Is Reading Really Good for You?

Ezra: No. Hey there and welcome to PubCrawl, the podcast about imagining, writing, editing, designing, publishing, and marketing your book. It's Wednesday, June 17th. Today's episode: The Health and Longevity Benefits of Reading and Writing. Or enjoy your extra four months of old age, four-eyes. I'm Ezra Pond. No, not the author. Nice cat birds. And I'm joined, as I am, every week by my friend and co-host, Dan Greenberger, the author of The Boys Next Door, a novel about the Beatles. Hey there, Dan. Hey there, Ezra. How you doing? I'm doing fine. I'm sorry that we missed our scheduled appointment last week when we were going to do this very topic, but I'm really glad that we're back on the air after missing last week's because of a weird power. Failure at our at our temporary apartment. We're back in our regular house and on our regular Wi-Fi and everything is hunky-dory. Fantastic. Now, but before we start though, I do want to ask you one question. Just as far as this podcast goes, within the confines of this podcast, do you think that I have main character energy? I've been I've been debating this topic within myself. And that is really funny that you say that. When when we started the podcast, I jokingly, not to anybody else, but to myself, thought of you as the talent and me as the producer. And and that was at the point where I felt like I was doing all the organization and you know, helping you set up your your goddamn microphone and everything else. It took forever. Driving out to your place. But I didn't I did think at the beginning be because you Because I think you're a very funny guy and you do voices and you you know, you do imitations and y and and in the first days, Dan, you always brought a joke, which I like. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ so yes, I did at the time think of you as the talent and me as the facilitator. Well, but now I feel like it's it's more of a partnership, I would say. So w you think we both have the main character energy? I think we have very distinct voices and s quite distinct senses of humors. At least in terms of the jokes that we make. And ⁓ so I don't know that the I mean I think that ⁓ I'm not and I'm not being polite. I I think that we do both have main character energy. All right. Good. I'll I'll accept that. I I wasn't even completely sure what the term meant. It's just one that that has been floating around a lot. And I and I actually looked it up because I wasn't sure is main character energy a good thing or a bad thing. And when I did a Google search it said it's both. So I think It's good and bad. So I still don't have a clue. But but I'll I'll accept your reading on the situation. And yeah, I think we do. We're half and half. Is this more of a pop culture reference or is it something to do with creating characters and and stories? No, more of a pop culture reference. I just think it's one of those buzzwords that ⁓ people like to put on everything and and given the fact that our podcast is a two character show. Yeah. I got to wondering, well, who's is you know, is there a main character? And and kinda like what you were saying, I thought early on that you were the heart and soul of this podcast and I was the clown. Which is which is just another way of saying what you stated far more eloquently. But anyway, I didn't think that you were the clown. Okay. All right. I I would say that what you what you're s what you're saying about main character energy is it seems to me it's a slightly polite way of referring to big dick energy. So, you know, you could be the ⁓ C E or the B D E, but I would just point out look who's got the bigger microphone. ⁓ yeah, I know. I was just I was I was gazing with great envy on people's eyes and Protuberance of that. I think I should stop it right now by saying, So Dan, what are we talking about today? Probably a good moment for us to get back on topic. Well, what we are talking about today is the benefits of reading and why reading is good for you. And as with many of the topics that we come up with, this was inspired by an article that I read that really resonated with me in a big way. It was written by a guy named Cal Newport, who is actually a professor of computer science at Georgetown University in the New York Times. And if Can I just take a step back and hats off to Dan. What a great citation that was. If if you look back at the early days of ours, every time you would bring up something, I would say, so where was that from? You'd say, that I I just don't know where that's from. Some guy on the internet. And I jumped that was all in Sorry to jump in. I couldn't help myself. That was such a great citation. Getting better every week. Every week. You know what? That's not the clown. That's not the way a clown behaves on a podcast. That's an C E kind of play you just made there. All right. Now I feel much better. So so let me give you a very, very brief give you I th I think I sent you the article, but ⁓ for our listeners I will give a a brief synopsis of it. So the way that he frames it, and and again, it's talking about the benefits of reading, and the way he frames it is he mentions at the beginning of the article, in 1955, President Eisenhower had a heart attack, which Kind of shocked the nation. He was a strong figure. He was the guy who had won the war for us. And he had a heart attack. And many, many Americans were having heart attacks in the mid to late 50s because they were leading a more and more sedentary lifestyle, ⁓ living in the suburbs, commuting, not really getting out of the house very much. And that heart attack really. Put the idea of diet and exercise into American consciousness. And a few years later, Dr. Kenneth Cooper published a book called Aerobics. Now, when the book was published, less than 24% of Americans exercised. Within 16 years, that number went up to 60%. So attitudes do change. And the point that ⁓ Newport is making in this article. Is that we've reached a point in our cognitive health that is approaching what we had with our physical health in the 50s, is that people are neglecting their cognitive health. And one of the ways that we do that is we are consuming ever tinier pieces of junk food information, which is tweets, which is texts, which is tiny little bits of information. That do not give your brain the workout that it needs to continue to grow stronger. And so his article was very much a plea for people to start using their brains again and use it in big chunks, and that reading and extended reading, reading long pieces like novels, like books, is exactly the way you do it. Very well, very well said, very well cited. Just overall, just a grade A ⁓ C E description of our topic today. No clown today, boy. Yeah. As you know, Dan, ⁓ I felt somewhat reluctant to take on this topic, but I I graciously agreed to do it. And then of course I went around assembling a lot of counter-arguments. And what not counter-arguments, it's not that I don't agree. Sure that it's good. I'm sure that it's good to read and that it's better to read a book. It's by and large, it's better to read a book than a tweet or an you know, an Instagram post or whatever it would be. But the first thing I thought of was my boyhood in the nineteen seventies when I, as starting at the age of I think eleven or twelve, had to commute from Brooklyn to Upper Manhattan to go to school. On the New York City subways. And in the nineteen seventies, the New York City subways were of kind of a hellscape. ⁓ if you've ever seen the the movie The Warriors, you have a a decent idea of Warriors, come out and play. ⁓ it the Warriors was essentially a s a g a gang that needed to navigate through the New York City subways to the end of Brooklyn, Coney Island. So it's a longer trip than I used to take on a daily basis. But each tr subway station was was filled with one sort of menacing group or another. And you would have there were they had battles with each of them. ⁓ and as a, you know, as an eleven or twelve year old, a a skinny, I would say, eleven or twelve year old wearing, I would add a blue blazer with a gold insignia on the breast pocket to go to my school in what was a fairly sketchy, ⁓ and relatively poor neighborhood. The school was plopped down in a in what is now a you know a very nice area of the upper west side, but in the nineteen seventies, New York City was in ru in rough shape. Anyway, I was mugged and beaten up and ⁓ and other bad things happened to me, you know, not every day, but enough that I was fairly well traumatized for quite a while. And I developed an incredible level of anxiety about people coming into this you know, I was on high alert all the time, watching everybody who comes in because I I I just like in the Warriors, you had to be looking out for whoever the local toughs were. ⁓ yeah. And ⁓ I was on the train and very unhappily I was alone on a train car, which is not something I would ever normally do, but ⁓ a lot of people got off and I didn't pay attention to that. And then one guy got on and he looked really scary and tough and five years older than me, just the kind of dude who would normally, you know. Mug me. Try to get me my bus try to get my bus pass off of me, or you know, whatever it was that that they were trying to get off of this little skinny kid with a blue blazer with a gold insignia on his breast pocket. And he sits down right across from me in an empty train. I was like, ⁓ man, this is now it's all going down. And then he sort of squigs around on his butt. And from out of his back pocket, he takes a paperback book. And I thought, well. It just goes to show how wrong I was about this guy. And I relax a little bit and l let my shoulders slump down. And then I sort of look across and what he's reading is a book that's called The Executioner Rides Again. ⁓ god. So I just I d I think that there's there's reading and there's reading. And is is it really I understand that just reading books is better than reading tweets, but Yeah, she rides again. I was wondering the whole time, how is he gonna bring this back to reading is good for you? But but you you made it work. I I give you credit. I I ⁓ in the same way that you've had to overcome your clown status, I'm I'm still walking too far, too making too long of a trip for my jokes. Well, but it's it's a good, it's it's an interesting point. And I would say, you know, for all you know, maybe that kid to you know had ended up with a first rate mind because he had the habit of reading. I mean, maybe he's in Rikers Island now or maybe he's dead, but I I'm gonna right. Looking back on it, I would imagine the former not rather the latter. I think that somebody I I get it. Somebody who's reading a book on the subway, even if it is a slightly horrifying title to read on a New York City and just j you know, just To keep in mind, New York City subways in the nineteen seventies, not only were they were they truly dangerous because of the crime, they also had all been covered with ⁓ with graffiti. So you couldn't see out. You when the doors closed and you were with the guy reading a book called The Executioner Rides Again, truly that was your entire world. Well, and I and I was also thinking back as you were telling that story to Bernie Getz. You know, who found himself in exactly the situation that that you did, probably one too many times, and he responded in a slightly different way than you did. Well, he he he apparently had been reading the Executioner Rides again himself. But yeah, and it was I think it was Fourteenth Street that that was. It was around fourteenth Street, yeah. That's right. No, that was a very memorable, ⁓ memorable point. ⁓ It was indeed the New Yorkiest sort of New York you could ever have. But I remember that you you moved to New York only in the early eighties and and and got some of the fruity fruity import of of the true the the greatest vintage of New York, which was s seventy three through seventy eight, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. No, I was I was well past that. I think the it was already I think the disnification of Times Square was already beginning. I don't had it all begun then. The main thing was that they replaced a lot of the the the subways and they ⁓ and and you couldn't paint over the windows of the new subways. They had some came up with some technological solution for that. ⁓ interesting. So you could see out the windows in the subway car, but that was really a great feeling. So you could you could imagine yourself like rolling roll Look, look what he's doing to me. Call the police. ⁓ man. Wow. You know what? While we're here, Dan, I need to tell you one more story. ⁓ this is a much more recent vintage of the subway. ⁓ here was the scariest thing that I ever happened to be on the subway. And this includes having been held up at knife point and having been held in a hot headlock and smashed to the ground. ⁓ my god. But as an adult, I was riding home on the subway, not too crowded subway. It was in the evening, on a line that was the A line, which was sort of famous for p n not having the greatest clientele, let's call it. And I'm sitting there and a guy sits down across from me and and we're at the one end of the subway, not too many people around, and he looks around and he takes out of his bag an umbrella and he opens the umbrella and holds it over his head inside the subway. I got out. I just like I I don't know what's going on here, but I gotta get out. Like it's like a big sign saying I am insane. I am about to go completely berserk on this train car. Man. And no one's gonna stop me even if you can see the windows. Well, I think you may have some tales to tell in in future writing pieces of yours about your early days and that that's I have always wanted to write about the seventies in New York and I've never quite struck the right balance. Yeah, yeah. No, I I would encourage it because that was a very, very unique time and place. Well, ⁓ so we were talking back to the topic. Yeah, I think before we got into New York, so yes, the benefits of reading. And I was gonna say, you know, because this article framed it in terms of President Eisenhower and how he kind of turned ⁓ our attention to this this issue in American life. And it made me think, you know, just imagine what it would be like if we had a president who got most of his infra his or her information ⁓ from social media, ⁓ in tiny little sound bites. And what would that do to his or her brain? Now, this is just a hypothetical. I mean, I don't think America would ever elect somebody like that, but if they did, it does make you wonder what what that Person would be like Well, I did do some research after reading the Cal Newport article that you shared with me. And I I found, probably not surprisingly, that there have been studies showing clearly that reading does have an impact on health and longevity, which was surprising to me. A 2016 study found that among readers versus non-readers, the readers are lived four months longer and it was a good study. It had many thousands it was a very, very large longitudinal study. And it it was able to adjust for, you know, the benefits of of wealth and other ⁓ other things that will could impact the your longevity and that taking all that into account, if you are a reader, you will live longer by four months, if that's what ⁓ if that's what You means the most to you. Of course, those four months are probably the worst four months of your life. But you do have those four months. And I I suppose when we all get to those last four months, we're like, give me those four months. But I'll take it. I'll take it. I don't care how much. I mean, I always hope that I won't be that guy, but we probably will. Well, but it it is very much like staying in shape physically. You and I, I think, are both very dedicated to keeping ourselves in shape physically. We both go to the gym, we're both active for our age. and and it I remember being told once that ⁓ your health, when you get into your, you know, middle to late years, you know, you you look at your health in the way you look at beachfront real estate. You're you're not trying to expand your house. You're just trying to prevent it from sliding into the ocean. I have not heard that. I've not heard that comparison. That's very good. And and I do think it's true ⁓ mentally as well. What they call cognitive fitness is what is what this this topic really comes down to. And ⁓ you know, yeah, you if I'll take the extra four months of life. But I'll also take the additional years of being able to think clearly and consider questions and problems clearly as opposed to being in cognitive decline, which definitely happens as one gets older. Well, ⁓ here's another study that I learned about, and I should say that the earlier one that I cited, I I learned about in an article in The New Yorker. ⁓ it also cited a two thousand eleven study from the Annual Review of Psychology, which used an analysis of MRI brain scans of participants, which showed that when people read about an experience, they display stimulation in the same neurological regions as when they actually go through the experience being described themselves. So in other words, when you're reading, you're drawing on the same brain brain networks as when ⁓ as when you're actually doing or or you know experiencing somebody else's feelings. So the reading actually is is making similar brain activity as r actual life. Trevor Burrus Yeah. And it and I've I've read ⁓ studies like that too, where it stimulates more and more diverse parts of your brain than shorter chunks of information do. And and Well but that's why I say, you know, when somebody says, Do you know how to harpoon a whale, I say, no how. I've done it dozens of times. Well, I think that's when you get that's when you get into dementia that you then Yeah, yeah, sure. I've parked underwater. Yeah, I have. Yeah, I remember it very clearly. This was this was a point that that like for instance, when if you read any one of the Harry Potter books before you saw the movie of Harry Potter, you have to then construct what does Harry Potter look like? What does Hogwarts look like? All of that takes place inside your brain. Right. When you when you see a movie, it's there in front of you. You just have to look at it and and observe. Part of the pleasure of reading is that you contribute to the creative process. You have to envision those things in your head, imagine them, see them, hear them, taste them. And I think that's again, very good for your brain. Aaron Powell Here's an interesting question for you, Dan. I I'm sure that that's well, I don't know. I I would kind of wonder to what extent I do visualize what I'm reading. I feel like that doesn't describe my mind space when I'm reading. As an example, I've been ⁓ I've been reading Turgeniev and I'm now reading rereading Fathers and Sons. and w ⁓ it's a very f you know foreign world, but I don't think that I'm picturing it in my mind. I don't think I'm Building that image in my mind. Do you feel like you do that when you're reading? Well, I am I am still working on that book ⁓ that we talked about last time last time we met. ⁓ it's the the time loop novel. ⁓ right. ⁓ on the calculation of volume. On the calculation of volume. Thank you. Yes. See how how well my brain is working now that I've clearly this book has made a deep. Well But that's in a way, that's a very sensual book. So I do think that I have been enjoying it for that reason, because it's this woman's observation. You know, she's stuck in this time loop, the day is repeating itself over and over again. Yeah. And so she just obsesses over every little sound that she hears, every little smell in the air, ⁓ the the way the light on a rainy day looks in the morning, how it changes into the afternoon. So there's a lot of that kind of description in this particular book. Now maybe ⁓ Turgenev, not so much, but ⁓ but yeah, I think the book that I'm reading right now, I do. I am visually You are getting a picture in your mind's eye. Interesting. Yeah. I I mean as you as you described that book, I felt like I too could put something in my mind's eye. So perhaps Perhaps I do that in retrospectively or I don't know. I'm not sure. It does it just I never think of myself. I I I think of the, you know, the characters that I might know best. I'm and I'm thinking specifically of the, you know, the characters that were in the books that I read as a teenager and a young man that made that incredible impact on me, the way the way young readers get to have that experience. I have no image in my mind of of Holden Caulfield from Catherine the Rye or of ⁓ of Alexander Portnoy from Portnoy's Complaint or really any any of the books that made a huge impact on me. At least I don't think I do. Aaron Yeah, and it could be that that's just not something that one retains after reading. You know, maybe it's something that happens while you're reading, but doesn't necessarily stay with you. Aaron Or to your point, I mean I think that, you know, those two characters, Port Portnoy and and Caulfield. you know, exist in a world that was very familiar to me. It was New York in the, you know, New York and postwar New York era. ⁓ whereas, you know, the the world that's being described in ⁓ on the calculation of volume is ⁓ as I recall, it's in France somewhere in southern France. Right. ⁓ which is a world that I know s slightly, but not very well. And and you were right that she does she does write ⁓ at great length, you know, ⁓ about the sense the censorium of her world. Right. And it's really It's very powerful that way. And I I do feel like I did picture that. So I don't know. I and then there's, you know, the your first example being Harry Potter. There I find that ⁓ in mysteries and in ⁓ books that are d highly plotted, you're I I feel like I'm less likely to do that because I'm sort of hurtling forward with this. I'm much more involved with the story rather than the the descriptions of of the world that they're in. Even though obviously without those descriptions, the experience of the story is is going to be you know, compromised in a lot of ways. Aaron Yeah, no, I would I would agree with that. And and even the the book that I'm that I'm writing at this point ⁓ is not one that I have ⁓ an enormous amount of description of what the street looks like, what the bookstore looks like, what this, that, and the other. Aaron Well, but that's what Chat GPT is for. Well, I'm glad you brought up. Chat GPT because another article that I read from Derek Thompson in The Atlantic. This is another critique of AI, that it makes everything so much easier for you. It's there for convenience. And the idea of, like, you know, another thing that we mentioned last week is I told you that I was I was writing a speech for my daughter's upcoming wedding, and that so many people are using AI to write speeches like that. Yes. And and the point that he makes in the article is that using AI to to write a speech like that, or really to write just about anything, would be the equivalent of having a machine that you could take to the gym to do your workout for you. You know, it's you're kind of You know what? That's an incredible idea. I think that would be a million seller. I should go to the gym. I sure did. Yeah. My robot lifted forty reps at 200 pounds. Like call it sweat GPT. But I I keep coming up against all the other conveniences of modern life, not least calculators. ⁓ Keyboards. I mean, my handwriting is well nigh impossible to read. And I believe that there have been studies showing that that writing by hand has has value, brain value, and not just, you know, it's not just something you're doing with your fingers. It it actually has kind of a an effect on the way you think and your ability to think. And yet I am not gonna be writing longhand. Yeah, well that's true. I mean, at a certain point you gotta you gotta go with the flow. And and you know, another another point that all of these articles make is that we are becoming more of an oral ⁓ society where we talk our ideas rather than read or write them. And look at us. We're doing a podcast. So, you know, we're we're part of that. But I'm just saying every now and then you gotta swim the other way. Next week I'm just going to send you a long letter, Dan. And I will read the entire thing into the microphone and people will love it. But but it's like but you know, and and another thing that you and I were talking about ⁓ last time was the idea of writing letters. That in the old days, when you went away to Europe for a semester or for a vacation or whatever, you would write these long, long letters where you spend two, three, four, five pages. It's saying exactly what you wanted to express and developing the idea, expanding the idea, really building outward on your ideas as opposed to what we have now, which is a text. Hey, how you doing? Good. What's up? Hey, I'm in Europe. ⁓ cool. You know, it's can I get back to you? I have my coffee's beeping. So I just think that those all of those ways in which we broaden our brains and and go into great detail of what our thoughts are, what we're trying to express, what we're trying to understand, and make it broad and expansive rather than tiny and bite-size are very good for you. Well, I did you know, if we're gonna shift over to sort of the the the health benefits of of writing versus reading. I I was surprised to see that there's generally fairly well documented evidence of the benefits of ⁓ the actual benefits of writing, including that it can contribute to reducing stress and anxiety. It can it's been found to ⁓ be helpful in terms of processing trauma. So that if you sit down and write, I guess adjacently to whatever it is that you You what you've suffered. Perhaps I should be writing this is the reason I need to write that story about being mugged over and over again in New York in nineteen seventies. I'll finally get over my trauma. And come out into the world with the rest of us. But as an ⁓ beyond that, it supposedly improves moods. It in fact it's been found to boost the immune system. Expressive journaling strengthens immune spell cells and can even speed up the healing of wounds, supposedly. Hmm. I g I can believe it. I mean it's supports cardiovascular health, Dan. It's like a ticket to long, long old senescence, a old age. Well, you know, somebody there's actually here I'm gonna quote someone else who is a she's a cognitive neuroscientist named Marianne Wolfe, who has written extensively on this. And what she suggests, which I think is a great idea, she says, deep reading is our species bridge to insight and novel thought. Perhaps consuming a few dozen book pages a day should become the new 10,000 daily steps, a basic foundation of activity to maintain cognitive fitness. Just to point out though, that the 10,000 step thing was actually a it was basically a marketing. That was put out by a Japanese shoe company. Really? ⁓ my God. Who can you trust anymore, you know? So I think that as a as a publisher, I should be like supporting this idea. It's like, yes, we should all be reading thirty to fifty pages per day for optimal health. But no, you're just knocking it down. Driving people right back to their social media feed. I know that all of these studies have found these benefits to it, but I just want to point out something that we've talked about in the past, which is that sitting is bad for you. Sitting slows your metabolism and reduces calorie burn. It significantly increases the risk of chronic conditions like heart disease and type two diabetes and cancers. But I think I've been clear that I do not Unless you're like Dan Greenberger and you're doing your reading lying down, possibly with the tennis game on the TV. Thank you. Yes. That's You're not gonna mitigate these with you could be hurting your you're probably doing dreadful damage to yourself by sitting around reading like this. ⁓ man, I just can't win. I keep trying. I think I've found it and then it turns out I'm killing myself even faster. I guess, you know, the reason that I was resistant to take on this topic, I I I've to be clear, I I understand that reading, yes, reading is good for you. And I believe that writing is I at least for myself, I really writing is how I think. But there's a part of me that feels like for me at least, reading is one of the great Pleasures of life. And I hate the idea of turning it into something that's essentially like a daily multivitamin or like eating stuff. The equivalent of flossing your teeth. Why are you reading? Because I want to get all those, I want to clear all the old food out of the pockets in my brain. Well, but I but I love playing tennis. And and I do it because I love it, but I also do it because unlike reading, which adds four months to your life, supposedly tennis adds ten years to your life. But that's you know, you can say the same about almost any exercise. I do it because I love it and it's good for you. And I would say the same thing about reading. And and I I did also want to add, I think the reason why this article resonated so much with me is is from very particularly where I am in terms of my career, which is that I worked for the last twenty, twenty five years making short form videos. Yeah. ⁓ which is which was something that I never aspired to do. It was something I just fell into, and then weirdly it turned into the coin of the realm. You know, everybody's making short form videos these days. And when I finally left my job doing that, I figured that what I would end up doing is, ⁓ I'll start making short videos on my own. It's something I know how to do. It's something that's very popular. ⁓ there's probably a big audience for it, et cetera, et cetera. What I've what I discovered once I did stop doing my job is then I got back to writing this novel that I've been working on. I got the very nice invitation from you to do a podcast about books and novels and writing and publishing. And I just found it so nourishing to be able to think in those big terms again that I've had very, very little desire. To get back into making the small stuff, making those quick, quick little videos, punchy, fun little tiny videos. And I've just loved writing the this big giant novel and thinking about big giant novels and reading big giant novels. And I just, it just feels nourishing, is the best way I can describe it. Do you think the pleasure you're taking in really involving yourself in lengthier works, whether it's sitting down to think about a topic like today's and and spending an hour talking about it and being prepared to talk about it, or, you know, really simmering in a long book and and and enjoying that? Is that something that was not really to your taste? Let's say in your twenties or your thirties or forties and now it is again, or w do you think that it's partially a a function of older age and just having patience or whatever it might be? No, I think I did ⁓ have a taste for it in my younger day too, because I certainly did read and I wrote long form pieces. ⁓ and it was my intention to make my career doing that. Right. Again, it's just kind of the way it it worked out and and the more that I got involved in my career, the less time and energy I had to do those big, longer things. And that was something that I I felt very acutely toward the end of my run ⁓ at CBS that I just didn't have the energy to do a full day's work doing these tiny punchy fun little videos and then at night dive into this gigantic pool of big ideas. Yep. And No, I definitely agree. I think that for me too, the you know, the demands of of fatherhood and career are energy suckers. And and I envy people who have just limitless energy to take care of all of those things. But as you say, when you get older with more and more responsibilities, ⁓ those do take a lot of the energy out of you. And and yeah, I I would love to have ⁓ ton of energy and get everything done that I want to get done, but it it that that does as you point out, that does get harder also as you get older because we do lose a certain amount of energy. Can't well having gone just through you know we're we're still in the midst of of renovating the house and we've moved our furniture back in after stage one of the renovation and and I I can't tell you how many things on my body hurt right now as opposed to two weeks ago when they did not hurt. So Yeah, it's making you ⁓ want to go back to the gym and make your body hurt in that particular way as opposed to this. But I'm gonna go hurt the other part of my body now. But you know, something that you said about playing tennis. is something that I need to work on in my life. I stopped playing games for sports ⁓ in my late forties. ⁓ up until then I played hockey, squash, and tennis. most of them on a weekly basis. As I became more and more injury prone and also just had less and less and less time, ⁓ I just let those sort of squeeze out and I ended up going to the gym because I felt like I could get a fast workout in and and and that was what happened. And also I was just less likely to hurt myself if I just went running or biking and and lifted weights. But there's not a lot of joy in those things. And that kind of takes me back to that question about taking joy in reading. And I do resist the idea that reading is good for me because I wanna I I want reading I feel like appreciating art, it should be like Lord Byron. You know, it's mad, bad, dangerous to know. No, but my favorite books. They're not wholesome. Right. Yeah, no, my my brother has a a term for that. He'll say, Yeah, it's it the movie was was pretty good, but it's a spinach movie. It's something that you watch because it's good for you. And and I totally get how that takes a certain amount of the joy and pleasure out of it because you're going, ⁓ this is good for me, this is good for me. Yeah. But but I that's it's so funny because you know, ⁓ when we originally scheduled this this episode, the title I gave it was I Say It's Spinach and I Say The Hell with It. Yeah, I th I saw that. Now, is that a line from ⁓ something? It's a famous caption to a New Yorker cartoon that was written by E. B. White. ⁓ and it was a a daughter pushing a plate of of dinner back at her mother or her father saying, I say it's spinach and I say the hell with it. It's really one of the great one of the great captions. Yeah. Well, no, that's and and I get what you're saying, and and I do see that that's true, but I would just urge you and our listeners to f try to find the joy in things that also give you good health. Because it's it's not that hard to do. And I find, you know, you know that I am the most picky eater in the world. And I am picky is just so not sufficient to describe the kind of eater you are, Dan. And and I can't and and I'll hats off to you. You are a much less picky eater than you were as a young man. Well and but yes, I've definitely well I'm I'm a little less insane about it. I'm still I haven't looked I haven't looked on your napkin at the end of meals that we've had together. I was like what the hell? That whole the entire chopped salad is in there Yeah, you know that that that planting ⁓ pot that was leaking? That was actually me after a night of dinner at your place. But that's your secret to gardening. You dine outside, spit out everything you don't like. No, but I but I have ⁓ what I have done, I think, over the years is that I've found the pleasure in eating salad, in eating Vegetables and I really do enjoy them just as much as I used to enjoy eating bacon. You know, I love bacon, but I don't eat it very much because it's not good for you. I I love salad too, and I eat that a lot because it is good for you. All right, well, let's just go into this a little bit. Have you moved beyond eating only lemons or have you added any other citrus fruits to your mix? No. No, I mean let's not let's not get let's not get crazy orange and they're so good. Yeah. I like I say, I'm not I'm nobody's ⁓ you know, poster child for for well balanced eating, but I do eat very healthy diet and and I think that you do. I have observed this and it is true. Yeah. So all I'm saying is find the joy in doing things that are good for you and that will make you live longer and live happier than ⁓ if you didn't. Well I think I'm gonna go downstairs and eat some healthful melon and then maybe run to the gym for a quick lift. You say then I'm gonna go back to fixing the house. And then like read for a while just to calm yourself down and stop throwing things. ⁓ well here is something that one could do in one's later years, which I don't do yet, but I I feel like I should. ⁓ I don't read during the day. Hmm. Hmm. I feel guilty about that. I feel like, ⁓ I'm just sitting around reading. Well, I I get that. And I have the same problem. And I and I think I've told you this, I sometimes drive all the way across town, which I do on the weekend, just so I can sit on the beach and read. my book there, because there I feel I got no distractions. It's a beautiful place to be. But yeah, no, it it's really hard and to to read during the day. I mean, 90% of people in America never read because they're too busy with their phones, they're too busy with their jobs and everything, all the distractions of modern life. And yeah, it's not easy. You know, and and what I'm preaching, which is No, read a long book every day. Read, you know, twenty pages every day. It's it's not easy to do. But Well, especially when you have to make time to listen to our podcast. That's the the whole day shot right there. So ⁓ going back and listening to the good parts a second time, you know, it could take two hours out of your day. Yeah, ⁓ that's true. But the best two hours of your whole day, trust me. Alright, this is from this is from a book I recently read. See if you can identify it. Rise from bed, 6 AM. Dumbbell Exercise and Wall Scaling, 615 to 630. Study electricity, etc., 715 to 815. Read one improving book or magazine per week. Do you know who ⁓ who wrote that schedule for himself? I'm really I'm really hoping. I I'm I'm I'm gonna put it out there hopefully. That it is Scott Fitzgerald, the author of The Great Gatsby. Aaron It is actually Jay Gatsby, the character of the Great Gatsby Aaron. I'm glad because I suddenly realized, ⁓ my God, the street could be at risk here. Trevor We haven't mentioned it yet, so I felt like I had to dig that one out. Yeah, see, even Jay Gatsby recognized the Improving books and exercise. And look how well things worked out for him. Aaron Powell I I it's true. You could not it's it's that's what I call a storybook ending. Well, I think on that note we have we have done it once again. Thank you to all of our listeners, as Dan likes to call you crawlers. Yes, thank you, crawlers. Who's a good crawler? You are, you are. And you and you and you and you. ⁓ no, that's one too many. I think I was counting one of ⁓ twice, but you know. Those crawlers move fast. Well, whether you're human or ⁓ bot, we appreciate you. Pup Crawl is a production of Tag and Rog Press and our theme music is by the abundantly talented Zack Palmer who has a new song out that is absolutely great. Go listen to it on Spotify. I ⁓ I appreciate you, Dan. I appreciate getting to spend an hour Chatting with you and and preparing too preparing too, because I don't I don't you you may have you may wonder if you're ⁓ C E. I always want to make sure that I try to I I I wanna make sure that I have something to make you laugh 'cause I want to keep up with you. Yeah, no, I you do and you did and ⁓ we will go on having these ⁓ these conversations 'cause I always look forward to them. All right, me too. ⁓ we will see you next week when our topic is going to be something exciting that we ⁓ wait, we do have it we we have a potential topic for next week, but I won't let that cat out of the bag just. Quite sure yet. But yeah, we're working on it. Working hard for you, our caller. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, MCE Dan Greenberger. Thank you, MCE. We'll see you next time everyone. The ⁓ bye bye.