Michael Brown - Don’t Run With the Herd

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Welcome back to Proteo Conversations. Today I'm
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joined by Michael Brown, CPA, CA, and co -founder
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of Brightline Financial. Mike's journey is a
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great example of what happens when an accountant
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starts thinking like an entrepreneur. After spending
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nearly a decade in public accounting, he made
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the decision to step away from the traditional
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firm path and build something different. In this
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conversation, we talk about what it really takes
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to start and grow an accounting firm, the transition
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from business owner to leader, why productive
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conflict matters, and why clear communication
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may be one of the most underrated skills in the
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profession. We also get into AI and technology,
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pricing transparency, the future of accounting,
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and why, despite all the tools available to us,
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the human side of the profession may become more
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important than ever. Mike is thoughtful, candid,
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and refreshingly open about the things he's still
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learning as Brightline continues to grow. There
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is a lot in this conversation for accountants,
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firm owners, and anyone trying to become a better
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leader. Mike, welcome to Prodigy Conversations.
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Hey, thanks Zane, glad to be here. So I had a
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couple of things I wanted to ask you to start
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this with, but I can't stop seeing that guitar
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in the back corner. So I have to begin there.
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Like, tell me about the guitar. Yeah, everybody
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asks about the guitar. I think I leave it there
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just to seem a little bit more cool than I am.
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I do kind of play guitar. It's something I've
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been picking away at. I love learning new stuff,
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new skills, new hobbies, new everything. And
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so guitar is just on the list there. I can put
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a couple chords together, but I can't confidently
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play it. But if it makes me seem cooler, I'll
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leave it there. Well, anybody can play the instrument
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is exceptional to me because I have zero musical
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talent. The only thing musical I can do is play
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guitar hero. Outside of that, I'm a total loss.
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Hey, that requires a certain level of talent.
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Maybe not musically, but big guitar hero fan
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as well. I think the cooler thing is just slightly
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off screen. I've got an electric drum kit and
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that's something I'm way better at and been playing
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since I've been... I was 16. So I think that's
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cooler than the guitar, but a little less cool
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on the screen. You started to like the drum set
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or you just like graduated into that after playing
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the originals? Yeah, I had my first drum kit
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when I was 15 or 16 years old. Didn't know about
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ear protection then. And so now I'm a little
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hard of hearing because of that. Uh, and I've
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got the electric drum kit now cause it's, I live
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in an apartment and it's a little easier on the
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ears. And you just decided one day that drums
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would be a cool thing to do and you gave it a
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go. Yeah, why not? It's cool. No, it's for sure.
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Like I said, like anybody can play a musical
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instrument or anything from a triangle all the
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way through to, you know, the most complicated
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string instrument I am super impressed with.
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I lack that, that skill. It does not exist in
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my body. I'm sure if you try it hard enough,
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but maybe you just. Don't have the time. No,
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we did a test when we entered high school because
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it was a school that had a very strong music
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department and they were just like, nope, don't
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have it. Oh, well that's too bad. I'm sure you
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get other stuff though. I hope so. There's got
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to be some skills in this body somewhere along
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the line. Yeah, there has to be. But let's talk
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a little bit more about accounting because that's
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so much more exciting than music. Love it. Tell
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me, how did you get into this world of accounting?
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I had a really boring traditional route to get
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into accounting. So I was in a small town in
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Ontario, just outside of London where I'm from.
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And the total high school was maybe like 400
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kids. We had one accounting course that was offered
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across all the grades. Ended up in that as kind
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of a fluke because the courses I wanted weren't
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offered. Found I was really good at it. And I
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was kind of gravitating towards history as something
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I wanted to pursue. Uh, as a major in university
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advice from my history teacher was super don't
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do that. Not lucrative, you know, like not very
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good for job prospects and all that stuff. So
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the way that I kind of fell into accounting was,
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you know, it's, it's the language of business.
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And if you think about it in the right way, or
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at least the way that I kind of thought about
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it, it is kind of like an exercise in history,
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right? Like the accounting records of a business
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are truly the history of that. business. And
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what I liked about history and where I think
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the practical application is both with that and
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with accounting is like, you can use it to predict
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trends in the future, right? Like people don't
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change, history repeats itself. And when we're
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starting to forecast a set of financials, we
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often start with the historical data. So I think
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that's kind of cool. And that's what kind of
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led me through to that. And then, you know, accounting
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major in university, co -op terms throughout,
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went to an accounting firm after I graduated,
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did my CPA, all of that good stuff. So that's
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kind of how I fell into it. I mean, I can relate.
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I had a similar, very boring background. I never
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wanted to go into history, but I was more of
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a person who didn't know what they wanted to
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do. And probably, you know, I wanted to become
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a teacher. And if you went into history, you
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would have become a teacher. So maybe, you know,
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some parallels. Yeah. But I like the analogy
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that accounting and history are very similar
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in terms of using the past to predict the future.
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Is that something you think about on a regular
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basis as you serve your clients? Something I
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think about a lot, both professionally and personally.
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I mean, I am a big reader. And one of the things
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that I did during COVID was I read a ton. And
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I read this book called Get Well Soon. It was
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a history of like plagues and epidemics over
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the past couple hundred years. And just the parallels
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between like every substantial... like plague
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or epidemiological event in the last hundred
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years. And like seeing it compared to what I
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was going through at the time and like people's
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reactions to stuff, people's reactions to government
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policies, the government policies themselves,
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like they have not changed. Um, and so I felt
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like that was really cool. Obviously not really
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cool in the context, but like kind of interesting
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to compare the two things and see how that hasn't
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changed. And certainly like professionally, um,
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yeah, I often look to like. things that have
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been happening and try to, you know, use that
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to predict what I think might happen, whether
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that's within, you know, a forecasting exercise
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or whether that's, um, you know, we're doing
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a really big like sales and marketing push right
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now. And of course we'd look to historically
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what's worked well. for us and for other people
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like us and use that to predict like what we
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could be doing going forward. So yeah, I would
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say I do, I do think about that a lot. So interesting
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is that we all believe we're this evolved species
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and we're getting more evolved over time. And
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Mike Brown comes in and says, nope, we're all
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just the same. That means that we were a hundred
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years ago. Here to spoil the fun for sure. Yeah.
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I think like, if you're interested in that kind
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of thing, I'd definitely recommend that book.
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I get well soon. I forget who the author is,
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but super. interesting stuff and yeah, it really
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highlights how much we don't change as a species.
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Well, I'm sure jumping a little ahead and some
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of the questions I want because this is going
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to form quite nicely. I mean, the world is changing
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a lot right now, especially from a business standpoint.
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And there is this idea that AI is going to help
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us all be better, take a lot of the work away,
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but is it going to change our behavior? Like,
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do you think it changes the way people react
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to situations? Because you know you would think
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with more access to information things would
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get better But obviously global politics proved
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to us that access to information is probably
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the worst thing that's ever happened to humanity
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So like any thoughts on like if this behavior
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was the same a hundred years ago It was it through
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a pandemic the same and now we're going into
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this new generation Do we see the same human
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behaviors occurring just with you know people
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thinking they're more well educated on their
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decisions. I mean, that's That's a great question.
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I don't know if it's when I'm professionally
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equipped to handle, not an anthropologist or
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whatever, but I mean, I do. We're, we're just
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spitballing. Yeah. You're accountable for you
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for what you say. Yeah. The accounting leadership
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and anthropology podcast. Yeah. I mean, I do
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think like to a certain degree people don't change.
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And you definitely see that if you look at patterns
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over time, but I also think that people do have
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this like really great propensity for change,
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which is kind of counterintuitive, but. You know,
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I, I do feel that with AI coming into the workforce,
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like I am noticing a lot of changes, even when
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I look at the way that I do my work and the way
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that I interact with my team, you know, for a
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lot of people who are implementing more and more
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AI into their firm, whatever that looks like,
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cause everyone's on a different journey there.
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You know, I think like for me, my first reaction
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to stuff is often up open chat GBT and let's
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do something, you know, whereas before it might
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be open up a Word doc and pros and cons or something
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like that. Right. So I think that kind of behavior
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is, is shifting. And certainly I, I do encourage
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that. What I, what I find not so great. is the
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change in behavior of relying on it too much
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and getting it to do everything and forgetting
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about the human stuff that makes the human and
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the equation so important. Especially in a relationship
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-based industry like ours, the human element,
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in my opinion, should never go away and will
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never go away. So I wouldn't want to see a change
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where all of us are automating all of our communications
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and the way that we interact with each other
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and with our clients. So I guess I'm hoping that
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that doesn't change. That's a good point. I mean,
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I think that's going to be the big differentiator
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going forward is those who can still communicate
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and have those human conversations. Yeah. And
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I think it's interesting. I try to draw. I guess
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I'm learning right here in this moment that maybe
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it's because I kind of followed that history
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route, but I always try to look at these changes
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through the lens of something that's happened
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similarly in history. And one that I go back
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to a lot when I think about the way that things
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kind of swing and overcorrect is like processed
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foods in the 40s and 50s and that kind of time
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period where everybody was all for instant mashed
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potatoes and jellied salads and all this like
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really unhinged stuff. And shortly after that,
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we made this huge overcorrection to now where
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there's a ton of people who just do not touch
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any kind of processed food. We're back to like
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farm to table and organic foods and that kind
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of stuff. So we see these big swings happening.
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And I try and tie that to AI like, yeah, it's
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something different that's happening, but it's
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not like it's the only different thing that's
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happened to us in our, you know, in our lifetime
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or in recent history. So yeah, we'll have people
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over automate and then we'll have the overcorrection
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back to like the boutique. white -glove service,
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I think, after our little foray into deep AI
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stuff. Yeah, I like that. I think that's really
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true. I think people will start seeking out those
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options that will give them that interaction
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they're looking for. Probably do want you to
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use the AI, but they also want you to be able
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to have the conversation. Yeah, exactly. What
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we do is so intimate, and I feel like people
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don't think that necessarily about accounting,
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but... At least when you're working with like
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the owner operators and the people who are in
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the guts of a small business, like it's their
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livelihood. It's their passions, their blood,
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sweat and tears. Oftentimes it's their legacy.
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They're going to pass it down to their kids.
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And so I think we need to treat that with a little
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bit of respect and it deserves, you know, human
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interaction. It deserves our time and focus and
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over automating things just to like spend less
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time on those relationships. I think is, you
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know, we're not drawing the right conclusions
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or the right takeaways from all of the, you know,
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the potential of AI and what people are using
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it for. How do people go about building those
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skills to be able to have those conversations?
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I mean, working in customer service did me a
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great favor in that sense. I was a manager at
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McDonald's when I was in high school and the
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first couple years of university. And so now
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like having to, you know, I don't know if they
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have McDonald's monopoly in, they must have that
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in the States where you collect the little monopoly
00:11:42.629 --> 00:11:46.210
pieces as you, yeah, okay. So I had to once have
00:11:46.210 --> 00:11:49.590
a police escort to talk to somebody about monopoly
00:11:49.590 --> 00:11:51.909
at McDonald's. And from that, I can pretty much
00:11:51.909 --> 00:11:55.250
handle any kind of communication situation. But
00:11:55.250 --> 00:11:57.809
I think like working in an environment like that.
00:11:57.870 --> 00:12:00.870
customer service related, uh, does wonders. But
00:12:00.870 --> 00:12:03.970
I also spend a lot of time and intention developing
00:12:03.970 --> 00:12:06.590
those skills. You know, I spend a lot of time
00:12:06.590 --> 00:12:09.250
reading. I spend a lot of time. Um, I've always
00:12:09.250 --> 00:12:11.509
worked with a business coach since I started
00:12:11.509 --> 00:12:14.230
Brightline and a lot of our time is spent on
00:12:14.230 --> 00:12:16.529
that particular stuff. Like, okay, yeah, we're
00:12:16.529 --> 00:12:18.309
going to do this thing. How do we communicate
00:12:18.309 --> 00:12:21.009
that to the team? Uh, how do I work with my clients
00:12:21.009 --> 00:12:24.259
on this? So like any skill. I think it just takes
00:12:24.259 --> 00:12:26.960
time and intention and practice. Yeah. That continuous
00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:30.000
practice is so important. Yeah, absolutely. So
00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:32.340
have more of the conversations and they might
00:12:32.340 --> 00:12:34.600
not go super well when you start. I'm sure you
00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:36.399
probably found that when you first started the
00:12:36.399 --> 00:12:38.539
podcast, like anything, you just start doing
00:12:38.539 --> 00:12:40.820
it and maybe it doesn't go well, but you keep
00:12:40.820 --> 00:12:42.799
at it. And how long have you been doing this
00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:47.529
now, Zane? This is like episode 65. 120 weeks.
00:12:47.809 --> 00:12:49.190
Yeah. And you're probably getting pretty good
00:12:49.190 --> 00:12:51.029
at it. You're feeling a lot more confident about
00:12:51.029 --> 00:12:53.470
it. I certainly watched the last couple of episodes
00:12:53.470 --> 00:12:55.570
that you put out over the last week and it's
00:12:55.570 --> 00:12:58.210
great. So I think it's like something like that
00:12:58.210 --> 00:13:00.350
is a testament to just like being consistent
00:13:00.350 --> 00:13:02.470
and sticking with it. And you can apply that
00:13:02.470 --> 00:13:05.409
to having conversation with the clients, whatever
00:13:05.409 --> 00:13:07.809
those look like, just keep having them. Don't
00:13:07.809 --> 00:13:09.649
replace them with AI. No, I think that is the
00:13:09.649 --> 00:13:12.649
key right there is let's all try remain a little
00:13:12.649 --> 00:13:15.070
human. Yeah, absolutely. It's something that
00:13:15.070 --> 00:13:17.679
I try to. you know bring focus to with my team
00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:19.620
because of course they're out in the world hearing
00:13:19.620 --> 00:13:22.320
everything AI this and AI that and I think it's
00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:25.720
really cool and I'm a huge tech nerd so I play
00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:27.960
with it a lot and we use it a lot in the firm
00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:30.600
but don't forget the human element of it like
00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:33.480
it's easy to have chat gbt write an email for
00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:35.960
you but like I don't know I I still am a big
00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:38.840
fan of just writing my own emails even though
00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:41.519
I could easily automate it just feels I know
00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:43.820
email isn't like the most human form of communication
00:13:43.820 --> 00:13:46.549
but you know still feels right to me. I agree.
00:13:46.750 --> 00:13:48.750
I mean, I will type my first emails up and then
00:13:48.750 --> 00:13:50.850
take it on and say, can you just make sure that
00:13:50.850 --> 00:13:53.629
I'm not being a grumpy Zane that's going to irritate
00:13:53.629 --> 00:13:55.470
somebody on the other side, which they're always
00:13:55.470 --> 00:13:58.149
like, yep, you would have, so let's fix it. Yeah,
00:13:58.149 --> 00:14:00.950
I feel that. I'm the same way. So you've obviously
00:14:00.950 --> 00:14:02.710
mentioned Brightline and I want to get there,
00:14:02.710 --> 00:14:05.509
but there is a lot of your story between going
00:14:05.509 --> 00:14:07.409
from high school, getting advice to go learn
00:14:07.409 --> 00:14:09.789
the language of business. You moved into your
00:14:09.789 --> 00:14:12.990
first firm. How did we go from firm one through
00:14:12.990 --> 00:14:15.330
to the decision of Wanting to stop right line.
00:14:15.490 --> 00:14:18.190
Yeah, so I think like going back to university
00:14:18.190 --> 00:14:21.309
in my program we had to do three co -op work
00:14:21.309 --> 00:14:24.230
terms and I looked at that as a really great
00:14:24.230 --> 00:14:26.429
opportunity to try three different things and
00:14:26.429 --> 00:14:29.789
see what I liked so I did stint in internal audit
00:14:29.789 --> 00:14:33.269
in a large public company I did a stint in like
00:14:33.269 --> 00:14:36.210
just general kind of financial accounting reporting
00:14:36.210 --> 00:14:39.080
in like a a private company, and then I did an
00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:40.679
accounting firm. It was on the smaller side.
00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:43.220
It was like 30 or 35 people. In the background,
00:14:43.259 --> 00:14:45.600
as I was doing those things, because I just can't
00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:47.559
sit still and I have to be doing a hundred things
00:14:47.559 --> 00:14:51.220
at once, I was also dabbling in entrepreneurial
00:14:51.220 --> 00:14:54.059
endeavors with some of my friends and classmates.
00:14:54.340 --> 00:14:57.799
And so I started a web development business called
00:14:57.799 --> 00:14:59.700
Red Anchor Media. That went really well. I've
00:14:59.700 --> 00:15:02.419
now got my our logo tattooed on my arm. Me and
00:15:02.419 --> 00:15:04.399
my friend got matching tattoos for that because
00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:06.139
it was our first business and it went really
00:15:06.139 --> 00:15:09.039
well. So I've always kind of felt the need to
00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.299
explore the kind of entrepreneurial part of me.
00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:14.559
And as I was working, I was at Baker Tilly for
00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:17.580
nine years or so in Nova Scotia. And as I was
00:15:17.580 --> 00:15:19.679
working, I was always trying to flex the entrepreneurial
00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:22.440
muscle and got to the point in my career where,
00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:25.059
you know, I'm not too far away from having the
00:15:25.059 --> 00:15:28.299
partner conversation. And so do I want to explore
00:15:28.299 --> 00:15:30.899
that or do I want to, I'd always kind of thought
00:15:30.899 --> 00:15:33.259
about going out on my own. Do I want to go and
00:15:33.259 --> 00:15:35.860
explore that and scratch that itch? And so that's,
00:15:35.860 --> 00:15:37.720
you know, that plus a number of other factors
00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:41.000
led me to start Brightline with my business partner,
00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:44.059
Stacey, who also is from Baker Chili. We left
00:15:44.059 --> 00:15:47.360
together to start that. So yeah, I'd say combination
00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:50.200
of different things, but like really exploring
00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:52.940
the entrepreneurial side of myself and what that
00:15:52.940 --> 00:15:54.980
could do for accounting was probably the main
00:15:54.980 --> 00:15:58.440
driver. big opportunity to walk away from the
00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:01.200
partner route at a firm, especially a firm of
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:04.480
status and size of Baker Tilly. Yeah. Talk me
00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:05.779
through that decision because it couldn't have
00:16:05.779 --> 00:16:09.879
been easy. It was not. I'm a very type A, like
00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:12.600
high anxiety person. And so even like thinking
00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:16.039
of, of leaving that environment was like, it
00:16:16.039 --> 00:16:18.320
was a very stressful time. And I think like,
00:16:18.409 --> 00:16:20.169
You know, I was probably a couple of years away
00:16:20.169 --> 00:16:22.470
from the partner conversation. My partner Stacey
00:16:22.470 --> 00:16:25.470
was like having the start of those conversations
00:16:25.470 --> 00:16:27.789
when she left. And so for both of us, it was
00:16:27.789 --> 00:16:30.950
a big decision and we didn't really have a plan.
00:16:31.190 --> 00:16:33.529
We didn't really have, you know, a safety net.
00:16:33.850 --> 00:16:35.230
Like neither of us were sitting on a huge pile
00:16:35.230 --> 00:16:37.789
of savings or, you know, what, if this goes wrong,
00:16:37.950 --> 00:16:40.210
other than, you know, we're CPAs. So if it goes
00:16:40.210 --> 00:16:42.509
wrong, just go get a job pretty much anywhere.
00:16:42.690 --> 00:16:44.950
And that's a safety net of its own, I guess.
00:16:45.250 --> 00:16:47.870
But I think like. What ultimately did it was,
00:16:47.870 --> 00:16:50.250
you know, for my own personal development, I
00:16:50.250 --> 00:16:53.809
was trying to fit somewhere within this firm.
00:16:54.350 --> 00:16:56.009
And throughout my time there, like when I did
00:16:56.009 --> 00:16:58.330
my first co -op term, it was 30 or 35 people.
00:16:58.330 --> 00:17:00.929
And by the time I left, it was like 130 people.
00:17:01.409 --> 00:17:04.150
So in a 10 year period, that's a huge amount
00:17:04.150 --> 00:17:06.630
of growth. And obviously it was a very different
00:17:06.630 --> 00:17:12.039
firm. I felt like, I felt like I really wanted
00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:15.099
to, I'm a big fan of client service. I'm a big
00:17:15.099 --> 00:17:17.420
fan of the customer experience. uh, and making
00:17:17.420 --> 00:17:19.740
sure that people are getting what they pay for,
00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:21.859
uh, and just doing things differently, not because
00:17:21.859 --> 00:17:24.539
that's what we did last year. And so the other
00:17:24.539 --> 00:17:27.579
driving force, uh, behind the decision to leave
00:17:27.579 --> 00:17:31.619
was if I want to, if I want to do something different,
00:17:31.660 --> 00:17:35.680
if I want to do something more focused on the
00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:38.259
client experience or provide more advisory services
00:17:38.259 --> 00:17:41.180
or whatever, can I execute on that in the way
00:17:41.180 --> 00:17:44.690
that I want to in a model where I've got 15 other
00:17:44.690 --> 00:17:48.210
partners and it's this huge company that, you
00:17:48.210 --> 00:17:51.230
know, companies of that size are hard to pivot,
00:17:51.450 --> 00:17:54.069
hard to make a quick decision and be nimble.
00:17:54.190 --> 00:17:57.069
And so that was ultimately it. I just, I kind
00:17:57.069 --> 00:18:01.549
of had to do it for me. Yeah. I mean, it's been
00:18:01.549 --> 00:18:03.970
a great decision so far. Like it's been very
00:18:03.970 --> 00:18:06.750
stressful and there's been not great times, but
00:18:06.750 --> 00:18:10.950
I'm super glad I did it. And yeah, I'd say like
00:18:10.950 --> 00:18:13.069
anybody kind of struggling with that decision.
00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:16.579
Really like just think about, think about yourself,
00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:19.420
be a little selfish. Cause sometimes it's easy
00:18:19.420 --> 00:18:21.099
to like think about the pressures from other
00:18:21.099 --> 00:18:23.500
people. Like I certainly had to consider, you
00:18:23.500 --> 00:18:25.039
know, I'm letting down people that I've worked
00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:27.579
with for almost a decade and had high expectations
00:18:27.579 --> 00:18:30.859
of me and, and all my family and all this stuff,
00:18:30.859 --> 00:18:34.609
but I just did it for me. Probably one of the
00:18:34.609 --> 00:18:36.650
best reasons to do it is to do it for yourself.
00:18:37.309 --> 00:18:41.329
Yeah. I like the sort of removing red tape to
00:18:41.329 --> 00:18:43.809
better be able to serve the people that you want
00:18:43.809 --> 00:18:47.170
to help. I think that's a big focus point that
00:18:47.170 --> 00:18:50.170
a lot of business owners, especially in professional
00:18:50.170 --> 00:18:52.970
services, is one of the driving factors. Yeah.
00:18:53.150 --> 00:18:56.009
I think, especially in our profession, we are
00:18:56.009 --> 00:18:59.069
kind of prone to red tape. We're prone to not
00:18:59.069 --> 00:19:01.650
taking risks and we're prone to being really
00:19:01.650 --> 00:19:03.650
cautious and analytical. And I think there's
00:19:03.650 --> 00:19:05.549
a ton of value in that. I also think there's
00:19:05.549 --> 00:19:07.690
a ton of value in what I call the tech company
00:19:07.690 --> 00:19:09.769
approach, which is just ship it and iterate.
00:19:10.269 --> 00:19:13.299
Just do it. try something, any momentum is better
00:19:13.299 --> 00:19:15.759
than no momentum. And like for that, you kind
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:18.140
of have to not think about all the red tape,
00:19:18.339 --> 00:19:20.660
not think about all the ways it could go wrong.
00:19:21.140 --> 00:19:23.339
Just like put something out into the world and
00:19:23.339 --> 00:19:25.759
then see, you know, learn from that experience,
00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:28.019
see what works and what doesn't and just constantly
00:19:28.019 --> 00:19:29.960
iterate on that. And I wish they would teach
00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:32.819
more of that in like the accounting programs,
00:19:32.940 --> 00:19:35.660
like the CPA program or whatever, even in universities,
00:19:35.779 --> 00:19:38.079
like try to put some of that entrepreneurial
00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:41.170
spirit into. what accountants are doing, as opposed
00:19:41.170 --> 00:19:44.069
to just like follow the rules to the letter and
00:19:44.069 --> 00:19:46.170
don't take any risks. Yeah. It'll be interesting.
00:19:46.309 --> 00:19:48.210
I mean, the child accountancy program I went
00:19:48.210 --> 00:19:51.109
through in South Africa was, they made us as
00:19:51.109 --> 00:19:53.309
risk adverse as possible. Like that was the number
00:19:53.309 --> 00:19:57.809
one priority of the program. Yeah. In my program,
00:19:58.250 --> 00:20:00.869
the guy who taught it, he was very much like,
00:20:00.869 --> 00:20:03.670
just run with the herd. Like don't be ahead of
00:20:03.670 --> 00:20:05.980
the herd. Definitely don't be behind, but just
00:20:05.980 --> 00:20:09.420
run with the herd. The advice was conform and
00:20:09.420 --> 00:20:12.339
don't really do anything groundbreaking, which
00:20:12.339 --> 00:20:15.339
I don't think what our clients need right now.
00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:17.319
I have a brutal image of just a herd running
00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:20.299
and Antelope just getting taken up left, right
00:20:20.299 --> 00:20:23.339
and center. If you survive, that's a terrible
00:20:23.339 --> 00:20:26.059
way to think of the whole process. Oh my God.
00:20:26.230 --> 00:20:28.849
Yeah, it's awful. And they literally like the
00:20:28.849 --> 00:20:31.329
guy who was teaching, I forget his name now,
00:20:31.329 --> 00:20:33.910
but he always taught like the, the first kind
00:20:33.910 --> 00:20:35.829
of like couple of weeks of the, of the program
00:20:35.829 --> 00:20:38.789
would literally have that photo of like the antelope
00:20:38.789 --> 00:20:41.250
herd or gazelle herd on the screen when he said
00:20:41.250 --> 00:20:43.829
it. So like, I hear what you're saying. Yeah.
00:20:43.950 --> 00:20:45.609
Well, for anybody who's listening and thinking
00:20:45.609 --> 00:20:47.230
of getting into the kind of profession, I promise
00:20:47.230 --> 00:20:50.569
you it's better than that. That's just a pretty,
00:20:50.690 --> 00:20:53.950
pretty, you know, old perception of where it
00:20:53.950 --> 00:20:57.380
is. And we released. evolved and we have great
00:20:57.380 --> 00:20:59.839
firms like Brightline. And I'd like to hear,
00:21:00.019 --> 00:21:03.240
like with the stress, the anxiety, what is that
00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:04.920
conversation with your business partner, Stacey,
00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:07.759
on like, what are we going to do? Yeah. I mean,
00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:09.880
do you mean like initially kind of starting?
00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:14.160
Yeah, like we're leaving these cushy jobs. Yeah.
00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:18.160
What's the plan? Yeah. I mean, yeah, we didn't
00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:20.640
have much of a plan other than we knew there
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:22.380
had to be a better way. The best plan right there.
00:21:22.579 --> 00:21:25.019
No plan. Don't have a plan at all. No, we had,
00:21:25.019 --> 00:21:28.539
what's the quote? We had concepts of a plan.
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:31.299
So we knew what we wanted to do and the reason
00:21:31.299 --> 00:21:33.619
we wanted to do it was because we knew there
00:21:33.619 --> 00:21:36.480
had to be a better way. to serve clients the
00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:38.500
way that we wanted to. So working in a bigger
00:21:38.500 --> 00:21:41.059
firm, we had a couple hundred, well, Stacey certainly
00:21:41.059 --> 00:21:42.759
had a couple hundred clients herself. She was
00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:45.039
very much on the compliance, kind of like small
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:48.579
business, ANA side. And I work in the tax department.
00:21:48.700 --> 00:21:51.039
So a little bit different, but still kind of
00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:52.680
the same in that we were just, you know, both
00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:54.640
churning through stuff. We didn't have a ton
00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:57.039
of opportunity to really like get to know a client
00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:59.779
super well, know all the ins and outs, what's
00:21:59.779 --> 00:22:02.069
important. to them, you know, what their goals
00:22:02.069 --> 00:22:04.509
are and like really tailor what we're doing to
00:22:04.509 --> 00:22:06.869
that. So we knew that we wanted to do better.
00:22:06.950 --> 00:22:08.769
We just didn't really know how we were going
00:22:08.769 --> 00:22:10.609
to do it, but we knew we couldn't do it in this
00:22:10.609 --> 00:22:12.390
environment. So we had to get out and we just
00:22:12.390 --> 00:22:13.829
kind of figured it out from there. So that's
00:22:13.829 --> 00:22:16.529
what we did. And we started out by doing what
00:22:16.529 --> 00:22:19.430
we knew how to do. So we were each sitting in
00:22:19.430 --> 00:22:21.390
our respective living rooms, like slinging tax
00:22:21.390 --> 00:22:23.690
returns, doing year -end financial statements.
00:22:23.750 --> 00:22:27.420
I was doing. Like tax advisory work for businesses,
00:22:27.700 --> 00:22:29.500
so corporate restructurings. And I was doing
00:22:29.500 --> 00:22:31.440
that for other like small accounting firms too.
00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:35.000
And as we kind of did that, we learned that a
00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:37.559
lot of people wanted bookkeeping because they
00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:39.500
wanted to have conversations with their accountant
00:22:39.500 --> 00:22:42.279
throughout the year about anything, anything
00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:44.619
that required the accounting data, just stuff.
00:22:45.500 --> 00:22:48.000
And in my opinion, advisory is just talking about
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.319
stuff. So we were like, great, we want to lean
00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:53.099
into advisory. We've settled on that. But we
00:22:53.099 --> 00:22:55.900
also don't trust the situation where we've got
00:22:55.900 --> 00:23:00.700
the receptionist brothers, aunts, dogs, sister
00:23:00.700 --> 00:23:03.019
preparing the books. So we wanted to have control
00:23:03.019 --> 00:23:04.799
over that. And so we rolled out bookkeeping.
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:06.940
Our first hire was a bookkeeper that was eight
00:23:06.940 --> 00:23:08.759
months into the firm. Like maybe three months
00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:11.079
after that, we hired our second bookkeeper. And
00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:12.759
now if you look at the bright line of today,
00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:15.960
it's very much focused on the advisory piece
00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:18.819
of things. So we, we market that as like fractional
00:23:18.819 --> 00:23:20.759
CFO or fractional controllership and there's
00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:24.460
advisory tied to those things. But the core of
00:23:24.460 --> 00:23:26.960
our team is bookkeeping and making sure that
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:29.559
that data is right and the systems that collect
00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:31.779
and process that data are set up in a way that
00:23:31.779 --> 00:23:34.799
they're automated and accurate. So when you started
00:23:34.799 --> 00:23:37.960
out, it's two individual personalities coming
00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:40.519
together, trying to work together. There had
00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:42.500
to have been some challenges. Tell me about those
00:23:42.500 --> 00:23:45.039
early days and how did that go about? I mean,
00:23:45.099 --> 00:23:46.960
it always sounds great. Like, hey, this is a
00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:48.380
great person. Like working with them, I feel
00:23:48.380 --> 00:23:50.279
like we've got the same mind and then it has
00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:53.950
to happen. Yeah. I don't think any partnership
00:23:53.950 --> 00:23:56.269
is perfect. So I'm not going to say we have the
00:23:56.269 --> 00:23:59.029
perfect role model partnership, but certainly
00:23:59.029 --> 00:24:02.009
like, I think we work well together because we're
00:24:02.009 --> 00:24:03.970
different personalities, but obviously that also
00:24:03.970 --> 00:24:06.369
means there's going to be conflict. So, and I'm
00:24:06.369 --> 00:24:09.250
sure Stacey will have something to say when she
00:24:09.250 --> 00:24:12.630
sees this, but she's very much still like process
00:24:12.630 --> 00:24:16.170
driven, like operations driven, like how do we
00:24:16.170 --> 00:24:19.369
get this done in a way that isn't like scrambly?
00:24:19.450 --> 00:24:22.420
And I'm very much the Like, let's just get it
00:24:22.420 --> 00:24:24.759
done. I don't care what it looks like, except
00:24:24.759 --> 00:24:27.279
I do care very deeply what it looks like. And,
00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:29.420
you know, it just very like the, almost like
00:24:29.420 --> 00:24:32.839
that visionary implementer style of partnership.
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:36.720
And so I think like when, when we have conflict,
00:24:36.980 --> 00:24:40.099
I just try, I expect conflict and I just want
00:24:40.099 --> 00:24:42.539
it to be productive. So I don't want us to just
00:24:42.539 --> 00:24:44.819
be like butting heads for no reason. I want us
00:24:44.819 --> 00:24:48.259
to be doing that to come to the best. solution
00:24:48.259 --> 00:24:50.779
or the best product that we can. And certainly
00:24:50.779 --> 00:24:52.819
I think that's worked really well for us, especially
00:24:52.819 --> 00:24:56.680
knowing how to have conflict driven conversations
00:24:56.680 --> 00:24:59.440
that aren't like personal attacks and that they
00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:02.619
aren't like conflict for no reason, but really
00:25:02.619 --> 00:25:05.099
just to like hash it out, put everything on the
00:25:05.099 --> 00:25:09.099
table, say your piece and like come to a good
00:25:09.099 --> 00:25:11.420
collaborative solution. We found a lot of success
00:25:11.420 --> 00:25:14.220
in that and it hasn't always been easy, especially
00:25:14.220 --> 00:25:16.170
when you're first starting. It's like. You're
00:25:16.170 --> 00:25:18.009
still getting to know this person and all of
00:25:18.009 --> 00:25:20.549
their idiosyncrasies and what's important to
00:25:20.549 --> 00:25:23.609
them and how they operate. Working together at
00:25:23.609 --> 00:25:25.910
Baker Tilly, we knew some of that, but when you're
00:25:25.910 --> 00:25:28.509
business partners, you're in it with each other.
00:25:29.410 --> 00:25:31.329
You're learning a lot about the other person.
00:25:32.029 --> 00:25:34.529
It took us a long time to get to a point where
00:25:34.529 --> 00:25:37.609
we were super open and honest and communicating
00:25:37.609 --> 00:25:39.630
with each other in a way that we needed to, but
00:25:39.630 --> 00:25:43.869
once we just fully trusted each other and knew
00:25:43.869 --> 00:25:46.599
that... when we were saying things, you know,
00:25:46.700 --> 00:25:48.700
that might be a little brutal or harsh. Like
00:25:48.700 --> 00:25:50.799
it was for the better of each other and for the
00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:53.240
better of the firm. And once we figured that
00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:55.859
out and lean into it, it was, our relationship
00:25:55.859 --> 00:25:58.559
became way, way better. Yeah, that's a good point.
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:01.119
I mean, I think if any relationship never has
00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:03.299
some conflict, there's most likely a problem.
00:26:03.660 --> 00:26:06.619
Definitely. And we went through, we went through
00:26:06.619 --> 00:26:10.140
a merger in November of 2025. And I kept telling
00:26:10.140 --> 00:26:11.720
Stacey and I kept telling our business coach
00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:14.119
too, I was, I'm just looking for the conflict.
00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:16.460
Like things were a little too agreeable to start
00:26:16.460 --> 00:26:19.480
and I just, I need the conflict. I need to see
00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:21.720
the, where's the discussion that's going to happen.
00:26:21.859 --> 00:26:23.400
That's going to get us to where we need to go.
00:26:23.720 --> 00:26:26.099
So yeah, I'm, I'm seeking it out on purpose.
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:27.539
That's a good way to look at it. It shouldn't
00:26:27.539 --> 00:26:29.420
be all smooth sailing. If there's not a little
00:26:29.420 --> 00:26:30.720
bit of bump here and there, it means we're not
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:32.599
pushing hard enough, right? We're not, we're
00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:34.819
not like really testing each other. Unfortunately,
00:26:35.259 --> 00:26:37.670
you know, especially with a partnership relationship,
00:26:37.930 --> 00:26:39.170
it probably means you're not being honest with
00:26:39.170 --> 00:26:42.349
each other. Yeah, absolutely. Like if you're
00:26:42.349 --> 00:26:45.289
agreeing on a hundred percent of things, somebody's
00:26:45.289 --> 00:26:47.650
not being honest because I don't know any two
00:26:47.650 --> 00:26:50.289
people ever that have agreed on a hundred percent
00:26:50.289 --> 00:26:52.869
of things. It just doesn't happen. Everybody
00:26:52.869 --> 00:26:56.130
is so unique in their approach and their values
00:26:56.130 --> 00:26:59.009
and opinions that there's got to be even a minor
00:26:59.009 --> 00:27:02.089
disagreement. And I find that, like, I think
00:27:02.089 --> 00:27:05.099
I do a great job. at certain things. But I know
00:27:05.099 --> 00:27:08.059
that I can do a better job if I have those other
00:27:08.059 --> 00:27:10.259
perspectives, especially because I like to rush
00:27:10.259 --> 00:27:13.700
and go fast. I benefit a ton from looking at
00:27:13.700 --> 00:27:16.279
things in a way that slows me down and gets me
00:27:16.279 --> 00:27:19.220
to think critically about certain things. And
00:27:19.220 --> 00:27:22.319
if I didn't have that, I would be executing at
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:24.980
a suboptimal level. So for me, it just makes
00:27:24.980 --> 00:27:27.819
sense to put somebody in that slows me down.
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:29.660
And yeah, there's conflict from that. But it
00:27:29.660 --> 00:27:32.279
ultimately results in what I think are better
00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:34.740
decisions made for the, you know, for our team
00:27:34.740 --> 00:27:39.259
and for the firm. Yeah, I agree. And what I'm
00:27:39.259 --> 00:27:42.140
hearing from this as well is that really understanding
00:27:42.140 --> 00:27:45.940
your development areas, I think the political
00:27:45.940 --> 00:27:48.200
correct term we're supposed to use, right? The
00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:49.900
places we need a little bit of support, a little
00:27:49.900 --> 00:27:52.210
scaffolding. It's important to know what those
00:27:52.210 --> 00:27:54.450
are so you can find the right support, be it
00:27:54.450 --> 00:27:56.089
from a business partner, be it from a coach,
00:27:56.170 --> 00:27:59.230
be it from a manager that you bring in to support
00:27:59.230 --> 00:28:01.410
you, you know, be your second in charge. Yeah.
00:28:01.890 --> 00:28:05.549
I think being, being really self -aware of where
00:28:05.549 --> 00:28:08.150
you need to improve, especially as you're looking
00:28:08.150 --> 00:28:10.710
to scale a business. Like when we merged, I had
00:28:10.710 --> 00:28:13.910
to learn very quickly to be the leader that the
00:28:13.910 --> 00:28:16.269
firm needed me to be. And that was not easy.
00:28:16.829 --> 00:28:19.130
And it was very difficult. And I would say I'm,
00:28:19.250 --> 00:28:21.609
you know, it's only been. what, 10 months, it's,
00:28:21.609 --> 00:28:23.569
it's still a work in progress. I'm still learning
00:28:23.569 --> 00:28:27.549
how to be that leader, but I'm open enough to
00:28:27.549 --> 00:28:30.849
feedback and I'm open enough to, um, you know,
00:28:30.930 --> 00:28:33.470
just like understanding where I fall short or
00:28:33.470 --> 00:28:35.890
where I could improve and like being really intentional
00:28:35.890 --> 00:28:38.529
about how I, you know, learn to be better at
00:28:38.529 --> 00:28:41.009
that thing, whatever it is. And I think more
00:28:41.009 --> 00:28:44.150
people need to be open to, you know, just like
00:28:44.150 --> 00:28:46.970
how can I improve and, and taking that again,
00:28:47.049 --> 00:28:50.029
not with with the, you know, with the connotation
00:28:50.029 --> 00:28:52.710
that it's negative, but it's, it's really meant
00:28:52.710 --> 00:28:55.490
to make you the better or best version of yourself.
00:28:57.329 --> 00:28:58.630
Was that the moment where you realized you have
00:28:58.630 --> 00:29:00.690
to go from business owner to leader or was there
00:29:00.690 --> 00:29:02.690
a point in time where that realization kicked
00:29:02.690 --> 00:29:05.009
in earlier? No, it was that. Yeah, that's, that's
00:29:05.009 --> 00:29:07.250
a really great point. I feel like people, people
00:29:07.250 --> 00:29:10.230
think that being a business owner is, you know,
00:29:10.309 --> 00:29:12.490
the same as, as being a leader, but it's not,
00:29:12.569 --> 00:29:14.329
you know, a business owner is somebody who owns
00:29:14.329 --> 00:29:16.710
shares and that could be literally anyone, but.
00:29:17.049 --> 00:29:20.109
Being a leader is so much more different and
00:29:20.109 --> 00:29:24.990
difficult because it's really hard to take the
00:29:24.990 --> 00:29:27.890
vision and the strategy and the purpose of things,
00:29:27.970 --> 00:29:30.910
which is where I occupy a lot of my time, and
00:29:30.910 --> 00:29:34.470
bring that down to the person doing the incorrects
00:29:34.470 --> 00:29:38.130
and being able to really inspire people, to guide
00:29:38.130 --> 00:29:41.509
them, to coach them. There's a whole ton of skills
00:29:41.509 --> 00:29:44.609
that make up that role. that I find, you know,
00:29:44.609 --> 00:29:46.250
as accountants, we don't spend a lot of time
00:29:46.250 --> 00:29:48.349
on when we think about, you know, especially
00:29:48.349 --> 00:29:51.430
CPA mandated, like PD hours. A lot of times we're
00:29:51.430 --> 00:29:54.769
doing webinars on financial reporting or like
00:29:54.769 --> 00:29:56.890
a tax planning strategy or something like that.
00:29:56.990 --> 00:29:59.730
But I love learning about like, I did like a
00:29:59.730 --> 00:30:02.569
day long course on how to coach people because
00:30:02.569 --> 00:30:05.049
I love coaching. And I think like being able
00:30:05.049 --> 00:30:07.549
to bring out the best of my team is something
00:30:07.549 --> 00:30:09.390
that's important for me to do as a leader. So
00:30:09.390 --> 00:30:12.079
I invest the time in learning how to. to do that
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:14.140
in the best way that I can. And I encourage other
00:30:14.140 --> 00:30:17.039
people to do that too. Um, who are, who are leading
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:19.220
teams, whether it's a, you know, a three person
00:30:19.220 --> 00:30:21.880
team or a hundred person team. Yeah. Important
00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:23.799
skills and talk my language I love. You're talking
00:30:23.799 --> 00:30:26.200
communication, you're talking personal development
00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:29.660
and both of those areas that accountants in general
00:30:29.660 --> 00:30:32.200
need more help. And you've gone through the gamble,
00:30:32.339 --> 00:30:34.079
right? You went from an accountant to entrepreneur.
00:30:34.359 --> 00:30:36.680
You realized, well, I maybe didn't necessarily
00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:38.619
get the right skills through my education and
00:30:38.619 --> 00:30:40.339
how to teach yourself how to be an entrepreneur.
00:30:40.589 --> 00:30:44.049
Which is hard enough Yeah, so let's go back to
00:30:44.049 --> 00:30:46.309
that time like was there a moment when you woke
00:30:46.309 --> 00:30:48.430
up when you started the firm You're like, I'm
00:30:48.430 --> 00:30:49.970
a business owner right now. I need to start acting
00:30:49.970 --> 00:30:53.190
like one Yeah, I've always kind of felt um, you
00:30:53.190 --> 00:30:55.990
know I'm not the accountant in a suit and tie
00:30:55.990 --> 00:30:59.970
who's like prim and polished and proper and whatever
00:30:59.970 --> 00:31:03.549
I'm just me and People who want to work with
00:31:03.549 --> 00:31:05.210
that great and people who don't that's fine,
00:31:05.329 --> 00:31:09.390
too. But certainly I've as I've grown in business
00:31:09.390 --> 00:31:11.970
ownership and leadership. I've definitely learned
00:31:11.970 --> 00:31:15.230
to change who I am, but really just like feel
00:31:15.230 --> 00:31:18.589
out when it's appropriate for certain communication
00:31:18.589 --> 00:31:21.450
styles, certain, you know, behaviors and whatever,
00:31:21.589 --> 00:31:24.930
whatever. There's definitely like a benefit to
00:31:24.930 --> 00:31:27.509
being, you know, a certain type of way with,
00:31:27.569 --> 00:31:30.750
with your team, with your clients. Again, not
00:31:30.750 --> 00:31:33.509
being, you know, untrue to yourself or not being,
00:31:33.509 --> 00:31:35.630
you know, authentically you, but really just
00:31:35.630 --> 00:31:39.029
kind of like. learning how best to handle a situation
00:31:39.029 --> 00:31:42.549
and how to act in that situation based on what
00:31:42.549 --> 00:31:44.589
you know about your team and what you know about
00:31:44.589 --> 00:31:48.549
your clients. So yeah, I think it's been a huge
00:31:48.589 --> 00:31:50.650
growth opportunity for me, like starting the
00:31:50.650 --> 00:31:53.250
firm and scaling it to what it is now. And I've
00:31:53.250 --> 00:31:55.150
really enjoyed it. I've really enjoyed learning
00:31:55.150 --> 00:31:58.130
about what I'm good at and not good at, where
00:31:58.130 --> 00:32:00.829
I spend my time, what I can get better at, and
00:32:00.829 --> 00:32:04.430
how I can use that to execute on. what our original
00:32:04.430 --> 00:32:07.049
goal is, which was just to have, you know, an
00:32:07.049 --> 00:32:10.869
accounting firm that does better by clients than,
00:32:10.869 --> 00:32:13.009
you know, traditional firms. That's great. You
00:32:13.009 --> 00:32:14.970
started with a vision of what your firm could
00:32:14.970 --> 00:32:18.509
be. You have what your firm is now. How different
00:32:18.509 --> 00:32:21.950
are those two? You know, I read a book by, I
00:32:21.950 --> 00:32:23.930
think it was Cameron Harold, who's like this,
00:32:23.970 --> 00:32:27.589
who was the COO of 1 -800 -Godjunk. And he wrote
00:32:27.589 --> 00:32:31.660
a book called Vivid Vision. pretty short read,
00:32:31.940 --> 00:32:34.200
definitely would recommend it to anybody who's
00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:36.619
kind of on the entrepreneurial journey. But the
00:32:36.619 --> 00:32:40.660
key takeaway there is document exactly what you
00:32:40.660 --> 00:32:42.099
want your firm to look like. Like don't just
00:32:42.099 --> 00:32:44.279
have a one sentence, like we want to be the best
00:32:44.279 --> 00:32:47.039
at customer service type of vision, but like
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:49.440
exactly what you want it to look like. And so
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:51.500
I went through the exercise recommended in the
00:32:51.500 --> 00:32:53.559
book where, you know, for a couple of days, I
00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:55.539
just went and I sat for a few hours with a little
00:32:55.539 --> 00:32:58.299
notebook and I just scribbled and I wrote. super,
00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:00.960
super granularly, like what I want a firm to
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:02.900
look like. And, you know, reviewed that with
00:33:02.900 --> 00:33:05.660
Stacey, reviewed that with my team at one of
00:33:05.660 --> 00:33:08.359
our annual retreats, got feedback on it, tweaked
00:33:08.359 --> 00:33:10.880
it. And now, you know, it's something that I
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:12.960
haven't had a ton of time to go back to. We've
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:15.380
been busy with the merger. I went from eight
00:33:15.380 --> 00:33:18.259
people to 25 overnight. I'd had to learn how
00:33:18.259 --> 00:33:20.890
to be. Which that doesn't sound like a huge jump,
00:33:21.309 --> 00:33:24.490
but it's huge. It's huge. You have to be a totally
00:33:24.490 --> 00:33:27.009
different person to manage that business versus
00:33:27.009 --> 00:33:29.950
like an eight person business. And so all of
00:33:29.950 --> 00:33:32.029
that has caused me to not spend a ton of time,
00:33:32.150 --> 00:33:34.190
like looking back at that. But I did recently
00:33:34.190 --> 00:33:36.470
in preparation for our next corporate retreat.
00:33:36.690 --> 00:33:38.789
So I've been looking through it and honestly,
00:33:39.130 --> 00:33:42.289
like we've hit a lot of the stuff kind of unintentionally
00:33:42.289 --> 00:33:45.089
that was in that vision document. You know, we've,
00:33:45.089 --> 00:33:47.960
we've We've come to realize some of the goals
00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:50.519
in there without even having them on our like
00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:52.900
strategic priorities for the quarter or, you
00:33:52.900 --> 00:33:54.799
know, without having like a specific intention
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:58.539
to like, oh, we need to do this now. It's just
00:33:58.539 --> 00:34:00.220
like, it's just kind of happened organically
00:34:00.220 --> 00:34:03.380
because the team that we have understands what
00:34:03.380 --> 00:34:05.619
we're trying to do. I still think I could do
00:34:05.619 --> 00:34:07.660
a better job in communicating the full vision
00:34:07.660 --> 00:34:09.619
to them, but they understand what we're about
00:34:09.619 --> 00:34:11.840
and how we approach things. And so they've come
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:13.820
up with some of these things without even knowing
00:34:13.820 --> 00:34:16.699
that it's on my roadmap. So we've got work to
00:34:16.699 --> 00:34:18.900
do still, obviously, like it's a multi -year
00:34:18.900 --> 00:34:22.199
plan, but I'm impressed with how far along we
00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:24.019
are on that. Mike, what do you do on a day -to
00:34:24.019 --> 00:34:26.579
-day basis as this firm owner that's running
00:34:26.579 --> 00:34:29.119
the advisory side? Like what does a day in the
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:31.159
life of Mike look like? Yeah, I'm sure some of
00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:33.039
my team would love to know this too. I know my
00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:34.420
team always wants to know what I'm up to and
00:34:34.420 --> 00:34:37.599
I can't really tell them, so let's just go. Yeah,
00:34:37.619 --> 00:34:39.539
because are you still doing client work anymore,
00:34:39.699 --> 00:34:43.340
Zane? A little bit. Yeah, okay. Same here. I
00:34:43.340 --> 00:34:45.460
dabble in it. There's some like tax things that
00:34:45.460 --> 00:34:47.420
I just have accumulated a ton of knowledge in
00:34:47.420 --> 00:34:49.559
that I like still stick my head in for that,
00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:52.440
but I'm largely not doing it. I would say like
00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:57.360
my role has a couple of key pillars to it. Technology
00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:00.039
is one, like strategy and vision is another.
00:35:00.179 --> 00:35:02.159
Sales and marketing, big part of what I do. And
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:04.960
then just, you know, people leadership. So I
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:07.960
think what that distills to in like a, you know,
00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:10.500
I don't really have like a daily, you know, a
00:35:10.500 --> 00:35:13.550
typical day because any business owner Uh, has,
00:35:13.550 --> 00:35:14.969
you know, a hundred different hats to wear any
00:35:14.969 --> 00:35:17.570
given day, but I'd say largely, like I always
00:35:17.570 --> 00:35:20.610
try to start my day with an hour of blocked focus
00:35:20.610 --> 00:35:23.809
time. So. You know, teams and my phone or do
00:35:23.809 --> 00:35:26.190
not disturb. And I'm just like using that time
00:35:26.190 --> 00:35:28.730
to either experiment with something. So like
00:35:28.730 --> 00:35:31.010
try a new AI tool or try to automate something
00:35:31.010 --> 00:35:33.130
that's been bothering me any of those times when
00:35:33.130 --> 00:35:35.349
you're like, I wish we were like doing this,
00:35:35.349 --> 00:35:38.030
or I wish I had time to do that. That goes in
00:35:38.030 --> 00:35:40.869
my one hour block every day from there. I spend
00:35:40.869 --> 00:35:44.190
a lot of time in meetings. So. I do run the sales
00:35:44.190 --> 00:35:46.849
function for the firm. So it's a lot of discovery
00:35:46.849 --> 00:35:49.670
calls, a lot of kickoff calls, moving from sales
00:35:49.670 --> 00:35:52.130
to onboarding and a lot of calls with the team
00:35:52.130 --> 00:35:54.670
just to make sure that everybody's working on
00:35:54.670 --> 00:35:56.929
the right stuff that they need to work on and
00:35:56.929 --> 00:35:58.469
that sort of thing. So I'd say like, I don't
00:35:58.469 --> 00:36:01.489
know, two to five hours a day of meeting, sometimes
00:36:01.489 --> 00:36:03.730
more, sometimes less. And I also spent a lot
00:36:03.730 --> 00:36:06.769
of time coaching my team. So like I said, I like
00:36:06.769 --> 00:36:09.889
to coach people. People leadership is very much
00:36:09.889 --> 00:36:13.519
within the wheelhouse of my role. So I do regular
00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:15.440
recurring coaching calls with most of my team,
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:17.860
trying to get everybody, but I'm only one person.
00:36:18.099 --> 00:36:21.519
So I can't, can't do it for all 20 some odd people
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:23.760
effectively. So still looking at a way to do
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:26.260
that. And so outside of, you know, kind of focus
00:36:26.260 --> 00:36:28.820
time with tech and, you know, sales and marketing
00:36:28.820 --> 00:36:31.760
stuff, the rest of my time is largely spent on
00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:34.059
project work and not like client project work,
00:36:34.340 --> 00:36:36.559
but project work for the, for the firm. So some
00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:38.869
of the stuff I've been working on. We launched
00:36:38.869 --> 00:36:41.750
a pricing calculator on our webpage recently.
00:36:42.030 --> 00:36:44.369
So I spent a lot of time kind of developing that
00:36:44.369 --> 00:36:47.070
and also writing the accompanying like pricing,
00:36:47.409 --> 00:36:49.650
accounting pricing guide article, which I read
00:36:49.650 --> 00:36:53.409
a book called endless customers. I forget it's
00:36:53.409 --> 00:36:55.389
there's another name for it, but they recently
00:36:55.389 --> 00:36:57.409
changed it to endless customers. Anyway, great
00:36:57.409 --> 00:37:00.690
book about sales and building trust with customers.
00:37:00.750 --> 00:37:03.690
And I've pulled a lot from that. And you know,
00:37:03.710 --> 00:37:05.510
the pricing calculator and the pricing guide
00:37:05.510 --> 00:37:08.159
kind of came from. you know, direct takeaways
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:10.840
from that book. I have also been working on,
00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:13.760
been working on like cashflow projects. So like
00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:15.920
we are going to launch a cashflow lead magnet
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:18.500
that gives people some information about cashflow
00:37:18.500 --> 00:37:20.219
health and their business and tie that into like
00:37:20.219 --> 00:37:23.199
a one -off advisory project that will do like
00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:25.800
a deep kind of cashflow diagnostic and 90 day
00:37:25.800 --> 00:37:28.639
plan to kind of bring that around. So. That type
00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:30.900
of project work for the firm, also like doing
00:37:30.900 --> 00:37:33.659
kind of a large scale tax planning project across
00:37:33.659 --> 00:37:36.139
the client base. So just that kind of stuff really
00:37:36.139 --> 00:37:38.320
just focus, again, focus on like the client experience
00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:41.420
and sales, like drumming up some additional revenue
00:37:41.420 --> 00:37:44.559
for the firm. Yeah. They sound eerily similar,
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:46.219
but you might be a little bit more productive
00:37:46.219 --> 00:37:51.170
than me. Some days, some days. I am glad you
00:37:51.170 --> 00:37:53.469
brought up the pricing tool because I definitely
00:37:53.469 --> 00:37:56.690
wanted to talk about that. And I quickly Googled
00:37:56.690 --> 00:37:59.699
up endless. customers, I say Google a little
00:37:59.699 --> 00:38:02.500
bit, so my co -pilot gave me, gave me the response
00:38:02.500 --> 00:38:04.980
and, and this customer is a proven business growth
00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:07.079
system and book by Marcus Sheridan that helps
00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:09.480
companies build trust, attract the right buyers
00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:12.559
and generate consistent, sustainable revenue.
00:38:12.820 --> 00:38:16.400
It was a great book. It aligned with my values
00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:18.300
as a, you know, as an entrepreneur and certainly
00:38:18.300 --> 00:38:20.809
our values as a firm. We're just trying to be
00:38:20.809 --> 00:38:24.070
incredibly helpful to people. And so if you are
00:38:24.070 --> 00:38:27.309
helpful without an expectation, if you are authentic,
00:38:27.469 --> 00:38:30.570
if you are open and transparent, the whole concept
00:38:30.570 --> 00:38:32.610
of the book is like that will attract a certain
00:38:32.610 --> 00:38:35.070
type of person and builds trust really quickly.
00:38:35.389 --> 00:38:38.409
So if you think about like an optimal kind of
00:38:38.409 --> 00:38:40.949
sales process, ideally, especially like in our
00:38:40.949 --> 00:38:42.730
industry where we're, you know, service -based
00:38:42.730 --> 00:38:47.210
and high trust, you want to have like warm, educated,
00:38:47.750 --> 00:38:50.469
engaged buyers. And so if you follow the concepts
00:38:50.469 --> 00:38:52.750
in the endless customers book, which again is
00:38:52.750 --> 00:38:55.050
not rocket science, just be helpful, open, and
00:38:55.050 --> 00:38:57.809
honest, you're going to have buyers coming to
00:38:57.809 --> 00:38:59.829
you that are, they're educated because you've
00:38:59.829 --> 00:39:01.889
been sharing all this information for free and
00:39:01.889 --> 00:39:04.190
educating them, especially on accounting, which
00:39:04.190 --> 00:39:07.130
most people see as like this black box of mystery.
00:39:07.449 --> 00:39:09.750
And they're going to be trusting because you're
00:39:09.750 --> 00:39:11.630
sharing all this information that nobody else
00:39:11.630 --> 00:39:14.309
is sharing or very few people are sharing. So
00:39:14.309 --> 00:39:16.170
yeah, I'm really leaning into the concepts of
00:39:16.170 --> 00:39:19.190
that. I think it's still too early on to say
00:39:19.190 --> 00:39:21.289
like, Hey, it's a, you know, it's a slam dunk,
00:39:21.690 --> 00:39:23.469
but certainly it's aligned with what I want to
00:39:23.469 --> 00:39:25.510
do. So again, I'm just trying it and seeing if
00:39:25.510 --> 00:39:27.690
it works and we'll go from there. So why do you
00:39:27.690 --> 00:39:30.010
think pricing transparency is so important? I
00:39:30.010 --> 00:39:33.630
would say as somebody who has talked to a lot
00:39:33.630 --> 00:39:36.969
of clients in their relatively short career,
00:39:37.269 --> 00:39:39.969
it's like the biggest. point of contention. It's
00:39:39.969 --> 00:39:42.789
the biggest point of confusion. It's where I,
00:39:42.789 --> 00:39:44.730
especially working at Baker Tilly, once I was
00:39:44.730 --> 00:39:46.789
in a manager role and responsible for billing,
00:39:47.150 --> 00:39:49.349
where I spent most of my time like communicating
00:39:49.349 --> 00:39:51.469
with clients. They didn't understand the bills,
00:39:51.989 --> 00:39:53.630
especially back then it was, you know, power
00:39:53.630 --> 00:39:56.289
by the hour. Here's the invoice for the project.
00:39:56.929 --> 00:39:58.809
And it just, people don't understand it. People
00:39:58.809 --> 00:40:00.889
don't know how we arrive at our prices. People
00:40:00.889 --> 00:40:03.889
don't know why prices differ between accountants
00:40:03.889 --> 00:40:06.489
and they don't understand like even what it is
00:40:06.489 --> 00:40:09.719
we do. So I thought part of the pricing calculator
00:40:09.719 --> 00:40:13.579
should be to help people navigate those conversations
00:40:13.579 --> 00:40:16.679
where they're looking at either talking to their
00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:18.780
current accounting partner and figuring out like,
00:40:18.920 --> 00:40:21.079
what exactly am I paying for? What am I getting
00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:23.300
for this fee? But also if they're shopping around
00:40:23.300 --> 00:40:25.500
looking for a new accounting partner, if you
00:40:25.500 --> 00:40:28.380
go to my firm and your firm, you'll get very
00:40:28.380 --> 00:40:30.719
different prices for a similar scope of work
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:32.940
because we do things very differently. Or maybe
00:40:32.940 --> 00:40:35.730
we don't, I don't know. I'm in California, so
00:40:35.730 --> 00:40:37.449
I'm guessing I'll be a little bit more expensive.
00:40:37.929 --> 00:40:39.710
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. So, you know, I
00:40:39.710 --> 00:40:42.909
think like having, having the information out
00:40:42.909 --> 00:40:46.590
there to understand like what is in an accounting
00:40:46.590 --> 00:40:49.309
proposal and what is not, how do we come up with
00:40:49.309 --> 00:40:52.389
the way that we price engagements? How do we,
00:40:52.510 --> 00:40:54.090
like what models do we use? Whatever, whatever.
00:40:54.570 --> 00:40:56.889
Uh, it's just one of those examples of like building
00:40:56.889 --> 00:40:59.469
trust and educating the buyer. So now when I
00:40:59.469 --> 00:41:01.389
come to people with the proposal, it's less about
00:41:01.389 --> 00:41:05.230
like, Well, why is it cost this much when Zane's
00:41:05.230 --> 00:41:07.710
firm quoted me half that price? Well, they know
00:41:07.710 --> 00:41:09.809
exactly what's in there and how to compare those
00:41:09.809 --> 00:41:12.670
things. Yeah. I would say a lot of it comes from
00:41:12.670 --> 00:41:14.769
confusion of what is actually included, right?
00:41:14.789 --> 00:41:16.789
So we've gone put a proposal out and it's like
00:41:16.789 --> 00:41:18.110
double the price. They're like, why so much?
00:41:18.190 --> 00:41:19.929
I'm like, well, you've never had a recon done.
00:41:20.110 --> 00:41:21.170
They're like, but our current account is doing.
00:41:21.329 --> 00:41:24.050
I'm like, I'm in a QBO file. Like there's never
00:41:24.050 --> 00:41:26.590
been a bank recon done. So they're not doing
00:41:26.590 --> 00:41:28.789
that. And that's, you know, obviously it's a
00:41:28.789 --> 00:41:32.550
self -inflicted wound of the industry. And I'm
00:41:32.550 --> 00:41:34.989
not quite sure how we get past it. And I'm not
00:41:34.989 --> 00:41:37.250
sure if like, you know, slapping a coat of paint
00:41:37.250 --> 00:41:39.650
on it and calling it value pricing is the answer.
00:41:39.809 --> 00:41:43.010
Yeah. Obviously a very popular term and I don't
00:41:43.010 --> 00:41:45.429
really know what it means off the time. Nobody
00:41:45.429 --> 00:41:48.860
does. basically the problem you're talking to,
00:41:48.980 --> 00:41:50.780
right? Like we've got this pricing that nobody
00:41:50.780 --> 00:41:53.039
understands and creates confusion in the market.
00:41:53.340 --> 00:41:55.340
Yeah. And I think it's, you know, we're not doing
00:41:55.340 --> 00:41:57.619
ourselves any favors either, especially if you
00:41:57.619 --> 00:41:59.940
think about the like larger and more traditional
00:41:59.940 --> 00:42:02.880
firms, like we're just kind of doing work because
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:05.340
accountants are incredibly helpful and they want
00:42:05.340 --> 00:42:07.760
to be helpful, but they just like say yes, they
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:10.539
do the work. And then it's like, Oh, by the way,
00:42:10.579 --> 00:42:12.940
the work took us X number of hours. So we're
00:42:12.940 --> 00:42:15.690
going to charge you a triple what. what we initially
00:42:15.690 --> 00:42:17.429
thought it would, and we never had a conversation
00:42:17.429 --> 00:42:19.809
about that along the way. It's not helping in
00:42:19.809 --> 00:42:21.769
our client relationships. Even though we're doing
00:42:21.769 --> 00:42:24.269
good work, we're not setting expectations up
00:42:24.269 --> 00:42:26.289
front. And that's something where, you know,
00:42:26.409 --> 00:42:30.949
if I could share anything that I've learned throughout
00:42:30.949 --> 00:42:33.030
the couple of years I've been running Brightline
00:42:33.030 --> 00:42:36.409
is like clear communication of expectations up
00:42:36.409 --> 00:42:39.199
front is like the biggest game changer. in the
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:41.239
firm, both with your team and with your clients.
00:42:41.460 --> 00:42:43.739
So yeah, I think like we should try to get better
00:42:43.739 --> 00:42:46.260
at that as an industry. It's hard and it's going
00:42:46.260 --> 00:42:49.079
to have a lot of uncomfy conversations, but it's
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:50.519
needed. Like one of the things that's come through
00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:54.480
in this whole conversation so far is clear, transparent,
00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:58.280
candor, strong communication. From when we started
00:42:58.280 --> 00:43:00.659
all the way to this point, it clearly is important
00:43:00.659 --> 00:43:03.380
to you. We've spoken about how people can improve
00:43:03.380 --> 00:43:06.679
it, but how do we get out of our own way? and
00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:09.420
make sure we're having these conversations because
00:43:09.420 --> 00:43:11.880
we know we're had this. We both agree on this.
00:43:12.219 --> 00:43:14.780
It makes a big difference. Yeah, it makes a huge
00:43:14.780 --> 00:43:17.699
difference. And I think like, how do we get out
00:43:17.699 --> 00:43:19.699
of our own way? I don't know, man. I think you
00:43:19.699 --> 00:43:22.000
just have to like do it. I think you can, you
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:24.320
can overthink things and you can plan and you
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:26.880
can try to, well, what if they say this and mitigate
00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:30.199
that and whatever. I think like we should just
00:43:30.199 --> 00:43:32.199
identify, like if anybody's looking for a takeaway
00:43:32.199 --> 00:43:34.900
here, like pick one thing that's giving them
00:43:34.900 --> 00:43:36.920
a bit of anxiety right now and just have the
00:43:36.920 --> 00:43:39.260
conversation like book a time tomorrow just have
00:43:39.260 --> 00:43:41.380
it you don't have to come in super prepared and
00:43:41.380 --> 00:43:44.960
polished just have it and be really clear about
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:47.280
what you need to get from that conversation be
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:49.179
really open with the person you're having it
00:43:49.179 --> 00:43:51.559
with but like get out of your own way by getting
00:43:51.559 --> 00:43:53.840
out of your own way you know as oversimplified
00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:56.460
as that sounds like just just do the damn thing
00:43:56.460 --> 00:43:58.739
oh yeah it's great advice i'd like to think like
00:43:58.739 --> 00:44:00.480
some of the best things in life are going to
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:02.579
be difficult so have the difficult conversation
00:44:02.699 --> 00:44:05.940
Yeah, it's, I mean, it's something I still struggle
00:44:05.940 --> 00:44:08.019
with. Like everybody struggles with having difficult
00:44:08.019 --> 00:44:10.719
conversations. It's, I still shy away from some
00:44:10.719 --> 00:44:13.119
conversations or I still feel like they didn't
00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:15.300
go as well as I wanted them to, or needed them
00:44:15.300 --> 00:44:17.800
to, but you just have to do it and just be really
00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:19.719
upfront with the person you're talking to about,
00:44:19.719 --> 00:44:21.920
you know, what they're doing or what you need
00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:25.019
from them or whatever. Just have the conversation.
00:44:25.079 --> 00:44:28.369
Love that. Mike, you're going through your leadership
00:44:28.369 --> 00:44:30.690
transformation at the moment. You're having to
00:44:30.690 --> 00:44:34.190
adjust from going from eight to 25 people. Give
00:44:34.190 --> 00:44:37.309
us some advice on how we can improve as leaders
00:44:37.309 --> 00:44:40.349
today. Yeah. Well, I do think, you know, obviously
00:44:40.349 --> 00:44:43.809
the clear communication of expectations and like
00:44:43.809 --> 00:44:45.829
over -communicating that is super important.
00:44:45.989 --> 00:44:48.309
I worked with a business coach when I first started
00:44:48.309 --> 00:44:50.630
Brightline. Her name is Carla Caldwell. She does
00:44:50.630 --> 00:44:53.369
a lot of work with ignition and carbon and stuff.
00:44:53.659 --> 00:44:56.079
So shout out to Carla, but she always told us
00:44:56.079 --> 00:44:58.480
clear is kind, which is certainly I think something
00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:02.039
from a book somewhere or other, but it's stuck
00:45:02.039 --> 00:45:04.539
with me forever. Like being really clear and
00:45:04.539 --> 00:45:07.199
upfront about stuff is, is the kindest thing.
00:45:07.380 --> 00:45:09.800
If you think about even like having to have a
00:45:09.800 --> 00:45:12.239
disciplinary conversation or a termination conversation,
00:45:13.019 --> 00:45:14.860
like clear is kind, like don't beat around the
00:45:14.860 --> 00:45:16.639
bush. Just like communicate what you need to
00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:19.429
communicate and be super clear about. your intention
00:45:19.429 --> 00:45:21.530
and your expectations. So that's a really big
00:45:21.530 --> 00:45:24.289
piece of advice. And if people are looking to
00:45:24.289 --> 00:45:27.030
improve or learn a bit more of that, I've, I
00:45:27.030 --> 00:45:29.010
read the book, Radical Candor, again, forget
00:45:29.010 --> 00:45:30.789
who wrote it. Great with book names, terrible
00:45:30.789 --> 00:45:33.369
with author names, but it was a former Google
00:45:33.369 --> 00:45:36.070
exec, I think, wrote that incredible book about
00:45:36.070 --> 00:45:38.670
effectively like how to have a difficult conversation
00:45:38.670 --> 00:45:40.789
without being an asshole. Definitely would recommend
00:45:40.789 --> 00:45:45.190
it. You probably read that one. Yeah, I should
00:45:45.190 --> 00:45:47.010
probably, I'm probably due for a reread now that
00:45:47.010 --> 00:45:48.789
I think about it. The other thing is just learn
00:45:48.789 --> 00:45:51.639
to, learn to say no. Like I think saying no is,
00:45:51.639 --> 00:45:55.340
is an underrated skill. And as accountants and
00:45:55.340 --> 00:45:58.300
people pleasers and people who want to help the
00:45:58.300 --> 00:46:00.599
most number of people in the best way we can,
00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:04.519
sometimes the best way to help somebody is to
00:46:04.519 --> 00:46:07.079
send them to somebody else to help them. I don't
00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:09.420
know who needs to hear that today, but that is
00:46:09.420 --> 00:46:11.760
true. Learn to say no. And the no doesn't have
00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:14.360
to be mean or it doesn't mean that you're not
00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:16.860
helping them. you're just putting them somewhere
00:46:16.860 --> 00:46:18.719
else where they can get better help than what
00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:20.860
you can deliver. And that's fine. You're still
00:46:20.860 --> 00:46:23.420
helping. I love it. Radical Candor was by Kim
00:46:23.420 --> 00:46:26.019
Scott. Be a kick -ass boss without losing your
00:46:26.019 --> 00:46:29.780
humanity. And Clear as Kind was popularized by
00:46:29.780 --> 00:46:32.960
Brene Brown with her. She says, Clear as Kind,
00:46:33.139 --> 00:46:36.440
Unclear as Unkind. So just decided circles around
00:46:36.440 --> 00:46:39.619
that. And it is funny, I could hear the word
00:46:39.619 --> 00:46:42.940
Clear as Kind in Carla's voice as you said it.
00:46:43.090 --> 00:46:45.889
Yep. I've spent some time with Carla, like she,
00:46:45.889 --> 00:46:48.530
she likes that one and I love it. I'm a big proponent
00:46:48.530 --> 00:46:51.170
of kindness. And I think that is, that is important,
00:46:51.170 --> 00:46:53.570
right? If we can be more kind to each other and
00:46:53.570 --> 00:46:55.809
that does start with honesty and good communication,
00:46:56.369 --> 00:46:58.369
I think we can all just really achieve great
00:46:58.369 --> 00:47:00.530
things. Yeah. And I think it, you know, as I'm
00:47:00.530 --> 00:47:02.829
going through this transformation and, and, you
00:47:02.829 --> 00:47:05.250
know, accountant to business owner, to leader,
00:47:05.590 --> 00:47:07.630
that humanity is something that you have to kind
00:47:07.630 --> 00:47:10.230
of ground yourself in. Like, although we are.
00:47:10.820 --> 00:47:13.340
I hate when people say that we're a family here
00:47:13.340 --> 00:47:16.119
or whatever. Like we're a team, but a team is
00:47:16.119 --> 00:47:18.340
made up of humans and our clients are humans
00:47:18.340 --> 00:47:21.920
too. What we do is super intimate and very relationship
00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:24.199
focused. And so like having that humanity at
00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:27.079
the center of what we do is, especially as things
00:47:27.079 --> 00:47:29.079
go more and more towards this AI thing, like
00:47:29.079 --> 00:47:30.900
I think that's something we need to keep top
00:47:30.900 --> 00:47:33.099
of mind as, as leaders is like, we can't lose
00:47:33.099 --> 00:47:35.440
our humanity. There might be a short term win
00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:37.960
with the, you know, like sacrificing that a bit
00:47:37.960 --> 00:47:40.380
for AI, but I think long -term and, and if you
00:47:40.380 --> 00:47:42.139
think sustainably about our businesses, like
00:47:42.139 --> 00:47:44.519
that's, we've got to be humans. I love that.
00:47:44.719 --> 00:47:47.880
And I like to hear about humans and like question
00:47:47.880 --> 00:47:50.380
I like to ask all my guests, Mike is share something
00:47:50.380 --> 00:47:53.260
about just on the personal side, like outside
00:47:53.260 --> 00:47:55.579
of Mike, the accountant, Mike, the business owner,
00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:58.280
Mike, the leader. Who are you? What do you like
00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:01.599
to do? Yeah. I mean, I, I love business, but
00:48:01.599 --> 00:48:04.199
I love, you know, I've got friends who have businesses
00:48:04.199 --> 00:48:05.920
and I love chatting with them about that. I'm
00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:08.849
just a big. nerd when it comes to business and
00:48:08.849 --> 00:48:11.250
professional development. But I guess outside
00:48:11.250 --> 00:48:13.789
of all that, I do love learning. I mean, we talked
00:48:13.789 --> 00:48:16.150
about that at the top of the call with the guitar
00:48:16.150 --> 00:48:18.690
that I sometimes bust out. I'm trying to learn
00:48:18.690 --> 00:48:21.050
that, but I just, I love learning something new
00:48:21.050 --> 00:48:23.550
and I love kind of like absorbing information
00:48:23.550 --> 00:48:26.469
that changes my worldview. And so, you know,
00:48:26.469 --> 00:48:28.170
I've, I've learned to play a couple of instruments.
00:48:28.449 --> 00:48:30.789
I've learned how to speak Spanish and French,
00:48:30.889 --> 00:48:32.909
French, because I live in Montreal and you kind
00:48:32.909 --> 00:48:35.030
of need to know a bit of French, Spanish, because
00:48:35.030 --> 00:48:37.570
I go to Mexico for. two or three months of the
00:48:37.570 --> 00:48:40.090
year. And I just absolutely love that. I've picked
00:48:40.090 --> 00:48:42.969
up different stuff over time. So I've stuck with
00:48:42.969 --> 00:48:45.210
some, some of which I haven't, but yeah, I just
00:48:45.210 --> 00:48:46.929
absolutely love learning stuff. And I know that
00:48:46.929 --> 00:48:49.889
makes me sound like a huge nerd, but that's fine.
00:48:50.070 --> 00:48:52.949
I think I love it. Learning is fantastic. And
00:48:52.949 --> 00:48:55.389
I think it's the way to keep us our brains fresh
00:48:55.389 --> 00:48:58.170
and young and be able to live a long life. So
00:48:58.170 --> 00:49:00.409
yeah, I would say we can take away from you.
00:49:00.670 --> 00:49:02.809
And the big point that I've got from you is just
00:49:02.809 --> 00:49:06.260
keep learning. Yeah. I think it's, it's so important
00:49:06.260 --> 00:49:08.860
both personally and professionally. Like as a
00:49:08.860 --> 00:49:10.920
person, you know, you definitely want to be learning
00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:13.760
and growing and changing, uh, cause you get to
00:49:13.760 --> 00:49:15.559
experience cool new stuff when you do that and
00:49:15.559 --> 00:49:17.900
you get to meet really cool new people, you know,
00:49:18.019 --> 00:49:21.400
by exploring a new hobby or going to a conference
00:49:21.400 --> 00:49:23.780
or, or whatever, right? So yeah, I'm a big fan
00:49:23.780 --> 00:49:25.500
of that. Mike, I've really appreciated your time
00:49:25.500 --> 00:49:28.019
on Proto Conversations today. We'd like to finish
00:49:28.019 --> 00:49:30.179
with the final five. So I have five questions
00:49:30.179 --> 00:49:32.239
for you if you're ready. Okay. Yeah, let's do
00:49:32.239 --> 00:49:34.760
it. What is something you're irrationally competitive
00:49:34.760 --> 00:49:38.139
about? Pub trivia. Nice. I get way too weird
00:49:38.139 --> 00:49:40.079
and competitive about it. You spoken a lot about
00:49:40.079 --> 00:49:42.380
reading today. So do you prefer audio book or
00:49:42.380 --> 00:49:45.039
paper books? Got to be paper. I really can't
00:49:45.039 --> 00:49:47.300
do podcasts. counter integratively and I really
00:49:47.300 --> 00:49:49.719
can't do audio books. I am the exact opposite
00:49:49.719 --> 00:49:52.119
in that one, but. Okay. I fall asleep when I
00:49:52.119 --> 00:49:53.719
read. I think I'm just getting old. I get too
00:49:53.719 --> 00:49:55.699
distracted with audio books and podcasts. Like
00:49:55.699 --> 00:49:58.039
my brain is elsewhere. I need to be like sitting,
00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:00.639
looking at the page. Otherwise my mind is gone.
00:50:00.900 --> 00:50:02.559
What's one piece of technology that makes your
00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:05.030
life easier? Well, I'm sure everybody says AI
00:50:05.030 --> 00:50:07.690
and that certainly is true. I like my Kobo or
00:50:07.690 --> 00:50:11.429
any e -reader. Like it's nice to, um, especially
00:50:11.429 --> 00:50:13.510
as I'm going through, like I'm a big believer
00:50:13.510 --> 00:50:15.530
in reading for professional development. So I
00:50:15.530 --> 00:50:17.510
love being able to like highlight stuff. I'm
00:50:17.510 --> 00:50:19.409
reading business books and French now to practice
00:50:19.409 --> 00:50:21.670
and being able to like highlight words and translate
00:50:21.670 --> 00:50:23.610
them is super helpful. And then come back to
00:50:23.610 --> 00:50:26.250
my notes. So yeah, I'd say e -reader. Mountains
00:50:26.250 --> 00:50:28.760
or ocean. I know somebody who spent 15 years
00:50:28.760 --> 00:50:30.920
in the maritime should say ocean, but I love
00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:32.659
the mountains. Take me back to your childhood.
00:50:32.840 --> 00:50:36.019
What was that one meal that you just loved and
00:50:36.019 --> 00:50:38.559
had to have on a regular basis? Man, I mean,
00:50:38.559 --> 00:50:40.539
I think that's changed from now to childhood.
00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:42.980
But if we're talking about childhood, me, my
00:50:42.980 --> 00:50:46.760
grandma used to make a really delicious chicken
00:50:46.760 --> 00:50:50.789
curry. just had that for lunch today before we
00:50:50.789 --> 00:50:52.829
chatted here. So that's gotta be the one for
00:50:52.829 --> 00:50:54.590
me. Love it. Mike, thank you for your time. I
00:50:54.590 --> 00:50:55.969
appreciate you being on Project Conversations.
00:50:56.269 --> 00:50:57.690
Yeah, thanks so much, Santa. I really enjoyed
00:50:57.690 --> 00:51:00.929
this. And with that, we end another Project Conversations.
00:51:01.389 --> 00:51:03.590
Thank you for joining us in this journey of learning
00:51:03.590 --> 00:51:06.429
and inspiration. Today, we've gained insight
00:51:06.429 --> 00:51:08.369
from our guests and taken another step towards
00:51:08.369 --> 00:51:10.369
understanding the diverse tapestry of leadership
00:51:10.369 --> 00:51:13.190
in business and accounting. Remember, each conversation
00:51:13.190 --> 00:51:15.170
is a step towards the positive transformation
00:51:15.170 --> 00:51:17.730
of business leaders. We hope our discussion has
00:51:17.730 --> 00:51:19.449
given you valuable takeaways to applying your
00:51:19.449 --> 00:51:22.070
own career and life. Don't forget to subscribe
00:51:22.070 --> 00:51:24.329
to Protean Conversations on YouTube and Spotify
00:51:24.329 --> 00:51:26.949
so you never miss an episode. We'd also love
00:51:26.949 --> 00:51:29.130
to hear your thoughts and experiences, so connect
00:51:29.130 --> 00:51:31.610
with me on social media channels. I'm most active
00:51:31.610 --> 00:51:33.590
on LinkedIn and would love you to join the conversation.
00:51:34.250 --> 00:51:36.250
Join us next time for more engaging stories,
00:51:36.730 --> 00:51:39.670
advice and conversations like that. Until then,
00:51:39.909 --> 00:51:42.090
keep striving for excellence, grace and growth.
00:51:42.670 --> 00:51:45.280
Thank you for listening. Be kind. goodbye from
00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:46.019
burning conversations.