WEBVTT
00:03.153 --> 00:18.210
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Reborn and eat in private podcasts, embracing the beauty and brokenness in your journey with God.
00:19.072 --> 00:20.014
[SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy this episode!
00:20.804 --> 00:32.340
[SPEAKER_02]: this is Duke Revard with Eden Project, joined by Todd Wormers in Phil Herndon, of Tin Man Ministries, excited to talk about guilt with you guys.
00:32.500 --> 00:33.742
[SPEAKER_02]: Excited to talk about guilt.
00:33.762 --> 00:36.185
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, guilt is an emotion that everybody knows.
00:36.586 --> 00:50.625
[SPEAKER_02]: It's actually one that probably maybe of all the ones we're going to talk about, Christians maybe have the most category for, because we talk about the gospel, we talk about the work of Christ, we talk about how essential it is that we have something to
00:50.605 --> 00:51.928
[SPEAKER_02]: some way to deal with our guilt.
00:52.529 --> 00:59.342
[SPEAKER_02]: And yet I think there is new odds here that you guys are going to bring that will shine even new and fresh light on guilt.
00:59.763 --> 01:00.946
[SPEAKER_02]: Now this will help our audience.
01:00.966 --> 01:09.643
[SPEAKER_02]: So just really excited as we continue in this series and really with all the ever present content helping people really understand the interior life.
01:09.623 --> 01:15.452
[SPEAKER_02]: so we can be fully present with ourselves and really have the foundation to then go be fully present with God or others.
01:16.233 --> 01:17.595
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really what we're after together.
01:17.635 --> 01:21.381
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why we're we're here having this conversation and excited to talk about guilt.
01:22.222 --> 01:25.688
[SPEAKER_02]: Todd, we'll start with you as when I'm feeling guilt, what's happening?
01:25.708 --> 01:29.674
[SPEAKER_01]: What's going on in a person's interior life?
01:29.654 --> 01:38.549
[SPEAKER_01]: gift that God gave us, or the feeling that God gave us to allow us to know we've done something wrong to break relationship with ourselves, to God or to other people.
01:38.669 --> 01:42.295
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's, you know, I think it is the gift of Holy Spirit for sure.
01:42.315 --> 01:50.749
[SPEAKER_01]: Like man, thank God for guilt, thank God that there's a thing in me that says, man, at that it's not okay, what you did is not okay.
01:50.769 --> 01:55.577
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's the feeling God gave us
01:55.557 --> 01:58.281
[SPEAKER_01]: violated them, violated my commands.
01:59.323 --> 02:01.386
[SPEAKER_01]: So that that that is what it is for me.
02:01.807 --> 02:12.805
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and it's said against some kind of objective standard like God's Law or the U.S. Law, or there's some standard of moral judgment integrity, whatever, and I've clearly not.
02:13.125 --> 02:14.127
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not hit that mark.
02:14.147 --> 02:14.848
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure that
02:15.098 --> 02:26.433
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, a lot of people, you know, come to us, I feel guilt, I feel shame, and so this is what I always tell people, like, here's how you know, if you're guilty of something or if it's shame, so a lot of people guilt and shame confuse.
02:27.013 --> 02:42.473
[SPEAKER_01]: So guilt is very, very objective, it's black or it's white, there's not much, you either know you've sinned or you know you haven't sinned, this shame is very subjective, and it's matter, so objective, black or white, there's not.
02:42.453 --> 02:45.652
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, your kids know when they've done something right or wrong.
02:46.718 --> 02:47.704
[SPEAKER_01]: This is very objective.
02:47.735 --> 03:17.337
[SPEAKER_02]: okay that's helpful so yeah the guy the police officer pulls you over he shows you the radar gun it says you were going 87 it's just kind of obvious that you were breaking the law which you're guilty yeah that's helpful feel how do you nuance that is as you're trying to describe to somebody maybe maybe people are maybe honest is fairly aware of guilt but what's happening in their life as they sort of wrestle with this this feeling this experience yeah Paul says in Romans chapter nine he says you know y'all and he's
03:17.317 --> 03:30.477
[SPEAKER_03]: He's Jewish, and he said, you know, even the Gentiles, but even the Gentiles recognize, on a, there's a level they recognize right and wrong, harm and not harm.
03:30.497 --> 03:40.573
[SPEAKER_03]: He says, even them is appealing to the church and Rome to say, look, there's something inside human beings that lights up, that activates.
03:40.553 --> 03:49.040
[SPEAKER_03]: When I've crossed a line, crossed a moral or ethical line that I know, I need to just stay on the side of something inside of me says, that's harmful.
03:49.981 --> 03:58.208
[SPEAKER_03]: And when you do something harmful, you need this feeling called guilt to let me know that not only am I limited, like shame, as Todd was saying.
03:58.709 --> 04:09.598
[SPEAKER_03]: But in my limitation, which is subjective, in my limitation, I have done something that crossed a line and caused harm to someone, to God.
04:09.578 --> 04:22.114
[SPEAKER_03]: I made the statement that I've sinned against God and Joseph in Genesis, Joseph said, I did not want to sin against God in that way with Potter for his wife.
04:22.194 --> 04:33.628
[SPEAKER_03]: And so ultimately, we know that when we have committed sin, we've committed harm that that is enough fence to God and that I've done out here in this world to someone.
04:33.608 --> 04:36.812
[SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting that you say that way because it's a relational effects.
04:37.512 --> 04:43.599
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not, I'm guilty of a wrong keystroke with my computer.
04:44.040 --> 04:47.564
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like there's something in relationship, actually.
04:47.624 --> 04:55.853
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's somebody on the other side of it in relationship who has essentially been harmed or disobeyed or some sever in relationship.
04:55.873 --> 04:56.333
[SPEAKER_02]: That's helpful.
04:56.493 --> 05:02.400
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I've ever quite put guilt squarely in the relational space.
05:02.380 --> 05:24.692
[SPEAKER_02]: a guilty maybe in other ways, but one of the nuance that I've heard is fall skill, so sometimes you will have people who feel guilty, that's the language they're using for the emotional state, how would you help us understand fall skill when somebody's really actually owning something that's not a moral offense, but they're experiencing an internally like it is.
05:25.128 --> 05:44.402
[SPEAKER_03]: Todd, I'm going to be flying home tonight and if there's some kind of delay in the flight for example, it would not be uncommon for like the gate agent to say, man, I feel go home and tell his wife or her husband or whoever, I feel so guilty about people having to wait for the flight and the kid.
05:44.382 --> 05:57.785
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's false guilt because you may have other feelings about it, but guilt is not what's happening there because there's not something in your conscience being activated that you did something that caused harm to all these passengers.
05:58.586 --> 06:06.019
[SPEAKER_03]: I think example of that false guilt is when I sign blame to myself or being the cause of harm that I didn't harm.
06:05.999 --> 06:07.381
[SPEAKER_03]: but I have feelings about it.
06:07.421 --> 06:08.402
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what to call.
06:08.462 --> 06:14.690
[SPEAKER_03]: I haven't feelings about all these people sitting at the gate and they're not going to get home to Nashville tonight and up upfield guilty about that.
06:14.710 --> 06:24.924
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, you may feel fear, you may feel a dissessence of shame around the limitation, but it's not guilt because it didn't do anything that foisted harm on these people.
06:25.184 --> 06:25.705
[SPEAKER_02]: That's helpful.
06:26.065 --> 06:34.096
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I've counseled people before from pretty dysfunctional families where maybe even a parent assigned a guilt that was not on the child.
06:34.176 --> 06:35.938
[SPEAKER_02]: So look what you made me do.
06:35.918 --> 06:56.577
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, the adult acts out in some way, but then attempts to manipulate the child or someone else with assigning that guilt to them, and so if you've lived an environment where that's been done to you over and over, I can see how somebody's lines would get a little blurred about what am I actually responsible for and what am I not responsible for around true guilt and false guilt.
06:56.557 --> 06:58.439
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, yeah, that's a helpful distinction.
06:58.459 --> 07:02.344
[SPEAKER_03]: Just very common Duke in dysfunctional families.
07:02.364 --> 07:19.645
[SPEAKER_03]: We had a kind of a lunch conversation yesterday around families who have addiction in the family and what happens in the family, and it's very, very often it's very common for a family with classic addiction or, you know, rage-a-holism or control freaks, as we said earlier today in another podcast.
07:19.625 --> 07:27.635
[SPEAKER_03]: for the child to walk with my homie and say, man, I just feel so guilty for how hard my mom had it because my dad was so unreasonable, they're vice versa.
07:28.136 --> 07:34.084
[SPEAKER_03]: And you hear that very often from unhealthy families, the child will leave and then the child may now be 58 years old.
07:34.585 --> 07:38.730
[SPEAKER_03]: Talking to you, but I just feel guilty and they'll take on guilt that isn't theirs because of
07:38.710 --> 07:40.473
[SPEAKER_03]: with the literature calls a.c.a.
07:40.553 --> 07:50.811
[SPEAKER_03]: syndrome, adult Taliban call is a syndrome, which I just take on the fault guilt of anything that happens it has caused someone to have feelings or had to have some kind of heartache.
07:51.271 --> 07:51.852
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very common.
07:52.273 --> 07:53.115
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
07:53.135 --> 07:58.504
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so there's a lot of people who need some help to really identify when is it legitimate guilt and when it's not.
07:59.265 --> 08:02.811
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about the impairment of guilt if I won't really deal honestly with it.
08:02.791 --> 08:11.030
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, maybe it came up, you said it flashes inside of us a little bit our conscience says this is a moral offense, but I'm not willing to deal with it.
08:11.050 --> 08:13.536
[SPEAKER_02]: What does the impairments of guilt look like in relationship?
08:14.157 --> 08:22.015
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the first thing I would say is oftentimes the impairment would be, again, when we talked a little bit earlier about the toxic chain piece.
08:21.995 --> 08:43.648
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, with guilt it is it becomes I made it because I made a mistake I am now the mistake I've made because I'm the mistake I made I'm no longer lovable, likable, attachable, wanted and so then we carry that with us That nobody really wants me because I am the very mistake I didn't want to cause I caused it And now I'm not worth being forgiven
08:43.898 --> 08:48.210
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so it becomes an identity and we won't process it, we don't deal pursuit forgiveness.
08:49.854 --> 08:50.275
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
08:50.295 --> 08:59.781
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the reason the impairment as we call that is the same for shame and guilt because both of those feelings have to do with some sort of limitation.
08:59.761 --> 09:16.048
[SPEAKER_03]: have a subjective limitation about some things I'm not very good at and have an objective limitation I mean, I mess up, I sin, I make mistakes, I have oversight, I cause harm, I don't mean to cause, but if I'm not dealing with that identification and exploration and expression,
09:16.028 --> 09:22.858
[SPEAKER_03]: of my guilt, and it turns into the same thing that changed that my human limitation turned into.
09:22.878 --> 09:35.657
[SPEAKER_03]: I did something wrong, therefore I am, and then the feeling blank and adequate ridiculous done stupid, whatever the horrible words are that we put in those blanks when we make a mistake or have sent.
09:35.924 --> 09:41.369
[SPEAKER_02]: If that continues for a long, long time, let's say I go a decade without really confessing sin.
09:41.529 --> 09:43.271
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't, maybe even know the gospel.
09:43.311 --> 09:45.713
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how to apply the gospel, sanctification.
09:46.293 --> 09:49.436
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to end up in other isolation around that.
09:49.837 --> 09:53.059
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's think of it, Todd Wayne on this, too.
09:53.119 --> 09:55.842
[SPEAKER_03]: It's shameful, shameful word called shamelessness.
09:55.922 --> 10:05.931
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like if I go so long without recognizing sin without wrongdoing, I will become
10:05.911 --> 10:28.341
[SPEAKER_03]: call shamelessness in which I'm not going to admit either internally or out here I've ever had any wrongdoing because I'm so wrapped up in the insulation of a lack of confession both of need and of offense that I live in such a way that I'm perfect and there's a prime example and I don't say this at all to
10:28.321 --> 10:29.783
[SPEAKER_03]: to laugh about this happening.
10:29.803 --> 10:31.365
[SPEAKER_03]: We were very often in treatment.
10:31.405 --> 10:37.633
[SPEAKER_03]: We would have, I say, guys because we treated men, men only in their families, but the men were the actual patients.
10:38.334 --> 10:42.239
[SPEAKER_03]: A man would come in and he has got absolute wreckage behind him.
10:42.279 --> 10:48.507
[SPEAKER_03]: Family, families, job, jobs behind him in the wake of addicted disease.
10:48.655 --> 11:02.209
[SPEAKER_03]: And then he would, because he's not aware of his need to confess, would begin to dispense advice around how to raise children or how to be a husband or how to run a business or how to do this in that as like, man, this is where that's shameless.
11:02.269 --> 11:08.835
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you're the last guy, not to shame you, but you're the last guy that needs to be giving any kind of feedback around that.
11:09.356 --> 11:13.600
[SPEAKER_03]: But shamelessness, a person can become, and I've done it.
11:13.580 --> 11:29.125
[SPEAKER_03]: often can become so insulated by their lack of confession, which is the key to paying attention to guilt, that I will start saying things just for my need to say it, to remain in my insulation, it's as shameless.
11:29.273 --> 11:31.757
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's some denial in self-registerness and all of that.
11:31.777 --> 11:33.280
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not really seeing myself clearly.
11:33.300 --> 11:34.562
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, I don't know.
11:34.582 --> 11:35.985
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a story of Luke.
11:37.427 --> 11:41.314
[SPEAKER_01]: There in Luke 18, where it's the Pharisee and the Tax collector and the Pharisee.
11:41.354 --> 11:42.516
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just glad I'm like him.
11:42.717 --> 11:44.279
[SPEAKER_01]: No, you just like that, man.
11:44.720 --> 11:45.882
[SPEAKER_01]: That was...
11:45.862 --> 12:00.883
[SPEAKER_01]: the Pharisees were so shameless and they live shameless lives now they live shamelessly through performance I got to perform I got to make sure everyone else around me performs but there is no relationship in the performance and that's what we've been talking about.
12:00.863 --> 12:06.008
[SPEAKER_01]: The guilt, when we've done something wrong, it's the thing that breaks relationship.
12:06.109 --> 12:26.230
[SPEAKER_01]: We need forgiveness to restore the relationship, but the Pharisee lived in that place of, I got to keep performing it to belong a matter, and that's what he then looks at the tax collector and he's like, oh, I've just, thank God, that person, so that's what we get to that place of shamelessness of judging other people I remember being in treatment.
12:26.581 --> 12:28.966
[SPEAKER_01]: I said it so I can speak to me.
12:29.026 --> 12:43.257
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember watching the news and this lady had, I had to really grow to a story but she had killed her baby for drugs and I remember coming in and processing that being angry with the lady and you know I was judging the lady and
12:43.237 --> 12:54.640
[SPEAKER_01]: Bill said, just like her, I was like, what, and he said, you know, you're one decision away from making that same choice in your sin, in your addiction, and I was like, man, that is so true.
12:54.660 --> 13:00.351
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm one decision away from being shameless that leads me to the very thing I was judging that lady for.
13:00.331 --> 13:11.019
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, Shane was this is it close to a seared conscience when we see the scriptures idea of a seared conscience somebody who's just gotten to the place where they're no longer sensitive to spirit.
13:11.060 --> 13:12.945
[SPEAKER_02]: They're no longer sensitive to that feeling of you.
13:13.887 --> 13:16.855
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, and there is a
13:16.835 --> 13:20.139
[SPEAKER_03]: story that covers the gamut of what we're talking about.
13:20.179 --> 13:40.163
[SPEAKER_03]: David, King David, the Psalmist, most of the Psalms and the King, and the slayer of Goliath, he, Nathan came to him to confront him about this story, this allegory, this fable, about this guy who was just shameless and came in and was just killing this precious lamb that belonged to someone else.
13:40.223 --> 13:45.930
[SPEAKER_03]: David is like, man, that guy, that guy ought to be in
13:45.910 --> 13:51.200
[SPEAKER_03]: As a David was in his shamelessness, he had committed adultery and had impregnated batchy about it.
13:51.220 --> 14:08.813
[SPEAKER_03]: But wedlock and had her husband killed, and yet when he heard a story that he believed to be hypothetical, or he believed to be happening somewhere else, in his shamelessness, he said, man, that pointing, you know, the old AA adages, I'm pointing this way, I got three back at me.
14:08.793 --> 14:18.603
[SPEAKER_03]: He didn't catch the three back at me part because of shamelessness and so he's railing on this person The story and then Nathan brings him will David that to you.
14:18.643 --> 14:34.378
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's where we see David Asking for the forgiveness in Psalm 32 is a it's a brutal Psalm about the human condition When we're not confessing our guilt before the Lord David said when I kept silent over that
14:34.527 --> 14:41.717
[SPEAKER_03]: When I didn't say a word about when I did not make confession, my Davidness, my essence was oozing out of me.
14:41.757 --> 14:44.121
[SPEAKER_03]: I was wasting away at my bones.
14:44.241 --> 14:47.586
[SPEAKER_03]: My very essence was leaving completely the lost myself.
14:48.387 --> 14:53.835
[SPEAKER_03]: In my silence, in this shamelessness and toxic shame of what I had done, it becomes so seared.
14:53.815 --> 15:03.531
[SPEAKER_03]: That I could hear a story about someone doing way this side of what I did as an action and immediately jumping into what that God deserves.
15:04.252 --> 15:10.221
[SPEAKER_03]: But when I make confession God began the I could see the beginning of God's restoration process to me.
15:10.502 --> 15:15.650
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a great segue to the need that we have when we feel guilt and the gift of it.
15:16.011 --> 15:17.814
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm moving in the right direction with my guilt.
15:17.834 --> 15:18.675
[SPEAKER_02]: What does that look like?
15:18.908 --> 15:27.720
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's, well, is confession, agreeing with God as to the profound offense and no R.C.
15:27.760 --> 15:29.382
[SPEAKER_03]: Sprouls has cosmic treason.
15:29.442 --> 15:30.463
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what sin is.
15:30.543 --> 15:38.094
[SPEAKER_03]: And David is like, man, I'm aware that I have committed treason against the Lord and creator of the universe.
15:38.154 --> 15:42.199
[SPEAKER_03]: And the first step is that agreement with God.
15:42.179 --> 15:53.312
[SPEAKER_03]: to be able to say, this is not just what I have done, but I'm recognizing an emotional and breach of relational level of just how it's treating this is.
15:55.053 --> 16:02.822
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it goes what, you know, the difference between what assert conscience and confession is what Paul says and second Corinthians, right?
16:02.842 --> 16:06.646
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, worldly sorrow doesn't really do anything for you.
16:06.707 --> 16:09.790
[SPEAKER_01]: It's godly guilt that leads to repentance.
16:09.905 --> 16:32.047
[SPEAKER_01]: It's that godly guilt that leads us to a place of like repentance, and I don't know where I picked this up at, but I won't say it's mine, but I read and it says that repentance will lead us to forgiveness, forgiveness will lead us to reconciliation, reconciliation, religious to restore relationship, which is ultimately forgiveness.
16:32.087 --> 16:35.490
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know where I picked that up from, but
16:35.470 --> 16:37.655
[SPEAKER_01]: that is what we need.
16:37.675 --> 16:38.457
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the gift.
16:38.558 --> 16:40.142
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh man, I can be forgiven.
16:40.222 --> 16:45.455
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, thank God for guilt because the feeling of guilt says there is a God that will forgive me.
16:45.475 --> 16:47.139
[SPEAKER_01]: There's people around me that will forgive me.
16:47.159 --> 16:52.753
[SPEAKER_01]: That forgiveness will ultimately lead to freedom, freedom back in relationship with God and myself and other people.
16:52.733 --> 16:59.864
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's beautiful as you're talking about a serious conscience and we're talking about, you know, Psalm 51, David sang, creating me a clean heart.
17:01.246 --> 17:02.728
[SPEAKER_02]: It's almost like my heart was hardened.
17:02.768 --> 17:03.850
[SPEAKER_02]: My heart was seared.
17:03.890 --> 17:07.215
[SPEAKER_02]: My heart was just in the wrong place as it relates to my son.
17:07.235 --> 17:12.463
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, give me a new soft heart, give me a different disposition in relationship.
17:12.443 --> 17:13.884
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be reconciled in a relationship.
17:13.924 --> 17:16.126
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to do life shameless apart from people.
17:16.627 --> 17:19.990
[SPEAKER_02]: Not really looking at the impact of what that is.
17:20.510 --> 17:21.391
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about freedom.
17:21.771 --> 17:24.154
[SPEAKER_02]: You talked about Psalm 32, talked about wasting away.
17:24.194 --> 17:29.538
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of language around captivity, being enslaved to sin and the scriptures.
17:29.578 --> 17:33.502
[SPEAKER_02]: We know, I think even experientially, we've all lived someone enslaved to sin.
17:33.602 --> 17:35.183
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a helpful metaphor.
17:36.004 --> 17:38.066
[SPEAKER_02]: What is freedom like?
17:38.567 --> 17:42.450
[SPEAKER_02]: How do we understand freedom around confession?
17:42.430 --> 17:54.625
[SPEAKER_03]: If you, just for an example, if I have sin against you, Duke, and I've done something, and even if you don't know I've done it, I've gone out here and just said terrible things about you.
17:55.006 --> 17:56.087
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a sin against you.
17:56.127 --> 17:59.271
[SPEAKER_03]: Even if you don't know it, I know it.
17:59.812 --> 18:07.982
[SPEAKER_03]: And as long as I'm not confessing that sin, I'm in bondage to that secret, because
18:07.962 --> 18:34.678
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I'll walk around and if I know you and Todd are going to have coffee and Todd may have called wind at this I'm going to have to work really hard to make sure you to either don't ever have that coffee or I'm going to be at that coffee too making sure I steer that conversation in certain ways and so it becomes this draining experience I've got to be hyper vigilant with get just back to anxiety and if we could kind of sew two feelings
18:34.658 --> 18:40.508
[SPEAKER_03]: If Todd's not cooperating, because he doesn't know I'm in a conspiracy in my own, if he's not cooperating, I could rage at Todd.
18:40.528 --> 18:42.251
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, man, you don't have to talk to Duke about that.
18:42.692 --> 18:48.422
[SPEAKER_03]: Or hey, he, you know, I start living this false role this false self out here, because I've got no freedom.
18:49.083 --> 18:54.693
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't even have the freedom for two guys I care about to have coffee together, because I've got a secret, because I've harm one of them.
18:54.713 --> 18:55.695
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, I can't let that out.
18:56.276 --> 18:57.458
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but it's so helpful, bondage.
18:58.119 --> 18:58.219
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
18:58.418 --> 18:58.959
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
18:58.979 --> 19:00.423
[SPEAKER_02]: What does it look like in a community?
19:00.483 --> 19:03.370
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a community that knows how to process guilt well.
19:04.533 --> 19:11.972
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, first off, what is the, what are some of the preconditions that have to be there for a community to even be a safe place to show up with guilt?
19:12.965 --> 19:25.729
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the first is, you have to have a place of confession, but in the confession, you have to, I mean, you just have to know your own story, your own self of where, you know, at the foot of the cross, they say is all level.
19:26.410 --> 19:31.941
[SPEAKER_01]: I think so often, we can hear one person's sin versus another person's sin and we go ahead and rank sin.
19:31.981 --> 19:33.724
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, sin is sin and sin.
19:34.042 --> 19:47.608
[SPEAKER_01]: I think so often we don't allow for that in the church for sure, and so I can come and confess about line, but I can't confess about, there's just big three, you can't confess about it.
19:47.628 --> 19:52.017
[SPEAKER_01]: So without confession, he said you'll never have freedom without
19:51.997 --> 19:58.665
[SPEAKER_01]: That place of confession in the rooms of SAAA, they say, you know, you're sick as your secrets.
19:59.486 --> 20:01.949
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you have a secret, you're going to manage the secret.
20:01.969 --> 20:07.676
[SPEAKER_01]: And so as long as you're managing without confession, you will even live in bondage.
20:08.037 --> 20:12.362
[SPEAKER_01]: But it is, can we create safe places that we can bring our hearts to?
20:12.382 --> 20:14.905
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that we can have correction around.
20:15.266 --> 20:16.387
[SPEAKER_01]: We need correction and so.
20:16.407 --> 20:17.869
[SPEAKER_01]: And like my kids do.
20:17.849 --> 20:30.964
[SPEAKER_01]: Sin, I need to correct their behavior, but I got to get to like they've got to be in a safe place that they can fail they can sin and there's correction and there's love and there's kindness around those those spaces.
20:31.285 --> 20:44.160
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's helpful Phil, we talk about relational habitats and the Eden was a relational habitat What do you see as the factors that contribute to a community becoming the kind of environment that is safe to come and confess guilt
20:44.140 --> 20:51.240
[SPEAKER_02]: Even the really ugly stuff that you say is maybe off the chart in some places, how do we create those kind of communities of safe spaces?
20:52.122 --> 20:59.162
[SPEAKER_03]: If you would imagine if there's a community of people would just say 20 in a room for an even number.
20:59.142 --> 21:04.567
[SPEAKER_03]: Imagine those people with each person has a partition between them and everyone else in the room.
21:05.087 --> 21:19.500
[SPEAKER_03]: It's 20 entities in one room and what creates those walls to come down is confession, combined with confidentiality, which links to intimacy into me see.
21:19.580 --> 21:20.942
[SPEAKER_03]: I take you into my confidence.
21:20.962 --> 21:22.203
[SPEAKER_03]: You take me into yours.
21:22.843 --> 21:29.149
[SPEAKER_03]: And so as the walls lower and I make confession, if you hold
21:29.129 --> 21:39.348
[SPEAKER_03]: like Todd said, including with correction, but if you hold that with me in confidence, and I take in my confidence, you take me into yours, the word confidence means with fidelity.
21:39.849 --> 21:41.933
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, confidence, it means with fidelity.
21:41.993 --> 21:52.673
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, if I, if you can keep this, if you can be loyal to me, not in terms of keeping my sin a secret, but if you can be loyal to me, so I will hold that under that with you,
21:52.653 --> 21:54.116
[SPEAKER_03]: Duke, I'll hold on that with you, Todd.
21:54.136 --> 21:56.060
[SPEAKER_03]: Would you feel I'll hold on to it with you?
21:56.100 --> 22:03.775
[SPEAKER_03]: And those walls lower, and that becomes a reinforcing agent in any given room in the body of Christ.
22:03.795 --> 22:08.304
[SPEAKER_03]: As those walls go down, and you'll have people that are locking arms.
22:08.324 --> 22:13.033
[SPEAKER_03]: If you look at rope, the walls go down, and the rope shows up.
22:13.073 --> 22:15.117
[SPEAKER_03]: Everybody holding on the rope with one another.
22:15.097 --> 22:21.023
[SPEAKER_03]: saying this is where I am and I know where you are because we're holding the same rope together together in this.
22:21.063 --> 22:22.585
[SPEAKER_03]: That's how those communities out of love.
22:23.406 --> 22:28.311
[SPEAKER_03]: Kurt Thompson's wording and the groups they do at his practice, they're called confessional communities.
22:28.991 --> 22:40.463
[SPEAKER_03]: So these communities gather and they get in that room and they lower those walls and they look at one another stories and they process the story and they confront one another yet they end up holding the same rope together.
22:40.443 --> 22:44.311
[SPEAKER_03]: And one falls, the others can pull and voice versa.
22:44.331 --> 22:50.304
[SPEAKER_02]: I love even the language of first John one, this idea that if we'll confess our sense to one another, we'll have fellowship.
22:50.705 --> 22:52.108
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a kind of fellowship.
22:52.128 --> 23:00.426
[SPEAKER_02]: But you sometimes see it, well, you see it a lot in the recovery communities because everybody is practicing confession in that kind of an environment that they have a lot of
23:00.406 --> 23:04.933
[SPEAKER_02]: friendship, a lot of depth of relationship, a lot of a two-minute attachment happens in those communities.
23:05.414 --> 23:27.527
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe the flip side is what you were talking about with the Pharisees, would imagine the performance and the pretending of the Pharisees, probably a pretty lonely community, not a lot of trust, not a lot of depth of friendship and fellowship, because they're going against the grain of what even First John 1 says has to happen to have real fellowship as sinners who absolutely need a Savior who are just like one
23:27.507 --> 23:31.532
[SPEAKER_02]: They're really honestly pretty level at the cross in terms of their need for Jesus.
23:32.413 --> 23:34.655
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, those communities over time just feel really different.
23:35.436 --> 23:41.523
[SPEAKER_02]: What can be a little bit tricky is in a church, maybe even a family, when we're saying the right words.
23:42.024 --> 23:43.225
[SPEAKER_02]: We're saying gospel words.
23:44.086 --> 23:49.853
[SPEAKER_02]: We're talking about the gospel, but it still doesn't feel like a conventional community where you can really show up.
23:49.833 --> 24:08.668
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, and there's the cognitive dissonance of like, hey, we're saying all the right stuff, but I'm not going to be the first one to go because this is still a performing community that feels like you kind of have to be religious, you kind of have to have all your stuff in a pile, and if you don't, you're going to get put out somehow, or you won't be on a leadership track, or you'll,
24:08.648 --> 24:14.719
[SPEAKER_02]: you'll be at sideline or some, there'll be some kind of real cost that will be associated with that.
24:14.759 --> 24:20.609
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, when I think about churches, I'm like, hey, there's what you're preaching, but like, what does it feel like to be a part of it?
24:20.910 --> 24:23.314
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's what Paul says in Galatians, right?
24:23.334 --> 24:28.463
[SPEAKER_01]: He says, if anyone's caught in sin, let the body, let you who are spiritual.
24:28.443 --> 24:31.193
[SPEAKER_01]: Restore them with a spirit of gentleness.
24:31.715 --> 24:32.498
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have to have both.
24:32.518 --> 24:39.685
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to have a spirit like my desire in confession and repentance with another human is I need to restore them
24:40.424 --> 24:42.508
[SPEAKER_01]: but I have to do it in the lens of being gentle.
24:42.909 --> 25:01.268
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think those two things, I don't think there really is, and that's the grace of my story, I had a church that I fell victim and sin, but they did it with a lot of grace, did a lot of patience, but they did it with gentleness, but their long-term goal was true restoration.
25:01.248 --> 25:22.727
[SPEAKER_01]: And they did, they took two and a half years, but they restored me, I lost my job, but they were committed to the restoration process because they knew God would had called me and gifted me somewhere, but when I've repented and walked that journey, they did they restored me back into full-time ministry, brought me back and blessed me as a pastor again, reordained me.
25:23.407 --> 25:30.073
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's the, I don't think you don't hear that often, that story in the church is slim to none.
25:30.053 --> 25:33.218
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like a real story of gentleness and restoration.
25:33.519 --> 25:42.214
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a lot of fear and triumphalism in that idea that our church has to be exceptional and our church has to have really have it together, our leaders have it together.
25:42.234 --> 25:48.104
[SPEAKER_02]: Anytime we see evidence of the contrary, we've got to sweep down the rug and get rid of that person quickly and pretend that didn't happen.
25:48.785 --> 25:55.977
[SPEAKER_02]: As opposed to, you know, this confessional community works, I don't know, like we all absolutely need the gospel, need Christ.
25:55.957 --> 26:13.797
[SPEAKER_02]: And at times, some of them are going to go deeper into Rebelluter Center, have broken us, but it just means there might require a longer time horizon for us to heal or for us to repent, but we're committed to the short-term long-term health of everybody involved and I think it's a beautiful picture of a healthy community.
26:13.977 --> 26:17.941
[SPEAKER_02]: Really, I hear a lot of gospel foundations in that kind of picture.
26:17.961 --> 26:21.405
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you know, you don't get there without a lot of gospel clarity.
26:21.605 --> 26:23.007
[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you for this.
26:23.087 --> 26:25.069
[SPEAKER_02]: This has been super helpful for us.
26:25.690 --> 26:28.377
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the Reformed Podcast.
26:28.878 --> 26:38.443
[SPEAKER_00]: If you like what you heard, hit that subscribe button, share it with your friends, leave us our rating, and check out our other resources at theeatenproject.com.
26:39.365 --> 26:39.987
[SPEAKER_00]: Peace!
00:03.153 --> 00:18.210
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Reborn and eat in private podcasts, embracing the beauty and brokenness in your journey with God.
00:19.072 --> 00:20.014
[SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy this episode!
00:20.804 --> 00:32.340
[SPEAKER_02]: this is Duke Revard with Eden Project, joined by Todd Wormers in Phil Herndon, of Tin Man Ministries, excited to talk about guilt with you guys.
00:32.500 --> 00:33.742
[SPEAKER_02]: Excited to talk about guilt.
00:33.762 --> 00:36.185
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, guilt is an emotion that everybody knows.
00:36.586 --> 00:50.625
[SPEAKER_02]: It's actually one that probably maybe of all the ones we're going to talk about, Christians maybe have the most category for, because we talk about the gospel, we talk about the work of Christ, we talk about how essential it is that we have something to
00:50.605 --> 00:51.928
[SPEAKER_02]: some way to deal with our guilt.
00:52.529 --> 00:59.342
[SPEAKER_02]: And yet I think there is new odds here that you guys are going to bring that will shine even new and fresh light on guilt.
00:59.763 --> 01:00.946
[SPEAKER_02]: Now this will help our audience.
01:00.966 --> 01:09.643
[SPEAKER_02]: So just really excited as we continue in this series and really with all the ever present content helping people really understand the interior life.
01:09.623 --> 01:15.452
[SPEAKER_02]: so we can be fully present with ourselves and really have the foundation to then go be fully present with God or others.
01:16.233 --> 01:17.595
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really what we're after together.
01:17.635 --> 01:21.381
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why we're we're here having this conversation and excited to talk about guilt.
01:22.222 --> 01:25.688
[SPEAKER_02]: Todd, we'll start with you as when I'm feeling guilt, what's happening?
01:25.708 --> 01:29.674
[SPEAKER_01]: What's going on in a person's interior life?
01:29.654 --> 01:38.549
[SPEAKER_01]: gift that God gave us, or the feeling that God gave us to allow us to know we've done something wrong to break relationship with ourselves, to God or to other people.
01:38.669 --> 01:42.295
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's, you know, I think it is the gift of Holy Spirit for sure.
01:42.315 --> 01:50.749
[SPEAKER_01]: Like man, thank God for guilt, thank God that there's a thing in me that says, man, at that it's not okay, what you did is not okay.
01:50.769 --> 01:55.577
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's the feeling God gave us
01:55.557 --> 01:58.281
[SPEAKER_01]: violated them, violated my commands.
01:59.323 --> 02:01.386
[SPEAKER_01]: So that that that is what it is for me.
02:01.807 --> 02:12.805
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and it's said against some kind of objective standard like God's Law or the U.S. Law, or there's some standard of moral judgment integrity, whatever, and I've clearly not.
02:13.125 --> 02:14.127
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not hit that mark.
02:14.147 --> 02:14.848
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure that
02:15.098 --> 02:26.433
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, a lot of people, you know, come to us, I feel guilt, I feel shame, and so this is what I always tell people, like, here's how you know, if you're guilty of something or if it's shame, so a lot of people guilt and shame confuse.
02:27.013 --> 02:42.473
[SPEAKER_01]: So guilt is very, very objective, it's black or it's white, there's not much, you either know you've sinned or you know you haven't sinned, this shame is very subjective, and it's matter, so objective, black or white, there's not.
02:42.453 --> 02:45.652
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, your kids know when they've done something right or wrong.
02:46.718 --> 02:47.704
[SPEAKER_01]: This is very objective.
02:47.735 --> 03:17.337
[SPEAKER_02]: okay that's helpful so yeah the guy the police officer pulls you over he shows you the radar gun it says you were going 87 it's just kind of obvious that you were breaking the law which you're guilty yeah that's helpful feel how do you nuance that is as you're trying to describe to somebody maybe maybe people are maybe honest is fairly aware of guilt but what's happening in their life as they sort of wrestle with this this feeling this experience yeah Paul says in Romans chapter nine he says you know y'all and he's
03:17.317 --> 03:30.477
[SPEAKER_03]: He's Jewish, and he said, you know, even the Gentiles, but even the Gentiles recognize, on a, there's a level they recognize right and wrong, harm and not harm.
03:30.497 --> 03:40.573
[SPEAKER_03]: He says, even them is appealing to the church and Rome to say, look, there's something inside human beings that lights up, that activates.
03:40.553 --> 03:49.040
[SPEAKER_03]: When I've crossed a line, crossed a moral or ethical line that I know, I need to just stay on the side of something inside of me says, that's harmful.
03:49.981 --> 03:58.208
[SPEAKER_03]: And when you do something harmful, you need this feeling called guilt to let me know that not only am I limited, like shame, as Todd was saying.
03:58.709 --> 04:09.598
[SPEAKER_03]: But in my limitation, which is subjective, in my limitation, I have done something that crossed a line and caused harm to someone, to God.
04:09.578 --> 04:22.114
[SPEAKER_03]: I made the statement that I've sinned against God and Joseph in Genesis, Joseph said, I did not want to sin against God in that way with Potter for his wife.
04:22.194 --> 04:33.628
[SPEAKER_03]: And so ultimately, we know that when we have committed sin, we've committed harm that that is enough fence to God and that I've done out here in this world to someone.
04:33.608 --> 04:36.812
[SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting that you say that way because it's a relational effects.
04:37.512 --> 04:43.599
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not, I'm guilty of a wrong keystroke with my computer.
04:44.040 --> 04:47.564
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like there's something in relationship, actually.
04:47.624 --> 04:55.853
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's somebody on the other side of it in relationship who has essentially been harmed or disobeyed or some sever in relationship.
04:55.873 --> 04:56.333
[SPEAKER_02]: That's helpful.
04:56.493 --> 05:02.400
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I've ever quite put guilt squarely in the relational space.
05:02.380 --> 05:24.692
[SPEAKER_02]: a guilty maybe in other ways, but one of the nuance that I've heard is fall skill, so sometimes you will have people who feel guilty, that's the language they're using for the emotional state, how would you help us understand fall skill when somebody's really actually owning something that's not a moral offense, but they're experiencing an internally like it is.
05:25.128 --> 05:44.402
[SPEAKER_03]: Todd, I'm going to be flying home tonight and if there's some kind of delay in the flight for example, it would not be uncommon for like the gate agent to say, man, I feel go home and tell his wife or her husband or whoever, I feel so guilty about people having to wait for the flight and the kid.
05:44.382 --> 05:57.785
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's false guilt because you may have other feelings about it, but guilt is not what's happening there because there's not something in your conscience being activated that you did something that caused harm to all these passengers.
05:58.586 --> 06:06.019
[SPEAKER_03]: I think example of that false guilt is when I sign blame to myself or being the cause of harm that I didn't harm.
06:05.999 --> 06:07.381
[SPEAKER_03]: but I have feelings about it.
06:07.421 --> 06:08.402
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what to call.
06:08.462 --> 06:14.690
[SPEAKER_03]: I haven't feelings about all these people sitting at the gate and they're not going to get home to Nashville tonight and up upfield guilty about that.
06:14.710 --> 06:24.924
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, you may feel fear, you may feel a dissessence of shame around the limitation, but it's not guilt because it didn't do anything that foisted harm on these people.
06:25.184 --> 06:25.705
[SPEAKER_02]: That's helpful.
06:26.065 --> 06:34.096
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I've counseled people before from pretty dysfunctional families where maybe even a parent assigned a guilt that was not on the child.
06:34.176 --> 06:35.938
[SPEAKER_02]: So look what you made me do.
06:35.918 --> 06:56.577
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, the adult acts out in some way, but then attempts to manipulate the child or someone else with assigning that guilt to them, and so if you've lived an environment where that's been done to you over and over, I can see how somebody's lines would get a little blurred about what am I actually responsible for and what am I not responsible for around true guilt and false guilt.
06:56.557 --> 06:58.439
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, yeah, that's a helpful distinction.
06:58.459 --> 07:02.344
[SPEAKER_03]: Just very common Duke in dysfunctional families.
07:02.364 --> 07:19.645
[SPEAKER_03]: We had a kind of a lunch conversation yesterday around families who have addiction in the family and what happens in the family, and it's very, very often it's very common for a family with classic addiction or, you know, rage-a-holism or control freaks, as we said earlier today in another podcast.
07:19.625 --> 07:27.635
[SPEAKER_03]: for the child to walk with my homie and say, man, I just feel so guilty for how hard my mom had it because my dad was so unreasonable, they're vice versa.
07:28.136 --> 07:34.084
[SPEAKER_03]: And you hear that very often from unhealthy families, the child will leave and then the child may now be 58 years old.
07:34.585 --> 07:38.730
[SPEAKER_03]: Talking to you, but I just feel guilty and they'll take on guilt that isn't theirs because of
07:38.710 --> 07:40.473
[SPEAKER_03]: with the literature calls a.c.a.
07:40.553 --> 07:50.811
[SPEAKER_03]: syndrome, adult Taliban call is a syndrome, which I just take on the fault guilt of anything that happens it has caused someone to have feelings or had to have some kind of heartache.
07:51.271 --> 07:51.852
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very common.
07:52.273 --> 07:53.115
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
07:53.135 --> 07:58.504
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so there's a lot of people who need some help to really identify when is it legitimate guilt and when it's not.
07:59.265 --> 08:02.811
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about the impairment of guilt if I won't really deal honestly with it.
08:02.791 --> 08:11.030
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, maybe it came up, you said it flashes inside of us a little bit our conscience says this is a moral offense, but I'm not willing to deal with it.
08:11.050 --> 08:13.536
[SPEAKER_02]: What does the impairments of guilt look like in relationship?
08:14.157 --> 08:22.015
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the first thing I would say is oftentimes the impairment would be, again, when we talked a little bit earlier about the toxic chain piece.
08:21.995 --> 08:43.648
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, with guilt it is it becomes I made it because I made a mistake I am now the mistake I've made because I'm the mistake I made I'm no longer lovable, likable, attachable, wanted and so then we carry that with us That nobody really wants me because I am the very mistake I didn't want to cause I caused it And now I'm not worth being forgiven
08:43.898 --> 08:48.210
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so it becomes an identity and we won't process it, we don't deal pursuit forgiveness.
08:49.854 --> 08:50.275
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
08:50.295 --> 08:59.781
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the reason the impairment as we call that is the same for shame and guilt because both of those feelings have to do with some sort of limitation.
08:59.761 --> 09:16.048
[SPEAKER_03]: have a subjective limitation about some things I'm not very good at and have an objective limitation I mean, I mess up, I sin, I make mistakes, I have oversight, I cause harm, I don't mean to cause, but if I'm not dealing with that identification and exploration and expression,
09:16.028 --> 09:22.858
[SPEAKER_03]: of my guilt, and it turns into the same thing that changed that my human limitation turned into.
09:22.878 --> 09:35.657
[SPEAKER_03]: I did something wrong, therefore I am, and then the feeling blank and adequate ridiculous done stupid, whatever the horrible words are that we put in those blanks when we make a mistake or have sent.
09:35.924 --> 09:41.369
[SPEAKER_02]: If that continues for a long, long time, let's say I go a decade without really confessing sin.
09:41.529 --> 09:43.271
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't, maybe even know the gospel.
09:43.311 --> 09:45.713
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how to apply the gospel, sanctification.
09:46.293 --> 09:49.436
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to end up in other isolation around that.
09:49.837 --> 09:53.059
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's think of it, Todd Wayne on this, too.
09:53.119 --> 09:55.842
[SPEAKER_03]: It's shameful, shameful word called shamelessness.
09:55.922 --> 10:05.931
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like if I go so long without recognizing sin without wrongdoing, I will become
10:05.911 --> 10:28.341
[SPEAKER_03]: call shamelessness in which I'm not going to admit either internally or out here I've ever had any wrongdoing because I'm so wrapped up in the insulation of a lack of confession both of need and of offense that I live in such a way that I'm perfect and there's a prime example and I don't say this at all to
10:28.321 --> 10:29.783
[SPEAKER_03]: to laugh about this happening.
10:29.803 --> 10:31.365
[SPEAKER_03]: We were very often in treatment.
10:31.405 --> 10:37.633
[SPEAKER_03]: We would have, I say, guys because we treated men, men only in their families, but the men were the actual patients.
10:38.334 --> 10:42.239
[SPEAKER_03]: A man would come in and he has got absolute wreckage behind him.
10:42.279 --> 10:48.507
[SPEAKER_03]: Family, families, job, jobs behind him in the wake of addicted disease.
10:48.655 --> 11:02.209
[SPEAKER_03]: And then he would, because he's not aware of his need to confess, would begin to dispense advice around how to raise children or how to be a husband or how to run a business or how to do this in that as like, man, this is where that's shameless.
11:02.269 --> 11:08.835
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you're the last guy, not to shame you, but you're the last guy that needs to be giving any kind of feedback around that.
11:09.356 --> 11:13.600
[SPEAKER_03]: But shamelessness, a person can become, and I've done it.
11:13.580 --> 11:29.125
[SPEAKER_03]: often can become so insulated by their lack of confession, which is the key to paying attention to guilt, that I will start saying things just for my need to say it, to remain in my insulation, it's as shameless.
11:29.273 --> 11:31.757
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's some denial in self-registerness and all of that.
11:31.777 --> 11:33.280
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not really seeing myself clearly.
11:33.300 --> 11:34.562
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, I don't know.
11:34.582 --> 11:35.985
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a story of Luke.
11:37.427 --> 11:41.314
[SPEAKER_01]: There in Luke 18, where it's the Pharisee and the Tax collector and the Pharisee.
11:41.354 --> 11:42.516
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just glad I'm like him.
11:42.717 --> 11:44.279
[SPEAKER_01]: No, you just like that, man.
11:44.720 --> 11:45.882
[SPEAKER_01]: That was...
11:45.862 --> 12:00.883
[SPEAKER_01]: the Pharisees were so shameless and they live shameless lives now they live shamelessly through performance I got to perform I got to make sure everyone else around me performs but there is no relationship in the performance and that's what we've been talking about.
12:00.863 --> 12:06.008
[SPEAKER_01]: The guilt, when we've done something wrong, it's the thing that breaks relationship.
12:06.109 --> 12:26.230
[SPEAKER_01]: We need forgiveness to restore the relationship, but the Pharisee lived in that place of, I got to keep performing it to belong a matter, and that's what he then looks at the tax collector and he's like, oh, I've just, thank God, that person, so that's what we get to that place of shamelessness of judging other people I remember being in treatment.
12:26.581 --> 12:28.966
[SPEAKER_01]: I said it so I can speak to me.
12:29.026 --> 12:43.257
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember watching the news and this lady had, I had to really grow to a story but she had killed her baby for drugs and I remember coming in and processing that being angry with the lady and you know I was judging the lady and
12:43.237 --> 12:54.640
[SPEAKER_01]: Bill said, just like her, I was like, what, and he said, you know, you're one decision away from making that same choice in your sin, in your addiction, and I was like, man, that is so true.
12:54.660 --> 13:00.351
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm one decision away from being shameless that leads me to the very thing I was judging that lady for.
13:00.331 --> 13:11.019
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, Shane was this is it close to a seared conscience when we see the scriptures idea of a seared conscience somebody who's just gotten to the place where they're no longer sensitive to spirit.
13:11.060 --> 13:12.945
[SPEAKER_02]: They're no longer sensitive to that feeling of you.
13:13.887 --> 13:16.855
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, and there is a
13:16.835 --> 13:20.139
[SPEAKER_03]: story that covers the gamut of what we're talking about.
13:20.179 --> 13:40.163
[SPEAKER_03]: David, King David, the Psalmist, most of the Psalms and the King, and the slayer of Goliath, he, Nathan came to him to confront him about this story, this allegory, this fable, about this guy who was just shameless and came in and was just killing this precious lamb that belonged to someone else.
13:40.223 --> 13:45.930
[SPEAKER_03]: David is like, man, that guy, that guy ought to be in
13:45.910 --> 13:51.200
[SPEAKER_03]: As a David was in his shamelessness, he had committed adultery and had impregnated batchy about it.
13:51.220 --> 14:08.813
[SPEAKER_03]: But wedlock and had her husband killed, and yet when he heard a story that he believed to be hypothetical, or he believed to be happening somewhere else, in his shamelessness, he said, man, that pointing, you know, the old AA adages, I'm pointing this way, I got three back at me.
14:08.793 --> 14:18.603
[SPEAKER_03]: He didn't catch the three back at me part because of shamelessness and so he's railing on this person The story and then Nathan brings him will David that to you.
14:18.643 --> 14:34.378
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's where we see David Asking for the forgiveness in Psalm 32 is a it's a brutal Psalm about the human condition When we're not confessing our guilt before the Lord David said when I kept silent over that
14:34.527 --> 14:41.717
[SPEAKER_03]: When I didn't say a word about when I did not make confession, my Davidness, my essence was oozing out of me.
14:41.757 --> 14:44.121
[SPEAKER_03]: I was wasting away at my bones.
14:44.241 --> 14:47.586
[SPEAKER_03]: My very essence was leaving completely the lost myself.
14:48.387 --> 14:53.835
[SPEAKER_03]: In my silence, in this shamelessness and toxic shame of what I had done, it becomes so seared.
14:53.815 --> 15:03.531
[SPEAKER_03]: That I could hear a story about someone doing way this side of what I did as an action and immediately jumping into what that God deserves.
15:04.252 --> 15:10.221
[SPEAKER_03]: But when I make confession God began the I could see the beginning of God's restoration process to me.
15:10.502 --> 15:15.650
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a great segue to the need that we have when we feel guilt and the gift of it.
15:16.011 --> 15:17.814
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm moving in the right direction with my guilt.
15:17.834 --> 15:18.675
[SPEAKER_02]: What does that look like?
15:18.908 --> 15:27.720
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's, well, is confession, agreeing with God as to the profound offense and no R.C.
15:27.760 --> 15:29.382
[SPEAKER_03]: Sprouls has cosmic treason.
15:29.442 --> 15:30.463
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what sin is.
15:30.543 --> 15:38.094
[SPEAKER_03]: And David is like, man, I'm aware that I have committed treason against the Lord and creator of the universe.
15:38.154 --> 15:42.199
[SPEAKER_03]: And the first step is that agreement with God.
15:42.179 --> 15:53.312
[SPEAKER_03]: to be able to say, this is not just what I have done, but I'm recognizing an emotional and breach of relational level of just how it's treating this is.
15:55.053 --> 16:02.822
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it goes what, you know, the difference between what assert conscience and confession is what Paul says and second Corinthians, right?
16:02.842 --> 16:06.646
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, worldly sorrow doesn't really do anything for you.
16:06.707 --> 16:09.790
[SPEAKER_01]: It's godly guilt that leads to repentance.
16:09.905 --> 16:32.047
[SPEAKER_01]: It's that godly guilt that leads us to a place of like repentance, and I don't know where I picked this up at, but I won't say it's mine, but I read and it says that repentance will lead us to forgiveness, forgiveness will lead us to reconciliation, reconciliation, religious to restore relationship, which is ultimately forgiveness.
16:32.087 --> 16:35.490
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know where I picked that up from, but
16:35.470 --> 16:37.655
[SPEAKER_01]: that is what we need.
16:37.675 --> 16:38.457
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the gift.
16:38.558 --> 16:40.142
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh man, I can be forgiven.
16:40.222 --> 16:45.455
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, thank God for guilt because the feeling of guilt says there is a God that will forgive me.
16:45.475 --> 16:47.139
[SPEAKER_01]: There's people around me that will forgive me.
16:47.159 --> 16:52.753
[SPEAKER_01]: That forgiveness will ultimately lead to freedom, freedom back in relationship with God and myself and other people.
16:52.733 --> 16:59.864
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's beautiful as you're talking about a serious conscience and we're talking about, you know, Psalm 51, David sang, creating me a clean heart.
17:01.246 --> 17:02.728
[SPEAKER_02]: It's almost like my heart was hardened.
17:02.768 --> 17:03.850
[SPEAKER_02]: My heart was seared.
17:03.890 --> 17:07.215
[SPEAKER_02]: My heart was just in the wrong place as it relates to my son.
17:07.235 --> 17:12.463
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, give me a new soft heart, give me a different disposition in relationship.
17:12.443 --> 17:13.884
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be reconciled in a relationship.
17:13.924 --> 17:16.126
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to do life shameless apart from people.
17:16.627 --> 17:19.990
[SPEAKER_02]: Not really looking at the impact of what that is.
17:20.510 --> 17:21.391
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about freedom.
17:21.771 --> 17:24.154
[SPEAKER_02]: You talked about Psalm 32, talked about wasting away.
17:24.194 --> 17:29.538
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of language around captivity, being enslaved to sin and the scriptures.
17:29.578 --> 17:33.502
[SPEAKER_02]: We know, I think even experientially, we've all lived someone enslaved to sin.
17:33.602 --> 17:35.183
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a helpful metaphor.
17:36.004 --> 17:38.066
[SPEAKER_02]: What is freedom like?
17:38.567 --> 17:42.450
[SPEAKER_02]: How do we understand freedom around confession?
17:42.430 --> 17:54.625
[SPEAKER_03]: If you, just for an example, if I have sin against you, Duke, and I've done something, and even if you don't know I've done it, I've gone out here and just said terrible things about you.
17:55.006 --> 17:56.087
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a sin against you.
17:56.127 --> 17:59.271
[SPEAKER_03]: Even if you don't know it, I know it.
17:59.812 --> 18:07.982
[SPEAKER_03]: And as long as I'm not confessing that sin, I'm in bondage to that secret, because
18:07.962 --> 18:34.678
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I'll walk around and if I know you and Todd are going to have coffee and Todd may have called wind at this I'm going to have to work really hard to make sure you to either don't ever have that coffee or I'm going to be at that coffee too making sure I steer that conversation in certain ways and so it becomes this draining experience I've got to be hyper vigilant with get just back to anxiety and if we could kind of sew two feelings
18:34.658 --> 18:40.508
[SPEAKER_03]: If Todd's not cooperating, because he doesn't know I'm in a conspiracy in my own, if he's not cooperating, I could rage at Todd.
18:40.528 --> 18:42.251
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, man, you don't have to talk to Duke about that.
18:42.692 --> 18:48.422
[SPEAKER_03]: Or hey, he, you know, I start living this false role this false self out here, because I've got no freedom.
18:49.083 --> 18:54.693
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't even have the freedom for two guys I care about to have coffee together, because I've got a secret, because I've harm one of them.
18:54.713 --> 18:55.695
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, I can't let that out.
18:56.276 --> 18:57.458
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but it's so helpful, bondage.
18:58.119 --> 18:58.219
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
18:58.418 --> 18:58.959
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
18:58.979 --> 19:00.423
[SPEAKER_02]: What does it look like in a community?
19:00.483 --> 19:03.370
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a community that knows how to process guilt well.
19:04.533 --> 19:11.972
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, first off, what is the, what are some of the preconditions that have to be there for a community to even be a safe place to show up with guilt?
19:12.965 --> 19:25.729
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the first is, you have to have a place of confession, but in the confession, you have to, I mean, you just have to know your own story, your own self of where, you know, at the foot of the cross, they say is all level.
19:26.410 --> 19:31.941
[SPEAKER_01]: I think so often, we can hear one person's sin versus another person's sin and we go ahead and rank sin.
19:31.981 --> 19:33.724
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, sin is sin and sin.
19:34.042 --> 19:47.608
[SPEAKER_01]: I think so often we don't allow for that in the church for sure, and so I can come and confess about line, but I can't confess about, there's just big three, you can't confess about it.
19:47.628 --> 19:52.017
[SPEAKER_01]: So without confession, he said you'll never have freedom without
19:51.997 --> 19:58.665
[SPEAKER_01]: That place of confession in the rooms of SAAA, they say, you know, you're sick as your secrets.
19:59.486 --> 20:01.949
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you have a secret, you're going to manage the secret.
20:01.969 --> 20:07.676
[SPEAKER_01]: And so as long as you're managing without confession, you will even live in bondage.
20:08.037 --> 20:12.362
[SPEAKER_01]: But it is, can we create safe places that we can bring our hearts to?
20:12.382 --> 20:14.905
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that we can have correction around.
20:15.266 --> 20:16.387
[SPEAKER_01]: We need correction and so.
20:16.407 --> 20:17.869
[SPEAKER_01]: And like my kids do.
20:17.849 --> 20:30.964
[SPEAKER_01]: Sin, I need to correct their behavior, but I got to get to like they've got to be in a safe place that they can fail they can sin and there's correction and there's love and there's kindness around those those spaces.
20:31.285 --> 20:44.160
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's helpful Phil, we talk about relational habitats and the Eden was a relational habitat What do you see as the factors that contribute to a community becoming the kind of environment that is safe to come and confess guilt
20:44.140 --> 20:51.240
[SPEAKER_02]: Even the really ugly stuff that you say is maybe off the chart in some places, how do we create those kind of communities of safe spaces?
20:52.122 --> 20:59.162
[SPEAKER_03]: If you would imagine if there's a community of people would just say 20 in a room for an even number.
20:59.142 --> 21:04.567
[SPEAKER_03]: Imagine those people with each person has a partition between them and everyone else in the room.
21:05.087 --> 21:19.500
[SPEAKER_03]: It's 20 entities in one room and what creates those walls to come down is confession, combined with confidentiality, which links to intimacy into me see.
21:19.580 --> 21:20.942
[SPEAKER_03]: I take you into my confidence.
21:20.962 --> 21:22.203
[SPEAKER_03]: You take me into yours.
21:22.843 --> 21:29.149
[SPEAKER_03]: And so as the walls lower and I make confession, if you hold
21:29.129 --> 21:39.348
[SPEAKER_03]: like Todd said, including with correction, but if you hold that with me in confidence, and I take in my confidence, you take me into yours, the word confidence means with fidelity.
21:39.849 --> 21:41.933
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, confidence, it means with fidelity.
21:41.993 --> 21:52.673
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, if I, if you can keep this, if you can be loyal to me, not in terms of keeping my sin a secret, but if you can be loyal to me, so I will hold that under that with you,
21:52.653 --> 21:54.116
[SPEAKER_03]: Duke, I'll hold on that with you, Todd.
21:54.136 --> 21:56.060
[SPEAKER_03]: Would you feel I'll hold on to it with you?
21:56.100 --> 22:03.775
[SPEAKER_03]: And those walls lower, and that becomes a reinforcing agent in any given room in the body of Christ.
22:03.795 --> 22:08.304
[SPEAKER_03]: As those walls go down, and you'll have people that are locking arms.
22:08.324 --> 22:13.033
[SPEAKER_03]: If you look at rope, the walls go down, and the rope shows up.
22:13.073 --> 22:15.117
[SPEAKER_03]: Everybody holding on the rope with one another.
22:15.097 --> 22:21.023
[SPEAKER_03]: saying this is where I am and I know where you are because we're holding the same rope together together in this.
22:21.063 --> 22:22.585
[SPEAKER_03]: That's how those communities out of love.
22:23.406 --> 22:28.311
[SPEAKER_03]: Kurt Thompson's wording and the groups they do at his practice, they're called confessional communities.
22:28.991 --> 22:40.463
[SPEAKER_03]: So these communities gather and they get in that room and they lower those walls and they look at one another stories and they process the story and they confront one another yet they end up holding the same rope together.
22:40.443 --> 22:44.311
[SPEAKER_03]: And one falls, the others can pull and voice versa.
22:44.331 --> 22:50.304
[SPEAKER_02]: I love even the language of first John one, this idea that if we'll confess our sense to one another, we'll have fellowship.
22:50.705 --> 22:52.108
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a kind of fellowship.
22:52.128 --> 23:00.426
[SPEAKER_02]: But you sometimes see it, well, you see it a lot in the recovery communities because everybody is practicing confession in that kind of an environment that they have a lot of
23:00.406 --> 23:04.933
[SPEAKER_02]: friendship, a lot of depth of relationship, a lot of a two-minute attachment happens in those communities.
23:05.414 --> 23:27.527
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe the flip side is what you were talking about with the Pharisees, would imagine the performance and the pretending of the Pharisees, probably a pretty lonely community, not a lot of trust, not a lot of depth of friendship and fellowship, because they're going against the grain of what even First John 1 says has to happen to have real fellowship as sinners who absolutely need a Savior who are just like one
23:27.507 --> 23:31.532
[SPEAKER_02]: They're really honestly pretty level at the cross in terms of their need for Jesus.
23:32.413 --> 23:34.655
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, those communities over time just feel really different.
23:35.436 --> 23:41.523
[SPEAKER_02]: What can be a little bit tricky is in a church, maybe even a family, when we're saying the right words.
23:42.024 --> 23:43.225
[SPEAKER_02]: We're saying gospel words.
23:44.086 --> 23:49.853
[SPEAKER_02]: We're talking about the gospel, but it still doesn't feel like a conventional community where you can really show up.
23:49.833 --> 24:08.668
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, and there's the cognitive dissonance of like, hey, we're saying all the right stuff, but I'm not going to be the first one to go because this is still a performing community that feels like you kind of have to be religious, you kind of have to have all your stuff in a pile, and if you don't, you're going to get put out somehow, or you won't be on a leadership track, or you'll,
24:08.648 --> 24:14.719
[SPEAKER_02]: you'll be at sideline or some, there'll be some kind of real cost that will be associated with that.
24:14.759 --> 24:20.609
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, when I think about churches, I'm like, hey, there's what you're preaching, but like, what does it feel like to be a part of it?
24:20.910 --> 24:23.314
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's what Paul says in Galatians, right?
24:23.334 --> 24:28.463
[SPEAKER_01]: He says, if anyone's caught in sin, let the body, let you who are spiritual.
24:28.443 --> 24:31.193
[SPEAKER_01]: Restore them with a spirit of gentleness.
24:31.715 --> 24:32.498
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have to have both.
24:32.518 --> 24:39.685
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to have a spirit like my desire in confession and repentance with another human is I need to restore them
24:40.424 --> 24:42.508
[SPEAKER_01]: but I have to do it in the lens of being gentle.
24:42.909 --> 25:01.268
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think those two things, I don't think there really is, and that's the grace of my story, I had a church that I fell victim and sin, but they did it with a lot of grace, did a lot of patience, but they did it with gentleness, but their long-term goal was true restoration.
25:01.248 --> 25:22.727
[SPEAKER_01]: And they did, they took two and a half years, but they restored me, I lost my job, but they were committed to the restoration process because they knew God would had called me and gifted me somewhere, but when I've repented and walked that journey, they did they restored me back into full-time ministry, brought me back and blessed me as a pastor again, reordained me.
25:23.407 --> 25:30.073
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's the, I don't think you don't hear that often, that story in the church is slim to none.
25:30.053 --> 25:33.218
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like a real story of gentleness and restoration.
25:33.519 --> 25:42.214
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a lot of fear and triumphalism in that idea that our church has to be exceptional and our church has to have really have it together, our leaders have it together.
25:42.234 --> 25:48.104
[SPEAKER_02]: Anytime we see evidence of the contrary, we've got to sweep down the rug and get rid of that person quickly and pretend that didn't happen.
25:48.785 --> 25:55.977
[SPEAKER_02]: As opposed to, you know, this confessional community works, I don't know, like we all absolutely need the gospel, need Christ.
25:55.957 --> 26:13.797
[SPEAKER_02]: And at times, some of them are going to go deeper into Rebelluter Center, have broken us, but it just means there might require a longer time horizon for us to heal or for us to repent, but we're committed to the short-term long-term health of everybody involved and I think it's a beautiful picture of a healthy community.
26:13.977 --> 26:17.941
[SPEAKER_02]: Really, I hear a lot of gospel foundations in that kind of picture.
26:17.961 --> 26:21.405
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you know, you don't get there without a lot of gospel clarity.
26:21.605 --> 26:23.007
[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you for this.
26:23.087 --> 26:25.069
[SPEAKER_02]: This has been super helpful for us.
26:25.690 --> 26:28.377
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the Reformed Podcast.
26:28.878 --> 26:38.443
[SPEAKER_00]: If you like what you heard, hit that subscribe button, share it with your friends, leave us our rating, and check out our other resources at theeatenproject.com.
26:39.365 --> 26:39.987
[SPEAKER_00]: Peace!
