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Hey everyone, Varun Rajan here.
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Welcome back to the Push-Pull podcast, where we interview people about their career transitions, specifically the push and pull factors that inform those transitions.
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today we're picking up with part two of my conversation with Dr.
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Jess Mendoza, a cognitive psychologist and UX researcher with an extraordinary ability to connect the dots between systems and people, between tech and human empathy.
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In the first part of our conversation, we followed her amazing story going from being deeply ensconced in the world of academia into how she eventually pivoted into UX research, in technology and in the corporate world.
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in this half of the conversation, we shift gears into the workplace.
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How Jess thinks about her role today, what motivates her and why she continues to take on meaningful side quests, that build community and spark curiosity, across her organization.
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we also talk about ai.
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Jess is somebody who is earnestly trying to understand how AI fits into her own day-to-day, and she's a huge advocate.
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For using AI day-to-day on the job and basically trying to figure out how to roll out more AI tooling literacy in the organization that she works at today, We talk about how AI is actually changing, how people learn, communicate, and make decisions at work, and what skills matter most in this new era.
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She really breaks it down with a lot of clarity, warmth, and a ton of lived insight in terms of the conversation she's been having with her own colleagues on how to encourage adoption in her organization and how to understand where the gaps are.
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In learning when it comes to driving that adoption in the first place.
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you know, I've had a lot of conversations with people about AI and will likely have more on the podcast going forward, I think it's very.
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Easy to get deep into the weeds about specifics of different tools.
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But what I really appreciate about Jess is she makes the trends that she's seeing in terms of AI adoption in the workplace very accessible.
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I think the way that she approaches it will help you feel a lot more at ease about Getting a little bit more curious and tech forward, uh, when it comes to using AI tools or how to even think about how it might be able to help you in your day-to-day work.
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If you're navigating change at work, wondering how to bring more of yourself to the job, or trying to stay grounded as technology evolves, this episode is for you.
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So without any further ado, let's dive in.
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cool.
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Jess: tell me a little bit about, what else is important to you today?
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What are the kinds of things you're doing on the job?
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Tell me, whatever you can or are excited about with respect to your side quest.
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you've obviously been in UX research for quite some time now.
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and you're also obviously thinking a lot about jobs and careers and the way that they're evolving.
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tell me a little bit about what you care about, and, what are the things that you're actively exploring, whether it's on the job or, offline.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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I'll start with on the job, since we're on that topic, or since that's where we left off.
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So on the job, I continue to have these side quests, like when I got there, I created this community being remote.
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I was worried about how am I gonna.
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Build a relationship with my peers because I'm three hours behind.
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I'm in Pacific Time, they're in East Coast time, and so one of the first things I did was I created this little Yammer Viva Engage Microsoft Gauge community of.
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Just having a place for us to share our creative version of ourselves.
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And so through that, I started to know other people in the department, other people outside of the department and what their hobbies were.
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And so we had that bridge of, Hey, here's something we both enjoy, we're good at doing, or we're interested in doing.
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And that bonds us together.
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So when we're struggling with the role, or if I had any questions, I already felt okay, I have the supportive network to go to.
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We have this relationship already.
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I can be open and say, Hey, I don't know anything right now about X, Y, and Z.
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Could you point me in the right direction or resource that I could get my hands-on?
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that was really helpful.
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Then as I progressed in, my time at this organization, I got involved with.
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Something called agile transformation.
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So we're helping the organization be more agile, understand the principles of the Agile manifesto.
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My favorite principle is people over processes.
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Probably you could guess because I do value that human to human connection and that quality of getting to know your peers.
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And I think the reason why I value that so much is because.
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We are just so used to clocking in, clocking out, but there's a lot of untapped richness in those interactions that you have with your peers in the day.
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if you think about it, we spend a lot more time at work than we do our loved ones sometimes, and I want to make that experience.
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experience all around.
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And I try to get to know others in a way that makes them feel seen, because that's what I would want as well.
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So I think that's something I'm really passionate about.
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And recently I've been helping with technology adoption in the sense of understanding these AI tools, what they are not, what's the limitations of them, what's under the hood, and.
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How does your personal learning style influence how you use these tools?
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So making some presentations for the people in my organization to understand like, this isn't scary, like it can be, it definitely can be.
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but it doesn't have to be
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a couple more threads I'm noticing, there's a parallel with your time in grad school where one of the first things that you felt like you really had to do being in a new place for the first time was.
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Trying to build that sense of community and support network and trying to connect with people as people, because you were going through something together.
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And so the relationship building was I.
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Your instinctual first step when you were in a new environment.
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And it sounds like, one of the side quests on the job was also a community building relationship building initiative.
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and the kind of first couple of things that you talked about here we're very much about okay, how do I set up something where we can connect with each other?
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We're at work, more than we are at home, during our waking hours.
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So it's important that we are able to be on the same page or build a support network to be there for one another and stuff like that.
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I'm curious if you had drawn the same parallel.
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but I think it's really cool.
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Honestly, I hadn't, like when you said that, I was just like having a moment in my brain, I was like, holy crap, I never noticed that about me So that's really cool.
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I appreciate that you highlighted that.
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I honestly hadn't noticed that was like a theme, but you're right.
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Like now, that I hear that I am like, yeah, you're right.
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I definitely did gravitate towards I need to have this community.
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I want, I felt that sense of loneliness in grad school because I didn't have that network that I was thinking like, you know what comes with those feelings or anxiety, stress, sometimes depression.
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And I was just like, I know the statistics of this one.
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Out of every five Americans.
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Will or already have a mental disparity.
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And that can range from the ones I just mentioned to other spectrums of it.
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And so I carry that with me.
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And being in the UX community full of people with empathy and so it was really easy for me to.
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Let them know Hey, I also wanna improve the human experience beyond the screen by building this little community.
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Even though course that's not where we're gonna live in the next eight hours 'cause we're here to work.
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But it does help you feel closer together with those that you're collaborating with.
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Like you get to see them as a person and when you hear them being frustrated about something, you can understand that, like that frustration.
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It's not necessarily about you, but maybe there's something that could be done to help both of you get on the same page together again.
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So I, yeah, I hadn't noticed that theme, so thanks for pointing that out.
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No, totally.
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one of the things that I'm curious about is, thinking about the side quests that you have at work, and you're really excited talking about pursuing those things.
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I'm curious about what makes an environment.
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Conducive to somebody being able to put their creative energy into something that wasn't in the job description that they necessarily signed up for, but they're really passionate to, to pursue while on the job.
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do you feel supported in that?
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And what do you think are the components of an environment that encourages that amongst their employees?
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Yeah.
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So I would say yes, I did feel supported.
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It was a big contrast for me because.
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When I first joined the organization, like they had these little things called friendship calls.
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And so you just get to know your team member for an hour or 30 minutes and just get to know them for who they are, what they do, what's their role, what product do they work on.
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they also had this, this little intake form that they gave us.
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And I really appreciate the leaders who made this because.
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I am, of course I'm a nerd for behavioral data.
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And they had this thing where it's like people's communication styles.
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So I was like, oh yes, I love that they have that.
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'cause I was gonna ask them if we could do it and they already had it.
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So that was great.
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And I use the crap out of
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Wow.
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I always go back and reflect of okay, this is how this person wants to be communicated with.
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It's not always going to be like pinpoint accurate, but it helps you navigate these cross collaborations 'cause you're working with.
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A lot of people with a lot of different, projects on their hands and to understand okay, if this person's a visual, let me make sure I always present with them visual.
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If this person's a talker, let me be prepared to write down my key points in advance.
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So that I can listen first and then I'll have something, so I won't forget what I said.
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'cause sometimes you could get in between of like interrupting each other.
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not because you're trying to be rude, but because you get excited about it when you're having that experience that you're like, wait, I forgot.
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so I do feel like I was, I was really supported.
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but there was also some times where I was struggling.
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Where I was just not knowing where to put my focus 'cause I was learning so much on the job.
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And then again came that feeling of, oh my gosh, like I have to perform as best as I can here.
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I always ask what does success look like and what does failure look like?
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That's always my number one question with interviews.
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And even after the interview, I wanna know, I remember at my performance review, my first question was, how do you get fired?
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What are you gonna do to get fired?
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So I know not to do those things to get fired, and I was just always on the edge of if I make this mistake, like I'm not, I felt like I had something to prove that I might not have the business acumen.
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I might not have the industry knowledge per se, but I do bring value here and I felt like I had to push for that.
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And it was just hard because the business pace is way different than academia academia is like a lot slower because you have to look at every single thing.
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And so having to really understand quickly.
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much do I need to know before I can keep moving forward is enough so I feel confident that is going in the right direction.
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And that took me a while to get, but I did have support, from my manager at the time, from my peers at the time.
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And even now, I would say the composition of our department has changed.
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Like we've grown.
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And I do still feel supported and now I feel supported even from other departments.
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So like we have the AI department now that's, so we have AI and UX and I feel a lot of support in that department and other people who I've networked with from my other side Quest, when I was on the DEI council, I made friends with people there too.
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So I, I built that network to help me and I could go to them and ask them like.
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Is this typical of what should be happening right now?
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And if it's not, how can I improve?
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I'm always seeking that feedback so I can recalibrate myself and improve myself.
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when you start off on a new initiative, that you come up with, are there folks that you have to convince?
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Have you learned how to do that better over time?
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curious about how, or maybe it's about advocating to join a new initiative that you see.
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Maybe it's with AI or something like that.
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I'd be curious about an example of.
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self-advocacy, for yourself to be working on something that you want to,
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Yeah, so I remember thinking I wanted to get more hands-on experience with we can improve like our communication when it comes to cross collaborations.
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Because again, like sometimes the onboarding will happen really fast, and this is something that's not unique to this organization.
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By the way,
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I.
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is something I hear from peers.
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Across the industry.
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Sometimes onboarding happens too fast and the expectations aren't set.
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And I think having those conversations in place, and that's where Agile comes in hand, comes in handy.
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It's you have these ceremonies like whether it's your weekly standups or daily standups, and you have your retrospective of things that went right, things that didn't go right, things that could have gone better, what should we do more of?
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What should we do Less of those things.
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Are all things that everyone is there to, they're open to changing and I think that's what makes it, an environment where somebody can really flourish there.
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That they do prioritize people over processes.
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They, the organization also.
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Wants people to embrace this growth mindset.
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And of course, I love learning.
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Like I actually have a bunch of books stacked up to hold the microphone up right now, that I was reading.
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But yeah, so having leaders that want you to grow so much that even if you grow into a different department, they're okay with that.
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Now, of course, there's processes in place, but it's like they, they want you to do it in a certain way so that.
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They wanna set you up for success.
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Yeah.
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part I do think is here because I don't hear a lot of stories of other organizations like that.
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So I'm very grateful for the opportunity that I have here.
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But of course, anywhere you go, you're gonna find pluses and minuses in the experience
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Of course.
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Yeah.
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But that's really fascinating to hear.
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I've been reading this book about how to help people.
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essentially I've been reading a bunch of books about people finding the right fit at a workplace and what that means and how employers can think about, like helping their employees like fit into the role that's right for them once they have them.
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It's a couple of different books.
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so that, that whole aspect of things is super interesting to me right now.
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I might try to, I might try to reach out again and ask more questions about how things operate there, because it sounds like a very interesting, set of,
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radical Candor?
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I,
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I have, yes.
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that's a
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it was a while ago actually, but yeah, it's a great book.
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a great one.
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Yeah, so that one too, like having that whole feedback and accountability of your work, but also understanding that communication piece of if you're struggling, don't suffer in silence.
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make sure you say something, shout out to somebody, that you feel comfortable with.
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And I think.
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Having that transparency in leadership, like they do keep us involved in the conversations when there's certain decisions being made, and they keep us in conversations when it comes to career growth.
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Hey, how satisfied are you guys right now where you're at?
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Where could we do better?
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They have those conversations and I don't, as far as I know, I don't hear that.
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Other organizations do that a lot according to.
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comments I've heard from my peers, like they don't do that everywhere.
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So that is something that, that's super useful, to wanna learn from your team and not necessarily dictate everything that they do.
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give them some autonomy, trust them that they come to work because they want to do well.
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Nobody shows up to work saying, I'm going to do all these mistakes today and see what happens.
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Okay.
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we've been talking about you being in an environment that's really conducive to you being able to learn and grow and flex different muscles.
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so the question is, what would it look like if companies were actually designed for connection and not just productivity?
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And what would that mean for the company?
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Yeah, In a perfect world, if I were in charge of that, I think it would
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Of course.
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understanding the composition of who's coming to work.
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Like understanding what do they need to be set up for success what are challenges that they typically face, and how can the company and their collaborators support them in that space.
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So that kind of goes to speak about.
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Challenges with neurodiversity.
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if we all were more cognizant of, maybe we want to be a little bit more objective in the way that we're talking and not necessarily use all these weird phrases like blue skies.
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Like just say we're starting from ground zero, we're doing up, that can be confusing.
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and understanding that people, they're there fill a role, but they also have their own dreams and their own goals.
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And they are, I think they should be allowed to grow in that space too.
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I don't think that should be seen as like a threat of oh no, my resource is going no, your resource is evolving, and now they can train another person to fill that role.
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Yeah.
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so looking at it like that and then the worklife balance too, I think that's really important.
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Like I read somewhere and don't quote me on this because I don't know the statistics on that, but I did read that there was a study where people were.
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Asked a survey if they would be willing to pay, willing to get paid less if it meant that they could do a four day work week.
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And I know in Iceland for sure, people are doing a four day work week and they're having success with it now.
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Not everyone's gonna find that success, obviously.
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if you're in the medical field, you can't just be like, sorry
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Of course,
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to have your heart attacks another day or something like that.
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you can't do that.
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right.
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understanding that like people.
00:18:40.497 --> 00:18:42.567
Are here to live.
00:18:42.567 --> 00:18:44.576
They're not born to work.
00:18:44.576 --> 00:18:49.886
We are working so that we can afford to have a nice life and experience.
00:18:49.886 --> 00:18:59.686
the little joys in life, whether that be with your grandparents, your friends, or if you have kids, your children or your pets, is the purpose of our work.
00:18:59.686 --> 00:19:01.366
And when you come into work, you're.
00:19:01.366 --> 00:19:07.561
People will talk about bringing their authentic selves, but I know it's not always the case that everyone can safely feel that way.
00:19:07.561 --> 00:19:23.102
There are some populations that are facing different experiences than others, and I think bringing awareness to, okay, if that's something that's present in, in the world today, what can this organization do to level the ground?
00:19:23.102 --> 00:19:26.221
What opportunities can we share that everyone can have access to?
00:19:26.221 --> 00:19:29.192
What resource can we share that everyone has access to?
00:19:29.192 --> 00:19:34.801
And do we have these checks and balances in place to make sure that the opportunities are being dispersed fairly?
00:19:34.801 --> 00:19:43.592
So I think, yeah, and that, that's how I would see it if it was designed for that connection, because your employees wouldn't just be there for the paycheck.
00:19:43.592 --> 00:19:46.221
They'd be there for the experience of I know these people.
00:19:46.221 --> 00:19:51.261
This is my community, this is my village, and these are the people I wanna be productive with.
00:19:51.261 --> 00:19:52.132
This is my team.
00:19:53.001 --> 00:19:53.571
Yeah.
00:19:53.571 --> 00:20:02.672
My last guest actually was saying that the research shows that someone is more likely to stay at a job if they feel like they have friends at work, right?
00:20:02.672 --> 00:20:06.902
and that can go into some pretty toxic directions, right?
00:20:06.902 --> 00:20:09.182
if you're trauma bonded to a bunch of people.
00:20:09.182 --> 00:20:11.241
I think, folks who have worked at a bunch of.
00:20:11.241 --> 00:20:13.567
Startups, can attest to that to some degree.
00:20:13.567 --> 00:20:15.626
but, but yeah, I think it makes sense, right?
00:20:15.626 --> 00:20:19.686
If you have healthy relationships with your colleagues, that's something that goes a long way.
00:20:19.686 --> 00:20:24.122
And I also like the, what, it really resonated with me what you said about.
00:20:24.122 --> 00:20:44.507
Flexing into new and different roles, and having your employer see that as an opportunity for new value rather than losing a resource like you have a resource that's involving into something new that can actually benefit the company and then train and hire somebody else to take care of the responsibilities, that the first person.
00:20:44.507 --> 00:20:47.912
Once had as, as part of their job description.
00:20:47.912 --> 00:20:53.342
I think that kind of thinking is a lot more kind of like abundance thinking versus scarcity thinking.
00:20:53.342 --> 00:21:00.126
Where it's okay, like what's the opportunity if this person moves away from this world that we direly need to keep, that seat filled for whatever reason.
00:21:00.126 --> 00:21:01.146
That's super helpful.
00:21:01.146 --> 00:21:01.997
thank you.
00:21:01.997 --> 00:21:11.537
curious, you've been involved in rolling out understanding of AI across your company and trying to get people to be a little bit more comfortable with it.
00:21:11.537 --> 00:21:18.257
So I am curious about some things when it comes to AI being used in the workplace.
00:21:18.257 --> 00:21:26.376
How is AI already reshaping how knowledge workers, people in corporate, how people think, And collaborate.
00:21:26.376 --> 00:21:27.126
What are you seeing?
00:21:28.247 --> 00:21:28.636
Yeah.
00:21:28.636 --> 00:21:33.166
So one, I wanna start with something interesting about prompting that I learned.
00:21:33.166 --> 00:21:36.406
So I remember having a discussion with a colleague.
00:21:36.406 --> 00:21:43.451
I respect very much because they're so adept in AI and technology in general.
00:21:43.451 --> 00:21:53.021
I remember thinking like, Hey, we really need to focus on how can we bring AI literacy to the table and get people to understand how to interact with these tools.
00:21:53.021 --> 00:21:55.811
And prompting is like the main way that people interact.
00:21:55.811 --> 00:21:58.142
And they were like, oh, I don't know if that will be a need be.
00:21:58.142 --> 00:21:58.741
'cause you could just.
00:21:58.741 --> 00:22:00.076
Converse with them.
00:22:00.076 --> 00:22:03.797
Like you converse with the LLMs just like you would a person and it does its thing.
00:22:03.797 --> 00:22:08.596
And I was like, yeah, but not everyone converses the same way.
00:22:08.596 --> 00:22:20.567
So if my prompt and your prompt, like we were asked to build something, but we have a totally different scope of how we perceive that think we want and the output.
00:22:20.567 --> 00:22:22.862
It's gonna look different for everyone.
00:22:22.862 --> 00:22:26.672
It kind of reminds me of the phrase like, everywhere you go, there you are.
00:22:26.672 --> 00:22:30.542
So if you make this prompt and you're like, oh, I don't know.
00:22:30.542 --> 00:22:31.261
I don't like the output.
00:22:31.261 --> 00:22:34.501
what was your input and what did you know about your input?
00:22:34.501 --> 00:22:38.582
the way that you prompt is really a reflection of how you articulate your thoughts.
00:22:38.582 --> 00:22:50.231
And there are different sort of prompting styles that can help you, train of thought or step-by-step or sequential prompts or even asking it to role play, even dictating those specific prompts.
00:22:50.231 --> 00:22:56.442
it really ties down to how are you gonna communicate that to someone or something else.
00:22:56.442 --> 00:23:03.971
And so then we started rolling up these workshops of okay, this is how you might wanna consider prompting and here's some shortcuts of how to do it.
00:23:03.971 --> 00:23:06.057
but yeah.
00:23:06.561 --> 00:23:17.632
what do you think as you're doing some of these prompting workshops and talking to people that you work with about how to approach these tools, what is the skill?
00:23:17.632 --> 00:23:20.642
and I'm thinking cognitive skill, emotional skill, et cetera.
00:23:20.642 --> 00:23:28.011
what skill do you think will become more important in an AI powered workplace as these technologies evolve?
00:23:28.696 --> 00:23:37.096
Yeah, I would say the number one skill is critical thinking, and the top close one would be communication.
00:23:37.096 --> 00:23:40.457
so with critical thinking, it's a lot that encompasses that.
00:23:40.457 --> 00:23:50.416
That's like reasoning decision making, being able to understand, you are using your judgments and you have to follow up with, okay, this is the output.
00:23:50.416 --> 00:23:52.807
What do I know about this?
00:23:52.807 --> 00:23:59.106
To be able to assess primary and secondary resources and compare it to make sure it's right or it's accurate.
00:23:59.106 --> 00:24:09.757
That, and then having a little bit of curiosity into the subjects that you're trying to learn more of to helps because let's say I wanted to learn about programming.
00:24:09.757 --> 00:24:12.386
if I'm asking Chad GPT to do this.
00:24:12.386 --> 00:24:15.521
Prompt a Python script to create a game.
00:24:15.521 --> 00:24:23.172
If I know nothing about programming, then I'm not gonna be able to dictate a better prompt to say, I want it to be 3D, or I want it to.
00:24:23.172 --> 00:24:30.071
When two worms crash together, I'm thinking of like the worm game now or the snake game, bringing back the Nokia snake game.
00:24:30.071 --> 00:24:32.321
If they crash together, they're gonna blow up.
00:24:32.321 --> 00:24:35.041
But what kind of software environment do they need?
00:24:35.041 --> 00:24:36.362
I need a virtual environment.
00:24:36.362 --> 00:24:38.102
I need this Python library.
00:24:38.102 --> 00:24:42.082
I need, to have the user interface perform a certain way needs to adhere to.
00:24:42.082 --> 00:24:47.057
Web and content accessibility guidelines so that the contrast as well.
00:24:47.057 --> 00:24:53.807
So it's like having that background knowledge will supplement how much you're able to with your prompt.
00:24:53.807 --> 00:25:06.136
And even if you don't have that background knowledge, I mean there's these two arguments I'm seeing of there's gonna be no experts anymore, or you have to be an expert to use these tools or you don't have to be an expert at all to use these tools.
00:25:06.136 --> 00:25:16.836
So there's like these schools of thought going on and I feel Yes, to some extent you have to know about what you're working with to understand how to interact and get the right outcome.
00:25:16.836 --> 00:25:25.146
But I don't wanna go as far as saying, Hey, you guys need to all get a PhD To interact with these tools like that is not the case.
00:25:25.146 --> 00:25:34.396
you need to know just enough about the subject and know it well to be able to understand and assess what that output is and make sure it's guiding you in that right direction.
00:25:35.356 --> 00:25:40.457
Yeah, so so in terms of the skills, you need communication, obviously.
00:25:40.457 --> 00:25:44.017
and I hear like curiosity and judgment, right?
00:25:44.017 --> 00:25:47.227
So it's like you can't, and I'm hearing this a lot about, I.
00:25:47.227 --> 00:25:48.817
LLM outputs.
00:25:48.817 --> 00:25:51.247
You can't just take them at face value.
00:25:51.247 --> 00:26:02.076
You have to have some discernment, some way to actually judge and decide whether it's high quality and whether you can use that output or figure out how you would want to edit it, adjust it, et cetera.
00:26:02.076 --> 00:26:15.467
But then curiosity was something that you brought up, which is go that extra step of if you're not an expert in what you're trying to generate, you still have to have enough curiosity to be able to have that judgment and discernment, especially if you're not.
00:26:15.467 --> 00:26:21.832
A domain expert in the thing that you're actually trying to generate, you wanna say okay, is this the right thing?
00:26:21.832 --> 00:26:23.122
What else do I need?
00:26:23.122 --> 00:26:26.721
The ability to continue to follow up, because these tools aren't magic.
00:26:26.721 --> 00:26:30.932
They just don't con, convey, whatever is in your brain.
00:26:30.932 --> 00:26:33.152
You have to figure out the right way to put it down on paper.
00:26:33.152 --> 00:26:33.791
so to speak.
00:26:33.791 --> 00:26:38.451
you have to figure out what you're getting back, like what else do you need in order to make your thing work?
00:26:38.451 --> 00:26:49.146
and you have to have the drive to be able to search for all of the kind of ancillary knowledge around that to figure out what you're actually building or what you're actually trying to achieve, with the tools that you have.
00:26:49.852 --> 00:26:52.912
Yeah, and you have to be open to challenging yourself.
00:26:52.912 --> 00:26:59.902
Like I, in addition to asking it to provide me feedback when I'm writing something or to help me learn a thing, I'll ask it.
00:26:59.902 --> 00:27:00.922
Where am I struggling?
00:27:00.922 --> 00:27:03.277
What do I not know enough about yet?
00:27:03.277 --> 00:27:04.836
And where can I get those resources?
00:27:04.836 --> 00:27:06.636
Could you provide me with those links?
00:27:06.636 --> 00:27:08.916
And then I go through and check those links?
00:27:08.916 --> 00:27:10.567
'cause sometimes those links are fake.
00:27:10.567 --> 00:27:11.826
It
00:27:12.126 --> 00:27:12.616
Totally.
00:27:12.916 --> 00:27:18.067
and either, either they're fake or either they're expired links and it's not always unintentional.
00:27:18.067 --> 00:27:19.957
Like I don't think it's out of malice at all.
00:27:19.957 --> 00:27:24.696
I think it's just, it's a tool that was changed on this large set of data that was unlabeled.
00:27:24.696 --> 00:27:26.257
So it's bound to make some errors.
00:27:26.257 --> 00:27:28.596
And that's again, where you go in the loop.
00:27:28.596 --> 00:27:30.067
You are the human in the loop.
00:27:30.067 --> 00:27:32.376
So I always like to say the you in the loop.
00:27:33.172 --> 00:27:33.711
Yeah.
00:27:33.711 --> 00:27:34.372
Yeah.
00:27:34.372 --> 00:27:35.152
I love that.
00:27:35.152 --> 00:27:47.561
you've obviously made a pretty significant career pivot, and you went through a lot and kept yourself very open and earnest in searching for the new career trajectory that you have today.
00:27:47.561 --> 00:27:53.051
tell me a little bit about the kinds of folks that you see struggling in the job market today.
00:27:53.051 --> 00:28:03.152
how does being at work, show up differently for first gen professionals or career switchers, whether it's being at work or, searching for work.
00:28:03.152 --> 00:28:05.521
Do you have a sense of what they're push and pull factors are?
00:28:05.521 --> 00:28:06.632
What are they looking for?
00:28:06.632 --> 00:28:08.011
What are they avoiding?
00:28:08.011 --> 00:28:14.382
yeah, who do you see struggling today and what are the trends that, that you see with them, and how would you advise them to move forward?
00:28:14.951 --> 00:28:17.372
Yeah, I see different groups struggling.
00:28:17.372 --> 00:28:20.342
There's like a group of new graduates that might be struggling.
00:28:20.342 --> 00:28:29.102
There's a group of career pivoters, and then there's also the groups of people who have a lot of experience but have been unfortunately laid off from their organizations.
00:28:29.102 --> 00:28:33.122
And so you have those three lumps in the job market pool.
00:28:33.122 --> 00:28:42.541
And then you also have international workers too, who are, so that's, a fourth lump in this job market pool of people competing for these jobs.
00:28:42.541 --> 00:28:48.162
it, each pool has their own different struggle.
00:28:48.162 --> 00:28:54.311
The season workers will have been let go, might be deemed as overqualified now.
00:28:54.311 --> 00:28:58.017
The new people that just graduated don't have enough experience.
00:28:58.017 --> 00:29:06.116
Now the pivots are fighting between to get squeezed in, and then the international people are like, Hey, I just, I really wanna stay here.
00:29:06.116 --> 00:29:07.436
can I get hired somewhere?
00:29:07.436 --> 00:29:11.102
a lot of things that are in and out of people's control.
00:29:11.102 --> 00:29:12.902
In psychology, there is this concept called.
00:29:12.902 --> 00:29:16.916
The internal locus of control and then the external locus of control.
00:29:16.916 --> 00:29:18.422
Have you heard of that
00:29:18.721 --> 00:29:19.321
Yeah.
00:29:19.321 --> 00:29:19.646
Yes.
00:29:19.737 --> 00:29:20.156
1 0 1?
00:29:20.156 --> 00:29:20.906
Yeah.
00:29:20.906 --> 00:29:30.007
So like for anyone listening who hasn't, the internal locus of control is focusing on the things that you have influence over directly.
00:29:30.007 --> 00:29:39.727
So for example, you have a certain amount of hours after work that you have to go to the gym, go do fun stuff, and then.
00:29:39.727 --> 00:29:44.576
If you'd like to carve out to study things that you want to learn.
00:29:44.576 --> 00:29:47.336
external things are things you can't control.
00:29:47.336 --> 00:29:51.926
So let's say on the way to the gym, you get a flat tire, you can't beat yourself up over that.
00:29:51.926 --> 00:29:53.606
That's something you cannot control.
00:29:53.606 --> 00:29:54.926
It's gotta let it go.
00:29:54.926 --> 00:30:05.007
The job market right now, a lot of companies shifting because they're, some companies are trying to automate things, which are reducing the resources that are opportunities for people to get hired.
00:30:05.007 --> 00:30:09.116
You cannot control that, unfortunately, but what you can control is.
00:30:09.116 --> 00:30:12.402
What direction can I bring myself into?
00:30:12.402 --> 00:30:20.652
Where can I see this like concept of things that I'm good at, things I could get paid for, and the demand that is there.
00:30:20.652 --> 00:30:27.761
And sometimes that will look different for different people that might look like contracting roles at the beginning.
00:30:27.761 --> 00:30:38.142
Those contracting roles might turn into a full-time job, or those contracting roles might turn into this experience that you have to become an entrepreneur and open your own consultancy.
00:30:38.142 --> 00:30:43.271
And then see a lot of younger generations doing their content creation and their.
00:30:43.271 --> 00:30:44.696
Really good at it.
00:30:44.696 --> 00:30:46.076
Like it's so easy for them.
00:30:47.636 --> 00:30:48.057
Yeah,
00:30:48.146 --> 00:30:49.916
like, I'm so comfortable for this camera.
00:30:49.916 --> 00:30:51.537
And I'm like, good for you, because I'm not,
00:30:53.547 --> 00:30:54.987
it's harder than it looks for sure.
00:30:55.287 --> 00:30:55.852
really is.
00:30:55.852 --> 00:31:09.176
So those are the groups that I see struggling and like what I would do is just focus on what you do, have control over and keep one foot in front of the other and something, one of my colleagues, Joaquin Malata, founder of the Swarm community.
00:31:09.176 --> 00:31:18.951
Advise me is do what you can when you can, because there's gonna be times where you can't do anything about it, and you shouldn't feel guilty about resting.
00:31:18.951 --> 00:31:21.682
Resting is a part of that process.
00:31:21.682 --> 00:31:24.332
As much as you think oh, I'm not doing anything.
00:31:24.332 --> 00:31:25.622
Yes, you are.
00:31:25.622 --> 00:31:30.721
You're allowing your body to heal, regenerate, and be stronger for when you hit the ground again the next day.
00:31:31.582 --> 00:31:36.471
Seeing rest as productive is an incredibly important mindset shift.
00:31:36.471 --> 00:31:37.767
Yeah, absolutely.
00:31:37.767 --> 00:31:38.747
I.
00:31:38.747 --> 00:31:39.487
Jess.
00:31:39.487 --> 00:31:40.057
Thank you.
00:31:40.057 --> 00:31:43.676
any other words of wisdom you would like to leave with the audience?
00:31:43.676 --> 00:31:45.866
or any other, shout outs you'd like to make?
00:31:46.227 --> 00:31:46.527
Yeah.
00:31:46.527 --> 00:31:47.037
Thank you.
00:31:47.037 --> 00:31:50.017
let me get some shout outs here so yeah, I mentioned Joaquin Melara, founder of the Swarm Community, really great community to be a part of. They do a lot of events for people to learn about AI literacy, responsible AI use, and how to pivot from design. Anne Cantera and Mahnaz Hajesmaeili,
They have a podcast called, I think it's DESIGNathon, and they're talking about like different pivots into the world of conversation design and voice design. also Yadi Arroyo. She's been, I wanna call her like a fairy godmother because she's very positive. Like I'm going through something at work.
I'll be like, Kadi, is this. Is this typical or am I just like in my own head and like she'll just have a small conversation with me and I feel a lot better? Dr. Gyles Morrison, he's in the UK and he does career coaching. He actually coined this term called clinical ux, where he tries, I wouldn't say he tries.
He does a lot of work and trying to change the landscape of. The clinical world and making it a more user-friendly place for everyone, and not just in the sense of developing the technology, but also the services around that, which is really important given that there's so many. Variations of care that different populations receive.
that's critical in today's world. And Cynthia Leimbach, she's the founder of LA Health now, and I had the pleasure of working with her to get that up and going along with, Nick Thomson, ChinonsoUgwu, Susanne Loeber, and Barend Jungerius. So I know there's probably some names that I'm leaving out because. The list goes on and on. there's a lot of people I have to think in this journey. but yeah.
00:33:28.366 --> 00:33:30.836
We don't get anywhere without the help of other people, totally.
00:33:31.301 --> 00:33:31.481
You
00:33:31.676 --> 00:33:32.007
Yeah.
00:33:32.531 --> 00:33:36.701
like it, it does, it's lonely at first when you're like, oh, I don't know what to do.
00:33:36.701 --> 00:33:40.902
And then you get outta your head and you figure out that everyone didn't know what to do at the beginning.
00:33:40.902 --> 00:33:42.672
You just gotta start somewhere.
00:33:42.672 --> 00:33:44.231
And it's okay to start.
00:33:44.231 --> 00:33:46.961
ground zero, it's okay to not know nothing.
00:33:46.961 --> 00:33:49.602
That's actually an opportunity to grow right there.
00:33:49.602 --> 00:33:51.491
Like that's a push and pull moment for you.
00:33:52.626 --> 00:33:55.207
anything else that you wanna leave us with
00:33:55.557 --> 00:33:55.916
Yeah.
00:33:55.916 --> 00:34:01.376
I would say the last thing is, think about the human experience and what you can do to advocate to enhance that.
00:34:01.376 --> 00:34:08.501
Because as we're moving on in this rapid pace of technology, you're gonna see a lot of.
00:34:08.501 --> 00:34:13.496
Things changing in relation to the interface, how we interact with our interfaces.
00:34:13.496 --> 00:34:20.606
But something that's gonna stay constant is our ability to remain connected to one another and see each other as we are, as people.
00:34:20.606 --> 00:34:26.487
Like just lead with compassion and kindness when you can and when you're in a position to help others.
00:34:26.487 --> 00:34:27.266
Help others.
00:34:27.266 --> 00:34:29.456
But of course, also balance that.
00:34:29.456 --> 00:34:32.396
Don't overextend yourself 'cause you can't pour from an empty cup.
00:34:32.396 --> 00:34:36.157
That is something I've learned the hard way, just make sure like you're.
00:34:36.157 --> 00:34:40.536
You're not closing the gate or like kicking the ladder behind you.
00:34:40.536 --> 00:34:42.706
Like when others win, you win too.
00:34:42.706 --> 00:34:43.547
It comes right back.
00:34:43.547 --> 00:34:44.476
It always comes back.
00:34:44.476 --> 00:34:49.757
Like I, I strongly believe in that success is tied to other success and vice versa.
00:34:49.757 --> 00:34:55.126
Like the community really has a way of lifting you when you're feeling at your lowest.
00:34:55.126 --> 00:34:57.586
And I just wanna see more of that in the world.
00:34:57.586 --> 00:34:58.536
so yeah.
00:34:59.617 --> 00:35:00.097
Yeah.
00:35:00.097 --> 00:35:06.257
I appreciate you ending with and putting out a call for more positivity in the world, Jess.
00:35:06.257 --> 00:35:12.697
So thank you so much, for being here with me, letting me ask you a bunch of questions and sharing your story with us.
00:35:12.697 --> 00:35:13.746
super appreciate it.
00:35:13.746 --> 00:35:15.516
Of course.
00:35:15.516 --> 00:35:16.237
Absolutely.
00:35:16.237 --> 00:35:17.947
this was super fun.
00:35:17.947 --> 00:35:19.146
Um,
00:35:19.552 --> 00:35:24.652
it was, I didn't expect to learn so much about myself from your observations of the conversation.
00:35:24.652 --> 00:35:25.161
That
00:35:25.251 --> 00:35:26.211
Oh, that's great.
00:35:26.211 --> 00:35:27.831
I love to hear that.
00:35:27.831 --> 00:35:28.972
I love to hear that.
00:35:28.972 --> 00:35:45.505
And that was part two of my conversation with Jess Mendoza, and I'm sure we could have kept going, uh, for us as long as we needed to for a part three.
00:35:45.505 --> 00:35:51.416
Um, but I hope you found it as insightful, uh, and grounded as I did.
00:35:51.416 --> 00:36:01.545
What really stood out to me is how Jess brings the same level of sincerity and intentionality to every part of her work.
00:36:01.545 --> 00:36:10.606
Not just doing the job that she signed up to do, but really gravitating towards the things that she finds herself really passionate about.
00:36:10.606 --> 00:36:17.085
it actually reminds me a lot about the book job moves that I had read for one of my solo episodes.
00:36:17.085 --> 00:36:35.396
there was a lot in that book about finding the things that your employees were passionate about and encouraging them to invest a lot of their creative energy and potential making the things manifest, and that's something that it seems like Jess was really able to do a lot and is still able to do it today.
00:36:35.396 --> 00:36:38.936
From the community building experiences to the AI training, I.
00:36:38.936 --> 00:36:41.920
So what comes first here?
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:48.721
Is it Jess's tenacity and proactivity where she empowers herself to do those things?
00:36:48.721 --> 00:37:01.231
Or does she work at a place that is fundamentally supportive and provides the kind of environment where she can thrive, not just doing the job that she signed up to do, but.
00:37:01.231 --> 00:37:09.840
Do the job that she identifies as needing to be done, uh, and one that she truly has an affinity for.
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:28.670
Jess, I think with this conversation reminded me a lot that Real innovation is human first, There's so much about our identities that are wrapped up in, what we do and how we provide for ourselves, and we get so much meaning from it that I think is important to understand that.
00:37:28.670 --> 00:37:33.951
The outputs of that should also be thinking about the person first.
00:37:33.951 --> 00:37:39.920
Um, and obviously the inputs, the actual work, what we're doing in order to get those outcomes are.
00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:45.860
Going to be focused on how we thrive and, and feel welcome in our place of work.
00:37:45.860 --> 00:37:50.041
her advice, I think for career switchers and job seekers is gold.
00:37:50.041 --> 00:37:58.951
Focus on what is in your control and give yourself permission to start from scratch and know that the rest is just part of the process.
00:37:58.951 --> 00:38:05.385
So if this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who's navigating a transition or trying to find their voice at work.
00:38:05.385 --> 00:38:07.186
And make sure to subscribe.
00:38:07.186 --> 00:38:12.346
Uh, we've got more conversations coming soon about the human side of change.
00:38:12.346 --> 00:38:14.056
Um, and, uh, yeah.
00:38:14.056 --> 00:38:15.525
Thank you so much again for listening.
00:00:06.509 --> 00:00:08.490
Hey everyone, Varun Rajan here.
00:00:08.490 --> 00:00:16.890
Welcome back to the Push-Pull podcast, where we interview people about their career transitions, specifically the push and pull factors that inform those transitions.
00:00:16.890 --> 00:00:20.440
today we're picking up with part two of my conversation with Dr.
00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:32.829
Jess Mendoza, a cognitive psychologist and UX researcher with an extraordinary ability to connect the dots between systems and people, between tech and human empathy.
00:00:32.829 --> 00:00:46.380
In the first part of our conversation, we followed her amazing story going from being deeply ensconced in the world of academia into how she eventually pivoted into UX research, in technology and in the corporate world.
00:00:46.380 --> 00:00:50.560
in this half of the conversation, we shift gears into the workplace.
00:00:50.560 --> 00:01:03.590
How Jess thinks about her role today, what motivates her and why she continues to take on meaningful side quests, that build community and spark curiosity, across her organization.
00:01:03.590 --> 00:01:05.397
we also talk about ai.
00:01:05.397 --> 00:01:14.887
Jess is somebody who is earnestly trying to understand how AI fits into her own day-to-day, and she's a huge advocate.
00:01:14.887 --> 00:01:35.459
For using AI day-to-day on the job and basically trying to figure out how to roll out more AI tooling literacy in the organization that she works at today, We talk about how AI is actually changing, how people learn, communicate, and make decisions at work, and what skills matter most in this new era.
00:01:35.459 --> 00:01:49.823
She really breaks it down with a lot of clarity, warmth, and a ton of lived insight in terms of the conversation she's been having with her own colleagues on how to encourage adoption in her organization and how to understand where the gaps are.
00:01:49.823 --> 00:01:53.698
In learning when it comes to driving that adoption in the first place.
00:01:53.698 --> 00:02:02.198
you know, I've had a lot of conversations with people about AI and will likely have more on the podcast going forward, I think it's very.
00:02:02.198 --> 00:02:06.679
Easy to get deep into the weeds about specifics of different tools.
00:02:06.679 --> 00:02:15.109
But what I really appreciate about Jess is she makes the trends that she's seeing in terms of AI adoption in the workplace very accessible.
00:02:15.109 --> 00:02:32.141
I think the way that she approaches it will help you feel a lot more at ease about Getting a little bit more curious and tech forward, uh, when it comes to using AI tools or how to even think about how it might be able to help you in your day-to-day work.
00:02:32.141 --> 00:02:42.525
If you're navigating change at work, wondering how to bring more of yourself to the job, or trying to stay grounded as technology evolves, this episode is for you.
00:02:42.525 --> 00:02:45.435
So without any further ado, let's dive in.
00:02:45.435 --> 00:02:51.996
cool.
00:02:51.996 --> 00:02:56.276
Jess: tell me a little bit about, what else is important to you today?
00:02:56.276 --> 00:02:58.286
What are the kinds of things you're doing on the job?
00:02:58.286 --> 00:03:03.186
Tell me, whatever you can or are excited about with respect to your side quest.
00:03:03.186 --> 00:03:06.406
you've obviously been in UX research for quite some time now.
00:03:06.406 --> 00:03:11.895
and you're also obviously thinking a lot about jobs and careers and the way that they're evolving.
00:03:11.895 --> 00:03:20.205
tell me a little bit about what you care about, and, what are the things that you're actively exploring, whether it's on the job or, offline.
00:03:20.850 --> 00:03:21.450
Yeah.
00:03:21.450 --> 00:03:21.991
Okay.
00:03:21.991 --> 00:03:26.070
I'll start with on the job, since we're on that topic, or since that's where we left off.
00:03:26.070 --> 00:03:32.850
So on the job, I continue to have these side quests, like when I got there, I created this community being remote.
00:03:32.850 --> 00:03:35.461
I was worried about how am I gonna.
00:03:35.461 --> 00:03:40.401
Build a relationship with my peers because I'm three hours behind.
00:03:40.401 --> 00:03:51.515
I'm in Pacific Time, they're in East Coast time, and so one of the first things I did was I created this little Yammer Viva Engage Microsoft Gauge community of.
00:03:51.515 --> 00:03:56.346
Just having a place for us to share our creative version of ourselves.
00:03:56.346 --> 00:04:03.036
And so through that, I started to know other people in the department, other people outside of the department and what their hobbies were.
00:04:03.036 --> 00:04:09.665
And so we had that bridge of, Hey, here's something we both enjoy, we're good at doing, or we're interested in doing.
00:04:09.665 --> 00:04:12.020
And that bonds us together.
00:04:12.020 --> 00:04:18.680
So when we're struggling with the role, or if I had any questions, I already felt okay, I have the supportive network to go to.
00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:20.180
We have this relationship already.
00:04:20.180 --> 00:04:24.951
I can be open and say, Hey, I don't know anything right now about X, Y, and Z.
00:04:24.951 --> 00:04:28.735
Could you point me in the right direction or resource that I could get my hands-on?
00:04:28.735 --> 00:04:30.815
that was really helpful.
00:04:30.815 --> 00:04:36.156
Then as I progressed in, my time at this organization, I got involved with.
00:04:36.156 --> 00:04:38.781
Something called agile transformation.
00:04:38.781 --> 00:04:44.600
So we're helping the organization be more agile, understand the principles of the Agile manifesto.
00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:47.571
My favorite principle is people over processes.
00:04:47.571 --> 00:04:55.761
Probably you could guess because I do value that human to human connection and that quality of getting to know your peers.
00:04:55.761 --> 00:04:58.536
And I think the reason why I value that so much is because.
00:04:58.536 --> 00:05:08.151
We are just so used to clocking in, clocking out, but there's a lot of untapped richness in those interactions that you have with your peers in the day.
00:05:08.151 --> 00:05:17.821
if you think about it, we spend a lot more time at work than we do our loved ones sometimes, and I want to make that experience.
00:05:17.821 --> 00:05:20.250
experience all around.
00:05:20.250 --> 00:05:25.980
And I try to get to know others in a way that makes them feel seen, because that's what I would want as well.
00:05:25.980 --> 00:05:29.370
So I think that's something I'm really passionate about.
00:05:29.370 --> 00:05:42.581
And recently I've been helping with technology adoption in the sense of understanding these AI tools, what they are not, what's the limitations of them, what's under the hood, and.
00:05:42.581 --> 00:05:47.995
How does your personal learning style influence how you use these tools?
00:05:47.995 --> 00:05:55.267
So making some presentations for the people in my organization to understand like, this isn't scary, like it can be, it definitely can be.
00:05:55.267 --> 00:05:56.651
but it doesn't have to be
00:05:56.769 --> 00:06:09.990
a couple more threads I'm noticing, there's a parallel with your time in grad school where one of the first things that you felt like you really had to do being in a new place for the first time was.
00:06:09.990 --> 00:06:20.144
Trying to build that sense of community and support network and trying to connect with people as people, because you were going through something together.
00:06:20.144 --> 00:06:22.875
And so the relationship building was I.
00:06:22.875 --> 00:06:27.584
Your instinctual first step when you were in a new environment.
00:06:27.584 --> 00:06:34.944
And it sounds like, one of the side quests on the job was also a community building relationship building initiative.
00:06:34.944 --> 00:06:41.259
and the kind of first couple of things that you talked about here we're very much about okay, how do I set up something where we can connect with each other?
00:06:41.259 --> 00:06:46.540
We're at work, more than we are at home, during our waking hours.
00:06:46.540 --> 00:06:53.500
So it's important that we are able to be on the same page or build a support network to be there for one another and stuff like that.
00:06:53.500 --> 00:06:56.600
I'm curious if you had drawn the same parallel.
00:06:56.600 --> 00:06:57.730
but I think it's really cool.
00:06:58.524 --> 00:07:06.619
Honestly, I hadn't, like when you said that, I was just like having a moment in my brain, I was like, holy crap, I never noticed that about me So that's really cool.
00:07:06.619 --> 00:07:08.863
I appreciate that you highlighted that.
00:07:08.863 --> 00:07:12.678
I honestly hadn't noticed that was like a theme, but you're right.
00:07:12.678 --> 00:07:15.488
Like now, that I hear that I am like, yeah, you're right.
00:07:15.488 --> 00:07:19.119
I definitely did gravitate towards I need to have this community.
00:07:19.119 --> 00:07:31.178
I want, I felt that sense of loneliness in grad school because I didn't have that network that I was thinking like, you know what comes with those feelings or anxiety, stress, sometimes depression.
00:07:31.178 --> 00:07:34.178
And I was just like, I know the statistics of this one.
00:07:34.178 --> 00:07:35.678
Out of every five Americans.
00:07:35.678 --> 00:07:39.803
Will or already have a mental disparity.
00:07:39.803 --> 00:07:44.754
And that can range from the ones I just mentioned to other spectrums of it.
00:07:44.754 --> 00:07:48.413
And so I carry that with me.
00:07:48.413 --> 00:07:56.028
And being in the UX community full of people with empathy and so it was really easy for me to.
00:07:56.028 --> 00:08:01.894
Let them know Hey, I also wanna improve the human experience beyond the screen by building this little community.
00:08:01.894 --> 00:08:06.543
Even though course that's not where we're gonna live in the next eight hours 'cause we're here to work.
00:08:06.543 --> 00:08:11.824
But it does help you feel closer together with those that you're collaborating with.
00:08:11.824 --> 00:08:18.274
Like you get to see them as a person and when you hear them being frustrated about something, you can understand that, like that frustration.
00:08:18.274 --> 00:08:25.723
It's not necessarily about you, but maybe there's something that could be done to help both of you get on the same page together again.
00:08:25.723 --> 00:08:30.254
So I, yeah, I hadn't noticed that theme, so thanks for pointing that out.
00:08:30.848 --> 00:08:31.689
No, totally.
00:08:31.689 --> 00:08:42.908
one of the things that I'm curious about is, thinking about the side quests that you have at work, and you're really excited talking about pursuing those things.
00:08:42.908 --> 00:08:45.899
I'm curious about what makes an environment.
00:08:45.899 --> 00:08:59.533
Conducive to somebody being able to put their creative energy into something that wasn't in the job description that they necessarily signed up for, but they're really passionate to, to pursue while on the job.
00:08:59.533 --> 00:09:01.423
do you feel supported in that?
00:09:01.423 --> 00:09:07.956
And what do you think are the components of an environment that encourages that amongst their employees?
00:09:08.572 --> 00:09:09.172
Yeah.
00:09:09.172 --> 00:09:12.772
So I would say yes, I did feel supported.
00:09:12.772 --> 00:09:15.442
It was a big contrast for me because.
00:09:15.442 --> 00:09:20.601
When I first joined the organization, like they had these little things called friendship calls.
00:09:20.601 --> 00:09:29.902
And so you just get to know your team member for an hour or 30 minutes and just get to know them for who they are, what they do, what's their role, what product do they work on.
00:09:29.902 --> 00:09:36.152
they also had this, this little intake form that they gave us.
00:09:36.152 --> 00:09:38.221
And I really appreciate the leaders who made this because.
00:09:38.221 --> 00:09:41.897
I am, of course I'm a nerd for behavioral data.
00:09:41.897 --> 00:09:44.596
And they had this thing where it's like people's communication styles.
00:09:44.596 --> 00:09:46.787
So I was like, oh yes, I love that they have that.
00:09:46.787 --> 00:09:49.756
'cause I was gonna ask them if we could do it and they already had it.
00:09:49.756 --> 00:09:50.777
So that was great.
00:09:50.777 --> 00:09:52.246
And I use the crap out of
00:09:52.376 --> 00:09:52.596
Wow.
00:09:52.636 --> 00:09:57.226
I always go back and reflect of okay, this is how this person wants to be communicated with.
00:09:57.226 --> 00:10:05.027
It's not always going to be like pinpoint accurate, but it helps you navigate these cross collaborations 'cause you're working with.
00:10:05.027 --> 00:10:15.126
A lot of people with a lot of different, projects on their hands and to understand okay, if this person's a visual, let me make sure I always present with them visual.
00:10:15.126 --> 00:10:19.027
If this person's a talker, let me be prepared to write down my key points in advance.
00:10:19.027 --> 00:10:23.826
So that I can listen first and then I'll have something, so I won't forget what I said.
00:10:23.826 --> 00:10:27.346
'cause sometimes you could get in between of like interrupting each other.
00:10:27.346 --> 00:10:33.886
not because you're trying to be rude, but because you get excited about it when you're having that experience that you're like, wait, I forgot.
00:10:33.886 --> 00:10:36.636
so I do feel like I was, I was really supported.
00:10:36.636 --> 00:10:39.246
but there was also some times where I was struggling.
00:10:39.246 --> 00:10:45.219
Where I was just not knowing where to put my focus 'cause I was learning so much on the job.
00:10:45.219 --> 00:10:53.739
And then again came that feeling of, oh my gosh, like I have to perform as best as I can here.
00:10:53.739 --> 00:10:56.769
I always ask what does success look like and what does failure look like?
00:10:56.769 --> 00:10:58.989
That's always my number one question with interviews.
00:10:58.989 --> 00:11:05.109
And even after the interview, I wanna know, I remember at my performance review, my first question was, how do you get fired?
00:11:05.109 --> 00:11:06.609
What are you gonna do to get fired?
00:11:06.609 --> 00:11:18.759
So I know not to do those things to get fired, and I was just always on the edge of if I make this mistake, like I'm not, I felt like I had something to prove that I might not have the business acumen.
00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:25.448
I might not have the industry knowledge per se, but I do bring value here and I felt like I had to push for that.
00:11:25.448 --> 00:11:36.287
And it was just hard because the business pace is way different than academia academia is like a lot slower because you have to look at every single thing.
00:11:36.287 --> 00:11:39.136
And so having to really understand quickly.
00:11:39.136 --> 00:11:46.447
much do I need to know before I can keep moving forward is enough so I feel confident that is going in the right direction.
00:11:46.447 --> 00:11:53.897
And that took me a while to get, but I did have support, from my manager at the time, from my peers at the time.
00:11:53.897 --> 00:11:59.336
And even now, I would say the composition of our department has changed.
00:11:59.336 --> 00:12:00.246
Like we've grown.
00:12:00.246 --> 00:12:05.272
And I do still feel supported and now I feel supported even from other departments.
00:12:05.272 --> 00:12:19.341
So like we have the AI department now that's, so we have AI and UX and I feel a lot of support in that department and other people who I've networked with from my other side Quest, when I was on the DEI council, I made friends with people there too.
00:12:19.341 --> 00:12:24.772
So I, I built that network to help me and I could go to them and ask them like.
00:12:24.772 --> 00:12:27.886
Is this typical of what should be happening right now?
00:12:27.886 --> 00:12:30.256
And if it's not, how can I improve?
00:12:30.256 --> 00:12:35.687
I'm always seeking that feedback so I can recalibrate myself and improve myself.
00:12:35.986 --> 00:12:43.206
when you start off on a new initiative, that you come up with, are there folks that you have to convince?
00:12:43.206 --> 00:12:45.517
Have you learned how to do that better over time?
00:12:45.517 --> 00:12:50.557
curious about how, or maybe it's about advocating to join a new initiative that you see.
00:12:50.557 --> 00:12:52.476
Maybe it's with AI or something like that.
00:12:52.476 --> 00:12:54.397
I'd be curious about an example of.
00:12:54.397 --> 00:12:58.236
self-advocacy, for yourself to be working on something that you want to,
00:12:58.836 --> 00:13:12.787
Yeah, so I remember thinking I wanted to get more hands-on experience with we can improve like our communication when it comes to cross collaborations.
00:13:12.787 --> 00:13:20.677
Because again, like sometimes the onboarding will happen really fast, and this is something that's not unique to this organization.
00:13:20.677 --> 00:13:21.067
By the way,
00:13:21.126 --> 00:13:21.246
I.
00:13:21.246 --> 00:13:22.626
is something I hear from peers.
00:13:22.626 --> 00:13:24.277
Across the industry.
00:13:24.277 --> 00:13:27.966
Sometimes onboarding happens too fast and the expectations aren't set.
00:13:27.966 --> 00:13:34.317
And I think having those conversations in place, and that's where Agile comes in hand, comes in handy.
00:13:34.317 --> 00:13:45.866
It's you have these ceremonies like whether it's your weekly standups or daily standups, and you have your retrospective of things that went right, things that didn't go right, things that could have gone better, what should we do more of?
00:13:45.866 --> 00:13:48.147
What should we do Less of those things.
00:13:48.147 --> 00:13:58.142
Are all things that everyone is there to, they're open to changing and I think that's what makes it, an environment where somebody can really flourish there.
00:13:58.142 --> 00:14:01.772
That they do prioritize people over processes.
00:14:01.772 --> 00:14:04.111
They, the organization also.
00:14:04.111 --> 00:14:08.236
Wants people to embrace this growth mindset.
00:14:08.236 --> 00:14:10.726
And of course, I love learning.
00:14:10.726 --> 00:14:16.701
Like I actually have a bunch of books stacked up to hold the microphone up right now, that I was reading.
00:14:16.701 --> 00:14:27.142
But yeah, so having leaders that want you to grow so much that even if you grow into a different department, they're okay with that.
00:14:27.142 --> 00:14:33.562
Now, of course, there's processes in place, but it's like they, they want you to do it in a certain way so that.
00:14:33.562 --> 00:14:35.812
They wanna set you up for success.
00:14:36.522 --> 00:14:36.812
Yeah.
00:14:37.111 --> 00:14:44.121
part I do think is here because I don't hear a lot of stories of other organizations like that.
00:14:44.121 --> 00:14:46.912
So I'm very grateful for the opportunity that I have here.
00:14:46.912 --> 00:14:51.501
But of course, anywhere you go, you're gonna find pluses and minuses in the experience
00:14:51.552 --> 00:14:51.981
Of course.
00:14:51.981 --> 00:14:52.542
Yeah.
00:14:52.542 --> 00:14:54.251
But that's really fascinating to hear.
00:14:54.251 --> 00:14:57.211
I've been reading this book about how to help people.
00:14:57.211 --> 00:15:08.851
essentially I've been reading a bunch of books about people finding the right fit at a workplace and what that means and how employers can think about, like helping their employees like fit into the role that's right for them once they have them.
00:15:08.851 --> 00:15:10.067
It's a couple of different books.
00:15:10.067 --> 00:15:13.626
so that, that whole aspect of things is super interesting to me right now.
00:15:13.626 --> 00:15:20.807
I might try to, I might try to reach out again and ask more questions about how things operate there, because it sounds like a very interesting, set of,
00:15:21.287 --> 00:15:22.397
radical Candor?
00:15:22.397 --> 00:15:22.427
I,
00:15:23.076 --> 00:15:24.126
I have, yes.
00:15:24.226 --> 00:15:24.586
that's a
00:15:24.586 --> 00:15:27.047
it was a while ago actually, but yeah, it's a great book.
00:15:27.241 --> 00:15:27.902
a great one.
00:15:27.902 --> 00:15:38.491
Yeah, so that one too, like having that whole feedback and accountability of your work, but also understanding that communication piece of if you're struggling, don't suffer in silence.
00:15:38.491 --> 00:15:42.822
make sure you say something, shout out to somebody, that you feel comfortable with.
00:15:42.822 --> 00:15:44.351
And I think.
00:15:44.351 --> 00:15:54.476
Having that transparency in leadership, like they do keep us involved in the conversations when there's certain decisions being made, and they keep us in conversations when it comes to career growth.
00:15:54.476 --> 00:15:57.537
Hey, how satisfied are you guys right now where you're at?
00:15:57.537 --> 00:15:58.736
Where could we do better?
00:15:58.736 --> 00:16:04.586
They have those conversations and I don't, as far as I know, I don't hear that.
00:16:04.586 --> 00:16:07.527
Other organizations do that a lot according to.
00:16:07.527 --> 00:16:11.022
comments I've heard from my peers, like they don't do that everywhere.
00:16:11.022 --> 00:16:18.601
So that is something that, that's super useful, to wanna learn from your team and not necessarily dictate everything that they do.
00:16:18.601 --> 00:16:23.611
give them some autonomy, trust them that they come to work because they want to do well.
00:16:23.611 --> 00:16:28.351
Nobody shows up to work saying, I'm going to do all these mistakes today and see what happens.
00:16:28.351 --> 00:16:28.581
Okay.
00:16:28.636 --> 00:16:37.876
we've been talking about you being in an environment that's really conducive to you being able to learn and grow and flex different muscles.
00:16:37.876 --> 00:16:46.876
so the question is, what would it look like if companies were actually designed for connection and not just productivity?
00:16:46.876 --> 00:16:48.527
And what would that mean for the company?
00:16:49.871 --> 00:16:54.912
Yeah, In a perfect world, if I were in charge of that, I think it would
00:16:55.001 --> 00:16:55.256
Of course.
00:16:55.557 --> 00:16:58.511
understanding the composition of who's coming to work.
00:16:58.511 --> 00:17:11.442
Like understanding what do they need to be set up for success what are challenges that they typically face, and how can the company and their collaborators support them in that space.
00:17:11.442 --> 00:17:14.142
So that kind of goes to speak about.
00:17:14.142 --> 00:17:17.517
Challenges with neurodiversity.
00:17:17.517 --> 00:17:30.287
if we all were more cognizant of, maybe we want to be a little bit more objective in the way that we're talking and not necessarily use all these weird phrases like blue skies.
00:17:30.287 --> 00:17:35.116
Like just say we're starting from ground zero, we're doing up, that can be confusing.
00:17:35.116 --> 00:17:42.957
and understanding that people, they're there fill a role, but they also have their own dreams and their own goals.
00:17:42.957 --> 00:17:47.741
And they are, I think they should be allowed to grow in that space too.
00:17:47.741 --> 00:17:55.902
I don't think that should be seen as like a threat of oh no, my resource is going no, your resource is evolving, and now they can train another person to fill that role.
00:17:56.646 --> 00:17:56.936
Yeah.
00:17:57.237 --> 00:18:02.501
so looking at it like that and then the worklife balance too, I think that's really important.
00:18:02.501 --> 00:18:11.201
Like I read somewhere and don't quote me on this because I don't know the statistics on that, but I did read that there was a study where people were.
00:18:11.201 --> 00:18:19.376
Asked a survey if they would be willing to pay, willing to get paid less if it meant that they could do a four day work week.
00:18:19.376 --> 00:18:25.916
And I know in Iceland for sure, people are doing a four day work week and they're having success with it now.
00:18:25.916 --> 00:18:28.227
Not everyone's gonna find that success, obviously.
00:18:28.227 --> 00:18:30.626
if you're in the medical field, you can't just be like, sorry
00:18:31.106 --> 00:18:31.527
Of course,
00:18:31.826 --> 00:18:35.876
to have your heart attacks another day or something like that.
00:18:35.876 --> 00:18:36.596
you can't do that.
00:18:37.102 --> 00:18:37.451
right.
00:18:38.366 --> 00:18:40.497
understanding that like people.
00:18:40.497 --> 00:18:42.567
Are here to live.
00:18:42.567 --> 00:18:44.576
They're not born to work.
00:18:44.576 --> 00:18:49.886
We are working so that we can afford to have a nice life and experience.
00:18:49.886 --> 00:18:59.686
the little joys in life, whether that be with your grandparents, your friends, or if you have kids, your children or your pets, is the purpose of our work.
00:18:59.686 --> 00:19:01.366
And when you come into work, you're.
00:19:01.366 --> 00:19:07.561
People will talk about bringing their authentic selves, but I know it's not always the case that everyone can safely feel that way.
00:19:07.561 --> 00:19:23.102
There are some populations that are facing different experiences than others, and I think bringing awareness to, okay, if that's something that's present in, in the world today, what can this organization do to level the ground?
00:19:23.102 --> 00:19:26.221
What opportunities can we share that everyone can have access to?
00:19:26.221 --> 00:19:29.192
What resource can we share that everyone has access to?
00:19:29.192 --> 00:19:34.801
And do we have these checks and balances in place to make sure that the opportunities are being dispersed fairly?
00:19:34.801 --> 00:19:43.592
So I think, yeah, and that, that's how I would see it if it was designed for that connection, because your employees wouldn't just be there for the paycheck.
00:19:43.592 --> 00:19:46.221
They'd be there for the experience of I know these people.
00:19:46.221 --> 00:19:51.261
This is my community, this is my village, and these are the people I wanna be productive with.
00:19:51.261 --> 00:19:52.132
This is my team.
00:19:53.001 --> 00:19:53.571
Yeah.
00:19:53.571 --> 00:20:02.672
My last guest actually was saying that the research shows that someone is more likely to stay at a job if they feel like they have friends at work, right?
00:20:02.672 --> 00:20:06.902
and that can go into some pretty toxic directions, right?
00:20:06.902 --> 00:20:09.182
if you're trauma bonded to a bunch of people.
00:20:09.182 --> 00:20:11.241
I think, folks who have worked at a bunch of.
00:20:11.241 --> 00:20:13.567
Startups, can attest to that to some degree.
00:20:13.567 --> 00:20:15.626
but, but yeah, I think it makes sense, right?
00:20:15.626 --> 00:20:19.686
If you have healthy relationships with your colleagues, that's something that goes a long way.
00:20:19.686 --> 00:20:24.122
And I also like the, what, it really resonated with me what you said about.
00:20:24.122 --> 00:20:44.507
Flexing into new and different roles, and having your employer see that as an opportunity for new value rather than losing a resource like you have a resource that's involving into something new that can actually benefit the company and then train and hire somebody else to take care of the responsibilities, that the first person.
00:20:44.507 --> 00:20:47.912
Once had as, as part of their job description.
00:20:47.912 --> 00:20:53.342
I think that kind of thinking is a lot more kind of like abundance thinking versus scarcity thinking.
00:20:53.342 --> 00:21:00.126
Where it's okay, like what's the opportunity if this person moves away from this world that we direly need to keep, that seat filled for whatever reason.
00:21:00.126 --> 00:21:01.146
That's super helpful.
00:21:01.146 --> 00:21:01.997
thank you.
00:21:01.997 --> 00:21:11.537
curious, you've been involved in rolling out understanding of AI across your company and trying to get people to be a little bit more comfortable with it.
00:21:11.537 --> 00:21:18.257
So I am curious about some things when it comes to AI being used in the workplace.
00:21:18.257 --> 00:21:26.376
How is AI already reshaping how knowledge workers, people in corporate, how people think, And collaborate.
00:21:26.376 --> 00:21:27.126
What are you seeing?
00:21:28.247 --> 00:21:28.636
Yeah.
00:21:28.636 --> 00:21:33.166
So one, I wanna start with something interesting about prompting that I learned.
00:21:33.166 --> 00:21:36.406
So I remember having a discussion with a colleague.
00:21:36.406 --> 00:21:43.451
I respect very much because they're so adept in AI and technology in general.
00:21:43.451 --> 00:21:53.021
I remember thinking like, Hey, we really need to focus on how can we bring AI literacy to the table and get people to understand how to interact with these tools.
00:21:53.021 --> 00:21:55.811
And prompting is like the main way that people interact.
00:21:55.811 --> 00:21:58.142
And they were like, oh, I don't know if that will be a need be.
00:21:58.142 --> 00:21:58.741
'cause you could just.
00:21:58.741 --> 00:22:00.076
Converse with them.
00:22:00.076 --> 00:22:03.797
Like you converse with the LLMs just like you would a person and it does its thing.
00:22:03.797 --> 00:22:08.596
And I was like, yeah, but not everyone converses the same way.
00:22:08.596 --> 00:22:20.567
So if my prompt and your prompt, like we were asked to build something, but we have a totally different scope of how we perceive that think we want and the output.
00:22:20.567 --> 00:22:22.862
It's gonna look different for everyone.
00:22:22.862 --> 00:22:26.672
It kind of reminds me of the phrase like, everywhere you go, there you are.
00:22:26.672 --> 00:22:30.542
So if you make this prompt and you're like, oh, I don't know.
00:22:30.542 --> 00:22:31.261
I don't like the output.
00:22:31.261 --> 00:22:34.501
what was your input and what did you know about your input?
00:22:34.501 --> 00:22:38.582
the way that you prompt is really a reflection of how you articulate your thoughts.
00:22:38.582 --> 00:22:50.231
And there are different sort of prompting styles that can help you, train of thought or step-by-step or sequential prompts or even asking it to role play, even dictating those specific prompts.
00:22:50.231 --> 00:22:56.442
it really ties down to how are you gonna communicate that to someone or something else.
00:22:56.442 --> 00:23:03.971
And so then we started rolling up these workshops of okay, this is how you might wanna consider prompting and here's some shortcuts of how to do it.
00:23:03.971 --> 00:23:06.057
but yeah.
00:23:06.561 --> 00:23:17.632
what do you think as you're doing some of these prompting workshops and talking to people that you work with about how to approach these tools, what is the skill?
00:23:17.632 --> 00:23:20.642
and I'm thinking cognitive skill, emotional skill, et cetera.
00:23:20.642 --> 00:23:28.011
what skill do you think will become more important in an AI powered workplace as these technologies evolve?
00:23:28.696 --> 00:23:37.096
Yeah, I would say the number one skill is critical thinking, and the top close one would be communication.
00:23:37.096 --> 00:23:40.457
so with critical thinking, it's a lot that encompasses that.
00:23:40.457 --> 00:23:50.416
That's like reasoning decision making, being able to understand, you are using your judgments and you have to follow up with, okay, this is the output.
00:23:50.416 --> 00:23:52.807
What do I know about this?
00:23:52.807 --> 00:23:59.106
To be able to assess primary and secondary resources and compare it to make sure it's right or it's accurate.
00:23:59.106 --> 00:24:09.757
That, and then having a little bit of curiosity into the subjects that you're trying to learn more of to helps because let's say I wanted to learn about programming.
00:24:09.757 --> 00:24:12.386
if I'm asking Chad GPT to do this.
00:24:12.386 --> 00:24:15.521
Prompt a Python script to create a game.
00:24:15.521 --> 00:24:23.172
If I know nothing about programming, then I'm not gonna be able to dictate a better prompt to say, I want it to be 3D, or I want it to.
00:24:23.172 --> 00:24:30.071
When two worms crash together, I'm thinking of like the worm game now or the snake game, bringing back the Nokia snake game.
00:24:30.071 --> 00:24:32.321
If they crash together, they're gonna blow up.
00:24:32.321 --> 00:24:35.041
But what kind of software environment do they need?
00:24:35.041 --> 00:24:36.362
I need a virtual environment.
00:24:36.362 --> 00:24:38.102
I need this Python library.
00:24:38.102 --> 00:24:42.082
I need, to have the user interface perform a certain way needs to adhere to.
00:24:42.082 --> 00:24:47.057
Web and content accessibility guidelines so that the contrast as well.
00:24:47.057 --> 00:24:53.807
So it's like having that background knowledge will supplement how much you're able to with your prompt.
00:24:53.807 --> 00:25:06.136
And even if you don't have that background knowledge, I mean there's these two arguments I'm seeing of there's gonna be no experts anymore, or you have to be an expert to use these tools or you don't have to be an expert at all to use these tools.
00:25:06.136 --> 00:25:16.836
So there's like these schools of thought going on and I feel Yes, to some extent you have to know about what you're working with to understand how to interact and get the right outcome.
00:25:16.836 --> 00:25:25.146
But I don't wanna go as far as saying, Hey, you guys need to all get a PhD To interact with these tools like that is not the case.
00:25:25.146 --> 00:25:34.396
you need to know just enough about the subject and know it well to be able to understand and assess what that output is and make sure it's guiding you in that right direction.
00:25:35.356 --> 00:25:40.457
Yeah, so so in terms of the skills, you need communication, obviously.
00:25:40.457 --> 00:25:44.017
and I hear like curiosity and judgment, right?
00:25:44.017 --> 00:25:47.227
So it's like you can't, and I'm hearing this a lot about, I.
00:25:47.227 --> 00:25:48.817
LLM outputs.
00:25:48.817 --> 00:25:51.247
You can't just take them at face value.
00:25:51.247 --> 00:26:02.076
You have to have some discernment, some way to actually judge and decide whether it's high quality and whether you can use that output or figure out how you would want to edit it, adjust it, et cetera.
00:26:02.076 --> 00:26:15.467
But then curiosity was something that you brought up, which is go that extra step of if you're not an expert in what you're trying to generate, you still have to have enough curiosity to be able to have that judgment and discernment, especially if you're not.
00:26:15.467 --> 00:26:21.832
A domain expert in the thing that you're actually trying to generate, you wanna say okay, is this the right thing?
00:26:21.832 --> 00:26:23.122
What else do I need?
00:26:23.122 --> 00:26:26.721
The ability to continue to follow up, because these tools aren't magic.
00:26:26.721 --> 00:26:30.932
They just don't con, convey, whatever is in your brain.
00:26:30.932 --> 00:26:33.152
You have to figure out the right way to put it down on paper.
00:26:33.152 --> 00:26:33.791
so to speak.
00:26:33.791 --> 00:26:38.451
you have to figure out what you're getting back, like what else do you need in order to make your thing work?
00:26:38.451 --> 00:26:49.146
and you have to have the drive to be able to search for all of the kind of ancillary knowledge around that to figure out what you're actually building or what you're actually trying to achieve, with the tools that you have.
00:26:49.852 --> 00:26:52.912
Yeah, and you have to be open to challenging yourself.
00:26:52.912 --> 00:26:59.902
Like I, in addition to asking it to provide me feedback when I'm writing something or to help me learn a thing, I'll ask it.
00:26:59.902 --> 00:27:00.922
Where am I struggling?
00:27:00.922 --> 00:27:03.277
What do I not know enough about yet?
00:27:03.277 --> 00:27:04.836
And where can I get those resources?
00:27:04.836 --> 00:27:06.636
Could you provide me with those links?
00:27:06.636 --> 00:27:08.916
And then I go through and check those links?
00:27:08.916 --> 00:27:10.567
'cause sometimes those links are fake.
00:27:10.567 --> 00:27:11.826
It
00:27:12.126 --> 00:27:12.616
Totally.
00:27:12.916 --> 00:27:18.067
and either, either they're fake or either they're expired links and it's not always unintentional.
00:27:18.067 --> 00:27:19.957
Like I don't think it's out of malice at all.
00:27:19.957 --> 00:27:24.696
I think it's just, it's a tool that was changed on this large set of data that was unlabeled.
00:27:24.696 --> 00:27:26.257
So it's bound to make some errors.
00:27:26.257 --> 00:27:28.596
And that's again, where you go in the loop.
00:27:28.596 --> 00:27:30.067
You are the human in the loop.
00:27:30.067 --> 00:27:32.376
So I always like to say the you in the loop.
00:27:33.172 --> 00:27:33.711
Yeah.
00:27:33.711 --> 00:27:34.372
Yeah.
00:27:34.372 --> 00:27:35.152
I love that.
00:27:35.152 --> 00:27:47.561
you've obviously made a pretty significant career pivot, and you went through a lot and kept yourself very open and earnest in searching for the new career trajectory that you have today.
00:27:47.561 --> 00:27:53.051
tell me a little bit about the kinds of folks that you see struggling in the job market today.
00:27:53.051 --> 00:28:03.152
how does being at work, show up differently for first gen professionals or career switchers, whether it's being at work or, searching for work.
00:28:03.152 --> 00:28:05.521
Do you have a sense of what they're push and pull factors are?
00:28:05.521 --> 00:28:06.632
What are they looking for?
00:28:06.632 --> 00:28:08.011
What are they avoiding?
00:28:08.011 --> 00:28:14.382
yeah, who do you see struggling today and what are the trends that, that you see with them, and how would you advise them to move forward?
00:28:14.951 --> 00:28:17.372
Yeah, I see different groups struggling.
00:28:17.372 --> 00:28:20.342
There's like a group of new graduates that might be struggling.
00:28:20.342 --> 00:28:29.102
There's a group of career pivoters, and then there's also the groups of people who have a lot of experience but have been unfortunately laid off from their organizations.
00:28:29.102 --> 00:28:33.122
And so you have those three lumps in the job market pool.
00:28:33.122 --> 00:28:42.541
And then you also have international workers too, who are, so that's, a fourth lump in this job market pool of people competing for these jobs.
00:28:42.541 --> 00:28:48.162
it, each pool has their own different struggle.
00:28:48.162 --> 00:28:54.311
The season workers will have been let go, might be deemed as overqualified now.
00:28:54.311 --> 00:28:58.017
The new people that just graduated don't have enough experience.
00:28:58.017 --> 00:29:06.116
Now the pivots are fighting between to get squeezed in, and then the international people are like, Hey, I just, I really wanna stay here.
00:29:06.116 --> 00:29:07.436
can I get hired somewhere?
00:29:07.436 --> 00:29:11.102
a lot of things that are in and out of people's control.
00:29:11.102 --> 00:29:12.902
In psychology, there is this concept called.
00:29:12.902 --> 00:29:16.916
The internal locus of control and then the external locus of control.
00:29:16.916 --> 00:29:18.422
Have you heard of that
00:29:18.721 --> 00:29:19.321
Yeah.
00:29:19.321 --> 00:29:19.646
Yes.
00:29:19.737 --> 00:29:20.156
1 0 1?
00:29:20.156 --> 00:29:20.906
Yeah.
00:29:20.906 --> 00:29:30.007
So like for anyone listening who hasn't, the internal locus of control is focusing on the things that you have influence over directly.
00:29:30.007 --> 00:29:39.727
So for example, you have a certain amount of hours after work that you have to go to the gym, go do fun stuff, and then.
00:29:39.727 --> 00:29:44.576
If you'd like to carve out to study things that you want to learn.
00:29:44.576 --> 00:29:47.336
external things are things you can't control.
00:29:47.336 --> 00:29:51.926
So let's say on the way to the gym, you get a flat tire, you can't beat yourself up over that.
00:29:51.926 --> 00:29:53.606
That's something you cannot control.
00:29:53.606 --> 00:29:54.926
It's gotta let it go.
00:29:54.926 --> 00:30:05.007
The job market right now, a lot of companies shifting because they're, some companies are trying to automate things, which are reducing the resources that are opportunities for people to get hired.
00:30:05.007 --> 00:30:09.116
You cannot control that, unfortunately, but what you can control is.
00:30:09.116 --> 00:30:12.402
What direction can I bring myself into?
00:30:12.402 --> 00:30:20.652
Where can I see this like concept of things that I'm good at, things I could get paid for, and the demand that is there.
00:30:20.652 --> 00:30:27.761
And sometimes that will look different for different people that might look like contracting roles at the beginning.
00:30:27.761 --> 00:30:38.142
Those contracting roles might turn into a full-time job, or those contracting roles might turn into this experience that you have to become an entrepreneur and open your own consultancy.
00:30:38.142 --> 00:30:43.271
And then see a lot of younger generations doing their content creation and their.
00:30:43.271 --> 00:30:44.696
Really good at it.
00:30:44.696 --> 00:30:46.076
Like it's so easy for them.
00:30:47.636 --> 00:30:48.057
Yeah,
00:30:48.146 --> 00:30:49.916
like, I'm so comfortable for this camera.
00:30:49.916 --> 00:30:51.537
And I'm like, good for you, because I'm not,
00:30:53.547 --> 00:30:54.987
it's harder than it looks for sure.
00:30:55.287 --> 00:30:55.852
really is.
00:30:55.852 --> 00:31:09.176
So those are the groups that I see struggling and like what I would do is just focus on what you do, have control over and keep one foot in front of the other and something, one of my colleagues, Joaquin Malata, founder of the Swarm community.
00:31:09.176 --> 00:31:18.951
Advise me is do what you can when you can, because there's gonna be times where you can't do anything about it, and you shouldn't feel guilty about resting.
00:31:18.951 --> 00:31:21.682
Resting is a part of that process.
00:31:21.682 --> 00:31:24.332
As much as you think oh, I'm not doing anything.
00:31:24.332 --> 00:31:25.622
Yes, you are.
00:31:25.622 --> 00:31:30.721
You're allowing your body to heal, regenerate, and be stronger for when you hit the ground again the next day.
00:31:31.582 --> 00:31:36.471
Seeing rest as productive is an incredibly important mindset shift.
00:31:36.471 --> 00:31:37.767
Yeah, absolutely.
00:31:37.767 --> 00:31:38.747
I.
00:31:38.747 --> 00:31:39.487
Jess.
00:31:39.487 --> 00:31:40.057
Thank you.
00:31:40.057 --> 00:31:43.676
any other words of wisdom you would like to leave with the audience?
00:31:43.676 --> 00:31:45.866
or any other, shout outs you'd like to make?
00:31:46.227 --> 00:31:46.527
Yeah.
00:31:46.527 --> 00:31:47.037
Thank you.
00:31:47.037 --> 00:31:50.017
let me get some shout outs here so yeah, I mentioned Joaquin Melara, founder of the Swarm Community, really great community to be a part of. They do a lot of events for people to learn about AI literacy, responsible AI use, and how to pivot from design. Anne Cantera and Mahnaz Hajesmaeili,
They have a podcast called, I think it's DESIGNathon, and they're talking about like different pivots into the world of conversation design and voice design. also Yadi Arroyo. She's been, I wanna call her like a fairy godmother because she's very positive. Like I'm going through something at work.
I'll be like, Kadi, is this. Is this typical or am I just like in my own head and like she'll just have a small conversation with me and I feel a lot better? Dr. Gyles Morrison, he's in the UK and he does career coaching. He actually coined this term called clinical ux, where he tries, I wouldn't say he tries.
He does a lot of work and trying to change the landscape of. The clinical world and making it a more user-friendly place for everyone, and not just in the sense of developing the technology, but also the services around that, which is really important given that there's so many. Variations of care that different populations receive.
that's critical in today's world. And Cynthia Leimbach, she's the founder of LA Health now, and I had the pleasure of working with her to get that up and going along with, Nick Thomson, ChinonsoUgwu, Susanne Loeber, and Barend Jungerius. So I know there's probably some names that I'm leaving out because. The list goes on and on. there's a lot of people I have to think in this journey. but yeah.
00:33:28.366 --> 00:33:30.836
We don't get anywhere without the help of other people, totally.
00:33:31.301 --> 00:33:31.481
You
00:33:31.676 --> 00:33:32.007
Yeah.
00:33:32.531 --> 00:33:36.701
like it, it does, it's lonely at first when you're like, oh, I don't know what to do.
00:33:36.701 --> 00:33:40.902
And then you get outta your head and you figure out that everyone didn't know what to do at the beginning.
00:33:40.902 --> 00:33:42.672
You just gotta start somewhere.
00:33:42.672 --> 00:33:44.231
And it's okay to start.
00:33:44.231 --> 00:33:46.961
ground zero, it's okay to not know nothing.
00:33:46.961 --> 00:33:49.602
That's actually an opportunity to grow right there.
00:33:49.602 --> 00:33:51.491
Like that's a push and pull moment for you.
00:33:52.626 --> 00:33:55.207
anything else that you wanna leave us with
00:33:55.557 --> 00:33:55.916
Yeah.
00:33:55.916 --> 00:34:01.376
I would say the last thing is, think about the human experience and what you can do to advocate to enhance that.
00:34:01.376 --> 00:34:08.501
Because as we're moving on in this rapid pace of technology, you're gonna see a lot of.
00:34:08.501 --> 00:34:13.496
Things changing in relation to the interface, how we interact with our interfaces.
00:34:13.496 --> 00:34:20.606
But something that's gonna stay constant is our ability to remain connected to one another and see each other as we are, as people.
00:34:20.606 --> 00:34:26.487
Like just lead with compassion and kindness when you can and when you're in a position to help others.
00:34:26.487 --> 00:34:27.266
Help others.
00:34:27.266 --> 00:34:29.456
But of course, also balance that.
00:34:29.456 --> 00:34:32.396
Don't overextend yourself 'cause you can't pour from an empty cup.
00:34:32.396 --> 00:34:36.157
That is something I've learned the hard way, just make sure like you're.
00:34:36.157 --> 00:34:40.536
You're not closing the gate or like kicking the ladder behind you.
00:34:40.536 --> 00:34:42.706
Like when others win, you win too.
00:34:42.706 --> 00:34:43.547
It comes right back.
00:34:43.547 --> 00:34:44.476
It always comes back.
00:34:44.476 --> 00:34:49.757
Like I, I strongly believe in that success is tied to other success and vice versa.
00:34:49.757 --> 00:34:55.126
Like the community really has a way of lifting you when you're feeling at your lowest.
00:34:55.126 --> 00:34:57.586
And I just wanna see more of that in the world.
00:34:57.586 --> 00:34:58.536
so yeah.
00:34:59.617 --> 00:35:00.097
Yeah.
00:35:00.097 --> 00:35:06.257
I appreciate you ending with and putting out a call for more positivity in the world, Jess.
00:35:06.257 --> 00:35:12.697
So thank you so much, for being here with me, letting me ask you a bunch of questions and sharing your story with us.
00:35:12.697 --> 00:35:13.746
super appreciate it.
00:35:13.746 --> 00:35:15.516
Of course.
00:35:15.516 --> 00:35:16.237
Absolutely.
00:35:16.237 --> 00:35:17.947
this was super fun.
00:35:17.947 --> 00:35:19.146
Um,
00:35:19.552 --> 00:35:24.652
it was, I didn't expect to learn so much about myself from your observations of the conversation.
00:35:24.652 --> 00:35:25.161
That
00:35:25.251 --> 00:35:26.211
Oh, that's great.
00:35:26.211 --> 00:35:27.831
I love to hear that.
00:35:27.831 --> 00:35:28.972
I love to hear that.
00:35:28.972 --> 00:35:45.505
And that was part two of my conversation with Jess Mendoza, and I'm sure we could have kept going, uh, for us as long as we needed to for a part three.
00:35:45.505 --> 00:35:51.416
Um, but I hope you found it as insightful, uh, and grounded as I did.
00:35:51.416 --> 00:36:01.545
What really stood out to me is how Jess brings the same level of sincerity and intentionality to every part of her work.
00:36:01.545 --> 00:36:10.606
Not just doing the job that she signed up to do, but really gravitating towards the things that she finds herself really passionate about.
00:36:10.606 --> 00:36:17.085
it actually reminds me a lot about the book job moves that I had read for one of my solo episodes.
00:36:17.085 --> 00:36:35.396
there was a lot in that book about finding the things that your employees were passionate about and encouraging them to invest a lot of their creative energy and potential making the things manifest, and that's something that it seems like Jess was really able to do a lot and is still able to do it today.
00:36:35.396 --> 00:36:38.936
From the community building experiences to the AI training, I.
00:36:38.936 --> 00:36:41.920
So what comes first here?
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:48.721
Is it Jess's tenacity and proactivity where she empowers herself to do those things?
00:36:48.721 --> 00:37:01.231
Or does she work at a place that is fundamentally supportive and provides the kind of environment where she can thrive, not just doing the job that she signed up to do, but.
00:37:01.231 --> 00:37:09.840
Do the job that she identifies as needing to be done, uh, and one that she truly has an affinity for.
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:28.670
Jess, I think with this conversation reminded me a lot that Real innovation is human first, There's so much about our identities that are wrapped up in, what we do and how we provide for ourselves, and we get so much meaning from it that I think is important to understand that.
00:37:28.670 --> 00:37:33.951
The outputs of that should also be thinking about the person first.
00:37:33.951 --> 00:37:39.920
Um, and obviously the inputs, the actual work, what we're doing in order to get those outcomes are.
00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:45.860
Going to be focused on how we thrive and, and feel welcome in our place of work.
00:37:45.860 --> 00:37:50.041
her advice, I think for career switchers and job seekers is gold.
00:37:50.041 --> 00:37:58.951
Focus on what is in your control and give yourself permission to start from scratch and know that the rest is just part of the process.
00:37:58.951 --> 00:38:05.385
So if this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who's navigating a transition or trying to find their voice at work.
00:38:05.385 --> 00:38:07.186
And make sure to subscribe.
00:38:07.186 --> 00:38:12.346
Uh, we've got more conversations coming soon about the human side of change.
00:38:12.346 --> 00:38:14.056
Um, and, uh, yeah.
00:38:14.056 --> 00:38:15.525
Thank you so much again for listening.
