00:00:06
Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.
00:00:07
Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Elisa Donovan.
00:00:14
Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. Some true crime cases fade from the headlines. Others become part of our collective memory. The disappearance of Natalie Holloway is one of those cases. In two thousand and five, the eighteen year old vanished during a high school graduation trip to Aruba, setting off an international investigation and leaving her family searching for answers for nearly two decades. Even after a confession in twenty twenty three, many questions and emotions remain. Today we are joined by actress Amy Gumminick, who portrayed Natalie in the two thousand and nine Lifetime movie Natalie Holloway. We'll talk about the responsibility of bringing a real victim to life, the emotional weight of stepping into such an iconic case while it was still unfolding, and how Amy looks back on the film now that so much more is known. Amy, thank you so much for being with me today.
00:01:12
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
00:01:14
Speaker 1: I have to say this movie, I mean, the entire case is so upsetting that it's hard to talk about. But this was one of your very first major roles, and I mean, what an incredible responsibility to have to portray this woman whose disappearance, I mean it captured the world's attention and it still wasn't solved at the time. So do you even remember, I know this was a bunch of years ago, but do you remember your reaction when you learned that you were cast as Natalie?
00:01:47
Speaker 2: I do, even just hearing you say that gives me the chills. It was I think one of my very first auditions ever straight out of college. Oh I remember even before getting cast, just getting the audition notice and immediately having sort of a guttural emotional reaction because I remember so clearly when it happened. Natalie and I were the same age, and it was really the first time, I think, as a teenager that I understood the dangers of our world as a young woman, and so when it actually happened and I'm watching it in real time in the news, it had a huge impact on me. So when I then was being asked to step into these shoes just as the as an audition, I remember having a moment of like, am I emotionally ready for this?
00:02:41
Speaker 1: Wow.
00:02:42
Speaker 2: And then you know, being cast. I think because I was, I was so new to this world. I really went into it trying to honor her as best as I could. I mean, I went back and watched little clips that were available, interviews with her parents. I later ended up reading her mom's book, but just to get a glimpse of, like who is this person? Because I felt like, even in the three minutes I had to audition, I wanted to honor her as best as possible and really no expectations of anything going further. So when I when I found out that I was cast in the role, I think it was shocking and a little bit terrifying, you know, most first and foremost because it was a huge responsibility as a young actress, but also because I wanted to give her family and hers the gift of sort of like telling her story and in some ways immortalizing who she was and celebrating life she had.
00:03:40
Speaker 1: I mean, that is such a It's not often that we get to do things that are so important, you know, like where there's another level to what you're doing, and especially at such a young age, it's quite a beautiful way to start. In my opinion, it's like just John Bright in there. Did you did you spend time then watching the video? There probably wasn't as much available then as there is now. All these things keep sort of you know, we get more and more information, But did you were you able to speak with her mom? Was she around at all? Was she involved? Not?
00:04:19
Speaker 2: Before I had asked? That was actually my first question when I got cast, was can I speak to anyone family friends? Because like you said, there wasn't very much available at the time. There were, you know, the news clips that we had seen. There was her mother's book, which was what the film was based on, so I read that and at the time I wasn't really there wasn't anything or anyone really accessible or that was willing to at that point speak to me. However, once we were filming her mom, Beth did come to set and was there ended up being wow, So I did meet her briefly. Her. My understanding was her day was supposed to be longer, but it was too hard to be there and watch it all play out in front of her.
00:05:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, what was what were you shooting when she came? What?
00:05:10
Speaker 2: You know, It's interesting when the day that I met her, it was we were filming sort of innocent parts like there wasn't it wasn't any and I'm sure that was intentional. I was filming a scene playing around with her my mom, but collegeberd a scene at the beach with my friends, so they kept it pretty light when she was there, even even having a few moments of interaction. We had some I had asked that we meet prior to just like meeting on set, so that we could have some privacy and wherever she was in her emotional process. And I remember the very first time I met her, they had her sort of off to this side, like near video village, but kind of in her own space, and I wasn't warned that she was going to be there. Oh my gosh, I didn't know what I was walking into. Yeah, And so all of a sudden they were like Amy Beth and she sort of gasped when she saw me and just like got teery and was like, oh wow, they're really there is there was an essence about you that's Natalie, and it just I think, oh wow, it still gives me the Jill's thinking about it, and her interaction was pretty brief. I had hoped for more, and again had no idea what to expect. Yeah, and she did like a little interview for the film, and that was kind of it.
00:06:42
Speaker 1: This really reminds me. I interviewed Shane Meyer, who played Matthew Shepherd in his story, and he had a similar experience with Matthew's mom. He they were supposed to have this planned meeting and then he ran into her. I just got chills thinking about it, him telling this story like in the in a parking lot at the hotel or something, and she just like she just wept because there was a piece of Matthew in him too, like that similar thing of there's something extraordinarily special about that, you know, Like that's.
00:07:16
Speaker 2: Just yeah, And I think it's one of those things that will forever stick with me, just having that moment looking into her eyes and feeling the both the honor and the tremendous responsibility to tell their story, to tell her daughter's.
00:07:37
Speaker 1: Story, right, I mean it's literally as a mother, you know, your worst nightmare. It's my worst Nightmary. It's just unimaginable. And I think the only thing you can do in these situations, you know, like why do we tell these stories in films and television shows? It's to create some healing and closure and allowing people to understand really the depth of what people go through in these situations. You know, one of the things that made this case so agonizing is that you're in van der Slut. He kept changing his story over and over again. And I mean, what was it like knowing that her Nally's family was riding that emotional roller coaster every time they thought they might finally get an answer. You know, that is just an incredibly impossible thing to metabolize, I think.
00:08:39
Speaker 2: And I think that that is why Beth in particular kept going. I think, you know, it was eighteen years from the time that Natalie disappeared to when they had any sort of answer as to what happened to her. And like you said, as a mother, you know, I filmed this fresh out of college, and now I'm a mother, I have a very different perspective. You know, even just in the last few weeks, knowing that I was going to be talking to you, I have been watching some of the more recent interviews. Obviously, I've followed the case closely all of these years, but I think that one of the things that sort of kept her going and kept her hope alive. Was what you just said was like, Okay, how do I use my story, use my experience to help others to prevent this from happening to other families and a face and a support for those going through it? Unfortunately it's not that rare. But yeah, I mean I can't even begin to imagine the daily turmoil. You know, she talks about it as like she lives every day for her as a living nightmare.
00:09:49
Speaker 1: Right.
00:09:49
Speaker 2: I mean think any parents should ever have to even feel a fraction of like.
00:09:55
Speaker 1: It becomes that's now the story of your life. I'm always so moved by these things. This idea of your life just takes this complete oneint eighty and you are left with this option of what to do. Do I just completely lose my life and myself and everything, or do I try to repair and make some sense of it?
00:10:22
Speaker 2: I cannot. I don't know how any parent continues, you know, moves on and finds purpose and finds joy. And that was one of the things that was really striking when I met Beth was I was so in awe of her strength, of her like willingness to be there and put herself out there and be vulnerable and there is and you know, even watching interviews, you can tell there's there's something indescribable behind her eyes that is forever broken. I see that, I really do.
00:11:16
Speaker 1: Listening to his uron vander Slut's confession, there is this a very fine line between you know, exploitation and but I feel like it was so important for me to hear this person speak and realize this. He feels no remorse. This is like a that is a damaged, sick human being. Yeah, that has no the kind of very methodical. It's like he could have been, you know, reading a lunch menu to you like it was. I just could not get over it. And she her her mom is just so she's really something. I mean, she really is amazing, and I.
00:12:10
Speaker 2: Think it's survival. It's the only way she Yeah, she could. I mean even hearing her talk about her like her reflections of his confession, she shares very similarly to what you were just saying. But there's almost not an understanding in any way, but an acceptance of this is not a human, this is a monster. This is so he can't be upheld to the same moral standards. And at the same time, like how I don't know, I don't know, how you move on or how you forget or you know, I think for her after so many years, finally hearing what they believed now to be the truth.
00:12:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, some sort of enclosure.
00:12:55
Speaker 2: I don't even know.
00:12:57
Speaker 1: When you were shooting the movie, did you have any theories or feelings about what you thought really happened to Natalie.
00:13:07
Speaker 2: I mean, I think there was never a doubt in my mind that he was guilty, that he killed her, and that it was intentional. You know, it's interesting because so much of the information that was provided to me through like you know, her book and the accounts of her family and friends. It was like a puzzle sort of putting the pieces together, trying to figure out and the stories were not that drastically different, but different enough, and each one more gruesome than the one before that, Like it almost became like the details weren't what mattered. It was just like some sense of like finding justice or I almost like wanted it to be justified in some way, Like maybe I wanted it to be an accident because I didn't want to believe that it was as horrible right it was.
00:13:58
Speaker 1: That's kind of one of the things that's heartbreaking about the movie. Is when you see the Beath character played by Tracy Poullin, when she's saying things like she gets these glimpses of hope, and she's on this mission like we're gonna find her. She like, it's just heartbreaking because you know that that's never going to happen, and it's just it's heartbreaking.
00:14:25
Speaker 2: And to be dragged along. I mean some you know, some of his confessions included possibilities that she was still alive, that she was sold to sex slavery, or so I think that there was you know, it's impossible to not lose hope even you know, obviously I'm very removed from the story and from the actual people, but I think even you know, as recently as a few years ago when he was finally well, I say, finally confessed, but the most recent confession, there was still this. I agree, you know, I knew in my heart and in my gut it was possible that she, all these years later, was still alive. But it's hard to let go of that tiny piece of hope because you're so bad as you know, want this to be a nightmare to be like, oh, it was horrible film that we watched, but it's not true. It doesn't actually ask people. And I think for Beth, because she turned her experience into sort of a newfound purpose or reason for continuing, she needed that hope to keep going.
00:15:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, I mean that's really because they they still there was never a body, which is something that makes it very concrete and real that someone has gone. And I think that's got to be a piece of why she needed this confession to be real. I guess they only you need some kind of way to move forward.
00:15:54
Speaker 2: It is beyond horrific, the whole thing.
00:15:58
Speaker 1: I talked to jirelle Jerome, who was in the Incredible series when they see Us, the Ava Diverne series about the Central Park five, and I was asking him what like the most difficult scenes were to do, and you know, he ironically said, I brought up this one scene towards the end, and it's it's it's like a fantasy, it's what if he didn't go to the police station kind of thing. And it's this beautiful scene where he goes to Coney Island and he has this beautiful time with his girlfriend and Jirell like broke down. He's like, that was the hardest thing to do because it was like, this is what could have been? You know, So I'm curious for you what what were the hardest things to shoot and was it a surprise? What was difficult? Do you remember?
00:16:47
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think two things come to mind. One in a you know, very similar vein there is a montage and I'm forgetting if it was in Natalie Holloway or Justice for Natalie, the sequel that we did sort of a happy montage and it was graduation day and Natalie like running through a field in her cap and gown and doing cartwheels and puddling with her mom and not necessarily like what could have been, but what the life that she had. This was a young girl who was so full of life and so full of potential. So I think those the happy moments. I can absolutely relate to what he said that they those were the most surprising. I think for me, like the difficulty in filming those was really surprising, Yeah, because I thought those would be the easiest to film. But it was the imagining and really understanding and living like the joy that was so was cut so short.
00:17:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, And maybe that's why it was so hard for her mom. Maybe that's why she couldn't stay longer. You know, they probably and rightfully so assume a scene like that will be easier for her to metabolize, but not necessarily.
00:18:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so interesting that you bring that up to because I don't think I would have thought about that, but now reflecting the Yeah, the surprise of how hard those scenes were, and really, I mean every day was there was something there was you know, it was a hard rule to walk back to my hotel room and shake off at the end of the day, to live these nightmares on set every day, you know, obviously thankfully in a pretend world, but then to kind of reflect and replay, and it was emotionally very I think challenging throughout. I mean, I was really lucky to work with people like Tracy, who is so as a person, just so positive and so suppose live and she really became like my mom on set and kind of held my hand through those hard scenes and days, even if she wasn't literally there with me. And so I think because because of the subject matter, the cast became really close. We needed each other to process and yeah, like shake it off together and kind of come back to reality.
00:19:26
Speaker 1: Right, did you guys talk about the case on set, like with the cut, were you guys talking about what was happening or were you really sticking with the a little bit?
00:19:35
Speaker 2: It was mostly what you know, what was talked about in the script. There were definitely ongoing conversations I would say, amongst the cast, but also with the producers when questions would arise, especially because so much of it, everything that we played out from like a legal standpoint, had been at least mentioned in court at some point. But there was a fine line between you know, as the actors wanting to feel like we weren't embellishing or we weren't dramatizing, we were actually like staying as true to the story as possible, And so I think in that sense we talked about it, but there there was It was mostly as it pertained to the film and to the script, but then definitely after the fact, you know, anytime there's any sort of break in the case or update, everybody sort of like did you see this?
00:20:43
Speaker 1: Have you talked to your kids about this? Like do you what or how old are they?
00:20:46
Speaker 2: First of all their teeny, my oldest is four.
00:20:49
Speaker 1: Oh okay, so no, but it is definitely.
00:20:53
Speaker 2: Something that I don't even know how.
00:20:57
Speaker 1: How you bring up Yeah, I mean I think about I have a fourteen year old daughter and newly fourteen, and I just can't you know, I feel like, okay, so she's just I guess she just won't ever go anywhere, you know what I mean. Like it's a very hard to uh metabolize to not kind of become fatalistic and not because we all know. I'm sure you know this already, even even though you're old is only four that the more you say something, the less interested they are hearing it. So you know, it's like an impossible task to figure.
00:21:36
Speaker 2: Out even with you know, little tiny ones. My husband and I just talked about a few days ago, like how do how do we feel about things like sleepovers and plates? Like we're right on the verge of like we still go to the plates, but that yeah, right, there's a different reality and I think that that it is. You know, we were discussing how when we were growing up it really was like you're raised by a village and every but he was always at it. Yeah, and as long as my parents knew where I was, it was fine. But it's it has changed. It's different now. It is a hard thing you know, even though I'm not quite there yet with my own kids. It's it's a really terrifying thing to navigate because there's a you know, you don't want to be overprotective and keep them in a little bubble, even though we want to. And at the same time, I think, you know, you do have to be realistic and teach them like the reality of the world that we live in, the reality of the.
00:22:34
Speaker 1: World right has did Did making this film change the way you think about traveling or traveling alone as a woman?
00:22:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it was interesting so that the film was in We shot in South Africa, and like I said, it was one of my very first projects, professional projects as an actor ever. And my mom came with me for the beginning of the shoot. And I think part of that was because of the subject matter that I was like, wait, I'm traveling across and it was more her, I think her wanting to be right.
00:23:06
Speaker 1: She was like, I'm gonna stay.
00:23:08
Speaker 2: Her to what where? But it was I think a really big growing opportunity for me. She so she came with me and was with me for half of the shoot, also going you know, literally across the globe to film this thing. Having no idea what I was going to find on the other end, and she left halfway through, and so the second half of the filming was on my own. And I think that that I think it was a really like pivotal moment in my life of sort of stepping into like, Okay, I can do this. I am safe. I am with people that I trust, and seeing that she trusted, you know, trusted enough to leave me and let me experience this, obviously I was safe. But yeah, it's definitely something that I think about that I am. I think I probably think about more having had the experience of filming it than had I not right, even I'm more like subconscious.
00:24:05
Speaker 1: What was your reaction when Jurine van der Slute confessed to the killing in twenty twenty three as part of his plea agreement.
00:24:14
Speaker 2: To be totally honest. I was angry at first. It was like I didn't I didn't know if we could believe him. It was you know, it had been so many years and so many false accus are at confessions, and you know, after he extortion and just sort of this like horrible ring around that he had put her poor family through.
00:24:39
Speaker 1: Right, So were people who don't know he had extorted demanded two hundred and fifty thousand dollars from Beth, Natalie's mom, in order to give her information about what happened to Natalie.
00:24:53
Speaker 2: Which was false. Again right, So yeah, Initially I think my first reaction was like, again, like, you know, how do we know? How do we know? Why? Why would this time be different? And then I think following that, you know, he was then tried for murdering another young girl in a similar fashion, and I think that that sort of then became almost like a little bit of relief for the family of like, Okay, finally they can have some sort of closure or just like they know that he isn't just out there now, right, you know, even though he has never been tried for Natalie's murder at least like something.
00:25:38
Speaker 1: That is what I can't I can't get over that because so initially it seems that you all cover this in the film, and also in reality, I think this is very much true that his dad was somewhat protected in Aruba because he was an attorney and sort of up for some sort of important position, and so they almost they sheltered him in a way that seems totally outrageous to me, but so and his I also heard. I think it was one of the was this thing that this was I think in a documentary that the money. So they did give him twenty five thousand dollars as to sort of trap him, and then he used that money to get to Peru and that's when he murdered this other young girl. And so like the tentacles of this whole thing and the guilt that people feel, and it's just endless and it's so upsetting on so many levels.
00:26:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, and don't you know, I don't know that they will ever truly be justice or if they will ever know the full story. Like you said, there's no body, there's no true evidence. But I think at some point in order to move on, you have to just believe.
00:27:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like you have to make an internal decision to say I believe this to be the truth, and now I can yeah.
00:27:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, but really never with any true closure or feeling of safety or security in any of it. Yeah, you know, he himself is a father.
00:27:30
Speaker 1: I did not know that until literally maybe fifteen minutes before we started talking today.
00:27:38
Speaker 2: What but it goes back to what you were saying. I mean, this is a person who clearly has no remorse. Who is you know, for lack of better words, not human, which is terrifying acknowledge that there are people like that that exist, and you know, someone like him who was free for almost eighteen years.
00:27:57
Speaker 1: That's as long as she was alive. Even more right, it's crazy. Do people still recognize you for this role? And do they bring it up to you?
00:28:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's interesting, it's sort of I always tease it. It's like the surprise that like always pops up I'll be doing something. And I just recently did a convention for a CW show, Supernatural that I worked on actually like around the same time, and had somebody bring me a picture from the film to sign, and it sort of caught me off guard.
00:28:32
Speaker 1: Oh wow.
00:28:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, but yes, it definitely comes up a lot, or even in auditions it will be like broad up people will ask about it. But even I would say, the most impactful I get, not recognition, but sort of how it has stayed with me is that every time Natalie pops up in the news, her story is any sort of coverage I get sent from multiple friends and family, like emails or links to news clips or article right in a way that feels, you know, obviously I'm forever connected to her story, but also a little bit surreal that there's like still there. I guess there is forever an association between she and I. M.
00:29:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a right. Now it's become part of your story too. I always think that's so interesting, And I don't think it's accidental. You know, when like the right people are chosen for these sorts of things, you know, it's clear that you can carry that weight with you, you know, like you're able to give that grace and you know important. So I think that's not an accident.
00:29:48
Speaker 2: And I you know, like I said, even from when I found out I was going to be working on it, I feel incredibly honored to have been a piece of her story in terms of honoring her memory for her family in some way.
00:30:04
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, this has been such a wonderful conversation. You're just such a lovely spirit in general. I'm so pleased I got to meet you. Is there anything you're working on you want to tell us about, or you just working on the little ones in your house.
00:30:20
Speaker 2: Right right now? Being mom? Yeah, yeah, the little one about to join our family.
00:30:27
Speaker 1: Oh wow, that.
00:30:29
Speaker 2: Is right now. I feel like that's like my greatest rule.
00:30:34
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, yes, congratulations, thank you, thank you. Oh it's the best thing ever. And it does. I will say. I just was on a flight with two people not with them. They were sitting across from me, a couple with the little one who I would guess is like thirteen fourteen months. So that which is the most exhausting age on an airplane with a child, because they're like, oh I can I can move my body and walk.
00:31:07
Speaker 2: Around nails and not just a seatbelt. How dare you restrict? I watched these.
00:31:12
Speaker 1: Two and these two people were just like I could see the exhaustion in their faces, and I said, it really is exhausting, but it gets so much more exhausting in a different way. You know, it's not, but it is. It does get easier too. I mean, my daughter's will sleep away camp right now. Oh I badgine that, which is like crazy town. That's a whole other set of like and then like you miss them and then you went. But then I'm like, wow, there's so many hours in the day now, Like I just have so much time to get things done.
00:31:46
Speaker 2: I don't even know what that means yeah, right, it's very much appreciated, so.
00:31:50
Speaker 1: You'll you'll get there, but enjoy it all. I'll enjoy it all. You can watch the film Natalie Holloway. It is streaming online as well as as the sequel, Justice for Natalie Holloway. Amy, you are a pleasure, and thank you so much for talking with me today.
00:32:09
Speaker 2: Thank you
Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.
00:00:07
Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Elisa Donovan.
00:00:14
Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. Some true crime cases fade from the headlines. Others become part of our collective memory. The disappearance of Natalie Holloway is one of those cases. In two thousand and five, the eighteen year old vanished during a high school graduation trip to Aruba, setting off an international investigation and leaving her family searching for answers for nearly two decades. Even after a confession in twenty twenty three, many questions and emotions remain. Today we are joined by actress Amy Gumminick, who portrayed Natalie in the two thousand and nine Lifetime movie Natalie Holloway. We'll talk about the responsibility of bringing a real victim to life, the emotional weight of stepping into such an iconic case while it was still unfolding, and how Amy looks back on the film now that so much more is known. Amy, thank you so much for being with me today.
00:01:12
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
00:01:14
Speaker 1: I have to say this movie, I mean, the entire case is so upsetting that it's hard to talk about. But this was one of your very first major roles, and I mean, what an incredible responsibility to have to portray this woman whose disappearance, I mean it captured the world's attention and it still wasn't solved at the time. So do you even remember, I know this was a bunch of years ago, but do you remember your reaction when you learned that you were cast as Natalie?
00:01:47
Speaker 2: I do, even just hearing you say that gives me the chills. It was I think one of my very first auditions ever straight out of college. Oh I remember even before getting cast, just getting the audition notice and immediately having sort of a guttural emotional reaction because I remember so clearly when it happened. Natalie and I were the same age, and it was really the first time, I think, as a teenager that I understood the dangers of our world as a young woman, and so when it actually happened and I'm watching it in real time in the news, it had a huge impact on me. So when I then was being asked to step into these shoes just as the as an audition, I remember having a moment of like, am I emotionally ready for this?
00:02:41
Speaker 1: Wow.
00:02:42
Speaker 2: And then you know, being cast. I think because I was, I was so new to this world. I really went into it trying to honor her as best as I could. I mean, I went back and watched little clips that were available, interviews with her parents. I later ended up reading her mom's book, but just to get a glimpse of, like who is this person? Because I felt like, even in the three minutes I had to audition, I wanted to honor her as best as possible and really no expectations of anything going further. So when I when I found out that I was cast in the role, I think it was shocking and a little bit terrifying, you know, most first and foremost because it was a huge responsibility as a young actress, but also because I wanted to give her family and hers the gift of sort of like telling her story and in some ways immortalizing who she was and celebrating life she had.
00:03:40
Speaker 1: I mean, that is such a It's not often that we get to do things that are so important, you know, like where there's another level to what you're doing, and especially at such a young age, it's quite a beautiful way to start. In my opinion, it's like just John Bright in there. Did you did you spend time then watching the video? There probably wasn't as much available then as there is now. All these things keep sort of you know, we get more and more information, But did you were you able to speak with her mom? Was she around at all? Was she involved? Not?
00:04:19
Speaker 2: Before I had asked? That was actually my first question when I got cast, was can I speak to anyone family friends? Because like you said, there wasn't very much available at the time. There were, you know, the news clips that we had seen. There was her mother's book, which was what the film was based on, so I read that and at the time I wasn't really there wasn't anything or anyone really accessible or that was willing to at that point speak to me. However, once we were filming her mom, Beth did come to set and was there ended up being wow, So I did meet her briefly. Her. My understanding was her day was supposed to be longer, but it was too hard to be there and watch it all play out in front of her.
00:05:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, what was what were you shooting when she came? What?
00:05:10
Speaker 2: You know, It's interesting when the day that I met her, it was we were filming sort of innocent parts like there wasn't it wasn't any and I'm sure that was intentional. I was filming a scene playing around with her my mom, but collegeberd a scene at the beach with my friends, so they kept it pretty light when she was there, even even having a few moments of interaction. We had some I had asked that we meet prior to just like meeting on set, so that we could have some privacy and wherever she was in her emotional process. And I remember the very first time I met her, they had her sort of off to this side, like near video village, but kind of in her own space, and I wasn't warned that she was going to be there. Oh my gosh, I didn't know what I was walking into. Yeah, And so all of a sudden they were like Amy Beth and she sort of gasped when she saw me and just like got teery and was like, oh wow, they're really there is there was an essence about you that's Natalie, and it just I think, oh wow, it still gives me the Jill's thinking about it, and her interaction was pretty brief. I had hoped for more, and again had no idea what to expect. Yeah, and she did like a little interview for the film, and that was kind of it.
00:06:42
Speaker 1: This really reminds me. I interviewed Shane Meyer, who played Matthew Shepherd in his story, and he had a similar experience with Matthew's mom. He they were supposed to have this planned meeting and then he ran into her. I just got chills thinking about it, him telling this story like in the in a parking lot at the hotel or something, and she just like she just wept because there was a piece of Matthew in him too, like that similar thing of there's something extraordinarily special about that, you know, Like that's.
00:07:16
Speaker 2: Just yeah, And I think it's one of those things that will forever stick with me, just having that moment looking into her eyes and feeling the both the honor and the tremendous responsibility to tell their story, to tell her daughter's.
00:07:37
Speaker 1: Story, right, I mean it's literally as a mother, you know, your worst nightmare. It's my worst Nightmary. It's just unimaginable. And I think the only thing you can do in these situations, you know, like why do we tell these stories in films and television shows? It's to create some healing and closure and allowing people to understand really the depth of what people go through in these situations. You know, one of the things that made this case so agonizing is that you're in van der Slut. He kept changing his story over and over again. And I mean, what was it like knowing that her Nally's family was riding that emotional roller coaster every time they thought they might finally get an answer. You know, that is just an incredibly impossible thing to metabolize, I think.
00:08:39
Speaker 2: And I think that that is why Beth in particular kept going. I think, you know, it was eighteen years from the time that Natalie disappeared to when they had any sort of answer as to what happened to her. And like you said, as a mother, you know, I filmed this fresh out of college, and now I'm a mother, I have a very different perspective. You know, even just in the last few weeks, knowing that I was going to be talking to you, I have been watching some of the more recent interviews. Obviously, I've followed the case closely all of these years, but I think that one of the things that sort of kept her going and kept her hope alive. Was what you just said was like, Okay, how do I use my story, use my experience to help others to prevent this from happening to other families and a face and a support for those going through it? Unfortunately it's not that rare. But yeah, I mean I can't even begin to imagine the daily turmoil. You know, she talks about it as like she lives every day for her as a living nightmare.
00:09:49
Speaker 1: Right.
00:09:49
Speaker 2: I mean think any parents should ever have to even feel a fraction of like.
00:09:55
Speaker 1: It becomes that's now the story of your life. I'm always so moved by these things. This idea of your life just takes this complete oneint eighty and you are left with this option of what to do. Do I just completely lose my life and myself and everything, or do I try to repair and make some sense of it?
00:10:22
Speaker 2: I cannot. I don't know how any parent continues, you know, moves on and finds purpose and finds joy. And that was one of the things that was really striking when I met Beth was I was so in awe of her strength, of her like willingness to be there and put herself out there and be vulnerable and there is and you know, even watching interviews, you can tell there's there's something indescribable behind her eyes that is forever broken. I see that, I really do.
00:11:16
Speaker 1: Listening to his uron vander Slut's confession, there is this a very fine line between you know, exploitation and but I feel like it was so important for me to hear this person speak and realize this. He feels no remorse. This is like a that is a damaged, sick human being. Yeah, that has no the kind of very methodical. It's like he could have been, you know, reading a lunch menu to you like it was. I just could not get over it. And she her her mom is just so she's really something. I mean, she really is amazing, and I.
00:12:10
Speaker 2: Think it's survival. It's the only way she Yeah, she could. I mean even hearing her talk about her like her reflections of his confession, she shares very similarly to what you were just saying. But there's almost not an understanding in any way, but an acceptance of this is not a human, this is a monster. This is so he can't be upheld to the same moral standards. And at the same time, like how I don't know, I don't know, how you move on or how you forget or you know, I think for her after so many years, finally hearing what they believed now to be the truth.
00:12:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, some sort of enclosure.
00:12:55
Speaker 2: I don't even know.
00:12:57
Speaker 1: When you were shooting the movie, did you have any theories or feelings about what you thought really happened to Natalie.
00:13:07
Speaker 2: I mean, I think there was never a doubt in my mind that he was guilty, that he killed her, and that it was intentional. You know, it's interesting because so much of the information that was provided to me through like you know, her book and the accounts of her family and friends. It was like a puzzle sort of putting the pieces together, trying to figure out and the stories were not that drastically different, but different enough, and each one more gruesome than the one before that, Like it almost became like the details weren't what mattered. It was just like some sense of like finding justice or I almost like wanted it to be justified in some way, Like maybe I wanted it to be an accident because I didn't want to believe that it was as horrible right it was.
00:13:58
Speaker 1: That's kind of one of the things that's heartbreaking about the movie. Is when you see the Beath character played by Tracy Poullin, when she's saying things like she gets these glimpses of hope, and she's on this mission like we're gonna find her. She like, it's just heartbreaking because you know that that's never going to happen, and it's just it's heartbreaking.
00:14:25
Speaker 2: And to be dragged along. I mean some you know, some of his confessions included possibilities that she was still alive, that she was sold to sex slavery, or so I think that there was you know, it's impossible to not lose hope even you know, obviously I'm very removed from the story and from the actual people, but I think even you know, as recently as a few years ago when he was finally well, I say, finally confessed, but the most recent confession, there was still this. I agree, you know, I knew in my heart and in my gut it was possible that she, all these years later, was still alive. But it's hard to let go of that tiny piece of hope because you're so bad as you know, want this to be a nightmare to be like, oh, it was horrible film that we watched, but it's not true. It doesn't actually ask people. And I think for Beth, because she turned her experience into sort of a newfound purpose or reason for continuing, she needed that hope to keep going.
00:15:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, I mean that's really because they they still there was never a body, which is something that makes it very concrete and real that someone has gone. And I think that's got to be a piece of why she needed this confession to be real. I guess they only you need some kind of way to move forward.
00:15:54
Speaker 2: It is beyond horrific, the whole thing.
00:15:58
Speaker 1: I talked to jirelle Jerome, who was in the Incredible series when they see Us, the Ava Diverne series about the Central Park five, and I was asking him what like the most difficult scenes were to do, and you know, he ironically said, I brought up this one scene towards the end, and it's it's it's like a fantasy, it's what if he didn't go to the police station kind of thing. And it's this beautiful scene where he goes to Coney Island and he has this beautiful time with his girlfriend and Jirell like broke down. He's like, that was the hardest thing to do because it was like, this is what could have been? You know, So I'm curious for you what what were the hardest things to shoot and was it a surprise? What was difficult? Do you remember?
00:16:47
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think two things come to mind. One in a you know, very similar vein there is a montage and I'm forgetting if it was in Natalie Holloway or Justice for Natalie, the sequel that we did sort of a happy montage and it was graduation day and Natalie like running through a field in her cap and gown and doing cartwheels and puddling with her mom and not necessarily like what could have been, but what the life that she had. This was a young girl who was so full of life and so full of potential. So I think those the happy moments. I can absolutely relate to what he said that they those were the most surprising. I think for me, like the difficulty in filming those was really surprising, Yeah, because I thought those would be the easiest to film. But it was the imagining and really understanding and living like the joy that was so was cut so short.
00:17:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, And maybe that's why it was so hard for her mom. Maybe that's why she couldn't stay longer. You know, they probably and rightfully so assume a scene like that will be easier for her to metabolize, but not necessarily.
00:18:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so interesting that you bring that up to because I don't think I would have thought about that, but now reflecting the Yeah, the surprise of how hard those scenes were, and really, I mean every day was there was something there was you know, it was a hard rule to walk back to my hotel room and shake off at the end of the day, to live these nightmares on set every day, you know, obviously thankfully in a pretend world, but then to kind of reflect and replay, and it was emotionally very I think challenging throughout. I mean, I was really lucky to work with people like Tracy, who is so as a person, just so positive and so suppose live and she really became like my mom on set and kind of held my hand through those hard scenes and days, even if she wasn't literally there with me. And so I think because because of the subject matter, the cast became really close. We needed each other to process and yeah, like shake it off together and kind of come back to reality.
00:19:26
Speaker 1: Right, did you guys talk about the case on set, like with the cut, were you guys talking about what was happening or were you really sticking with the a little bit?
00:19:35
Speaker 2: It was mostly what you know, what was talked about in the script. There were definitely ongoing conversations I would say, amongst the cast, but also with the producers when questions would arise, especially because so much of it, everything that we played out from like a legal standpoint, had been at least mentioned in court at some point. But there was a fine line between you know, as the actors wanting to feel like we weren't embellishing or we weren't dramatizing, we were actually like staying as true to the story as possible, And so I think in that sense we talked about it, but there there was It was mostly as it pertained to the film and to the script, but then definitely after the fact, you know, anytime there's any sort of break in the case or update, everybody sort of like did you see this?
00:20:43
Speaker 1: Have you talked to your kids about this? Like do you what or how old are they?
00:20:46
Speaker 2: First of all their teeny, my oldest is four.
00:20:49
Speaker 1: Oh okay, so no, but it is definitely.
00:20:53
Speaker 2: Something that I don't even know how.
00:20:57
Speaker 1: How you bring up Yeah, I mean I think about I have a fourteen year old daughter and newly fourteen, and I just can't you know, I feel like, okay, so she's just I guess she just won't ever go anywhere, you know what I mean. Like it's a very hard to uh metabolize to not kind of become fatalistic and not because we all know. I'm sure you know this already, even even though you're old is only four that the more you say something, the less interested they are hearing it. So you know, it's like an impossible task to figure.
00:21:36
Speaker 2: Out even with you know, little tiny ones. My husband and I just talked about a few days ago, like how do how do we feel about things like sleepovers and plates? Like we're right on the verge of like we still go to the plates, but that yeah, right, there's a different reality and I think that that it is. You know, we were discussing how when we were growing up it really was like you're raised by a village and every but he was always at it. Yeah, and as long as my parents knew where I was, it was fine. But it's it has changed. It's different now. It is a hard thing you know, even though I'm not quite there yet with my own kids. It's it's a really terrifying thing to navigate because there's a you know, you don't want to be overprotective and keep them in a little bubble, even though we want to. And at the same time, I think, you know, you do have to be realistic and teach them like the reality of the world that we live in, the reality of the.
00:22:34
Speaker 1: World right has did Did making this film change the way you think about traveling or traveling alone as a woman?
00:22:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it was interesting so that the film was in We shot in South Africa, and like I said, it was one of my very first projects, professional projects as an actor ever. And my mom came with me for the beginning of the shoot. And I think part of that was because of the subject matter that I was like, wait, I'm traveling across and it was more her, I think her wanting to be right.
00:23:06
Speaker 1: She was like, I'm gonna stay.
00:23:08
Speaker 2: Her to what where? But it was I think a really big growing opportunity for me. She so she came with me and was with me for half of the shoot, also going you know, literally across the globe to film this thing. Having no idea what I was going to find on the other end, and she left halfway through, and so the second half of the filming was on my own. And I think that that I think it was a really like pivotal moment in my life of sort of stepping into like, Okay, I can do this. I am safe. I am with people that I trust, and seeing that she trusted, you know, trusted enough to leave me and let me experience this, obviously I was safe. But yeah, it's definitely something that I think about that I am. I think I probably think about more having had the experience of filming it than had I not right, even I'm more like subconscious.
00:24:05
Speaker 1: What was your reaction when Jurine van der Slute confessed to the killing in twenty twenty three as part of his plea agreement.
00:24:14
Speaker 2: To be totally honest. I was angry at first. It was like I didn't I didn't know if we could believe him. It was you know, it had been so many years and so many false accus are at confessions, and you know, after he extortion and just sort of this like horrible ring around that he had put her poor family through.
00:24:39
Speaker 1: Right, So were people who don't know he had extorted demanded two hundred and fifty thousand dollars from Beth, Natalie's mom, in order to give her information about what happened to Natalie.
00:24:53
Speaker 2: Which was false. Again right, So yeah, Initially I think my first reaction was like, again, like, you know, how do we know? How do we know? Why? Why would this time be different? And then I think following that, you know, he was then tried for murdering another young girl in a similar fashion, and I think that that sort of then became almost like a little bit of relief for the family of like, Okay, finally they can have some sort of closure or just like they know that he isn't just out there now, right, you know, even though he has never been tried for Natalie's murder at least like something.
00:25:38
Speaker 1: That is what I can't I can't get over that because so initially it seems that you all cover this in the film, and also in reality, I think this is very much true that his dad was somewhat protected in Aruba because he was an attorney and sort of up for some sort of important position, and so they almost they sheltered him in a way that seems totally outrageous to me, but so and his I also heard. I think it was one of the was this thing that this was I think in a documentary that the money. So they did give him twenty five thousand dollars as to sort of trap him, and then he used that money to get to Peru and that's when he murdered this other young girl. And so like the tentacles of this whole thing and the guilt that people feel, and it's just endless and it's so upsetting on so many levels.
00:26:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, and don't you know, I don't know that they will ever truly be justice or if they will ever know the full story. Like you said, there's no body, there's no true evidence. But I think at some point in order to move on, you have to just believe.
00:27:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like you have to make an internal decision to say I believe this to be the truth, and now I can yeah.
00:27:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, but really never with any true closure or feeling of safety or security in any of it. Yeah, you know, he himself is a father.
00:27:30
Speaker 1: I did not know that until literally maybe fifteen minutes before we started talking today.
00:27:38
Speaker 2: What but it goes back to what you were saying. I mean, this is a person who clearly has no remorse. Who is you know, for lack of better words, not human, which is terrifying acknowledge that there are people like that that exist, and you know, someone like him who was free for almost eighteen years.
00:27:57
Speaker 1: That's as long as she was alive. Even more right, it's crazy. Do people still recognize you for this role? And do they bring it up to you?
00:28:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's interesting, it's sort of I always tease it. It's like the surprise that like always pops up I'll be doing something. And I just recently did a convention for a CW show, Supernatural that I worked on actually like around the same time, and had somebody bring me a picture from the film to sign, and it sort of caught me off guard.
00:28:32
Speaker 1: Oh wow.
00:28:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, but yes, it definitely comes up a lot, or even in auditions it will be like broad up people will ask about it. But even I would say, the most impactful I get, not recognition, but sort of how it has stayed with me is that every time Natalie pops up in the news, her story is any sort of coverage I get sent from multiple friends and family, like emails or links to news clips or article right in a way that feels, you know, obviously I'm forever connected to her story, but also a little bit surreal that there's like still there. I guess there is forever an association between she and I. M.
00:29:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a right. Now it's become part of your story too. I always think that's so interesting, And I don't think it's accidental. You know, when like the right people are chosen for these sorts of things, you know, it's clear that you can carry that weight with you, you know, like you're able to give that grace and you know important. So I think that's not an accident.
00:29:48
Speaker 2: And I you know, like I said, even from when I found out I was going to be working on it, I feel incredibly honored to have been a piece of her story in terms of honoring her memory for her family in some way.
00:30:04
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, this has been such a wonderful conversation. You're just such a lovely spirit in general. I'm so pleased I got to meet you. Is there anything you're working on you want to tell us about, or you just working on the little ones in your house.
00:30:20
Speaker 2: Right right now? Being mom? Yeah, yeah, the little one about to join our family.
00:30:27
Speaker 1: Oh wow, that.
00:30:29
Speaker 2: Is right now. I feel like that's like my greatest rule.
00:30:34
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, yes, congratulations, thank you, thank you. Oh it's the best thing ever. And it does. I will say. I just was on a flight with two people not with them. They were sitting across from me, a couple with the little one who I would guess is like thirteen fourteen months. So that which is the most exhausting age on an airplane with a child, because they're like, oh I can I can move my body and walk.
00:31:07
Speaker 2: Around nails and not just a seatbelt. How dare you restrict? I watched these.
00:31:12
Speaker 1: Two and these two people were just like I could see the exhaustion in their faces, and I said, it really is exhausting, but it gets so much more exhausting in a different way. You know, it's not, but it is. It does get easier too. I mean, my daughter's will sleep away camp right now. Oh I badgine that, which is like crazy town. That's a whole other set of like and then like you miss them and then you went. But then I'm like, wow, there's so many hours in the day now, Like I just have so much time to get things done.
00:31:46
Speaker 2: I don't even know what that means yeah, right, it's very much appreciated, so.
00:31:50
Speaker 1: You'll you'll get there, but enjoy it all. I'll enjoy it all. You can watch the film Natalie Holloway. It is streaming online as well as as the sequel, Justice for Natalie Holloway. Amy, you are a pleasure, and thank you so much for talking with me today.
00:32:09
Speaker 2: Thank you
