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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Reform and be in project podcasts and bracing the beauty and brokenness in your journey with God.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy this episode!
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're continuing on this conversation, building a theology of emotion, just trying to get after an anthropology that acknowledges we've been created in the image of a triune God who's inherently relational and we were made for relationships.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We've been formed in relationship, we have a relational style now, we've been malformed, some of that style is broken.
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[SPEAKER_03]: and we're being reformed in relationship with God in his church to be fully human in alive in the ways that we were designed.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm reminded by a quote from Simeon Zall at Cambridge he says that all Christian ministry involves an emotional encounter with the God revealed in Christ.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And by a emotional encounter, I think he's meeting, emotion is simply relationality.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's relational connection.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And we remember Jesus saying that in the Gospels that there would be those who come to me on the last day and say, didn't we do all these things in your name?
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[SPEAKER_03]: And he says, I never knew you.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And Phil, we might even talk about a biblical theology of knowing and how that's different, perhaps, than cognition and simply comprehension.
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[SPEAKER_03]: How do you see that word functioning
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a word, it's a Yadah, it's a Hebrew, but even from way back, it's like experiential knowledge.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And you look at that Azzaia alludes to it, Azzaia's sick, Job says it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I've heard of you, I knew about you, but now I know you, and I am just like, whew.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so that experiential knowledge Jesus is saying we didn't have any relational experience with one another.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You did things, volition, you did some things and they were maybe even efficacious and effective and great.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But we did not have relationship.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know you really.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, and that's it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So in this episode, we'll talk about the pathway to connection and just even the fundamentals of how to do relationship with God or another person.
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[SPEAKER_03]: My dad's a medical doctor and he often has observed that no one dies of natural causes, okay?
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[SPEAKER_03]: No one dies of old age.
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[SPEAKER_03]: There's actually a cute things that give out in the body that are very precise that you could look at and say, this is what killed this person, okay?
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[SPEAKER_03]: In the same way with relationship, there are cute reasons why we're not connected.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's not like this.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't have to be or remain this huge mystery.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how to be a human being in relationship.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know the reasons why I'm not.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I think one of the gifts of 10 man and one of the gifts of y'all's ministry is you all are able with some precision coming and say, hey, here's what's not happening and where that if it were resolved could result in a lot more connection with God, self and others, and Todd, you've created a really helpful tool in 10 man around the five A's.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And I think if we can unpack those five A's, this is going to really help our audience understand the pathway to connection with God and connection with others.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So why don't we spend some time just unpacking what those five A's are?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, you know, we at Tim and we began to see early on as people wanting, wanting help, but they wanted to go right to correcting the behavior.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll tell you what I'm doing, just get me to correcting the behavior.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the church does that as well.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think what we see and what we do, and I think this is what Eden Project is all about, it's really helping men and women say, how do we have long-term gospel change, not just corrective behavior change?
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[SPEAKER_01]: For us, discipleship takes a lot of time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think a lot of people just don't want to take the time to disciple people or be with people, because they want to get them in the door and out of the door, just as fast as possible.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that the relational piece is why I think what we've seen is missing at a 10-man with the discipleship.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's a relational ministry, not a corrective ministry.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so
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[SPEAKER_01]: uh... with the work of some other guys at ten men we came up with these five days to say how do we get people to get to a place of how got created under the ramago day where's it starts starts with admission but what we've seen people go from the mission to what we would say as a liement or correction uh... and so we said what's the model we can use to move people into a really formalized discipleship place and we came up with five days and that those five days are mission acceptance
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[SPEAKER_01]: a toolman attachment and alignment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: One writer says this that every discipleship relationship is meant for one man or one woman to build a bridge to another that can bear the way to truth.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think a lot of truth is being shared with someone without the relational bridge that can bear the way to truth.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so either they get shamed into behavior change or they get rejected and they don't have lasting change.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Just go out the door.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So this the model we came up with
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's huge.
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[SPEAKER_03]: In fact, you know, Simmons also observes that a gustant said that human hearts really close down when they feel judgment.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So this idea that we maybe sometimes we think in the church that we have a mic or we have access to someone or a bridge that we don't really have.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so even though we get the content, maybe the right biblical content to the person, the heart is actually closed off because we don't know if there are people yet.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We don't know if we're loved yet.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And we've heard that phrase that people don't know how much, they don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But it's really true.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, are we connected?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Are you really for me as you bring this heavy truck load of truth over this bridge?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Can I really support that with you and receive that from you?
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[SPEAKER_03]: And I guess instead ultimately, in me case we can't.
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[SPEAKER_03]: If I still think you're judging me and not loving me, I'm like,
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[SPEAKER_03]: might be the right answer.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just not willing to receive the right answer from you.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's not, it's not transforming as much as maybe we think it is, even if it is the right answer.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, that's huge.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So they walk us through how the 5A's work.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Like, let's start with admission.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Like, what are we doing when we're willing to admit something?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think a mission is really what James says.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's confession.
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[SPEAKER_01]: A place of like I'm gonna bear my soul my sin to another human being and get it all out there true confession.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's where I get we get asked all the time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know A.A. has been around since 1939 I believe and they're like what it's the secret sauce of
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[SPEAKER_01]: it's really a place of people get to walk in and first everyone knows like my life is not working and it's not working in a really bad way and so but they bring that admission to the table and I think in the in church culture church settings is
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, we go into a room reading the room, like, can I really bring true admission?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'll bring this much, but I'm not gonna bring, I'm not gonna bring all of it in AA, in AA, rooms, like, oh, I remember walking into my first one, like, man, these people are really telling the truth about themselves, what they've done, and what's going on inside, and so, I think if we can create spaces for true confession,
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what James is getting at, and his small little letter about that.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And the opposite of that's what Denial, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: And we talk about what a bearer that is for those who are addicted or or really just for living a really disconnected relational life.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, I want to admit the truth about myself.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So that's Denial, I can't really have a whole lot with God, I can't have a whole lot with anybody else, because we're this deep, you know, on what's really happening.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's easy.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So true.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and so how does a mission move into acceptance?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think once I begin to bring my insides to your outsides and so on, it says, the two sweetest words for me were in, you know, Phil said to me to me too, it's like, oh, like, I'm not the only one.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I knew cognitively, I wasn't the only human being, the only man looking at porn.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that was obvious of the industry.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I had never heard someone say what I was doing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I heard about loss that I heard about porn, but the underpinnings of all that for me, I was like, man, nobody's telling the truth about that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And when I got into spaces of healthy men that were sharing all of it, and they say me too with outdoor ejection piece of it, and the keep coming back piece.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So the me too keep coming back.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, man, there is a safe place for me to have acceptance.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's huge.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And then how does the acceptance move into a toolman?
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[SPEAKER_03]: What is a toolman?
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's a little bit of a technical term.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Some might not be familiar with.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe to find it and help us see how it works in relation to it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think I think the key to these five is this isn't what I'm bringing to the table.
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[SPEAKER_01]: These are why I need from other people to be with me as I bring them to, yes, I need to have admission, but I need a trusted person that I can emit something to, and I need someone to accept me for what I'm bringing to the table, which will always lead to a toolment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I found this a cross-dick for a toolment online.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, man, that is so good.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And they would say a tool
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[SPEAKER_01]: We need someone to turn towards us.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We need someone to tolerate us, not tolerate our sin, but tolerate the junk I'm bringing to the table.
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[SPEAKER_01]: With that tolerance and understanding, I remember sitting with feeling, he had an understanding of what it was like to be in my shoes with what we would call sin or addiction.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like I was like man, he actually gets what I'm talking about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't get it theoretically, but he's lived that life and then a non-judgment or response.
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[SPEAKER_01]: which will lead to empathy and I think this is the essence of Jesus right Jesus had these things I mean he really did he had a awareness of sin He had a turning towards sin not away from sin.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He turned towards it And he not that he tolerated, but he that's who he came for
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[SPEAKER_01]: he came for the centers and then at that came that he had an understanding a non-judgmental non-judgmental response and a real empathy for it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's what a toolman means.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I love Dan Allen just quote in his book, Redeemey Arcade.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'll read it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He says this about a toolman.
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[SPEAKER_01]: A toolman is about bearing witness to the crimes that have been committed against another person and the marring of that person's glory as a result of it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I just, like being able to sit with Selen's story is really what a, like a two-man is.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I love it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Even as you said, the turning phase two, I mean, that's the blessing of number six, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: That Moses commands Aaron, hey, when you bless my people as the mediator between me and them, I want you to tell them that I've turned my face upon them, to be gracious to them, that I've come to see them, and to give them peace.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But that really is an attentive, gracious relational response, even again in the Old Testament where in the last episode we said sometimes we think Old Testament God is angry, but he's actually an attuning relational God who is we need starting towards us is doing so in grace and then what happens when we attune what's the next step with the testimony.
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[SPEAKER_01]: the attachment is just now I'm connected with another human being.
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[SPEAKER_01]: One of our teammates said this, it's really the the Hessid love of God.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, man, I think for me that that's the piece in my own story.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was a pastor at the time of my falling, but I never felt those other things at which man I've really never felt the connection with God or other people.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so that,
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[SPEAKER_01]: you have to tune into something to be attached to it so it's like there's old radio station like if you're one like little bit off to the right of the left when you are tuning into a radio station you can really attach to the music sure and i thought often times like people don't actually get me and because they don't get me i can't attach to them they can't attach to me and so again sitting with film
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[SPEAKER_01]: which is it's so amazing that God would bring us full circle to be on a staff together like man.
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[SPEAKER_01]: With the man that had led me all the way through this piece of it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that attachment for me is huge.
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[SPEAKER_01]: so that's what it looks like.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Again, one writer says this about attachment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He says attachment is the emotional bond that we develop with a person who will be there for you and who truly knows you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not just being there for you, but to truly know who you are.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's the attachment piece.
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[SPEAKER_03]: What's based on truth, real transparency relationship with relationship
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, okay.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So it's almost a synonym for connection.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's it's relationality.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's intimacy attachment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And then how does attachment potentially move into alignment?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right, so the last part is alignment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How do we get people back to how God created them?
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[SPEAKER_01]: We say alignment or correction.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So if my life is off this way, I need someone to bring correction to get me back to how God created me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I'd need that from another human being.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I need someone to be my side mirrors the same.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And you're just a little bit off.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that's where the correction piece comes in.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But again, the church has gone from, hey, you got a mission.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now you better go get your life right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that middle section is the long process of building relationship and vesting in relationship that we don't have time for.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But when you look at Jesus, he's like, man, he spent a lot of time with his disciples.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then he, for three years, and then he commissioned them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But he was doing these things with him throughout the journey, so.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's so you guys are talking, I was thinking of Ephesians 4, yes we got to speak the truth in love but before that it's like as each part is properly fitted together there's a unity piece and a relational piece that precedes the just speaking the truth in love or maybe even in love is this idea of.
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[SPEAKER_03]: they understand that you're doing it from a place of relationship, trust, acceptance, attunement, that's really beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we're talking about the pathway to connection.
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[SPEAKER_03]: These five days, how do they work with God?
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[SPEAKER_03]: And where do we see it in the scripture where somebody's walk in this path to connection with God directly in the scriptures?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh man, I think all over, I think the first place is a place of true admission or surrender.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like I have to admit my perilousness over my life and admit that to God.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I think the songs are a great place.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think the Gospels are a great place because our admission will lead us to our neediness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Our neediness leads us to relationship with God and other people.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, that's one of the places.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you mentioned that Psalms, I mean, it just seems like David is walking these five days over and over and over, even through a diverse series of circumstances and a diverse series of emotions, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, isn't that descriptive of what it looks like for him to pray with God?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So true.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think another place you look at Joe, you know, I think Joe's friend wanted to move him right to alignment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He made you can't do that with God.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then you see this process with Joe throughout the print.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the verse that Phil Sharon earlier.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh man, what I've always heard about you now my eyes have finally seen what I've heard about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So when that's they got he let him just kind of ran rave all the way through almost the verse chapter 40 three I believe and then God's like okay, now let me tell you who I am and bring to a correction and that's where Joe like oh my goodness like he he really does transform him through his Showing up in his life and correcting him love it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: What about you Phil?
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[SPEAKER_03]: How do you see maybe the five days or this pathway to connection show up with God?
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[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot on the table, these five words, Todd just said it so beautifully, the distance between admission and alignment, that's where the work, that's where the sausage gets made.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I'm just thinking, you mentioned, I was speaking the truth in love, like, part of speaking the truth in love is,
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[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I love the person making the admission and in that love for them, I too mid-mitting my humanness.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't mean I've been through exactly what you've been through, but it means I am a human.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I have these were feelings coming in.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I have these feelings about my life when I have the feelings you're having right now.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And like when I can admit my humanness as someone admits their sin or I'm admitting my sin they admit their humanness in it it's not it's not going yeah, I'm a sinner too, but it's like yes, I know this in the human condition and y'all both have mentioned the Psalm so beautifully I think about Psalm 32
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[SPEAKER_02]: or David, you know, he has, it's the, it's the prequel to Psalm 51, you know, the great contrition, Psalm, Confessions, Psalm.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And David is very aware and is something so beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He makes an admission on several levels.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And what admission was, I didn't say anything about this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and it it killed me that you look at my bones wasted away it means my vigor the the like the liquid in me oozed out my Davidness was leaving me and then just the acceptance of okay acceptance is an outcome of of sadness it will talk about a later podcast but like in my
17:21.607 --> 17:51.478
[SPEAKER_02]: sadness around what my life came to, what I did and all the backdrop of that, like I'm accepting that that's what happened and then the atonement with, when I began to speak out loud, my identity came back to me and when I was able to see me clearly, I could then see God clearly, beautiful, making confession, because his friend Nathan loved him, said, hey, you're the man, so to speak and then the whole attachment piece is that we don't need to miss
17:51.458 --> 18:06.979
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, these slats that Todd has put between these two things, that attunement piece, where he is going, attachment piece, where he is saying, oh, I'm attached with me, and now I can see you, and now I can get back in the game called life.
18:07.239 --> 18:20.217
[SPEAKER_02]: I can live again, and interestingly enough, the word relief means to relive, it really means resurrection, and so I have the relief of making as Todd said confession, which we
18:20.197 --> 18:21.120
[SPEAKER_02]: of these things.
18:21.240 --> 18:28.543
[SPEAKER_02]: And now I'm back in alignment with the God who made me and back in alignment and able to be with me and God and others.
18:28.944 --> 18:30.088
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, uh,
18:30.473 --> 18:35.360
[SPEAKER_02]: This whole conversation around those five A's and the hard work, that's what's so effective.
18:35.420 --> 18:51.123
[SPEAKER_02]: People say, well, why in the world would I need to go to treatment, in other words, people listening and watching this right now, maybe having those questions about themselves are a loved one, and the answer to that question is exactly what we've been talking about today, because those slats have got to be built and they're built across time.
18:51.183 --> 18:54.388
[SPEAKER_02]: And we talked earlier, Duke, the three of us were talking about.
18:54.368 --> 18:59.434
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like these Psalms, we see David turn Psalm 32 in just a few verses.
18:59.494 --> 19:01.075
[SPEAKER_02]: We see this guy turn completely around.
19:01.095 --> 19:04.239
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that may have taken weeks and weeks and weeks to do that.
19:04.339 --> 19:11.647
[SPEAKER_02]: And so these A is a make for a great little iteration, but they really do line out what Ephesians says.
19:11.827 --> 19:18.655
[SPEAKER_02]: Can I speak the truth in love and part of my love is I will speak of my humanist to you as you speak yours to me.
19:18.635 --> 19:21.681
[SPEAKER_02]: and then all the way back across the tracks we've already talked about.
19:21.701 --> 19:26.550
[SPEAKER_02]: But those are so huge and Nathan mentioned in a previous podcast that the three of us did.
19:26.570 --> 19:32.821
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, this God who says, I do sympathize with everything.
19:32.941 --> 19:38.652
[SPEAKER_02]: I've committed no sin, but man, I know the human condition and the truth of struggle.
19:38.632 --> 19:40.575
[SPEAKER_02]: And I can be with you in that.
19:40.675 --> 19:45.784
[SPEAKER_02]: So to me, the fountainhead of admission being, you know, with mission.
19:45.844 --> 19:48.348
[SPEAKER_02]: If you break that word down, I'm in mission with you.
19:48.408 --> 19:52.314
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're in the mission with me of restoration to God's self and others.
19:52.695 --> 19:53.196
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
19:53.216 --> 19:55.219
[SPEAKER_02]: Leading to that ultimate place.
19:55.299 --> 19:55.940
[SPEAKER_03]: That's helpful.
19:56.441 --> 20:00.988
[SPEAKER_03]: And it may be Jeff Schultier, one of you I've heard speak to feeling felt.
20:01.449 --> 20:01.750
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
20:01.930 --> 20:05.736
[SPEAKER_03]: Or being seen as some of the language I'm getting even when you talk about.
20:05.716 --> 20:15.761
[SPEAKER_03]: that acceptance or that attenement, the person on the other side of you, whether it's God or another, rather a sister in Christ, you have the sense that they really do know.
20:16.021 --> 20:16.262
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
20:16.643 --> 20:21.615
[SPEAKER_03]: And that they don't have a hierarchy in mind or they're looking down upon you or they're
20:21.595 --> 20:35.788
[SPEAKER_03]: or there's a pity or or even a judgment, but it's like, oh man, fellowship, grieving with, having feelings about true life, resonating to certain degree, and different in the particulars, but relatable.
20:35.928 --> 20:36.989
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm a human too.
20:37.009 --> 20:46.478
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel what you feel, I see what you see, I lived a lot of what you've lived, and even have a God in the flesh who can say that with integrity.
20:46.978 --> 20:49.240
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, like, oh, yeah, it's really hard out there.
20:49.220 --> 20:50.622
[SPEAKER_03]: like rejection hurts.
20:51.383 --> 20:55.550
[SPEAKER_03]: When you come for a people to love them and save them and they reject you, like, that's just painful.
20:55.590 --> 21:17.303
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, grieving it at, you know, the funeral of a friend, it's like, it's just really sad to lose somebody that you love in Lazarus or, yeah, but that's just as you're talking, I'm just so encouraged to know that we are felt by God, like he knows
21:17.283 --> 21:40.860
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, Dan Seagull, Kurt Thompson quotes Dan Seagull as in the, you know, the four S's of secure attachment to be seen, I mean, you said, to feel seen, oh, you see me and sued, which is to be comforted, which the back end of the word comfort means fortification, comfort, to be to be strengthened through presence.
21:40.840 --> 21:44.947
[SPEAKER_02]: And then to be safe, I mean, someone's looking out for my welfare and to be secure.
21:45.268 --> 21:46.851
[SPEAKER_02]: So I can struggle in front of you.
21:46.911 --> 21:47.792
[SPEAKER_02]: You won't reject me.
21:47.833 --> 21:48.734
[SPEAKER_02]: You want to abandon me.
21:48.774 --> 21:50.037
[SPEAKER_02]: You will humiliate me.
21:50.277 --> 21:51.299
[SPEAKER_02]: You will be with me.
21:51.619 --> 21:53.162
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a secure relationship.
21:53.222 --> 21:55.947
[SPEAKER_02]: So even that part of what you're saying.
21:56.107 --> 21:59.093
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, these four things, God says, I see you.
21:59.113 --> 22:01.116
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel you, you're safe with me.
22:01.136 --> 22:02.038
[SPEAKER_02]: You're secure with me.
22:02.018 --> 22:11.389
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's universal, like when I talk to people of all walks of life, there is not a human being when they're being honest who doesn't desperately want that.
22:11.769 --> 22:16.595
[SPEAKER_03]: Doesn't want that with God and doesn't want that with some other spiritual friends that they can really live with.
22:17.115 --> 22:19.197
[SPEAKER_03]: Doesn't want that in their marriage or with their kids.
22:19.718 --> 22:24.403
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not a, it's not a, a nice city of the few or a niche.
22:24.644 --> 22:27.547
[SPEAKER_03]: It's actually just right down the center of the fairway of humanity.
22:27.647 --> 22:28.027
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
22:28.048 --> 22:30.270
[SPEAKER_03]: We were made for that and we all want it.
22:30.250 --> 22:50.132
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're living, I feel more like this jointed joints when we're not experiencing it's not natural to live a life where we don't have that attachment It's loneliness and obviously the loneliness epidemic and we're seeing all the fallout, you guys have mentioned addiction addiction, it's a relational problem
22:50.112 --> 22:50.693
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, right.
22:50.993 --> 22:51.974
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, Chelsea has shared with me.
22:51.994 --> 22:54.458
[SPEAKER_03]: It's an imperative temp that intimacy without vulnerability.
22:54.858 --> 22:59.204
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to get something that feels like living, that's a simulation of connection.
22:59.224 --> 23:03.029
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not really connection because I'm not experiencing connection.
23:03.049 --> 23:06.353
[SPEAKER_03]: And so you said, we can't just boat race people to alignment.
23:06.373 --> 23:12.161
[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes we've got to help them connect to the real thing so they don't need the virtual thing.
23:12.181 --> 23:17.908
[SPEAKER_03]: They don't need the simulation anymore because they're getting the thing they were trying to work with God.
23:17.888 --> 23:34.419
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Phil tells our coaches all the time, you know, oversees all of our coaches that timings like the thing that we bring to the table is we're trying to answer the greatest new to the human heart, which is too full, do you matter and do you belong and we're answering that question with them, like matter and belong and that's what we're talking about.
23:34.479 --> 23:36.302
[SPEAKER_01]: Those two things.
23:36.282 --> 23:38.165
[SPEAKER_03]: No human is not asking that, that's right.
23:38.305 --> 23:40.648
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's just the core to an anthropology.
23:41.510 --> 23:44.394
[SPEAKER_03]: And the theology of emotion is the pathway.
23:44.634 --> 23:48.039
[SPEAKER_03]: What we're talking about, the five A's is the only way to walk into that attachment.
23:48.160 --> 23:50.343
[SPEAKER_03]: And take experience, the things that are at the core.
23:50.363 --> 24:00.518
[SPEAKER_02]: And so you look at what even when a little child draws a picture, they're making an offering what you do this with me.
24:00.498 --> 24:03.181
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, will you attuned to me and go, that's amazing.
24:03.201 --> 24:05.703
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was a big, big trip from my parents.
24:06.324 --> 24:06.804
[SPEAKER_02]: I know.
24:06.824 --> 24:09.347
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a nice color scheme.
24:10.748 --> 24:13.971
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, but they're doing these five A, they're doing those things.
24:14.031 --> 24:16.253
[SPEAKER_02]: Like will you be human and delight in this?
24:16.313 --> 24:17.334
[SPEAKER_02]: And then on that a lot.
24:17.354 --> 24:20.618
[SPEAKER_02]: So even what you're talking about, no human doesn't want that.
24:20.638 --> 24:28.345
[SPEAKER_02]: And even when they, and I heard Kirk Thompson say this, he said, children don't draw pictures to put them in a drawer.
24:29.033 --> 24:33.459
[SPEAKER_02]: that draw pictures to present and say, hey, you want to look at me with me?
24:33.939 --> 24:34.760
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what you just said.
24:34.780 --> 24:37.744
[SPEAKER_03]: That's put it on a refrigerator and let's like, let's be known.
24:37.924 --> 24:40.547
[SPEAKER_03]: Can we do life in relationship with one another?
24:40.728 --> 24:41.308
[SPEAKER_03]: The light in it.
24:41.529 --> 24:43.811
[SPEAKER_03]: And then, yeah, that's huge.
24:43.832 --> 24:44.412
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, thank you guys.
24:44.432 --> 24:45.353
[SPEAKER_03]: This is so helpful.
24:45.814 --> 24:48.738
[SPEAKER_03]: The five A's have been incredibly helpful for to me, Todd.
24:49.058 --> 24:50.960
[SPEAKER_03]: This has all been really clarifying.
24:51.081 --> 24:55.446
[SPEAKER_03]: So that, again, I can understand when I'm off the path, I'm not willing to admit something.
24:55.426 --> 25:22.530
[SPEAKER_03]: not willing to tell the truth about it yet to somebody okay that's why i'm stuck and don't feel connected and if i'll kind of gain the courage emotionally relationally to do so i think i can move in if i'm dealing with a satin person i'm dealing with a empathetic listener who's really for me and isn't judging me i think i could start to connect and it's it's transformed my prayer life it's transformed and one of the ways is that my prayer life looks way more like David and the songs than it previously does
25:22.510 --> 25:31.880
[SPEAKER_03]: Before it was a lot more propositional, it was a lot more praying like theology back to God, but it wasn't as relational because it didn't involve what Simmons all had said.
25:31.920 --> 25:35.324
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a emotional encounter that is at the core of who I am.
25:35.604 --> 25:37.786
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I just really thankful for you guys.
25:37.806 --> 25:41.170
[SPEAKER_03]: This is like a personal blessing to me that you guys do what you do.
25:41.851 --> 25:45.995
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's a personal blessing to you guys and listen to this podcast.
25:46.015 --> 25:47.877
[SPEAKER_03]: That if you'll walk this path,
25:47.857 --> 25:54.107
[SPEAKER_03]: I believe you're kind of live in a much deeper connection with God, self and others, and you are going to be really present with yourself.
25:54.427 --> 26:00.256
[SPEAKER_03]: You are going to live into your design, your design and that's really the mission of the project.
26:00.276 --> 26:03.581
[SPEAKER_03]: We're trying to rebuild the relational habitat that we were created for.
26:04.002 --> 26:05.344
[SPEAKER_03]: We're trying to optimize for relationship.
26:05.785 --> 26:10.692
[SPEAKER_03]: We're saying, hey, you're being called to optimize for a lot of other things.
26:10.672 --> 26:23.589
[SPEAKER_03]: perfect health or productivity, profitability, whatever, we're saying what if what if we optimize for relationship and we started to pay attention to the things that are necessary to really live fully with God with ourselves with us.
26:23.609 --> 26:36.325
[SPEAKER_03]: I thank you guys for being here, incredibly insightful, very, very helpful and I'm just thankful that all of what y'all shared sits on like decades of lived experience and wisdom and so it's just a gift to go to give that to a broader audience.
26:37.250 --> 26:39.918
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the Reformed Podcast.
26:40.439 --> 26:43.288
[SPEAKER_00]: If you like what you heard, hit that subscribe button.
26:43.529 --> 26:44.672
[SPEAKER_00]: Share it with your friends.
26:44.953 --> 26:49.988
[SPEAKER_00]: Leave us a rating and check out our other resources at theeatenproject.com.
26:50.930 --> 26:51.512
[SPEAKER_00]: Peace!
00:02.444 --> 00:18.201
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Reform and be in project podcasts and bracing the beauty and brokenness in your journey with God.
00:19.043 --> 00:20.065
[SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy this episode!
00:21.023 --> 00:35.580
[SPEAKER_03]: We're continuing on this conversation, building a theology of emotion, just trying to get after an anthropology that acknowledges we've been created in the image of a triune God who's inherently relational and we were made for relationships.
00:36.241 --> 00:42.188
[SPEAKER_03]: We've been formed in relationship, we have a relational style now, we've been malformed, some of that style is broken.
00:42.168 --> 00:48.342
[SPEAKER_03]: and we're being reformed in relationship with God in his church to be fully human in alive in the ways that we were designed.
00:48.923 --> 00:59.046
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm reminded by a quote from Simeon Zall at Cambridge he says that all Christian ministry involves an emotional encounter with the God revealed in Christ.
00:59.026 --> 01:04.354
[SPEAKER_03]: And by a emotional encounter, I think he's meeting, emotion is simply relationality.
01:04.635 --> 01:06.017
[SPEAKER_03]: It's relational connection.
01:06.758 --> 01:13.628
[SPEAKER_03]: And we remember Jesus saying that in the Gospels that there would be those who come to me on the last day and say, didn't we do all these things in your name?
01:13.668 --> 01:16.713
[SPEAKER_03]: And he says, I never knew you.
01:16.733 --> 01:24.745
[SPEAKER_03]: And Phil, we might even talk about a biblical theology of knowing and how that's different, perhaps, than cognition and simply comprehension.
01:25.486 --> 01:27.970
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you see that word functioning
01:28.085 --> 01:35.241
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a word, it's a Yadah, it's a Hebrew, but even from way back, it's like experiential knowledge.
01:35.862 --> 01:40.172
[SPEAKER_02]: And you look at that Azzaia alludes to it, Azzaia's sick, Job says it.
01:40.693 --> 01:46.566
[SPEAKER_02]: I've heard of you, I knew about you, but now I know you, and I am just like, whew.
01:46.546 --> 01:52.672
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that experiential knowledge Jesus is saying we didn't have any relational experience with one another.
01:52.692 --> 02:00.320
[SPEAKER_02]: You did things, volition, you did some things and they were maybe even efficacious and effective and great.
02:00.800 --> 02:03.583
[SPEAKER_02]: But we did not have relationship.
02:03.663 --> 02:05.805
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know you really.
02:06.886 --> 02:07.567
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, and that's it.
02:07.587 --> 02:15.895
[SPEAKER_03]: So in this episode, we'll talk about the pathway to connection and just even the fundamentals of how to do relationship with God or another person.
02:15.875 --> 02:22.501
[SPEAKER_03]: My dad's a medical doctor and he often has observed that no one dies of natural causes, okay?
02:22.822 --> 02:23.723
[SPEAKER_03]: No one dies of old age.
02:23.923 --> 02:30.950
[SPEAKER_03]: There's actually a cute things that give out in the body that are very precise that you could look at and say, this is what killed this person, okay?
02:31.270 --> 02:34.793
[SPEAKER_03]: In the same way with relationship, there are cute reasons why we're not connected.
02:34.813 --> 02:35.414
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not like this.
02:35.754 --> 02:38.317
[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't have to be or remain this huge mystery.
02:38.857 --> 02:39.258
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
02:39.298 --> 02:41.140
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how to be a human being in relationship.
02:41.320 --> 02:43.722
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know the reasons why I'm not.
02:43.702 --> 03:00.989
[SPEAKER_03]: I think one of the gifts of 10 man and one of the gifts of y'all's ministry is you all are able with some precision coming and say, hey, here's what's not happening and where that if it were resolved could result in a lot more connection with God, self and others, and Todd, you've created a really helpful tool in 10 man around the five A's.
03:01.149 --> 03:07.699
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think if we can unpack those five A's, this is going to really help our audience understand the pathway to connection with God and connection with others.
03:07.720 --> 03:11.245
[SPEAKER_03]: So why don't we spend some time just unpacking what those five A's are?
03:11.393 --> 03:19.742
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, you know, we at Tim and we began to see early on as people wanting, wanting help, but they wanted to go right to correcting the behavior.
03:19.782 --> 03:23.245
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll tell you what I'm doing, just get me to correcting the behavior.
03:23.325 --> 03:26.389
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the church does that as well.
03:26.409 --> 03:41.164
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think what we see and what we do, and I think this is what Eden Project is all about, it's really helping men and women say, how do we have long-term gospel change, not just corrective behavior change?
03:41.583 --> 03:44.266
[SPEAKER_01]: For us, discipleship takes a lot of time.
03:44.627 --> 03:53.738
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think a lot of people just don't want to take the time to disciple people or be with people, because they want to get them in the door and out of the door, just as fast as possible.
03:53.878 --> 04:02.128
[SPEAKER_01]: And that the relational piece is why I think what we've seen is missing at a 10-man with the discipleship.
04:03.169 --> 04:07.074
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a relational ministry, not a corrective ministry.
04:07.094 --> 04:07.995
[SPEAKER_01]: And so
04:07.975 --> 04:35.991
[SPEAKER_01]: uh... with the work of some other guys at ten men we came up with these five days to say how do we get people to get to a place of how got created under the ramago day where's it starts starts with admission but what we've seen people go from the mission to what we would say as a liement or correction uh... and so we said what's the model we can use to move people into a really formalized discipleship place and we came up with five days and that those five days are mission acceptance
04:36.528 --> 04:39.291
[SPEAKER_01]: a toolman attachment and alignment.
04:39.411 --> 04:48.779
[SPEAKER_01]: One writer says this that every discipleship relationship is meant for one man or one woman to build a bridge to another that can bear the way to truth.
04:49.380 --> 04:55.686
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think a lot of truth is being shared with someone without the relational bridge that can bear the way to truth.
04:55.826 --> 05:01.531
[SPEAKER_01]: And so either they get shamed into behavior change or they get rejected and they don't have lasting change.
05:01.611 --> 05:02.432
[SPEAKER_01]: Just go out the door.
05:02.452 --> 05:05.455
[SPEAKER_01]: So this the model we came up with
05:05.435 --> 05:05.996
[SPEAKER_03]: That's huge.
05:06.016 --> 05:11.922
[SPEAKER_03]: In fact, you know, Simmons also observes that a gustant said that human hearts really close down when they feel judgment.
05:12.622 --> 05:19.629
[SPEAKER_03]: So this idea that we maybe sometimes we think in the church that we have a mic or we have access to someone or a bridge that we don't really have.
05:20.150 --> 05:30.300
[SPEAKER_03]: And so even though we get the content, maybe the right biblical content to the person, the heart is actually closed off because we don't know if there are people yet.
05:30.480 --> 05:32.202
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't know if we're loved yet.
05:32.182 --> 05:36.390
[SPEAKER_03]: And we've heard that phrase that people don't know how much, they don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
05:36.731 --> 05:37.732
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's really true.
05:37.793 --> 05:39.235
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, are we connected?
05:39.255 --> 05:43.403
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you really for me as you bring this heavy truck load of truth over this bridge?
05:43.443 --> 05:47.030
[SPEAKER_03]: Can I really support that with you and receive that from you?
05:47.451 --> 05:50.056
[SPEAKER_03]: And I guess instead ultimately, in me case we can't.
05:50.156 --> 05:53.903
[SPEAKER_03]: If I still think you're judging me and not loving me, I'm like,
05:53.883 --> 05:54.945
[SPEAKER_03]: might be the right answer.
05:55.226 --> 05:57.171
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just not willing to receive the right answer from you.
05:57.872 --> 06:03.164
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's not, it's not transforming as much as maybe we think it is, even if it is the right answer.
06:03.585 --> 06:04.207
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, that's huge.
06:04.227 --> 06:06.632
[SPEAKER_03]: So they walk us through how the 5A's work.
06:06.652 --> 06:07.915
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, let's start with admission.
06:07.975 --> 06:10.862
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, what are we doing when we're willing to admit something?
06:11.230 --> 06:13.474
[SPEAKER_01]: I think a mission is really what James says.
06:13.514 --> 06:14.336
[SPEAKER_01]: It's confession.
06:14.716 --> 06:23.052
[SPEAKER_01]: A place of like I'm gonna bear my soul my sin to another human being and get it all out there true confession.
06:23.252 --> 06:26.699
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's where I get we get asked all the time.
06:26.899 --> 06:33.812
[SPEAKER_01]: You know A.A. has been around since 1939 I believe and they're like what it's the secret sauce of
06:33.792 --> 06:49.185
[SPEAKER_01]: it's really a place of people get to walk in and first everyone knows like my life is not working and it's not working in a really bad way and so but they bring that admission to the table and I think in the in church culture church settings is
06:49.165 --> 06:53.611
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, we go into a room reading the room, like, can I really bring true admission?
06:53.671 --> 07:14.599
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll bring this much, but I'm not gonna bring, I'm not gonna bring all of it in AA, in AA, rooms, like, oh, I remember walking into my first one, like, man, these people are really telling the truth about themselves, what they've done, and what's going on inside, and so, I think if we can create spaces for true confession,
07:14.579 --> 07:19.344
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what James is getting at, and his small little letter about that.
07:19.684 --> 07:21.506
[SPEAKER_03]: And the opposite of that's what Denial, right?
07:21.606 --> 07:28.153
[SPEAKER_03]: And we talk about what a bearer that is for those who are addicted or or really just for living a really disconnected relational life.
07:28.553 --> 07:30.515
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, I want to admit the truth about myself.
07:30.975 --> 07:38.863
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's Denial, I can't really have a whole lot with God, I can't have a whole lot with anybody else, because we're this deep, you know, on what's really happening.
07:38.883 --> 07:39.304
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's easy.
07:39.364 --> 07:39.764
[SPEAKER_03]: So true.
07:40.004 --> 07:42.527
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and so how does a mission move into acceptance?
07:43.115 --> 07:54.673
[SPEAKER_01]: I think once I begin to bring my insides to your outsides and so on, it says, the two sweetest words for me were in, you know, Phil said to me to me too, it's like, oh, like, I'm not the only one.
07:54.753 --> 07:59.521
[SPEAKER_01]: I knew cognitively, I wasn't the only human being, the only man looking at porn.
07:59.541 --> 08:02.305
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that was obvious of the industry.
08:02.285 --> 08:05.569
[SPEAKER_01]: But I had never heard someone say what I was doing.
08:05.870 --> 08:12.999
[SPEAKER_01]: I heard about loss that I heard about porn, but the underpinnings of all that for me, I was like, man, nobody's telling the truth about that.
08:13.039 --> 08:23.552
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I got into spaces of healthy men that were sharing all of it, and they say me too with outdoor ejection piece of it, and the keep coming back piece.
08:23.572 --> 08:24.894
[SPEAKER_01]: So the me too keep coming back.
08:24.914 --> 08:29.980
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, man, there is a safe place for me to have acceptance.
08:29.960 --> 08:30.922
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's huge.
08:31.302 --> 08:33.345
[SPEAKER_03]: And then how does the acceptance move into a toolman?
08:33.426 --> 08:34.267
[SPEAKER_03]: What is a toolman?
08:34.307 --> 08:35.829
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a little bit of a technical term.
08:35.849 --> 08:37.672
[SPEAKER_03]: Some might not be familiar with.
08:37.692 --> 08:40.457
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe to find it and help us see how it works in relation to it.
08:40.477 --> 08:45.505
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I think the key to these five is this isn't what I'm bringing to the table.
08:45.485 --> 09:01.467
[SPEAKER_01]: These are why I need from other people to be with me as I bring them to, yes, I need to have admission, but I need a trusted person that I can emit something to, and I need someone to accept me for what I'm bringing to the table, which will always lead to a toolment.
09:01.487 --> 09:06.174
[SPEAKER_01]: I found this a cross-dick for a toolment online.
09:06.194 --> 09:07.616
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, man, that is so good.
09:08.417 --> 09:12.943
[SPEAKER_01]: And they would say a tool
09:12.923 --> 09:15.125
[SPEAKER_01]: We need someone to turn towards us.
09:15.906 --> 09:20.952
[SPEAKER_01]: We need someone to tolerate us, not tolerate our sin, but tolerate the junk I'm bringing to the table.
09:21.753 --> 09:30.923
[SPEAKER_01]: With that tolerance and understanding, I remember sitting with feeling, he had an understanding of what it was like to be in my shoes with what we would call sin or addiction.
09:30.963 --> 09:33.446
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I was like man, he actually gets what I'm talking about.
09:33.466 --> 09:41.074
[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't get it theoretically, but he's lived that life and then a non-judgment or response.
09:41.273 --> 09:58.091
[SPEAKER_01]: which will lead to empathy and I think this is the essence of Jesus right Jesus had these things I mean he really did he had a awareness of sin He had a turning towards sin not away from sin.
09:58.171 --> 10:04.378
[SPEAKER_01]: He turned towards it And he not that he tolerated, but he that's who he came for
10:04.358 --> 10:14.352
[SPEAKER_01]: he came for the centers and then at that came that he had an understanding a non-judgmental non-judgmental response and a real empathy for it.
10:14.613 --> 10:16.555
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's what a toolman means.
10:16.655 --> 10:20.040
[SPEAKER_01]: I love Dan Allen just quote in his book, Redeemey Arcade.
10:20.261 --> 10:20.741
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll read it.
10:21.142 --> 10:22.263
[SPEAKER_01]: He says this about a toolman.
10:22.404 --> 10:33.319
[SPEAKER_01]: A toolman is about bearing witness to the crimes that have been committed against another person and the marring of that person's glory as a result of it.
10:33.299 --> 10:39.470
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, like being able to sit with Selen's story is really what a, like a two-man is.
10:39.490 --> 10:40.531
[SPEAKER_03]: I love it.
10:40.872 --> 10:45.180
[SPEAKER_03]: Even as you said, the turning phase two, I mean, that's the blessing of number six, right?
10:45.640 --> 10:58.783
[SPEAKER_03]: That Moses commands Aaron, hey, when you bless my people as the mediator between me and them, I want you to tell them that I've turned my face upon them, to be gracious to them, that I've come to see them, and to give them peace.
10:58.763 --> 11:19.287
[SPEAKER_03]: But that really is an attentive, gracious relational response, even again in the Old Testament where in the last episode we said sometimes we think Old Testament God is angry, but he's actually an attuning relational God who is we need starting towards us is doing so in grace and then what happens when we attune what's the next step with the testimony.
11:19.638 --> 11:23.362
[SPEAKER_01]: the attachment is just now I'm connected with another human being.
11:23.803 --> 11:28.588
[SPEAKER_01]: One of our teammates said this, it's really the the Hessid love of God.
11:28.628 --> 11:33.613
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, man, I think for me that that's the piece in my own story.
11:33.653 --> 11:42.964
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was a pastor at the time of my falling, but I never felt those other things at which man I've really never felt the connection with God or other people.
11:42.984 --> 11:49.611
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that,
11:49.591 --> 12:11.211
[SPEAKER_01]: you have to tune into something to be attached to it so it's like there's old radio station like if you're one like little bit off to the right of the left when you are tuning into a radio station you can really attach to the music sure and i thought often times like people don't actually get me and because they don't get me i can't attach to them they can't attach to me and so again sitting with film
12:11.866 --> 12:16.502
[SPEAKER_01]: which is it's so amazing that God would bring us full circle to be on a staff together like man.
12:16.883 --> 12:20.034
[SPEAKER_01]: With the man that had led me all the way through this piece of it.
12:20.054 --> 12:23.766
[SPEAKER_01]: So that attachment for me is huge.
12:24.404 --> 12:25.386
[SPEAKER_01]: so that's what it looks like.
12:25.446 --> 12:29.011
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, one writer says this about attachment.
12:29.031 --> 12:37.224
[SPEAKER_01]: He says attachment is the emotional bond that we develop with a person who will be there for you and who truly knows you.
12:38.266 --> 12:41.631
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not just being there for you, but to truly know who you are.
12:42.252 --> 12:43.694
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the attachment piece.
12:43.714 --> 12:49.804
[SPEAKER_03]: What's based on truth, real transparency relationship with relationship
12:49.784 --> 12:50.527
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, okay.
12:50.889 --> 12:52.838
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's almost a synonym for connection.
12:52.918 --> 12:54.284
[SPEAKER_03]: It's it's relationality.
12:54.304 --> 12:56.052
[SPEAKER_03]: It's intimacy attachment.
12:56.092 --> 12:56.494
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
12:56.835 --> 12:59.507
[SPEAKER_03]: And then how does attachment potentially move into alignment?
12:59.639 --> 13:01.161
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, so the last part is alignment.
13:01.181 --> 13:03.404
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we get people back to how God created them?
13:03.624 --> 13:05.346
[SPEAKER_01]: We say alignment or correction.
13:05.767 --> 13:10.273
[SPEAKER_01]: So if my life is off this way, I need someone to bring correction to get me back to how God created me.
13:10.293 --> 13:11.975
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'd need that from another human being.
13:12.015 --> 13:14.719
[SPEAKER_01]: I need someone to be my side mirrors the same.
13:14.779 --> 13:16.581
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're just a little bit off.
13:17.742 --> 13:19.965
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's where the correction piece comes in.
13:20.486 --> 13:23.510
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, the church has gone from, hey, you got a mission.
13:24.091 --> 13:25.933
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you better go get your life right.
13:25.913 --> 13:34.724
[SPEAKER_01]: And that middle section is the long process of building relationship and vesting in relationship that we don't have time for.
13:34.744 --> 13:40.692
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you look at Jesus, he's like, man, he spent a lot of time with his disciples.
13:40.953 --> 13:43.796
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he, for three years, and then he commissioned them.
13:43.816 --> 13:46.740
[SPEAKER_01]: But he was doing these things with him throughout the journey, so.
13:46.720 --> 14:02.063
[SPEAKER_03]: That's so you guys are talking, I was thinking of Ephesians 4, yes we got to speak the truth in love but before that it's like as each part is properly fitted together there's a unity piece and a relational piece that precedes the just speaking the truth in love or maybe even in love is this idea of.
14:02.043 --> 14:09.757
[SPEAKER_03]: they understand that you're doing it from a place of relationship, trust, acceptance, attunement, that's really beautiful.
14:10.138 --> 14:11.941
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we're talking about the pathway to connection.
14:12.943 --> 14:15.207
[SPEAKER_03]: These five days, how do they work with God?
14:15.227 --> 14:21.739
[SPEAKER_03]: And where do we see it in the scripture where somebody's walk in this path to connection with God directly in the scriptures?
14:21.719 --> 14:27.568
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh man, I think all over, I think the first place is a place of true admission or surrender.
14:27.828 --> 14:32.355
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I have to admit my perilousness over my life and admit that to God.
14:32.375 --> 14:33.957
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think the songs are a great place.
14:33.977 --> 14:38.544
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the Gospels are a great place because our admission will lead us to our neediness.
14:38.604 --> 14:41.348
[SPEAKER_01]: Our neediness leads us to relationship with God and other people.
14:41.328 --> 14:42.632
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, that's one of the places.
14:42.652 --> 14:52.479
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you mentioned that Psalms, I mean, it just seems like David is walking these five days over and over and over, even through a diverse series of circumstances and a diverse series of emotions, right?
14:52.579 --> 14:56.991
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, isn't that descriptive of what it looks like for him to pray with God?
14:56.971 --> 14:57.572
[SPEAKER_01]: So true.
14:58.213 --> 15:04.944
[SPEAKER_01]: I think another place you look at Joe, you know, I think Joe's friend wanted to move him right to alignment.
15:05.044 --> 15:06.346
[SPEAKER_01]: He made you can't do that with God.
15:06.988 --> 15:09.692
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you see this process with Joe throughout the print.
15:09.712 --> 15:12.376
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the verse that Phil Sharon earlier.
15:12.537 --> 15:18.186
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh man, what I've always heard about you now my eyes have finally seen what I've heard about.
15:18.166 --> 15:38.180
[SPEAKER_01]: So when that's they got he let him just kind of ran rave all the way through almost the verse chapter 40 three I believe and then God's like okay, now let me tell you who I am and bring to a correction and that's where Joe like oh my goodness like he he really does transform him through his Showing up in his life and correcting him love it.
15:38.200 --> 15:38.821
[SPEAKER_03]: What about you Phil?
15:38.861 --> 15:42.908
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you see maybe the five days or this pathway to connection show up with God?
15:43.175 --> 15:53.713
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot on the table, these five words, Todd just said it so beautifully, the distance between admission and alignment, that's where the work, that's where the sausage gets made.
15:54.394 --> 16:02.989
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I'm just thinking, you mentioned, I was speaking the truth in love, like, part of speaking the truth in love is,
16:02.969 --> 16:10.059
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I love the person making the admission and in that love for them, I too mid-mitting my humanness.
16:10.740 --> 16:15.326
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't mean I've been through exactly what you've been through, but it means I am a human.
16:15.967 --> 16:17.810
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have these were feelings coming in.
16:17.910 --> 16:23.678
[SPEAKER_02]: I have these feelings about my life when I have the feelings you're having right now.
16:24.282 --> 16:43.033
[SPEAKER_02]: And like when I can admit my humanness as someone admits their sin or I'm admitting my sin they admit their humanness in it it's not it's not going yeah, I'm a sinner too, but it's like yes, I know this in the human condition and y'all both have mentioned the Psalm so beautifully I think about Psalm 32
16:43.013 --> 16:49.844
[SPEAKER_02]: or David, you know, he has, it's the, it's the prequel to Psalm 51, you know, the great contrition, Psalm, Confessions, Psalm.
16:49.864 --> 16:53.049
[SPEAKER_02]: And David is very aware and is something so beautiful.
16:53.109 --> 16:55.774
[SPEAKER_02]: He makes an admission on several levels.
16:55.834 --> 16:59.740
[SPEAKER_02]: And what admission was, I didn't say anything about this.
16:59.720 --> 17:21.627
[SPEAKER_02]: and it it killed me that you look at my bones wasted away it means my vigor the the like the liquid in me oozed out my Davidness was leaving me and then just the acceptance of okay acceptance is an outcome of of sadness it will talk about a later podcast but like in my
17:21.607 --> 17:51.478
[SPEAKER_02]: sadness around what my life came to, what I did and all the backdrop of that, like I'm accepting that that's what happened and then the atonement with, when I began to speak out loud, my identity came back to me and when I was able to see me clearly, I could then see God clearly, beautiful, making confession, because his friend Nathan loved him, said, hey, you're the man, so to speak and then the whole attachment piece is that we don't need to miss
17:51.458 --> 18:06.979
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, these slats that Todd has put between these two things, that attunement piece, where he is going, attachment piece, where he is saying, oh, I'm attached with me, and now I can see you, and now I can get back in the game called life.
18:07.239 --> 18:20.217
[SPEAKER_02]: I can live again, and interestingly enough, the word relief means to relive, it really means resurrection, and so I have the relief of making as Todd said confession, which we
18:20.197 --> 18:21.120
[SPEAKER_02]: of these things.
18:21.240 --> 18:28.543
[SPEAKER_02]: And now I'm back in alignment with the God who made me and back in alignment and able to be with me and God and others.
18:28.944 --> 18:30.088
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, uh,
18:30.473 --> 18:35.360
[SPEAKER_02]: This whole conversation around those five A's and the hard work, that's what's so effective.
18:35.420 --> 18:51.123
[SPEAKER_02]: People say, well, why in the world would I need to go to treatment, in other words, people listening and watching this right now, maybe having those questions about themselves are a loved one, and the answer to that question is exactly what we've been talking about today, because those slats have got to be built and they're built across time.
18:51.183 --> 18:54.388
[SPEAKER_02]: And we talked earlier, Duke, the three of us were talking about.
18:54.368 --> 18:59.434
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like these Psalms, we see David turn Psalm 32 in just a few verses.
18:59.494 --> 19:01.075
[SPEAKER_02]: We see this guy turn completely around.
19:01.095 --> 19:04.239
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that may have taken weeks and weeks and weeks to do that.
19:04.339 --> 19:11.647
[SPEAKER_02]: And so these A is a make for a great little iteration, but they really do line out what Ephesians says.
19:11.827 --> 19:18.655
[SPEAKER_02]: Can I speak the truth in love and part of my love is I will speak of my humanist to you as you speak yours to me.
19:18.635 --> 19:21.681
[SPEAKER_02]: and then all the way back across the tracks we've already talked about.
19:21.701 --> 19:26.550
[SPEAKER_02]: But those are so huge and Nathan mentioned in a previous podcast that the three of us did.
19:26.570 --> 19:32.821
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, this God who says, I do sympathize with everything.
19:32.941 --> 19:38.652
[SPEAKER_02]: I've committed no sin, but man, I know the human condition and the truth of struggle.
19:38.632 --> 19:40.575
[SPEAKER_02]: And I can be with you in that.
19:40.675 --> 19:45.784
[SPEAKER_02]: So to me, the fountainhead of admission being, you know, with mission.
19:45.844 --> 19:48.348
[SPEAKER_02]: If you break that word down, I'm in mission with you.
19:48.408 --> 19:52.314
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're in the mission with me of restoration to God's self and others.
19:52.695 --> 19:53.196
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
19:53.216 --> 19:55.219
[SPEAKER_02]: Leading to that ultimate place.
19:55.299 --> 19:55.940
[SPEAKER_03]: That's helpful.
19:56.441 --> 20:00.988
[SPEAKER_03]: And it may be Jeff Schultier, one of you I've heard speak to feeling felt.
20:01.449 --> 20:01.750
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
20:01.930 --> 20:05.736
[SPEAKER_03]: Or being seen as some of the language I'm getting even when you talk about.
20:05.716 --> 20:15.761
[SPEAKER_03]: that acceptance or that attenement, the person on the other side of you, whether it's God or another, rather a sister in Christ, you have the sense that they really do know.
20:16.021 --> 20:16.262
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
20:16.643 --> 20:21.615
[SPEAKER_03]: And that they don't have a hierarchy in mind or they're looking down upon you or they're
20:21.595 --> 20:35.788
[SPEAKER_03]: or there's a pity or or even a judgment, but it's like, oh man, fellowship, grieving with, having feelings about true life, resonating to certain degree, and different in the particulars, but relatable.
20:35.928 --> 20:36.989
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm a human too.
20:37.009 --> 20:46.478
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel what you feel, I see what you see, I lived a lot of what you've lived, and even have a God in the flesh who can say that with integrity.
20:46.978 --> 20:49.240
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, like, oh, yeah, it's really hard out there.
20:49.220 --> 20:50.622
[SPEAKER_03]: like rejection hurts.
20:51.383 --> 20:55.550
[SPEAKER_03]: When you come for a people to love them and save them and they reject you, like, that's just painful.
20:55.590 --> 21:17.303
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, grieving it at, you know, the funeral of a friend, it's like, it's just really sad to lose somebody that you love in Lazarus or, yeah, but that's just as you're talking, I'm just so encouraged to know that we are felt by God, like he knows
21:17.283 --> 21:40.860
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, Dan Seagull, Kurt Thompson quotes Dan Seagull as in the, you know, the four S's of secure attachment to be seen, I mean, you said, to feel seen, oh, you see me and sued, which is to be comforted, which the back end of the word comfort means fortification, comfort, to be to be strengthened through presence.
21:40.840 --> 21:44.947
[SPEAKER_02]: And then to be safe, I mean, someone's looking out for my welfare and to be secure.
21:45.268 --> 21:46.851
[SPEAKER_02]: So I can struggle in front of you.
21:46.911 --> 21:47.792
[SPEAKER_02]: You won't reject me.
21:47.833 --> 21:48.734
[SPEAKER_02]: You want to abandon me.
21:48.774 --> 21:50.037
[SPEAKER_02]: You will humiliate me.
21:50.277 --> 21:51.299
[SPEAKER_02]: You will be with me.
21:51.619 --> 21:53.162
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a secure relationship.
21:53.222 --> 21:55.947
[SPEAKER_02]: So even that part of what you're saying.
21:56.107 --> 21:59.093
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, these four things, God says, I see you.
21:59.113 --> 22:01.116
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel you, you're safe with me.
22:01.136 --> 22:02.038
[SPEAKER_02]: You're secure with me.
22:02.018 --> 22:11.389
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's universal, like when I talk to people of all walks of life, there is not a human being when they're being honest who doesn't desperately want that.
22:11.769 --> 22:16.595
[SPEAKER_03]: Doesn't want that with God and doesn't want that with some other spiritual friends that they can really live with.
22:17.115 --> 22:19.197
[SPEAKER_03]: Doesn't want that in their marriage or with their kids.
22:19.718 --> 22:24.403
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not a, it's not a, a nice city of the few or a niche.
22:24.644 --> 22:27.547
[SPEAKER_03]: It's actually just right down the center of the fairway of humanity.
22:27.647 --> 22:28.027
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
22:28.048 --> 22:30.270
[SPEAKER_03]: We were made for that and we all want it.
22:30.250 --> 22:50.132
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're living, I feel more like this jointed joints when we're not experiencing it's not natural to live a life where we don't have that attachment It's loneliness and obviously the loneliness epidemic and we're seeing all the fallout, you guys have mentioned addiction addiction, it's a relational problem
22:50.112 --> 22:50.693
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, right.
22:50.993 --> 22:51.974
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, Chelsea has shared with me.
22:51.994 --> 22:54.458
[SPEAKER_03]: It's an imperative temp that intimacy without vulnerability.
22:54.858 --> 22:59.204
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to get something that feels like living, that's a simulation of connection.
22:59.224 --> 23:03.029
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not really connection because I'm not experiencing connection.
23:03.049 --> 23:06.353
[SPEAKER_03]: And so you said, we can't just boat race people to alignment.
23:06.373 --> 23:12.161
[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes we've got to help them connect to the real thing so they don't need the virtual thing.
23:12.181 --> 23:17.908
[SPEAKER_03]: They don't need the simulation anymore because they're getting the thing they were trying to work with God.
23:17.888 --> 23:34.419
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Phil tells our coaches all the time, you know, oversees all of our coaches that timings like the thing that we bring to the table is we're trying to answer the greatest new to the human heart, which is too full, do you matter and do you belong and we're answering that question with them, like matter and belong and that's what we're talking about.
23:34.479 --> 23:36.302
[SPEAKER_01]: Those two things.
23:36.282 --> 23:38.165
[SPEAKER_03]: No human is not asking that, that's right.
23:38.305 --> 23:40.648
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's just the core to an anthropology.
23:41.510 --> 23:44.394
[SPEAKER_03]: And the theology of emotion is the pathway.
23:44.634 --> 23:48.039
[SPEAKER_03]: What we're talking about, the five A's is the only way to walk into that attachment.
23:48.160 --> 23:50.343
[SPEAKER_03]: And take experience, the things that are at the core.
23:50.363 --> 24:00.518
[SPEAKER_02]: And so you look at what even when a little child draws a picture, they're making an offering what you do this with me.
24:00.498 --> 24:03.181
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, will you attuned to me and go, that's amazing.
24:03.201 --> 24:05.703
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was a big, big trip from my parents.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I know.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's a nice color scheme.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Right, but they're doing these five A, they're doing those things.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like will you be human and delight in this?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then on that a lot.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So even what you're talking about, no human doesn't want that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And even when they, and I heard Kirk Thompson say this, he said, children don't draw pictures to put them in a drawer.
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[SPEAKER_02]: that draw pictures to present and say, hey, you want to look at me with me?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what you just said.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's put it on a refrigerator and let's like, let's be known.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Can we do life in relationship with one another?
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[SPEAKER_03]: The light in it.
24:41.529 --> 24:43.811
[SPEAKER_03]: And then, yeah, that's huge.
24:43.832 --> 24:44.412
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, thank you guys.
24:44.432 --> 24:45.353
[SPEAKER_03]: This is so helpful.
24:45.814 --> 24:48.738
[SPEAKER_03]: The five A's have been incredibly helpful for to me, Todd.
24:49.058 --> 24:50.960
[SPEAKER_03]: This has all been really clarifying.
24:51.081 --> 24:55.446
[SPEAKER_03]: So that, again, I can understand when I'm off the path, I'm not willing to admit something.
24:55.426 --> 25:22.530
[SPEAKER_03]: not willing to tell the truth about it yet to somebody okay that's why i'm stuck and don't feel connected and if i'll kind of gain the courage emotionally relationally to do so i think i can move in if i'm dealing with a satin person i'm dealing with a empathetic listener who's really for me and isn't judging me i think i could start to connect and it's it's transformed my prayer life it's transformed and one of the ways is that my prayer life looks way more like David and the songs than it previously does
25:22.510 --> 25:31.880
[SPEAKER_03]: Before it was a lot more propositional, it was a lot more praying like theology back to God, but it wasn't as relational because it didn't involve what Simmons all had said.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's a emotional encounter that is at the core of who I am.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so I just really thankful for you guys.
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[SPEAKER_03]: This is like a personal blessing to me that you guys do what you do.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's a personal blessing to you guys and listen to this podcast.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That if you'll walk this path,
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[SPEAKER_03]: I believe you're kind of live in a much deeper connection with God, self and others, and you are going to be really present with yourself.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You are going to live into your design, your design and that's really the mission of the project.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're trying to rebuild the relational habitat that we were created for.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're trying to optimize for relationship.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're saying, hey, you're being called to optimize for a lot of other things.
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[SPEAKER_03]: perfect health or productivity, profitability, whatever, we're saying what if what if we optimize for relationship and we started to pay attention to the things that are necessary to really live fully with God with ourselves with us.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I thank you guys for being here, incredibly insightful, very, very helpful and I'm just thankful that all of what y'all shared sits on like decades of lived experience and wisdom and so it's just a gift to go to give that to a broader audience.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the Reformed Podcast.
26:40.439 --> 26:43.288
[SPEAKER_00]: If you like what you heard, hit that subscribe button.
26:43.529 --> 26:44.672
[SPEAKER_00]: Share it with your friends.
26:44.953 --> 26:49.988
[SPEAKER_00]: Leave us a rating and check out our other resources at theeatenproject.com.
26:50.930 --> 26:51.512
[SPEAKER_00]: Peace!
