WEBVTT
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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Reform and eat in private podcasts.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Embracing the beauty and brokenness in your journey with God.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, it is episode.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And today we're going to talk about fear, which is a really strong emotion.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I grew up in the 90s with no fear t-shirts.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we were not doing fear.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We were an acknowledging fear.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And yet, I've lived a lot of my life with fear.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I've also noticed in the scriptures, well, maybe in the church, there's a lot of bad theology amount of fear, a lot of confusion.
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[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of Hebrew and Greek words that all are around fear that get conflated into a single definition and a lot of weird ideas come out of it and so I'm excited for the audience to get a little more clarity about a theology of fear and about what to do with it when we experience it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So let's start there, Phil.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What is the definition?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What am I experiencing when I experience fear?
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[SPEAKER_04]: Fear at it's core is the recognition internal, emotional recognition that I could be or am in danger.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So you take the widest definition you can think of of danger and the widest definition of recognition and that's what fear truly does.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Fear is what alerts us to the possibility that I could something bad could happen to me and we humans like I would love to eliminate anything dangerous or bad that could be life or identity threatening.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That's what fear is what God has given us this emotion for.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's helpful.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe even the suck a little bit.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We don't always do this, but about the limbic system because isn't there something around even the fast brain?
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[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm walking down a pass and I see a stick that looks like a rattlesnake that my body says, hey, that might be what I think it is and I'm already reacting because
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[SPEAKER_02]: I could be.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And that's, even the way God has created our brains, how the upcipital lobes work to go, scan the horizon rather than just a tunnel vision because we're made to look for things that could harm us.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That's what our brains do in our bodies react and like that's how God fearfully wonderfully made.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I know that's leaned on a ton, so on 139.
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[SPEAKER_04]: As leaned on because it's really true that we're fearfully wonderfully made in one of the ways that God has created us is this recognition of, it could be a stick, it could be a snake, but I'm going to I'm going to wage a snake until I see it to stick.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That's what keeps us literally keeps us alive.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Now it's so good.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Todd, when you think about what we're experiencing when you experience fear, what would you add to that?
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's really helpful.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What else is going to help us understand?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What's going on when we're afraid?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the danger piece is, it is the lynch pen to this feeling, and I love what Dr. Chip Dodd says about fear, and we live in a culture that says, be fearless, be fearless, you know, and we live in a church culture that says the same thing, and so Chip said, said, oftentimes, like, fearless people become careless people, because they don't care about themselves, they don't care about themselves, they're definitely not going to care about you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think fear is a great gift from God that allows the pay attention to what's going on in us and what's going on around us.
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[SPEAKER_01]: One of the questions, you know, especially at 10 May and we get off, then is what the Bible says.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, the Bible says, well, I always put it back to Ephesians 6.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's talk about what Paul says about
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[SPEAKER_01]: putting on the full armor of God and you don't put on armor if you're not have some level of healthy fear you're like fear prepares us for something and so you know Paul says it you know we're in a battle or any war and so we have to be aware of what's going on and who it is that's fighting us and then that that fear will allow us to prepare for something that's coming against us and after us yeah
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[SPEAKER_02]: No, as you said that the Dodd-Quote, before Feralists were careless, there's almost a motif in literature or movies where you see the country bumpkin, maybe even the girl, right, that moves to the big city that's naive.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That really has no idea the underbelly of a city and how morally it is and all that all the manipulation sophistication of evil that is happening there and they wander in,
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[SPEAKER_02]: Kind of fearless careless just kind of like oh, it's fine people were well-meaning people like like the people in my little small town that are all for me and love me And I'm just gonna walk walking to Chicago and like it started life here and and you're like, oh gosh like that could end really really poorly because you don't yet know
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[SPEAKER_02]: what to fear.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You don't yet know your environment well enough to understand what you're up against.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, there's some there's some wisdom there.
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[SPEAKER_04]: There is another aspect of fear.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I'm talking about the danger.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I talked about danger, the snake and the stick.
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[SPEAKER_04]: There's also a fear of being aware.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Fear raises awareness is hilarious.
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[SPEAKER_04]: name James Quittillus he was a kind of a flash in the pan kind of guy, but he tells a story that he Two was gonna go capture Chicago.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I'm just you know, I'm just gonna kind of come conquer this and he I think he was on a bus He said he stepped off the bus.
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[SPEAKER_04]: He set down his luggage like all right.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I'm here.
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[SPEAKER_04]: He's he looked down his luggage was gone
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[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, okay.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Well, maybe I'll conquer later, but I really story about him, but you know, in fear what we've been talking about like Todd said, like prepares us for battle and fear also helps us be alert to danger has this very wide definition.
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[SPEAKER_04]: It could also say, hey, if I'm not paying attention things happen that are detrimental to me continuing in life, like James Quick Tillers, all of a sudden had no clothing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, he looked around like that's all gone.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's great.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So let's talk about the impairment.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So there is a lot of the allergy around don't fear, and maybe if you had faith, you wouldn't fear.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a bunch of people that are saying, okay, I'm not going to fear.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What happens when I want, though?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Where am I headed in the impairments if I won't honestly deal with my fear?
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[SPEAKER_04]: a really common, if there's any word that's bandied about in almost every circle these days, neuroscience, psychology, theology, philosophy, you name it.
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[SPEAKER_04]: It's the word anxiety.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Anxiety is simply where the body takes over to handle the fear my heart is made to respond to.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So the body reacts rather than the heart responding.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So that's where, you know, it's very
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[SPEAKER_04]: You know, we can set our jaws, tension, headaches, you name it, and that's the two-minute list.
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[SPEAKER_04]: But anxiety is simply, I'm going to be really hyper-vigilant.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to make sure I'm at a heightened, not just a heightened awareness, but a heightened almost paranoia.
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[SPEAKER_04]: It says, I'm going to make sure, because here's the promise that anxiety holds out that isn't true, anxiety says,
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[SPEAKER_04]: I may not can prevent bad things from happening, but hey, I can prevent most bad things from happening.
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[SPEAKER_04]: If something bad does happen, I will see it coming and therefore I can have control over it.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I can respond quickly because I'm watching it constantly because you know, if it ain't going to sneak up on me.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So if something bad happens, I've seen it coming and ultimately that creates the promise that I can overcome it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's so helpful.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I've struggled a lot with anxiety.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's probably one of the chiefs struggles.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So it tells me I have a lot of fear that I'm not always processing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I've almost thought of it like a pit bull like I'm walking through a bad neighborhood and there's a pit bull about a block away and I'm looking over my shoulder.
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[SPEAKER_02]: kind of often, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Just keep my on it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Keep my, it hasn't become active threat yet, but I'm just super aware that it could.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so I just live with that preoccupation with what could happen.
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[SPEAKER_02]: When I call that worry, but you know Jeff Schulte, it did man.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He had this moment with me at one point where he's like, what if you just went,
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[SPEAKER_02]: turned around and grabbed the pit will buy the ears and got good in a freight of what you're afraid of instead of managing to anxiety and that would actually be the path forward as opposed to just chronic anxiety.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm never really totally afraid.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just monitoring the thing that could happen constantly like an open app.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think that intervention would work for you.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Not even close.
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[SPEAKER_04]: You said pit bull and a actually a body temperature went up.
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[SPEAKER_04]: My jaws got tight a little bit of a little bit afraid of dogs.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You probably had an experience with probably a story in the real world that was danger.
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[SPEAKER_04]: There is and it's embedded deeply and I don't even know the origin of it, but here how I know that is I have such a reaction to them to this day.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yep, and uh, yes, and it's instant.
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[SPEAKER_04]: This could raise you, you know, Todd knows that about me.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And when you were describing, when you described grabbing that dog, I felt my body do something.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't mean to trigger it, but yeah, the body keeps the score.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So he's getting anxious over there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I wasn't trying to assimilate in real time, but hey, there we go.
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[SPEAKER_02]: How does control play into that as well?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because you see people who say, how am I control freak?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What are they saying when they say that?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what does it, what does control do with, have to do with fear?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think you're trying to control the anxiety, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So the control is, I've got to make sure everything around me is safe so that I'm safe.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to control people, places, things, out of my anxiety that I'm in danger.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I may or may not be in danger, but the anxiety just said it, like I'm constantly looking around.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to now control my environment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't have to keep looking around.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But in doing the control of the environment is I'm really not paying attention to what's going on in me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm paying attention to what's going outside of me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and that that will lead into the impairment, the impairment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm going to rage to gain control over the things I cannot control.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Again, you think about a cat in a pitball.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You put a cat in the corner over there and you bring a pitball.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That cat is going to do whatever it has to do in order to say safe.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to, any will rage.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It will go ballistic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But it's that place of I'm going to control this dog more than this dog is going to control me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to punch first.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to do damage so I'm not damaged.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We talked about rage.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We mentioned in the anger episode that anger's different than rage.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What is your operating definition of rage?
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[SPEAKER_02]: How else do I know when they're seeing that play out?
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[SPEAKER_04]: Rage is where I'm lashing out in terror.
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[SPEAKER_04]: There's a couple of adages that really do make sense.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Two scenarios often you'll have a bigger person beating up on a smaller person, like a school yard bully
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[SPEAKER_04]: You know, this big old guy, these younger people, and some of the convention of wisdom says, well, they're just insecure.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Well, that happens to be true.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That old tale is really true, and that when people, the classic pictures and people of them are right or turning over tables and screaming and, you know, and beating people up in that kind of thing,
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[SPEAKER_04]: but rage runs on a continuum, silent rage, freezing people out, biting, starting not good nature, we're friends, bantering, but sarcastic intended to punch and cut those examples of rage.
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[SPEAKER_04]: anxiety has run its course and I'm over here by myself and isolation I'm going to do something to push you away to disintegrate you so I can be safe.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So the the outruth of the disintegrate you can destroy a room at the classic picture.
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[SPEAKER_04]: It's I think one of the best films in history is it's a wonderful life and you see the scene, if you've seen the movie, if you see the scene where George Bailey comes into his house on Christmas Eve, it's a festive occasion, they're trimming the tree, they're going to all stuff.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Kids are doing decorations.
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[SPEAKER_04]: They have a lot of things.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And so and he has lost his company and he comes in in his wife asking a question, she says, what's the matter?
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[SPEAKER_04]: and rather than saying we'll come in here so the kids don't hear come in here here's what's happened.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Uncle Bill little strong money in this saying and I'm really really afraid he lashes out he's sarcastic he's he's irritated that one of his oldest son hero child says dad the brown's got a new car and he's like what's wrong with our car and all these little things are happening and then he finally
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[SPEAKER_04]: the phone call and zoos who sick he's just had it and he destroys his living room yeah he's he may be angry but that is fueled by how terrified he has he's lost his company it's Christmas Eve he doesn't know what to do and he destroys his dreams he scale models of bridges and buildings that he's put he has he has a dream is a child and so that's a that is a an amazing picture of how a really good man is raging he didn't come in the door
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[SPEAKER_04]: sarcasm irritability lashing out and finally ended up with this fit that he threw because he was terrified he lost his business.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but so insightful when you see somebody raging to to back in Reversions in here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What are they afraid of?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm
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[SPEAKER_02]: In his case, financial ruin.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe he couldn't provide for his family.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And those are very real fears, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: He's processing them in a really broken way.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes we see rage at a collective level.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like some of what we watched happen in 2020 with the pandemic, which was a very scary and disarranging thing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It was really the first pandemic that was truly global that the US certainly encountered at a widespread level.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You had probably economic fears of stuff being shut down.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's my restaurant going to make it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's my company going to make it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You had, you also had a lot around Vax or no Vax, Massacre, no Mass, they didn't have the George Floyd conflict and all that, but what it seemed like was happening in our country at least was a collective, impaired fear where people were not in control and realized they were not in control.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then when all the way to rage and you started having collective rage,
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[SPEAKER_02]: You start seeing it play out on social media, you start seeing it play out in local churches where they're starting to fight against one another and all that unadressed fear is showing up in that attacking, verbal attack, you know, and all kinds of strange brokenness and relationships.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There was really, it seemed like a collective rage and I mean, I just agreed, it was like, okay, that's a litmus test, even in the church that we don't know how to deal with fear.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We don't yet know how to process it and so we're raging.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And what's so sad to me, Duke, is perhaps well-meaning pastors and other leaders and church will say, do not be afraid, and yet these same people will spend hours preparing a message.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And if you ask them, well, what do you know, it's preparation for, and the well I want to make sure the the languages are accurate.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, so you are afraid the language won't be accurate.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I wanted to be engaging for people to pay attention because it's important.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, you're afraid it won't be entering it won't pay attention.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So every, if the word, when we say the word preparation, we're talking about healthy fear.
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[SPEAKER_04]: We'll say that pastor will either stop studying,
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[SPEAKER_04]: or stop saying that because if you prepare your message, you're listening to healthy fear like, yeah, I want this to be, this has got to work, I want to communicate it in a way that people can understand it, engage with it, like, what, yes, and you know, you're, you're
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[SPEAKER_04]: I'll put all player Duke in a young kind of way, but you're an old football player, and you know, in every single practice that a football team goes through is healthy fear to prepare for these other 11 guys over there that want to stop you from doing what you're there to do.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So in all kind of when a pilot does a pre-flight inspection of the aircraft, it's healthy fear.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So when we prepared Todd mentioned preparing for battle, if you take that wide definition of battle, meaning living,
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[SPEAKER_04]: As we prepare to do things, we're listening to healthy fear so we can do it wisely with the certainty.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's a great transition into the gift and the need, how do we move healthy through fear?
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[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm going to deal honestly with it, let's say I'm becoming convinced, wait a minute, I have a lot more fear than I realized and I don't want to rage and I don't want to be a control freak, I want to move into the direction that actually is relational and it's healthy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: How do I process it?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What do I do with it?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's paying attention what's going on in me and what's going on around me and taking what's going on in me and around me to other people right to ask them for help being needy of Processing my fears and I think what Phil said just a moment ago of his or mind I think oftentimes we
16:22.257 --> 16:23.820
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a little bit of fear.
16:23.900 --> 16:24.641
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a lot of fear.
16:24.661 --> 16:26.424
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, you either do or you don't.
16:26.505 --> 16:28.628
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, so often we want to rate fear.
16:28.889 --> 16:32.155
[SPEAKER_01]: What's most scary, what's least scary, it's like no fear is fear.
16:32.235 --> 16:35.260
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just pay attention to it because you can pay attention to it.
16:35.320 --> 16:42.874
[SPEAKER_01]: Then you won't try to control it and you'll just become very needy with God and other people to walk out of that.
16:42.914 --> 16:44.637
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's where you
16:44.617 --> 16:49.924
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think of a proper 17, the fear of the Lord leads us to wisdom.
16:50.645 --> 16:54.089
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, okay, like, I have to have healthy fear in order to have wisdom.
16:54.289 --> 16:57.633
[SPEAKER_01]: But I have to be honest with what I'm afraid about.
16:58.054 --> 17:01.358
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's a lot of, and we'll talk about this in another podcast.
17:01.378 --> 17:04.822
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think healthy shame will lead us to a healthy fear.
17:05.263 --> 17:06.585
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm very, very limited.
17:06.605 --> 17:07.946
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't see everything.
17:07.966 --> 17:09.308
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know everything.
17:09.288 --> 17:11.933
[SPEAKER_01]: got to give me the fear to see what I don't see.
17:12.494 --> 17:16.982
[SPEAKER_01]: So I can navigate through life with that level of healthy fear.
17:17.362 --> 17:27.280
[SPEAKER_01]: And that will then translate as I walk with other people, so there's the process of really paying attention to me and what's going on in me, and what's going on around me.
17:27.260 --> 17:28.342
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I love that.
17:28.362 --> 17:52.660
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a there's a cop-less business man in that honest if you get his name but wrote a book said you know essentially said only the paranoid survive and it was basically saying in business If you're not paying attention to cash flow if you're not paying attention to your competitors You're not paying attention to the market area other thing and paying attention to all that you're not going to make it You're not going to be able to you're not going to be able to have wisdom skill in business if you're not paying attention all the threats and all the things that are coming against you and so
17:52.640 --> 18:01.910
[SPEAKER_02]: Fear is actually a gift that can help us account for reality as it actually is and begin to be more skillful and how we navigate it This is interesting.
18:01.930 --> 18:02.671
[SPEAKER_02]: We talk about David.
18:02.731 --> 18:09.939
[SPEAKER_02]: We talk about someone who was so emotionally present a man after God's own heart And it was and David is not weak He has a mighty men following him.
18:10.479 --> 18:13.542
[SPEAKER_02]: He's doing actual hand-to-hand combat He's a king.
18:13.582 --> 18:16.926
[SPEAKER_02]: He's a competent leader and he had David's afraid a lot
18:16.906 --> 18:30.880
[SPEAKER_02]: We see a lot of songs where he's showing up with fear, and he's showing up terrified, and but he's discovering, like you're saying, there's a neediness about him, that comes into God and he starts to describe God as a refuge or an ever-present hope in need.
18:31.460 --> 18:41.690
[SPEAKER_02]: And so because he's willing to be needy, really feel his fear, he has, I believe, has something more with God than what many of us have, because he's dealing honestly with the threats.
18:41.770 --> 18:42.711
[SPEAKER_02]: And they were real.
18:42.691 --> 18:43.172
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
18:43.252 --> 18:46.118
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Saul's doing spares at him, like he's hiding in caves.
18:46.319 --> 18:48.443
[SPEAKER_02]: He's got military might coming against him.
18:49.365 --> 18:53.534
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, even then the most faint probably in the most famous story about David with Goliath.
18:54.576 --> 19:02.353
[SPEAKER_04]: If you look at the rather undramatic outpouring of fear that he had there, he, he put on Saul's armor.
19:03.464 --> 19:22.013
[SPEAKER_04]: And when this doesn't fit me I'm afraid if I go out there and fight this guy with this armor on I'm not going to make it so healthy fear said I can't do this is not wise for me and I know the old line you know he picked up for some stones because a lot of head three brothers he picked up for some stones in case he missed with the first three
19:22.550 --> 19:35.698
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, because he was listening to healthy fear, you know, I think I can knock this dude out with one, but just in case I'm going to get more rocks and even that store, the new aunt is under that story is a picture of healthy fear.
19:36.218 --> 19:49.550
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I'm going to be wise about this, and yeah, I mentioned it, you know, I ironically earlier in Ephesians six, like, yeah, armor is probably pretty wise, but like you can look at that went, no, I'm afraid this is going to keep impede me from doing what I need to do.
19:50.071 --> 19:52.157
[SPEAKER_04]: And then he got more rocks than just one.
19:52.177 --> 19:53.620
[SPEAKER_04]: And so even those little,
19:53.600 --> 20:02.220
[SPEAKER_04]: kind of hidden details, even in that story, this man who knew was so acquainted with his own fear, had all kinds of reason.
20:02.240 --> 20:03.243
[SPEAKER_04]: He's in the cave of Adele.
20:03.263 --> 20:04.085
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm fearing for his life.
20:04.125 --> 20:08.976
[SPEAKER_04]: These other guys around him, you know, and so he does have so much pathos in his story.
20:08.956 --> 20:21.579
[SPEAKER_04]: And then even before, or as a backdrop to so many of those Psalms, he wrote how afraid he was, he's already practicing what it means to have wisdom and disarmament that comes from healthy fear, just with the fight with Goliath.
20:21.659 --> 20:22.741
[SPEAKER_04]: Yep, that's so good.
20:23.142 --> 20:28.371
[SPEAKER_02]: And for those that maybe are thinking, I still wonder if fear is an evidence of a lack of faith.
20:29.293 --> 20:32.719
[SPEAKER_02]: Where do we see Jesus who was without sin, experiencing fear?
20:32.699 --> 20:56.733
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, and we literally cannot begin to imagine that Jesus, God in human flesh, was about to take on all sin, all sin, that leads us to utter corruption in our humanness, and he's in the Garden of Gessimony, and he tells his friends, I am overwhelmed with sorrow.
20:56.833 --> 20:58.355
[SPEAKER_04]: We just talked about sadness earlier.
20:58.395 --> 20:59.617
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm overwhelmed with sorrow.
21:00.117 --> 21:01.980
[SPEAKER_04]: Please come be with me.
21:01.960 --> 21:09.106
[SPEAKER_04]: And he asked the cup to pass before him because only Jesus would have the eyes to see what what what laid before him.
21:09.687 --> 21:15.252
[SPEAKER_04]: And they brighter Hebrews tells us a little bit, but for the joy set before him he suffered the scorn and shame.
21:15.312 --> 21:22.539
[SPEAKER_04]: And so that to me is such a picture of how Jesus is saying, This is literally eternally huge.
21:23.640 --> 21:31.967
[SPEAKER_02]: I do not want to do this.
21:31.947 --> 21:35.370
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, just anybody going to the death penalty.
21:35.610 --> 21:37.412
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and they're really paying attention, right?
21:37.592 --> 21:39.554
[SPEAKER_02]: Fear is an appropriate response to danger.
21:40.415 --> 21:46.761
[SPEAKER_02]: But also knows that he's had unbroken fellowship with the Father in the Spirit since eternity passed and knows what that sever's gonna be like.
21:46.781 --> 21:49.143
[SPEAKER_02]: That my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
21:49.784 --> 21:53.267
[SPEAKER_02]: He's dealing with that at a psychic level going, this is terrifying.
21:53.788 --> 21:55.649
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, and he's fully human, right?
21:55.689 --> 21:57.231
[SPEAKER_02]: He's just going, I am terrified.
21:57.251 --> 22:01.515
[SPEAKER_02]: Who wants to die by crucifixion?
22:01.495 --> 22:03.919
[SPEAKER_02]: What would it say about Jesus if he wasn't afraid?
22:03.939 --> 22:04.179
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
22:04.479 --> 22:07.284
[SPEAKER_02]: In some ways it would maybe make a case against this humanity.
22:07.684 --> 22:11.029
[SPEAKER_02]: That he wasn't really fully human because he was a superhero.
22:11.049 --> 22:16.157
[SPEAKER_02]: He was a stoic above the fray guy who didn't really worry about crucifixion.
22:16.177 --> 22:17.158
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not a big thing to me.
22:17.378 --> 22:19.321
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like no, in full humanity.
22:19.702 --> 22:23.267
[SPEAKER_02]: Like any sane human paying attention is a terrified at that moment.
22:23.247 --> 22:25.932
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like one writer said, I think it was C.S.
22:25.992 --> 22:29.017
[SPEAKER_04]: Lewis, but I kind of have a habit of staying, think it C.S.
22:29.058 --> 22:30.420
[SPEAKER_04]: Lewis wrote literally everything.
22:30.460 --> 22:44.766
[SPEAKER_04]: So I don't feel it was him or not, but I believe it was him that said that the crucifixion or the cross in art and jewelry only became popular after the last person who had seen a crucifixion died.
22:44.746 --> 22:47.050
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it would not want any reminder that whatsoever.
22:47.471 --> 22:51.940
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that puts electric chairs on our necklaces and wearing those around as a symbol.
22:52.160 --> 22:54.124
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, that's so, that's so helpful.
22:55.026 --> 22:59.755
[SPEAKER_02]: And what happens when we start to have a community that knows how to deal well with fear?
22:59.956 --> 23:06.889
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it feel like to be in a family or a church that just is able to process it well and kind of step into it?
23:06.869 --> 23:12.521
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think, you know, we begin to see things and say in the things and speak in the things.
23:12.582 --> 23:20.078
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the wisest man, you know, that's Solomon, had so much fear, but here's what's going to do.
23:20.118 --> 23:25.570
[SPEAKER_01]: The whiz, if we pay attention our fear, it's going to move us back into our sadness.
23:25.887 --> 23:31.844
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I think we, because we don't want to do sadness, we're also not willing to be fearful of it.
23:31.944 --> 23:34.130
[SPEAKER_01]: So we live without fear and sadness.
23:34.431 --> 23:40.909
[SPEAKER_01]: Salam said at the best, he said, with much knowledge or much wisdom, it's going to come much sorrow.
23:40.889 --> 23:58.848
[SPEAKER_01]: Those two things are going to be coupled together and so I don't think we want to do the fear because we're not allowed to We also don't want to do sadness and those two go hand in hand according to the wisest man to ever live like if you're going to be wise You will have sorrow He's like and we're like that.
23:58.908 --> 24:10.120
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to do those two So I think the more we get into our healthy fear the more the more recognition we have of who who I am and who you are and who God is it like
24:10.100 --> 24:13.444
[SPEAKER_01]: All these and, you know, I think we've been saying it.
24:14.105 --> 24:19.913
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want to be needy people, because we don't want to be needy people, we don't want to actually do the feelings.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so we become a needy community.
24:22.336 --> 24:23.277
[SPEAKER_01]: What we deal with our fear.
24:23.597 --> 24:24.158
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
24:24.178 --> 24:30.786
[SPEAKER_04]: And there's this added kind of coat tail on what Todd just said that just added that faith and fear don't coexist.
24:30.866 --> 24:38.076
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, you know, human experience and life and the body together says that if I don't have any fear, I don't see faith as necessary.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
24:39.918 --> 24:40.479
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
24:40.579 --> 24:55.715
[SPEAKER_04]: And so it's such a ironic added, it's come about, like Todd said, we intuitively, we emotionally, spiritually recognize that I'm making a beeline for that sorrow, like Solomon said.
24:55.755 --> 24:57.878
[SPEAKER_04]: And so what do we need in sorrow?
24:58.058 --> 24:59.840
[SPEAKER_04]: Fortification through presence.
24:59.920 --> 25:03.884
[SPEAKER_04]: And so faith and fear have to coexist.
25:03.904 --> 25:05.606
[SPEAKER_04]: And we go, that's where faith becomes operative.
25:05.646 --> 25:07.528
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just a theory
25:07.508 --> 25:23.250
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say the seasons when I've been most afraid are the seasons that I've been most close to obeying the scripture to pray without season, and to walk or truly abide, but it's been out of the awareness of the need, and so we try to tell people to have all this faith without really being honest about the need.
25:23.431 --> 25:36.469
[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't have need, but have all this faith anyway, and it's like, no, no, the only way you're really going to come to a place of deep about faith is if you're fully aware of how bad the situation actually is, how many bad things can
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[SPEAKER_02]: And now you realize that God isn't ever present home in need.
25:39.293 --> 25:53.133
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you when those things are you're dealing honestly with both those things you're you're you're abiding you're walking by faith in the moment to moment of the tension of a trial or a certain stance that is just way beyond beyond you and now you get intimacy with God.
25:53.314 --> 25:53.614
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
25:53.594 --> 25:56.138
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you're dealing honest with a fear and so not dealing with fear.
25:56.178 --> 26:16.209
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll say that one of the biggest threats is like you're just gonna have a lot less intimacy with God A lot less evidence of his grace and his ever-present help You're just gonna and and you're gonna still deal with the byproducts of the anxiety and control in the rage It's it's really not wisdom to not deal honestly with fear And so I hope that's one thing that happens over the coming years.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we normalize we clarify what fear is we teach people how to pray like David with their fear
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[SPEAKER_02]: So let they can have his just a testimony of, hey, he has been my home, he has been my deliverer, he has been my refuge, all the things that they was able to say with integrity because he was me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's right, because it showed up.
26:36.819 --> 26:39.443
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the reform podcast.
26:39.904 --> 26:51.040
[SPEAKER_00]: If you like what you heard, hit that subscribe button, share it with your friends, leave us
00:10.291 --> 00:14.662
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Reform and eat in private podcasts.
00:14.683 --> 00:18.232
[SPEAKER_00]: Embracing the beauty and brokenness in your journey with God.
00:19.134 --> 00:20.217
[SPEAKER_00]: So, it is episode.
00:21.867 --> 00:26.733
[SPEAKER_02]: And today we're going to talk about fear, which is a really strong emotion.
00:26.753 --> 00:30.097
[SPEAKER_02]: I grew up in the 90s with no fear t-shirts.
00:30.117 --> 00:31.459
[SPEAKER_02]: So we were not doing fear.
00:31.759 --> 00:32.920
[SPEAKER_02]: We were an acknowledging fear.
00:33.641 --> 00:35.864
[SPEAKER_02]: And yet, I've lived a lot of my life with fear.
00:36.565 --> 00:44.314
[SPEAKER_02]: I've also noticed in the scriptures, well, maybe in the church, there's a lot of bad theology amount of fear, a lot of confusion.
00:44.294 --> 00:58.230
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of Hebrew and Greek words that all are around fear that get conflated into a single definition and a lot of weird ideas come out of it and so I'm excited for the audience to get a little more clarity about a theology of fear and about what to do with it when we experience it.
00:59.151 --> 01:00.532
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's start there, Phil.
01:00.612 --> 01:01.793
[SPEAKER_02]: What is the definition?
01:01.814 --> 01:04.176
[SPEAKER_02]: What am I experiencing when I experience fear?
01:04.997 --> 01:13.947
[SPEAKER_04]: Fear at it's core is the recognition internal, emotional recognition that I could be or am in danger.
01:14.618 --> 01:21.829
[SPEAKER_04]: So you take the widest definition you can think of of danger and the widest definition of recognition and that's what fear truly does.
01:21.970 --> 01:34.890
[SPEAKER_04]: Fear is what alerts us to the possibility that I could something bad could happen to me and we humans like I would love to eliminate anything dangerous or bad that could be life or identity threatening.
01:35.191 --> 01:37.875
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what fear is what God has given us this emotion for.
01:37.855 --> 01:39.379
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's helpful.
01:40.281 --> 01:41.283
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe even the suck a little bit.
01:41.664 --> 01:46.436
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't always do this, but about the limbic system because isn't there something around even the fast brain?
01:46.496 --> 01:55.257
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm walking down a pass and I see a stick that looks like a rattlesnake that my body says, hey, that might be what I think it is and I'm already reacting because
01:55.237 --> 01:55.818
[SPEAKER_02]: I could be.
01:56.680 --> 01:56.920
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
01:57.602 --> 01:57.862
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
01:58.063 --> 02:10.528
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's, even the way God has created our brains, how the upcipital lobes work to go, scan the horizon rather than just a tunnel vision because we're made to look for things that could harm us.
02:10.508 --> 02:15.015
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what our brains do in our bodies react and like that's how God fearfully wonderfully made.
02:15.076 --> 02:17.119
[SPEAKER_04]: I know that's leaned on a ton, so on 139.
02:17.840 --> 02:31.583
[SPEAKER_04]: As leaned on because it's really true that we're fearfully wonderfully made in one of the ways that God has created us is this recognition of, it could be a stick, it could be a snake, but I'm going to I'm going to wage a snake until I see it to stick.
02:32.244 --> 02:34.187
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what keeps us literally keeps us alive.
02:34.538 --> 02:34.779
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
02:35.240 --> 02:35.922
[SPEAKER_02]: Now it's so good.
02:36.443 --> 02:40.353
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Todd, when you think about what we're experiencing when you experience fear, what would you add to that?
02:40.373 --> 02:41.195
[SPEAKER_02]: That's really helpful.
02:42.278 --> 02:43.742
[SPEAKER_02]: What else is going to help us understand?
02:43.802 --> 02:45.105
[SPEAKER_02]: What's going on when we're afraid?
02:45.760 --> 03:11.683
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the danger piece is, it is the lynch pen to this feeling, and I love what Dr. Chip Dodd says about fear, and we live in a culture that says, be fearless, be fearless, you know, and we live in a church culture that says the same thing, and so Chip said, said, oftentimes, like, fearless people become careless people, because they don't care about themselves, they don't care about themselves, they're definitely not going to care about you.
03:11.663 --> 03:18.715
[SPEAKER_01]: I think fear is a great gift from God that allows the pay attention to what's going on in us and what's going on around us.
03:19.536 --> 03:25.306
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the questions, you know, especially at 10 May and we get off, then is what the Bible says.
03:25.406 --> 03:29.512
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, the Bible says, well, I always put it back to Ephesians 6.
03:29.773 --> 03:32.878
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's talk about what Paul says about
03:32.858 --> 03:59.912
[SPEAKER_01]: putting on the full armor of God and you don't put on armor if you're not have some level of healthy fear you're like fear prepares us for something and so you know Paul says it you know we're in a battle or any war and so we have to be aware of what's going on and who it is that's fighting us and then that that fear will allow us to prepare for something that's coming against us and after us yeah
03:59.892 --> 04:12.106
[SPEAKER_02]: No, as you said that the Dodd-Quote, before Feralists were careless, there's almost a motif in literature or movies where you see the country bumpkin, maybe even the girl, right, that moves to the big city that's naive.
04:12.166 --> 04:22.457
[SPEAKER_02]: That really has no idea the underbelly of a city and how morally it is and all that all the manipulation sophistication of evil that is happening there and they wander in,
04:22.437 --> 04:39.265
[SPEAKER_02]: Kind of fearless careless just kind of like oh, it's fine people were well-meaning people like like the people in my little small town that are all for me and love me And I'm just gonna walk walking to Chicago and like it started life here and and you're like, oh gosh like that could end really really poorly because you don't yet know
04:39.548 --> 04:40.169
[SPEAKER_02]: what to fear.
04:40.209 --> 04:43.955
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't yet know your environment well enough to understand what you're up against.
04:44.336 --> 04:46.780
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, there's some there's some wisdom there.
04:46.820 --> 04:48.643
[SPEAKER_04]: There is another aspect of fear.
04:49.124 --> 04:50.266
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm talking about the danger.
04:50.326 --> 04:52.489
[SPEAKER_04]: I talked about danger, the snake and the stick.
04:52.990 --> 04:54.933
[SPEAKER_04]: There's also a fear of being aware.
04:54.974 --> 04:59.481
[SPEAKER_04]: Fear raises awareness is hilarious.
04:59.461 --> 05:07.520
[SPEAKER_04]: name James Quittillus he was a kind of a flash in the pan kind of guy, but he tells a story that he Two was gonna go capture Chicago.
05:07.680 --> 05:12.932
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm just you know, I'm just gonna kind of come conquer this and he I think he was on a bus He said he stepped off the bus.
05:12.952 --> 05:14.476
[SPEAKER_04]: He set down his luggage like all right.
05:14.496 --> 05:14.857
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm here.
05:14.877 --> 05:17.082
[SPEAKER_04]: He's he looked down his luggage was gone
05:18.158 --> 05:19.179
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, okay.
05:19.199 --> 05:32.896
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, maybe I'll conquer later, but I really story about him, but you know, in fear what we've been talking about like Todd said, like prepares us for battle and fear also helps us be alert to danger has this very wide definition.
05:32.996 --> 05:41.847
[SPEAKER_04]: It could also say, hey, if I'm not paying attention things happen that are detrimental to me continuing in life, like James Quick Tillers, all of a sudden had no clothing.
05:42.428 --> 05:44.470
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, he looked around like that's all gone.
05:44.450 --> 05:45.151
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
05:45.331 --> 05:46.233
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's great.
05:46.313 --> 05:48.697
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's talk about the impairment.
05:48.777 --> 05:55.488
[SPEAKER_02]: So there is a lot of the allergy around don't fear, and maybe if you had faith, you wouldn't fear.
05:55.649 --> 05:59.255
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a bunch of people that are saying, okay, I'm not going to fear.
05:59.856 --> 06:01.138
[SPEAKER_02]: What happens when I want, though?
06:01.519 --> 06:04.804
[SPEAKER_02]: Where am I headed in the impairments if I won't honestly deal with my fear?
06:04.784 --> 06:14.532
[SPEAKER_04]: a really common, if there's any word that's bandied about in almost every circle these days, neuroscience, psychology, theology, philosophy, you name it.
06:14.573 --> 06:15.493
[SPEAKER_04]: It's the word anxiety.
06:16.374 --> 06:23.080
[SPEAKER_04]: Anxiety is simply where the body takes over to handle the fear my heart is made to respond to.
06:23.100 --> 06:26.583
[SPEAKER_04]: So the body reacts rather than the heart responding.
06:27.544 --> 06:34.690
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's where, you know, it's very
06:34.670 --> 06:40.439
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, we can set our jaws, tension, headaches, you name it, and that's the two-minute list.
06:40.459 --> 06:44.546
[SPEAKER_04]: But anxiety is simply, I'm going to be really hyper-vigilant.
06:44.746 --> 06:49.934
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to make sure I'm at a heightened, not just a heightened awareness, but a heightened almost paranoia.
06:50.415 --> 06:56.965
[SPEAKER_04]: It says, I'm going to make sure, because here's the promise that anxiety holds out that isn't true, anxiety says,
06:58.160 --> 07:03.369
[SPEAKER_04]: I may not can prevent bad things from happening, but hey, I can prevent most bad things from happening.
07:03.769 --> 07:07.536
[SPEAKER_04]: If something bad does happen, I will see it coming and therefore I can have control over it.
07:08.477 --> 07:13.286
[SPEAKER_04]: I can respond quickly because I'm watching it constantly because you know, if it ain't going to sneak up on me.
07:13.306 --> 07:20.117
[SPEAKER_04]: So if something bad happens, I've seen it coming and ultimately that creates the promise that I can overcome it.
07:20.215 --> 07:21.518
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's so helpful.
07:21.898 --> 07:23.642
[SPEAKER_02]: I've struggled a lot with anxiety.
07:23.802 --> 07:25.365
[SPEAKER_02]: That's probably one of the chiefs struggles.
07:25.666 --> 07:28.391
[SPEAKER_02]: So it tells me I have a lot of fear that I'm not always processing.
07:28.872 --> 07:36.267
[SPEAKER_02]: I've almost thought of it like a pit bull like I'm walking through a bad neighborhood and there's a pit bull about a block away and I'm looking over my shoulder.
07:36.398 --> 07:37.801
[SPEAKER_02]: kind of often, right?
07:37.861 --> 07:38.703
[SPEAKER_02]: Just keep my on it.
07:38.763 --> 07:43.314
[SPEAKER_02]: Keep my, it hasn't become active threat yet, but I'm just super aware that it could.
07:43.595 --> 07:47.103
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I just live with that preoccupation with what could happen.
07:47.484 --> 07:51.854
[SPEAKER_02]: When I call that worry, but you know Jeff Schulte, it did man.
07:51.874 --> 07:54.660
[SPEAKER_02]: He had this moment with me at one point where he's like, what if you just went,
07:54.640 --> 08:05.161
[SPEAKER_02]: turned around and grabbed the pit will buy the ears and got good in a freight of what you're afraid of instead of managing to anxiety and that would actually be the path forward as opposed to just chronic anxiety.
08:05.181 --> 08:06.544
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm never really totally afraid.
08:06.624 --> 08:11.313
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just monitoring the thing that could happen constantly like an open app.
08:11.954 --> 08:13.898
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think that intervention would work for you.
08:13.878 --> 08:15.401
[SPEAKER_04]: Not even close.
08:15.421 --> 08:19.708
[SPEAKER_04]: You said pit bull and a actually a body temperature went up.
08:19.768 --> 08:23.915
[SPEAKER_04]: My jaws got tight a little bit of a little bit afraid of dogs.
08:24.135 --> 08:24.376
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
08:24.856 --> 08:25.057
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
08:25.077 --> 08:28.583
[SPEAKER_02]: You probably had an experience with probably a story in the real world that was danger.
08:28.843 --> 08:38.299
[SPEAKER_04]: There is and it's embedded deeply and I don't even know the origin of it, but here how I know that is I have such a reaction to them to this day.
08:38.279 --> 08:41.367
[SPEAKER_04]: Yep, and uh, yes, and it's instant.
08:41.427 --> 08:43.753
[SPEAKER_04]: This could raise you, you know, Todd knows that about me.
08:43.853 --> 08:49.166
[SPEAKER_04]: And when you were describing, when you described grabbing that dog, I felt my body do something.
08:49.427 --> 08:49.707
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
08:50.148 --> 08:50.329
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry.
08:50.349 --> 08:52.695
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't mean to trigger it, but yeah, the body keeps the score.
08:52.715 --> 08:54.499
[SPEAKER_02]: So he's getting anxious over there.
08:54.479 --> 08:57.307
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I wasn't trying to assimilate in real time, but hey, there we go.
08:57.969 --> 09:00.215
[SPEAKER_02]: How does control play into that as well?
09:00.276 --> 09:02.783
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you see people who say, how am I control freak?
09:03.705 --> 09:05.811
[SPEAKER_02]: What are they saying when they say that?
09:05.851 --> 09:08.860
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what does it, what does control do with, have to do with fear?
09:09.076 --> 09:12.060
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you're trying to control the anxiety, right?
09:12.080 --> 09:16.506
[SPEAKER_01]: So the control is, I've got to make sure everything around me is safe so that I'm safe.
09:16.886 --> 09:21.552
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to control people, places, things, out of my anxiety that I'm in danger.
09:21.592 --> 09:26.839
[SPEAKER_01]: I may or may not be in danger, but the anxiety just said it, like I'm constantly looking around.
09:26.859 --> 09:28.581
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to now control my environment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't have to keep looking around.
09:30.624 --> 09:36.251
[SPEAKER_01]: But in doing the control of the environment is I'm really not paying attention to what's going on in me.
09:36.291 --> 09:39.015
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm paying attention to what's going outside of me.
09:38.995 --> 09:41.577
[SPEAKER_01]: and that that will lead into the impairment, the impairment.
09:41.658 --> 09:45.962
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm going to rage to gain control over the things I cannot control.
09:46.022 --> 09:48.764
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, you think about a cat in a pitball.
09:48.844 --> 09:51.167
[SPEAKER_01]: You put a cat in the corner over there and you bring a pitball.
09:51.747 --> 09:55.711
[SPEAKER_01]: That cat is going to do whatever it has to do in order to say safe.
09:56.111 --> 09:57.553
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to, any will rage.
09:57.753 --> 09:59.254
[SPEAKER_01]: It will go ballistic.
09:59.615 --> 10:03.398
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's that place of I'm going to control this dog more than this dog is going to control me.
10:03.539 --> 10:04.439
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to punch first.
10:04.559 --> 10:04.880
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
10:04.980 --> 10:07.202
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to do damage so I'm not damaged.
10:07.502 --> 10:08.243
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
10:08.223 --> 10:08.523
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
10:08.543 --> 10:09.725
[SPEAKER_02]: We talked about rage.
10:09.745 --> 10:12.828
[SPEAKER_02]: We mentioned in the anger episode that anger's different than rage.
10:13.849 --> 10:15.951
[SPEAKER_02]: What is your operating definition of rage?
10:15.971 --> 10:18.394
[SPEAKER_02]: How else do I know when they're seeing that play out?
10:19.595 --> 10:22.899
[SPEAKER_04]: Rage is where I'm lashing out in terror.
10:23.259 --> 10:26.663
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a couple of adages that really do make sense.
10:27.263 --> 10:34.551
[SPEAKER_04]: Two scenarios often you'll have a bigger person beating up on a smaller person, like a school yard bully
10:34.531 --> 10:40.245
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, this big old guy, these younger people, and some of the convention of wisdom says, well, they're just insecure.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Well, that happens to be true.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That old tale is really true, and that when people, the classic pictures and people of them are right or turning over tables and screaming and, you know, and beating people up in that kind of thing,
10:52.655 --> 11:08.520
[SPEAKER_04]: but rage runs on a continuum, silent rage, freezing people out, biting, starting not good nature, we're friends, bantering, but sarcastic intended to punch and cut those examples of rage.
11:08.500 --> 11:18.487
[SPEAKER_04]: anxiety has run its course and I'm over here by myself and isolation I'm going to do something to push you away to disintegrate you so I can be safe.
11:19.209 --> 11:24.062
[SPEAKER_04]: So the the outruth of the disintegrate you can destroy a room at the classic picture.
11:24.042 --> 11:36.061
[SPEAKER_04]: It's I think one of the best films in history is it's a wonderful life and you see the scene, if you've seen the movie, if you see the scene where George Bailey comes into his house on Christmas Eve, it's a festive occasion, they're trimming the tree, they're going to all stuff.
11:36.081 --> 11:37.343
[SPEAKER_04]: Kids are doing decorations.
11:37.383 --> 11:38.385
[SPEAKER_04]: They have a lot of things.
11:38.405 --> 11:38.665
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And so and he has lost his company and he comes in in his wife asking a question, she says, what's the matter?
11:46.958 --> 11:51.563
[SPEAKER_04]: and rather than saying we'll come in here so the kids don't hear come in here here's what's happened.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Uncle Bill little strong money in this saying and I'm really really afraid he lashes out he's sarcastic he's he's irritated that one of his oldest son hero child says dad the brown's got a new car and he's like what's wrong with our car and all these little things are happening and then he finally
12:09.503 --> 12:38.548
[SPEAKER_04]: the phone call and zoos who sick he's just had it and he destroys his living room yeah he's he may be angry but that is fueled by how terrified he has he's lost his company it's Christmas Eve he doesn't know what to do and he destroys his dreams he scale models of bridges and buildings that he's put he has he has a dream is a child and so that's a that is a an amazing picture of how a really good man is raging he didn't come in the door
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[SPEAKER_04]: sarcasm irritability lashing out and finally ended up with this fit that he threw because he was terrified he lost his business.
12:47.828 --> 12:53.220
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but so insightful when you see somebody raging to to back in Reversions in here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What are they afraid of?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm
12:55.184 --> 12:56.646
[SPEAKER_02]: In his case, financial ruin.
12:56.826 --> 12:58.168
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe he couldn't provide for his family.
12:58.188 --> 13:00.131
[SPEAKER_02]: And those are very real fears, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: He's processing them in a really broken way.
13:02.694 --> 13:05.858
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes we see rage at a collective level.
13:05.919 --> 13:11.486
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like some of what we watched happen in 2020 with the pandemic, which was a very scary and disarranging thing.
13:11.506 --> 13:17.654
[SPEAKER_02]: It was really the first pandemic that was truly global that the US certainly encountered at a widespread level.
13:18.075 --> 13:21.179
[SPEAKER_02]: You had probably economic fears of stuff being shut down.
13:21.239 --> 13:22.541
[SPEAKER_02]: It's my restaurant going to make it.
13:22.601 --> 13:24.043
[SPEAKER_02]: It's my company going to make it.
13:24.023 --> 13:42.051
[SPEAKER_02]: You had, you also had a lot around Vax or no Vax, Massacre, no Mass, they didn't have the George Floyd conflict and all that, but what it seemed like was happening in our country at least was a collective, impaired fear where people were not in control and realized they were not in control.
13:42.191 --> 13:45.576
[SPEAKER_02]: And then when all the way to rage and you started having collective rage,
13:45.556 --> 14:00.860
[SPEAKER_02]: You start seeing it play out on social media, you start seeing it play out in local churches where they're starting to fight against one another and all that unadressed fear is showing up in that attacking, verbal attack, you know, and all kinds of strange brokenness and relationships.
14:01.581 --> 14:09.734
[SPEAKER_02]: There was really, it seemed like a collective rage and I mean, I just agreed, it was like, okay, that's a litmus test, even in the church that we don't know how to deal with fear.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We don't yet know how to process it and so we're raging.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And what's so sad to me, Duke, is perhaps well-meaning pastors and other leaders and church will say, do not be afraid, and yet these same people will spend hours preparing a message.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And if you ask them, well, what do you know, it's preparation for, and the well I want to make sure the the languages are accurate.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, so you are afraid the language won't be accurate.
14:41.619 --> 14:44.543
[SPEAKER_04]: I wanted to be engaging for people to pay attention because it's important.
14:44.983 --> 14:47.005
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, you're afraid it won't be entering it won't pay attention.
14:47.366 --> 14:52.171
[SPEAKER_04]: So every, if the word, when we say the word preparation, we're talking about healthy fear.
14:52.651 --> 14:56.215
[SPEAKER_04]: We'll say that pastor will either stop studying,
14:56.313 --> 15:11.335
[SPEAKER_04]: or stop saying that because if you prepare your message, you're listening to healthy fear like, yeah, I want this to be, this has got to work, I want to communicate it in a way that people can understand it, engage with it, like, what, yes, and you know, you're, you're
15:11.315 --> 15:26.110
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll put all player Duke in a young kind of way, but you're an old football player, and you know, in every single practice that a football team goes through is healthy fear to prepare for these other 11 guys over there that want to stop you from doing what you're there to do.
15:26.150 --> 15:31.896
[SPEAKER_04]: So in all kind of when a pilot does a pre-flight inspection of the aircraft, it's healthy fear.
15:32.016 --> 15:38.402
[SPEAKER_04]: So when we prepared Todd mentioned preparing for battle, if you take that wide definition of battle, meaning living,
15:38.382 --> 15:43.667
[SPEAKER_04]: As we prepare to do things, we're listening to healthy fear so we can do it wisely with the certainty.
15:43.928 --> 15:44.068
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
15:44.088 --> 15:49.153
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a great transition into the gift and the need, how do we move healthy through fear?
15:49.474 --> 16:00.865
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm going to deal honestly with it, let's say I'm becoming convinced, wait a minute, I have a lot more fear than I realized and I don't want to rage and I don't want to be a control freak, I want to move into the direction that actually is relational and it's healthy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: How do I process it?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What do I do with it?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's paying attention what's going on in me and what's going on around me and taking what's going on in me and around me to other people right to ask them for help being needy of Processing my fears and I think what Phil said just a moment ago of his or mind I think oftentimes we
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[SPEAKER_01]: I have a little bit of fear.
16:23.900 --> 16:24.641
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a lot of fear.
16:24.661 --> 16:26.424
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, you either do or you don't.
16:26.505 --> 16:28.628
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, so often we want to rate fear.
16:28.889 --> 16:32.155
[SPEAKER_01]: What's most scary, what's least scary, it's like no fear is fear.
16:32.235 --> 16:35.260
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just pay attention to it because you can pay attention to it.
16:35.320 --> 16:42.874
[SPEAKER_01]: Then you won't try to control it and you'll just become very needy with God and other people to walk out of that.
16:42.914 --> 16:44.637
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's where you
16:44.617 --> 16:49.924
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think of a proper 17, the fear of the Lord leads us to wisdom.
16:50.645 --> 16:54.089
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, okay, like, I have to have healthy fear in order to have wisdom.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I have to be honest with what I'm afraid about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's a lot of, and we'll talk about this in another podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I think healthy shame will lead us to a healthy fear.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm very, very limited.
17:06.605 --> 17:07.946
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't see everything.
17:07.966 --> 17:09.308
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know everything.
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[SPEAKER_01]: got to give me the fear to see what I don't see.
17:12.494 --> 17:16.982
[SPEAKER_01]: So I can navigate through life with that level of healthy fear.
17:17.362 --> 17:27.280
[SPEAKER_01]: And that will then translate as I walk with other people, so there's the process of really paying attention to me and what's going on in me, and what's going on around me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I love that.
17:28.362 --> 17:52.660
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a there's a cop-less business man in that honest if you get his name but wrote a book said you know essentially said only the paranoid survive and it was basically saying in business If you're not paying attention to cash flow if you're not paying attention to your competitors You're not paying attention to the market area other thing and paying attention to all that you're not going to make it You're not going to be able to you're not going to be able to have wisdom skill in business if you're not paying attention all the threats and all the things that are coming against you and so
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[SPEAKER_02]: Fear is actually a gift that can help us account for reality as it actually is and begin to be more skillful and how we navigate it This is interesting.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We talk about David.
18:02.731 --> 18:09.939
[SPEAKER_02]: We talk about someone who was so emotionally present a man after God's own heart And it was and David is not weak He has a mighty men following him.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He's doing actual hand-to-hand combat He's a king.
18:13.582 --> 18:16.926
[SPEAKER_02]: He's a competent leader and he had David's afraid a lot
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[SPEAKER_02]: We see a lot of songs where he's showing up with fear, and he's showing up terrified, and but he's discovering, like you're saying, there's a neediness about him, that comes into God and he starts to describe God as a refuge or an ever-present hope in need.
18:31.460 --> 18:41.690
[SPEAKER_02]: And so because he's willing to be needy, really feel his fear, he has, I believe, has something more with God than what many of us have, because he's dealing honestly with the threats.
18:41.770 --> 18:42.711
[SPEAKER_02]: And they were real.
18:42.691 --> 18:43.172
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Saul's doing spares at him, like he's hiding in caves.
18:46.319 --> 18:48.443
[SPEAKER_02]: He's got military might coming against him.
18:49.365 --> 18:53.534
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, even then the most faint probably in the most famous story about David with Goliath.
18:54.576 --> 19:02.353
[SPEAKER_04]: If you look at the rather undramatic outpouring of fear that he had there, he, he put on Saul's armor.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And when this doesn't fit me I'm afraid if I go out there and fight this guy with this armor on I'm not going to make it so healthy fear said I can't do this is not wise for me and I know the old line you know he picked up for some stones because a lot of head three brothers he picked up for some stones in case he missed with the first three
19:22.550 --> 19:35.698
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, because he was listening to healthy fear, you know, I think I can knock this dude out with one, but just in case I'm going to get more rocks and even that store, the new aunt is under that story is a picture of healthy fear.
19:36.218 --> 19:49.550
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I'm going to be wise about this, and yeah, I mentioned it, you know, I ironically earlier in Ephesians six, like, yeah, armor is probably pretty wise, but like you can look at that went, no, I'm afraid this is going to keep impede me from doing what I need to do.
19:50.071 --> 19:52.157
[SPEAKER_04]: And then he got more rocks than just one.
19:52.177 --> 19:53.620
[SPEAKER_04]: And so even those little,
19:53.600 --> 20:02.220
[SPEAKER_04]: kind of hidden details, even in that story, this man who knew was so acquainted with his own fear, had all kinds of reason.
20:02.240 --> 20:03.243
[SPEAKER_04]: He's in the cave of Adele.
20:03.263 --> 20:04.085
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm fearing for his life.
20:04.125 --> 20:08.976
[SPEAKER_04]: These other guys around him, you know, and so he does have so much pathos in his story.
20:08.956 --> 20:21.579
[SPEAKER_04]: And then even before, or as a backdrop to so many of those Psalms, he wrote how afraid he was, he's already practicing what it means to have wisdom and disarmament that comes from healthy fear, just with the fight with Goliath.
20:21.659 --> 20:22.741
[SPEAKER_04]: Yep, that's so good.
20:23.142 --> 20:28.371
[SPEAKER_02]: And for those that maybe are thinking, I still wonder if fear is an evidence of a lack of faith.
20:29.293 --> 20:32.719
[SPEAKER_02]: Where do we see Jesus who was without sin, experiencing fear?
20:32.699 --> 20:56.733
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, and we literally cannot begin to imagine that Jesus, God in human flesh, was about to take on all sin, all sin, that leads us to utter corruption in our humanness, and he's in the Garden of Gessimony, and he tells his friends, I am overwhelmed with sorrow.
20:56.833 --> 20:58.355
[SPEAKER_04]: We just talked about sadness earlier.
20:58.395 --> 20:59.617
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm overwhelmed with sorrow.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Please come be with me.
21:01.960 --> 21:09.106
[SPEAKER_04]: And he asked the cup to pass before him because only Jesus would have the eyes to see what what what laid before him.
21:09.687 --> 21:15.252
[SPEAKER_04]: And they brighter Hebrews tells us a little bit, but for the joy set before him he suffered the scorn and shame.
21:15.312 --> 21:22.539
[SPEAKER_04]: And so that to me is such a picture of how Jesus is saying, This is literally eternally huge.
21:23.640 --> 21:31.967
[SPEAKER_02]: I do not want to do this.
21:31.947 --> 21:35.370
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, just anybody going to the death penalty.
21:35.610 --> 21:37.412
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and they're really paying attention, right?
21:37.592 --> 21:39.554
[SPEAKER_02]: Fear is an appropriate response to danger.
21:40.415 --> 21:46.761
[SPEAKER_02]: But also knows that he's had unbroken fellowship with the Father in the Spirit since eternity passed and knows what that sever's gonna be like.
21:46.781 --> 21:49.143
[SPEAKER_02]: That my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
21:49.784 --> 21:53.267
[SPEAKER_02]: He's dealing with that at a psychic level going, this is terrifying.
21:53.788 --> 21:55.649
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, and he's fully human, right?
21:55.689 --> 21:57.231
[SPEAKER_02]: He's just going, I am terrified.
21:57.251 --> 22:01.515
[SPEAKER_02]: Who wants to die by crucifixion?
22:01.495 --> 22:03.919
[SPEAKER_02]: What would it say about Jesus if he wasn't afraid?
22:03.939 --> 22:04.179
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
22:04.479 --> 22:07.284
[SPEAKER_02]: In some ways it would maybe make a case against this humanity.
22:07.684 --> 22:11.029
[SPEAKER_02]: That he wasn't really fully human because he was a superhero.
22:11.049 --> 22:16.157
[SPEAKER_02]: He was a stoic above the fray guy who didn't really worry about crucifixion.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's not a big thing to me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like no, in full humanity.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like any sane human paying attention is a terrified at that moment.
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[SPEAKER_04]: It's like one writer said, I think it was C.S.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Lewis, but I kind of have a habit of staying, think it C.S.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Lewis wrote literally everything.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So I don't feel it was him or not, but I believe it was him that said that the crucifixion or the cross in art and jewelry only became popular after the last person who had seen a crucifixion died.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I think it would not want any reminder that whatsoever.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that puts electric chairs on our necklaces and wearing those around as a symbol.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, that's so, that's so helpful.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And what happens when we start to have a community that knows how to deal well with fear?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Was it feel like to be in a family or a church that just is able to process it well and kind of step into it?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think, you know, we begin to see things and say in the things and speak in the things.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the wisest man, you know, that's Solomon, had so much fear, but here's what's going to do.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The whiz, if we pay attention our fear, it's going to move us back into our sadness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I think we, because we don't want to do sadness, we're also not willing to be fearful of it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we live without fear and sadness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Salam said at the best, he said, with much knowledge or much wisdom, it's going to come much sorrow.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Those two things are going to be coupled together and so I don't think we want to do the fear because we're not allowed to We also don't want to do sadness and those two go hand in hand according to the wisest man to ever live like if you're going to be wise You will have sorrow He's like and we're like that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to do those two So I think the more we get into our healthy fear the more the more recognition we have of who who I am and who you are and who God is it like
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[SPEAKER_01]: All these and, you know, I think we've been saying it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want to be needy people, because we don't want to be needy people, we don't want to actually do the feelings.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so we become a needy community.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What we deal with our fear.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And there's this added kind of coat tail on what Todd just said that just added that faith and fear don't coexist.
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[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, you know, human experience and life and the body together says that if I don't have any fear, I don't see faith as necessary.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And so it's such a ironic added, it's come about, like Todd said, we intuitively, we emotionally, spiritually recognize that I'm making a beeline for that sorrow, like Solomon said.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And so what do we need in sorrow?
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[SPEAKER_04]: Fortification through presence.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And so faith and fear have to coexist.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And we go, that's where faith becomes operative.
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[SPEAKER_04]: It's just a theory
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[SPEAKER_02]: I would say the seasons when I've been most afraid are the seasons that I've been most close to obeying the scripture to pray without season, and to walk or truly abide, but it's been out of the awareness of the need, and so we try to tell people to have all this faith without really being honest about the need.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't have need, but have all this faith anyway, and it's like, no, no, the only way you're really going to come to a place of deep about faith is if you're fully aware of how bad the situation actually is, how many bad things can
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[SPEAKER_02]: And now you realize that God isn't ever present home in need.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And when you when those things are you're dealing honestly with both those things you're you're you're abiding you're walking by faith in the moment to moment of the tension of a trial or a certain stance that is just way beyond beyond you and now you get intimacy with God.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because you're dealing honest with a fear and so not dealing with fear.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'll say that one of the biggest threats is like you're just gonna have a lot less intimacy with God A lot less evidence of his grace and his ever-present help You're just gonna and and you're gonna still deal with the byproducts of the anxiety and control in the rage It's it's really not wisdom to not deal honestly with fear And so I hope that's one thing that happens over the coming years.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we normalize we clarify what fear is we teach people how to pray like David with their fear
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[SPEAKER_02]: So let they can have his just a testimony of, hey, he has been my home, he has been my deliverer, he has been my refuge, all the things that they was able to say with integrity because he was me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's right, because it showed up.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the reform podcast.
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