Lila Pine:
0:00
You know, we're still here. We're still here. All the odds are against us still being here, because it was every attempt every, you know, they brought in smallpox on the blankets. They tried to prevent us from speaking our languages, they tried to tell us that our God, I mean, they even you know, even today in the magma language, the way you know the word for God has has changed because the word that we use before they told you know that they told us that, that meant devil. And so you know, now getting back to using the old word for God.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
0:43
Welcome to creative oceans from rainbow faith and freedom. I'm Bridget fry. Today I'm speaking with facilitator and storyteller Leslie Lee kam, an artist and virus in academic Lyla pine, two dear friends and elders who came to know each other through the youth elders project buddies in bad times, describing their shared experiences of being schooled in Catholic institutions in the violent colonialism and acted upon both of their communities. Leslie and Milo reflect on their dual processes of reclaiming spirituality, and rejecting the shame of institutionalized Catholicism. A note to our listeners, this conversation includes descriptions of child abuse and sexual assault. Welcome to the podcast today, Leslie and Lila, thank you so much for being here.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
1:36
Thanks for having us.
Lila Pine:
1:38
Thank you.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
1:39
So today's gonna be pretty informal. And we're going to be speaking together about the changing relationships to spirituality and organized religions, and the process of reclaiming spirituality and how that process goes on aging, and all those sorts of things. And I'm very, very excited to speak with you both. mosey Would you like to start us off with the land acknowledgement?
LeZlie Lee Kam:
2:04
I'll just start the way I do it. I'm an immigrant to this country, I want to honor and respect the, the land that I'm living on, which belongs to indigenous people. And in Toronto, where I live. It's the hoed, nashoni, the Huron wendat, the Cree and the mississaugas of the credit, and all the other indigenous peoples who have come before. And for me, it's really important that I use my power and privilege to ensure that indigenous peoples enjoy the same benefits that we take for granted who live on this land something as simple as clean drinking water, and heat and electricity, and especially now during COVID access to health care resources. So it's important for me to acknowledge that
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
3:12
Thank you, Leslie, for opening that up with acknowledgement. Just so first question is, you've described each other as coming from worlds apart and I'm curious, what does that mean to you both the the the sort of the feeling of being connected, yet worlds apart?
Lila Pine:
3:32
Well, for me, I have to say that before. How like before having a public conversation, it's important to call in a spirit. So I have to say that in my language, we'll start off with delicacy Laila layer we make McGee Are you gay? We make moggy. So I just said that my name is Laila. I belong to MiG ma territory. And now I'm living in my territory, which is kind of interesting for me because before Penton before the pandemic, I would have to say, My name is Laila I, I belong to make Mark nygma territory, and I'm living territory of the hood nashoni and the shrine wenda and the Ganesh NaVi. And so it's very, it's, it's, you know, that in some ways, the pandemic has brought me home.
Unknown:
4:27
Mm
Lila Pine:
4:31
hmm. So I just wanted to say that first because I was taught that we should introduce ourselves in the language because the, the language of the land is something that's very, I mean, we learn to speak from the land, and we learn to water and, you know, and so that if you speak in the language that the land has given you, then the spirits and the ancestors from that land can hear you. So that's why I said that But in terms of my I can't remember the question already, but I think
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
5:05
I can I can restate it to feel like
Lila Pine:
5:12
it had something to do with how, oh, that we're worlds apart. Yeah.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
5:18
It's a What does that mean? Essentially, it's the question, what does it mean to be worlds apart for you both?
Lila Pine:
5:23
Well, I think that what was interesting because the way that we realized that we were worlds apart was because we, we the religion, the Catholic religion, imposed itself upon both of us, even though I grew up in nigma. territory. So that's the east coast of Canada that people refer to today is Canada's east coast of the Turtle Island. And Leslie grew up in Trinidad. Was it lovely? Yes. And but despite the fact that Leslie grew up there, and I grew up here, this religion of In my case, the settlers, or the colonizers imposed itself on my upbringing and my religious religious beliefs. And the same thing happened to listen. So in that sense, we were worlds apart in other senses, because we're, you know, everyone's related, we're all relations. We're not worlds apart.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
6:32
Yes. And it's the same thing that happened in Trinidad and Tobago, when the Spanish calling this so Trinidad and Tobago, especially Trinidad is one of the most colonized the islands countries in the world. And when the Spanish came, they brought Catholicism with them. And then when the missionaries came from Nova Scotia, to Trinidad and Tobago, they brought the Anglican religion and Presbyterian religions with them. Because as poor little carry people who were living there didn't know what was good for us, so they had to show us the light.
Lila Pine:
7:26
That's the same thing that happened here with the Catholics and other Christian denominations as well. But in the East Coast, it was predominantly Catholic. At the beginning, it was, you know, I don't know whether they believe this or not, but they act as though they believe that they that we didn't know any better, and that we were savages. In fact, you know, like, I don't have to go very back far back in my family tree to have in the census my ancestors listed as squash.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
8:01
Exactly. And that that was the same thing in Trinidad and Tobago, that we the Caribbean, the arrow acts are savages. Yeah, so I'm pulling a carrot. But I'm also carrying from Trinidad.
Lila Pine:
8:17
It's hard to know what what was going on in the minds of people who want to pose their own religion on other people? Did they really think we were savages? Did or you know, like, one of the one of the things that happened really early on in the, in the formation of Canada is that john MacDonald knew very well that indigenous people had a superior governance system. And it terrified him. So I sometimes I wonder, like, you know, I mean, this whole thing when he made gift giving illegal, for example, because he thought it undermine the building up of a capitalist economy. And so that kind of makes me wonder, did people really think of us that way? Or were they were, you know, maybe they did? Or are they just terrified? Because you know, why it's so important for the residential school, for example, to stand up all spiritual beliefs, all languages, like why did they want to stamp out our languages? I mean, and you know, like, one of the things that was a threat also was the sexuality that was much freer and people didn't have the same adherence to the to the to the patriarchal family structure, which also kind of undermine the economic system.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
9:52
And from what I know about the history of indigenous people in Trinidad and Tobago, It was that we wouldn't bend to the rule, they could not control us. So they brought in slaves from Africa.
Lila Pine:
10:13
And that's the same thing that happened here, right? There was no, they, you know, they, they try. I mean, you know, we're still here, we're still here enough, all the odds are against us still being here, because it was every attempt every, you know, they brought in smallpox on the blankets. They tried to prevent us from speaking our languages, they tried to tell us that our God, I mean, they even you know, even today in the MiG ma language, the way you know, the word for God has, has changed because the word that we use before they told, you know, that they told us that, that meant devil. And so, you know, people now getting back to using the old word for God. But I mean, the thing is, is that what happened was, and I don't know what happened, in your case, Lizzie, but what happened here was that people believed what they say like my mom, she's such a devout Catholic, you know, and, in a way she comes by it, honestly, because I can trace my ancestors all the way back to on Remember to who was the first who's, you know, at least, as far as we know, he was the first indigenous person on Turtle Island to convert to Catholicism. Wow. And so, you know, the whole the weight of that very heavy, because, you know, trying to get out from under my, my mom's belief in, in Catholicism, and, you know, the impact that that had on her. internalized racism is like, a burden.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
11:52
And it's interesting that you say your mother is a devout Catholic, because we have a saying that, you know, some people are more Catholic than the Pope.
Lila Pine:
12:07
My mother, if she's listening would be so horrified by that idea. My
LeZlie Lee Kam:
12:15
mother was raised Anglican, and she and it was unusual, because on my on her side, she's Portuguese. And Portuguese was supposed to be Catholic. Because they came in they came into Trinidad after the Spanish foreigner like could call it cool. colonizers. The Portuguese came in after the Spanish. So my mother was raised Anglican, but my father was raised Catholic. And then when they were getting married, she converted, even though my father was my father was not a practicing Catholic. So there's all the hypocrisy that goes along with it anyway, so my mother converted to Catholicism. And we had to go to church every Sunday, but my father never went. And he said, he didn't he he felt that the church was the Catholic Church was too hypocritical. But because my mother believed in it, we went to church, but it never really did anything for me, because for me, it was always punishment, and shaming. And, you know, like, what did it What was I doing that was so wrong, that I was a sinner? There was always the whole thing about you being bad and having to go and confess. But but to bring it back to the initial question, Laila, and I discovered that we share the similar background when we were going to do a little skit. And then we started having we decided we would do a could see and then we discovered we both were taught by nuns. And our the way we were schooled by these nuns was exactly the same even though we will will support so it brings us back to the power of the Catholic Church and Catholicism will support you know, this, they still do the same thing. And now my mother prays three hours a day I have no clue what she's praying for praying about. But one of the things I know she's praying for is for me not to be a lesbian. You know, it's like rarely am 67. And, you know, you never give me any grandchildren. They said you have like seven grandchildren. And it goes grandchildren. Oh, yeah. But there's one way so to send me the hypocrisy, because my mother when I came to live in this country, was involved with a married man. And then when I came out, she was still involved with this, this married man, but the shame and disgrace and dishonor that I brought to the family, even though she was having a relationship with a married man, but still going to church and receiving communion. So for me, it's always been this hypocrisy. And then when I was in convent, I don't know if this happened to you, Laila. But going to a convent school, the racism that I see now in retrospect, how it played out the white girls who are treated differently from the brown girls who were treated differently from the black girls and the Indigo Girls. And the punishment, it was always punishment and corporal punishment, and inflicting pain on us. So for me that that never the Catholic Church was never good for me. Oh,
Lila Pine:
16:18
well, I think. I mean, we're the same age. And I think that's probably true for most people who experienced the Catholic Church, because I mean, certainly for me, it was, you know, I went to a Catholic school. And, and it was the same thing. There was always this shame. There was punishment, as you said, you know, even for minor things, if you own you would get a strap strapping. Yeah. And so and also like, yeah, I think there was a, you know, I never identified it as racism. But you know, there was definitely a different treatment for people. You know, people like me, and you know, who, you know, I remember when I was in grade one. One of the rich girls from the town, accused me of stealing her pencil. No, it was a pencil that my uncle gave me. And he and he put like a little, little thing on like, he put a design on the pencil. So my Uncle Tom gave me that pencil, but she said I stole it from her. And then the nun called us both up to her desk and she looked in our eyes for it sounded like for me, it felt like an hour. I have no idea how long it was really. And then she decided she's one of us lying, she said, and then she decided that I was the liar. And she poked me with her finger in my stomach, I can still feel like you are lying. She said to me. And then after that, my nickname was Laila the liar. For so long, you know? According to the non I lied about the pencil that my uncle gave me.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
18:13
Mm hmm. Yeah, so I
Lila Pine:
18:18
have that Joyce got the pencil.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
18:21
Oh,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
18:22
she got it with the design.
Lila Pine:
18:24
Yeah. My uncle made me another one. But the other interesting terms that we never talked about before I just found out now when you were talking is that in terms of our background, my, my mom was the Catholic. And my dad, who is my dad, who is Scottish. So so I'm, you know, my mom, my mom's side and Scottish on my dad's side. And he was a Protestant. And I think maybe Anglican. I can't remember. But anyway, when he wanted to marry my mom, he had to convert to Catholicism. Because otherwise she wouldn't or couldn't, or whatever, marry him. And so he did do that. And he did go to church. For so we have, like you we had to go to church every Sunday. And and we had to also go to confession. And it was like, for me, it was such a traumatic event to go to Confession because my mom was sexually abusive. And, and I always thought that was my sin, right like that. My father did those things to me and that I had to confess them. Of course, I couldn't confess them because it was there was such a deep shame. Yeah, I would go to Confession make up all sorts of sin to like keep track I'd say okay, I'd say I stole five cookies, or I did this. I keep track. I mean, how many things that I just say I did and then at the end, I would say and I lied five times, you know, those? Were fine lies because there is no And the but so the again, like the hypocrisy of being brought up that way and at the same time having this kind of experience with, you know, with this really deep shame. And then I remember, you know, finally I ended up telling my mom, so my mom took me to the priest and the pre said, and they'll be you know I was quite old by that time I was 14 I ran away then the following year but the pre said that because my father was this was I don't know, I can't remember exactly, but we had to go back home and not rock the boat and and that it was like we had to be walking on eggshells picturing these egg shells. So I had to walk on. No, not understanding that it was metaphor. But anyway. Yeah. So that like that, as you called it, Leslie, like the hypocrisy of all of that is like boggling and what that does to a child when you know when they're in, in that situation.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
20:58
It's and it's brainwashing when you think about? Yeah.
Lila Pine:
21:05
So it takes a long time to crawl out of that to get out of it to just like, you know, clear it all away and realize that, you know, you're not bad.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
21:17
Mm hmm. And one of the other things, I'm just remembering Laila. I'm not gonna mention names, but somebody, one of the other elders in the project, started giving you a really hard time. And if you remember that, I won. Yes. And how difficult that was. And you and I sort of bonded over that because I was supporting you. Mm hmm. And it just, it reminded me of a hair as somebody who is white and older, who should know better doing that to somebody who is indigenous and to spirit in this forum, where we were supposed to be getting together as elders and youth to support each other. Yeah, they reminded me of mother's superior. You had a Mother Superior?
Lila Pine:
22:24
Yeah, I guess just just for people who are listening to the podcast. Leslie and I met through this project called Yep. Youth out the youth elder project that was put on by buddies in bad times. And so you know, we were a bunch of elders and a bunch of queer elders and a bunch of queer youth who came together to put on a play. Yeah.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
22:51
Well, it wasn't, it wasn't actually a play. It was always stories, and how they how our stories were interwoven. So the, the underlying theme was the youth performing some live lived experiences of the elders, and vice versa. And each one of us, each queer elder, and each queer youth was telling a story, in tiny skits and how we all work together to make it into a stage performance. Does that sound like it? Laila? Yeah, I
Lila Pine:
23:38
think I mean, it was I thought it was, you know, like, I mean, it was really the, the brainchild of Evelyn What's her last name?
LeZlie Lee Kam:
23:46
Harry.
Lila Pine:
23:47
Yeah, Evelyn Perry. And it but it was, it was amazing. Although I had no idea that it was amazing. until until I told the middle of it. I remember we had this, like, you know, we, the first it was went from September to June when we had our performance was during pride. And I remember not really knowing what we were doing it you know, except for we've done all the creative exercises, and it was a lot of fun. And I really looked forward to every every rehearsal, but then when we got closer to the actual performance itself. You know, we were doing these performance pieces like they were skits we were we sat around a table and had these conversations was like the it was a it was a dinner table and the only conversation The only thing on the menu was conversation and that was you know, really powerful part of the performance itself. But I had no idea what it looks like that's what your your question when you when you said what it looked like because I remember when the when we first went out on stage and we all had our lines, something about the way it Our birth in different different different things that we were sharing with the audience first time we had sex. I don't know, I can't remember all the different things. Age. Yeah. And
LeZlie Lee Kam:
25:13
coming out. Yeah.
Lila Pine:
25:15
And the audience was in stitches. Yeah. And I had no idea until that moment that it was even funny. You know.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
25:25
One of the things too, is we were expecting people to love, but we were not expecting people to cry. Right? What happened that sort of threw us for a loop. So we were right there with the audience. And as Laila said, what you know, you're not expecting certain reactions, and you just keep going with the performance, even though the audience was so viscerally reacting to what was happening.
Lila Pine:
25:59
And we were right in the middle of the audience to so the stage was in the middle of the audience all
LeZlie Lee Kam:
26:03
their audience was on both sides. Yeah.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
26:07
And what do you think about the performance? That really, and you didn't realize people would laugh? People would cry? Yeah. What do you think really made it so visceral for them?
LeZlie Lee Kam:
26:18
Well, for me, what people came up to me and said afterwards, it was it made them think about our lives and what they saw in themselves through our our lives, because everything we did was something that each one of us had lived through. So that was the response I got it was so powerful. They said that made them stop and think it made them realize that, you know, queer youth and queer seniors need to be having conversations. And that's what, so what we are doing now with the app grew out of that stage performance, there was a need, people came to us and said, We want to have these conversations. We've never had the opportunity to see something like this before, where queer youth and queer elders did something like this together. And they thought themselves in every single thing that we did. Lyla is being very modest. One of the highlights of the The production was one of lightless pieces, where she did a strip about that. She always wanted to do that. But it was hot, which was done in terms of her being to spirit and her indigenous culture.
Lila Pine:
27:49
I was a buffalo. Yeah.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
27:52
Yeah.
Lila Pine:
27:54
It was, it was interesting, too. Because, you know, my, my, well, I didn't even think about telling my, we had two performances, right. So the first performance, it never occurred to me to tell anybody about the performance, because I don't know why I just didn't occur to me. And then when my daughter found out about it, she was so mad. And first of all, my
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
28:16
daughter, Oh, my gosh.
Lila Pine:
28:19
Oh, she has her own theater group. So I did tell her about the second one. So she Yeah, she came to the second one and and so then I asked her, I said, you know, why? Why was this good? You know? And she's like, Oh, Mom, You're hopeless.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
28:38
I know we will on for a week.
Lila Pine:
28:41
No, yeah. And so and so but for me, I was a bit nerve wracking for me because I have friends like, you know, first of all my family my grandkids wanted to come and I said, No, there's no way Yeah, so
LeZlie Lee Kam:
28:58
it was a taste will stripping. Yeah.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
29:04
Oh, that's I'm so sad. I did not get to go to this performance. It sounds amazing.
Lila Pine:
29:10
For me, the best part was really not that one. It was even That was fun. That was really fun for me and I really appreciate it the way that it was received by the audience and encouraging me and everything and you know, even Evelyn she brought in a stripper to teach me because I was so bad at it. Yes.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
29:30
performer
Lila Pine:
29:32
Oh, that's right. Sorry. burlesque performer anyway, so I remember the Evelyn saying to somebody afterwards. Um, I knew all she needed was an audience. Right. So
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
29:46
he came alive. Yes. That's amazing. Yeah. Once you have people there and you just got to feel the energy.
Lila Pine:
29:55
For me, the better the more not better. Just like something that I really, that I keep, you know, valued or I don't know, the the best part of it for me in a way was when I did a performance with a young indigenous to spirit individual Tai Chi. Yeah, and we did a performance together. And I got to I, you know, I played the elder, and I like to speak in my language. And it was like, it was kind of like the opening of, you know, sort of like, it was kind of like a land acknowledgement, but not exactly lending knowledge meant was kind of like that. And, you know, it was so great to be able to do that performance with this young, Two Spirit person who had had really not been brought up in their culture at all. Because they did, in fact, they only met their birth mother during the performance, like not at the performance, but during our time together.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
30:58
Yeah. And, and so it sounds like I mean, what an amazing project to be a part of, and one that's so deeply intergenerational and the way that I feel like we have very few of those moments of overlap in terms of those compensations. And Leslie, like you said, it sounds like people were just chomping at the bit to be a part of it. And kind of going back to, you know, your, the kinships, that you had very early on, and then in recognizing that, in this performance, and sharing a lot in terms of how, you know, the Catholic institution, you know, the global enterprise of it, and its colonial institution, sort of, increasingly could just talk, talk a little bit about how most of your relationships to spirituality have changed over time. So maybe starting with, you know, we've heard a little bit about your first kind of exposures to this very cruel and terrible religious setting and how, how, yeah, how that changed for you.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
32:04
Um, well, for me, everything changed when I came out. I mean, I, I had stopped being Catholic. So I say I'm a Catholic and recovery, it. It always was, like I was being shamed. And I could never do anything, right, something as simple as not buttoning the top button in my shirt. And my uniform was a sin. And I just had enough. And then when I came to Toronto, and I got involved when I started University with a woman from Trinidad, who was also going to university here, and we fell in love, but we didn't have any words, we didn't know anything about being lesbian. But she was also deeply Catholic, deeply devout. And it was very hard for her to have relationship because every time we made love, and there was an orgasm, she felt such shame because the truth said, You're not supposed to have sex for pleasure, only to procreate. So that, you know, also was upsetting for me that, hey, I was in love with somebody, and she was so ashamed of our relationship, but we were together. And then, when our relationship was found out, she was sent back to Trinidad in shame. And she was not allowed to have relationships with anybody because her family was shaming her. And my mother tried to do the same thing to me, but I was having none of that. And then I decided that the church had nothing for me. Once I came to Toronto, and I saw how hypocritical My mother was in this relationship with a married man. But she still kept dragging me the choose. And because I was a minor, I had no choice. And then once I started living on my own, I stopped going to church. But then there's this Catholic tradition of Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve. And I would go with her just to be a dutiful daughter and not to make waves in the family. We would go as a family. And one night the priest started preaching about fire and brimstone and hell and damnation and he said, All homosexuals are gonna burn in hell. And I looked at my mother and I, my three brothers were sitting there and they all knew that I was a die cut. nobody did anything. And I got up and I walk out. And my mother said I had shamed her again, how could I do something like that? And I was said, I never went back to the church again. And I said I'd had enough. So I switched over. I was in a coma for back in 2007. And when I came out of the coma, it just shook my whole way of being in the world. I guess cool. Must do that to you. And I started practicing mindfulness. I went, I'm a client of women's health and women's hands. And one of the psychotherapists there Dion curling and I mentioning her name because she saved me. And I started learning mindfulness from her and that's what's kept me grounded. Oh, and the other person who also saved me is Merlin Homer. I don't know if you know, Merlin. No. So Merlin is a therapist and she is indigenous and I call her my magician because leading up to me going into the coma, I was in a coma because of alcohol poisoning. And I had been having a really rough time in terms of using alcohol to cope with the stress of being queer and working in lesbian collectives and being the only outlasts vn. And I discovered Merlin and Merlin also kept me on the you know, sort of the right track, because I had been contemplating suicide. So between Merlin and Dion hair, I am still alive today. And mindfulness is what has kept me going. So I owe nothing to the Catholic Church. And for me, though, it's my spirituality. I believe there's something out there that's bigger than me, but certainly not God in the Catholic Church. So that's my story. And I'm sticking to it. Thank you, Leslie.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
37:19
Thank you for sharing. And Laila. Yeah. How would you describe your relationship to spiritually changing?
Lila Pine:
37:27
Well, yeah, for me, um, I, I'm also another, you know, area that we have in common is, I call myself a Catholic and recovery as well. Um, in some ways that transition for me happened, I guess, part of when I left home as well, I, you know, I mentioned earlier that I ran away when I was 15, because my dad wouldn't leave me alone. So that was, I ended up living when I first went to live with my sister in Halifax. And then she decided that was too much for her. So I ended up. Interestingly enough, I ended up going to university, even though I was 15. And I 15 going on 16. My birthday is in October, and I hadn't finished high school, but I went to. I went to I don't know why I even did this, really. But I went to Mount St. Vincent University. And I spoke with the chaplain there. And I explained my situation, I tried really hard to get a job, but I looked really young. I get I was really young. I guess that's what I'm anyway. So I went to the chaplain at the university, because I had in my head that I was that I should go to university, instead of getting a job because I couldn't get a job. And so I told him my story. And I told him, I hadn't finished high school, but I was smart. And you know, I could do it. And so he arranged for me to write an entrance exam, even though they didn't have entrance exams back then, and I got in. So I went to university and that was a Catholic University. So at first I lived in in the convent with the nuns. And that, for various reasons didn't work out. That could be a whole other story. But so I left the convent and I got involved with kind of through that priest in a way, I got involved with social justice issues. And I become I joined the student Christian movement, which is was mostly Protestant. So I don't know why I did that. But I ended up in the student Christian movement. And it was the student Christian movement was kind of like a movement of university Christians who We're at, you know, sort of interested in social issues and, and I remember going to a meeting that they had at Mount Saint Vincent. And there was a woman who was from the student Christian movement. Her name was Judy, I won't say her last name because she never felt. So I completely fell in love with her. And so I got really involved in this student Christian movement. And somewhere along the line, I was actually in the middle of was at a conference in the middle of giving a paper about issues around like youth participating in social justice issues. And I realized at the middle of this presentation, that I didn't believe in the Catholic Church, I didn't believe in those teachings, you know, there were so many parts of those teachings that I didn't believe in the misogyny, the, you know, all of that, and sort of halfway through this talk, I made that declaration. And much to the chagrin of my that priest, because he was the one who got, you know, got me there at that conference. Remember how angry he was with me. And so that was kind of the break from from the Catholic religion, that was the break. And so it was kind of it was through ish social justice, that I made that break. And, and but it was much, much later, so I didn't really have a religion or even a spirituality, I was very distrustful of any, any thing that smelled religious at all. And so it was, and I wasn't until much, much later that I started to learn my language that I began to connect with the old magma, spiritual beliefs and that, you know, a lot of as I mentioned earlier, like the, the colonizers came here, first, they came to the east coast first. And so, you know, a lot of the magma people are, are Catholic, you know, most, most are Catholic. And so it's hard to find anyone in any of the elders who know anything about the old ways, and, you know, I'm just learning now, like, morning, for example, I just learned that before the settlers came, we used to, when somebody died, we used to, we'd like the anishinabeg would have the fire for for three days, four days, three days, three days and three nights. And then on the fourth day, the body would be placed in a tree and, you know, they would be it would be burned. And that and, you know, I didn't know, you know, there was so there's so many parts of the beliefs that I don't know anything about. But you know, there's a lot of the spirituality is very connected, like the language, the spirituality connected to the land, it's the land teaches us to pray and the land in the water, they teach us to pray, they teach us to, to speak, and they teach us our connection to the ancestors, so I can feel you know, when I walk along, I'm lucky to be living, right? I live, right where the water where the river meets the bay and meets the ocean. Where I am is the rest of us river, but it's flowing right into the bay, which is flowing right into the ocean. And so that,
LeZlie Lee Kam:
43:37
oh, yeah,
Lila Pine:
43:39
that's sort of, you know, and I, when I walk along the beach here, outside my house, I can I know that my grandmother's walk there, too.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
43:52
Mm hmm. And it's interesting that you have that you are drawn to water because it's the same thing for me with the ocean and the sea and the lake. I don't know if it's because I was born in an island or it's just eating me, but I've always been drawn towards her.
Lila Pine:
44:17
Yeah, I think it is in us because we were born here, right? Like you were, were born next to the water. And so when I was living in Toronto, you know, it was, you know, I worked there, I worked at the university there. So, but the pandemic has allowed me to come back home. The other aspect I think of spirituality is I mean, there's, there's not so much a division between your everyday life and spirituality. So one of one things that I noticed here, when I came back, is the gift giving, you know, like gift giving is, to me, what makes us human is that we are gift givers. And that was one of the main things that Johnny Donald and everyone after him tried to squash in us is that is the idea of gift giving. But in gasca, baggy AK the reserve brand that that is still very much alive. So you have, you know, the young people, they get up at four in the morning and go, you know, get a moose for the, you know, first for the community and then for the elders and then for their family. And then and then for the poor people who live outside the reserve. And, you know, soon as the ice freezes over, people are going to be over here, they're going to be smelt fishing, and, you know, it's always for the community first, and then for the elders. And, you know, when I, when I first arrived to get a big x, because I was coming from Toronto, I had to be in quarantine for 14 days. Because of the pandemic, right, and you know, every day there would be cooked meals on my doorstep, and bread on my doorstep and, you know, groceries and. And that's just a part of the way people still are, you know. And that's spirituality too, right? Like, that's the fact that we're responsible for each other. And yes, yeah, well, well, we kiss, we always say, you know, all my relations. Mm hmm. And, you know, and go ahead.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
46:19
And I was just gonna say, it's interesting that you're talking about gift giving, because even though my father did not practice any kind of religion, I don't know why he got this from, but it was the same thing with him and gift giving. Because he grew up my grandfather, my paternal grandfather came from money, but he gambled it all away. So my father and his three brothers and my grandmother were in deep poverty in Trinidad. And my father raised us to always think of other people first. And always to give gifts he said, it doesn't matter how small it is, you always bring something. And now from what I've always done that, and people always comment on it, like it's some big deal. Well, to me, it's not a big deal. Because people are important in your life. And with the with COVID. Now, I it's even more that I have to make sure that people have what they need. Oh, you know, Lyla, when you describe, you know, getting up every day and finding stuff on your doorstep. What was interesting for me was after the announcement was made on the 13th of March that there was going to be a lockdown. The first call I got was from a query use or asking me what I needed. Oh, it was so sweet and lovely. And my query, my query use have been there for me. You know, more so than what you quit this? Yeah. But as you said, Laila spiritualities, more than you know, whatever it is, so it's intrinsic in us, I feel the same way. Yeah. And to come back to where we started, when, when we started the app, I, I felt like I was on the outside. Because I was the only person of color. And then when I kept seeing that lilac challenged me on that, and she says, Well, I'm a person of color to. I'm indigenous and to spirit. So we had this conversation about being outsiders. And I felt that that brought us together. Also. I don't mean that we lie, but I felt that way.
Lila Pine:
48:55
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I don't know if I would have stayed if you weren't there.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
49:00
Same thing, same thing for me, especially when things started falling apart with Mother Superior.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
49:10
A new Mother Superior so being being there for each other in such profound ways, and you know, this is so moving to here and that friendship is feels spiritual to me to hear it the way that you have. You have found that together.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
49:29
Yeah. And we brought food for each other. If you remember that. I
Lila Pine:
49:33
think you brought way more food tonight.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
49:38
I guess. I brought cooked food and you bought me food. That's right. I
Lila Pine:
49:45
forgot about that.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
49:48
Yeah, so we've made that connection. And then we discovered we had all these things in common. I know so even though we will will support
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
49:59
Oh, I guess I have a maybe a final question, being mindful of time. So, we've talked a lot about how this spirituality is intrinsic and is familial is in the land comes from so many different sources in so many different places. And in wondering how your conception of queerness or, or kind of a different gender identities have been to spirit? How, yeah, how does that fit into your conception of spirituality? How do you see those two things working together? Or in conversation with each other?
Lila Pine:
50:39
Well, you know, one thing, that it's interesting, actually, before settlers came to Turtle Island, um, being to spirit, what I mean, nobody called it to spirit, but term that came about in, you know, at a conference in Manitoba in the 90s. But, I mean, it was, it was kind of an umbrella term that people used, because we all have different languages. But the idea of, of gender bending, and, and same sex relationships, and all those things that we think about when we talk, when we think about queer existed in Turtle Island, before settlers came, that was one of the things they tried to stamp out, you know, they were like, Oh, look at these people, they're, you know, there's free with their sexuality. And so, so that was something that was very much a part of the way people were then. But because of, you know, religion, you know, that's, I let you know, people consider that there's a lot of homophobia. And it's, it's kind of a very weird thing. There's a lot of homophobia in the communities. And yet, there's this very fundamental belief that, that is not your right to judge anyone else. So those two things are like always in contradiction with each other, because there is this kind of on this. It's interesting, it's like, on the surface, homophobia, dig deeper. There, because if you dig deeper, it was never there. And you know, and I don't know, I haven't found out about what it was like for MC ma people, but for other indigenous tribes. To spirit people were were revered, and they were the leaders. And they were, you know, like, they were the ones who brought balance, and you know, all kinds of things. And there was, you know, like, in some communities, they actually define genders, you know, you'd have, you know, someone who was born a male who was who was actually females was born female was actually male, somebody who had both. And, you know, there were so many different genders that would that, you know, people referred to.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
53:03
Mm
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
53:05
hmm.
Lila Pine:
53:08
And so the Two Spirit person was kind of the, I don't know, but spiritual person, but they were, you know, the counselors, they were the ones that people went to for consent for advice.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
53:20
And so, along the same lines coming from Trinidad, we have carnival. And Carnival is sort of an excuse for you to be yourself without any judgment. And since I have become an adult, I've realized that Carnival also is an opportunity for gay people, queer people to express themselves. And I have seen pictures of my father in what we would call here drag when he was a young man dressed as a woman. And I've heard stories of him going to the US army base dressed in drag and dressed as a woman and enticing the white American soul is and this is before he was married. So it's interesting you know how there's sort of a similarity that you know, you you have this permission to be this way, only at a particular time of year that you can be free to be yourself and then the rest of the time you're in hiding.
Lila Pine:
54:42
I like to say that we were woke before woke was the thing.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
54:46
Yeah. Was a good way to put it.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
54:53
I really appreciate you sharing what you shared and and hearing about how you found this Connection together I think is is some of the most radical things I can think about. Is this this beautiful friendship. So thank you so much, Leslie in my love for joining me today on queer devotions. It is been a lovely conversation to sit back and be a part of and I hope you both have a lovely rest of your days.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
55:21
You too.
Lila Pine:
55:22
Well Alan M. CIT, nagamma
LeZlie Lee Kam:
55:25
Billa Alan j care.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
55:34
Thank you to Leslie and Lola for sharing their stories, and for being a part of queer devotions. I really felt honored speaking to them, and being a part of that conversation for the rest of seniors day. This morning at 11. We have a panel on spirituality and aging, and Leslie will return again joined by Susan gatka, who you may have heard on Friday on this podcast, and moderated by Ty Sloane. Later in the day at one we will be having a discussion on affirming kinships the significance of chosen families to to LGBTQ older adults with wonderful academics and community organizers involved. Finally this evening we are very pleased to have a drag performance from Carmen del Rey the drag performer and we will also be having a queer broidery workshop with two wonderful artists who are joining us at four. Please let us know if you have any troubles joining info at rainbow faith in freedom.org. We are also active on our Facebook so also reach us there thanks so much
0:00
You know, we're still here. We're still here. All the odds are against us still being here, because it was every attempt every, you know, they brought in smallpox on the blankets. They tried to prevent us from speaking our languages, they tried to tell us that our God, I mean, they even you know, even today in the magma language, the way you know the word for God has has changed because the word that we use before they told you know that they told us that, that meant devil. And so you know, now getting back to using the old word for God.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
0:43
Welcome to creative oceans from rainbow faith and freedom. I'm Bridget fry. Today I'm speaking with facilitator and storyteller Leslie Lee kam, an artist and virus in academic Lyla pine, two dear friends and elders who came to know each other through the youth elders project buddies in bad times, describing their shared experiences of being schooled in Catholic institutions in the violent colonialism and acted upon both of their communities. Leslie and Milo reflect on their dual processes of reclaiming spirituality, and rejecting the shame of institutionalized Catholicism. A note to our listeners, this conversation includes descriptions of child abuse and sexual assault. Welcome to the podcast today, Leslie and Lila, thank you so much for being here.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
1:36
Thanks for having us.
Lila Pine:
1:38
Thank you.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
1:39
So today's gonna be pretty informal. And we're going to be speaking together about the changing relationships to spirituality and organized religions, and the process of reclaiming spirituality and how that process goes on aging, and all those sorts of things. And I'm very, very excited to speak with you both. mosey Would you like to start us off with the land acknowledgement?
LeZlie Lee Kam:
2:04
I'll just start the way I do it. I'm an immigrant to this country, I want to honor and respect the, the land that I'm living on, which belongs to indigenous people. And in Toronto, where I live. It's the hoed, nashoni, the Huron wendat, the Cree and the mississaugas of the credit, and all the other indigenous peoples who have come before. And for me, it's really important that I use my power and privilege to ensure that indigenous peoples enjoy the same benefits that we take for granted who live on this land something as simple as clean drinking water, and heat and electricity, and especially now during COVID access to health care resources. So it's important for me to acknowledge that
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
3:12
Thank you, Leslie, for opening that up with acknowledgement. Just so first question is, you've described each other as coming from worlds apart and I'm curious, what does that mean to you both the the the sort of the feeling of being connected, yet worlds apart?
Lila Pine:
3:32
Well, for me, I have to say that before. How like before having a public conversation, it's important to call in a spirit. So I have to say that in my language, we'll start off with delicacy Laila layer we make McGee Are you gay? We make moggy. So I just said that my name is Laila. I belong to MiG ma territory. And now I'm living in my territory, which is kind of interesting for me because before Penton before the pandemic, I would have to say, My name is Laila I, I belong to make Mark nygma territory, and I'm living territory of the hood nashoni and the shrine wenda and the Ganesh NaVi. And so it's very, it's, it's, you know, that in some ways, the pandemic has brought me home.
Unknown:
4:27
Mm
Lila Pine:
4:31
hmm. So I just wanted to say that first because I was taught that we should introduce ourselves in the language because the, the language of the land is something that's very, I mean, we learn to speak from the land, and we learn to water and, you know, and so that if you speak in the language that the land has given you, then the spirits and the ancestors from that land can hear you. So that's why I said that But in terms of my I can't remember the question already, but I think
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
5:05
I can I can restate it to feel like
Lila Pine:
5:12
it had something to do with how, oh, that we're worlds apart. Yeah.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
5:18
It's a What does that mean? Essentially, it's the question, what does it mean to be worlds apart for you both?
Lila Pine:
5:23
Well, I think that what was interesting because the way that we realized that we were worlds apart was because we, we the religion, the Catholic religion, imposed itself upon both of us, even though I grew up in nigma. territory. So that's the east coast of Canada that people refer to today is Canada's east coast of the Turtle Island. And Leslie grew up in Trinidad. Was it lovely? Yes. And but despite the fact that Leslie grew up there, and I grew up here, this religion of In my case, the settlers, or the colonizers imposed itself on my upbringing and my religious religious beliefs. And the same thing happened to listen. So in that sense, we were worlds apart in other senses, because we're, you know, everyone's related, we're all relations. We're not worlds apart.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
6:32
Yes. And it's the same thing that happened in Trinidad and Tobago, when the Spanish calling this so Trinidad and Tobago, especially Trinidad is one of the most colonized the islands countries in the world. And when the Spanish came, they brought Catholicism with them. And then when the missionaries came from Nova Scotia, to Trinidad and Tobago, they brought the Anglican religion and Presbyterian religions with them. Because as poor little carry people who were living there didn't know what was good for us, so they had to show us the light.
Lila Pine:
7:26
That's the same thing that happened here with the Catholics and other Christian denominations as well. But in the East Coast, it was predominantly Catholic. At the beginning, it was, you know, I don't know whether they believe this or not, but they act as though they believe that they that we didn't know any better, and that we were savages. In fact, you know, like, I don't have to go very back far back in my family tree to have in the census my ancestors listed as squash.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
8:01
Exactly. And that that was the same thing in Trinidad and Tobago, that we the Caribbean, the arrow acts are savages. Yeah, so I'm pulling a carrot. But I'm also carrying from Trinidad.
Lila Pine:
8:17
It's hard to know what what was going on in the minds of people who want to pose their own religion on other people? Did they really think we were savages? Did or you know, like, one of the one of the things that happened really early on in the, in the formation of Canada is that john MacDonald knew very well that indigenous people had a superior governance system. And it terrified him. So I sometimes I wonder, like, you know, I mean, this whole thing when he made gift giving illegal, for example, because he thought it undermine the building up of a capitalist economy. And so that kind of makes me wonder, did people really think of us that way? Or were they were, you know, maybe they did? Or are they just terrified? Because you know, why it's so important for the residential school, for example, to stand up all spiritual beliefs, all languages, like why did they want to stamp out our languages? I mean, and you know, like, one of the things that was a threat also was the sexuality that was much freer and people didn't have the same adherence to the to the to the patriarchal family structure, which also kind of undermine the economic system.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
9:52
And from what I know about the history of indigenous people in Trinidad and Tobago, It was that we wouldn't bend to the rule, they could not control us. So they brought in slaves from Africa.
Lila Pine:
10:13
And that's the same thing that happened here, right? There was no, they, you know, they, they try. I mean, you know, we're still here, we're still here enough, all the odds are against us still being here, because it was every attempt every, you know, they brought in smallpox on the blankets. They tried to prevent us from speaking our languages, they tried to tell us that our God, I mean, they even you know, even today in the MiG ma language, the way you know, the word for God has, has changed because the word that we use before they told, you know, that they told us that, that meant devil. And so, you know, people now getting back to using the old word for God. But I mean, the thing is, is that what happened was, and I don't know what happened, in your case, Lizzie, but what happened here was that people believed what they say like my mom, she's such a devout Catholic, you know, and, in a way she comes by it, honestly, because I can trace my ancestors all the way back to on Remember to who was the first who's, you know, at least, as far as we know, he was the first indigenous person on Turtle Island to convert to Catholicism. Wow. And so, you know, the whole the weight of that very heavy, because, you know, trying to get out from under my, my mom's belief in, in Catholicism, and, you know, the impact that that had on her. internalized racism is like, a burden.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
11:52
And it's interesting that you say your mother is a devout Catholic, because we have a saying that, you know, some people are more Catholic than the Pope.
Lila Pine:
12:07
My mother, if she's listening would be so horrified by that idea. My
LeZlie Lee Kam:
12:15
mother was raised Anglican, and she and it was unusual, because on my on her side, she's Portuguese. And Portuguese was supposed to be Catholic. Because they came in they came into Trinidad after the Spanish foreigner like could call it cool. colonizers. The Portuguese came in after the Spanish. So my mother was raised Anglican, but my father was raised Catholic. And then when they were getting married, she converted, even though my father was my father was not a practicing Catholic. So there's all the hypocrisy that goes along with it anyway, so my mother converted to Catholicism. And we had to go to church every Sunday, but my father never went. And he said, he didn't he he felt that the church was the Catholic Church was too hypocritical. But because my mother believed in it, we went to church, but it never really did anything for me, because for me, it was always punishment, and shaming. And, you know, like, what did it What was I doing that was so wrong, that I was a sinner? There was always the whole thing about you being bad and having to go and confess. But but to bring it back to the initial question, Laila, and I discovered that we share the similar background when we were going to do a little skit. And then we started having we decided we would do a could see and then we discovered we both were taught by nuns. And our the way we were schooled by these nuns was exactly the same even though we will will support so it brings us back to the power of the Catholic Church and Catholicism will support you know, this, they still do the same thing. And now my mother prays three hours a day I have no clue what she's praying for praying about. But one of the things I know she's praying for is for me not to be a lesbian. You know, it's like rarely am 67. And, you know, you never give me any grandchildren. They said you have like seven grandchildren. And it goes grandchildren. Oh, yeah. But there's one way so to send me the hypocrisy, because my mother when I came to live in this country, was involved with a married man. And then when I came out, she was still involved with this, this married man, but the shame and disgrace and dishonor that I brought to the family, even though she was having a relationship with a married man, but still going to church and receiving communion. So for me, it's always been this hypocrisy. And then when I was in convent, I don't know if this happened to you, Laila. But going to a convent school, the racism that I see now in retrospect, how it played out the white girls who are treated differently from the brown girls who were treated differently from the black girls and the Indigo Girls. And the punishment, it was always punishment and corporal punishment, and inflicting pain on us. So for me that that never the Catholic Church was never good for me. Oh,
Lila Pine:
16:18
well, I think. I mean, we're the same age. And I think that's probably true for most people who experienced the Catholic Church, because I mean, certainly for me, it was, you know, I went to a Catholic school. And, and it was the same thing. There was always this shame. There was punishment, as you said, you know, even for minor things, if you own you would get a strap strapping. Yeah. And so and also like, yeah, I think there was a, you know, I never identified it as racism. But you know, there was definitely a different treatment for people. You know, people like me, and you know, who, you know, I remember when I was in grade one. One of the rich girls from the town, accused me of stealing her pencil. No, it was a pencil that my uncle gave me. And he and he put like a little, little thing on like, he put a design on the pencil. So my Uncle Tom gave me that pencil, but she said I stole it from her. And then the nun called us both up to her desk and she looked in our eyes for it sounded like for me, it felt like an hour. I have no idea how long it was really. And then she decided she's one of us lying, she said, and then she decided that I was the liar. And she poked me with her finger in my stomach, I can still feel like you are lying. She said to me. And then after that, my nickname was Laila the liar. For so long, you know? According to the non I lied about the pencil that my uncle gave me.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
18:13
Mm hmm. Yeah, so I
Lila Pine:
18:18
have that Joyce got the pencil.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
18:21
Oh,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
18:22
she got it with the design.
Lila Pine:
18:24
Yeah. My uncle made me another one. But the other interesting terms that we never talked about before I just found out now when you were talking is that in terms of our background, my, my mom was the Catholic. And my dad, who is my dad, who is Scottish. So so I'm, you know, my mom, my mom's side and Scottish on my dad's side. And he was a Protestant. And I think maybe Anglican. I can't remember. But anyway, when he wanted to marry my mom, he had to convert to Catholicism. Because otherwise she wouldn't or couldn't, or whatever, marry him. And so he did do that. And he did go to church. For so we have, like you we had to go to church every Sunday. And and we had to also go to confession. And it was like, for me, it was such a traumatic event to go to Confession because my mom was sexually abusive. And, and I always thought that was my sin, right like that. My father did those things to me and that I had to confess them. Of course, I couldn't confess them because it was there was such a deep shame. Yeah, I would go to Confession make up all sorts of sin to like keep track I'd say okay, I'd say I stole five cookies, or I did this. I keep track. I mean, how many things that I just say I did and then at the end, I would say and I lied five times, you know, those? Were fine lies because there is no And the but so the again, like the hypocrisy of being brought up that way and at the same time having this kind of experience with, you know, with this really deep shame. And then I remember, you know, finally I ended up telling my mom, so my mom took me to the priest and the pre said, and they'll be you know I was quite old by that time I was 14 I ran away then the following year but the pre said that because my father was this was I don't know, I can't remember exactly, but we had to go back home and not rock the boat and and that it was like we had to be walking on eggshells picturing these egg shells. So I had to walk on. No, not understanding that it was metaphor. But anyway. Yeah. So that like that, as you called it, Leslie, like the hypocrisy of all of that is like boggling and what that does to a child when you know when they're in, in that situation.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
20:58
It's and it's brainwashing when you think about? Yeah.
Lila Pine:
21:05
So it takes a long time to crawl out of that to get out of it to just like, you know, clear it all away and realize that, you know, you're not bad.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
21:17
Mm hmm. And one of the other things, I'm just remembering Laila. I'm not gonna mention names, but somebody, one of the other elders in the project, started giving you a really hard time. And if you remember that, I won. Yes. And how difficult that was. And you and I sort of bonded over that because I was supporting you. Mm hmm. And it just, it reminded me of a hair as somebody who is white and older, who should know better doing that to somebody who is indigenous and to spirit in this forum, where we were supposed to be getting together as elders and youth to support each other. Yeah, they reminded me of mother's superior. You had a Mother Superior?
Lila Pine:
22:24
Yeah, I guess just just for people who are listening to the podcast. Leslie and I met through this project called Yep. Youth out the youth elder project that was put on by buddies in bad times. And so you know, we were a bunch of elders and a bunch of queer elders and a bunch of queer youth who came together to put on a play. Yeah.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
22:51
Well, it wasn't, it wasn't actually a play. It was always stories, and how they how our stories were interwoven. So the, the underlying theme was the youth performing some live lived experiences of the elders, and vice versa. And each one of us, each queer elder, and each queer youth was telling a story, in tiny skits and how we all work together to make it into a stage performance. Does that sound like it? Laila? Yeah, I
Lila Pine:
23:38
think I mean, it was I thought it was, you know, like, I mean, it was really the, the brainchild of Evelyn What's her last name?
LeZlie Lee Kam:
23:46
Harry.
Lila Pine:
23:47
Yeah, Evelyn Perry. And it but it was, it was amazing. Although I had no idea that it was amazing. until until I told the middle of it. I remember we had this, like, you know, we, the first it was went from September to June when we had our performance was during pride. And I remember not really knowing what we were doing it you know, except for we've done all the creative exercises, and it was a lot of fun. And I really looked forward to every every rehearsal, but then when we got closer to the actual performance itself. You know, we were doing these performance pieces like they were skits we were we sat around a table and had these conversations was like the it was a it was a dinner table and the only conversation The only thing on the menu was conversation and that was you know, really powerful part of the performance itself. But I had no idea what it looks like that's what your your question when you when you said what it looked like because I remember when the when we first went out on stage and we all had our lines, something about the way it Our birth in different different different things that we were sharing with the audience first time we had sex. I don't know, I can't remember all the different things. Age. Yeah. And
LeZlie Lee Kam:
25:13
coming out. Yeah.
Lila Pine:
25:15
And the audience was in stitches. Yeah. And I had no idea until that moment that it was even funny. You know.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
25:25
One of the things too, is we were expecting people to love, but we were not expecting people to cry. Right? What happened that sort of threw us for a loop. So we were right there with the audience. And as Laila said, what you know, you're not expecting certain reactions, and you just keep going with the performance, even though the audience was so viscerally reacting to what was happening.
Lila Pine:
25:59
And we were right in the middle of the audience to so the stage was in the middle of the audience all
LeZlie Lee Kam:
26:03
their audience was on both sides. Yeah.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
26:07
And what do you think about the performance? That really, and you didn't realize people would laugh? People would cry? Yeah. What do you think really made it so visceral for them?
LeZlie Lee Kam:
26:18
Well, for me, what people came up to me and said afterwards, it was it made them think about our lives and what they saw in themselves through our our lives, because everything we did was something that each one of us had lived through. So that was the response I got it was so powerful. They said that made them stop and think it made them realize that, you know, queer youth and queer seniors need to be having conversations. And that's what, so what we are doing now with the app grew out of that stage performance, there was a need, people came to us and said, We want to have these conversations. We've never had the opportunity to see something like this before, where queer youth and queer elders did something like this together. And they thought themselves in every single thing that we did. Lyla is being very modest. One of the highlights of the The production was one of lightless pieces, where she did a strip about that. She always wanted to do that. But it was hot, which was done in terms of her being to spirit and her indigenous culture.
Lila Pine:
27:49
I was a buffalo. Yeah.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
27:52
Yeah.
Lila Pine:
27:54
It was, it was interesting, too. Because, you know, my, my, well, I didn't even think about telling my, we had two performances, right. So the first performance, it never occurred to me to tell anybody about the performance, because I don't know why I just didn't occur to me. And then when my daughter found out about it, she was so mad. And first of all, my
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
28:16
daughter, Oh, my gosh.
Lila Pine:
28:19
Oh, she has her own theater group. So I did tell her about the second one. So she Yeah, she came to the second one and and so then I asked her, I said, you know, why? Why was this good? You know? And she's like, Oh, Mom, You're hopeless.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
28:38
I know we will on for a week.
Lila Pine:
28:41
No, yeah. And so and so but for me, I was a bit nerve wracking for me because I have friends like, you know, first of all my family my grandkids wanted to come and I said, No, there's no way Yeah, so
LeZlie Lee Kam:
28:58
it was a taste will stripping. Yeah.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
29:04
Oh, that's I'm so sad. I did not get to go to this performance. It sounds amazing.
Lila Pine:
29:10
For me, the best part was really not that one. It was even That was fun. That was really fun for me and I really appreciate it the way that it was received by the audience and encouraging me and everything and you know, even Evelyn she brought in a stripper to teach me because I was so bad at it. Yes.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
29:30
performer
Lila Pine:
29:32
Oh, that's right. Sorry. burlesque performer anyway, so I remember the Evelyn saying to somebody afterwards. Um, I knew all she needed was an audience. Right. So
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
29:46
he came alive. Yes. That's amazing. Yeah. Once you have people there and you just got to feel the energy.
Lila Pine:
29:55
For me, the better the more not better. Just like something that I really, that I keep, you know, valued or I don't know, the the best part of it for me in a way was when I did a performance with a young indigenous to spirit individual Tai Chi. Yeah, and we did a performance together. And I got to I, you know, I played the elder, and I like to speak in my language. And it was like, it was kind of like the opening of, you know, sort of like, it was kind of like a land acknowledgement, but not exactly lending knowledge meant was kind of like that. And, you know, it was so great to be able to do that performance with this young, Two Spirit person who had had really not been brought up in their culture at all. Because they did, in fact, they only met their birth mother during the performance, like not at the performance, but during our time together.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
30:58
Yeah. And, and so it sounds like I mean, what an amazing project to be a part of, and one that's so deeply intergenerational and the way that I feel like we have very few of those moments of overlap in terms of those compensations. And Leslie, like you said, it sounds like people were just chomping at the bit to be a part of it. And kind of going back to, you know, your, the kinships, that you had very early on, and then in recognizing that, in this performance, and sharing a lot in terms of how, you know, the Catholic institution, you know, the global enterprise of it, and its colonial institution, sort of, increasingly could just talk, talk a little bit about how most of your relationships to spirituality have changed over time. So maybe starting with, you know, we've heard a little bit about your first kind of exposures to this very cruel and terrible religious setting and how, how, yeah, how that changed for you.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
32:04
Um, well, for me, everything changed when I came out. I mean, I, I had stopped being Catholic. So I say I'm a Catholic and recovery, it. It always was, like I was being shamed. And I could never do anything, right, something as simple as not buttoning the top button in my shirt. And my uniform was a sin. And I just had enough. And then when I came to Toronto, and I got involved when I started University with a woman from Trinidad, who was also going to university here, and we fell in love, but we didn't have any words, we didn't know anything about being lesbian. But she was also deeply Catholic, deeply devout. And it was very hard for her to have relationship because every time we made love, and there was an orgasm, she felt such shame because the truth said, You're not supposed to have sex for pleasure, only to procreate. So that, you know, also was upsetting for me that, hey, I was in love with somebody, and she was so ashamed of our relationship, but we were together. And then, when our relationship was found out, she was sent back to Trinidad in shame. And she was not allowed to have relationships with anybody because her family was shaming her. And my mother tried to do the same thing to me, but I was having none of that. And then I decided that the church had nothing for me. Once I came to Toronto, and I saw how hypocritical My mother was in this relationship with a married man. But she still kept dragging me the choose. And because I was a minor, I had no choice. And then once I started living on my own, I stopped going to church. But then there's this Catholic tradition of Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve. And I would go with her just to be a dutiful daughter and not to make waves in the family. We would go as a family. And one night the priest started preaching about fire and brimstone and hell and damnation and he said, All homosexuals are gonna burn in hell. And I looked at my mother and I, my three brothers were sitting there and they all knew that I was a die cut. nobody did anything. And I got up and I walk out. And my mother said I had shamed her again, how could I do something like that? And I was said, I never went back to the church again. And I said I'd had enough. So I switched over. I was in a coma for back in 2007. And when I came out of the coma, it just shook my whole way of being in the world. I guess cool. Must do that to you. And I started practicing mindfulness. I went, I'm a client of women's health and women's hands. And one of the psychotherapists there Dion curling and I mentioning her name because she saved me. And I started learning mindfulness from her and that's what's kept me grounded. Oh, and the other person who also saved me is Merlin Homer. I don't know if you know, Merlin. No. So Merlin is a therapist and she is indigenous and I call her my magician because leading up to me going into the coma, I was in a coma because of alcohol poisoning. And I had been having a really rough time in terms of using alcohol to cope with the stress of being queer and working in lesbian collectives and being the only outlasts vn. And I discovered Merlin and Merlin also kept me on the you know, sort of the right track, because I had been contemplating suicide. So between Merlin and Dion hair, I am still alive today. And mindfulness is what has kept me going. So I owe nothing to the Catholic Church. And for me, though, it's my spirituality. I believe there's something out there that's bigger than me, but certainly not God in the Catholic Church. So that's my story. And I'm sticking to it. Thank you, Leslie.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
37:19
Thank you for sharing. And Laila. Yeah. How would you describe your relationship to spiritually changing?
Lila Pine:
37:27
Well, yeah, for me, um, I, I'm also another, you know, area that we have in common is, I call myself a Catholic and recovery as well. Um, in some ways that transition for me happened, I guess, part of when I left home as well, I, you know, I mentioned earlier that I ran away when I was 15, because my dad wouldn't leave me alone. So that was, I ended up living when I first went to live with my sister in Halifax. And then she decided that was too much for her. So I ended up. Interestingly enough, I ended up going to university, even though I was 15. And I 15 going on 16. My birthday is in October, and I hadn't finished high school, but I went to. I went to I don't know why I even did this, really. But I went to Mount St. Vincent University. And I spoke with the chaplain there. And I explained my situation, I tried really hard to get a job, but I looked really young. I get I was really young. I guess that's what I'm anyway. So I went to the chaplain at the university, because I had in my head that I was that I should go to university, instead of getting a job because I couldn't get a job. And so I told him my story. And I told him, I hadn't finished high school, but I was smart. And you know, I could do it. And so he arranged for me to write an entrance exam, even though they didn't have entrance exams back then, and I got in. So I went to university and that was a Catholic University. So at first I lived in in the convent with the nuns. And that, for various reasons didn't work out. That could be a whole other story. But so I left the convent and I got involved with kind of through that priest in a way, I got involved with social justice issues. And I become I joined the student Christian movement, which is was mostly Protestant. So I don't know why I did that. But I ended up in the student Christian movement. And it was the student Christian movement was kind of like a movement of university Christians who We're at, you know, sort of interested in social issues and, and I remember going to a meeting that they had at Mount Saint Vincent. And there was a woman who was from the student Christian movement. Her name was Judy, I won't say her last name because she never felt. So I completely fell in love with her. And so I got really involved in this student Christian movement. And somewhere along the line, I was actually in the middle of was at a conference in the middle of giving a paper about issues around like youth participating in social justice issues. And I realized at the middle of this presentation, that I didn't believe in the Catholic Church, I didn't believe in those teachings, you know, there were so many parts of those teachings that I didn't believe in the misogyny, the, you know, all of that, and sort of halfway through this talk, I made that declaration. And much to the chagrin of my that priest, because he was the one who got, you know, got me there at that conference. Remember how angry he was with me. And so that was kind of the break from from the Catholic religion, that was the break. And so it was kind of it was through ish social justice, that I made that break. And, and but it was much, much later, so I didn't really have a religion or even a spirituality, I was very distrustful of any, any thing that smelled religious at all. And so it was, and I wasn't until much, much later that I started to learn my language that I began to connect with the old magma, spiritual beliefs and that, you know, a lot of as I mentioned earlier, like the, the colonizers came here, first, they came to the east coast first. And so, you know, a lot of the magma people are, are Catholic, you know, most, most are Catholic. And so it's hard to find anyone in any of the elders who know anything about the old ways, and, you know, I'm just learning now, like, morning, for example, I just learned that before the settlers came, we used to, when somebody died, we used to, we'd like the anishinabeg would have the fire for for three days, four days, three days, three days and three nights. And then on the fourth day, the body would be placed in a tree and, you know, they would be it would be burned. And that and, you know, I didn't know, you know, there was so there's so many parts of the beliefs that I don't know anything about. But you know, there's a lot of the spirituality is very connected, like the language, the spirituality connected to the land, it's the land teaches us to pray and the land in the water, they teach us to pray, they teach us to, to speak, and they teach us our connection to the ancestors, so I can feel you know, when I walk along, I'm lucky to be living, right? I live, right where the water where the river meets the bay and meets the ocean. Where I am is the rest of us river, but it's flowing right into the bay, which is flowing right into the ocean. And so that,
LeZlie Lee Kam:
43:37
oh, yeah,
Lila Pine:
43:39
that's sort of, you know, and I, when I walk along the beach here, outside my house, I can I know that my grandmother's walk there, too.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
43:52
Mm hmm. And it's interesting that you have that you are drawn to water because it's the same thing for me with the ocean and the sea and the lake. I don't know if it's because I was born in an island or it's just eating me, but I've always been drawn towards her.
Lila Pine:
44:17
Yeah, I think it is in us because we were born here, right? Like you were, were born next to the water. And so when I was living in Toronto, you know, it was, you know, I worked there, I worked at the university there. So, but the pandemic has allowed me to come back home. The other aspect I think of spirituality is I mean, there's, there's not so much a division between your everyday life and spirituality. So one of one things that I noticed here, when I came back, is the gift giving, you know, like gift giving is, to me, what makes us human is that we are gift givers. And that was one of the main things that Johnny Donald and everyone after him tried to squash in us is that is the idea of gift giving. But in gasca, baggy AK the reserve brand that that is still very much alive. So you have, you know, the young people, they get up at four in the morning and go, you know, get a moose for the, you know, first for the community and then for the elders and then for their family. And then and then for the poor people who live outside the reserve. And, you know, soon as the ice freezes over, people are going to be over here, they're going to be smelt fishing, and, you know, it's always for the community first, and then for the elders. And, you know, when I, when I first arrived to get a big x, because I was coming from Toronto, I had to be in quarantine for 14 days. Because of the pandemic, right, and you know, every day there would be cooked meals on my doorstep, and bread on my doorstep and, you know, groceries and. And that's just a part of the way people still are, you know. And that's spirituality too, right? Like, that's the fact that we're responsible for each other. And yes, yeah, well, well, we kiss, we always say, you know, all my relations. Mm hmm. And, you know, and go ahead.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
46:19
And I was just gonna say, it's interesting that you're talking about gift giving, because even though my father did not practice any kind of religion, I don't know why he got this from, but it was the same thing with him and gift giving. Because he grew up my grandfather, my paternal grandfather came from money, but he gambled it all away. So my father and his three brothers and my grandmother were in deep poverty in Trinidad. And my father raised us to always think of other people first. And always to give gifts he said, it doesn't matter how small it is, you always bring something. And now from what I've always done that, and people always comment on it, like it's some big deal. Well, to me, it's not a big deal. Because people are important in your life. And with the with COVID. Now, I it's even more that I have to make sure that people have what they need. Oh, you know, Lyla, when you describe, you know, getting up every day and finding stuff on your doorstep. What was interesting for me was after the announcement was made on the 13th of March that there was going to be a lockdown. The first call I got was from a query use or asking me what I needed. Oh, it was so sweet and lovely. And my query, my query use have been there for me. You know, more so than what you quit this? Yeah. But as you said, Laila spiritualities, more than you know, whatever it is, so it's intrinsic in us, I feel the same way. Yeah. And to come back to where we started, when, when we started the app, I, I felt like I was on the outside. Because I was the only person of color. And then when I kept seeing that lilac challenged me on that, and she says, Well, I'm a person of color to. I'm indigenous and to spirit. So we had this conversation about being outsiders. And I felt that that brought us together. Also. I don't mean that we lie, but I felt that way.
Lila Pine:
48:55
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I don't know if I would have stayed if you weren't there.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
49:00
Same thing, same thing for me, especially when things started falling apart with Mother Superior.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
49:10
A new Mother Superior so being being there for each other in such profound ways, and you know, this is so moving to here and that friendship is feels spiritual to me to hear it the way that you have. You have found that together.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
49:29
Yeah. And we brought food for each other. If you remember that. I
Lila Pine:
49:33
think you brought way more food tonight.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
49:38
I guess. I brought cooked food and you bought me food. That's right. I
Lila Pine:
49:45
forgot about that.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
49:48
Yeah, so we've made that connection. And then we discovered we had all these things in common. I know so even though we will will support
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
49:59
Oh, I guess I have a maybe a final question, being mindful of time. So, we've talked a lot about how this spirituality is intrinsic and is familial is in the land comes from so many different sources in so many different places. And in wondering how your conception of queerness or, or kind of a different gender identities have been to spirit? How, yeah, how does that fit into your conception of spirituality? How do you see those two things working together? Or in conversation with each other?
Lila Pine:
50:39
Well, you know, one thing, that it's interesting, actually, before settlers came to Turtle Island, um, being to spirit, what I mean, nobody called it to spirit, but term that came about in, you know, at a conference in Manitoba in the 90s. But, I mean, it was, it was kind of an umbrella term that people used, because we all have different languages. But the idea of, of gender bending, and, and same sex relationships, and all those things that we think about when we talk, when we think about queer existed in Turtle Island, before settlers came, that was one of the things they tried to stamp out, you know, they were like, Oh, look at these people, they're, you know, there's free with their sexuality. And so, so that was something that was very much a part of the way people were then. But because of, you know, religion, you know, that's, I let you know, people consider that there's a lot of homophobia. And it's, it's kind of a very weird thing. There's a lot of homophobia in the communities. And yet, there's this very fundamental belief that, that is not your right to judge anyone else. So those two things are like always in contradiction with each other, because there is this kind of on this. It's interesting, it's like, on the surface, homophobia, dig deeper. There, because if you dig deeper, it was never there. And you know, and I don't know, I haven't found out about what it was like for MC ma people, but for other indigenous tribes. To spirit people were were revered, and they were the leaders. And they were, you know, like, they were the ones who brought balance, and you know, all kinds of things. And there was, you know, like, in some communities, they actually define genders, you know, you'd have, you know, someone who was born a male who was who was actually females was born female was actually male, somebody who had both. And, you know, there were so many different genders that would that, you know, people referred to.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
53:03
Mm
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
53:05
hmm.
Lila Pine:
53:08
And so the Two Spirit person was kind of the, I don't know, but spiritual person, but they were, you know, the counselors, they were the ones that people went to for consent for advice.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
53:20
And so, along the same lines coming from Trinidad, we have carnival. And Carnival is sort of an excuse for you to be yourself without any judgment. And since I have become an adult, I've realized that Carnival also is an opportunity for gay people, queer people to express themselves. And I have seen pictures of my father in what we would call here drag when he was a young man dressed as a woman. And I've heard stories of him going to the US army base dressed in drag and dressed as a woman and enticing the white American soul is and this is before he was married. So it's interesting you know how there's sort of a similarity that you know, you you have this permission to be this way, only at a particular time of year that you can be free to be yourself and then the rest of the time you're in hiding.
Lila Pine:
54:42
I like to say that we were woke before woke was the thing.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
54:46
Yeah. Was a good way to put it.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
54:53
I really appreciate you sharing what you shared and and hearing about how you found this Connection together I think is is some of the most radical things I can think about. Is this this beautiful friendship. So thank you so much, Leslie in my love for joining me today on queer devotions. It is been a lovely conversation to sit back and be a part of and I hope you both have a lovely rest of your days.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
55:21
You too.
Lila Pine:
55:22
Well Alan M. CIT, nagamma
LeZlie Lee Kam:
55:25
Billa Alan j care.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
55:34
Thank you to Leslie and Lola for sharing their stories, and for being a part of queer devotions. I really felt honored speaking to them, and being a part of that conversation for the rest of seniors day. This morning at 11. We have a panel on spirituality and aging, and Leslie will return again joined by Susan gatka, who you may have heard on Friday on this podcast, and moderated by Ty Sloane. Later in the day at one we will be having a discussion on affirming kinships the significance of chosen families to to LGBTQ older adults with wonderful academics and community organizers involved. Finally this evening we are very pleased to have a drag performance from Carmen del Rey the drag performer and we will also be having a queer broidery workshop with two wonderful artists who are joining us at four. Please let us know if you have any troubles joining info at rainbow faith in freedom.org. We are also active on our Facebook so also reach us there thanks so much
