James: Thanks for listening to the post one podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts. It helps more people find the show. you want to share your story, send us an email at james at post one podcast.com. This podcast is not endorsed by the United States department of war, the department of state or the United States Marine Corps. All right, welcome to the Post One podcast.
Gregg Jones: Hey, thanks, James, for having me.
James: Now, Greg, you were the detachment commander at the American Embassy in Yemen in the late ⁓ and you actually earned a NAMM for your service there. Can you talk about how you managed to earn that NAMM? Welcome to the Post One Podcast. I'm James Curry, Marine Veteran and Prior MSG. On today's episode, retired gunnery sergeant Greg Jones, a detachment commander who served in Switzerland and Yemen, he broke protocol, left the embassy, and fought through a mob to rescue two American servicemen who were about to be killed.
Gregg Jones: Yeah, I tell you, ⁓ Yemen's a very unique ⁓ area to be at. And back in the day, what people don't realize is ⁓ Al Qaeda was running through there. ⁓ Bin Laden was ⁓ in the villages and up in the by ⁓ Aden. And so what had happened, so it had been a hotbed for terrorism and ISIS and all that stuff that was going on. And what had happened was one night ⁓ I was on post and I was relieved in my one of my watch standards and over the radio because we had radio connection with the office of military cooperation was in the country training Yemeni the army military tactics and one of the over the radio about 11 o'clock at night we hear a voice that says help me help me and I knew the voice because voice recognition, you know how it is in the military. Everybody, you you know who's on the phone or, you know, I've known these guys. So I decided that at that time it was pretty, pretty hostile with inside by the embassy. think the invasion was taking place pretty soon.
James: Mm-hmm.
Gregg Jones: And so we broke protocol and I went out with one of my Marines coming off post and we had one of our drivers take us and I knew the location. I kind of figured it out. We rolled up. There was about a hundred Yemenis or so that were trying to pry open the doors to the vehicles where these two office of cooperation, military cooperation guys were in. And they were actually trying to kill them. And so they had run, somebody had run a vehicle into them. and then a whole bunch of people were trying to pry their doors open. So myself, when I had a one watch standard with me, he was a corporal. I just use his name, Corporal Scott, because I, you know, any, I haven't had any authorization to use his last name, but we rolled up and I knew right away there was an issue. So we got in and we got hands on, ⁓ with the Yemenis. ⁓ we start fighting them and, ⁓ Corporal Scott was a pretty big guy. He was throwing a few around and we just really started getting hyper. It really started to be a big problem ⁓ security wise. And so as we were fighting our way in to get into the vehicle to see how bad these guys were, ⁓ we realized that they were pretty, pretty messed up. ⁓ Over there, they had bulletproof vehicles and glass and the passenger, ⁓ hit his head, I found out later he broke his neck. had a couple of shoulders separated. He had some other issues. turned him in an internal and the driver is I think it's his sternum was separated and he was really messed up. He was actually out. And so we were able to perform first aid on the passenger the first time to get him out of there. By this time, the embassy, one of the DIA, the defense at the Shays happened to show up and we were able to actually physically pick him up and take him to that vehicle to take him to the embassy. ⁓ And so he took off with him and we had had safe-having training, which was a godsend because we had that probably a week before. So we were pretty much on top of how to perform first aid. And so we got him out of the right. right away, because he was somewhat able to walk. ⁓ And so we had to assist him over there. But at this time, Corporal Scott and myself had went back to the fight while the major took him back to the embassy. So that put us in a quantum because now we have a problem. We have a driver that's totally out. We could tell that he's breathing hard and he's having some issues breathing. So we had to protect him at the same time to get him out of there, Then what happened was, I don't know why, but the ambassador decides to show up on the scene with his Cadillac, because he hears over the radio chatter. And that started another crowd from trying to go after him. And so we had to push him back in the vehicle. His name was Ambassador Dunbar. And we had to push him back in the vehicle and tell the driver to get him back to the embassy, because now the crowd was really starting to form and they were just really going after us. And as we're fighting, physically fighting with them, We were, I got to the driver's side and I was able to do first aid with him to try to keep him out of shock because he was pretty bad off. And we thought that I thought he was going to be dead. You know, he would die on the scene. And then an ambulance showed up from ⁓ the locals and we were able to extract him out of the vehicle, still unconscious, provide him with ⁓ shock treatment. and to get him out of there so they can medevac them both to Germany for medical treatment.
James: So it sounds like it was ⁓ a pretty dangerous situation all around there.
Gregg Jones: Yeah, it was because in Yemen, they all have guns and they all have knives. And so there was blood around the area. There was some faces getting smashed as we were trained. So I just thank God that the other Marine that was with me was a big country boy and he was able to pretty much keep them off of me while I'm performing first aid on this ⁓ E-7 from the Office of Military Cooperation. ⁓ and then it just really turned south and it was more of a time of hurry up, let's get them out of here because, ⁓ they were, the crowd was really getting violent. And if you understand the country of Yemen, they, they wanted it not like Americans, ⁓ at all. And, two, they, wanted, ⁓ some type of revenge because they felt that the, the American consulate wasn't doing enough to help them getting their visas back to the, you know, into the United States.
James: what was Yemen like, you know, in the late 80s? I think we think of Yemen today or even today as a war-torn country. What was it like serving there at that time?
Gregg Jones: Well, what happened is I was put in a position there. ⁓ I think I was hand selected by somebody from the old embassy or out of, was, my original station was Geneva, Switzerland. And what had happened, we had an old embassy when I was first there and it would rain and the walls would fall down. And there was only like one camera, two alarms. It was really a place that we should not be at. And they were building. brand new compound about probably half an hour away, but it was a 25 acre brand new embassy. It had like a hundred alarms, 25 cameras, which was needed because Yemen was a, I tell people it's like Queen of Sheba time. It's so back in the time of where progress has not even begun there. I think most of the roads were dirt. very few ⁓ paved highways. And it was just a really, as far as I can say, is a back hills type, Lena Sheba type day, ⁓ era where ⁓ people lived and it was really tribalistic back then.
James: Now, during your time in Yemen, things did get a little bit dangerous in terms of the embassy because you had to help evacuate the embassy. Can you walk us through how that happened?
Gregg Jones: Yeah. So what had happened was we moved into the new embassy, thank goodness, because if we would have been in the old embassy, you would have had another Iran problem very easily. they call the ACC council, which was the Arab cooperation council, had a convention or a meeting in Yemen. And the countries that were there was the participated was Jordan. ⁓ Egypt, Iraq, and Yemen. And so when we were there, we understood that there was a conference going on, but we really didn't have any intelligence to tell us what it was about. And then about three days later, was over, the fourth or fifth day after the council, sometime really soon, ⁓ they invaded, Iraq invaded Kuwait. And that's when it really, really got... you know, dicey out there. You know, we wake up one day, know, everything's somewhat calm. And the very next day we have a hundred thousand Yemenis out there, know, Trenton that they want to kill America, ⁓ destroying the front part of where the embassy is. And only thing that was, what really was a saving grace is that we had a standoff from the front gate, which we didn't have before in the old embassy. And so we weren't getting any support. from the local government, which was ⁓ President Sala at the time. And so if you look at the UN votes, they were voting against the United States and it's just really riled up the crowd. We're at a point they were trying to come over the wall. But so Washington, DC made the decision to evacuate everybody out of there. ⁓ And we were on the local news, I guess, what I heard from my mother was that You know, CNN had said the United States embassy in Sonata, Yemen was stormed. And, and needless to say, she was quite upset thinking that, you know, here we go again. 1979 was Iran, you know, in the 19, I think early 90, I think it was, was here in Yemen. So, um, they, Washington DC, um, uh, determined that they, need to get all the non-essential personnel out of there. So we had to. take our families and embassy personnel and get them with a chartered plane to get them to the actual, you know, to the airport to get them ⁓ evacuated out of there. And I think there was like just myself, our six Marines, and I think maybe 10 or maybe 11, 12 people at the most that were there still at the embassy. And so they had went to, they ordered us to go to Zero Burn. What that means is anything that's top secret, secret, confidential needs to be shredded because they believed ⁓ that this was really not the best situation that was happening with us. And so they had authorized to get rid of all classified. And so basically what happened was all the Marines that were there, we had one on post, we had one sleep in myself, and then the other four Marines would be shredding. they, you know, they did it right though. because they had a bunch of 007 shredders to shred classified and downstairs they had a like a dicing machine that you just, it rolls and you throw books in there, classified books, and they just tears it up in small little fragments, not like they did in Afghanistan where they used to use the old burn type system where they found out there was classified.
James: Can you talk about? know what an embassy evacuation is like because it it seems like it's very chaotic ⁓ it's not necessarily something that MSG is trained for at the schoolhouse a lot of times you're relying on you know ⁓ stuff you know about the embassy once you get there Can you talk about what that's like and then what the MSG's role is in terms of with the RSO and the rest of the embassy community?
Gregg Jones: Yeah, so what had happened when the invasion of Kuwait took place, ⁓ you know, was really hectic because everything just kind of whatever was in any type of simulated some kind of, I don't know, ⁓ peaceful environment, if you could say that. ⁓ Washington, DC came back and authorized the evacuation of all non-central personnel. So what that did with us was... ⁓ I remember we sent the office of military cooperation, sent a message back to DC and said, Hey, ⁓ we're in trouble. ⁓ And they came back with a message that said, you know, get right with your God, good luck. All assets have been deployed. so we felt that because it was such a, you know, the land of death, I mean, the line of the desert where they sent 2,500 Marines, were pretty much on our own. So we had to come up with a plan that we would take ⁓ our people down and we carried our firearms going in that situation so that we can get them evacuated out. But yeah, people were leaving things that they had that leave things there at their house. It was whatever you could pretty much carry and to get out of there. So we had run in ways because we had about 200 personnel that was actually assigned, you know, with that had to get evacuated out of there. So we went into cloak at night. and, and there was, I get to admit there was one, it was, ⁓ our driver was loyal to us because I remember taking my family to the airport and all of a sudden we look in the desert, we see his headlights coming and it really me on edge because I thought, ⁓ my goodness, here they, here they're coming after my family. And I was, his name was Ahmed was my driver. I said, Ahmed, what is going on? And he said, ⁓ don't, don't worry, Mr. Gunny. Don't worry, Mr. Gunny. This is my tribe to protect your family, to go to the airport. And I was like, Whoa. So they came in with Toyota Jeeps and they had, I don't know, 30 millimeter guns in there and machine guns. So there was about eight of them that came in to actually surround my family and to take us to the airport, which I was really impressed with. And I was really grateful for it because not everybody got that type of transportation or security to go there. And, we used to take care of our guards and our drivers. You know, we'd always give them cigarettes because we could buy them in at the embassy and we'd give them favors of Cokes and, know, cartons of cigarettes. And then I had some extra sugar and some of the tribes had a problem getting the sugar, like the C8 sugar. which is finally great, now, granulated, and they loved that for making our sweets, you the cookies. And so we'd give them like 15, 20 pounds of it. So they actually returned a favor to protect us, but it was hectic because we had no support from our government. The Yemeni government was either, they were voting against the United States at the UN, and the personnel, the Yemenis were out there demonstrating.
James: Mm-hmm.
Gregg Jones: Like I said, there was probably 30 every day, there was 30, 40, 50,000. And so we were trying to make the best of what we had to get the people to the airport and then be able to get them medevaced out or get them evacuated out of there. First stop was in Germany and then wherever they went for a home. But it was awful chaotic because I have my Marines were shredding. So I'm with the RSO, the regional security officer and the ambassador. And another organization that happened to be there in the Office of Military Cooperation making a plan to how we're going to get them evacuated out. So for that initial, that initial thrust of realizing, hey, we're on our own, we're not going to get any support. ⁓ We have to figure out how to do this. And so that was one of our really challenging goals, but we were able to put a plan together and to get them evacuated out of there safely.
James: Mm-hmm. Sure. So, you know, you sound really calm telling this story, but what was it like? What were you thinking? Were you scared? Were you worried?
Gregg Jones: ⁓ you know, I don't know if we were scared. We were just focused. mean, you know, when we really didn't prepare for it, but that's one of the problems I found out with, ⁓ I don't know, some other guys out there or women with the embassies and the, ⁓ the battalion or company CEOs. was not impressed with those people because what had happened was, you know,
James: Mm-hmm.
Gregg Jones: I ⁓ came out of aviation, I was A6 and I was in charge of the flight deck, which is really, really hectic up there. So I was able to take that experience from being on a flight deck in charge of the Marine squadron up there and to put that into sense, like ⁓ what was going on with the evacuation. Because the flight deck is one of the dangerous places and it's hectic and you got to have your head on a swivel and that's pretty much what I brought to the table. But what was really funny, even when we moved into the new embassy, our company CEO, and I'll call him out, Lieutenant Colonel Messick, he had an issue that we were able to move ourselves without having to have five or six or seven extra watch standards because we were pretty organized and we didn't do anything illegal. we didn't, I always tell my Marines, the things that's going to get us to jail and the watch standards out there know this, is alcohol money. ammo and guns, right? So if you get drunk, you can get in trouble. But they would always come in with an attitude like, Hey, you know, we're going to relieve you. We're going to relieve you. And even though we did nothing wrong and we were like the detachment of the, we were really in the running for detachment of the year. ⁓ they just didn't like somebody that was able to be a staff and CEO to make decisions and actually follow through with it. And I was told, no, no uncertain terms, like, Hey, well, that could be a good CEO.
James: Mm-hmm.
Gregg Jones: If you call me every week, I said, well, I don't need to call you every week because we're, we got it under control here. And so that was a jealousy that was sitting in, ⁓ with the battalion and the, the company CEO. One of the things I really, really, ⁓ despise was, when the invasion took place in Kuwait and where embassy was, ⁓ under siege, which I call it, not inside internal, but external. And when we went out and was able to extract these two, uh, office of military cooperation, East sevens, I was put in by Georgia DeBell, which at the time she was the, uh, deputy chief of station. I mean, she was, I'm sorry. She was the, uh, D E M C, um, DCM there. And she wrote us up for a Navy Marine Corps medal. because it was really hectic. ⁓ And her father had been a Marine and she knew exactly what was going on there and how severe the situation was. And so how we had to fight our way in, ⁓ take a couple of hits, you know, there was, like I said, there was blood around the area. So she wrote herself for that. And I had a young Lance Corporal and this is something that people don't realize. You know, the colonels can make the determination of what they want to do, but those Lance Corporals need to.
James: Mm-hmm.
Gregg Jones: type up that, ⁓ the, ⁓ either the NAM or Navy accommodation, whatever it may be. And, and so the company CEO and the battalion CEO got together and he overheard them say that I would, I'll be damned if Jones and Scott gets A higher medal than we have they're enlisted.
James: Mm-hmm.
Gregg Jones: So that's the thing that I get really upset with because we were under stress and we were doing what we just doing. And then when he finally was able to come in the country, they both came in because they wanted to walk the front lines because we were the only ones that were in a hot situation and they wanted to write themselves up for a medal, which was I thought was that's behind scenes because I got that directly from one of the admin guys back at the battalion that that's what they were gonna do.
James: Sure. Can you, you you bring up an interesting point and this is what I think some people don't understand and it's part of the uniqueness of the MSG program. Can you talk about the relationship and the dynamic between the detachment itself and then the administrative chain of command, which is the Marine Corps? Sometimes the Marine Corps doesn't like the fact that they're not the operational chain of command. They are the administrative chain of command and a lot of Marines get frustrated with that. And that relationship between the detachment company, now region and battalion or now group headquarters. Can you talk about what that's like and how difficult that relationship can be to manage?
Gregg Jones: Yeah, I, know, because what happens at, you know, when you go through selection, I think James, you were a watch stand and you know this.
James: Mm-hmm.
Gregg Jones: It's a very hard selection process to make it through. Now, what they say when you first go to the school that, you know, you're like 66 % of the people get dropped for one reason or another. And plus we have to go through and get a top secret clearance. And then if you lie on that and you have to do a psyche valve. So there's a lot that goes on. One of it is that you have to be pretty much in a top 2 % of the Marine Corps at the time with your fit reps or your pro and cons. What you've done in your career to be able to go on this ⁓ prestigious place, this, onto other embassies throughout the world and be an ambassador for the United States. But the company seems like, like they just always seem to say that they always carried orders in their briefcase. And there's always a threat analysis every time they come in. I don't know if it's changed. hope it has changed, but they would come in and always say, you know, I have a set of orders here. I can relieve you. What are you doing? And then one of the big quotes that they would say, and they couldn't understand was, well, you've gone state. In other words, you forgot the Marine Corps and now you're playing the state department. Well, that's untrue because you have to live in that backyard with those people. And so you have to be able to understand what diplomatic people do and what Marines do. And you have a fine balance between being a good ambassador that helps the embassy. with the security issues and making sure every day that you have Marines that are looking the best they can be. They're assisting the State Department and making sure everybody's secure. And then we do sweeps at night where these young Marines go out there and these are guys that are 1920 and I have them utmost respect in them, that they had to go through each office, look for top secret or secret classification materials, find it, and then write them up and then put them in a secure area until the next day. So the company in the battalion, they seem like they're almost like step parents, if that makes any sense to you. They're not really in charge of you, but they want to discipline you, but they can't discipline you because they're not in charge of you. then you have your regional security officer, which is your civilian chain of command. And I used to, I think that was the biggest dread that I have now. I was fortunate enough to start in Switzerland first. And what was nice about that, I, when I went to school, I wasn't very savvy on the computers. And so even in the school, they were, they first recommended that they drop me. But I tell you what, the guy I respect the most and to this day is Captain Pollock. He was in charge of the, of the schooling. And he said, there's no way that Jones is not going to go out there and embassy because he had is impeccable, you know, and the Marine impeccable record book, the Marines loved, you know, We had a great relationship between watch standards and myself. And he's seen that possible leadership ability to do our job. So when I first arrived in Switzerland, the detachment commander lost his father. So I was the detachment commander for that time. And then his mother had passed away. So I was in charge for about, I don't know, 75 days as a detachment commander. Well, when I first got out there, I had, like I said, a learning curve. on the paperwork, but once I got out there, it took me about a week and I learned this. mean, I'm not, you know, it was such an easy thing. And then they're telling you in school battalion side of it, well, you know, you're not qualified to be out there. And then it turns around that I'm the one that actually reacted safely with another Marine in a foreign country, in a hostile country, and was able to rescue a couple of guys that were almost going to be killed and receiving the NAM, a downgrade from what I was originally put in with the Navy Marine Corps medal. and downgraded because the company or the battalion CEO didn't have one. they had, you know, they just didn't want to give enlisted people that credit. And I'm sure there's Marines out there that had gone through this where the colonels come in or the captain that does the admin. Like every time I had an inspection, we did fantastic. We passed flying colors. The PFT was solid. And matter of fact, we were going to be the detachment of the year in Sena, Yemen. And then what they call us commander points and because they despised us so much because we were that good and didn't need somebody to babysit us, they gave the extra points to Morocco so they could be what they call commander points of five points to get them to beat us by, they beat us by one point. So I think we had like a 94 and they were at a lower level and they gave them the five points and they were at 95. And that's why we didn't win. detachment of the year from the company. And it really, you know, I was trying to keep the morale up for my Marines that were under stress performing. I mean, the, the, the sergeants and below were just, tell you what, I would take them anywhere in the world at any given day. Cause they were, they were like the best of the professionals. And yet we were still looked at because we didn't need assistance on moving from the old embassy to the new embassy. or we didn't need extra people to come in because we were handled under control. And that's a lot of that jealousy factor that happens. And it's because they don't get the chance to be in the trenches, but they want to be in the trenches. But when something happens, I had the CEO come in and on post one, he chewed me out and said, what the hell were you thinking? You broke all the protocols. You shouldn't have left the embassy. You shouldn't have took a Marine out there.
James: Mm-hmm.
Gregg Jones: And I frankly said to Colonel Messick, said, look, you can go ahead and you can, you can kick me out of the Corps. You can relieve me. You can do whatever you needed to do, but I could not live with my whole life. Listen to that voice at nighttime calling out for help. If I didn't at least attempt to go out there and rescue these guys with my Marine. So you can do what the hell you want to do to me. And you know, you can relieve me, whatever you want to do. And I'm sure there's a lot of deck commanders out there that felt that pressure. Even though we weren't doing anything wrong, it was like a bully attitude. And that's the only thing I really, really despised on how the Marine Corps handled it. And I'd hope they had changed that attitude going forward.
James: Yeah, I mean, just talking to MSG's over the different generations, it does seem like that relationship has improved dramatically. And I think that's something that's constantly evolving. But even when I was on the program, which was 20 years ago now, there is something I always felt where The Marines who served at the company group region level, they weren't MSG's and they're not trained the same way and they don't understand the day to day. And the challenges of having two chains of command as a MSG detachment commander or watchtaker is difficult because essentially you have to listen to your civilian chain of command because those are the operational folks. But the Marine Corps, in my experience, historically has always hated that. They do not like that. the State Department runs the detachments operationally. And it's always been a fine line in terms of who you have to listen to and sometimes how you have to please both masters in a way that doesn't get you in trouble, but also fulfills the mission. Except at end of the day, what the State Department says goes and that tension, I would say it's probably rare, but it certainly does exist. And the detachment commanders feel that the most, right?
Gregg Jones: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, the pressure is, the pressure is immense. It comes from the Marine Corps at the time. I don't know if to how they, how they, hopefully they, they, ⁓ do a better screening process, but here's the case in point. So, so our company CEO thought that we were doing something illegal and he had a, a Sergeant that was going to marry his daughter. So what do you think he does? He sends him in like undercover to Yemen and the Sergeant that came in, he, He told me right away, this is what the Colonel thinks. And the Colonel called him within a week and he, I was there when he was talking to him. He's like, look, these guys are squared away. This detachment is probably the best one with inside Bravo Company. They have everything under control. They know where their weapons are. They know where the ammo are, they control their money. They don't have a lot of wild parties and the training's going on. They're under a lot of stress and really disappointed the CEO because he thought that again, that, you know, a lot of the detachment commanders, and I'm going to tell you this straight up. A lot of the master sergeants and gunnies and staff and CEOs, and even the sergeants are happened to be filling in for the detachment commander. 99 % of them don't do anything illegal. And there's always going to be a small group that does something stupid. And that happens. Maybe a guy got. too many beers or said something stupid. But for the most part, these guys have their careers on the line and they're in the top 2 % of the Marine Corps, even a watt standers. And they're treated like they're a stepchild in that back in the day, now again, I hope it's changed, but back in the day, like we're always under the gun from the Marine Corps because they always thought that we were doing something illegal, which is totally far as far as from the truth. And they hated that, especially with staff and CEOs that are able to control their own destiny and be able to work both sides and do it correctly with the state department and yet still be a Marine. And they could not understand that. They needed to micromanage every single bit of what happened in every part of our lives, which was totally uncalled for. And then we would get our inspections about every six months or so, once a year, depends what it is. Now here's a case in point. and it's the inspections, which Marines out there already know that they go through the money, the food, you know, all the stuff that training and everything else that goes on with it. But you know, the problem is the troops really felt the pressure. I mean, when, the CEOs come in, ⁓ they're always at that point where they're just, they look like they're just ready. all, like they say, I got orders of my, this is what, this was the number one thing. I got orders in my suitcase here to relieve you if I need to. Well, you know what, sir, if you need to do it, go ahead and do it, you know? And these guys, some call them out the bluffs and they're just like, I don't know what they're trying to do, but I hopefully, I really hopeful that this has changed ⁓ with this kind of, know, from when I went through it, which is years ago, which was it just a total farce because we did everything correct. And we never went out of our way to do anything illegal because I knew my career was on the line. And I was not going to, I had like at that time I had three hash marks. So was like four, you know, what is that 12, 14 years in, I wasn't going to do anything illegal to get myself in trouble, but they could not understand that.
James: Yeah Right. Yeah, I think you know, especially today I think that relationship has definitely improved not just with the you know administrative training of command in the marine corps But also with the state department I think that's something they've really honed in on because really to be successful you have to have good relationships both ways but can you talk about What it's like serving in a place like Yemen in in terms of were you able to go out? What was the dynamic like? Where did the Marines live? Liberty, what were all those things like working in a country that is essentially hostile?
Gregg Jones: Thanks. Well, I tell you the funny thing was, alcohol in a Muslim country is very hard to come by, almost to the point where you can't find it. But the souq is where the locals went and they would sell lapis and different things like that. Now you can, before the invasion took place, you could mingle down there and they'd always watch you. There's always somebody looking over your shoulder. You're always looking over your shoulder as who's watching you. But there was nothing like they would go to maybe the Canadian ⁓ embassy in Yemen or they go to the British embassy. They would go to a Western, you know, the French, and then they would intermingle with people from different countries or the other countries would come to our Marine house and they would, you know, exchange ideas and talk and have some type of semblance of a relationship outside of the State Department or outside the Marine Corps, just trying to be a human. But a country that's at the time, think it was like the, it was rated as the 10th worst country to be stationed at. think the number one was like in China. A couple of them were in China. Djibouti was another one. And Yemen was right there. You know, they would change section between one and 10 would change every day, depends on what the climate was. But the Marines, which was really, ⁓ what I really had a lot of respect in is that, you know, they, they were focused on the embassy, the security, because they knew that in a country like they were in, that it was extremely important for them to make sure that everybody was secure and safe as much as possible. And then at the same time, they would be able to go out with our driver or an interpreter to go shop in a local area. But as far as any type of social behaviors outside of the embassy, was only to the other Western influence embassies because there was nowhere to go in Yemen. I was... extremely proud of every single one of my watch standards that, you know, back then they were hardcore. They, they, you know, they didn't have any anxiety problems as some of them do today in the Marine Corps. ⁓ They were straight up sergeants, corporals. would pick a litter, but yet sometimes, like I said, ⁓ they would treat us like a stepchild. And in case in point, I'm going to, Add this other thing in this caveat, what happened with the office of military cooperation when we were able to rescue these two Marines, the Colonel was a full bird Colonel of the army. And, ⁓ he wanted to put us in for an army combination metal, ⁓ because of what we did for these two guys and our CEO, a company CEO would not even give him a respect and talk to him. He told me, I don't want to talk to him. Even though this guy was a senior at the embassy, he did not. want to speak to him because again, it would have elevated our company or I mean our embassy, our detachment. And for whatever reason, he just did not like that idea. But there was no, there was no type of liberty for the Marines there other than the other embassies.
James: Now, said you also served in Switzerland. Can you talk about the contrast between working in a place like Switzerland and then going to a place like Yemen?
Gregg Jones: Oh my goodness. You know, I was in Switzerland and I was able to bring my family. I had three kids at the time and a wife and, and the money is different. The, um, the Liberty is different. Everything's different. And that's the thing that really got me. That's what I learned a lot because in Switzerland and then lot of the watch standards know this, you get to a nice country, you can get to Netherlands, Sweden, whatever these young men, there was a lot of good looking girls out there. And these Marines were well-dressed, well-groomed. so Liberty for them was, it was just like, you can go skiing one day in the French side of the Alps, and then the next day you could be on a train going through Europe. I mean, these guys, that was a beautiful area to be at. But the importance of Switzerland, people don't realize, especially the US mission, that's right next door to the UN. And so we were visited. during the time I was in was during the Russian talks with the Schultz and Shevronazi and they were signing agreements with the nuclear talks. And so it was really dicey, you know, at points, ⁓ you know, and if you don't know Switzerland, I think it's probably known to have the most terrorists in the world because it's a neutral country, but their idea is ⁓ don't blow up your backyard because we won't ⁓ laundry any of your money. So. So anyways, wouldn't be something, it would not be a ⁓ surprise that if one of our Marines, you know, happened to walk into an area where, you know, you might want to just not go in because they knew that maybe some, at that time, the Polish intelligence or something would be in there. And that was definitely off limits. And we, at the time, we could not go to Eastern Germany or any Soviet block countries. So, but they did have ⁓ great liberty. Food was great and then we had a cola because it was so expensive but the Marines survived and they did very well with all the How would you say it all the enticements that they had out there and they did I was really? ⁓ Really surprised on how well they did do out there, but it was a beautiful place
James: Now, as a detachment commander, you did two posts. Can you take us back to how you ended up on the MSG program to begin with?
Gregg Jones: Yeah, I was, I've been very fortunate and I think my whole career, I come from a family of Marines. I think I told you earlier, my aunt was a Marine in World War II, my uncle was a Marine at Iwo Jima, my father was a Marine under Chesty Puller in Korea. And so I had been raised, you know, pretty much in a Marine family and atmosphere going forward, you know, understanding the ins and outs and everything else. I was working at the time I was in a border transport night. We had a unit that was really messed up in inspection and they actually failed. And I was brought in from another company to get it right. I was, the Colonel had told me at the time, he says, Jones, if you can get us to pass this inspection, you can do whatever you want to do. And at that time I was always living in a tent out in the field and you know. more to teasing that the pride of the Marine Corps, but I was a mechanic. And so we did a lot of deployments at that time. And I wanted to get into aviation. That's what started my whole, my whole journey. ⁓ and they did, and we passed with an excellent grade. The Colonel, ⁓ held up to his bargain and I wanted to move over to aviation, which I got into EAS, or A6s at the time. And then, ⁓ that's what started from the East coast. And then I was with VMA 533, which was the greatest A6 squadron ever. to be assembled with Charlie Carr as the CEO. ⁓ And then came off a very successful ⁓ deployment to the Mediterranean. I was put in for another NAMM, which I received the NAMM for being in charge of ⁓ on top of the flight deck and some other things. We also had a huge inspection and we got an accommodation for ⁓ being the best. the best unit at that time with the inspection throughout the Marine Corps. ⁓ So that kind of like put the T across the T for me. And then I went to my Colonel there and I said, Hey, I know I'm get hammered with a special duty and I didn't want to do drill instructor. And I sure didn't want to do recruiting and my hats off to those two groups. But I took the third one, which was MSG and I went to my Colonel and said, Hey, Colonel Winslow was his name. And I said, I'd like to go on Marine security guard. And he said, absolutely. ⁓ You pulled us out of a lot of problems and you received a Navy achievement medal for your hard work on the flight deck and everything else you did for the inspections. And that's what took off my career. And then I went to MSG school, got selected and then everything else after that is just, went through the process of the school and graduated and went to Switzerland. And then after that I went to Yemen.
James: Sure. Now, a lot of the people who listen to this podcast are Marines who are considering MSG duty. What would you tell them?
Gregg Jones: You know, personally, would say I would recommend everybody that even if they're watch standards or even good staff and CEOs to do it because it's a once in a lifetime opportunity. And I'll tell you why I was able to meet dignitaries like the secretary of state Schultz. I was able to have ⁓ ambassador Patron, which was at Geneva, which a fantastic ambassador loved him dearly. Him and his wife was, was just, I mean, out of this world. I had some really good regional security officers, one in Yemen, and Patrick was his name, and then I had one over in ⁓ Geneva, which I enjoyed too. Pete was his name over there. And I would recommend that they do that. I think it's an eye-opener. ⁓ It gives you some credibility within your record book, saying if you went to a special duty on your own without having to be picked to go to drill field or to the ⁓ recruiting that... choose out of the three and do it because not only does it help you with your career, you also go through a top secret clearance is, I mean, they don't mess around. they go back to their childhood and then once you get the top secret clearance, that's value to you as your career goes on. And then also you do a psyche value, pass the psyche value. That's credentials going forward. And, you know, I've seen a lot of Marines get off of MSG and get into law enforcement or other kinds of diplomatic securities because they already went through a background check with the top secret and had a, you know, a good evaluation on the mental stability. So I would recommend that, especially if you're a staff NCO, to try to get into that. But again, you know, don't be like I was. And ⁓ I had an instructor that was You know, he always liked people to fail, but never seemed to want people to succeed except for Captain Pollock seen me and I was just blessed by that man. ⁓ But I highly recommend anybody that has the opportunity to go on the brain security guard.
James: Sure. Now you mentioned all the things that it does for your Marine Corps career and there's no doubt about that. You're certainly, you know, the top 2 % of the Marine Corps. What about personally in terms of the development? You get to see different countries experience things because we talk about being stationed in these other countries and a lot of times service members or Marines look at that the same way it would be if you're stationed in Japan or Germany. And it's not really like that because you don't have the, the
Gregg Jones: you
James: base. You're living within the local community. What do you learn about yourself or how does that help you personally in those kind of situations?
Gregg Jones: Yeah, you know, I think the one thing that really opened my eye, you know, I came from a background of a poor family and, know, we had little to eat, but I never really had a bad life. But what it did do, it teaches you when you're out there how to be somewhat of a diplomat. I mean, you you go out to the post, And you're just a raw individual from the United States. And what it did teach me was grace. It taught me how to be ⁓ forceful in a way that didn't upset the people. And it actually helped me in my whole life to understand that the world is bigger than your backyard and whether it be a Camp Desjune or Camp Pendleton. And you live in a beautiful house. You get taken care of typically, I mean, from the embassies, they take care of your needs and definitely a lot of your wants. But it also, it shows a different perspective on how other people live. Now, again, when I went to Yemen, you know, we have these people here in America that ⁓ somewhat despise United States, whatever reason. But everybody in Yemen wanted to come to America, right? Because ⁓ the land's opportunities and I like, as you have, you've had a hard post, couple of them, but I'd like the idea that it help you understand the world in a better perspective, that we are a blessed country and a lot of the countries rely on us to be that powerhouse. so that we are able to keep the world going round and round. And I think that's the important thing that I learned that we aren't a second class citizen and United States is respected throughout the world.
James: Mm-hmm. That's one of those things where I think if you pay attention when you are on embassy duty It really gives you that perspective because yes, you're in your own little post one you're doing your job and that's a big deal, but if you Take a second to look at what is happening around you. You really are witnessing history and diplomacy and just how our government functions and how other Cultures and other people look at the United States and what I found is when I came back to the US after having been overseas for a number of years is I was more appreciative of a lot of the things we have in the United States. I know that sounds really cliche, but what really would drive those things home for me is when, let's just say you were in line at Starbucks to get coffee and people are complaining about, know, whatever trivial things are complaining about. In those first couple of years that I was back, you have that reflection of, well, you know, I was in Togo and this happened, or when I was in Iraq, you know, we're complaining about lines and you're, you these people don't even have food. That's an important perspective that I don't think a lot of Americans see day to day. And sometimes it being overseas like that helps you remember those things.
Gregg Jones: absolutely, especially like in a third world country like Yemen. by the, by the grace of God, we could have been born until a third world country, not knowing what we have today. And here I am sitting in my house in Florida with air conditioning. And yet I put on 20 years to defend my country because I lost a knock on World War II. He got, he was shot down in a B 17 and killed. Um, and our family is a lot that serve and we believe in our country. I would just. I'm glad that the Marines were out there that did a good successful tour, understand how lucky we really are to live in this country.
James: Well said. Now before we conclude today, do you have any closing words,
Gregg Jones: No, I, I, uh, I think, you know, the experience, uh, what I brought from, um, learning from Switzerland, which was a, a very diplomatic, uh, you know, we, we had our Marine Corps birthday there and we probably, I think we had 400 people attending out of that 300 were dignitaries. mean, I'm talking three stars, two stars. had, uh, foreign leaders from all over the world sitting in that area and listening to and looking at Marines in dress blues. Um, You know, and, and, and, know, you have ambassadors and you just got a whole bunch of head of states. And I appreciate that experience. And then I went to Yemen and I learned how, ⁓ how important the Marines are. ⁓ and how we look in our blues. I, ⁓ I just love our uniforms and our esprit de corps. But the one thing I would, I would bring to everybody else and what it helped me do was, ⁓ I was able to take off and I went to Ukraine. when the war broke out and to bring people, women and children across the border to Poland and Czech Republic, why the guys were fighting in the front lines. And then I was able to go over to Sudan for six months in the middle of the jungle and train villagers how to take care of themselves, biblically and militarily, and then also in Uganda. So the experience I experienced in Yemen helped me prepare me to go to other foreign countries and be an impact to other people. and to bring that resiliency of the United States to be there, whether you're in uniform or not, to be able to be that kind of person that feels like you owe your country something. And I will always be indebted to the United States ever until I pass away. But I just hope that those young people out there that don't realize like my uncle that got killed in combat. and other Marines that got killed in combat and throughout the Iraqi and Afghanistan. And that they would take this country very serious and be proud of wearing that uniform and being proud to be on that post when the stuff hits the fan. So that's what I take away is I just encourage people, young people, especially to get involved and to go out to other countries and see how they live.
James: Mm hmm. Retired Gunnery Sergeant Greg Jones. Thanks for taking the time.
Gregg Jones: Yes, sir. Thank you, James, for having me.
Gregg Jones: Hey, thanks, James, for having me.
James: Now, Greg, you were the detachment commander at the American Embassy in Yemen in the late ⁓ and you actually earned a NAMM for your service there. Can you talk about how you managed to earn that NAMM? Welcome to the Post One Podcast. I'm James Curry, Marine Veteran and Prior MSG. On today's episode, retired gunnery sergeant Greg Jones, a detachment commander who served in Switzerland and Yemen, he broke protocol, left the embassy, and fought through a mob to rescue two American servicemen who were about to be killed.
Gregg Jones: Yeah, I tell you, ⁓ Yemen's a very unique ⁓ area to be at. And back in the day, what people don't realize is ⁓ Al Qaeda was running through there. ⁓ Bin Laden was ⁓ in the villages and up in the by ⁓ Aden. And so what had happened, so it had been a hotbed for terrorism and ISIS and all that stuff that was going on. And what had happened was one night ⁓ I was on post and I was relieved in my one of my watch standards and over the radio because we had radio connection with the office of military cooperation was in the country training Yemeni the army military tactics and one of the over the radio about 11 o'clock at night we hear a voice that says help me help me and I knew the voice because voice recognition, you know how it is in the military. Everybody, you you know who's on the phone or, you know, I've known these guys. So I decided that at that time it was pretty, pretty hostile with inside by the embassy. think the invasion was taking place pretty soon.
James: Mm-hmm.
Gregg Jones: And so we broke protocol and I went out with one of my Marines coming off post and we had one of our drivers take us and I knew the location. I kind of figured it out. We rolled up. There was about a hundred Yemenis or so that were trying to pry open the doors to the vehicles where these two office of cooperation, military cooperation guys were in. And they were actually trying to kill them. And so they had run, somebody had run a vehicle into them. and then a whole bunch of people were trying to pry their doors open. So myself, when I had a one watch standard with me, he was a corporal. I just use his name, Corporal Scott, because I, you know, any, I haven't had any authorization to use his last name, but we rolled up and I knew right away there was an issue. So we got in and we got hands on, ⁓ with the Yemenis. ⁓ we start fighting them and, ⁓ Corporal Scott was a pretty big guy. He was throwing a few around and we just really started getting hyper. It really started to be a big problem ⁓ security wise. And so as we were fighting our way in to get into the vehicle to see how bad these guys were, ⁓ we realized that they were pretty, pretty messed up. ⁓ Over there, they had bulletproof vehicles and glass and the passenger, ⁓ hit his head, I found out later he broke his neck. had a couple of shoulders separated. He had some other issues. turned him in an internal and the driver is I think it's his sternum was separated and he was really messed up. He was actually out. And so we were able to perform first aid on the passenger the first time to get him out of there. By this time, the embassy, one of the DIA, the defense at the Shays happened to show up and we were able to actually physically pick him up and take him to that vehicle to take him to the embassy. ⁓ And so he took off with him and we had had safe-having training, which was a godsend because we had that probably a week before. So we were pretty much on top of how to perform first aid. And so we got him out of the right. right away, because he was somewhat able to walk. ⁓ And so we had to assist him over there. But at this time, Corporal Scott and myself had went back to the fight while the major took him back to the embassy. So that put us in a quantum because now we have a problem. We have a driver that's totally out. We could tell that he's breathing hard and he's having some issues breathing. So we had to protect him at the same time to get him out of there, Then what happened was, I don't know why, but the ambassador decides to show up on the scene with his Cadillac, because he hears over the radio chatter. And that started another crowd from trying to go after him. And so we had to push him back in the vehicle. His name was Ambassador Dunbar. And we had to push him back in the vehicle and tell the driver to get him back to the embassy, because now the crowd was really starting to form and they were just really going after us. And as we're fighting, physically fighting with them, We were, I got to the driver's side and I was able to do first aid with him to try to keep him out of shock because he was pretty bad off. And we thought that I thought he was going to be dead. You know, he would die on the scene. And then an ambulance showed up from ⁓ the locals and we were able to extract him out of the vehicle, still unconscious, provide him with ⁓ shock treatment. and to get him out of there so they can medevac them both to Germany for medical treatment.
James: So it sounds like it was ⁓ a pretty dangerous situation all around there.
Gregg Jones: Yeah, it was because in Yemen, they all have guns and they all have knives. And so there was blood around the area. There was some faces getting smashed as we were trained. So I just thank God that the other Marine that was with me was a big country boy and he was able to pretty much keep them off of me while I'm performing first aid on this ⁓ E-7 from the Office of Military Cooperation. ⁓ and then it just really turned south and it was more of a time of hurry up, let's get them out of here because, ⁓ they were, the crowd was really getting violent. And if you understand the country of Yemen, they, they wanted it not like Americans, ⁓ at all. And, two, they, wanted, ⁓ some type of revenge because they felt that the, the American consulate wasn't doing enough to help them getting their visas back to the, you know, into the United States.
James: what was Yemen like, you know, in the late 80s? I think we think of Yemen today or even today as a war-torn country. What was it like serving there at that time?
Gregg Jones: Well, what happened is I was put in a position there. ⁓ I think I was hand selected by somebody from the old embassy or out of, was, my original station was Geneva, Switzerland. And what had happened, we had an old embassy when I was first there and it would rain and the walls would fall down. And there was only like one camera, two alarms. It was really a place that we should not be at. And they were building. brand new compound about probably half an hour away, but it was a 25 acre brand new embassy. It had like a hundred alarms, 25 cameras, which was needed because Yemen was a, I tell people it's like Queen of Sheba time. It's so back in the time of where progress has not even begun there. I think most of the roads were dirt. very few ⁓ paved highways. And it was just a really, as far as I can say, is a back hills type, Lena Sheba type day, ⁓ era where ⁓ people lived and it was really tribalistic back then.
James: Now, during your time in Yemen, things did get a little bit dangerous in terms of the embassy because you had to help evacuate the embassy. Can you walk us through how that happened?
Gregg Jones: Yeah. So what had happened was we moved into the new embassy, thank goodness, because if we would have been in the old embassy, you would have had another Iran problem very easily. they call the ACC council, which was the Arab cooperation council, had a convention or a meeting in Yemen. And the countries that were there was the participated was Jordan. ⁓ Egypt, Iraq, and Yemen. And so when we were there, we understood that there was a conference going on, but we really didn't have any intelligence to tell us what it was about. And then about three days later, was over, the fourth or fifth day after the council, sometime really soon, ⁓ they invaded, Iraq invaded Kuwait. And that's when it really, really got... you know, dicey out there. You know, we wake up one day, know, everything's somewhat calm. And the very next day we have a hundred thousand Yemenis out there, know, Trenton that they want to kill America, ⁓ destroying the front part of where the embassy is. And only thing that was, what really was a saving grace is that we had a standoff from the front gate, which we didn't have before in the old embassy. And so we weren't getting any support. from the local government, which was ⁓ President Sala at the time. And so if you look at the UN votes, they were voting against the United States and it's just really riled up the crowd. We're at a point they were trying to come over the wall. But so Washington, DC made the decision to evacuate everybody out of there. ⁓ And we were on the local news, I guess, what I heard from my mother was that You know, CNN had said the United States embassy in Sonata, Yemen was stormed. And, and needless to say, she was quite upset thinking that, you know, here we go again. 1979 was Iran, you know, in the 19, I think early 90, I think it was, was here in Yemen. So, um, they, Washington DC, um, uh, determined that they, need to get all the non-essential personnel out of there. So we had to. take our families and embassy personnel and get them with a chartered plane to get them to the actual, you know, to the airport to get them ⁓ evacuated out of there. And I think there was like just myself, our six Marines, and I think maybe 10 or maybe 11, 12 people at the most that were there still at the embassy. And so they had went to, they ordered us to go to Zero Burn. What that means is anything that's top secret, secret, confidential needs to be shredded because they believed ⁓ that this was really not the best situation that was happening with us. And so they had authorized to get rid of all classified. And so basically what happened was all the Marines that were there, we had one on post, we had one sleep in myself, and then the other four Marines would be shredding. they, you know, they did it right though. because they had a bunch of 007 shredders to shred classified and downstairs they had a like a dicing machine that you just, it rolls and you throw books in there, classified books, and they just tears it up in small little fragments, not like they did in Afghanistan where they used to use the old burn type system where they found out there was classified.
James: Can you talk about? know what an embassy evacuation is like because it it seems like it's very chaotic ⁓ it's not necessarily something that MSG is trained for at the schoolhouse a lot of times you're relying on you know ⁓ stuff you know about the embassy once you get there Can you talk about what that's like and then what the MSG's role is in terms of with the RSO and the rest of the embassy community?
Gregg Jones: Yeah, so what had happened when the invasion of Kuwait took place, ⁓ you know, was really hectic because everything just kind of whatever was in any type of simulated some kind of, I don't know, ⁓ peaceful environment, if you could say that. ⁓ Washington, DC came back and authorized the evacuation of all non-central personnel. So what that did with us was... ⁓ I remember we sent the office of military cooperation, sent a message back to DC and said, Hey, ⁓ we're in trouble. ⁓ And they came back with a message that said, you know, get right with your God, good luck. All assets have been deployed. so we felt that because it was such a, you know, the land of death, I mean, the line of the desert where they sent 2,500 Marines, were pretty much on our own. So we had to come up with a plan that we would take ⁓ our people down and we carried our firearms going in that situation so that we can get them evacuated out. But yeah, people were leaving things that they had that leave things there at their house. It was whatever you could pretty much carry and to get out of there. So we had run in ways because we had about 200 personnel that was actually assigned, you know, with that had to get evacuated out of there. So we went into cloak at night. and, and there was, I get to admit there was one, it was, ⁓ our driver was loyal to us because I remember taking my family to the airport and all of a sudden we look in the desert, we see his headlights coming and it really me on edge because I thought, ⁓ my goodness, here they, here they're coming after my family. And I was, his name was Ahmed was my driver. I said, Ahmed, what is going on? And he said, ⁓ don't, don't worry, Mr. Gunny. Don't worry, Mr. Gunny. This is my tribe to protect your family, to go to the airport. And I was like, Whoa. So they came in with Toyota Jeeps and they had, I don't know, 30 millimeter guns in there and machine guns. So there was about eight of them that came in to actually surround my family and to take us to the airport, which I was really impressed with. And I was really grateful for it because not everybody got that type of transportation or security to go there. And, we used to take care of our guards and our drivers. You know, we'd always give them cigarettes because we could buy them in at the embassy and we'd give them favors of Cokes and, know, cartons of cigarettes. And then I had some extra sugar and some of the tribes had a problem getting the sugar, like the C8 sugar. which is finally great, now, granulated, and they loved that for making our sweets, you the cookies. And so we'd give them like 15, 20 pounds of it. So they actually returned a favor to protect us, but it was hectic because we had no support from our government. The Yemeni government was either, they were voting against the United States at the UN, and the personnel, the Yemenis were out there demonstrating.
James: Mm-hmm.
Gregg Jones: Like I said, there was probably 30 every day, there was 30, 40, 50,000. And so we were trying to make the best of what we had to get the people to the airport and then be able to get them medevaced out or get them evacuated out of there. First stop was in Germany and then wherever they went for a home. But it was awful chaotic because I have my Marines were shredding. So I'm with the RSO, the regional security officer and the ambassador. And another organization that happened to be there in the Office of Military Cooperation making a plan to how we're going to get them evacuated out. So for that initial, that initial thrust of realizing, hey, we're on our own, we're not going to get any support. ⁓ We have to figure out how to do this. And so that was one of our really challenging goals, but we were able to put a plan together and to get them evacuated out of there safely.
James: Mm-hmm. Sure. So, you know, you sound really calm telling this story, but what was it like? What were you thinking? Were you scared? Were you worried?
Gregg Jones: ⁓ you know, I don't know if we were scared. We were just focused. mean, you know, when we really didn't prepare for it, but that's one of the problems I found out with, ⁓ I don't know, some other guys out there or women with the embassies and the, ⁓ the battalion or company CEOs. was not impressed with those people because what had happened was, you know,
James: Mm-hmm.
Gregg Jones: I ⁓ came out of aviation, I was A6 and I was in charge of the flight deck, which is really, really hectic up there. So I was able to take that experience from being on a flight deck in charge of the Marine squadron up there and to put that into sense, like ⁓ what was going on with the evacuation. Because the flight deck is one of the dangerous places and it's hectic and you got to have your head on a swivel and that's pretty much what I brought to the table. But what was really funny, even when we moved into the new embassy, our company CEO, and I'll call him out, Lieutenant Colonel Messick, he had an issue that we were able to move ourselves without having to have five or six or seven extra watch standards because we were pretty organized and we didn't do anything illegal. we didn't, I always tell my Marines, the things that's going to get us to jail and the watch standards out there know this, is alcohol money. ammo and guns, right? So if you get drunk, you can get in trouble. But they would always come in with an attitude like, Hey, you know, we're going to relieve you. We're going to relieve you. And even though we did nothing wrong and we were like the detachment of the, we were really in the running for detachment of the year. ⁓ they just didn't like somebody that was able to be a staff and CEO to make decisions and actually follow through with it. And I was told, no, no uncertain terms, like, Hey, well, that could be a good CEO.
James: Mm-hmm.
Gregg Jones: If you call me every week, I said, well, I don't need to call you every week because we're, we got it under control here. And so that was a jealousy that was sitting in, ⁓ with the battalion and the, the company CEO. One of the things I really, really, ⁓ despise was, when the invasion took place in Kuwait and where embassy was, ⁓ under siege, which I call it, not inside internal, but external. And when we went out and was able to extract these two, uh, office of military cooperation, East sevens, I was put in by Georgia DeBell, which at the time she was the, uh, deputy chief of station. I mean, she was, I'm sorry. She was the, uh, D E M C, um, DCM there. And she wrote us up for a Navy Marine Corps medal. because it was really hectic. ⁓ And her father had been a Marine and she knew exactly what was going on there and how severe the situation was. And so how we had to fight our way in, ⁓ take a couple of hits, you know, there was, like I said, there was blood around the area. So she wrote herself for that. And I had a young Lance Corporal and this is something that people don't realize. You know, the colonels can make the determination of what they want to do, but those Lance Corporals need to.
James: Mm-hmm.
Gregg Jones: type up that, ⁓ the, ⁓ either the NAM or Navy accommodation, whatever it may be. And, and so the company CEO and the battalion CEO got together and he overheard them say that I would, I'll be damned if Jones and Scott gets A higher medal than we have they're enlisted.
James: Mm-hmm.
Gregg Jones: So that's the thing that I get really upset with because we were under stress and we were doing what we just doing. And then when he finally was able to come in the country, they both came in because they wanted to walk the front lines because we were the only ones that were in a hot situation and they wanted to write themselves up for a medal, which was I thought was that's behind scenes because I got that directly from one of the admin guys back at the battalion that that's what they were gonna do.
James: Sure. Can you, you you bring up an interesting point and this is what I think some people don't understand and it's part of the uniqueness of the MSG program. Can you talk about the relationship and the dynamic between the detachment itself and then the administrative chain of command, which is the Marine Corps? Sometimes the Marine Corps doesn't like the fact that they're not the operational chain of command. They are the administrative chain of command and a lot of Marines get frustrated with that. And that relationship between the detachment company, now region and battalion or now group headquarters. Can you talk about what that's like and how difficult that relationship can be to manage?
Gregg Jones: Yeah, I, know, because what happens at, you know, when you go through selection, I think James, you were a watch stand and you know this.
James: Mm-hmm.
Gregg Jones: It's a very hard selection process to make it through. Now, what they say when you first go to the school that, you know, you're like 66 % of the people get dropped for one reason or another. And plus we have to go through and get a top secret clearance. And then if you lie on that and you have to do a psyche valve. So there's a lot that goes on. One of it is that you have to be pretty much in a top 2 % of the Marine Corps at the time with your fit reps or your pro and cons. What you've done in your career to be able to go on this ⁓ prestigious place, this, onto other embassies throughout the world and be an ambassador for the United States. But the company seems like, like they just always seem to say that they always carried orders in their briefcase. And there's always a threat analysis every time they come in. I don't know if it's changed. hope it has changed, but they would come in and always say, you know, I have a set of orders here. I can relieve you. What are you doing? And then one of the big quotes that they would say, and they couldn't understand was, well, you've gone state. In other words, you forgot the Marine Corps and now you're playing the state department. Well, that's untrue because you have to live in that backyard with those people. And so you have to be able to understand what diplomatic people do and what Marines do. And you have a fine balance between being a good ambassador that helps the embassy. with the security issues and making sure every day that you have Marines that are looking the best they can be. They're assisting the State Department and making sure everybody's secure. And then we do sweeps at night where these young Marines go out there and these are guys that are 1920 and I have them utmost respect in them, that they had to go through each office, look for top secret or secret classification materials, find it, and then write them up and then put them in a secure area until the next day. So the company in the battalion, they seem like they're almost like step parents, if that makes any sense to you. They're not really in charge of you, but they want to discipline you, but they can't discipline you because they're not in charge of you. then you have your regional security officer, which is your civilian chain of command. And I used to, I think that was the biggest dread that I have now. I was fortunate enough to start in Switzerland first. And what was nice about that, I, when I went to school, I wasn't very savvy on the computers. And so even in the school, they were, they first recommended that they drop me. But I tell you what, the guy I respect the most and to this day is Captain Pollock. He was in charge of the, of the schooling. And he said, there's no way that Jones is not going to go out there and embassy because he had is impeccable, you know, and the Marine impeccable record book, the Marines loved, you know, We had a great relationship between watch standards and myself. And he's seen that possible leadership ability to do our job. So when I first arrived in Switzerland, the detachment commander lost his father. So I was the detachment commander for that time. And then his mother had passed away. So I was in charge for about, I don't know, 75 days as a detachment commander. Well, when I first got out there, I had, like I said, a learning curve. on the paperwork, but once I got out there, it took me about a week and I learned this. mean, I'm not, you know, it was such an easy thing. And then they're telling you in school battalion side of it, well, you know, you're not qualified to be out there. And then it turns around that I'm the one that actually reacted safely with another Marine in a foreign country, in a hostile country, and was able to rescue a couple of guys that were almost going to be killed and receiving the NAM, a downgrade from what I was originally put in with the Navy Marine Corps medal. and downgraded because the company or the battalion CEO didn't have one. they had, you know, they just didn't want to give enlisted people that credit. And I'm sure there's Marines out there that had gone through this where the colonels come in or the captain that does the admin. Like every time I had an inspection, we did fantastic. We passed flying colors. The PFT was solid. And matter of fact, we were going to be the detachment of the year in Sena, Yemen. And then what they call us commander points and because they despised us so much because we were that good and didn't need somebody to babysit us, they gave the extra points to Morocco so they could be what they call commander points of five points to get them to beat us by, they beat us by one point. So I think we had like a 94 and they were at a lower level and they gave them the five points and they were at 95. And that's why we didn't win. detachment of the year from the company. And it really, you know, I was trying to keep the morale up for my Marines that were under stress performing. I mean, the, the, the sergeants and below were just, tell you what, I would take them anywhere in the world at any given day. Cause they were, they were like the best of the professionals. And yet we were still looked at because we didn't need assistance on moving from the old embassy to the new embassy. or we didn't need extra people to come in because we were handled under control. And that's a lot of that jealousy factor that happens. And it's because they don't get the chance to be in the trenches, but they want to be in the trenches. But when something happens, I had the CEO come in and on post one, he chewed me out and said, what the hell were you thinking? You broke all the protocols. You shouldn't have left the embassy. You shouldn't have took a Marine out there.
James: Mm-hmm.
Gregg Jones: And I frankly said to Colonel Messick, said, look, you can go ahead and you can, you can kick me out of the Corps. You can relieve me. You can do whatever you needed to do, but I could not live with my whole life. Listen to that voice at nighttime calling out for help. If I didn't at least attempt to go out there and rescue these guys with my Marine. So you can do what the hell you want to do to me. And you know, you can relieve me, whatever you want to do. And I'm sure there's a lot of deck commanders out there that felt that pressure. Even though we weren't doing anything wrong, it was like a bully attitude. And that's the only thing I really, really despised on how the Marine Corps handled it. And I'd hope they had changed that attitude going forward.
James: Yeah, I mean, just talking to MSG's over the different generations, it does seem like that relationship has improved dramatically. And I think that's something that's constantly evolving. But even when I was on the program, which was 20 years ago now, there is something I always felt where The Marines who served at the company group region level, they weren't MSG's and they're not trained the same way and they don't understand the day to day. And the challenges of having two chains of command as a MSG detachment commander or watchtaker is difficult because essentially you have to listen to your civilian chain of command because those are the operational folks. But the Marine Corps, in my experience, historically has always hated that. They do not like that. the State Department runs the detachments operationally. And it's always been a fine line in terms of who you have to listen to and sometimes how you have to please both masters in a way that doesn't get you in trouble, but also fulfills the mission. Except at end of the day, what the State Department says goes and that tension, I would say it's probably rare, but it certainly does exist. And the detachment commanders feel that the most, right?
Gregg Jones: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, the pressure is, the pressure is immense. It comes from the Marine Corps at the time. I don't know if to how they, how they, hopefully they, they, ⁓ do a better screening process, but here's the case in point. So, so our company CEO thought that we were doing something illegal and he had a, a Sergeant that was going to marry his daughter. So what do you think he does? He sends him in like undercover to Yemen and the Sergeant that came in, he, He told me right away, this is what the Colonel thinks. And the Colonel called him within a week and he, I was there when he was talking to him. He's like, look, these guys are squared away. This detachment is probably the best one with inside Bravo Company. They have everything under control. They know where their weapons are. They know where the ammo are, they control their money. They don't have a lot of wild parties and the training's going on. They're under a lot of stress and really disappointed the CEO because he thought that again, that, you know, a lot of the detachment commanders, and I'm going to tell you this straight up. A lot of the master sergeants and gunnies and staff and CEOs, and even the sergeants are happened to be filling in for the detachment commander. 99 % of them don't do anything illegal. And there's always going to be a small group that does something stupid. And that happens. Maybe a guy got. too many beers or said something stupid. But for the most part, these guys have their careers on the line and they're in the top 2 % of the Marine Corps, even a watt standers. And they're treated like they're a stepchild in that back in the day, now again, I hope it's changed, but back in the day, like we're always under the gun from the Marine Corps because they always thought that we were doing something illegal, which is totally far as far as from the truth. And they hated that, especially with staff and CEOs that are able to control their own destiny and be able to work both sides and do it correctly with the state department and yet still be a Marine. And they could not understand that. They needed to micromanage every single bit of what happened in every part of our lives, which was totally uncalled for. And then we would get our inspections about every six months or so, once a year, depends what it is. Now here's a case in point. and it's the inspections, which Marines out there already know that they go through the money, the food, you know, all the stuff that training and everything else that goes on with it. But you know, the problem is the troops really felt the pressure. I mean, when, the CEOs come in, ⁓ they're always at that point where they're just, they look like they're just ready. all, like they say, I got orders of my, this is what, this was the number one thing. I got orders in my suitcase here to relieve you if I need to. Well, you know what, sir, if you need to do it, go ahead and do it, you know? And these guys, some call them out the bluffs and they're just like, I don't know what they're trying to do, but I hopefully, I really hopeful that this has changed ⁓ with this kind of, know, from when I went through it, which is years ago, which was it just a total farce because we did everything correct. And we never went out of our way to do anything illegal because I knew my career was on the line. And I was not going to, I had like at that time I had three hash marks. So was like four, you know, what is that 12, 14 years in, I wasn't going to do anything illegal to get myself in trouble, but they could not understand that.
James: Yeah Right. Yeah, I think you know, especially today I think that relationship has definitely improved not just with the you know administrative training of command in the marine corps But also with the state department I think that's something they've really honed in on because really to be successful you have to have good relationships both ways but can you talk about What it's like serving in a place like Yemen in in terms of were you able to go out? What was the dynamic like? Where did the Marines live? Liberty, what were all those things like working in a country that is essentially hostile?
Gregg Jones: Thanks. Well, I tell you the funny thing was, alcohol in a Muslim country is very hard to come by, almost to the point where you can't find it. But the souq is where the locals went and they would sell lapis and different things like that. Now you can, before the invasion took place, you could mingle down there and they'd always watch you. There's always somebody looking over your shoulder. You're always looking over your shoulder as who's watching you. But there was nothing like they would go to maybe the Canadian ⁓ embassy in Yemen or they go to the British embassy. They would go to a Western, you know, the French, and then they would intermingle with people from different countries or the other countries would come to our Marine house and they would, you know, exchange ideas and talk and have some type of semblance of a relationship outside of the State Department or outside the Marine Corps, just trying to be a human. But a country that's at the time, think it was like the, it was rated as the 10th worst country to be stationed at. think the number one was like in China. A couple of them were in China. Djibouti was another one. And Yemen was right there. You know, they would change section between one and 10 would change every day, depends on what the climate was. But the Marines, which was really, ⁓ what I really had a lot of respect in is that, you know, they, they were focused on the embassy, the security, because they knew that in a country like they were in, that it was extremely important for them to make sure that everybody was secure and safe as much as possible. And then at the same time, they would be able to go out with our driver or an interpreter to go shop in a local area. But as far as any type of social behaviors outside of the embassy, was only to the other Western influence embassies because there was nowhere to go in Yemen. I was... extremely proud of every single one of my watch standards that, you know, back then they were hardcore. They, they, you know, they didn't have any anxiety problems as some of them do today in the Marine Corps. ⁓ They were straight up sergeants, corporals. would pick a litter, but yet sometimes, like I said, ⁓ they would treat us like a stepchild. And in case in point, I'm going to, Add this other thing in this caveat, what happened with the office of military cooperation when we were able to rescue these two Marines, the Colonel was a full bird Colonel of the army. And, ⁓ he wanted to put us in for an army combination metal, ⁓ because of what we did for these two guys and our CEO, a company CEO would not even give him a respect and talk to him. He told me, I don't want to talk to him. Even though this guy was a senior at the embassy, he did not. want to speak to him because again, it would have elevated our company or I mean our embassy, our detachment. And for whatever reason, he just did not like that idea. But there was no, there was no type of liberty for the Marines there other than the other embassies.
James: Now, said you also served in Switzerland. Can you talk about the contrast between working in a place like Switzerland and then going to a place like Yemen?
Gregg Jones: Oh my goodness. You know, I was in Switzerland and I was able to bring my family. I had three kids at the time and a wife and, and the money is different. The, um, the Liberty is different. Everything's different. And that's the thing that really got me. That's what I learned a lot because in Switzerland and then lot of the watch standards know this, you get to a nice country, you can get to Netherlands, Sweden, whatever these young men, there was a lot of good looking girls out there. And these Marines were well-dressed, well-groomed. so Liberty for them was, it was just like, you can go skiing one day in the French side of the Alps, and then the next day you could be on a train going through Europe. I mean, these guys, that was a beautiful area to be at. But the importance of Switzerland, people don't realize, especially the US mission, that's right next door to the UN. And so we were visited. during the time I was in was during the Russian talks with the Schultz and Shevronazi and they were signing agreements with the nuclear talks. And so it was really dicey, you know, at points, ⁓ you know, and if you don't know Switzerland, I think it's probably known to have the most terrorists in the world because it's a neutral country, but their idea is ⁓ don't blow up your backyard because we won't ⁓ laundry any of your money. So. So anyways, wouldn't be something, it would not be a ⁓ surprise that if one of our Marines, you know, happened to walk into an area where, you know, you might want to just not go in because they knew that maybe some, at that time, the Polish intelligence or something would be in there. And that was definitely off limits. And we, at the time, we could not go to Eastern Germany or any Soviet block countries. So, but they did have ⁓ great liberty. Food was great and then we had a cola because it was so expensive but the Marines survived and they did very well with all the How would you say it all the enticements that they had out there and they did I was really? ⁓ Really surprised on how well they did do out there, but it was a beautiful place
James: Now, as a detachment commander, you did two posts. Can you take us back to how you ended up on the MSG program to begin with?
Gregg Jones: Yeah, I was, I've been very fortunate and I think my whole career, I come from a family of Marines. I think I told you earlier, my aunt was a Marine in World War II, my uncle was a Marine at Iwo Jima, my father was a Marine under Chesty Puller in Korea. And so I had been raised, you know, pretty much in a Marine family and atmosphere going forward, you know, understanding the ins and outs and everything else. I was working at the time I was in a border transport night. We had a unit that was really messed up in inspection and they actually failed. And I was brought in from another company to get it right. I was, the Colonel had told me at the time, he says, Jones, if you can get us to pass this inspection, you can do whatever you want to do. And at that time I was always living in a tent out in the field and you know. more to teasing that the pride of the Marine Corps, but I was a mechanic. And so we did a lot of deployments at that time. And I wanted to get into aviation. That's what started my whole, my whole journey. ⁓ and they did, and we passed with an excellent grade. The Colonel, ⁓ held up to his bargain and I wanted to move over to aviation, which I got into EAS, or A6s at the time. And then, ⁓ that's what started from the East coast. And then I was with VMA 533, which was the greatest A6 squadron ever. to be assembled with Charlie Carr as the CEO. ⁓ And then came off a very successful ⁓ deployment to the Mediterranean. I was put in for another NAMM, which I received the NAMM for being in charge of ⁓ on top of the flight deck and some other things. We also had a huge inspection and we got an accommodation for ⁓ being the best. the best unit at that time with the inspection throughout the Marine Corps. ⁓ So that kind of like put the T across the T for me. And then I went to my Colonel there and I said, Hey, I know I'm get hammered with a special duty and I didn't want to do drill instructor. And I sure didn't want to do recruiting and my hats off to those two groups. But I took the third one, which was MSG and I went to my Colonel and said, Hey, Colonel Winslow was his name. And I said, I'd like to go on Marine security guard. And he said, absolutely. ⁓ You pulled us out of a lot of problems and you received a Navy achievement medal for your hard work on the flight deck and everything else you did for the inspections. And that's what took off my career. And then I went to MSG school, got selected and then everything else after that is just, went through the process of the school and graduated and went to Switzerland. And then after that I went to Yemen.
James: Sure. Now, a lot of the people who listen to this podcast are Marines who are considering MSG duty. What would you tell them?
Gregg Jones: You know, personally, would say I would recommend everybody that even if they're watch standards or even good staff and CEOs to do it because it's a once in a lifetime opportunity. And I'll tell you why I was able to meet dignitaries like the secretary of state Schultz. I was able to have ⁓ ambassador Patron, which was at Geneva, which a fantastic ambassador loved him dearly. Him and his wife was, was just, I mean, out of this world. I had some really good regional security officers, one in Yemen, and Patrick was his name, and then I had one over in ⁓ Geneva, which I enjoyed too. Pete was his name over there. And I would recommend that they do that. I think it's an eye-opener. ⁓ It gives you some credibility within your record book, saying if you went to a special duty on your own without having to be picked to go to drill field or to the ⁓ recruiting that... choose out of the three and do it because not only does it help you with your career, you also go through a top secret clearance is, I mean, they don't mess around. they go back to their childhood and then once you get the top secret clearance, that's value to you as your career goes on. And then also you do a psyche value, pass the psyche value. That's credentials going forward. And, you know, I've seen a lot of Marines get off of MSG and get into law enforcement or other kinds of diplomatic securities because they already went through a background check with the top secret and had a, you know, a good evaluation on the mental stability. So I would recommend that, especially if you're a staff NCO, to try to get into that. But again, you know, don't be like I was. And ⁓ I had an instructor that was You know, he always liked people to fail, but never seemed to want people to succeed except for Captain Pollock seen me and I was just blessed by that man. ⁓ But I highly recommend anybody that has the opportunity to go on the brain security guard.
James: Sure. Now you mentioned all the things that it does for your Marine Corps career and there's no doubt about that. You're certainly, you know, the top 2 % of the Marine Corps. What about personally in terms of the development? You get to see different countries experience things because we talk about being stationed in these other countries and a lot of times service members or Marines look at that the same way it would be if you're stationed in Japan or Germany. And it's not really like that because you don't have the, the
Gregg Jones: you
James: base. You're living within the local community. What do you learn about yourself or how does that help you personally in those kind of situations?
Gregg Jones: Yeah, you know, I think the one thing that really opened my eye, you know, I came from a background of a poor family and, know, we had little to eat, but I never really had a bad life. But what it did do, it teaches you when you're out there how to be somewhat of a diplomat. I mean, you you go out to the post, And you're just a raw individual from the United States. And what it did teach me was grace. It taught me how to be ⁓ forceful in a way that didn't upset the people. And it actually helped me in my whole life to understand that the world is bigger than your backyard and whether it be a Camp Desjune or Camp Pendleton. And you live in a beautiful house. You get taken care of typically, I mean, from the embassies, they take care of your needs and definitely a lot of your wants. But it also, it shows a different perspective on how other people live. Now, again, when I went to Yemen, you know, we have these people here in America that ⁓ somewhat despise United States, whatever reason. But everybody in Yemen wanted to come to America, right? Because ⁓ the land's opportunities and I like, as you have, you've had a hard post, couple of them, but I'd like the idea that it help you understand the world in a better perspective, that we are a blessed country and a lot of the countries rely on us to be that powerhouse. so that we are able to keep the world going round and round. And I think that's the important thing that I learned that we aren't a second class citizen and United States is respected throughout the world.
James: Mm-hmm. That's one of those things where I think if you pay attention when you are on embassy duty It really gives you that perspective because yes, you're in your own little post one you're doing your job and that's a big deal, but if you Take a second to look at what is happening around you. You really are witnessing history and diplomacy and just how our government functions and how other Cultures and other people look at the United States and what I found is when I came back to the US after having been overseas for a number of years is I was more appreciative of a lot of the things we have in the United States. I know that sounds really cliche, but what really would drive those things home for me is when, let's just say you were in line at Starbucks to get coffee and people are complaining about, know, whatever trivial things are complaining about. In those first couple of years that I was back, you have that reflection of, well, you know, I was in Togo and this happened, or when I was in Iraq, you know, we're complaining about lines and you're, you these people don't even have food. That's an important perspective that I don't think a lot of Americans see day to day. And sometimes it being overseas like that helps you remember those things.
Gregg Jones: absolutely, especially like in a third world country like Yemen. by the, by the grace of God, we could have been born until a third world country, not knowing what we have today. And here I am sitting in my house in Florida with air conditioning. And yet I put on 20 years to defend my country because I lost a knock on World War II. He got, he was shot down in a B 17 and killed. Um, and our family is a lot that serve and we believe in our country. I would just. I'm glad that the Marines were out there that did a good successful tour, understand how lucky we really are to live in this country.
James: Well said. Now before we conclude today, do you have any closing words,
Gregg Jones: No, I, I, uh, I think, you know, the experience, uh, what I brought from, um, learning from Switzerland, which was a, a very diplomatic, uh, you know, we, we had our Marine Corps birthday there and we probably, I think we had 400 people attending out of that 300 were dignitaries. mean, I'm talking three stars, two stars. had, uh, foreign leaders from all over the world sitting in that area and listening to and looking at Marines in dress blues. Um, You know, and, and, and, know, you have ambassadors and you just got a whole bunch of head of states. And I appreciate that experience. And then I went to Yemen and I learned how, ⁓ how important the Marines are. ⁓ and how we look in our blues. I, ⁓ I just love our uniforms and our esprit de corps. But the one thing I would, I would bring to everybody else and what it helped me do was, ⁓ I was able to take off and I went to Ukraine. when the war broke out and to bring people, women and children across the border to Poland and Czech Republic, why the guys were fighting in the front lines. And then I was able to go over to Sudan for six months in the middle of the jungle and train villagers how to take care of themselves, biblically and militarily, and then also in Uganda. So the experience I experienced in Yemen helped me prepare me to go to other foreign countries and be an impact to other people. and to bring that resiliency of the United States to be there, whether you're in uniform or not, to be able to be that kind of person that feels like you owe your country something. And I will always be indebted to the United States ever until I pass away. But I just hope that those young people out there that don't realize like my uncle that got killed in combat. and other Marines that got killed in combat and throughout the Iraqi and Afghanistan. And that they would take this country very serious and be proud of wearing that uniform and being proud to be on that post when the stuff hits the fan. So that's what I take away is I just encourage people, young people, especially to get involved and to go out to other countries and see how they live.
James: Mm hmm. Retired Gunnery Sergeant Greg Jones. Thanks for taking the time.
Gregg Jones: Yes, sir. Thank you, James, for having me.
