The Social Rules Everyone Broke (And Why We’re All So Awkward Now)

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Speaker 1: No one has all the answers, but when we ask the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths, closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come together to challenge the status quo and our own ways of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not? And who says?
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Speaker 2: So?
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Speaker 1: Come curious, dig deep, and join the conversation. It's time to question everything. We need to talk about manners, because somewhere between group chat, chaos, reality TV, politics, speakerphone and an elevator and TikTok at full volume in the gym, I think that we've lost the plot. We talk a lot about how divided and awkward and disconnected things can feel right now, and I don't think there's one single reason. It's sort of a perfect storm right the political moment, the pandemic social media, and I feel like there's been this quiet collapse of the shared rules that once helped us coexist. Everyone insists on being authentic, but no one agrees anymore on what's rude, what's too much, what's too little?
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Speaker 3: What are the rules?
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Speaker 1: Which brings us to today's big question, is etiquette dead or did it just move online and get way more confusing. Today we're joined by two of the smartest voices in modern etiquette, Elaine Swan, who The New York Times calls the Emily Post of the digital age, and Sarah Jane Hoe, Netflix host and creator of the Mind Your Manners podcast. And Elaine and Sarah Jane Hoe say that etiquette has never been about being fake or fancy, and keeping up is more important now than ever.
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Speaker 4: I think etiquette definitely means making sure that in everything, when you say everything you do, that you respect yourself and respect others. And when you think about etiquette, it's so much about putting others at ease, But it's it's all over.
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Speaker 2: It depends on where we are right.
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Speaker 5: We're not saying that you should change your personality. We're saying you should just make microadjustments so that you put the group of people you're with at ease, which actually then makes you puts you at ease because then you feel like you belong and human belonging is the core of being human.
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Speaker 3: Oh.
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Speaker 1: I love that etiquette isn't about being prim or proper. I feel like it's about confidence it's about knowing what to do so you're not stuck in your head wondering did I do that wrong? So together, we're unpacking the hidden rules that still run our social lives and the simple cheat codes that might finally help you feel more confident, more at ease, and more at home in any room. So the question we're asking today is etiquette outdated? Or is it the exact thing we're missing right now? And I have a feeling you're going to want more of a Lane and Sarah Jane So know that they both have books. Elaine Swan's book is called Let Crazy Be Crazy, a Guide to Understanding Social Etiquette. She also has a course or a program that you can sign up for called the Swan School of Protocol. I'm actually thinking about doing it. I'm so into this stuff. And Sarah Jane Hoe has an amazing book as well, titled Mind Your Manners, How to Be Your Best Self in Any Situation and Beyond Etiquette. Sarah Jane is also the co founder and CEO of Antivorta, which is a modern intimate care brand rooted in traditional Chinese medicine and designed to help women feel comfortable and confident and at home in their own bodies. I really think it feels like a natural extension of her work because how we care for ourselves privately definitely shapes how we move through the world publicly. And I have links to everything in the show notes of the podcast. Okay, it's time to Question Everything with Sarah Jane Hoe and Elaine Swan.
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Speaker 3: Sarah and Elaine, welcome to Question Everything.
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Speaker 4: Hi.
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Speaker 1: So you are both etiquette experts, and I want to start with the sentiment that I think we all hear a lot these days people say etiquette is dead.
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Speaker 3: We're distracted, we're online, more, more.
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Speaker 1: Impatient, and we are definitely less polished than ever before.
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Speaker 3: Would you agree with that?
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Speaker 4: I do think it is challenging right now. I think our world is challenged right now and people can most certainly do that.
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Speaker 1: Are we seriously lacking etiquette or has it just changed into something unrecognizable?
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Speaker 5: Well, etiquette changes every fifteen years, anyway. I do think now it's changing every five years because of social media, and it's just a greater and great to speak.
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Speaker 1: I think both of your work shows that etiquette is really about how to make us all comfortable and about respect. What does it mean to each of you, Elaine, I think.
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Speaker 4: Etiquette definitely means making sure that in everything you'd say, everything you do, that you respect yourself, of course, and respect others. And when you think about etiquette, it's so much about putting others that eat. But it depends on where we are right. It could be in line, in the grocery store line or online. You know, we don't want to see all your icky stuff or what have you. And so it's really just thinking about how what you do and what you say impacts other people.
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Speaker 5: How about you, Saratane? Yeah, for me because I grew up amongst different cultures. I grew up in Hong Kong and I spend a long time in China and in the States. Etiquette is really contextual, so it really depends on who you're with, what country you're in, what the setting is. You could do the same thing but in two different cultures, and in one place it would be well mattered and the other place would be extremely.
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Speaker 3: Rude, so you're not in your head.
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Speaker 1: I think that's interesting because modern culture would say that we should just be our authentic selves everywhere we go, that code switching.
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Speaker 3: Is bad, and you're saying that sometimes code switching is okay.
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Speaker 2: It's a nuss.
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Speaker 4: You know when you think about you know, when you're in Rome, do as the Romans do, and that's exactly what we do.
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Speaker 2: And that's one way of respecting another culture.
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Speaker 5: I think the young generation now there's so much emphasis on I have to be mal authentic self, I have to be male authentic self. We're not saying that you should change your personality. We're saying you should just make microadjustments so that you put the group of people you're with at ease, which actually then puts you at ease because then you feel like you belong and human belonging is the core of being human.
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Speaker 2: And that's the thing about.
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Speaker 4: When you're in any situation and you feel confident, then you can be more present with the individuals and not be focused on okay, did I do that right?
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Speaker 2: Did I do this right?
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Speaker 4: So when you're doing this inside your head in that moment, then you are less present and that as connected with individuals and so you know what to do in any situation, you can feel more confident and present your best self.
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Speaker 3: How did you both come to this work?
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Speaker 2: For me? I started out by being a student of etiquette.
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Speaker 4: I am a first generation for an US citizen, and so it was important to my family for me to assimilate. If you will, you know, to know what to do in a variety of situation. So I started out as a student growing up in my life, I went through the whole pageant system as the fly attendant for ten years for Continental Airlines, and I took a training, the International Etiquette of Protocol training, which really just enlightened me and all the pagents of course, had an etiquette come upon it to it. Then I started volunteering to teach girls, and that volunteer opportunity turned into someone wanting to pay me, and I thought, well, this.
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Speaker 2: Is an excellent I did. It's an eight.
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Speaker 4: It's definitely something that's absolutely necessary and part of who I am as an individual. And so in two thousand and three I watched my etiquette consulting business and had been going ever since.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. For me, I grew up in Hong Kong and my mother really was my muse. She was an incredible hostes.
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Speaker 5: She loved hosting during bodies in the whole Christmas would be lots of people at our house, and I watched to create these really warm and magical moments through host deessiny and entertaining, and that was a lot of my childhood. Sadly, when I was twenty one, I lost her to live acts and my life really changed because my father didn't entertain in the same way when he was alone. My life became very lonely. Holidays became very lowly. I didn't even like to go back to Hang Kong because it reminded me of how.
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Speaker 2: Long I was.
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Speaker 5: And then in my mid twenties, when I was at Harvard Business School during my two year MBA, I was thinking of just business ideas and what I could do in mainland China, and I thought, wow, you know, China has been through so much change in such a short amount of time and a lot of wealth who was created very quickly. But people want the confidence and grace to move through the world. And so I thought, what if I bring the concept of a Swiss finishing school.
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Speaker 2: To mainland China, not for children but for ladies.
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Speaker 5: And because my mother was such an influence on me, I feel the critical person of family is the mother.
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Speaker 2: She raises the children.
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Speaker 5: So that's why we focused on mother's yummy mummies, I like to say, And so I did that I started that in twenty thirteen in Beijing, and then a few years later Netflix heard about it turned it into a show called Mind Your Matters that came out in twenty twenty two, and then the rest is history.
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Speaker 1: And why is Swiss finishing school? Are they the like epitome of etiquette?
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Speaker 5: Well, of course in America you have Charms School right in the South, and pageants too, But I always just felt that Switzerland really has been the bastion of finishing ladies, even until pretty recently. A couple decades ago, women couldn't go to university, so they would, especially women from good families that be homeschooled, and then they would be sent to a finishing school in Switzerland to finish their education where they would love how to be a hostess, the hostessing, how to entertain, how to iron a shirt, how to make all these things, how to greet anyone from a prince to a normal guest. And I just wanted to go to the source and bring that to China.
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Speaker 4: You know, I think it's interesting that you share this about the finishing school, because when you hear in the US, the minute you mentioned etiquette, people go, oh, my gosh, such a lost art and the idea this is what they have in their mind is the finishing school. But the key and when you really start talking to people who are here in this country and in different pockets, most especially as you mentioned the South, you're fund that it's not necessarily finishing school. Sometimes it's charm school, sometimes it's Cotillion. It has not gone away, And the idea of folks presenting themselves in a manner that is acceptable to the individual, theayer in the presence of me.
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Speaker 2: Has never gone away. It's not a lost start. It's still here.
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Speaker 4: It's just how we practice it and how the information has passed along. I think that's why I think it's important the work that we're doing now is because we're passing it on in a modern perspective and letting people know that it's not just about kings and queens and curtsy and things like that here in the US.
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Speaker 3: Completely agree.
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Speaker 1: I think that somehow etiquette has become related to inauthenticity or putting on a show, when really it's about like creating comfort and ease in relationships and connections. So I think etiquette will never go out of style.
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Speaker 4: No, I mean, any pop culture thing you see that happens the minute someone gets out of line, whether it's housewives, fossy wine at each other's faces or what have you. The first me to do is it it's not proper etiquette. Everyone says that. I mean, whether it's comedians, sports figures. So for the minute someone wants an individual to get in line and pay attention and conduct themselves in a proper manner, the first.
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Speaker 2: Thing they say is etiquette. So it's not going to go anywhere.
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Speaker 1: It's just here to say, how do you think the pandemic has affected our social skills?
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Speaker 4: The pandemic is really packed in our social skills, especially our younger generation, the folks who.
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Speaker 2: Were kind of coming up through that.
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Speaker 4: So it really has impacted people in a negative way. But there's so much good that has come from it in terms of communication and connecting with one another. But the social skills can use some sharpening. Getting out and getting in front of people again and talking and communicating in a more again authentic manner was a little bit.
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Speaker 2: Lost, and so we just need to ginger that a little bit. Now.
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Speaker 3: Is it like if you don't use it, you lose it takes the thing I.
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Speaker 4: Think people kind of got lazy. You know, it's easy to say, okay, let me wear the lounge wear, and I'm okay behind the screen, but then once you come outside, the loungewear is cute.
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Speaker 3: Oh I feel personally attactilate.
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Speaker 2: No, no, I love lounge we love lines. And now the athleasu're wear and so forth. Wear that when you fly, just not your pajamts. Right, So that's that's sort of faith.
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Speaker 5: I always say, what we really lost is the human connection. And I see that even in my nineteen year old son. I think the kids that were at school, they were really mostly and touched.
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Speaker 2: And now when you.
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Speaker 5: See teenagers sometimes they can't even look an adult in the eye and have a matual conversation and they're hiding behind their screens, and that to me is really problematic.
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Speaker 3: Why do you think people behave worse online?
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Speaker 1: I've been thinking about this a lot, because there is an element of anonymity, but some people do it and they.
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Speaker 3: Have their photo, their name, their company profile.
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Speaker 5: I think it's a lack of accountability. It's almost again because they feel disconnected from people. Because you're behind the screen. Then you feel I can say and I think I can let out my worst side, and it's very.
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Speaker 2: Scary, and it's that accountability.
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Speaker 4: It's kind of like when maybe there's two people right, here's someone that's kind of breaking up a fight in the person crop because there's someone that's kind of holding them back. But then let that person step to the side and they'll somehow calm down. And so that's what they're doing behind this thing, and they can do this, you know, without any real repercussions in that moment, and I think it gives people a false sense of security, liquid courage.
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Speaker 5: You know.
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Speaker 4: Used to just be outdranking and people would get out of hand, but now they're at home and no one's going to check them in that moment.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're right. I mean I see it even with politician.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, what happ does statesmanship? We don't have statesmanship anything, not anymore. Statesmen are not acting like statesmen.
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Speaker 1: They're not that's a good point. What do you think the cultural repercussions are of that? Because I think a lot of people feel like, I don't like how this politician acts, but it's about their policies. What does statesmanhood actually mean?
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Speaker 4: So I think what we're seeing is when we talk about our politicians, for example, they think that it's all right to kind of follow the leader of follow this movement that's going along. But in the end, you want to think about how is history going to treat you when you are speaking.
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Speaker 2: Everything you say, your words are.
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Speaker 4: Creating issues, and so whether you have policies that are really helping folks, it's your words that will be humored by It's every thing we say online, it's everything that we say on camera that is the thing that's going to stick most. And I think this is where people are kind of forgetting about that. They're so in the moment right now, they want to get their point across, but they're not recognizing the history they are making.
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Speaker 5: And a statesman or a politicians representing the country, right, So first of all, he's the leader, he's the head of the country, and he's representing the country.
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Speaker 2: So if he or she acts a certain way that people will follow. It's like a parent and child.
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Speaker 5: And so it's very interesting to see, especially since I spend my time between two of the most different countries in the world, China and the US. Oh my gosh, you had my husband all his businesses in China, so I spend half my time there, and I see the way our statesmen are head of countries has stays act and it's very entertaining that it gives food for thought.
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Speaker 1: We talked a little bit about modern etiquette. What do you think the role of etiquette is in today's society.
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Speaker 5: I think historically etiquette has changed every generation, so every fifteen years you need a refresh and update. I think with the advent of social media, and by the way, I went to high school with Mark Zuckerberg, he was a year ahead of me a boarding I went to Phillip s Exter Academy and the name Facebook it was a colloquial term for our school photo address book, but everyone called it the Facebook. And so it was fascinating to know him in high school, to the who he was, and then to see him go to Harvard and then create the Facebook, which then first went to the ivy leagues, and then I went to George shown So then followed by Georgehown, and then follow by all the other schools. It was fascinating can change the world in that way, and with social media, I would say now that etiquette changes every five years, and the curb is becoming steeper and steeper, and it's hard for me to catch up with, you know, mynage stepson and the things he's doing and the sline they're using. So etiquette really is changing more and more quickly now in modern society.
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Speaker 2: So when you say what is the role of it?
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Speaker 5: Every couple of years, it's like, okay, we have to revisit, what are the roles?
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Speaker 2: What are the new rules of etiquette?
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Speaker 4: But the thing that what we're hearing in this moment and what you're sharing, is that it's not going anywhere, So it will always be part of society. It will just shift and change society modernizing. I mean, I can remember when I first started in this industry, we were telling people do not take your cell phone into a job interview.
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Speaker 2: And read it in the car.
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Speaker 4: But now you know you'd have to prive that thing out of somebody's hands to do that, or not into a restaurant or what have you. So it's shifted people taking pictures of their meal and their food and things like that that didn't exist, and so at people will always be part of our society. It's just that the new offices surrounding they will sit as a society changes, but the poor value will always stay there, and that poor value of respect for yourself and for others is not going to go.
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Speaker 3: Do you see it as a form of power.
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Speaker 2: I think it can be used as power.
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Speaker 5: In fact, in my book, I say very upfront, I have no interest in being holier than thou and telling you how to be a moral person.
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Speaker 2: What I am giving you.
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Speaker 5: Is a toolkit to do everything that you want to be able to do. Achieve everything you want to be able to achieve, Meet everybody you want to be able to meet, form a relationship, deepen a relationship in a short amount of time. Whatever you want to do, and power can be part of that if you want, but to do it with grace and with alignment.
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Speaker 4: That's powerful, you know, when you take back your own power and say okay, I now have the tools.
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Speaker 1: That's interesting because I guess my thought was some people benefit from knowing the rules of everybody.
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Speaker 2: If you know the rules, every benefits you benefit. I mean, you have one authorship, right, and that is you're already elevating your sets in.
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Speaker 3: That moment, right.
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Speaker 1: But I like the idea that it's really about your own power. It's not yielding power over over others. No, it's yours. Yes, that's a cool way of looking at it. Who do you think pays the biggest social price for bad manners?
00:17:48
Speaker 3: Men or women?
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Speaker 5: You're in the US, I think men get away with a lot everywhere, not just the US as well.
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Speaker 2: They get away with ten times over.
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Speaker 4: Women could say and do the same thing and and we would just be fied over it.
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Speaker 2: But that's in everything.
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Speaker 3: I read a book from a historian.
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Speaker 1: It was really talking about poverty, and he was saying that he felt like most bigotry, racism, homophobia was actually rooted in classed divisiveness.
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Speaker 3: I don't believe that's totally true, but I do think.
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Speaker 1: There's an element of it that we don't talk about when it comes to etiquette.
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Speaker 2: From a class perspective. I mean meaning that there's a class that we think it's so sensitive. Yeah, it is. It's sensitive.
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Speaker 4: And I think people have always thought, and they still do, they think etiquette is something that is for the elite. And that's something that I write about in my Yes, this is for every person. It's just information, it's just tools to help you navigate life. And so with that you will have the ability to read in and out through different classes of folks and still present yourself well and be accepted as well.
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Speaker 3: Sarah, you wrote something in your book I want to quote back to you.
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Speaker 2: Guys.
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Speaker 1: You write, we humans are remarkably bad at determining what actually makes us happy? What do we get so wrong about our desires? And I was confused, how does etiquette reveal.
00:19:07
Speaker 2: My own personal journey? And I turned forty this year. I feel like it's actually my best decade.
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Speaker 5: I mentioned my best decade yet, because I spent the first half of my life not really knowing what made me happy, and not being in my most aligned self, I would say, and not thinking about the way I think. There was a lot of conscious thought going on in my younger years as there is now in my you know, middle aged years.
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Speaker 3: Carl Jung says that all the time.
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Speaker 5: Yes, And in fact, when I turned forty last Thursday, I posted a call young quote.
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Speaker 2: When who says life.
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Speaker 5: Really just begins at forty? Everything before that is just beseuch. So going back to.
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Speaker 3: Your question, which was about desires.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, you need to think about the way you think, right, that's metic cognition, and so many of us are not coming out of ourselves to reflect on ourselves that way, and as a result, we won't truly know ourselves.
00:19:57
Speaker 2: Well.
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Speaker 1: It's interesting the way you write about etiquette is almost like it's cognitive behavioral therapy.
00:20:02
Speaker 2: Yes, it is, and I say that in the book.
00:20:04
Speaker 3: Can you expand on that?
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Speaker 5: One of my favorite courses in college was anthropology, which is a study of human behavior, and I believe that we as humans we move through microcultures, multiple microcultures every single day, whether it's our family, work, different groups of friends, or different microcultures, even different departments in a company like accounting is really different from advertizing, right, that microculture is really different, and we are adjusting ourselves ever so slightly in each different microculture and again not losing our personality, but just making the people in that microculture comfortable around us, which makes ourselves more comfortable. In anthropology, the goal is to go native, right, So we say you're in the field, which is when you're observing, and every time I go to a new microculture, I'm thinking what are they wearing, what slang are they using, what volume are they speaking at? Right, and adjusting myself and then ultimately you want to be able to go native where people think that you really are one of them. You feel that you're one of them. So this is actually how I approach etiquette. And again it's because I've lived in such different cultures. I'm so comfortable in the States and I'm so comfortable in China.
00:21:07
Speaker 1: Eleane, in your book, you write that because etiquette has evolved, we need to have a standard that represents what our world looks like today. I'm curious, if you could go granular, what do you think needs to evolve about today's etiquette.
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Speaker 4: I think to your fact where you said it can change as the years go on, and I think what needs to evolve in this particular moment is for people to really grasp the way we communicate online. That's the portion of it that needs to evolve. I believe we know for a fact that we're leaving a digital footprint everywhere we go, whether it's online or through instant messaging or dams or what have you.
00:21:42
Speaker 2: And so the portion of it that.
00:21:44
Speaker 4: Needs to evolve is we need to infuse more respect and consideration for others as we're communicating, as we're leaving this trail along with this, I feel like we still have not gotten to that point yet. We're still willing nearly wolding out and people aren't as oh if they can be in the social media or digital communicating aspect.
00:22:05
Speaker 1: And hearing you both say that etiquette hasn't really transcended or gotten to social media yet. Do you think that it can transcend cultures or does each culture have a totally different set of rules.
00:22:19
Speaker 5: Let me give an example, and I recently did a post about this on my Instagram feed. In the Western world, when you toast, you raise your gloss high, and that's your celebration and confidence, and you raise the high way you toast. In China, if you raise your gloss high when you're toasting, that is the most defensive thing you can do, because you're telling the other person I'm better than you. And so in fact, when people toast in China, they lower that gloss to show humility. So, Eleine, if you and I are toasting, it's actually a raise to the bottom to see.
00:22:46
Speaker 2: You drop that gloss to the table.
00:22:50
Speaker 5: Let's say, if there's a clear boss or subordinate, or an older person in a younger person, then the older person would go down, but then just stop everything so slightly.
00:22:57
Speaker 2: And because I'm younger, I would bring class down.
00:23:00
Speaker 1: It reflects the cultural norms and expectations of that stage or country.
00:23:06
Speaker 5: Right, So even though they're interpreted differently, I do think they come from the same place, which is of consideration and respect.
00:23:13
Speaker 2: So even though there are very.
00:23:15
Speaker 5: Different etiquettes for different parts of the world, the intention is.
00:23:19
Speaker 1: Do you think there's a world in which because we have so many different cultures in America, that we don't know what to do with each other because we all come from different schools of thought.
00:23:29
Speaker 4: Not necessarily so, because there's that, But then you have to think community. This is the backbone of our country is community, and the communities that thrive and are growing in our rich A lot of folks don't look like each other, but that's your neighbor, this is your friend, and we see the kids in soil words. So I don't think so, I don't think it's that separate here because of the community aspect of it. This nation is a melting pot of different cultures and so forth. And I think when the cultures come together, when people human beings come together and they see, I may see how much more they have in common with each other and separate, that's where the community course comes in and then when community happens, then respect and consideration will follow.
00:24:10
Speaker 5: I think that is the ideal. Although because I've lived in different cities in the States. So my first job out of Georgetown, I was of annw York City doing investment banking.
00:24:17
Speaker 2: I was an analyst.
00:24:18
Speaker 5: And in New York the first thing you do when you meet somebody's everybody asked, so what do you do?
00:24:23
Speaker 2: What do you do?
00:24:24
Speaker 5: And in any other part of America that's considered very rude. And I've had other friends who say, gosh, yeah, you know, can you put with friends from the South, friends from the Midwest who were in New York and just found that excessively or met in New Yorker right and New Yorker, came to Chicago, or came to Charlotte or whatever, and just straight away, you know, at a cocktail or, friendly gathered, so what do you do? And people found that very offensive. So I think it's also very entertaining when they're next.
00:24:46
Speaker 4: Saying, yeah, here in La everybody, where do you live exactly? It's true, that's funny like that.
00:24:53
Speaker 1: There's also something and I don't mean to take this too deep, but when I think about and I wasn't alive, so I just read about the fifties and sixties. There was a want to be American. So no matter where you came from, you were Patient American or Chinese American, or African American or Jewish American.
00:25:14
Speaker 3: Whatever it was.
00:25:16
Speaker 1: And because I think people in America don't align with some of the ideals of America anymore, we've dropped that and we just want to be that.
00:25:27
Speaker 3: First word, whatever that is.
00:25:28
Speaker 1: And so to me, there's like a cohesiveness that's missing in etiquette.
00:25:33
Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It's just something I seek.
00:25:36
Speaker 5: Would you say that it's because all countries becoming more divided?
00:25:40
Speaker 4: It is, But that's been the plan, the leadership that we had. The plan is to divide our country. The deep state, Yeah, think about it. I mean, for me, I was a flight attendant when the September eleventh, the tragedy during septemper that could happened, and I was based in New York at the time. And for me, when I think back about during that time, everybody who was our brother, everybody was our sister, didn't matter what we look like. We were all Americans and everyone was so concerned for one another. And I think we see that in so many cultures when there's tragedy, people just become people.
00:26:14
Speaker 2: Like the fires in La.
00:26:15
Speaker 3: Yes, everyone people were really uniting.
00:26:18
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I don't think it's gone. I don't it's disappeared.
00:26:21
Speaker 4: It's just unfortunately, folks shift and change when there's pain.
00:26:25
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:26:25
Speaker 5: I remember reading a quote said, as humans, there's enlightenment when we experience steep love or when we experience deep suffering.
00:26:32
Speaker 3: I want to talk about etiquette and gender, Okay a little bit.
00:26:35
Speaker 1: Elaaney wrote something in your book that ladies are always first, and in a gender fluid world, how do you.
00:26:42
Speaker 3: Think we should think about etiquette between genders. Do those rules still.
00:26:46
Speaker 4: Serve We do still serve us, I think, especially when you're talking about close personal relationships.
00:26:51
Speaker 5: Right.
00:26:51
Speaker 4: So, yeah, if it's a personal relationship and it's two individuals, regardless of what your gender is, and the relationship you have, Let's say, for example, think of it as a right you're dancing like the tangle, there's always a leader and someone follows.
00:27:04
Speaker 2: Right, there's one person that's kind of leading the other, and then.
00:27:06
Speaker 4: So forth, and so as far as any kid is concerned, you can do the same thing. It doesn't matter your gender, just as far as your relationship is concerned. Whoever kind of does the leading would be the one to open the door, and the one who does the following would be the one to walk through the door.
00:27:21
Speaker 3: Well, what if I'm out with friends and there's men and women in.
00:27:24
Speaker 4: The business arena? Chivalry is gender free, so there's no gender. So if you're out with your buddies for launching what have you, it doesn't matter who goes through the door first. That's in the business arena and that's the standard. But if you're out with friends and it's a bunch of girlfriends, whoever gets through the door first opens the door. Make sure they hold it for the next week.
00:27:41
Speaker 1: And if I'm with friends and it's men and women, that the men hold the door for the I had.
00:27:47
Speaker 2: To do that.
00:27:47
Speaker 4: So good idea for men to practice chivalry to cater to the women he's with, and they don't have to be in.
00:27:54
Speaker 2: A personal romantic relationship to be hind You.
00:27:57
Speaker 5: Know what's interesting is that all this focus on the woman is the weaker sex, so the man lets her go first.
00:28:03
Speaker 2: In China, no husband or man would let the wife.
00:28:08
Speaker 5: Because of Confucianism and Confucius values, there's also a leader and follower. But we say, for example, parents are heavens and children of the earth, and the clear packing of family is a man and then the wife or you know, the sons and then the daughters. So even when I'm with my husband in China, he walks first, I walk a few steps behind him. Cuban's door, he walks through first, he leaves it open for me, and then I go behind him. And actually, if he did it the other way would be confusing.
00:28:33
Speaker 3: Do you guys do it differently when you're in la together?
00:28:36
Speaker 5: Not really, because my husband doesn't even speak English, so he's very Chinese, okay. And so in China all men will just walk ahead of their wives or girlfriends, and all the wives and girlfriends.
00:28:46
Speaker 2: They don't feel that it's demeaning or anyeah.
00:28:48
Speaker 5: They want him as the leader because that's how it's been for over two thousand years in Confucianism and how China has been. And I was thinking about this because I like to think about the way.
00:28:57
Speaker 2: I think.
00:28:58
Speaker 5: I really feel that in the West it's because of the True Church, and maybe it's a little conspiracy, but I think it's also most a way to control women. I mean, listen, I love it one amount. It was a door okay, but because women are controlled by men in the West, it's a way of almost overcompensating, you know, to say like, oh, well, women are the weaker sex, so okay, we're going to let them walk through the door bus to let them feel like.
00:29:20
Speaker 4: Some can see it from that perspective, but I think some of it, you know, stems from his chivalry and the act of being kind and gracious towards a woman. I definitely agree with you in terms of the control in so many environments because then we start thinking about these kind of microaggressions, right that take place. But so much of it stemmed, especially here in the West, it's stemmed from the gentleman call or the gentleman doing they You have to think about how some of the stuff got here to the US. Again, we're melting pots, so so many things are brought over from the Europe and fir standards.
00:29:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's part of the reason that I wanted the two of you here together, because I do think that different cultures bring such interesting expectations.
00:29:58
Speaker 4: Well, here's what I love is that when you said when you're here that your husband still watched the door first because he's Chinese. But the thing that's great is this is their culture within themselves. This is their culture and their family, and that is acceptable and that is what's right.
00:30:13
Speaker 2: And here's the thing.
00:30:14
Speaker 5: If my husband, if were entertaining other friends of international friends or Western friends, he lets them move through folks, so he will also adjusts. So it's so contextual at the end of the day, you know, I mean, my husband were Chinese, couple, were Chinese friendly.
00:30:26
Speaker 4: And that's the thing that's so wonderful about you know, understanding that within the confines of the individual home and the family and the relationship the community, that all blows down and whatever you're doing in that aspect as far as etiquette is concerned, is unique to that nucleus affair.
00:30:56
Speaker 1: I want to say something that the podcast guests are going to laugh at because it's embarrassing that I even know this. But Justin Bieber and Hailey Bieber posted something that I thought was so beautiful.
00:31:08
Speaker 3: They had a framed list of the rules of their house.
00:31:11
Speaker 1: Oh and I'm like paraphrasing, thank you, but it's like the ten almost like their commandments, and it's we are kind whatever it is in our family and Eline, I'm kind of hearing from you that like, while we're out in the world, we have to subscribe to the etiquette.
00:31:28
Speaker 3: In the world and in that culture. But in our home we can make our own doctrine.
00:31:33
Speaker 2: You can't.
00:31:34
Speaker 4: And that's what's going to help your marriage thrive, your family strive, all of the above, and so in your family unit, figure out what works best for you. One thing I want to say, more importantly than anything, as far as Etiqutte is concerned, it's not something that you turn on and off, where oh, when I go into this space, I'm going to behave this way. It should be something that's innate. You should just always be thinking, how can I may make sure that when people leave my presence, how did I make them feel whether you're at home, at work, at the grocery store, at the movie theater. If we look at things from that perspective, they were not kind of coach switching and turning off and on, because I definitely don't believe in that. So, for example, in my house and my husband and I just we did a couple's podcasts together and someone asked.
00:32:21
Speaker 2: Well, how does it feel living with her? Seeing like sheesus?
00:32:24
Speaker 4: You know, my ausband says, you know what, because he's a brock, and he goes, no, Actually, I love it. I love the way my wife serves everything and she puts everything out together. I eat the linen halkins all the time, you know, Like he enjoys this sort of thing that's in our thing. So I'm not one way outside in a different way at home. I just like these things because my first chore growing up was to set the table. Oh the great mom had me setting the table and that was the thing. And I learned everything from my mom, everything in terms of posting and treating people and so so I took all that into my marriage and he likes it.
00:32:57
Speaker 2: You know what.
00:32:58
Speaker 1: I think it's challenging in today's society to say the mom is the center of the house, because there's a lot of conversation rightly so, about parenthood being split equally at home, but in practicality, at least the way I grew up, like, the mom really sets.
00:33:14
Speaker 3: The tone and expectations. Maybe fathers are doing that more so nowadays.
00:33:19
Speaker 4: I think the woman absolutely sets the tone for the home, I believe so I think energy that we have as women, we set the tone that the household moves through us. And you have the power to make your home something that is inviting, that is pleasant to come to, that is warm and memorable and so forth, or to make it somewhere where the man is sitting outside in the driveway thinking oh gosh, okay, let me get it together and try to get it and thinking that he's going to go, you know, into this environment that's not pleasant. I think the woman does and we don't even have to say anything. And the tone in the household and ship.
00:33:57
Speaker 5: I believe that there's a Chinese thing from Confucia say, it's a rule. It says the husband is external and the wife is internal, and it's just a very clear directive. My dad even told me, he said, don't bother your husband about that because business affairs are external and you just focus on you know, you're internal.
00:34:12
Speaker 3: But you have a lot of external business affairs.
00:34:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's different when it's related to the home and family, right. I think what you're thinking about is does he help do things and do stuff? That's one thing, But in terms of the.
00:34:23
Speaker 4: Tone, the spirit of the home when there's a man of leaders in the home. Yeah, he leads the home, but she's the one that's going to make that home shift or not.
00:34:35
Speaker 2: If the woman is not in.
00:34:36
Speaker 4: A good mood, she doesn't even have to say anything, but the tone that she has, the energy that she has, going to set the tone. And it's nothing to do with whether or not he's helping the wash dishes.
00:34:45
Speaker 3: And we're in, and what do you think about people pleasing and etiquette? What's the line?
00:34:50
Speaker 2: I think yourself that's it.
00:34:53
Speaker 1: Sometimes what I really want to say and what I think someone deserves is not the proper thing.
00:35:00
Speaker 4: But here's the thing, and I think this is where it's important for people to recognize that you can say anything to anybody. It's just said what you say, when you say it, where you say it. So if someone that is not being so nice and you need to call them to the carpet, you can do that. There's no etiquette thing that says that you cannot set boundaries for yourself, that you cannot call people out, that you cannot you tell people when they've gone too far, or tell them no, I'd rather not talk about that, or that's not something i'd like to talk about.
00:35:29
Speaker 2: That's something that's personal between me and my husband and I'd rather not share it with you. So you can do that anybody.
00:35:35
Speaker 4: You don't have to set it off and crust people out, but you can do it. People think that polite equals pushover, and so that you have to be polite and you have to be demir and etiquette means you can't say anything or you can't hurt anyone's feelings back No, if someone steps on a line, correct them, you can.
00:35:51
Speaker 2: Do it a nice way.
00:35:52
Speaker 3: I think there's like a modern etiquette thing here.
00:35:55
Speaker 1: Your toor is changing because there is the idea of polite and push show over is a false equivalent.
00:36:02
Speaker 5: One thing that happened to me recently and it's something that I realized again it's me being forty plus. That I realized is I asked a friend to show up for me, and this friend was unable to just for this incident. And I understood why this friend wasn't able to and the old me because being raised in a very strict Chinese household, you're almost conditioned to people please. And the old me what I like, Oh, that's okay, don't worry about it. But then the forty year old me was like, you know what, I understand why this friend construpt for me in that way, and that's I understand, that's okay, but I feel sad, and I'm going to tell this friend that I feel sad and that's okay.
00:36:39
Speaker 2: And so I wrote back and I said, that makes.
00:36:40
Speaker 5: Me sad, and so honoring my own feelings was really important to me, which is something I didn't do before, because before my younger self, I was so eager to please and make everybody think, oh, it's okay, but kay, that.
00:36:52
Speaker 2: Can be okay, but I can also express that I'm not okay. That's right.
00:36:55
Speaker 4: In my book, I talk about receiving an apology when someone apologized to you. Let them, don't interrupt, do not tell them it's okay, because it's likely not. They're apologizing for something, So allow the person to speak and simply say thank you, I appreciate your apology. Don't tell people it's okay when they do bad stuff.
00:37:14
Speaker 1: To you, okay smiling at strangers, Sarah Jane, I read that you say that the one etiquette rule that you wish everyone knew was to smile reflexively all of the pieces of advice that you could offer.
00:37:26
Speaker 3: Why is that so important to you?
00:37:28
Speaker 5: I also say do that especially within your community. Your new community can be your school, or your office, or the coffee shop you go to on a regular basis, or your neighbors. I say the one place you should not do it is on the subway.
00:37:37
Speaker 1: Can It's say, I'm a really smiling person and it's gotten me in trouble. Men take it the wrong way sometimes they do.
00:37:43
Speaker 2: But hey, if somebody thinks you like them, that can only make them like you.
00:37:47
Speaker 3: Right, Sometimes I don't want them.
00:37:48
Speaker 1: I like you.
00:37:52
Speaker 5: Yeah.
00:37:52
Speaker 2: I think smiling is.
00:37:53
Speaker 5: Just such an easy way to feed positive energy. And when you smile, some people will smile that it will bring joy to others. That'll bring joy better to you. So it's just the easiest free thing you can do make your life better.
00:38:05
Speaker 2: Oh I love that.
00:38:06
Speaker 3: Yes, Is there one that lives in your heart in that way?
00:38:09
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I would say, yeah, definitely smiling.
00:38:12
Speaker 4: Here's the thing I would say, and I think this goes hand in hand, is to then go beyond that smile and say hello, a simple hello. When you're traveling and you get in the elevator and you're going up the elevator, down the elevator and hello, a good morning, greets somebody. And here's why, because of the divisiveness that we're experiencing in our country right now. Some individuals may be from one part of the country and you may live in another, and they may not ever really come in contact with someone like you. But that one moment in the elevator, when you look at them and say hello or good morning and what have you can shift their thought process in terms of what they've been told about who you are as an individual.
00:38:52
Speaker 2: Or a race, or a group or a community and so forth.
00:38:54
Speaker 1: And so I would say hello, I love that one so much. As a Midwesterner, we are expected to do that.
00:39:01
Speaker 5: And a thought that comes in, actually, so, well, my Midwestern friends are all solid, they're solid people.
00:39:06
Speaker 3: And well, man, I agree, we're solid. Thank you for saying that.
00:39:10
Speaker 1: I think that a comment I've gotten often is that people will tell me that I'm more when I take Sarah Jane's thought process of thinking about how I'm thinking. The reason I think that is is because I acknowledge someone as a human being. It's so simple. It's just saying, like, I see, I see you. Yeah, it's just a quick hello, like when you're at a party. I think people are so nervous to say hello because they don't want to be the first one and the simple Hey, nice to see you.
00:39:37
Speaker 4: How are I have this thing where I talk about that ten five someone's tend feet away from you and you happen to make eye contact. You can just smile, but if they're within five feet, then that's when you should speak.
00:39:45
Speaker 2: Man, you make eye contact. But when people get in the elevator, they're trying not to make eye contacts. Other people pull them in. But I think it's so important to our society today.
00:39:53
Speaker 1: Did you see someone in an elevator or in a space and they don't look like they want to acknowledge you, would you recommend that we still acknowledge them?
00:40:00
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yeah, absolutely, because sometimes you never go shy. Yeah, they may be shy.
00:40:05
Speaker 4: Sometimes people are internalizing whatever's happening in their life. They could be experiencing something detrimental and you're hello, It could be just the thing that needed in that moment and with their spirits.
00:40:15
Speaker 1: I was thinking about first impressions and I read that word judgement under two minutes, and it takes eight good moments to recover from a battle.
00:40:24
Speaker 3: That is a big discrepancy.
00:40:26
Speaker 1: What's the one thing people should never get wrong in a first impression?
00:40:29
Speaker 5: There are lots of things you could get wrong. Yeah, from the way you dress to not smiling. Oh yeah, that's one of my pet peeves. Well, let's say I'm meeting someone for the first time and I say I'm Sarah Jane Hoe and the other post goes, I'm Sarah Jane.
00:40:43
Speaker 4: There's so many things that both come along, So get it right. Fire books, yeah, free stuff, and make a good impression.
00:41:03
Speaker 1: Is there an etiquette rule that you wish more people knew or follow here in America?
00:41:09
Speaker 5: I have one. I see this so often, and it's not just the States, it's really the whole world. Okay, when hosts are organized in a minute and they don't introduce guests to each other, it sounds so easy, but actually, think of the lost guest together you went to a lot of people don't do it. A lot of hosts will greet their guests, they had their guests, and then they'll greet the next guest, and then they'll leave that lost guest just kind of hanging in and for a supremely confident guest, they'll be fine.
00:41:32
Speaker 2: But most people are not supremely confident.
00:41:34
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:41:35
Speaker 5: So, anytime you organize an event, whether it's a business cocktail or a reception or a birthday, I will at least introduce a new guest to three to four other guests and introduce them not just saying their name, but saying where they're from or an interesting factoid about them where they can immediately strike up a conversation, and then I move on to take care of the next guest.
00:41:55
Speaker 1: Interviewed a wedding planner, like a very well known one, who said that one of her rules is similar, and she said, people will feel connected if you go out of your way to say thank you for coming. I was really wanting to introduce you to this person. Remind me if I don't do it right away, you know, just to know that they've been thought of. Yeah.
00:42:13
Speaker 4: Well, so, if we're talking about kind of the hosting environment, I think one thing that folks should really know is if you are invited to someone's home and the evening or afternoon or what have you over and oftentimes people.
00:42:25
Speaker 2: Will offer to help clean up or what have you.
00:42:27
Speaker 4: If the host says no, thank you, then keep your hands off their stuff and at the kitchen and out of the kitchen and stay there. I think people really need to know that, because I have so many folks who will say no, my family, we have to help and so forth.
00:42:40
Speaker 2: But the thing about it for.
00:42:41
Speaker 4: A host, it gives us so much joy to see our guest and join themselves kicking back, relaxing and not in the kitchen doing things. And then of course MENI hosts, they have a certain way that they like things. So when someone tells you no, mind your business.
00:42:57
Speaker 3: What's an outdated rule role.
00:43:00
Speaker 2: Kind of what we're talking about as far as gender is concern.
00:43:02
Speaker 4: One thing, you have to wait for the man to extend his hand first for the lady shake's hands. Another thing that's outdated is when a woman announces her wedding or engagement yesteryear, many years ago.
00:43:16
Speaker 2: You should not tell her congratulations.
00:43:18
Speaker 4: They would say, tell them best wish it since dead, because congratulations was almost like she caught the man.
00:43:23
Speaker 2: She did something. But that's something that's happened. She can rasually be met.
00:43:27
Speaker 5: Yeah, congratulate the man and not the I would say handwritten thank you notes. It's lovely if you can do it, but you don't have to do anymore. An email or a text is just as effective, you know, a thoughtful email or to say, oh the buthday if you gave me was so thoughtful. Then to say maybe like why you got to slip pool or how you can use it. That's perfectly fine.
00:43:48
Speaker 2: It's a good thing. And yes, the handwritten note is going sicing on the Yeah, it's the icing on the cake. Now. It's the thing, especially if you've mail. If you get something in the.
00:43:57
Speaker 4: Mail and you see a hand written one hundred percent, the email might get pushed down.
00:44:03
Speaker 2: The text message might be push down. I would say definitely the important.
00:44:08
Speaker 4: Thank you And when you have a very close relationship with a person and congratulatory notes and so forth, try not to connect with that on social media. And the reason why is because if there's a lot of them, it gets pushed down. And so your best girlfriend, she made miss your congratulations, So send that text message or write email or something like that so.
00:44:27
Speaker 2: That way she gets it.
00:44:29
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about when you said that my grandmother is ninety and she will send a thank you note for to thank you.
00:44:34
Speaker 3: No, like there are so many steps in exchange. You're right, it is outdated.
00:44:39
Speaker 1: Okay, what's the right way to handle a disagreement at a family dinner table?
00:44:45
Speaker 5: I like to make a joke out of it. So I'll be like, okay, boys, take the off line. And then what I do is I immediately change a topic without skipping a beat. I'll be like, guys, we got the turkey from this? You know, posture and organic bomb?
00:44:59
Speaker 2: What do you think of?
00:45:00
Speaker 5: Or maybe aw someone else who's not involved in an open question? Right, But it require several sentences to ansa so it's so seamless, like you kind of checked them. But then immediately just change a conversation and nobody even noticing it.
00:45:12
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:45:12
Speaker 4: I mentioned that in my book as one of the prep things to do as a host is to start thinking in your mind, what can I talk about with the folks who are coming? Okay, so I know Aunt Susan, she went here, so I can ask her about her vacation, and so you have a nice little treasure from things, so that this way, if you need to shift the conversation, you can do so easily.
00:45:31
Speaker 1: But I was growing up, my parents would be in the front seat, my brother and I were in the back, and my mom would always say, Okay, what are our prompts tonight?
00:45:38
Speaker 3: People could say it's premeditated, but I.
00:45:40
Speaker 2: Actually love it. It's freezing on your radar, so cute.
00:45:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, so like I always think about that. Okay, tipping.
00:45:46
Speaker 1: When it comes to tipping in twenty twenty six, is twenty percent still the standard for dining out.
00:45:53
Speaker 2: It says I received good service.
00:45:55
Speaker 5: It's interesting because in Asia we don't tip, and in China it's considered offensive to tip.
00:45:59
Speaker 2: It's like a lot face. And then I remember when I was fourteen years old, came over here for boarding school. I took a taxi.
00:46:04
Speaker 5: I didn't give the extra twenty percent tip, and I got yelled at by the taxi driver.
00:46:08
Speaker 2: That's true, you've got your money.
00:46:09
Speaker 5: No, Because I like to go native and I understand tipping's very important in US culture, I just automatically give twenty percent on top of anything, whether it's a meal. You know. Now the big controversy is about if I'm getting my coffee right, and it's not even dining in, I'm taking it to go, and the little machine pops up and it says twenty five percent, thirty percent. That is getting people annoyed, and so for me, you know, when that first happened, I came back to the States a year ago and I was like, oh shock. I was like, what, like, that's getting to this level?
00:46:35
Speaker 2: Now?
00:46:36
Speaker 5: Can you just pay your people better? Which is what people do in act in Asia, the minimum base is just higher, so people WoT better taken care of. But I mostly just give it now, mostly because not actually even from an edque perspective, but from like an energy perspective. I just feel that if I have the mindset of abundance and it comes back.
00:46:54
Speaker 4: Right, which is good, and I think that's a good way to look at it from that perspective. But that tipping at the count, like you said, So here's the thing, right, if you're standing, you're receiving, you're not required to tip.
00:47:06
Speaker 2: In that instance.
00:47:07
Speaker 4: You can maybe you had just a really pleasant exchange with the person, or again you're giving to receive or what have you. Maybe you have a large order or it's the same person and they remember your order. That way, you're just not required. So that person who says Colley, I just want to get my sandwich because I save my money on a budget, I'm getting my Kodi, and this is all I got.
00:47:27
Speaker 2: I don't want.
00:47:27
Speaker 4: People to feel com to tell tip in that instance, when you're sitting here in the US, the tip is required because the servers are not getting paid a full pit, whereas the person standing behind the counter they are earning an hourly wage.
00:47:40
Speaker 2: And what has happened that the owners of these shops they are they keep the tip sometimes what or they're staying to their stuff.
00:47:46
Speaker 4: This is a nice perse you get tips, No pay them better. You're putting that on the backs of the consumers. And this who else is making money? The company then has the mission of the transaction, the more they need, so everybody's winning except for the consumer. So if you're standing, you're not required to do so. It's gracious to do so, it's wonderful to do so, but don't do it because you feel societal pressure.
00:48:08
Speaker 2: Right right.
00:48:08
Speaker 4: I think there's a proverb that talks about giving cheerful reach when you give to get to be a cheerful giver.
00:48:13
Speaker 5: And the people at the poements that with the foster casual stuff. People are feeling resentful now, yeah, and they shouldn't feel obligated that way.
00:48:19
Speaker 4: They should I'm on a soapbox for that, say, don't feel obligated, be cheerful when you give.
00:48:24
Speaker 1: It makes me so uncomfortable. I would rather raise the price of my coffee.
00:48:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can not have like I don't want to deal with that.
00:48:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's awkward.
00:48:33
Speaker 4: I think it's awkward because you feel pressured if you're wondering to people see and then if you say no tip, then you think, well, the person's now going to think that I'm cheap or I don't want to help them, what have you.
00:48:42
Speaker 1: But you don't have to, okay, you just have to want to dropping by a friend's house unannounced.
00:48:48
Speaker 3: How do you feel about that?
00:48:49
Speaker 2: Depends on how good a friend you all right? Okay?
00:48:51
Speaker 4: And it depends on the circumstance too. Yeah, death in the family, new baby. You know they're not feeling so well, haven't heard from them? Checking in on them to make sure they're okay. Now, they say, check on your strong friends. They might be going through something. I love a puffit. I find it so neighborly. Yeah, so it depends not everyone likes it, Yeah, not everyone likes it, but listen, like that whole check on your strong friends saying it's good you know, check on your friends. You don't hear from someone for some time, I haven't seen out them, and so forth.
00:49:20
Speaker 2: Check on them.
00:49:22
Speaker 1: How do you address body odor or bad breadth without humiliating somebody?
00:49:26
Speaker 2: Tell them privately. So what I do, and I've written about this in my book, is I'll be like, oh.
00:49:32
Speaker 5: Is that my be with yours? And then I'll say, oh, you know what, I've tried this great streat. It works so well, and it's changed life of me and a lot of my other friends. So it doesn't make it seem like they're singled out. That's really nice. I like that you put it on yourself. How do you gracefully end a friendship?
00:49:49
Speaker 2: I've had to do that.
00:49:50
Speaker 3: Okay, will you play it out with me?
00:49:52
Speaker 1: But I'd love to know both of yours and I know it's a longer conversation, but what text would you say?
00:49:57
Speaker 3: How would you do it?
00:49:58
Speaker 2: I've had to do that and in one instance, I just began to withdraw. That's the easiest one. I just began to withdraw. Flower response times say you're busy and not the hangout, no thank you, and the invites were no longer.
00:50:16
Speaker 3: So you think with draw it's a good one.
00:50:18
Speaker 5: Yeah, with doors the easiest one, because not everybody deserves an explanation. Not everybody needs to hear why. I mean, unless it's you know, your best friend, well, I mean I once broke up with a boyfriend of her text, but his ex wife divorced him by email and see to his mother. I mean, I think if somebody really does something to upset you, and that means that you really care about the right because they're a very close friend and they did something, then that deserves a conversation. And maybe you say I'm not ready to speak to you right now. I'll let you know when I am. I've used that and that's also been done on me. But that's like you know, your top zero points or zero one percent of your best friends. Otherwise I do say, Minzalaine.
00:50:53
Speaker 4: You just begin to withdraw because typically in relationships, especially when you're closed, and we'll begin to recognize that.
00:51:01
Speaker 2: Now if they come to you and they say, okay, I've noticed.
00:51:03
Speaker 6: You haven't called with them to get up together, and this is when you would have to say something to the fact to say, you know, I am moving in a different direction or at this point in time, I just don't see us continuing our relationship with ways Can.
00:51:17
Speaker 2: So I'm going to take a step back. That's nice.
00:51:19
Speaker 3: That's actually kind of cools the blow, Yeah, a little bit. Is it bad manners for.
00:51:24
Speaker 1: Manners I should say to talk about money? Or is it worse to pretend it doesn't exist?
00:51:30
Speaker 2: I think everything is contextual.
00:51:31
Speaker 5: You know.
00:51:32
Speaker 4: Let's say, for example, one thing I can say in the entertainment industry, I have friends who will talk and say, here's how much I'm getting paid for this? Because I want you to go in and find for what you're supposed to do that, right, Yeah, And so you're finding that in the entertainment industry. You're finding that in certain industries, and so that's something that is acceptable. But you definitely don't want to walk into somebody's house and say, good, great, this is great.
00:51:54
Speaker 2: How much did you get for this one?
00:51:56
Speaker 5: You know?
00:51:56
Speaker 2: So that is something. So here's a funny thing.
00:51:58
Speaker 5: In China, friends will come how much does this rent cost? And it's not considered that badness because they're like, well, if I want, I can go find a broker and find out how much it costs. Anyway, so it's public information.
00:52:09
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, I love that bad? Wait? How much was that? Also? Because China went.
00:52:12
Speaker 5: Through this period of communism where everything was very transparent and everyone need the price of everything and everybody had the same thing. So it is again contextual, like Elaine said, and it's just funny culturally.
00:52:24
Speaker 1: Okay, I have six rapid fire quest. It's ready, Okay. What's the most common social mystery that people make in twenty twenty six?
00:52:36
Speaker 2: Facial expression for people?
00:52:38
Speaker 3: How many minutes late? Is fashionably late?
00:52:40
Speaker 2: Fashionably so that I am still acceptable within ten minutes? I agree?
00:52:45
Speaker 3: Worst etiquette sin interrupting or oversharing both.
00:52:48
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, so that's a tough one.
00:52:51
Speaker 4: Oversharing could leave an indubible mark and someone Yeah yeah, so.
00:52:57
Speaker 1: Maybe that one the smallest thing someone can do to make them instantly classy, be kind.
00:53:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, the biggest sign that someone was.
00:53:05
Speaker 2: Raised well the way they treat others. A book that.
00:53:07
Speaker 3: Changed your life, something you think everybody.
00:53:09
Speaker 2: Should read, Elaine Swan's Book of Modern Etiquette.
00:53:13
Speaker 3: You can't choose The girl.
00:53:16
Speaker 2: Manifests now by Idil Ahmed how Safe People? Yeah, there's book called safe People.
00:53:21
Speaker 4: Can't think of that author right now, but save people change my life and they helped me put boundaries out.
00:53:26
Speaker 1: What's something that every woman should try once? Whatever first came tore my high book.
00:53:30
Speaker 2: I wasn't expecting that out of you. Yeah, definitely.
00:53:36
Speaker 3: I guess you are married to a rocker.
00:53:37
Speaker 1: Okay, right?
00:53:38
Speaker 2: Do it somewhere that is different? Yeah? I been there, done that.
00:53:43
Speaker 1: You could teach the world one etiquette principle that would make life easier for them, not your favorite, not the best, but would make their lives easier.
00:53:52
Speaker 2: Well, would it be think before you speak? That make life so much easier? Just give it a beat, yeah, and then speak.
00:53:57
Speaker 5: I want to say live moment to moment, because sometimes if you think too far ahead, you get into your head as opposed to being in your body. And I think when you stay moment to moment, you're in your body and your intuition and you're more present.
00:54:08
Speaker 2: That's beautiful, It's good.
00:54:10
Speaker 3: Do each of you have a favorite question when you're greeting strangers and icebreaker that you go to.
00:54:15
Speaker 4: I will ask, and I share this in my book. You can ask folks, how did you learn about the event? How do you know the person?
00:54:22
Speaker 2: How do you know the host?
00:54:23
Speaker 5: Yeah?
00:54:23
Speaker 1: I do unhitched ones, I'll do like, if you were to give a Ted talk in ten minutes, what.
00:54:28
Speaker 3: Would you give it on?
00:54:29
Speaker 2: Wow, that's one of your first questions.
00:54:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, the smartest decision that you've ever.
00:54:33
Speaker 2: Made marry my husband. Gosh, it's hard to say.
00:54:36
Speaker 5: I feel that even my poor decisions are my smalletest ones because I love the most from them.
00:54:40
Speaker 2: I don't like my poor decision. I wish they would go away, but I did learn from them. Yeah, and you love more about yourself.
00:54:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, you do me a favor and grab the card game and pick a card, any card. It's like tarot, So whichever one calls you and then we'll pass it to Sarah Jane. You'll pick one, So question everything.
00:54:55
Speaker 2: Okay, fine, I'm ready.
00:54:57
Speaker 3: Okay, Elaine, which one did you get? What?
00:55:00
Speaker 4: As you're defining characteristic, probably my kindness towards others. That's something that I am certain resonates with most people. They say, oh, she's so nice.
00:55:09
Speaker 5: Minus what should be required reading for every human? I say, anything spiritual, anything that elevates your soul should be required reading for every human.
00:55:18
Speaker 3: Whatever you're drawn to. Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.