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Welcome to Reinventing Professionals, a podcast hosted by industry analyst Ari Kaplan,
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which shares ideas, guidance and perspectives from market leaders shaping the next generation
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00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:16,600
of legal and professional services.
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This is Ari Kaplan and I'm speaking today with Lynn Tubilino, the Director of Litigation
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Support at Daikama and Julia Voss, the Director of Litigation Support and E-Discovery at UB
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Greensfelder, both are among the industry leaders who contributed to the recently published
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report Advancing Litigation Support to Fuel Growth in a Changing Legal Market, supported
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by Opus 2.
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Lynn Julia, great to see you.
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Great to see you.
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Great to see you too, Ari.
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Lynn, tell us about your background and your role at Daikama.
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I started off as a paralegal and then just fell into litigation support.
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I was a very eager paralegal, but I had the technical background and prowess to get into
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the industry and kind of clawed away into it, had multiple jobs over the last few years
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and started on the leadership side when I was at Tubby Austin for about eight years, about
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three and a half years ago.
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This opportunity at Daikama came up and I couldn't say no.
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Julia, tell us about your background and your role at UB Greensfelder.
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I am an antitrust litigator turned e-discovery professional.
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Twenty years ago, I had one of the bigger cases in the firm right around when all the rules
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for civil procedure were changing, so I was tasked with figuring it out.
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Once I figured it out, I had to start teaching everybody else in giving presentations.
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So in 2014, when the firm decided that a lawyer should lead litigation support, they asked
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me to move into that role.
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Once I have been the director of litigation support and e-discovery for eleven years.
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Lynn, did anything in our research report surprise you?
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What is really surprising to me and it's not necessarily related to the content overall,
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we're all going through the same issues and figuring this out as we go.
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In these roles, you tend to feel like you're on an island and don't see what everybody else
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is going through until you start talking to people and that was really interesting because
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of the fast-paced industry that we are in.
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We don't always got to talk to one another and connect, but through these reports, I was
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like, "Okay, I'm not on an island.
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People are going through the same thing that I am going through and I need to figure
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out who I can talk to and what other people are doing and what makes the most sense for
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all of us as an industry."
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Julia, one theme was the increasing volume and variety of data.
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What impact do you expect this trend to have?
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Volume is just going to drive more litigators to realize that they have to have some technical
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solution where they used to maybe have a small case with a few hundred documents, they could
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just manage it.
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They can't do that anymore with the volume.
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Volume is going to spark a realization that you have to be in some technological solution.
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The variety in data is the thing that is the most impactful right now.
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There's so many different sources of data available.
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Every new day, it seems like here's a new app or there's an update to the phone or Microsoft
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so every Tuesday is updating.
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It's constant chasing the updates and new apps and new ways to get data that there was a long
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time where we felt like we knew how to do e-discovery because we knew how to get emails.
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We finally had figured that out and everybody got comfortable.
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Then teams came along and then slept and then WhatsApp.
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And now it just feels like a never ending cycle of chasing the newest app.
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Lynn, what advice would you offer to others who are managing these changes?
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First and foremost, don't get overwhelmed.
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We're all going through at the same time.
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Figure out what works best for your team.
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One of the things that I've adopted recently is meeting with the team and talking through
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issues of processing, the specific data types and reaching out to those that have better
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answers and bringing in solutions and providing options to our case teams because sometimes
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it's not an LBL solution.
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So there's going to be times that it might not be relevant to their case strategy to include
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a modern attachment.
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One of the things that internally we've focused on is really trying to get to the heart of
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what the case teams are trying to do versus saying what we can do from a technical perspective
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and really understanding what their needs are and what their strategy is at the end of
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the day because they are internal clients and they have to speak to our external clients.
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It can really be easy to get overwhelmed.
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There's a lot of different data types out there and you're not going to be the expert
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on everything but rely on those people who are the experts and get information from them.
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Julia outdated technology, specifically case management was another theme in the research.
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How do you know when it's time to explore new solution and if you've upgraded recently,
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what are your tips for others as they select new applications?
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You start to realize it might be time to look at a new solution when people aren't using
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the one you have or there is technology out there that can help but we just don't have
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it yet.
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It's really just listening to the people around you and trying to see what their needs are
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once you've identified a need, figure out who has the time to investigate that need and
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who is willing to test it out.
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The hardest part is finding people with time to test these things out and figure out which
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is the best way to move forward especially with all the tech that we have changing all at
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once because of AI.
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With everything changing at once, you have to have a group of people who understand what
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the technology you have already is doing and what could a new product bring to the table.
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Linda's outdated technology contribute to a lack of adoption.
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It's balancing.
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The outdated technology against the cost of moving to a solution that is newer, faster,
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better and getting teams to buy into that.
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I always get that how much this is going to cost me conversation with the attorneys
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and we as technologists are really open to that but then the reality is how much it's going
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to cost to replace an outdated tool.
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There's a lot of different things that go into kind of those decisions.
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Julia, what strategies have been successful in encouraging adoption in your firm?
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Presenting the attorneys with the final product instead of just starting with, hey, look at
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what this can do and you have to do this input and this input and this input.
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They've lost interest by the time they realize how amazing the final product could
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be.
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Getting a small team together who works with it and figures it out and can present the
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result first has been the best way to drive adoption because once they see what the end
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product is and can appreciate that, then they're willing to say, all right, I understand
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there might be a little bit of work in getting it here.
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What do I have to do?
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Linda Jenner to the AI has been and will continue to be a hot topic.
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How are you using AI in the firm and what have you learned from your experiences so far?
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There's different components of AI, not just generative AI.
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We've been utilizing that in our workflows for years.
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We actually just signed for generative AI for a review platform so we're really excited
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for that.
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I'm trying to identify my champions.
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The people that will use it and give me honest feedback.
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We really have to show them the end part of it versus the nuts and bolts, but I have to identify
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those people who work through the trenches on those.
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I think they experience overall, at least from the feedback I've been getting from people
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in the industry.
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Everybody's waiting and seeing what other people are doing and working in that same boat,
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but we don't want to be behind the curve.
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Nobody wants to be behind the curve, but we still want to adopt it.
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But we're cautiously treading into the arena.
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The Julie's, how are you using AI, but also curious about what resources, training, skills
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that you're hoping to develop with respect to Gen AI and others as investments for 2025?
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We have been using different kinds of AI for a long time, but generative AI is the obvious
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new shiny toy in document review platforms.
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We have been testing it from a few months and we're starting to test it out and see how it
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does and slowly grow adoption through being able to show how it worked.
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For resources and training, we really just have to be able to put aside the time to get
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our people up to date on how to use these products so that we can support the lawyers.
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And I think some of that's investment in people so that the great people we already have
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can continue to help the legal teams move forward.
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Lynn, what is your team doing in 2025 to maintain its competitive edge?
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Making sure that the talent that we have currently is able to utilize the tool and be our champions
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education overall.
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And I spend a lot of 2024 marketing my team.
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People don't fully understand what we do, but I understand if I'm very high level, my
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team is just trying to get them work done, but they may not necessarily know how to market
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the team.
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So that's something I've been working on internally.
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Sometimes that phone call might be helpful just to walk through some of the questions they
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might not have thought about when sending you an email.
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It's a little bit back to basics, but I think it's helpful to market what we have and what
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we could bring, what feedback you would get in those conversations.
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It's been very helpful to me in 2024.
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So continuing that in 2025.
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What didn't surprise me at all about this report is that we're all trying to do some of
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the same things.
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We're internally rebranding our team calling ourselves the data intelligence team.
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We're showcasing to our internal people that we have a team of technologists and eDiscovery
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council who work together so that you can understand what needs to be done in your matter
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and trying to get everybody to understand that this team exists already.
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We're here and we can do more so that you can focus on the merits of your case while we
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help you get through.
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This is Ari Kaplan speaking with Lynn Tuberlino, the director of litigation support at
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YaiKaMA and Julia Foss, the director of litigation support in eDiscovery at UB Greensfelder.
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Both are among the industry leaders who contributed to the recently published report advancing
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litigation support to fuel growth in a changing legal market supported by Opus 2.
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Lynn, Julia, it's been a privilege.
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Thank you so very much.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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Thank you for listening to the reinventing professionals podcast.
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Visit reinventingprofessionals.com
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or RE-CAPLINED-Advisors.com to learn more.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,280
Welcome to Reinventing Professionals, a podcast hosted by industry analyst Ari Kaplan,
2
00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:12,680
which shares ideas, guidance and perspectives from market leaders shaping the next generation
3
00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:16,600
of legal and professional services.
4
00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:22,680
This is Ari Kaplan and I'm speaking today with Lynn Tubilino, the Director of Litigation
5
00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:29,280
Support at Daikama and Julia Voss, the Director of Litigation Support and E-Discovery at UB
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00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:34,800
Greensfelder, both are among the industry leaders who contributed to the recently published
7
00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:40,920
report Advancing Litigation Support to Fuel Growth in a Changing Legal Market, supported
8
00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:42,780
by Opus 2.
9
00:00:42,780 --> 00:00:44,720
Lynn Julia, great to see you.
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Great to see you.
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Great to see you too, Ari.
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Lynn, tell us about your background and your role at Daikama.
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I started off as a paralegal and then just fell into litigation support.
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00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:02,960
I was a very eager paralegal, but I had the technical background and prowess to get into
15
00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:09,600
the industry and kind of clawed away into it, had multiple jobs over the last few years
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00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:14,160
and started on the leadership side when I was at Tubby Austin for about eight years, about
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00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:15,160
three and a half years ago.
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This opportunity at Daikama came up and I couldn't say no.
19
00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,880
Julia, tell us about your background and your role at UB Greensfelder.
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I am an antitrust litigator turned e-discovery professional.
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Twenty years ago, I had one of the bigger cases in the firm right around when all the rules
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00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,880
for civil procedure were changing, so I was tasked with figuring it out.
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00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:40,240
Once I figured it out, I had to start teaching everybody else in giving presentations.
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00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:46,560
So in 2014, when the firm decided that a lawyer should lead litigation support, they asked
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me to move into that role.
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00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:53,160
Once I have been the director of litigation support and e-discovery for eleven years.
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00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,800
Lynn, did anything in our research report surprise you?
28
00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,880
What is really surprising to me and it's not necessarily related to the content overall,
29
00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,880
we're all going through the same issues and figuring this out as we go.
30
00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:11,720
In these roles, you tend to feel like you're on an island and don't see what everybody else
31
00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:16,040
is going through until you start talking to people and that was really interesting because
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00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,600
of the fast-paced industry that we are in.
33
00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,560
We don't always got to talk to one another and connect, but through these reports, I was
34
00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:23,880
like, "Okay, I'm not on an island.
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00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,080
People are going through the same thing that I am going through and I need to figure
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out who I can talk to and what other people are doing and what makes the most sense for
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00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:32,800
all of us as an industry."
38
00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:39,120
Julia, one theme was the increasing volume and variety of data.
39
00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,000
What impact do you expect this trend to have?
40
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,880
Volume is just going to drive more litigators to realize that they have to have some technical
41
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:51,560
solution where they used to maybe have a small case with a few hundred documents, they could
42
00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:52,720
just manage it.
43
00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:54,680
They can't do that anymore with the volume.
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00:02:54,680 --> 00:03:01,880
Volume is going to spark a realization that you have to be in some technological solution.
45
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The variety in data is the thing that is the most impactful right now.
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There's so many different sources of data available.
47
00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:15,000
Every new day, it seems like here's a new app or there's an update to the phone or Microsoft
48
00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:16,680
so every Tuesday is updating.
49
00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:22,560
It's constant chasing the updates and new apps and new ways to get data that there was a long
50
00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,760
time where we felt like we knew how to do e-discovery because we knew how to get emails.
51
00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,760
We finally had figured that out and everybody got comfortable.
52
00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,800
Then teams came along and then slept and then WhatsApp.
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00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,640
And now it just feels like a never ending cycle of chasing the newest app.
54
00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:43,240
Lynn, what advice would you offer to others who are managing these changes?
55
00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,760
First and foremost, don't get overwhelmed.
56
00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,440
We're all going through at the same time.
57
00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,640
Figure out what works best for your team.
58
00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,880
One of the things that I've adopted recently is meeting with the team and talking through
59
00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:59,000
issues of processing, the specific data types and reaching out to those that have better
60
00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,360
answers and bringing in solutions and providing options to our case teams because sometimes
61
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,040
it's not an LBL solution.
62
00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:10,040
So there's going to be times that it might not be relevant to their case strategy to include
63
00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:11,440
a modern attachment.
64
00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,440
One of the things that internally we've focused on is really trying to get to the heart of
65
00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:19,600
what the case teams are trying to do versus saying what we can do from a technical perspective
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and really understanding what their needs are and what their strategy is at the end of
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the day because they are internal clients and they have to speak to our external clients.
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It can really be easy to get overwhelmed.
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There's a lot of different data types out there and you're not going to be the expert
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on everything but rely on those people who are the experts and get information from them.
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Julia outdated technology, specifically case management was another theme in the research.
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How do you know when it's time to explore new solution and if you've upgraded recently,
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what are your tips for others as they select new applications?
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You start to realize it might be time to look at a new solution when people aren't using
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the one you have or there is technology out there that can help but we just don't have
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it yet.
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It's really just listening to the people around you and trying to see what their needs are
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once you've identified a need, figure out who has the time to investigate that need and
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who is willing to test it out.
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The hardest part is finding people with time to test these things out and figure out which
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is the best way to move forward especially with all the tech that we have changing all at
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once because of AI.
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With everything changing at once, you have to have a group of people who understand what
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the technology you have already is doing and what could a new product bring to the table.
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Linda's outdated technology contribute to a lack of adoption.
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It's balancing.
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The outdated technology against the cost of moving to a solution that is newer, faster,
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better and getting teams to buy into that.
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I always get that how much this is going to cost me conversation with the attorneys
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and we as technologists are really open to that but then the reality is how much it's going
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to cost to replace an outdated tool.
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There's a lot of different things that go into kind of those decisions.
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Julia, what strategies have been successful in encouraging adoption in your firm?
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Presenting the attorneys with the final product instead of just starting with, hey, look at
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what this can do and you have to do this input and this input and this input.
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They've lost interest by the time they realize how amazing the final product could
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be.
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Getting a small team together who works with it and figures it out and can present the
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result first has been the best way to drive adoption because once they see what the end
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product is and can appreciate that, then they're willing to say, all right, I understand
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there might be a little bit of work in getting it here.
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What do I have to do?
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Linda Jenner to the AI has been and will continue to be a hot topic.
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How are you using AI in the firm and what have you learned from your experiences so far?
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There's different components of AI, not just generative AI.
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We've been utilizing that in our workflows for years.
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We actually just signed for generative AI for a review platform so we're really excited
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for that.
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I'm trying to identify my champions.
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The people that will use it and give me honest feedback.
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We really have to show them the end part of it versus the nuts and bolts, but I have to identify
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those people who work through the trenches on those.
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I think they experience overall, at least from the feedback I've been getting from people
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in the industry.
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Everybody's waiting and seeing what other people are doing and working in that same boat,
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but we don't want to be behind the curve.
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Nobody wants to be behind the curve, but we still want to adopt it.
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But we're cautiously treading into the arena.
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The Julie's, how are you using AI, but also curious about what resources, training, skills
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that you're hoping to develop with respect to Gen AI and others as investments for 2025?
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We have been using different kinds of AI for a long time, but generative AI is the obvious
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new shiny toy in document review platforms.
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We have been testing it from a few months and we're starting to test it out and see how it
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does and slowly grow adoption through being able to show how it worked.
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For resources and training, we really just have to be able to put aside the time to get
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our people up to date on how to use these products so that we can support the lawyers.
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And I think some of that's investment in people so that the great people we already have
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can continue to help the legal teams move forward.
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Lynn, what is your team doing in 2025 to maintain its competitive edge?
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Making sure that the talent that we have currently is able to utilize the tool and be our champions
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education overall.
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And I spend a lot of 2024 marketing my team.
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People don't fully understand what we do, but I understand if I'm very high level, my
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team is just trying to get them work done, but they may not necessarily know how to market
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the team.
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So that's something I've been working on internally.
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Sometimes that phone call might be helpful just to walk through some of the questions they
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might not have thought about when sending you an email.
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It's a little bit back to basics, but I think it's helpful to market what we have and what
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we could bring, what feedback you would get in those conversations.
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It's been very helpful to me in 2024.
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So continuing that in 2025.
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What didn't surprise me at all about this report is that we're all trying to do some of
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the same things.
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We're internally rebranding our team calling ourselves the data intelligence team.
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We're showcasing to our internal people that we have a team of technologists and eDiscovery
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council who work together so that you can understand what needs to be done in your matter
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and trying to get everybody to understand that this team exists already.
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We're here and we can do more so that you can focus on the merits of your case while we
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help you get through.
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This is Ari Kaplan speaking with Lynn Tuberlino, the director of litigation support at
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YaiKaMA and Julia Foss, the director of litigation support in eDiscovery at UB Greensfelder.
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Both are among the industry leaders who contributed to the recently published report advancing
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litigation support to fuel growth in a changing legal market supported by Opus 2.
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Lynn, Julia, it's been a privilege.
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Thank you so very much.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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Thank you for listening to the reinventing professionals podcast.
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Visit reinventingprofessionals.com
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or RE-CAPLINED-Advisors.com to learn more.
