Decoding Culture: The Intersection of Art and Science (August 16, 2023)

[00:00:00] Introductions


Derek Lundsten: So welcome To Rebels With A Heart. Today's topic, uh, the overall theme is about the new rules of leadership. Today we'll be talking about decoding culture, the intersection of science and art. And I think the leaders we have here, the experts we have here, [00:01:00] have a very strong voice and opinion on these topics, and I'm, I'm looking forward to sharing their personal journeys and experiences of leadership and study.
So with that, welcome to Stacey, Stacey, to be so kind is to introduce a little bit about yourself, who you are, and how you've joined us today. 
Stacey Porter: Oh yeah, happy to do that. Derek and glad to be here with you and this community, especially Geoff and Glen, uh, as well. Um, talking about one of my favorite topics, which is culture.
Um, but hi everyone. My name is Stacey Porter. I am the Chief People Officer at Outset Medical. And, uh, feels much like a calling, less like a job. And I think that I'm actually on the bottom of the org chart and I report to everybody. Uh, and that's, I, I wouldn't have it any other way. Um, but when I think about kind of my, my kind of journey here, um, I started an unusual place.
I actually started in medical device sales, uh, and then went into, um, I got into, uh, pharmaceuticals and then some other devices. Kind of dabbled in tech for a bit, but [00:02:00] my biggest kind of just, um, Maybe it's obsession is how do you create organizations that really unleash people? They become this like very potent version of themselves.
So, um, that for me is, is kind of the calling. Uh, and that's what, uh, been my life's work and I'm very passionate around high-performing teams and unleashed individuals and, um, cultures that really, um, can be durable and sustainable, uh, over a company's lifecycle. 
Derek Lundsten: Amazing. Well, we're happy you're here.
Thanks Stacey. And we'll come over to you, Dr. Glen. 
Glen Kreiner: Great. Thank you. Thanks everyone for joining us. I'm really happy to be here. My name is Glen Kreiner. I currently am the department chair of management at the David Eckels School of Business at the University of Utah. Uh, but my connection here, why I'm here, is a study things like stigma, mental health, disability, identity, work, family, and have taught topics like culture in organizations for many years.
Um, one of the things that I'm [00:03:00] really passionate about right now is de-stigmatizing conversations around mental health and substance use disorder. And I'm on the leadership team for a nationwide campaign, uh, to stop the stigma against mental health and substance use disorder and, uh, that is being run.
Partially through the Huntsman Mental Health Institute. They're what we call the backbone organization of this initiative. They're here at the University of Utah and we have hundreds of partner organizations working with us, uh, to help de-stigmatize these issues. So that's something I'm particularly passionate about as I know my co-panelists are as well.
So thank you so much, Derek, for having me here today. That's our 
Derek Lundsten: honor and pleasure. Thank you, Glen. And coming to you, Geoff. 
Geoff McDonald: Yeah. Thank you Derek. And, uh, great to be on with Stacey and Glen. Um, yeah, my background is funny. Yeah, it's funny how we, where we all start. Uh, Stacey, I, um, I actually started my career as a teacher many, many years ago, a maths and biology teacher.
Uh, and then I, [00:04:00] after three years, I left. Teaching and I, I joined Unilever and I had a 25 year career, uh, working for Unilever. All in human resources all around the world. The last five years were probably the most enthralling in that we as an organization rediscovered our purpose as a business and that sense of purpose.
Completely transformed, uh, the organization. Uh, I decided to leave Unilever, uh, about 10 years ago, uh, to go out into the world and live out my own sense of purpose and see what that would happen, see what would happen. And, um, that is to try and create workplaces all over the world where every single person feels that they genuinely have the choice to just put their hand up and to ask for some help.
If they're struggling with one form of mental ill health driven by my own lived experience of depression back in 2008 when I got very, very ill and the only thing that saved my life was my ability to talk about my illness and not be burdened by the stigma, a sense of love and a sense of [00:05:00] hope with the two most powerful ingredients in my recovery.
I lost a friend to suicide. Um, four years after my own crucible moment in life, and he couldn't talk. He was burdened by stigma, and that was the catalyst. I thought that was an injustice. And, uh, and I've now devoted my life to trying to, to address the stigma of mental ill health in workplaces. But a little bit of what Stacey was saying, um, I'm, I'm actually now really, really interested in how do we create organizations where, Every single organization, their life is enhanced by going to work, enhanced by going to work.
They feel energized. Uh, they can only be energized if they are healthy. And so why don't we think about the health and wellbeing of our people as a strategic imperative and create cultures where we truly enhance the lives of every single person who works there. 
Derek Lundsten: Beautifully said Geoff, and thank you for just sharing the highlight of [00:06:00] some of your story, the, the ups and the downs of that in that moment, and that just openness and vulnerability in, in doing so, in being here with us today and for all of you for being here today.
So again, Derek Lundsten, I'm the president and chief cultural officer of LifeGuides. As well as the moderator and have the privilege of moderating Res of the Heart. Uh, LifeGuides is a platform that connects people who have been through a life experience event or a challenge to provide guidance, to provide a space of empathy, to provide a space of support in whatever way helps people, employees, and their families navigate their life and to do it more effectively, more fully, more purposefully, and more healthily.
And that's really what we are doing. For billions of people around the world in the coming decades. Um, so really grateful that you're here. All the topics that you've each weaved in are, are relevant to today. We're gonna explore them and, and, and decode them, and then weave them back together in a really fun tapestry.
[00:06:47] What does culture mean to you?
Derek Lundsten: Um, but I'll start with a really. I'll call almost basic question, and you've call, you kind of all have alluded to it, but because each of you has such a unique and different perspective on this question, I think it'll be helpful for the audience that will listen to this both [00:07:00] today and in the future.
What is, what is culture for you? Because that's a, that, that's a word, that's a very, there's a lot of layers to that. There's a lot of ways that people define it. It's, it's not a one size fits all word. So, for you personally in your life and your leadership, how are you defining culture? How do you show up as an ambassador and a creator of culture?
And how are you teaching culture to those people that you serve and lead?
 And any of you can take that question. So there's no rules here. 
Glen Kreiner: I I, I think of it as, as, uh, as shared values, shared beliefs. Uh, shared attitudes about what's right and wrong to do in a group of people. Um, it's, it's, it's manifest in physical artifacts, things that we can see here and touch, like the language that we use, um, the things that we see in a workplace.
The, the texts that are produced, public relation texts, um, speeches are [00:08:00] given, so we can see culture sometimes, but a lot of culture is beneath the surface, and it's about what's in the hearts and minds of people in that group about how they should behave and how they shouldn't.
Stacey Porter: Derek I, I so agree with, uh, Dr. Glen here. I, I, I love that you talked about language too, because I think that for me, the acquisition of language in a company, I. Create kind of these behavioral curves, if you will, and those behavioral curves become kind of ritualized. And then those rituals are the way we do things around here.
And that becomes culture, right? It is. You know, the way that you talk, the way that that manifests into action, the way that all a sudden you see people doing things the same way and kind of with the same intent. And then it's very easy to say, Hey, you know what? Outset is a place where. Information flows robustly.
Um, or, you know, this is a place where people have deep expertise, but they still like to work in teams, you know, and so you, you do have these kind of forms of, [00:09:00] of ritual that become very kind of unique. And you walk in the door and people are like, um, you know, I can feel something here. There's something very tangible here.
And I think culture is a lot of times intangible. So when it feels tangible, you're doing something right. 
Derek Lundsten: All.
Geoff McDonald: Look, I, I would agree with all that's been said. Um, I mean, for me, culture is an outcome.
 I think of, um, drivers in an organization that, that, that drive. How people behave, how they talk, what they, the artifacts, the way things get done. So for me, it's very much an outcome. It can be a little bit like a piece of slippery soap. It's sometimes quite hard to grab onto, onto. Um, but for me, the drivers of culture are, are, are leadership behavior.
Not only leadership behavior, I think policies, processes, [00:10:00] and systems in an organization also drive culture. Mm-hmm. Uh, people behave in certain ways in organizations because of a policy that might exist in that organization. I think too often we focus only on leadership behavior and we don't also address some of the infrastructure of an organization, which influences the culture, the behaviors, the way people do things.
So for me, it's very much an outcome of leadership behavior and the infrastructure of an organization. 
Derek Lundsten: Okay. Thank you for that. 
[00:10:38] Micro-cultures within an organization
Derek Lundsten: So recognizing that each organization, I'll put it it for a second. Organizations each have their own cultures. Teams have their own cultures, you know, family units have their own cultures.
When you think about that kind of micro view of culture, how does that then, Play into this view, this vision that you, each of all kind of shared of an environment where employees can be unleashed, where their [00:11:00] talents are seen, where they can be their greatest version of themselves, where there's both the balance of, of openness and trust with performance and growth and all those different pieces.
How does that, how does that work from your, each of your kind of points of view on, on that? How are you creating that?
Glen Kreiner: me a lot of it is recognizing those things that you're talking about, Derek, we could think of them as subcultures. Yeah. Part of the organization could have its own subculture, but also. Each employee is bringing in multiple subcultures, their family, their family culture, their national culture, ethnic culture. So we can think about an organization as actually comprising lots of subcultures in addition to an overarching culture.
So then the question becomes how do we get those subcultures to a talk about similarities and differences. And then be manage those similarities and differences. And I actually think for a lot of organizations, one of the biggest problems is not recognizing the existence of subcultures. [00:12:00] Or thinking that subcultures are bad, right?
That we all have to be on the same page about everything, and that really just stifles the creativity. It stifles the psychological safety. So it's kind of like this tension between, well, yes, we wanna be on the same page around certain core values. That's the strong part of an organizational culture we want, but we also wanna celebrate the subcultures throughout the organization and what they can be bringing.
Yeah. To each other and to the overall organization. So it's, it's balancing a tension between that overarching United Vision and other subcultures. 
Derek Lundsten: Well, I would say diversity is, that is basically what you're describing. That's truly diversity subcultures and the embracing of that aligned around common mission, common values is the epitome of.
Belonging and true inclusion. And true access and true. So anyway, I wanted to just acknowledge that for a moment. Thanks, Glen. Um, I would go, I, 
Geoff McDonald: I go Derek, Derek. I'd go one step further. I think it goes beyond [00:13:00] just mission and values. Thank you. Thank you. And, and I think, I think, and I think very few organizations have truly answered this question, why do they do what they do?
Beyond wanting to grow and be profitable. And so for me, the highest form of an alignment and creating a culture must be aligned to the answer to that question. Why do we do what we do? Which is a sense of purpose. Yes. A sense of meaning. So vision for me is, is, is kind. What might this look like in the next 10 years?
You know, what's the top of the mountain look like? Mission might be, how are we gonna kind of get there? What are we gonna do? How are we gonna go about achieving that vision? But why are we doing it? Um, and that sense of purpose, that greater sense of meaning. I. I think is a critical, critical, I think that should be the starting point in helping to, [00:14:00] uh, either define or redefine the culture of an organization.
I.
Stacey Porter: I really like what these two have said, especially, um, just kind of talking about, you know, those guiding points around kind of mission and, and, and values. But then also really like, why do we exist? Why does this team exist? And you know, what, to just kind of think about it from, from our lens, there are also things that we wanna manifest, right?
Like if we say we wanna have decentralized decision making. Then you have to have robust information flow. If you say you wanna be a hybrid work environment, you have to have really good managers who can translate strategy into work. So, so you almost have to work backwards a lot of times. And I think that that's the work that I find fascinating, right?
Like if you're gonna move a culture like one foot forward, And you're gonna manifest a new behavior, then what do you have to do to get there? Um, and I think for us, that's been, [00:15:00] that's been really, um, by design, not default, like we are designing our culture all the time. And I'll give you an example. Um, one of the things that I love about outset.
Is we just don't stand on ceremony. We're raw, we're scrappy. Our town halls are like the Blair Witch project. I mean, they are like not professional at all. They're like shaky camera angles and like somebody's like, Hey, are you gonna share slides or I'm gonna share slides. Like, it is not polished. Yeah. But that's, we don't wanna be polished.
We're not trying to kind of have this, these totems of success we're trying to like. Work forward and work fast and work thoughtfully, but, but we're not, we're not trying to get, like, engaged in some of these trappings. Um, and frankly, we don't have time. Yeah. And so, so, so there, there are ways that that culture manifests that kind of just like edgy, you know, bold, creative go forward, bias for action, not bias for kind of like, you know, paralysis, analysis paralysis, and you see it [00:16:00] in different rituals.
As, as you know, Dr. Glen said. 
Derek Lundsten: Love that. So we are all in complete alignment on this. 
[00:16:07] Healthy and unhealthy cultures
Derek Lundsten: So I'm gonna ask a, a, a counter question to this. 'cause I, you hear, we read a lot right now about, you know, the shift around healthy cultures and unhealthy cultures. Right? I would love to understand your view on this because arguably, I.
A culture is a culture. There's, I mean, it's just, it's whatever the agreements that are being made between various constituencies are right. If you're part, if you're agreeing to be part of that, you're, you're in some ways accepting or creating that, uh, or, or not, right? That's the, that's the choice we all have as people and as members of teams.
So as we talk about this idea of culture and we think about, Again, healthy versus unhealthy cultures or healthy, unhealthy behaviors. And we're going through a, a significant shift in how we work and how we interact and how we communicate and frankly, what we value as businesses or as a business community, you could make the case.
And when you look at, you know, the why we exist beyond just making money, how is that shifting your [00:17:00] personal view around what makes a healthy versus healthy culture? What is your view on this topic broadly? Uh, there's a few questions there, but I'd. Have you, have you riff on that a bit, uh, different lens than 
Stacey Porter: this?
 Well, and maybe I'll just just share, um, an example, and it's a little bit controversial, but we have a very unique thought around diversity. Um, like we, and, and I think that that, um, Glen and Geoff can appreciate this. We're small, we're fledgling. We're like taking these hills like we are in our industry.
Really a kind of a disruptive technology. So our whole thought around diversity is common ground with our people, not divided voices. So we don't have any E R G groups because E R G groups have oftentimes cross purposes and very unique needs. And for us, we're too small for that. We're too fledgling for that.
We, we've got, we've really have gotta have focused [00:18:00] attention. So, so there are things I think that sometimes companies do to create this sense of belonging and sometimes can, can actually be divided or maybe take away energy from a common ground purpose. And that, that's really important for us. So I think we think about, You know, we, we, diversity just is, it is our expectation.
Inclusion is, is our choice in kind of how we design ourselves. But, um, there are things that we do differently that may feel faddish, in a way be, but they just, they don't, they don't serve our culture. Mm-hmm. And I think with cultures, uh, this is. As statism, um, is that you can't be nostalgic about them.
Like if the business needs to change, that culture needs to change. And I can tell you like early on, you know, you've got everybody in a room, everybody knows everybody's name. If there's a problem, you swarm it with like 20 people, you know? But, but if that doesn't work anymore and the business landscape is changing and you are hiring specialists, [00:19:00] not generalists, Then you have to not be nostalgic about the way it was.
You have to think about the way it needs to be. Yeah. And um, I think, I think sometimes we don't do that calculus. 
Glen Kreiner: Mm. I think it, I love that. I love that. And it's a great question, Derek, because I think what, what people need to do is examine the different components of their culture, right? So we know that it's not monolithic.
There's lots of different components to a culture and there's ways to diagnose it. You could do something as formal as what's called a culture audit. So if you think about like fiscal audits, you do a culture audit where you actually have people. You can do focus groups, surveys, et cetera, and say, who are we?
What are our values? What do we do? What, what, what's important to us? And you can create for the organization several characteristics around what that culture is. Okay? So then once you've done that, go through and say what's functional and what's dysfunctional? And really literally separate out the functional parts of your culture and the dysfunctional parts of your culture.
Okay? And [00:20:00] then another way to do that is functional for home. And dysfunctional for home, okay? Mm-hmm. And you ask that in two different ways. What's functional? Overall for our whole organization, what's functional for certain subgroups and subcultures in our organization? What's dysfunctional for the whole organization?
Nobody needs it. And what's dysfunctional for certain parts of our organization and that's gonna help people get, get into the weeds to know what's stuff to dump. And I love that. Don't be sentimental about, right. What do we dump? What do we keep? Because you gotta keep in mind that certain things could be functional, really good for one part of the organization.
Yeah. But really unhealthy and unhelpful for another part of the organization. We've gotta face that reality as we do that kind of culture assessment. 
Derek Lundsten: Thank you, Glen, for giving the actionable advice there. Geoff, I'd love to get your thought on this, especially going through a 25 year journey of culture steering building.
Yeah. 
Geoff McDonald: You [00:21:00] know, I. And I know I'm gonna sound like a bit of a stuck record, but you know, we talk, you talk about healthy and unhealthy cultures. There's a wonderful statesman, British statesman called Winston Churchill. Not that I'm British, I'm a South African. Okay. I'm from South Africa. So you know, it's not that I'm hugely nostalgic about Winston Churchill, but he had a lovely saying and he said, we earn a living by getting.
We earn a life by giving. So we earn a living by getting stuff, but we earn a life by giving.
 And I think that sense of giving can only, can only be felt in an organization. There's a greater sense of purpose beyond growth and profitability. And [00:22:00] so I think that unhealthy cultures
 is where people are behaving and are part of that organization 'cause they just want to get, versus organizations that have a clear sense of purpose, which is about wanting to give back. To this very, very anxious world that we all live in today, that we all live in today, that's going in the wrong direction.
And business is such a powerful and can be such a powerful force for good. And I honestly believe that you can do well by doing good in the world. Yeah. But if your reason, for instance, is just to grow and be profitable, I think that drives very unhealthy behaviors and cultures within organizations which become dysfunctional.
Look at Enron. I mean, they have all these wonderful [00:23:00] values, but are they in pursuit of wanting to just get, or are they in pursuit of wanting to give and make the world a better place? 
Glen Kreiner: I love that the, the words that come to mind when you're explaining that Geoff are transactional versus transformational.
Right? And you, I think we could just picture each of these types of cultures, the ones where people are just like, well, what am I getting out of this? Right? We show up, we do our thing, we make the money, we move on, and the whole vibe of the place is very transactional, right? That is so different than a transformational type of culture where there's a sense of purpose, there's a sense of improving people's lives or society, or a pocket of society that needs help.
Um, and that difference between transactional and transformational makes a huge difference and how people show up to work. They're way more willing to go above and beyond their job description in a transformational place. I'll give you a quick [00:24:00] vignette. This is funny. This is funny that you were talking about this theme, Geoff.
'cause just yesterday, uh, we were taking our, our youngest child was checking in, going into the dorms. Okay? So he is going off to college, and as we were walking out, there's this big sign and it says something like, you know, we are here for your transformational educational experience. I pointed to the sign to my son and I said, all right, you better transform.
Okay. I was like, the, the, the bar has been raised by the dorm. That's this experiential dorm that you're, that you're living in. And I think that workplaces need to be like that too. Creating and crafting that culture and reinforcing about transformation. That can, that can be for the leaders, that can be for the managers, the employees, and the customers.
That that mindset of change rather than just well, transaction, I get my check. We deliver the services and goods. 
Stacey Porter: Well, and, and Glen and Geoff, I have to tell you, I am like, we're birds of a feather. Derek picked us for a reason. Um, [00:25:00] because, you know, I think we all have a, a, a similar sentiment here. And the thing is, and you two know this, so does Derek and, and our audience employees have a lot more power these days.
Yes. They have a lot more information sources. They can say their company sucks, they can walk out the door in a mass exodus. So before Geoff, where cultures could be really toxic and they could be really soul sucking and they could not have a sense of purpose, you didn't have the opportunity to move on from that.
We kind of had to just like, Stay and exist, even if it was just kind of this like terrible experience. Not these days. People can move and have a job offer in two weeks. You can say on Glassdoor that your company plays favorites or they don't know how to prioritize, or there's wasted energy, or the senior leaders don't know what they're doing.
I mean, there is a lot of it. There's a different. Psychological contract with what people want outta work. Guess what? They don't wanna have a bad manager. They want a [00:26:00] transformational manager. Glen, to your great point, they want somebody who's gonna invest in their success and give straight feedback and make sure that work is challenging.
So our expectations of companies these days have been brought up significantly, and I think that's positive. 
Derek Lundsten: Well said. There's so much with that statement as well, which we're back.
[00:26:20] Mental health in the workplace
Derek Lundsten: But I want to, on this same topic of health, for a moment, since we do have such a deep leverage network of mental health topics. I wanna just talk about that relationship between healthy cultures and what does that mean around mental health in the workplace right now. I know both you, Geoff, and the work that you've done over the last, you know, almost 10 years, and you, Glen, with your research, have quite a view around the role of healthy cultures, around healthy cultures, mental health.
And to your comment, Stacey, where, where is the responsibility lie? For giving people the support that they need. And is that, is that the responsibility employer, you know, back to expectations, where does that, where's the agreement here beyond how we optimize for people's wellbeing and [00:27:00] their mental health as well as the health of an organization and the outcomes, purposeful outcomes we wanna achieve beyond just the business outcomes?
'cause it's all interrelated as we know. So I would like to just invite you to share your thoughts on, on that topic or your research for that matter on that topic.
Geoff McDonald: Can I, can I kick off on this one? 
 So, so, so Derek. I often say to organizations around the world, we spend billions of dollars every single year, everywhere in the world.
Health and safety in workplaces, guess what all of that money goes to safety. It goes to keeping people physically safe at work, right? Organizations take huge accountability to keep people physically safe at work. Well, why don't they also want to keep people mentally and emotionally safe [00:28:00] at work?
 we organizations cause huge amounts of stress and burden on people today. And workplaces need to be more accountable. They should take accountability. I. To creating cultures where people can thrive. They should take accountability to making sure the support resources are in place, that people can enhance their lives.
They should take accountability when somebody falls over and is really ill mentally or emotionally, and give them the support to get better and bring them back into the workplace where they'll probably be a better human being as a result of it. Yes, they do it. We do it for. Why don't we do it for people's broader wellbeing and feel accountable for that.
Anyway, let me get off my soapbox. 
Derek Lundsten: I, I love the passion. I mean, we're, we're cut from the same cloth. I'm waiting in because you are, you're saying everything we need to say, Geoff, so thank you. Uh, but yes, absolutely agree with that. Other panelists thoughts on this, on this [00:29:00] perspective, as well as the questions?
Yeah, I would, 
Glen Kreiner: I would definitely agree with what Geoff said, and I think it's a really important question because if you think about the percentage of workers across the globe who are either currently experiencing a mental health issue or substance use disorder, or who have or who are likely to in the future, It's of the workforce just off the, out of the starting gate.
But then if you say, okay, well let's workers someone in their very close social network. Who're experiencing a mental health issue, now we're exponentially increasing the number of people directly affected by this issue. And for so long in society, it's been this sort of sequestered topic, almost like cancer was 30 or 40 years ago, that people didn't wanna talk about it or they talk, talk about it in hush tones.
Yeah. So we need to bring it out of the shadow and into the light in ways that are helpful and that don't [00:30:00] reinforce stigmas. Around mental health. So things that leaders can do would be to, to share information about their own experiences in this space, right? So it, you know, leaders are, are shaping the way that people think about what's right to do and what's wrong to do.
So if no one at the top talks about mental health or their own journeys, The message that's received by managers and employees is, well, that's not something we talk about here. Right? So I personally have experienced anxiety pretty much my whole life to various degrees. I've had experience with seasonal affective disorder my whole adult life.
Recently diagnosed recently in my fifties with A D H D. Whoa. So there's a whole bunch of different, like my own stories that I share in the classroom and share with people. And I think it helps to normalize conversations around it. And that's really a big key to it. Leaders and managers can [00:31:00] help to normalize conversations so that people.
Move from, I can't talk about that and I can't get help to, yes, this is something safe to talk about. So that's the first thing is just have leaders talk. Secondly, provi leaders and managers and HR professionals can be fostering empathy and providing understanding for people who come to them. With disabilities, mental health issues, et cetera.
So ask, ask reasonable questions about it. Find out about the appropriate accommodations. Work with your HR professionals to get them, uh, the, the reasonable accommodations for their, um, resources. So sort of big picture, talk about it, normalize it, but then on the on the ground, boots on the ground, let people talk to you and find out what accommodations can be made for them.
I'm gonna dig that. Go 
Derek Lundsten: ahead. Safety, please. 
Stacey Porter: No, no, no. I like, I, I, first of all, I love that I'm in a classroom right [00:32:00] now 'cause I'm learning so much from, from these two. And you Derek. Um, I, I think for me, I really agree with what Geoff said around, Hey, you know what, if we're watching out for our worker safety, our employee safety, uh, doesn't that include the whole person?
Absolutely. Um, and I love what Dr. Glen said about like, Hey, do we start to normalize and have stories about struggle or have stories about, you know, challenges that we're having with mental health or physical health or just kind of productivity in general? Yes. I think when leaders do that, they create an atmosphere where people can speak up and they can work ideas into the organization and they can be transparent without feeling like somebody's gonna be like, did you hear what she said?
Oh my God, she's got, you know, this, this issue. Um, let's see if, you know, does it play out in her work? Yeah. What I will tell you I think differently about though is boundaries are personal and I do not expect my company to manage my boundaries. And I expect that [00:33:00] our employees are able to identify where their boundaries are and then let them be known, and that we create empathetic managers.
Who can support how work gets done given those boundaries. So my expectation, um, certainly of my team, and we talk a lot about this at outset, is that I'm not gonna be writing a work-life integration policy. No way. That is for people to come in and determine how, given a body of work and given their skillset, they can get that done and they can get it done within the framework or culture.
So, um, when I am, you know, with, with my team and they put. Times on their calendar where they have a swim lesson for a child, you can bet I respect that boundary, but if I don't know them, I am likely to trample all over them. Yeah. So I would really, 'cause I will tell you, with our workforce, I will take every bit of intelligence.
And skill and talent and put it on display. That is my job and will creep me and managers [00:34:00] who can tell people that their skills are needed over here and their contribution is needed over here. And there's high challenge and there's high movement and there's high collaboration. So I think that boundaries are personal and they need to be known, and people need to not make them inconvenient or they will be trampled on.
[00:34:17] Culture must be shaped every day
Derek Lundsten: See this is, this is where we're getting to the, the heart of this conversation right now, which is, this is why this is like such a complicated topic, I think, to, to implement these I the idea of mental health support and emotion and resource in the workplace, excuse me, because of this, this, this exact conversation.
'cause we have different views on, on how we, how we do it. So, 'cause we, I agree. Obviously what we do, we offer support and resources to make this available to people. And I, I agree that there's a huge onus on personal responsibility. To share and to open up and to, and to learn. I think that's one important things.
I think to your points, what I've observed, at least Stacey, some people don't even know their, their boundaries effectively because mm-hmm. Come back for a moment, Geoff, to your comment. You, you had, you shared your personal experience and you also shared, shared your colleague who. You know, [00:35:00] unfortunately passed of his own choice there.
I would imagine that he would, was not clear on his boundaries. And for what it's worth, I would imagine that there was a lot of, a lot of fear, a lot of shame, a lot of guilt that he either had or was, was concerned about having if he sought the resources. And so balancing that, that, that and, and more importantly, teaching for that.
So back to empathetic managers, back to equipping people and teaching people how to, Because this is a, this is a very complicated topic. There's a lot of, I mean, it's the emotional and the mental and the, and the, and the heartfulness altogether, and there's a societal conditioning that we have and the workplace that is changing right now.
I, I think that this is a really, this is, this is what we're talking about. Like how do we balance that? Because you're right, Stacey, there's an expectation as business leaders, we have that when you show up, you do your job well, and you have a responsibility to, to let us know or to, to navigate your situation in your life at the same time.
The, the balance, the, to your comment, comment earlier, the balance of power is shifting as well. Mm-hmm. Employees can take their [00:36:00] talents and their agreements or their lack of tolerance for cer for certain things elsewhere. And so it requires a much deeper level understanding of seeking, of pursuing, of advocating.
That has not been done, I don't believe, historically, in companies, but is happening now. And I think, Geoff, you're giving that impassioned plea around it. So I, I, I guess I'd love to invite you guys to, to go deeper on this topic. From your lines, Geoff or Glen, because Stacey, I think you, you've very clearly said why we do what we do and how we balance it.
And, and also there's, there's another level here, so Yep. Anyone want to chime in on that?
Geoff McDonald: I mean, Derek, I, I, I, I find, you know, I find the conversation right now. It, it, it's kind of a dark conversation. What do I mean by that? What I mean by that is, is that it is important to have all the support resources and for people to have, you know, to know that there is stuff out [00:37:00] there that they can use, that they can acquire.
You know, if they were to, if they were to be struggling, and they've got leaders that would be empathetic about it, et cetera, et cetera. But I want us to have a more positive conversation. I want us to have a conversation that Stacey talks about is about how do we unleash and enhance. 
And by the way, yes. You know, we will make sure we've got support resources and empathetic line managers and we've tackled stigma. But, but I just, I, I think we've gotta, we've gotta create leaders and workplaces where, where we, where we, where we truly, truly value the energy that people bring to their work.
And you can't energize if you're not healthy. If you're not physically healthy, if you're not emotionally healthy, if you're not mentally healthy, you can't be energized. And so it's such an important enabler of performance. And so how do we create workplaces where we see this as a strategic imperative
 to enhance and under potential of people in workplaces? How do we make that a strategic [00:38:00] imperative, not a week called the Wellbeing Week. Where I care for you for one week of the year and then ilog you to death for the other 51 weeks of the year, you know? Or I've got a few bananas next to the till and the canteen, now we care for you.
I mean, there's nothing strategic about that. And so I think we've gotta take a far more strategic approach to shifting the culture of organizations where we have this more upside positive conversation around people's health and wellbeing. 
Glen Kreiner: I love that. And an, an analogy that I've heard in the, um, not only mental health space, but in traditional physical health practitioners too, they talk about upstream versus downstream.
And for oftentimes in the medical world and in the mental health world, people focus too much on the downstream. Uh, oh. Someone's in crisis, you know, jump in the river, save them, pull them out. Then we don't say, well, what's happening up the river that all of these people are getting in the water in the first place.
And [00:39:00] so something like Geoff's talking about of like, well, one week a year we're gonna focus on the problem and throw a party and have cake, and then 51 weeks, you know, sort of beat people down psychologically. That's an example of a downstream, oh, let's do this one little thing. Real strategy. To Geoff's point, I think real strategy is pulling back and looking at the whole river and saying, yes, we're gonna have some downstream interventions as needed, but what are we doing in terms of the culture of the organization to promote psychological safety, to promote a culture of diversity, equity, and inclusion, and under that diversity, equity, and inclusion umbrella.
Are we talking about neurodiversity? Are we talking about mental health? Are we talking about intellectual and developmental disabilities? Because those things often get left out in e d I conversations. There was, I just earlier today was watching a presentation [00:40:00] from S H R M, society for Human Resource Management.
In their executive network, they were presenting research that they had just done and they found that only two in 10 organizations included mental health and their d e I related efforts to a, to a great extent. Most didn't have it at all, or were marginally in it. Only one in 10 organizations had neurodiversity as a, as a serious part of their D E I initiatives.
So that those numbers are terrible, right? So, sorry to be dark for a second there, Geoff. But to turn it to the light side, what that tells us is the strategy needs to change. So when we're working with our chief people, officers like Stacey, right? Let's, let's clone Stacey and put her everywhere. Right? Short of doing that, we've gotta work with our chief people officers, with our top HR executives and say these issues around mental health and neurodiversity and [00:41:00] intellectual disabilities, these things need to be front and center in a strategy.
And then take a, and then the second part is take a strengths-based approach. Right. To Geoff's point about it's not all doom and gloom. What are the strengths that each person is bringing to that organization? And research for decades has shown when we take a strength-based approach that helps people thrive, that helps people to flourish in the workplace.
So rather think, oh, you have this problem that's part of you and sequester them. Say, okay, yeah, you've got this part of you, but there's also tremendous strengths and maybe even some of those strengths come from the neurodiversity. So, So just to, 
[00:41:38] The effect of management
Derek Lundsten: just to piggyback on this for a second though, I mean, arguably what you're, what I'm hearing you say that that shift, that shift towards growth, towards purpose, towards fulfillment, towards these different elements are what arguably we're doing.
We're focusing 52 weeks a year on these topics, right? I mean, you could make that case, right? That that's, we are in fact doing that if that's, if that's what we're, we're, we're [00:42:00] inviting people towards. Right. And then we're also giving that support on the other side of the continuum. Right. I. In essence, that's what I'm, that's what I'm hearing.
Arguably we need to still continue to invest more in education and training and helping managers, helping peers, and helping leaders move even further up that continuum of flourishing, of actualization, of fulfillment so that they can pour into others, right? I mean that's back to your concept or playing full circle back to giving, right? You're giving of yourself, you're giving of your energy, you're giving of your support.
So it's really about helping managers and leaders to be better stewards of energy, right? To be cultivators of energy, to be, to be providers of energy, right? So, I'm, that's what I'm hearing you say, and I think that's, so you're nodding Geoff. I can see at least through the. 
Stacey Porter: And, and Derek. I I think there's one thing else.
Uh, and this actually, Glen just kind of sparked this for me, but, um, [00:43:00] there is something about, and, and, and I mentioned this, like, if we're gonna hire great people, you can bet we're gonna utilize those talents. Yeah. But. I feel bad for a manager with seven people on their team to always be thinking about how to put talents on it, on display.
So how do we create employee systems? And this is actually something that Geoff said, processes and systems and kind of like infrastructure where employees can raise their hand and say, Hey, I have a strength in this area. I would love to contribute to that. Then they can, um, we don't organize that way.
Organizations never organize that way. They put in a management structure unless there's Zappos and then you work in circles and nobody reports anybody. Um, but if you have a management structure, we put in managers who their goal then is to kind of point people into the right direction and match talent with opportunity.
What we don't often organize around is the ability for employees to say, I see something over there that I can contribute to. You guys said it was important. [00:44:00] Can I make my way over there? Can I go where the work is? That actually to Dr. Glen's point is if I have neurodiversity, but I've got a real strength around objectivity or something that I can lend to, you know, a cause over here and I can say, Hey, I can help you guys with that.
Do I have a path? Can I get there? Does somebody stand in my way? Does somebody have to green light it? Is it a personal action notice it needs five approvers. I mean like, you know, how do we create paths? And one of the things we did in at Outset in 2022 is we created this great management program. And part of what we did is we said, Hey, why?
Do leadership development programs totally suck and they're terrible and they don't ever achieve their potential. And how do you design the opposite? And what we designed was really not for managers. It was for that employee at the end who we wanted to be engaged with, somebody who was their leader, manager, supervisor, whatever term you want to use.
And they were [00:45:00] conversationally competent. They were conversationally competent to talk about what work was important. How that person was doing on the work that was important and where they can grow and where they can go in that organization. That's all we cared about. And by the way, if you can see behind me, you realize I bought into the $3 billion, uh, business book industry, uh, have a lot of models of leadership back here, but who caress about that?
The end goal is employees, right? Managers are a conduit.
Derek Lundsten: Well said. Stacey.
 Gentlemen, anything you wanna comment on on any of that? 
Glen Kreiner: I, well, 
[00:45:34] Culture eats strategy for breakfast
Glen Kreiner: I'm a fan of everything that's been said, and something that I keep thinking about bringing some of these comments together is the need for alignment across lots of different things that leaders and managers do. So we've talked about culture, we've talked about policies, we've talked about strategy.
Let's just take those three to keep it simple for a second. Okay. Those three things need to [00:46:00] be aligned, so it's I, I sometimes say to my students like, you need to take your company to a chiropractor and get adjusted and get the spine aligned, right? Just like the chiropractor does get that spine back in alignment, because sometimes you'll have a culture that is at odds with a strategy.
Okay. And those things might be at odds with the PO HR policies, for example. So you have to, as you're assessing not just the culture and the strategy, but the holistic, what's in misalignment. So if you have a culture that strives to be highly collaborative, but an incentive structure that's very competitive, then you have a mismatch and.
People are unfortunately, very often motivated at a more base level, like paycheck is affected by this. I'm going toward competition. Which then undoes that goal, uh, toward the culture. Um, and then if you think about culture and strategy, there's an H B R [00:47:00] article I love, and, and in one of the sentences in it, we talk about it in class and it says, culture eats strategy for breakfast.
And I love that quote. 'cause I think oftentimes the, and this is partly our fault in business goals, we're emphasizing strategy, which is great. But if you have a strategic plan that is completely incongruent or largely incongruent with your culture, chances are it's gonna fail miserably. Right? You've got to figure out the culture, how to address cultural issues before you just do some mechanics around a strategy, because no one's gonna implement a strategic plan that is counter-cultural.
It's just, that's just the way that it works. So that's something that's come to mind through different threads of our conversation. 
Geoff McDonald: Yeah. And it's made me think Derek, um, and I just wanna share this. It's just, I mean, and I've got no real evidence and I know I've got a, I've got a, I've got an academic here in front of me that I'm talking to, so, you know, you should have evidence for [00:48:00] everything that you're saying.
But I'm just a, I'm just a practitioner. Um, and. I've got some lived experience around mental ill health and I'm trying to do some good in, let me just, let me just tell you why I don't think any of this wellbeing stuff actually sticks in workplaces because Glen's, what he said really triggered a thought, and I think that there are four reasons why it doesn't actually stick.
It doesn't become embedded. The culture organization where we want to enhance the lives of people who work for us. The first is, It's never a strategic imperative. 
 The second is, there's no organization accountability to enhance your health. I'll keep you safe, but I don't have to worry about your health. The third is there's no individual accountability. 
 to enhance people performance, their health. And the fourth is they're often cultural barriers that get in the way of the strategy. So let me give you an example. Don't tell me to go and [00:49:00] use a Headspace app if I've got a boss who's bullying me,
 sort out some of those cultural issues. when I'm in a culture that is 24 7, completely overworked, no control over what I do, and so I, I think we've gotta find a way of putting that all into the melting pot as we go forward in this particular area. Absolutely agree with Glen and Harvard culture eats strategy for breakfast every time.
Every single time. So you can have wonderful strategies, but if you don't address some of the cultural issues, it'll die in the water. No, and 
[00:49:40] Maintaining a positive culture
Derek Lundsten: I would say to that point, I. Both culture and strategy still come back to that question of why and the point the us why are we doing this? Why are we creating, why are we, why are we enacting the behaviors and policy decisions and team design that we are?
Why are we approaching a problem or in a situation where we are? And they are very much intermingled and I think that we, I. [00:50:00] Part of it. Again, a core issue is that in business we're oftentimes just doing, we're acting, we're doing, and we're, and that's part of the design, and we spend little time asking why, right?
We're conditioned to act and make decisions quickly, which is part of what we, that's part of what we're doing. But to take a step back, to really take a moment to be present, to ask that why, I think as a practice that. If we're going forward into leadership, it needs to be cultivated more actively, more intentionally, and to provide more time and energy to that, because that's the only way we're gonna solve for this is because we keep acting and acting and acting with a speed.
We're just, we just keep coming back to the same problem over and over again. Right. I think that's really what we're talking. Go ahead, Stacey. You're nodding, so No, 
Stacey Porter: no, no. I, I, I, Again, birds of a feather. Um, I think one of the things that I really agree with there, Derek, and I think what, you know, we often say, and, and probably, you know, Geoff and I have experienced this 'cause he's been in a big company and I've worked in bigger companies.
You say kind of that magic that you have at a small company, [00:51:00] you're not gonna be able to hold onto it as you scale. But that is such a pessimistic view. I mean, you can have some really good principles that you say, how can I take this to a culture of 150 to 500, to a thousand to 2000? And really hold fast to those.
And one of the things, and I'm convinced about this, this is strongly, um, believed in and not loosely examined, I promise, um, is the importance of information flow. I think one of the biggest things in organizations is people want to feel they can make a sense of progress. And progress means that you can work autonomously, you have enough information to work autonomously, and you have enough information to work collectively.
And when you work collectively, you can make decisions. And those decisions don't get edited. That means people in that organization need to know what's going on. And when organizations focus, and I think we do this really well on information flow. People don't have fomo. They don't, they don't have that fear of missing out on a [00:52:00] meeting or that they weren't on the email thread or they didn't get the text, or you know what the, there was a Saturday meeting that they weren't invited to.
They've got this joy of missing out because they know that they're supposed to be here and not here because these people have it and they know what's going on and they understand what were the input to that meeting? What was the output of that meeting? So it's one of the things that we really designed for is information flow.
Derek Lundsten: Completely agree. I, so I think you're exactly right. That allows, again, someone to take ownership and awareness of where they fit, what they can do, and how they can be culture creators and advocates. It's, it's the single biggest piece of, of how you, you know, how you cultivate sense of trust, in my opinion.
So, and, and we live in a world where information is so free available now. That's, I think, but it's also the double-edged sword cha. So, 'cause information flows so quickly, people create stories and that's also where leadership comes into place 
Stacey Porter: because, well, and it, it, it's interesting I was thinking about what you said [00:53:00] about why, and actually Glen and Geoff said this too, just, you know, for, for employees to have a sense of purpose, they've gotta have a sense of kind of like what's happening.
They've gotta have clarity. Even if it's six weeks of clarity, it's still clarity. Yeah. And I was, um, on a call earlier today with two of my team members. And we were in how, we were totally in tactics and I was like, wait a second, let's take a step back. Why are we doing this? And set that out. And then all of a sudden we got better about our how.
And there's that nietzche quote, right? The man with a why can survive any how I. I think when leaders feel like they can do that and they trust employees and they know that information's not gonna leak or it's not gonna be misused, um, because 99.9% of employees don't wanna come in and screw up at work.
They wanna come up and progress that enterprise. Um, and so I think it's really important and we work, we work hard 
Derek Lundsten: on it. Beautiful. Well, with that, it's hard to believe, but we're at the end of our time already. Thank you to each of you for sharing your time and your rebel heart and spirit with us today and your insight and wisdom.[00:54:00]
Thank you to our guests as always for joining us and to all who will watch this on the recording. Welcome officially to the Rebels community and we appreciate the time and the commitment to leadership here. Have a blessed day everyone.