Exploring Medicinal Mindfulness w/ Daniel McQueen

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Welcome folks to the Psychedelic Passage Podcast.
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My name is Jimmy Wynne, your host.
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We are here with another wonderful guest.
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As you all noticed, I mean, you're used to me doing these solo podcasts and these solo things.
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And I find it also important for us to establish dialogue across all of the different sectors of psychedelia, you know, the people who I think are doing things in a mindful way, in an ethical way, and a way of service.
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And so we've had authors, we've had, you know, different service providers, we've had all different types of folks, researchers, scientists, and whatnot.
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And our guest today has been somebody that I've been wanting to get on the podcast for quite a long time.
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We've we've known each other for quite a long time.
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I'm trying to think back to when I first connected with Daniel McQueen.
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So Daniel has a master's degree in transpersonal counseling psychology from Naroba University in Boulder, Colorado, and is a psychedelic specialist with nearly 30 years of psychedelic experience, with 17 of those years as a professional guide.
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Daniel specializes in treating acute cases, a PTSD, generational trauma, and is also interested in using psychedelic medicines for critical problem solving.
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Daniel's the author of Psychedelic Cannabis, unique blends and therapeutic techniques to treat trauma and transform consciousness, and started an international movement of practitioners using cannabis or as a classic psychedelic in professional settings.
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He's currently working on a second book, Safe Travels, a Psychedelic Community Survival Guide, which I think is an awesome title, and is exploring safe psychedelic use practices and community sustainability agreements.
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Through one of his organizations, DMTX, he's a lead DMT guide, psychedelic specialist and chaplain.
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He has directly led over 30 DMT journeys in skillfully and individually guided sessions.
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He guides journeys through advanced mindfulness-based psychedelic therapy techniques, somatic and trauma-informed forward and art-integrated process, and also transpersonal psychedelic therapy practice that he's been teaching psychedel guides for the last 14 years or so.
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Daniel has a wonderful team around him of guides, medical providers, and an awesome staff that he says keeps their ship sailing.
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And probably most importantly, Daniel is a husband of Allison McQueen, who holds an MA, is an LPC, an approved clinical supervisor, and a board-certified art therapist.
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She's also a licensed natural medicine clinical facilitator and clinical director of the Center for Medicinal Mindfulness.
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This is the first organization that I know Daniel through when he founded that with his wife.
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Daniel is the father of two glorious children to whom he devotes his work in this world.
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And one thing that I really like about Daniel is that he recognizes the privilege.
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He says it's a privilege beyond belief that he can openly practice as a psychedelic guide in his hometown, of which we reside in Boulder, Colorado.
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So welcome, Daniel, to the show.
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It's so great to have you here.
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Thanks, Jimmy.
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I'm really excited to be here.
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Thanks for having me.
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Yeah, as I'm reading your bio, I'm like, dang, we gotta get Allison on here too.
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But we will we'll we'll settle for you here today.
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All right, fair enough.
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Yeah.
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I'll take it.
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Yeah, for for folks who just to share like a little bit of history.
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I first met you, Daniel, during my time in the Colorado cannabis industry.
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And I was working for at the time, I think, one of the more prominent organic cannabis cultivators in Colorado, who uh now I don't I don't even think they're really around anymore.
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But one of the things that I I really enjoyed was that in our work culture, we also did really believe in not only cultivating these wonderful plants, but just like cultivating ourselves.
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And so my boss at the time had connected with you, and we actually set up some of these.
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You had been doing these conscious cannabis circles, and we actually did one as like a half-day retreat with like our entire team, like growers, dispensary folks, you know, the wholesale folks, people in the lab, and all of that.
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And it's a big group.
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This was the first time that I really got to understand like that intersection between cannabis and psychedelic experiences because most people kind of talk about cannabis as being like psychoactive but not psychedelic.
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And so I mean, what do you remember about that time?
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So I'm trying to think.
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That must have been That was before COVID.
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We were at that cannabis-friendly business center in Denver.
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Cultivate Synergy.
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Yeah, yeah.
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That was where it was It was like 20 people were there.
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Yeah, it would have been Yeah, this would have been like 2016 or something like that.
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So probably about like a decade ago.
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It was great.
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I mean y'all smoked quite a bit of cannabis, I'll give you that.
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Yeah.
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I was so like it was still early in my career, and I was like, I wasn't sure if cannabis as a psychedelic would work with heavy smokers.
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And after that day, I was like, no, this really works with everybody, and uh, you just need to make sure people get enough if they're, you know, more regular user.
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It was lovely, you know.
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We were able to share the psychedelic nature with the medicine you all grew with intention, and that's really special.
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Super unique for me because it was the same hands and the people who cultivated the plant, and then you got to come in and like curate because one of the things that I really appreciated about you was you know, I think in like the mainstream application of cannabis, we lose so much about the the nuances of of this.
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And so a lot of it is like how much THC and what other cannabinoids, and is it an indica or sativa, or does this lift you up, or does this mellow you out?
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What's your energy levels?
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And one thing that I actually thought was really cool was that you were actually blending different strains of cannabis, and some might be a little bit more calming to the body, but some might have a little bit more like of a racier aspect to it.
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And my understanding was that you were really tuning into like what this does to like the nervous system, maybe.
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But can you can you talk about that a little bit about uh how how you kind of came into that approach?
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Oh, how did I come?
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Yeah, I think it was guided by spirit and I was in the right place at the right time, and and then I just had a hunch.
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And so we started making these blends, and people were reporting.
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Like one one friend said, Daniel, if I didn't trust you and know you as a friend, I would swear you put DMT in that.
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And after that, I was like, we got to really pay attention to this and figure out what's going on.
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And so it was a it was a combination of just luck, I think, that really created those first blends.
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And then I what I had to do was kind of deconstruct it and figure out what happened to make the blends that way.
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So, so you're correct.
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I I think, Jimmy, it is a nervous system response.
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There's this cannabis can affect the nervous system before it bifurcates between the parasympathetic and sympathetic.
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So the parasympathetic meaning the relaxing, you know, the side that relaxes us, and the sympathetic is the side that keeps us awake and alert.
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What happens with when we make these blends, it activates both sides of the nervous system at the same time.
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And so you're both hyper alert and fully awake while being almost in a dreamlike state.
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So deep, like the body's so deeply relaxed.
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And then so it's almost like a waking dream state, a lucid waking dream state with a psychedelic theme to it, right?
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Like you know how you know psychedelic inner visuals can have like rainbows and colors and things like that, right?
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So it definitely has a psychedelic theme to it.
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So it's absolutely fascinating.
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And this is the space that trauma, I think, is healed in, right?
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Like fully safe knowing you're held and supported while fully alert to your inner experience.
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And and something about that combination helps the body process old injuries.
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We can talk about the trauma side of it, but it's not it's not just for trauma resolution or therapeutic.
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It is it is a real psychedelic trip, the stereotypical classic psychedelic experience.
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Yeah, I was talking to one of the members of our community just earlier today about how in the process of trying to understand things that we don't understand a lot about, whether it's something in science or something in medicine, is you know, we try to apply these like labels and we try to apply these, you know, form factors and definitions to it, of which I've seen happen with cannabis, and I believe that this is what's happening with psychedelics, where we say, oh, it it is for this, but it's not for that, or this approach through trauma and therapeutic lenses is somehow like superior to let's say more recreational or or spiritual exploration.
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And so I I think that's really interesting, and also I just read something about the the power of what I understand are like hypnagogic states, like states that are somewhere between that waking and sleeping, which I think is what you're talking about.
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And there is some some early brain scan studies and things that try to understand what different brain waves and things are, you know, flowing through at any given time.
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But I'm glad you brought that piece up about DMT because I remember a conversation after our company cannabis retreat, which was, you know, one of our guys, Jason, he was chatting with you and he was kind of describing how there was almost a psychedelic effect.
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And you I remember you talking at the time where you were actually talking a lot about like still the stillness in the body, how if you try to really keep your body as still as possible, but if there's a little twitch or a little tremor or a little something to actually allow it to happen.
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And it and if you try to hold both the stillness of the body, but also allowing the body to kind of do its own thing without being controlled through the mind, then that can actually initiate more of these DMT-like experiences.
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And I didn't realize at the time, because I'd never heard the word before, but you were talking about somatic processing.
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Like you were talking about, you know, the the senses of the soma or like of the body.
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And so that I gotta tell you, I gotta thank you for that because I didn't realize at the time that planted a seed for me, that then like opened this world up for me on this like level and type of you know connection here.
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I'm really glad to hear that.
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That's that's really special.
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I tell people that if all you did is shake in this session, we would have an incredibly successful journey.
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But what happens is while people are shaking, they're also having a you know profound psychedelic experience.
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And so, yeah, this is what you're describing.
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So, so cannabis is a we call it a somatic psychedelic in our community, an endopsychedelic, right?
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Endocannabinoid uh psychedelic.
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And it reduces the tension, the innate tension held in the body, that cannabinoids do, and it allows the body to discharge trauma, right?
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And it's through shaking or shivering.
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People even say, I feel cold, but I'm not cold.
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I don't I don't know what's going on.
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It's like a shivering in the body.
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And that's the body resetting from old injuries.
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And oftentimes when in the when a cannabis experience, it's paired with uh a lot of memory recall.
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People revisit things that happened to them in their past.
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And some of these can be like what we would call like kind of like stereotypical traumatic experiences, but not necessarily just big experiences.
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And so it's a combination of like the body being able to finally let go of something, and the cannabis specifically addresses tension held in the body with the cannabinoids, but then there's this psychedelic trait too.
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So, yeah, that's a that's a core component of what we do here at our center, especially when we're working with trauma, is help people the body wants to do something that it couldn't do, right?
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Push something off or run away.
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And all of that stuff gets stuck inside and it's held in the memory system, in the brain.
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And the cannabis helps us release it.
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Yeah, folks know I'm a big fan of uh Peter Levine's work.
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He talks about this, you know, somatic trauma processing piece.
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There's that book, uh, very well-known book, Waking the Tiger, just a whole world of body work and and things like that.
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Now, I actually heard something, uh, a kind of a contrarian study recently.
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I'd love to get your thoughts on this because you know, we we hear about Bessel Vanderkoelk's work, that book, The Body Keeps a Score, and some of those interpretations actually would posit that the tissues of our body actually store the trauma.
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And and that that may be one interpretation of it, though I think a lot of somatic practitioners may understand that whether it's actually stored in our cellular tissue or maybe stored in the I'm probably gonna say the wrong words here, like the dendritic memory of our like nervous system.
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There may still be this like releasing through the body piece, which I hear you, you know, you know, talking about.
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And so, you know, we're talking about somatic experiences during psychedelic experiences, of which I agree with you.
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Like, there are people who can process things, but they may not always have to like relive that trauma, which I actually find very, you know, fascinating here.
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So just talk to me a little bit to you about this intersection of somatic work and psychedelic work, and you know, what do you feel are the most like if I was a person who's listening to this and I'm like, okay, that's intriguing.
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Okay, got it.
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So there's maybe this is why feeling a little stuck with 20 years of therapy because I'm like just trying to work it like through the lens of the mind.
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Cognitive, right, right.
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Or the emotional body.
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No, I I I agree.
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I don't know the answer.
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Like, is it is the memory of the experience actually stored in the cell cell, or is it in the mind?
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The experience is as if the memory is coming out of that area of the body.
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Like that's what people experience subjectively.
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There's a nervous system thing that occurs when someone experiences something difficult.
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If we want to step into the word clinical trauma level, people dissociate, right?
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Um, and the system shuts down to protect itself.
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And so we experience what happens, but we don't have a lot of recall for it because it didn't get processed correctly in the brain.
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It got stored before it went through the frontal cortex of awareness.
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And what these medicines do, MDMA is really good with this too, is what it does is it is it re-allows that sensory input that we experienced previously to get reprocessed through the brain in a way that helps the symptoms of trauma release.
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And the body has to shake it out, you know, as well.
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So, so you know, most traumas aren't just emotional, right?
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Or aren't just cognitive.
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There can be a physical injury involved.
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And and so how the body stores trauma is in inflammation, right?
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And tension.
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And cannabis specifically, the endocannabinoid system is designed to reduce inflammation and reduce that tension in the body.
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And what for whatever reason, when you do that in the when you bring awareness to the body as you're experiencing these sensations of release, it opens up the neural pathways of the memories and uh the recall, and and there's some sort of resolution that occurs in that process.
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And it, you know, and like with psychedelics or MDMA or you know, they can be hyper-visual.
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You know, like you can be back in the space, you know, that uh re-experiencing it.
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And then other times it's just no content at all, like you said, and it's just a physiological release.
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And, you know, both seem to work just fine.
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I think the I'm glad you said that because I think that there's a lot of pressure for people who want to do it the right way or they want to get it right.
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And so that also talks a little bit about this labeling aspect, yeah.
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About almost challenging the preconceived notions on what defines a therapeutic experience.
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And so I certainly have had some of my own clients who are like, is that okay that I just like shook and just cried like a baby, but I didn't have these breakthroughs or these insights or these amazing connecting the dot things?
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And then vice versa, we have people who are like, I feel like I connected a lot of dots, but I didn't have a very like physical, you know, experience, you know, either.
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So I really like what you're saying.
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And and of course I'm biased, but I I the reason why I like what you're saying is it just kind of like opens up the world of experiencing.
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And I want to just add a little bit of a footnote for folks.
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So most people are aware, but there is an endocannabinoid system natural to our body.
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It's a part of the nervous system, if I believe, and it's this set of different, you know, receptors and things.
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And the role of it is to really achieve like homeostasis, right?
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To be able to help us to find our balance, you know, hormonally and through the different states of our body.
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And then it just so happens that THC and and cannabis has their own different types of cannabinoids.
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So, in a funny way, our human evolution has naturally allowed us to have these psychoactive effects or this this relationship with this plant, many different types of cannabis plants that can actually create these effects.
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Now, to transfer over to DMT, there's also some theories that there is actually endogenous DMT that lives you know within our system and things.
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So that's also a funny, interesting connection.
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Like, has our human evolution allowed us to have some interaction?
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And I always share with people too like there's some reason why we are able to have these psychedelic experiences because if it wasn't useful to either our survival or progression of our species, likely evolution would have like ruled it out, you know?
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It's almost like we're co-evolved with these plants, right?
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Like who's really in control here?
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I tell people all the time, like, I don't think any of us are calling the calling the shots here.
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I think it's these plants and fungi, and they're they're they're kind of directing us what's going on here.
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Yeah, there's something, there's a relationship there that goes back to you know tens of thousands of years at least.
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Maybe even before pre-human, if you go back to, you know, the McKinnah theories and things, right?
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Yeah, that's stoned around.
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We co-evolved with these medicines, and they're here to help us.
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That's why we call them allies, right?
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Like uh, like we want to honor, we don't like they all are molecule, but they're more than that.
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They're spirit, they're symbol, they're key to accessing an aspect of ourselves that's incredibly intelligent and wise.
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So let's use these, please, right?
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Like we need all the help we can get.
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Yeah, I hold that lens too about the the more of a like an animist approach.
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Maybe even somewhat of like a like a Taoist approach towards these things that most people regard as just like a medication or a tool or a catalyst.
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And though, yes, there can be some medicinal properties, there can be some catalyzing properties, there can be some useful things that could be defined as tools and things.
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I'm also like, that seems a little one-dimensional to me.
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So uh tell me, tell me your your thoughts here.
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Like, like I'm I'm just to open up this conversation a little more.
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Like, what what do you think is the role or the or the the the context of the human and plant and fungi medicine relationship?
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Well, I think that's like you said, it's about returning to balance, maybe, you know, or to help these are interventions, these are healing tools and interventions when we really need them, right?
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So when we're when there's times of need, they're there for us.
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They're also celebratory tools.
00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:59.599
They're here to help us celebrate and play in sacred space, right, with music and art, right?
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.319
Their therapeutic tools.
00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:07.119
We use the term medicine, but not in a medical sense.
00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:10.160
Like I've had to unpack that a little bit and where I first heard this.
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:14.240
You know, I when I was younger, I was connected to a lot of indigenous communities, right?
00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:16.960
And so, you know, every animal has a particular medicine.
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:22.160
It's something that benefits us as a human and it's sacred, right?
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:28.640
So when you say something as good medicine or as a medicine, it it's of benefit and of and of of an ally.
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:33.680
So we use that term, but the closest thing, you know, that's non-medical would be sacrament.
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:38.160
We you know, we are we're very intentional and we we use these terms intentionally.
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:47.119
It's a sacrament so that we can access a deeper space than we could otherwise that has profound meaning.
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:56.960
You know, and we're stepping into these I mean, any of the medicines can do this, but DMT is known for this like almost stereotypically, but it feels so real, right?
00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:04.559
It's hard to it's hard to dismiss the idea that something more is happening than just in our heads.
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:13.279
And you know, you've probably experienced synchronicities around this work and magical moments that are like, I don't want to try to explain that away.
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:14.880
That was incredible, right?
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:19.119
So it it you know it helps us reveal the mystery of of life.
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:23.920
I don't know, I I work with these medicines professionally and I've never considered it a job.
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:35.200
It's more of a calling, you know, and a lot of gratitude, like you said, it's a real privilege to have this in my life and be able to talk about it, right, without too much fear of jail.
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:40.880
Like I think it's always on our minds, but like it's pretty open here, and I really am grateful for that.
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:53.440
Yeah, and and you know, with something that you said earlier, I do think that the language that we use around these experiences and these approaches, matter.
00:23:53.920 --> 00:24:18.960
And I was having a discourse with somebody about, you know, like spiritual superiority and spiritual narcissism that can kind of intersect psychedelic work where people who may have certain experiences, whether psychedelic experiences or spiritual awakenings or spiritual practice, kind of also it also kind of comes with some words and some terminology and some things.
00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:37.759
And so, like, for example, ayahuasca told me, or the medicine told me, or you know, this, you know, told me, or if you just say that it's a sacrament or that it's a ritual, it it somehow makes it different than if you are just, you know, using it recreationally.
00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:49.440
And so the the thing that came up was this conversation about regarding these plants and fungi as whether they are substances or whether they are medicines.
00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:56.640
And I think one of the arguments was that like calling them medicines is almost like a little bit of like propaganda, if you will.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:58.079
And I I thought about that a little bit.
00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:08.480
I was like, this is this is kind of interesting because is it or or or isn't it like trying to sway the way that people think about this?
00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:21.119
Now, on one side, it's very valid because of the war on drugs, because of the demonization of a lot of these plants, fungi, substances, you know, medicines.
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:23.839
But I really appreciate what you said.
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:29.039
I'm very lucky that my therapist, my psychotherapist, has some indigenous roots.
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:33.119
So he's talking about, you know, medicine in like a different way.
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:34.720
So yeah, thanks for adding that in.
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:40.720
And I am and and I'm having a realization right now that that just is happening to me live time.
00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:44.559
You are the reason why I tried DMT for the first time.
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:48.000
And I and I I didn't realize this until right this moment.
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:52.480
Because yeah, because we we we had that conversation.
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:55.599
Uh, you know, I'm like listening in about this like DMT thing.
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:57.359
I'm like, oh, like what's that about?
00:25:57.440 --> 00:25:58.880
Like, what's go going on there?
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:00.720
And and you know whatnot.
00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:14.640
And then I realized that it was actually a short time after that that I was able to get my hands on somebody had gifted me some DMT, and you know, I'd I'd had it for a very long time, but I think there was, I was like, ooh, not yet, not right now.
00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:18.400
I didn't have the right people, and I didn't, you know, so on and so forth.
00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:33.039
And then I finally got my hands on like a cartridge, and then had some of my first DMT experiences myself and with my friends and things like that, which then like led into more exploration of ayahuasca and things.
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:38.400
And so I didn't realize that until right this moment that you were actually a pretty crucial part.
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:39.519
Better or worse.
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:41.119
Yeah, I hope it went well.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:44.000
Well, you know, it's a big medicine, it's no joke.
00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:45.839
Yeah, you know, yeah, for sure.
00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:54.480
I mean, there's a lot of stuff that can come out, a lot of power work, spiritual work, the the darkness and the light.
00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:55.519
There's a lot of stuff that comes out.
00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:02.319
What I think was happening was that there was this okayness.
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:13.920
I think that there is this okayness that these can be regarded in different ways as just like a drug or just like a thing, you know, which is in line with the conversation that I'm having now.
00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:16.720
So I I owe you a big thanks, Daniel.
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:17.759
I owe you a big thanks.
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:19.519
Thank you.
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:21.599
Thanks for being brave and doing it.
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:23.200
It's a special medicine.
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:36.079
It's you know, I've devoted my life to studying, exploring it, and I uh I learn something new every time I sit with someone, and uh it's so big and so dynamic and different every time.
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:37.440
It's very special.
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:43.359
I like what you said though, like you know, we don't want to we want to honor the medical model to keep us safe.
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:50.720
There is science, it is a molecule that has physiological effects on the body, but we don't want to over-medicalize it.
00:27:50.799 --> 00:28:02.480
And and that's why, you know, that you know, I really do use the term as a medicine from this indigenous teaching sense, but then I realized it was being misunderstood as medicalized.
00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:08.079
And so, and even in the legal medicine, not medication, maybe not medicine, not medication.
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:09.200
That's a great way to say it.
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:14.640
So I've started to use the word sacrament, but for me, medicine and sacrament are synonyms.
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:15.759
But that's not the case.
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:20.799
You know, everything's so context specific that we have to really pay attention to context.
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:25.920
Like if ayahuasca told me something or you know, told my client something, I'd be like, that's great.
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:27.200
Now let's unpack it.
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:30.079
Let's let's look at it, let's assess it.
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:33.279
Let's not just follow ayahuasca's lead here.
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:35.759
Let's have a let's keep our brain intact, right?
00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:36.799
And and explore that.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:38.960
And that's that's just what we call integration.
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:43.680
So I I do I say things like that too, but I also practice discernment, right?
00:28:43.759 --> 00:28:47.039
Because I've gotten some crazy ideas on these medicines.
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:49.759
I don't know if you have either, but like Oh, for sure.
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:52.079
And it feels like it feels like I I got it.
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:53.680
Like I solved it, this is the thing.
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:54.240
This is the same thing.
00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:56.079
No, it's so obvious.
00:28:57.200 --> 00:28:58.000
Then you get to the city.
00:28:58.079 --> 00:29:00.960
Then you come back down to earth, you come back to earth a little bit.
00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:19.119
And and yeah, I think that's important because whether it is a pill, whether it is a pharmaceutical substance, whether it is a religion or a world belief or psychedelic experience, there's something about keeping your agency intact.
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:36.160
And I think that in a society where we are very starved for direction and answers and clarity and starved for just knowing because there's just so so many weird things happening in our society nowadays.
00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:41.359
It can be easy to lend actually so much of your agency and your power to these things.
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:51.359
And I told a group the other day, I was like, I don't think that there's actually any external thing that is going to come and replace like the internal work.
00:29:51.839 --> 00:30:03.440
And and I I want to shift over to talking about the the center of medicinal mindfulness and talking about DMTX a little bit, but I'm now just curious, how did you get into all of this?
00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:14.240
Like you had said something before we recorded where you were like, it's really cool that you and your wife Allison took like very different routes, but are now like here working together, doing the same stuff.
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:20.000
So are you open to just sharing a little bit of your origin story and uh how you got into all of this?
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:24.559
Yeah, my so I went, I got the same degree my wife did at Neuropa.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:28.240
She has an art therapy specialty, but I chose not to get license.
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:35.359
I was on my way to getting license as a counselor, but that's when cannabis came in my in my world, and I wasn't sure how to do how to do both yet.
00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:36.640
But we figured it out.
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:42.799
You know, now we have a whole network of international psychotherapists and guides doing work with cannabis and things.
00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:49.119
But, you know, I'm I'm always I'm I didn't want to be attached to a particular title of psychotherapist.
00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:51.440
And I think that's that's served me well.
00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:56.000
But that doesn't mean I don't believe you need to have real training for these jobs, right?
00:30:56.079 --> 00:31:02.559
Like I think we all need some real training and commitment to ethics and and peer support and all of these things.
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:08.400
So even though I didn't go that route, my standards are still very high in my practice.
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:11.599
Um because I I know how powerful these are.
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:16.720
And I've been in situations when I was younger with people who were not safe on psychedelics.
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:36.000
And and, you know, being the target of that, I think I realized the impact it had on me, and I wanted to be a good steward for others and a good bigger brother, you know, like a not not like a parental figure or something like that, but just a good friend and older brother to people who are interested in this work.
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:40.240
And and you know, the reason I I went into it, I I think it's a combination.
00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:47.519
I was always curious about the mystical and the spiritual side of things, the nature of reality.
00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:51.039
These are common themes and people interested in psychedelics.
00:31:51.359 --> 00:32:02.079
And then I also had a good healthy dose of my own trauma and needed real intervention and received real support from friends and allies and then also from the medicine itself.
00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:05.440
Or the the experiences I had on the medicine were healing.
00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:08.319
And I wanted and then none of them were very safe.
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:13.680
Like I I've certainly been in situations when I was younger that could have had more containment.
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:18.480
And so I and so I wanted to be a guide because I wanted to be continue exploring.
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:24.960
I have an innate healer thing, you know, like it's just my nature to be there for others in those ways.
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:28.640
And so that gave me a practical way to be a healer.
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:32.400
But I I was just super curious and I wanted to help others.
00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:41.839
And so that, you know, I I thought the best that I could do would be a safe underground guide, you know, similar to a lot of the past that you and I of people that you and I know.
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:48.240
But then things opened up in Colorado with cannabis and then ketamine and then mushrooms and TMT.
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:50.799
It's like it's just kind of unfolded right here.
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:53.680
So how could I not say yes to that, right?
00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:57.599
Because just like too many synchronicities to ignore.
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:09.759
Did you always want to become I mean you went to Naropa for, you know, transpersonal psychology degree, and and I'm curious to see even take it a little further behind like what drove that?
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:10.960
Yeah, go back.
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:12.480
Yeah, here's the funny story.
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:14.960
So I went to Naropa, you know, it's a study.
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:22.640
I wanted to be a psychedelic guide, and I was part of spiritual communities, and I saw I realized that spiritual, the spiritual orientation wasn't enough.
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:27.440
There were people who were doing a lot of spiritual bypassing or it wasn't safe psychologically for certain people.
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:28.480
Tell people about that.
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:30.559
I talk about spiritual bypassing all the time.
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:32.720
Just let me just get segue in here.
00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:33.279
Can you talk?
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:34.640
Can you tell people about that, please?
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:38.480
Yeah, spiritual bypassing is like trying to pray your pain away, right?
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:45.920
Like you you it's like trying to address something that's psychological through a spiritual lens, and it's just not that effective.
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:55.119
And or so, and what happens is people overuse, they feel better in the journey itself, and so they'll keep going back to the journey to over and they'll start overusing.
00:33:55.200 --> 00:34:11.679
So they're bypassing the real psychotherapeutic work required to initiate real change, or or like saying the vision is the reality, so like I have a vision of health and wellness, and therefore I don't have to do anything here on the physical for my health and wellness.
00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:15.039
I'm already made it, and it's a little delusional, right?
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:17.199
Like it's it can be delusional.
00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:19.119
Real work, this is real work.
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:31.519
Yeah, I hear people saying, like, well, I am already connected to everything and you know, spirit and God, or I am already whole, and so they actually don't actually do any work here.
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:49.360
I I also think with spiritual bypassing, it's it's it's also the the co-opting of the terminology and the philosophies and the systems, many of which are rooted into indigenous wisdom, you know, systems.
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:55.360
And so it's it's uh it's using the language without actually practicing any of it.
00:34:55.440 --> 00:35:04.880
And and and as I'm like kind of drawing this connection in my mind, knowing that a lot of that is rooted in indigenous knowledge systems, it weirdly is like a form of like colonization.
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:06.400
It's like, let me take this thing.
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:10.000
Yeah, yeah, the image is better than the substance or something, right?
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:13.280
And most of the time they're trying to prove it to themselves, like internally.
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:21.679
If I can view myself as more spiritual or more this or more that, then it helps me to reconcile myself and my like worldview.
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:22.639
And so that thank you.
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:26.480
I just wanted to segue really really quickly, you know, uh on that.
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:31.679
But you were talking a little bit about like what influenced you in getting into your your degree in a robot.
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:32.400
Yeah, right.
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:32.719
Yeah.
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:44.960
I I I was in part of a spiritual community and I I saw the spiritual bypassing and I realized and and I saw the harm that psychedelics could cause when used with people who shouldn't be using, you know.
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:49.760
So I wanted to I wanted to learn that side and I wanted to help people in a way that was safe.
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:54.159
Spiritual, yeah, you know, this I'm just like stuck on spiritual bypassing now.
00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:56.000
Like I like what you're saying about that.
00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:56.800
Let's talk about it.
00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:58.159
There's no substance, right?
00:35:58.239 --> 00:35:59.920
There's like uh there's no depth.
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:03.280
And like you said, it's using the words without fully understanding them.
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:07.840
It's hard work, right, to be a awake human being and to face yourself.
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:15.280
Like there's nothing harder, I've found, than to face ourselves and and all our all our struggles and who we really are.
00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:16.960
And it's also the best.
00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:18.239
It's wonderful.
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:24.880
It's so hard, and it's like the b it's like the most it's the biggest gift, I think, that can be offered in this life.
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:26.880
But not everybody wants to do that.
00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:31.039
Even if they say they do, they it's like, you know, you're confronted by something.
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:34.559
Oh, I remember what I what I wanted to point out too with spiritual bypassing.
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:49.119
Like, you can be whole and complete, totally get it, but like it's this this work should benefit our lives and our physical wellness and our emotional wellness and our relationships and our professional identity.
00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:50.800
This medicine should help us.
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:57.760
And what we see with people who say things like that, I'm whole and complete, is that there's real deficiencies in their lives.
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:09.039
They're underemployed or unemployed, they're losing relationships, and there's just this almost uh low-grade suicidality.
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:11.599
I don't want to be here anymore, I want to be there.
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:18.800
And so we really want to pay attention to like, yeah, you can be awake, you can be whole and complete, and how's your life?
00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:19.280
Right?
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:21.360
Like uh I think that really matters.
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:24.159
And and and it's a dis it's an assessment tool.
00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:31.280
And the this one thing is like, how's your life can help you determine like should you be doing more psychedelics or not, right?
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:38.400
And I mean we all have a responsibility to like say it when it's not improving our lives.
00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:53.119
Yeah, the the you know, the the best analogy that comes up for me is when people want to go and colonize Mars and overlook the importance of stewarding the home that we have here.
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:53.920
You know?
00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:58.000
Yeah, that's psychedelic overvisioning, that's spiritual bypassing right there.
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:09.840
And the the scientifically, the possibility that we can have a more habitable planet here is much higher than it is on Mars.
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:11.920
But being on Mars would be terrible.
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:14.320
I speak to this escapism that you're talking about.
00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:16.400
Like, wouldn't it be great if it was there?
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:44.159
Wouldn't it be great if, you know, and I know that you're you're talking about that from like a spiritual bypassing lens, but I see this in in psychedelic care as well, because whether folks are looking at this from a spiritual standpoint or a personal growth standpoint, even if you're just looking at this from a mental health lens or a trauma lens, I think that there is this deep feeling of, well, I just want to be better.
00:38:44.239 --> 00:38:45.760
Like I just want to feel better.
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:54.719
And oftentimes better is equated to the alleviation of suffering or or the alleviation of discomfort.
00:38:54.880 --> 00:39:02.880
And what I've been sharing with, you know, my community lately, and I get mixed responses from this.
00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:07.519
I tell people like the desire to feel better is actually not enough.
00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:10.239
Uh I'm not saying that it's not valid.
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:12.719
I'm not saying that you haven't been through a lot.
00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:16.320
I'm not saying that you haven't suffered and that you don't deserve to feel better.
00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:19.280
But feeling better is almost like superficial.
00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:20.719
Because then what?
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:24.639
Like, like, like what do you do with that feeling better?
00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:27.199
Like, there's actually something after that.
00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:40.079
So that's just coming up for me as you're talking about this the shallowness of this spiritual bypassing, which seemed to drive you towards something deeper in your own studies and and your own service to the world.
00:41:10.610 --> 00:41:13.010
A lot of us come, a lot of our clients come.
00:41:13.170 --> 00:41:15.329
I support just people feeling better.
00:41:15.490 --> 00:41:19.010
I think, you know, there's there's enough suffering in the world.
00:41:19.329 --> 00:41:27.329
But with that being said, most of our clients, and tell me you have clients too, so that's probably a theme for you, is they're looking for more than that.
00:41:27.490 --> 00:41:30.530
Like meaning making, like, what is my calling?
00:41:30.690 --> 00:41:32.050
What is my life goal?
00:41:32.210 --> 00:41:35.969
What do I really want to do with this one wild and precious life?
00:41:36.130 --> 00:41:38.769
Like that's as much that is and that, you know what?
00:41:38.849 --> 00:41:41.490
Like, sometimes those callings cause more suffering, right?
00:41:41.570 --> 00:41:45.329
Like we're totally being a psychedelic guide is not an easy job, right?
00:41:45.650 --> 00:41:47.409
It's it causes struggle.
00:41:48.210 --> 00:41:50.210
But I am deeply fulfilled.
00:41:50.369 --> 00:42:08.449
So so I would say those, you know, psychedelics attract people who are, you know, struggling with something, but uh, you know, like the ones who aren't spiritually bypassing are really ready to look at themselves and and they know they're they're drawn for whatever reason to working with people like us.
00:42:09.170 --> 00:42:29.490
Yeah, you're you're helping me to further my thought here because the clarification that I want to make is that if feeling better is within is is the main target and the main goal, you're actually like overlooking this this larger thing of which feeling better can be a part of.
00:42:29.650 --> 00:42:29.969
Yeah.
00:42:30.210 --> 00:42:42.210
I think it is very important for people to feel better, but oftentimes what I think is ailing people are these questions that you're talking about, which is like, why am I here?
00:42:42.449 --> 00:42:44.849
Why did that stuff happen to me?
00:42:45.250 --> 00:42:46.929
And where am I going?
00:42:47.490 --> 00:42:53.570
And and a lot of questions about themselves and their own like relationship to to themselves.
00:42:53.650 --> 00:43:08.929
And so the same way that you know, a lot of the the our psychedelic colleagues talk about well, it's not just about the symptom relief, it's about the thing that's actually rooting that and driving that forward.
00:43:09.329 --> 00:43:20.769
Then I almost equate this feeling better as more of a downwind symptomatic effect to this larger exploration of who am I?
00:43:20.929 --> 00:43:22.130
Why am I here?
00:43:22.530 --> 00:43:23.329
Why does this matter?
00:43:24.449 --> 00:43:26.210
Whereas this really matters.
00:43:26.369 --> 00:43:32.050
Yeah, you can when you have that, you can you can be much more resilient as a human being, right?
00:43:32.610 --> 00:43:33.730
Yeah, I I agree.
00:43:33.809 --> 00:43:35.730
Like feeling better is a side effect.
00:43:35.969 --> 00:43:45.170
When when done intentionally, with the right skill sets, sometimes with guidance, sometimes solo, feeling better is a natural side effect of this type of exploration.
00:43:45.409 --> 00:43:54.849
Like what what I'd say, people who come for just symptom management, they don't realize what it takes to have that symptom be addressed, right?
00:43:54.929 --> 00:44:03.650
And and and oftentimes it's facing real struggles or facing shadow aspects of self, facing a history of difficult experiences.
00:44:03.889 --> 00:44:04.210
Right?
00:44:04.289 --> 00:44:08.849
It's not like I'm gonna take this opium and just feel better, right?
00:44:09.010 --> 00:44:10.530
Like less pain in my body.
00:44:10.610 --> 00:44:16.289
I it's like turning towards the pain and the struggle is the side effect of that is feeling better.
00:44:17.010 --> 00:44:37.969
What I hear you saying is in the process of these uh these tools and these these approaches, and it's actually in the work of addressing these things of which you get towards this feeling better, of which feeling better in itself is is this uh like label word, like that means different things to different people.
00:44:38.130 --> 00:44:38.449
Yeah.
00:44:38.929 --> 00:45:07.570
So what what do you think are the the qualities and traits that you've seen in people that make the difference between something that feels more temporary or more surface level or more shallow in their pursuit of wellness and their pursuit of healing and their pursuit of this versus folks who you've seen kind of make this more long-lasting or or like per permanent shift there for you?
00:45:08.050 --> 00:45:08.610
Yeah.
00:45:09.409 --> 00:45:27.889
One thing that's just real pragmatic is people with mindfulness practices are able to engage psychedelic journey work in a way that is more resilient and that have ability to let go of control, to handle big emotional states, emotional tolerance.
00:45:28.130 --> 00:45:31.090
So I just think there's like Like in that point's the skill, right?
00:45:31.170 --> 00:45:37.250
It's not just the medicine, it's your relationship to your life experience and ability to engage big states.
00:45:37.490 --> 00:45:39.570
Um, so I think that's one of the big ones.
00:45:39.650 --> 00:45:45.809
I've seen it across the board, but I work with people all the time who are just coming because, man, they've they're really struggling.
00:45:45.969 --> 00:45:57.650
And so an openness, right, and a curiosity are are like a common theme and the ability to face something that they know is going to be difficult.
00:45:57.889 --> 00:45:58.929
We see that all the time.
00:45:59.090 --> 00:46:04.050
We see, we see vulnerable people being brave all the time who've never meditated in their lives.
00:46:04.369 --> 00:46:08.530
But I will tell you, it's easier if you have a meditation practice, right?
00:46:08.610 --> 00:46:13.570
Like that work is easy is easier if you train for it.
00:46:13.809 --> 00:46:17.889
So, and then we hear people all the time, you know, like I think you mentioned this, really struggle.
00:46:18.130 --> 00:46:24.449
Like, they have a psychotherapy, a psychotherapist, they see a therapist, but they're like no longer progressing, right?
00:46:24.610 --> 00:46:28.369
That's a really great time to take psychedelic medicine.
00:46:28.449 --> 00:46:37.650
It's because it'll it'll break through whatever that physiological or deep under unconscious block that that is prohibiting you to move forward.
00:46:37.809 --> 00:46:39.329
And then you go back to psychotherapy.
00:46:39.490 --> 00:46:43.730
And then if you didn't have that psychotherapy, you wouldn't have experienced that breakthrough in the first place.
00:46:43.889 --> 00:46:48.610
Like people all the time say, well, that was better than 20 the 20 years of psychotherapy I've done.
00:46:48.769 --> 00:46:56.130
It's like, yes, and if you hadn't done that psychotherapy, we wouldn't be doing this level and depth of work that you're able to engage in.
00:46:56.210 --> 00:46:56.369
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
00:46:56.449 --> 00:47:01.969
Better versus a replacement for kind of different conversations here is what I hear you saying.
00:47:02.130 --> 00:47:11.090
Like you'll never know if any of that 10 to 20 years of where you're getting to actually prepared you for this moment for this psychedelic experience.
00:47:11.809 --> 00:47:17.490
For most people, I'd say it does, you know, but it you can you could be in a rut and and it not help.
00:47:17.650 --> 00:47:22.849
But like any sort of persistent practice is going to help somebody engage these things.
00:47:23.010 --> 00:47:25.730
These these medicines require structure, right?
00:47:25.889 --> 00:47:27.409
They blow the lid off of everything.
00:47:27.490 --> 00:47:33.730
So you need a strong structure to keep it together to a degree to retain the experience.
00:47:34.050 --> 00:47:34.690
I don't know.
00:47:34.769 --> 00:47:49.170
Like everybody I've I've done enough journey work to see the patterns of how these medicines affect people, but everybody is so unique and so different that I just I just show up with the beginner's mind and a lot of curiosity.
00:47:49.409 --> 00:47:52.449
And that seems to be what matters the most.
00:47:52.929 --> 00:48:19.650
Yeah, and you add upon this lens of okay, there could be people who earnestly give psychotherapy a try, but maybe they are in an under-resource town or state or you know, region of our country, or they earnestly try, and you can catch three or four bad therapists that are out there who don't have the right ethical practices or the right, you know, approaches.
00:48:19.809 --> 00:48:34.690
And so it's easy for people to say, oh, I tried therapy, and then it's it's not for me, or I tried this medication and it's not for me, or I had one psychedelic experience and it's really challenging.
00:48:34.849 --> 00:48:40.769
So I must have an adverse reaction, or the best is you know, like an al allergy.
00:48:40.849 --> 00:48:44.369
Maybe I'm like allergic, you know, to this, so it's not you know for me.
00:48:44.449 --> 00:48:47.090
And so it's it's complex.
00:48:47.170 --> 00:49:07.090
And and though I obviously I believe in the power of these medicines, and also we are humans and we're gonna get stuff right and we're gonna get stuff wrong, and it also sits in that part of it, you know, as well as it's not a you gotta keep trying different iterations of it.
00:49:07.329 --> 00:49:10.610
You know, there you know, psychotherapy is such a broad term, right?
00:49:10.690 --> 00:49:13.250
Like uh there's the behavioralists and all of that, right?
00:49:13.329 --> 00:49:21.809
And then there's like people like me who are like transpersonal uni and depth psychotherapist with an interest in art and spirit and meditation, right?
00:49:21.889 --> 00:49:26.130
Like, you know, if you're gonna if you if not everybody's gonna have access to that, right?
00:49:26.289 --> 00:49:28.690
That type of therapy and where they live.
00:49:28.929 --> 00:49:31.570
Um, so yeah, what do you do in those situations?
00:49:31.730 --> 00:49:37.250
You you have to have resilience and find your own way and keep keep trying, right?
00:49:37.409 --> 00:49:39.490
Uh there is no magic bullet here.
00:49:39.889 --> 00:49:44.849
Yeah, and everybody's gotta find their own flavor as well, is what I hear from you.
00:49:45.090 --> 00:49:56.289
Yeah, talk to me a little bit about the Center for Medicinal Mindfulness, and I know that that's where I know you the best, and you you've obviously have a lot of offshoots from that as well.
00:49:56.449 --> 00:50:22.690
And very early on, I'll I'll give folks context, and then you can take it from here is that you were deeply focused on the the therapeutic and the I think the psychospiritual side of cannabis, and you were working with different, essentially like therapeutic cannabis facilitators on your team, which I always saw that that was like a precursor for wherever psychedelics you know could go.
00:50:22.929 --> 00:50:32.849
You've now expanded into a a licensed center through the natural Natural Medicine Health Act, working in the psilocybin therapy program.
00:50:33.570 --> 00:50:38.210
I also know that you have the facilitator training program.
00:50:38.690 --> 00:50:43.969
Uh Alison, your wife is a clinical, a licensed clinical, you know, facilitator.
00:50:44.289 --> 00:50:53.490
And so what what am I where where do you want to take it from there about what you want to share with this audience about the Center for Medicinal Mindfulness and what you're up to there?
00:50:53.889 --> 00:50:56.369
Yeah, uh, yeah, very, very briefly.
00:50:56.449 --> 00:50:59.889
We have we work with groups and individuals sessions.
00:50:59.969 --> 00:51:02.369
So I'm in my group space and training space right now.
00:51:02.449 --> 00:51:07.969
And then on the other side of the hall, we have four therapy rooms for psycho psychedelic therapy.
00:51:08.130 --> 00:51:13.250
We started with cannabis because that's what was legal, but there was always the interest in working with mushrooms.
00:51:13.329 --> 00:51:17.730
I just never expected it to become legal here like it has, right?
00:51:17.809 --> 00:51:19.730
Like it kind of caught me off guard.
00:51:19.969 --> 00:51:33.090
So we started with cannabis, and and through that I developed, through cannabis, developed a kind of a multimodal uh psychedelic modality called mindfulness-based psychedelic therapy.
00:51:33.329 --> 00:51:40.289
And we use this kind of umbrella term to describe our style regardless of what medicine we use.
00:51:40.449 --> 00:51:44.050
It just shows up differently based on this effects of the medicine.
00:51:44.130 --> 00:51:56.610
So, but now we get to work with cannabis as a psychedelic ketamine, psilocybin mushrooms under regulated access, and DMT under psych spiritual personal use under Colorado law.
00:51:56.769 --> 00:52:11.329
And we're gonna start working with mescaline at some point and 5MEO DMT under our church to so we're so one of the themes that we get to do here is we get to work with multiple medicines with one person over a week-long period.
00:52:11.490 --> 00:52:20.929
So, like, say we start with cannabis, then do a mushroom journey, and then complete the the week with another cannabis journey or ketamine, mushroom, ketamine.
00:52:21.570 --> 00:52:29.969
This ability to work with the medicines, bring in their strengths and not overly rely on just one medicine has been really special.
00:52:30.210 --> 00:52:34.530
And so some people don't qualify for mushrooms, but they can work with cannabis and ketamine.
00:52:35.010 --> 00:52:38.769
Some people don't qualify for DMT, but they could work with ketamine, right?
00:52:39.010 --> 00:52:40.769
So it's a real robust space.
00:52:40.849 --> 00:52:41.570
I I love it.
00:52:41.730 --> 00:52:42.210
I love it.
00:52:42.449 --> 00:52:45.409
Our edges right now, we're going back to community work.
00:52:45.730 --> 00:52:51.650
We're starting to do more like conscious cannabis circles, like we started with, going back to our roots.
00:52:51.809 --> 00:52:57.409
And we're also going to be doing small groups with cannabis, ketamine, mushrooms, and DMT.
00:52:57.730 --> 00:52:59.969
We're trying to keep the price down, right?
00:53:00.130 --> 00:53:02.369
Like, you know, like it's it's not easy.
00:53:02.530 --> 00:53:08.690
The regulatory side is hard to keep the price down because of the extra costs involved.
00:53:08.849 --> 00:53:13.170
But we think through small groups, we'll we'll be able to make it as accessible as we can.
00:53:13.250 --> 00:53:14.849
And that really matters to me.
00:53:14.929 --> 00:53:18.690
So that's my new edge is we're bringing in small groups here.
00:53:18.849 --> 00:53:22.289
Um but we work with these medicines legally.
00:53:22.449 --> 00:53:34.050
So cannabis, ketamine, legal under federal law, cannabis under state law, and then mushrooms regulated access, but you can also grow and eat your own mushrooms in Colorado now.
00:53:34.130 --> 00:53:34.610
That's legal.
00:53:34.929 --> 00:53:35.809
And the personal use.
00:53:36.289 --> 00:53:37.250
Under the personal use.
00:53:37.730 --> 00:53:37.889
Yeah.
00:53:39.090 --> 00:53:43.809
And that they did that in honoring of the indigenous communities, which I I respect.
00:53:43.969 --> 00:53:46.530
Uh DMT is now legal in Colorado.
00:53:46.610 --> 00:53:50.369
And then non-peyote mescaline is legal in Colorado.
00:53:50.769 --> 00:53:57.329
Yeah, these all have to come through non-synthetic forms, you know, as all natural medicine, non-synthetics.
00:53:57.650 --> 00:53:58.610
All natural medicines.
00:53:58.690 --> 00:54:16.530
And there are, you know, pathways under the regulated access side, the state-regulated psilocybin therapy program where psilocybin is the first substance, but then they're actually getting ready to pilot an ibigain program, and there may be some adoptions of these other ones as well.
00:54:16.769 --> 00:54:30.530
Me, me being a polysubstance guy, knowing, I mean, at the same time in some situations, but just understanding that there are different relations to be had with these different substances.
00:54:30.769 --> 00:54:34.210
I'm very appreciative of, you know, your lens there.
00:54:34.449 --> 00:54:44.690
And it's it's it's interesting because we get questions all the time about like, which is the best for this and which is the best for that, and which, you know, so on and so forth.
00:54:45.010 --> 00:55:00.369
And I hear you saying this more from almost like an intake and screening lens of, well, the what you have access to isn't always about the highest possible benefit or or like results on the sheet.
00:55:00.530 --> 00:55:12.449
Like it also seems to me like there's some criteria that you guys use about the timing of this, or or is it more about a physiological predisposition?
00:55:12.610 --> 00:55:17.969
Like to me, like what what determines for you whether somebody can qualify for something or not?
00:55:18.369 --> 00:55:18.530
Right.
00:55:18.610 --> 00:55:18.849
Yeah.
00:55:18.929 --> 00:55:26.530
Well, I mean, with mushrooms, there are some very specific contraindications, like, are you on an antipsychotic medication, right?
00:55:26.690 --> 00:55:29.969
So there's just certain things that we can't offer mushrooms for.
00:55:30.210 --> 00:55:37.650
You know, so like if somebody's really dysregulated and and and really struggling and needs relief, that means their nervous system's jacked up.
00:55:37.730 --> 00:55:41.250
It's either turned on too high or stuck too low, right?
00:55:41.490 --> 00:55:48.130
Ketamine is really a good medicine to help people get to know psychedelic experiences.
00:55:48.369 --> 00:55:51.170
It feels positive for most people, right?
00:55:51.250 --> 00:55:54.449
Like it is a anti- it is a pain medication, right?
00:55:54.530 --> 00:55:56.130
So people feel good in it.
00:55:56.369 --> 00:55:58.449
And it helps reset the nervous system.
00:55:58.530 --> 00:56:01.010
It just creates more spaciousness inside.
00:56:01.170 --> 00:56:03.409
And it can be a really interesting trip, right?
00:56:03.490 --> 00:56:11.170
So if somebody's really dysregulated, yeah, if somebody's really dysregulated, maybe we we don't start with mushrooms because it's so hard, right?
00:56:11.250 --> 00:56:14.849
We help them feel more comfortable in their bodies with ketamine.
00:56:15.329 --> 00:56:17.730
Cannabis, like I said, is somatic, right?
00:56:17.889 --> 00:56:22.210
So a lot of trauma resolution, very similar to MDMA in that way, right?
00:56:22.289 --> 00:56:29.010
A little less intense than mushrooms, provides an emotional support, but gets it, gets the trauma out of the body.
00:56:29.250 --> 00:56:31.570
And then there's just an issue of preference, right?
00:56:31.650 --> 00:56:37.650
Like, so people can say, I can say, you know, cannabis would be a great idea for you, but they're like, no, I really want to do mushrooms.
00:56:37.809 --> 00:56:42.610
And as long as there's no real like reasons not to, we'll be like, sure, no problem.
00:56:42.849 --> 00:56:50.530
If there's a lot of trauma in that situation, what we would require is two mushroom sessions so they don't have to get through it all in one.
00:56:51.010 --> 00:56:53.570
Or force them to like figure it all out in one session.
00:56:53.969 --> 00:56:57.250
Yeah, that just creates a setup for people to be anxious.
00:56:57.809 --> 00:57:03.650
And so we'll sometimes require two when we're like, no, you're not you're not gonna get through all of that in one session.
00:57:03.809 --> 00:57:09.170
I don't wanna I don't wanna open this up without getting you finding resolution, right?
00:57:10.130 --> 00:57:15.650
And maybe we'll start with a lower dose and then do a higher dose if they want, you know, things like that.
00:57:15.969 --> 00:57:17.329
Well, just the last piece.
00:57:17.490 --> 00:57:21.090
DMT is great, but it's like ripping a band-aid off, right?
00:57:21.170 --> 00:57:23.570
Like, or like resetting a broken bone.
00:57:23.650 --> 00:57:26.929
It's not for everybody when when you're looking for real healing.
00:57:27.090 --> 00:57:35.170
So that's more for like spiritual exploration, personal calling, curiosity about the entities and realms on the other side.
00:57:35.409 --> 00:57:42.210
We don't often start with DMT just because it can be so intense for people, you know, who aren't used for it, used to it.
00:57:42.530 --> 00:57:51.170
Yeah, talk to me about this this DMTX part of your the many organizations that that you're a part of now.
00:57:51.329 --> 00:58:07.889
There are you offer this through the personal use side, which allows for the sharing of these natural medicines in conjunction with harm reduction and bona fide support services.
00:58:08.369 --> 00:58:21.650
And one thing that I found interesting that you were sharing with me is that you all have found a methodology which actually can like prolong the the DMT experience.
00:58:21.730 --> 00:58:23.490
And you you talk a little bit about that.
00:58:23.889 --> 00:58:27.650
Yeah, when we smoke DMT, it's so shocking, right?
00:58:27.730 --> 00:58:38.929
It comes on so fast, it's like a rocket ship propels you through a wormhole and you're in another reality within a matter of like 15 seconds.
00:58:39.170 --> 00:58:40.449
It's shocking, right?
00:58:40.610 --> 00:58:47.250
And then as soon as you start to regulate and orient to this inner space, you come back down.
00:58:47.409 --> 00:58:55.409
It's like the biggest complaint of DMT is it's too strong and too fast, comes on too fast, and then it's gone, right?
00:58:55.490 --> 00:59:01.170
Like, so as soon as you start to orient to something really fascinating, you're being pulled out of it.
00:59:01.409 --> 00:59:20.690
So Andrew Gallimore and Rick Strassman, and Andrew came up with the idea and used Rick's DMT data to come up with this idea of a targeted infusion, which is basically not a smoke, it's uh using an infusion pump, which basically pushes the DMT into your bloodstream over a period of time.
00:59:20.849 --> 00:59:24.929
And you can change the flow rate so you can adjust it in real time.
00:59:25.090 --> 00:59:26.690
I just did this this last week.
00:59:26.849 --> 00:59:31.969
And so instead of a rocket ship where you go straight up and straight back down, like those blue origin rockets, right?
00:59:32.050 --> 00:59:34.369
They go up and down, right?
00:59:34.530 --> 00:59:35.650
You get to stay up.
00:59:35.809 --> 00:59:38.610
You get to stay where you want to be for as long as you want.
00:59:38.769 --> 00:59:59.969
And so the peak can go from like, and again, we're not talking like extreme doses because we can titrate it and people can't tolerate extreme doses for long anyway, but you can put somebody in a full DNT state, hyper-visual, more real than real, otherworldly experience, and you can keep them in it for hours with this technology.
01:00:00.130 --> 01:00:07.170
And so, like last week we did two, and one was two hours long and one was over three hours long.
01:00:07.409 --> 01:00:09.809
And it, you know, and we can titrate it.
01:00:09.889 --> 01:00:16.449
So like if it's overwhelming at this level, we just turn the flow rate down a little bit, and it's super comfortable.
01:00:16.610 --> 01:00:21.650
And then you're fully immersed, but your nervous system isn't hyperactive.
01:00:21.889 --> 01:00:26.769
And so what we're finding is like these are life-transforming experiences for people.
01:00:26.849 --> 01:00:34.929
It's like the ability to go into a phenomenon, study it without the big waves of emotions and things.
01:00:35.090 --> 01:00:38.130
It's just it just changes the whole dynamic.
01:00:38.369 --> 01:00:44.210
The other thing, the other thing, Jimmy, that people like are blown away by is that we can turn it off.
01:00:44.690 --> 01:00:46.929
Somebody needs to take a bathroom break, right?
01:00:47.090 --> 01:00:52.130
Like imagine being able to turn off your mushroom journey at the peak.
01:00:52.289 --> 01:01:00.849
So you can go pee, re reset, and come back, and then we just plug you back in and turn it on again, and you're back at the peak.
01:01:01.809 --> 01:01:02.929
Oh my goodness.
01:01:03.090 --> 01:01:21.170
Yeah, because I've I've, you know, in my own experimenting with inhalable DMT formats, there are times where I keep going back to it and taking like larger you know, hits and inhaling more and more and more, but the effects like fade.
01:01:21.409 --> 01:01:28.449
There's kind of this like threshold that that you kind of like can't get past if if the if the timing has gone too long.
01:01:28.530 --> 01:01:32.050
And I've always been curious on why that is.
01:01:32.210 --> 01:01:42.130
And so it seems like this this pump system, this intravenous system has allowed for you to f have a different methodology around this.
01:01:42.449 --> 01:01:53.650
Yeah, it I I've had that experience too with smoking, or you don't go to the same place, you try to continue your experience, and then it's like you just change the channel and you're in a completely different realm.
01:01:54.050 --> 01:01:59.170
This DMTX, because you don't go in and out of it, you just stay where you are.
01:01:59.409 --> 01:02:03.010
And it's stay-another word for it, is stable state DMT.
01:02:03.090 --> 01:02:13.730
It stabilizes the inner experience so you don't have to vape again or you know, fumble with your pipe again, or figure out what reality you're in and go back into it.
01:02:13.969 --> 01:02:15.409
All of that is stabilized.
01:02:15.490 --> 01:02:25.969
There's no it's this is the best like it really is subjectively an incredible way to take this medicine and it addresses all of the struggles with smoking DMT.
01:02:26.130 --> 01:02:29.730
And it changes because of the metabolism and the lack of tolerance.
01:02:29.889 --> 01:02:39.969
Like it literally, if there's a crisis or it needs to shut off for whatever reason, you just hit a button, and within a minute, a person is landing from the experience.
01:02:40.130 --> 01:02:45.889
It's the one of the most bizarre experiences I've ever had as a psychedelic practitioner.
01:02:46.210 --> 01:02:49.889
Well, it's like intermission between the periods of the game or something like that.
01:02:51.409 --> 01:02:55.809
Get off the rink or get off the field for a second, and let me just kind of reset myself.
01:02:56.050 --> 01:02:57.170
Let me just what was that?
01:02:57.250 --> 01:02:58.289
Let me breathe into that.
01:02:58.369 --> 01:03:02.369
We process it a little bit, check in, let me go to the bathroom, let me have a sip of water.
01:03:02.530 --> 01:03:05.329
Okay, plug me back in and I'm ready to go again.
01:03:05.730 --> 01:03:06.050
All right.
01:03:06.210 --> 01:03:11.490
Well, I don't I don't know when, but I'm gonna I'm gonna be there and I will engage in your services.
01:03:11.809 --> 01:03:15.329
Obviously, I I trust you, have a very deep trust, you know, for you.
01:03:15.409 --> 01:03:19.170
And well, let me let me tell you real quick, dmtx.org.
01:03:19.329 --> 01:03:25.170
And you know, this is a it requires four guides to do it, so it's not inexpensive.
01:03:25.490 --> 01:03:40.050
But with that being said, we created a church and a community around this, and we are offering sessions for free to our community members because and and they you know they gotta be the right people, and there's like a you know, there's you know, it is competitive, right?
01:03:40.130 --> 01:03:47.170
Because we want good people to do it, but I have created a pathway to offer it for free, and I'm really honored to be able to do that.
01:03:47.809 --> 01:03:51.490
So come to Colorado anytime, I'll show you the gear and uh introduce you too.
01:03:51.969 --> 01:03:52.530
I'm gonna be there.
01:03:52.610 --> 01:04:00.050
I don't know exactly when, but uh this is something in my in my soul is like so curious about this.
01:04:00.210 --> 01:04:13.889
And so um I also just want to add a little footnote here that you had mentioned Andrew Gallimore and Rick Strassman, who, for those who don't know, you should follow their work and and and research.
01:04:14.050 --> 01:04:27.090
Andrew Gallimore is a historical scholar of DMT, he's um a British neurobiologist, chemist, pharma, pharmacologist, and has been studying DMT for quite some time.
01:04:27.329 --> 01:04:45.329
Rick Strassman being more well known for his University of New Mexico School of Medicine studies, where they were uh working with folks with uh terminal illnesses and you know end-of-life, you know, type situations.
01:04:45.969 --> 01:05:02.289
And they actually co-authored a book uh 25 years ago called DMT the Spirit Molecule, which really served as, I believe, one of the first uh mainstream explorations of DMT.
01:05:02.449 --> 01:05:18.690
And so this is like DMT lore at this point, and and a big reason on why these approaches and this molecule and this medicine is just so well regarded in in our society, you know, nowadays.
01:05:18.769 --> 01:05:25.650
So I just wanted to add some some respect to our to the people you know doing that that deep work.
01:05:25.730 --> 01:05:28.929
And so I just want to give a shout out to Rick.
01:05:29.090 --> 01:05:35.250
He his study broke the barricade to the psychedelic research since it had been shut down.
01:05:35.490 --> 01:05:39.889
So it was the beginning of the whole movement and the psychedelic renaissance that we're in.
01:05:39.969 --> 01:05:43.250
So just want to really acknowledge that he doesn't get enough credit for that.
01:05:43.329 --> 01:05:44.449
So I agree.
01:05:44.610 --> 01:05:45.010
Yeah.
01:05:45.409 --> 01:05:47.889
Most humble people don't, you know what I mean?
01:05:48.050 --> 01:06:01.250
And so that's a part of why I wanted to bring you on the show because I know that with as as much of an impact that I know that you're making to your community and to the world, like you're kind of a low key guy, you know what I mean, which I I really appreciate.
01:06:01.409 --> 01:06:17.490
And yeah, it's just been an honor having you here and having you on the episode and some of my own like realizations about my own, you know, personal stuff, and and just you know, this feels pioneering what you're describing about DMTX.
01:06:17.650 --> 01:06:39.650
And and I'll also just say for folks that one of the reasons that Daniel and I are in such kinship is because we we each have a really, really strong emphasis on the ethical compass of good facilitation and good guideship.
01:06:39.889 --> 01:06:42.769
And so I know that that's one of the cornerstones of your work.
01:06:42.929 --> 01:06:49.490
You kind of mentioned it a little bit when you were talking about the Center for Medicinal Mindfulness and things like that.
01:06:49.730 --> 01:06:52.929
And it is, those are the prerequisites.
01:06:53.010 --> 01:07:03.730
Like that's the foundation upon which we can explore novel and you know, interesting applications of what you're doing at DMTX.
01:07:03.809 --> 01:07:07.490
So I just want to like contextualize that for people.
01:07:07.650 --> 01:07:11.969
That part of the reason I got so excited about some of these things.
01:07:12.050 --> 01:07:13.969
So I just kind of went down some tangents with you.
01:07:14.050 --> 01:07:22.369
But I think that part of the reason in my you know, soul that we didn't address that so much is it's it should be a given.
01:07:22.530 --> 01:07:26.130
Like it's it it it's it's a requirement, like it's a foundation of this work.
01:07:26.289 --> 01:07:43.409
Yes, it requires emphasis and people know in my My body of work, and you know, as they discover and learn about yours too, that we we do emphasize it and talk about it so much, but it is it's it's a really important cornerstone of all of these things that that we're talking about.
01:07:43.730 --> 01:07:45.090
Yeah, it permeates it, right?
01:07:45.170 --> 01:07:47.010
And it's like you said, it's the foundation.
01:07:47.170 --> 01:07:52.849
And if we don't have it, then things fall apart or crash down, and that doesn't help anybody.
01:07:53.090 --> 01:08:10.449
You know, Jimmy, a long time ago, I remember checking out, like you were just getting started, and I checked out psychedelic passage, your website, and and I like you went a different route than I did, but it that ethics and accountability and the care permeated it, permeated that website.
01:08:11.570 --> 01:08:13.409
This is this is legit.
01:08:13.570 --> 01:08:22.210
It's a different path than I took, but like I see the threads that I care about too, and and that really matters to me.
01:08:22.289 --> 01:08:31.010
And I just want to I want to I just want to acknowledge you for for that because it's it doesn't show up unless it's authentic.
01:08:31.649 --> 01:08:39.649
And so even though we haven't like always been like working side by side, I've always shown that you've had this parallel path uh uh that I have.
01:08:39.729 --> 01:08:41.569
And I I've I appreciated it.
01:08:41.649 --> 01:08:48.369
I appreciated how you found a path into the work that was above board but protected.
01:08:48.529 --> 01:08:49.329
And yeah.
01:08:49.649 --> 01:08:51.010
So I just want to acknowledge that.
01:08:51.489 --> 01:08:51.889
Thank you.
01:08:51.969 --> 01:09:02.769
It's nice to have some nodes on the grid, no matter how close or far, where you can kind of give a good nod to each other and be like, yeah, let's let's keep this going in our own sectors and our own, you know, regards.
01:09:03.010 --> 01:09:08.529
Especially in an era where, you know, everyone has the same story.
01:09:08.689 --> 01:09:13.729
I was I found my healing through psychedelics, and now this is my calling, and then this is how I serve people.
01:09:13.809 --> 01:09:29.010
Like, yeah, that's valid, but there's so much more to it around how we can approach these things with a little bit more sacredness, with a little bit more care, with a little bit more, you know, of an ethical, you know, lens and consent.
01:09:29.170 --> 01:09:30.130
What a novel idea.
01:09:30.449 --> 01:09:31.729
Yeah, consent for sure.
01:09:31.969 --> 01:09:35.170
Just like agency and power dynamics and there's all types of things.
01:09:35.409 --> 01:09:37.329
All of that it shows, all of it shows up.
01:09:37.489 --> 01:09:39.889
And look, there is this psychedelic healing agenda.
01:09:39.969 --> 01:09:42.529
That's what I've been calling it, where it is an agenda.
01:09:42.609 --> 01:09:42.929
Yeah.
01:09:43.250 --> 01:09:51.729
People are so desperate and they're suffering and they're looking for something beyond the traditional means that we have.
01:09:52.209 --> 01:10:03.649
And therefore, when we purport all of the benefits, all of the possibilities, all of the magic and the wonder, which yes, yes, 100% yes on all of those things.
01:10:03.969 --> 01:10:33.889
But when we very selectively exclude the harms, and you know, you talk about the effects of overuse and you know, assessing guides and bad actors, and you know, all of this, it creates uh effectively like propaganda, like it creates this what I was sharing with you, this psychedelic halo effect, the psychedelic, you know, cheer cheerleaderism around, you know, a lot of this work.
01:10:33.969 --> 01:10:41.089
And so I just always appreciate more even discussion, more metered discussions, you know, around this.
01:10:41.169 --> 01:10:44.529
And and I just feel that kind of like permeating through your work.
01:10:44.609 --> 01:10:48.929
And I'm really grateful that you've came on to our podcast.
01:10:49.089 --> 01:10:55.969
And so can you share where people can find your work, where people can tune in with you?
01:10:56.609 --> 01:10:58.609
Yeah, I'd be happy to.
01:10:58.849 --> 01:11:02.929
You know, people visit us all the time in Boulder, and then we have our training program.
01:11:03.329 --> 01:11:11.889
The the the the short way to answer that is psychedelicshine.com is a website that connects all of my programs.
01:11:12.049 --> 01:11:21.250
So the clinic, the NMHA license center, the training programs we do, DMTX, the church, and all of that is all on that website.
01:11:21.489 --> 01:11:31.649
Medicinal, you can Google medicinal mindfulness or dmtx.org is the fun website with uh with all of the fun images and things.
01:11:31.809 --> 01:11:34.449
So so that's how you can get a hold of me.
01:11:34.529 --> 01:11:37.569
And and we have a small team here, it's very relational.
01:11:37.889 --> 01:11:44.209
Uh you're gonna get a human on the phone or or by email, and we're gonna figure out what you need.
01:11:44.289 --> 01:11:45.329
We got a lot of options.
01:11:45.489 --> 01:11:52.289
So so that's that's my that's my little banner in the in the world, is are those websites.
01:11:52.609 --> 01:11:54.689
Well, that's gonna wrap it up for our time here.
01:11:54.769 --> 01:11:56.929
I know I could talk to you for like four or more hours.
01:11:58.529 --> 01:12:02.289
You know, but we'll have you back on the show 100%.
01:12:02.769 --> 01:12:09.569
And I'm looking forward to the ways that we can find ways to collaborate and just continue this important dialogue and discussion.
01:12:09.809 --> 01:12:23.969
So for everybody listening, watching, tuning in, reading something on our websites, wherever you are in your psychedelic journey, just so honored and grateful that you've chosen to tune in.
01:12:24.129 --> 01:12:39.489
Whatever type of work you're doing in your own personal life, related to psychedelics, related to not, if you're exploring ways to just become a better person and you know, uh finding ways to just explore your own consciousness with psychedelics.
01:12:39.569 --> 01:12:40.449
I'm proud of you.
01:12:40.609 --> 01:12:42.609
I'm sure Daniel is proud of you as well.
01:12:42.769 --> 01:12:43.489
Yeah, keep going.
01:12:43.569 --> 01:12:45.809
Yeah, yeah, just keep keep going.
01:12:45.969 --> 01:12:50.289
And uh, Daniel, it's been a real honor having you on the podcast here.
01:12:50.609 --> 01:12:51.569
Yeah, thanks, Jimmy.
01:12:51.649 --> 01:12:52.929
It's a been a good conversation.
01:12:53.089 --> 01:12:53.809
Appreciate you.
01:12:54.049 --> 01:13:00.209
Yeah, that wraps it up, folks, for this episode of the Psychedelic Passage Podcast.
01:13:00.289 --> 01:13:02.769
You could find us on Apple Podcasts.
01:13:02.849 --> 01:13:05.489
We started doing videos on Apple Podcasts.
01:13:05.809 --> 01:13:08.289
You can find our audio on Spotify.
01:13:08.449 --> 01:13:14.449
We upload whole episodes to YouTube and into our online community as well.
01:13:14.689 --> 01:13:18.369
So thank you for tuning in, and we will see you next time.