presence of the world.
21:05.551 --> 21:17.273
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's interesting, right, after the end of the really, well, not the end, but right in the middle of the prophetic ministry, you have all these guys going, hey, dude, seriously, you're really not doing what Y'all we want you to do.
21:18.594 --> 21:21.174
[SPEAKER_03]: And the presence of the Lord departs from the temple.
21:21.434 --> 21:26.056
[SPEAKER_03]: And then what happens immediately after that, they go into exile, right?
21:26.116 --> 21:31.617
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's playing itself out more broadly in the actual historical narrative.
21:32.580 --> 21:34.761
[SPEAKER_01]: Then, like, the claim is, what are you saying?
21:34.801 --> 21:39.424
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what is it then that made it so that we're not in this other space?
21:40.444 --> 21:44.746
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Eden's story is really different from the Gilgamesh one.
21:45.106 --> 21:50.929
[SPEAKER_01]: You have another garden story, by the way, in Ezekiel, where it's the King of Tire.
21:51.289 --> 21:55.392
[SPEAKER_01]: They describe him as being near the gods and then he's kicked out.
21:56.112 --> 21:57.132
[SPEAKER_01]: And why is he kicked out?
21:57.152 --> 21:57.793
[SPEAKER_01]: Because of pride.
21:58.697 --> 22:01.159
[SPEAKER_01]: And so people try to say what's going on in Eden is pride.
22:01.279 --> 22:02.880
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, it's not.
22:03.580 --> 22:07.943
[SPEAKER_01]: But what does cause expulsion is what you're listening for, right?
22:08.043 --> 22:11.245
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you wanted to know, basically, why don't we have the tree of life?
22:11.945 --> 22:13.186
[SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we have life?
22:14.902 --> 22:19.725
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's what Eric said is because we decided, they go straight at the word of God.
22:20.185 --> 22:23.067
[SPEAKER_01]: The serpent comes in and goes, hey, he really say.
22:23.087 --> 22:26.029
[SPEAKER_01]: He goes right at what he says.
22:26.689 --> 22:32.573
[SPEAKER_01]: And interestingly, he goes right at the relationship between the husband and the wife, right?
22:32.653 --> 22:33.313
[SPEAKER_01]: It's right there.
22:33.373 --> 22:34.193
[SPEAKER_01]: It's those two.
22:35.134 --> 22:35.714
[SPEAKER_01]: And when
22:37.256 --> 22:46.111
[SPEAKER_01]: We get our purpose in Genesis two to work the garden That's part of this this couple so as what it's trying to say is like
22:47.383 --> 22:48.624
[SPEAKER_01]: It snapped everything.
22:48.644 --> 22:58.549
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to go at why we can't be with God, as Eric says, we're rejecting that He has the words of life, essentially.
22:59.310 --> 23:12.677
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what's fascinating is by us choosing knowledge, what He's saying is, you deciding what is right and wrong, it is not good to then be able to live forever.
23:14.070 --> 23:28.862
[SPEAKER_03]: So you expand also if you become the type of creature who's not going to yield to the deity and instead try to become your own and do life on your own terms, then you remaining in the garden and working it is going to mess it up.
23:29.622 --> 23:29.822
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
23:30.063 --> 23:37.308
[SPEAKER_03]: You become the type of gardener that messes stuff up instead of actually cooperates with the land.
23:38.349 --> 23:42.552
[SPEAKER_03]: So what I'm here in a little bit is to correct me from wrong, but it seems like
23:43.513 --> 23:47.214
[SPEAKER_03]: Genesis one sets up the fact that Yahweh set up his farm.
23:48.735 --> 23:57.418
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm forming it, I'm filling it, and then somewhere in this garden, which is this place where the deity is, right?
23:57.498 --> 24:02.500
[SPEAKER_03]: He's making an image of himself and is going, hey, I'm going to co-create with you.
24:02.980 --> 24:08.524
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, the creation is going to continue, but now I'm going to do it with you and through you, right?
24:08.544 --> 24:12.688
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's not like he snapped his fingers and all of a sudden there was eight billion people, right?
24:13.028 --> 24:17.932
[SPEAKER_03]: He continues to create humans, but he's doing it through the agency of the images, right?
24:17.972 --> 24:19.093
[SPEAKER_03]: The be fruitful and multiply.
24:19.433 --> 24:25.318
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the part where it's like, for me, I really draw a really hard line between one and then two and three.
24:25.358 --> 24:30.162
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know where you are in Eric, but for me, that's where it's like Genesis one is saying, here's the initial set of.
24:30.602 --> 24:35.727
[SPEAKER_01]: And then Genesis two and three is a discussion about our fate.
24:35.867 --> 24:36.587
[SPEAKER_01]: I get that.
24:36.687 --> 24:41.992
[SPEAKER_03]: Even if you start with Genesis two, you're in a garden somewhere where rivers are coming out.
24:42.072 --> 24:42.232
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
24:42.332 --> 24:43.313
[SPEAKER_03]: And we know where that is.
24:43.833 --> 24:48.317
[SPEAKER_03]: So there's something about it that feels grounded here, not like way over there.
24:48.497 --> 24:49.937
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's part of how they're screwing with it.
24:51.218 --> 25:08.561
[SPEAKER_03]: But with relational breach against Yahweh and exile, it feels like the Eden space, the world as it is now ends up being humans in exile with the Eden place going away.
25:09.381 --> 25:14.582
[SPEAKER_03]: But then Jesus, now Yahang with me, I realize, just hang with me.
25:16.087 --> 25:20.231
[SPEAKER_03]: But then Jesus comes and begins to talk about the kingdom of God.
25:20.891 --> 25:22.933
[SPEAKER_03]: And the kingdom of God has come.
25:23.373 --> 25:24.154
[SPEAKER_03]: It has arrived.
25:25.095 --> 25:28.938
[SPEAKER_03]: And now you're talking about presence of deity again with his people.
25:29.478 --> 25:31.040
[SPEAKER_03]: Except now it's not in a garden.
25:31.660 --> 25:33.702
[SPEAKER_03]: The Holy Spirit now in dwells people.
25:34.042 --> 25:35.724
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, moves out and like spreads.
25:36.256 --> 25:36.596
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
25:37.277 --> 25:55.959
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's where I'm like, hey, what is it within bounds to say that the broken world, the world in exile is not Eden because it's busted, but that Jesus in some way is bringing Eden so to speak back
25:57.298 --> 26:03.782
[SPEAKER_03]: through the presence and work of the Holy Spirit to recover his place.
26:04.022 --> 26:09.906
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's weird because you end up having to like, so as we're talking about this, we're like mixing things.
26:10.106 --> 26:10.526
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
26:10.566 --> 26:17.150
[SPEAKER_01]: In the sense where we're saying, on the one hand, we've said, this is a way that they talk about X, Y, and Z using this garden imagery.
26:17.610 --> 26:19.612
[SPEAKER_01]: On the other hand, we're also saying, yep, but like,
26:20.612 --> 26:41.229
[SPEAKER_03]: something happened right and then something is happening totally so then like how do you describe the real fact yeah Jesus lived yeah thought died rose from the dead and now we're in dual by the Holy Spirit right and that's not a right it's not an analogy that's real right and so it's so interesting about like to say okay eating is coming back in things it's not like it's just
26:42.010 --> 27:09.387
[SPEAKER_01]: part of why that is right and part of why that's difficult to say it like that is because the garden story in Genesis two and three itself was already bending the in a sense of the genre of garden story where it's saying the garden isn't a place you can't go like because they're not built for that it's a place you're built for what yeah right the garden isn't outside of this fate it's in this fate
27:10.907 --> 27:12.108
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's busted in some way.
27:12.368 --> 27:16.429
[SPEAKER_01]: But then he says, he kicks us out of the garden because that's what the genre has to do.
27:16.810 --> 27:17.970
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to leave at some point.
27:18.270 --> 27:20.351
[SPEAKER_01]: And the consequences are fascinating for that.
27:20.731 --> 27:23.352
[SPEAKER_01]: He curses the ground.
27:25.473 --> 27:27.674
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody needs like man and woman aren't cursed.
27:28.634 --> 27:30.154
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the serpent and the ground.
27:30.535 --> 27:34.096
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the physical place when he's saying is the place that you occupy.
27:35.147 --> 27:35.827
[SPEAKER_01]: is wrong.
27:35.988 --> 27:44.733
[SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that you are going to die is because, well, it's linked to obedience to y'all way, but it's broken.
27:45.233 --> 27:46.034
[SPEAKER_01]: That's broken.
27:46.074 --> 27:50.816
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like the opposite, it's the opposite discussion of Gilgamesh.
27:50.937 --> 27:55.239
[SPEAKER_03]: But even if we don't mix it and we keep it as a way of talking about that.
27:55.259 --> 27:55.679
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
27:56.140 --> 28:00.902
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's still fair to use the terminology to say, yeah, and the way that it was,
28:01.972 --> 28:04.213
[SPEAKER_03]: before it was busted and there was exile.
28:04.373 --> 28:04.613
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
28:05.174 --> 28:06.555
[SPEAKER_03]: Jesus is mending that.
28:06.895 --> 28:07.175
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
28:07.315 --> 28:15.820
[SPEAKER_03]: Through the power of the Holy Spirit is bringing about what will end up becoming Revelation twenty-one in twenty-two.
28:15.960 --> 28:16.160
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
28:16.460 --> 28:17.080
[SPEAKER_03]: Where is it?
28:17.120 --> 28:18.401
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's a garden again.
28:18.621 --> 28:21.583
[SPEAKER_01]: Augustine's like, was that non-possible carity at Mori?
28:22.373 --> 28:24.114
[SPEAKER_03]: Now you're speaking loud and too.
28:24.194 --> 28:29.295
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's like where it is moving us from a position where we're no longer, he's going to secure it.
28:29.355 --> 28:30.436
[SPEAKER_01]: He's going to secure it.
28:30.456 --> 28:34.157
[SPEAKER_01]: He's going to secure Eden, totally or secure away the whole thing.
28:34.957 --> 28:39.359
[SPEAKER_01]: All of this whole project is, let's put it back and let's get together again.
28:39.439 --> 28:44.100
[SPEAKER_01]: We're supposed to be, it is the inverse of the ancient Nearby Stern perspective.
28:44.580 --> 28:45.901
[SPEAKER_01]: We're supposed to be
28:46.821 --> 28:47.401
[SPEAKER_01]: with God.
28:48.102 --> 28:53.045
[SPEAKER_01]: And people should know like, in the ancient world, it's the priest and the king.
28:53.485 --> 28:55.726
[SPEAKER_01]: Those people are spending all their time in the temple.
28:56.266 --> 29:01.009
[SPEAKER_01]: Even with Israel telling people, you come to the temple, you bring sacrifices to me.
29:01.029 --> 29:03.090
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to be heavily involved in the sacrificial system.
29:03.470 --> 29:05.692
[SPEAKER_01]: That in itself is like, oh my goodness.
29:06.748 --> 29:08.209
[SPEAKER_01]: Why can we go near the God?
29:08.229 --> 29:10.129
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm making you priests.
29:10.710 --> 29:11.190
[SPEAKER_01]: All of you.
29:11.470 --> 29:12.530
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, wait, what?
29:12.750 --> 29:12.951
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
29:13.151 --> 29:15.992
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he makes the whole temple thing full with garden imagery.
29:16.012 --> 29:17.292
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, see the project?
29:17.753 --> 29:23.035
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, they would have had to ritually enact that they are going near God, right?
29:23.275 --> 29:24.895
[SPEAKER_01]: And which is what they were expelled from.
29:25.856 --> 29:27.477
[SPEAKER_03]: It's almost like it's an Eden project.
29:27.617 --> 29:27.957
[SPEAKER_03]: Almost.
29:27.977 --> 29:30.498
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't like that.
29:31.796 --> 29:32.257
[SPEAKER_03]: You guys have no idea.
29:32.357 --> 29:33.178
[SPEAKER_03]: You were just long-up in a way.
29:33.198 --> 29:33.899
[SPEAKER_03]: You've been sitting.
29:33.919 --> 29:34.199
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a trough.
29:34.219 --> 29:50.918
[SPEAKER_03]: You're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're
29:51.118 --> 29:59.640
[SPEAKER_03]: is that however you take Eden in Genesis, there is a relational rebellion that happens there in this garden.
30:00.400 --> 30:05.682
[SPEAKER_03]: And we are supposed to be with God, but because of that relational rebellion, we're exiled.
30:06.822 --> 30:08.542
[SPEAKER_03]: But God is going, how am I going to fix that?
30:09.182 --> 30:14.944
[SPEAKER_03]: And quote unquote, kicking you out of Eden, it's not that he's like, you son's a burn, you know.
30:16.244 --> 30:22.288
[SPEAKER_03]: It's really like, hey, you're no longer appropriate gardeners because you're broken, right?
30:22.628 --> 30:29.033
[SPEAKER_03]: So as the world is suppressed, I'm actually going to be about this project of bringing
30:30.242 --> 30:32.925
[SPEAKER_03]: reality the way it's supposed to be back into order.
30:33.345 --> 30:33.946
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
30:34.767 --> 30:41.534
[SPEAKER_03]: And the heart of what drives Yahweh to do that is like Jesus said, right?
30:42.175 --> 30:43.456
[SPEAKER_03]: God so loved the world.
30:43.897 --> 30:44.077
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
30:44.257 --> 30:45.278
[SPEAKER_03]: That he gave his only son.
30:45.819 --> 30:50.063
[SPEAKER_03]: He didn't come to condemn us, but that the world through him would be saved.
30:50.764 --> 30:51.264
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, oh.
30:53.006 --> 31:05.671
[SPEAKER_03]: Wait, so God's going about this entire project with Abram, and all of them through the ages that culminates in Jesus, and then the giving the Holy Spirit to us in order to bring about an Eden restored.
31:06.871 --> 31:08.432
[SPEAKER_03]: Now we're in the presence of the deity again.
31:08.812 --> 31:11.153
[SPEAKER_03]: Where we belong, it's home for us.
31:11.793 --> 31:13.253
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you get to beautiful.
31:13.273 --> 31:16.495
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, some of them is beautiful literature ever written in Revelation.
31:17.335 --> 31:19.816
[SPEAKER_03]: We're just like, don't side that, bro.
31:22.129 --> 31:23.169
[SPEAKER_01]: I really thought you were joking.
31:23.209 --> 31:24.109
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I was in my head.
31:24.149 --> 31:26.390
[SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking about like this, I'm sorry.
31:26.410 --> 31:28.150
[SPEAKER_00]: He said most beautiful lyrics, right?
31:28.210 --> 31:29.231
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, he can't be Greek.
31:29.291 --> 31:29.511
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
31:29.531 --> 31:31.931
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like seriously.
31:31.971 --> 31:36.272
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I was like filtering out like different, like, you're filtering out everything Greek.
31:36.412 --> 31:39.573
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I like that was just like, wow, that, you know, Gilgamesh is pretty remarkable.
31:39.693 --> 31:40.293
[SPEAKER_01]: Where's he going?
31:40.313 --> 31:40.853
[SPEAKER_01]: Where's he going?
31:40.873 --> 31:41.873
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said the revelation.
31:41.913 --> 31:42.533
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, you know, like.
31:42.553 --> 31:46.234
[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't marking.
31:46.474 --> 31:49.215
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, just genuinely like, that was like from the heart.
31:55.535 --> 32:03.082
[SPEAKER_03]: It is some of the most beautiful literature ever written where it just says, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.
32:03.843 --> 32:07.166
[SPEAKER_03]: There were no longer be any mourning or crying or pain.
32:07.886 --> 32:09.208
[SPEAKER_03]: Like the old thing is gone.
32:09.908 --> 32:10.969
[SPEAKER_03]: Something new is here.
32:11.690 --> 32:14.432
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's why we at the heart of all of this is the love of God.
32:15.248 --> 32:21.092
[SPEAKER_03]: that the story, the literature itself, is pointing to the fact that we're supposed to be with y'all, way in the garden.
32:22.293 --> 32:24.334
[SPEAKER_03]: That's our natural habitat.
32:24.414 --> 32:28.957
[SPEAKER_03]: This like you're gonna moltman said, people talk about the supernatural works of Jesus.
32:29.017 --> 32:34.200
[SPEAKER_03]: When in reality, what Jesus is showing through his works, his miracles, is actually the natural thing.
32:35.061 --> 32:36.842
[SPEAKER_03]: We live in a world that's unnatural.
32:37.282 --> 32:38.363
[SPEAKER_03]: That's wounded and broken.
32:39.063 --> 32:42.505
[SPEAKER_03]: And sorry, you're gonna totally bunch that, but you go, I'm saying.
32:43.726 --> 32:46.228
[SPEAKER_03]: We think of supernatural things like, oh, that's like way.
32:46.308 --> 32:48.530
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, no, that's like, that's the real thing.
32:48.890 --> 32:51.813
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's what we live in is the busted up thing.
32:52.473 --> 32:57.157
[SPEAKER_03]: And Yahweh, because he loves is restoring us to that.
32:57.217 --> 32:59.158
[SPEAKER_03]: And we live in the middle of the Eden Project.
32:59.178 --> 33:00.559
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's all sci-fi.
33:00.640 --> 33:01.100
[SPEAKER_01]: It's awesome.
33:01.180 --> 33:02.041
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure.
33:02.061 --> 33:02.781
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
33:03.782 --> 33:04.002
[SPEAKER_03]: Eric?
33:04.423 --> 33:04.643
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
33:05.483 --> 33:06.544
[SPEAKER_00]: Any other thoughts on that?
33:07.085 --> 33:07.585
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree.
33:07.825 --> 33:08.566
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was listening.
33:08.886 --> 33:09.286
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
33:10.167 --> 33:10.808
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you serious?
33:12.076 --> 33:12.917
[SPEAKER_03]: No disagreement.
33:12.937 --> 33:13.497
[SPEAKER_03]: What's up?
33:13.617 --> 33:16.660
[SPEAKER_00]: I admit when you said, you know, as maltments, I kind of.
33:16.981 --> 33:20.564
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you're.
33:21.565 --> 33:22.485
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's my bad.
33:23.026 --> 33:23.807
[SPEAKER_03]: It's all given.
33:23.847 --> 33:24.748
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
33:25.108 --> 33:28.191
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, hey, thanks for listening in and until next time.
33:28.871 --> 33:29.212
[SPEAKER_03]: Peace.
33:30.555 --> 33:33.478
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for listening to the Restory Podcast.
33:33.778 --> 33:42.525
[SPEAKER_04]: If you like what you heard, hit that subscribe button, share it with your friends, leave us a rating, and check out our other resources at theevenproject.com.
33:43.826 --> 33:44.147
[SPEAKER_04]: Peace!
00:02.619 --> 00:06.023
[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to Lee Sewing, an Eden Project podcast.
00:06.443 --> 00:08.866
[SPEAKER_04]: Telling you a bigger story of a greater love.
00:09.567 --> 00:18.737
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey guys on today's podcast, we are back with Ancient Near Eastern experts, Eric Smith.
00:18.837 --> 00:19.758
[SPEAKER_03]: Yo, stop it.
00:20.499 --> 00:21.340
[SPEAKER_03]: And Scott Booth.
00:21.700 --> 00:22.641
[SPEAKER_02]: Yo, it's something.
00:27.658 --> 00:29.079
[SPEAKER_03]: Alright, here you go, I'll set you up again.
00:29.279 --> 00:30.040
[SPEAKER_03]: And Scott Booth.
00:30.120 --> 00:30.320
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
00:30.600 --> 00:31.221
[SPEAKER_03]: There you go.
00:31.641 --> 00:34.643
[SPEAKER_03]: Also, this episode is brought to you about Topo Chico with the Twizz Align.
00:35.584 --> 00:36.324
[SPEAKER_03]: Hmm, come on.
00:38.606 --> 00:40.067
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my god.
00:40.087 --> 00:41.048
[SPEAKER_03]: We've been drinking them all day.
00:41.988 --> 00:42.969
[SPEAKER_03]: Eric, can you go the bathroom?
00:43.089 --> 00:44.110
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I'm on number four.
00:44.610 --> 00:45.451
[SPEAKER_03]: Alright, that's awesome.
00:46.660 --> 00:52.746
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, today we're actually going to talk about Eden, which is super appropriate because it's in our name, Eden Project.
00:53.567 --> 01:02.496
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm just going to toss it out to you guys because this will be a really fascinating conversation given the fact that there's a lot of different thoughts about Eden out there.
01:03.057 --> 01:05.499
[SPEAKER_03]: Probably the most prevalent one for me is a kid.
01:06.140 --> 01:22.099
[SPEAKER_03]: growing up in Sunday school was like kind of felt board imagery of like a garden or an arboretum with some you know mostly naked people coverage strategically in certain areas and maybe a serpent or something like that and it almost felt like
01:23.020 --> 01:26.223
[SPEAKER_03]: It had this kind of tension between an idyllic garden.
01:26.463 --> 01:27.704
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, oh, that looks nice.
01:27.744 --> 01:30.227
[SPEAKER_03]: You might want to go there, but also like a fantasy.
01:30.467 --> 01:33.710
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, that doesn't seem real, you know, like it's in a whole other world.
01:34.511 --> 01:37.613
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think when we talk about Eden,
01:38.891 --> 01:41.392
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, people automatically associate it with a garden.
01:42.692 --> 01:45.933
[SPEAKER_03]: And yet, in the story, it's not super clear what it is.
01:46.754 --> 01:51.035
[SPEAKER_03]: And yet, it plays a really prominent role in Genesis II, right?
01:51.675 --> 01:56.157
[SPEAKER_03]: There's this Eden and the east of Eden, or something like that.
01:57.117 --> 01:57.578
[SPEAKER_03]: The East.
01:57.718 --> 01:58.498
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a garden.
01:58.598 --> 01:59.179
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
01:59.299 --> 01:59.559
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
02:00.000 --> 02:06.025
[SPEAKER_03]: So why don't y'all set us up with how would an ancient Israelite have heard this?
02:06.825 --> 02:13.771
[SPEAKER_03]: What were they thinking about the concept of like divine space or a place or the place where God is?
02:13.791 --> 02:14.331
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
02:14.492 --> 02:17.094
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm just gonna toss it out and see what happened.
02:17.154 --> 02:17.414
[SPEAKER_03]: Ready go.
02:17.554 --> 02:18.215
[SPEAKER_03]: Can I go?
02:18.235 --> 02:18.535
[SPEAKER_03]: Can I go?
02:18.555 --> 02:19.336
[SPEAKER_03]: Can I go?
02:20.764 --> 02:21.605
[SPEAKER_01]: I love talking about this.
02:21.625 --> 02:22.745
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what this is.
02:22.785 --> 02:24.106
[SPEAKER_03]: This is so guinea right here.
02:24.126 --> 02:25.467
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like this is the coolest thing.
02:25.587 --> 02:25.828
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
02:26.108 --> 02:28.329
[SPEAKER_03]: So now second ago you said you're having a panic attack.
02:28.369 --> 02:28.990
[SPEAKER_03]: Is this still real?
02:29.090 --> 02:30.150
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you excited now?
02:30.831 --> 02:33.333
[SPEAKER_01]: Well first of all, I don't know.
02:33.713 --> 02:34.674
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
02:36.255 --> 02:37.075
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
02:37.215 --> 02:38.896
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what feelings do.
02:38.957 --> 02:42.059
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what feelings.
02:42.259 --> 02:43.279
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what feelings.
02:43.300 --> 02:46.502
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what feelings.
02:48.232 --> 02:51.894
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I think I think it's appropriate to say excited or getty or something.
02:51.914 --> 02:52.595
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited.
02:52.615 --> 02:52.975
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited.
02:53.015 --> 02:56.978
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so to begin you have to understand like that's it.
02:57.218 --> 02:57.798
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just fun.
02:58.579 --> 02:58.999
[SPEAKER_01]: Stop it.
02:59.685 --> 02:59.765
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
02:59.785 --> 03:00.466
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
03:00.486 --> 03:00.786
[SPEAKER_01]: You're good.
03:00.806 --> 03:01.147
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
03:01.507 --> 03:02.328
[SPEAKER_01]: So do begin.
03:02.348 --> 03:06.312
[SPEAKER_01]: Like everything like start with earth right where we live.
03:07.153 --> 03:15.042
[SPEAKER_01]: And a way to understand our nature way to understand it is that our fate, our lot is locked where we live.
03:15.122 --> 03:16.483
[SPEAKER_01]: We are going to be born.
03:16.724 --> 03:17.424
[SPEAKER_01]: We live.
03:17.665 --> 03:19.006
[SPEAKER_01]: We die and that's it, right?
03:19.307 --> 03:21.509
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to when you say fate, what do you mean?
03:21.669 --> 03:22.912
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's already set.
03:22.972 --> 03:30.807
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we have mentioned before in earlier episodes like Tablet of Destiny's, meaning we have certain things about our lives that are locked that we can't escape.
03:31.128 --> 03:31.609
[SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna die.
03:32.392 --> 03:33.932
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's gonna happen.
03:34.052 --> 03:36.953
[SPEAKER_01]: All of us were born, like, that's a thing, right?
03:37.213 --> 03:42.234
[SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna live until that, like, this, the life cycle is gonna freeze.
03:42.254 --> 03:45.235
[SPEAKER_03]: You're gonna get sick, you're gonna live, and then you're gonna die.
03:45.275 --> 03:46.795
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, that's sealed.
03:47.195 --> 03:47.775
[SPEAKER_01]: Good, yeah.
03:47.975 --> 03:51.396
[SPEAKER_01]: So then what you think of is like, okay, that's the earth, that's where that is.
03:51.436 --> 03:54.177
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked before that there's like the heavens and then the heavens.
03:54.897 --> 03:56.857
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so now we get to the good stuff.
03:57.377 --> 04:00.418
[SPEAKER_01]: Every day, the sun rises up.
04:01.859 --> 04:10.243
[SPEAKER_01]: And when that sun, like this is now ancient world stuff, as soon as that sun comes out, that individual day's particular fate is locked.
04:10.844 --> 04:12.485
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, that's the decision, right?
04:12.765 --> 04:14.185
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's just generally speaking.
04:14.205 --> 04:14.325
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
04:14.566 --> 04:15.506
[SPEAKER_01]: It runs its course.
04:15.666 --> 04:22.389
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the sun God runs his course and goes down into the underworld where it holds counsel with other deities.
04:22.450 --> 04:26.071
[SPEAKER_01]: This is why a lot of divination has done it night because you're actually sending messages back and forth.
04:26.111 --> 04:27.332
[SPEAKER_03]: It's pretty sweet to the underworld.
04:27.452 --> 04:30.394
[SPEAKER_01]: to the underworld, and also why the dead tend to know the future in the ancient areas.
04:30.474 --> 04:31.816
[SPEAKER_01]: But we're going to sidetracked.
04:32.096 --> 04:40.262
[SPEAKER_01]: Then happens is, so it goes through the gates and the west, and then comes back off the gates and the east, which is like an Egypt.
04:40.443 --> 04:41.704
[SPEAKER_03]: It's an ongoing creation.
04:43.385 --> 04:44.785
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, every day it's like the fate.
04:44.845 --> 04:46.786
[SPEAKER_01]: We're thinking of it as like every day it locks.
04:47.186 --> 04:47.906
[SPEAKER_01]: This is it, right?
04:48.346 --> 04:51.367
[SPEAKER_01]: And a human existence takes place between these gates.
04:51.727 --> 04:52.487
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it, right?
04:52.787 --> 04:56.868
[SPEAKER_01]: The gods are up above and then the underworld, some gods in the West.
04:56.908 --> 04:57.568
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you got it, right?
04:57.668 --> 04:58.908
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that's where you start.
04:59.308 --> 05:02.389
[SPEAKER_01]: Now we're going to jump over to a guy Gilgamesh.
05:03.169 --> 05:05.809
[SPEAKER_03]: Gilgamesh kind of document is this story.
05:06.089 --> 05:07.310
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's not Samarion.
05:07.690 --> 05:08.130
[SPEAKER_01]: What is that?
05:08.630 --> 05:09.510
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, come on.
05:11.607 --> 05:15.449
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so this is a story about an epic ancient king.
05:16.570 --> 05:21.893
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to all the details, but at one point, he loses his best friend.
05:22.693 --> 05:24.454
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's mourning.
05:25.755 --> 05:26.635
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's mourning.
05:27.236 --> 05:30.458
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's mourning his friend's death.
05:31.158 --> 05:32.139
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's really sad about it.
05:32.159 --> 05:34.160
[SPEAKER_01]: And he starts to realize, I'm going to die.
05:34.860 --> 05:35.421
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to die.
05:35.721 --> 05:35.922
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
05:36.262 --> 05:39.707
[SPEAKER_01]: So what he ends up doing is they have this like race scene.
05:40.147 --> 05:42.330
[SPEAKER_01]: And Gilgamesh is like this huge awesome warrior.
05:42.470 --> 05:44.053
[SPEAKER_01]: What's this percentage deity after?
05:44.113 --> 05:44.814
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
05:44.954 --> 05:45.414
[SPEAKER_00]: Two thirds.
05:45.675 --> 05:45.915
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
05:46.155 --> 05:47.297
[SPEAKER_01]: Two thirds deity and how much man?
05:47.978 --> 05:48.318
[SPEAKER_00]: A third.
05:48.519 --> 05:48.679
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
05:48.859 --> 05:50.061
[SPEAKER_01]: No, the math is different.
05:50.970 --> 06:06.327
[SPEAKER_01]: now because it's uh... that's a mom and dad and so you think it's a fifty fifty yes yes two-thirds dearly one of the idea always the human out so so he runs and and he's like the way it narrates it he runs around and he basically
06:07.108 --> 06:10.010
[SPEAKER_01]: beats the sun to the gate point.
06:10.991 --> 06:14.052
[SPEAKER_01]: And he runs east east east as fast as he's trying to outrun his fate.
06:14.333 --> 06:14.673
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
06:15.093 --> 06:23.919
[SPEAKER_01]: So he gets over and he crosses, basically, he crosses that bubble and he gets out and when he gets there, get this, he's in a garden.
06:25.580 --> 06:25.780
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
06:26.661 --> 06:27.342
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I know, wait, wait.
06:27.502 --> 06:28.102
[SPEAKER_00]: We get better.
06:28.142 --> 06:31.105
[SPEAKER_00]: What kind of trees are in this garden?
06:31.125 --> 06:34.208
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we do that, before we do that, he breaches the gates, right?
06:34.328 --> 06:39.733
[SPEAKER_01]: But somebody's guarding the gate and where the tablets broke in so we don't know what happens, but he gets through.
06:40.193 --> 06:42.095
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't tell him the story, but we don't know what happens.
06:42.515 --> 06:43.516
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we don't know how he gets through.
06:43.536 --> 06:45.618
[SPEAKER_01]: So he gets through and he enters this garden.
06:45.638 --> 06:46.879
[SPEAKER_01]: It feels like it's pertinent information.
06:47.240 --> 06:48.261
[SPEAKER_01]: It would be, yeah.
06:48.681 --> 06:49.822
[SPEAKER_01]: Archaeologists are lazy.
06:50.002 --> 06:50.803
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell that to him.
06:51.749 --> 06:54.132
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they're breaking down.
06:54.152 --> 06:56.415
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, somebody please go find the rest of this thing.
06:56.636 --> 07:01.181
[SPEAKER_01]: So so he gets through and there's trees and on the trees are growing precious stones.
07:02.203 --> 07:06.228
[SPEAKER_01]: It's gold and onics and all this stuff and what he's had to write out a revelation.
07:06.388 --> 07:06.588
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
07:07.089 --> 07:09.192
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, oh my gosh, I don't even
07:10.253 --> 07:11.774
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, I just broke your brain.
07:11.794 --> 07:15.257
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, okay, it's a story that I'm telling thousands of years.
07:16.558 --> 07:19.440
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a couple of times before Revelation.
07:19.581 --> 07:21.182
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so he's there.
07:21.842 --> 07:25.806
[SPEAKER_01]: And what he's hunting for is the Tree of Life.
07:26.306 --> 07:32.211
[SPEAKER_01]: And what he wants to do is he wants to take the Tree of Life back through the gates.
07:32.711 --> 07:33.051
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
07:33.251 --> 07:34.472
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if he can do that,
07:35.293 --> 07:37.455
[SPEAKER_01]: Then he can take a new fate.
07:37.835 --> 07:38.936
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a nuclear.
07:39.417 --> 07:45.182
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so what's important though is that they basically he escaped the fate of Earth.
07:46.853 --> 07:48.174
[SPEAKER_01]: and he's welcome to stay there.
07:49.075 --> 07:51.597
[SPEAKER_01]: And have that, it's this weird, nebulous zone.
07:51.677 --> 07:52.517
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not heaven.
07:52.758 --> 07:53.518
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like in between.
07:53.538 --> 07:55.139
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because heaven is where the gods go.
07:55.159 --> 07:57.741
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not the underworld, because that's where the dead go.
07:57.781 --> 07:59.703
[SPEAKER_01]: It's this kind of like weird middle zone.
07:59.723 --> 08:02.065
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not really the earth, either, where the fates are declared.
08:02.125 --> 08:05.708
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, it's this, it's this intermediate space.
08:05.788 --> 08:05.948
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
08:06.108 --> 08:09.931
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, in their story, they have the guy who survives the flood there.
08:10.011 --> 08:13.494
[SPEAKER_01]: Because in their story, they've decreed this faith that everyone should die.
08:14.337 --> 08:17.542
[SPEAKER_01]: But this guy doesn't, so they're like, oh crap, they're like, what do we do?
08:18.143 --> 08:19.365
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this guy, where does he go?
08:19.465 --> 08:21.087
[SPEAKER_01]: He escaped, they put him in the garden.
08:21.107 --> 08:23.591
[SPEAKER_01]: They put him in this middle zone because that's the only place to make sense.
08:23.631 --> 08:26.115
[SPEAKER_01]: He can't be in the, you're supposed to die zone because he didn't.
08:26.636 --> 08:28.078
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, so they put him over here.
08:28.218 --> 08:29.240
[SPEAKER_01]: The whole point is,
08:30.361 --> 08:34.606
[SPEAKER_01]: Gilgamesh is trying to assign a different fate to this thing.
08:34.666 --> 08:36.267
[SPEAKER_01]: He ends up falling asleep and he can't.
08:36.988 --> 08:39.030
[SPEAKER_01]: As Snake comes and takes it, believe it or not.
08:39.471 --> 08:48.881
[SPEAKER_01]: But the reason I'm saying all this is, when you get to Eden and you see Garden in the East and you're being put there, you already know as a listener.
08:48.941 --> 08:49.621
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not there.
08:50.522 --> 08:52.645
[SPEAKER_01]: So the story is, why can't we be there?
08:53.594 --> 08:53.895
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
08:54.115 --> 09:02.390
[SPEAKER_01]: And in Gilgamesh, he learns that as he fails, he goes back to his city and he says, like some really interesting stuff, he says.
09:03.210 --> 09:11.434
[SPEAKER_01]: that basically my city, by living and dying, for a moment, because creation is ongoing, right?
09:11.815 --> 09:16.077
[SPEAKER_01]: Goes on after me, and it was there before me, and it will continue to go, as long as the gods want it.
09:16.557 --> 09:21.980
[SPEAKER_01]: For that moment, I participate in this epic eternal thing, and that's amazing.
09:23.141 --> 09:30.245
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a really cool statement about life, where in the Gilgamesh story what they're saying is, yes, you live and you die, but for that moment,
09:30.972 --> 09:33.653
[SPEAKER_01]: You're part of this amazing eternal.
09:33.673 --> 09:36.574
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's a, it's philosophy that they're doing, right?
09:36.614 --> 09:37.914
[SPEAKER_01]: But they're doing it in the story.
09:38.295 --> 09:41.636
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're doing it in the story by saying, what are we allotted?
09:42.256 --> 09:46.678
[SPEAKER_01]: And you watch Gilgamesh, the most powerful that ever was fail to do it.
09:46.778 --> 09:47.538
[SPEAKER_01]: Why does he fail?
09:48.018 --> 09:49.098
[SPEAKER_01]: Because he is human.
09:49.879 --> 09:51.179
[SPEAKER_01]: And he just can't.
09:51.779 --> 09:52.240
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's okay.
09:54.097 --> 10:01.644
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so that's an awesome story like the epic of Gilgamesh and a cadian text, right?
10:01.744 --> 10:02.025
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
10:02.065 --> 10:06.729
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's that's a cadian with Sumirian antecedents.
10:06.769 --> 10:07.870
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
10:08.030 --> 10:08.591
[SPEAKER_00]: That are better.
10:09.111 --> 10:09.692
[SPEAKER_00]: Gilgamesh.
10:11.477 --> 10:16.644
[SPEAKER_03]: So how much of that translates over to what's happening in Genesis two?
10:16.944 --> 10:25.816
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so for that you don't need to think about you don't have to think oh Genesis two is like riffing off of the Gilgames story instead think
10:27.157 --> 10:35.802
[SPEAKER_01]: One way to talk about the way things are versus another way they could be is the garden stories, right?
10:36.002 --> 10:40.504
[SPEAKER_01]: And this place where it's escaped the fate of Earth, right?
10:40.704 --> 10:42.425
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's what that does.
10:43.025 --> 10:55.692
[SPEAKER_01]: And so as you enter into the garden story, you have certain expectations, just like if you were watching a Western or sci-fi, like you have certain set expectations, and then Genesis two and three just blow them up.
10:56.632 --> 11:02.856
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything goes weird because God builds man out of earth and puts him in the garden.
11:04.598 --> 11:04.818
[SPEAKER_01]: What?
11:05.458 --> 11:07.880
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's a bizarre state.
11:08.100 --> 11:10.602
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what the spot where the gods are.
11:10.702 --> 11:13.203
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the spot where the fate is different.
11:14.244 --> 11:16.206
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't escape this fate.
11:16.446 --> 11:17.266
[SPEAKER_01]: He put us there.
11:18.007 --> 11:18.507
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
11:18.547 --> 11:23.350
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, then the question becomes, wait a minute, were made for that?
11:25.862 --> 11:26.622
[SPEAKER_01]: It just flipped it.
11:26.922 --> 11:29.363
[SPEAKER_01]: Rather than you're going to say, why can't we change this fate?
11:29.503 --> 11:32.044
[SPEAKER_01]: It's saying, no, you were built for that one.
11:32.264 --> 11:47.310
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so in some case, I think the most natural question coming out of that is was that even if they're using it analogy, are they trying to describe Eden on the earth prior to the fall?
11:48.330 --> 11:54.551
[SPEAKER_03]: where man is in a garden in some sort of like, this is the way I intended it.
11:55.192 --> 11:58.112
[SPEAKER_03]: Because it's not like Yahweh creates and says, no, that's not good.
11:58.132 --> 12:02.613
[SPEAKER_03]: There has to be this intermediate state that I have to like, I'm going to go over here because it's not good.
12:02.733 --> 12:03.313
[SPEAKER_03]: It is good.
12:03.833 --> 12:04.914
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the way he intended it.
12:05.014 --> 12:05.634
[SPEAKER_03]: It's formed.
12:05.774 --> 12:07.094
[SPEAKER_03]: It functions, yay.
12:08.074 --> 12:15.736
[SPEAKER_03]: But then because of the fall, because of the relational rebellion, that mankind becomes exiled
12:17.457 --> 12:18.738
[SPEAKER_03]: in a broken world.
12:19.439 --> 12:25.605
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's almost like does Eden shift to Eden Catholic on the other side of the membrane.
12:25.645 --> 12:26.686
[SPEAKER_03]: So to speak or whatever.
12:26.746 --> 12:36.836
[SPEAKER_01]: Like so story Eric, I don't know you can chime in after this, but what's so screwy about the Genesis story, is it tells you the rivers and is here and it's weird.
12:36.916 --> 12:37.957
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like things are
12:38.909 --> 12:41.232
[SPEAKER_01]: It messed up all the rivers are coming from it, right?
12:41.252 --> 12:42.073
[SPEAKER_01]: They're flowing from it.
12:42.113 --> 12:43.194
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like a mountain.
12:43.314 --> 12:43.915
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a high point.
12:43.955 --> 12:44.756
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, right?
12:45.016 --> 12:46.598
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's this garden and you're like, what?
12:46.658 --> 12:47.479
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're built for it.
12:48.260 --> 12:52.624
[SPEAKER_01]: And then interestingly, he puts him there to work into keep it, right?
12:53.265 --> 12:56.229
[SPEAKER_01]: And well, that's where he said from here, you're going to fill the earth.
12:57.194 --> 12:57.935
[SPEAKER_01]: Ah, and subdue it.
12:58.816 --> 12:59.097
[SPEAKER_01]: Sort of.
12:59.337 --> 13:06.547
[SPEAKER_01]: So in our heads, I think we should keep separate Genesis one from two and three as like totally separate stories, right?
13:06.587 --> 13:14.278
[SPEAKER_01]: So then essentially what he's saying is like in two in my mind, I take Genesis two and three as garden story.
13:14.538 --> 13:14.798
[SPEAKER_01]: got it.
13:14.939 --> 13:15.359
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the.
13:15.499 --> 13:19.004
[SPEAKER_03]: So one twenty six or twenty eight is more like, hey, this is creation mandate.
13:19.765 --> 13:21.387
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm this is going to need to do this.
13:21.448 --> 13:29.438
[SPEAKER_01]: Genesis one is like it's saying, okay, and everything is set up and then to say, okay, so like by the end of Genesis one, you're thinking, oh,
13:29.999 --> 13:31.339
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything is the way it's supposed to be.
13:31.440 --> 13:40.703
[SPEAKER_01]: Genesis two jumps in with a garden story to say, which you think is going to be an expression of, yeah, and your fate is locked, and so this is why it's good this way.
13:41.163 --> 13:44.844
[SPEAKER_01]: But it messes it up by saying, no, it broke.
13:45.204 --> 13:46.584
[SPEAKER_01]: The way it is broken.
13:47.185 --> 13:50.426
[SPEAKER_01]: So the rest, God's rest is messed with.
13:50.706 --> 13:56.808
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if the rest, like we talked about last time, is his authority, then Genesis two and three, we denied it.
13:57.746 --> 14:09.569
[SPEAKER_01]: We were belt and but there is a yaway is with his image yeah garden with his image for Yes break and that part is fascinating because he puts man like that part is sort of super important.
14:09.589 --> 14:15.791
[SPEAKER_01]: He puts man in the garden and then tells him it's got to do this job and man needs to find a partner
14:16.753 --> 14:21.095
[SPEAKER_01]: And man is essentially able to do his job when he has his partner, this relationship.
14:21.396 --> 14:25.238
[SPEAKER_01]: And now he can perform his function, which is be fruitful.
14:25.478 --> 14:26.178
[SPEAKER_01]: And guarded.
14:26.258 --> 14:27.299
[SPEAKER_01]: You're the gardener garden.
14:27.359 --> 14:29.080
[SPEAKER_01]: You're supposed to be here with me.
14:29.560 --> 14:30.961
[SPEAKER_01]: They're naked and not ashamed.
14:31.361 --> 14:32.382
[SPEAKER_01]: And here we are.
14:32.922 --> 14:42.227
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the question is, if we're going to leave, like so it's already messed it up because he said, I took you and I put you there in this spot where we can be together.
14:42.607 --> 14:45.489
[SPEAKER_01]: You can perform your function once you have your partner.
14:46.625 --> 14:47.826
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, go.
14:48.206 --> 14:51.629
[SPEAKER_01]: And the whole story starts, but then the whole story breaks.
14:52.049 --> 14:56.572
[SPEAKER_03]: So to summarize what we talked about so far, and then Eric, I'd love to hear what you're what's been in around.
14:59.414 --> 15:01.576
[SPEAKER_03]: So you told us about Gogamesh.
15:02.508 --> 15:05.450
[SPEAKER_03]: outrunning the fates beats the sun to the sunset.
15:06.030 --> 15:15.696
[SPEAKER_03]: There's some kind of intermediate zone on the other side of the sun that he gets to that has that's a garden, precious gems, trees of life, all this kind of stuff, right?
15:16.196 --> 15:28.223
[SPEAKER_03]: So that in some way, I think what at least in Gilgamesh, there is the understanding that there's this kind of like participation in a divine realm or at least a semi-divine one that's like
15:28.683 --> 15:39.373
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, closer to the place of the deities, but then when it comes to Eden in the biblical narrative, we're not quite sure what to do with it because it's a mountain.
15:39.514 --> 15:42.576
[SPEAKER_03]: The location is not it's not on the other side of the sunset.
15:42.677 --> 15:43.357
[SPEAKER_03]: No, it's here.
15:43.377 --> 15:44.358
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's right here.
15:44.758 --> 15:45.940
[SPEAKER_03]: Those rivers flow out of it.
15:46.040 --> 15:49.263
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's high place abundance, which I know
15:49.523 --> 15:50.704
[SPEAKER_03]: We didn't have to fight to get there.
15:50.744 --> 15:51.384
[SPEAKER_03]: Go put us there.
15:51.404 --> 15:52.345
[SPEAKER_03]: Put us there, right?
15:52.865 --> 16:00.611
[SPEAKER_03]: And there seems to be some sort of, so I think the tension that I'm still feeling is what's the continuity and the discontinuity?
16:00.871 --> 16:11.459
[SPEAKER_03]: Like how do we understand what Eden, the function that it plays in the Genesis story, especially when the garden imagery there is
16:13.360 --> 16:19.928
[SPEAKER_03]: There's so much weight there that's a tied to divine space, temples, things like that.
16:20.449 --> 16:28.839
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'll kind of... I'll just leave it with you and you can let us know what you think about all this.
16:34.236 --> 16:35.257
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot to choose for it.
16:35.317 --> 16:36.678
[SPEAKER_00]: There is a lot.
16:36.698 --> 16:40.781
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I could talk about just about any of that set up.
16:42.562 --> 16:44.723
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Scott set it up really well.
16:45.144 --> 16:51.968
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we need to see that people are in the presence of the deity in Genesis II.
16:53.129 --> 16:56.492
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're meant to be in the presence of the deity.
16:57.553 --> 16:59.034
[SPEAKER_00]: And why a garden?
16:59.795 --> 17:03.038
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, where the deity is, there's abundance.
17:04.059 --> 17:09.383
[SPEAKER_00]: The garden imagery consistently, Gilgamesh, other places.
17:09.423 --> 17:13.606
[SPEAKER_00]: It's consistently an image of abundance.
17:13.847 --> 17:19.371
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you want to go up a notch, the trees don't just produce really tasty fruit.
17:19.491 --> 17:23.675
[SPEAKER_00]: The trees produce gems, diamonds, and all this kind of stuff.
17:24.375 --> 17:26.117
[SPEAKER_00]: And why are they doing that?
17:26.437 --> 17:35.026
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, because there's abundance in the deities there and to be in the presence of the deity is to be in
17:36.935 --> 17:38.437
[SPEAKER_00]: the place where there's life.
17:38.857 --> 17:40.319
[SPEAKER_00]: There's abundant life.
17:40.459 --> 17:41.460
[SPEAKER_00]: There's fullness.
17:41.540 --> 17:42.341
[SPEAKER_00]: There's abundance.
17:42.421 --> 17:43.562
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
17:43.582 --> 17:44.824
[SPEAKER_00]: I run out of the right ad.
17:45.224 --> 17:56.537
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think it's generally accepted at least what I understand by scholars that that is the meaning of the word Eden is like abundance or an overflowing like water source or something like that.
17:57.618 --> 17:58.739
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, maybe.
17:58.779 --> 18:00.200
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't really know for sure.
18:00.260 --> 18:00.580
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.
18:02.142 --> 18:04.364
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm apologizing to Rick.
18:07.947 --> 18:08.527
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, Rick.
18:08.847 --> 18:13.672
[SPEAKER_00]: I was trying to say that under my breath.
18:13.692 --> 18:16.874
[SPEAKER_00]: So there are some scholars who point to a Sumerian word aid.
18:17.275 --> 18:19.517
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you can hear aid becomes Eden.
18:20.617 --> 18:25.300
[SPEAKER_00]: eight is a superian word that means like a spring or a fresh water spring.
18:25.400 --> 18:28.943
[SPEAKER_00]: And so some people think that that's where the name derives from.
18:28.963 --> 18:30.744
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that's right or wrong.
18:31.424 --> 18:36.127
[SPEAKER_03]: But it at least seems to fit like something and it is a water source.
18:36.287 --> 18:38.949
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, four rivers to abundance.
18:39.289 --> 18:40.230
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, more than enough.
18:40.470 --> 18:41.891
[SPEAKER_00]: I think abundance is the thing.
18:42.031 --> 18:42.191
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
18:44.473 --> 18:51.542
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it's super trendy right now to talk about how it's temple imagery and it's a little bit weird because
18:52.930 --> 18:54.651
[SPEAKER_00]: in the way the podcast have been released.
18:54.691 --> 18:59.553
[SPEAKER_00]: You've already talked to Kathy, but you haven't talked to Kathy, actually.
19:00.353 --> 19:01.774
[SPEAKER_00]: But we'll see what she says.
19:01.894 --> 19:08.417
[SPEAKER_00]: So she'll, she'll unpack, I think she'll do a fantastic job of unpacking that whole thing.
19:08.957 --> 19:15.660
[SPEAKER_00]: For me personally, it feels totally backwards to say that there's temple imagery in the garden.
19:16.632 --> 19:22.974
[SPEAKER_00]: It to me when I hear that, I feel like somebody said, you know, Jesus appropriated Christian imagery by dying on a cross.
19:23.034 --> 19:23.295
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:23.335 --> 19:23.655
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:23.695 --> 19:25.015
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, it's the other way around.
19:25.775 --> 19:27.456
[SPEAKER_00]: And so garden imagery.
19:27.476 --> 19:31.978
[SPEAKER_03]: Like we get the temple imagery from the created order.
19:32.038 --> 19:34.519
[SPEAKER_03]: If the creation comes first, yeah.
19:34.659 --> 19:37.500
[SPEAKER_03]: And then the temple is analogous to that.
19:37.840 --> 19:46.668
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, but I think even more so it's just an issue of if we're going to describe the presence of God and the life that comes as the result.
19:47.468 --> 19:49.610
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to talk about gardens.
19:49.630 --> 19:53.694
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to talk about stuff growing in abundance and all that kind of stuff.
19:53.774 --> 19:58.377
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I have a tendency to not overplay the temple thing.
19:58.798 --> 20:05.343
[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing, this is tangential a little bit, but you mentioned the fall a couple of times.
20:06.344 --> 20:15.314
[SPEAKER_00]: and okay fine but but Genesis doesn't talk about a fall it doesn't use that terminology that terminology is is
20:16.519 --> 20:17.219
[SPEAKER_00]: very Western.
20:18.219 --> 20:23.901
[SPEAKER_00]: The thing that Genesis is obsessed about is the presence of the deity, in the presence of Yahweh.
20:23.981 --> 20:30.682
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when the people sin and are kicked out of the garden, it's described as an exile.
20:31.062 --> 20:38.044
[SPEAKER_00]: If you track Genesis one through eleven, you're moving further and further and further from the presence of God.
20:38.384 --> 20:39.344
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an exile much more than
20:42.485 --> 20:46.826
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, I'm not trying to argue against the bigger theological issue.
20:47.206 --> 21:01.730
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just trying to say that what Genesis has focused on is the presence of the deity and our choice of taking matters of right and wrong into our own hands instead of relying on Yahweh to determine right and wrong.
21:02.510 --> 21:05.531
[SPEAKER_00]: that has consequences for the presence of the world.
21:05.551 --> 21:17.273
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's interesting, right, after the end of the really, well, not the end, but right in the middle of the prophetic ministry, you have all these guys going, hey, dude, seriously, you're really not doing what Y'all we want you to do.
21:18.594 --> 21:21.174
[SPEAKER_03]: And the presence of the Lord departs from the temple.
21:21.434 --> 21:26.056
[SPEAKER_03]: And then what happens immediately after that, they go into exile, right?
21:26.116 --> 21:31.617
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's playing itself out more broadly in the actual historical narrative.
21:32.580 --> 21:34.761
[SPEAKER_01]: Then, like, the claim is, what are you saying?
21:34.801 --> 21:39.424
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what is it then that made it so that we're not in this other space?
21:40.444 --> 21:44.746
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Eden's story is really different from the Gilgamesh one.
21:45.106 --> 21:50.929
[SPEAKER_01]: You have another garden story, by the way, in Ezekiel, where it's the King of Tire.
21:51.289 --> 21:55.392
[SPEAKER_01]: They describe him as being near the gods and then he's kicked out.
21:56.112 --> 21:57.132
[SPEAKER_01]: And why is he kicked out?
21:57.152 --> 21:57.793
[SPEAKER_01]: Because of pride.
21:58.697 --> 22:01.159
[SPEAKER_01]: And so people try to say what's going on in Eden is pride.
22:01.279 --> 22:02.880
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, it's not.
22:03.580 --> 22:07.943
[SPEAKER_01]: But what does cause expulsion is what you're listening for, right?
22:08.043 --> 22:11.245
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you wanted to know, basically, why don't we have the tree of life?
22:11.945 --> 22:13.186
[SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we have life?
22:14.902 --> 22:19.725
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's what Eric said is because we decided, they go straight at the word of God.
22:20.185 --> 22:23.067
[SPEAKER_01]: The serpent comes in and goes, hey, he really say.
22:23.087 --> 22:26.029
[SPEAKER_01]: He goes right at what he says.
22:26.689 --> 22:32.573
[SPEAKER_01]: And interestingly, he goes right at the relationship between the husband and the wife, right?
22:32.653 --> 22:33.313
[SPEAKER_01]: It's right there.
22:33.373 --> 22:34.193
[SPEAKER_01]: It's those two.
22:35.134 --> 22:35.714
[SPEAKER_01]: And when
22:37.256 --> 22:46.111
[SPEAKER_01]: We get our purpose in Genesis two to work the garden That's part of this this couple so as what it's trying to say is like
22:47.383 --> 22:48.624
[SPEAKER_01]: It snapped everything.
22:48.644 --> 22:58.549
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to go at why we can't be with God, as Eric says, we're rejecting that He has the words of life, essentially.
22:59.310 --> 23:12.677
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what's fascinating is by us choosing knowledge, what He's saying is, you deciding what is right and wrong, it is not good to then be able to live forever.
23:14.070 --> 23:28.862
[SPEAKER_03]: So you expand also if you become the type of creature who's not going to yield to the deity and instead try to become your own and do life on your own terms, then you remaining in the garden and working it is going to mess it up.
23:29.622 --> 23:29.822
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
23:30.063 --> 23:37.308
[SPEAKER_03]: You become the type of gardener that messes stuff up instead of actually cooperates with the land.
23:38.349 --> 23:42.552
[SPEAKER_03]: So what I'm here in a little bit is to correct me from wrong, but it seems like
23:43.513 --> 23:47.214
[SPEAKER_03]: Genesis one sets up the fact that Yahweh set up his farm.
23:48.735 --> 23:57.418
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm forming it, I'm filling it, and then somewhere in this garden, which is this place where the deity is, right?
23:57.498 --> 24:02.500
[SPEAKER_03]: He's making an image of himself and is going, hey, I'm going to co-create with you.
24:02.980 --> 24:08.524
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, the creation is going to continue, but now I'm going to do it with you and through you, right?
24:08.544 --> 24:12.688
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's not like he snapped his fingers and all of a sudden there was eight billion people, right?
24:13.028 --> 24:17.932
[SPEAKER_03]: He continues to create humans, but he's doing it through the agency of the images, right?
24:17.972 --> 24:19.093
[SPEAKER_03]: The be fruitful and multiply.
24:19.433 --> 24:25.318
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the part where it's like, for me, I really draw a really hard line between one and then two and three.
24:25.358 --> 24:30.162
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know where you are in Eric, but for me, that's where it's like Genesis one is saying, here's the initial set of.
24:30.602 --> 24:35.727
[SPEAKER_01]: And then Genesis two and three is a discussion about our fate.
24:35.867 --> 24:36.587
[SPEAKER_01]: I get that.
24:36.687 --> 24:41.992
[SPEAKER_03]: Even if you start with Genesis two, you're in a garden somewhere where rivers are coming out.
24:42.072 --> 24:42.232
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
24:42.332 --> 24:43.313
[SPEAKER_03]: And we know where that is.
24:43.833 --> 24:48.317
[SPEAKER_03]: So there's something about it that feels grounded here, not like way over there.
24:48.497 --> 24:49.937
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's part of how they're screwing with it.
24:51.218 --> 25:08.561
[SPEAKER_03]: But with relational breach against Yahweh and exile, it feels like the Eden space, the world as it is now ends up being humans in exile with the Eden place going away.
25:09.381 --> 25:14.582
[SPEAKER_03]: But then Jesus, now Yahang with me, I realize, just hang with me.
25:16.087 --> 25:20.231
[SPEAKER_03]: But then Jesus comes and begins to talk about the kingdom of God.
25:20.891 --> 25:22.933
[SPEAKER_03]: And the kingdom of God has come.
25:23.373 --> 25:24.154
[SPEAKER_03]: It has arrived.
25:25.095 --> 25:28.938
[SPEAKER_03]: And now you're talking about presence of deity again with his people.
25:29.478 --> 25:31.040
[SPEAKER_03]: Except now it's not in a garden.
25:31.660 --> 25:33.702
[SPEAKER_03]: The Holy Spirit now in dwells people.
25:34.042 --> 25:35.724
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, moves out and like spreads.
25:36.256 --> 25:36.596
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
25:37.277 --> 25:55.959
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's where I'm like, hey, what is it within bounds to say that the broken world, the world in exile is not Eden because it's busted, but that Jesus in some way is bringing Eden so to speak back
25:57.298 --> 26:03.782
[SPEAKER_03]: through the presence and work of the Holy Spirit to recover his place.
26:04.022 --> 26:09.906
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's weird because you end up having to like, so as we're talking about this, we're like mixing things.
26:10.106 --> 26:10.526
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
26:10.566 --> 26:17.150
[SPEAKER_01]: In the sense where we're saying, on the one hand, we've said, this is a way that they talk about X, Y, and Z using this garden imagery.
26:17.610 --> 26:19.612
[SPEAKER_01]: On the other hand, we're also saying, yep, but like,
26:20.612 --> 26:41.229
[SPEAKER_03]: something happened right and then something is happening totally so then like how do you describe the real fact yeah Jesus lived yeah thought died rose from the dead and now we're in dual by the Holy Spirit right and that's not a right it's not an analogy that's real right and so it's so interesting about like to say okay eating is coming back in things it's not like it's just
26:42.010 --> 27:09.387
[SPEAKER_01]: part of why that is right and part of why that's difficult to say it like that is because the garden story in Genesis two and three itself was already bending the in a sense of the genre of garden story where it's saying the garden isn't a place you can't go like because they're not built for that it's a place you're built for what yeah right the garden isn't outside of this fate it's in this fate
27:10.907 --> 27:12.108
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's busted in some way.
27:12.368 --> 27:16.429
[SPEAKER_01]: But then he says, he kicks us out of the garden because that's what the genre has to do.
27:16.810 --> 27:17.970
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to leave at some point.
27:18.270 --> 27:20.351
[SPEAKER_01]: And the consequences are fascinating for that.
27:20.731 --> 27:23.352
[SPEAKER_01]: He curses the ground.
27:25.473 --> 27:27.674
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody needs like man and woman aren't cursed.
27:28.634 --> 27:30.154
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the serpent and the ground.
27:30.535 --> 27:34.096
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the physical place when he's saying is the place that you occupy.
27:35.147 --> 27:35.827
[SPEAKER_01]: is wrong.
27:35.988 --> 27:44.733
[SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that you are going to die is because, well, it's linked to obedience to y'all way, but it's broken.
27:45.233 --> 27:46.034
[SPEAKER_01]: That's broken.
27:46.074 --> 27:50.816
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like the opposite, it's the opposite discussion of Gilgamesh.
27:50.937 --> 27:55.239
[SPEAKER_03]: But even if we don't mix it and we keep it as a way of talking about that.
27:55.259 --> 27:55.679
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
27:56.140 --> 28:00.902
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's still fair to use the terminology to say, yeah, and the way that it was,
28:01.972 --> 28:04.213
[SPEAKER_03]: before it was busted and there was exile.
28:04.373 --> 28:04.613
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
28:05.174 --> 28:06.555
[SPEAKER_03]: Jesus is mending that.
28:06.895 --> 28:07.175
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
28:07.315 --> 28:15.820
[SPEAKER_03]: Through the power of the Holy Spirit is bringing about what will end up becoming Revelation twenty-one in twenty-two.
28:15.960 --> 28:16.160
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
28:16.460 --> 28:17.080
[SPEAKER_03]: Where is it?
28:17.120 --> 28:18.401
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's a garden again.
28:18.621 --> 28:21.583
[SPEAKER_01]: Augustine's like, was that non-possible carity at Mori?
28:22.373 --> 28:24.114
[SPEAKER_03]: Now you're speaking loud and too.
28:24.194 --> 28:29.295
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's like where it is moving us from a position where we're no longer, he's going to secure it.
28:29.355 --> 28:30.436
[SPEAKER_01]: He's going to secure it.
28:30.456 --> 28:34.157
[SPEAKER_01]: He's going to secure Eden, totally or secure away the whole thing.
28:34.957 --> 28:39.359
[SPEAKER_01]: All of this whole project is, let's put it back and let's get together again.
28:39.439 --> 28:44.100
[SPEAKER_01]: We're supposed to be, it is the inverse of the ancient Nearby Stern perspective.
28:44.580 --> 28:45.901
[SPEAKER_01]: We're supposed to be
28:46.821 --> 28:47.401
[SPEAKER_01]: with God.
28:48.102 --> 28:53.045
[SPEAKER_01]: And people should know like, in the ancient world, it's the priest and the king.
28:53.485 --> 28:55.726
[SPEAKER_01]: Those people are spending all their time in the temple.
28:56.266 --> 29:01.009
[SPEAKER_01]: Even with Israel telling people, you come to the temple, you bring sacrifices to me.
29:01.029 --> 29:03.090
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to be heavily involved in the sacrificial system.
29:03.470 --> 29:05.692
[SPEAKER_01]: That in itself is like, oh my goodness.
29:06.748 --> 29:08.209
[SPEAKER_01]: Why can we go near the God?
29:08.229 --> 29:10.129
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm making you priests.
29:10.710 --> 29:11.190
[SPEAKER_01]: All of you.
29:11.470 --> 29:12.530
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, wait, what?
29:12.750 --> 29:12.951
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
29:13.151 --> 29:15.992
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he makes the whole temple thing full with garden imagery.
29:16.012 --> 29:17.292
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, see the project?
29:17.753 --> 29:23.035
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, they would have had to ritually enact that they are going near God, right?
29:23.275 --> 29:24.895
[SPEAKER_01]: And which is what they were expelled from.
29:25.856 --> 29:27.477
[SPEAKER_03]: It's almost like it's an Eden project.
29:27.617 --> 29:27.957
[SPEAKER_03]: Almost.
29:27.977 --> 29:30.498
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't like that.
29:31.796 --> 29:32.257
[SPEAKER_03]: You guys have no idea.
29:32.357 --> 29:33.178
[SPEAKER_03]: You were just long-up in a way.
29:33.198 --> 29:33.899
[SPEAKER_03]: You've been sitting.
29:33.919 --> 29:34.199
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a trough.
29:34.219 --> 29:50.918
[SPEAKER_03]: You're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, you're
29:51.118 --> 29:59.640
[SPEAKER_03]: is that however you take Eden in Genesis, there is a relational rebellion that happens there in this garden.
30:00.400 --> 30:05.682
[SPEAKER_03]: And we are supposed to be with God, but because of that relational rebellion, we're exiled.
30:06.822 --> 30:08.542
[SPEAKER_03]: But God is going, how am I going to fix that?
30:09.182 --> 30:14.944
[SPEAKER_03]: And quote unquote, kicking you out of Eden, it's not that he's like, you son's a burn, you know.
30:16.244 --> 30:22.288
[SPEAKER_03]: It's really like, hey, you're no longer appropriate gardeners because you're broken, right?
30:22.628 --> 30:29.033
[SPEAKER_03]: So as the world is suppressed, I'm actually going to be about this project of bringing
30:30.242 --> 30:32.925
[SPEAKER_03]: reality the way it's supposed to be back into order.
30:33.345 --> 30:33.946
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
30:34.767 --> 30:41.534
[SPEAKER_03]: And the heart of what drives Yahweh to do that is like Jesus said, right?
30:42.175 --> 30:43.456
[SPEAKER_03]: God so loved the world.
30:43.897 --> 30:44.077
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
30:44.257 --> 30:45.278
[SPEAKER_03]: That he gave his only son.
30:45.819 --> 30:50.063
[SPEAKER_03]: He didn't come to condemn us, but that the world through him would be saved.
30:50.764 --> 30:51.264
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, oh.
30:53.006 --> 31:05.671
[SPEAKER_03]: Wait, so God's going about this entire project with Abram, and all of them through the ages that culminates in Jesus, and then the giving the Holy Spirit to us in order to bring about an Eden restored.
31:06.871 --> 31:08.432
[SPEAKER_03]: Now we're in the presence of the deity again.
31:08.812 --> 31:11.153
[SPEAKER_03]: Where we belong, it's home for us.
31:11.793 --> 31:13.253
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you get to beautiful.
31:13.273 --> 31:16.495
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, some of them is beautiful literature ever written in Revelation.
31:17.335 --> 31:19.816
[SPEAKER_03]: We're just like, don't side that, bro.
31:22.129 --> 31:23.169
[SPEAKER_01]: I really thought you were joking.
31:23.209 --> 31:24.109
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I was in my head.
31:24.149 --> 31:26.390
[SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking about like this, I'm sorry.
31:26.410 --> 31:28.150
[SPEAKER_00]: He said most beautiful lyrics, right?
31:28.210 --> 31:29.231
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, he can't be Greek.
31:29.291 --> 31:29.511
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
31:29.531 --> 31:31.931
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like seriously.
31:31.971 --> 31:36.272
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I was like filtering out like different, like, you're filtering out everything Greek.
31:36.412 --> 31:39.573
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I like that was just like, wow, that, you know, Gilgamesh is pretty remarkable.
31:39.693 --> 31:40.293
[SPEAKER_01]: Where's he going?
31:40.313 --> 31:40.853
[SPEAKER_01]: Where's he going?
31:40.873 --> 31:41.873
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said the revelation.
31:41.913 --> 31:42.533
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, you know, like.
31:42.553 --> 31:46.234
[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't marking.
31:46.474 --> 31:49.215
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, just genuinely like, that was like from the heart.
31:55.535 --> 32:03.082
[SPEAKER_03]: It is some of the most beautiful literature ever written where it just says, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.
32:03.843 --> 32:07.166
[SPEAKER_03]: There were no longer be any mourning or crying or pain.
32:07.886 --> 32:09.208
[SPEAKER_03]: Like the old thing is gone.
32:09.908 --> 32:10.969
[SPEAKER_03]: Something new is here.
32:11.690 --> 32:14.432
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's why we at the heart of all of this is the love of God.
32:15.248 --> 32:21.092
[SPEAKER_03]: that the story, the literature itself, is pointing to the fact that we're supposed to be with y'all, way in the garden.
32:22.293 --> 32:24.334
[SPEAKER_03]: That's our natural habitat.
32:24.414 --> 32:28.957
[SPEAKER_03]: This like you're gonna moltman said, people talk about the supernatural works of Jesus.
32:29.017 --> 32:34.200
[SPEAKER_03]: When in reality, what Jesus is showing through his works, his miracles, is actually the natural thing.
32:35.061 --> 32:36.842
[SPEAKER_03]: We live in a world that's unnatural.
32:37.282 --> 32:38.363
[SPEAKER_03]: That's wounded and broken.
32:39.063 --> 32:42.505
[SPEAKER_03]: And sorry, you're gonna totally bunch that, but you go, I'm saying.
32:43.726 --> 32:46.228
[SPEAKER_03]: We think of supernatural things like, oh, that's like way.
32:46.308 --> 32:48.530
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, no, that's like, that's the real thing.
32:48.890 --> 32:51.813
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's what we live in is the busted up thing.
32:52.473 --> 32:57.157
[SPEAKER_03]: And Yahweh, because he loves is restoring us to that.
32:57.217 --> 32:59.158
[SPEAKER_03]: And we live in the middle of the Eden Project.
32:59.178 --> 33:00.559
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's all sci-fi.
33:00.640 --> 33:01.100
[SPEAKER_01]: It's awesome.
33:01.180 --> 33:02.041
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure.
33:02.061 --> 33:02.781
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
33:03.782 --> 33:04.002
[SPEAKER_03]: Eric?
33:04.423 --> 33:04.643
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
33:05.483 --> 33:06.544
[SPEAKER_00]: Any other thoughts on that?
33:07.085 --> 33:07.585
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree.
33:07.825 --> 33:08.566
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was listening.
33:08.886 --> 33:09.286
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
33:10.167 --> 33:10.808
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you serious?
33:12.076 --> 33:12.917
[SPEAKER_03]: No disagreement.
33:12.937 --> 33:13.497
[SPEAKER_03]: What's up?
33:13.617 --> 33:16.660
[SPEAKER_00]: I admit when you said, you know, as maltments, I kind of.
33:16.981 --> 33:20.564
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you're.
33:21.565 --> 33:22.485
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's my bad.
33:23.026 --> 33:23.807
[SPEAKER_03]: It's all given.
33:23.847 --> 33:24.748
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
33:25.108 --> 33:28.191
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, hey, thanks for listening in and until next time.
33:28.871 --> 33:29.212
[SPEAKER_03]: Peace.
33:30.555 --> 33:33.478
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for listening to the Restory Podcast.
33:33.778 --> 33:42.525
[SPEAKER_04]: If you like what you heard, hit that subscribe button, share it with your friends, leave us a rating, and check out our other resources at theevenproject.com.
33:43.826 --> 33:44.147
[SPEAKER_04]: Peace!
