“Dear Miss Perkins”: Frances Perkins and Refugees from Nazi Germany

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Hello, everyone, it's Professor Buzzkill, busting myths, taking names. And
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you know, even though we know so much about certain
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historical figures or certain historical events, there's always more to learn.
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And usually even though we know a lot about historical
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figures and historical events, a lot of myths are dragged
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along with those people in those events. So it's just
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so wonderful that we have with us doctor Rebecca Graham,
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whose new book is Dear Miss Perkins, a story of
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Francis Perkins's efforts to aid refugees from Nazi Germany. Doctor Graham,
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thanks so much for coming on the show.
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Thank you so much for inviting me.
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You know, it is amazing. I mean, most historians know
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about Francis Perkins. She broke record in the American government
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in terms of breaking through gender barriers, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera,
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but they don't really know about this. I didn't know
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very much about it. I know vaguely about it. I mean,
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it's just astounding that you have, first of all, a
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labor secretary doing all this work in what is essentially
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foreign affairs.
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I've taught in college classrooms where I ask how many
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people have heard of Francess Perkins, and it's like one
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Who's seen Dirty Dancing where baby is named Francis after
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the first woman in the cabinet. That's a direct quote.
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But yes, in academic history audiences, people have generally heard
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of her, and even that is new. People didn't talk
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about her much between her death in nineteen sixty five
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and when the Labor Department building was named after her
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in nineteen eighty. In two thousand and nine, The Woman
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Behind the New Deal by Kirsten Downey was just such
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a popular book that it led to more attention around
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Francis Perkins. And in that book down He had two
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chapters on Perkins's involvement with the refugee crisis.
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So my book is a book length.
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Treatment of that story. The first one, and the Immigration
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Naturalization Service was in the Department of Labor from nineteen
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thirty three to nineteen forty. Perkins actually created it. It
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was an FDR executive order, but it was her idea
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to combine immigration and naturalization, which were previously separate bureaus,
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because the focus of immigration had been deporting people during
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the nineteen twenties. Basically, any time between the late nineteenth
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century and the beginning of the FDR administration in nineteen
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thirty three, and then in nineteen forty FDR transferred the
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is to the Department of Justice, where it would stay
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until September eleventh, right.
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Right, right, Well, you know, it just astounds me. It's
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always just astounded me about Francis Perkins in that, First
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of all, she's the Labors Secretary in the FDR administration
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that's trying to recover from the Great Depression, where millions
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of people have been thrown out of work. So you
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would think that, you know, this woman has not only
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has her hands full, but has the hardest job in
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the cabinet.
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That was how she got the job was that she
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had run essentially the Labor Department for the State of
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New York, which had had the most extensive put people
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back to work and unemployment insurance programs in the country
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at the state level.
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So that was how she got the job.
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But the Department of Labor when she became Labor Secretary
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was actually the newest cabinet department, and they all lined
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up in order of seniority, and she had the least seniority,
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and that was just kind of fitting at the time
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that the only woman in the room was also the
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person with the cabinet department with the lease seniority.
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Well, let's talk a little bit about her background in
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New York. And of course in New York she's under
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Governor Franklin Roosevelt, who then becomes President thank of Franklin Roosevelt,
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and New York is among the state's hit hardest by
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the Great Depression, especially in terms of job loss. So
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how did she get involved in FDR's first state level cabinet.
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She first worked for the state level cabinet for Governor
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Al Smith, and she worked for him for more years
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than for FDR. She had originally come to New York City,
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I forget the exact year, but in the nineteeneens to
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pursue her masters at Columbia, and then she was out
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of the workforce for a few years while she was
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raising her young daughter, Susannah. But then her husband had
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some serious health problems and she happened to be across
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the street from the Triangle shirtwaist factory fire in nineteen eleven,
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and that was what propelled her to work on workplace
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conditions across the state, which became her job. And then
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she did that for Governor Al Smith, and then you
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probably know there was that whole where Smith wanted Roosevelt
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to come run for governor because he wanted to be
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president in nineteen twenty eight, but Smith lost, Roosevelt won.
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They didn't have a good relationship after that, but their
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industrial Commissioner labor investigator of Francis Perkins maintains good relationships
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with both. So she came to work for FDR via
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Al Smith.
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Yes, it's important to remember Al Smith because he was
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a very big time presidential candidate, first Catholic to run
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for office and things like that. So did FDR then
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sort of learn from Francis Perkins rather than the other
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way around. Rather than FDR barging in and saying, all right, folks,
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I want to do this, this this in terms of
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the workforce. I get the impression that she's the expert
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here and that Franklin Roosevelt is the one who needs
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to be brought up to speak.
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They learned from each other. He was good at asking
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people for advice. She was part of a broader New
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Deal coalition of people that he asked for advice, like
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Harry Hopkins would be another example. But something that is
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special about Francis Perkins is she was more than an
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establishment democrat. She had been involved with the social work field.
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She had been mentored by Florence Kelly forward the end
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of the nineteenth century, and she worked with Jane Adams
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at Hull House literally, so she was part of these
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broader social movements. It was useful when I taught us
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history in a high school setting for four and a
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half years, because there's this direct strand between these events.
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There's the formation of Pull House and the Triangle Shirtwaist
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Factory fire and then the building of the New Deal coalition,
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and Francis Perkins helps us to trace a consistent strand
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of history through her eyes.
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Well, let's remind us, especially those who from other countries.
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First of all, what the Hull House was, and that
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one that what the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire was.
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That's a great point.
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Hull House was a settlement home co founded by social
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worker Jane Adams in Chicago. Basically she was from an
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affluent background where Jane Adams had been educated in England,
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and she saw the British settlement homes and what they
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could do for poor people.
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Single women, knew immigrants who.
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Literally needed a place to go, needed a place to sleep,
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maybe have some education, learn English, and so upper middle class,
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college educated typically women would volunteer thereafter college. So Francis
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Perkins was actually teaching science at I think it was
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called Ferry Hall and nearby Girls School in the Chicago area,
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and this would have been around nineteen oh four nineteen
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oh five. And in Chicago, she volunteered at Hull House
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with Jane Adams, and that was some of her first
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exposure to poor people in immigrant communities. She was not
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from those communities. And then she moved to Philadelphia where
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she continued some similar work, but she stopped teaching, started
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on a full time basis working in social work, and
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then she moved to New York City, which was how
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she ended up at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, one
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of the most influential fires in US history. It was
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a factory full of almost exclusively immigrant women, many of
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them Jewish.
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It happens on a Saturday.
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That's something a lot of people don't realize about the
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Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire. It was most of these women's sabbath,
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but they were working for their lives and a few
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hundred died. And when I say that Francis Perkins was
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across the street, I mean that she watched some people
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fall to their death because fire naturally pushes humans out
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people in that setday. I learned this by reading about
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the Triangle Shirtwaist factory fire. They're more likely to die
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by jumping than from the fire, just because the fire
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is so painful. And they had organized, they had tried
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to go on strike form a union before the fire.
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The employers had not listened to them.
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And one of the many reasons why a lot of
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preventable death happened was that they had gone back in
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to fetch their where they logged their hours, because if
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they didn't log their hours, they couldn't be paid, and
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they were living literally paycheck to paycheck.
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So already, as a young professional is she's seen two
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very very tragic situations. A the condition of the urban
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working poor and also this horrible fire. And to see
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the fire from across the street and see the people
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jumping out of windows and things like that must have
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been horrific. So everyone can understand I think how she
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goes into FDR's presidential administration thinking that there really had
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to be major labor reforms and major reforms to help people,
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to help the urban poor and the poor in general.
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So she works on that. But then very crucially, you
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show she has a weather eye on thirties Germany and
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she's realized that something has to be done there too. Now,
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before I start blabbing on and start telling the story
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that you should tell because you're the expert, let me
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turn it over to how does she first get when
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that things are really really going badly in Germany.
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I won't forget to circle back to how she first
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got wins because it is an interesting connection. But first
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I actually want to connect the labor reforms that we
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just mentioned to the immigration policy because.
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They are connected and chronologically that's more correct, So I
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shouldn't have jumped ahead.
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Yeah, no, that's great.
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She came into the labor department and she had several
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ideas of things she wanted to do. The only one
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that did not happen was universal health care, which obviously
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is a story for later in American history. But she
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wanted unemployment insurance she wanted, which would be the Social
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Security Act of nineteen thirty five. She wanted to legalize
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unions and strikes, which would be the Wagner active nineteen
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thirty five, and then she had a lot of ideas
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about the minimum wage and fair labor practices and those
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would be it be in nineteen thirty eight act, which
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I think is called the Fair Labor Standards Act. And
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what had the Labor Department been doing before nineteen thirty three,
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They had been using their resources to deport people, So
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that was the connection to immigration.
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Bee was not planning to focus on immigration, but on
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her first.
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Day at Labor she wrote that I think five different
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men introduced themselves to her and said and introduced themselves
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as being in charge of immigration policy. So she was like, oh,
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my goodness, this is a humanitarian disaster, and also it's
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not a well organized one. So she had a lot
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on her hands immediately. At the same time, this was
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nineteen thirty three, It was five weeks after Hitler had
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taken power in Germany, and immediately there was a surge
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of applications for immigration from Jewish people from Germany and
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other people who had good reason to want to move
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out of Germany. And the connection, I mean, many Americans
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were following what was happening overseas. But the connection between
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Perkins in Germany was a journalist named Dorothy Thompson who
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was one of the first American journalists. She was actually
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the first American journalist to report from Berlin on what
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was happening in Germany. But Dorothy Thompson was a friend
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of Perkins because she was married to the author Sinclair Lewis,
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who had previously proposed marriage to Francis Perkins when they
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both lived in New York. She didn't see him romantically,
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but they remained friends and that was how she found
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herself like at the same dinner tables in Washington, d C.
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As Dorothy Thompson, who had direct eyewitness accounts from Berlin
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under the Nazis.
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Yeah, it is an amazing thing. We have to remember
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that even at this time, even when the federal government
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is even at that time the thirties, the federal government
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is expanding tremendously, it's still small enough that it matters
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who you meet socially and at who you know through
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other departments center.
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Yes, speaking of people she met socially, Felix Frankforter was
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not on the Supreme Court yet, but he was a
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judge who spent time in DC, and he was one
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of the people she collaborated on initially with ideas to
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help the refugees, same with Julian Mack, who was also
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a federal judge at that time, and they equipped her
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with ideas that she brought to an early cabinet meeting
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in April nineteen thirty three, where she proposed, I don't
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know if you want to get into the archaic legal
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proceedings yet, but she proposed accepting charge bonds on behalf
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of refugees, which was something from the Immigration Act of
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nineteen seventeen. It said that the labor Secretary, it said
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he can accept charge bonds on behalf of refugees who
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otherwise would become public charge or burden the economy. So
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she wanted to do that, And the people who wrote
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the nineteen seventeen Act were not expecting a female cabinet secretary,
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but even more importantly for them, they were not expecting
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a labor secretary who wanted to accept more immigrants, because
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her predecessors had wanted to limit immigration and that was
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a high priority for them.
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Just fascinating, fascinating. So then how do the wins of
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00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:22.759
bad news, bad tidings from Europe start to reach her?
250
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She worked on a child refugees program between nineteen thirty
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four and nineteen forty one. But that was her primary
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involvement with the refugee policy until nineteen thirty eight was
253
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really when more of the American public started paying attention.
254
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But there was a child refugee program that came out
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of her charge bonds efforts. She never was able to
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accept charge bonds in exactly the way that she and
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her colleagues had proposed in nineteen thirty three, but it
258
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led to this child refugee program where most Jewish communities
259
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could do the work on the ground to find homes
260
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for these children, and then they would come in facilitated
261
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mostly through not the Ions actually, but through the Children's
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Bureau in the Labor Department was responsible for maintaining records
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on them. The IONS, of course was also involved, and
264
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there's tons of correspondents in the IONS files. But then
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that was her primary involvement, and she of course had
266
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many other things going on, like those nineteen thirty five
267
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acts that I mentioned. But then nineteen thirty eight is
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the year that my book opens with because there was
269
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a lot going on that year.
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But in November nineteen thirty.
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Eight, that was the Crystal Knox program in Germany and Austria,
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and that sent many German Jewish adults to early concentration camps,
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and it changed a lot of minds of Jewish people
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in Germany where suddenly they wanted to leave more than
275
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they had previously. So that also escalated the refugee crisis.
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Yeah, we tend to forget because people, I think think
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of Crystal Knocked as just a night of breaking shop
278
00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:12.320
windows and things like that. It's not that bad, but
279
00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:17.159
it really is a major dividing line between things getting
280
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increasingly bad and then suddenly turning very horrible. Anyone who's
281
00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:25.200
not paying attention to the Nazis before Crystal Knocked certainly
282
00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:27.399
gets their eyes open by Crystal Locked. And anyone who
283
00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:30.279
continues to apologize for the Nazis after Crystal Locked is
284
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really morally suspect.
285
00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:34.799
And Crystal Knock means knight of broken glass, so we
286
00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:37.639
picture the glass shattering and there are pictures online, but
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that also meant people's businesses, people's means of supporting themselves.
288
00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:45.320
By that point, there were many many jobs that Jewish
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people were not allowed to have in Nazi territory. And
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also just the footage of the synagogues, like that's people's community,
291
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that's what's meaningful to them.
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It was devastating.
293
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So then how does Francis Perkins respond?
294
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And then she came to the next cabinet meeting in
295
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November nineteen thirty eight with several ideas, and one of
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00:17:09.079 --> 00:17:14.200
them FDR actually used immediately, which was to extend the
297
00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:19.759
visitors visas of Germans already in the US. Perkins had
298
00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:23.079
been suggesting that since nineteen thirty three. Was the first
299
00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:25.559
time she mentioned it in the cabinet meeting, but he
300
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:29.359
actually announced that in a press conference in November nineteen
301
00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:32.000
thirty eight, maybe it was early December. By that point,
302
00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:35.079
he said that he could not in good conscience force
303
00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:36.559
them out of the US.
304
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So that was the one that happened.
305
00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:42.759
Immediately, But then she also proposed several ideas that did
306
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:47.119
not happen. Nineteen thirty eight was a time when there
307
00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:50.400
was more interest in the American public about the German
308
00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:54.519
Jewish refugee crisis, so there was more support for expanding
309
00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:58.920
the child refugees program. So she was active in conversations
310
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that led to a bill the following summer called the
311
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Wagner Rogers Bill, and that would have allowed ten thousand
312
00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:11.400
additional German Jewish children in nineteen forty and then again
313
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:14.839
in nineteen forty one, so twenty thousand children totaled. That
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00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:17.559
did not pass Congress. It actually did not even make
315
00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:20.119
it to the floor of Congress for a vote. So
316
00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:21.920
that was one idea that she worked on.
317
00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:26.240
Another one was the idea of settling.
318
00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:29.880
The Jewish refugees in the American colonized territory of Alaska.
319
00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:32.880
That's a whole chapter of my book, and that became
320
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the King Havner Bill the following year in nineteen forty.
321
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So after the US could not allow more children because
322
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it had to come from Congress, because that's where the
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00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:47.039
quota lagus were from. And I should circle back to
324
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the quota laws in a second, but first, in nineteen forty,
325
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the King Havner Bill wanted to settle Jewish refugees in
326
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the colonized territory of Alaska. It had some behind it
327
00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:01.680
in Washington because Secretary harra Icky's in the Department of
328
00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:07.920
Interior wanted to expand economic development in the Alaskan territory
329
00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:11.519
and also to protect it militarily from the ever growing
330
00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:12.599
Japanese Empire.
331
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By that point, we.
332
00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:16.839
Should remind folks that that Alaska doesn't become a state
333
00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:21.720
and therefore subject to these quotas until nineteen forty nine,
334
00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:24.319
So as a territory and or an occupied territory, like
335
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:27.640
you say, the government can kind of fiddle the books,
336
00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:29.599
if you will, if it wants to bring in more
337
00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:33.640
people and shuttle them through Alaska, even though geographically going
338
00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:36.559
from Europe to Alaska is problematic to say the least.
339
00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:38.480
Sorry to interrupt there, No, that's fantastic.
340
00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:42.319
I mean researching that chapter was a constant overlap between
341
00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:47.079
Perkins's humanitarian efforts and then also like violent America perialism.
342
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It was really interesting to learn about that.
343
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:53.039
I should circle back to the quota laws because why
344
00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:55.839
were they trying to add ten thousand children, Why were
345
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they trying to look for colonized territory. It was because
346
00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:02.920
the the United States only allowed a certain amount of
347
00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:07.400
immigrants from every country per year since the immigration active
348
00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:12.119
nineteen twenty four, the Johnson Reed Act, and most countries
349
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in the world there's only one hundred people per year.
350
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I used to say to my high school students, has
351
00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:19.119
fewer people that are in this building right now. So
352
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Western Europe, it was like several thousands. Central Europe it
353
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was fewer. Eastern Europe it was even fewer. And so
354
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those quota waiting lists. By nineteen thirty eight, the waiting
355
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:38.079
list for immigrants from Hungary was twelve years long.
356
00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:41.880
Wow. Again, that's part of the Eastern Europe division.
357
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Yeah.
358
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Yeah, the quota laws were extraordinarily restrictive, and so legislative
359
00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:53.359
efforts like Wagner Rogers and King Haabner were legislation that
360
00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:58.200
came from people in the executive branch who collaborated with Congress.
361
00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:01.920
Perkins was involved in Congress stations around both. Neither of
362
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:06.640
them happened because the quota laws came from people who
363
00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:10.160
thought that the US should restrict immigration, and it continued
364
00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:10.559
to do so.
365
00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:14.079
Yeah, this is an isolation as Congress, after all, FDRs
366
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has to deal with that for most of his time
367
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:19.119
in the presidency, and the backlash to.
368
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.839
The New Deal really found its way into the backlash
369
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against more humanitarian refugee policy. I have a chapter on
370
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:33.079
a resolution to impeach Francis Perkins, and it came from
371
00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:38.559
the longshoreman's strike led by a communist immigrant from Australia
372
00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:43.720
named Harry Bridges. Harry Bridges was not German or Jewish
373
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or a refugee who was a communist immigrant from Australia.
374
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And the Wagner Act had legalized strikes and unions, and
375
00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:55.759
the anti New Dealers both in the US and Congress
376
00:21:55.880 --> 00:22:00.119
were most unhappy with that, and they even though like
377
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.920
her name wasn't even on it, but they really identified
378
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Perkins as the person they wanted to push back on
379
00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:10.519
and even impeach. They attempted to impeach her literally for treason,
380
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that was the charge, because they viewed strike as something
381
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:20.160
that could overthrow capitalism, and they equated overthrowing capitalism with
382
00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:25.559
overthrowing the US government. So the resolution to impeach Perkins
383
00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:30.599
did not succeed because as you just heard, that ridiculous,
384
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:34.119
but it really diminished her political capital. So there's a
385
00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:38.920
huge difference in what she can do politically. From even
386
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:42.680
nineteen thirty four to like nineteen thirty eight, there were
387
00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:48.920
these huge movements building against her and she received a
388
00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:51.119
lot of hate mail, a lot of bad.
389
00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:54.599
Press, and just a lot of challenges that must have
390
00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:55.680
been very frustrating.
391
00:22:56.039 --> 00:22:59.519
Oh yeah, now we can't give people the actual blow
392
00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:01.559
by blow because we don't have enough time, and we
393
00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:03.240
certainly want them to read the whole story in the
394
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:07.599
book because the details matter tremendously. But at what stage
395
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:13.359
does the dear Miss Perkins correspondence thing happen? This is,
396
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:16.079
after all the title of the book, and these are
397
00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:20.640
actually letters written by individual people. This blew my mind right,
398
00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:23.160
which I'll explain more in a minute. But people in
399
00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:27.759
Europe are actually writing to her, not dear mister Roosevelt,
400
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:31.319
dear Miss Perkins, a cabinet member other than brother. This
401
00:23:31.480 --> 00:23:32.039
fascinating me.
402
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:35.880
She was not the only one that received these letters.
403
00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:40.400
They were definitely also writing often to Eleanor Roosevelt, to
404
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:44.640
Henry Morgenthau, anyone that they thought might be a sympathetic ear.
405
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:49.599
They wrote to Roosevelt too sometimes, But those letters to
406
00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:50.960
those other people.
407
00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:52.759
Were not my entry point to the topic.
408
00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:55.839
I saw these letters for the first time in summer
409
00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:58.960
twenty fourteen when I was doing an internship for the
410
00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:03.400
Francis Perkinson her and they are located in the National
411
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:08.200
Archives at College Park, and there are about ten boxes,
412
00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:12.119
and they start at the beginning of the FDR administration
413
00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:15.960
in nineteen thirty three, but they pick up in nineteen
414
00:24:16.039 --> 00:24:19.079
thirty seven, and they really pick up in nineteen thirty eight.
415
00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:24.720
The folders are well organized until nineteen thirty eight, and
416
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:29.039
then nineteen thirty eight, nineteen thirty nine, nineteen forty when
417
00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:33.119
the I ands transfers, the folders are overflowing with letters
418
00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:35.759
like historians say that all the time, and their boxes
419
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:39.599
overflowing like No, these are literally just so many letters.
420
00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:42.359
They're not only from the refugees themselves.
421
00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:46.680
They're often from people in the US who have a
422
00:24:46.759 --> 00:24:50.680
loved one who's a refugee, like for example, Francis Perkins's
423
00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:55.079
dentist whose name was Eugene Wiseman, and he literally writes
424
00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:57.799
to her, I have the pleasure of cleaning your teeth.
425
00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:02.559
And my cousin Andre was deported to a concentration camp
426
00:25:02.599 --> 00:25:06.079
on crystal knots and Andre verity I had to trace
427
00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:09.079
the documents with help from the Holocaust Museum. But he
428
00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:13.559
actually survived in New Zealand, but he could not get
429
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:16.359
into the US, even though Perkins was a dental patient
430
00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:18.039
of his cousin Eugene Wiseman.
431
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.279
Yeah, but that shows how people are making this connection,
432
00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:25.160
you know that, like everybody who can get to her
433
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:29.799
in any way is a conduit for these letters, and
434
00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:30.920
she really.
435
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:37.759
Had limited influence over immigration slots under the quotas, but
436
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:41.519
work visas were a way to get people into the
437
00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.400
country temporarily and then to extend them repeatedly. So she
438
00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:50.920
was really intentionally laid back on visa policy. Laid back
439
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:55.000
is probably not the right word, but she wanted people
440
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:57.359
to be able to stay and to be able to live.
441
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:00.960
I have a whole chapter on which I know you
442
00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:03.440
also have a whole episode on which is the Von
443
00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:07.240
Tratt Family Singers, and they had a mutual contact with her.
444
00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:11.000
They knew a woman named Gertrude Ely who was one
445
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:14.720
of Francis Perkins's best friends. Like there's a portrait of
446
00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:19.359
Gertrude Ely and Francis Perkins's home in Newcastle, Maine. The
447
00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:25.319
von Tratt Family Singers contacted her through Ely, and then
448
00:26:25.519 --> 00:26:29.359
she extended their visas repeatedly until they were able to stay.
449
00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:31.519
Those were some of the Dear Miss Perkins letters.
450
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:34.119
Yeah, they're just astounding, and you go through a lot
451
00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:37.920
of them in detail and show how the letters and
452
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:41.240
also the operation of getting the letters to her and
453
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:44.319
how she then is able to work through the visas.
454
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:47.519
It's astounding, But how does she then, I mean I
455
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:48.880
know this because I read the book, but no one
456
00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:53.319
else will. How does she then take the requests and
457
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:57.519
put them into visa form if you will? How much
458
00:26:57.559 --> 00:27:00.119
of it is the Alaska thing? How much of it
459
00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:02.839
is the labor you know, we need a work force, etc. Etc.
460
00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:05.079
And how much of it is the humanitarian effort?
461
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:10.720
That part is the immigration Naturalization Service. So her commissioner
462
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:14.200
of Immigration until his death in nineteen thirty seven was
463
00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:15.319
Daniel and Mcorbick.
464
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:17.640
They were a power team.
465
00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:22.119
They worked really well together, like she would forward something
466
00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:24.799
to him and they were always on the same page.
467
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:28.599
And then after nineteen thirty seven, James Hofftelling was her
468
00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:33.000
Commissioner of Immigration, and so she would correspond with him,
469
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:36.160
or she would tell someone who worked for her on
470
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:39.279
immigration to extend someone's visa and they would do it.
471
00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:43.440
Other times she would advise them on how to navigate
472
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:46.440
the system. It wasn't easy to navigate, like it just
473
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:49.160
wasn't accessible. People couldn't figure out what to do, so
474
00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:52.839
she would personally write back to them, or she would
475
00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:55.839
have maybe her secretary or someone who worked in the
476
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:58.920
ins right back to them for her and kind of
477
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:03.680
advise them. I mentioned Dorothy Thompson, who was a friend
478
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:06.240
of hers. She was a journalist, but she would also
479
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:10.559
Dorothy Thompson wrote to Perkins on behalf of refugees multiple times.
480
00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:15.160
One time it was someone who she had crossed paths
481
00:28:15.319 --> 00:28:20.039
with in LA and Perkins explained to Dorothy Thompson how
482
00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:24.440
this particular refugee needed to go to Mexico and then
483
00:28:24.519 --> 00:28:27.799
come back with a visa from Mexico, so that person
484
00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:30.559
followed her instructions. So there was really a wide branch
485
00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.960
of things that could happen. But I mentioned James Hoptelling,
486
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:36.839
who was the Commissioner of Immigration for the rest of
487
00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:40.200
the time that the IONS was under Labor and then
488
00:28:41.079 --> 00:28:45.039
when the ions switched to Justice. I actually just saw
489
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:47.799
these records at the FDR Presidential Library.
490
00:28:47.839 --> 00:28:49.240
But basically everyone was.
491
00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:52.319
Like, yeah, he was never really good at the job, right,
492
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:56.799
everyone knew that and Perkins, and Perkins was like, yeah,
493
00:28:56.960 --> 00:28:59.200
we kind of knew he was a legacy appointment because
494
00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:01.480
his wife grew up with FDR or something like that.
495
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:07.799
But again, it's this problem and a constant frustration that
496
00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:12.359
she has to use all these workarounds to get people over.
497
00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:16.240
I mean, you know, and it's deeply unfair. It's deeply unfair.
498
00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:19.759
Like, yeah, in order to have like they had to
499
00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:23.400
have a connection with her with someone else, and even
500
00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:27.200
if they did, that was not an automatic immigration visa.
501
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:31.680
Yeah, it is astounding. Now again, we always try to
502
00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:35.799
say to when again, when we're ever talking about this period,
503
00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:38.720
the thirties and the lead up to the war for Americans,
504
00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:40.960
that you know, there is a strand of kind of
505
00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:46.240
realism in the isolationists standpoint, and they're saying, you know, look,
506
00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:50.799
we can't help solve another European problem, another European war.
507
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:54.400
They have to solve this themselves. But on the other hand,
508
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:58.079
it must have been extremely frustrating for someone like Perkins
509
00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:03.000
who actually sees the humanity Harrian crisis happening, and these
510
00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:06.160
isolationists and congress are thinking, well, it's just a it's
511
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:10.079
just an internal European domestic problem, and we shouldn't get involved.
512
00:30:10.839 --> 00:30:13.440
You know that that sort of thing is something that
513
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:16.960
the United Nations would later sort of partly handle, but
514
00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:19.079
it would it would have driven me nuts and I
515
00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:23.799
would have lost my temper innumerable times with these isolationist congressmen.
516
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:27.279
I just find it amazing that she's able to take
517
00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:31.119
the energy that would be me losing my temper and
518
00:30:31.240 --> 00:30:33.160
turn it into Okay, Now I have to figure out
519
00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:35.839
these workarounds. That's how I'm going to get this done. Sorry,
520
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:39.079
I'm waxing sort of poetic about her abilities.
521
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:39.559
But they are amazing.
522
00:30:39.799 --> 00:30:43.160
You're combining all the interesting strands here. I mean, the
523
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:47.559
isolationist congressman to a large extent represent the American voters,
524
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:50.279
and the American voters also.
525
00:30:50.759 --> 00:30:51.440
Wrote to her.
526
00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:53.480
I mean, I've read her hate hate mail. I've read
527
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:56.039
a FDRs hate mail, like a lot of them. One
528
00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:59.440
person who ended up in the introduction to my book
529
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:02.559
just because I was interesting, wrote to the head of
530
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:05.640
the Children's bureau in the Labor Department who worked with Perkins.
531
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:08.359
It was a woman named Catherine Lenroup. And he writes
532
00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:11.880
that he is a professional rat catcher in Boston. His
533
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:17.640
job is like rodent control, and in alleys he sees
534
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:24.599
children who are orphaned and impoverished and emaciated. And he
535
00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:28.279
is writing that in the context of the Wagner Rogers
536
00:31:28.359 --> 00:31:32.000
bill to let German Jewish children come to the US.
537
00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:36.480
And what struck me so much about this letter was
538
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:40.880
it Garners sympathy for the starving American children during the
539
00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:44.839
Great Depression until it says, ps are you funded by
540
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:46.359
John Buller the rich Jews.
541
00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:48.039
So there was also.
542
00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:53.119
Undercurrents of anti Semitism and xenophobia on bigotry under this isolationism.
543
00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:58.359
But to a large extent, the Congressman represented the American people,
544
00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:02.079
just like today I meant about Congress Shore.
545
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:03.960
And like oh, and by the way, we should tell
546
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:07.400
people that the rat catcher basically says, why are we
547
00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:11.119
trying to help people from halfway around the world when
548
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:15.720
we have these desperately starving and suffering children right here,
549
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:18.200
you know, American children right here that need to be
550
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:22.640
And of course Perkins has presumably answered in her own mind.
551
00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:25.000
Well, we need to do both, which brings me to
552
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:29.279
the other great point you made about borders, because there
553
00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:35.440
is this paradox where she ascended through what was by
554
00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:41.119
all measurements, an extraordinary career, but she was not. I
555
00:32:41.319 --> 00:32:46.079
actually would not describe Francis Perkins as ambitious. She went
556
00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:49.200
to work because her husband could not, and then she
557
00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:54.400
was propelled through all these levels by her care for
558
00:32:54.680 --> 00:32:58.079
people in need, right, and then she gets to the
559
00:32:58.359 --> 00:33:01.440
highest office that she has is held, or that any
560
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:05.240
woman has held in the US government up until that point,
561
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:10.440
and she finds herself limited by borders in a way
562
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:13.359
that she had not when she was working at more
563
00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:17.559
local levels. So she saw, and I think just because
564
00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:21.400
of her personality, she felt the suffering of immigrants and refugees,
565
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:24.559
and she found herself severely limited.
566
00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:27.640
Yeah. So my book is the story of her trying.
567
00:33:28.039 --> 00:33:30.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well even though it's even though
568
00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:33.559
it's trying, and even though it's she's not as successful
569
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:36.319
as she would want it to have been, we have
570
00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:39.200
to I mean, I generally don't do this because I'm
571
00:33:39.319 --> 00:33:43.519
very anti hero warship people, historical figures are very complicated
572
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:46.079
things like that. But in many ways we almost have
573
00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:49.079
to look at Francis Perkins as an American hero and
574
00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:52.359
as in one of the early you know, an early
575
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:55.319
person who would have qualified or for nomination for the
576
00:33:55.400 --> 00:33:58.559
Nobel Peace Prize, at least from the American standpoint, because
577
00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:00.799
she kept trying so hard.
578
00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:03.400
I think I have a healthy distance from her.
579
00:34:03.799 --> 00:34:08.039
I definitely heroified her when I was in college ten
580
00:34:08.119 --> 00:34:12.119
years ago. This was originally my undergraduate thesis. I don't
581
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:15.320
heroify Perkins as much as I did when I was
582
00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:18.400
in college, and this was initially my undergraduate thesis. I mean,
583
00:34:18.440 --> 00:34:21.079
I find her fascinating. I find her to be an
584
00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:24.840
interesting tour guide to all these important themes in the
585
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:26.079
nineteen thirties US.
586
00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:27.639
I mean, really her whole life.
587
00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:30.199
From the eighteen eighties to the nineteen sixties. She is
588
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:34.840
grappling with relevant themes and social forces in American history.
589
00:34:35.320 --> 00:34:39.039
If you're looking for someone to heroify, well, in my research,
590
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:41.679
I liked Dorothy Thompson. Like I just kind of have
591
00:34:41.800 --> 00:34:44.440
a bias in favor of Dorothy Thompson the journalist. I
592
00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:48.039
like her, whereas I wouldn't necessarily say the same. I mean,
593
00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:51.320
I like Princess Perkins. I think she's interesting, but I'm
594
00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:54.639
glad that I had a critical distance from her while
595
00:34:54.760 --> 00:34:55.639
researching and writing.
596
00:34:55.760 --> 00:34:58.320
Oh oh sure, sure, and we all do. And we
597
00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:00.280
all need to need to believe me in some who
598
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:03.920
works on Churchill Studies, you know that's absolutely central.
599
00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:07.239
Oh and then my other favorite is Hannah Arendt, who's
600
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:10.440
somehow my rabbit hole on her in chapter eleven never
601
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:11.360
got edited out.
602
00:35:11.559 --> 00:35:13.400
But like, I just like her.
603
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:17.159
I know that she has some problems too, But Francis
604
00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:20.400
Perkins is an example of someone who works, if you will,
605
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:24.719
heroically for something that doesn't directly benefit her in any way.
606
00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:27.360
This is not going to help her become vice president.
607
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:29.840
I mean, I know that that's not possible anyway at
608
00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:32.519
the time, but this is not gonna, in theory after
609
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:35.000
the war, help her become ambassador to the United Nations
610
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:37.480
or stuff like that. She is doing it for genuine
611
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:38.840
humanitarian reasons.
612
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:42.239
And there were some there were some cabinet secretaries that
613
00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:44.679
went on to become, like you said, vice president or
614
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:48.119
even president. I mean, Herbert Hoover was Secretary of Commerce.
615
00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:50.760
He would have sat on Perkins's side at the table
616
00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:53.039
at cabinet meetings if they were in the same administration.
617
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:57.920
But she had I think something I've realized as I've
618
00:35:58.360 --> 00:36:02.280
thought about Francis Perkins's woman in politics was that she
619
00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:07.000
had so many gender politics to navigate that she actually
620
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:08.119
was political.
621
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:11.960
She was really a political thinker and a political actor.
622
00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:16.280
But she couldn't navigate politics in a way that would
623
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:20.800
prevent let's say, an impeachment hearing, or losing most of
624
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:25.559
her political capital through one instance, because she was busy.
625
00:36:25.800 --> 00:36:26.920
She had other.
626
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:31.360
Social dynamics and bigotry even directed at her just for
627
00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:34.519
being female. Even though she was privileged in so many ways,
628
00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:38.440
she had so many personal politics that must have been
629
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:41.400
so stressful for her, even just the way she had
630
00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:46.199
to carry herself she went into and I mean, by
631
00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:49.239
the time she became Labor Secretary, she was a very
632
00:36:49.400 --> 00:36:52.719
experienced at sitting in rooms with men. She came into
633
00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:57.639
the first meeting the weekend of inauguration telling herself that
634
00:36:57.840 --> 00:36:59.800
she would not speak unless spoken to.
635
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:00.599
Wow.
636
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:04.440
Wow, that's political, yeah, right, because you know, she has
637
00:37:04.519 --> 00:37:06.440
to then continue to work with these people, so she
638
00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:09.639
has to deal with their assumptions and whatever bigotry they
639
00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:12.519
drag into the room with them well before we go.
640
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:15.400
You know, it's impossible to quantify these things, and I
641
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.920
don't like, you know, the sort of batting average interpretation
642
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:21.199
of history, but you know, in terms of the numbers
643
00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:23.920
of people she must have saved, it must be very high.
644
00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:25.960
For an American, you know what I mean. This is
645
00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:29.400
not people from another European country taking people in which
646
00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:31.559
where the numbers are much higher. But for an American,
647
00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:34.119
she must be really one of the few who saved
648
00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:35.239
enormous numbers of people.
649
00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:41.519
She influenced tens of thousands of refugees to find safety
650
00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:44.599
in the US. That number comes from the Holocaust Museum.
651
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:46.960
I'm not a numbers guy, but the number is tens
652
00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:49.800
of thousands, and we can't know the exactly Oh no, yeah, yeah.
653
00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:53.239
But and by the way, the alocoust Museum does fabulous research,
654
00:37:53.639 --> 00:37:57.840
so that's significant. That in itself is significant. Well, you know,
655
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:01.039
this conversation we've had just now is so rich, but
656
00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:04.920
the book Buzzkillers is so much richer. There's so much
657
00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:06.920
more in it. There's so much more detail, there's so
658
00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:11.960
much more virtual context and background. But also explaining how
659
00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:16.000
frankly doing the work and constantly doing the work kept
660
00:38:16.159 --> 00:38:18.840
Francis Perkins. It seems to me going that was the key.
661
00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:22.000
Thank you for having me on, Professor Buzzkill. I've listened
662
00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:25.960
to many episodes over the years. I've probably listened to
663
00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:30.599
the Sounds of Music episode three times. Actually I cited
664
00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:34.760
it in a rabbit Hole that got cut. It's not cited,
665
00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:38.000
but the von Traps do have a chapter in dear
666
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:38.719
Ms Perkins.
667
00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:41.800
Well, there you go, Buzzkillers. There are connections between us
668
00:38:41.880 --> 00:38:44.920
and everybody. All the cool cutting edge people in the
669
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:47.519
history field, so thanks again for coming on the show.
670
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:51.119
Thank you, and please everyone you know what to do.
671
00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:53.119
When you go to professor buzzkill dot com. The book
672
00:38:53.239 --> 00:38:55.639
is there. Please get it, please read it, and we
673
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:57.840
will talk to all of you next week.
674
00:39:01.639 --> 00:39:03.079
Give TESTI