Polymath World Episode 62 NASA Astronaut Steve Swanson

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Hello and welcome to the Polymath World channel and I'm so excited today because we're
talking to another astronaut and I love talking to astronauts as you know.

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And we got a great one today and we're gonna dig into a lot of science and beautiful stuff
in his career.

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It's ISS commander Dr.

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Steve Swanson.

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Thanks so much for joining me today, Steve.

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It's wonderful to see you again.

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It's a pleasure, Sam.

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Great to be here.

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So I love starting with astronauts on when space first came into your life.

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Uh was there a point in your childhood where you really knew that being an astronaut was
something you wanted to be?

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I would say not being an astronaut, but space came into my life through sci science
fiction.

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You know, I ended up uh watching reruns of the original Star Trek series.

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And that's when I got hooked on the whole thing.

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just but I didn't think about me doing it until I was like twenty five.

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So it was a big change for that.

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But uh I've been hooked on, you know, science fiction and space ever since I was young.

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Really?

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Twenty five.

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That's um that's really amazing.

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So w do you have any clear, distinctive space memories that were a big influence on you?

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man.

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Um well for sure the uh first uh shuttle mission that was I was in uh college at that
time.

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And that uh definitely was uh I watched the whole mission kind of idea and really got
caught up in that one.

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And that started me with uh you know, that was a really unique uh I don't know, it's me
experience to see that all happen.

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'cause I have to admit when I was younger I didn't really even pay much attention to
Apollo.

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I knew what was going on, but I was the type of kid that was always outside running
around.

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And so I was never much for watching stuff on T V that especially like news or anything
like that.

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I was uh I was wasn't one

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doing that.

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So I didn't really pay much attention to it until uh a shuttle's era.

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What part of the country did you grow up in?

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In Colorado mostly.

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And so and I lived grew up in the mountains of Colorado, so I was always outdoors.

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And that's what I like doing.

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I still like doing it.

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That's why my retirement is gonna be going back and and living outdoors again.

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So

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Yeah, that theme runs constantly through uh your your career and your journey looking at
it.

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Another thing that really runs through is science and engineering.

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Um w where you were a very sciencey engineering kid.

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Yeah, I was a nerd.

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yep.

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Uh and I really didn't you know, I didn't realize it for sure until you get like to the
high school age for us and then I I excelled and enjoyed the math and science classes.

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And so that was always you know, it's different than most other students maybe.

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And so I realized that that's kinda where my path was gonna lead me.

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And so and but I didn't really think about too much until that time.

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Mm.

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Did you have any big role models for science and engineering?

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Oh man, that's a good question.

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I got my dad started off as an engineer, so he definitely he was always kind of pushing
that a little bit, ended up going into management later in in life.

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But he did like engineering and that aspect of it and all that guess I I think uh from his
you know, just the way he talked about things, uh his life and what he liked to do, I

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could tell he was into that asshole also.

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Yeah.

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Mm.

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So you went to you stayed in state, you went to Colorado Boulder for your your Bachelor of
Science in Engineering Physics.

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Um what's engineering physics specifically?

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Is it exactly as it sounds, just sort of the fusion of the two?

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Yeah, it's mostly physics with electives and engineering.

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And so and it was I wasn't really uh again, uh I didn't have a lot of forethought or
direction in this time of my life.

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And so I knew I wanted uh an engineering kind of uh degree and I didn't know exactly
though what engineering degree I want and in

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Back then I didn't really do much research.

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Uh you know, eighteen I was not that good at, you know, uh thinking things through, being
thoughtful about all my different options and and being, I guess, more logical about it.

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I just kind of am like, I wanna head down that path.

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And so I ah

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Went to University of Colorado just 'cause it was the easiest school, you know, home home,
you know, near my home kind of stuff.

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And uh and picked uh engineering, but again they didn't even have a major until uh was
starting my sophomore year.

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And

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for that though I didn't uh know which one to go with and started talking to people and
and I didn't know uh how difficult it was to get into the actual majors and s you know,

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even in the College of Engineering.

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I hadn't done that yet.

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And so uh I didn't talk to a counselor, which I should have done, but I did talk to a
friend of a friend who was an engineer and I said, Oh, go for engineering physics.

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It's a difficult degree.

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Uh not many students since you're guaranteed to get into it.

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And uh and so I said, I'll try that then.

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I didn't even know what it was either.

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And so

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and I knew I liked physics, but I didn't know exactly, you know, the details of it.

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And and so I went down that path.

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And and did get in and it and after about well about probably starting maybe like halfway
through my junior year, I realized maybe this wasn't the best one for me.

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I'm more of a maybe say a mechanical engineer or or something else, a different, you know,
something a little bit different uh than that.

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We started getting to more theoretical physics and I realized that that's cool stuff, but
it's not as hands on as I would like to have for me.

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And so I s I thought about changing and then I realized or I actually talked to a
counselor at that time and they said

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if you change, you know it's great, but you're gonna you have to do another year uh of
schoolwork, which makes sense of course.

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And so I I was like, no, I don't wanna do that.

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I just wanna get out of college.

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I wasn't even thinking about like what job I wanted out of college at this time.

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I just knew I needed a degree and get out of college.

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And so that was my only goal.

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And so I said, no, I'm not gonna do that, I'm gonna continue on.

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And so I did.

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Uh however though I was not that motivated uh in that subject matter, I have to admit.

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And also there, you know, uh being uh young and not not too mature, I was I easily swayed
by other things with college life at the university.

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Uh so uh

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I I played sports, I did other things and so uh my grade grade point average was not that
good.

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you know, I graduated but it was not um a a good uh you know

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I guess a job done on that one.

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So uh after I got out of that uh job I realized it was difficult I didn't get a a a job
out of that.

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Uh so I say I went and worked construction for a year and that made me rethink about uh
what I wanted to do and r and really pick something that would be uh I think I would enjoy

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uh and also more

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you know, have better success at.

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So it had it took me a while to d to mature enough to get to that point in life.

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Hm.

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Well, I I mean that story happens to a lot of people, including a lot of astronauts, the
number of them that say that you know, they enjoyed university and then in their final

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year they sort of had a panic and went all in and and

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I was after, yeah, when I got done.

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Yeah.

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So but it was actually, you know, as you say it all works out.

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I always like to point out that, you know, you don't have to be perfect to achieve your
goals, right?

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You just have to uh keep trying and improve yourself.

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You know, it's not about, you know, always being perfect.

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So don't get too, you upset or anything like that.

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And when you do make mistakes, it's gonna happen.

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You're gonna make, you know, to do things that are not perfect along your path.

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So don't don't take that as a big hit.

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You can always recover.

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Absolutely.

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That's great advice.

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I mean, I I was not mature enough for university in my twenties.

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I went back in my thirties and

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right at the ship there.

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so so you end up going I'm curious here, 'cause you you go from working in construction to
down in Florida, you know, more a space country for your masters in computing and computer

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science really sort of becomes your education focus after that.

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So I'm curious as to how that shift happened and uh about your master's degree at Florida
Atlantic.

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Yeah, so um one thing when I was uh working construction, uh I was actually, you know,
living back home in Colorado, and my dad bought uh a a computer.

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One of the first it was the I don't know about the Radio Shack Trash 80 we called them,
TRS eighty.

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And uh and I started programming.

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On my own just picked it up and started doing it.

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And what I realized I like is developing algorithms.

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Uh and that's what to me was a fun aspect of of that, you know, computing at that time was
you got to develop algorithms to solve problems.

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And and I realized I like doing that.

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So that's when I tried that that that gave me the idea then of going on and getting a
degree in that.

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And it was just starting off pretty much, early years of computer science.

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And so uh it was definitely I I found it enjoyable.

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you know, but parts of anything are not always great, but doing the algorithm stuff to me
was was

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what I liked the most about it.

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I liked, you know, you know, basically kind of deriving algorithms and that aspect of it.

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And I realized that was a fun thing for me, my brain, it worked out well what I like to
do.

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And that's actually getting my first job at NASA was using that aspect.

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So it really worked out well for me to go down that path.

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And in the course, I don't know if you know, but I did much better as in that master's
program, you know, that and so that helped of

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course when they you know for NASA and stuff to see that I improved and I did have the
abilities to to do well in school.

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Did you actively seek out a job at NASA at this point or or was it circumstantial?

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so when I finished my master's, that's when I the idea was becoming an astronaut kind of
came in.

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And so I did apply at that time.

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However, I was not close to having a decent application uh for an astronaut.

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They did um kind of after a little bit give me I sent back a letter and said, Hey, uh if
you, you know, are still interested, you can come work here and uh and learn more about

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NASA and improve yourself and all that kind of stuff.

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And so I did take them up on that when they offered that.

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And it it's very interesting to me because you you join NASA and y you're working in uh
aspects of shuttle training, but it's nineteen eighty seven, so the Challenger disaster is

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is very recent.

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Um what

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it was definitely pretty recent.

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And uh and we we weren't even flying when I come back in, uh we weren't flying the shuttle
just yet.

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And so uh it was definitely a a big deal with with the whole program.

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But we're still we're training astronauts to fly the shuttle.

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And what I my job was on was called the shuttle training aircraft, which is an airborne
simulator of the space shuttle.

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And

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It was I didn't even know this thing existed, right?

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And but it ended up being like the perfect job for me because it was uh

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You know, being an airborne simulator is a very complex vehicle.

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So they've modified a Gulfstream G2 business jet to be able to have the characteristics of
a shuttle.

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uh So during the simulation, you'd have the gear down, the engines reverse thrust.

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We move the flaps or are changed out to be flap ron so they can go up and down.

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So the idea is you can create less less lift and more drag with them.

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And and all with all that together gives you to be able to do the glide slope and
characteristics of a shuttle.

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20 degrees glide slope on the shuttle.

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And so it was much different in that aspect.

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But the way that software worked was you would have uh of course a SNF pilot on the left
side of the cockpit.

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They would have a stick in front of them that would be uh not a physical one.

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I mean it is a physical one, but it was a fly-by-wire system.

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So we would put inputs into the computer.

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The computer would calculate then the math model of the shuttle, what it would be doing in
the situation.

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And then we had

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algorithms that would do the um we call it fla model uh flat geez all of a sudden I forgot
what it we called it.

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That's pretty funny.

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but it would be a model following is what it was.

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And so you would uh make the aircraft do exactly what that model was doing.

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And uh and so that was again, it was all algorithms and I really actually got into that
aspect of it.

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I didn't know if a flight control systems till I got there.

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And so I started really researching that, learning that, learned how this whole thing
worked in great detail.

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And to me it was just uh engineering-wise, it was a fantastic job to have because it was
right down my alley of what I like to do.

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And I find out I really like flying too, so I actually got worked over uh into the flying
side of it, helping train astronauts doing that aspect.

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And so I got, you know, flight experience.

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I got operational experience.

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I got some great work on, you know, just algorithms and doing all sorts of interesting to
me software.

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And, you know, and it was always to me software is just a tool to solve a problem, right?

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It's and these problems we're doing like how to make this aircraft fly like the shuttle.

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And it was really interesting to just be able to use that and solve these problems with
it.

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I don't know.

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I really enjoyed that job tremendously.

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And so to me it was just uh a perfect fit for what I like to do.

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W was that um quite connected to what you ended up doing your PhD on?

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Yeah, actually, exactly.

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So when I was during that job, uh I got lucky and got a fellowship I applied to with NASA
to take a year off and go get my uh start my PhD.

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So I did that and uh got all my coursework done, got the exams out of the way, all that
kind of stuff.

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And then uh

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and I picked a dissertation project uh that was based off of a aircraft that was flying.

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So I made it kind of a semi work uh

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you know, a dissertation.

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And so that worked out really well.

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Uh and it was kind of fun to do at the same time.

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Uh so uh and I don't know that that that combination too is really another lucky thing I
got to do.

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I was really, you know, fortunate to be able to have that opportunity to to work, you
know, to get a PhD and not have to spend and also work, you know, do it on something at

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work and improve the project at work and all that kind of stuff.

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So it was definitely to me a lucky experience to get that.

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Very fortunate.

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Yeah, terrific.

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And it sounds like tons of fun.

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And and you're d you're doing that in Texas, uh Texas A and And um I I couldn't help but
notice that you you're awarded your PhD the same year that you become an astronaut, uh, in

210
00:14:34,097 --> 00:14:35,069
nineteen ninety eight.

211
00:14:35,069 --> 00:14:36,919
So so it all lined up for you.

212
00:14:36,919 --> 00:14:42,635
all lined up and it was kinda you know, you gotta look at the application process for
being an astronaut.

213
00:14:42,635 --> 00:14:45,458
Uh you're competing against many different people.

214
00:14:45,458 --> 00:14:53,591
And so you have to kinda get these different things kinda checked off on the box to be,
you know, m into that group.

215
00:14:53,591 --> 00:14:54,321
put it that way.

216
00:14:54,321 --> 00:14:59,004
And and one of the things that I knew pretty much to get there, I need to have a PhD.

217
00:14:59,004 --> 00:15:06,297
And so I pretty much that was the last thing to get checked off on all the things that I
needed, I think, to help make it along the way.

218
00:15:06,297 --> 00:15:14,201
There's still, you know, it's still a little bit of luck at the end because there's still,
you know, a hundred people uh out of that, you know, group that they're interviewing that

219
00:15:14,201 --> 00:15:17,152
are well qualified and could do a fantastic job.

220
00:15:17,152 --> 00:15:23,545
And so uh but you had to get to that group of like a hundred and to do that I had to have
a PhD to do that.

221
00:15:23,545 --> 00:15:25,256
just to get through the process.

222
00:15:25,256 --> 00:15:33,361
And then and then they start looking at at, you know, your capabilities more uh you know,
through the inter interview process and that kind of stuff to see if you can be a good fit

223
00:15:33,361 --> 00:15:35,052
for the t for being an astronaut.

224
00:15:35,052 --> 00:15:39,205
So but yeah, it took that to get to like over the hump, I would say.

225
00:15:39,595 --> 00:15:39,997
Hm.

226
00:15:39,997 --> 00:15:42,883
What was the name of your class in ninety eight?

227
00:15:43,565 --> 00:15:47,436
Uh, we were the penguins, 'cause we would never fly.

228
00:15:49,414 --> 00:15:51,148
why did they call you that?

229
00:15:51,310 --> 00:16:00,831
Oh well so when we came in, uh NASA had been thinking that they would need quite a few
astronauts.

230
00:16:00,831 --> 00:16:05,833
To handle the flight load, because they planned on having, you know, six, seven people on
the space station.

231
00:16:05,833 --> 00:16:07,704
And the space station was supposed to start in '98.

232
00:16:07,704 --> 00:16:09,005
We got selected in ninety-eight.

233
00:16:09,005 --> 00:16:15,001
Um, we were gonna have like six shuttle flights a year with seven crew members on there.

234
00:16:15,001 --> 00:16:18,179
And so they had this whole plan, you know, we need a lot of astronauts.

235
00:16:18,179 --> 00:16:20,700
So the class before '96 was really big.

236
00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:25,693
Uh and so the biggest class ever of NASA astronauts.

237
00:16:25,693 --> 00:16:30,735
And we were close, we know we weren't that big, but we were still probably like I don't
know, three-fifths of their side or something.

238
00:16:30,735 --> 00:16:31,855
Something like that.

239
00:16:31,976 --> 00:16:34,618
And so it was still a decent sized class.

240
00:16:34,618 --> 00:16:40,118
And then as things started playing out, they realized that it wasn't going to come to
fruition like that.

241
00:16:40,118 --> 00:16:41,172
It wasn't going to happen.

242
00:16:41,172 --> 00:16:47,246
So there ended up being this huge queue of non-flown astronauts and not many
opportunities.

243
00:16:47,246 --> 00:16:51,629
And so it was that was kind of known once we started.

244
00:16:51,629 --> 00:16:55,331
And so then that's the name because they knew it was going to be ages before we flew.

245
00:16:55,331 --> 00:17:00,185
And it was a like for me, it was nine years before I flew, and it was just because of
that.

246
00:17:00,185 --> 00:17:00,816
And it was just

247
00:17:00,816 --> 00:17:04,222
it was gonna be known and and it was like nothing you could do about it.

248
00:17:04,222 --> 00:17:09,652
And so it it you know, and like any known thing, you make fun of that just to help you
through the process.

249
00:17:09,889 --> 00:17:10,359
Yeah.

250
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,491
A and and you're you've moved into this ISS era.

251
00:17:13,491 --> 00:17:17,121
I mean y um this is the end of the nineties, early two thousands.

252
00:17:17,121 --> 00:17:20,356
You you know it's all about the International Space Station now.

253
00:17:21,227 --> 00:17:30,313
and y you have four orbiters at that time, but then the Columbia disaster happens uh and
and so there's no flying for two and a half years, I think.

254
00:17:30,313 --> 00:17:35,536
Uh I I think that I think there was one flight in in the space of three and a half years.

255
00:17:36,397 --> 00:17:39,929
but you do eventually get to fly in two thousand seven.

256
00:17:40,193 --> 00:17:46,454
on um ST STS a hundred and seventeen um on Atlantis for for two weeks.

257
00:17:47,297 --> 00:17:50,713
and so so tell me about your first ever flight.

258
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:53,252
Oh man.

259
00:17:53,252 --> 00:17:57,558
It was good and I I got lucky at the jobs I got to do also.

260
00:17:57,558 --> 00:18:04,988
Um so be having the flight experience that I had uh working on the shelter in the
aircraft, I

261
00:18:04,989 --> 00:18:08,771
got selected also as mission two which is the flight engineer on board.

262
00:18:08,851 --> 00:18:16,795
So I'm I sit between the pilot and commander and you know both our test pilots and I I run
the checklist for all dynamic phases of flight.

263
00:18:16,795 --> 00:18:21,437
So you know launch, entry, et cetera, and and work with them.

264
00:18:21,437 --> 00:18:24,108
And so we'd you know go through all the training with them on the space shuttle.

265
00:18:24,108 --> 00:18:28,720
Uh and that was really you know it's a great opportunity just to get that aspect of it.

266
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:34,893
And then I also got uh to do spacewalks, to do to two spacewalks on that one and flight

267
00:18:34,893 --> 00:18:40,417
Both robotic arms, the one on the shuttle and one on the ISS, and just do a bunch of other
you know fun stuff.

268
00:18:40,417 --> 00:18:46,010
It was was it to me it was just a fantastic first flight to get the opportunity to do so
many different things.

269
00:18:46,010 --> 00:18:51,803
Uh, and uh, and it was a great crew, uh, fun, fun group of people to work with.

270
00:18:51,803 --> 00:18:52,525
I don't know.

271
00:18:52,525 --> 00:19:01,041
So it ended up being just a wonderful experience, and uh, you know, I got really lucky to
be on that one with that crew and and do the things I got to do.

272
00:19:01,041 --> 00:19:04,803
And the idea, the objective was of that mission was to put a solar.

273
00:19:04,803 --> 00:19:06,154
array on the ISS.

274
00:19:06,154 --> 00:19:14,289
So we had the heaviest payload uh you know, to the ISS ever taken up, uh and, you know,
and put on and stuff like that.

275
00:19:14,289 --> 00:19:19,532
So it was really, you know, kinda complex at the same same time, it was just a fun thing
to do.

276
00:19:19,919 --> 00:19:22,742
Yeah, it sounds like you you got to do a bit of everything.

277
00:19:22,742 --> 00:19:24,193
Uh really quite incredible.

278
00:19:24,193 --> 00:19:32,340
Um Yeah, y you mentioned I I had noticed that it it was the heaviest flight ever by the
shuttle.

279
00:19:32,340 --> 00:19:43,490
Um taking up solar arrays and the S3, S4 truss, really important for the ISS and for its
expansion, for its power, for doing more science, um all that you can do.

280
00:19:43,490 --> 00:19:47,423
Um I'd love to hear what your first EVA was like.

281
00:19:48,102 --> 00:19:49,422
Oh yeah.

282
00:19:50,263 --> 00:20:01,568
but first off let's say we start in the pool right to train and we do so if and for the
shuttle flights, for every EVA you're going to do, you have to have at least seven runs of

283
00:20:01,568 --> 00:20:03,549
that EVA in the pool.

284
00:20:03,807 --> 00:20:13,802
And that's so you get it really down really, really well, what you're doing, uh, you know,
where you're going to work, um, how you're gonna set up your work site when you get there.

285
00:20:13,802 --> 00:20:21,157
And that's an interesting thing about EVA when you say to set up your work site, because
you go out and you have a specific spot on the space station and where you're gonna do it.

286
00:20:21,157 --> 00:20:22,946
And you have to know where the handrails are.

287
00:20:22,946 --> 00:20:30,069
Say you have a bag with you with tools, where you're gonna put the bag, how you're gonna
attach it down, uh, all this kind of stuff, where you're gonna put all your tethers for

288
00:20:30,069 --> 00:20:32,520
you and everything you have and all that.

289
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:33,891
So if you can be really efficient

290
00:20:33,891 --> 00:20:38,816
About that, you can do things quickly and get done and accomplish all your tasks.

291
00:20:38,816 --> 00:20:40,828
And so that's kind of you work that over and over again.

292
00:20:40,828 --> 00:20:44,366
So you have that nailed down exactly how you're gonna do it, everything.

293
00:20:44,366 --> 00:20:48,475
So you're not kind of doing as much real-time thinking when you get on onto that.

294
00:20:48,475 --> 00:20:50,607
You you have a good plan at the beginning.

295
00:20:50,607 --> 00:20:56,272
So you come, you get pretty comfortable again working in the suit, and uh

296
00:20:57,011 --> 00:20:59,175
and just, you know, efficient at it at that time.

297
00:20:59,175 --> 00:21:01,430
But the big thing is you haven't done it in real space.

298
00:21:01,430 --> 00:21:04,736
The pool is different than uh the real world.

299
00:21:04,736 --> 00:21:07,500
And the biggest difference is the water drag.

300
00:21:07,677 --> 00:21:18,684
And so what you notice there is when I try to move in the pool, of course, as I you know,
as I'm trying to go across the station, I have to keep pulling over and over again because

301
00:21:18,684 --> 00:21:19,954
water drag just stops me.

302
00:21:19,954 --> 00:21:20,765
Right?

303
00:21:20,765 --> 00:21:26,648
And so you kinda get but when you get out in space of course, you do one pull and you just
keep going because there is no drag.

304
00:21:26,648 --> 00:21:28,019
That's one of the big issues.

305
00:21:28,019 --> 00:21:33,592
The the other one is the drag kind of helps you when you want stability.

306
00:21:33,737 --> 00:21:34,757
So

307
00:21:34,990 --> 00:21:44,654
Um and the way when they weigh you out in the pool uh so you don't go up or down in the
pool column, because that's a neutrally buoyant idea, and so you're not floating or or

308
00:21:44,654 --> 00:21:45,815
sinking in the pool.

309
00:21:45,815 --> 00:21:51,823
But they do have to weigh you out with a certain attitude uh so that you're kind of will
always float back to that attitude.

310
00:21:51,823 --> 00:21:57,450
And that's like a 30 degrees uh pitch down kind of here, here's your head, feet down like
this, and you're kind of like this.

311
00:21:57,450 --> 00:22:00,421
It just is the the most optimal way to do it in the pool.

312
00:22:00,421 --> 00:22:05,063
But that gives you this false sense of stability when you're working, as you

313
00:22:05,063 --> 00:22:06,515
you won't always move.

314
00:22:06,515 --> 00:22:08,548
You kind of will stay in that position.

315
00:22:08,548 --> 00:22:10,731
And so some people will get used to

316
00:22:12,261 --> 00:22:20,965
working like when they they stop someplace and you take both hands off a station but you
do have a tether on somewhere but it's just a tether and you start working with two hands

317
00:22:20,965 --> 00:22:24,427
in the real world you're gonna start rotating as soon as you let go.

318
00:22:24,427 --> 00:22:32,621
And so you're always gonna have this rotation in the in the in out in space uh while on
the pool you're kind of stable and you gotta realize that and that was definitely

319
00:22:32,621 --> 00:22:33,581
something to get used to.

320
00:22:33,581 --> 00:22:38,493
I mean I knew it was gonna happen, I've been told that, but until you do it in the real
world it's a big difference.

321
00:22:38,493 --> 00:22:42,165
Uh that that instability of always being able to move

322
00:22:42,165 --> 00:22:44,517
and trying to figure out a way to keep yourself stable.

323
00:22:44,517 --> 00:22:46,519
It was definitely something different.

324
00:22:46,620 --> 00:22:53,526
And of course the other biggest different thing you have is you have uh you're out in a
vacuum space above the earth.

325
00:22:53,526 --> 00:22:54,407
And that was one thing.

326
00:22:54,407 --> 00:22:56,388
So when I did my first spacewalk

327
00:22:57,589 --> 00:22:59,010
Uh it was dark when we went out.

328
00:22:59,010 --> 00:23:03,131
We go around the Earth every ninety minutes, but pretty much half the time it's dark, half
the time it's light.

329
00:23:03,131 --> 00:23:06,993
And it was dark when I went out the hatch and the hatch faces down towards Earth.

330
00:23:07,033 --> 00:23:15,136
And uh and really which you can only see depends where you are over Earth, but I couldn't
see much of Earth at that time because it was over like the ocean, so it was dark.

331
00:23:15,216 --> 00:23:19,898
And uh and I could have my uh lights on my helmet, so I see about ten feet in front of me.

332
00:23:19,978 --> 00:23:27,269
And and I've as I head out to my worksite, which is a ways out, it was actually on the far
end of the space station, uh

333
00:23:27,889 --> 00:23:30,740
And and I felt really comfortable.

334
00:23:30,740 --> 00:23:37,514
I felt, okay, I'm I'm this is like just kinda like the pool enough, good enough for me
that I can I can I understand exactly where I am and know what I need to do.

335
00:23:37,514 --> 00:23:39,444
I'm feeling comfortable, I'm working well in the suit.

336
00:23:39,444 --> 00:23:45,978
Uh and so uh I was feeling pretty good at that time coming out, like I I think this is
gonna go well.

337
00:23:45,978 --> 00:23:55,872
And so I get out to my work start start working and uh and then the sun comes out and I am
say on the edge of station where I have a station and I'm off to the left of me and I'm

338
00:23:55,872 --> 00:23:57,696
working and and

339
00:23:57,696 --> 00:24:02,139
And I look down and the you know the sun comes out and there's the earth 250 miles below
me with nothing.

340
00:24:02,139 --> 00:24:06,263
I mean below me between my feet and earth is 250 miles and there's nothing.

341
00:24:06,263 --> 00:24:08,344
My brain kind of freaked out on that.

342
00:24:08,344 --> 00:24:11,366
It went, it just went like this is not a safe place to be.

343
00:24:11,366 --> 00:24:13,448
You shouldn't be here at this time.

344
00:24:13,448 --> 00:24:17,516
And so I had to like, you know, I grabbed onto the henrail and had to talk myself down.

345
00:24:17,516 --> 00:24:20,734
Uh, you know, like it it's okay, you know, you're floating.

346
00:24:20,734 --> 00:24:21,744
It's interesting.

347
00:24:21,744 --> 00:24:27,779
You're I don't know who you're having this conversation with, but it's like a subconscious
versus conscious mind thing going on where you have to

348
00:24:27,779 --> 00:24:29,720
convince yourself that it's all good.

349
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:36,644
And it, you know, it took me like a minute or two to kinda recover from that aspect and
then get back to work again.

350
00:24:36,644 --> 00:24:38,355
And it was definitely an interesting thing.

351
00:24:38,355 --> 00:24:46,028
I did not expect that to happen, but it it uh you know it did and you know just had to
figure out a way to overcome it and work my way through it.

352
00:24:46,239 --> 00:24:49,140
but I still enjoyed it, you know, you get more comfortable each time than you do it.

353
00:24:49,140 --> 00:24:51,612
And as time goes on it you get more and more comfortable with it.

354
00:24:51,612 --> 00:24:54,033
Your body gets used to it and realize it's okay.

355
00:24:54,295 --> 00:24:58,671
But uh the first little bit definitely threw me for a loop for a minute.

356
00:24:59,235 --> 00:25:06,698
Yeah, I've and you've done a lot of V VAs, um, which is is is a great great thing about
your career.

357
00:25:06,698 --> 00:25:13,401
I've spoken with um actually a former crewmate of yours, Ricky Arnold, about this, about
the number of astronauts who get vertigo.

358
00:25:13,401 --> 00:25:20,994
Um, you know, th they get out of the hatch and they they look down, they see the earth and
your your brain tells you you're gonna fall.

359
00:25:20,994 --> 00:25:23,705
Uh you're just gonna fall straight to Earth after that.

360
00:25:23,705 --> 00:25:27,973
But um w was it something like that for you or or

361
00:25:27,973 --> 00:25:28,243
like that.

362
00:25:28,243 --> 00:25:34,798
It was just like you know, like being to me, like, you know, if you go to those those
huge, you know, a very tall building where they have the glass floors and you walk out on

363
00:25:34,798 --> 00:25:36,399
that that ledge, right?

364
00:25:36,399 --> 00:25:38,441
It's the same feeling as that kind of idea.

365
00:25:38,441 --> 00:25:39,802
Like this is not safe.

366
00:25:39,802 --> 00:25:42,123
Your brain's telling you, you know, this is not good.

367
00:25:42,123 --> 00:25:44,635
And so you have to just tell you know, no, it's all fine.

368
00:25:44,635 --> 00:25:47,747
You're gonna be good, you know, you have to give that talk to yourself.

369
00:25:48,078 --> 00:25:48,998
yeah, it was pretty interesting.

370
00:25:48,998 --> 00:25:51,450
But then you get back to work and it's all it's good.

371
00:25:52,020 --> 00:25:55,853
you know, it just takes a little while for for you to kind of get through that.

372
00:25:56,164 --> 00:25:56,866
Yeah.

373
00:25:56,866 --> 00:26:01,566
That i it breaks my heart that I will never ever see a shuttle launch in my life.

374
00:26:01,566 --> 00:26:03,250
uh

375
00:26:03,250 --> 00:26:08,074
know the but the the Artemis is not that far off from a shuttle launch.

376
00:26:08,345 --> 00:26:13,401
you know, it's got the solid rocket boosters, a little bigger ones, got four engines
instead of three engines.

377
00:26:13,401 --> 00:26:16,734
So I got to see Artemis two and it was uh it was a fantastic launch.

378
00:26:16,734 --> 00:26:18,886
It it is something you need to go see.

379
00:26:18,886 --> 00:26:21,948
It is a a a wonderful thing to see happen.

380
00:26:22,211 --> 00:26:23,271
Yeah, absolutely.

381
00:26:23,271 --> 00:26:28,854
Uh di did you enjoy uh launch or landing most on the shuttle?

382
00:26:28,971 --> 00:26:29,922
man.

383
00:26:33,046 --> 00:26:35,970
launch is definitely much more dynamic for sure.

384
00:26:35,970 --> 00:26:38,343
I mean you are definitely know you've launched it somewhere.

385
00:26:38,343 --> 00:26:41,436
'Cause that acceleration at the beginning is amazing.

386
00:26:41,436 --> 00:26:44,740
You're thrown back in your seat and you're just going right off the launch pad.

387
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:45,539
So

388
00:26:45,843 --> 00:26:53,201
Luckily, I think to help out, you know, I had tasks to do, you know, uh reading displays,
running the checklist, stuff like that.

389
00:26:53,201 --> 00:26:59,808
So it definitely kept me uh more involved at uh not thinking about a lot of things, but do
doing my job.

390
00:27:00,191 --> 00:27:04,922
But have to so I remember the f you know, the first flight I did, I was definitely really
into that.

391
00:27:04,922 --> 00:27:07,584
Made you know, did not want to make a mistake and all this kind of stuff.

392
00:27:07,584 --> 00:27:11,086
And so I'm trying to, you know, really concentrate on that aspect of it.

393
00:27:11,086 --> 00:27:17,809
And I didn't maybe take in as much as I could of of the uh experience uh that was going
on.

394
00:27:18,089 --> 00:27:20,460
'cause I was really uh and in that aspect.

395
00:27:20,460 --> 00:27:28,294
And what I did realize on that first one though is that during the time the solid rocket
boosters are going, which is two minutes and ten seconds on the the first part of the

396
00:27:28,294 --> 00:27:30,108
flight, is you are

397
00:27:30,108 --> 00:27:32,670
shaken a lot.

398
00:27:32,670 --> 00:27:38,755
And so it's like difficult to read your displays, uh even to find switches sometimes it
would have been difficult.

399
00:27:38,755 --> 00:27:44,023
So we kinda left afterwards that you know, we go through hours and hours of training.

400
00:27:44,023 --> 00:27:49,564
I mean, you know, it's like forty percent of your training flow for a year is doing launch
and entry entry.

401
00:27:49,564 --> 00:27:57,810
And during that launch and with a solar rocket boost on, we couldn't have done half the
things we did in the sim just because you're shaking and you got the acceleration on you.

402
00:27:58,031 --> 00:27:59,992
And it just was I I

403
00:27:59,992 --> 00:28:00,363
I don't know.

404
00:28:00,363 --> 00:28:01,637
It sounded very interesting.

405
00:28:01,637 --> 00:28:06,047
The real world was much, much different than the Sims and on that aspect of it.

406
00:28:06,129 --> 00:28:07,551
but so

407
00:28:08,127 --> 00:28:14,040
On the second time though, I definitely was much uh realizing you know that was coming and
and knew that aspect of it.

408
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:23,994
I kinda when we first launched, I uh so we have uh I have a mirror on my wrist that I can
look out the window above me and see the uh the pad below me aspect of it.

409
00:28:23,994 --> 00:28:27,126
And so I I watched the the whole beginning of it.

410
00:28:27,126 --> 00:28:31,168
You know, we when the water may vapor comes on there and the big cloud comes up and all
that.

411
00:28:31,168 --> 00:28:32,098
I got to watch that.

412
00:28:32,098 --> 00:28:35,570
I watched the engines light and you can see the looks you know, the whole thing going on.

413
00:28:35,570 --> 00:28:37,601
So I watched that for the first like ten seconds.

414
00:28:37,601 --> 00:28:38,031
I watched the

415
00:28:38,031 --> 00:28:42,627
whole launch that way and not uh and then I got back and did my checklist and did stuff
like that.

416
00:28:42,627 --> 00:28:45,100
But it was definitely pretty fun to do that.

417
00:28:45,357 --> 00:28:47,068
Yeah, that's so cool.

418
00:28:47,889 --> 00:28:54,492
Well w an another thing that's that's pretty cool is um you have quite a quick turnaround
to your second flight.

419
00:28:54,642 --> 00:28:58,014
you you flew in two thousand nine, less than two years later.

420
00:28:58,014 --> 00:28:58,982
Um

421
00:28:58,982 --> 00:28:59,303
was there.

422
00:28:59,303 --> 00:29:00,895
Yeah, I lucked out on that one again.

423
00:29:00,895 --> 00:29:03,980
Um I guess I didn't you know didn't screw up or something like that.

424
00:29:03,980 --> 00:29:05,511
So that was good.

425
00:29:06,534 --> 00:29:08,509
So and it was a very similar flight though.

426
00:29:08,509 --> 00:29:11,220
It was a to put on another solar array.

427
00:29:11,327 --> 00:29:18,617
And so uh and I got the it's kind of funny, the the person who was a first time flyer
pilot on my first mission.

428
00:29:18,617 --> 00:29:20,371
Uh we were classmates together.

429
00:29:20,371 --> 00:29:23,032
And then also so we both got upgraded.

430
00:29:23,032 --> 00:29:28,105
He got to be commander and I was lead uh spacewalker or lead EVA for that mission.

431
00:29:28,105 --> 00:29:30,406
And we had four planned EVAs for it.

432
00:29:30,406 --> 00:29:34,078
And so that was fun to do too, um, aspect of it.

433
00:29:34,078 --> 00:29:39,550
So but we did get lucky to get that quick turnaround uh and and go do that.

434
00:29:39,550 --> 00:29:41,261
I think it was partly that because it was a summer.

435
00:29:41,261 --> 00:29:44,699
flight uh and they assigned us to that for that idea.

436
00:29:45,083 --> 00:29:47,590
Yeah, but yeah, we're definitely lucky to get that.

437
00:29:47,590 --> 00:29:48,872
Yeah, it was fun.

438
00:29:48,967 --> 00:29:51,428
It it does read as is almost identical.

439
00:29:51,428 --> 00:29:52,569
It's it's nearly two weeks.

440
00:29:52,569 --> 00:29:53,860
This time it's on Discovery.

441
00:29:53,860 --> 00:29:55,784
You get to do two EVAs again.

442
00:29:55,784 --> 00:29:58,732
Uh solar arrays, the S six truss.

443
00:29:58,732 --> 00:30:05,435
Um and it's really the whole mission seems to be about getting the ISS fully operational
in terms of power.

444
00:30:05,435 --> 00:30:08,967
Um so that the science can really happen.

445
00:30:08,967 --> 00:30:12,442
And I I believe the you know the the analysis says that.

446
00:30:12,442 --> 00:30:13,214
six people.

447
00:30:13,214 --> 00:30:14,998
That was one of the big things too.

448
00:30:14,998 --> 00:30:18,605
So that yeah, yeah, it was a big a big change in the station at that point.

449
00:30:18,863 --> 00:30:20,304
to to have that happen.

450
00:30:20,304 --> 00:30:22,634
And so it was definitely another fun one to be part of.

451
00:30:22,634 --> 00:30:25,316
We had a good time, uh, you know, accomplished the mission.

452
00:30:25,316 --> 00:30:38,742
Um so uh it was we did get uh core cut short, we only got to do we had four EVAs planned,
we got to do three and that was because we had a delay in uh in launch for a few days uh

453
00:30:38,742 --> 00:30:45,246
because of a a you know something on the on the launch pad itself for the connection for
the fuel had a leak in it.

454
00:30:45,246 --> 00:30:48,567
And so but there was also another vehicle coming from Russia.

455
00:30:48,567 --> 00:30:52,060
coming up and so we couldn't stay long enough to do the rest of our mission.

456
00:30:52,060 --> 00:30:54,012
We had to cut our mission a little bit short.

457
00:30:54,012 --> 00:30:57,313
And so we couldn't do the last EVA on that because of that little slip.

458
00:30:57,675 --> 00:30:58,901
So it was still fine though.

459
00:30:58,901 --> 00:31:00,336
We still had a good time.

460
00:31:00,357 --> 00:31:03,469
And you know accomplished it put the uh solar ray.

461
00:31:03,469 --> 00:31:07,314
If you talk to Ricky you probably know all about that EVA putting that solar ray on.

462
00:31:07,314 --> 00:31:08,764
It was it was a fun time.

463
00:31:08,764 --> 00:31:10,244
We really enjoyed that.

464
00:31:10,691 --> 00:31:11,572
Yeah, terrific.

465
00:31:11,572 --> 00:31:17,451
And and one th one other thing about the the mission that was different that that I really
like is it was a night launch.

466
00:31:17,451 --> 00:31:18,813
Or basically a night launch.

467
00:31:18,813 --> 00:31:20,645
So the evening was dark enough.

468
00:31:20,645 --> 00:31:23,809
Um night night launches are wonderful.

469
00:31:24,057 --> 00:31:25,718
Yeah, it was it was good.

470
00:31:25,718 --> 00:31:26,439
So yeah.

471
00:31:26,439 --> 00:31:27,900
I mean, we don't really care.

472
00:31:27,900 --> 00:31:32,523
uh But it was no, it is it is cool.

473
00:31:32,523 --> 00:31:34,004
Uh night launches are great.

474
00:31:34,004 --> 00:31:38,628
Uh so but uh well, it was it was another fun one though, that's for sure.

475
00:31:38,628 --> 00:31:40,249
You know, it was uh

476
00:31:40,932 --> 00:31:45,264
you are you're upgraded yourself to commander for your third mission.

477
00:31:45,264 --> 00:31:47,855
Um commander of the ISS.

478
00:31:47,855 --> 00:31:52,508
This time you're launching on a Soyuz in in twenty fourteen, so th the shuttle has been
retired.

479
00:31:52,508 --> 00:31:55,259
Um what was it like launching on the Soyuz?

480
00:31:55,855 --> 00:31:57,876
it's quite a bit different than the

481
00:31:58,584 --> 00:31:59,994
The s shuttle for sure.

482
00:31:59,994 --> 00:32:02,496
Um, you know, it doesn't have solid rocket boosters.

483
00:32:02,496 --> 00:32:07,297
It's just uh liquid engines and so it doesn't have the same acceleration off the launch
pad.

484
00:32:07,297 --> 00:32:09,298
It is slow off the launch pad.

485
00:32:09,298 --> 00:32:11,539
And so that was a big difference.

486
00:32:11,539 --> 00:32:12,949
I didn't realize that was going on.

487
00:32:12,949 --> 00:32:19,742
Uh or you know, you don't really understand the exact that kind of differences because in
the Sims, you know, you don't have that kind of acceleration at all.

488
00:32:19,742 --> 00:32:22,493
And so uh there was definitely things to it like that.

489
00:32:22,493 --> 00:32:27,175
I think the most interesting or difference F OSO, you know, just being in Kazakhstan,

490
00:32:28,205 --> 00:32:31,176
doing the Russian traditional things they do.

491
00:32:31,176 --> 00:32:38,147
Uh you do whatever Yuri Gagarin did, you know, for uh pre-launch, uh all his traditions he
started.

492
00:32:38,308 --> 00:32:39,868
And I don't think he started on purpose.

493
00:32:39,868 --> 00:32:42,719
It just was everybody followed it afterwards and all that kind of stuff.

494
00:32:42,719 --> 00:32:45,545
So it was just uh to be part of that was really interesting.

495
00:32:45,545 --> 00:32:53,152
I I enjoyed that aspect of it to, you know, see a whole different culture of how they they
do their their launches, uh that aspect of it.

496
00:32:53,152 --> 00:32:57,073
So that was a a really unique experience also to get that side of it.

497
00:32:57,073 --> 00:32:58,313
I like that

498
00:32:58,391 --> 00:33:02,585
thing to see, you know, uh something totally different than our view of how we do it.

499
00:33:02,585 --> 00:33:07,829
You know, we don't really have really traditions too much uh for the shuttle launches and
stuff like that.

500
00:33:07,829 --> 00:33:10,711
So they have so many compared to to what we do.

501
00:33:10,711 --> 00:33:12,913
So it was pretty interesting to see the difference.

502
00:33:13,476 --> 00:33:17,883
Is that being doused by the priest and having to urinate on the wheel?

503
00:33:17,964 --> 00:33:18,812
That sort of thing.

504
00:33:18,812 --> 00:33:20,385
tree in the s uh

505
00:33:20,385 --> 00:33:26,688
You know, like promenade area that uh everybody who's launching a Soyuz or from that
launch pad has planted a tree.

506
00:33:26,688 --> 00:33:28,839
So your yarn's the first tree, right?

507
00:33:28,839 --> 00:33:31,350
And always p you know, going down the whole line there.

508
00:33:31,350 --> 00:33:33,521
And then uh so that's kinda cool.

509
00:33:33,521 --> 00:33:38,153
You do you write your name on the door of the room you slept in the night before launch.

510
00:33:38,153 --> 00:33:43,890
You actually do a a toast with Russian management and your family's there and stuff like
that.

511
00:33:43,890 --> 00:33:46,597
I mean, you know, as in real alcohol.

512
00:33:46,597 --> 00:33:50,272
It was like forget to get on the on the vehicle and you're you're doing a toast.

513
00:33:50,272 --> 00:33:55,426
Uh and then just just all these different things that you do that Yuri did.

514
00:33:55,426 --> 00:33:59,099
Uh I don't know if you've heard about the the movie The White Son of the Desert.

515
00:33:59,099 --> 00:34:03,602
Uh you have to watch that movie because he watched that movie.

516
00:34:03,622 --> 00:34:12,749
And the the story goes, again, I don't know how true all these stories are, but the story
goes that uh since, you know, everybody was doing that, but it's not a great movie.

517
00:34:12,749 --> 00:34:14,811
Uh it's it's a pretty bad movie.

518
00:34:14,811 --> 00:34:20,225
And so somewhere along the line, like back in the eighties or something, uh somebody

519
00:34:20,225 --> 00:34:25,198
or some crew decided not to watch the movie and they perished on f on liftoff.

520
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,541
And so from then on, everybody's guaranteed to watch that movie.

521
00:34:29,541 --> 00:34:31,363
Uh it's part of a deal now.

522
00:34:31,363 --> 00:34:35,165
So there's, I mean just there's tons of these little things that go on that you do.

523
00:34:35,665 --> 00:34:42,660
and you do have to, you know, on the way to launch pad, just before you get there, they
top the vehicle you got to get out and relieve yourself on the tire of the vehicle.

524
00:34:42,660 --> 00:34:49,124
Even though you've done a pressure check in the suit and everything like that, you're
basically taking the suit off and and you know doing that and you're putting it back on

525
00:34:49,124 --> 00:34:49,505
yourself.

526
00:34:49,505 --> 00:34:50,557
It's pretty funny.

527
00:34:50,557 --> 00:34:52,573
But that's you just do that, everything you do.

528
00:34:52,573 --> 00:34:54,447
It was it was definitely interesting to do.

529
00:34:55,013 --> 00:35:02,906
Gosh and what was it like for you preparing to be on the ISS for six months rather than
two weeks?

530
00:35:02,906 --> 00:35:06,241
Uh especially knowing that you're gonna be commander for the last three months.

531
00:35:06,241 --> 00:35:09,686
Um, how did you prepare for that kind of mission?

532
00:35:10,549 --> 00:35:13,370
Yeah, um well you you do a lot of traveling.

533
00:35:13,370 --> 00:35:15,609
First the hardest thing is probably like being away from home, right?

534
00:35:15,609 --> 00:35:16,723
Uh

535
00:35:16,723 --> 00:35:22,195
And you get a lot of practice in that when you're doing this training, because we it's a
two and a half year training flow.

536
00:35:22,455 --> 00:35:29,193
And I was gone for probably a year and a half of that.

537
00:35:29,193 --> 00:35:36,461
And we had to be uh so much time in Japan, so much time in Europe, uh, and a couple of
weeks in Canada.

538
00:35:36,461 --> 00:35:38,842
And like so you end up being a away from home a lot.

539
00:35:38,842 --> 00:35:44,284
And so you get that that idea, we get systems down with the the family, how that's gonna
work out.

540
00:35:45,814 --> 00:35:52,096
But ends up being more than because you have to go to Russia about eight weeks prior to
your launch.

541
00:35:52,457 --> 00:35:59,380
you have the final tests, you have to go through on training and final tests, you get two
weeks off and you get two weeks and and Baikonor.

542
00:35:59,380 --> 00:36:04,342
And so you're you're gone from home for for eight months on that aspect of it.

543
00:36:04,342 --> 00:36:09,524
So it's definitely a a long time away from home uh to d to go through that aspect of it.

544
00:36:09,524 --> 00:36:15,767
Um but you try to get yourself set up the best you can and you know, your communication
lines, stuff like that, you can do with the family.

545
00:36:15,767 --> 00:36:18,791
family and and make sure that they're gonna be all all good.

546
00:36:18,791 --> 00:36:21,684
So that's not gonna be an issue that you have to worry about too much.

547
00:36:21,684 --> 00:36:24,156
So that really to me was the biggest thing.

548
00:36:24,618 --> 00:36:30,404
Besides that though, you have to figure out like you know how you're gonna keep yourself
in good shape because

549
00:36:31,539 --> 00:36:36,311
being in microgravity for that long is not good on your body uh and now that kind of
stuff.

550
00:36:36,311 --> 00:36:38,942
And so you you know, what's your workout plan?

551
00:36:38,942 --> 00:36:40,083
How you gonna go through that?

552
00:36:40,083 --> 00:36:47,096
What's your you know, and that was actually m we know on two week missions, uh, we don't
work out or didn't work out on the shuttle.

553
00:36:47,096 --> 00:36:56,161
And so uh it was something then totally new to get into the the whole workout program on
on the internet, something you do every day, uh while you're on the ISS.

554
00:36:56,161 --> 00:37:01,483
And that was definitely uh you know, I like working out anyway, so it wasn't really that
difficult, but it was just a

555
00:37:01,483 --> 00:37:06,484
different style of it and like that and how to how to figure that out and work that into
your day all the time.

556
00:37:06,504 --> 00:37:12,576
That was they knew schedule it, but it's just little aspects of it that were different
that you had to figure out.

557
00:37:12,576 --> 00:37:22,508
Uh just like anything, it's something new and you and you know, you you learn you train
how to uh do the task, but you don't train like the living side of it as much.

558
00:37:22,508 --> 00:37:23,928
You really just can't do that.

559
00:37:23,928 --> 00:37:26,189
And so you have to figure that out when you get there.

560
00:37:26,561 --> 00:37:31,436
when you you know living there is it's definitely changes different because you know, I
got a it's like camping, right?

561
00:37:31,436 --> 00:37:37,132
And it's going, you know, for a two week camping trip versus, you know, living camping for
six months is a big difference.

562
00:37:37,132 --> 00:37:37,392
Right.

563
00:37:37,392 --> 00:37:45,170
Ca have to change how you do everything 'cause it's it's that way for so long that you
have to uh figure out ways or you know, how you're gonna do everything in that aspect and

564
00:37:45,170 --> 00:37:50,344
keep yourself in in a in a as you know, physically and mentally in a good position.

565
00:37:51,609 --> 00:37:57,048
There there was some very cool science that that I was looking up for Expedition 39 and
40.

566
00:37:57,048 --> 00:38:03,612
Um one thing I wanted to ask you about was it you installed the Veggie project on the ISS.

567
00:38:03,963 --> 00:38:06,626
can you tell us what the Veggie project was?

568
00:38:06,846 --> 00:38:12,050
Well it was the first time NASA had tried to grow I'd say edible food in in space.

569
00:38:12,050 --> 00:38:13,472
That was what it was for.

570
00:38:13,472 --> 00:38:14,973
And so they're trying to figure out how to do that.

571
00:38:14,973 --> 00:38:16,764
And that is not an easy problem.

572
00:38:16,764 --> 00:38:21,439
How do you do the soil, how do you do the nutrients, how do you water it, all that kind of
stuff.

573
00:38:21,439 --> 00:38:32,628
And so um that came up and uh I got assigned to that uh that that task and it ended up
being, you know, really fun to do work on, I th I felt.

574
00:38:33,441 --> 00:38:35,422
Yeah, I didn't really know what to expect with it at all.

575
00:38:35,422 --> 00:38:42,928
I didn't know much about it because you know the thing about start off with science,
there's you know, over hundreds of experiments going on on there, and you get a little

576
00:38:42,928 --> 00:38:45,350
half hour brief on each experiment before you go.

577
00:38:45,350 --> 00:38:47,312
And it's starting like a year before your flight.

578
00:38:47,312 --> 00:38:53,376
And so you don't remember hardly anything about these half hour briefs, and 'cause you get
so many of them, you got other things going on.

579
00:38:53,376 --> 00:38:59,100
And so y it was you kind of have to relearn again when you get up there and you're gonna
work on something, you have to kind of figure it out.

580
00:38:59,321 --> 00:39:00,301
And so

581
00:39:01,715 --> 00:39:08,779
I got there and we and you had to put it together and the idea they had to come up with a
system of these uh call them like

582
00:39:08,779 --> 00:39:19,914
pods but they're little packets where the soil I would call it soil is like little beads
of nutrients uh in there with a seed in there and the idea is you put them in there they

583
00:39:19,914 --> 00:39:29,379
have a little slit on top where the plant's gonna come out of and so you have then a
facility that has lights in it, keeps it all contained uh and that aspect of it and these

584
00:39:29,379 --> 00:39:38,453
pods and then a system that was supposedly the idea was it it had tubes running into the
bottom of these uh packets that had a membrane that would soak up the water and keep

585
00:39:38,453 --> 00:39:38,706
water.

586
00:39:38,706 --> 00:39:39,537
going into that.

587
00:39:39,537 --> 00:39:43,850
Oh that ended up not working out the watering system we found out.

588
00:39:43,850 --> 00:39:45,061
So was not doing that.

589
00:39:45,061 --> 00:39:50,425
So I had to manually um water them every day and and do that.

590
00:39:50,425 --> 00:39:51,726
And and so it was fine.

591
00:39:51,726 --> 00:40:01,754
But it was just it was actually kind of interesting to grow something and ended up being
uh I got, you know, more I say kind of into it because I had to check on them every day

592
00:40:01,754 --> 00:40:05,176
and water them every day and do these different things, clean it out.

593
00:40:05,176 --> 00:40:08,589
And so every, you I get up in the morning and see how the plants were doing, you know.

594
00:40:08,589 --> 00:40:12,244
who gr what how grow how big they got today, you know, are they growing still or not?

595
00:40:12,244 --> 00:40:13,486
Is this one having trouble?

596
00:40:13,486 --> 00:40:21,536
And so it kind of be more of a, you know, you get kinda invested into this whole thing and
helping them actually succeed in that aspect of it.

597
00:40:22,147 --> 00:40:31,185
Yeah, Michael Fowles said something very similar about his mission on Mir, um, just how
engrossed he got in the the gardening and the plants and the seeds he was doing.

598
00:40:31,185 --> 00:40:32,097
Do you do you know

599
00:40:32,097 --> 00:40:33,057
gonna get that into it.

600
00:40:33,057 --> 00:40:37,357
I ended up getting totally, you know, caring about and all that kind of stuff, making sure
they did well.

601
00:40:37,357 --> 00:40:39,691
uh So

602
00:40:39,984 --> 00:40:43,753
Uh do you know if they were were they harvested and eaten on the ISS?

603
00:40:43,753 --> 00:40:45,045
No, so we harvested them.

604
00:40:45,045 --> 00:40:46,975
Uh well that's a good story.

605
00:40:48,059 --> 00:40:52,413
we were not allowed to eat them uh because

606
00:40:52,413 --> 00:40:57,395
They uh didn't know if what kind of microbes they had on That was a story they told us.

607
00:40:57,505 --> 00:41:01,147
they said, Hey, you know, we want to check out 'cause we don't know what they're gonna be
like.

608
00:41:01,147 --> 00:41:04,018
They could have something else, uh they might not be safe for you.

609
00:41:04,018 --> 00:41:07,760
Uh however, uh, you know, we saw this literally good.

610
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,342
It romaine lettuce we were growing, and we hadn't had fresh food in, you know, like four
months.

611
00:41:12,342 --> 00:41:15,674
And so it was like, hm, I wonder how this would taste.

612
00:41:15,674 --> 00:41:19,846
And so I have to admit, we did eat a little bit of it as you're picking it up, you know.

613
00:41:19,846 --> 00:41:22,337
You had to package it up in this certain way for

614
00:41:22,337 --> 00:41:26,029
them to send back down to earth so they could, you know, study it all.

615
00:41:26,189 --> 00:41:29,991
but yeah, we definitely tried a little bit of it just to make sure it was okay.

616
00:41:29,991 --> 00:41:31,239
And it was fine.

617
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,153
It was actually tasted really good.

618
00:41:34,073 --> 00:41:35,313
Yeah, amazing.

619
00:41:36,364 --> 00:41:48,942
the the mobile servicing system was another thing I wanted to ask you about on Expedition
forty, which I can't imagine is too popular with astronauts who like doing EVAs because

620
00:41:48,942 --> 00:41:53,154
it's sort of uh the robot doing the EVA instead of you.

621
00:41:53,154 --> 00:41:53,754
But

622
00:41:53,962 --> 00:41:55,114
yeah, yeah.

623
00:41:55,158 --> 00:42:02,951
I mean w i there's pros and cons to everything and and you know, we would like to do more,
of course, but it takes away from the science is really what it boils down to.

624
00:42:02,951 --> 00:42:10,725
'Cause the EVA, not only do the the time in the EVA, uh it's the time setting up for the
EVA is a lot of hours.

625
00:42:10,725 --> 00:42:13,626
And so you're taking away from a lot of science opportunities.

626
00:42:13,626 --> 00:42:15,587
And so I understand that aspect of it.

627
00:42:15,587 --> 00:42:23,464
And and also while we were there on thirty nine forty, we had to do a lot the suits were
down for a while.

628
00:42:23,464 --> 00:42:25,091
I don't know if you know this this

629
00:42:25,091 --> 00:42:26,171
spacesuits.

630
00:42:26,382 --> 00:42:31,234
j I don't know if you remember you probably heard the Luca Parmatama story about the water
on the helmet.

631
00:42:31,355 --> 00:42:32,175
Right?

632
00:42:32,175 --> 00:42:34,777
So that was just before us getting there.

633
00:42:35,016 --> 00:42:35,678
Wow.

634
00:42:35,678 --> 00:42:36,266
Okay.

635
00:42:36,266 --> 00:42:40,168
they determined what the issue was with the suits.

636
00:42:40,329 --> 00:42:51,456
And what there is is there is a a fan pump separator in the suit, which is like one
electric motor that does the airflow, water flow uh to the suit.

637
00:42:51,456 --> 00:42:56,520
So we need airflow, of course, to keep uh CO2 from building up in the suit for cooling.

638
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,541
We also have a water flow for cooling in the suit, also.

639
00:42:59,662 --> 00:43:02,864
And so that's all drawn by this one pump.

640
00:43:03,064 --> 00:43:04,405
And uh

641
00:43:04,713 --> 00:43:16,801
there was an issue that some of the the ports got plugged in the this pump that then
caused the water to go into the air side is what happened.

642
00:43:16,801 --> 00:43:19,082
And so we had to change them all out.

643
00:43:19,303 --> 00:43:23,926
And uh they were not meant to be changed out in space, uh, but we had to do it.

644
00:43:23,926 --> 00:43:27,608
There was no choice if we ever wanted to do another spacewalk again.

645
00:43:27,608 --> 00:43:28,428
So

646
00:43:28,853 --> 00:43:30,614
And I ended up doing uh four of these.

647
00:43:30,614 --> 00:43:37,977
Uh more that so we take the you have to take pretty much the backpack of the suit and take
it apart and pull these things out.

648
00:43:37,977 --> 00:43:46,633
And it was vr 'cause since they weren't meant to be done in space when they had originally
put them in, um, they weren't really documented of how it was done.

649
00:43:46,633 --> 00:43:51,834
It was uh it was like these experts down on uh you know, the ground had done it mm many
times.

650
00:43:51,834 --> 00:43:55,726
They were they knew how to do it, but it was not really well documented at all.

651
00:43:55,726 --> 00:43:59,093
And what they had done though is to uh

652
00:43:59,221 --> 00:44:06,051
lineup since it's basically, you know, electric motor with a shaft, you wanna make sure
that that is lined up perfectly so it doesn't have any wobble in it.

653
00:44:06,051 --> 00:44:07,255
Uh right.

654
00:44:07,255 --> 00:44:09,186
uh to create any vibrations.

655
00:44:09,226 --> 00:44:15,649
And so they had shimmed it with the washers to make get this alignment right with long
screws in it.

656
00:44:15,649 --> 00:44:22,265
And the problem we had is that when you took it out, uh these bunch of washers, we didn't
know how many or where they all were.

657
00:44:22,265 --> 00:44:31,887
Um, but you had to make sure that you didn't lose any of them uh into the back of the suit
because then there would be a FOD or foreign object debris in the suit and that makes the

658
00:44:31,887 --> 00:44:33,057
suit no go.

659
00:44:33,057 --> 00:44:37,199
So you had to make sure you got every one of these and you talk and you really can't see
all the way in there.

660
00:44:37,199 --> 00:44:42,162
Because you're working in this area where there's just like an opening, you're trying to,
you know, your hands can't even fit in there.

661
00:44:42,162 --> 00:44:50,618
So we had to come up with ways to, like we had a vacuum, uh, which we put a shirt on the
on the end of the hose to catch things, and we'd try to catch all these as they were

662
00:44:50,618 --> 00:44:52,559
going, as they come out and stuff like that.

663
00:44:52,559 --> 00:44:59,074
But it worked out, but it was just a a difficult process to get these things changed out
and the suits all up on an operational.

664
00:44:59,074 --> 00:45:00,435
So we had that issue.

665
00:45:00,435 --> 00:45:01,225
So it's kind of nice.

666
00:45:01,225 --> 00:45:07,119
So I so my first baseball, I did I on or the only one I guess I did on 3940, because we're
gonna do more.

667
00:45:07,119 --> 00:45:10,344
What didn't happen um was I after we fixed these suits.

668
00:45:10,344 --> 00:45:16,996
So uh I fixed them and then had to go put on and go outside and test and make sure they
worked on that space block.

669
00:45:16,996 --> 00:45:17,677
But it was good.

670
00:45:17,677 --> 00:45:20,500
It was it was uh they were uh

671
00:45:20,927 --> 00:45:24,498
It was a fun task to to accomplish and got the suits back up and operational.

672
00:45:24,498 --> 00:45:32,381
And then near the we were supposed to do another one, uh, but then the a battery on Earth
uh had an issue.

673
00:45:32,541 --> 00:45:36,857
And so then they downed the suits again because of the batteries until we got new
batteries on board.

674
00:45:36,857 --> 00:45:39,604
So it was just like uh things like that can always happen to you.

675
00:45:39,604 --> 00:45:43,545
Even though you have things planned like that, something can happen and you don't get to
do it.

676
00:45:45,022 --> 00:45:46,996
I I

677
00:45:47,780 --> 00:45:57,224
was amazed listening to Ricky and and I'm always amazed listening to astronauts talk about
the the extent of the scientific research going on on the ISS.

678
00:45:57,224 --> 00:46:05,528
And it's it really is a tragedy that people don't quite realize just how much the science
on the ISS has changed their lives down on Earth.

679
00:46:05,528 --> 00:46:13,221
Um and I loved listening to you last month talk about um some of the science experiments
you were involved with on the ISS.

680
00:46:13,221 --> 00:46:17,653
So I just wondered if you could share some highlights of some of the science you got to do

681
00:46:17,653 --> 00:46:21,707
Yeah, there was right as you point out there is just tons of different things going on.

682
00:46:21,707 --> 00:46:29,897
and it goes from like just learning like basic physics and science, you know, about things
to really specific things, you know

683
00:46:29,973 --> 00:46:32,654
Man, yeah, we did so many different things.

684
00:46:32,654 --> 00:46:36,316
And first, you know, the human body is one of the things we do for sure on.

685
00:46:36,316 --> 00:46:41,578
And that is uh really interesting to find out what happens to the human body in this
microgravity environment.

686
00:46:41,578 --> 00:46:43,990
And it ends up being it's like growing old quickly.

687
00:46:43,990 --> 00:46:50,232
Uh we get, you know, muscle loss, bone loss, immune system issues, cardiovascular issues,
eyesight issues.

688
00:46:50,232 --> 00:46:53,724
Uh it's just like all these things that happen when you grow old.

689
00:46:53,724 --> 00:46:59,887
And so you can do a lot of tests on that and figure out how to to slow that process down
or mitigate the process or how

690
00:46:59,887 --> 00:47:03,948
Helped we people get through the process the best they can, all that.

691
00:47:03,948 --> 00:47:06,259
And that can help, you know, astronauts and people back on Earth.

692
00:47:06,259 --> 00:47:10,890
And then you got just the uh the actual physics of things.

693
00:47:11,170 --> 00:47:16,471
you know, got the alpha, we don't really work with it, but the alpha magnetic spectrometer
looking for dark energy out there.

694
00:47:16,471 --> 00:47:18,347
That's a that's a really to me a cool thing.

695
00:47:18,347 --> 00:47:23,413
Uh that's just sitting on the edge of station uh trying to, you know, measure that aspect
of it.

696
00:47:23,473 --> 00:47:24,633
But for us,

697
00:47:25,321 --> 00:47:33,426
there was uh the things you do f you know, from how different things, you know, different
not only you say we grow our own food, but that we do many experiments on just plant

698
00:47:33,426 --> 00:47:36,428
growth to see uh why things are the way they are.

699
00:47:36,428 --> 00:47:46,074
Why do, you know, and what are the genes that actually control different aspects of like
why do uh roots grow this way and not this way and all that kind of stuff.

700
00:47:46,074 --> 00:47:47,235
We've done those.

701
00:47:47,235 --> 00:47:51,050
You got the protein crystal growth, which is, you know, how to really

702
00:47:51,050 --> 00:47:53,902
make better better medicines uh aspect.

703
00:47:53,902 --> 00:47:57,414
It just it just goes on and on for that spec stuff.

704
00:47:57,414 --> 00:48:08,871
So this to me the science is cool, but you also gotta remember to me being an engineer, I
think all the engineering things that have changed because of uh space flight, the the the

705
00:48:08,871 --> 00:48:09,493
the

706
00:48:09,493 --> 00:48:14,404
the new things we've had in our life because of space flight is also an amazing aspect.

707
00:48:14,404 --> 00:48:20,938
It's not just a science in that aspect, it's the new things that have been invented for
space flight that we use every day in our world.

708
00:48:20,938 --> 00:48:24,040
Like I don't know if you guys, you know, have the cordless drill, right?

709
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,061
That you use around the house.

710
00:48:26,061 --> 00:48:28,557
you know, everybody pretty much everyone has one in their garage now.

711
00:48:28,557 --> 00:48:30,623
Well that was started from the Hubble flights.

712
00:48:30,623 --> 00:48:33,024
The first spacewalks they had to have one of those.

713
00:48:33,024 --> 00:48:35,205
And so they came up with a cordless drill.

714
00:48:35,705 --> 00:48:38,086
And you know, I mean it may probably would have come up anyway, right?

715
00:48:38,086 --> 00:48:39,497
But that was where that first

716
00:48:39,497 --> 00:48:41,048
original one came from.

717
00:48:41,048 --> 00:48:48,775
And so there's just tons of things like that that you go on that we have that came from
the space program that we use every day in our life.

718
00:48:48,775 --> 00:48:51,557
And I think that's something that is definitely missed out on.

719
00:48:51,557 --> 00:48:56,161
And people really realize that the there's a lot of return on your investment in that
money.

720
00:48:57,913 --> 00:49:07,611
You you retired um the year following your m last mission, uh in in twenty fifteen, to
take a job at Boise State University.

721
00:49:07,611 --> 00:49:11,434
Um but your work still has some connection with NASA, doesn't it?

722
00:49:11,434 --> 00:49:15,487
Regarding um s uh space suit user interface technologies.

723
00:49:15,487 --> 00:49:17,919
Could you tell us about that kind of work you're doing?

724
00:49:17,919 --> 00:49:26,128
I do at Boise State is I of course work with students and we do NASA challenges is the I
guess my main job I'll say.

725
00:49:26,189 --> 00:49:36,352
And what that is is NASA puts out challenges really for prototypes for university students
to get together and create a team and then to uh

726
00:49:36,352 --> 00:49:39,926
write a proposal on what your idea for this prototype would be.

727
00:49:39,926 --> 00:49:45,671
And if that gets accepted, then you a you build it and you test it at one of the NASA
centers.

728
00:49:45,692 --> 00:49:49,216
And so it's a pretty much a year-long project for the students to do.

729
00:49:49,216 --> 00:49:50,827
And so we get teams to do those things.

730
00:49:50,827 --> 00:49:53,019
I have three of those different uh teams right now.

731
00:49:53,019 --> 00:49:59,586
Uh one is on tools for using during spacewalk.

732
00:49:59,660 --> 00:50:03,472
They they always looking for new different tools for different applications.

733
00:50:03,472 --> 00:50:06,563
And also we're doing uh lunar stuff now too.

734
00:50:06,563 --> 00:50:09,050
so that's kind of fun to throw in the lunar aspect of it.

735
00:50:09,050 --> 00:50:15,997
Uh same with then the next one is informatic system or basically a heads-up display that
would you put in a spacesuit.

736
00:50:16,037 --> 00:50:18,118
So you all the different things you could show on that.

737
00:50:18,118 --> 00:50:28,483
Uh not only do we now have a heads-up display though, we have a an arm pad with this
display on the arm with a keyboard on that, so they can control different things with that

738
00:50:28,483 --> 00:50:29,583
aspect of it.

739
00:50:29,583 --> 00:50:35,866
So they're trying to figure out what the optimum way is to use all these kind of new
technologies in this aspect.

740
00:50:35,866 --> 00:50:38,388
And it's kind of fun to work on that for sure.

741
00:50:38,388 --> 00:50:46,210
And the last one is doing lunar robotics, where they're looking for an autonomous vehicle
to be able to do work on the moon.

742
00:50:46,632 --> 00:50:50,554
really they they're the for their prototype, they're looking for one to make a berm.

743
00:50:50,554 --> 00:50:57,137
And the idea behind that is when vehicles land on the moon, it's gonna create a lot of
dust coming up from the regolith.

744
00:50:57,649 --> 00:51:00,290
And uh so they wanna try to minimize that.

745
00:51:00,290 --> 00:51:08,303
If they can have a robot build a berm around where the landing site's gonna be, and then
it would keep the dust from flying on all the habitats and all the you know, your solar

746
00:51:08,303 --> 00:51:10,894
rays, et cetera, out there to keep the dust off it.

747
00:51:10,894 --> 00:51:11,995
So that's kind of fun.

748
00:51:11,995 --> 00:51:20,748
There and students it gives them a great opportunity to really apply the skills that they
have and learn new skills, you know, working on teams, that aspect of it.

749
00:51:20,748 --> 00:51:27,715
And it's it's and NASA is a great motivator for them to be able to go and test their
products at NASA is just a fantastic thing.

750
00:51:28,359 --> 00:51:29,630
That's absolutely amazing.

751
00:51:29,630 --> 00:51:32,533
Uh w we're at a quite an interesting time at the moment.

752
00:51:32,533 --> 00:51:34,825
You m talked about Artemis II earlier.

753
00:51:34,825 --> 00:51:40,670
Uh what are your hopes for the the near future for the space industry?

754
00:51:40,897 --> 00:51:41,816
Yeah.

755
00:51:41,926 --> 00:51:46,666
Um, well definitely, you know, the Artemis missions uh I think they're gonna go strong.

756
00:51:46,666 --> 00:51:47,709
I like to see that.

757
00:51:47,709 --> 00:51:54,912
Um but you know, but also, you know, they got the commercial side uh of space, you know,
SpaceX, Blue Origin, et cetera.

758
00:51:54,912 --> 00:51:56,762
I think that that has a lot of opportunity there.

759
00:51:56,762 --> 00:52:03,676
And I'm hoping that soon there's multiple companies who are working at doing a replacement
to the ISS.

760
00:52:03,676 --> 00:52:05,977
It's gonna be a commercial side.

761
00:52:05,977 --> 00:52:12,169
So there'll be a commercial company that would actually run that aspect of it, leaving
then NASA to do more of the

762
00:52:12,209 --> 00:52:15,902
moon and Mars objectives on that kind of stuff.

763
00:52:15,902 --> 00:52:19,704
So hopefully that takes off and you start going and getting that better.

764
00:52:19,704 --> 00:52:24,568
I do like the position that uh at least NASA has done with the commercial side.

765
00:52:24,568 --> 00:52:30,692
I think they've done a good job of creating the contracts that are beneficial for both
NASA and for the commercial side.

766
00:52:30,692 --> 00:52:40,778
And so that helps that's why the growth has done I think so well lately in that race realm
is because the way they have set that up and uh and it's going to continue to grow and I

767
00:52:40,778 --> 00:52:41,679
think going to be serious

768
00:52:41,679 --> 00:52:44,923
You're looking at a really a great time for space exploration.

769
00:52:44,923 --> 00:52:49,267
I think in the next, you know, twenty, thirty years, it's gonna really uh have some great
changes.

770
00:52:49,267 --> 00:52:51,950
So I'm definitely looking forward to watching all that.

771
00:52:51,950 --> 00:52:54,812
Wish I could be part of it, but that's that those days are gone.

772
00:52:56,665 --> 00:52:57,655
Thank you so much.

773
00:52:57,655 --> 00:53:02,898
I if people want to find out more about you and your work and your research, where should
they go?

774
00:53:03,855 --> 00:53:09,710
man, I got I gotta I do have a website uh but uh Steve Swanson like astronaut.

775
00:53:09,710 --> 00:53:19,478
But you know, that's about the only place you know, the online there's stuff on there's a
wiki page, all that kind stuff, but you know uh I don't really I you know, I don't even

776
00:53:19,478 --> 00:53:20,399
have a Twitter account.

777
00:53:20,399 --> 00:53:21,780
I don't do that.

778
00:53:21,780 --> 00:53:28,206
Just to let you know, so I uh I I do have the first Instagram from space as a you know, a
claim to fame.

779
00:53:28,206 --> 00:53:32,405
But it was I did it from the I I I I uh

780
00:53:32,455 --> 00:53:42,928
I I created the ISS account because I did not want to have my own uh I thought it was uh
should be it's more important to me to be about the program and about the ISS and about

781
00:53:42,928 --> 00:53:43,168
me.

782
00:53:43,168 --> 00:53:51,550
So I started the ISS account and so I did everything the all my thing I I did post and if
stuff on the ISS was to the ISS account.

783
00:53:51,550 --> 00:53:54,201
And and that's still going on, which I'm pretty happy about.

784
00:53:54,201 --> 00:54:00,193
So I think that's if you want to learn more about the space stuff, go to the ISS Instagram
account.

785
00:54:01,337 --> 00:54:01,847
Brilliant.

786
00:54:01,847 --> 00:54:02,598
Thank you so much.

787
00:54:02,598 --> 00:54:07,524
It's been s really amazing talking to you about your career and thank you so much for
everything you've done.

788
00:54:07,544 --> 00:54:13,231
And um I look forward to seeing more of of your work at Boise State and at NASA over the
coming years.

789
00:54:13,437 --> 00:54:14,423
Thank you very much.

790
00:54:14,423 --> 00:54:15,434
Take care.