WEBVTT
00:03.237 --> 00:20.267
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Reform and be in private podcasts and bracing the beauty and brokenness in your journey with God.
00:22.542 --> 00:26.908
[SPEAKER_02]: In this episode, we're going to talk about shame, which is a little bit of a wet blanket, probably.
00:26.928 --> 00:37.062
[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody loves shame, and yet, because it's so ever present, because it's something that we deal with so often, and it's so gosh destructive in so many ways.
00:37.102 --> 00:44.653
[SPEAKER_02]: It's critical that we have at theology of it, and we know what to do with it, and we know how it's impacting relationship and others, and so let's start with you, Todd.
00:45.073 --> 00:47.757
[SPEAKER_02]: What are we experiencing when do we experience shame?
00:48.209 --> 01:06.698
[SPEAKER_03]: The shame is that the feeling God gave us to allow us to know our dependence in our humanity, like my limitations, you know, we see that so well in the garden, you know, he's just showing them over and over again their neediness for him and that's all what really healthy shame is.
01:06.738 --> 01:12.107
[SPEAKER_03]: I think when you talk about shame, shame is such a hard one to talk and
01:12.087 --> 01:18.135
[SPEAKER_03]: because you got healthy shame, got toxic shame, got shame, so it's like the nuances of shame.
01:19.197 --> 01:25.766
[SPEAKER_03]: But it really is the thing that keeps us most in a place of dependence on God and other people.
01:26.006 --> 01:31.193
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I'm very, very, I'm a human, so I have super, super limitations.
01:31.173 --> 01:34.699
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think, you know, we don't want to have limitations.
01:34.819 --> 01:42.892
[SPEAKER_03]: We want to, you know, I don't know if it's, I don't know who said it, but, you know, the acronym for shame is should have already mastered everything.
01:42.912 --> 01:51.786
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, I go in life, not looking at how God created me, and wired me in my giftedness, but I look at man, these are the places I'm lacking.
01:51.826 --> 01:55.792
[SPEAKER_03]: So I better go spend a lot of time, a lot of energy, all the place I'm lacking.
01:55.852 --> 01:59.037
[SPEAKER_03]: But when I do that, I don't give credit and give,
01:59.017 --> 02:28.399
[SPEAKER_03]: Credence to my gifts, and so I forced sake the gifts God's given me because I don't want to be Needy and dependent on other people so I got to work really hard And if you're if anyone that knows me well, I am a terrible admin person I am horrible admin, but I early in my journey as a as a pastor I spent a lot of time trying to be a better admin person and I forced up the gifts that God had given to me and now I'm like oh man
02:28.379 --> 02:33.471
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't let someone else that's really good at administration do administration.
02:33.512 --> 02:41.511
[SPEAKER_03]: Let me do what God's called me to do, and so there's been such a freedom to pay attention to my shame or around where God has limited to be.
02:41.592 --> 02:46.041
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, let's have a let's take the parsing of of healthy shame, shame, and talks of shame.
02:46.061 --> 02:48.305
[SPEAKER_02]: Just so people can hear the nuance of that.
02:48.325 --> 02:52.954
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm hearing healthy shame, sounds like self-awareness, is that is that helpful?
02:53.535 --> 02:56.361
[SPEAKER_02]: Someone here's healthy shame, I mean, I've never even heard those two words put together.
02:57.222 --> 02:59.387
[SPEAKER_02]: When it's healthy, is it, is it a kind of self-awareness?
02:59.407 --> 03:03.374
[SPEAKER_02]: I know where I'm good, where I'm not, I just know my limits, I know my strengths.
03:03.394 --> 03:03.735
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
03:03.715 --> 03:15.308
[SPEAKER_03]: I would say so it's like a true recognition who I am how God made me it would be healthy shame, toxic shame is and how I don't want to be made and I'm going to make sure I'm not made that way.
03:15.809 --> 03:18.838
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's how I would new on to it.
03:19.156 --> 03:29.474
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so toxic shame is a is reactionary or it is is it hiding is it self-hate like what what is what does it feel like how will someone like in their own chess go?
03:29.894 --> 03:32.158
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so awareness is one thing toxic shame.
03:32.198 --> 03:35.464
[SPEAKER_02]: How will I know when I've dropped into something that's toxic?
03:35.764 --> 03:37.868
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there are two phrases that go to toxic shame.
03:37.888 --> 03:41.434
[SPEAKER_01]: Dude one is despising my humaneness
03:41.515 --> 03:45.901
[SPEAKER_01]: And the other is how I label or define myself when I have feelings.
03:46.762 --> 03:48.584
[SPEAKER_01]: And feelings are of language of vulnerability.
03:48.844 --> 03:54.031
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I'm a vulnerable human, which means I'm in need, I label myself a certain way.
03:54.291 --> 04:02.442
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm stupid, I'm ugly, I'm no good, I'm in the way, I'm in disruption, all those labeling ways, which tend to come from our stories.
04:02.502 --> 04:09.531
[SPEAKER_01]: What were we told verbal explicitly or implicitly was true about me when I failed at something?
04:09.511 --> 04:11.174
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Toxic Shame and Toxic Example.
04:11.494 --> 04:13.638
[SPEAKER_01]: He and I share that quality around administration.
04:14.739 --> 04:23.093
[SPEAKER_01]: Toxic Shame would be, I'm no good, I'm stupid, I'm disorganized, I'm kind of an idiot, because I can't keep a schedule straight.
04:23.173 --> 04:24.515
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be the Toxic Form.
04:25.036 --> 04:32.087
[SPEAKER_01]: But what Toad described was, he had, and I will credit our friend Jeff Schulte with this phrase, theology.
04:32.268 --> 04:35.653
[SPEAKER_01]: He said,
04:35.633 --> 04:38.018
[SPEAKER_01]: be the word unashamedness of humanness.
04:38.759 --> 04:48.419
[SPEAKER_01]: I got unashamed Jesus, Philippians 2, 5, 11, the conodic, the passage of canosis that we call it, theologically, the emptying out of Christ.
04:48.520 --> 04:55.093
[SPEAKER_01]: He says, He did not consider His being God something to be grasped or exploited.
04:55.073 --> 04:58.117
[SPEAKER_01]: And so Jesus was unashamed of His humanness.
04:58.858 --> 05:01.262
[SPEAKER_01]: So Jesus wasn't shame-filled, like we would say.
05:01.322 --> 05:03.024
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's a such a beautiful example.
05:03.044 --> 05:05.307
[SPEAKER_01]: You could just unpack that passage for 100 years.
05:06.128 --> 05:07.751
[SPEAKER_01]: All eternity, actually.
05:07.811 --> 05:14.520
[SPEAKER_01]: But that first phrase in there is a great description of how Jesus lived out being unashamed of being a human.
05:14.600 --> 05:17.604
[SPEAKER_01]: He came and said, yes, I'm fully God.
05:17.945 --> 05:19.006
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm fully human.
05:19.147 --> 05:23.713
[SPEAKER_01]: And I carry no shame around taking on the limitations of a human being.
05:23.693 --> 05:51.979
[SPEAKER_02]: yeah so with Jesus is at the well he's sitting down because he's tired because he's been out walking all day long he's like oh yeah when I'm tired I can sit down I can't keep going when the crowds are coming and literally lining up with basically a hospital ward of he's healing every single person in the city just imagine the exhaustion of one after another after another he's the eardock with the unending waiting room and he's like I'm gonna sneak off I'm getting out of town I'm waking up early
05:51.959 --> 05:54.281
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't keep doing this.
05:54.482 --> 05:59.287
[SPEAKER_01]: And Tachik Shame says, I am somehow deficient because that's true.
06:00.087 --> 06:02.730
[SPEAKER_01]: And Jesus, I'm not deficient because that's true.
06:02.830 --> 06:05.493
[SPEAKER_01]: And Todd's example, Todd was saying, I'm deficient.
06:05.573 --> 06:14.242
[SPEAKER_01]: Todd just said, because really what humility is, this gift we're talking about with healthy shame is I tell the truth about my giftedness.
06:14.903 --> 06:16.344
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really good at these things.
06:17.085 --> 06:21.730
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got his maybe in such a way, this is a level of competence and expertise for me.
06:21.912 --> 06:24.134
[SPEAKER_01]: and I am terrible at these things.
06:24.175 --> 06:25.216
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just not good at that.
06:25.836 --> 06:30.101
[SPEAKER_01]: So, healthy shame that stands between those two poles says, I'm made in a certain way.
06:30.161 --> 06:34.566
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't give me an excuse to settle in and go, oh well.
06:34.966 --> 06:44.637
[SPEAKER_01]: But what it says is, I need to tell the truth about what I'm good at, how God's made me to flourish, and what I'm not so good at, what other people may have get to listen, I tell the truth about both of those.
06:44.717 --> 06:49.843
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you bring those two things together, it's an unshamadness of my limitation.
06:49.823 --> 06:52.809
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not a deficiency because God knows what He's doing.
06:52.829 --> 06:54.513
[SPEAKER_01]: We create every human.
06:54.814 --> 06:55.575
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
06:55.736 --> 06:58.722
[SPEAKER_01]: And Jesus, like I said earlier, Jesus was not saying.
06:58.862 --> 07:01.929
[SPEAKER_01]: And therefore, I am these terrible things.
07:02.009 --> 07:04.735
[SPEAKER_01]: The toxic shame says, I'm defined in a certain way.
07:04.895 --> 07:08.423
[SPEAKER_01]: And I despise myself because I can't do everything.
07:08.403 --> 07:09.244
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's so helpful.
07:09.625 --> 07:34.562
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so there's the self-awareness of who I am, and then maybe there's some contextual awareness of, hey, it's just been a really busy season, and I'm tired, or I've got a medical limitation that has become a part of why I can't travel as much as I used to, or, you know, a friend of mine just recently had an injury to it, to his leg, wasn't sleeping well, some pain and discomfort that was a limiting
07:34.542 --> 07:38.488
[SPEAKER_02]: And something I guess you could be ashamed of, like I should be able to do everything I normally do.
07:38.808 --> 07:43.234
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, well, right now, in this particular circumstance, because of this particular injury, you can't.
07:44.196 --> 07:54.931
[SPEAKER_02]: And so some of that self-awareness, healthy shame, would be like, oh, at this time, I have a limitation that is different than at other times, but it's keeping me from being able to do what I could do.
07:55.551 --> 07:57.755
[SPEAKER_02]: But you see, I guess that gives us opportunity.
07:57.775 --> 07:58.636
[SPEAKER_02]: We could shame ourselves.
07:58.916 --> 08:01.680
[SPEAKER_02]: I should be able to just motor through and do what I always do.
08:01.660 --> 08:06.048
[SPEAKER_02]: as we get older, where aging and our body do what it used to do.
08:06.549 --> 08:10.737
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a growing awareness of, I'm limited, and I'm not 21 anymore.
08:11.960 --> 08:15.126
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's, yeah, that's a helpful way of thinking about it.
08:15.266 --> 08:24.664
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about what you mentioned the impairments a little bit, we're talking about toxic shame a little bit, but let's say somebody's got shame, but they won't deal honestly with it.
08:24.644 --> 08:26.306
[SPEAKER_02]: What's happening?
08:26.326 --> 08:27.407
[SPEAKER_02]: What is that toxic shame?
08:27.447 --> 08:28.208
[SPEAKER_02]: How does it form?
08:28.368 --> 08:30.490
[SPEAKER_02]: What happens to a human being?
08:30.830 --> 08:32.852
[SPEAKER_02]: It's dealing with a ton of shame in a healthy way.
08:33.893 --> 08:35.856
[SPEAKER_03]: Limits are humility.
08:35.896 --> 08:37.217
[SPEAKER_03]: Limits are humanity.
08:37.517 --> 08:37.918
[SPEAKER_03]: I love it.
08:38.418 --> 08:42.442
[SPEAKER_03]: The guru of shame is Brad Shaw, John Brad Shaw.
08:42.462 --> 08:45.445
[SPEAKER_03]: He wrote a great book back in the 80s.
08:45.505 --> 08:47.547
[SPEAKER_03]: This is what he says about toxic shame.
08:47.828 --> 08:50.010
[SPEAKER_03]: When I read this, I was like, man, that is.
08:49.990 --> 08:50.971
[SPEAKER_03]: So brilliant.
08:51.092 --> 08:56.059
[SPEAKER_03]: He says, toxic shame is the motivator behind all of our toxic behaviors.
08:56.700 --> 09:07.476
[SPEAKER_03]: The compulsions, our codependency, our addictions, and the drive to super-achieve that breaks down the family and destroys personal lives.
09:07.456 --> 09:15.163
[SPEAKER_03]: It limits the ability of self-esteem and causes anxiety to oppression and limits our ability to connect a relationship.
09:15.283 --> 09:17.025
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that's what Tauquic Shamed does.
09:17.105 --> 09:24.571
[SPEAKER_03]: There's just this driving force that's moving me out of relationship with myself, out of relationship with God, out of relationships with other people.
09:25.032 --> 09:30.517
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's what then brings in the anxiety, the control, the addiction, because I'm not made that way.
09:31.117 --> 09:35.421
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we're made to be human, and we're yet...
09:35.401 --> 09:38.265
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, our toxic shame is I don't want to be human.
09:38.706 --> 10:03.720
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be something other than I am And so when I become something other than I am then I then I can't actually do relationships with myself God or other people Yeah, as you're saying that I thought I'm almost imagining shame is like Some built that I'm trying to rub off There's something on me that's wrong with me, but if I'll achieve if I could prove that wrong I could almost overcome that thing and maybe see families that are characterized by shame and if we could
10:03.700 --> 10:08.664
[SPEAKER_02]: if we could have an accomplished child who went out and did something great in the world.
10:08.705 --> 10:26.460
[SPEAKER_02]: And if we could accomplish some things in life, maybe we could get the shame off of our family and that feeling of inadequacy or like we're not enough or we're not as good as some other families down the street and so there's just this, I'm hearing as you're saying, like this current that's pushing against us but we've got to fight against it to overcome.
10:27.081 --> 10:33.707
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about the way that shame is experienced, maybe even in our families as we grew up.
10:33.687 --> 10:42.360
[SPEAKER_02]: his book, The Soul of Shame, talks about how, you know, shame to people, shame people, and that 80% of shame is caught non-verbal.
10:42.761 --> 10:55.080
[SPEAKER_02]: So we've probably all been shamed where someone literally says, you discussed me here, are you just a pitiful excuse for filling the blank baseball player or son or whatever that would be.
10:55.100 --> 10:57.484
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's verbal shaming within, there's just the
10:57.464 --> 11:05.653
[SPEAKER_02]: You drop the fly ball in the outfield, you look up in the stands and your dad's shaking his head and it's just visibly obvious that he's ashamed that you didn't make the play, right?
11:06.214 --> 11:08.617
[SPEAKER_02]: How, what's happening in families around shame?
11:08.637 --> 11:15.425
[SPEAKER_02]: How are we, how are we learning to inhabit how we should hate our humanity, to surprise our humanity, to use your language?
11:16.746 --> 11:19.990
[SPEAKER_02]: What's happening in that formation along the way?
11:20.010 --> 11:24.535
[SPEAKER_01]: You know that limitation is scary.
11:24.515 --> 11:42.557
[SPEAKER_01]: My son's limitations are scary to me as a dad because what I want for him is to be great at everything where he will never have to struggle Impossible and so if parents as parents and in families if parents aren't paying attention to how scary it is
11:42.537 --> 11:57.390
[SPEAKER_01]: For my child, my daughter, my son, to have limitation, which means you're going to struggle, which means you're going to fail, which means you're going to do things that highlight their humaneness if a parent can tell the truth about both ends of that.
11:57.792 --> 11:59.054
[SPEAKER_01]: content like my parents.
12:00.116 --> 12:03.001
[SPEAKER_01]: I never had any aspirations being a mathematician.
12:03.582 --> 12:12.898
[SPEAKER_01]: If I had, I knew a parents to go, hey, man, I love you like crazy mathematics might not be where you're strongest.
12:12.878 --> 12:31.832
[SPEAKER_01]: and that you know it's for parents to be able to tell the truth to their children speaking the truth and love literally to say let me tell you how I experience you how God has made you where you're gifted and where you aren't and I love you and I'm in your corner and man if you want to tackle mathematics how can I help you do it I just want you to know
12:31.812 --> 12:50.985
[SPEAKER_01]: That you're made in a certain way and my experience with you is that this is not something you're really good at But you're I want you to be really good at being how God made you and so if we parents if parents And families could camp out on just telling the truth around how that child is made
12:51.151 --> 13:02.494
[SPEAKER_01]: And when the child ultimately fails, whether something they're good at or not good at necessarily, when the message is, you still have great value to me and great value to God.
13:02.693 --> 13:11.922
[SPEAKER_01]: and there's some mechanics around how can help you improve some of you may have messed up, but ultimately the foundation underneath that is, I love you and I love how you're made.
13:12.623 --> 13:15.506
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that you are and I love how you are.
13:16.226 --> 13:28.819
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's put all those things together as you continue developing through your life and if families did that, I think there would be a lot less territorial in the toxicity of that, a very short example of that.
13:28.799 --> 13:51.432
[SPEAKER_01]: I, at the very beginning of my church staff life, I was in charge of pastoral care right just across the way and forth and I've made a visit to a man who oversaw a huge ministry counseling support group ministry in a church in another state and I went spent a day who's very gracious to host me for a day, this is way by early nineties.
13:51.412 --> 14:07.090
[SPEAKER_01]: And I asked him, he said they had, at the time, they had 36,000 contacts per year, and that just means groups and individual sessions and support groups and all that, that they had about 3,000 a month if this huge church.
14:07.651 --> 14:13.538
[SPEAKER_01]: And I asked him, I said, what would you say is the most common presentation of people walk through the door needing help?
14:13.518 --> 14:16.521
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it might say trauma, anxiety depression.
14:16.862 --> 14:19.585
[SPEAKER_01]: Without hesitation, he said, I'll take exactly what it is.
14:20.266 --> 14:26.453
[SPEAKER_01]: It's people attempting to do something in service that's outside their area of giftedness.
14:27.234 --> 14:35.543
[SPEAKER_01]: And they try and try and try and it runs them into the ground because they cannot admit do their own story or whatever it might be, they cannot admit limitation.
14:35.725 --> 14:43.216
[SPEAKER_02]: They're trying to be good at something that they're not gifted to do for whatever reason they've decided I should already be sure they've already mastered this.
14:43.757 --> 14:47.442
[SPEAKER_02]: I have it, but I'm not going to give up on it I'm going to keep pounding against the wall.
14:47.522 --> 14:48.424
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes to do it.
14:48.444 --> 14:48.604
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
14:48.984 --> 14:49.225
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
14:49.245 --> 14:49.445
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
14:49.705 --> 14:50.567
[SPEAKER_02]: That's it's sad.
14:50.687 --> 14:58.999
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean as you talk about a good parent I was getting the feeling as you were talking about a safe family to say hey we're going to help you discover your gifts We're going to celebrate you
14:58.979 --> 15:09.591
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to love you, whether you do, you don't, we're going to love you, whether you're a mathematician or a counselor, we're just going to walk with you to discover your limits and your gifts and we're going to fan those into flame.
15:09.611 --> 15:20.464
[SPEAKER_02]: I just said, man, that growing up in the family you were describing, it's like I would have a lot of courage to even go and try things because it's like I don't have to be perfect the first time and I don't have to be good at everything.
15:20.444 --> 15:24.210
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's almost a process of elimination, a process of discovery.
15:24.251 --> 15:34.047
[SPEAKER_02]: It's okay if I discover something that I'm not good at, that doesn't come to define me and I don't have to then camp out on that and work on it to make sure it becomes a competency.
15:34.929 --> 15:38.014
[SPEAKER_02]: Pressure is off a little bit and I can settle in and let somebody else be good at that.
15:37.994 --> 15:41.880
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what you mentioned, dude, about like, it got something on me, I can't get off.
15:42.000 --> 15:48.570
[SPEAKER_01]: The failure of that type thing happening is how that gets on the child who grows up to be a grown man or grown woman.
15:48.930 --> 15:51.054
[SPEAKER_01]: You go like, oh, this is stuck to me.
15:51.134 --> 15:56.201
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't get it off, and the lack of that territory of truth telling, redemptive truth telling.
15:56.582 --> 15:58.585
[SPEAKER_01]: That causes us to stick to the skin.
15:58.565 --> 15:58.886
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
15:59.147 --> 15:59.669
[SPEAKER_02]: That's so good.
15:59.930 --> 16:00.873
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about the healthy.
16:00.893 --> 16:04.445
[SPEAKER_02]: What do I need if I'm processing health a shame in a healthy way?
16:05.187 --> 16:06.371
[SPEAKER_02]: What's the need that I have?
16:06.412 --> 16:08.338
[SPEAKER_02]: What's the gift that I received if I'll deal honestly?
16:09.533 --> 16:17.403
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think the need is for someone to be able to see me, and then are tuned to me, and then call out what they see in me.
16:17.423 --> 16:21.468
[SPEAKER_03]: That's one of the greatest gifts, you know, I joke with Phil.
16:21.728 --> 16:24.051
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm his age when I first met him.
16:24.131 --> 16:29.678
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm like, man, if I can become like Phil, like, old commercial, be like Mike, it's like, man, my motto is be like Phil.
16:29.998 --> 16:31.340
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I want to be like Phil.
16:31.820 --> 16:33.202
[SPEAKER_03]: I wish I had a Gatorade for Phil.
16:33.242 --> 16:34.544
[SPEAKER_02]: I wish I had a shoot, I hope he could go.
16:34.604 --> 16:35.905
[SPEAKER_02]: What would be the logo on the show?
16:35.925 --> 16:36.486
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know about that.
16:36.466 --> 16:37.688
[SPEAKER_03]: There's glasses.
16:37.908 --> 16:40.332
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, there's the glasses.
16:40.352 --> 16:41.113
[SPEAKER_03]: I'd buy those shoes.
16:41.133 --> 16:41.915
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a shoe guy.
16:41.935 --> 16:48.626
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think you have a pair of airfields I'd buy them for sure That is literally a first airfield.
16:48.866 --> 16:50.428
[SPEAKER_01]: I got a big old vertical man.
16:51.009 --> 16:52.291
[SPEAKER_03]: You didn't get your hops.
16:53.253 --> 16:53.293
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh
16:53.273 --> 16:55.098
[SPEAKER_03]: But that's the part for me.
16:55.218 --> 16:59.651
[SPEAKER_03]: I, you know, when I met Phil, I was covered with toxic shame.
16:59.811 --> 17:02.338
[SPEAKER_03]: I couldn't even look him in the eyeballs.
17:02.398 --> 17:03.962
[SPEAKER_03]: Literally could not look him in the face.
17:04.063 --> 17:09.257
[SPEAKER_03]: And he saw me and seen me attuned to me and then began to draw out.
17:09.237 --> 17:23.608
[SPEAKER_03]: There's places of giftedness that, you know, I just did not see myself, and I wouldn't be at this table on this podcast without fill, calling me out and seeing things in me, I could not see myself.
17:24.189 --> 17:29.440
[SPEAKER_03]: And because I was just driven by that toxic shame, like,
17:29.420 --> 17:51.968
[SPEAKER_03]: I, you know, not that I didn't want to be a counselor of, you know, a shepherd, like, all that was in me, but it was like, man, when I looked at my peers around me, and I think this was what Paul was saying in Galatians five, he's like, I live with a lot of conceit and envy of other people without being able to delight and what got it called me to do.
17:51.948 --> 18:12.288
[SPEAKER_03]: Because of that he started and into me and to me and to me and to me and see me and call me out And so we've got to surround ourselves with men that will see us and then call that that got us put in us out of us Yeah, yeah, I went back to grad school because of Phil Herndon and Jenny my wife for sure I did describing that.
18:12.348 --> 18:20.436
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm almost and we talk about Eden as the relational habitat we were designed for and the features of Eden but it's almost like
18:20.585 --> 18:23.311
[SPEAKER_02]: feel for you, it allows you to be naked and unshamed.
18:23.792 --> 18:24.333
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, 100%.
18:24.353 --> 18:26.297
[SPEAKER_02]: It'll be like, come, let's come back into Eden.
18:26.637 --> 18:30.525
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll see you exactly as you are, but you shouldn't be ashamed of who you are.
18:30.645 --> 18:42.289
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, in a lot of the work of Christ, because you're deeply love, because he's a tone for every way in which you've sinned, and because you've been reconciled to him and you're a child, you have a spirit, you matter, your life is going to matter.
18:42.269 --> 18:44.711
[SPEAKER_02]: You're going to live with him for eternity or a part of our community.
18:44.971 --> 18:51.417
[SPEAKER_02]: So I thought, oh, you can be totally seen in whatever you were going through, your addiction, all the stuff that was true, and be on a shamed.
18:51.437 --> 18:52.478
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I love you.
18:52.498 --> 19:04.869
[SPEAKER_02]: I see you and I'm not going to leave, you know, which is really coming back to, back to Eden, back to this place that we were designed for to not be ashamed of our humans, not to be ashamed of where we're at.
19:04.889 --> 19:12.276
[SPEAKER_02]: And so now what a gift that he gave you and that you're not giving to others as you're
19:12.256 --> 19:15.681
[SPEAKER_02]: about the stuff, whatever it is, without being rejected.
19:16.121 --> 19:18.524
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, our heard it said that shame dies in the light.
19:19.546 --> 19:27.296
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, you see people who are ashamed, they, oh, I could never tell anybody the thing, the thing that I'm so deeply ashamed of, and the enemies like, oh, that's cool.
19:27.316 --> 19:27.997
[SPEAKER_02]: Keep it that way.
19:28.378 --> 19:30.761
[SPEAKER_02]: And let's continue to keep you enslaved to it.
19:31.201 --> 19:31.882
[SPEAKER_02]: And in the dark.
19:32.263 --> 19:37.770
[SPEAKER_02]: And so counterintuitive, to be like, why would you ever tell someone the thing that you're most ashamed of?
19:38.011 --> 19:40.254
[SPEAKER_02]: That seems like the opposite of what you should do.
19:40.274 --> 19:41.335
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm ashamed.
19:41.315 --> 19:59.948
[SPEAKER_02]: it's like well that's exactly what you should do if you find the fill you find that safe person who is able to hold that has a gospel fluency understands the nature of humanity the nature of the sufficient efficiency of crime and is able to go totally away out that's why there's totally a way to be healed and
19:59.928 --> 20:23.218
[SPEAKER_03]: and to be saying it goes back to what we talked about in early podcast with the five days that place of admission and a two minute attachment like, oh man, and again, I think this is the other part of the healthy shame is, you know, there's been multiple times that there's got to be correction in my life and so my trust and feel he is bringing those other things that
20:23.198 --> 20:31.831
[SPEAKER_03]: And in correction, you know, even earlier this morning I'm talking about about my shame and him confronted me like man, that is not what is true about you.
20:31.871 --> 20:33.033
[SPEAKER_03]: This is what's true about you.
20:34.195 --> 20:41.326
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, just full confession I was telling them just a few moments, I'm like, I'm terrible with these podcasts, man, I do not need to even be here.
20:41.366 --> 20:44.511
[SPEAKER_03]: And he's like, that is not true, that is not true.
20:44.611 --> 20:49.138
[SPEAKER_03]: And so but that's what's straight, we're just starting planning that seed.
20:49.118 --> 20:59.783
[SPEAKER_03]: and then I'll go inward and then that's you will grow and grow and then it will rob me and then it will rob other people of just the blessing of sitting at a table with you man.
20:59.844 --> 21:05.457
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think I could sit here and bodily form, but my heart would be.
21:05.605 --> 21:16.054
[SPEAKER_03]: It wouldn't even be a national, it'd be somewhere off the ocean of Florida somewhere, just sitting in an island by myself, like, man, I don't deserve to be around people.
21:16.074 --> 21:17.376
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't need to deserve this spot.
21:17.396 --> 21:18.256
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, okay.
21:18.276 --> 21:18.577
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
21:18.597 --> 21:19.998
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's what Shane feels like, right?
21:20.018 --> 21:21.539
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like the Hunchback of Notre Dame.
21:21.559 --> 21:23.121
[SPEAKER_02]: I need to go hide in the bell tower.
21:23.181 --> 21:24.302
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm grow test.
21:24.782 --> 21:26.744
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not worthy of public viewing.
21:26.804 --> 21:29.466
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I shouldn't be anywhere who would want to see me.
21:30.127 --> 21:35.612
[SPEAKER_02]: But also, there's a phrase that you guys have used.
21:35.592 --> 21:36.087
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
21:36.368 --> 21:44.215
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, and it's a self-awareness, it's humility, but in some cases you're describing somebody who's becoming a mouse in the corner who shouldn't be a mouse.
21:44.275 --> 21:45.276
[SPEAKER_02]: You're a man, not a mouse.
21:45.376 --> 21:47.238
[SPEAKER_02]: Why are you becoming a mouse in the corner?
21:47.699 --> 21:49.080
[SPEAKER_02]: Other people are a little too big.
21:49.560 --> 21:51.602
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, there's arrogance issues.
21:51.642 --> 21:55.786
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a sense of I'm a, I'm a god-like figure and iron man or whatever.
21:55.886 --> 21:57.608
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm, I'm enhanced humanity.
21:58.409 --> 22:06.156
[SPEAKER_02]: That might require some correction the other way, but just that living in community and having somebody who loves you enough to say,
22:06.136 --> 22:09.780
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're a mouse in the corner in action, not who you are, Todd, you actually had a ton of value.
22:10.241 --> 22:22.255
[SPEAKER_02]: These podcasts, I'm going to call you into that, because the enemies telling you a shame story or your own story is formed in a way that you just see yourself and are ashamed at times of who you are, comparison or whatever's happening.
22:22.295 --> 22:24.297
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, that's really, really helpful.
22:24.878 --> 22:25.498
[SPEAKER_02]: What is the gift?
22:25.599 --> 22:30.304
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'll just walk all the way into my shame, what's going to happen to be long-term in terms of the gift?
22:30.554 --> 22:32.837
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, continue the story.
22:32.997 --> 22:35.200
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't turn the tables on Todd.
22:35.941 --> 22:50.058
[SPEAKER_01]: So part of that story is he went back home after streaming here and I stayed in lots and lots of contact with each other and he had been super successful in ministry.
22:50.278 --> 22:56.646
[SPEAKER_01]: The guy just can grow a group this daunting teaching gift and shepherding gift with people.
22:56.626 --> 23:26.582
[SPEAKER_01]: especially the college age kids there the church he was at literally shares a border with big college down big university and he went back and he cut grass lost his lofty position he cut grass in south Florida heat and we we've talked on the phone there've been days and I say this not to talk about a character defect but but the gift call humility he would call from a
23:26.562 --> 23:28.626
[SPEAKER_01]: tired of this, what is going on here?
23:28.686 --> 23:42.816
[SPEAKER_01]: He was lamenting as we've talked about earlier because lamenting someone who knew that cared about him, that was another flawed human being and so the humility not just to cut grass, but the way he went back and cut grass.
23:42.796 --> 23:45.240
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't go when talk that shame go well.
23:45.280 --> 23:46.161
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just no good.
23:46.262 --> 23:52.752
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to be a I'm just going to man a weed eater for the rest of my life, but in order he'd be like, hey, I'm Todd Wormers.
23:52.812 --> 23:54.495
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm too good to cut grass, wait a minute.
23:54.555 --> 23:56.378
[SPEAKER_01]: I grew this incredible giant minister.
23:56.418 --> 24:05.051
[SPEAKER_01]: He was right in between right size to say I'm not paying a penance and I'm not in prison and I'm not a worm and I'm not a god.
24:05.091 --> 24:07.335
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a guy who is
24:07.315 --> 24:31.939
[SPEAKER_01]: cutting grass on the business end of a weed eater and sometimes I call my good friend we talk about things sometimes I'm lamenting sometimes we're laughing sometimes we you know we I'm just a enamored with how close to alligators he was and we were in four miles recently fairly recently and he promises show me one didn't happen and didn't get to see what we'd laugh about alligators sometimes like well man you're calling I guess you didn't get to eat up today and
24:31.919 --> 24:42.810
[SPEAKER_01]: But that he how he lived out what we would call his recovery, but his relationship with the Lord and in his recovery with Jenny, with other people down there that he loved that loved him.
24:43.231 --> 24:44.252
[SPEAKER_01]: But do still love him.
24:45.273 --> 24:48.716
[SPEAKER_01]: He was cutting that grass right in between.
24:48.777 --> 24:50.198
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm no good.
24:50.238 --> 24:54.863
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just cutting grass now or, hey man, I'm Todd, look at what all I built.
24:54.903 --> 24:56.965
[SPEAKER_01]: He was right in between saying,
24:56.945 --> 25:01.613
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to do this today, and I'm going to continue waiting to see what God has for him tomorrow.
25:01.873 --> 25:08.725
[SPEAKER_01]: And here he sits with humility and wisdom and competence and ability in those kinds of things.
25:08.745 --> 25:16.097
[SPEAKER_01]: And so his story, that he told part of, his story though, it really is a picture and it's okay to segue over this.
25:16.117 --> 25:18.902
[SPEAKER_01]: This man was living in utter isolation.
25:18.882 --> 25:38.861
[SPEAKER_01]: Tom about his story like for all humans couldn't you could not get to Todd Thomas performing and building and teaching and leading like crazy but lived in utter isolation and then he came and he tells the story earlier about when he and I met in treatment and his toxic shame didn't couldn't let me know those kinds of things couldn't look anybody in the eye.
25:39.661 --> 25:40.822
[SPEAKER_01]: I won the other one he wasn't looking at.
25:41.343 --> 25:46.948
[SPEAKER_01]: Just toxic shame just you know as we say and and Mississippi and Georgia eat up eat up
25:46.928 --> 26:06.760
[SPEAKER_01]: you know and and then but moving into that territory of healthy what we would call healthy shame and then moving in this very humble place to say I'm good at this thing I'm not so good at that I'm not serving a penance and I'm not too good for it I'm right size that's so good and that's really what I hope for the audience that people over a journey of dealing honestly with their shame.
26:06.740 --> 26:14.634
[SPEAKER_02]: you would be able to come and do a place where you could say, like John the Baptist, hey, I'm not the Christ, but I am the forerunner of the Christ, and that's kind of a big deal.
26:14.674 --> 26:16.938
[SPEAKER_02]: There's some things that I'm called to do in the world that really matter.
26:17.299 --> 26:25.373
[SPEAKER_02]: I know I'm not a God, and I'm also not a worm, and I can live into my design and not be falsely humble or arrogant.
26:25.353 --> 26:28.679
[SPEAKER_02]: that live right-sized life in in relationship.
26:29.060 --> 26:30.242
[SPEAKER_02]: Totally aware of my need for God.
26:30.302 --> 26:33.689
[SPEAKER_02]: Totally aware of my need for the admin or the other people with their gifts.
26:34.250 --> 26:35.171
[SPEAKER_02]: But also really confident.
26:35.272 --> 26:37.776
[SPEAKER_02]: Say hey, I do have the minus touch in this one area.
26:38.017 --> 26:41.143
[SPEAKER_02]: Like why don't know why God made me fast, but he made me fast.
26:41.183 --> 26:41.944
[SPEAKER_02]: I could run fast.
26:41.924 --> 26:58.937
[SPEAKER_02]: I can speak well, I can counsel well, I'm a mathematician, whatever it is, and when the body of Christ all has that awareness and they're properly fitted together, the church is just a beautiful, diverse place of humility and celebration of, like, and I'm so glad we're on the team together because you compliment me so well.
26:58.917 --> 27:14.597
[SPEAKER_02]: So glad that my wife is so good at things I'm not good at and we get to just celebrate the diverse gifts of what the Spirit has given the church and and we reflect the fullness of Christ but not any one person has all of it and not anybody is thrown away and useless.
27:15.097 --> 27:26.612
[SPEAKER_02]: There's just a beautiful design so that's what we get when we have shame and so well it sounds like bad news to even talk about shame hopefully as you've listened to this episode you go now actually if I walk into that
27:26.592 --> 27:37.787
[SPEAKER_02]: There is a self-awareness in it, a humility and a unity in the community that can be experienced, that is actually essential in you.
27:37.807 --> 27:40.891
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the Reform podcast.
27:40.911 --> 27:50.524
[SPEAKER_00]: If you like what you heard, hit that subscribe button, share it with your friends, leave us a rating, and check out our other resources at theeatenproject.com.
27:51.385 --> 27:52.026
[SPEAKER_00]: Peace!
00:03.237 --> 00:20.267
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Reform and be in private podcasts and bracing the beauty and brokenness in your journey with God.
00:22.542 --> 00:26.908
[SPEAKER_02]: In this episode, we're going to talk about shame, which is a little bit of a wet blanket, probably.
00:26.928 --> 00:37.062
[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody loves shame, and yet, because it's so ever present, because it's something that we deal with so often, and it's so gosh destructive in so many ways.
00:37.102 --> 00:44.653
[SPEAKER_02]: It's critical that we have at theology of it, and we know what to do with it, and we know how it's impacting relationship and others, and so let's start with you, Todd.
00:45.073 --> 00:47.757
[SPEAKER_02]: What are we experiencing when do we experience shame?
00:48.209 --> 01:06.698
[SPEAKER_03]: The shame is that the feeling God gave us to allow us to know our dependence in our humanity, like my limitations, you know, we see that so well in the garden, you know, he's just showing them over and over again their neediness for him and that's all what really healthy shame is.
01:06.738 --> 01:12.107
[SPEAKER_03]: I think when you talk about shame, shame is such a hard one to talk and
01:12.087 --> 01:18.135
[SPEAKER_03]: because you got healthy shame, got toxic shame, got shame, so it's like the nuances of shame.
01:19.197 --> 01:25.766
[SPEAKER_03]: But it really is the thing that keeps us most in a place of dependence on God and other people.
01:26.006 --> 01:31.193
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I'm very, very, I'm a human, so I have super, super limitations.
01:31.173 --> 01:34.699
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think, you know, we don't want to have limitations.
01:34.819 --> 01:42.892
[SPEAKER_03]: We want to, you know, I don't know if it's, I don't know who said it, but, you know, the acronym for shame is should have already mastered everything.
01:42.912 --> 01:51.786
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, I go in life, not looking at how God created me, and wired me in my giftedness, but I look at man, these are the places I'm lacking.
01:51.826 --> 01:55.792
[SPEAKER_03]: So I better go spend a lot of time, a lot of energy, all the place I'm lacking.
01:55.852 --> 01:59.037
[SPEAKER_03]: But when I do that, I don't give credit and give,
01:59.017 --> 02:28.399
[SPEAKER_03]: Credence to my gifts, and so I forced sake the gifts God's given me because I don't want to be Needy and dependent on other people so I got to work really hard And if you're if anyone that knows me well, I am a terrible admin person I am horrible admin, but I early in my journey as a as a pastor I spent a lot of time trying to be a better admin person and I forced up the gifts that God had given to me and now I'm like oh man
02:28.379 --> 02:33.471
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't let someone else that's really good at administration do administration.
02:33.512 --> 02:41.511
[SPEAKER_03]: Let me do what God's called me to do, and so there's been such a freedom to pay attention to my shame or around where God has limited to be.
02:41.592 --> 02:46.041
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, let's have a let's take the parsing of of healthy shame, shame, and talks of shame.
02:46.061 --> 02:48.305
[SPEAKER_02]: Just so people can hear the nuance of that.
02:48.325 --> 02:52.954
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm hearing healthy shame, sounds like self-awareness, is that is that helpful?
02:53.535 --> 02:56.361
[SPEAKER_02]: Someone here's healthy shame, I mean, I've never even heard those two words put together.
02:57.222 --> 02:59.387
[SPEAKER_02]: When it's healthy, is it, is it a kind of self-awareness?
02:59.407 --> 03:03.374
[SPEAKER_02]: I know where I'm good, where I'm not, I just know my limits, I know my strengths.
03:03.394 --> 03:03.735
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
03:03.715 --> 03:15.308
[SPEAKER_03]: I would say so it's like a true recognition who I am how God made me it would be healthy shame, toxic shame is and how I don't want to be made and I'm going to make sure I'm not made that way.
03:15.809 --> 03:18.838
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's how I would new on to it.
03:19.156 --> 03:29.474
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so toxic shame is a is reactionary or it is is it hiding is it self-hate like what what is what does it feel like how will someone like in their own chess go?
03:29.894 --> 03:32.158
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so awareness is one thing toxic shame.
03:32.198 --> 03:35.464
[SPEAKER_02]: How will I know when I've dropped into something that's toxic?
03:35.764 --> 03:37.868
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there are two phrases that go to toxic shame.
03:37.888 --> 03:41.434
[SPEAKER_01]: Dude one is despising my humaneness
03:41.515 --> 03:45.901
[SPEAKER_01]: And the other is how I label or define myself when I have feelings.
03:46.762 --> 03:48.584
[SPEAKER_01]: And feelings are of language of vulnerability.
03:48.844 --> 03:54.031
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I'm a vulnerable human, which means I'm in need, I label myself a certain way.
03:54.291 --> 04:02.442
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm stupid, I'm ugly, I'm no good, I'm in the way, I'm in disruption, all those labeling ways, which tend to come from our stories.
04:02.502 --> 04:09.531
[SPEAKER_01]: What were we told verbal explicitly or implicitly was true about me when I failed at something?
04:09.511 --> 04:11.174
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Toxic Shame and Toxic Example.
04:11.494 --> 04:13.638
[SPEAKER_01]: He and I share that quality around administration.
04:14.739 --> 04:23.093
[SPEAKER_01]: Toxic Shame would be, I'm no good, I'm stupid, I'm disorganized, I'm kind of an idiot, because I can't keep a schedule straight.
04:23.173 --> 04:24.515
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be the Toxic Form.
04:25.036 --> 04:32.087
[SPEAKER_01]: But what Toad described was, he had, and I will credit our friend Jeff Schulte with this phrase, theology.
04:32.268 --> 04:35.653
[SPEAKER_01]: He said,
04:35.633 --> 04:38.018
[SPEAKER_01]: be the word unashamedness of humanness.
04:38.759 --> 04:48.419
[SPEAKER_01]: I got unashamed Jesus, Philippians 2, 5, 11, the conodic, the passage of canosis that we call it, theologically, the emptying out of Christ.
04:48.520 --> 04:55.093
[SPEAKER_01]: He says, He did not consider His being God something to be grasped or exploited.
04:55.073 --> 04:58.117
[SPEAKER_01]: And so Jesus was unashamed of His humanness.
04:58.858 --> 05:01.262
[SPEAKER_01]: So Jesus wasn't shame-filled, like we would say.
05:01.322 --> 05:03.024
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's a such a beautiful example.
05:03.044 --> 05:05.307
[SPEAKER_01]: You could just unpack that passage for 100 years.
05:06.128 --> 05:07.751
[SPEAKER_01]: All eternity, actually.
05:07.811 --> 05:14.520
[SPEAKER_01]: But that first phrase in there is a great description of how Jesus lived out being unashamed of being a human.
05:14.600 --> 05:17.604
[SPEAKER_01]: He came and said, yes, I'm fully God.
05:17.945 --> 05:19.006
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm fully human.
05:19.147 --> 05:23.713
[SPEAKER_01]: And I carry no shame around taking on the limitations of a human being.
05:23.693 --> 05:51.979
[SPEAKER_02]: yeah so with Jesus is at the well he's sitting down because he's tired because he's been out walking all day long he's like oh yeah when I'm tired I can sit down I can't keep going when the crowds are coming and literally lining up with basically a hospital ward of he's healing every single person in the city just imagine the exhaustion of one after another after another he's the eardock with the unending waiting room and he's like I'm gonna sneak off I'm getting out of town I'm waking up early
05:51.959 --> 05:54.281
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't keep doing this.
05:54.482 --> 05:59.287
[SPEAKER_01]: And Tachik Shame says, I am somehow deficient because that's true.
06:00.087 --> 06:02.730
[SPEAKER_01]: And Jesus, I'm not deficient because that's true.
06:02.830 --> 06:05.493
[SPEAKER_01]: And Todd's example, Todd was saying, I'm deficient.
06:05.573 --> 06:14.242
[SPEAKER_01]: Todd just said, because really what humility is, this gift we're talking about with healthy shame is I tell the truth about my giftedness.
06:14.903 --> 06:16.344
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really good at these things.
06:17.085 --> 06:21.730
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got his maybe in such a way, this is a level of competence and expertise for me.
06:21.912 --> 06:24.134
[SPEAKER_01]: and I am terrible at these things.
06:24.175 --> 06:25.216
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just not good at that.
06:25.836 --> 06:30.101
[SPEAKER_01]: So, healthy shame that stands between those two poles says, I'm made in a certain way.
06:30.161 --> 06:34.566
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't give me an excuse to settle in and go, oh well.
06:34.966 --> 06:44.637
[SPEAKER_01]: But what it says is, I need to tell the truth about what I'm good at, how God's made me to flourish, and what I'm not so good at, what other people may have get to listen, I tell the truth about both of those.
06:44.717 --> 06:49.843
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you bring those two things together, it's an unshamadness of my limitation.
06:49.823 --> 06:52.809
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not a deficiency because God knows what He's doing.
06:52.829 --> 06:54.513
[SPEAKER_01]: We create every human.
06:54.814 --> 06:55.575
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
06:55.736 --> 06:58.722
[SPEAKER_01]: And Jesus, like I said earlier, Jesus was not saying.
06:58.862 --> 07:01.929
[SPEAKER_01]: And therefore, I am these terrible things.
07:02.009 --> 07:04.735
[SPEAKER_01]: The toxic shame says, I'm defined in a certain way.
07:04.895 --> 07:08.423
[SPEAKER_01]: And I despise myself because I can't do everything.
07:08.403 --> 07:09.244
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's so helpful.
07:09.625 --> 07:34.562
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so there's the self-awareness of who I am, and then maybe there's some contextual awareness of, hey, it's just been a really busy season, and I'm tired, or I've got a medical limitation that has become a part of why I can't travel as much as I used to, or, you know, a friend of mine just recently had an injury to it, to his leg, wasn't sleeping well, some pain and discomfort that was a limiting
07:34.542 --> 07:38.488
[SPEAKER_02]: And something I guess you could be ashamed of, like I should be able to do everything I normally do.
07:38.808 --> 07:43.234
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, well, right now, in this particular circumstance, because of this particular injury, you can't.
07:44.196 --> 07:54.931
[SPEAKER_02]: And so some of that self-awareness, healthy shame, would be like, oh, at this time, I have a limitation that is different than at other times, but it's keeping me from being able to do what I could do.
07:55.551 --> 07:57.755
[SPEAKER_02]: But you see, I guess that gives us opportunity.
07:57.775 --> 07:58.636
[SPEAKER_02]: We could shame ourselves.
07:58.916 --> 08:01.680
[SPEAKER_02]: I should be able to just motor through and do what I always do.
08:01.660 --> 08:06.048
[SPEAKER_02]: as we get older, where aging and our body do what it used to do.
08:06.549 --> 08:10.737
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a growing awareness of, I'm limited, and I'm not 21 anymore.
08:11.960 --> 08:15.126
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's, yeah, that's a helpful way of thinking about it.
08:15.266 --> 08:24.664
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about what you mentioned the impairments a little bit, we're talking about toxic shame a little bit, but let's say somebody's got shame, but they won't deal honestly with it.
08:24.644 --> 08:26.306
[SPEAKER_02]: What's happening?
08:26.326 --> 08:27.407
[SPEAKER_02]: What is that toxic shame?
08:27.447 --> 08:28.208
[SPEAKER_02]: How does it form?
08:28.368 --> 08:30.490
[SPEAKER_02]: What happens to a human being?
08:30.830 --> 08:32.852
[SPEAKER_02]: It's dealing with a ton of shame in a healthy way.
08:33.893 --> 08:35.856
[SPEAKER_03]: Limits are humility.
08:35.896 --> 08:37.217
[SPEAKER_03]: Limits are humanity.
08:37.517 --> 08:37.918
[SPEAKER_03]: I love it.
08:38.418 --> 08:42.442
[SPEAKER_03]: The guru of shame is Brad Shaw, John Brad Shaw.
08:42.462 --> 08:45.445
[SPEAKER_03]: He wrote a great book back in the 80s.
08:45.505 --> 08:47.547
[SPEAKER_03]: This is what he says about toxic shame.
08:47.828 --> 08:50.010
[SPEAKER_03]: When I read this, I was like, man, that is.
08:49.990 --> 08:50.971
[SPEAKER_03]: So brilliant.
08:51.092 --> 08:56.059
[SPEAKER_03]: He says, toxic shame is the motivator behind all of our toxic behaviors.
08:56.700 --> 09:07.476
[SPEAKER_03]: The compulsions, our codependency, our addictions, and the drive to super-achieve that breaks down the family and destroys personal lives.
09:07.456 --> 09:15.163
[SPEAKER_03]: It limits the ability of self-esteem and causes anxiety to oppression and limits our ability to connect a relationship.
09:15.283 --> 09:17.025
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that's what Tauquic Shamed does.
09:17.105 --> 09:24.571
[SPEAKER_03]: There's just this driving force that's moving me out of relationship with myself, out of relationship with God, out of relationships with other people.
09:25.032 --> 09:30.517
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's what then brings in the anxiety, the control, the addiction, because I'm not made that way.
09:31.117 --> 09:35.421
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we're made to be human, and we're yet...
09:35.401 --> 09:38.265
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, our toxic shame is I don't want to be human.
09:38.706 --> 10:03.720
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be something other than I am And so when I become something other than I am then I then I can't actually do relationships with myself God or other people Yeah, as you're saying that I thought I'm almost imagining shame is like Some built that I'm trying to rub off There's something on me that's wrong with me, but if I'll achieve if I could prove that wrong I could almost overcome that thing and maybe see families that are characterized by shame and if we could
10:03.700 --> 10:08.664
[SPEAKER_02]: if we could have an accomplished child who went out and did something great in the world.
10:08.705 --> 10:26.460
[SPEAKER_02]: And if we could accomplish some things in life, maybe we could get the shame off of our family and that feeling of inadequacy or like we're not enough or we're not as good as some other families down the street and so there's just this, I'm hearing as you're saying, like this current that's pushing against us but we've got to fight against it to overcome.
10:27.081 --> 10:33.707
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about the way that shame is experienced, maybe even in our families as we grew up.
10:33.687 --> 10:42.360
[SPEAKER_02]: his book, The Soul of Shame, talks about how, you know, shame to people, shame people, and that 80% of shame is caught non-verbal.
10:42.761 --> 10:55.080
[SPEAKER_02]: So we've probably all been shamed where someone literally says, you discussed me here, are you just a pitiful excuse for filling the blank baseball player or son or whatever that would be.
10:55.100 --> 10:57.484
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's verbal shaming within, there's just the
10:57.464 --> 11:05.653
[SPEAKER_02]: You drop the fly ball in the outfield, you look up in the stands and your dad's shaking his head and it's just visibly obvious that he's ashamed that you didn't make the play, right?
11:06.214 --> 11:08.617
[SPEAKER_02]: How, what's happening in families around shame?
11:08.637 --> 11:15.425
[SPEAKER_02]: How are we, how are we learning to inhabit how we should hate our humanity, to surprise our humanity, to use your language?
11:16.746 --> 11:19.990
[SPEAKER_02]: What's happening in that formation along the way?
11:20.010 --> 11:24.535
[SPEAKER_01]: You know that limitation is scary.
11:24.515 --> 11:42.557
[SPEAKER_01]: My son's limitations are scary to me as a dad because what I want for him is to be great at everything where he will never have to struggle Impossible and so if parents as parents and in families if parents aren't paying attention to how scary it is
11:42.537 --> 11:57.390
[SPEAKER_01]: For my child, my daughter, my son, to have limitation, which means you're going to struggle, which means you're going to fail, which means you're going to do things that highlight their humaneness if a parent can tell the truth about both ends of that.
11:57.792 --> 11:59.054
[SPEAKER_01]: content like my parents.
12:00.116 --> 12:03.001
[SPEAKER_01]: I never had any aspirations being a mathematician.
12:03.582 --> 12:12.898
[SPEAKER_01]: If I had, I knew a parents to go, hey, man, I love you like crazy mathematics might not be where you're strongest.
12:12.878 --> 12:31.832
[SPEAKER_01]: and that you know it's for parents to be able to tell the truth to their children speaking the truth and love literally to say let me tell you how I experience you how God has made you where you're gifted and where you aren't and I love you and I'm in your corner and man if you want to tackle mathematics how can I help you do it I just want you to know
12:31.812 --> 12:50.985
[SPEAKER_01]: That you're made in a certain way and my experience with you is that this is not something you're really good at But you're I want you to be really good at being how God made you and so if we parents if parents And families could camp out on just telling the truth around how that child is made
12:51.151 --> 13:02.494
[SPEAKER_01]: And when the child ultimately fails, whether something they're good at or not good at necessarily, when the message is, you still have great value to me and great value to God.
13:02.693 --> 13:11.922
[SPEAKER_01]: and there's some mechanics around how can help you improve some of you may have messed up, but ultimately the foundation underneath that is, I love you and I love how you're made.
13:12.623 --> 13:15.506
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that you are and I love how you are.
13:16.226 --> 13:28.819
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's put all those things together as you continue developing through your life and if families did that, I think there would be a lot less territorial in the toxicity of that, a very short example of that.
13:28.799 --> 13:51.432
[SPEAKER_01]: I, at the very beginning of my church staff life, I was in charge of pastoral care right just across the way and forth and I've made a visit to a man who oversaw a huge ministry counseling support group ministry in a church in another state and I went spent a day who's very gracious to host me for a day, this is way by early nineties.
13:51.412 --> 14:07.090
[SPEAKER_01]: And I asked him, he said they had, at the time, they had 36,000 contacts per year, and that just means groups and individual sessions and support groups and all that, that they had about 3,000 a month if this huge church.
14:07.651 --> 14:13.538
[SPEAKER_01]: And I asked him, I said, what would you say is the most common presentation of people walk through the door needing help?
14:13.518 --> 14:16.521
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it might say trauma, anxiety depression.
14:16.862 --> 14:19.585
[SPEAKER_01]: Without hesitation, he said, I'll take exactly what it is.
14:20.266 --> 14:26.453
[SPEAKER_01]: It's people attempting to do something in service that's outside their area of giftedness.
14:27.234 --> 14:35.543
[SPEAKER_01]: And they try and try and try and it runs them into the ground because they cannot admit do their own story or whatever it might be, they cannot admit limitation.
14:35.725 --> 14:43.216
[SPEAKER_02]: They're trying to be good at something that they're not gifted to do for whatever reason they've decided I should already be sure they've already mastered this.
14:43.757 --> 14:47.442
[SPEAKER_02]: I have it, but I'm not going to give up on it I'm going to keep pounding against the wall.
14:47.522 --> 14:48.424
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes to do it.
14:48.444 --> 14:48.604
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
14:48.984 --> 14:49.225
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
14:49.245 --> 14:49.445
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
14:49.705 --> 14:50.567
[SPEAKER_02]: That's it's sad.
14:50.687 --> 14:58.999
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean as you talk about a good parent I was getting the feeling as you were talking about a safe family to say hey we're going to help you discover your gifts We're going to celebrate you
14:58.979 --> 15:09.591
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to love you, whether you do, you don't, we're going to love you, whether you're a mathematician or a counselor, we're just going to walk with you to discover your limits and your gifts and we're going to fan those into flame.
15:09.611 --> 15:20.464
[SPEAKER_02]: I just said, man, that growing up in the family you were describing, it's like I would have a lot of courage to even go and try things because it's like I don't have to be perfect the first time and I don't have to be good at everything.
15:20.444 --> 15:24.210
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's almost a process of elimination, a process of discovery.
15:24.251 --> 15:34.047
[SPEAKER_02]: It's okay if I discover something that I'm not good at, that doesn't come to define me and I don't have to then camp out on that and work on it to make sure it becomes a competency.
15:34.929 --> 15:38.014
[SPEAKER_02]: Pressure is off a little bit and I can settle in and let somebody else be good at that.
15:37.994 --> 15:41.880
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what you mentioned, dude, about like, it got something on me, I can't get off.
15:42.000 --> 15:48.570
[SPEAKER_01]: The failure of that type thing happening is how that gets on the child who grows up to be a grown man or grown woman.
15:48.930 --> 15:51.054
[SPEAKER_01]: You go like, oh, this is stuck to me.
15:51.134 --> 15:56.201
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't get it off, and the lack of that territory of truth telling, redemptive truth telling.
15:56.582 --> 15:58.585
[SPEAKER_01]: That causes us to stick to the skin.
15:58.565 --> 15:58.886
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
15:59.147 --> 15:59.669
[SPEAKER_02]: That's so good.
15:59.930 --> 16:00.873
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about the healthy.
16:00.893 --> 16:04.445
[SPEAKER_02]: What do I need if I'm processing health a shame in a healthy way?
16:05.187 --> 16:06.371
[SPEAKER_02]: What's the need that I have?
16:06.412 --> 16:08.338
[SPEAKER_02]: What's the gift that I received if I'll deal honestly?
16:09.533 --> 16:17.403
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think the need is for someone to be able to see me, and then are tuned to me, and then call out what they see in me.
16:17.423 --> 16:21.468
[SPEAKER_03]: That's one of the greatest gifts, you know, I joke with Phil.
16:21.728 --> 16:24.051
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm his age when I first met him.
16:24.131 --> 16:29.678
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm like, man, if I can become like Phil, like, old commercial, be like Mike, it's like, man, my motto is be like Phil.
16:29.998 --> 16:31.340
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I want to be like Phil.
16:31.820 --> 16:33.202
[SPEAKER_03]: I wish I had a Gatorade for Phil.
16:33.242 --> 16:34.544
[SPEAKER_02]: I wish I had a shoot, I hope he could go.
16:34.604 --> 16:35.905
[SPEAKER_02]: What would be the logo on the show?
16:35.925 --> 16:36.486
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know about that.
16:36.466 --> 16:37.688
[SPEAKER_03]: There's glasses.
16:37.908 --> 16:40.332
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, there's the glasses.
16:40.352 --> 16:41.113
[SPEAKER_03]: I'd buy those shoes.
16:41.133 --> 16:41.915
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a shoe guy.
16:41.935 --> 16:48.626
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think you have a pair of airfields I'd buy them for sure That is literally a first airfield.
16:48.866 --> 16:50.428
[SPEAKER_01]: I got a big old vertical man.
16:51.009 --> 16:52.291
[SPEAKER_03]: You didn't get your hops.
16:53.253 --> 16:53.293
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh
16:53.273 --> 16:55.098
[SPEAKER_03]: But that's the part for me.
16:55.218 --> 16:59.651
[SPEAKER_03]: I, you know, when I met Phil, I was covered with toxic shame.
16:59.811 --> 17:02.338
[SPEAKER_03]: I couldn't even look him in the eyeballs.
17:02.398 --> 17:03.962
[SPEAKER_03]: Literally could not look him in the face.
17:04.063 --> 17:09.257
[SPEAKER_03]: And he saw me and seen me attuned to me and then began to draw out.
17:09.237 --> 17:23.608
[SPEAKER_03]: There's places of giftedness that, you know, I just did not see myself, and I wouldn't be at this table on this podcast without fill, calling me out and seeing things in me, I could not see myself.
17:24.189 --> 17:29.440
[SPEAKER_03]: And because I was just driven by that toxic shame, like,
17:29.420 --> 17:51.968
[SPEAKER_03]: I, you know, not that I didn't want to be a counselor of, you know, a shepherd, like, all that was in me, but it was like, man, when I looked at my peers around me, and I think this was what Paul was saying in Galatians five, he's like, I live with a lot of conceit and envy of other people without being able to delight and what got it called me to do.
17:51.948 --> 18:12.288
[SPEAKER_03]: Because of that he started and into me and to me and to me and to me and see me and call me out And so we've got to surround ourselves with men that will see us and then call that that got us put in us out of us Yeah, yeah, I went back to grad school because of Phil Herndon and Jenny my wife for sure I did describing that.
18:12.348 --> 18:20.436
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm almost and we talk about Eden as the relational habitat we were designed for and the features of Eden but it's almost like
18:20.585 --> 18:23.311
[SPEAKER_02]: feel for you, it allows you to be naked and unshamed.
18:23.792 --> 18:24.333
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, 100%.
18:24.353 --> 18:26.297
[SPEAKER_02]: It'll be like, come, let's come back into Eden.
18:26.637 --> 18:30.525
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll see you exactly as you are, but you shouldn't be ashamed of who you are.
18:30.645 --> 18:42.289
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, in a lot of the work of Christ, because you're deeply love, because he's a tone for every way in which you've sinned, and because you've been reconciled to him and you're a child, you have a spirit, you matter, your life is going to matter.
18:42.269 --> 18:44.711
[SPEAKER_02]: You're going to live with him for eternity or a part of our community.
18:44.971 --> 18:51.417
[SPEAKER_02]: So I thought, oh, you can be totally seen in whatever you were going through, your addiction, all the stuff that was true, and be on a shamed.
18:51.437 --> 18:52.478
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I love you.
18:52.498 --> 19:04.869
[SPEAKER_02]: I see you and I'm not going to leave, you know, which is really coming back to, back to Eden, back to this place that we were designed for to not be ashamed of our humans, not to be ashamed of where we're at.
19:04.889 --> 19:12.276
[SPEAKER_02]: And so now what a gift that he gave you and that you're not giving to others as you're
19:12.256 --> 19:15.681
[SPEAKER_02]: about the stuff, whatever it is, without being rejected.
19:16.121 --> 19:18.524
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, our heard it said that shame dies in the light.
19:19.546 --> 19:27.296
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, you see people who are ashamed, they, oh, I could never tell anybody the thing, the thing that I'm so deeply ashamed of, and the enemies like, oh, that's cool.
19:27.316 --> 19:27.997
[SPEAKER_02]: Keep it that way.
19:28.378 --> 19:30.761
[SPEAKER_02]: And let's continue to keep you enslaved to it.
19:31.201 --> 19:31.882
[SPEAKER_02]: And in the dark.
19:32.263 --> 19:37.770
[SPEAKER_02]: And so counterintuitive, to be like, why would you ever tell someone the thing that you're most ashamed of?
19:38.011 --> 19:40.254
[SPEAKER_02]: That seems like the opposite of what you should do.
19:40.274 --> 19:41.335
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm ashamed.
19:41.315 --> 19:59.948
[SPEAKER_02]: it's like well that's exactly what you should do if you find the fill you find that safe person who is able to hold that has a gospel fluency understands the nature of humanity the nature of the sufficient efficiency of crime and is able to go totally away out that's why there's totally a way to be healed and
19:59.928 --> 20:23.218
[SPEAKER_03]: and to be saying it goes back to what we talked about in early podcast with the five days that place of admission and a two minute attachment like, oh man, and again, I think this is the other part of the healthy shame is, you know, there's been multiple times that there's got to be correction in my life and so my trust and feel he is bringing those other things that
20:23.198 --> 20:31.831
[SPEAKER_03]: And in correction, you know, even earlier this morning I'm talking about about my shame and him confronted me like man, that is not what is true about you.
20:31.871 --> 20:33.033
[SPEAKER_03]: This is what's true about you.
20:34.195 --> 20:41.326
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, just full confession I was telling them just a few moments, I'm like, I'm terrible with these podcasts, man, I do not need to even be here.
20:41.366 --> 20:44.511
[SPEAKER_03]: And he's like, that is not true, that is not true.
20:44.611 --> 20:49.138
[SPEAKER_03]: And so but that's what's straight, we're just starting planning that seed.
20:49.118 --> 20:59.783
[SPEAKER_03]: and then I'll go inward and then that's you will grow and grow and then it will rob me and then it will rob other people of just the blessing of sitting at a table with you man.
20:59.844 --> 21:05.457
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think I could sit here and bodily form, but my heart would be.
21:05.605 --> 21:16.054
[SPEAKER_03]: It wouldn't even be a national, it'd be somewhere off the ocean of Florida somewhere, just sitting in an island by myself, like, man, I don't deserve to be around people.
21:16.074 --> 21:17.376
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't need to deserve this spot.
21:17.396 --> 21:18.256
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, okay.
21:18.276 --> 21:18.577
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
21:18.597 --> 21:19.998
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's what Shane feels like, right?
21:20.018 --> 21:21.539
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like the Hunchback of Notre Dame.
21:21.559 --> 21:23.121
[SPEAKER_02]: I need to go hide in the bell tower.
21:23.181 --> 21:24.302
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm grow test.
21:24.782 --> 21:26.744
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not worthy of public viewing.
21:26.804 --> 21:29.466
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I shouldn't be anywhere who would want to see me.
21:30.127 --> 21:35.612
[SPEAKER_02]: But also, there's a phrase that you guys have used.
21:35.592 --> 21:36.087
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
21:36.368 --> 21:44.215
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, and it's a self-awareness, it's humility, but in some cases you're describing somebody who's becoming a mouse in the corner who shouldn't be a mouse.
21:44.275 --> 21:45.276
[SPEAKER_02]: You're a man, not a mouse.
21:45.376 --> 21:47.238
[SPEAKER_02]: Why are you becoming a mouse in the corner?
21:47.699 --> 21:49.080
[SPEAKER_02]: Other people are a little too big.
21:49.560 --> 21:51.602
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, there's arrogance issues.
21:51.642 --> 21:55.786
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a sense of I'm a, I'm a god-like figure and iron man or whatever.
21:55.886 --> 21:57.608
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm, I'm enhanced humanity.
21:58.409 --> 22:06.156
[SPEAKER_02]: That might require some correction the other way, but just that living in community and having somebody who loves you enough to say,
22:06.136 --> 22:09.780
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're a mouse in the corner in action, not who you are, Todd, you actually had a ton of value.
22:10.241 --> 22:22.255
[SPEAKER_02]: These podcasts, I'm going to call you into that, because the enemies telling you a shame story or your own story is formed in a way that you just see yourself and are ashamed at times of who you are, comparison or whatever's happening.
22:22.295 --> 22:24.297
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, that's really, really helpful.
22:24.878 --> 22:25.498
[SPEAKER_02]: What is the gift?
22:25.599 --> 22:30.304
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'll just walk all the way into my shame, what's going to happen to be long-term in terms of the gift?
22:30.554 --> 22:32.837
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, continue the story.
22:32.997 --> 22:35.200
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't turn the tables on Todd.
22:35.941 --> 22:50.058
[SPEAKER_01]: So part of that story is he went back home after streaming here and I stayed in lots and lots of contact with each other and he had been super successful in ministry.
22:50.278 --> 22:56.646
[SPEAKER_01]: The guy just can grow a group this daunting teaching gift and shepherding gift with people.
22:56.626 --> 23:26.582
[SPEAKER_01]: especially the college age kids there the church he was at literally shares a border with big college down big university and he went back and he cut grass lost his lofty position he cut grass in south Florida heat and we we've talked on the phone there've been days and I say this not to talk about a character defect but but the gift call humility he would call from a
23:26.562 --> 23:28.626
[SPEAKER_01]: tired of this, what is going on here?
23:28.686 --> 23:42.816
[SPEAKER_01]: He was lamenting as we've talked about earlier because lamenting someone who knew that cared about him, that was another flawed human being and so the humility not just to cut grass, but the way he went back and cut grass.
23:42.796 --> 23:45.240
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't go when talk that shame go well.
23:45.280 --> 23:46.161
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just no good.
23:46.262 --> 23:52.752
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to be a I'm just going to man a weed eater for the rest of my life, but in order he'd be like, hey, I'm Todd Wormers.
23:52.812 --> 23:54.495
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm too good to cut grass, wait a minute.
23:54.555 --> 23:56.378
[SPEAKER_01]: I grew this incredible giant minister.
23:56.418 --> 24:05.051
[SPEAKER_01]: He was right in between right size to say I'm not paying a penance and I'm not in prison and I'm not a worm and I'm not a god.
24:05.091 --> 24:07.335
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a guy who is
24:07.315 --> 24:31.939
[SPEAKER_01]: cutting grass on the business end of a weed eater and sometimes I call my good friend we talk about things sometimes I'm lamenting sometimes we're laughing sometimes we you know we I'm just a enamored with how close to alligators he was and we were in four miles recently fairly recently and he promises show me one didn't happen and didn't get to see what we'd laugh about alligators sometimes like well man you're calling I guess you didn't get to eat up today and
24:31.919 --> 24:42.810
[SPEAKER_01]: But that he how he lived out what we would call his recovery, but his relationship with the Lord and in his recovery with Jenny, with other people down there that he loved that loved him.
24:43.231 --> 24:44.252
[SPEAKER_01]: But do still love him.
24:45.273 --> 24:48.716
[SPEAKER_01]: He was cutting that grass right in between.
24:48.777 --> 24:50.198
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm no good.
24:50.238 --> 24:54.863
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just cutting grass now or, hey man, I'm Todd, look at what all I built.
24:54.903 --> 24:56.965
[SPEAKER_01]: He was right in between saying,
24:56.945 --> 25:01.613
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to do this today, and I'm going to continue waiting to see what God has for him tomorrow.
25:01.873 --> 25:08.725
[SPEAKER_01]: And here he sits with humility and wisdom and competence and ability in those kinds of things.
25:08.745 --> 25:16.097
[SPEAKER_01]: And so his story, that he told part of, his story though, it really is a picture and it's okay to segue over this.
25:16.117 --> 25:18.902
[SPEAKER_01]: This man was living in utter isolation.
25:18.882 --> 25:38.861
[SPEAKER_01]: Tom about his story like for all humans couldn't you could not get to Todd Thomas performing and building and teaching and leading like crazy but lived in utter isolation and then he came and he tells the story earlier about when he and I met in treatment and his toxic shame didn't couldn't let me know those kinds of things couldn't look anybody in the eye.
25:39.661 --> 25:40.822
[SPEAKER_01]: I won the other one he wasn't looking at.
25:41.343 --> 25:46.948
[SPEAKER_01]: Just toxic shame just you know as we say and and Mississippi and Georgia eat up eat up
25:46.928 --> 26:06.760
[SPEAKER_01]: you know and and then but moving into that territory of healthy what we would call healthy shame and then moving in this very humble place to say I'm good at this thing I'm not so good at that I'm not serving a penance and I'm not too good for it I'm right size that's so good and that's really what I hope for the audience that people over a journey of dealing honestly with their shame.
26:06.740 --> 26:14.634
[SPEAKER_02]: you would be able to come and do a place where you could say, like John the Baptist, hey, I'm not the Christ, but I am the forerunner of the Christ, and that's kind of a big deal.
26:14.674 --> 26:16.938
[SPEAKER_02]: There's some things that I'm called to do in the world that really matter.
26:17.299 --> 26:25.373
[SPEAKER_02]: I know I'm not a God, and I'm also not a worm, and I can live into my design and not be falsely humble or arrogant.
26:25.353 --> 26:28.679
[SPEAKER_02]: that live right-sized life in in relationship.
26:29.060 --> 26:30.242
[SPEAKER_02]: Totally aware of my need for God.
26:30.302 --> 26:33.689
[SPEAKER_02]: Totally aware of my need for the admin or the other people with their gifts.
26:34.250 --> 26:35.171
[SPEAKER_02]: But also really confident.
26:35.272 --> 26:37.776
[SPEAKER_02]: Say hey, I do have the minus touch in this one area.
26:38.017 --> 26:41.143
[SPEAKER_02]: Like why don't know why God made me fast, but he made me fast.
26:41.183 --> 26:41.944
[SPEAKER_02]: I could run fast.
26:41.924 --> 26:58.937
[SPEAKER_02]: I can speak well, I can counsel well, I'm a mathematician, whatever it is, and when the body of Christ all has that awareness and they're properly fitted together, the church is just a beautiful, diverse place of humility and celebration of, like, and I'm so glad we're on the team together because you compliment me so well.
26:58.917 --> 27:14.597
[SPEAKER_02]: So glad that my wife is so good at things I'm not good at and we get to just celebrate the diverse gifts of what the Spirit has given the church and and we reflect the fullness of Christ but not any one person has all of it and not anybody is thrown away and useless.
27:15.097 --> 27:26.612
[SPEAKER_02]: There's just a beautiful design so that's what we get when we have shame and so well it sounds like bad news to even talk about shame hopefully as you've listened to this episode you go now actually if I walk into that
27:26.592 --> 27:37.787
[SPEAKER_02]: There is a self-awareness in it, a humility and a unity in the community that can be experienced, that is actually essential in you.
27:37.807 --> 27:40.891
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the Reform podcast.
27:40.911 --> 27:50.524
[SPEAKER_00]: If you like what you heard, hit that subscribe button, share it with your friends, leave us a rating, and check out our other resources at theeatenproject.com.
27:51.385 --> 27:52.026
[SPEAKER_00]: Peace!
