Leadership Evolution and Trust-Building with Dr. Symeon Rodger

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Welcome, doctor Simeon Rogers, to the
revolutionary leaders podcast, and you are for
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sure a real revolutionary leader.
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So, Doctor.
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Simeon's more sedate side has expressed itself
over the years as a university professor, a
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married priest of the Eastern Orthodox Church,
and a best selling author on the personal
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transformation methods used by ancient
cultures.
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On the more edgy side, he's a martial arts
expert, a certified emergency management
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expert, and he's trained in counterterrorism by
veterans of the U.
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S.
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And Israeli Special Forces.
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Doctor.
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Simeon has written and spoken extensively on
leadership, self leadership and organizational
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culture, developing a unique approach for
helping today's companies and their leaders
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unleash their vast potential.
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Welcome to the show and thank you so much for
being here.
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I've been really looking forward to this
conversation.
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Oh, well, thank you, Helene.
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It's an honor to be here.
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Really happy to be here.
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So let's just dive right in.
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What changes do you see in the modern workplace
that have made the old standard leadership
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styles less and less effective?
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Well, I think there have been a number of
things that have happened, and, you know, we're
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we're always slow to address change.
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We we typically, as human beings, we don't
address change till we hit a wall.
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Right.
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You know, it's pretty much pretty much that's
the way it is.
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And, although, you know, individual
organizations occasionally realize they've hit
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a wall and have to change course, it's amazing
how long people can struggle with what actually
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doesn't work very well.
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And we're, you know, we're at a place where,
you know, as people tell you, we've gone from
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the, the industrial age into the information
age.
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And the information age really is the era of
the knowledge workers.
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So if you think about it, it used to be if you
looked at, you know, industrialization at the
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beginning of the 1900, if you were hiring
people to come in to work in your factory, you
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were probably hiring from off the farm.
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They were coming in.
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They had absolutely no clue about your
processes.
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You knew your processes.
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So the the expertise did reside at the top.
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So there was a typically a very pyramid type of
of command and control structure, which we call
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I call the hierarchical command and control
model.
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And it made sense at the time in a sense
because you've got, you know, the farther up
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you went in the chain, the more you the more
you knew, the more expertise you had.
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But now it's almost flipped.
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So the pyramid is almost inverted.
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You're constantly hiring people because they
know a whole lot more than you do.
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You're not hiring people to tighten a widget.
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You're hiring people so they can come in and
contribute their expertise and tell you how
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things really should be.
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And we haven't really made that adjustment
because we still have, you know, in a lot of a
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lot of corporate cultures, this idea that, oh,
gee.
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I'm I'm I'm at a more and more senior level.
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Therefore, I know more and more.
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My judgment's better and better than the people
I'm hiring.
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No.
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It's probably a lot worse, because they they
may spend about the particular issue you're
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asking them to, to, you know, to formulate a
plan forward on or whatever it is.
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They have thought about it for maybe dozens or
hundreds of hours, in relation to your
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organization, and you spent, you know, maybe 30
minutes.
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So whose judgment's gonna be better?
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But we have to you know, it it's it really does
take, in a sense, a much more humble approach
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on the part of leaders to to understand that
today's landscape is very, very different.
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I mean, even for, you know, even for you and I,
you know, as business owners, and I'm sure you
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may have found this too if you've ever
outsourced to anyone or or hired anybody for
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anything, that you're doing it because they
they know something you don't or they do
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something better than you can.
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And, usually, you want to listen to what they
say more or less depending.
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Right?
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You know, obviously, there's your own judgment,
but still.
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And so that's one of the major things is that
huge change in the landscape.
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So are you saying that leadership now is more
situational than absolute?
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Oh, I think that's really the case.
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It's absolutely the case.
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And, you know, if you go back to well, World
War 2 is a really interesting leadership study
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case, and when we can talk more about that in a
minute.
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But if you think about it, here you were in,
say, okay, Pearl Harbor happens.
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Let's put it in the American context.
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Pearl Harbor happens.
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Suddenly, you're in the middle of a war on two
fronts, and you have to actually rapidly build
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up your armed forces.
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So you get you're you're pulling in literally
hundreds of thousands of draftees, who don't
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know anything.
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They're full of enthusiasm.
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They're full of the proverbial piss and
vinegar, but not much else.
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And so what do you do?
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Well, okay.
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You you need a a firm hand.
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You need to be able to because you're the
people in the military already.
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You know the lay of the land.
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You have to train these people.
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And so it's very regimented.
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It's very do this because I'm telling you, it's
no.
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I don't care what your judgment is.
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You know, to a certain point, I mean yeah.
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Yeah.
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Once once they go out and and they're actually
in combat for a while, then they actually have
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judgment.
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But and that's when you defer to the people on
on the front lines to to know their situation.
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But before that, no, you don't.
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Of course.
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It would make no sense to do that.
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So that's a kind of situation where and it
that's very much akin to the situation in
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industrialization initially, right, that we
already mentioned.
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If you're bringing people in from the farm to
tighten that widget, well, you gotta show them
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how, and you know how to do it, and they don't.
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Simple.
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So you did I remember when we spoke earlier, we
we spoke about, like, the fascinating
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historical origin of effective leadership, the
more effective leadership style.
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Can you talk a little bit more about that?
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Yeah.
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And this is this is really a case of
extraordinary leadership that more and more is
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slowly, very slowly, beginning to permeate, you
know, corporate culture.
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And it comes also from the 2nd World War, but
it's a counterpoint to what what we just talked
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about, very much a counterpoint because, okay,
if you go back to the the North African desert
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campaign, so you have the British 8th army,
facing off against the Germans facing off
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against, general Rommel's Afrika Korps, the
famous Afrika Korps.
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And it's a unique situation because, of course,
you know, if you think about it from the time
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that from your I'm gonna do a map here from
your perspective when the Germans land in
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Tunisia and the British are over here in Egypt.
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From the time the Germans land till the time
they get theoretically all the way to the Nile
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River, and they never quite got that far, but
that whole way of several 1000 kilometers is
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through Tunisia, Algeria, Libya into Egypt.
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All of that's nothing but desert.
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Right?
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So from the Mediterranean coast, several 100
kilometers or miles to the south, it's totally
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desolate.
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It's absolute there's nothing there.
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That must have been a real shock to Germans.
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It was a shock to everybody.
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It was just a really weird place to be, but
there were 2 British officers who kind of
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independently of each other, realized that this
presented a huge opportunity, a huge
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opportunity to disrupt the German supply line.
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So this was the formation of the the origin of
what we now know still today as the British
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SAS, the Special Air Service, one of the
world's top special forces units.
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This is where it started along with another
unit called the Long Range Desert Group.
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And so there are 2 commanders, David Sterling
of the SAS and Ralph Bagnold for the the Long
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Range Desert Group.
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They went to their commanders and said, look.
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We can do an amazing we have an amazing
opportunity here, but you have to give us a
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free hand to do it.
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And that ran totally counter, as you can
imagine, to British Army culture and that sort
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of that kind of discipline and control.
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And so with nothing to lose and their back sort
of against the wall, they agreed.
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And that's what it often takes, back against
the wall.
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And and so both of these guys were thinking,
okay.
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So what do I need to make this work?
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Obviously, I need the best in the world.
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I need I need world class people in this small
team I'm gonna build to do this, and I need
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certain types of expertise.
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Like, I need people who are desert navigators,
the best desert navigators in the world who
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know the Sahara inside out.
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Because if we don't have that, we're gonna get
stuck in the middle of nowhere, and we're going
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to die of thirst.
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Like, literally, it's life and death.
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Right?
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You run out of gas.
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You run out of water.
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You're Yeah.
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Toast.
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Right?
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Plus, we need the best explosive experts.
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We need, commune best communications experts
because communications is pretty tricky, and we
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need all that.
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So they went looking both of them went looking
for the best in the world.
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And where did they find them?
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They found them in sorry?
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Because you're I I said Canada only because
you're Canadian.
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No.
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They found them in the brig.
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They found them in jail.
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Oh.
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They were in British army
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Oh, yeah.
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They were in British army jail because, you
know, think about who these people were.
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They're the best in the world, so they have
they know what they can do.
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They know how capable they are.
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Mhmm.
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And they have a very, very low BS threshold.
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Let's call it that.
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I love it.
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Low.
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So they're always getting in trouble because
they're always saying to their commanders,
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you're full of it.
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You don't know what you're talking about.
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And so first of all, Sterling and Begnold have
to get these guys out of jail.
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And then they can form their units.
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Awesome.
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Let's go.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And then they can form their units and actually
go.
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But then they also realized what they needed
was not just expertise, but they needed an
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amazing amount of trust.
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Because if you're, you know, if you're with a
dozen guys at most zipping through the desert,
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100 of kilometers south of anybody, and you're
depending on you're depending on them,
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basically, because they are going to get you
back alive.
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They they're the only thing that stands between
you and certain death, either from the desert
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or the Germans, but the desert's slightly more
dangerous maybe at that point.
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So there's this huge factor of trust.
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And part of the way that they, you know,
realized that they had to build trust was they
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had to say to everybody, look.
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We're a team.
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We get through this together, or we're gonna
live together or die together.
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So as far as all this rank and saluting stuff
goes, screw it all.
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Let's rip off the rank badges, throw them in
the garbage because they're not gonna help, and
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we're gonna plan everything together because
you guys have huge expertise.
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It's not as if, you know, I, the commander,
know more about communications than you do
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because I hired you because you know or you
about explosives because you know and I don't.
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Whatever it is.
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Right?
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So in this so it it kind of turned that pyramid
on its head.
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Right?
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It's it's it's saying, okay.
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You guys are the experts.
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What do we do?
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Yeah.
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And this has continued even till modern times.
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In fact, just recently, I heard an American
special forces guy in an interview talking
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about an incident in oh, was it Iraq or
Afghanistan?
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I think it was Iraq.
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They were planning some information
intelligence come through about a high value
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target, and they were kind of under pressure to
go get this guy, and they were working with the
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SAS.
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And so the the Americans and the SAS together
were gonna do this, but the SAS, officer said
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to his guys, who were not officers.
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They were noncoms, maybe privates.
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I don't know.
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He said, look.
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You guys go into that next room.
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Take 10 minutes.
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Evaluate everything we know about this
operation.
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Tell us if it's gonna work.
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And they came back and gave a absolutely killer
briefing on why this was a really stupid idea
235
00:12:08,664 --> 00:12:10,024
and would get them all killed.
236
00:12:10,024 --> 00:12:16,904
And the American who who saw this was just so
impressed by it, but this is, special forces
237
00:12:16,904 --> 00:12:17,625
around the world.
238
00:12:17,625 --> 00:12:23,580
A lot of them follow this type of model where
they they defer to the people under them at a
239
00:12:23,580 --> 00:12:27,019
certain point because they realize these people
are the experts.
240
00:12:27,019 --> 00:12:28,220
These people have the skills.
241
00:12:28,220 --> 00:12:30,480
That's why we hold them in.
242
00:12:31,179 --> 00:12:35,545
So it's it it really becomes that kind of
thing.
243
00:12:35,545 --> 00:12:40,585
And, you know, some, some some corporate
cultures have taken this on board, but it's, of
244
00:12:40,585 --> 00:12:46,904
course, difficult to do because it runs totally
counter to everything you have been taught, and
245
00:12:46,904 --> 00:12:53,009
it runs, totally counter to not just that
hierarchical command and control model, but I
246
00:12:53,009 --> 00:12:55,750
think for our instinctive human need to control
things.
247
00:12:56,370 --> 00:12:56,870
Mhmm.
248
00:12:57,410 --> 00:13:00,769
Because it's basically saying, okay.
249
00:13:00,769 --> 00:13:03,110
I'm willing to tolerate a bit of chaos here.
250
00:13:04,695 --> 00:13:10,855
So what I heard about what you just said and
how it applies today, I'm thinking about how
251
00:13:10,855 --> 00:13:12,695
you apply that to building trust on the team.
252
00:13:12,695 --> 00:13:15,254
And let's say you do have that that working.
253
00:13:15,254 --> 00:13:20,970
Let's say you are leading, in this way without
the big hierarchical structure.
254
00:13:21,029 --> 00:13:22,889
You're allowing people to make decisions.
255
00:13:23,269 --> 00:13:27,210
What we need what that group had was the low BS
tolerance.
256
00:13:27,830 --> 00:13:29,269
So you've got a team of people.
257
00:13:29,269 --> 00:13:31,269
I was thinking, how do they get that trust?
258
00:13:31,269 --> 00:13:35,404
Like because there's no festering of little
issues.
259
00:13:35,465 --> 00:13:37,625
Everything is just boom boom boom.
260
00:13:37,625 --> 00:13:40,605
They're they're tough, and they're calling it,
and they're moving through it.
261
00:13:40,745 --> 00:13:46,470
And, and they're not putting up with silly BS,
and they're not putting up with big BS.
262
00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:51,029
So and I think that's a little bit of what's
difficult and challenging in the workforce
263
00:13:51,029 --> 00:13:56,309
today is that it's difficult to work out what
is the BS you need to deal with and what is the
264
00:13:56,309 --> 00:13:58,410
BS you don't need to deal with.
265
00:13:58,535 --> 00:14:03,735
And then there's a lot of BS that leaders are
afraid to deal with because they don't wanna
266
00:14:03,735 --> 00:14:09,195
say the wrong thing or, you know, insult the
wrong person because there's a whole lot of
267
00:14:10,709 --> 00:14:12,889
protectors that are new in the workforce.
268
00:14:13,750 --> 00:14:18,169
Maybe not new, but are wanted in the workforce
now.
269
00:14:19,029 --> 00:14:26,915
And so it's difficult to to manage to get the b
s out of the team, to maintain the trust.
270
00:14:28,174 --> 00:14:28,975
It really isn't.
271
00:14:28,975 --> 00:14:30,415
And, you know, it works at a number of levels.
272
00:14:30,415 --> 00:14:30,654
Right?
273
00:14:30,654 --> 00:14:34,815
Because you gotta have on the team itself, you
have to have people who who like and trust each
274
00:14:34,815 --> 00:14:35,315
other.
275
00:14:35,774 --> 00:14:37,695
So that's that's sort of challenge number 1.
276
00:14:37,695 --> 00:14:43,730
If you can get past that, then you gotta deal
with the fact that, okay, will what we say what
277
00:14:43,730 --> 00:14:46,629
we say, will it be taken on board or will it be
dismissed?
278
00:14:47,170 --> 00:14:47,330
Mhmm.
279
00:14:47,330 --> 00:14:49,490
Will it be watered down as it goes up the
chain?
280
00:14:49,490 --> 00:14:52,754
Will it be shoved to the side?
281
00:14:52,754 --> 00:14:54,214
Is it politically inconvenient?
282
00:14:54,674 --> 00:14:54,995
Right?
283
00:14:54,995 --> 00:14:57,154
Is it politically not what people wanna hear?
284
00:14:57,154 --> 00:14:58,595
And often often it is.
285
00:14:58,595 --> 00:15:02,115
Often, if anything, you know, anything that's
gonna make a difference is probably gonna be
286
00:15:02,115 --> 00:15:02,615
contrary.
287
00:15:03,475 --> 00:15:07,220
And contrary doesn't, you know, go well often
in corporate cultures.
288
00:15:07,519 --> 00:15:11,860
And contrary to something that somebody in a
leadership position has signed off on.
289
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:12,639
Right?
290
00:15:12,639 --> 00:15:13,139
Yep.
291
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:13,940
Yep.
292
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,080
So Yeah.
293
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:16,399
Yeah.
294
00:15:16,399 --> 00:15:16,899
Exactly.
295
00:15:17,039 --> 00:15:18,959
People don't like to be told that they're
wrong.
296
00:15:18,959 --> 00:15:24,294
And but, again, it's you know, part of it is
that what do you want?
297
00:15:24,294 --> 00:15:27,014
Do you want results, or do you want to protect
your ego?
298
00:15:27,014 --> 00:15:31,495
And that's That's the that's the thing
everybody has to ask themselves.
299
00:15:31,495 --> 00:15:31,735
Right?
300
00:15:31,735 --> 00:15:35,070
Do you want because, ultimately, when you get
results, you look better anyway.
301
00:15:35,309 --> 00:15:36,929
So Yeah.
302
00:15:37,070 --> 00:15:43,809
So what would be some advice, some suggestions
you would you would give to, someone that's
303
00:15:43,870 --> 00:15:48,785
being promoted a newly promoted leader or just
into a leadership position?
304
00:15:54,605 --> 00:16:00,045
There there's a a Greek proverb, amatiosu
tessora, meaning you need 4 eyes.
305
00:16:00,045 --> 00:16:02,580
You need it's like saying you need eyes in the
back of your head.
306
00:16:02,820 --> 00:16:03,320
Uh-huh.
307
00:16:03,779 --> 00:16:04,179
Right?
308
00:16:04,179 --> 00:16:09,379
And it it means just be aware of your situation
because, a lot of it is situationally based.
309
00:16:09,379 --> 00:16:14,100
So what I what I a lot of what I see is people
going into these types of positions, and they
310
00:16:14,100 --> 00:16:19,035
run into a whole bunch of things they've dimly
thought about or never had to deal with before.
311
00:16:19,035 --> 00:16:21,274
Part of it is that huge amount of politics, of
course
312
00:16:21,754 --> 00:16:22,254
Mhmm.
313
00:16:23,835 --> 00:16:26,254
Where at a certain point, everything becomes
politicized.
314
00:16:27,035 --> 00:16:31,370
And the other thing too is is often
overwhelmed.
315
00:16:32,230 --> 00:16:37,110
A lot of people who are put in these positions
are simply they're suddenly overwhelmed with
316
00:16:37,110 --> 00:16:39,129
the sheer volume of what they have to do.
317
00:16:39,509 --> 00:16:44,535
And part of that is because part of it's
because they're dealing with a lot of broken
318
00:16:44,595 --> 00:16:45,975
processes in the workplace.
319
00:16:46,035 --> 00:16:51,735
A lot of workplaces have absolutely terrible
processes, which are slowly evolved over time.
320
00:16:51,875 --> 00:16:56,309
And, you know, it's a bit like a LEGO set that
people have added 1 piece to every year, and it
321
00:16:56,790 --> 00:16:59,129
and you forget what the original was supposed
to look like.
322
00:17:00,870 --> 00:17:03,930
And part of it is lack of administrative
support.
323
00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:04,869
Mhmm.
324
00:17:04,869 --> 00:17:08,535
Because often they're expected to be their own
admin person.
325
00:17:08,914 --> 00:17:10,375
And here's the bigger issue.
326
00:17:10,434 --> 00:17:16,355
I think for a lot of a lot of organizations,
they say they want leaders, and they tell these
327
00:17:16,355 --> 00:17:17,315
people, guess what?
328
00:17:17,315 --> 00:17:19,555
You're now in a leadership position, quote,
unquote.
329
00:17:19,555 --> 00:17:21,894
Let's put that in air quotes because it really
is.
330
00:17:22,789 --> 00:17:24,169
They're not looking for leaders.
331
00:17:24,630 --> 00:17:25,849
They're looking for managers.
332
00:17:27,429 --> 00:17:29,029
Basically, they're looking for managers.
333
00:17:29,029 --> 00:17:29,429
You know?
334
00:17:29,429 --> 00:17:33,669
So what they're looking for is not someone
because if you look at the definition of a
335
00:17:33,669 --> 00:17:37,769
leader, a leader is someone who takes you from
point a to point b.
336
00:17:38,554 --> 00:17:44,734
A manager is someone who basically keeps
existing processes running.
337
00:17:45,355 --> 00:17:45,855
Yeah.
338
00:17:46,554 --> 00:17:46,875
Mhmm.
339
00:17:46,875 --> 00:17:51,755
And sometimes those existing processes, as
comfortable as they may be, are not really a
340
00:17:51,755 --> 00:17:51,994
help.
341
00:17:51,994 --> 00:17:54,839
But there's a huge difference between being a
manager and a leader.
342
00:17:55,220 --> 00:18:00,440
And sometimes people are so busy managing that
they don't even have time to be a leader.
343
00:18:01,059 --> 00:18:01,720
A 100%.
344
00:18:02,740 --> 00:18:07,095
And and also because a lot of the time, they're
promoted because they're very good technically,
345
00:18:07,095 --> 00:18:10,315
at what what the what the job is.
346
00:18:10,775 --> 00:18:17,095
And so the ability to pull themselves out of
that, they have to be given the space to get
347
00:18:17,095 --> 00:18:19,559
out of the weeds to be in that leadership role.
348
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:20,600
And Yeah.
349
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:21,000
Right.
350
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:21,320
So that
351
00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,160
leads to a, you know, a couple of issues.
352
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:23,400
Right?
353
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:28,360
One of them is they because of their their
default setting is to default like all human
354
00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:30,380
beings, we tend to default to what we know.
355
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,400
And if they know what's in the weeds, they'll
they'll dive down.
356
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,535
And suddenly you've got a micromanaging
situation going on, which is very uncomfortable
357
00:18:37,595 --> 00:18:42,494
for everybody, and ineffective, inefficient,
and just alienates people.
358
00:18:42,554 --> 00:18:49,035
And then, you know, the other thing is you've
you're promoting people who are good
359
00:18:49,035 --> 00:18:50,494
technically, as you said.
360
00:18:51,350 --> 00:18:53,930
But I've, you know, I've I've heard people tell
me, look.
361
00:18:54,150 --> 00:18:58,950
There are some people who should never ever be
given authority over another human being no
362
00:18:58,950 --> 00:19:01,930
matter how smart they are because that's not
what they're good at.
363
00:19:01,990 --> 00:19:03,430
I I've experienced that.
364
00:19:03,430 --> 00:19:04,789
I had a leader just like that.
365
00:19:04,789 --> 00:19:11,275
Just completely there there's a certain amount
of empathy that's involved Yeah.
366
00:19:11,674 --> 00:19:12,234
In leading.
367
00:19:12,234 --> 00:19:16,335
And if you're not capable of that, then it's
it's very challenging.
368
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:19,000
Oh, definitely.
369
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:19,480
It would be.
370
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:25,900
I mean, you know, there's a maybe they should
go and get their get a, you know, a personality
371
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,619
analysis through whether it's a disc or some
other, you know, system like that and realize
372
00:19:31,115 --> 00:19:34,555
have a it enables people to have a good look
at, okay, what are your strengths and
373
00:19:34,555 --> 00:19:35,055
weaknesses?
374
00:19:35,275 --> 00:19:41,375
Because there are people who have very little,
very little empathy or very little, emotional
375
00:19:41,994 --> 00:19:46,200
range, and that can be very, very difficult.
376
00:19:47,460 --> 00:19:47,940
Yes.
377
00:19:47,940 --> 00:19:48,500
You know?
378
00:19:48,500 --> 00:19:49,880
Interesting you say that.
379
00:19:50,019 --> 00:19:54,019
And sometimes when you say, they don't have a
big range, they might they just sometimes they
380
00:19:54,019 --> 00:19:55,059
don't have a lot in the middle.
381
00:19:55,059 --> 00:19:59,115
They have really nice and great and then really
punitive when things aren't going well.
382
00:19:59,194 --> 00:20:02,794
There's just not a lot of this this scale is
not there.
383
00:20:02,794 --> 00:20:03,115
But
384
00:20:03,434 --> 00:20:03,914
Yeah.
385
00:20:03,914 --> 00:20:04,154
No.
386
00:20:04,154 --> 00:20:04,654
Absolutely.
387
00:20:04,795 --> 00:20:05,694
That's the case.
388
00:20:06,474 --> 00:20:08,394
And I you know, I've met people like this.
389
00:20:10,954 --> 00:20:12,075
I was I've been trained.
390
00:20:12,075 --> 00:20:15,029
I'm a trainer in the DISC personality system.
391
00:20:15,029 --> 00:20:18,170
DISC is one of the best systems there is and
the most flexible.
392
00:20:18,710 --> 00:20:20,869
And, you know, it's absolutely amazing.
393
00:20:20,869 --> 00:20:26,585
Even the guy who trained me in it was what we
call a high d personality.
394
00:20:26,724 --> 00:20:28,265
So very dominant personality.
395
00:20:28,325 --> 00:20:32,644
So he said, look, telling me that that
something is nice means nothing to me.
396
00:20:32,644 --> 00:20:34,825
Telling me something is good, that means
something.
397
00:20:35,125 --> 00:20:38,744
So there's there's really no there's very
little emotional range there.
398
00:20:39,125 --> 00:20:39,625
Right?
399
00:20:39,924 --> 00:20:42,779
And but he was aware of it.
400
00:20:42,779 --> 00:20:43,019
Right?
401
00:20:43,019 --> 00:20:44,880
So he was aware of his own limitations.
402
00:20:45,019 --> 00:20:49,599
And, unfortunately, a lot of people aren't
aware of those limitations.
403
00:20:50,380 --> 00:20:53,440
And you put someone who should never be in
charge of anybody.
404
00:20:53,775 --> 00:20:56,674
Well, how do you know they shouldn't be in
charge of anybody ever?
405
00:20:57,214 --> 00:21:00,974
Well, you don't really until you unfortunately,
sometimes, since you put them there.
406
00:21:00,974 --> 00:21:05,214
Because I I've had it I've seen it once or
twice where someone ends up in a in a
407
00:21:05,214 --> 00:21:10,990
leadership position where you thought they
would work out, and they were a total disaster
408
00:21:11,609 --> 00:21:11,929
Yeah.
409
00:21:12,009 --> 00:21:14,190
From the point of view of of dealing with
people.
410
00:21:14,890 --> 00:21:15,289
Yeah.
411
00:21:15,289 --> 00:21:19,069
And the sooner you can identify that as a
leader, the the better it is for everybody
412
00:21:19,130 --> 00:21:19,630
involved.
413
00:21:19,929 --> 00:21:24,545
It's making me think of, you know, when you
when you when you promote someone or have
414
00:21:24,545 --> 00:21:31,825
someone take over a team, the value in doing,
like, a disc profile for the whole team for
415
00:21:31,825 --> 00:21:32,325
everybody.
416
00:21:32,945 --> 00:21:40,390
And, also, having let's say, someone like
myself, a 3rd party neutral, come in and do an
417
00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:42,070
assessment of where the team is at.
418
00:21:42,070 --> 00:21:45,269
So you kind of give the leader the four eyes.
419
00:21:45,269 --> 00:21:46,390
Here are your four eyes.
420
00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:50,410
Like, I've I've I've looked 360, and this is
what you're walking into.
421
00:21:50,794 --> 00:21:52,815
Would be a great way to set them up to succeed.
422
00:21:54,154 --> 00:21:54,394
Yeah.
423
00:21:54,394 --> 00:21:58,554
That would really be a help because it does
provide that self awareness to the individuals,
424
00:21:58,554 --> 00:22:01,534
but also to the person who's coming into it and
for them too.
425
00:22:01,994 --> 00:22:03,375
So you realize, okay.
426
00:22:03,799 --> 00:22:07,720
Because with with each type of person, as you
know, you have to you have to talk to them in a
427
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:08,940
a slightly different way.
428
00:22:09,159 --> 00:22:12,700
You you realize certain things resonate with
each type of person.
429
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:18,279
And you may find even that with us that we in a
given corporate culture, you may be hiring
430
00:22:18,279 --> 00:22:23,204
people, a lot of people with very similar
profiles, like, say, very detail oriented
431
00:22:23,204 --> 00:22:29,625
people sometimes, or very very strong
communicators sometimes.
432
00:22:29,684 --> 00:22:31,704
You would hope except those are hard to find.
433
00:22:31,845 --> 00:22:34,679
And, you know, all of this, so it really
depends.
434
00:22:35,059 --> 00:22:37,480
But it's it is not a bad thing to do.
435
00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:42,659
So you've got that overwhelm going on, and
you've got that, you know, the the whole
436
00:22:42,659 --> 00:22:43,539
culture going on.
437
00:22:43,539 --> 00:22:48,244
And the culture is a is a problem too because
every corporate culture, every organizational
438
00:22:48,625 --> 00:22:55,025
culture instinctively will do what any culture
does, which is it will when it takes you in, it
439
00:22:55,025 --> 00:22:58,964
will train you or retrain you according to its
own model.
440
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:00,599
Right?
441
00:23:00,599 --> 00:23:03,079
So what that really means is, yeah, okay.
442
00:23:03,079 --> 00:23:06,220
I'm going into a leadership position in
organization x.
443
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:12,904
Automatically, I am going to be going to be
slowly indoctrinated with all of their
444
00:23:12,904 --> 00:23:16,044
expectations, their way of doing things, their
way of thinking.
445
00:23:19,464 --> 00:23:24,125
And, yeah, that's okay, but it's also a danger.
446
00:23:24,700 --> 00:23:24,940
Right?
447
00:23:24,940 --> 00:23:30,299
Because if you're if you're in a leadership
position, you're expected to help take the the
448
00:23:30,299 --> 00:23:36,539
organization from point a to point b or even
better from point a to point c, then it's going
449
00:23:36,539 --> 00:23:40,015
to take rocking the boat.
450
00:23:40,394 --> 00:23:44,654
And organizational cultures don't like boat
rocking, which is part of the problem.
451
00:23:45,914 --> 00:23:46,634
It really is.
452
00:23:46,634 --> 00:23:50,494
So speaking to about boat rocking, let's talk
about resilience.
453
00:23:53,450 --> 00:24:00,170
My personal observation is that there's been
there's a decrease in resilience in the
454
00:24:00,170 --> 00:24:02,349
workplace right now and an increase in
sensitivity.
455
00:24:02,490 --> 00:24:08,035
Do you feel like it's, it's a leader's
responsibility to be developing that resilience
456
00:24:08,035 --> 00:24:10,055
within their teams, within their people.
457
00:24:11,555 --> 00:24:11,714
Right.
458
00:24:11,714 --> 00:24:17,234
So when you're talking about resilience in this
sense, what you're talking about is, the
459
00:24:17,234 --> 00:24:22,029
personal resilience of the of everybody on the
team plus the team as a whole.
460
00:24:22,490 --> 00:24:22,990
Yes.
461
00:24:23,130 --> 00:24:24,009
And all of that.
462
00:24:24,009 --> 00:24:26,569
And I, you know, I think that's it's absolutely
true.
463
00:24:26,569 --> 00:24:30,190
I think there's a decrease in in personal
resilience among people.
464
00:24:30,569 --> 00:24:35,955
And I think as we as we hire more and more into
younger and younger generations, I think we're
465
00:24:35,955 --> 00:24:38,615
gonna see that very much.
466
00:24:40,674 --> 00:24:42,355
So there is that.
467
00:24:42,355 --> 00:24:44,914
There's a lot of but there's a lot of life
pressure on people.
468
00:24:44,914 --> 00:24:45,154
Right?
469
00:24:45,154 --> 00:24:47,734
There's people just face a lot of pressures in
life.
470
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,480
And that is one of the things that that
organizational cultures have to come to grips
471
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:57,440
with, especially now, is, you know, people have
their home life.
472
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,625
They have their their significant other, their
family, their whatever.
473
00:25:01,625 --> 00:25:08,904
So we have all this going on, and you have to
find a way to facilitate their contribution to
474
00:25:08,904 --> 00:25:09,404
you.
475
00:25:09,944 --> 00:25:15,804
In order to do that, you have to take as much
stress off of them as you possibly can.
476
00:25:16,789 --> 00:25:21,990
And which means giving them time to deal with
things, giving them the the space to deal with
477
00:25:21,990 --> 00:25:22,490
things.
478
00:25:23,990 --> 00:25:26,630
And, yeah, you'll you'll have to be more and
more flexible with that.
479
00:25:26,630 --> 00:25:29,929
You'll have to give people more vacation time
maybe than you used to.
480
00:25:30,904 --> 00:25:36,444
You'll have to, and that's especially the case,
I think, in the United States where, you know,
481
00:25:36,904 --> 00:25:41,144
if we look at the developed world and the the
the amount of vacation time that people get in
482
00:25:41,144 --> 00:25:45,820
the United States, it's astronomically smaller
than people in every other developed country
483
00:25:45,820 --> 00:25:46,380
just about.
484
00:25:46,380 --> 00:25:46,880
Yeah.
485
00:25:47,180 --> 00:25:47,420
Okay.
486
00:25:47,420 --> 00:25:49,840
Well, what do you expect that to do to social
stability?
487
00:25:50,539 --> 00:25:54,480
Probably not a good idea, and it's probably not
gonna help you overall as an organization.
488
00:25:55,315 --> 00:25:57,875
So, again, it's looking at all of this and
thinking, okay.
489
00:25:57,875 --> 00:26:00,934
What can I do to facilitate their contribution?
490
00:26:00,994 --> 00:26:05,174
Because I need these people's contribution or
else I or else we sync as an organization.
491
00:26:07,154 --> 00:26:08,434
So, yeah, I think you're right.
492
00:26:08,434 --> 00:26:11,170
You know, we have to look at it from that point
of view.
493
00:26:11,170 --> 00:26:18,529
There is less and less, I think, personal
resilience when it comes to to people, but
494
00:26:18,529 --> 00:26:23,809
there are also more exogenous factors on
organizations now than they're used to dealing
495
00:26:23,809 --> 00:26:24,549
with too.
496
00:26:24,769 --> 00:26:31,865
If you think about I mean, just if we think
about the kind of exogenous factors
497
00:26:31,865 --> 00:26:36,765
organization organizations have been facing in
the last few years Yeah.
498
00:26:37,065 --> 00:26:41,325
From a climate point of view, for instance,
it's it's just worse and worse.
499
00:26:41,809 --> 00:26:42,309
Mhmm.
500
00:26:42,529 --> 00:26:42,849
Right?
501
00:26:42,849 --> 00:26:50,369
I remember I was at a, a a it was a talk given
by someone who's a leader in the US in in
502
00:26:50,369 --> 00:26:52,869
emergency management business continuity
planning.
503
00:26:53,410 --> 00:26:55,410
And this person was saying, yeah.
504
00:26:55,410 --> 00:26:59,434
Well, you know, I was working with companies on
the eastern seaboard of the US, and we would
505
00:26:59,434 --> 00:27:05,035
always tell them, have make sure you have a
backup site where you can continue your work if
506
00:27:05,035 --> 00:27:10,714
something goes badly where you are, and always
make sure your backup site is about 50 miles
507
00:27:10,714 --> 00:27:11,214
away.
508
00:27:12,659 --> 00:27:18,359
And then along came hurricane whichever, I
forget which, and it it shut down electricity
509
00:27:18,419 --> 00:27:20,819
for 500 miles inland or something like that.
510
00:27:20,819 --> 00:27:22,839
And suddenly the 50 miles meant nothing.
511
00:27:24,525 --> 00:27:25,005
Yeah.
512
00:27:25,005 --> 00:27:25,325
Okay.
513
00:27:25,325 --> 00:27:31,005
Well, you're gonna have to think about this
because, you know, if your if you if your
514
00:27:31,005 --> 00:27:36,365
company is in somebody else's supply chain,
they're gonna wanna know that you are able to
515
00:27:36,365 --> 00:27:37,984
continue business and deliver.
516
00:27:38,765 --> 00:27:39,265
Right?
517
00:27:39,769 --> 00:27:44,809
So if you're let's say you're providing the
let's say you build land landing gear for the
518
00:27:44,809 --> 00:27:50,089
next batch of Boeing 780 sevens or something,
I'm I'm sorry.
519
00:27:50,089 --> 00:27:52,484
They're gonna wanna be sure that they can get
that.
520
00:27:52,565 --> 00:27:56,565
And landing gear may not be the sexiest part of
the plane, but you can't go anywhere without
521
00:27:56,565 --> 00:27:57,065
it.
522
00:27:59,924 --> 00:28:05,765
So you've spoken about her society reaching an
impasse with regard to leadership across the
523
00:28:05,765 --> 00:28:06,265
board.
524
00:28:06,724 --> 00:28:09,440
Can you speak a little bit about that?
525
00:28:11,819 --> 00:28:17,579
Well, I mean, maybe this is my personal
observation, but I I really do feel that as a
526
00:28:17,579 --> 00:28:23,684
society, we in the west are have reached an
impasse in a number of areas.
527
00:28:23,684 --> 00:28:28,244
And I think of it in in some ways, it's really
an overall leadership impasse, but it has to do
528
00:28:28,325 --> 00:28:33,865
it manifests itself in many ways in in in
political life, in economic life.
529
00:28:34,210 --> 00:28:38,850
It certainly manifests in those those spheres
where, you know, there are fewer and fewer new
530
00:28:38,850 --> 00:28:39,350
ideas.
531
00:28:40,049 --> 00:28:44,950
It's more ideas tend to be more and more
rehashed and regurgitation of what already
532
00:28:45,570 --> 00:28:48,575
either has stopped working or never did work.
533
00:28:48,575 --> 00:28:48,974
Mhmm.
534
00:28:48,974 --> 00:28:52,194
But, certainly, not everything that used to
work does work.
535
00:28:53,375 --> 00:28:58,174
And so we're faced with new challenges, but we
really don't have tools to to meet the
536
00:28:58,174 --> 00:28:58,654
challenges.
537
00:28:58,654 --> 00:29:01,769
It's a bit like, you know, Einstein's famous
dictum.
538
00:29:01,769 --> 00:29:05,789
No problem can be solved using the level of
consciousness that created it.
539
00:29:06,170 --> 00:29:07,529
And that's kind of where we are.
540
00:29:07,529 --> 00:29:11,950
We're trying to use old think to address new
and seemingly insurmountable problems.
541
00:29:12,570 --> 00:29:18,164
And, you know, we still have no idea how to
square the need for growth, the growth
542
00:29:18,164 --> 00:29:24,265
provided, say, by the capitalist system in
general with the needs of society for stability
543
00:29:24,404 --> 00:29:26,105
and and sustainability.
544
00:29:27,204 --> 00:29:28,884
How do we how do we square that?
545
00:29:28,884 --> 00:29:37,279
And we also are facing, and are about to face
in, you know, big time, a real problem we have
546
00:29:37,339 --> 00:29:41,919
never in living memory faced and long before
living memory, and that's population decline.
547
00:29:43,015 --> 00:29:45,994
So population is declining everywhere in the
developed world.
548
00:29:46,375 --> 00:29:48,695
And what does that mean?
549
00:29:48,695 --> 00:29:53,654
Well, you know, one, one geopolitical analyst,
Peter Zayin, said, look.
550
00:29:53,654 --> 00:29:58,690
We don't have an economic model for that
because for 500 years, every assumption we've
551
00:29:58,690 --> 00:30:01,750
made has to do with population getting bigger.
552
00:30:02,609 --> 00:30:03,730
So, you know, when you do
553
00:30:03,890 --> 00:30:07,250
good news it's good news for the planet,
though, I think.
554
00:30:07,250 --> 00:30:07,750
Yep.
555
00:30:07,809 --> 00:30:13,794
The less the less humans on the planet, the the
better it's going to be for the sustainability
556
00:30:13,934 --> 00:30:14,974
of the actual planet.
557
00:30:14,974 --> 00:30:16,355
So there there is that.
558
00:30:18,974 --> 00:30:20,115
But I yeah.
559
00:30:21,294 --> 00:30:29,460
I so let's talk about, I wanna go back to, you
know, I'm very in the con navigating conflict
560
00:30:29,460 --> 00:30:30,200
in the workplace.
561
00:30:30,419 --> 00:30:39,724
And so, how do we with the newer generations
coming in and the shift in leadership and how
562
00:30:39,724 --> 00:30:47,164
we need to lead, just speak to that a little
bit because I know it's it's just a very I
563
00:30:47,164 --> 00:30:49,024
mean, I'm at I'm at a loss.
564
00:30:49,325 --> 00:30:55,119
I'm at a loss with with the fact that my
understanding is that we need, in in the
565
00:30:55,119 --> 00:30:59,700
current circumstances, decreased resilience,
increased sensitivity.
566
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:06,815
We need a much more robust ability to
communicate between people.
567
00:31:07,275 --> 00:31:07,775
Right?
568
00:31:07,914 --> 00:31:09,294
Interpersonal communication.
569
00:31:09,674 --> 00:31:14,554
And then I was just talking to somebody who was
saying, well, yeah, the kids these days,
570
00:31:14,554 --> 00:31:20,589
because they've been on social media, their
brains are wired up to not be able to have that
571
00:31:20,589 --> 00:31:24,690
that communication the way that other older
brains do.
572
00:31:24,990 --> 00:31:28,509
And so I'm gonna read that book and find out
what the hell he's talking about, but because
573
00:31:28,509 --> 00:31:29,250
that's terrifying.
574
00:31:30,589 --> 00:31:31,089
But
575
00:31:31,789 --> 00:31:32,429
where do we go?
576
00:31:32,429 --> 00:31:33,409
What do we do?
577
00:31:35,765 --> 00:31:38,345
I'd love to pretend that I knew the answer to
that question.
578
00:31:39,125 --> 00:31:39,684
I mean,
579
00:31:39,684 --> 00:31:43,605
that's that's Maybe by the end of this, when I
we are a couple of years from here after
580
00:31:43,605 --> 00:31:46,424
interviewing a 100 people, I'll come up with
with something.
581
00:31:47,845 --> 00:31:52,720
Well, I mean, to to part, you know, part of
it's maybe to realize that generational
582
00:31:53,340 --> 00:31:54,960
difference is not new.
583
00:31:55,740 --> 00:31:55,980
Mhmm.
584
00:31:55,980 --> 00:32:00,299
So when I came into the workforce, I was still
dealing with you know, as as senior leadership,
585
00:32:00,299 --> 00:32:02,400
I was still dealing with that veteran
generation.
586
00:32:02,940 --> 00:32:06,755
And their whole idea was very much hierarchical
command and control.
587
00:32:07,535 --> 00:32:07,695
Right.
588
00:32:07,695 --> 00:32:07,775
Right.
589
00:32:07,775 --> 00:32:12,515
They had never adjusted to the fact that they
were hiring people who were, quote unquote,
590
00:32:12,575 --> 00:32:13,714
smarter than they are.
591
00:32:13,855 --> 00:32:17,795
And, you know, it's not that we are necessarily
smarter since we have particular expertise,
592
00:32:17,855 --> 00:32:20,755
that they they could never wrap their heads
around that.
593
00:32:21,369 --> 00:32:24,089
And so it's not just that.
594
00:32:24,089 --> 00:32:28,329
But, you know, obviously, as you said, it's
right now, younger generations, we have more
595
00:32:28,329 --> 00:32:28,829
sensitivity.
596
00:32:29,369 --> 00:32:35,154
You know, many people would say given the the
current what's going on in the academic
597
00:32:35,214 --> 00:32:39,615
institutions by way of indoctrination into woke
ideology and all of this, we're actually
598
00:32:39,615 --> 00:32:39,775
training people.
599
00:32:39,855 --> 00:32:40,355
Ideology.
600
00:32:40,414 --> 00:32:41,315
I love that.
601
00:32:41,694 --> 00:32:43,394
We're training people to be hypersensitive.
602
00:32:43,694 --> 00:32:45,714
We're training people to be easily offended.
603
00:32:46,015 --> 00:32:46,335
Yeah.
604
00:32:46,654 --> 00:32:48,275
And that's not helping them.
605
00:32:48,559 --> 00:32:53,119
That there there's no way they're gonna be able
to navigate the working world unless they get
606
00:32:53,119 --> 00:32:54,099
rid of that mindset.
607
00:32:54,559 --> 00:32:57,539
And you can't pander to it because it's not
doing them a favor.
608
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:04,494
So, you know, it's it's realizing that, yeah,
you know, people saying things that you don't
609
00:33:04,494 --> 00:33:07,154
agree with isn't automatically a cause for
offense.
610
00:33:08,015 --> 00:33:08,975
It really is okay.
611
00:33:08,975 --> 00:33:10,815
People don't have to agree on everything.
612
00:33:10,815 --> 00:33:14,494
I mean, I look back at maybe what I thought 2
years ago.
613
00:33:14,494 --> 00:33:15,375
I don't agree with me.
614
00:33:15,375 --> 00:33:16,835
Why would I agree with you?
615
00:33:16,975 --> 00:33:18,195
And so Right.
616
00:33:18,630 --> 00:33:22,329
You know, people change and and people only
speak from their own experience.
617
00:33:22,789 --> 00:33:28,009
So it's you know, having different opinions is
not automatically a bad thing.
618
00:33:29,269 --> 00:33:32,869
But as you say, we have to be able to
communicate, and you're talking about, you
619
00:33:32,869 --> 00:33:36,414
know, that this person mentioned social social
media and brains being wired differently.
620
00:33:36,414 --> 00:33:37,375
It is I'm not sure.
621
00:33:37,375 --> 00:33:42,015
Did you mean just maybe short attention span,
or is it that the only way to communicate is to
622
00:33:42,015 --> 00:33:42,994
send them a text?
623
00:33:43,855 --> 00:33:44,755
I think so.
624
00:33:45,934 --> 00:33:46,575
I don't know.
625
00:33:46,575 --> 00:33:47,794
I'm gonna read the book.
626
00:33:48,414 --> 00:33:55,750
But, I I like you triggered something when you
were saying about being offended by this and
627
00:33:55,750 --> 00:33:56,250
that.
628
00:33:57,349 --> 00:34:03,644
I've experienced the generation that I'm in
kind of in the middle of of of the 2 is people
629
00:34:03,644 --> 00:34:06,785
saying you should be offended by I'm not
actually offended by it.
630
00:34:07,005 --> 00:34:10,545
But there's this expectation, like, well, you
should be offended by that.
631
00:34:11,644 --> 00:34:14,285
But not and I'm like, is there something wrong
with me?
632
00:34:14,285 --> 00:34:15,565
Have I programmed it up?
633
00:34:15,565 --> 00:34:16,765
And and I think it is.
634
00:34:16,765 --> 00:34:23,359
It's a shift of of of trying to be to
understand that that would be offensive to some
635
00:34:23,359 --> 00:34:26,159
people, but then it's also not offensive.
636
00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:31,460
And I need to understand why it would be
offensive to that person and not be dismissive
637
00:34:31,599 --> 00:34:33,539
of why they feel offended by it.
638
00:34:36,764 --> 00:34:37,085
Yeah.
639
00:34:37,085 --> 00:34:42,125
And yet again, you know, there's well, the
question is what's what's what should be
640
00:34:42,125 --> 00:34:43,905
offensive and what's not then?
641
00:34:44,764 --> 00:34:47,885
Just an alternate opinion should not
necessarily be offensive.
642
00:34:47,885 --> 00:34:50,109
And that's that's the thing.
643
00:34:50,109 --> 00:34:55,630
So people have to get kind of, you know, work
around that because to be think about it.
644
00:34:55,630 --> 00:35:00,929
To be offended so many times a day, think of
the wasted energy that goes into that.
645
00:35:01,389 --> 00:35:05,474
Think of how you're just exhausting yourself,
let alone the people around you who have to
646
00:35:05,474 --> 00:35:06,694
listen to you being offended.
647
00:35:07,234 --> 00:35:09,414
So, I mean, it's it's really unproductive.
648
00:35:12,594 --> 00:35:18,054
So the idea that, you know, we have to be super
we will have to walk on eggshells around
649
00:35:18,114 --> 00:35:23,170
everybody is ridiculous because, ultimately, a
democracy can't function that way.
650
00:35:23,869 --> 00:35:24,109
Okay.
651
00:35:24,109 --> 00:35:30,210
So I've got one one last big question for you,
and you may or may not have the answer.
652
00:35:30,670 --> 00:35:32,204
But you, you'll have thoughts.
653
00:35:32,204 --> 00:35:37,505
So I would love to know your thoughts on how
leaders can create the environment for people
654
00:35:38,525 --> 00:35:43,405
to feel safe who say those things.
655
00:35:43,405 --> 00:35:44,364
That offended me.
656
00:35:44,364 --> 00:35:45,905
That actually didn't offend me.
657
00:35:46,204 --> 00:35:50,890
You just to be able to have that the
psychological safety.
658
00:35:50,890 --> 00:35:57,289
What can leaders do on a day to day basis to
make sure that they are not creating a walk on
659
00:35:57,289 --> 00:35:58,829
walk on eggshells environment?
660
00:36:02,224 --> 00:36:02,465
Yeah.
661
00:36:02,465 --> 00:36:06,465
Well, part of it, you know, certainly with
whatever whoever you're responsible, whoever
662
00:36:06,465 --> 00:36:11,905
your team is, right, you at least get to know
these people and and develop if you develop a
663
00:36:11,905 --> 00:36:16,969
personal relationship with people where they
feel safe to talk to you, where they they know
664
00:36:16,969 --> 00:36:20,889
that even though, okay, you're the boss, but
you're still you know, you're approachable as a
665
00:36:20,889 --> 00:36:21,710
human being.
666
00:36:23,210 --> 00:36:26,730
And part of the way you do that is by making
them realize you depend on them.
667
00:36:26,730 --> 00:36:30,569
You sure you're not constantly overriding what
they're telling you, but you're actually
668
00:36:30,569 --> 00:36:31,069
listening.
669
00:36:31,445 --> 00:36:33,925
And, again, it goes back to, as you mentioned,
empathy.
670
00:36:33,925 --> 00:36:41,445
You have to be able to listen and develop those
communication skills, whether it's things as
671
00:36:41,445 --> 00:36:43,284
simple as reflective listening.
672
00:36:43,284 --> 00:36:43,684
Like, okay.
673
00:36:43,684 --> 00:36:45,224
Here's what I hear you saying.
674
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:46,880
Am I am I right?
675
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:48,180
Did I interpret that right?
676
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:53,460
So being being sure that you're developing real
communication with people and not not filtering
677
00:36:53,519 --> 00:36:55,380
things too much through your own lenses.
678
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:56,739
Mhmm.
679
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,054
But to to take the time to communicate with
people, you know, this is one of the things
680
00:37:01,054 --> 00:37:07,715
that often happens when people get in,
positions of authority in a team of whatever
681
00:37:07,934 --> 00:37:12,014
size, whatever level, is they be they isolate
themselves.
682
00:37:12,014 --> 00:37:13,875
They don't bother going to talk to people.
683
00:37:15,469 --> 00:37:20,909
They they just look at whatever they get sent
through email or attachments or whatever.
684
00:37:20,909 --> 00:37:21,230
Okay.
685
00:37:21,230 --> 00:37:25,070
Here's your latest just submit submit your work
to me when you're done.
686
00:37:25,070 --> 00:37:27,570
That's the the level of communication you're
getting.
687
00:37:28,030 --> 00:37:29,570
Well, that's not real communication.
688
00:37:30,885 --> 00:37:35,445
It's also too feeling you know, realizing that
that what makes human beings in it you feel
689
00:37:35,445 --> 00:37:35,945
good?
690
00:37:37,045 --> 00:37:38,644
The answer is fairly simple.
691
00:37:38,644 --> 00:37:39,765
We are creative beings.
692
00:37:39,765 --> 00:37:41,684
We need to feel we are creating.
693
00:37:41,684 --> 00:37:42,985
We need to be creative.
694
00:37:43,590 --> 00:37:46,489
We need to have that freedom to be creative.
695
00:37:46,550 --> 00:37:52,630
And, you know, part of being creative is one of
the greatest expressions of being creative is
696
00:37:52,630 --> 00:37:53,510
problem solving.
697
00:37:53,510 --> 00:37:56,410
People love to problem solve because it's a
creative process.
698
00:37:57,614 --> 00:38:04,094
And if you can provide venues where people can
problem solve both on their own but also as
699
00:38:04,094 --> 00:38:06,514
groups, they love that.
700
00:38:06,815 --> 00:38:08,655
I mean, heck, that's what you hire them for.
701
00:38:08,655 --> 00:38:12,755
That's if it's in their area of expertise, it's
what they're good at, it's what they live for.
702
00:38:13,559 --> 00:38:14,059
Yeah.
703
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:21,800
And I think a key piece to what you're saying,
and this is what is newer to the workforce, is
704
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:26,375
when you said facilitate them to deliver what
you need.
705
00:38:26,594 --> 00:38:29,894
And part of that is minimizing the stress on
them.
706
00:38:30,114 --> 00:38:33,735
So that's the piece that is needs to be taken
into account.
707
00:38:33,954 --> 00:38:39,119
The conversations about what do you need from
me to do what you need to do.
708
00:38:39,119 --> 00:38:43,780
And if that is pick your kid up from school at
3 o'clock every day, I will facilitate that.
709
00:38:44,159 --> 00:38:50,659
And and I think that that is what's required
required now by the younger generations.
710
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,139
You need to see me as a human being.
711
00:38:53,434 --> 00:38:59,594
And it wasn't it wasn't so much required 20, 30
years ago where you had a 2, you know, 2
712
00:38:59,594 --> 00:39:02,875
parents in the family, and there was someone at
home taking care of everything.
713
00:39:02,875 --> 00:39:07,275
And you could get to work at 8 AM and stay till
6 PM, and things were taken care of, and you'd
714
00:39:07,275 --> 00:39:08,815
go home to your intact family.
715
00:39:09,300 --> 00:39:09,800
Right?
716
00:39:09,860 --> 00:39:12,280
And now it's just there's different way.
717
00:39:12,579 --> 00:39:12,820
Yeah.
718
00:39:12,820 --> 00:39:13,800
It's not that way anymore.
719
00:39:14,900 --> 00:39:15,780
Not at all.
720
00:39:15,780 --> 00:39:20,599
And it you know, one one of the things you said
made me think of an incident where, I was at a
721
00:39:20,660 --> 00:39:27,405
conference, this is about 20 years ago now,
where there were a number of people from both
722
00:39:27,704 --> 00:39:32,505
public and private sector in a room, and they
were talking about, I guess, about hiring.
723
00:39:32,505 --> 00:39:37,704
And one of them said, you know, our problem
today this was somebody from the the government
724
00:39:37,704 --> 00:39:43,539
public sec public sector saying, our problem
today is we're not hiring the best people.
725
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:48,980
And immediately, somebody else, again, from the
public sector sector said, I totally disagree.
726
00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:52,160
Our problem's not that we're not hiring the
best people.
727
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:52,900
We are.
728
00:39:53,534 --> 00:39:57,775
Problem is when we hire them, we bring them in,
and we put them in a little box, and we tell
729
00:39:57,775 --> 00:40:00,914
them, here's not only what you're gonna do, but
how you're gonna do it.
730
00:40:01,614 --> 00:40:10,030
So we provide them absolutely no no no
creativity no space for creative thought, no
731
00:40:10,030 --> 00:40:11,869
space for innovation, no space for anything.
732
00:40:11,869 --> 00:40:17,150
Just do it it's the equivalent of it's it's
digital, bolt tightening or, you know, widget
733
00:40:17,150 --> 00:40:17,650
tightening.
734
00:40:18,190 --> 00:40:18,614
Mhmm.
735
00:40:18,775 --> 00:40:22,855
Basically, it's it's that industrial age
culture applied to the knowledge worker, and
736
00:40:22,855 --> 00:40:25,434
this hasn't totally subsided yet.
737
00:40:28,614 --> 00:40:31,514
So, yeah, communication, though, huge.
738
00:40:35,190 --> 00:40:36,949
And it's it's it's an issue.
739
00:40:36,949 --> 00:40:37,190
Right?
740
00:40:37,190 --> 00:40:43,130
Because how well a person communicates is a
very individual thing.
741
00:40:45,190 --> 00:40:49,289
And I know this sounds so last century.
742
00:40:50,054 --> 00:40:55,175
However and I don't know if they'll be able to
get an AI bot to be able to do it at some
743
00:40:55,175 --> 00:40:55,675
point.
744
00:40:56,135 --> 00:41:03,539
But that the ability of being a neutral third
party in a conversation just it it for me, I I
745
00:41:03,539 --> 00:41:09,699
I sit in that role a lot, and it's just so
interesting to be able to see how it's breaking
746
00:41:09,699 --> 00:41:16,039
down and how as the tool of that neutral third
party to say, did you hear them say this?
747
00:41:16,179 --> 00:41:16,420
No.
748
00:41:16,420 --> 00:41:17,539
They didn't I didn't hear that.
749
00:41:17,539 --> 00:41:18,420
I heard this.
750
00:41:18,420 --> 00:41:20,224
Oh, and the other person, well, that wasn't
what I was trying to say.
751
00:41:20,224 --> 00:41:21,445
I was trying to say this.
752
00:41:21,585 --> 00:41:28,565
And so to try to get them on the same page to
and, there's those ahhs that happen.
753
00:41:28,864 --> 00:41:34,940
And I feel like it's like there needs to be
that that that that, I don't know, that human
754
00:41:34,940 --> 00:41:36,059
in there saying, no.
755
00:41:36,059 --> 00:41:36,880
You've misunderstood.
756
00:41:37,099 --> 00:41:38,800
Let me transfer you.
757
00:41:39,819 --> 00:41:44,619
So you you've been in this unique situation
where you're hearing 2 people talk totally past
758
00:41:44,619 --> 00:41:45,359
each other.
759
00:41:45,420 --> 00:41:45,920
Yes.
760
00:41:46,219 --> 00:41:47,839
It's fascinating to watch.
761
00:41:48,215 --> 00:41:48,375
Yes.
762
00:41:48,375 --> 00:41:52,155
And then it's fascinating to actually bring
them onto the same page.
763
00:41:52,534 --> 00:41:57,815
Like, to start off and they just are so they
feel like they're on such different places that
764
00:41:57,815 --> 00:41:59,434
they'll never agree on anything.
765
00:41:59,815 --> 00:42:05,469
And then as they start to understand each
other, they're it just, it's such a relief.
766
00:42:06,010 --> 00:42:08,429
Do you think that could be applied to the
political situation?
767
00:42:08,969 --> 00:42:09,710
Just asking.
768
00:42:11,130 --> 00:42:11,289
You
769
00:42:11,289 --> 00:42:12,089
know, but it's true.
770
00:42:12,089 --> 00:42:12,409
Right?
771
00:42:12,409 --> 00:42:18,045
It's it's people are but that is that is
perhaps part of the cultural problem too.
772
00:42:18,045 --> 00:42:18,284
Right?
773
00:42:18,284 --> 00:42:22,945
That we we are in a a time and place of extreme
polarization in society.
774
00:42:23,005 --> 00:42:23,505
Yes.
775
00:42:23,965 --> 00:42:29,244
And so the tendency with polarization is you
you you pick a tribe, your tribe, and you
776
00:42:29,244 --> 00:42:31,425
demonize everybody else Mhmm.
777
00:42:31,710 --> 00:42:33,949
Without actually asking, okay.
778
00:42:33,949 --> 00:42:35,170
What are your real concerns?
779
00:42:35,789 --> 00:42:38,690
And that's, of course, totally unproductive.
780
00:42:39,789 --> 00:42:44,590
It doesn't help in any sort of group
environment, whether it's the the country as a
781
00:42:44,590 --> 00:42:46,289
whole or whether it's just an organization.
782
00:42:47,154 --> 00:42:51,974
Because it chasm between each part person or
party just gets bigger and bigger and bigger,
783
00:42:52,194 --> 00:42:55,315
and it's just makes it impossible to come back
to the norm.
784
00:42:55,315 --> 00:42:56,514
Well, with that Yeah.
785
00:42:56,755 --> 00:42:59,734
Unless you have any last final words of wisdom?
786
00:43:01,599 --> 00:43:05,519
Well, I'm not sure I've had much wisdom, but I
don't have any I can't think of any final
787
00:43:05,519 --> 00:43:05,840
words.
788
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:07,859
So I it's been a pleasure.
789
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:09,599
It's been such a pleasure.
790
00:43:09,599 --> 00:43:16,565
I really, really appreciate you, speaking with
me today, and, I look forward to possibly
791
00:43:16,565 --> 00:43:17,925
connecting again in the future.
792
00:43:17,925 --> 00:43:20,984
We can, like, update each other on on our
progress.
793
00:43:21,844 --> 00:43:22,964
And do you have a book?
794
00:43:22,964 --> 00:43:23,605
Hang on a minute.
795
00:43:23,605 --> 00:43:24,244
You have a book.
796
00:43:24,244 --> 00:43:24,744
Right?
797
00:43:26,724 --> 00:43:26,964
Yeah.
798
00:43:26,964 --> 00:43:32,099
I can I can, what I'll do is I'll send I'll
send you I'll send you a link, and people can,
799
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,940
go there and grab a for free the the digital
copy?
800
00:43:36,253 --> 00:43:37,793
And and what is the name of the book?
801
00:43:38,333 --> 00:43:39,472
Resilience Culture.
802
00:43:40,092 --> 00:43:41,072
Resilience Culture.
803
00:43:41,373 --> 00:43:42,012
There we go.
804
00:43:42,012 --> 00:43:43,313
We all need this book.
805
00:43:43,373 --> 00:43:43,773
Okay.
806
00:43:43,773 --> 00:43:44,913
Thank you so much.