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[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to Reform, and be in private podcasts.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Embracing the beauty and brokenness in your journey with God.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Enjoy this episode.
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[SPEAKER_01]: really excited to keep this conversation going with you guys.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's just so many bad ideas about emotion.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we're trying to clear that up, get clear, and even get folks to the place where they can actually identify what's going on in their own heart so that they can show up in a relationship, have more connection with God, self and others.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so in this episode we want to talk about hurt.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And we might start with you Phil.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What am I?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What am I feeling as a human being when I feel hurt?
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is a really like literally illustrative one by the very name, like everyone has an idea.
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[SPEAKER_00]: A child even without verbal skill yet knows what hurt is.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Something is painful.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's hurt.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so the talk about hurt in the relational world is like I've received woundedness.
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[SPEAKER_00]: around me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's wounding to me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think you let me tell a quick story here Duke around hurt and harm.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a good place to start.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The shorter version, the story is, when my wife was pregnant with our son, we went and had a sonogram and the sonogram that revealed the ginder and the sonogram text said, you know, it's a boy and I was really ecstatic.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so Sheila, my wife did not seem as excited as I was.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I asked her and she said, well,
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[SPEAKER_00]: She's writing out played baseball and she said, I'm honestly, she goes, I'm afraid that when this boy is born, if he loves books or drama or music or something other than sports or baseball, that you'll reject him.
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[SPEAKER_00]: like that hurt so bad.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But it was such a loving statement.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was a wound, but it wasn't harmful.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a matter of fact.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It really altered the way I probably would have parented him.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And he did end up playing baseball over through high school.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was a great player.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But that's almost irrelevant to this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But this feeling called hurt is I'm in a relationship and I've received a wound.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the writer of Proverbs talks about the wounds of a friend.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The wounds of a friend are a loving wife, in this case.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They're really valuable.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So we need to make sure we're talking about emotional hurt.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Doesn't necessarily mean harm, though often it does.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But a hurt just simply says, I'm in relationship with someone and I've received a wound.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so, and one quick thing about that is that hurt in the brain, this is crazy way that God has, you know, fearfully, wonderfully made us, it turns out that, to think about the euphemisms we use to describe emotional hurt, slap in the face, punch in the gut, broke my heart, stab in the back, like all those things would really hurt someone dead.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so turns out, they started in these spec scans.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Doctors started in spec scans, spectrometer scans, turns out the same place in the brain lights up when we experience emotional hurt as it does me experience physical hurt.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So the brain doesn't know a difference between the two.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it literally hurts us when we receive relational woundedness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so there's metaphors people are saying I'm just trying to put language on what it's like.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you mentioned harm.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So your wife's example of her that was a fateful wound of a friend.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What's harm?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like there's some different intent that's also hurtful when we're experiencing harm.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, harm is something that this integrates or that pushes someone away.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If I say something hurtful to Todd that's feedback that doesn't harm him, Todd and I grow closer together, I go, oh, I need to hear that feedback.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Harm is I'm attacking him in order to harm him so that I can have power over him.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the major distinction is like who, when my wife told me that she actually put herself in a far more vulnerable place than I was.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I could have accused her of accusing me, could have raved at her for what do you mean?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Who do you think I am?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Those kinds of things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So she was really the vulnerable one by telling me about her fear and I felt hurt.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it would be she was not attempting to harm me so she would have power.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and she done that she had said I know what you're going to do I take exactly what you're going to do because I know just how you are and it's just started attacking that way that would have been harmful she would have the power and we were in the car she would have the power in the car and the relationship okay so harm is more of a bully it's more oppressive it's more I'm cutting you down to gain leverage or to compete and win against you or something like that nature's right
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, one writer says this, I can't remember who it is, but they say, I believe it's a woman either Melanie Bady or the German Pimental Melody says this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Hert may or may not be good for me, but harm is never good for me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: When I read that, it's like, man, that is a great way to define her in harm.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, hert will most likely be helpful for me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Harm is never good for me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, it's always destructive, it's always turned down.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is a really helpful emotion for us to name because if we've grown up in a reformed tradition or we've grown up in any kind of confessing community where we know we have sin and we know we have sin to own, we haven't always been given a community where we can actually show up and talk about how other people sin has affected us.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: The emphasis is always on the individual.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What did you do?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Not what it other people do and how is that impacted you?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and hurts that emotionally for me where I'm just trying to take an inventory of what's it like to be in a fallen world?
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're not only at I sin, there's plenty of times I need to confess when I sin, but others are sinning too.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm catching collateral damage in that world.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And just naming, hey, that hurt.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it, and it seems like there was some intent that those are the most hurtful right when you, when you, and it moves into harm you and I think you were trying to hurt me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think you were trying to disciple me or speak the truth in love.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think you were actually trying to harm me and that's just hurtful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And to have language to say, hey, that's, that hurts.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But what's the gift of hurt?
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[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm feeling that emotion and I'm going to process it in relationship with God or another person, I'm actually going to tell the truth about it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What happens?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What do I ever see?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Why is that a better way to live?
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[SPEAKER_01]: To tell the truth about it?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think it starts with first finding out the safe people to share her with.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think so often because of how we're made, we want to run to the people that hurt us to share our hurt, but they're the ones that actually wounded us.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so we're going to the people that wounded us to try to end the gifted to receive healing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think the first place is, do you have safe people that you can bring your hurt to or see the gift of the healing?
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[SPEAKER_02]: As you know, Chilti says, all relationships bring wounds, therefore the only place for healing is through relationships.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's the gift is coming to a place of true healing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: One, I believe it's Dan Allen, and his book says this, and this is the courage that gives me the healing to keep going forward.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He says, courage is the choice to move our heart into community.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think so often we in the church,
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[SPEAKER_02]: The church wounds us, and so most people have been wounded by the church, they vacate the premises.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, man, we need to encourage them to move back into the church to bring our hurt.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we can have healing so they can really live in true authentic community.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's so good.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think if I don't know why this time in a girl from Kusong about I'm a rock, I'm an island and I don't know if there's no pain.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's like this I'm gonna isolate because I got I got hurt now.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna pull away from everyone because I don't want to be hurt again And I'm here you say courage is saying hey, I really was hurt and I could be hurt again because I'm going back into the arena I'm going back into the fallen world with with centers.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I could be hurt again, but if I can heal from it
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[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I can realize, hey, there is hurts that we'll be incurred again, and there's healing that'll come again, and I can keep going back in the game I can keep staying engaged in life in a broken world and not isolate and not live in a way that's not without with that relationship Yeah, I have a 12-year-old Tennyson, so I know in a few years hopefully when she's 20, you're not 17, 18, I'm sure I'll be 17 or 18, but she will get in relationship with boys and those boys are gonna hurt her She's gonna come home and it the
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[SPEAKER_02]: sweet spot will be what did Jenny my wife and I do with her inner hurt.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We help her get to the place of healing and that healing gives her the courage to go back out and date again.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: If not, she'll do one or two things.
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[SPEAKER_02]: She'll either not bring that hurt home and then she'll go she'll go out and try to heal her own hurt through more relationships with more boys and harm herself.
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[SPEAKER_02]: or she'll isolate from relationship and she'll live in our basement until she's 35 years old.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so we want to create a home that she's able to bring that hurt home, receive the healing, receiving the healing gives her the courage to go back out and be like, okay, I'm willing to get her to again.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that'll be the ongoing process.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, yeah, I mean, I know a key word around her, and especially healing around it is a tension, and someone just literally turning and in a way, validating, hey, you're right, that was hurtful, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So they talk a little bit about attention and what's the difference between coming home and having a safe place where there's attentive?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, you're right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's hurtful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's harmful versus a place where, hey, suck it up, buttercup.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We got bigger things to worry about today than that same that happened to you, move on, where there's a lack of attention.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lack of, I see that, and that you matter.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe speak to attention around how we receive others hurt.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think in the previous podcast, it's giving people a safe place to identify what they're feeling.
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[SPEAKER_02]: to express what they're feeling, explore what they're feeling, those things, that's the places we've got to help people get to and bring validation to what they're feeling.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think the key to all of this is like am I am I willing to receive someone else's feelings and validate what they're feeling and then help them move beyond that place.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That is true, attention.
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[SPEAKER_02]: me paying attention to the feelings of another human being.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's see.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Jeff Schulti mentioned the liturgy of a bandaid with a child.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This idea that if a kid scrapes their need, they've been hurt.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's a minor hurt.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The bandaid probably doesn't actually...
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[SPEAKER_01]: heal a great first scratch, but the liturgy of a parent stopping what they're doing to say you matter enough for us to do a liturgy around this hurt that you've incurred, and it's really the relationship.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's a relational repair.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's, hey, when you're harmed, there's a place you can come that people will see you and acknowledge you matter and do something to address it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, because we're not, in a lot of ways, not able to heal in the way that God heals, we're just able
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, you matter Phil and when you're harmed that matters in the world because you matter and I can see that and and but what's happening when that's happening Yeah, sorry.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: No, what's happening when when I when I come to an empathetic listener and they validate that I matter because they see the hurt and they validate in a sense
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the word attention means to be tended to, and so the band aid is a picture of being someone tending the garden called the heart, the heart, I mean, so that attention taught talking about Tennyson, they're going to be tending to her, like her heart is a garden, and we pull and weeds out of that thing, talking about the beauty of that thing that garden that she has inside of her, and so they're going to be tending to it, putting fences around it, where the
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[SPEAKER_00]: were the, were the vormits can't get into it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the vormits in there, they're going to go in there and get those vormits out of her heart.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so he's speaking beautifully about his daughter about how you tend to the heart.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And there's this beautiful picture, really.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like a full-crum verse in John 16 where Jesus says, I've told you these things, these things in the upper room.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I've told you these things that you're going to have my spirit living inside of you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and you're going to serve one another like John the upper room serve one another I'm going to be indwelling in you and it says this remarkable thing in this world you're going to be squeezed but take heart take courage what he's saying is hurt well when this happens hurt well with there's a popular word in psychology these days called resiliency
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's what he's talking about, like you will build a motion or relational and spiritual resiliency if you will hurt well, stay present with me and with one another like I just told you and then it flows in the John 17 where where he says this Holy Spirit is in you as you are with me and you are with each other and then look at the epistles about how often that
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[SPEAKER_00]: And these writers of the New Testament have that indwelling Holy Spirit says, this is how you attend to one another in the body when injury occurs.
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[SPEAKER_00]: that attention there, that's a big attention in courage or really big words to tend to that garden in your chest through to in order to bring the cord, the French word of courage, where we get a recoronary, to bring that heart back into things through being tended to because you've you've you've developed a wound in this bandeta symbolic of the liturgy around
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[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen people show up with her in a healthy community and the community's more upset about the hurt than the person is.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The person's minimizing a little bit.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They're kind of okay.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When that big of a deal, and the people were like, no, it's a huge deal.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm really passionate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I see the gift that is for the person to be able to be invited into the fullness of what that was.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And really hear the community say, you matter a ton.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And someone doing that to you is not okay.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I'm about to drive over there and tell them what's up, you know, and that person sitting there with this experience that's unspoken in some ways, but I think it's very embodied of, and I think I do matter a ton.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I could say one more example, I remember Meg Meeker's book, Strong Father Strong Daughter.
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[SPEAKER_01]: as she talks about sad and tragic, but if there's a sexual assault of a daughter and the dad goes passive, the dad's passivity around her hurt is almost more damaging than her first.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But if her dad's like, I'm getting in the truck and I'm chasing that dude down, that attention and that response communicates, oh, you matter a ton and there's justice in the world.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And if you link the podcast we've done in this series,
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[SPEAKER_00]: Listen to what you're describing Duke around an angry dad.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the need that's one of the needs revealed by anger is the need for voice and you're talking about advocacy which means with voice that angry father gets in that truck and he drives over there and he says to that girl you matter to me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: in your heart and I'm angry.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I want to be real clear and move toward this solution and be a voice for you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Dude, the integration hurts.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's super helpful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What happens when we don't deal with her?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so we're feeling it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We've been hurt.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We won't maybe admit it to herself or we won't admit it to God or another person.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What are some of the impairments with some of the problem with not dealing honestly with it?
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you look at the word that describes the impairment, I'll throw it over to Todd here if this quick comment.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You look at the word resentment, which is the what happens if we don't identify it, explore it and express it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's like we're rescinding the wound that occurred in order to have power.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's going to be a real common theme through all these feelings.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And when we move over to this, what we call the column of the impairment of this feeling, what happens when we don't feel it and deal with it?
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[SPEAKER_00]: It hardened into something, and if I'm hurt, then I'm going to re-send that injury in order to have power over the one who hurt me, rather than the vulnerability of admission of her stay back here in this place of impairment, and I'm hurling rocks, hurt rocks at the one who harm hurt me, or harm me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, tell me what he said was, you know, it's the refusal of having to do relationships with another human being and then when I get into a place for resentment that I'm going to start blaming other people Right blaming you for what happened to me blaming you for my behavior after what happened to me and like what's there for it's there for us and taking no ownership of resentment is now casting blame not to be in relationship with other people and
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[SPEAKER_02]: The way to stay out of resentment is not to blame anyone.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's just to simply name what happened.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Do you name the hurt that happened to you to be back in relationship?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't have the power of resentment.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Resentment is a powerful, powerful place to be in.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The way my resentment works is I don't tend to go external with my resentment.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I go internal and I plot your demise in my head.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and I'll wake up in the morning plotting your demise.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If I see you, I'll be nice to your face, but I'm cutting your throat, you know, metaphorically internally, and you have no idea, but it leaves me with the power of the relationship, though I'm not in relationship.
17:41.729 --> 17:43.092
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what resentment does for me.
17:43.072 --> 17:44.334
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, I'm resentment.
17:44.554 --> 17:48.820
[SPEAKER_01]: People's, yeah, it's cliche, but people say the idea of swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die.
17:48.860 --> 17:52.765
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something happening internally in me when I will not release you.
17:52.785 --> 17:54.007
[SPEAKER_01]: I won't deal honestly with it.
17:54.027 --> 17:56.150
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even maybe tell you that I'm hurt.
17:56.730 --> 17:58.373
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm being impacted, right?
17:58.453 --> 18:01.176
[SPEAKER_01]: Then people, it's not neutral that I'm not dealing with hurt.
18:01.477 --> 18:02.278
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm being affected.
18:02.919 --> 18:05.282
[SPEAKER_01]: What happens if that resentment goes on for a long, long time?
18:05.262 --> 18:11.938
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, sometimes we see, let's say, a married couple that doesn't know how to deal with the hurt in the ways they've hurt one another and it's gone on.
18:12.880 --> 18:16.328
[SPEAKER_01]: What do we see start to emerge in relationship when that's just gone on?
18:16.408 --> 18:22.663
[SPEAKER_00]: Todd really smoothly segueed into it and moves from resentment to revenge.
18:22.643 --> 18:27.892
[SPEAKER_00]: and taught to, you know, I start waking up in the morning, plotting their demise.
18:27.932 --> 18:32.680
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how can I devise something even if I don't ever do it?
18:32.720 --> 18:35.043
[SPEAKER_00]: People think about revenge as being an outward action.
18:35.765 --> 18:43.317
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, when resentment is, he hurt me, he hurt me, he hurt me, he hurt me, he hurt me, he hurt me, it just sure it's a rescinding revenge is.
18:43.678 --> 18:48.145
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is what I imagine happening to them as a result of them hurting me.
18:48.125 --> 18:53.814
[SPEAKER_00]: And we'll begin to think about other scenarios where they're embarrassed or they're humiliated or they're rejected.
18:53.834 --> 19:07.094
[SPEAKER_00]: And there have been a half and have I heard in any clinician or pastor, helper, or maybe even spouser, who may have heard, I want them to hurt like I've hurt, and then I fucking even the score, which we know isn't really true.
19:07.114 --> 19:14.386
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't happen, but if I can even the score through revenge, then the scale of justice will be back in line, I can be okay.
19:14.866 --> 19:14.966
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:14.986 --> 19:15.988
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is the lie of that.
19:15.968 --> 19:19.752
[SPEAKER_01]: Man, I've seen this, yeah, the Mary couple is the classic one.
19:20.093 --> 19:24.798
[SPEAKER_01]: They've both heard each other and they've both become resentful of one another.
19:24.898 --> 19:26.000
[SPEAKER_01]: This has continued on.
19:26.020 --> 19:29.023
[SPEAKER_01]: They both have plenty of data points for the harm that the others done.
19:29.063 --> 19:30.064
[SPEAKER_01]: They're mostly seeing that.
19:30.505 --> 19:34.189
[SPEAKER_01]: And eventually it gets the place of revenge, where they're using the kids against one another.
19:34.209 --> 19:39.055
[SPEAKER_01]: They're actively harming one another, sometimes with words, sometimes financially, whatever.
19:39.075 --> 19:41.217
[SPEAKER_01]: They're literally starting to do.
19:41.197 --> 19:46.965
[SPEAKER_01]: actions that do become manifest to just harm because they couldn't deal with the hurt.
19:47.005 --> 19:50.089
[SPEAKER_01]: They couldn't come back together, couldn't play into it.
19:50.750 --> 19:55.877
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we see in the Scriptures and Hebrews that Jesus is a high priest who can sympathize with our weakness.
19:56.678 --> 20:02.105
[SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean that our God took on flesh and he actually experienced hurt in the world?
20:02.526 --> 20:06.411
[SPEAKER_01]: So that when we come to him and prayer, he knows something about that.
20:06.391 --> 20:28.990
[SPEAKER_02]: you know that comes to mind is saying hurt people hurt people well what is also true is healed people heal people and that's what Jesus did Jesus dealt with his hurt but received the healing from the father you know we see that throughout you know that is the resurrection I healed Savior that can sympathize with all of us and brings the healing to us and so
20:28.970 --> 20:31.214
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the beauty for me about Christ.
20:31.234 --> 20:38.907
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, man, there is a man that died for me, that hurt, and all the ways I've hurt, and received a healing from the Father.
20:38.967 --> 20:40.710
[SPEAKER_02]: Now he's offering that healing back to me.
20:41.291 --> 20:43.816
[SPEAKER_02]: That's really the way I see it with Christ.
20:44.237 --> 20:45.038
[SPEAKER_01]: That's beautiful.
20:45.018 --> 20:50.365
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and even as you're saying that taught him thinking like, you know, the gospel is so much more than a transaction.
20:50.866 --> 21:00.680
[SPEAKER_01]: It's certainly an attoning event that brings me into communion with God, but then I can keep coming back to the high priest again and again throughout my life as I hurt.
21:01.341 --> 21:10.333
[SPEAKER_01]: And many different ways, big and small, over and over, and he's always there, always attentive, always knowing exactly what it's like, and able to heal.
21:10.313 --> 21:11.315
[SPEAKER_01]: a great physician.
21:11.675 --> 21:12.918
[SPEAKER_01]: How does a gospel relate to her?
21:12.978 --> 21:17.866
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm thinking about forgiveness, verses, unforgiveness, right?
21:17.926 --> 21:19.890
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the gospel speak directly to that.
21:20.731 --> 21:26.702
[SPEAKER_01]: I would see the gospel informing our herd and what we do to process that in relationship.
21:27.813 --> 21:36.791
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the the the gospels a hole if you look at across the epistles not just the gospels but the epistles it come the new testament.
21:37.833 --> 21:43.645
[SPEAKER_00]: You see over and over and over the writers obviously Paul mainly wrote most of the letters.
21:43.625 --> 22:04.587
[SPEAKER_00]: saying, in all different kind of bear with one another, be patient with one another, why do you have quarrels among you because you lost after power, in James, you know, all the gospel as a whole covers, the main talking point around life and the body is, do hurt will.
22:04.567 --> 22:08.194
[SPEAKER_00]: through forgiveness, through forbearance, through patience.
22:08.615 --> 22:23.385
[SPEAKER_00]: They're remembering the one another's, because all these by serving, like all these different examples, we don't often, the words not spoken directly, but that scene where Peter has denied Christ three times.
22:23.365 --> 22:29.073
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't know because it doesn't say, but when he saw Jesus looking at him, he said he wept bitterly.
22:29.133 --> 22:30.335
[SPEAKER_00]: So we know he was sad.
22:30.355 --> 22:38.266
[SPEAKER_00]: He was grieving like crazy, but you can't imagine looking at the one that you know loves you like no other ever could love you.
22:38.567 --> 22:40.229
[SPEAKER_00]: Peter was at believer.
22:40.309 --> 22:42.072
[SPEAKER_00]: He believed this is God in flesh.
22:42.092 --> 22:43.133
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the Son of God.
22:43.153 --> 22:48.020
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I have done and he looks in this, the hurt, he must have seen on Jesus his face.
22:48.140 --> 22:49.322
[SPEAKER_00]: And so.
22:49.302 --> 22:59.683
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a very human feeling that is kind of embedded in a lot of the one-on-nothers, what you find at the core of that is, you're going to hurt one another.
22:59.904 --> 23:01.687
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes you're going to harm one another.
23:02.188 --> 23:06.417
[SPEAKER_00]: And when that happens, remember all these one-on-nothers.
23:06.397 --> 23:09.784
[SPEAKER_00]: that the gospel says we're to live in the body together with.
23:10.125 --> 23:10.887
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:10.907 --> 23:12.129
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's so helpful.
23:13.051 --> 23:13.853
[SPEAKER_01]: I was we wrapped this up.
23:13.873 --> 23:16.859
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just thinking about a community or a family that can do hurt well.
23:17.882 --> 23:21.790
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the gifts of that is we can do relationship over long periods of time.
23:21.770 --> 23:25.277
[SPEAKER_01]: We can actually stay connected, even as centers here are going to harm one another.
23:25.297 --> 23:28.805
[SPEAKER_01]: We can actually come back together, mention faith and courage.
23:28.945 --> 23:35.879
[SPEAKER_01]: I can go back into the relationship with some hope that even if it goes sideways again, I've got the ability to be healed.
23:35.939 --> 23:40.048
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got the ability to receive what I need, the attention I need from someone.
23:40.028 --> 23:46.318
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, it's the difference between long-term, deep relationships versus the picking up stakes.
23:46.358 --> 23:53.529
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've got to always pick up and move a little bit further away, find another church, find another community, maybe even find another spouse, right?
23:53.629 --> 23:56.293
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that last one, man, they were just effective.
23:56.613 --> 23:59.337
[SPEAKER_01]: They send against me and it's like, they totally did.
23:59.858 --> 24:01.300
[SPEAKER_01]: And the next one's going to.
24:01.320 --> 24:08.331
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, if we don't learn how to deal with her, we just are never going to have that long and deep relationship experience that we are grateful.
24:08.311 --> 24:28.935
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's a huge gift to know what to do and to be able to walk in the relationship.
00:10.173 --> 00:14.546
[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to Reform, and be in private podcasts.
00:14.566 --> 00:18.117
[SPEAKER_03]: Embracing the beauty and brokenness in your journey with God.
00:18.840 --> 00:19.963
[SPEAKER_03]: Enjoy this episode.
00:22.188 --> 00:25.453
[SPEAKER_01]: really excited to keep this conversation going with you guys.
00:25.953 --> 00:29.158
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just so many bad ideas about emotion.
00:29.579 --> 00:40.775
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're trying to clear that up, get clear, and even get folks to the place where they can actually identify what's going on in their own heart so that they can show up in a relationship, have more connection with God, self and others.
00:40.815 --> 00:44.320
[SPEAKER_01]: And so in this episode we want to talk about hurt.
00:44.340 --> 00:45.482
[SPEAKER_01]: And we might start with you Phil.
00:45.622 --> 00:46.063
[SPEAKER_01]: What am I?
00:46.183 --> 00:49.748
[SPEAKER_01]: What am I feeling as a human being when I feel hurt?
00:49.728 --> 00:56.940
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is a really like literally illustrative one by the very name, like everyone has an idea.
00:56.960 --> 01:02.108
[SPEAKER_00]: A child even without verbal skill yet knows what hurt is.
01:02.629 --> 01:04.012
[SPEAKER_00]: Something is painful.
01:04.593 --> 01:05.073
[SPEAKER_00]: That's hurt.
01:05.234 --> 01:11.584
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the talk about hurt in the relational world is like I've received woundedness.
01:11.564 --> 01:12.106
[SPEAKER_00]: around me.
01:12.146 --> 01:13.349
[SPEAKER_00]: It's wounding to me.
01:13.410 --> 01:18.184
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you let me tell a quick story here Duke around hurt and harm.
01:18.204 --> 01:21.574
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a good place to start.
01:21.689 --> 01:36.418
[SPEAKER_00]: The shorter version, the story is, when my wife was pregnant with our son, we went and had a sonogram and the sonogram that revealed the ginder and the sonogram text said, you know, it's a boy and I was really ecstatic.
01:36.458 --> 01:40.666
[SPEAKER_00]: And so Sheila, my wife did not seem as excited as I was.
01:40.686 --> 01:42.870
[SPEAKER_00]: So I asked her and she said, well,
01:42.850 --> 01:58.446
[SPEAKER_00]: She's writing out played baseball and she said, I'm honestly, she goes, I'm afraid that when this boy is born, if he loves books or drama or music or something other than sports or baseball, that you'll reject him.
01:58.898 --> 02:00.882
[SPEAKER_00]: like that hurt so bad.
02:01.363 --> 02:03.246
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was such a loving statement.
02:03.387 --> 02:06.092
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a wound, but it wasn't harmful.
02:06.513 --> 02:07.274
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a matter of fact.
02:07.314 --> 02:10.821
[SPEAKER_00]: It really altered the way I probably would have parented him.
02:11.642 --> 02:13.786
[SPEAKER_00]: And he did end up playing baseball over through high school.
02:13.806 --> 02:15.169
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a great player.
02:15.149 --> 02:17.771
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's almost irrelevant to this.
02:17.791 --> 02:22.996
[SPEAKER_00]: But this feeling called hurt is I'm in a relationship and I've received a wound.
02:23.016 --> 02:26.900
[SPEAKER_00]: And the writer of Proverbs talks about the wounds of a friend.
02:27.460 --> 02:30.523
[SPEAKER_00]: The wounds of a friend are a loving wife, in this case.
02:31.043 --> 02:32.164
[SPEAKER_00]: They're really valuable.
02:32.304 --> 02:35.627
[SPEAKER_00]: So we need to make sure we're talking about emotional hurt.
02:36.228 --> 02:39.151
[SPEAKER_00]: Doesn't necessarily mean harm, though often it does.
02:39.331 --> 02:45.156
[SPEAKER_00]: But a hurt just simply says, I'm in relationship with someone and I've received a wound.
02:45.136 --> 03:09.220
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, and one quick thing about that is that hurt in the brain, this is crazy way that God has, you know, fearfully, wonderfully made us, it turns out that, to think about the euphemisms we use to describe emotional hurt, slap in the face, punch in the gut, broke my heart, stab in the back, like all those things would really hurt someone dead.
03:09.200 --> 03:12.264
[SPEAKER_00]: And so turns out, they started in these spec scans.
03:12.564 --> 03:21.796
[SPEAKER_00]: Doctors started in spec scans, spectrometer scans, turns out the same place in the brain lights up when we experience emotional hurt as it does me experience physical hurt.
03:21.816 --> 03:21.896
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
03:21.916 --> 03:23.639
[SPEAKER_00]: So the brain doesn't know a difference between the two.
03:23.699 --> 03:28.525
[SPEAKER_00]: So it literally hurts us when we receive relational woundedness.
03:28.505 --> 03:32.192
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so there's metaphors people are saying I'm just trying to put language on what it's like.
03:33.214 --> 03:34.236
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you mentioned harm.
03:34.717 --> 03:37.462
[SPEAKER_01]: So your wife's example of her that was a fateful wound of a friend.
03:37.943 --> 03:38.924
[SPEAKER_01]: What's harm?
03:39.265 --> 03:44.134
[SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like there's some different intent that's also hurtful when we're experiencing harm.
03:44.114 --> 03:49.300
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, harm is something that this integrates or that pushes someone away.
03:49.360 --> 03:59.852
[SPEAKER_00]: If I say something hurtful to Todd that's feedback that doesn't harm him, Todd and I grow closer together, I go, oh, I need to hear that feedback.
04:00.212 --> 04:07.320
[SPEAKER_00]: Harm is I'm attacking him in order to harm him so that I can have power over him.
04:07.300 --> 04:16.492
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the major distinction is like who, when my wife told me that she actually put herself in a far more vulnerable place than I was.
04:16.612 --> 04:21.519
[SPEAKER_00]: I could have accused her of accusing me, could have raved at her for what do you mean?
04:21.579 --> 04:22.761
[SPEAKER_00]: Who do you think I am?
04:22.781 --> 04:23.602
[SPEAKER_00]: Those kinds of things.
04:23.622 --> 04:29.309
[SPEAKER_00]: So she was really the vulnerable one by telling me about her fear and I felt hurt.
04:29.409 --> 04:35.097
[SPEAKER_00]: So it would be she was not attempting to harm me so she would have power.
04:35.077 --> 04:59.143
[SPEAKER_00]: and she done that she had said I know what you're going to do I take exactly what you're going to do because I know just how you are and it's just started attacking that way that would have been harmful she would have the power and we were in the car she would have the power in the car and the relationship okay so harm is more of a bully it's more oppressive it's more I'm cutting you down to gain leverage or to compete and win against you or something like that nature's right
04:59.123 --> 05:08.516
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, one writer says this, I can't remember who it is, but they say, I believe it's a woman either Melanie Bady or the German Pimental Melody says this.
05:11.060 --> 05:14.785
[SPEAKER_02]: Hert may or may not be good for me, but harm is never good for me.
05:16.047 --> 05:19.552
[SPEAKER_02]: When I read that, it's like, man, that is a great way to define her in harm.
05:20.133 --> 05:23.237
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, hert will most likely be helpful for me.
05:23.297 --> 05:25.300
[SPEAKER_02]: Harm is never good for me.
05:25.320 --> 05:27.223
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, it's always destructive, it's always turned down.
05:27.203 --> 05:46.528
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is a really helpful emotion for us to name because if we've grown up in a reformed tradition or we've grown up in any kind of confessing community where we know we have sin and we know we have sin to own, we haven't always been given a community where we can actually show up and talk about how other people sin has affected us.
05:46.508 --> 05:46.889
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
05:46.929 --> 05:48.351
[SPEAKER_01]: The emphasis is always on the individual.
05:48.371 --> 05:48.992
[SPEAKER_01]: What did you do?
05:49.032 --> 05:52.798
[SPEAKER_01]: Not what it other people do and how is that impacted you?
05:52.978 --> 05:58.767
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and hurts that emotionally for me where I'm just trying to take an inventory of what's it like to be in a fallen world?
05:59.328 --> 06:04.116
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not only at I sin, there's plenty of times I need to confess when I sin, but others are sinning too.
06:04.556 --> 06:07.461
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm catching collateral damage in that world.
06:08.302 --> 06:11.487
[SPEAKER_01]: And just naming, hey, that hurt.
06:11.467 --> 06:20.079
[SPEAKER_01]: And it, and it seems like there was some intent that those are the most hurtful right when you, when you, and it moves into harm you and I think you were trying to hurt me.
06:20.099 --> 06:23.003
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think you were trying to disciple me or speak the truth in love.
06:23.043 --> 06:26.448
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you were actually trying to harm me and that's just hurtful.
06:27.069 --> 06:30.934
[SPEAKER_01]: And to have language to say, hey, that's, that hurts.
06:31.375 --> 06:33.117
[SPEAKER_01]: But what's the gift of hurt?
06:33.257 --> 06:40.427
[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm feeling that emotion and I'm going to process it in relationship with God or another person, I'm actually going to tell the truth about it.
06:40.407 --> 06:41.609
[SPEAKER_01]: What happens?
06:41.749 --> 06:42.650
[SPEAKER_01]: What do I ever see?
06:42.710 --> 06:44.653
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is that a better way to live?
06:44.813 --> 06:46.575
[SPEAKER_01]: To tell the truth about it?
06:46.595 --> 06:51.222
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think it starts with first finding out the safe people to share her with.
06:51.302 --> 06:58.411
[SPEAKER_02]: I think so often because of how we're made, we want to run to the people that hurt us to share our hurt, but they're the ones that actually wounded us.
06:58.511 --> 07:03.478
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we're going to the people that wounded us to try to end the gifted to receive healing.
07:03.458 --> 07:10.149
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the first place is, do you have safe people that you can bring your hurt to or see the gift of the healing?
07:10.951 --> 07:21.889
[SPEAKER_02]: As you know, Chilti says, all relationships bring wounds, therefore the only place for healing is through relationships.
07:21.869 --> 07:25.877
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the gift is coming to a place of true healing.
07:26.518 --> 07:34.573
[SPEAKER_02]: One, I believe it's Dan Allen, and his book says this, and this is the courage that gives me the healing to keep going forward.
07:34.613 --> 07:38.982
[SPEAKER_02]: He says, courage is the choice to move our heart into community.
07:40.064 --> 07:42.949
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think so often we in the church,
07:42.929 --> 07:48.178
[SPEAKER_02]: The church wounds us, and so most people have been wounded by the church, they vacate the premises.
07:48.218 --> 07:52.985
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, man, we need to encourage them to move back into the church to bring our hurt.
07:53.366 --> 07:57.132
[SPEAKER_02]: So we can have healing so they can really live in true authentic community.
07:57.433 --> 07:58.414
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's so good.
07:58.835 --> 08:03.182
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think if I don't know why this time in a girl from Kusong about I'm a rock, I'm an island and I don't know if there's no pain.
08:03.162 --> 08:06.408
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like this I'm gonna isolate because I got I got hurt now.
08:06.428 --> 08:18.328
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna pull away from everyone because I don't want to be hurt again And I'm here you say courage is saying hey, I really was hurt and I could be hurt again because I'm going back into the arena I'm going back into the fallen world with with centers.
08:18.809 --> 08:21.053
[SPEAKER_01]: I could be hurt again, but if I can heal from it
08:21.033 --> 08:50.078
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I can realize, hey, there is hurts that we'll be incurred again, and there's healing that'll come again, and I can keep going back in the game I can keep staying engaged in life in a broken world and not isolate and not live in a way that's not without with that relationship Yeah, I have a 12-year-old Tennyson, so I know in a few years hopefully when she's 20, you're not 17, 18, I'm sure I'll be 17 or 18, but she will get in relationship with boys and those boys are gonna hurt her She's gonna come home and it the
08:50.058 --> 08:53.904
[SPEAKER_02]: sweet spot will be what did Jenny my wife and I do with her inner hurt.
08:54.545 --> 08:59.814
[SPEAKER_02]: We help her get to the place of healing and that healing gives her the courage to go back out and date again.
09:00.315 --> 09:00.475
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
09:00.555 --> 09:02.678
[SPEAKER_02]: If not, she'll do one or two things.
09:02.718 --> 09:11.172
[SPEAKER_02]: She'll either not bring that hurt home and then she'll go she'll go out and try to heal her own hurt through more relationships with more boys and harm herself.
09:11.152 --> 09:16.119
[SPEAKER_02]: or she'll isolate from relationship and she'll live in our basement until she's 35 years old.
09:16.139 --> 09:25.973
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we want to create a home that she's able to bring that hurt home, receive the healing, receiving the healing gives her the courage to go back out and be like, okay, I'm willing to get her to again.
09:25.993 --> 09:28.637
[SPEAKER_02]: And that'll be the ongoing process.
09:28.617 --> 09:39.063
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, yeah, I mean, I know a key word around her, and especially healing around it is a tension, and someone just literally turning and in a way, validating, hey, you're right, that was hurtful, right?
09:39.443 --> 09:45.799
[SPEAKER_01]: So they talk a little bit about attention and what's the difference between coming home and having a safe place where there's attentive?
09:45.779 --> 09:46.540
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, you're right.
09:46.821 --> 09:47.642
[SPEAKER_01]: That's hurtful.
09:47.682 --> 09:50.907
[SPEAKER_01]: That's harmful versus a place where, hey, suck it up, buttercup.
09:50.927 --> 09:56.395
[SPEAKER_01]: We got bigger things to worry about today than that same that happened to you, move on, where there's a lack of attention.
09:56.575 --> 09:58.859
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lack of, I see that, and that you matter.
09:59.780 --> 10:02.624
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe speak to attention around how we receive others hurt.
10:03.085 --> 10:08.293
[SPEAKER_02]: I think in the previous podcast, it's giving people a safe place to identify what they're feeling.
10:08.273 --> 10:18.250
[SPEAKER_02]: to express what they're feeling, explore what they're feeling, those things, that's the places we've got to help people get to and bring validation to what they're feeling.
10:18.871 --> 10:28.527
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the key to all of this is like am I am I willing to receive someone else's feelings and validate what they're feeling and then help them move beyond that place.
10:28.567 --> 10:30.450
[SPEAKER_02]: That is true, attention.
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[SPEAKER_02]: me paying attention to the feelings of another human being.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's see.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Jeff Schulti mentioned the liturgy of a bandaid with a child.
10:41.113 --> 10:44.099
[SPEAKER_01]: This idea that if a kid scrapes their need, they've been hurt.
10:44.340 --> 10:45.082
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a minor hurt.
10:45.723 --> 10:48.068
[SPEAKER_01]: The bandaid probably doesn't actually...
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[SPEAKER_01]: heal a great first scratch, but the liturgy of a parent stopping what they're doing to say you matter enough for us to do a liturgy around this hurt that you've incurred, and it's really the relationship.
11:00.004 --> 11:01.025
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a relational repair.
11:01.045 --> 11:08.655
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, hey, when you're harmed, there's a place you can come that people will see you and acknowledge you matter and do something to address it.
11:09.276 --> 11:14.663
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, because we're not, in a lot of ways, not able to heal in the way that God heals, we're just able
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, you matter Phil and when you're harmed that matters in the world because you matter and I can see that and and but what's happening when that's happening Yeah, sorry.
11:24.496 --> 11:24.736
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: No, what's happening when when I when I come to an empathetic listener and they validate that I matter because they see the hurt and they validate in a sense
11:34.268 --> 12:00.563
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the word attention means to be tended to, and so the band aid is a picture of being someone tending the garden called the heart, the heart, I mean, so that attention taught talking about Tennyson, they're going to be tending to her, like her heart is a garden, and we pull and weeds out of that thing, talking about the beauty of that thing that garden that she has inside of her, and so they're going to be tending to it, putting fences around it, where the
12:00.543 --> 12:02.705
[SPEAKER_00]: were the, were the vormits can't get into it.
12:02.785 --> 12:06.548
[SPEAKER_00]: And the vormits in there, they're going to go in there and get those vormits out of her heart.
12:06.809 --> 12:11.633
[SPEAKER_00]: And so he's speaking beautifully about his daughter about how you tend to the heart.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And there's this beautiful picture, really.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like a full-crum verse in John 16 where Jesus says, I've told you these things, these things in the upper room.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I've told you these things that you're going to have my spirit living inside of you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and you're going to serve one another like John the upper room serve one another I'm going to be indwelling in you and it says this remarkable thing in this world you're going to be squeezed but take heart take courage what he's saying is hurt well when this happens hurt well with there's a popular word in psychology these days called resiliency
12:53.041 --> 13:19.993
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's what he's talking about, like you will build a motion or relational and spiritual resiliency if you will hurt well, stay present with me and with one another like I just told you and then it flows in the John 17 where where he says this Holy Spirit is in you as you are with me and you are with each other and then look at the epistles about how often that
13:19.973 --> 13:29.376
[SPEAKER_00]: And these writers of the New Testament have that indwelling Holy Spirit says, this is how you attend to one another in the body when injury occurs.
13:29.474 --> 13:56.460
[SPEAKER_00]: that attention there, that's a big attention in courage or really big words to tend to that garden in your chest through to in order to bring the cord, the French word of courage, where we get a recoronary, to bring that heart back into things through being tended to because you've you've you've developed a wound in this bandeta symbolic of the liturgy around
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[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
13:57.742 --> 14:04.012
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen people show up with her in a healthy community and the community's more upset about the hurt than the person is.
14:04.032 --> 14:05.454
[SPEAKER_01]: The person's minimizing a little bit.
14:05.514 --> 14:06.216
[SPEAKER_01]: They're kind of okay.
14:06.236 --> 14:08.880
[SPEAKER_01]: When that big of a deal, and the people were like, no, it's a huge deal.
14:09.100 --> 14:10.062
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm really passionate.
14:10.082 --> 14:15.991
[SPEAKER_01]: And I see the gift that is for the person to be able to be invited into the fullness of what that was.
14:16.212 --> 14:18.696
[SPEAKER_01]: And really hear the community say, you matter a ton.
14:19.056 --> 14:21.520
[SPEAKER_01]: And someone doing that to you is not okay.
14:21.500 --> 14:31.763
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I'm about to drive over there and tell them what's up, you know, and that person sitting there with this experience that's unspoken in some ways, but I think it's very embodied of, and I think I do matter a ton.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I could say one more example, I remember Meg Meeker's book, Strong Father Strong Daughter.
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[SPEAKER_01]: as she talks about sad and tragic, but if there's a sexual assault of a daughter and the dad goes passive, the dad's passivity around her hurt is almost more damaging than her first.
14:49.934 --> 15:00.770
[SPEAKER_01]: But if her dad's like, I'm getting in the truck and I'm chasing that dude down, that attention and that response communicates, oh, you matter a ton and there's justice in the world.
15:01.351 --> 15:05.817
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you link the podcast we've done in this series,
15:05.797 --> 15:09.004
[SPEAKER_00]: Listen to what you're describing Duke around an angry dad.
15:10.166 --> 15:23.535
[SPEAKER_00]: And the need that's one of the needs revealed by anger is the need for voice and you're talking about advocacy which means with voice that angry father gets in that truck and he drives over there and he says to that girl you matter to me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: in your heart and I'm angry.
15:25.999 --> 15:29.926
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to be real clear and move toward this solution and be a voice for you.
15:31.429 --> 15:32.490
[SPEAKER_00]: Dude, the integration hurts.
15:32.510 --> 15:33.352
[SPEAKER_01]: It's super helpful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What happens when we don't deal with her?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so we're feeling it.
15:37.118 --> 15:37.739
[SPEAKER_01]: We've been hurt.
15:37.819 --> 15:41.406
[SPEAKER_01]: We won't maybe admit it to herself or we won't admit it to God or another person.
15:41.466 --> 15:45.793
[SPEAKER_01]: What are some of the impairments with some of the problem with not dealing honestly with it?
15:45.773 --> 15:51.939
[SPEAKER_00]: If you look at the word that describes the impairment, I'll throw it over to Todd here if this quick comment.
15:52.800 --> 15:58.926
[SPEAKER_00]: You look at the word resentment, which is the what happens if we don't identify it, explore it and express it.
15:59.087 --> 16:04.892
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like we're rescinding the wound that occurred in order to have power.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's going to be a real common theme through all these feelings.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And when we move over to this, what we call the column of the impairment of this feeling, what happens when we don't feel it and deal with it?
16:15.203 --> 16:35.068
[SPEAKER_00]: It hardened into something, and if I'm hurt, then I'm going to re-send that injury in order to have power over the one who hurt me, rather than the vulnerability of admission of her stay back here in this place of impairment, and I'm hurling rocks, hurt rocks at the one who harm hurt me, or harm me.
16:35.048 --> 17:00.718
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, tell me what he said was, you know, it's the refusal of having to do relationships with another human being and then when I get into a place for resentment that I'm going to start blaming other people Right blaming you for what happened to me blaming you for my behavior after what happened to me and like what's there for it's there for us and taking no ownership of resentment is now casting blame not to be in relationship with other people and
17:01.306 --> 17:04.569
[SPEAKER_02]: The way to stay out of resentment is not to blame anyone.
17:04.589 --> 17:06.391
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just to simply name what happened.
17:06.411 --> 17:09.695
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you name the hurt that happened to you to be back in relationship?
17:09.815 --> 17:11.757
[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't have the power of resentment.
17:11.797 --> 17:15.521
[SPEAKER_02]: Resentment is a powerful, powerful place to be in.
17:16.742 --> 17:21.707
[SPEAKER_02]: The way my resentment works is I don't tend to go external with my resentment.
17:21.827 --> 17:25.491
[SPEAKER_02]: I go internal and I plot your demise in my head.
17:25.471 --> 17:27.616
[SPEAKER_02]: and I'll wake up in the morning plotting your demise.
17:27.816 --> 17:41.248
[SPEAKER_02]: If I see you, I'll be nice to your face, but I'm cutting your throat, you know, metaphorically internally, and you have no idea, but it leaves me with the power of the relationship, though I'm not in relationship.
17:41.729 --> 17:43.092
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what resentment does for me.
17:43.072 --> 17:44.334
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, I'm resentment.
17:44.554 --> 17:48.820
[SPEAKER_01]: People's, yeah, it's cliche, but people say the idea of swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die.
17:48.860 --> 17:52.765
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something happening internally in me when I will not release you.
17:52.785 --> 17:54.007
[SPEAKER_01]: I won't deal honestly with it.
17:54.027 --> 17:56.150
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even maybe tell you that I'm hurt.
17:56.730 --> 17:58.373
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm being impacted, right?
17:58.453 --> 18:01.176
[SPEAKER_01]: Then people, it's not neutral that I'm not dealing with hurt.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm being affected.
18:02.919 --> 18:05.282
[SPEAKER_01]: What happens if that resentment goes on for a long, long time?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, sometimes we see, let's say, a married couple that doesn't know how to deal with the hurt in the ways they've hurt one another and it's gone on.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What do we see start to emerge in relationship when that's just gone on?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Todd really smoothly segueed into it and moves from resentment to revenge.
18:22.643 --> 18:27.892
[SPEAKER_00]: and taught to, you know, I start waking up in the morning, plotting their demise.
18:27.932 --> 18:32.680
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how can I devise something even if I don't ever do it?
18:32.720 --> 18:35.043
[SPEAKER_00]: People think about revenge as being an outward action.
18:35.765 --> 18:43.317
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, when resentment is, he hurt me, he hurt me, he hurt me, he hurt me, he hurt me, he hurt me, it just sure it's a rescinding revenge is.
18:43.678 --> 18:48.145
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is what I imagine happening to them as a result of them hurting me.
18:48.125 --> 18:53.814
[SPEAKER_00]: And we'll begin to think about other scenarios where they're embarrassed or they're humiliated or they're rejected.
18:53.834 --> 19:07.094
[SPEAKER_00]: And there have been a half and have I heard in any clinician or pastor, helper, or maybe even spouser, who may have heard, I want them to hurt like I've hurt, and then I fucking even the score, which we know isn't really true.
19:07.114 --> 19:14.386
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't happen, but if I can even the score through revenge, then the scale of justice will be back in line, I can be okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:14.986 --> 19:15.988
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is the lie of that.
19:15.968 --> 19:19.752
[SPEAKER_01]: Man, I've seen this, yeah, the Mary couple is the classic one.
19:20.093 --> 19:24.798
[SPEAKER_01]: They've both heard each other and they've both become resentful of one another.
19:24.898 --> 19:26.000
[SPEAKER_01]: This has continued on.
19:26.020 --> 19:29.023
[SPEAKER_01]: They both have plenty of data points for the harm that the others done.
19:29.063 --> 19:30.064
[SPEAKER_01]: They're mostly seeing that.
19:30.505 --> 19:34.189
[SPEAKER_01]: And eventually it gets the place of revenge, where they're using the kids against one another.
19:34.209 --> 19:39.055
[SPEAKER_01]: They're actively harming one another, sometimes with words, sometimes financially, whatever.
19:39.075 --> 19:41.217
[SPEAKER_01]: They're literally starting to do.
19:41.197 --> 19:46.965
[SPEAKER_01]: actions that do become manifest to just harm because they couldn't deal with the hurt.
19:47.005 --> 19:50.089
[SPEAKER_01]: They couldn't come back together, couldn't play into it.
19:50.750 --> 19:55.877
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we see in the Scriptures and Hebrews that Jesus is a high priest who can sympathize with our weakness.
19:56.678 --> 20:02.105
[SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean that our God took on flesh and he actually experienced hurt in the world?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that when we come to him and prayer, he knows something about that.
20:06.391 --> 20:28.990
[SPEAKER_02]: you know that comes to mind is saying hurt people hurt people well what is also true is healed people heal people and that's what Jesus did Jesus dealt with his hurt but received the healing from the father you know we see that throughout you know that is the resurrection I healed Savior that can sympathize with all of us and brings the healing to us and so
20:28.970 --> 20:31.214
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the beauty for me about Christ.
20:31.234 --> 20:38.907
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, man, there is a man that died for me, that hurt, and all the ways I've hurt, and received a healing from the Father.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Now he's offering that healing back to me.
20:41.291 --> 20:43.816
[SPEAKER_02]: That's really the way I see it with Christ.
20:44.237 --> 20:45.038
[SPEAKER_01]: That's beautiful.
20:45.018 --> 20:50.365
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and even as you're saying that taught him thinking like, you know, the gospel is so much more than a transaction.
20:50.866 --> 21:00.680
[SPEAKER_01]: It's certainly an attoning event that brings me into communion with God, but then I can keep coming back to the high priest again and again throughout my life as I hurt.
21:01.341 --> 21:10.333
[SPEAKER_01]: And many different ways, big and small, over and over, and he's always there, always attentive, always knowing exactly what it's like, and able to heal.
21:10.313 --> 21:11.315
[SPEAKER_01]: a great physician.
21:11.675 --> 21:12.918
[SPEAKER_01]: How does a gospel relate to her?
21:12.978 --> 21:17.866
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm thinking about forgiveness, verses, unforgiveness, right?
21:17.926 --> 21:19.890
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the gospel speak directly to that.
21:20.731 --> 21:26.702
[SPEAKER_01]: I would see the gospel informing our herd and what we do to process that in relationship.
21:27.813 --> 21:36.791
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the the the gospels a hole if you look at across the epistles not just the gospels but the epistles it come the new testament.
21:37.833 --> 21:43.645
[SPEAKER_00]: You see over and over and over the writers obviously Paul mainly wrote most of the letters.
21:43.625 --> 22:04.587
[SPEAKER_00]: saying, in all different kind of bear with one another, be patient with one another, why do you have quarrels among you because you lost after power, in James, you know, all the gospel as a whole covers, the main talking point around life and the body is, do hurt will.
22:04.567 --> 22:08.194
[SPEAKER_00]: through forgiveness, through forbearance, through patience.
22:08.615 --> 22:23.385
[SPEAKER_00]: They're remembering the one another's, because all these by serving, like all these different examples, we don't often, the words not spoken directly, but that scene where Peter has denied Christ three times.
22:23.365 --> 22:29.073
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't know because it doesn't say, but when he saw Jesus looking at him, he said he wept bitterly.
22:29.133 --> 22:30.335
[SPEAKER_00]: So we know he was sad.
22:30.355 --> 22:38.266
[SPEAKER_00]: He was grieving like crazy, but you can't imagine looking at the one that you know loves you like no other ever could love you.
22:38.567 --> 22:40.229
[SPEAKER_00]: Peter was at believer.
22:40.309 --> 22:42.072
[SPEAKER_00]: He believed this is God in flesh.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This is the Son of God.
22:43.153 --> 22:48.020
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I have done and he looks in this, the hurt, he must have seen on Jesus his face.
22:48.140 --> 22:49.322
[SPEAKER_00]: And so.
22:49.302 --> 22:59.683
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a very human feeling that is kind of embedded in a lot of the one-on-nothers, what you find at the core of that is, you're going to hurt one another.
22:59.904 --> 23:01.687
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes you're going to harm one another.
23:02.188 --> 23:06.417
[SPEAKER_00]: And when that happens, remember all these one-on-nothers.
23:06.397 --> 23:09.784
[SPEAKER_00]: that the gospel says we're to live in the body together with.
23:10.125 --> 23:10.887
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's so helpful.
23:13.051 --> 23:13.853
[SPEAKER_01]: I was we wrapped this up.
23:13.873 --> 23:16.859
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just thinking about a community or a family that can do hurt well.
23:17.882 --> 23:21.790
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the gifts of that is we can do relationship over long periods of time.
23:21.770 --> 23:25.277
[SPEAKER_01]: We can actually stay connected, even as centers here are going to harm one another.
23:25.297 --> 23:28.805
[SPEAKER_01]: We can actually come back together, mention faith and courage.
23:28.945 --> 23:35.879
[SPEAKER_01]: I can go back into the relationship with some hope that even if it goes sideways again, I've got the ability to be healed.
23:35.939 --> 23:40.048
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got the ability to receive what I need, the attention I need from someone.
23:40.028 --> 23:46.318
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, it's the difference between long-term, deep relationships versus the picking up stakes.
23:46.358 --> 23:53.529
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've got to always pick up and move a little bit further away, find another church, find another community, maybe even find another spouse, right?
23:53.629 --> 23:56.293
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that last one, man, they were just effective.
23:56.613 --> 23:59.337
[SPEAKER_01]: They send against me and it's like, they totally did.
23:59.858 --> 24:01.300
[SPEAKER_01]: And the next one's going to.
24:01.320 --> 24:08.331
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, if we don't learn how to deal with her, we just are never going to have that long and deep relationship experience that we are grateful.
24:08.311 --> 24:28.935
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's a huge gift to know what to do and to be able to walk in the relationship.
