Unity in Diversity: Navigating Church Disagreement with Charity

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Welcome back to another episode of the Crosspoint Podcast. We take simple truths
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from Sunday morning learning to Monday morning living.
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My name is Liam and I am joined by a friend and sister in Christ.
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Donna, say what is up. Welcome, welcome. Thank you.
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Donna is here on the podcast regularly. She serves here in a variety of ministries.
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We're going to be talking about some of those ministries later on the podcast.
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She is on staff here.
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Donna knows her scripture really well. Did you finish your degree? I did.
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Finished your degree. What was your degree in? Master of Theological Studies.
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That's one more master's in theology than I have.
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Maybe not than you listening. And if that's not the case, great.
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Congratulations. You have another degree. Thank you. Thank you.
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But we are glad to have her on here at the podcast.
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If this podcast is a blessing, you go ahead and subscribe.
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So you get notification each time a new episode comes out and please share this
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episode with anyone you think it could encourage or challenge. All right.
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So we are back in Romans.
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Last school year, we were in Romans. And the summer comes and we did other things.
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We did a sermon series on masculinity. Adam, where are you? I really enjoyed that.
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My wife, who obviously is not a man, also really enjoyed that.
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So I think that was stuff for everyone there.
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Shout out to Ziza. love her and now we're back in Romans we're finishing Romans
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8 we're about to get into Romans 9 if you haven't heard the sermon go check
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it out if you haven't read Romans 9 before we'll get to it later but you're
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welcome to read it whenever you'd like,
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Romans 9 is chapter in the Bible that talks a lot about predestination about God's sovereignty,
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is God's sovereignty is like the shortest way I could,
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summarize the chapter but we are preparing for that chapter here with Romans 8, 29 to 30.
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And so predestination, the elect, forenew, what it looks like to call.
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These are all things that we're going to be talking about, not necessarily today,
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but in the next few weeks to come.
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These are also issues that.
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There is disagreement in our church, in Christendom, in capital C church,
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capital C church, meaning the churches around the world.
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And that disagreement can create issues.
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So our church is diverse in a variety of ways. It's diverse ethnically,
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linguistically, in age, in social economic background.
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People disagree politically.
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Yet we are unified in that we believe Christ is king,
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but that that diversity creates friction and that friction can create other
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problems that we don't want that are not akin with Christ.
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So what does it mean for us to be a unified church?
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Donna, what does that what does that look like? You know.
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It's a great question. Liam, I think of the comment made by Augustine,
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it's attributed to him. He says, in essentials, unity, in non-essentials,
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liberty, in all things, charity.
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And so I think it starts there where what it looks like to be,
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to have unity is that we are united around what matters the most, right?
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Around salvific issues is what it's called. So things that are pertaining to
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the salvation of mankind, that Jesus is the way, not a way, the way,
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the truth, and the life, that like you said, he is king.
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The Bible is the inspired, infallible word of God, right?
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Inspired by the Holy Spirit, written by human authors through the Holy Spirit.
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And so we agree on the things that matter the most, and there is unity in that, right?
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In non-essentials, meaning everything else, right? So could be the age of the
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earth, right? Like we all agree that God created the earth, but how?
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Couldn't tell you. Couldn't tell you. We weren't there. There's no video,
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right? Like we don't know. We have no idea. What? I wish. That's so awesome.
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Oh, I can't wait to see it. I think that we'll get to see it in heaven.
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You know what I mean? I think we'll get to see like, so, hey,
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can we see how you did that? You know what I mean? Who knows?
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But anyway, there's liberty there. There's room for disagreement.
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And the fact is, like, this is where the nitty-gritty is, right? Yeah.
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We can agree to disagree on things that are not essential. We can agree to disagree.
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There's room for disagreement. There's not room for disunity on those things, right?
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And then in all things charity, and that covers the whole thing,
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right? So you hold the view. There's humility here that has to come into play
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in those non-essentials.
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Humility has to cover that liberty. So you are free to have a different opinion
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on some things. Right. And there are some that are not salvific. Right. Sure.
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But you're not free to cause division over it. You're not free to be haughty
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about it. You're not free to hold it with such a tight hand that you are unkind.
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And prideful about it. Right.
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You're not free to say my way is the right way.
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I shared this with you as we were prepping. There's a show called The West Wing that Mark and I adore.
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And there's this one scene where the president yells at somebody else and he's
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pointing at him and he goes, you just stand there in your wrongness and be wrong
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and get used to it. Like, that's not how we handle disagreements. OK.
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And so it's to be kind and humble and charitable in that. So, yeah.
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And we have to guard that because human nature is to, like, we like to be around
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our people. We like to be around people that think like we do. We other. Yeah.
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And then, like, spoiler alert, I've been married to Mark Hall for 37 years.
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Not a day goes by that he doesn't say or do something that I disagree with.
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Pray for him. I'm a shrew. But the fact is that, you know what I mean?
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So it's just like, I agreed to spend the rest of my life with this man.
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Like we're together till one of us kicks the can.
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And we disagree sometimes. And you learn to, like, you don't just take your
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marbles and go home because you disagree.
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Not on something that is non-essential. Amen.
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So our church, we have disagreements, but we say our church,
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we mean our church members.
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So we have a lot of people that are loosely part of our church.
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They come through on a Sunday morning or maybe participate in an outreach of some kind.
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And those people, they're part of our church in a sense.
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But the people that, when I say our church, I mean our body.
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So these are our members.
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And there is a different responsibility if you are a member of a church.
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You are under the authority of the leadership of the church.
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So in similar, how Donna loves her husband and maybe he does something that she disagrees with.
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I have never, so she said every day, I've never once seen Mark do something
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and then Donna say, Mark, don't do that.
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Or like, Mark, I can't believe you did that. Now, I am sure those conversations
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occur, but I've never seen them.
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In a similar way, we are a church. So if our church leadership makes a decision
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and we don't agree with it,
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we can disagree and we can go to one of the elders or someone in church leadership
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and say, I'm confused by this decision.
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What, am I missing something? We have family meetings semi-regularly.
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And a lot of our church members don't even attend.
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Yeah. But if you want to disagree, that would be that is a public forum,
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but that would be an appropriate forum to say we are all members here.
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I disagree with the decision. We have votes.
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And that is appropriate. But if going back to a marriage position,
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if I'm with Zaire and Zaire does something I don't like or I do something she
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doesn't like, and then I put her on blast on social media,
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or I just took my bag and went home, I left the marriage because I disagreed. That would be sin.
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Well, and it's also, yes, it would be sin. And you're not protecting the unity
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of the marriage that you covenanted to keep, right? And so when it comes to
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church membership, right, we do covenant with one another, right?
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We promise to uphold the statement of faith of this church. We promise to one
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another one another, right? There's all kinds of stuff that we agree to.
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We agree to be part of a small group. We agree to give. We agree to serve,
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right? That's all part of what it means to be a member of a family, right?
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I'm sorry, but you can't be the 35-year-old living in the basement that's just
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a consumer and, like, you never, you know, get your hands dirty and do the dishes.
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Like, it's part of participating, being an active member of a family, right?
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And so you agree to do all these things, and this is one of those things that,
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as a family, we need to sit down and talk about. That's why we're here,
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you and I, because, spoiler alert, guys...
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Liam and I disagree on this, right? Amen. So, but, but. What's this?
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What are we disagreeing on? Just briefly. This being, okay, so like you said,
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chapter nine is talking about God's sovereign choice.
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If you open your Bible right now, don't do it if you're listening to this as
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you're driving, but if you are sitting somewhere and you have a Bible right
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there, open it up to chapter nine, Romans nine, and it will say,
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God's sovereign choice right above it, right?
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And so there are these words that are used in Romans chapter 8, today's sermon text.
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The words foreknew, like he foreknew people, God predestined them,
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called them justified and glorified, right? And some of those words are more...
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Controversial to others. Yes, exactly. And so that is this that I'm talking about.
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Yeah. And with that, though, so let's say, and if you're a part of our church,
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then you know what we're talking about.
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So what does that look like? You're saying, okay, well, we're part of,
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we are part of the body and there's scripture in the body and one's an eye and
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one's an ear and the ear shouldn't wish to be an eye and we're all together.
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But what does that look like? So I disagree with Donna. Donna disagrees with me.
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And we're part of the same small group or we're friends at church and we're
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part of the same family maybe. We're driving home after church.
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What is, how can we have that discussion in a way where we are not belittling,
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we are being charitable. The quote you have from Augustine is,
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people are being charitable. How do we have that discussion charitably?
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Yeah, well, step one, don't do what President Bartlett did in the West Wing
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and just yell in somebody's face and point at them and tell them they're wrong
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and stand there in the wrongness.
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Exercise gentleness. And be wrong. So be gentle.
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And again, it's the humility piece, right? So it's a matter of holding your
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view with an open hand, knowing that, and Pastor Brennan even said this at the
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830 service, where he said, like.
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You're sitting there thinking that you've got God, the God, the one and only
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God of the universe all figured out.
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Like the hubris of that kind of mentality.
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So the humility is to say, listen, I'm reading the same scripture that you're
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reading, and I know that there is one actual interpretation of this scripture.
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Someone is right. It's the one that God intended it.
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The interpretation that is correct is the one that God intended. Amen. Okay.
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And so it means what God wanted it to mean when he inspired Paul to write this letter. Okay.
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The question is, we mere human beings, all of us, our minds have been affected by sin, okay?
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We underestimate that when we think we've got it all figured out.
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I figured this out. I know exactly what this means. I know exactly how God works.
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I know who He is and how He works, and I know what He's trying to say here.
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I've got it figured out, and anybody who disagrees with me is a heretic. Okay?
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That is the opposite of humility. That's the opposite of how we should approach this.
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It's the opposite of getting on our phones, Googling something,
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saying, well, ChatGPT says, come on, man, like, do better. I'm sorry, do better.
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The thing is that that is dishonoring to the leader that God has chosen to pastor this church.
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And it's dishonoring to faithful interpretation, doing the hard work yourself
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of studying the word of God. Now, it means what God intended it to mean.
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There is one accurate interpretation of all Scripture. There could be many applications, okay?
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So, this comes down to, we don't even argue about how do we apply this.
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We argue over the interpretation of it.
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And what humility looks like is saying, I think it says this.
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I think it means this. That's interpretation, right? I think it means this, but I could be wrong.
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That's how you hold your view, right? I am open to the idea that I could be wrong.
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Now, it doesn't mean that somebody who holds the exact opposing view,
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then they're automatically right.
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It means I might be missing something because it's God.
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We're talking about how God saves people here. That's what we're talking about.
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And to say that we know it all is to say that we fully understand the mind of God.
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I have a newsflash for you. A lot of people believe that when we die and we
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go to glory, we will know everything. I don't find that.
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I don't know that we become little gods and we become omniscient.
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I think, based on Scripture, that we're going to spend all of eternity— Learning
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about God. Learning about Him because He's infinite.
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He is infinite. There's no bottom of the well of getting to know Him.
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Amen. Right? So what makes us think that here in these unglorified,
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unfully sanctified bodies and minds that we're going to figure it out in the here and now?
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So you want to continue to argue with people on that? That's crazy to me.
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I think that, again, that's a lack of humility there. And so arguing and having
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discussions, we don't want to have arguments that are not charitable.
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But we want to we want to have healthy discussion here yeah just a peek behind the curtain,
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as donna said i don't have the same convictions that donna does as that also
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for the record donna's position is the position of this church of our church leadership yet,
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i am here on this podcast i help lead this ministry there are other people that
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lead ministries here that might have some different convictions in the church.
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So Pastor Brennan met with me, was this like two weeks ago or so,
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three weeks ago? Yep, yep.
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And he's like, hey, Liam, I know we're getting to this part of the sermon series,
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and you have some different convictions than our church leadership.
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How do you feel about continuing with the podcast as you have been when we do that?
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I said, I think I can do so in a respectful way and be sincere at the same time.
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And Pastor Brennan said, that's great.
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That is what I would like. I would like you to come on. I want you to be sincere.
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Obviously, be respectful. But also, there are other members of our church that
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I think you will effectively represent. When you're asking questions to our
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sermon series, they will have similar questions.
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So come on, do that. We have other people on the podcast that have the same
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convictions as the church. They can represent what I am seeing reasonably.
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And there's a diversity of thought there.
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And that is good.
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What would be not charitable is if someone were to hear the sermon or something
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and think that Pastor Brennan or church leadership or us as a podcast, I don't know,
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is trying to sell you something.
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We are selling you Christ, so we're selling you something.
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But we are not trying. There's no deception here.
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If we are taking a position, we are taking it because we believe that to be fact.
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We believe that to be truth, and we think that is for your good.
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So to be in charitable would say, oh, this person, like when you're having a
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discussion with someone is the spirit of debate where it's like,
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I want to beat you in this discussion when really we're just,
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we're just all looking to find truth.
00:17:16.355 --> 00:17:19.292
Yeah. And that's, that's what we want for our church. That's what's a healthy
00:17:19.292 --> 00:17:21.731
church, a healthy family looks like.
00:17:21.934 --> 00:17:26.362
Yeah. What if, let's say you're, Donna, you lead several ministries here.
00:17:26.362 --> 00:17:33.517
What if you co-lead a ministry with someone and that person disagrees with you on an issue of this kind?
00:17:34.161 --> 00:17:37.782
So I'm going to pick an issue that because you might be hearing this and be
00:17:37.782 --> 00:17:40.152
like, OK, so this church has some division here about this issue.
00:17:40.702 --> 00:17:42.693
We have division on plenty of issues.
00:17:43.762 --> 00:17:47.142
Not division, disagreement. You're right. We have disagreement on plenty of
00:17:47.142 --> 00:17:52.352
issues, yet our church is still united. For example, our church leadership takes
00:17:52.352 --> 00:17:56.222
the position that women will not preach Sunday morning from the pulpit.
00:17:56.793 --> 00:18:01.029
But women can have leadership positions. We hold them both at the same time.
00:18:01.476 --> 00:18:06.922
So not all people that are members in our church feel the same way.
00:18:06.922 --> 00:18:08.117
They have different convictions.
00:18:08.477 --> 00:18:13.974
Yet they serve here and they serve in leadership. My guess is you've served alongside some.
00:18:14.114 --> 00:18:17.472
So Donna, what do you do with that issue? I'm not, for the record,
00:18:17.472 --> 00:18:20.981
I don't want to dive into that issue much because that issue's a whole nother thing.
00:18:21.231 --> 00:18:25.402
Yeah. But what do you do when you're leading a ministry you with someone and
00:18:25.402 --> 00:18:27.801
you have real convictions.
00:18:28.884 --> 00:18:33.750
That are disagreeing with them about issues that are truly important,
00:18:34.197 --> 00:18:38.534
but they're not salvific or they're not salvation issues. Yeah.
00:18:38.946 --> 00:18:43.156
So again, with that, like, so if it came to, you know, women in the pulpit,
00:18:43.156 --> 00:18:50.576
whatever, I'm not going to sit here and lobby for a woman to preach on Mother's Day or whatever.
00:18:50.576 --> 00:18:53.086
Like, that's something that a lot of churches do. Have you ever noticed that?
00:18:53.086 --> 00:18:55.916
I haven't noticed, but I believe it. Oh, it's Mother's Day, so women are going
00:18:55.916 --> 00:18:59.296
to do everything. I'm just like, give mama the day off.
00:18:59.616 --> 00:19:01.956
You would think that'd be Father's Day. It's the opposite. Exactly.
00:19:01.956 --> 00:19:05.436
But anyway, so it's just like, yeah, I'm not going to lobby for,
00:19:05.436 --> 00:19:10.196
well, she feels called to preach, whatever. I would sit down with that woman
00:19:10.196 --> 00:19:14.120
and say, listen, here are the opportunities available to you in this church.
00:19:15.153 --> 00:19:24.396
And the bottom line is, Liam, this goes back to how our minds have been affected
00:19:24.396 --> 00:19:27.134
by sin and we want what we want because we want it.
00:19:28.412 --> 00:19:31.552
This is what Eve did in the garden, right? She wanted what she wanted,
00:19:31.912 --> 00:19:34.013
and she was not going to take no for an answer.
00:19:34.449 --> 00:19:41.636
When women want to do what I believe Scripture forbids, I take her to the Scripture.
00:19:42.239 --> 00:19:49.258
And I say, with the humility that I talked about, one of us is wrong.
00:19:49.769 --> 00:19:54.940
We're both probably wrong in some things here when it comes to the interpretation of this scripture.
00:19:55.602 --> 00:19:58.243
However, which side are you willing to err on?
00:19:59.080 --> 00:20:03.952
The side that you are limited in what you can do here, even though you're not
00:20:03.952 --> 00:20:06.467
forbidden to serve, right?
00:20:07.128 --> 00:20:09.805
You are limited in the areas where you can serve.
00:20:11.331 --> 00:20:14.425
Which error are you willing to move forward with?
00:20:14.843 --> 00:20:18.622
The error of you err on the side of caution, you know what I mean?
00:20:18.622 --> 00:20:23.912
Or the error of, I really could have done this one thing. I really could have
00:20:23.912 --> 00:20:26.018
served in this capacity and I wasn't able to.
00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:30.802
I'd rather be put in a box for the rest of my life and get to heaven and God
00:20:30.802 --> 00:20:32.955
go, you still nod, you could have preached.
00:20:33.222 --> 00:20:36.052
And I would have been like, oh, well, well, you know, you'll come over to my
00:20:36.052 --> 00:20:38.278
mansion. I gotta, you know, whatever it is.
00:20:38.847 --> 00:20:44.900
I would rather that in an effort to honor what I believe the word of God says
00:20:45.149 --> 00:20:49.363
than to fly in the face of it and be guilty of disobedience.
00:20:50.075 --> 00:20:53.462
Yeah. Do you see what I'm saying? But what I'm saying is how do you,
00:20:53.462 --> 00:20:54.672
so you're serving alongside this woman.
00:20:55.132 --> 00:20:58.062
That's what I say to them. And okay. That's what I say. Yeah.
00:20:58.062 --> 00:21:00.602
No, don't ask me a question if you don't want the answer. Like that's,
00:21:00.602 --> 00:21:04.462
that's, and I'm not talking to you. I'm talking in general, people in general,
00:21:04.462 --> 00:21:06.276
I tend to like, I'm going to tell you what I think.
00:21:06.688 --> 00:21:10.552
And that's, that would be the answer that I would give them. Like, no.
00:21:10.912 --> 00:21:14.162
Like, so if you want to teach the women's Bible study, you know,
00:21:14.162 --> 00:21:17.617
let's talk. That's an appropriate place for you to exercise your gift.
00:21:18.157 --> 00:21:21.192
You want to mentor people? Do you want to disciple people? That's fine.
00:21:21.192 --> 00:21:23.945
But like, you need to, here's our statement of faith.
00:21:24.520 --> 00:21:29.482
Here's what we believe as a church. And if you can't full-throatedly give your
00:21:29.482 --> 00:21:31.016
full-throat support to that.
00:21:32.306 --> 00:21:34.799
Then maybe there's somewhere else for you to serve. That's what it is.
00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:37.629
There's somewhere else for you to serve. So for example, with this particular
00:21:37.629 --> 00:21:41.751
issue, we're about to be, we're finishing up Romans 8. We're about to be in Romans 9.
00:21:42.413 --> 00:21:47.039
One time I was invited to preach on a Thursday night. Good Friday.
00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:48.699
I was going to say Friday. Goodness. Good Thursday.
00:21:49.019 --> 00:21:51.218
Good Friday. And I did a little devotional.
00:21:51.850 --> 00:21:57.730
And that one will ask Sire out that night. I know. It's so fun. And that went well.
00:21:58.361 --> 00:22:03.479
It would be odd for me to expect that our church leadership would ask me to
00:22:03.479 --> 00:22:06.578
preach on Romans 9 because,
00:22:07.306 --> 00:22:12.339
we are gonna I'm gonna represent scripture differently than our church's position is,
00:22:12.961 --> 00:22:19.239
so I just won't do that and that's to me that's fine some people may feel differently
00:22:19.239 --> 00:22:21.209
it's only like so many people that can preach on something more it doesn't make
00:22:21.209 --> 00:22:24.053
sense that they invite everyone but whatever so,
00:22:24.820 --> 00:22:31.689
that's there's that another backstory years ago i had just started coming to
00:22:31.689 --> 00:22:36.099
this church and i met with pastor brennan twice at panera in hamilton,
00:22:36.812 --> 00:22:42.899
and the second time we're meeting and we're talking about church and i said
00:22:42.899 --> 00:22:46.504
i don't know if i can i can be a member here.
00:22:47.317 --> 00:22:53.066
Because I don't share the same convictions as the church on this particular issue,
00:22:53.696 --> 00:22:58.919
even though many other things we agree on that are not salvation issues,
00:22:58.919 --> 00:23:02.497
but we agree on those ones. We don't agree on this one. So.
00:23:04.572 --> 00:23:09.098
Can I be a member here? Because then I invite my friends here. How would that work?
00:23:09.926 --> 00:23:13.856
And Pastor Brennan was like, well, Liam, that's something for you to decide.
00:23:14.413 --> 00:23:18.409
But and real quick I had to you know how people do the interview to be members
00:23:18.409 --> 00:23:23.137
I did that interview three times other people got to do it once so,
00:23:23.992 --> 00:23:30.866
But then he was like, well, first, be open to the premise that you could be wrong.
00:23:31.376 --> 00:23:34.468
Right. So you have this conviction, Liam. You could be wrong.
00:23:34.468 --> 00:23:38.548
And I'm like, yeah, that is very much on the table. I could be wrong. Yeah.
00:23:38.868 --> 00:23:40.841
And they say, OK, then. Yeah.
00:23:41.698 --> 00:23:48.727
Like, can these other things, these are the key issues. Christ is king.
00:23:49.215 --> 00:23:54.364
Bible is truth. We are here to love God and love others.
00:23:55.336 --> 00:23:58.932
Are we in accord on those? And like, of course we are.
00:23:59.193 --> 00:24:02.546
Right. I mean, our mission statement is gigantic. It's on the wall in the sanctuary.
00:24:02.546 --> 00:24:06.356
We exist to connect people to the love of Jesus and help them live on gospel
00:24:06.356 --> 00:24:08.463
mission. Do you agree with that? Amen.
00:24:08.597 --> 00:24:18.482
Right. Absolutely. So then we want to see where is our common ground and is that all we really need?
00:24:18.755 --> 00:24:22.416
Now, not that these other things aren't good, but like that's what we need.
00:24:23.248 --> 00:24:30.917
And if you are part of our church, then that's what you need.
00:24:31.895 --> 00:24:38.281
These other things like a minor example but people do have conflict over it is like,
00:24:38.723 --> 00:24:42.036
pre-trib versus post-trib if you don't know what i'm talking about ignore it but wait
00:24:42.416 --> 00:24:48.731
i almost forgot ignore that no so then the pastor brand continues and then this is so this is 2020
00:24:48.969 --> 00:24:53.416
and maybe 2021 early i can't remember but when you went out to lunch yeah lockdowns
00:24:53.416 --> 00:24:57.491
yeah i remember that yep yep and it It was early, 2021, I think. Okay.
00:24:57.938 --> 00:25:01.576
And then Pastor Brennan's like, and Liam, he told me this brief story,
00:25:01.576 --> 00:25:06.860
which I don't remember the details of, but it was a church that had broken over masks. Yeah.
00:25:06.970 --> 00:25:10.674
And some people thought masks were really important. Some did not. And the differences.
00:25:11.138 --> 00:25:16.336
And at the time, that just seemed ridiculous to me. It's even more ridiculous
00:25:16.336 --> 00:25:17.715
now with the benefit of hindsight.
00:25:18.139 --> 00:25:22.896
But it's like there's church bodies that are breaking over masks.
00:25:22.896 --> 00:25:27.230
No one's even wearing a mask anymore. Yeah. Unless you're like in a dentist's office or something.
00:25:27.976 --> 00:25:32.760
So this is an issue where churches have broken.
00:25:32.992 --> 00:25:38.843
That is a fact that churches have broken. Denominations have been created based on this issue.
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:43.796
And it's like, but we want to be unified.
00:25:44.539 --> 00:25:46.123
And we're still going to study it.
00:25:46.894 --> 00:25:50.686
So let's, real quick, why would we study it? If me and you are saying,
00:25:51.011 --> 00:25:56.371
this isn't a salvation issue, so we can disagree, but we can still serve together. Why even preach it?
00:25:58.798 --> 00:26:01.814
Well, first of all, I mean, it's in the text. It's in the text.
00:26:02.154 --> 00:26:05.206
It's in the text. And you have to preach the text. And honestly,
00:26:05.572 --> 00:26:13.410
that is something that we, I don't want anybody to undervalue how important that is.
00:26:13.601 --> 00:26:19.569
You have a pastor who is not afraid of preaching what's next, right?
00:26:19.940 --> 00:26:21.434
And so if it's there, he's going to
00:26:21.434 --> 00:26:24.120
preach it and he's going to preach it faithfully. He's going to study it.
00:26:24.647 --> 00:26:31.004
This man is educated. He swims with all the great minds throughout church history
00:26:31.004 --> 00:26:33.984
when he prepares to preach the Word of God.
00:26:33.984 --> 00:26:39.424
And so you better believe that he is coming to that pulpit fully prepared and
00:26:39.424 --> 00:26:42.254
fully educated on the topic at hand.
00:26:42.254 --> 00:26:47.414
Now, you preach it because it's there and you preach it according to,
00:26:47.414 --> 00:26:55.554
so like his faithful study, his firm belief, his firm conviction, and the consensus,
00:26:56.082 --> 00:26:57.422
of church history,
00:26:58.111 --> 00:27:00.954
leads him to say what he says, okay?
00:27:00.954 --> 00:27:06.075
And of course, all in the power of the Holy Spirit. So you preach what's there.
00:27:06.706 --> 00:27:08.123
He preached on marriage. Yeah.
00:27:09.143 --> 00:27:14.234
We did the sermon series called The Song, and it was on the Song of Solomon.
00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:15.888
You preach the text, right?
00:27:16.527 --> 00:27:19.602
People who were not married could be blessed by that. You mentioned the Adam
00:27:19.602 --> 00:27:22.377
series. People who are not men were blessed by that.
00:27:22.772 --> 00:27:27.492
You know, you're preaching what's there. And those are great examples of things
00:27:27.492 --> 00:27:30.332
that aren't salvation issues. So we're preaching this because the church is
00:27:30.332 --> 00:27:31.511
saying this is for your good.
00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:34.756
Yeah. So we want you to have a healthy marriage. Why?
00:27:35.249 --> 00:27:38.214
You could still get to heaven and have been divorced. first,
00:27:38.214 --> 00:27:42.062
but we want you for your good. Live life to the fullest and live life to the
00:27:42.062 --> 00:27:45.982
flourishing and strong theology is part of that. Yes.
00:27:46.302 --> 00:27:49.922
And the thing is with this, so like today's text was about, you know,
00:27:49.922 --> 00:27:51.982
it was Romans 8, 29 and 30.
00:27:51.982 --> 00:27:56.152
For those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image
00:27:56.152 --> 00:28:00.722
of his son in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
00:28:00.722 --> 00:28:03.242
Jesus wants to save all those who are his.
00:28:03.677 --> 00:28:07.042
And those whom he predestined, he also called, and those whom he called,
00:28:07.042 --> 00:28:10.359
he also justified, and those whom he justified, he also glorified, right?
00:28:10.684 --> 00:28:14.364
This is what theologians call the golden chain of redemption, okay?
00:28:14.910 --> 00:28:20.882
It is inseparable. It is unfailing in every single step. There are five links
00:28:20.882 --> 00:28:23.401
in this chain that cannot be broken apart.
00:28:23.744 --> 00:28:31.313
And so it's talking about how God accomplishes the full salvation of his people
00:28:31.714 --> 00:28:37.943
from start to finish. It goes from his foreknowledge all the way to our glorification.
00:28:38.297 --> 00:28:42.784
And it just shows the whole process in its fullness in two sentences.
00:28:43.835 --> 00:28:47.325
Paul's like, yeah, genius, right?
00:28:47.656 --> 00:28:51.609
And so obviously inspired by the Holy Spirit, but yeah, Paul's a smarty smarty.
00:28:51.929 --> 00:28:57.417
And so this is the God of the universe. And to say that we can just sit here
00:28:57.417 --> 00:29:00.080
and look at that and say, oh, okay, so this is how God works.
00:29:00.464 --> 00:29:04.643
Without taking the time, say, what does it mean he foreknew?
00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:09.284
Predestined, what does that mean? For what? And to what end?
00:29:09.690 --> 00:29:14.987
Called, what does it mean to call, right? So this is why it's important to preach
00:29:14.987 --> 00:29:18.559
this stuff, because God put it there. God didn't waste ink.
00:29:19.597 --> 00:29:25.658
He didn't have Peter or Paul or John or Moses, like, write extra words just to take up space.
00:29:26.012 --> 00:29:29.877
You know what I mean? He inspired every word. And so it's there because he wants
00:29:29.877 --> 00:29:34.865
us to know this about him. That's why it's there. And that's why you preach it.
00:29:35.329 --> 00:29:40.367
Yes. Because it matters. And my request to you, if you're still listening and
00:29:40.367 --> 00:29:43.834
you're someone who does not have the same convictions as our church,
00:29:44.246 --> 00:29:47.305
and you were, let's say you're frustrated by,
00:29:47.775 --> 00:29:51.897
the sermon you heard today or anticipate that you'll be frustrated by a future sermon.
00:29:52.721 --> 00:29:57.301
Fine. That may be true. But I would ask you to listen anyway.
00:29:58.537 --> 00:30:02.421
I am not saying that you will agree. You may. You may not.
00:30:03.172 --> 00:30:08.222
But I'm asking that you sit under the leadership that you have committed to sit under.
00:30:08.831 --> 00:30:12.827
If you have something where you see a glaring issue, you bring it to someone
00:30:12.827 --> 00:30:17.337
in church leadership in sincerity, in private, and you say, this is an issue I've seen.
00:30:17.717 --> 00:30:19.937
I'd like to present this to you. And then there can be a real discussion.
00:30:21.067 --> 00:30:24.557
But you, if you're a member of this church, you've had a commitment to say,
00:30:25.397 --> 00:30:28.125
I am going to study under this church. I'm going to sit under this leadership.
00:30:28.752 --> 00:30:31.999
And you should follow through on that. Yeah.
00:30:33.217 --> 00:30:39.897
And I just want to say here, for those of you who may not know, Liam and I, when we,
00:30:41.231 --> 00:30:47.408
We had first asked Liam to host the podcast. We already knew this, right?
00:30:47.848 --> 00:30:50.210
Like you said, you went and had lunch with Pastor Brennan.
00:30:50.698 --> 00:30:54.658
I was aware of those lunches. I was aware of the nature of them,
00:30:54.658 --> 00:30:57.518
right? Like what? I just found that out just now.
00:30:59.301 --> 00:31:04.448
But like, I, you know, I knew that that was like a sticking point for you.
00:31:04.828 --> 00:31:10.608
And I knew that you had open, honest discussions and that you joined this church anyway.
00:31:10.608 --> 00:31:14.282
And like when we first asked you to be the host on this podcast,
00:31:14.915 --> 00:31:19.328
it was like, you're a natural. You're so gifted and you're so good.
00:31:19.328 --> 00:31:24.023
And there's a reason why you're sitting in that seat.
00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:30.648
Knowing that Liam and I are on different, you know, literally different sides
00:31:30.648 --> 00:31:34.393
of the table, but like figuratively different sides of the table on this issue.
00:31:35.183 --> 00:31:39.558
Liam and I have over the years working together on this podcast.
00:31:39.558 --> 00:31:43.388
I'm not on every week, but I'm behind the scenes on the podcast.
00:31:43.388 --> 00:31:48.008
And so working with Liam, I'm going to speak for me, not for you,
00:31:48.008 --> 00:31:55.695
but like I have come to love him like no other. I mean, he is,
00:31:56.020 --> 00:31:57.349
I think, the world of you.
00:31:57.552 --> 00:32:01.248
I just think the world of you. The fact that I adore your wife and I've known
00:32:01.248 --> 00:32:04.418
her since forever just endears you all the more to me.
00:32:04.418 --> 00:32:12.228
But like, honestly, just because of Liam has a heart for the Lord that is almost
00:32:12.228 --> 00:32:14.868
unrivaled in the people that I see in this church.
00:32:14.868 --> 00:32:21.878
And he has a heart for talking and a heart and a gift for talking to unbelievers,
00:32:21.878 --> 00:32:24.827
to the unsaved world and to people of different,
00:32:25.529 --> 00:32:30.074
denominational backgrounds and traditions that is in such a way,
00:32:31.088 --> 00:32:33.162
that at the same time boldness.
00:32:34.197 --> 00:32:40.157
And charitable and kind and humble, but you stand firm in what you know and believe.
00:32:40.709 --> 00:32:47.589
And I admire that about you. And so the fact that we can disagree on this and
00:32:47.589 --> 00:32:53.409
still admire and love one another and work together, that's what we're talking
00:32:53.409 --> 00:32:55.249
about. And that's why we're having this conversation today.
00:32:55.505 --> 00:32:59.729
This isn't mostly about the sermon. This is mostly about what is to come and
00:32:59.729 --> 00:33:04.809
what our heart posture should be toward one another and toward this church and
00:33:04.809 --> 00:33:08.775
toward the word of God, because we're setting the table for what's to come.
00:33:08.949 --> 00:33:11.224
Yeah. Right? And so we want to allay those fears.
00:33:11.573 --> 00:33:17.233
We are not here to debate these issues. We're not here to win points or earn people to our side.
00:33:18.109 --> 00:33:21.476
That's maybe for a different day. That's not what this is for.
00:33:21.940 --> 00:33:26.459
Yeah. Right? Yeah. Maybe for, I mean, debates have a purpose,
00:33:26.459 --> 00:33:29.258
but that's not our intention with this podcast. Exactly.
00:33:29.575 --> 00:33:37.336
So we hope that you are encouraged to love your brother and sister in Christ to be,
00:33:38.166 --> 00:33:43.638
charitable to them and that we do so well. Donna, would you close us in prayer?
00:33:43.638 --> 00:33:47.408
Sure. Heavenly Father, Lord, we just praise you for your word.
00:33:47.748 --> 00:33:52.698
I thank you, Lord, that where it is clear, Lord, that you give us understanding.
00:33:52.698 --> 00:33:56.728
And I praise you, Father, that your Holy Spirit takes up residence within the
00:33:56.728 --> 00:34:00.098
heart, the mind, and the soul of each and every one of your children.
00:34:00.098 --> 00:34:04.088
And I pray, Lord, that through his power and his instruction,
00:34:04.088 --> 00:34:08.448
Lord, that you would lead us to your truth and that we would rely on him,
00:34:08.448 --> 00:34:12.300
Lord, not so much on our own selves, our own understanding, Lord. We are flawed.
00:34:12.747 --> 00:34:16.148
We are imperfect, Lord, but you are perfect. And so I pray, Father,
00:34:16.148 --> 00:34:19.742
that the things that you want us to know will be shown to us clearly.
00:34:20.131 --> 00:34:24.490
And Father, I pray above all else that you would give us hearts of humility,
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that our heart posture toward one another would be charitable,
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that we would be kind, that we would be loving, that we would be patient,
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and that we would be humble, Father, in our approach to the areas where we may disagree, Father.
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And again, we can have disagreement, but not disunity. There is no place for
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that in this church. And so, Father, I pray that you would protect the unity
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in this body. I pray that you would protect our pastor.
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I pray that you would protect his family, Lord, and that you would just be with
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us, in us and among us, Lord, and that we would just approach your word with
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faithfulness, with a desire to learn, not to prove a point.
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And Father, I pray that you would be glorified, Father, in this church that
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will go through these coming chapters, Father, especially Romans 9,
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Lord, where there may be some whatever disagreement and all that jazz,
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but I pray, Lord, that this would,
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result in a stronger body, in a more unified body, and in a more precious and
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perfect love of your son, Jesus.
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And it's in his name we pray, amen. Amen.
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Thank you for listening. we pray that you see Christ with your whole heart and
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have a great rest of your week. Peace!