WEBVTT
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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Reform and be in private podcasts and bracing the beauty and brokenness in your journey with God.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy this episode!
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[SPEAKER_04]: My name is Dukervard, I'm joined by CEO of the In-Project Nathan Wartner.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What's going on?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, whoa.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hey.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I've got a waterfall run, man.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I've still earned in with ten man ministries.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Really excited to have another episode around theology of emotion.
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[SPEAKER_04]: This podcast is really about examining the interior life of a human and talking about what are we made?
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[SPEAKER_04]: with.
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[SPEAKER_04]: What do we have existing in us that enables us to connect deeply with God, self and others?
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[SPEAKER_04]: In many ways, a motion has been underdeveloped in our theology.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Robert Clinton, who many of you might know from his, his seminal work, the making of a leader.
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[SPEAKER_04]: It's a long time professor of leadership at Fuller Seminary.
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[SPEAKER_04]: He reportedly at his retirement party was asked, hey, what should the church be working on next?
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[SPEAKER_04]: And Clinton said, we really need
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[SPEAKER_04]: There's a motion is, and I'm speaking for him now, but a motion is too much a feature of what it's like to be human and too little talked about.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, without a doubt.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Amongst the illusions and the church.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And so this podcast is really an attempt to start that conversation at least in the Eden Project.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Excited that you guys are here to join us today.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Today's topic is does God have a motion.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And so actually that's great theology to always do.
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[SPEAKER_02]: God have a motion.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We're done.
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[SPEAKER_04]: We're going to wrap it up.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Very good.
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[SPEAKER_04]: This is a micro podcast.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That's been awesome.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you guys.
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[SPEAKER_04]: But it is good theology to start with who is God.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And so let's kick it off that way.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_04]: How have people often thought about God as it relates to emotion?
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[SPEAKER_04]: Let's start there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think in my experience, most people fall into two different categories.
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[SPEAKER_02]: One is, there's obviously the Western influence, the post-enlightenment rationalism of just a really, in a lot of ways, a disembodied anthropology.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Of, hey, humans are primarily thinking creatures were primarily rational.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like you guys talked about in the last episode, emotions are kind of like,
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[SPEAKER_02]: If they might be real, but they're not really reliable, and especially when they go against the data.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so in a lot of ways, I think what you see is a lot of Greek influence, and then a lot of just post enlightenment influence to really think about God primarily in rationalistic terms.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So this is the, this is the God of the Philosophers, it's the, in some of the other language on some of our other channel podcasts that got in the brain and we talk about a God concept that people have, they're, they're, they're, they kind of view him as someone who's over there to be examined, who in a lot of ways can be, you know, a very still faced, very static type person,
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[SPEAKER_02]: where it's just like, hey, I just need the information from God that he's trying to give me so that I can be good as a Christian and believe the right things and then do the right things.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so there's that, there's on one front, there's kind of this unemotional God whose primarily mind, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: But then I also see, which is super interesting, this whole other side of people who experience God, especially as they read the Old Testament, primarily, although as a whole other thing, we'll go there right now.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But when they read the Old Testament, they see, and they can feel like, oh, but God, if he does have a motion, then he's like, he has kind of a hairline trigger temper.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He's very, it feels like emotionally arbitrary, like he just kind of blows up at people.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so and it clearly we know like humans have emotions about that like if God is like that I have feelings about that But he's God So like I can't argue with him
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[SPEAKER_02]: which means like he's either this disembodied mind that I'm just have to try to dissect to get the right information or he's somebody who and this is and we know this as well just through research like the primary emotional experience that people have with God is that he's angry.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But his anger even though we don't a lot of times we want to allow ourselves to experience it or to really be honest about it or if we do experience it We don't we don't feel like we can actually argue with God because he's God.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So shut up get in line and just do the thing, right which and then I'll pass it over to you Phil Which is a horrible way of of giving a theological foundation to people to go
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[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, God is love, and people are like, yeah, I know that, but it's definitely not my experience.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so, I think that's, if I had to say where most people are actually starting from, does God have a motion, it's one or two or both of those things like simultaneously.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So helpful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Modern Western man put it that way is like okay, God either completely apathetic Which means feelings are bad because he wants nothing to do with them or are God's completely reactive Yeah, he's volatile.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and like man.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So what's the safest thing to do stick with the facts stick with data because men he's either God or
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[SPEAKER_01]: God.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We tend to look easy.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They're shrugging or about to strike.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we make sure we stay right in between and we attribute to God.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Even movies like E.T., Nathan, you're describing, you know, Steven Spielberg created a limbic brain that could talk.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the children,
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, someone named Jesus said, unless you change to become like one of these, can I enter the kingdom of God, point to children, the children loved E. T said, E. T phone home and millions of adults went to.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so we, we, we,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Children say, yes, they want to play with him, be with him, love on him.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The adults want to chop him into pieces.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I see them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hellenistic, Greek want to chop him into pieces and dissect them and study him and analyze him.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Go straight up to the brain.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's sometimes how we say, God, we're either going to chop God up into the theological pieces.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, good.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Going right books about him or we're going to cover hover in the corner or try to be a good boy, a good girl to make sure that reactivity doesn't happen.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I love that film that you brought in the child lightness because it does seem like an honest anthropology sometimes is most clearly seen in children Yeah, because they haven't learned how to hide.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They're going to cover over and so they'll be Spielberg created the silicon brain.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We all wait
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[SPEAKER_04]: So those are some negative interpretations of God and motion.
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[SPEAKER_04]: What is the scripture actually revealed about God as it relates to a motion?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think, I mean, this is where...
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[SPEAKER_02]: I've got a lot of healthy anger around this one because I mean, you're not both have been formally trained theologically and so much of our training was kind of that left-brain rationalistic pedagogy, the hate just get the right information and you know, exaget God.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And yet, I think to before the scriptures are anything, they're, especially the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, is Jewish meditation literature.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's not something ultimately to be dissected.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's something to enter into.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's a whole other world, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: which is why when you're, you know, when we're talking about, you know, some of the narrative of Genesis and Exodus, the wisdom literature, the poetry of the Psalms, even the prophetic material is, is God as a lover chasing an obstinate bride.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I just summarize the Psalms, yes, you know.
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[SPEAKER_02]: catching the tree, or missing the forest.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so what I would say is, in order to really understand what the scriptures are, you really have to start with where they start.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And unfortunately, most people start in the Hebrew Bible in Genesis 3.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, got it already created.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, we got it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It got us a greater of awesome, which again, it's a very Western, you know, rationalistic type, ex-nehalo got created out of nothing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And yet, what you see in Genesis 1 and 2 is the foundation of a creator who is creating out of love.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He already exists eternally within himself in a relationship of love, a trinitarian relationship of love.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then that what you see is it's
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[SPEAKER_02]: into the material world.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He is zoning a material world to go along to be with my creation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And you see God make this material world that he's making sacred space.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He is out of love is shaping and forming humans out of the dirt, out of the dust of the ground.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And he's animating them with his own breath.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, this is total familial language, it's parenting language, it's royalty language.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, all of that stuff.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so, before we ever get to Genesis chapter 3, we have to start and acknowledge that what you have in Genesis 1 and 2 is the foundation of the entire narrative.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And the people in the narrative is a benevolent God who is love, who is who is
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[SPEAKER_02]: forming creatures in his own image.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, well, we've done podcasts on this and on another channel in the Edenverse.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Go check that out.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But just the depth of the intimacy, the involvement, the parental oversight and even empowerment to launch his creation out to go, you guys do this with me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, oh my gosh, let's see it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: with.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, exactly great.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I love it.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And I want to pivot to you, Phil, because you have a, you're great, theologian.
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[SPEAKER_04]: You have a strong trinitarian theology, but you've also had a lot of experience with functional anthropology, working with actual humans who don't know how to get in touch with what's actually going on in their chest.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And what does it mean to be an image bearer?
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[SPEAKER_04]: As you think about trinitarian relationality and your functional anthropology,
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[SPEAKER_04]: What do we learn about the nature of God in that, even looking at ourselves, the knowledge of God and the emotional life and the interior life, and that's it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Just think about, guys, just think about just the topic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Talk about your story.
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[SPEAKER_01]: talk about where you grew up.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Think about what all happened inside a human being just when you say that statement about how we're informed by parents, by coaches, by whomever.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And when you look across scripture, starting in Genesis 1 into not after starting there, this parental and Nathan's word will go.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This parental idea in Hosea, not only do you have this man chasing after an adulterous bride, which in in and of itself is a motif of pursuit and lovely heartache, grief, and wanting.
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[SPEAKER_01]: At the end of that book, there is this picture of God taking little ephrium by the hands and teaching him how to walk.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like how can you be?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so functionally speaking, like children have experiences when they were learning to walk literally and relationally.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm learning to walk relationally and what does that mean dad?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean mom?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean coach?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean whomever?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so the functional anthropologist, the living out of that is yes, we know we know over here.
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[SPEAKER_01]: about what the facts are about God.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He's Creator Exynilo, he just went into, but the living out of that, the reason I'm coaching off with, there is a with, motif, through Scripture, foundational in the love of God in which in our stories functionally speaking.
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[SPEAKER_01]: These early experiences and experiences as we go, where that with is broken, is where this emotional world comes in and like, when I'm not with this person who takes care of me, with this person who loves me when they're not with me and I'm not with them, if the rupture isn't repaired to use Alan just words.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The rupture is never repaired that I'm walking around blindly as a survivor.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And my the function of my human is then becomes how do I survive and we most often relegate to I'm not going to feel these things.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to find a way to figure out life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what has actually tried to control it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's fear.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The end of the day.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so I think, you know, in talking about, hey, does God have emotion, what does Scripture say about this?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, obviously we started off by saying yes, he does.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so it is interesting to look at the full spectrum of the emotional life of God.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You see someone who is clearly has a motion and is showing up and being honest about it, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it goes all the way from joy and gladness and excitement and things like that to anger and wrath and
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[SPEAKER_02]: And things that people look at and just be like, man, how do you square this?
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, as an Apologist, one of the common questions that we always get is, you know, how does the loving God allow bad things to happen?
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[SPEAKER_02]: How can God be loving and also be angry?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and so some of those things just need to get teased out.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, I'm just wondering, you know, from you Phil, when you look at the emotional life of God and the full spectrum of that, like what would you want the audience to know in regard to, you know, hey, how does all that work with God as we understand as image bears, as we examine ourselves?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then go, okay, what do we see?
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we can only open the letter that's addressed us, as Lewis said, which is ourselves.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so we open that up and we go, okay, what can this help inform us about the emotion that God does feel and what do we see in the scriptures of how he's navigating that?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'll go back to the pun intended, Genesis of Eden Project.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Eden Project says, we say in these rooms, here in Dallas, here is the foundational truth about God.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He is love, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: He is love.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so all that comes from that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so because of our humanness and our story, and then what happened to Genesis 3 and beyond,
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[SPEAKER_01]: there are breaches all over the place around that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But we go back to that foundational idea that God is love.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Then his wrath, his joy, his pursuit, his anger, his celebration, his singing over us.
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[SPEAKER_01]: All of those things in Scripture that come about, if we recognize only an emotional level, we recognize with awe, reverential fear.
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[SPEAKER_01]: that everything he does and says emanates from God, perfect love, yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Then the square up is in that statement.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, what emanates from him to us comes from a perfect love.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that perfect love says, what I do and say is ultimately for my glory, which is the greatest good that could ever be.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's also for your good, whether you can experience that now or not.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where people that say, oh, you can have faith.
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[SPEAKER_01]: with fear is like, no, no, no, no.
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[SPEAKER_01]: As scary as that statement is, okay, this is for my good.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't see it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really afraid you're not from my good, and I will trust you.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, we obviously know that theology doesn't get any clearer than we look at theology and body in the person of Jesus.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So second person of the Trinity takes some flesh, dwells among us.
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[SPEAKER_04]: What do you mean you've seen the Father?
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.
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[SPEAKER_04]: What does it mean when we see Jesus put himself in such a vulnerable space,
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[SPEAKER_04]: to be rejected, to be lied about, to be killed, harmed, abandoned, a man of sorrow acquainted with grief.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Like, what do we learn about a God who says, yeah, I'll totally step into that and experience everything that it is to be human.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Uh, as a human being, what are we learning about God when we see the incarnation?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, again, as an apologist when people bring up the problem of evil, there are two different kinds of problems of evil.
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[SPEAKER_02]: One is intellectual, where it's that, hey, how can a good God
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[SPEAKER_02]: The other one is emotional, which is primary, which is what people experience when their kid gets cancer, which is what they experience when something tragic happens in their lives, which is what the pain of life, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think you answer those differently, obviously.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But the typical way that I have helped people or tried to help people as they walk through the emotional problem of evil is just a point out the reality that God has, he's not separate from our suffering, he's not removed from it, he's not going, idiot, messed it all up, you know, I'm going over here until you'll figure it out like, like, for one minute, literally.
18:10.612 --> 18:11.713
[SPEAKER_02]: the world.
18:11.734 --> 18:15.298
[SPEAKER_02]: So, that's exactly not what we see.
18:15.519 --> 18:27.835
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, the first humans, right, they believe a false narrative about God, about how their ability to find life apart from God, and because of that distorted image of God, they begin to move away from Him, out of fear, right?
18:28.556 --> 18:31.540
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when that happens, there's a relational breach.
18:31.942 --> 18:33.365
[SPEAKER_02]: We're the ones who move away, right?
18:33.645 --> 18:34.066
[SPEAKER_02]: Not God.
18:34.627 --> 18:42.824
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when that happens, then the Lord, instead of going, like I said, get out of here, I'm done with you.
18:42.864 --> 18:52.363
[SPEAKER_02]: Instead, he immediately gives them the promise what theologians call the proto-you and Gellian, the first gospel, like, okay.
18:52.512 --> 18:58.142
[SPEAKER_02]: This has happened, and it's real, and we all have a motion about it, but I'm telling you, I'm going to fix it.
18:58.923 --> 19:07.097
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, the snake, this chaos creature, will strike the woman's son's heel, but he's going to crush his head.
19:07.137 --> 19:07.979
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
19:08.520 --> 19:13.288
[SPEAKER_02]: And so you immediately see Yahweh step in and go, I am going to be...
19:13.268 --> 19:18.199
[SPEAKER_02]: the beginning, the sustaining power of and the end of the solution to this problem.
19:19.302 --> 19:32.391
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what you see in the life of Jesus, the Christ event is a long culmination of Yahweh with His people in the mud with them, right, to where He's finally and fully going, okay, here.
19:32.371 --> 19:38.841
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and that's why the writer of Hebrews says, Hey, we don't have a, we don't have someone who can't identify with our weakness.
19:39.001 --> 19:42.426
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a sympathetic high priest who suffered just like us.
19:42.466 --> 19:45.430
[SPEAKER_02]: It was tempted like us in every way, but without sin.
19:45.490 --> 19:49.636
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when you're, when you're addressing like, man, life is so hard.
19:49.677 --> 19:54.404
[SPEAKER_02]: How could God allow us to happen, which, which are very good questions that need to be addressed.
19:54.544 --> 19:58.369
[SPEAKER_02]: But they always have to start if you're going to address it from a biblical standpoint.
19:58.930 --> 20:01.534
[SPEAKER_02]: It has to start with Jesus hanging on a tree.
20:02.898 --> 20:12.283
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, a real man nailed to a tree in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago, crying out, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
20:12.871 --> 20:16.117
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to start there because this is a reality of it.
20:16.758 --> 20:35.672
[SPEAKER_02]: And so at the end of the day, what you see is you see a Yahweh again, jealously with us going, I'm laboring with you, which is total relationship in order to bring about a new reality, which is what happens in the resurrection.
20:35.652 --> 20:44.366
[SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, we've been talking about Christ as God in the flesh and the clearest theology we ever get, particularly around an anthropology and at theology.
20:45.207 --> 20:54.102
[SPEAKER_04]: Phil, what does it mean that, say, Jesus in John 17 starts talking from a place of desire and emotion about what he wants with us?
20:54.542 --> 20:59.230
[SPEAKER_04]: And he says, Father, I want them to be with me, to use your word earlier with.
20:59.210 --> 21:00.052
[SPEAKER_04]: where I am.
21:00.773 --> 21:04.760
[SPEAKER_04]: What do we learn about God when we realize he wants something with us that we want with him.
21:05.582 --> 21:10.511
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, I think that's so amazing to even have a conversation about just that one thing.
21:11.593 --> 21:14.979
[SPEAKER_01]: Think about listening to that prayer thinking on the heels.
21:15.099 --> 21:18.626
[SPEAKER_01]: This whole thing started the upper room four chapters earlier.
21:18.746 --> 21:19.227
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
21:19.207 --> 21:36.088
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, the last supper and the washing the disciples' feet and Judas, and all the, and then, and then Jesus spends the better part of three chapters, 14, 15, and 16 talking about, I'm going to be with you in ways you literally really can't even imagine.
21:36.148 --> 21:37.189
[SPEAKER_01]: It's called the Holy Spirit.
21:37.890 --> 21:47.982
[SPEAKER_01]: He'll be the perfect parent, but I'll walk them alongside you, guide you into truth, convict you of sin, like, guys, this is so good, how much I want to be with you.
21:47.962 --> 22:00.416
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, and like actually live in you, yeah, like I'm not going to be, I'm talking to Matthew and Simon over here Peter, you're out of luck, but not when this happens because it's it's everyone all the time.
22:00.576 --> 22:06.262
[SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting because I think a lot of times we're curious, like we would ask the disciples like hey, so like to walk with Jesus.
22:07.003 --> 22:13.750
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I think probably if we're there, they on some level would be like, I wonder what it's going to be like when he's walking.
22:13.730 --> 22:16.754
[SPEAKER_02]: In me, when he's in us, like what the heck?
22:16.774 --> 22:17.535
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, keep going.
22:17.676 --> 22:18.777
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a really right point.
22:18.797 --> 22:18.978
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
22:19.338 --> 22:23.364
[SPEAKER_01]: And so Jesus, he's just very parental language for the better part of three chapters.
22:23.724 --> 22:24.886
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm, I'm going to be with you.
22:24.906 --> 22:28.171
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be in you and, and dwell in you and it, God, it's a better deal.
22:28.191 --> 22:28.591
[SPEAKER_01]: Beautiful.
22:28.812 --> 22:29.513
[SPEAKER_01]: With you.
22:29.673 --> 22:30.113
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
22:30.133 --> 22:33.118
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he ends by saying, in this world is going to be trouble.
22:33.518 --> 22:38.305
[SPEAKER_01]: Not maybe, not like, if you're really nice boys, nothing will happen to be fine.
22:38.425 --> 22:40.328
[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't say that at all.
22:40.308 --> 22:46.285
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've overcome the world and as part of the evidence of that, nothing has changed in the mind of God.
22:46.465 --> 22:50.356
[SPEAKER_01]: As evidence of that, I'm going to be in you when that comes.
22:50.496 --> 22:53.625
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he praised the prayer we're talking about John 17.
22:53.740 --> 22:54.541
[SPEAKER_01]: to be with you.
22:54.621 --> 23:04.116
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that even that prayer that at least John captured, you know, award for words, as best we can tell, that Jesus is praying and think about how often there's this great quote.
23:04.717 --> 23:11.989
[SPEAKER_01]: It's in Chip's book, Voice of the Heart, I've heard in other other places, publications that says children are not afraid of the dark.
23:12.650 --> 23:14.533
[SPEAKER_01]: Children are afraid of the dark alone.
23:14.513 --> 23:26.296
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's right and Jesus is saying like you're going to be in the dark and you're never going to be alone I'm going to be with you And just think about those words like someone says to me, hey, I'm Nathan.
23:26.416 --> 23:27.358
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in your corner.
23:27.919 --> 23:32.428
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm with you I'm on your side We have the God of the universe way back.
23:32.688 --> 23:34.632
[SPEAKER_01]: Genesis 1 and we got that God
23:34.612 --> 23:36.354
[SPEAKER_01]: indwelling in us.
23:36.414 --> 23:40.219
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that with becomes so, so rich.
23:40.860 --> 23:45.926
[SPEAKER_01]: And Jesus is praying and saying, I want them to be with me where we are.
23:45.966 --> 23:54.257
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you think about just the ramifications in terms of attachment and connection and the functional anthropology that comes, just comes out of that one
23:54.237 --> 23:58.484
[SPEAKER_01]: What would I do if I knew he is with me?
23:58.664 --> 23:59.986
[SPEAKER_01]: What would I say differently?
24:00.046 --> 24:01.048
[SPEAKER_01]: How would I act differently?
24:01.408 --> 24:02.851
[SPEAKER_01]: What would I truly care about?
24:02.911 --> 24:07.538
[SPEAKER_01]: Duke, I've heard you talk about and how the priest seems like a million Germans too.
24:07.558 --> 24:12.005
[SPEAKER_01]: That idea of looking at myself doing this and that what if I would just free of that?
24:12.506 --> 24:15.250
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is I can't be because he's with me, relationally.
24:15.230 --> 24:15.851
[SPEAKER_04]: I love it.
24:16.171 --> 24:18.975
[SPEAKER_04]: I love that it's it's relational and not propositional.
24:19.516 --> 24:21.318
[SPEAKER_04]: So God is not a series of propositions.
24:21.358 --> 24:22.600
[SPEAKER_04]: He's an actual person.
24:22.780 --> 24:23.681
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
24:23.721 --> 24:32.412
[SPEAKER_04]: Community of persons try you and who wants to be with me as express that desire to his own father in Christ and now made it possible by the spirit on going.
24:32.432 --> 24:35.196
[SPEAKER_04]: So man that's that's good news.
24:35.176 --> 24:42.348
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's let me wrap this episode up Nathan because we do know about the Baylor longitudinal study on how people emotionally image God.
24:42.588 --> 24:47.235
[SPEAKER_04]: And the most dominant emotion that people attribute to God is anger or wrath.
24:47.796 --> 24:53.185
[SPEAKER_04]: How do we square the wrath of God with people who are saying, hey, there are some passages that really lead me to believe he's kind of pissed.
24:53.165 --> 24:54.788
[SPEAKER_04]: What do we do with that?
24:54.808 --> 24:55.769
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, two things.
24:55.990 --> 25:04.845
[SPEAKER_02]: One, we have to understand, again, what the scriptures are, that just because something is in the Bible doesn't mean, I mean, sometimes you hear people say this, like, well, it's in the Bible.
25:05.346 --> 25:08.972
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of stuff in the Bible that's horrible, like, it's reporting on thing.
25:08.992 --> 25:11.476
[SPEAKER_02]: It's reporting on sin and a fallen world, right?
25:11.676 --> 25:13.840
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's not good.
25:13.820 --> 25:20.166
[SPEAKER_02]: And so to understand that God is dealing with humanity, and it's really messy.
25:20.967 --> 25:31.697
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, some of the audience knows just from, you know, previous stories, and some, some of y'all listen to the equipping podcast that I was that I'm a veteran, and I'm a army veteran.
25:32.838 --> 25:38.363
[SPEAKER_02]: And two deployments in Afghanistan, and part of that part of those deployments is just combat.
25:38.643 --> 25:40.705
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you're just in an active fight kinetic.
25:41.478 --> 25:43.654
[SPEAKER_02]: we're shooting at the enemy shooting at us.
25:44.319 --> 25:46.797
[SPEAKER_02]: People are blowing up and getting shot and all that stuff.
25:48.025 --> 25:52.771
[SPEAKER_02]: And so you look at that and you're like, that's really messy, like that's not good.
25:53.672 --> 25:56.476
[SPEAKER_02]: You look at it and you go, yep, that's not the way it's supposed to be.
25:56.776 --> 26:00.581
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, as somebody who's been there done that, lived it, I'm telling you, it's not the way it's supposed to be.
26:01.983 --> 26:14.860
[SPEAKER_02]: However, whenever evil exists in the world, any force for good that steps into that mess is stepping into a really messy situation to work for good.
26:14.840 --> 26:34.345
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes working for good is eliminating threats, like doing away with a to use of mix and metaphors, but to use a surgical or a medical deal like there's a cancer there, and that cancer needs to get cut out.
26:34.565 --> 26:41.995
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you're cutting on the patient, if the patient doesn't have any understanding of the broader,
26:41.975 --> 26:49.468
[SPEAKER_02]: Reality what's going on then all they know is you're cutting on me in this hurts like stop it How can you be good?
26:49.788 --> 27:01.688
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I'm saying and and in reality what the Lord is doing is he is he's he's appropriately meeting Threats to the to the ultimate good of his people
27:01.668 --> 27:04.573
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's eliminating those threats at some point.
27:04.653 --> 27:09.681
[SPEAKER_02]: And some points, he's removing the threat and putting it somewhere else for the threat zone.
27:09.701 --> 27:10.262
[SPEAKER_02]: Good, right?
27:10.362 --> 27:17.914
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, when you look at Genesis 15, where the Lord's like, hey, I'm giving these people 400 years to repent, right?
27:18.374 --> 27:25.405
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, so y'all are going to go off into Egypt, and I'm going to keep you there because I'm long suffering with these people over here, right?
27:25.806 --> 27:27.709
[SPEAKER_02]: So what he says in Genesis 15,
27:27.689 --> 27:41.263
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the Lord is constantly taking a very complicated, sinful, broken world, and he is entering into it and laboring with it.
27:42.044 --> 27:42.965
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's just messy.
27:43.265 --> 27:52.735
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes it looks like the Lord going, hey guys, if I was to allow the to take an Old Testament example,
27:52.715 --> 27:54.798
[SPEAKER_02]: the rebellion with the sons of Korra.
27:55.399 --> 28:10.423
[SPEAKER_02]: If I was to allow that to just like go unchecked and like not deal with that at all, like you're gonna completely misunderstand who I am, how I operate, and that's a fast track to pay the paganism that they had been in the whole time.
28:11.024 --> 28:13.288
[SPEAKER_02]: And so he's training his people,
28:13.268 --> 28:30.433
[SPEAKER_02]: right which involves the earth opening up and swallowing people it it involves a plague's breaking out and involves like things like this because it's it's his loving way of going hey um i am ultimately working for your your ultimate good
28:30.413 --> 28:41.628
[SPEAKER_02]: And you may not understand that right now, just like a patient may not understand the incision point to remove a tumor, but I'm just telling you, that's what's going on.
28:42.069 --> 28:42.950
[SPEAKER_02]: And you see that.
28:43.271 --> 28:58.311
[SPEAKER_02]: Now if you pluck that out, those instances out of context, not just contextually within the book, they're in, but within the covenant they're in, but within the entire biblical meta narrative, if you pluck them out and just look at them, then yeah.
28:58.291 --> 28:59.533
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, God's totally volatile.
28:59.933 --> 29:03.499
[SPEAKER_02]: He's reactionary, he's, you know, he's just pissed.
29:03.519 --> 29:04.981
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're like, yeah, I know.
29:05.161 --> 29:06.923
[SPEAKER_02]: I have to appease him, or that's gonna happen to me.
29:07.364 --> 29:09.026
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's the way we started the podcast, right?
29:09.647 --> 29:26.712
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why I have so much like healthy anger to go, and no, no, no, no, we have to understand the entire biblical meta-narrative because when you see those things within the broad story of what God is doing in the world of the German word as a cool words, the highest gishikata.
29:27.282 --> 29:28.584
[SPEAKER_02]: favorite.
29:28.624 --> 29:31.849
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so much money for seminary after that and just in talks period.
29:31.869 --> 29:34.994
[SPEAKER_01]: I just say I'll just shit because it's just after, right?
29:35.014 --> 29:36.076
[SPEAKER_01]: It means like story.
29:37.518 --> 29:45.791
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's the the house Kishikta is the is is this the history of salvation of God with his people over generations in millennia, right?
29:46.192 --> 29:52.682
[SPEAKER_02]: When you look at that then then what becomes obviously clear is oh
29:53.287 --> 30:12.375
[SPEAKER_04]: really does love he really loves us he created us to be followed into the trinitarian reality and when that got severed or ruptured he was totally willing to at great cost himself restore it and to pray prayers like I want them to be with me where right now we have to acknowledge that not everybody is going to be with him where he is
30:12.355 --> 30:14.437
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the real tragedy, right?
30:14.677 --> 30:19.302
[SPEAKER_02]: It truly, I mean, just even now just saying it, my chest, I'm checking in, like my chest gets heavy.
30:20.323 --> 30:25.088
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, man, it's a, the wrath of God is real.
30:25.949 --> 30:30.834
[SPEAKER_02]: And the wrath of God is against injustice and unrighteousness.
30:32.315 --> 30:39.122
[SPEAKER_02]: Because if God doesn't finally and fully intervene, then he can no longer be good.
30:39.102 --> 30:39.484
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
30:39.644 --> 30:47.458
[SPEAKER_02]: Because it's like, hey, somebody fix the brokenness and the wrath of God really is it's an extension of his love
30:47.641 --> 30:58.616
[SPEAKER_02]: Because if his love is finally and fully pursuing the highest good of the beloved as far as it could be obtained, well what is what does the love of God look like for somebody who will not be loved?
30:59.417 --> 31:11.033
[SPEAKER_02]: Who will not know matter what and will not stop oppressing what that's right like what does it look like then well then it looks like wrath yes right so really the wrath of God is the love of God
31:11.013 --> 31:18.050
[SPEAKER_02]: toward an object that has made itself an object of wrath because it will not be loved.
31:18.390 --> 31:21.397
[SPEAKER_02]: And so even then people like to pit wrath against love.
31:21.859 --> 31:27.773
[SPEAKER_02]: There's like, nope, it's the same thing, expressed in a different situation for someone who refuses to be loved.
31:27.853 --> 31:28.414
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
31:28.394 --> 31:31.762
[SPEAKER_02]: And so at the end of the day, we have to say, yes, God does have emotion.
31:31.822 --> 31:33.145
[SPEAKER_02]: He's a spectrum of emotion.
31:33.727 --> 31:44.192
[SPEAKER_02]: But as Phil said earlier, all of his emotion is driven and sustained and completed by the reality that God is ontologically in his essence.
31:44.172 --> 31:44.533
[SPEAKER_01]: love.
31:45.314 --> 31:45.595
[SPEAKER_04]: I love it.
31:46.096 --> 31:49.662
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, with that, we'll wrap up this episode of the EverPresent podcast.
31:50.123 --> 31:53.870
[SPEAKER_04]: In the next episode, we're going to talk about the pathway to connection.
31:53.890 --> 31:59.161
[SPEAKER_04]: How do you actually walk a path that results in deeper connection with God yourself and others?
31:59.481 --> 32:03.649
[SPEAKER_04]: We'll bring it down in a way that I think will be simple enough for you to understand how to walk it yourself.
32:04.152 --> 32:07.322
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the Reformed Podcast.
32:07.342 --> 32:16.890
[SPEAKER_00]: If you like what you heard, hit that subscribe button, share it with your friends, leave us a rating, and check out our other resources at theeatenproject.com.
32:17.833 --> 32:18.415
[SPEAKER_00]: Peace!
00:02.326 --> 00:18.197
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Reform and be in private podcasts and bracing the beauty and brokenness in your journey with God.
00:18.938 --> 00:19.980
[SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy this episode!
00:21.209 --> 00:25.674
[SPEAKER_04]: My name is Dukervard, I'm joined by CEO of the In-Project Nathan Wartner.
00:26.375 --> 00:27.477
[SPEAKER_01]: What's going on?
00:27.497 --> 00:27.637
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no.
00:27.677 --> 00:28.358
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, whoa.
00:28.898 --> 00:29.058
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey.
00:29.078 --> 00:31.501
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got a waterfall run, man.
00:31.521 --> 00:33.884
[SPEAKER_04]: I've still earned in with ten man ministries.
00:34.245 --> 00:38.550
[SPEAKER_04]: Really excited to have another episode around theology of emotion.
00:39.451 --> 00:46.980
[SPEAKER_04]: This podcast is really about examining the interior life of a human and talking about what are we made?
00:46.960 --> 00:47.440
[SPEAKER_04]: with.
00:47.801 --> 00:52.786
[SPEAKER_04]: What do we have existing in us that enables us to connect deeply with God, self and others?
00:53.586 --> 00:57.610
[SPEAKER_04]: In many ways, a motion has been underdeveloped in our theology.
00:58.691 --> 01:03.756
[SPEAKER_04]: Robert Clinton, who many of you might know from his, his seminal work, the making of a leader.
01:04.077 --> 01:06.599
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a long time professor of leadership at Fuller Seminary.
01:07.159 --> 01:11.984
[SPEAKER_04]: He reportedly at his retirement party was asked, hey, what should the church be working on next?
01:12.645 --> 01:15.988
[SPEAKER_04]: And Clinton said, we really need
01:15.968 --> 01:23.841
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a motion is, and I'm speaking for him now, but a motion is too much a feature of what it's like to be human and too little talked about.
01:24.001 --> 01:24.723
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, without a doubt.
01:24.743 --> 01:26.345
[SPEAKER_02]: Amongst the illusions and the church.
01:26.626 --> 01:31.254
[SPEAKER_04]: And so this podcast is really an attempt to start that conversation at least in the Eden Project.
01:31.594 --> 01:33.998
[SPEAKER_04]: Excited that you guys are here to join us today.
01:34.519 --> 01:37.324
[SPEAKER_04]: Today's topic is does God have a motion.
01:38.045 --> 01:40.469
[SPEAKER_04]: And so actually that's great theology to always do.
01:41.070 --> 01:42.212
[SPEAKER_02]: God have a motion.
01:42.192 --> 01:42.573
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
01:43.193 --> 01:43.794
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
01:43.814 --> 01:44.055
[SPEAKER_02]: We're done.
01:44.075 --> 01:45.537
[SPEAKER_04]: We're going to wrap it up.
01:45.557 --> 01:46.017
[SPEAKER_04]: Very good.
01:46.077 --> 01:48.601
[SPEAKER_04]: This is a micro podcast.
01:48.621 --> 01:49.282
[SPEAKER_04]: That's been awesome.
01:49.482 --> 01:50.043
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you guys.
01:51.124 --> 01:53.728
[SPEAKER_04]: But it is good theology to start with who is God.
01:53.748 --> 01:55.630
[SPEAKER_04]: And so let's kick it off that way.
01:56.271 --> 01:56.752
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
01:56.832 --> 02:00.237
[SPEAKER_04]: How have people often thought about God as it relates to emotion?
02:00.637 --> 02:01.198
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's start there.
02:01.699 --> 02:01.919
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
02:01.939 --> 02:07.727
[SPEAKER_02]: I think in my experience, most people fall into two different categories.
02:08.416 --> 02:20.268
[SPEAKER_02]: One is, there's obviously the Western influence, the post-enlightenment rationalism of just a really, in a lot of ways, a disembodied anthropology.
02:21.309 --> 02:27.595
[SPEAKER_02]: Of, hey, humans are primarily thinking creatures were primarily rational.
02:27.655 --> 02:33.141
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you guys talked about in the last episode, emotions are kind of like,
02:33.121 --> 02:38.849
[SPEAKER_02]: If they might be real, but they're not really reliable, and especially when they go against the data.
02:39.870 --> 02:53.188
[SPEAKER_02]: And so in a lot of ways, I think what you see is a lot of Greek influence, and then a lot of just post enlightenment influence to really think about God primarily in rationalistic terms.
02:53.168 --> 03:17.893
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is the, this is the God of the Philosophers, it's the, in some of the other language on some of our other channel podcasts that got in the brain and we talk about a God concept that people have, they're, they're, they're, they kind of view him as someone who's over there to be examined, who in a lot of ways can be, you know, a very still faced, very static type person,
03:17.873 --> 03:28.192
[SPEAKER_02]: where it's just like, hey, I just need the information from God that he's trying to give me so that I can be good as a Christian and believe the right things and then do the right things.
03:28.753 --> 03:37.570
[SPEAKER_02]: And so there's that, there's on one front, there's kind of this unemotional God whose primarily mind, right?
03:37.550 --> 03:54.158
[SPEAKER_02]: But then I also see, which is super interesting, this whole other side of people who experience God, especially as they read the Old Testament, primarily, although as a whole other thing, we'll go there right now.
03:54.138 --> 04:06.721
[SPEAKER_02]: But when they read the Old Testament, they see, and they can feel like, oh, but God, if he does have a motion, then he's like, he has kind of a hairline trigger temper.
04:06.781 --> 04:15.657
[SPEAKER_02]: He's very, it feels like emotionally arbitrary, like he just kind of blows up at people.
04:15.637 --> 04:29.612
[SPEAKER_02]: And so and it clearly we know like humans have emotions about that like if God is like that I have feelings about that But he's God So like I can't argue with him
04:30.892 --> 04:48.563
[SPEAKER_02]: which means like he's either this disembodied mind that I'm just have to try to dissect to get the right information or he's somebody who and this is and we know this as well just through research like the primary emotional experience that people have with God is that he's angry.
04:48.543 --> 05:00.883
[SPEAKER_02]: But his anger even though we don't a lot of times we want to allow ourselves to experience it or to really be honest about it or if we do experience it We don't we don't feel like we can actually argue with God because he's God.
05:01.324 --> 05:15.647
[SPEAKER_02]: So shut up get in line and just do the thing, right which and then I'll pass it over to you Phil Which is a horrible way of of giving a theological foundation to people to go
05:15.695 --> 05:23.326
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, God is love, and people are like, yeah, I know that, but it's definitely not my experience.
05:24.127 --> 05:36.163
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, I think that's, if I had to say where most people are actually starting from, does God have a motion, it's one or two or both of those things like simultaneously.
05:37.886 --> 05:38.587
[SPEAKER_01]: So helpful.
05:38.787 --> 05:44.655
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah,
05:44.635 --> 05:55.919
[SPEAKER_01]: Modern Western man put it that way is like okay, God either completely apathetic Which means feelings are bad because he wants nothing to do with them or are God's completely reactive Yeah, he's volatile.
05:55.939 --> 05:57.242
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and like man.
05:57.382 --> 06:04.517
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's the safest thing to do stick with the facts stick with data because men he's either God or
06:04.497 --> 06:04.958
[SPEAKER_01]: God.
06:05.799 --> 06:06.760
[SPEAKER_01]: We tend to look easy.
06:06.780 --> 06:08.903
[SPEAKER_01]: They're shrugging or about to strike.
06:09.844 --> 06:13.209
[SPEAKER_01]: So we make sure we stay right in between and we attribute to God.
06:13.369 --> 06:21.120
[SPEAKER_01]: Even movies like E.T., Nathan, you're describing, you know, Steven Spielberg created a limbic brain that could talk.
06:21.140 --> 06:21.400
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
06:22.061 --> 06:23.603
[SPEAKER_01]: And the children,
06:23.583 --> 06:35.673
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, someone named Jesus said, unless you change to become like one of these, can I enter the kingdom of God, point to children, the children loved E. T said, E. T phone home and millions of adults went to.
06:35.874 --> 06:36.916
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
06:37.037 --> 06:38.841
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we, we, we,
06:38.821 --> 06:42.186
[SPEAKER_01]: Children say, yes, they want to play with him, be with him, love on him.
06:42.246 --> 06:43.968
[SPEAKER_01]: The adults want to chop him into pieces.
06:43.988 --> 06:44.429
[SPEAKER_01]: I see them.
06:44.549 --> 06:49.917
[SPEAKER_01]: Hellenistic, Greek want to chop him into pieces and dissect them and study him and analyze him.
06:50.057 --> 06:51.659
[SPEAKER_01]: Go straight up to the brain.
06:51.719 --> 06:55.725
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's sometimes how we say, God, we're either going to chop God up into the theological pieces.
06:55.945 --> 06:56.226
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, good.
06:56.246 --> 07:04.898
[SPEAKER_01]: Going right books about him or we're going to cover hover in the corner or try to be a good boy, a good girl to make sure that reactivity doesn't happen.
07:04.998 --> 07:05.098
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
07:05.078 --> 07:13.550
[SPEAKER_04]: I love that film that you brought in the child lightness because it does seem like an honest anthropology sometimes is most clearly seen in children Yeah, because they haven't learned how to hide.
07:13.570 --> 07:22.223
[SPEAKER_01]: They're going to cover over and so they'll be Spielberg created the silicon brain.
07:22.323 --> 07:27.390
[SPEAKER_01]: We all wait
07:29.024 --> 07:32.433
[SPEAKER_04]: So those are some negative interpretations of God and motion.
07:32.513 --> 07:36.122
[SPEAKER_04]: What is the scripture actually revealed about God as it relates to a motion?
07:37.125 --> 07:40.654
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think, I mean, this is where...
07:41.377 --> 08:01.427
[SPEAKER_02]: I've got a lot of healthy anger around this one because I mean, you're not both have been formally trained theologically and so much of our training was kind of that left-brain rationalistic pedagogy, the hate just get the right information and you know, exaget God.
08:01.897 --> 08:12.659
[SPEAKER_02]: And yet, I think to before the scriptures are anything, they're, especially the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, is Jewish meditation literature.
08:13.561 --> 08:16.587
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's not something ultimately to be dissected.
08:17.289 --> 08:19.072
[SPEAKER_02]: It's something to enter into.
08:19.133 --> 08:21.778
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a whole other world, right?
08:21.758 --> 08:43.825
[SPEAKER_02]: which is why when you're, you know, when we're talking about, you know, some of the narrative of Genesis and Exodus, the wisdom literature, the poetry of the Psalms, even the prophetic material is, is God as a lover chasing an obstinate bride.
08:44.706 --> 08:51.394
[SPEAKER_02]: I just summarize the Psalms, yes, you know.
08:51.374 --> 08:53.139
[SPEAKER_02]: catching the tree, or missing the forest.
08:53.841 --> 09:03.065
[SPEAKER_02]: And so what I would say is, in order to really understand what the scriptures are, you really have to start with where they start.
09:03.968 --> 09:07.898
[SPEAKER_02]: And unfortunately, most people start in the Hebrew Bible in Genesis 3.
09:07.878 --> 09:08.198
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
09:08.479 --> 09:09.479
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, got it already created.
09:09.519 --> 09:10.420
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, we got it.
09:10.440 --> 09:17.527
[SPEAKER_02]: It got us a greater of awesome, which again, it's a very Western, you know, rationalistic type, ex-nehalo got created out of nothing.
09:18.888 --> 09:26.755
[SPEAKER_02]: And yet, what you see in Genesis 1 and 2 is the foundation of a creator who is creating out of love.
09:27.655 --> 09:32.780
[SPEAKER_02]: He already exists eternally within himself in a relationship of love, a trinitarian relationship of love.
09:33.601 --> 09:36.163
[SPEAKER_02]: And then that what you see is it's
09:36.717 --> 09:37.939
[SPEAKER_02]: into the material world.
09:37.959 --> 09:44.187
[SPEAKER_02]: He is zoning a material world to go along to be with my creation.
09:44.988 --> 09:50.416
[SPEAKER_02]: And you see God make this material world that he's making sacred space.
09:51.417 --> 09:59.068
[SPEAKER_02]: He is out of love is shaping and forming humans out of the dirt, out of the dust of the ground.
09:59.108 --> 10:01.611
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's animating them with his own breath.
10:02.418 --> 10:09.208
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, this is total familial language, it's parenting language, it's royalty language.
10:09.929 --> 10:10.971
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, all of that stuff.
10:11.011 --> 10:20.385
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, before we ever get to Genesis chapter 3, we have to start and acknowledge that what you have in Genesis 1 and 2 is the foundation of the entire narrative.
10:20.405 --> 10:25.573
[SPEAKER_02]: And the people in the narrative is a benevolent God who is love, who is who is
10:25.553 --> 10:29.358
[SPEAKER_02]: forming creatures in his own image.
10:30.719 --> 10:34.684
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, well, we've done podcasts on this and on another channel in the Edenverse.
10:35.245 --> 10:35.866
[SPEAKER_02]: Go check that out.
10:37.127 --> 10:50.624
[SPEAKER_02]: But just the depth of the intimacy, the involvement, the parental oversight and even empowerment to launch his creation out to go, you guys do this with me.
10:50.804 --> 10:51.145
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
10:51.445 --> 10:54.649
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, oh my gosh, let's see it.
10:54.629 --> 10:55.070
[SPEAKER_02]: with.
10:55.230 --> 10:56.291
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, exactly great.
10:56.331 --> 10:57.232
[SPEAKER_04]: I love it.
10:57.312 --> 11:01.097
[SPEAKER_04]: And I want to pivot to you, Phil, because you have a, you're great, theologian.
11:01.177 --> 11:12.132
[SPEAKER_04]: You have a strong trinitarian theology, but you've also had a lot of experience with functional anthropology, working with actual humans who don't know how to get in touch with what's actually going on in their chest.
11:12.292 --> 11:14.815
[SPEAKER_04]: And what does it mean to be an image bearer?
11:14.875 --> 11:20.282
[SPEAKER_04]: As you think about trinitarian relationality and your functional anthropology,
11:20.262 --> 11:27.883
[SPEAKER_04]: What do we learn about the nature of God in that, even looking at ourselves, the knowledge of God and the emotional life and the interior life, and that's it.
11:28.164 --> 11:32.296
[SPEAKER_01]: Just think about, guys, just think about just the topic.
11:33.058 --> 11:35.284
[SPEAKER_01]: Talk about your story.
11:35.264 --> 11:36.586
[SPEAKER_01]: talk about where you grew up.
11:36.606 --> 11:44.260
[SPEAKER_01]: Think about what all happened inside a human being just when you say that statement about how we're informed by parents, by coaches, by whomever.
11:45.161 --> 11:53.155
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you look across scripture, starting in Genesis 1 into not after starting there, this parental and Nathan's word will go.
11:53.135 --> 12:07.118
[SPEAKER_01]: This parental idea in Hosea, not only do you have this man chasing after an adulterous bride, which in in and of itself is a motif of pursuit and lovely heartache, grief, and wanting.
12:07.819 --> 12:15.852
[SPEAKER_01]: At the end of that book, there is this picture of God taking little ephrium by the hands and teaching him how to walk.
12:15.832 --> 12:18.156
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how can you be?
12:18.236 --> 12:18.717
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly right.
12:18.897 --> 12:27.292
[SPEAKER_01]: And so functionally speaking, like children have experiences when they were learning to walk literally and relationally.
12:27.312 --> 12:27.733
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
12:27.753 --> 12:30.598
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm learning to walk relationally and what does that mean dad?
12:30.618 --> 12:31.519
[SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean mom?
12:31.539 --> 12:32.641
[SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean coach?
12:32.681 --> 12:33.723
[SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean whomever?
12:33.783 --> 12:40.455
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the functional anthropologist, the living out of that is yes, we know we know over here.
12:40.435 --> 12:42.579
[SPEAKER_01]: about what the facts are about God.
12:42.619 --> 12:58.849
[SPEAKER_01]: He's Creator Exynilo, he just went into, but the living out of that, the reason I'm coaching off with, there is a with, motif, through Scripture, foundational in the love of God in which in our stories functionally speaking.
12:58.829 --> 13:17.034
[SPEAKER_01]: These early experiences and experiences as we go, where that with is broken, is where this emotional world comes in and like, when I'm not with this person who takes care of me, with this person who loves me when they're not with me and I'm not with them, if the rupture isn't repaired to use Alan just words.
13:17.175 --> 13:23.183
[SPEAKER_01]: The rupture is never repaired that I'm walking around blindly as a survivor.
13:23.163 --> 13:31.378
[SPEAKER_01]: And my the function of my human is then becomes how do I survive and we most often relegate to I'm not going to feel these things.
13:31.719 --> 13:34.363
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to find a way to figure out life.
13:34.644 --> 13:35.245
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
13:35.265 --> 13:37.088
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what has actually tried to control it.
13:37.108 --> 13:37.549
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
13:37.589 --> 13:37.970
[SPEAKER_02]: It's fear.
13:38.671 --> 13:38.812
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
13:38.832 --> 13:39.653
[SPEAKER_02]: The end of the day.
13:39.633 --> 13:46.267
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so I think, you know, in talking about, hey, does God have emotion, what does Scripture say about this?
13:46.928 --> 13:49.253
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, obviously we started off by saying yes, he does.
13:49.313 --> 13:56.308
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it is interesting to look at the full spectrum of the emotional life of God.
13:56.288 --> 14:02.842
[SPEAKER_02]: You see someone who is clearly has a motion and is showing up and being honest about it, right?
14:03.323 --> 14:15.951
[SPEAKER_02]: And it goes all the way from joy and gladness and excitement and things like that to anger and wrath and
14:16.775 --> 14:20.703
[SPEAKER_02]: And things that people look at and just be like, man, how do you square this?
14:21.043 --> 14:28.017
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, as an Apologist, one of the common questions that we always get is, you know, how does the loving God allow bad things to happen?
14:28.077 --> 14:30.422
[SPEAKER_02]: How can God be loving and also be angry?
14:30.642 --> 14:33.788
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and so some of those things just need to get teased out.
14:34.038 --> 14:51.860
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, I'm just wondering, you know, from you Phil, when you look at the emotional life of God and the full spectrum of that, like what would you want the audience to know in regard to, you know, hey, how does all that work with God as we understand as image bears, as we examine ourselves?
14:52.521 --> 14:54.443
[SPEAKER_02]: And then go, okay, what do we see?
14:54.423 --> 14:58.793
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we can only open the letter that's addressed us, as Lewis said, which is ourselves.
14:59.414 --> 15:13.647
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we open that up and we go, okay, what can this help inform us about the emotion that God does feel and what do we see in the scriptures of how he's navigating that?
15:13.627 --> 15:18.833
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll go back to the pun intended, Genesis of Eden Project.
15:19.814 --> 15:26.501
[SPEAKER_01]: Eden Project says, we say in these rooms, here in Dallas, here is the foundational truth about God.
15:26.762 --> 15:28.804
[SPEAKER_01]: He is love, right?
15:28.824 --> 15:29.565
[SPEAKER_01]: He is love.
15:29.645 --> 15:31.307
[SPEAKER_01]: And so all that comes from that.
15:31.367 --> 15:36.192
[SPEAKER_01]: And so because of our humanness and our story, and then what happened to Genesis 3 and beyond,
15:36.172 --> 15:38.976
[SPEAKER_01]: there are breaches all over the place around that.
15:39.076 --> 15:43.341
[SPEAKER_01]: But we go back to that foundational idea that God is love.
15:43.882 --> 15:50.691
[SPEAKER_01]: Then his wrath, his joy, his pursuit, his anger, his celebration, his singing over us.
15:50.972 --> 15:58.922
[SPEAKER_01]: All of those things in Scripture that come about, if we recognize only an emotional level, we recognize with awe, reverential fear.
15:58.902 --> 16:04.648
[SPEAKER_01]: that everything he does and says emanates from God, perfect love, yes.
16:04.908 --> 16:07.430
[SPEAKER_01]: Then the square up is in that statement.
16:08.031 --> 16:12.996
[SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, what emanates from him to us comes from a perfect love.
16:13.016 --> 16:20.323
[SPEAKER_01]: And that perfect love says, what I do and say is ultimately for my glory, which is the greatest good that could ever be.
16:21.004 --> 16:24.607
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's also for your good, whether you can experience that now or not.
16:24.647 --> 16:27.610
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where people that say, oh, you can have faith.
16:27.590 --> 16:29.232
[SPEAKER_01]: with fear is like, no, no, no, no.
16:29.732 --> 16:32.715
[SPEAKER_01]: As scary as that statement is, okay, this is for my good.
16:32.735 --> 16:33.716
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't see it.
16:34.276 --> 16:37.419
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really afraid you're not from my good, and I will trust you.
16:37.580 --> 16:38.340
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
16:38.500 --> 16:39.742
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
16:39.762 --> 16:45.207
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, we obviously know that theology doesn't get any clearer than we look at theology and body in the person of Jesus.
16:45.447 --> 16:48.270
[SPEAKER_04]: So second person of the Trinity takes some flesh, dwells among us.
16:48.930 --> 16:50.052
[SPEAKER_04]: What do you mean you've seen the Father?
16:50.612 --> 16:50.852
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.
16:50.872 --> 16:55.757
[SPEAKER_04]: What does it mean when we see Jesus put himself in such a vulnerable space,
16:55.737 --> 17:03.386
[SPEAKER_04]: to be rejected, to be lied about, to be killed, harmed, abandoned, a man of sorrow acquainted with grief.
17:03.806 --> 17:11.395
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, what do we learn about a God who says, yeah, I'll totally step into that and experience everything that it is to be human.
17:11.535 --> 17:11.955
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
17:11.975 --> 17:15.119
[SPEAKER_04]: Uh, as a human being, what are we learning about God when we see the incarnation?
17:15.139 --> 17:15.820
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.
17:15.880 --> 17:20.765
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, again, as an apologist when people bring up the problem of evil, there are two different kinds of problems of evil.
17:21.065 --> 17:25.170
[SPEAKER_02]: One is intellectual, where it's that, hey, how can a good God
17:25.741 --> 17:38.340
[SPEAKER_02]: The other one is emotional, which is primary, which is what people experience when their kid gets cancer, which is what they experience when something tragic happens in their lives, which is what the pain of life, right?
17:39.302 --> 17:44.610
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think you answer those differently, obviously.
17:44.590 --> 18:09.248
[SPEAKER_02]: But the typical way that I have helped people or tried to help people as they walk through the emotional problem of evil is just a point out the reality that God has, he's not separate from our suffering, he's not removed from it, he's not going, idiot, messed it all up, you know, I'm going over here until you'll figure it out like, like, for one minute, literally.
18:10.612 --> 18:11.713
[SPEAKER_02]: the world.
18:11.734 --> 18:15.298
[SPEAKER_02]: So, that's exactly not what we see.
18:15.519 --> 18:27.835
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, the first humans, right, they believe a false narrative about God, about how their ability to find life apart from God, and because of that distorted image of God, they begin to move away from Him, out of fear, right?
18:28.556 --> 18:31.540
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when that happens, there's a relational breach.
18:31.942 --> 18:33.365
[SPEAKER_02]: We're the ones who move away, right?
18:33.645 --> 18:34.066
[SPEAKER_02]: Not God.
18:34.627 --> 18:42.824
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when that happens, then the Lord, instead of going, like I said, get out of here, I'm done with you.
18:42.864 --> 18:52.363
[SPEAKER_02]: Instead, he immediately gives them the promise what theologians call the proto-you and Gellian, the first gospel, like, okay.
18:52.512 --> 18:58.142
[SPEAKER_02]: This has happened, and it's real, and we all have a motion about it, but I'm telling you, I'm going to fix it.
18:58.923 --> 19:07.097
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, the snake, this chaos creature, will strike the woman's son's heel, but he's going to crush his head.
19:07.137 --> 19:07.979
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
19:08.520 --> 19:13.288
[SPEAKER_02]: And so you immediately see Yahweh step in and go, I am going to be...
19:13.268 --> 19:18.199
[SPEAKER_02]: the beginning, the sustaining power of and the end of the solution to this problem.
19:19.302 --> 19:32.391
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what you see in the life of Jesus, the Christ event is a long culmination of Yahweh with His people in the mud with them, right, to where He's finally and fully going, okay, here.
19:32.371 --> 19:38.841
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and that's why the writer of Hebrews says, Hey, we don't have a, we don't have someone who can't identify with our weakness.
19:39.001 --> 19:42.426
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a sympathetic high priest who suffered just like us.
19:42.466 --> 19:45.430
[SPEAKER_02]: It was tempted like us in every way, but without sin.
19:45.490 --> 19:49.636
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when you're, when you're addressing like, man, life is so hard.
19:49.677 --> 19:54.404
[SPEAKER_02]: How could God allow us to happen, which, which are very good questions that need to be addressed.
19:54.544 --> 19:58.369
[SPEAKER_02]: But they always have to start if you're going to address it from a biblical standpoint.
19:58.930 --> 20:01.534
[SPEAKER_02]: It has to start with Jesus hanging on a tree.
20:02.898 --> 20:12.283
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, a real man nailed to a tree in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago, crying out, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
20:12.871 --> 20:16.117
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to start there because this is a reality of it.
20:16.758 --> 20:35.672
[SPEAKER_02]: And so at the end of the day, what you see is you see a Yahweh again, jealously with us going, I'm laboring with you, which is total relationship in order to bring about a new reality, which is what happens in the resurrection.
20:35.652 --> 20:44.366
[SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, we've been talking about Christ as God in the flesh and the clearest theology we ever get, particularly around an anthropology and at theology.
20:45.207 --> 20:54.102
[SPEAKER_04]: Phil, what does it mean that, say, Jesus in John 17 starts talking from a place of desire and emotion about what he wants with us?
20:54.542 --> 20:59.230
[SPEAKER_04]: And he says, Father, I want them to be with me, to use your word earlier with.
20:59.210 --> 21:00.052
[SPEAKER_04]: where I am.
21:00.773 --> 21:04.760
[SPEAKER_04]: What do we learn about God when we realize he wants something with us that we want with him.
21:05.582 --> 21:10.511
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, I think that's so amazing to even have a conversation about just that one thing.
21:11.593 --> 21:14.979
[SPEAKER_01]: Think about listening to that prayer thinking on the heels.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This whole thing started the upper room four chapters earlier.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right, the last supper and the washing the disciples' feet and Judas, and all the, and then, and then Jesus spends the better part of three chapters, 14, 15, and 16 talking about, I'm going to be with you in ways you literally really can't even imagine.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's called the Holy Spirit.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He'll be the perfect parent, but I'll walk them alongside you, guide you into truth, convict you of sin, like, guys, this is so good, how much I want to be with you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, and like actually live in you, yeah, like I'm not going to be, I'm talking to Matthew and Simon over here Peter, you're out of luck, but not when this happens because it's it's everyone all the time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting because I think a lot of times we're curious, like we would ask the disciples like hey, so like to walk with Jesus.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then I think probably if we're there, they on some level would be like, I wonder what it's going to be like when he's walking.
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[SPEAKER_02]: In me, when he's in us, like what the heck?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, keep going.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is a really right point.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so Jesus, he's just very parental language for the better part of three chapters.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm, I'm going to be with you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be in you and, and dwell in you and it, God, it's a better deal.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: With you.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then he ends by saying, in this world is going to be trouble.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Not maybe, not like, if you're really nice boys, nothing will happen to be fine.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't say that at all.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I've overcome the world and as part of the evidence of that, nothing has changed in the mind of God.
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[SPEAKER_01]: As evidence of that, I'm going to be in you when that comes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then he praised the prayer we're talking about John 17.
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[SPEAKER_01]: to be with you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so that even that prayer that at least John captured, you know, award for words, as best we can tell, that Jesus is praying and think about how often there's this great quote.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's in Chip's book, Voice of the Heart, I've heard in other other places, publications that says children are not afraid of the dark.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Children are afraid of the dark alone.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's right and Jesus is saying like you're going to be in the dark and you're never going to be alone I'm going to be with you And just think about those words like someone says to me, hey, I'm Nathan.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in your corner.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm with you I'm on your side We have the God of the universe way back.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Genesis 1 and we got that God
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[SPEAKER_01]: indwelling in us.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so that with becomes so, so rich.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And Jesus is praying and saying, I want them to be with me where we are.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so you think about just the ramifications in terms of attachment and connection and the functional anthropology that comes, just comes out of that one
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[SPEAKER_01]: What would I do if I knew he is with me?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What would I say differently?
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[SPEAKER_01]: How would I act differently?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What would I truly care about?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Duke, I've heard you talk about and how the priest seems like a million Germans too.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That idea of looking at myself doing this and that what if I would just free of that?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Which is I can't be because he's with me, relationally.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I love it.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I love that it's it's relational and not propositional.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So God is not a series of propositions.
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[SPEAKER_04]: He's an actual person.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Community of persons try you and who wants to be with me as express that desire to his own father in Christ and now made it possible by the spirit on going.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So man that's that's good news.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Let's let me wrap this episode up Nathan because we do know about the Baylor longitudinal study on how people emotionally image God.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And the most dominant emotion that people attribute to God is anger or wrath.
24:47.796 --> 24:53.185
[SPEAKER_04]: How do we square the wrath of God with people who are saying, hey, there are some passages that really lead me to believe he's kind of pissed.
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[SPEAKER_04]: What do we do with that?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, two things.
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[SPEAKER_02]: One, we have to understand, again, what the scriptures are, that just because something is in the Bible doesn't mean, I mean, sometimes you hear people say this, like, well, it's in the Bible.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of stuff in the Bible that's horrible, like, it's reporting on thing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's reporting on sin and a fallen world, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's not good.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so to understand that God is dealing with humanity, and it's really messy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, some of the audience knows just from, you know, previous stories, and some, some of y'all listen to the equipping podcast that I was that I'm a veteran, and I'm a army veteran.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And two deployments in Afghanistan, and part of that part of those deployments is just combat.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you're just in an active fight kinetic.
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[SPEAKER_02]: we're shooting at the enemy shooting at us.
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[SPEAKER_02]: People are blowing up and getting shot and all that stuff.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so you look at that and you're like, that's really messy, like that's not good.
25:53.672 --> 25:56.476
[SPEAKER_02]: You look at it and you go, yep, that's not the way it's supposed to be.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, as somebody who's been there done that, lived it, I'm telling you, it's not the way it's supposed to be.
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[SPEAKER_02]: However, whenever evil exists in the world, any force for good that steps into that mess is stepping into a really messy situation to work for good.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes working for good is eliminating threats, like doing away with a to use of mix and metaphors, but to use a surgical or a medical deal like there's a cancer there, and that cancer needs to get cut out.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And when you're cutting on the patient, if the patient doesn't have any understanding of the broader,
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[SPEAKER_02]: Reality what's going on then all they know is you're cutting on me in this hurts like stop it How can you be good?
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I'm saying and and in reality what the Lord is doing is he is he's he's appropriately meeting Threats to the to the ultimate good of his people
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[SPEAKER_02]: And he's eliminating those threats at some point.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And some points, he's removing the threat and putting it somewhere else for the threat zone.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Good, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, when you look at Genesis 15, where the Lord's like, hey, I'm giving these people 400 years to repent, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, so y'all are going to go off into Egypt, and I'm going to keep you there because I'm long suffering with these people over here, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So what he says in Genesis 15,
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so the Lord is constantly taking a very complicated, sinful, broken world, and he is entering into it and laboring with it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it's just messy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes it looks like the Lord going, hey guys, if I was to allow the to take an Old Testament example,
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[SPEAKER_02]: the rebellion with the sons of Korra.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If I was to allow that to just like go unchecked and like not deal with that at all, like you're gonna completely misunderstand who I am, how I operate, and that's a fast track to pay the paganism that they had been in the whole time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so he's training his people,
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[SPEAKER_02]: right which involves the earth opening up and swallowing people it it involves a plague's breaking out and involves like things like this because it's it's his loving way of going hey um i am ultimately working for your your ultimate good
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[SPEAKER_02]: And you may not understand that right now, just like a patient may not understand the incision point to remove a tumor, but I'm just telling you, that's what's going on.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And you see that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Now if you pluck that out, those instances out of context, not just contextually within the book, they're in, but within the covenant they're in, but within the entire biblical meta narrative, if you pluck them out and just look at them, then yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, God's totally volatile.
28:59.933 --> 29:03.499
[SPEAKER_02]: He's reactionary, he's, you know, he's just pissed.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And you're like, yeah, I know.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I have to appease him, or that's gonna happen to me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it's the way we started the podcast, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why I have so much like healthy anger to go, and no, no, no, no, we have to understand the entire biblical meta-narrative because when you see those things within the broad story of what God is doing in the world of the German word as a cool words, the highest gishikata.
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[SPEAKER_02]: favorite.
29:28.624 --> 29:31.849
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so much money for seminary after that and just in talks period.
29:31.869 --> 29:34.994
[SPEAKER_01]: I just say I'll just shit because it's just after, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It means like story.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But it's the the house Kishikta is the is is this the history of salvation of God with his people over generations in millennia, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: When you look at that then then what becomes obviously clear is oh
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[SPEAKER_04]: really does love he really loves us he created us to be followed into the trinitarian reality and when that got severed or ruptured he was totally willing to at great cost himself restore it and to pray prayers like I want them to be with me where right now we have to acknowledge that not everybody is going to be with him where he is
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the real tragedy, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: It truly, I mean, just even now just saying it, my chest, I'm checking in, like my chest gets heavy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, man, it's a, the wrath of God is real.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And the wrath of God is against injustice and unrighteousness.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because if God doesn't finally and fully intervene, then he can no longer be good.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because it's like, hey, somebody fix the brokenness and the wrath of God really is it's an extension of his love
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because if his love is finally and fully pursuing the highest good of the beloved as far as it could be obtained, well what is what does the love of God look like for somebody who will not be loved?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Who will not know matter what and will not stop oppressing what that's right like what does it look like then well then it looks like wrath yes right so really the wrath of God is the love of God
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[SPEAKER_02]: toward an object that has made itself an object of wrath because it will not be loved.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so even then people like to pit wrath against love.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There's like, nope, it's the same thing, expressed in a different situation for someone who refuses to be loved.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so at the end of the day, we have to say, yes, God does have emotion.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He's a spectrum of emotion.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But as Phil said earlier, all of his emotion is driven and sustained and completed by the reality that God is ontologically in his essence.
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[SPEAKER_01]: love.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I love it.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, with that, we'll wrap up this episode of the EverPresent podcast.
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[SPEAKER_04]: In the next episode, we're going to talk about the pathway to connection.
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[SPEAKER_04]: How do you actually walk a path that results in deeper connection with God yourself and others?
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[SPEAKER_04]: We'll bring it down in a way that I think will be simple enough for you to understand how to walk it yourself.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the Reformed Podcast.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you like what you heard, hit that subscribe button, share it with your friends, leave us a rating, and check out our other resources at theeatenproject.com.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Peace!
