Leslie Capps: Hey, hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Powerful on Purpose, where we talk to predominantly women, but sometimes we invite a few good men into our circle. But people who are doing cool stuff out in the world, using their story that they found a solution and said, wait a minute, I could help other people, right? So you know the people we talk to here are on big missions and That is true of today's guest as well. So I'd like to introduce you to Wilma Kinsman, which right off the bat is super cool last name, right? And she is a recovering Amish, intriguing there, an RN certified Christ-centered trauma coach. And one of her favorite sayings is life gives you poop. You can always find a pearl if you just put your boots on and go digging for it. You know this is gonna be a fun conversation. Welcome, Wilma.
Wilma Kinsman: Thank you, Leslie, for having me.
Leslie Capps: Yeah, absolutely. Cause we got all sorts of stuff in there that makes me go, I need to know more about that. And yeah,
Wilma Kinsman: Yeah.
Leslie Capps: I always say you gotta throw a lot of poop on the wall and that way I don't have to put boots on, right? But I do have to clean it up, so yeah. Well,
Wilma Kinsman: That that's true. This is true.
Leslie Capps: I always love to start with what's the story and we know you have one that led you to do what you're doing now in business.
Wilma Kinsman: Well, so growing up Amish, I always felt oppressed. I mean we weren't allowed to achieve hardly anything. Like we were supposed to stay in fact I didn't get to go beyond eighth grade. So they wanted to keep us in the community and just work in the woodworking shops, which I did, but they want to keep you close. They don't want you to get educated. They don't want you to leave the Amish. Okay. Well, part of my story, and I I did write a book. It's called Dancing on the Dumpster. It's I my pen name is Willie J. You can find it on Amazon. But it's the story of my life. And what really you know, a lot of times in life there's a pivotal moment, right? Well, when I was twelve I was actually going to a public school because my dad, thank goodness, was tight with his money, and he didn't want us to go to the private Amish school. So I was in public school and I was pretty smart. I guess I still am, I don't know. But they say I am, but sometimes doesn't feel like it. But anyway, so I was in the public school and I won the spelling bee in school. I was in eighth grade. I won the spelling bee. It was 12 years old. And then I won the county. So this was kind of a big deal. We were in a small county in Illinois. And so I won and I started studying these big words I couldn't even pronounce, you know. And I don't know how many weeks it was into that process where I knew I was going. I don't know how far away I was from going. But I was in school normal day and the teacher calls me out into what we used to call the code hall. I don't think they have that anymore, but anyway, called me out into
Leslie Capps: Ha ha ha.
Wilma Kinsman: the code hall, and he looked like someone had died, and he said, Your mom called and I was like he said Well she called and said that you can't go to the spelling bee because you're going to be on TV. And I looked at him and I said, can she do that? Because yeah, she's your mom, she can do that. And that was the day that I decided I would never be Amish. Because I I couldn't fathom taking an achievement away from my child. I mean here I wanted to be in theater, I couldn't because I was Amish. I wanted to play basketball and I couldn't because I was Amish. And here I am. I finally get an achievement. So that that was where I changed. And the other thing that really changed was up until then my family had always told me I was too sensitive. And because I would cry a lot and I would ask questions and it was a very dysfunctional home where my dad would yell and threaten to kill people. He was actually a loan shark to the Amish.
Leslie Capps: Hello.
Wilma Kinsman: It was odd he would charge more than the bank because they couldn't get a loan at the bank, and then he threatened to kill everyone. And we never had a very calm dinner time. That was the time that dad had our attention. And so I still find myself now when I eat, like trying to eat fast, because I wanted to get away from the dinner table, right? So
Leslie Capps: Sure.
Wilma Kinsman: I digressed to what was I saying? ba basically I realized that everything they had said about me was probably not true because I couldn't make an excuse for them with this the spelling bee. They took an achievement away. I couldn't say that was my fault at that point. So now I couldn't make an excuse for their behavior. And I was just I mean, talk about upset in the brain. So If what you believe about something in your left hemisphere and what you feel about something in your right hemisphere do not match, I call that upset in the brain. It's cognitive dissonance, so I couldn't make sense out of this anymore. And so that led then to I ran away that night. to my friend's house and cut my hair off real short like it is now. And I had it down to my butt. I could sit on it. So anything to get away from them. But then I went back and actually left then at seventeen. So then I went through a few divorces and just a lot of things happened. But as time went on, I met Jesus. He's my savior. I I was also spiritually abused in the church. Like they didn't know what to do with me. When I had emotional issues, they said, Wilma, if you really wanted to be better, you could. But you don't want to. So I went through that feeling like maybe Jesus was not trauma informed. But Jesus knows about our brains and what the trauma does to our brains. He doesn't shame us. when we get triggered. And of course, I still get triggered sometimes. And so the the information helped me turn the corner and that ended up allowing me to become a nurse. you know, I went to eighth grade, but then I had to get my GED and go to college. And I became a nurse. And but I I was working with this Christian counselor that really Didn't know what they were doing. They were using the Bible, which is good. but we need to have a holistic approach or we will shame people when their brains are not functioning properly. So they worked with me for two years and he said, Wilma, you're not getting better. You're getting worse. I can't help you anymore. This was in 2001. So they sent me to a psychologist, bless her. Bless their heart for sending me to the right place. Dr. James Wilder. So they sent me out to California. And Dr. Wilder gave me the information about the brain that I still use today and still use when I'm doing trauma coaching one-on-one or in the the course I created, I talk a lot about the neuroscience, the brain and how that affects us, the nervous system. We don't realize that our brain, our nervous system is like Like your alarm system in your house. Okay. I call it the the fancy word for it is amygdala but it I call it the guard shack, like your security guard. If something is dangerous, it will alert you and your heart will start racing, you'll feel a little sweaty because it's automatic. Okay, so when the amygdala finds something dangerous, like men with black hair. My dad had black hair. So my amygdala still thinks that men with black hair are dangerous. But now, since I've grown and learned my right orbital prefrontal cortex is now or able to override that belief and say, Wilma, you're not little anymore. You're not in that situation anymore. You don't have to live out of fear anymore. But my nervous system will still kick on when I see a man with black hair. It's just gonna
Leslie Capps: Right.
Wilma Kinsman: happen. And what'll happen in the Mennonite Amish, sometimes in the church when they don't understand that, they say you don't have enough faith or there's something wrong with you. You're not a Christian if you haven't put your past behind you. There's all this jargon that's very shameful. I love Jesus with all my heart. And I go to church. But there are some very damaging people in the church. So I'm sorry
Leslie Capps: Ops.
Wilma Kinsman: for those of you who've been hurt by them.
Leslie Capps: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a great point that we don't talk about enough, right? That it absolutely can be a saving grace and it can also keep people in a prison, if you will, right? Because we wanna believe this and yet it's damaging to us and there's that contradiction. And how do we make peace with that?
Wilma Kinsman: Yes. So I went out to see Dr. Wilder, which he happens to be a Christian, but he also understands the brain. So he takes what he calls neurotheology. He takes the brain and theology and and we're made to have joy. So what he taught me is he said, Wilma, you don't have a big enough joy center, which is the right orbital prefrontal cortex. That's your control center of your brain. Said your capacity, that joy strength is not big enough to pick up the things that are happening to you. And then when you do pick it up, you don't have a way back. So the return to joy circuits is really what we refer to as regulation. Okay. So if there's six big emotions: there's fear, there's rage, there's hopeless despair, shame, disgust. I always miss one. I don't remember. Did I say fear? Anyway, there's six emotions that you can have. And if your parents weren't glad to be with you in all of those emotions, you did not develop a way back. So if you get angry or someone else gets angry, you can get lost out on that trail and not find your way back. So that's what he told me. He said, Welma, you don't have the joy strength or the return to joy. I said, Well, what do I do? Well, you gotta find people who are glad to be with you in all your emotions. And then eventually, after thousands of times, you develop new neuropathways. So We can change. The neuroplasticity, which is a fancy word for change in our brain, it can change. So there is hope, even though at that point I could hardly handle I mean, if you were to equate it to going to lift weights, I could probably lift one pound. But now I've grown and I can lift a lot more trauma or anything that happens to me. So when trauma happens, it's if your capacity is to pick up five pounds and your trauma is a six, it's going to overwhelm you. And if no one is with you, that's traumatic for you. So it's different for all of us.
Leslie Capps: I'm kind of curious, what was it that the traditional the psychologist and everyone said was wrong with you?
Wilma Kinsman: So, I was believing lies, but that I was dissociative. I had dissociated all my memories. So as one by one we were dealing with them, I became more and more dysregulated. Because I didn't
Leslie Capps: Sure. Right.
Wilma Kinsman: have the capacity. I had blocked out all those things for a reason. Which is why when I'm working with people, I'm very sensitive to the fact that we want to do it in God's timing, because you don't want something to come up before it's time. And
Leslie Capps: Sure.
Wilma Kinsman: we want the presence of God to go with us and that we want Jesus to enter into the safe place with you if you're in pain. So Our nervous system needs to feel safe. If you're working out of the front of your brain, I'm going to protect you, Leslie, from me. Because when I get triggered or I'm having a bad day, I don't want to yell at you. But if I go to the back of my brain, I'm acting like an animal. And I'm gonna be a predator, I'm gonna say, Leslie, I don't like that shirt. Just because I'm having a bad day. So you're either a protector or a predator. So if you work out of the front of your brain, you're going to be more relational, you're going to act like yourself. If you can even I didn't even have a sense of self back then. That's that's a sad thing. I didn't really
Leslie Capps: Yeah, I I imagine right and that's not I'm guessing that helps support that system, right? To not have a sense of self. You have more of a sense of the community versus self, right?
Wilma Kinsman: Well, you learn to listen to what they said about you. Right? So, like for example, when I was probably six or so, I had this doll that I loved. And my brother held it up above my head and punched its face until the head fell off. And my mom and my sister are in the kitchen and they're laughing. And I said I was very upset. And they're like, Wilma, it's just a doll. So, Wilma, you're just too sensitive was the message, right? Okay. And when I told that story to a counselor, they're like, Wilma, you weren't the problem. wasn't and then it kind of upsets you. If you believe you deserved that treatment and that I was just too sensitive, that's easier than believing that they were not kind to me.
Leslie Capps: Absolutely. Well and in a kid, right, we can't sort out that, right? It has to be when we're adults and somebody says that and you think, yeah, but I couldn't at that age figure out those nuances.
Wilma Kinsman: Right. So I listened to what they I listened to what they told me about me. And then it took a long time when I came back from seeing Doctor Wilder. I what I said was God in heaven, what you say in your word is that you will never leave me or forsake me. You are bigger than any of these people on earth. So you will come down here and you will be with me. And he was. I walked through a lot of stuff by myself with just that knowledge of what Wilder told me, I believed it and I thought, Okay, I have a underdeveloped brain, I'm not crazy. So if I had not believed that, I would have gone on thinking I was the problem. But I
Leslie Capps: Right.
Wilma Kinsman: wasn't really.
Leslie Capps: Well, and it's not only that acknowledgement, but I love too that he gave you permission to say, you can retrain your brain, right?
Wilma Kinsman: Yes, yes. And I did find a few people who understood the concept. So I would call them and I say all I need you to do is be glad to be with me. I don't need you to fix me. I don't need you to give me advice. Just be glad to be with me because that actually gives you new pathways. So if if if Leslie your brain is able to know who you are in shame and I bring a shameful circumstance to you. And you're just glad to be with me. You're showing me the path back. So I like Peter Levine's definition of trauma. He says trauma is a pain or a grief that happens in the absence of an empathetic witness.
Leslie Capps: Right. Yeah, that's super powerful. Because you're right. It's trauma depending on who's looking at it. Right. And if we
Wilma Kinsman: Yes.
Leslie Capps: can make it, I don't want to say normal, but if we can make it okay and still love and respect that person, that truly
Wilma Kinsman: Yeah.
Leslie Capps: is a gift.
Wilma Kinsman: Yeah. Yeah. And I forgave all the abusers of my past because obviously I guess it's not obvious to a lot of people, but to me, I don't ever want to hate anyone or be bitter towards them. It just ruins my soul. Like it's gonna make my body sick if I feel that towards other people. They had their pain. They had their reasons and like my mom sadly and I don't even remember this memory because I washed it out. if you have a memory that's too painful, cortisol will come in and wash it out. Okay. My mom happened to tell me yeah, we came home one day from getting ready for your sister's wedding and you said your brother did something sexual to you. And I said, Well what'd you do? Well I don't know I didn't know what was I supposed to do. And I said, Did you leave me with him that night again? She said, Yes. And I knew I was having some body memories that I had no picture for. And when she told me that I immediately knew what it was. So could I hold on to that like how could a mother I I can't imagine doing that. But My mom didn't know any better, is. but later, this happened probably in 2018 when my dad was dying. She said, Yeah, I heard you wrote a book, and I heard you said I didn't do anything when you were being abused. I said, Well, did you? So that came up. I didn't want it to come up, but I felt heavy about it, and so the next day I said, Mom. Look, I want you to know I forgive you for not doing anything. And she went like this. She's like, I don't know why I didn't. sometimes where they're at in their life they can't protect you and so there's no need for me To hold on to that.
Leslie Capps: Right, absolutely.
Wilma Kinsman: not gonna help her if I hold it over her head. She's in her eighties now. I mean, I wouldn't have brought it up, but it came up. I have a sense of self now. I still get triggered though. I still I sometimes at work they have these bright lights, and it my nervous system thinks I'm being raped. I have to put a a hat on, I have to care for myself. Instead of shaming myself and saying, now Wilma, get over it. You're not being raped. Well, I know I'm not being raped, but my nervous system, for some reason, those bright lights start to make me feel like I'm being invaded and violated.
Leslie Capps: Sure. Yeah. Absolutely.
Wilma Kinsman: So I wanna listen to
Leslie Capps: And now that's really what you're helping others do, right? Recognize these signs, let go of the shaming, and figure
Wilma Kinsman: Yes.
Leslie Capps: out a way really to work with your body and listen to it as
Wilma Kinsman: Yeah.
Leslie Capps: well as help it.
Wilma Kinsman: Yeah, the holistic approach of you know, I call it Trauma Healing with Jesus, and I'm a Christ centered trauma coach. so you can find me on WilmaKinsman dot com. but what I try to do is look at the holistic approach, okay? We want to look at our spirit If there is evil involved, we want to, you know, ask the Lord to show us that. We want to think about our belief system, which is in our left hemisphere in our library. We want to think about our right hemisphere, which is community and attachment, bonding, that can control things. we want to think about our nervous system and our body. So we want to
Leslie Capps: Okay.
Wilma Kinsman: look at all of it. our goal in trauma coaching is to be who God made us to be. And oftentimes fear has driven us. And we now want to be driven out of desire and love. What do I want? What do I prefer? Well, if you're in the back of your brain just trying to survive, you never know what you prefer. When's when Wilder asks me what do you prefer I went Like I I had no clue because I was so used to just watch what's going on. Make sure you stay out of danger. So it's a defensive way to live. Instead of living now I live from the inside out. What do I want? Who am I? What's the purpose here? Not just to defend myself from danger, but I mean I kinda had to do that as a child because there was a lot of danger.
Leslie Capps: Sure, Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I know you had a free gift for people. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Wilma Kinsman: Yes. if you go to WillMakinsman.com, you scroll all the way to the bottom, it says there's a button that says sign up for my email list and get a free video. That's That's just one grounding exercise that I created. which is a it's an exercise where I use prayer, I use singing, because your right hemisphere really gets a better message through singing. So if if you need to get a message, a song will get to your right hemisphere, to your emotions better. So I use singing, prayer, and then just focusing on being glad to be with yourself and where you are.
Leslie Capps: are there any last either Wilma isms or words of wisdom you want to share with
Wilma Kinsman: Wow Well
Leslie Capps: the audience?
Wilma Kinsman: I've always liked the pearl and the poop thing, you know, it's
Leslie Capps: Right.
Wilma Kinsman: life will give you poop but you just have to put your boots on and go digging for it. The other thing I used to have written in my garage it was it's not what happens to you but how you respond. So i if you have a lot of trauma, you can change. it feels sometimes like you can't but you can change. There is hope because God made our brains to change. if I could magically take everyone's shame away I would but
Leslie Capps: Hmm. Wow, what a place the world would be, right? If we didn't have that particular emotion, actually. Very interesting. but
Wilma Kinsman: Yeah. Yeah.
Leslie Capps: but yeah, you're right. I love this idea and part of why I wanted to have this conversation, right? Was that we can change it. And
Wilma Kinsman: Yes.
Leslie Capps: there's resources now. I think it's a beautiful time to be living because there's so many opportunities that we're becoming aware of. And I didn't know Dr. Wilder. And now we've exposed a whole nother set of people to his and your work.
Wilma Kinsman: There's so many people out there now that are trauma informed. Yeah.
Leslie Capps: Yep, absolutely. I think even with the most normal of childhoods, we all walk away with some kind of trauma.
Wilma Kinsman: Yes. And that's why we should never compare our traumas. Because what's trauma to you is trauma to you. You were overwhelmed and you were alone. And you still need and deserve a empathetic witness to listen and to value.
Leslie Capps: Right. Absolutely. Yeah, love that. That's a great place to end because as you can tell, folks, we could go on. Yeah.
Wilma Kinsman: we could.
Leslie Capps: So it's been a joy and a delight, Wilma, to have you on.
Wilma Kinsman: thank you so much for having me.
Leslie Capps: Absolutely, yeah. And everybody else, be sure and subscribe because you don't want to miss more powerful conversations like we just had with Wilma, How can we change our own perception of our feelings and create more joy. Hold on to that. Let's come back to joy and create much more joy in our lives and the world. catch you on
Wilma Kinsman: Yeah. I love that.
Leslie Capps: the other side.
Wilma Kinsman: Thank you, Leslie, for having me.
Leslie Capps: Yeah, absolutely. Cause we got all sorts of stuff in there that makes me go, I need to know more about that. And yeah,
Wilma Kinsman: Yeah.
Leslie Capps: I always say you gotta throw a lot of poop on the wall and that way I don't have to put boots on, right? But I do have to clean it up, so yeah. Well,
Wilma Kinsman: That that's true. This is true.
Leslie Capps: I always love to start with what's the story and we know you have one that led you to do what you're doing now in business.
Wilma Kinsman: Well, so growing up Amish, I always felt oppressed. I mean we weren't allowed to achieve hardly anything. Like we were supposed to stay in fact I didn't get to go beyond eighth grade. So they wanted to keep us in the community and just work in the woodworking shops, which I did, but they want to keep you close. They don't want you to get educated. They don't want you to leave the Amish. Okay. Well, part of my story, and I I did write a book. It's called Dancing on the Dumpster. It's I my pen name is Willie J. You can find it on Amazon. But it's the story of my life. And what really you know, a lot of times in life there's a pivotal moment, right? Well, when I was twelve I was actually going to a public school because my dad, thank goodness, was tight with his money, and he didn't want us to go to the private Amish school. So I was in public school and I was pretty smart. I guess I still am, I don't know. But they say I am, but sometimes doesn't feel like it. But anyway, so I was in the public school and I won the spelling bee in school. I was in eighth grade. I won the spelling bee. It was 12 years old. And then I won the county. So this was kind of a big deal. We were in a small county in Illinois. And so I won and I started studying these big words I couldn't even pronounce, you know. And I don't know how many weeks it was into that process where I knew I was going. I don't know how far away I was from going. But I was in school normal day and the teacher calls me out into what we used to call the code hall. I don't think they have that anymore, but anyway, called me out into
Leslie Capps: Ha ha ha.
Wilma Kinsman: the code hall, and he looked like someone had died, and he said, Your mom called and I was like he said Well she called and said that you can't go to the spelling bee because you're going to be on TV. And I looked at him and I said, can she do that? Because yeah, she's your mom, she can do that. And that was the day that I decided I would never be Amish. Because I I couldn't fathom taking an achievement away from my child. I mean here I wanted to be in theater, I couldn't because I was Amish. I wanted to play basketball and I couldn't because I was Amish. And here I am. I finally get an achievement. So that that was where I changed. And the other thing that really changed was up until then my family had always told me I was too sensitive. And because I would cry a lot and I would ask questions and it was a very dysfunctional home where my dad would yell and threaten to kill people. He was actually a loan shark to the Amish.
Leslie Capps: Hello.
Wilma Kinsman: It was odd he would charge more than the bank because they couldn't get a loan at the bank, and then he threatened to kill everyone. And we never had a very calm dinner time. That was the time that dad had our attention. And so I still find myself now when I eat, like trying to eat fast, because I wanted to get away from the dinner table, right? So
Leslie Capps: Sure.
Wilma Kinsman: I digressed to what was I saying? ba basically I realized that everything they had said about me was probably not true because I couldn't make an excuse for them with this the spelling bee. They took an achievement away. I couldn't say that was my fault at that point. So now I couldn't make an excuse for their behavior. And I was just I mean, talk about upset in the brain. So If what you believe about something in your left hemisphere and what you feel about something in your right hemisphere do not match, I call that upset in the brain. It's cognitive dissonance, so I couldn't make sense out of this anymore. And so that led then to I ran away that night. to my friend's house and cut my hair off real short like it is now. And I had it down to my butt. I could sit on it. So anything to get away from them. But then I went back and actually left then at seventeen. So then I went through a few divorces and just a lot of things happened. But as time went on, I met Jesus. He's my savior. I I was also spiritually abused in the church. Like they didn't know what to do with me. When I had emotional issues, they said, Wilma, if you really wanted to be better, you could. But you don't want to. So I went through that feeling like maybe Jesus was not trauma informed. But Jesus knows about our brains and what the trauma does to our brains. He doesn't shame us. when we get triggered. And of course, I still get triggered sometimes. And so the the information helped me turn the corner and that ended up allowing me to become a nurse. you know, I went to eighth grade, but then I had to get my GED and go to college. And I became a nurse. And but I I was working with this Christian counselor that really Didn't know what they were doing. They were using the Bible, which is good. but we need to have a holistic approach or we will shame people when their brains are not functioning properly. So they worked with me for two years and he said, Wilma, you're not getting better. You're getting worse. I can't help you anymore. This was in 2001. So they sent me to a psychologist, bless her. Bless their heart for sending me to the right place. Dr. James Wilder. So they sent me out to California. And Dr. Wilder gave me the information about the brain that I still use today and still use when I'm doing trauma coaching one-on-one or in the the course I created, I talk a lot about the neuroscience, the brain and how that affects us, the nervous system. We don't realize that our brain, our nervous system is like Like your alarm system in your house. Okay. I call it the the fancy word for it is amygdala but it I call it the guard shack, like your security guard. If something is dangerous, it will alert you and your heart will start racing, you'll feel a little sweaty because it's automatic. Okay, so when the amygdala finds something dangerous, like men with black hair. My dad had black hair. So my amygdala still thinks that men with black hair are dangerous. But now, since I've grown and learned my right orbital prefrontal cortex is now or able to override that belief and say, Wilma, you're not little anymore. You're not in that situation anymore. You don't have to live out of fear anymore. But my nervous system will still kick on when I see a man with black hair. It's just gonna
Leslie Capps: Right.
Wilma Kinsman: happen. And what'll happen in the Mennonite Amish, sometimes in the church when they don't understand that, they say you don't have enough faith or there's something wrong with you. You're not a Christian if you haven't put your past behind you. There's all this jargon that's very shameful. I love Jesus with all my heart. And I go to church. But there are some very damaging people in the church. So I'm sorry
Leslie Capps: Ops.
Wilma Kinsman: for those of you who've been hurt by them.
Leslie Capps: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a great point that we don't talk about enough, right? That it absolutely can be a saving grace and it can also keep people in a prison, if you will, right? Because we wanna believe this and yet it's damaging to us and there's that contradiction. And how do we make peace with that?
Wilma Kinsman: Yes. So I went out to see Dr. Wilder, which he happens to be a Christian, but he also understands the brain. So he takes what he calls neurotheology. He takes the brain and theology and and we're made to have joy. So what he taught me is he said, Wilma, you don't have a big enough joy center, which is the right orbital prefrontal cortex. That's your control center of your brain. Said your capacity, that joy strength is not big enough to pick up the things that are happening to you. And then when you do pick it up, you don't have a way back. So the return to joy circuits is really what we refer to as regulation. Okay. So if there's six big emotions: there's fear, there's rage, there's hopeless despair, shame, disgust. I always miss one. I don't remember. Did I say fear? Anyway, there's six emotions that you can have. And if your parents weren't glad to be with you in all of those emotions, you did not develop a way back. So if you get angry or someone else gets angry, you can get lost out on that trail and not find your way back. So that's what he told me. He said, Welma, you don't have the joy strength or the return to joy. I said, Well, what do I do? Well, you gotta find people who are glad to be with you in all your emotions. And then eventually, after thousands of times, you develop new neuropathways. So We can change. The neuroplasticity, which is a fancy word for change in our brain, it can change. So there is hope, even though at that point I could hardly handle I mean, if you were to equate it to going to lift weights, I could probably lift one pound. But now I've grown and I can lift a lot more trauma or anything that happens to me. So when trauma happens, it's if your capacity is to pick up five pounds and your trauma is a six, it's going to overwhelm you. And if no one is with you, that's traumatic for you. So it's different for all of us.
Leslie Capps: I'm kind of curious, what was it that the traditional the psychologist and everyone said was wrong with you?
Wilma Kinsman: So, I was believing lies, but that I was dissociative. I had dissociated all my memories. So as one by one we were dealing with them, I became more and more dysregulated. Because I didn't
Leslie Capps: Sure. Right.
Wilma Kinsman: have the capacity. I had blocked out all those things for a reason. Which is why when I'm working with people, I'm very sensitive to the fact that we want to do it in God's timing, because you don't want something to come up before it's time. And
Leslie Capps: Sure.
Wilma Kinsman: we want the presence of God to go with us and that we want Jesus to enter into the safe place with you if you're in pain. So Our nervous system needs to feel safe. If you're working out of the front of your brain, I'm going to protect you, Leslie, from me. Because when I get triggered or I'm having a bad day, I don't want to yell at you. But if I go to the back of my brain, I'm acting like an animal. And I'm gonna be a predator, I'm gonna say, Leslie, I don't like that shirt. Just because I'm having a bad day. So you're either a protector or a predator. So if you work out of the front of your brain, you're going to be more relational, you're going to act like yourself. If you can even I didn't even have a sense of self back then. That's that's a sad thing. I didn't really
Leslie Capps: Yeah, I I imagine right and that's not I'm guessing that helps support that system, right? To not have a sense of self. You have more of a sense of the community versus self, right?
Wilma Kinsman: Well, you learn to listen to what they said about you. Right? So, like for example, when I was probably six or so, I had this doll that I loved. And my brother held it up above my head and punched its face until the head fell off. And my mom and my sister are in the kitchen and they're laughing. And I said I was very upset. And they're like, Wilma, it's just a doll. So, Wilma, you're just too sensitive was the message, right? Okay. And when I told that story to a counselor, they're like, Wilma, you weren't the problem. wasn't and then it kind of upsets you. If you believe you deserved that treatment and that I was just too sensitive, that's easier than believing that they were not kind to me.
Leslie Capps: Absolutely. Well and in a kid, right, we can't sort out that, right? It has to be when we're adults and somebody says that and you think, yeah, but I couldn't at that age figure out those nuances.
Wilma Kinsman: Right. So I listened to what they I listened to what they told me about me. And then it took a long time when I came back from seeing Doctor Wilder. I what I said was God in heaven, what you say in your word is that you will never leave me or forsake me. You are bigger than any of these people on earth. So you will come down here and you will be with me. And he was. I walked through a lot of stuff by myself with just that knowledge of what Wilder told me, I believed it and I thought, Okay, I have a underdeveloped brain, I'm not crazy. So if I had not believed that, I would have gone on thinking I was the problem. But I
Leslie Capps: Right.
Wilma Kinsman: wasn't really.
Leslie Capps: Well, and it's not only that acknowledgement, but I love too that he gave you permission to say, you can retrain your brain, right?
Wilma Kinsman: Yes, yes. And I did find a few people who understood the concept. So I would call them and I say all I need you to do is be glad to be with me. I don't need you to fix me. I don't need you to give me advice. Just be glad to be with me because that actually gives you new pathways. So if if if Leslie your brain is able to know who you are in shame and I bring a shameful circumstance to you. And you're just glad to be with me. You're showing me the path back. So I like Peter Levine's definition of trauma. He says trauma is a pain or a grief that happens in the absence of an empathetic witness.
Leslie Capps: Right. Yeah, that's super powerful. Because you're right. It's trauma depending on who's looking at it. Right. And if we
Wilma Kinsman: Yes.
Leslie Capps: can make it, I don't want to say normal, but if we can make it okay and still love and respect that person, that truly
Wilma Kinsman: Yeah.
Leslie Capps: is a gift.
Wilma Kinsman: Yeah. Yeah. And I forgave all the abusers of my past because obviously I guess it's not obvious to a lot of people, but to me, I don't ever want to hate anyone or be bitter towards them. It just ruins my soul. Like it's gonna make my body sick if I feel that towards other people. They had their pain. They had their reasons and like my mom sadly and I don't even remember this memory because I washed it out. if you have a memory that's too painful, cortisol will come in and wash it out. Okay. My mom happened to tell me yeah, we came home one day from getting ready for your sister's wedding and you said your brother did something sexual to you. And I said, Well what'd you do? Well I don't know I didn't know what was I supposed to do. And I said, Did you leave me with him that night again? She said, Yes. And I knew I was having some body memories that I had no picture for. And when she told me that I immediately knew what it was. So could I hold on to that like how could a mother I I can't imagine doing that. But My mom didn't know any better, is. but later, this happened probably in 2018 when my dad was dying. She said, Yeah, I heard you wrote a book, and I heard you said I didn't do anything when you were being abused. I said, Well, did you? So that came up. I didn't want it to come up, but I felt heavy about it, and so the next day I said, Mom. Look, I want you to know I forgive you for not doing anything. And she went like this. She's like, I don't know why I didn't. sometimes where they're at in their life they can't protect you and so there's no need for me To hold on to that.
Leslie Capps: Right, absolutely.
Wilma Kinsman: not gonna help her if I hold it over her head. She's in her eighties now. I mean, I wouldn't have brought it up, but it came up. I have a sense of self now. I still get triggered though. I still I sometimes at work they have these bright lights, and it my nervous system thinks I'm being raped. I have to put a a hat on, I have to care for myself. Instead of shaming myself and saying, now Wilma, get over it. You're not being raped. Well, I know I'm not being raped, but my nervous system, for some reason, those bright lights start to make me feel like I'm being invaded and violated.
Leslie Capps: Sure. Yeah. Absolutely.
Wilma Kinsman: So I wanna listen to
Leslie Capps: And now that's really what you're helping others do, right? Recognize these signs, let go of the shaming, and figure
Wilma Kinsman: Yes.
Leslie Capps: out a way really to work with your body and listen to it as
Wilma Kinsman: Yeah.
Leslie Capps: well as help it.
Wilma Kinsman: Yeah, the holistic approach of you know, I call it Trauma Healing with Jesus, and I'm a Christ centered trauma coach. so you can find me on WilmaKinsman dot com. but what I try to do is look at the holistic approach, okay? We want to look at our spirit If there is evil involved, we want to, you know, ask the Lord to show us that. We want to think about our belief system, which is in our left hemisphere in our library. We want to think about our right hemisphere, which is community and attachment, bonding, that can control things. we want to think about our nervous system and our body. So we want to
Leslie Capps: Okay.
Wilma Kinsman: look at all of it. our goal in trauma coaching is to be who God made us to be. And oftentimes fear has driven us. And we now want to be driven out of desire and love. What do I want? What do I prefer? Well, if you're in the back of your brain just trying to survive, you never know what you prefer. When's when Wilder asks me what do you prefer I went Like I I had no clue because I was so used to just watch what's going on. Make sure you stay out of danger. So it's a defensive way to live. Instead of living now I live from the inside out. What do I want? Who am I? What's the purpose here? Not just to defend myself from danger, but I mean I kinda had to do that as a child because there was a lot of danger.
Leslie Capps: Sure, Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I know you had a free gift for people. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Wilma Kinsman: Yes. if you go to WillMakinsman.com, you scroll all the way to the bottom, it says there's a button that says sign up for my email list and get a free video. That's That's just one grounding exercise that I created. which is a it's an exercise where I use prayer, I use singing, because your right hemisphere really gets a better message through singing. So if if you need to get a message, a song will get to your right hemisphere, to your emotions better. So I use singing, prayer, and then just focusing on being glad to be with yourself and where you are.
Leslie Capps: are there any last either Wilma isms or words of wisdom you want to share with
Wilma Kinsman: Wow Well
Leslie Capps: the audience?
Wilma Kinsman: I've always liked the pearl and the poop thing, you know, it's
Leslie Capps: Right.
Wilma Kinsman: life will give you poop but you just have to put your boots on and go digging for it. The other thing I used to have written in my garage it was it's not what happens to you but how you respond. So i if you have a lot of trauma, you can change. it feels sometimes like you can't but you can change. There is hope because God made our brains to change. if I could magically take everyone's shame away I would but
Leslie Capps: Hmm. Wow, what a place the world would be, right? If we didn't have that particular emotion, actually. Very interesting. but
Wilma Kinsman: Yeah. Yeah.
Leslie Capps: but yeah, you're right. I love this idea and part of why I wanted to have this conversation, right? Was that we can change it. And
Wilma Kinsman: Yes.
Leslie Capps: there's resources now. I think it's a beautiful time to be living because there's so many opportunities that we're becoming aware of. And I didn't know Dr. Wilder. And now we've exposed a whole nother set of people to his and your work.
Wilma Kinsman: There's so many people out there now that are trauma informed. Yeah.
Leslie Capps: Yep, absolutely. I think even with the most normal of childhoods, we all walk away with some kind of trauma.
Wilma Kinsman: Yes. And that's why we should never compare our traumas. Because what's trauma to you is trauma to you. You were overwhelmed and you were alone. And you still need and deserve a empathetic witness to listen and to value.
Leslie Capps: Right. Absolutely. Yeah, love that. That's a great place to end because as you can tell, folks, we could go on. Yeah.
Wilma Kinsman: we could.
Leslie Capps: So it's been a joy and a delight, Wilma, to have you on.
Wilma Kinsman: thank you so much for having me.
Leslie Capps: Absolutely, yeah. And everybody else, be sure and subscribe because you don't want to miss more powerful conversations like we just had with Wilma, How can we change our own perception of our feelings and create more joy. Hold on to that. Let's come back to joy and create much more joy in our lives and the world. catch you on
Wilma Kinsman: Yeah. I love that.
Leslie Capps: the other side.
