Bold Career Pivots with Misha Rubin

WEBVTT
00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:42.959
Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for Leaders.
00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:45.840
Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world.
00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:52.560
Today, I have Misha Rubin, and he is an executive What's Next strategist.
00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:54.640
So I'm excited to explore that.
00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:57.040
He is a former partner at EY.
00:01:57.040 --> 00:01:59.359
Lots going on in his background.
00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:03.760
You can check out his bio in the show notes for the full bio.
00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:08.719
But Misha, uh, before we jump in, what do listeners need to know about you?
00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:11.919
I know you're sitting in New York right now, which is an awesome place.
00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:15.840
I just told you I was there last week, which I love, love, love the city.
00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:19.199
My daughters, they they are looking forward to next spring.
00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:22.719
We are gonna spend probably three days in the city and see shows.
00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:25.840
But um, what do people need to know about you?
00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:29.840
Listen, I I was a partner at Ernsting Young.
00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:38.159
I spent about 15 years um working with executives from all key top Wall Street firms.
00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:48.560
So I've seen a lot of corporate world and how it functions and how it doesn't, and I've seen uh how to navigate this world for myself.
00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:54.800
I also, you know, hired people, promoted people, uh increased their compensation.
00:02:54.800 --> 00:03:01.599
So I was on all the different parts of equations and seen ins and outs of how corporate world works.
00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:12.879
And I've always thought that leaders, and I know leadership is one of the key topics and context for our conversation, that leaders in organizations have a lot of responsibilities.
00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:24.639
They have to deliver, they have to take care of their people, they have to uh be on the top of the knowledge and the latest informations or regulations or technologies.
00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:26.800
There's a lot of expectations of leaders.
00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:36.879
And very often, leaders themselves are not being taken care of for their careers, for their own decision making, for them to figure out what's next for them.
00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:38.319
Are they in the right spot?
00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:40.240
Are they growing into the right direction?
00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:44.719
So that's the expertise that I would love to bring to your listeners.
00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:45.280
Yes.
00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:48.479
Okay, well, I'm so excited to have this conversation.
00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:56.879
We have not had an episode and specifically on you know what's next for executives, who's helping them think through?
00:03:56.879 --> 00:03:58.800
Who are their thinking partners?
00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:09.840
And so at least I'm kind of thinking of you as like a thinking partner, a coach who can help people really better understand what they even need to be considering when it comes to this space.
00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:12.159
So, what are you seeing out there?
00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:15.599
How are how are you kind of making sense of this space right now?
00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:17.519
What do you see the needs as?
00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:21.519
Well, one of the things that I see that the world is changing.
00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:33.120
And um, and I don't think that's being fully appreciated because uh in some aspects of our economy, um, the change might come slower.
00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:37.040
You know, artificial intelligence is definitely making big steps.
00:04:37.040 --> 00:04:56.319
I don't think people realize how big the change is going to be, and how how actually all our day-to-day and businesses and how corporations work and how careers are designed, that's all is in the process of being completely revamped.
00:04:56.319 --> 00:04:59.360
So we're living in these very exciting times.
00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:01.279
It could be also a little bit scary.
00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:11.439
I would say that in the past, your a status quo career was a little bit like you know, a slow death, but that could actually go on for a while.
00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:23.040
I actually think that we're moving into the times when um some of these slow-paced moving, not being proactive, the price will come much faster.
00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:39.680
So that's why it's you know, I don't want to be alarmist, but at the same time, I want people like, hey, you gotta think about what's next, how you're navigating your career, how you're managing it, how you're preparing yourself for what's next, so you are not left behind.
00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:42.720
Well, I think it's so incredibly important.
00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:56.079
I mean, just even in the couple recent conversations I was in, Misha, I mean, one was listening to a podcast with a CMO, and you know, he said, Yeah, we're short about 10 people, but we've got AI.
00:05:56.079 --> 00:05:59.199
And that was just a very interesting statement.
00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:14.240
And then there was another uh conversation I was in recently, and the individual said, you know, we're basically paying about two staff members in AI subscriptions right now, but but it's completely worth it.
00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:20.480
And so just even statements like this that just those two little kind of wow, that's interesting.
00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:24.000
I hadn't I I think I think you are exactly correct.
00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:27.920
Uh change is afoot and are we relevant?
00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:29.279
Are we on the cutting edge?
00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:31.839
And are we thinking about what's next?
00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:38.720
Are we thinking about and strategizing otherwise, you know, on the cutting edge or the chopping block, so to speak?
00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:40.800
Totally.
00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:51.839
Um, I would say you need to master five things in order to prepare yourself for this career.
00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:58.000
I don't even want to say it's of the future, I'm just I would say career for the modern executive, you know.
00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:05.279
Right now it's happening, and um five things doesn't mean you need to master them all at once.
00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:09.839
You can choose one at a time in terms of based on your circumstances.
00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:16.879
But I think to build uh an amazing career in the time to come, you do need to master all five.
00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:21.120
Number one is you gotta be a master strategist.
00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:30.959
And if you think about any uh company, you know, if if a CEO didn't have a uh strategy for the company, the board would fire them.
00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:31.279
Yes.
00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:39.920
So we are CEOs of our careers and of our lives, and somehow we are tolerating not having a strategy for our career.
00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:54.319
And strategy means, you know, having a vision, understanding where you want to end up, understanding where the opportunities are, understanding, like even in the industry where you're in, where it's heading, you know, do you think there is a future there, or is there something else you want to do?
00:07:54.319 --> 00:08:03.759
So there's strategy that would encompass a lot of things, including your inner aspirations, what type of lifestyle you want to lead, for instance, in the next 10 years.
00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:08.639
And it should include the market conditions and the current world that we're living in.
00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:10.160
And that's all part of the strategy.
00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:25.920
So without having that, it's actually very hard to make any decent decisions for anything, I would say, in life, but especially in career, and one of the big mistakes that people have been making over decades is making a lot of circumstantial career decisions.
00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:31.839
And one of the reasons when you make circumstantial decisions, when you don't have a good strategy and vision of where you're heading.
00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:32.879
So that's number one.
00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:33.440
Okay.
00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:38.799
Number two, you gotta be a pro fast tracker.
00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:40.320
And here's what I mean.
00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:58.720
So, what I mean, but when you're ending up in an organization, any organization, you gotta know how to navigate organization, how to build relationships, how to create your personal brand within organization, how to identify nonlinear opportunities.
00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:07.039
I'll give you an example, a client of mine, um, this is AI story a little bit, because he came to me and he was stuck and a little depressed.
00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:13.440
And he's like managing director in a bank, so just doing really well, but kind of really not happy where he was.
00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:17.840
And, you know, we were looking at outside opportunity, inside opportunity.
00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:24.639
But part of it, you gotta be keen on and be able to realize that opportunities that are in front of you.
00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:27.840
So why and where there are opportunities?
00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:36.960
Either you need to get closer to where business making money, that's where opportunities are, or you need to get closer, another dimension would be strategic initiatives.
00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:39.840
That's where organizations invest money and resources.
00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:50.799
So at that time, he wasn't an AI expert, but he was known for the person that if you give him something new, he'll figure out how to do it better than most other people.
00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:51.440
Nice.
00:09:51.440 --> 00:10:02.799
And that time AI became a thing, and he suddenly became AI lead, a partner with technology for the whole big financial department.
00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:06.559
Yep, and that created completely different opportunities for him.
00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:11.600
Now, that's what I mean by fast tracking, because the slow lane is gone.
00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:24.480
If you are in a slow lane, or I call it railroad promotion track, where you're waiting for your boss to get fired or retire or move on, that's a slow track, that's not a great place to be nowadays.
00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:24.799
Yep.
00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:26.720
Okay, so that's the second one, right?
00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:32.559
Yes, the third one, you gotta become an expert reinventor.
00:10:32.559 --> 00:10:33.120
Okay.
00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:46.080
What I mean that given how fast everything is moving, including the technology and including the uh environment, you gotta know how to reinvent yourself.
00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:53.840
Meaning that you have certain skills, you have certain experiences, you have certain abilities, capacities, aspirations.
00:10:53.840 --> 00:11:00.159
You should be able to repackage them and close the gap and move into different roles, different industries.
00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:18.480
And that's a very important skill that nowadays will just become more important because you will see, we will see some industries will collapse, we will see that some roles will disappear, and the people that have capacity to take and repackage themselves and move, put them in different positions will be the one that succeeds.
00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:27.120
100% and the okay, so the fourth one, you gotta be a strategic opportunist.
00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:27.759
Okay.
00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:36.639
This is a very particular skill of being able to see the opportunities and to see the right ones for you.
00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:37.279
Yes.
00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:42.240
And you kind of need everything, you need all the pieces, you need to be strategic, so you need to have a strategy.
00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:46.960
You might need to know how to fast track and identify opportunities within your organization.
00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:55.440
You might be able to reinvent, but it's almost like a whole different lens of things in terms of moving your career forward.
00:11:55.440 --> 00:12:03.360
And that's like if you're looking, for instance, to make more money, or if you're looking, for instance, to have much bigger impact, you gotta be strategic opportunist.
00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:08.879
So you identify these opportunities that give you uh uh possibility to do these things.
00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:09.360
Yes.
00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:22.799
And the last but not the least, this is, and I and I'm still articulating the name of it, but let's call it hmm mindset slash your slash your energy energy field slash your nervous system.
00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:32.000
Okay, because it combines all these kind of soft things that people everybody talks about, but nobody knows how to put a finger on.
00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:44.799
Because if you think about your nervous system, is has a capacity for you know for interacting with an organization, deal with unknown, deal with fear.
00:12:44.799 --> 00:13:03.279
So it will be a limiting factor in your growth, and you and your nervous system is lives within your energetic field, and you can feel energy, like you can think about asking boss to give you a 50% raise, and you can feel the energy or fear or discomfort coming in.
00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:10.320
So those are very real things that you can feel, and they're actually part of your broader consciousness that you operate.
00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:17.519
So, and then inside of that, you will also see your mindset and your belief system that also lives there.
00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:21.360
And if, for instance, you don't see what's possible for you, right?
00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:26.240
If you have a limitation on your personal possibility, that will have a limit.
00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:40.159
If, for instance, you um have a low self-worth, so your own evaluation of your worth and your potential, that will put a lid on your opportunities.
00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:48.399
If you don't have enough agency to advocate yourself and pursue things that you don't, that will put a limitation of you.
00:13:48.399 --> 00:14:05.840
So, this these all things live in a paradigm of your mindset, your nervous system and energy, and you know, and an energetic circle, but they all pretty much will create kind of a backdrop of everything that will happen to you.
00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:21.360
And I would say, in terms of there are two key qualities that will have you survive in any economy and in any environment nowadays, and those are being nimble and bold.
00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:39.279
So, in this new career paradigm that we're entering, just being competent is not enough because all the knowledge now, you know, people used to get PhDs and you know, go study in law school, and the knowledge used to be very valuable, and it's still valuable in certain areas.
00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:51.360
But now the other thing we need to understand with AI, a lot of knowledge is easily accessible, that it's available to you on demand, even if you don't have a background in it or you don't know what it is.
00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:57.600
So I think that's a very profound change when whatever it is you know is becoming less valuable.
00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:06.720
It's whatever you can create, whatever you can interpret, whatever you can maybe even feel or sense, because there is a limitation to AI systems.
00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:13.440
They they operate in very particular paradigms and models, and they have certain limitations, how they think.
00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:22.559
So that's where being nimble and bold will serve you in terms of finding opportunities and figure out how to move forward.
00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:27.200
Yeah, there's so much good here, so much good here.
00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:35.519
So I I I have like 17 things going through my head, and so I I love love.
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:38.480
Good thing I have a nimble and bold mindset.
00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:42.799
So I can I'm just I just okay, I gotta be nimble and bold to prepare.
00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:44.720
What's incoming?
00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:46.080
Oh man.
00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:51.440
Well, can I just repeat the five things just so that they kind of land with the listener?
00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:51.600
Yeah.
00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:55.200
So number one is your strategy, you know, that's so important.
00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:59.120
And and I always think don't try to address all of them, just pick one, you know.
00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:04.000
So strategy would be all always like most obvious for most people.
00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:09.759
Number two, becoming a master fast tracker, knowing how to navigate organizations, yeah.
00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:17.519
Number three, being a professional reinventor, and number four, being strategic opportunist, right?
00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:20.399
Identifying opportunities and being able to pursue them.
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:30.159
And number five, this is your kind of the soft part, your mindset, your nervous system, your energy field, and how you develop it to meet the needs of the future.
00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:31.679
Now I'm ready for your questions.
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:32.159
Yeah.
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:35.519
Well, and then and then, of course, you are nimble and bold.
00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:47.440
I mean, you are well, I think for some listeners right now, to your point, you know, this could feel large, but I want to tell a little bit of a story.
00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:53.440
And I I think probably about three years ago, I was a I was a professor of management at a university.
00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:57.200
It'd be like Fordham in your neck in your neck of the woods, a Jesuit institution.
00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:02.000
And professor of management, and I just started paying attention to my energy.
00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:04.319
I was a little less excited to go to class.
00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:10.559
I wasn't feeling as energetic, just naturally energetic about the work.
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:13.279
I I was feeling a little bit bored.
00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:19.599
I was getting a little more easily agitated by the normal workings of organizational life.
00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:23.119
I'd been there for at that time probably 15 years.
00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:29.039
So the first step for me was just paying really close attention to kind of that energy.
00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:32.559
It was like, huh, hmm, interesting.
00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:36.960
And then, you know, I tapped some of my thinking partners.
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:44.559
I have a therapist, I have a mentor, my wife, some other individuals that I really respect their opinions.
00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:47.599
And I just started having some conversations.
00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:58.079
And, you know, having a partner like you, having an individual who can coach some of those conversations, who can help someone gain clarity.
00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:05.599
And I just spoke with a friend who's maybe like three years behind me, but is just kind of starting to feel some of those inklings themselves.
00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:14.640
And, you know, for me, that was kind of the first step of even beginning to develop that strategy.
00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:16.960
It was, okay, here's where I am.
00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:24.960
And then as I got more and more clear, I could start to make some decisions, like, oh, okay, let's let's financially ensure that we're in the right space.
00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:38.000
So we made some adjustments to finances and just started slowly moving some pieces into place so that if there was a decision, there were some barriers that were no longer as big a concern.
00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:38.720
Right.
00:18:38.960 --> 00:19:22.799
But this whole, you know, strategist, I I mean, I love all of these because I may not necessarily know where I want to go, but having someone like you and having an expert to help guide some of those conversations, help connect some dots, help me make sense of the opportunities, I think it's invaluable because as you, I know a lot of people who they're they feel stuck, they feel like they're a prisoner, they don't have options, and they uh may not make the bold decision to live into a better version of themselves or the next version of themselves or the next kind of chapter of their career.
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:37.759
But strategist, pro-fast tracker, reinventor, opportunist, strategic opportunist, and then you know, your mindset, kind of that operating system, your energy.
00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:40.079
It's hard to hide your energy.
00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:42.799
It's hard to hide that, hard to fake that.
00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:45.759
I just I absolutely love it.
00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:46.960
I absolutely love it.
00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:50.799
But for like where you started, kind of where am I headed?
00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:51.920
What's north?
00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:57.119
And I might not know that it's exactly north, but I what's the direction I'm moving in?
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:08.160
When you're when you're helping someone like I was in that state, kind of gain sense of even beginning to think about strategy, talk about that.
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:10.319
I'm really, really interested in kind of that phase.
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:15.200
I imagine you get some clients where they're like, I don't know, I'm not sure.
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.880
I just kind of know that I'm not feeling it's not, you know what I mean?
00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:19.519
Does that make sense?
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:20.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:27.119
First, I want to address what you started about to you, because I think number one, you gotta be conscious of your energetic field.
00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:27.839
Yes, right.
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:35.519
That's what you said, and I think a lot of people, and nowadays when I talk about energetic field, I'm not talking about some woo-woo things.
00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:46.240
I'm telling you, you feel it, you feel when things are off, you feel when you don't want to go to work, when you um don't feel fulfilled.
00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:54.000
You know, there's all these very clear, and then your energy level goes down, and you output and input.
00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:57.359
In the literature, it's called emotional labor.
00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:09.519
So this is an extreme example, but you might have a prostitute or you might have a server in a restaurant, they have to pretend that they're enjoying because authentically, that's not really where I am authentically.
00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:11.920
So you have to quote unquote act.
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:19.200
I I had to turn it on more, pretend the enthusiasm, the excitement, the energy.
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.400
And I could feel that, and I knew it wasn't authentic.
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:29.200
And for some people, they've been leading for this for so long that they still absorb it into their identity.
00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:39.039
So I think if there is, and I'm thinking about people who are listening to this right now, that number one thing tune into your energy field and see where you are.
00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:41.039
You excited about life?
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:43.920
Are you making the type of difference you want to be making?
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:46.319
You know, are you are you proud of your life?
00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:47.359
Do you feel fulfilled?
00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:48.640
Those are great questions.
00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:58.240
And I think sometimes we resign ourselves that life just has to be like in a very particular box, and we uh stop dreaming.
00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:06.480
So I think that's kind of to me a wake-up call to everybody who is not feeling 100%, don't wait.
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:17.920
Because I all I know that if you wondering whether what's figuring out what's next, whether it's the right time for this right now, my answer is always like you should have started a year ago.
00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:25.279
If you're wondering about this, then you should have so you're always better off starting when you're in a great spot.
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:32.400
In fact, if you're doing amazingly well, this is your perfect time to plot where you want to head.
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:40.079
And then, of course, people have circumstances and life happens, and sometimes we have to do it in not great circumstances.
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:42.880
But if you have great circumstances, perfect timing.
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:48.000
Anyway, so your question was about how so how do you figure out the strategy, right?
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.720
Yeah, and I would say there is like a bunch of ingredients.
00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:53.759
I I think about it as like I don't know, maybe a soup.
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:57.839
You know, I'm I love to cook, so I have a soup analogy.
00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:03.440
So, but think about what would be the ingredients of figuring out your strategy.
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:07.119
So, number one would be I call it you plus 10.
00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:09.119
So it would be Scott plus 10.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:12.480
Envisioning life 10 years from now.
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:18.079
Yeah, let's let's look at it happened, whatever it is you want, it occurred.
00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:19.599
Who is that person?
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:24.720
Like where they are, what motivates them, how did they make it there?
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:27.599
That's an example of a North Star.
00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:36.079
That and for some people it could look like a very particular goal, for some people it could be blurry, for some it might take a while to get there.
00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:49.279
But engaging in this exercise of looking at you plus 10 is an amazing way to kind of look at the direction of your life and see where currently are takes you there.
00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:56.799
Or you and the other thing about a great thing about what I what I say creating a vision, because vision is not a goal.
00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:07.039
I don't want to think, I don't want to mix those two concepts because what's great about vision, you can always adjust it as you move closer to your vision, might you might change your mind, you might have more or you might adjust it.
00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:16.640
So to me, it's not like a one-time exercise, it's it's it's a forever exercise where you always can recalibrate where you're going and adjust your steps, right?
00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:18.400
So that's one piece of equation.
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:24.319
The second piece of equation, I would look at you and your criteria.
00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:33.119
And those criteria, I think about an iceberg here, because some of the criteria could be like, I want to make that much money, I want to work in that type of a company.
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:39.839
There are some things that live on its surface and some things that everybody talks about, but then there are things that are hidden from you.
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:43.759
So there are a lot of successful people that are miserable, and how do I know?
00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:46.000
You know, I was one of them, you know.
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:52.799
So just because you're meeting some of the surface parts of the iceberg doesn't mean that you're meeting your inner needs.
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:58.720
So there are things that actually bring you meaning and fulfillment, there are things that bring you joy.
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:00.559
It's important to investigate.
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:15.920
There's a value system that you actually developed when you were a child that is guiding you, but because it's not articulated for people and not um not articulated in language and hidden from their view.
00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:20.079
Very often people say, I know what I don't want, but I don't know what I want.
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:20.880
Yes.
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:29.119
And and um, so that could be like another set of exercises, really understand what are my criteria for what's next for me.
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:30.799
Yes, that's another piece.
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:41.680
Yes, the third thing, and one of the and this goes back to my theory that people don't regret decisions, people regret how they arrived to their decisions.
00:25:41.680 --> 00:26:03.920
And one of the reasons people uh regret their decisions is because they haven't considered all of their options, and this is very important exercise to do this exploration and say, okay, I know where I'm heading, I know that some of my criteria, but there could be a lot of actually different pathways there and a lot of steps that could take me there.
00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:08.960
Let's explore variety of them, let's explore actually really deeply and widely.
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:11.599
And this is where a lot of fear kicks in.
00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:20.160
Is that people think if they put something on a sheet of paper, they commit to doing something, but in reality, they just really need to explore, right?
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:21.039
Yep, yeah.
00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:27.680
Then another piece of strategy could be looking at external world and seeing where do I think the opportunities are?
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:37.599
Where do I think the place where I am, your organization, your role, your your function, your industry, where do you think they're heading?
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:39.119
Is there an opportunity there?
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:43.680
Do we think is do you are you planning to stay there for the next decade?
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:46.480
Or this is a you just transition to something else.
00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:48.000
Those are very important.
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:55.039
You maybe want to look where you want to live geographically, or you want to decide is it a large company or a small company?
00:26:55.039 --> 00:27:05.279
So this is you gotta look at this macro view, and then if you start mixing all these things together, that you will find things that overlap.
00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:19.920
You get the misha soup, it's a misha soup, and it's you then condense it, and usually you will get to like um, and I do this what you know, I help my clients make all types of moves, some of them are radical, yeah.
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:22.480
You know, and that's how we arrived to some of their ideas.
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:24.079
I'll I'll give you an example.
00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:41.359
You know, a client of mine was this like a big top shot lawyer on Wall Street, making a lot of money, you know, had a big team, was also a mom of three, working really hard, you know, scrambling for time, always trust.
00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:49.759
You know, when she came to me and like we looked at, for instance, what is her criteria, you know, in her heart, she was a humanitarian.
00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:50.480
Wow.
00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:56.400
And what she really wanted to do is also have more time with her kids, you know.
00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:00.880
So we designed a leap for her where she would make less money by design.
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:03.359
It wasn't a coincidence, but it was a very conscious choice.
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:08.640
But she ended up being a general counsel in this very innovative foundation.
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:13.519
In the future, what she saw for herself running her own nonprofit.
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:21.440
So we aligned all these different pieces and explored all these ideas to get to the things that work for her life.
00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:27.599
Yeah, but I love I love that use of the word design, right?
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:39.839
There was there's forethought, there's like there's knowledge, there's there's intentional choice when it comes to design, and you're helping her design what that can look like.
00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:42.240
I absolutely love the use of that word.
00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:46.240
But that's really in the source of the work.
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:51.680
That's where you can make very conscious choices, very thought-through choices.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:29:00.000
The other thing what stops people a lot in living a great life is the fear of making changes.
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:04.880
Very much normal for humans to be afraid of what you don't know.
00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:21.599
So if you don't, if I tell you that you got a change and you don't know what it is, and you don't know whether you qualify it, whether you will make enough money, whether you'll be able to support your family, whether your future will be the way you want it, the less the more you don't know, the scary it is.
00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:38.160
Once you start going through this design type of an exercise, when you start putting things on the paper and all the pieces of the puzzle and looking at them, then you get to a final piece of the puzzles that are actually very realistic.
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:42.480
And you can evaluate their risk, your readiness for them, the gaps that you have.
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:57.920
And what will happen that you will still have fear, but it will be a fraction of the fear when you deal with something completely unknown versus a very practical idea that you arrive to that you investigating and seeing whether that's the right leap.
00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:03.440
And what that allows people to make very well thought through decisions.
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:08.079
And what is a good decision is the one that stands the test of time.
00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:11.440
And as I said, people don't regret decision.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:12.799
You know, I'll give you an example.
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:15.839
I just went to this conference and I stayed in a hotel.
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:20.319
And as soon as I arrived at that hotel, I said, that's a wrong hotel.
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:22.480
And I immediately went back.
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:24.400
It's like, how did I choose that hotel?
00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:26.000
You know, how did I make this?
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:29.440
That was my initial, because we all want to learn, right?
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:32.400
So we always go back to the decision-making process.
00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:37.680
And what we see in the decision-making process in relation to career, you haven't considered all your options.
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:40.720
You were not clear about where you want to take your life.
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:48.319
You you had fear and a lot of other things that, in a way, so it's always goes back to the decision-making process.
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:50.400
So that's where you want to improve.
00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:54.559
If you want to have a great career and a great life, make better decisions.
00:30:55.839 --> 00:31:04.160
Well, and I I I mean, this is kind of where I want to start beginning to wind down the conversation, but let's talk a little bit about time.
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:16.079
I imagine you have some clients who, upon some of the initial inklings that they want to be more intentional, they want to be more strategic.
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:28.319
Um, they're a strategist, they know they need to do that, whether they're going to stay in the organization and plot their course forward, um, or whether they know they want to maybe make a transition like the example you shared.
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:37.920
I imagine some clients of yours are proactive about this conversation and invest in conversations with you because it's a type of an investment.
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:39.039
It really is.
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:46.880
Um, and I and then I imagine you come across some clients where they've been laid off and it's an emergency.
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:47.920
Yes.
00:31:47.920 --> 00:32:07.920
Talk about those two scenarios where you have the individual who is is a little bit more playing the chess match and and looking forward, whether again, internal or making a jump, and you have time to work with that individual to design this, and that individual who's in the different situation.
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:09.759
What talk about those two scenarios?
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:14.960
So that's why I will repeat what I said before because this is exactly what comes to the point.
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:18.079
Plot plot your future when you're in a strong position.
00:32:18.079 --> 00:32:25.119
Yes, you have many more options and you have many more possibilities, and you can think much straighter.
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:31.759
Yes, listen, when people get laid off and they're concerned about feeding their families, then you know what?
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:33.039
Forget about the future.
00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:39.119
Go figure out how you'll feed your family and give yourself room because sometimes we need to do what we need to do.
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:45.839
I think the my philosophy is um how to connect both.
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:52.160
You know, the sky is where our dreams live, is their highest aspiration lives.
00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:56.640
This is where our soul resides and joy and all these things.
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:58.720
And then, but then there is earth, right?
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:06.079
So just talking about the sky thing and dreaming and fantasizing not going to bring us a great life.
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:08.240
We have to bring this on earth.
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:12.799
Now, on earth, that means you need practical and pragmatic.
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:21.920
Some people have a hard time leaving the sky, some people have a hard time leaving the earth, but the the truth is someplace in the middle, right?
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:26.000
So the way I work with my clients, I try to meet them where they are.
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:38.079
And sometimes when you have family to feed and you lost your job, you're really on the ground, you're on the earth, and you need to deal with earthy matters on terms of how do I structure my resume, how who do I talk to?
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:40.480
And I help people to deal with that.
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:47.519
And I try to bring some sky to that to to to the point that it's relevant and it serves them.
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:51.680
Uh, or sometimes it's not really the right time to think about the sky.
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:54.000
Yeah, it's the time to be on earth.
00:33:54.000 --> 00:34:02.319
But in my philosophy, my goal is always to bring the sky and the earth together, right?
00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:11.199
So that's I think where the magic happens, when you can be aspirational and dreamy and bring it into reality and have an amazing life.
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:11.840
Yeah.
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:32.639
Well, and I I I imagine when it's when it's someone's been laid off and they're kind of in that earth, it becomes more it can be, I imagine, become more important about finding that next job than really potentially living into the best new version of you.
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:48.400
Uh for me, that that proactive approach where you can um, as you said, when you're in a position of strength, doing that strategy, doing the strategy then, that is um, it's invaluable.
00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:59.360
And I think the people who invest in that with people like you, that's invaluable because as we talked about in the very, very beginning, there's a lot of change afoot.
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:10.480
And are we staying close to that and staying on the cutting edge and orienting and driving our future versus having that be decided for us?
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:19.199
And that's why I mean, a word came to mind nimble, bold, reinventor, you know, do strategic opportunist.
00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:20.320
Do you have some hustle?
00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:32.159
And each of us have to be hustling a little bit right now to ensure that we are moving in the right direction towards where things are headed, versus getting kind of swept up in it.
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:37.199
And um, you know, anything else that you want to say before we begin to wind down our time together?
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:39.760
Or before we wind down our time, I should say.
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:40.639
Sure.
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:48.159
I I just want to leave people where, you know, when there is change, it's always the time for opportunity.
00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:59.840
So we need not forget sometimes life could kick us, you know, and we will access this world from change from the bottom, and sometimes we access it from the top, you know.
00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:01.119
But what do we need to forget?
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:02.719
The opportunities are there.
00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:10.400
I also think about our careers sometimes is the best practice for our spiritual development and our growth.
00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:17.840
So there's there's just a lot in this life to taste and experience and be bold and nimble.
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:19.199
Love it.
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:19.760
I love it.
00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:24.320
I'm gonna call this episode Earth, Sky, and Soup.
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:29.360
I don't know whom that will attract, but you know.
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:37.519
Okay, so I always close out the episode just by asking guests what they've been reading, streaming, what's caught your attention in recent times.
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:43.840
Uh, it could be something you've been listening to, but what might interest listeners in just 30 seconds or less.
00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:51.199
Yeah, so one of my favorite books that I can never stop recommending is Byron Katie, uh loving what is.
00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:55.360
Byron Katie is like an amazing, prolific teacher.
00:36:55.360 --> 00:37:01.599
And she developed a methodology that helps you in it the most simple ways question your thoughts in reality.
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:11.679
And that's actually what we need right now: questioning our thoughts in reality, questioning our disempowering thoughts, questioning our thoughts about the future.
00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:15.440
That's one of my always recommended books on the list.
00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:16.320
Oh, I love it.
00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:16.719
Okay.
00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:18.239
Loving what is.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:18.880
I got it.
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:19.679
I got it.
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:22.000
Misha, thank you so much for your time today.
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:23.679
I really, really appreciate you.
00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:25.280
Appreciate your wisdom.
00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:27.360
Thank you for sharing it with listeners.
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:29.280
And until next time, be well.
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:29.760
Thank you.
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:31.119
It's my pleasure.
00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:36.800
Okay, before we get to my summary of that episode, I have a special guest, and this is Dr.
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:38.559
Marcy Levy Shankman.
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:45.360
And we have been colleagues, co-authors, friends since probably like 2006, back in the day, back in 06.
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:49.280
She is helping with ILA's dialogue lab.
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:56.960
And so, Marcy, tell listeners a little bit about this opportunity and how they can get involved, how they can get engaged.
00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:00.719
New Orleans in January sounds pretty good to me.
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:02.480
Tell us a little bit more.
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:07.199
So, Scott, thanks for asking me to talk a little bit about the dialogue lab.
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:09.360
This is a really exciting experience.
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:11.360
It's only offered every other year.
00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:13.679
We're going to be in New Orleans, as you said.
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:20.320
So, this three-day dialogue lab, which is going to be in New Orleans, is focused on dialogue as a form of leadership.
00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:25.440
So that means we're not going to have panels, we're not going to have workshops, we're not going to have presentations.
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:28.800
What we're going to have is true deep engagement.
00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:35.840
So individuals will sponsor inquiry sessions, and those individuals are the participants themselves.
00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:42.880
And if you're interested in attending the dialogue lab, you can come and participate as a full-fledged member of the community.
00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:47.360
This is a full-on, co-created learning community.
00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:53.840
And if you want to bump up your level of engagement, then you can propose a topic to discuss.
00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:56.400
And the proposal is simply a question.
00:38:56.400 --> 00:38:58.880
And that's what we call our inquiry sessions.
00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:07.199
We're also going to take advantage of being in New Orleans, which means we're going to have this experience grounded in music, food, and civic life.
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:11.199
And we'll have opportunities to engage with members of the New Orleans community.
00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:14.800
So we think this is the right time for this gathering.
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:20.239
Dialogue's needed in this time of polarization, of complexity, and of disconnection.
00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:24.719
And the dialogue lab is uh an antidote of sorts to that.
00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:35.280
We want people to come who are interested in expressing their curiosity, who have courage to ask deep questions, practice deep listening, express their vulnerability.
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:37.519
Expertise is not a requirement.
00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:39.039
A growth mindset is.
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:46.079
So we're really excited to invite your listeners to apply to participate.
00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:53.119
The gathering is about three days, as I mentioned earlier, January 30th to February 1st of 2026.
00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:58.000
And all who are interested in leadership are invited to attend.
00:39:58.320 --> 00:39:58.719
Awesome.
00:39:58.719 --> 00:40:03.920
And I what I love in there is your you mentioned the opportunity to practice.
00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:14.400
And we can practice listening and practice engaging and practice discernment and truly being present and mindful.
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:15.280
Absolutely love it.
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:19.199
So for listeners, there is all kinds of information in the show notes.
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:22.000
So please feel free to check that out there.
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:28.559
And you know what, Marcy, thank you so much for being a part of the leadership team that's putting this on.
00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:30.800
And thanks so much for stopping by today.
00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:32.000
I hope it goes awesome.
00:40:32.239 --> 00:40:33.360
Thanks, Scott.
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:46.159
My personal sense is that there's going to be a lot of disruption uh primarily among white-collar workers in the next five to seven years.
00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:47.679
Sooner than that.
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:59.440
People like Misha are out there and serving as guides, helping people even begin to think about transitions, think about what's next, think about how to stay relevant.
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:06.320
And I think, as you've heard me say before, having those thinking partners is worth its weight in gold.
00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:11.199
As Wayne Gretzky said, skate where the puck is going.
00:41:11.199 --> 00:41:13.840
Are you seeing around the corners?
00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:18.159
And having people like Misha in your corner can be a game changer.
00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:20.239
That's the practical wisdom for me.
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:22.320
As always, thanks for checking in.
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:23.119
Take care.
00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:23.920
Be well.