Breaking New Ground: The First Career Detachment Commander in Marine Security Guard History

James: Thanks for listening to the post one podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts. It helps more people find the show. you want to share your story, send us an email at james at post one podcast.com. This podcast is not endorsed by the United States department of war, the department of state or the United States Marine Corps. ⁓ Master Sergeant Jesse Wagner, welcome to the Post One Podcast. Welcome to the Post One Podcast. I'm James Curry, Marine veteran and prior MSG. On today's episode, for the first time since the podcast launched, active duty Marine is on the show. Master Gunnery Sergeant Jesse Wagner is not only still on the program, he's also the first career detachment commander in the history of MSG. That MOS create it.
Jesse: Thank you so much, it's an absolute pleasure to be here with you today.
James: Sure. Now Jesse, you've had a long career in association with the MSG program and I want to talk about all of that stuff. But first I want to discuss you are the first career detachment commander in the history of the MSG program. Can you talk about what that means?
Jesse: So I will say yes, first of all, it is an absolute honor to be the first of anything in Marine Corps. Marine Corps has been around for so long, so we're always growing, we're always changing, we're adapting. So to be the first of anything is quite a tremendous honor. I think on the MSU program, it's been talked about for a long time. The career detachment commander. M.O.S. and like, why do we not have careers? This is a special skill. There's aspects of doubt about this. There's an art to it. There's knowledge. And then most of time we're only ever on the program for three years and then we take the knowledge away with us. And even back in 2013, when I was initially going through MSG school the first time, it was talked about and everybody said it'll never happen. Rinkle will never do it. And then. We didn't quit. We kept planting the seeds, we kept working on it. And when I got back to the program in 2023, I came back to the schoolhouse to be an instructor and it was being talked about. And there was actually some pretty good work being done on it. And then in tail end of 2023 to 24, the project was handed off to me and Chief Warrant Officer Ross, who was a prior MSG as well too and was just spending some time with us before he retired and We basically started running with it. A lot of stuff was already done, but we started running with it. We started briefing it. We started talking to ⁓ TFSD up here in Quantico for the Total Forces Structure Division for manpower and combat development integration, CDNI, to basically go through the entire process of creating a primary MOS. And I will tell you, I had no idea what that process looked like or what it was to get it done. And we learned quickly. And, and then in September, we ended up sitting in front of the staff at CDNI and we briefed it and they loved it. They loved the idea. They loved the concept. They loved what we were trying to do with it. And from that point, it basically got approved. And now here I am as the first 8157 MSG career detachment commander.
James: Mm-hmm, which is a pretty big deal. Can you talk about the role of a detachment commander, especially, on today's program? Because it's a pretty big deal. You're an enlisted person, but you also carry that title of commander.
Jesse: Absolutely. So we talk about it a lot with our students, the detachment commanders, the staff, non-commissioned officers that are coming through the school to ⁓ try to be detachment commanders. And it is one of the very, very few places in the Marine Corps where an enlisted Marine will hold the title commander and sign an assumption of command for their detachment that they were assigned to once they actually get out to the debt and after they graduate school. And There's a huge difference between a commanding officer and the burden of command that they have. However, there's some huge similarities for being a staff and CO with the title commander. And it's definitely not anything to take lightly. The detachment commander out at post is responsible for a lot of the administration, almost all of it, where You have to make sure your Marines are getting paid. You have to make sure your Marines are doing all the training that they're supposed to be doing at the Marine Corps dictates that the Marine Corps, NBC security group dictates and keeping morale up, making sure you have a good command climate while also liaising with our partners at diplomatic security and the state department and conducting drills and keeping that fine balance between operational security and able to function on a day to day.
James: It's a pretty big job and for most staff NCOs who come from the Fleet Marine Force or even those who have done other B-Billets, it's different. It's challenging to just step into that role. Can you talk about what that transition is like even after you get out of MSG school as a trained detachment commander? There's a huge learning curve there.
Jesse: There is, and MSG school nowadays is nine weeks long. So we have five classes a year and nine weeks at a time, the students are here in Quantico, all students, the detachment commanders and the watch standers. So we start integrating them and like what it is to be a detachment commander from day one. They get assigned their student detachment. They're operating as a detachment. The deck commander is responsible for the junior Marines. and they go through every aspect. They're doing the counselling. They're learning all of the skills and everything as well too. And then if they make it to graduation, when they get out to post, we have a lot of stuff in place right now currently that we've been using where we're setting them up for success. We've gone through several of our detachments and we've pulled information for the day-to-day battle rhythm and what should you be doing in the first 30 days, the first 60 days, first 90 days, just like every commander has. in the Marine Corps. So we've kind of converted that into what we're supposed to be doing as deck commanders, because I remember when I showed up in my first attachment, my ASOS picked me up from the airport and he said, OK, cool, I'll see you tomorrow morning. And we headed into the embassy. We walked back to my office and I said to him, OK, what do I do? What am I supposed to do all day? And he goes, Oh, I have absolutely no idea. Oh, OK. We're going to figure this out together. Awesome. So we went around and we met people at the embassy and he introduced me to the people that we had worked with, GSO, finance. I had my meeting with the ambassador and we had a check-in process that we went through. But realistically, the first several weeks I would just sit in my office and go, okay, wait for an email to come in. Oh, I got something to do. And then I would do it. And then I'd walk around and I would say hi to people and I would, hey, do you need anything for me? and stuff like that. So we're trying to get ahead of that now by giving the detachment commanders more information. And that's what a lot of the 8157 career detachment commander is about, is building that continuity for us. Because I have seen, oh my goodness now, I was posted at two different posts in Canberra, Australia and then Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan. And I have visited numerous other detachments, kind of all. pretty much almost in every region of the world. And each and every time that we go and we visit somewhere, we see something like, cool, hey, that is a great thing. Let's bring that back. And we start, we do it at the school. We'll introduce the students to it. And then we can help spread that knowledge as opposed to, you know, the knowledge dying with me when I've come off the program after three years.
James: so is there going to be a time where it won't be a ⁓ true ⁓ B-billet in terms of you'll just your three years as a Detachment Commander, then transition to your next assignment? ⁓ Will it always something where ⁓ this is your job in the Marine Corps and that's it?
Jesse: No, not for the entire program. I don't think anybody has any anticipation that it will ever just be career detachment commanders out at post. So realistically, what we did with this is we mirrored a lot of what career recruiters do for the Marine Corps. currently on program, there's a roundabout number of about 250 staff and COs acting as detachment commanders. ⁓ total number of career detachment commanders is going to be 80, eight zero. And that's pretty much where we're at right now is ⁓ the number of the Marine Corps has agreed to give us. ⁓ everybody else is going to be an 80, 156 detachment commander that comes from the fleet. They come to the school and they do the three years. And I think there's a huge benefit for that as well too, in the sense that. It's very easy to get tunnel vision. It's very easy for us to sit there and get comfortable with what it is that we're doing as detachment commanders. And by bringing fleet Marines in, we're going to see new things. We're going to get injects of new ideas, new concepts, and we'll continue to grow and improve ourselves by continually bringing in, for lack of better words, outsiders. Now in my own mind, tell you what, I'm a 25 years in the Marine Corps right now. I probably only have about four, max five years left. And there is definitely some ambitions that me personally, I have and for the future growth of what I want to see for the MSU program and for career detachment commanders. And this is all just me spit balling. Marine Corps is not bought off on any of this stuff yet, but ultimately resulting in officers. And I'm talking like, this is like eight to 10 years, maybe 15 years down the road where you'll go from being an 8156 detachment commander to request a lap move over to being an 8157, be in that for several years, and then put in a warrant officer package.
James: Sure.
Jesse: And I want to see warrant officers out on the program, not acting as detachment commanders, but acting at the region headquarters to be the Marine security guard officers. And then that growing into limited duty officers and everything else. Like I have a lot of ambition and a lot of people tell me all the time, like, Hey, you need to slow down. Cool. I'm just planting seeds right now, but there's a lot of potential that this program has to build that continuity, to build that knowledge base and create some severe.
James: Sure.
Jesse: security experts for working right alongside Diplomatic Security and out there at our embassies and consulates.
James: Sure. Can you talk about why you personally wanted this career detachment commander role?
Jesse: So I first heard about the MSG program when I was a Lance Corporal. And we had a corporal in my unit that was getting ready to go to MSG school. And I was like, what do mean you get to go work at an embassy? What? I didn't know we did that. And he told me a little bit about it. And that excited me. But I was a married Lance Corporal at the time. I married my high school sweetheart. And we've been together my entire Marine Corps career. So I looked a little bit more into it. And I'm like, Crap, okay, I have to wait until I'm a staff and CO to go on the MSG program. Cool, I'll do some other things. And that was when basically I got to my point in my career when we were over in Afghanistan and I'd been a staff sergeant for long enough time that I was able to put in my package to be a career detachment commander. I think some of the things that really drove me to it was ⁓ worldwide travel. Like I love the idea of being a forward representative of the United States of the Marine Corps, working with different people besides Marines was exciting as well, too, you know, at the embassies, the foreign service officers and stuff. But I think probably one of the biggest things that drove me to it is I came on the program when I was about 12 and a half years in the Marine Corps. Fairly mid range seasoned staff sergeant and I was so mad at some of the decisions being made, whether it was like command decisions made or senior enlisted decisions made or anything like that. And I want to be a detachment commander because I want it to be in control. I want to be able to have that title commander. I want it to be the one making the decisions, getting the buy-in from my junior Marines and making changes that I thought needed to be made, even if it was just at a small detachment level. And that's what really drove me to it was the idea of the burden of command.
James: Now you brought up a really good point because one of the things that I'm not sure a lot of Marines who are considering MSG duty think about are Some of those inherent challenges and you know watch standards as you know are not allowed to be married But even as a detachment commander you certainly are allowed to be married But going overseas in a unique environment not affiliated with the Marine base Not having that support poses its own challenges. Can you speak from a personal perspective as a detachment? commander who has gone through ⁓ those transitions, not just professionally, but also personally.
Jesse: Absolutely. So it is a big transition where you're used to having support at the base, know, base housing facilities. You can go to the commissary, you can go to the exchange, you you run over to IPAC, you can run to your S1, like all of the support is local. When you get out to the embassy, the regional security officer has the operational control of the detachment telling you what to do, how to do it daily on the operational side. but all the administration is ran through region headquarters. So sometimes some of the detachments are co-located with the region headquarters, most of the time they're not. So it's a lot of coordination through digital means, whether it's email, whether it's package submissions online or anything like that, video teleconferences, if a detachment commander needs to talk to their senior enlisted advisor about something going on, they have to pick up the phone. There is no way you could just go by First Sarns office and say, hey, I need this help. ⁓ And then another aspect of it is the lingo changes. Like I know that if I need something for my residence or for the office, I'm calling base facilities. Well, who the heck is base facilities out at the embassy? So getting that understanding of, I need to call the general services office because they're similar to our S4. And then balancing the aspect of who to call, how to make the things happen that I'm so used to being able to make happen locally was a big transition. then, know, DMO, how much stuff am I allowed to bring out to post? Moving as a detachment commander with my family, moving into ⁓ my house that's been assigned to me, that's my debt commander residence, and it's fully furnished. So now I don't get my own bed. I can bring, some pots and pans, could bring my own pillow, could bring my own bedding type stuff, but a lot of the major furniture was already there and everything is essentially set up for me. Most of my other stuff all goes in storage for the entire Tom overseas. So that was a unique aspect to it as well too.
James: Can you talk about some of the challenges with, you know, family life, spouse, adjusting to living off the economy, schools, those sorts of things that a lot of times we don't have to think about if we just PCS from base to base in the United States?
Jesse: Absolutely. And I will tell you, think most attachment commanders as active duty Marines, they're not even thinking about that stuff. I get orders, I go. Most of us have deployed before. So it's like, ⁓ cool. I can pick up my stuff. I've got my sea bag. I show up at a new location. I just go. But the family aspect is all too often forgotten about. Where are my kids going to go to school? Is my spouse going to be able to work? How are they going to travel? How are we going to get around ⁓ our vehicle situation, stuff like that? one of the best parts about the MSG program, and this is the only place besides the attache school where we're sending the defense attaches out that I know of where we actually towards the end of the detachment commander course before they graduate, we invite the spouses to come to Quantico. So the spouse will get an invitation to come to Quantico and we give them an introduction to the MSG program. We put them through some of the training. And we give an opportunity for the spouses to ask all of those spouse type questions to make sure that they can have an easier transition out to post as well too. So hopefully by the time that everybody's getting out there, they've answered their questions. They know who the points of contact are. We have a fantastic spouse network set up where we always have a spouse coordinator who is a spouse of one of our detachment commanders. So. that somebody who just recently got back from post is here in Quantico and they're like, ⁓ yeah, when I was just there six months ago, this is how we had to navigate that and everything. it, everybody is really starting to realize and push the information to the incoming spouses to help with the spouse and the family transition out to post as well too. Cause there's a lot of stuff that exists. Like you mentioned schools. When I got to Australia, there was no department of defense school. So where do my kids go to school? It was a private school. It was about $78,000 a year. And I'm like, well, I can't afford to have a snapshot. I'm not affording a $78,000 a year school. And we found out about the program for NDSP, non-department of defense school program. They paid for the entire tuition and they cover all of it. And the same thing in Kyrgyzstan. was a private school, high cost, but we didn't have to pay a single dime.
James: Mm-hmm.
Jesse: And it's because it's a private school. Kids are realistically getting a lot better education. My oldest daughter was in fifth and sixth grade when we were out there and she came back to the United States having been in, you know, small class sizes. Like you're talking one teacher to five students type thing where they're actually teaching them some real learning skills. She came back here to the United States and she was a straight A student.
James: Mm-hmm.
Jesse: because she was able to develop all of that and everything else, which was fantastic for her.
James: Right. You know, one of the things you talked about, learning the different areas of the embassy in terms of the offices and who does what and all those sorts of things. One of the biggest challenges that I seen when I was in the program is the detachment commander's relationship with the RSO, who is essentially their boss, like it or not. And sometimes that is ⁓ problematic because most detachment commanders are seasoned Marines, they're leaders in their own right. and they don't like having to answer to a civilian. Can you talk about what that relationship is like and how important it is?
Jesse: So that relationship is probably one of the most critical ones for the detachment commander and the morale and the operational readiness of the detachment. So the regional security officer is a State Department Diplomatic Security Service Federal Law Enforcement Special Agent. And they have a ton of experience in what they do. I mean, for most of the ones that I've interacted with as well too. A lot of them actually have military background and experience, so they understand where we're coming from. One of the biggest challenges is, especially if you have one that has a military experience, is getting them to understand. We are the military representative. You're not going to be the one that's going to sit there and try to discipline the Marines and stuff like that. That's what our role is. ⁓ a lot of it, mean, anywhere in any profession, there is potential for personality conflicts with your boss. understanding that the regional security officer has that operational control ⁓ that the detachment commander is really the one who has the administrative control and then facilitates ⁓ the RSO wants the detachment to do within the confines of the memorandum of agreement, what we're allowed to do and our own physical capabilities, whether it's any of the weaponry or anything like that that we in the training that we have. There's that delicate balance of being able to sit there and really advise the RSO like, hey, this is what we can do. This is what we can't do. And how do you want to employ it? But it's a very delicate relationship because if the RSO is like, hey, this is not the commander I want, it's the exact same thing as any other command team where if you're superior, higher headquarters commanders, like you're not the right person to lead this unit, you potentially could be removed from post.
James: Right, and RSOs have a lot of power and I always felt that sometimes, either right or wrong, the detachment commanders don't necessarily like that. my thought is you really just have to accept it. It's the way it is, they're in charge. But you also say that it's a delicate relationship and that's absolutely true because sometimes the detachment commander has to say no to the State Department
Jesse: Absolutely. One of the benefits of having like the Marine Corps side of the administrative chain of command ⁓ ⁓ able to use them to be the ones to say no. ⁓ I spent two and a half months as the region seven senior enlisted leader when I first got back to the program. ⁓ so I was in Frankfurt, Germany covering down ⁓ Northwest Africa. And I would tell all of the deck commanders all the time, if your or so is telling you to do something and You don't want to do it because of whatever reason, it needs to be a legitimate reason. You're not just going to say no to the boss, but if there's legitimate concerns about it, tell them that region headquarters said you can't blame us, blame me. You you always sit there and say, eventually every single one of us becomes the them or the they. Like, why can't we do this? All because they're not allowing us to do it. Well, who's they? It's higher headquarters. It's the Marine Corps.
James: Excuse me.
Jesse: And so I used tell my deck commanders all the time, just blame me, but you better call me afterwards and tell me because you know that the next phone call is going to be to us. And I need to be able to justify and back you up. So again, that's how I helped my deck commanders at the lower level, maintain that relationship by not being the bad guy. I'm the faceless person that's hundreds of miles away. Blame me for it. Let them hate me. But you maintain your relationship.
James: Right.
Jesse: And there were times when deck commanders would call and say, hey, they're telling us that we need to do this. And I'd be like, mm, yeah, you need to do that. Tell me why you don't want to. And we would talk about it and everything. And we'd get to the point where it's like, OK, here's the compromise. This is what we can do. And it would help maintain that relationship.
James: Mm-hmm. Right, and I think those are skills that are valuable not just in the embassy environment but across your professional life wherever that takes you.
Jesse: Absolutely. It's one of the things that helps our deck commanders be so successful after they come off the program, whether it's the 57s that will eventually retire and go out into the civilian workforce. So the 56s that either go back to the fleet or, you know, end up EASing themselves and getting out of the Marine Corps is the personality skills and the character skills that you develop while you're on the program.
James: one of the things I wanted to ask you is you're the first career detachment commander in the history of the Corps. And you already said that's a pretty big deal. ⁓ What responsibility comes with that? What do you feel personally about the first person to hold that title?
Jesse: Well, I will tell you, it was the probably the biggest honor and terrorizing moment of my entire career because understanding that I am the first, I could really screw this up. And that is absolutely terrifying to, you know, screw up something that we hold so close to cherishing and really wanting to succeed. the way I like, I'm sitting at the school right now. So I am the senior Marine enlisted Marine at the MSG school.
James: Right.
Jesse: So modeling the behavior, keeping my staff ⁓ excited, motivated, them ⁓ true to the program as well too. There's a lot that goes into it as well as moving into the role of the advisor to senior leadership. know, when, ⁓ whether it's through the operations chief, the other master guns that we have, that's an 0399 at higher headquarters here in Quantico or the Colonel or you know, the Sergeant Major, when stuff gets talked about, like they're looking at me for the subject matter expertise, which, you know, I have to realize as well too, there are plenty of Marines that we have on the program and there are instructors in my staff that have different and more time experiences than I have. Like I've been a deck commander. I've been on the screening team traveling around talking to Marines, screening Marines forward. I've worked at region headquarters and I have now been at the school running that and leading that. But I have detachment commanders on my staff that have spent four years as watchstanders, spent four years as detachment commanders, open detachments, been around to all kinds of different regions, different tier levels for quality of life and everything. And they've seen a more stuff that I have in regards to different nuances. I've seen all the different billets, but they've seen more at different levels. So I've got to remind myself that I've got that staff to lean on as well too. And as a whole, we are constantly talking amongst the 8157s, workshopping things, figuring out, hey, what is the best way to do this based off of everyone's experience. just like we always tell our detachment commanders, I talked to the recent class that's on deck right now, just yesterday about this. And we always say, just because you're alone, you're never by yourself. So even though I sit here with this tremendous burden of being the first and don't screw this up, I'm not really alone. I have all of my staff. have all the other Marines that we've already selected to be 8157s. They just haven't.
James: Mm-hmm.
Jesse: been awarded the MOS yet. I've got all of them to help burden the load and help me carry this to where we want to see it go in the future within the confines of Commander's Intent and Commander's Guidance as well.
James: So, you know, lot of the people who listen to this podcast are Marines who are contemplating becoming MSGs. What are you looking for, particularly in a detachment commander?
Jesse: it's a character. That is the easiest way to say it. It's ⁓ character. So can teach ⁓ somebody how do post one. I can teach naval letter format. I can teach you how to use ⁓ the online systems. ⁓ If you're a good person who's trustworthy, who ⁓ is competent, not going to succeed. ⁓ It doesn't how. If you have a 300 PFT and a 300 CFT and you come out here and you're an expert rifle shooter and like the things that the Marine Corps specifically looks at for promotion and everything else, if that's all you are and you don't have the ability to adapt to a new environment, to be able to have those conversations, to have the personality skills and to be a good person, you're not going to succeed on the MSG program.
James: And how do you screen for that? Because you brought up a good point, is when we look at what a good Marine is, a lot of times we look at those PFT scores, we look at the stuff we can see on paper. How are you screening for detachment commanders who have good character?
Jesse: So a lot of that happens at the school. ⁓ There's a lot of things that are done where, like I said in the beginning, like the school is set up so that the detachment commander is assigned their detachment of Marines from the get-go. And we're constantly talking to the junior Marines. We're evaluating the senior Marines based off of what the junior Marines are kind of telling us as well too, because most of the time anybody is going to be nice and have a face-on for their boss for the higher level.
James: Mm-hmm.
Jesse: They might be two-faced down to the more junior Marines. So we talk to them as well too. And like the Marine Corps has actually instituted a program, Leadership 360, where certain, it's still rolling out in different phases right now, but we're starting to institute it as well too, where we will pull some of the junior Marines in about week six or seven of the course. And we'll ask them about their detachment commanders. Have you ever seen them do this? Have they done this? Are they doing this with you? You know, are they, basically getting, I don't know, insider information, if you will, from their actual detachments to make sure that they're the right people. We tasked them with a lot of things for the administrative side, the counselors that they're doing and everything else. That there's a huge burden that the student deck matters feels well too, because they're going through the school and having to learn all the same skills that the watch standards are.
James: Mm-hmm.
Jesse: They have to learn post one, they have to learn weapons, have to learn defensive tactics, all those things, while still counseling and mentoring all of their Marines and still being responsible for them day to day. And that's a big way that we're doing the screening on them to see how they actually are as people as well.
James: Mm-hmm. Are there any absolute disqualifiers?
Jesse: ⁓ there's several absolute disqualifiers. ⁓ One, the exceptional family member program, EFMP. We have to be able to deploy the entire family overseas. We do not separate families. So that's probably one of the biggest things. When I was part of the screening team, we would bring the staff and CO in, we would conduct the initial screening on them. Everything checks out with them. And then we ask them about their family members. And they're like, ⁓ yeah, my... youngest child has asthma or you know there's some sort of speech therapy or there's some sort of other medical condition that exists and we're like this is the hardest thing I'm to have to tell you you're disqualified because you're a family and there's very few places in the Marine Corps where your family members will actually really affect your career and your own goals.
James: Right. Can you also talk about what you're looking for in terms of a watch standard?
Jesse: So again, the watch standard, we push character. The interactions with the watch standards that they're going to have with people, like this is an independent duty most of the time. You're going to be by yourself in post one. You need to be able to think. You need to be able to articulate thoughts. You need to be able to grab the select tone system and make an announcement to the entire embassy compound, make it clear, make it concise. pass the information to hopefully save lives or coordinate emergency response. So what we don't want, I don't want a robot. I do not want a robot to show up to the school. And when I engage with the Marines in daily passing conversations, when I say to my, corporal that's sitting there in class, Hey, good morning. How are you? I don't want a good master gunner sergeant. That's not what we're looking for. I want to have a conversation. want to be able to dialogue with you so that can get a better idea of who you are, your capabilities, and whether it's communication, whether it's critical thinking, anything like that. And then of course, they need to be competent in what it is the skills that we're teaching them so that they can be effective out of post.
James: Sure, and that's a really good point because one of the things that we talk about all the time here is the communication stuff. You said you need somebody who's able to have a conversation with you. And in the fleet, know, if an E9 says good morning to a junior Marine, they're going to say something like, ura, kill, urr, you all that stuff. You sound like a Neanderthal. Although to other Marines, you sound normal. But can you talk about why that's not normal on the embassy?
Jesse: You Yes. Absolutely. So that is probably, I love that you actually use the word Iraq kill because that is probably one of the biggest things that like when I engage with the Marines on day one when we're doing the initial introduction to the school, that's exactly what I talk about. And I'll tell the Marine, if you're standing post one and you're standing there and the ambassador walks in and he says, good morning Marine. And you say, they're going to think you're freaking insane. They're like, what are these guys doing here? They're just going to, they just want to kill everything.
James: Yeah. Yes.
Jesse: That's not the diplomatic mission. And it's taking you out of the war fighting aspect and getting you into the diplomacy aspect of it. Of course, we still want to be lethal. We need to be able to do that if we are called to it. But day to day, we are diplomats. We are representing the country. We're representing the Marine Corps. And we have to get our Marines out of the mindset of every single person that you meet is the enemy. And you have to be like, this robotic non-thinking Marine because when that Marine is the only person, the only American in the embassy at two o'clock in the morning and they get that phone call and they answer the phone, American embassy, security guard, whatever's on the other end of that phone, they have to be able to think, they have to be able to communicate to them and they have to be successful at what it is they're doing. I think one of the best stories that we have with that was there was a 19 year old Marine standing post one. This was during the daytime and I believe they were somewhere in Mexico and they got the phone call and it was an American who had just escaped a hostage situation. And I don't know where I am. I don't know what's going on, but I need help. And they got ahold of the American embassy. The 19 year old Marine answers the phone and talks them through it, gets the debt commander, gets the RSO, dispatches the local guards, the Foreign Service National Investigators, our mobile security deployment teams, all of these assets that we have in the layers and layers of security that we have at the embassy. And they were able to get our people to that person, got them back to the embassy, identified them, figured out who they were. and got them home because a 19 year old Marine answered the phone. That's incredible.
James: You know, you're giving me chills just listening to that because I tell everybody, and this is absolutely 100 % true, I believe this wholeheartedly, where that is what makes an MSG. Because everybody thinks that post one has the answers to every single thing that goes on in the embassy. And sure, know, MSG school teaches you the mechanics. Hey, open the door here. This is how this security system works and all those kind of things.
Jesse: you
James: but you're going to get calls that you have never been trained to deal with and you have to be able to think on your feet and be able to solve whatever that problem is in a way that makes just about everybody happy and doesn't have an impact or negative impact on whatever problem it is you're trying to solve. And know, I give examples where I can remember people would call me on post one and ask me to make reservations for them. And you have to tell them no in a way that is diplomatic. But then, know, I've had
Jesse: Yes.
James: parents call me and tell me my kid is stopped breathing. What do I do? And I was never, you I was not a 911 operator. I wasn't trained to do that. But you have to be able to figure out what those those problems are. And then the other thing, as you know, is you're never going to know who shows up at your window and what their motives are. And you have to figure out is it an American in distress? Or is this an Israeli spy trying to see how we handle you know, a lot of those things. So that story you just told, I think captures
Jesse: Yes. Absolutely.
James: true role of a watchstander beautifully and why they are unique Marines in a lot of ways.
Jesse: Absolutely. The critical thinking aspect and the ability to handle unique situations is critical for any Marine Security Guard, whether it's one of our watch standers or one of our detachment commanders. And again, that's why it's so critical that we built the career detachment commander MLS is because we're going to experience more because we have more time. So now we can move into the role where all this knowledge that I have. can get into the watch center's heads, I can give them those stories, can give them those examples. And we can do that at the school before they ever make it out so that hopefully, like the whole goal of the school in my eyes is to get them the information and then expose them to as much information and as much scenarios as we can so that the first time they ever experience it is in a controlled training environment and not when somebody's life is at risk.
James: Mm-hmm. You know all this talk about MSG school It certainly evolved over the years and the generations of Marines that we've had on this podcast have all articulated very different experiences When I went through the MSG program starting in 2005, you know you showed up to the schoolhouse ready to go in your alphas and you got a Uniform inspection right there and that was like you're essentially your first test and then I remember vividly the chief instructor briefing us on the first day and he said things like, this is not a PT Academy, we do not practice sleep deprivation here. And I quickly learned it was all of those things. What is MSG school like today?
Jesse: So like I said earlier, MSG school has evolved quite a bit. It is a nine week course and every time that something happens and there's a new good idea, let's teach our Marines this, we seem to get longer and longer. When I came through in 2013, was detachment commanders were in school for eight weeks and watch standards were only six. So detachment commanders showed up two weeks before our watch standards and we went through a lot of the screening that happens in the beginning.
James: Mm-hmm.
Jesse: And we actually dropped the deck commanders before the watch centers ever showed up. So that way we were sitting at like our core group of who our deck commanders were going to be. And then we received our watch centers after we'd been through a lot of stuff and then we get training on things. So we're being trained on certain aspects before they are. So we're like two weeks ahead of all of the watch centers and the training schedule so that I learn handcuffing, I learn baton, I learn all those things post one. And then later my Marines are learning it while I'm learning. detachment commander specific stuff. And then we would move into, all right, hey, you're already tested, you're certified on this. Now make sure your Marines are going to be good on it as well too. And it was, was a great training pipeline for that. Now everybody shows up together. Everybody learns together and everybody gets tested together at the same time. So the instructors have a lot more critical role in the day-to-day ⁓ involvement with the students because we haven't tested this deck matters on this stuff yet. ⁓ All of the Marine Corps aspects exist at the school. You're still going to show up in your Alphas. You're still going to all the customs and courtesy still exist. I just want them to be able to talk tactfully to me and the rest of the staff. ⁓ We PT, but we're not a PT Academy. We do not have time to be a PT Academy, which is why the physical fitness standards exist. We're going to evaluate that day one. Well, probably typically day three or so of the school, we're gonna evaluate, they're gonna run a physical fitness assessment and we're gonna see. And if they don't have that from the beginning, they don't meet that standard that we need from the beginning, we're not going to hold on to them at the school in some cases. then we'll PT throughout the school, but more or less the PT is to show them how to ⁓ still physical fitness standards.
James: Mm-hmm. Right.
Jesse: in unique environments. So we're not just going and we're like, all right, we're going to go run 10 miles. We're going to do different aspects. We're going to do circuit drills. We're going to do stuff like that based on what they'll be able to do at some of their posts out in the world. And then it's a lot of classroom. They're going to spend a lot of time sitting in the classroom, learning information. And over the last year, we've made a lot of transitions at the school with scenario based training. So that is probably one of the biggest things that I'm proud of, of the school. ⁓ lot of what we're doing is not the same typical Marine Corps, sit in this class, I'm going to give you a written test. We still do written tests, but it's not nearly the same. Like I'm not sitting there saying, what are the parts of the expanded baton? I want you be able to employ it. So we will set up modular houses. ⁓ after we've taught them all of what is referred to as the hard skills, ⁓ baton, the handcuffing, all of that stuff. we'll put them into a straining scenario and we'll tell them, hey, you're a Marine security guard. You are walking and you hear arguing in this room, go handle it. And they have no idea what they're walking into, which is pretty realistic for what it is that we do out there. And then they walk in there and they have to either deescalate the situation or they have to pull the appropriate tool of the MSG in order to handle the situation. And it's a lot more scenario based training.
James: Right.
Jesse: And it's not just getting them to the desired end state. Once they're done inside the room, they now have to walk out of the room and explain to the instructor, why did you do what you do, citing all of the legal precedences that go along with ⁓ proper use of force and be able to articulate all that information in order to actually pass the event.
James: Right. When I was going through MSG school, think there were three things that caused us the most anxiety. The first one was the OC spray. ⁓ The next one was the peer evaluations. And then the last one was the board. And you know, yes.
Jesse: Mm-hmm. Yes. Performance Evaluation Board, I knew you were going to say that. Because I will say there are two things that no MSG that goes to that school will ever forget and it's OC spray and the Performance Evaluation Board.
James: And that is still true today. It still gives me anxiety just thinking about it. Can you talk about those things, you know, one by one, starting with the OC spray?
Jesse: ⁓ you want to start with OC? That's a great one. So, you know, there is a policy in place that says that if for you to be able to carry pepper spray, OC spray, you have to be you have to feel the effects of it. That is a Marine Corps policy that exists. It's not an MSG, our military police, anybody who does anything with non-lethal weapons has to, you know, get the OC spray. And I think every single one of us will say the same thing. Well.
James: Sure.
Jesse: I carry a baton, but you don't have to hit me with it. I carry a gun, I'm not going to get shot, am I? But it doesn't matter. This is where we shut up in color. The Marine Corps says you're going to do this, you're going to do this. Hopefully we never get to the point where somebody has to beat me with my baton or shoot me in the leg in order to be certified to carry a pistol. That would be insane. So the OC is what we work at with that. Now, one of the key things that is kind of missing or not really
James: Right.
Jesse: in the Marine Corps policy for OC, there's no timeline. There is nothing that says that ⁓ you've been sprayed, it's only certified and you're only valid for X amount of years. Military police have it because they have it built into their training and readiness manual, but we don't have that. So ⁓ about two years ago, we wrote a policy letter and I'm saying this for every single one of our listeners.
James: Mm.
Jesse: who have possibly been OC sprayed before and they're like, ⁓ I don't want to come to MSG school because they're going to have to spray me. There's different levels of OC contamination. Level one being what we absolutely hate, where it's a direct spray in the face and then you have to fight through the different techniques. And that is the absolute worst it's going to feel. And then there's a level two where it's basically you spray a rag, wipe it across your forehead. It's like, ⁓ yeah, that sucks, but I can still function. And then level three being just like area contamination. and being able to fight through that, probably cough a little bit, be like, yep, that sucks, that's spicy. So we created a policy where basically if you've been level one sprayed in last five years and you have your certificate, we're not going to spray you again.
James: Mm-hmm. Good to hear.
Jesse: If you, yeah, that actually entices quite a bit of memories to actually come back because it hurts, it sucks. As you remember. And then if you're within a different window, five to 10 years, then we're only going to do level two. If it's been over 10 years, we're going to do level one again. And realistically, the aspect of that is it's easy for a person to understand if I hit somebody,
James: Yeah, it does. I do.
Jesse: baton, it's going to hurt. I know that. If I shoot somebody, the intent is that they're going to die. The aspect of OC spray is it would be nothing for you to just simply be a cruel individual and just soak somebody in OC spray. It's like if you've experienced it, you're like, you know what? Maybe I'm not going to do that to somebody because I'm glad nobody ever did that to me.
James: Yeah, you know, part of the benefit of being sprayed is you know how to deploy it humanely.
Jesse: ⁓ Absolutely. And I definitely remember after ⁓ OC, I've been sprayed several times in my career. And after, you know, the first time it was like, wow, if a police officer ever pulls OC spray on me, yeah, I'm gonna do what they tell me to do because I don't want to experience that. Yes.
James: Instant compliance. All right, can you talk about the peer evaluations? Is that something that is still done that MSG school?
Jesse: 100 % it's still done. The watch standards will do peer evaluations on each other and the detachment commanders will do peer evaluations on each other as well too. We typically keep the week to week peer evals in those categories of watch standards and debt commanders. Towards the end, we do start asking the watch standards about the detachment commanders for that kind of subordinate eval. But yes, that is one of the best ways that we're grading and judging people because Even if you think that your friends are your friends, your peers will give up more information about you than ⁓ you probably hope that they would. And nobody gets dropped to MSG school simply because of the peer evals. But the peer evals work perfectly into that last portion that you want to talk about with the board where we will gain as much information about somebody as we can through peer evals, through testing, through psychological evaluations, whatever it is. And then it all culminates in the performance evaluation board where when that Marine walks into the room and the peer has now said, hey, yeah, this is the type of person that is only excelling because they're stepping on everybody else to get to the top. It is a no holds bar. Hey, Marine, tell me about this. And they're going to have to explain why their peers are saying this about them. And then the board will make those risk decisions based off of, this is the character we see, this is the grade at events, this is what we're seeing in front of us right now, and whether or not they're gonna stay at school. But nobody ever gets dropped specifically for peer evals, but it might go into the decision-making process.
James: Can you talk about who sits on that board because it's not just Marines, right?
Jesse: That is correct. The Performance Evaluation Board, which is now more, it's kind of morphed into a little bit more than just performance because it's everything that we're doing at the school is an evaluation of risk. Every Marine who goes out to the program brings risk associated with them, even myself. You know, I have a family. How are my family? How's my home life? You know, am I going to be able to focus as an attachment commander if You know, me and my spouse are constantly bickering and fighting and stuff like that. So every marine that goes out the post brings a certain level of risk to them. So we've kind of over the last couple of years, we've kind of morphed it into it's more of a risk evaluation board. the typically the executive director of Marine Corps, NBC Security Group will sit on that board right now. The MSG school OIC officer in charge is sitting on that board because we're unfortunately for some of the listeners, they might not have heard this yet, but ⁓ Mr. Frank Baker, who was a legend over the last several years, 15 years in MSG has retired. So they're going through the hiring process to get us a new executive director. But so currently right now, the MSG school ⁓ major sits on that board along with a representative from diplomatic security at the MSG school. do have a diplomatic security special agent that is assigned to the staff and they will sit on the board, teach some classes, do stuff like that with the students as well. But they're going to sit on the board. The instructor advisor is going to sit on the board and basically brief the Marine to the board members on this is what we've seen. This is what the data we've collected. I do or I don't recommend this Marine go to post because of whatever it is that they've seen. And then the command psychologist is going to sit on the board as well too. And that is a very unique aspect of MSG school is Every single Marine is going to take a written and a computerized psychological evaluation and then they're going to sit down kneecap to kneecap with a clinical psychologist and they're going to have a conversation. And then everything gets compiled and the command psychologist will sit there and say, these are the risk behaviors that we see in this Marine. And if you send them the post, this is the risk you're assuming.
James: Mm-hmm. One of the things...
Jesse: Some Marines go into the boardroom and they're in there for 20, 30 seconds. Hey, you're doing a good job. Keep it up. We'll see you at graduation. Others could be in there for 45 minutes to an hour.
James: One of the things that I saw, during my time on the MSG program ⁓ is I it was the first time that at least in, you recent history ⁓ where combat veterans were transitioning from the fleet ⁓ to ⁓ And some of us that did become ⁓ a bit of a problem because there were people who were great on the battlefield, great in the fleet. And then when it came time to be evaluated ⁓ by psychologist, they ran into some road bumps. Do we still see that today? Probably not as much, but are there things that they're looking for as it relates to that stuff?
Jesse: 100%. So we definitely do not see it nearly as much because not nearly as many students coming through have the same combat experiences that a lot of us have had. The biggest aspect of that is anything that is identified that is untreated. There are Marines that come to school and I have had Marines standing in front of me and we're talking about stuff and you know, maybe some past combat experience for minimal stuff.
James: Mm-hmm.
Jesse: And I'm sitting there and I'm looking at this gunnery sergeant I said, Hey, when you drive down the road and you see a box on the side of the road, does your butthole pucker a little bit when you drive past it? He's like, yeah, right. Because you know exactly where I'm going with. Right. And he's sitting there going, well, yeah, but that's normal. Like, guess what, man? That's not normal. That is PTS. Like you have never.
James: You gave me chills just saying that. Yep.
Jesse: talked about this, you've never gone through it, you don't even understand what it is that you're experiencing, feeling when you have those things. And to a lot of them, it's pretty eye-opening. And then at that point, depending on how severe it is, they very well might get dropped from school because now they have a medical condition that has just never been treated.
James: Right, right. ⁓ MSG school, think has, at least when I was in it might still have this ⁓ stigma of the attrition rate is pretty high. Is that still true?
Jesse: I think it still definitely has the stigma. our attrition rate, I mean, for a military school, yes, because our attrition rate is anywhere are advertised for any typical fiscal year runs about 27%. So about 27 % of the students that show up at the school are not going to graduate. Now that goes across all aspects. So we have three different categories of Marines that show up at MSG school. One being the detachment commanders. Again, about 27 % of them are not going to graduate. Our fleet watchstanders, 27 %-ish, are not going to graduate. And then we have this new population that a lot of people probably don't know about, which is the MG PEF. And those are, it's an acronym, which of course we love, Marine Guard Program Enlisted For. So those are essentially civilians who go talk to a Marine Corps recruiter, say, want to join the Marine Corps. And I've heard about this thing called Marine Security Guard program. How do they get out there to work at the embassies or consulates? ⁓ that's through the MG program. So they will, the MG PEPs will come to boot camp. They will go to school of infantry to be trained to be basic infantry rifle Marines, 0311s. And then they will either go to security forces company up to the white house to basically stand there as a ceremonial guard or come to MSG school. And again, that is our largest population. But again, about 30 % of those are not graduating from MSG school as well. again, the aspect of high attrition rate for most schools, yes, it is higher than most schools, but we're sitting at about 27 % is what our attrition is at school.
James: Can you talk about what gets most people dropped
Jesse: So we do a lot of data analysis on that. And over the last several years, one of the biggest things that has gotten short Marines dropped from MSG school, oddly enough, is range qualification. That is our biggest attrition right now is the actual qualifying with the State Department weapons because we do not use Marine Corps weapons. We use the Glock 19 pistol. We use the Mark 18 rifle, which is very similar to the M4, which Marines should be familiar with. And we use the Remington 870 shotgun. Typically the pistol and the shotgun are weapons that Marines have never touched. So they show up here. And again, we only have a certain amount of time to get them familiar with the weapons, get them to be able to apply the fundamentals. and then qualify on the diplomatic security course of fire. It's on a Marine Corps range. It's a diplomatic security range. And that's actually been the biggest number of attrition right now, followed by the risk assessment board.
James: Mm-hmm. It's interesting you say that because if you would have asked me that question, I would have speculated that it was behavior in some way.
Jesse: No, oh my goodness, behavior is actually probably one of the least things that get Marines kicked out of the school. So now the behavior early on, you we'll try to attack that and, give the counselors, hey, you're doing this wrong. You shouldn't be doing that. Why did you say that? Why did you do that? And if it's not an extreme case where it's like actually against like UCMJ and Marine Corps orders, like we'll counsel them on it. We'll see if their behavior improves. And then Ultimately, the risk assessment board will make that decision about whether or not they're going to make it out to post.
James: As we talk about the school, can you discuss what is probably the most surprising element of that education there at MSG School for Marines?
Jesse: the requirement to critically think. I think most Marines show up and they've either done some sort of schooling before where the instructor's sitting in front of them, foot stomping, hey, you might need to know this. We do not do that. We are gonna present you with all of the information, all the tools at your disposal, and then you have to decide when is the appropriate time to use it, how do I use it, what's the best application of it, and then of course there is still some of the memorization aspect where you need to remember that when I say chief of mission, that means the U S ambassador. It's not the commanding officer and they all, again, the acronyms and everything like that. I think ⁓ a lot of the curriculum is also diplomatic security curriculum. We don't handcuff like Marines. We don't use the baton like Marines. I already said we don't, we're not employing the same weapon systems and you have to be able to do it in a way that you can integrate with the. State Department and diplomatic security agents out of post. So like when a military police officer shows up, they're very used to handcuffing a suspect a certain way. They have to change their frame of mind. They have to change and adapt to the new way of doing stuff.
James: ⁓ Can you discuss what post-selection looks like?
Jesse: Okay, so post, we're gonna call it post assignment because there is no selection. You as an individual Marine, you don't get to select. So post assignment is for your first post going out. If you graduate the school, we have 185 different attachments that a Marine can go to nowadays. And there's a lot that goes into it. With modern technology, we are using computer algorithms.
James: Okay. Gotcha. I'm glad you said that.
Jesse: and ⁓ data analysis to actually select Marines to go to a post that both fits their strengths. We can minimize any weakness that we've identified in them, as well as that's the type of strength that that post specifically needs. So there's a lot that goes into the assignments process right now for the watch standards. ⁓ But again, a lot of it is computerized data analysis. It definitely is not, you know, we have a map on the wall and everybody's throwing darts at it with your name on it. Like that's not what's happening. Now, detachment commanders, on the other hand, every single detachment commander is hand selected to go to the post that they're going to.
James: Sure. ⁓ does anybody you know back in time you used to you know submit your top three choices and then they wouldn't give you any of them. ⁓ Do you even create that illusion ⁓ selection or.
Jesse: So we do. So the selection process is still there. Once you actually are already out post it with your second and third post, you can submit post choices. And again, it feeds it into the computer algorithm. That way there's a lot more stuff that goes into it with how you were doing and everything. ⁓ most Marines, and of course there's going to be plenty out there, like, ⁓ I never got my selections. I never got what I wanted. But majority of Marines are receiving either their first, second, or third choice. for posting. Now, of course, we know how the Marine Corps works. You're going to go where you're told to go. And if every single Marine on the program sits there and says, ⁓ I want to go to Paris, France, he only got two spots this class. So there's only two of you going. Everybody else is going somewhere else. So we try to get them to understand that you have to be realistic in what you're asking for. ⁓ When I was at my first post and put my dream sheet post wishes in for our second post,
James: Right.
Jesse: I listed Munich, Germany as a joke for my first post assignment because I was coming from Australia. Nobody goes from Germany, from Australia to Germany. That would be insane. So by listed it as joke, was like, I want to see what happens. And it was basically a throwaway. And then I listed Campala, Uganda as my second, which is what we really actually wanted. And then Port-au-Prince, Haiti. So I selected Uganda and Haiti because at the time my oldest daughter was about seven years old and her biggest complaint in life Slow internet on her iPad and I'm Sarah going. You're gonna have some time for you to move somewhere else and we're gonna see some hardship and you're gonna experience life Oddly enough first aren't calls me and he's like, post-assignments just came out you want to guess where you're going I was like Uganda. He's like no I was like, ⁓ cool. We're going to Haiti goes no I was like
James: you Right.
Jesse: There's no way you're sending me to Germany. He goes, I don't know who you freaking paid, but you got slated for Germany. And I'm like, what? Anyway, so we were shocked that that happened. But what it was, I had just recently done a, a G7 summit in Australia. And so I had that experience of helping the RSO manage that and the VIP support that went along with that. And there was a G20 summit.
James: Wow.
Jesse: happening in Germany that next year. So what they were trying to do is they were trying to take my experiences and my talent from what I did really well in Australia and move it to Germany to hopefully do well there as well. And there were some other things, there were some other issues with the detachment that I had shown I'm really good at this in Australia. They wanted to bring those talents to Germany. So after you look at holistic aspect of it, it was like, ⁓ that makes sense. Now I ended up not going to Germany.
James: Gotcha.
Jesse: And I got diverted to Kyrgyzstan because the detachment commander in Kyrgyzstan, his spouse was pregnant and she was starting to have pregnancy complications. Kyrgyzstan is not the country to have pregnancy complications in. So they were like, ⁓ we can move him to Germany, give him first world medical care and Wagner can go to Kyrgyzstan. So, so much goes into the assignments piece, like, and the human element and the human factor.
James: Mm-hmm.
Jesse: is consistently thought about and considered as well too.
James: Right for both watch standards and for detachment commanders Mm-hmm now, you know once Marines get out to post There are things that can get you removed from post Can you talk about what is the most common issue with MSG's across the board that gets them sent home?
Jesse: 100%. You So the biggest thing getting Marines in trouble right now is alcohol. And then the decisions that follow, alcohol consumption. That is hands down, that has been, I think, probably the biggest thing across probably the last 20 years, even in your time, that was more than likely probably what was getting Marines kicked off the program the most was the decisions that were being made after consuming what most would consider higher amounts of alcohol than what you should be.
James: And I think that has been the problem for the last 250 years of the Marine Corps.
Jesse: Well, for an organization that was founded in a bar, yeah, we might have a problem with that.
James: In a bar, right. Gotcha. So, you know, the MSG mission has evolved significantly over the years, particularly since Benghazi. You know, when I was on the program, the primary mission was the protection of classified material. And a lot of people think that's weird, right? That that's the primary mission of a security guard. Can you talk about that evolution of how that mission has changed and what it looks like today?
Jesse: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So you said it almost perfectly. The primary mission pre-Benghazi, when that happened in September of 2011, there was a primary mission, there was a secondary mission, and then there was a be prepared to statement. And primary was protection of classified material, secondary was protection of personnel, and then be prepared to paraphrasing, do whatever the chief of mission tells you to do. After Ambassador Stevens,
James: Mm-hmm.
Jesse: died in Benghazi. There was a lot of stuff that happened with the MSG program where people started really taking a look at what is it that we're using the Marines to do? What capabilities do the Marines actually have that we could capitalize on? And the National Defense Authorization Act of 2013 authorized the MSG program to grow by 1,000 Marines, basically double our size of what we had. And They also changed the mission statement. So now the mission of the Marine Security Guard is the protection of personnel and classified material at select diplomatic facilities overseas. And then they're still to be prepared to do whatever you're told to, statement at the end of that. And with those thousand Marines being added and the mission statement changing, detachment sizes grew. to from what we used to know as a one in five, one detachment commander, five watch standards being the smallest attachment to one in seven with the point of basically giving you a rover. So now you have a second Marine who can be on duty during the nighttime. So that post one's never left by themselves. They're a mobile post that can just kind of be everywhere that post one needs them to be to assist with the security mission. And then some of the other posts grew in size based off of threat. And now there are some posts that are a 1 in 12 because, hey, that almost mimics exactly what a ⁓ rifle team looks like. So then they grew the MSG program to help facilitate that mission requirement.
James: Mm-hmm. For those people who are listening who really don't know what an MSG does, day to day, what does life look like?
Jesse: Well, it's called Marine Security Guard duty because that's what you're doing. Day to day is your standing duty. Now this is not barracks duty. This is not fire watch. This is an armed condition one post and you are a sentry. You are standing inside what is more commonly referred to as the box and also what is considered post one. So post one being a numerical number.
James: Exactly.
Jesse: where you might have post one, might have post two, three, four, five, six, depending on the size of the facility that you're at. But everywhere is going to have that post one. And you will more than likely be standing there during daytime in your dress deltas or Charlie's based off of the ⁓ weather conditions for that time of the year, how we change those. And your monitoring cameras, your allowing access control. So we have remote control of the entire facility where with one or two flips of a switch, we can lock everything down magnetically, secure the entire building, and then control who's going where they're going, especially on the outer perimeters of our most secure buildings. But you're watching the cameras, you're manipulating cameras, you're working communication, you answer the phone. If somebody's calling post one, you're passing information and You're really there as an emergency response coordinator. The rest of the Marines that aren't standing duty are back at the house. They're sleeping because we have 24 hour duty where seven days a week, 24 hours a day, Marines are going to be at the embassy. So somebody is going to be sleeping because somebody has mid shift and there's just this constant rotation of that. are working on college. Marines are exercising. Marines are going out in town and enjoying the uniquenesses of the town, ⁓ hanging out with friends, like doing all the same normal things that everybody does in the United States, except you're doing it in a foreign country as a US diplomat. And then at any moment in time, every single Marine is response ready. So if something happens and post one makes that phone call and says, hey Marines, time to respond, get your butt back here to the embassy.
James: Mm-hmm.
Jesse: They are all ready to get back to the embassy or consulate and get completely kitted up in all of our response gear and then do whatever it is that needs to be done to provide protection to mission personnel and classified information.
James: Right. And then can you talk about what happens on mids in terms of how Marines go through everybody's offices? Whenever I try to tell that to people, they think I'm nuts, but it is actually a true duty of the Marines.
Jesse: It is so part of the mission statement being protection of classified material is we have to make sure that it is secure. So not only secure inside of our building, but insecure inside each and every single office. So every single night, the Marine security guard on mid shift is going to go through all of the classified spaces that are in that building and they're going to walk through and they're going to make sure that that all the safes are locked that. everything that is supposed to be secured is secured inside the safes. They're going to ⁓ just do a general security check. And then there is going to be one random office every single night that is going to get a detailed security inspection. And that Marine is probably going to spend about an hour or so in that office. Every single piece of paper that's out is going to get flipped through. and they're going to be looking for anything that is classified, any classified markings, ⁓ they're going to lift up the keyboard and see if there's a password underneath the keyboard, because somebody wrote down their password, and they're going to then try those passwords. And if they're going to look for safe combinations and uniquenesses and stuff like that, and if they can access any of the classified information, well, they're going to then secure that information and leave a little note behind for The person that's in that office that says, have your material, you can collect it from the regional security office tomorrow morning. And that ends up resulting in that employee getting a security infraction.
James: Right, the OF-117 is like the MSG's version of a speeding ticket.
Jesse: The OF-117 that is hilarious that you still remember exactly what it is.
James: I sure do. And I remember, you know, sometimes people when they come down to post one to pick up their stuff, they are not happy.
Jesse: They are not. They're not. And it is probably one of the biggest things that we stress to all the employees and everything else is like, look, this is the Marine just doing their job. Don't be mad at them. Don't hate them. But the old adage of a Marine on duty has no friends, 100%.
James: Yes, absolutely. And you know, I found that although those security inspections are important, it's one of the things that keeps you occupied in the of the night at an embassy.
Jesse: It does. It does. Yes, absolutely. Because it gets you out of the nuances of staring at the cameras and doing all that stuff. Now, like I said, we were supposed to have that rover doing that at nighttime. So you still could get in the aspect where post one is not leaving post one. Like the Marine on duty inside the box, they're going to stay in that box for the entire eight hour shift. And the rover is going to be the one that's actually going and doing the security inspections at nighttime.
James: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I do want to know, what is the focus right now on mental health for MSGs? Because ⁓ there seems to be a of issues in terms of suicide on the program. Can you talk about... Go ahead.
Jesse: So I can, I will 100 % talk about that. And I will say, and again, I don't think this is, this is me, Jesse Wagner making this statement. Mental health crisis is not an MSG problem. It's not a Marine Corps problem. It's not an American problem. It is 100 % a human being problem. And do our Marine security guards have issues? Absolutely, because they're people. And human beings nowadays are having more and more mental health crises. And unfortunately, it is making its way to the MSG program as well, too. It's probably one of the biggest things that we are screening for with the psychological evaluations. is how is this person actually doing mentally because we can't send those people out to post. Are there some nuances? Do people slip by? Unfortunately, yes. Do things happen out on the post that can change somebody from being mentally stable to unstable? Yes. Everybody talks about the failures, which frankly, typically a failure of a mental health crisis ends with the death of a Marine. Nobody ever talks about the successes. We have been very successful with identifying Marines, bringing them back to Quantico, getting the mental health treatment, and then reintegrating them on the program and getting them back out to post to be successful. Unfortunately, nobody really likes to talk about the successes, but we have been successful with that as well, too. And just because an MSG has a mental health crisis out of post. doesn't mean they're getting kicked off the program. It means they're going to get treatment. And if that treatment facilitates them getting back out to post and reintegrating them in the unit, 100 % it's gonna happen. We're doing a lot of stuff. We're putting a lot of resources towards training and ⁓ mental health aspects, making sure that everybody knows that these programs exist and what resources are available. We spend a lot of time at the school right now training all of our Marines on how to help. and how to handle crises because unfortunately we are standing in armed duty. And when you have a pistol at all times, it does make it very easy if you've made the decision that I don't want to be here anymore.
James: Sure, it's one of the things I don't think people talk about because MSG duty can be a lonely duty. It's not like the fleet where there's always Marines around. like if you're on mids, like we just talked about, you could be on mids for eight hours completely alone and not see or talk to anybody.
Jesse: So that's how it used to be. That's one of the reasons that the rover exists and the rover is supposed to be on nighttime. It's supposed to be on that mid shift so that marines never by themselves. Because if you think about it, like when you were days, when you would stand day shift or even into the evenings for each shift, typically there was somebody else there that was an MSG and that was your deck commander. You know, who do you call in the middle of the day when you need to go use the bathroom? You call the deck commander.
James: Mm-hmm. Okay. Right. Yeah. Right. Yep.
Jesse: So the same thing for that mids marine when he needs to use the bathroom or she needs to use the bathroom, who do you call? You call your Rover and you get them to come over. They stand inside post one because they're trained for that. You go do what you need to do. You come back and everything's good.
James: Mm-hmm. I think a lot of MSG's would be surprised to hear that, be honest with you. I don't think a lot of people know that ⁓ outside of, you know, the current cadre of Marines who on the program now.
Jesse: Absolutely. And not every post uses their rover at nighttime. Some of the or so does dictate how the marines are going to be used. And if there's a bigger threat and they want more marines during the day, then they'll move them around and everything like that.
James: Right. Mm-hmm. So, you you have a lot of time with the MSG program. It's something that apparently means a lot to you. Can you talk about what the program means to you personally?
Jesse: Opportunity. It's ⁓ the only place in the Marine Corps that provides Marines the opportunity that it does. Like getting to work with another agency, getting to work overseas consistently and the exposure to the world is probably one of the best things that I got from the program. And one of the reasons I love it so much, it's the only place in the Marine Corps where you're to experience the types of things that you can as a Marine security guard. ⁓ I love the character development that we see. I love the critical thinking aspect. I mean, you were on the program, you know exactly what it is offers. And I could sit here for hours talking about the benefits of the program, but it's the only place in the entire Department of Defense that exists where you can get these experiences in this way, shape and form. And you mentioned that the MSU program can be lonely. I think it would be surprising to a lot of people that have never stood post or been assigned to a detachment in a third world country. Typically, what we see is a first world country, the Marines actually are going to feel more lonely. A third world country, second world developing country, The Marines are going have a lot more connection to the embassy. They're going to have a much bigger connection to the community because you're going to be involved with stuff. They're going to be going out. They're going to be working with orphanages. They're going to be the Toys for Tots drive that we do and putting on your dress blues, collecting toys, and then taking them to children's hospitals around the world is so rewarding. And you end up having, even if you don't have that day-to-day sense of accomplishment because I'm just standing post one. You have a fulfillment knowing that you have contributed to helping somebody else out there in the world. think every Marine joins a Marine Corps for their own ⁓ individual reasons. But I would say inside every single Marine, there is a sense of wanting to belong to something bigger than yourself and serve your country in the biggest capacity that you can. You want to challenge, you want to excel. That's why you joined the Marine Corps. If you didn't want that challenge, you would join a different branch. And then the MSG program capitalizes on that that much more by putting them in these situations that they can flourish and they can develop as people. it's just what I absolutely love about the program.
James: Mm-hmm. Sure, and you made a really good point because my second post was Lome Togo, which most people have never even heard of. you know what made it? Yeah, what made it a good ⁓ post though is the camaraderie that we had in that detachment and in that embassy was unlike any place I had ever experienced outside of the battlefield because by default we had to be each other's
Jesse: ⁓ I love Lo May. What a great place. Yes, absolutely.
James: friends because there was nobody else to be friends with.
Jesse: Absolutely. And it is, think most end up, most MSGs end up like they sit there and they think they want to be stationed in Paris and Brussels and Vienna and all these European beautiful countries. And then they get there and they realize one, first world countries come in first world problems. You don't have first world problems anymore in a third world country. And then all of a sudden you're like, Oh, I'm to hang out with everybody every single day in Paris. And it's like, wait, there's so much other stuff to do. Everybody disappears.
James: Right. Right.
Jesse: That was one of the things that we noticed about Australia was me and my family were always doing essentially our own things, not hanging out with the embassy employees. We did a lot of stuff as a detachment because I knew that like Christmas morning, we, my wife and family showed up at the Marines house and we made breakfast and we did all these things. We set up a bunch of computers. had all the parents send me the, ⁓ know, gifts to me for their children. And then, ⁓ we set up the computers and we coordinated at a time so that. you know, as a huge family, everybody was logged in and we basically broadcast Christmas morning all over the world, all over the United States, all from Australia. And then they were open to presence. And we just a Christmas morning together as an attachment. And we used to do stuff like that all the time when it was going to the skate park, ⁓ going to the paintball range.
James: Mm-hmm.
Jesse: whatever it was, we did everything as an attachment. Then fast forward to Kyrgyzstan, we did everything as an embassy. There was an embassy softball team, whether it was, you know, we'd go out to the local go-kart track, which was pure chaos all the time. And it was fantastic. ⁓ A car ended up landing on top of me on my leg at one point. Like it was just pure chaos, which was fun. But we always did things together. I would get a random phone call on a Saturday morning. Hey, grab the Marines, come on over to the house. We're having a pool party. Pizza's already on its way. Sweet. Hey guys, party at Bill's house. And they're like, yep, let's go. And so you ended up having a much more bigger connection to the embassy with the smaller that it is because you you said it to yourself. Like that's who you have in the country to be with.
James: Yeah, you know, my final post was Ottawa, Canada. And as great as Canada was, it was a very different experience because it really was just a nine to five. The embassy community really didn't interact with us. And then the Marines had their own lives. So we would see them when we were changing over post. It wasn't like we would spend a lot of time together because so many of the Marines had developed relationships outside of the embassy because, you know, it's Canada.
Jesse: Thank Yes. Absolutely.
James: And that was an eye-opening experience for me because it wasn't my first two posts were, you know, developing countries where it was a tight knit crew. then Canada wasn't like that at all.
Jesse: Yes. there is, let's talk about this aspect of it though, right? How was the Marine Corps ball in Canada?
James: That was interesting because the equivalent of Canada's chairman of the Joint Chiefs came to our ball. And that's a huge deal. That's a huge deal. know, the person who's in charge of the Canadian military.
Jesse: Yes. Absolutely. And I think that's part of what a lot of people don't realize. Right. So we're talking third world countries, small amounts of American, small amount of people, but every year the MSG program as Marines, we still celebrate the Marine Corps birthday. And when you're in those small countries, you're to be so tight knit. That's going to be a very intimate gathering. It's going to be small. It's going to be great. And everybody's going to have a fantastic time. As you move into the London's, the Paris's, the Brussels where NATO headquarters is. like Australia, had a partnership with the Australian War College and probably Canada as well too, where we have these military partnerships. The Marine Corps birthday ball is the social event of the year. And that is where, I had a detachment of five Marines in Australia, but we had 465 people at our ball. And we demonstrate, we show off, we, for lack of better words, the term is called peacocking, where we're sitting there showing our beautiful feathers and our dress blues. we do the whole adjutant thing. We do the entire ceremony that exists for the birthday ball. How do you do that with five marines? It's very interesting, but you make it work. And we do the cake cutting. We do the color guard. We do all of those aspects to celebrate and acknowledge
James: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jesse: birthday of the United States Marine Corps and the amount of people that attend that that are not Marines are not military and are diplomats of foreign countries. ⁓ had yes, exactly to your point, we had the commandant of the ⁓ Royal Australian Marines at the ball.
James: Yeah, it's the social event of the year in the ⁓ embassy community and it is it's not like a fleet ball, know fleet balls are kind of and No, the marine ball ⁓ on the program is absolutely different and you brought up a something I didn't think of Can you just briefly discuss collateral duties? Because I think that is something that smacks a lot of marines in the face when they get to the msg program
Jesse: Absolutely. Absolutely. So as we've talked about, it's a small detachment. All of the things that have to happen at a big unit still have to happen at a small unit. The way you do that and the way you facilitate that is by giving every single Marine of the detachment, whether it's a detachment commander all the way down to the most junior Lance corporal, everybody is going to hold a collateral duty. So the types of collateral duties that exist are, you you're going to have drivers more than... So you're going to have vehicles. Somebody has to monitor the vehicle's maintenance. Somebody has to make sure the log books are being filled out. So you're to have a vehicle NCO. We sell a lot of stuff in order to raise money. Like I was talking about, going to the go-kart track, going to the paintball range, going to movies, doing all those eating out as a detachment. All of that is paid for with our Morale Welfare and Recreation Fund. We raise that money by selling coins, selling polos. selling t-shirts, like selling things to the embassy community and visitors. So somebody has to manage the money. Somebody has to manage all of the ⁓ stock that we're selling, reorder it when it gets low. And so that's all being done from the Marines. The Marine Security Guard residents, the house typically is going to have a cook. So you have a mess fund manager because the Marines are collectively pulling their money together. they're buying the food, somebody has to manage the funds, somebody has to manage the cook, somebody has to make the menu. ⁓ We have supply, we have C-Burn NCOs, we have training NCOs, have operations NCOs that are doing all of those functions that a normal unit's doing. Every time that we do a response drill, somebody's gotta log it, because we know if it's not on paper, it didn't happen. We do all, we file our after actions, like all of this stuff that goes into running a unit. also has to happen, it just happens in a much smaller capacity. But it's the Marines day to day that are making that happen.
James: Mm-hmm, I think. Yeah, and I think that surprises a lot of Marines because, you know, if you're like the MWR, the ball and CO, you could be responsible for thousands of dollars that you have to keep account of that money, you know.
Jesse: Absolutely. There was a point in time building up to the like a week or so before the ball when I had over $70,000 in a safe in my office because we were selling tickets and our ball budget was about $74,000 in Australia.
James: You Wow, wow. So Jesse, as we wrap up here, what would you say to Marines who are considering MSG duty?
Jesse: Do it. Freaking do it. Like I said, Marines are looking for a challenge. This is a place to do it. This is probably one of the most rewarding, challenging duties that a Marine can do. We hear all the time that Marines are like, oh, I want to deploy. I want to be overseas. I want to be with Marines. We are deployed to 185 locations, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, around the world, 365 days. We're often deployed as small teams. We are deployed behind enemy lines in most locations. And it's real. Everything that we are doing, everything that every Marine seeks in the Marine Corps. know, when you talk to a Marine recruiter, they sit there and they hand you the challenge tags, I believe they're called, and you sit there and you're like, oh, I'm a long to belong travel education, all those things. The MSG program is the single unit that can offer every single Marine what it is they're looking. And like I've said numerous times in this conversation, be a good person, help others, and you will be a successful MSG. Whether it's at school, come in with an open mind, learn something new, be able to adapt, and you're going to be perfectly fine. It's at school and out at post.
James: Master Gunnery Sergeant Jesse Wagner. Thanks for taking the time.
Jesse: Absolutely. It was a pleasure and I cannot wait to hopefully get some more Marines at the school that are like, ⁓ yeah, I heard the podcast. We're excited to be here. And I can't wait to see how this program grows in the near future.